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View Full Version : There IS a market for a mixed breed stallion?



Heinz 57
Oct. 18, 2011, 04:06 PM
Just curious, as there is a farm local to me that is standing a few stallions, including a champagne-colored 3/4 Friesian, 1/4 Saddlebred. He's not under saddle yet to my knowledge, and is by their own full FHANA stallion who has no performance record yet either (I believe he's only 5, himself). I don't know for sure, but would believe the mare has no performance record either.

:confused:

Am I missing something? Aside from the 'pretty color with lots of hair' aspect?

CosMonster
Oct. 18, 2011, 04:15 PM
Sadly, just because it's all about the hair and color doesn't mean there isn't a market for him. There are a lot of mare owners who shouldn't be breeding their horses too after all.

rizzodm
Oct. 18, 2011, 04:15 PM
Maybe for those who like a Heinz 57 mix:winkgrin:
My trainer has a very nice Lusitano Stallion and she is her best customer. She maybe bred two outside mares last year, the rest were her own. This year she is not even going to breed her own.

CatPS
Oct. 18, 2011, 04:25 PM
They are calling those "Georgian Grandes." Some of those Friesian/Saddlebred crosses come out as really nice horses, though the lack of performance record in this instance would make me skeptical.

netg
Oct. 18, 2011, 04:59 PM
I was thinking Friesian Sporthorse, too.


What are warmbloods but a mixture of horses with various traits to get the desired traits? While I personally wouldn't choose to breed Friesian crosses, I've known some from careful breeders who were quite nice. I've heard that typically the second generation of a cross is nicer than the first - so that's a reason if you like the quality which results from such a pairing to breed for it.


I think breeding a 5 year old stallion with no performance record is completely silly, regardless of how high quality he may or may not be, of any type. If you're breeding your own horses so he will have offspring old enough to compare quality in when he has the record, that's different, though still not something I like to see, personally.


(That said... we have a Friesian cross who is wonderful as my mom's trail horse and a fun play project for me, and her Friesian sire is nice... but her dam shouldn't have been bred to anything IMHO.)

Airfern
Oct. 18, 2011, 05:00 PM
FHANA and FPS have strict standards when approving a stallion. Their stallion may be registered with FHANA but it most probably not approved for breeding.
Additionally FPS and Fhana do not allow cross breeding from their approved stallions. FPZV will allow crosses.
I think there will always be a market for a "horse of a different color" (with hair) just like there is for designer dogs (labradoodles, puggles). What kills me is that they are often being offered for sale for as much as a pure bred horse with performance records.

Heinz 57
Oct. 18, 2011, 05:12 PM
FHANA and FPS have strict standards when approving a stallion. Their stallion may be registered with FHANA but it most probably not approved for breeding.


From the website:
Full papered Stallion Candidate stam 50, 2nd premium, GRAND CHAMPION COLT will be presented for stallion at age 5.

That is, of course, the fullblood, not the 3/4.

Airfern
Oct. 18, 2011, 07:29 PM
Stallions registered in the Foal Book which are age 3 or older may be presented as candidates for the Central Stallion Proving for Studbook Stallions

Presented and approved are two different things.

So even thought they are presenting their 5 year old FHANA stallion this does not mean it has been approved for studbook. If it were, then it would be given a Provisional Approval for Breeding which by FHANA rules means no cross breeding.

I could not find any rules for breeding of the colt prior to being presented for stallion testing or if it would disqualify him. Maybe this is a loophole for crossbreeding without a penality if you breed prior to being approved.

siegi b.
Oct. 18, 2011, 07:48 PM
There is hardly a market for full-papered stallions with performance records, so my answer would be no..... But then I guess if all you're going to do is keep the stallion in his little run and not compete him, any additional breeding fee is gravy???

silvia
Oct. 18, 2011, 07:49 PM
Saddlebreds are one breed judged on their performance and not their colour; ie they are not discriminated against just because they are palomino, pinto or champage. Coloured horses have never been 'weeded out' due to fashions of the times, suspicion of their breeding, belief they are somehow deformed etc.

That means that there are many horses of colour in the breed that have excellent performance in their parents, in themselves, or both. Unlike TB for example or Friesian.

I find the comments on this thread a little bit sad and symptomatic of what happens when colour becomes popular and people start trying to get it into their breeds willy nilly, and the results are not great, and then people view ALL breeds and crosses with the same jaundiced eyes. Understandable, but sad.

ACP
Oct. 18, 2011, 08:46 PM
I am always amazed at the people who think that a pretty colored horse is better than a plain bay. Pretty and better are not synonyms.

smokygirl
Oct. 19, 2011, 02:23 AM
But sometimes they are just as nice. Just because a horse is a "dilute" color, doesn't mean they aren't nice either.

Heinz 57
Oct. 19, 2011, 02:49 AM
I don't care what color it is, and that wasn't really the point of my question. It could be pink with purple polka dots and blue zebra stripes and I'm still going to wonder the desire to breed if it's an unproven mutt.

silvia
Oct. 19, 2011, 04:33 AM
By the same reasoning many Warmbloods are mutts as well, with the amount of stallions around out of TB or TB bred mares.

But to answer your question, yes there is a market for Georgian Grandes. They are popular for riders who do not want to deal with Warmbloods.

Assessments would be important but less crucial for this department; attitude and amateur friendly are, I feel, not so well assessed in tests geared towards high performance and professional riders.

Ridden performance would be helpful, but to be honest any horse can do well at lower levels, it wouldn't really 'prove' anything apart from being suitable as a riding horse. And of course, genetics pass on regardless of performance.

I think there are people paralysed by figures on sheets. It is not too difficult to step back and have a look at the horse and decide if it is what you want.

graustarkian
Oct. 19, 2011, 05:14 AM
I sure hope so. My best dressage horse EVER was an Arabian/Standardbred mare. GO FIGURE!

CosMonster
Oct. 19, 2011, 10:58 AM
I'm not against pretty colored hoses (quite fond of them actually :D) or mixed breed stallions. I'm considering breeding a half Arabian mare I own if she performs as well as I think she might.

But the OP said he's a mixed breed stallion of a notoriously faddish breed (as in, quite popular right now and a lot of ignorant breeders, not that the breed itself is bad) with a pretty color. If his sire is only 5 tops, then he's very young as well, and according to the OP it's very unlikely that either one has a performance record.

So yeah, I'm pretty sad that there will most likely be people who want to breed their mares to him. But it isn't because he isn't purebred or because he's a fancy color. It's because it sends up all the red flags of krazy kolor breeding as I believe it's often called. ;)

horsefaerie
Oct. 19, 2011, 11:18 AM
Good Grief! What a thread to wake up to.

I am not sure there is a market for anything right now. Period.

Performance records do not mean anything to me. I have certainly come across numerous animals whose parentage was fabulous and they have no mind and little else going for them. Someone got good money for them just because.

I like pretty. So what? If you can have pretty with a good mind and rideabilty what do you care? THEY were ALL mutts not too long ago.

If someone does NOT breed outside the cliques the gene pool will stagnate. Not saying you should breed to Billy Bobs racking horse, but this guy sounds fine to me and you just might get some WOW factor as well.

Then too, maybe YOUR horse will be the fantastic performance horse that will prove the stallion to be worthwhile.

Rich does NOT coincide with intelligence and knowledge. Not everyone can afford the money especially in this economy to market their horses and their offspring. Doesn't mean the animals are less than anything else. Marketing companies would not exist if marketing did not work.

It is called "dazzle".

Heinz 57
Oct. 19, 2011, 12:18 PM
Performance records do not mean anything to me.
I like pretty. So what? If you can have pretty with a good mind and rideabilty what do you care?

Mutt that produces great conformation, soundness, and talent? Sign me up. Pretty color on top of that? Even better. Let's put him with my black bay sabino and see what he produces (did I mention the 1/2 SB dam was a pinto?).

He's 3. Unbroken. Only basic groundwork. Good mind, rideability, soundness, etc. are all totally unknown at this point. The only 'known' is "dazzle", as you put it. Not sure what the money/marketing comments are related to, obviously this lady has plenty of money if she's got multiple stallions AND dozens of their offspring in training.

I'm not opposed to crosses, or Saddlebreds, at all. In fact, I almost bought a pretty buckskin SB/TB filly a few years ago when a local breeder was liquidating - nice mover, OK conformation, but mechanically messed up in one front leg; she stood straight but at the walk and trot toed out on one leg and the fetlock joint would rotate/swing inwards with each step. Breeder feigned ignorance and when asked whether the filly had moved that way since birth or if it was recent/injury/shoeing related, said she really hadn't noticed. :confused:

amm2cd
Oct. 19, 2011, 12:31 PM
Even if I had a compatible mare... I still wouldnt do it.

With all of the proven stallions out there, I don't see the risk as worth it. I know, all breeding is a risk. I could breed to an international star and end up with a dud. However, I could breed to this guy and end up with a dud. At least the dud with good breeding still has something going for him.

Pass.

(Oh, and my current show horse is a flashy QH, so it's not that I hate colorful horses or off breeds).

horsefaerie
Oct. 19, 2011, 12:45 PM
[QUOTE] At least the dud with good breeding still has something going for him. /QUOTE]

That is my point. NO, it does not. It is just, as a rule, an expensive dud.

CosMonster
Oct. 19, 2011, 01:01 PM
Yes, there are expensive purebred "duds," but careful breeding (and that's more than just breeding any old two purebreds together) lessens that chance. It also ups the odds that your "dud" will be someone else's gem, such as a horse was bred to be jumper but wasn't great at it doing well in the dressage ring. Of course flukes can happen but breeding a known lineage minimizes that. And while there's no guarantee that any given horse with a good performance record will pass that down, it is more likely that a horse with a performance record, who has parents who have performance records, who have parents who have performance records, etc. will pass that down.

There's nothing wrong with pretty. I'd venture a guess that most people actually really like flashy horses. ;) But you can't ride the color, or the head, or the hair. There has to be more than just "dazzle."

When I walk through the feedlot I see plenty of flashy horses with bad conformation on their way to Mexico. Breeders need to be careful that they are producing the most talented horse they can as well as the prettiest.

mbm
Oct. 19, 2011, 01:09 PM
wow. i suggest you all take a deep breath and then spend some time out in the real world.

not everyone breeds wbs and not all breeds require performance testing etc.

while i do support performance TESTING, young stallions need to start somewhere, etc.

sometimes i am really floored by the high and mighty-ness of the folks on eh dressage boards.....

shawneeAcres
Oct. 19, 2011, 01:18 PM
I have a "colored" stallion, an appaloosa that is a 100% appaloosa color producer. He has not been bred for the past three years due to us working on our farm that we purchased four years ago and due to the economy. I do plan to breed one of my own mares next year. All of his foals were "easy" sells, and have had people iquiring this year if I have any foals/pffspring for sale, but do not. I did purchase him because 1) he is a true sporthorse type and a registered appaloosa, which is somewhat hard to find 2) he is excellent mover and GREAT disposition and 3) he is a 100% color producer. The color was important to me so that people seeing his offspring would KNOW they are appaloosas! Altho I could geld him, there is really no reason to, he is the calmest, easiest going stallion I have ever known (and have had some pretty easy going stallions!). Noone EVER even guesses he is a stallion at shows. Altho its about the "color", it's MORE about what he has to offer as an appaloosa sport horse!

At a combined test last weekend where he scored three 9's in his dressage test!

http://pets.webshots.com/album/581553471GAwFtK

amm2cd
Oct. 19, 2011, 01:21 PM
[QUOTE] At least the dud with good breeding still has something going for him. /QUOTE]

That is my point. NO, it does not. It is just, as a rule, an expensive dud.

But that proves that the expensive dud has value to someone willing to buy the breeding if not the talent. Let's face it, brand names sell-which is what breeders are trying to do. Sell foals.

Two foals of equal talent, one being By Known Sire out of EM Talented is going to be more attractive to the average person than By Accident out of The Pasture. ;)

And MBM, i know not all breeds require performance testing (pity, really). But a performance record is not performance testing. No one would pay the money for a cutting horse sire who doesnt have a record as a cutting horse, doesnt have any offspring as cutting horses,and has few cutting horses way back there in his pedigree. Breeding is playing the odds. Some people are better at math (and a little lucky) than others.

mbm
Oct. 19, 2011, 01:32 PM
lets just say that i agree with the idea of performance testing, but think that the way this thread was presented is in pretty bad taste.

horsefaerie
Oct. 19, 2011, 02:56 PM
I have been around long enough to remember when there were horsemen who were consulted for a purchase.

I think the entire success of the WB program in the US was due to marketing. People who had the time and money to own nice horses wanted this whole "thing" so they could do so without having to know a real horseman.

It allowed breeding ops for amateurs to be financially successful.

It did well.

As someone said, in the real world, it does not pan out as well as in the spotlight anymore than it does in TB racing. Talent in the ring or arena or on the track does not necessarily transfer to talent in the breeding shed.

Personally, I'd breed to the posters appy above since it seems so user friendly! Doesn't mean I'll get the same horse but the expense would be much less I think, color is awesome and what is to lose?

That horse has passed the greatest test of all! User friendly!

Heinz 57
Oct. 19, 2011, 03:09 PM
wow. i suggest you all take a deep breath and then spend some time out in the real world.

:lol:

'Young stallions need to start somewhere'....

On what merits should a horse such as this be kept as a stallion and bred? All I see are owners with dollar signs instead of eyeballs, and THAT leaves a pretty bad taste.

PS. I live in the real world, where there is an abundance of horses (in both 'dazzle' and 'non-dazzle' colors) and no homes to take them. So, y'know, lets propagate more of them. While the rest of us are tightening the belt, these folks are popping out mixed breed designer babies like a candy machine.

ETA: Shawneeacres, I LOVE YOUR APPY!

dangerbunny
Oct. 19, 2011, 04:07 PM
Not a breeder but I thought the issue with crossing a mixed breed was that the traits don't always breed true. Like with a F1 you can predict what you will get but after that the offspring will take after one breed or the other.

Is that correct?

SendenHorse
Oct. 19, 2011, 05:01 PM
Maybe, but the market is typically very small. Why take a chance in an already tough market?

Ethically I wouldn't breed more horses unless I had very very nice stallion that added a lot to the sport and had a strong niche market...... Otherwise I think its unethical just to breed because you have a stallion.

horsefaerie
Oct. 19, 2011, 05:19 PM
Dangerbunny - Warmbloods are mixed breeds.

Senden, who gets to decide which stallions are very nice?

MysticOakRanch
Oct. 19, 2011, 05:24 PM
lets just say that i agree with the idea of performance testing, but think that the way this thread was presented is in pretty bad taste.

Yeah, I kind of agree - my initial thought - what is the point of this thread? Just to trash your neighbor's stallions? Or what other point? Sure, Warmblood people will be horrified at the thought of this stallion, but not everyone wants a Warmblood!

I own a Friesian/Warmblood cross stallion - in a dreaded flashy pattern - I'm sure the OP wouldn't approve of him either. My "crazy colored horse" has shown through Grand Prix, and I'm pretty sure his babies that are just starting under saddle are going to be successful too - they are nicer then many well bred Warmbloods I've seen. Again, not everyone wants a Warmblood!

Speaking of Warmbloods - they are really mixed breed horses too. Yes, carefully selected, blah, blah, blah, I really do get that, but they are not a "breed" (except may Trakehner, but even they allow some outside breeds in).

Some Warmblood stallions have no show record. Some of them go through a short testing period, then spend the rest of their lives "in the breeding shed" - but that is OK?

Threads like this are just mean. :no:

MysticOakRanch
Oct. 19, 2011, 05:27 PM
Not a breeder but I thought the issue with crossing a mixed breed was that the traits don't always breed true. Like with a F1 you can predict what you will get but after that the offspring will take after one breed or the other.

Is that correct?

Generally a F1 breeds more true to type, then it takes something like 7 generations before you get any consistency again. It isn't that the offspring will take after one or the other, just that the more "deviation" in breed types, the more inconsistency in offspring. F2 is where you're most likely to see inconsistent results...

Heinz 57
Oct. 19, 2011, 06:07 PM
I own a Friesian/Warmblood cross stallion - in a dreaded flashy pattern - I'm sure the OP wouldn't approve of him either. My "crazy colored horse" has shown through Grand Prix, ...

Some Warmblood stallions have no show record. Some of them go through a short testing period, then spend the rest of their lives "in the breeding shed" - but that is OK?

Threads like this are just mean. :no:

No, I 'approve' (:confused:) of your stallion. He's a cross, and a successful one. And I, personally, LOVE colors as 'icing on the cake' of an athletic horse. I had a gold champagne overo APHA gelding with green eyes as a teenager that was just fabulous. I currently have a sorrel overo APHA gelding with some fun markings and one blue eye, in addition to a black bay sabino (unregistered) DWB mare. I'm not breed prejudiced... my horses all came out of the bargain bin and were bought on conformation/potential/athletic ability, not bloodlines OR colors (or papers, in the mare's case). BUT, I also have no intention of breeding them.

No, I wouldn't breed to a WB (or any breed) stallion with no performance record. Even less chance if his parents had no record either.

I'm sorry you think this is mean. I think breeding should be seriously cut back, and I think the stock used should be tested and proven in the show ring before ever being considered to reproduce.

cnm161
Oct. 19, 2011, 06:19 PM
Generally a F1 breeds more true to type, then it takes something like 7 generations before you get any consistency again. It isn't that the offspring will take after one or the other, just that the more "deviation" in breed types, the more inconsistency in offspring. F2 is where you're most likely to see inconsistent results...

Yes. WBs are "mixed breeds". However, they are far beyond the F1-F7 crosses (for the most part). Also for the most part, they are bred for type and ability over purity of pedigree. Some even have separate and distinct types (e.g. KWPN harness vs sport)-- that nevertheless have achieved a level of homogeneity from years of consistent breeding. This includes direct offspring of TB/Arabs that have been added to the studbooks as well.

I know if I could design a dream horse, it wouldn't be plain brown with no markings. It also would have fetlocks that never require clipping and a ridiculously full tail. It would move like a dream, ride like a dream, self-load, tack itself up, and have a brain that could handle WWII explosions in the ring next door.

Trouble with that is even if such a blinged-out full-tailed paragon of a horse existed, s/he would be so far out of my price range as to be laughable. So I make sacrifices, as we all do. This breeder may have sacrificed movement-- or not. May have sacrificed rideability-- or not. May have sacrificed work ethic-- or not. Certainly didn't sacrifice flash. None of us know for sure, unless someone on here has had experience with this horse and/or his siblings.

I always worry about a cross of very dissimilar types yielding an awkward yak of a foal. Yes, your Percheron may be a god amongst drafts, but it feels like tossing the dice to breed it to, say, a Tennessee Walker. They move differently, grow differently, are built differently, and were originally bred to do very different things. And I'm sure there'll be a hundred "But look at this one example where it worked!" replies, but I've seen the flipside of that coin where unfortunately the yak prevailed. Not that the yaklings were terrible horses-- just not at all appropriate to the jobs for which they were bred.

ACP
Oct. 19, 2011, 06:24 PM
But sometimes they are just as nice. Just because a horse is a "dilute" color, doesn't mean they aren't nice either.

I know this well, my first good show horse was a palomino. :)

Gloria
Oct. 19, 2011, 06:50 PM
Yes, there are expensive purebred "duds," but careful breeding (and that's more than just breeding any old two purebreds together) lessens that chance. It also ups the odds that your "dud" will be someone else's gem, such as a horse was bred to be jumper but wasn't great at it doing well in the dressage ring. Of course flukes can happen but breeding a known lineage minimizes that. And while there's no guarantee that any given horse with a good performance record will pass that down, it is more likely that a horse with a performance record, who has parents who have performance records, who have parents who have performance records, etc. will pass that down.

There's nothing wrong with pretty. I'd venture a guess that most people actually really like flashy horses. ;) But you can't ride the color, or the head, or the hair. There has to be more than just "dazzle."

When I walk through the feedlot I see plenty of flashy horses with bad conformation on their way to Mexico. Breeders need to be careful that they are producing the most talented horse they can as well as the prettiest.


This.

Breeding is a risky business. It is already a crapshot even when you put two purebred animals together and if you put two very different animals into a pot, your risk just goes up the roof. And that is why careful breeders don't usually put two dissimiliar animals together, unless they really really REALLY know what the hell they are doing, and guess what, those folks know their odds of getting a good offspring are very low and they cull those regularly and ruthly.

SendenHorse
Oct. 19, 2011, 07:10 PM
Dangerbunny - Warmbloods are mixed breeds.

Senden, who gets to decide which stallions are very nice?

I would say a stallion being marketed for dressage should have some record in dressage shows. I don't think its hard to tell if a horse is suitable for dressage based on confromtion, mind, and ability?

I don't care if the horse is a mixed breed....

Golden Venture Farm has a very nice half arab x WB that is being promoted well, the horse is winning at both arab and open shows. Good mind, and the horse stamps his foals. He is approved by a stud book (RSPI?????) (Disclaimer: I don't know GVF, this is just an example).

SendenHorse
Oct. 19, 2011, 07:11 PM
PS: I love love love pintos, but color alone doesn't do it for me.....

Kryswyn
Oct. 19, 2011, 07:34 PM
Tonight is Wednesday night which means the Camelot Horse Auction is taking place in Cranbury, NJ. In a few hours you'll be able to see the 20-30+ horses/ponies/donks that DIDN'T sell, and are in what's called the #10 pen (aka the kill pen)by going onto Facebook and going to the Camelot Horse Weekly page.

If the past few months are anything to go by, you'll see plenty of colored horses with 'dazzle' who we will network our brains out for so they go to individuals or rescue groups rather than Canada, or Mexico.

Some (not all) of those horses were bred by people who had NO business breeding their mare. Some of those horses were carefully bred, and carefully trained, and STILL ended up being sold for less than $500.00. Most of the horses/ponies you'll see in the #10 pen are LESS THAN $350.

I guarantee if you ask the owner of the stallion in the OP "What would you say if I told you one of your stallions' foals was in a kill pen going for $350?" they'd say 'oh no. MY foals are all special and loved and fabulous and people love them.' or say, "that's not my problem that's the MARE OWNERS' PROBLEM."

Owning a breeding animal, be it horse, dog, or cat comes with responsibility that many are not able to accept. Breeding should NEVER be done without a lot of thought and even more knowledge. Stallion owners are 50% to blame for all the horses going to slaughter. If they are any type of horseman they should refuse service to mares that don't meet a high set of standards. But most single stallion owners are so thrilled that somebody wants to use 'their boy' that any open uterus will do. I see it with dogs all the time. And I won't even go into the deliberate breeding of mutts ("designer dogs" my ASS) and selling them for big money. Which is frankly what the folks in the OP sound like they're doing.

dangerbunny
Oct. 19, 2011, 07:48 PM
Generally a F1 breeds more true to type, then it takes something like 7 generations before you get any consistency again. It isn't that the offspring will take after one or the other, just that the more "deviation" in breed types, the more inconsistency in offspring. F2 is where you're most likely to see inconsistent results...

Thanks, that makes sense.

horsefaerie
Oct. 19, 2011, 07:57 PM
Krys, what is your point?

Do you know how many WBs that cost big bucks have been spirited off to auctions with their brands but NOT their papers? Have been put down at extremely young ages with physical problems? Have been sent off to cowboys who don't even know what a WB is?

How many auction horses have obviously come from purebred breeding ops? QH, arab, Haffie etc? Do they send their papers with them?

How long have you been around? The auctions have always been there, usually for used up horses, rogues, injured etc. Used to be for dog food. Then people food.

I can think of a couple of purebred lines that eventually produced genetic problems. They were purebreds! That is much less likely to happen when you have extreme diversity in the genetic pool. Much better stock, but I don't see anyone looking to breed to old mustang lines.

I can not think of anyone I would want to head up the "who gets to breed what" division of anything.

LaraNSpeedy
Oct. 19, 2011, 07:59 PM
I have a lot of experience with Friesians and their crosses since they have been very popular the last 15 years. The BEST of all of them was a cross with an Arab. That is a very nice dressage horse.

You ask a weird question. Its on the dressage forum SO I have to say NO - there is no market in dressage for a mixed breed untrained horse. Firstly, you take a gamble what the foal would be like - would he be like the mom, or the saddlebred side or the Friesian side or what? You dont have movement and temperament (for dressage) to consider since the horse is not trained. So there are too many variables, why not just go find a stallion with a record or a pedigree? There are plenty of subquality horses out there already. SAVE your money and breed for a GOOD one with less risk taken!

If you asked this on a forum for pleasure riders - you might find someone who says YES, sounds pretty - I got an open mare - let's experiement. I dont have a lot of use for those people. I suggest they go to a sale and buy a PMU foal or some other unwanted foal. Like I said - there are plenty of them already.

ALL this said - I just want to say - I did some horse shopping with a client. And we went to a barn that seemed to PLAY breeding farm. They SEEMED like smart people but GOSH what they bred was - weird. They mixed Percheron, QH, Friesian and Irish Sporthorse. And there were a bunch of just ok moving ugly horses. And starting price for a barely started horse was 10K. It was SUCH a waste of time. The way they mixed the breeding was terrible and they need-to-stop-it.

I have known SOME AWESOME Perch TB crosses but there is a gamble. I would not run a breeding farm like that.

mbm
Oct. 19, 2011, 09:30 PM
if you are not able to tell a good horse from a not so good horse then it is best to leave the prospect prospecting to those that are able to make those kinds of choices.

but to come on here and have a thread that is in as bad taste as this one?

it sounds like sour grapes to me. you probably got beat by a fresianX and now are cranky and about :)

i know several folks who have Friesian crosses and i also know a couple "Georgian Grandes" and the trainers love them.

as usual it is really all about the individual and the person standing in front of it. is the horse a good candidate for the sport the person is doing? is the person a good enough TRAINER to bring the best out of the horse?

being a WB does not guarantee dressage results... not by a long shot (or not after 2nd level anyway)

viva la difference! and "off breed" horses ! :)

Heinz 57
Oct. 19, 2011, 10:31 PM
it sounds like sour grapes to me. you probably got beat by a fresianX and now are cranky and about :)


I probably have, though I couldn't recount a specific instance. I'm one of those people that show for the score, ribbons are just a bonus! Unless it's a person or horse I recognize, I don't pay attention to what other horses or breeds are in my class. I do remember being at a schooling show this summer with my paint gelding watching the remainder of the class go; in floats a very pretty, flashy WB mare and I just knew I was not winning that class. :lol: We ended up coming in 2nd to a very well-ridden test.

There's a trainer in my town that has a very nice Friesian stallion she's been showing at 2nd and I believe they made their debut at 3rd this year - very pretty, she rides him well and he draws spectators. I've scribed for a number of his tests and one of my favorite judges is a big fan of Friesians.

While it would be unlikely as my first choice of horse if I chose to spend that kind of money, I have no issue with the breed or a cross of such. What I do have issue with is the willy nilly breeding that seems to be happening and the breeding of horses with nothing to show for themselves but a flashy exterior and a lot of knee action.

I am well-versed in picking prospects, and picking them out of the garbage pile at that. There are plenty of COTH'ers, and (GASP) real world folks with real world credentials that can attest to that.

dudleyc
Oct. 19, 2011, 10:50 PM
http://www.psi-auktion.de/en/psi-auction/psi-auction-2011/psi-catalogue-2011/catalogie-dresage-horses/?psiauktion=504&cHash=f4f046871c

This is a mixed breed stallion PRE x Floristan

ACP
Oct. 19, 2011, 11:59 PM
Bazy Tankersley, of Al Marah Arabians, says that it is easier and less expensive to take a two year old colt and 'prove' him as a stallion prospect by breeding him to about ten mares, then taking a good hard look at his foals when he is just 3 1/2. She maintains that this costs less than training for performance. I don't know if she is right or not, but I've heard a lot of people who agree with her about this.

Kryswyn
Oct. 20, 2011, 12:22 AM
Krys, what is your point? .... I can not think of anyone I would want to head up the "who gets to breed what" division of anything.

How long have I been around? A long time. I'm quite familiar with auctions, having bought and sold ponies at auctions (and I'm not talking Pony Finals Auction). Slaughter is a reality that I wish we could do humanely (see the Chronicle's article this week).

My point is anyone with a breeding animal should be educated enough about their breed standard and the species in general so that they know whether their animal is of breeding quality. Not every mare is worth breeding even if her pedigree is great if her conformation, temperament, and performance history don't warrent it. The old adage is "Breed the best to the best and hope for the best." NOT 'Breed what you got to whatever you can find and hope for the best.'

If someone wanted to breed their backyard cowhocked tied in below the knees paint mare to Totilas and had the cash, do you think his owners would go for it? I think not! Because they have standards for the mares that they approve for him. I'm just saying more stallion owners need to be picky since they're responsible for the offspring also.

****
As predicted, there are 6 'dazzling' colored horses in the #10 pen at Camelot. There's also a 13h mare with her 14h 5 month old colt. Yeah. That was a brilliant decision on someone's part. Somebody either didn't know enough to prevent that baby's birth or figure out that they couldn't afford the mare, let alone a colt.

I have NO PROBLEM with responsible breeders breeding responsibly. If health issues are developing in some lines then those breeders need to be aware of them; want to breed them out; and bring in new blood. Fortunately in most breeds (possibly excepting the Caspian Pony) there enough varied lines out there to 'out cross' while staying within their breed.

Kryswyn
Oct. 20, 2011, 12:28 AM
Bazy Tankersley, of Al Marah Arabians, says that it is easier and less expensive to take a two year old colt and 'prove' him as a stallion prospect by breeding him to about ten mares, then taking a good hard look at his foals when he is just 3 1/2. She maintains that this costs less than training for performance. I don't know if she is right or not, but I've heard a lot of people who agree with her about this.

While I've admired Ms. Tankersley for many years (Arabians were my first love) now I have to ask, and what happens to those 10 foals especially if the sire is deemed a dud and the foals are just poor to average. Sure it costs less than training for performance but at what cost to the foals? She's certainly not going to keep them for breeding stock, so they have to go somewhere.

smokygirl
Oct. 20, 2011, 03:13 AM
While I've admired Ms. Tankersley for many years (Arabians were my first love) now I have to ask, and what happens to those 10 foals especially if the sire is deemed a dud and the foals are just poor to average. Sure it costs less than training for performance but at what cost to the foals? She's certainly not going to keep them for breeding stock, so they have to go somewhere.

Even her "duds", are usually well received as performance horses. She doesn't sell her stock young, she keeps them usually til at least 3, and they are started/ trained. (She has an excellent Apprenticeship program). She is known for being very critical of her stock, and she culls quickly. Even good producing stallions, if they do not have the disposition she likes, are gelded. Most of her stallions are trained and shown, she just breeds them before they are proven yet.

She has been doing for like 70 years though, and it probably would not work for smaller breeders who haven't been refining there program for the better part of their lifetime. I'd say she probably has a very good idea of what stallions will work before she puts them into the run for being a stallion, so she is probably fairly certain how they'll work out.

She does something similar with her mares, and even her best producers are usually sold to other breeders before they are in there teens. I think I read that she thinks by then, she should have a daughter that is better.

mbm
Oct. 20, 2011, 11:48 AM
not sure if this has been mentioned, but just because a stallion is awesome in the sport arena does not mean he will produce well - or vice versa.

cnm161
Oct. 20, 2011, 11:54 AM
not sure if this has been mentioned, but just because a stallion is awesome in the sport arena does not mean he will produce well - or vice versa.

But it can be a predictor. Not a perfect predictor by any means, but there aren't a whole lot of other ways to benchmark horses.

Sure, some beat the odds. No sport history, but wonderful foals. Or amazing show record and only average offspring. But does that mean we should breed everything that doesn't have a show record on the offchance that it might produce something amazing? Or that we shouldn't breed anything with a show record because its offspring might not be as great?

mbm
Oct. 20, 2011, 12:00 PM
no, of course not, but people on this thread are wailing about how anyone could breed something that doenst have an extensive and stellar show career.

showing isnt everything. not by a long shot. especially in this day and age of over scored rides, bad training etc.

not everyone breeds for sport - altho i DO think there should be performance testing and data gathering for foals etc, that is different than showing....

It seems to me that there are sport animials (for each discipline) and then there are the non sport animals that are for folks that want to just have fun. there should still be testing for all those kinds and data gathering, but how would you show a pleasure horse? how does that tell you if it is good to be an all round family mount?

most people who have a stallion prospect will do test breedings. it is the only way to know what he will produce.

amm2cd
Oct. 20, 2011, 01:17 PM
no, of course not, but people on this thread are wailing about how anyone could breed something that doenst have an extensive and stellar show career.

I don't see any prostrate DQ's kicking and screaming because they have been beaten by something without a hip brand. Could this stallion be great? Maybe. (I wouldnt breed to him even with a few PSG tests under his belt, though)


showing isnt everything. not by a long shot. especially in this day and age of over scored rides, bad training etc.

not everyone breeds for sport - altho i DO think there should be performance testing and data gathering for foals etc, that is different than showing....
Having some sort of show record IS a way of perfromance testing, while maybe not being quite up to the 100 day testing that most big registries use, it's one way of collecting data.


It seems to me that there are sport animials (for each discipline) and then there are the non sport animals that are for folks that want to just have fun. there should still be testing for all those kinds and data gathering, but how would you show a pleasure horse? how does that tell you if it is good to be an all round family mount?

Sure there will always be some more competitive horses than others. That's how the world works. If you're looking for an all around family mount, you probably dont want to start from scratch breeding a baby. There are thousands of all around family type horses out there, most broke and ready and waiting for a job.


most people who have a stallion prospect will do test breedings. it is the only way to know what he will produce.
The burden should be on the mare owners here. If the stallion doesn't have a history/past breeding to indicate that he *might* have nice babies capable of doing what you want someday.
To each their own. If you have a mare and you want to test breed to a GA grand, go for it. Others of us have different goals in mind. No wailing here. He's all yours...

All of this needing diversity in breeding is just a red herring. There are thousands of horses out there (A few years ago the AQHA auctioned off reg number 5 Million, so it's not like there are three or four lines to choose from).