Anything to help grow a longer foot faster? [Archive]

CoolMeadows

Sep. 16, 2005, 10:50 AM

LMH, how do you know it's incorrect? Does that mean that the wild horses long toes in the the link you posted earlier (http://tribeequus.com/easternusa.html) are also incorrect? They'd have to be for people who go by the wild horse trim based on the mustangs of the midwest. I just don't think one style will fit all horses. Any horseperson worth a damn can look at a horse's conformation and way of going and know what they need. Some horses prefer longer toes, some like them backed up. I have both types in my barn right now. My 21-23 yo (never knew his actual age) jumper likes them a touch long, always has. Is he paying the consequenses for me providing him with "incorrect" hoof form? I don't know. He's older, he campaigned pretty hard in his younger years and yet there he is in my barn, still sound without ever having had a single joint injected, and no supps other than his vitamins. I had a friend who made up and sold an A/O hunter, reserve in the country, very special horse. She liked her toes a bit long too. First thing new owners did was back up the toes and make the mare quite off. They also ignored the warning that the mare did NOT Xtie under ANY circumstances. She pulled the Xtie wall down on top of herself after the grooms had stuck her in there to soak her feet. She broke her leg. Sometimes owners do know what's best for their horses, honestly. It's not nice to insinuate that an owner is hurting their horse, just because they do something differently. I personally don't believe that one hoof form fits all horses, but I DO believe in balance, and you have to study each individual to learn what their ideal is.

Aptor, I like Select Nu-Hoof. Lots of biotin, methionine, zinc, lysine... all the good stuff and not too pricey at about $17 a month. It really speeds things up.

LMH

Sep. 16, 2005, 11:20 AM

The OP made it clear she was growing the feet per Saddlebred standards...that is not shoeing to what is correct for the horse, rather shoeing per a breed or show standard.

No different than what Tennessee walkers do.

Sep. 16, 2005, 11:33 AM

If I may interpret something here:

I think the concern that is being raised is that, at least from I have seen of the "typical" Saddlebred foot, is that it just isn't about a long toe. The whole entire foot is too "there". Too much length of toe, too much height (and therefore length) of heel. It's not a matter of the horse necessarily having a broken back or forward angle, it's about simply too much foot.

Ask any barefooter, or ask anyone who believes in a proper trim (regardless of shoes) and they will all say that is incorrect hoof form. They might not tell you "don't you dare do it" or "you're killing your horse if you do that" but they WILL tell you it's incorrect.

I am not going to bother to question the true soundness of these horses in their older years (tried that, didn't get far) ,- perhaps after the show foot has been returned to a more correct state they are able to actually be sound, but I don't know, but I decided it's not a battle I can fight, so I'm not going to try http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Lookout

Sep. 16, 2005, 11:59 AM

From what I understand, this has nothign to do with what the horse needs, but rather what the human needs.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CoolMeadows:
I just don't think one style will fit all horses. Any horseperson worth a damn can look at a horse's conformation and way of going and know what they need. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

asb_own_me

Sep. 16, 2005, 12:25 PM

Thank you to all who have actually tried to constructively answer Aptor Hours' question.

To the others - what Aptor Hours did NOT do was ask your opinions on the length of her horse's hooves. Which you don't know anything about as you've not seen the horse in question. You're assuming....and we all know what assuming does http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Sep. 16, 2005, 12:34 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by asb_own_me:

To the others - what Aptor Hours did NOT do was ask your opinions on the length of her horse's hooves. Which you don't know anything about as you've not seen the horse in question. You're assuming....and we all know what assuming does http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're right, she didn't ask for opinions, but this is a bb, and just like any other bb on the www, opinions will be offered even when not asked for (and sometimes even when explicitly not asked for http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

However, there isn't much assumption going on here - in a previous post related to foot issues, Aptor Hours said

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Now I do have to say I come from the Saddlebred show world and lots of horses have wedges and it isn't because of poor trim jobs but to help enhance motion a bit. I sure don't plan on arguing though because I truly don't have as great a command on the foot as you do but I am pretty sure that if wedges are so harmful we wouldn't have loads of 20+ year old Saddlebreds that are sound and happy
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I haven't lived in the SB world, but I do read articles and look at show results occasionally from SB shows and with rare exception, the horses have feet miles high and even then some are STILL wedged. So there isn't much guessing here as to the nature of the foot that Aptor Hours is trying to achieve.

Critters Everywhere

Sep. 16, 2005, 12:37 PM

woooo-woooooo chugga-chuggu-chugga woooo-woooo

(going to get the popcorn now....)

CoolMeadows

Sep. 16, 2005, 01:14 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lookout:
From what I understand, this has nothign to do with what the horse needs, but rather what the human needs.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CoolMeadows:
I just don't think one style will fit all horses. Any horseperson worth a damn can look at a horse's conformation and way of going and know what they need. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I stand by my opinion that one style does not fit every horse. I think it's absurd to think every equine, regardless of breed, size and conformation MUST have a 30 degree hairline, 45 degree angles and a 3.5cm heel. HUMANS have imposed standards based on one study of one group of wild horses, living in one type of environment and all related to each other. If you cripple a horse doing that, is it really what the horse needed? But that's ok and doing the right thing as opposed to someone making their horse comfortable? Sound, happy and competing into their twenties seems to me to be decent enough proof that the hoof form of that particular horse is working for him.

Chugga chugga, choo choo indeed. To all barefooters, I'm honestly happy for you that your horses are all sound, aren't blowing abcesses all over the place, competing at top levels successfully, and living to ripe old ages (like all the 25+ year old mustangs, right?) without pain.

I have a two year old with awesome feet that I don't have any plans to shoe when he eventually starts work unless he tells me he needs it. He's trimmed Ramey style and so far so good. His feet were a mess when he arrived, he was pretty club footed and good trimming and nutrition have given him excellent feet. But if in a couple years when he starts real work he tells me that he needs something from me to make him more comfortable, I won't deny him comfort out of human stubborness or pride.

Why can't we agree that barefoot and trimmed a certain way won't work for every horse? Why must it be shoved down everyone's throat with the threat that if you do otherwise, you are committing abuse?

Sep. 16, 2005, 01:22 PM

CoolMeadows, I believe lookout was referring to the fact that SB show folks (or the fancy-shod TWHs or the tiny footed QH or or or...) are doing things to the horses' feet that make the horse suit a trendy style of what is "in" and "flashy" and unfortunately what is winning. When we let judges dictate how we manage our horses (huge feet, Scotch shoes, no turnout 'cause we can't have faded coats or nicks and dings, docked and set tails, etc), then we are in the (as lookout said) business of doing what the human needs instead of what the horse needs.

fergie

Sep. 16, 2005, 01:32 PM

CoolMeadows,
You go girl! I think the same thing, but couldn't have phrased it so cleverly. I run from farriers who pull out their "protractor" angle measuring devices and shoe from the same "formula" for every horse! Every leg and hoof varies from horse to horse, so why shouldn't the shoeing? That 4 point style has crippled a lot of horses that I know of. And I am speaking as a pigeon-toed adult who had "corrective" shoes as a kid - did not work. Maybe I need to be pigeon-toed and run like an ape...???

fergie

Sep. 16, 2005, 01:35 PM

CoolMeadows,
Don't you think that horses ALWAYS tell us what they need, if only we knew how to listen...??

Lookout

Sep. 16, 2005, 01:57 PM

So, you're saying that the shoeing method in question is good for the horse, and that's how the foot would grow if left to its own devices, and then why does the OP need to find ways to speed up the growth?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CoolMeadows:
I think it's absurd to think every equine, regardless of breed, size and conformation MUST have a 30 degree hairline, 45 degree angles and a 3.5cm heel. Why can't we agree that barefoot and trimmed a certain way won't work for every horse? Why must it be shoved down everyone's throat with the threat that if you do otherwise, you are committing abuse? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMH

Sep. 16, 2005, 02:07 PM

Not one person mentioed a 30 degree sloping hairline, 45 deg toe angle or barefoot.

No horse would grow a foot per SB "vogue"---and no hoof professionals would disagree with that.

Now a plane old shoer might-but let's keep this to what professionals would do.

fergie

Sep. 16, 2005, 02:08 PM

I think CoolMeadows was making a point about shoeing in general and those who profess to be experts... She was just having an open mind and not agreeing/disagreeing with Standarbred shoeing. I'm sure we can all also find faults/abuses in our equestrian specialties too....

CoolMeadows

Sep. 16, 2005, 02:12 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lookout:
So, you're saying that the shoeing method in question is good for the horse, and that's how the foot would grow if left to its own devices, and then why does the OP need to find ways to speed up the growth?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CoolMeadows:
I think it's absurd to think every equine, regardless of breed, size and conformation MUST have a 30 degree hairline, 45 degree angles and a 3.5cm heel. Why can't we agree that barefoot and trimmed a certain way won't work for every horse? Why must it be shoved down everyone's throat with the threat that if you do otherwise, you are committing abuse? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I never said the shoeing method "in question" is good for the horse. I don't know what the shoeing method is, I haven't seen the horse. I live in Saddlebred Country, VA and see a variety of trims and shoes on them. I also didn't say "that's how the foot would grow if left to it's own devices" because we don't know. The OP said she wants more toe, that's all. She stated the horse had been in a hunter barn and was trimmed too short for him and she'd like him to start moving better, to answer your question as to why the OP's looking for a way to speed things up.

Lookout

Sep. 16, 2005, 02:46 PM

And no one said any of the things you railed against in your post. Since you don't know anything about the situation, it seems like you to took the opportunity to grind your axe. You certainly had much to say given that you don't, as you say, know anything. While the hunter toes may be "too short" according the OP they don't seem to be harming any of the horses in that barn that got that trim, or hers.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CoolMeadows:
I never said the shoeing method "in question" is good for the horse. I don't know what the shoeing method is, I haven't seen the horse. I live in Saddlebred Country, VA and see a variety of trims and shoes on them. I also didn't say "that's how the foot would grow if left to it's own devices" because we don't know. The OP said she wants more toe, that's all. She stated the horse had been in a hunter barn and was trimmed too short for him and she'd like him to start moving better, to answer your question as to why the OP's looking for a way to speed things up. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

spacely

Sep. 16, 2005, 02:54 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">To all barefooters, I'm honestly happy for you that your horses are all sound, aren't blowing abcesses all over the place </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, if you do a bit of research seems that there are a lot of barefooter's horses that are blowing abscesses. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

Aptor Hours

Sep. 16, 2005, 02:55 PM

cool Meadows thanks for trying to understand. Most of there statements regarding ASB's are so wrong but I am not going to engage them in an argument, I really don't have the desire to do that. It seems the barefoot nazis wear no shoes but they where big blinders though.

I know I am not hurting my horse in the least so there opinion is null to me http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Aptor Hours

Sep. 16, 2005, 02:58 PM

lizathenag

Sep. 16, 2005, 03:00 PM

the quickest way I know to grow hoof faster is to do what I did. . .start using a farrier who charges $250! not that I am complaining. My horse's feet look great and never look like they need shoeing.

fergie

Sep. 16, 2005, 03:11 PM

Aptor Hours,
So many experts here, who WILL you listen to? I notice that no one is a farrier, though....

fergie

Sep. 16, 2005, 03:14 PM

AptorHours,
I still say Isoxuprine - it helped mine grow a lot of hoof in the winter when I wasn't competing (it's on the "bad" list for horseshows, you know).

Sep. 16, 2005, 03:22 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aptor Hours:
Most of there statements regarding ASB's are so wrong but I am not going to engage them in an argument, I really don't have the desire to do that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then please, enlighten us. Show me your ASBs feet - I would TRULY love to see that they are different from what I see in my limited view of the ASB show ring. Really - I'm not trying to be snarky.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
How come our SHOD horses seem a lot sounder than the barefoot horses </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm, seems there are a LOT of threads recently on shod horses who are young(ish) and who's vets are saying retire them, they'll never be sound. Bensmom has one right now. Since I think in part you are referring to LMH and her abcess/solar peel, you honestly do NOT know the whole story behind that, and it is not my place to go into it.

To make a statement that "your" shod horses seem {hmmmm, interesting choice of words there} a lot sounder than the barefoot horses is pretty interesting, especially given the fact that you yourself stated that you don't know a whole lot about the equine foot. I am really not trying to argue here, but you seem to be so anti-barefoot in the midst of claiming that ALL barefooters are anti-shoe nazis.

Barefoot or shod, proper trim or not, many horses will abcess at least once in their life. Manure happens - they gallop over a particularly large stone, they get a cut on the coronet band that lets infection in (that was my case), the develop some internal issue (ie Cushings), they are "rode hard and put up wet", and the list could go on.

I WISH a "farrier" would chime in here, because so much of what is being discussed ISN'T about barefoot! It's about proper hoof from, period. And that shouldn't matter except in the nits between a shod vs barefoot horse.

Aptor Hours

Sep. 16, 2005, 03:26 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JB:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aptor Hours:
Most of there statements regarding ASB's are so wrong but I am not going to engage them in an argument, I really don't have the desire to do that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then please, enlighten us. Show me your ASBs feet - I would TRULY love to see that they are different from what I see in my limited view of the ASB show ring. Really - I'm not trying to be snarky.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
How come our SHOD horses seem a lot sounder than the barefoot horses </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm, seems there are a LOT of threads recently on shod horses who are young(ish) and who's vets are saying retire them, they'll never be sound. Bensmom has one right now. Since I think in part you are referring to LMH and her abcess/solar peel, you honestly do NOT know the whole story behind that, and it is not my place to go into it.

To make a statement that "your" shod horses seem {hmmmm, interesting choice of words there} a lot sounder than the barefoot horses is pretty interesting, especially given the fact that you yourself stated that you don't know a whole lot about the equine foot. I am really not trying to argue here, but you seem to be so anti-barefoot in the midst of claiming that ALL barefooters are anti-shoe nazis.

Barefoot or shod, proper trim or not, many horses will abcess at least once in their life. Manure happens - they gallop over a particularly large stone, they get a cut on the coronet band that lets infection in (that was my case), the develop some internal issue (ie Cushings), they are "rode hard and put up wet", and the list could go on.

I WISH a "farrier" would chime in here, because so much of what is being discussed ISN'T about barefoot! It's about proper hoof from, period. And that shouldn't matter except in the nits between a shod vs barefoot horse. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry I cannot enlighten those who refuse to listen. You do what you do and I will do what I do. Good luck in all your horse activities. If you truly want to learn you can search on your own.

Our retired and sound American Saddlebreds are barefoot so I am not anti-barefoot. I really didn't want to get into this. I asked a simple question and got a few very nasty people. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

spacely

Sep. 16, 2005, 03:26 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It seems the barefoot nazis wear no shoes but they where big blinders though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif It's called tunnel vision.

For the record, all of my horses are currently barefoot. They are trimmed normally, not the narrow-minded way the barefooters do. Never, ever an issue. When he goes back into work, my gelding will be shod. Besides, if you listen to what they say, the barefooters put boots on their horses to ride. Something is very wrong with that. If you have to boot a horse to ride, then perhaps something is wrong with what you are doing. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

I'm sure some barefooter is going to get his/her panties in a wad over this. Go ahead, flame away. I'm going to the barn. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Aptor Hours

Sep. 16, 2005, 03:32 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by spacely:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It seems the barefoot nazis wear no shoes but they where big blinders though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif It's called tunnel vision.

For the record, all of my horses are currently barefoot. They are trimmed normally, not the narrow-minded way the barefooters do. Never, ever an issue. When he goes back into work, my gelding will be shod. Besides, if you listen to what they say, the barefooters put boots on their horses to ride. Something is very wrong with that. If you have to boot a horse to ride, then perhaps something is wrong with what you are doing. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

I'm sure some barefooter is going to get his/her panties in a wad over this. Go ahead, flame away. I'm going to the barn. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifHa ha may I join you at the barn http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

spacely

Sep. 16, 2005, 03:35 PM

Sure. No ASB's in my barn, but BO has a TWH. My TB's & WB's love him! Oh, and what you do with your horse's feet is your business whether I like it or not. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

CoolMeadows

Sep. 16, 2005, 03:38 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by spacely:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">To all barefooters, I'm honestly happy for you that your horses are all sound, aren't blowing abcesses all over the place </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, if you do a bit of research seems that there are a lot of barefooter's horses that are blowing abscesses. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif... or maybe I don't since Lookout so kindly pointed out that I don't know anything. Somehow, she has perhaps had an out-of-body experience, seen your horse's feet and predicted that you plan 4" heels with big wedges, 70 degree angle and mungo toes and that no horse was trimmed inappropriately at your previous barn. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Bad Aptor, bad, you will be flogged with wet noodles. Or maybe stoned with Old Macs. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Aptor Hours

Sep. 16, 2005, 03:52 PM

Yeah silly me I always put on a little tiny wedge and had a longer foot than hunter length...now I hear I am putting stacks on him like a big lick TWH...bad me bad me. Silly me I didn't even know all the evil things I had in store for my horse http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif

LMH

Sep. 16, 2005, 04:13 PM

oh boy! Gonna talk about Milo now are we?

please.

CoolMeadows

Sep. 16, 2005, 04:17 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LMH:
oh boy! Gonna talk about Milo now are we?

please. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Huhwhaaaa? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Aptor Hours

Sep. 16, 2005, 04:20 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LMH:
oh boy! Gonna talk about Milo now are we?

please. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeha huh? I know there is a town in Maine named Milo is that what you wanted to speak about? My aunt and uncle just bought a vacation home there in case you were interested. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Sep. 16, 2005, 04:30 PM

Aptor Hours, honestly, what is the problem? I was really truly interested in seeing what you call "not a big deal" (my interpretation) of the ASB foot that is grown/shod for the show ring http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

And since you brought up barefoot abcesses, I'd truly like to know which one(s) you are referring and why it was inferred that the shod feet were not abcessing http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif I made the assumption (damn, there I go again) that you were referring to LMH's Milo's barefoot abcess (sorry LMH for dragging that up http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif) but apparently that wasn't who you were referring to http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

So, since I guess it takes two to "play", and you aren't willing to show the feet that you think are ok, but don't know enough about, but are defending, and many of us participating on this thread HAVE shown our SOUND horses' feet, then I guess there won't be any reindeer games.

Sep. 16, 2005, 04:37 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by spacely:
Besides, if you listen to what they say, the barefooters put boots on their horses to ride. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm, I have always ridden and shown my WB barefoot and without boots. Guess that blows that blanket statement.

If you knew anything about the various barefoot professionals, you'd know that some advocate putting boots on if necessary to either make the transition to barefoot (and face it, some feet are so screwed up from time spent in too small shoes and/or bad trims and/or bad environmental management that not even God could make them truly sound on their first barefoot trim) or to ride the horse where his feet are not conditioned. You simply cannot take a horse who is pastured on 10 acres of lush grass, never schooled on anything harder than that, and expect to take him for a week in the Rockies. Shoes take that variable away, but shoes are there to stay, and some people simply don't want shoes on 24x7 just in case they decide to take a leisurely trail ride twice a month. So, boots are the answer - what's wrong with that?

But there are also those who say that you shouldn't use boots - that you should work on a program of conditioning the feet - ride where you can, not where you can't, and use other methods (hand walks leading to walking under saddle and progressing to "normal" riding under saddle in those environments, environmental changes, etc) to acclimate the foot to conditions you would like to ride. And there's nothing wrong with that either. Take your pick.

Aptor Hours

Sep. 16, 2005, 04:38 PM

JB you're right I don't want to play. I just wanted an answer to my question but why don't you just forget it.

Lookout

Sep. 16, 2005, 04:46 PM

It's on the bad list, but still you recommend it?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fergie:
AptorHours,
I still say Isoxuprine - it helped mine grow a lot of hoof in the winter when I wasn't competing (it's on the "bad" list for horseshows, you know). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aptor Hours

Sep. 16, 2005, 04:48 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lookout:
It's on the bad list, but still you recommend it?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fergie:
AptorHours,
I still say Isoxuprine - it helped mine grow a lot of hoof in the winter when I wasn't competing (it's on the "bad" list for horseshows, you know). </div></BLOCKQUOTE> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You could use it in the winter assuming you were not showing. It is not allowed at USEF shows because it is a masking drug.

lindac

Sep. 16, 2005, 05:13 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Or maybe stoned with Old Macs </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

fergie

Sep. 16, 2005, 05:50 PM

AptorHours,
You are NOT allowed to have a different point of view from the bulk of people on this Bulletin Board! Don't you know that there is only ONE way and you are WRONG, WRONG, WRONG for having a different opinion????? Besides, you have to tell everyone all of your personal business if you want any feedback.... Those are the RULES of this thing. Don't you KNOW that this website is NOT in the United States and there is NO freedom of speech (or thought)? Such original thinkers here, for the most part, huh...?

LMH

Sep. 16, 2005, 05:59 PM

Sidenote-I had no idea Isox was disallowed. What is it supposed to do that would disallow it?

I thought it was a common "navicular drug" but what can it do that would warrant not being able to show on it?

And if the only Milo we are talking about is a town in Maine...then let's leave that be.

Considering there was a comment on barefoot horses and abscesses I guess that seemed like a shot against my recent thread on one...if not...no harm no foul...carry on.

fergie

Sep. 16, 2005, 06:02 PM

I just assumed people knew what "the bad list" meant - a joke ...? Guess you haven't had much experience with equine pharmaceuticals.
P.S. Do you really think that there aren't horses out there showing with "forbidden" pharmaceuticals in their systems, for that matter? And NO, I am NOT suggesting to do that. But we ask a lot from these athletes. Sometimes they need a little help.

Lookout

Sep. 16, 2005, 06:09 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fergie:
I just assumed people knew what "the bad list" meant - a joke ...? Guess you haven't had much experience with equine pharmaceuticals. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
And proud of it. I guess the "joke" is that you don't take regulations meant to insure a horse's well being very seriously? And sorry your attempt at an insult backfired.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
P.S. Do you really think that there aren't horses out there showing with "forbidden" pharmaceuticals in their systems, for that matter? And NO, I am NOT suggesting to do that. But we ask a lot from these athletes. Sometimes they need a little help. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You've got a serious double, or triple standard going on here.

Lookout

Sep. 16, 2005, 06:11 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aptor Hours:
You could use it in the winter assuming you were not showing. It is not allowed at USEF shows because it is a masking drug. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Doesn't that say something about its propriety, any time of the year?

Actually, it is contraindicated during the winter due to the clotting problem.

fergie

Sep. 16, 2005, 06:11 PM

Lookout,
I guess I don't see the world as black and white, mostly grey. Just because it's a rule or a law, doesn't mean that it is right or that people agree with it.

Lookout

Sep. 16, 2005, 06:17 PM

So that gives you carte blanche to ignore it? I didn't know rules were meant only for those that agree with them. And I guess this one was instituted on someone's arbitrary whim. Are you doing anything to change this heinous rule?

Keep digging.

fergie

Sep. 16, 2005, 06:25 PM

HMM,
Lookout,
Actually, I DO care about their well being very much. That is why I really think we should be allowed to legally help them at LEAST as much as we are legally allowed to help ourselves. I can take as much Advil as I need. I can also be on antidepressants. You must be an "herbal" type of girl. That's cool. You know that "herbal" is just an unregulated pharmaceutical market though. Perhaps you're not an "herbal" girl and I am wrong. I still say that we should be able to "help" them though. I have had a lot of experience with equine pharmaceutical. Thank god for pharmaceuticals that can help horses and people...

asb_own_me

Sep. 16, 2005, 06:36 PM

Choo choo chugga chugga is right....this train has traveled so far off the track it is now completely derailed.

Aptor asked a SIMPLE question about how to encourage faster hoof growth. Period.

Aptor, I have had numerous farriers tell me that moisture is the key. Rainmaker or something like, rubbed in over the top part of the hoof and into the coronet band.

On a side note, one of my Saddlebreds is actually shown barefoot behind. A decision made based on how she moves with vs. without shoes. Not a decision based on warring tribes of horse hoof Nazis.

Sep. 16, 2005, 06:52 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fergie:
AptorHours,
You are NOT allowed to have a different point of view from the bulk of people on this Bulletin Board! Don't you know that there is only ONE way and you are WRONG, WRONG, WRONG for having a different opinion????? Besides, you have to tell everyone all of your personal business if you want any feedback.... Those are the RULES of this thing. Don't you KNOW that this website is NOT in the United States and there is NO freedom of speech (or thought)? Such original thinkers here, for the most part, huh...? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

*sigh* Why is it such a crime to ask to see an example of something I'm being accused of assuming is worse than reality? To say that folks here aren't allowed different points of view and opinions is totally ridiculous. Opinions and points of view are very much separate from facts though, so let's not confuse the 3. Sometimes they all fall in line, sometimes they don't.

I give up. I wanted to try to educate myself a little bit more on the ASB show world hooves. Trying to educate myself on what is real (whether it's correct or not, whether it's something I would do or not, whether it's legal or not) is more than some people on this board do though - they just prefer to think of their corner of the world as THE reality and have no interest in expanding their knowledge. Then some even want to cry foul when their little corner is called into question.

Sep. 16, 2005, 06:56 PM

You want a simple answer?

The best nutrition and free choice movement.

Lookout

Sep. 16, 2005, 07:00 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fergie:
Actually, I DO care about their well being very much. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Please reread what was written and respond to things I actually wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I guess the "joke" is that you don't take regulations meant to insure a horse's well being very seriously? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
And I'm still trying to see where the joke in this is.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">That is why I really think we should be allowed to legally help them at LEAST as much as we are legally allowed to help ourselves. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You don't get to decide. Unless, you're doing something to change this rule, which you didn't answer.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> You must be an "herbal" type of girl. That's cool. Perhaps you're not an "herbal" girl and I am wrong. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You're right about that - being wrong that is. I'm a "preventive girl". And a cure, not palliative girl.

fergie

Sep. 16, 2005, 07:45 PM

Lookout,
Rules were meant for anybody to ignore, but I guess I'm a nonconformist by nature.

Did I say that I ignore the rules? Giving a horse Isoxuprine in the off season is not breaking ANY rules. I work around the rules, just like any serious competitor does; I am just someone who's not afraid to say so. I am ultimately going to do what I think is in my horse's best interest, if you really want to know, and I don't feel guilty about that. I am one of those people who feels ethical "rules" override legal ones.... but that doesn't mean I am breaking any, does it?

fergie

Sep. 16, 2005, 08:00 PM

P.S. Lookout,
I still didn't answer your question, did I? No, I am not doing anything to change the drug rules. I have horses to ride and stalls to muck, and posts to write (another joke). You're not one of those people who is going to tell me to stop complaining if I'm not going to do something about it, are you....?

Aptor Hours

Sep. 16, 2005, 08:11 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LMH:
Sidenote-I had no idea Isox was disallowed. What is it supposed to do that would disallow it?

I thought it was a common "navicular drug" but what can it do that would warrant not being able to show on it?

And if the only Milo we are talking about is a town in Maine...then let's leave that be.

Considering there was a comment on barefoot horses and abscesses I guess that seemed like a shot against my recent thread on one...if not...no harm no foul...carry on. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isoxpurine is a masking drug which means it could hide other illegal drugs in the system. If you don't show you don't have to worry about it. There are many drugs you may give to an ill horse that you can't show on.

LMH

Sep. 17, 2005, 03:19 AM

OK...so I have now been critized and responded to like some child without a clue and my question has still not been answered...

Isox is a masking agent? What does it mask and how? I guess it can mask bute? banamine?

I have shown a time or two as well...I just don't drug my horses so I have never had to worry about good or bad...I also have never had a need for Isox so have never been interested in whether it is permissible or not.

And I do fear the thread will continue into the lands of nowhere.

AND

To answer the OPs question-what JB said: good nutrition and movement...even better is movement with barefeet to stimulate growth even more. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

CoolMeadows

Sep. 17, 2005, 06:18 AM

And... just to further confuse things, Isox is no longer a banned substance with USEF. It was considered a masking agent but with newer, more sensitive testing, it no longer is. I do recommend Select Nu-Hoof though.

Aptor Hours

Sep. 17, 2005, 10:52 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CoolMeadows:
And... just to further confuse things, Isox is no longer a banned substance with USEF. It was considered a masking agent but with newer, more sensitive testing, it no longer is. I do recommend Select Nu-Hoof though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok thanks that is intersting. There are many drugs that are on the "bad list" but that just means you can't show with them. It doesn't mean they are "bad" for the horse.

JackandMo

Sep. 17, 2005, 12:50 PM

A slight off topic -

My QH is barefoot and I ride him as such. He's a bit tender on gravel (doh!) but otherwise, does well.

Is it absolutely necessary to shoe him for riding on pavement (parade) if he has not been shod in quite some time?

Also, how well do the boots work? We have SAR mounted unit training mid October and will be working in some hilly terrain. My ASB, who is also not shod, will be ponied.

Sep. 17, 2005, 03:18 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JackandMo:
A slight off topic -

My QH is barefoot and I ride him as such. He's a bit tender on gravel (doh!) but otherwise, does well.

Is it absolutely necessary to shoe him for riding on pavement (parade) if he has not been shod in quite some time?

Also, how well do the boots work? We have SAR mounted unit training mid October and will be working in some hilly terrain. My ASB, who is also not shod, will be ponied. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, it's not necessary to shoe him just to ride in a parade. If he's tender on gravel it COULD be the trim (ie bars weight-bearing) or it COULD be that his feet just aren't conditioned to gravel (ie not a good deal of callous). Boots would be the ideal solution to your situation - put them on for iffy terrain, take them off when done http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

martysgirl

Sep. 17, 2005, 05:10 PM

Here's an assortment of ASB pics for enjoyment and/or bashing, depending on what side of the fence you graze on. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.newlineza.com/kentucky_state_fair_2005.htm

Sep. 17, 2005, 05:26 PM

I'm curious - are there "natural shod" (or whatever it's called) ASBs like there are TWHs for show?

martysgirl

Sep. 17, 2005, 06:07 PM

There's a Country Pleasure division, where they can't have pads. In some areas, there's a Natural Country Pleasure division, where they are supposed to be only keg shod.

martysgirl

Sep. 17, 2005, 06:13 PM

Here's a western Country Pleasure horse.
http://www.bluegrasshorseman.com/ad_SuesGreatDay.html

Here's a Country Pleasure driving horse.
http://www.tnh1865.com/advertise/shelby20.html

Aptor Hours

Sep. 17, 2005, 06:36 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by martysgirl:
Here's a western Country Pleasure horse.
http://www.bluegrasshorseman.com/ad_SuesGreatDay.html

Here's a Country Pleasure driving horse.
http://www.tnh1865.com/advertise/shelby20.html </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I like the spotted driving horse! Beautiful beautiful!

CarrieK

Sep. 17, 2005, 07:50 PM

Thanks for posting the link to those pics!

I'm with you, Aptor, and like that spotted!

Sep. 18, 2005, 05:38 AM

Thanks for the links to pictures. At least my expectations were met http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Raleigh's Mom

Sep. 18, 2005, 05:39 AM

Shoes on a weanling. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

2005 AHSA Ky Futurity Weanling Champion (http://www.newlineza.com/mycharmingchristina.htm)

Sep. 18, 2005, 05:55 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Raleigh's Mom:
Shoes on a weanling. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And here I wasn't gonna say a word... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Truckdobe

Sep. 18, 2005, 06:30 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JackandMo:
A slight off topic -

My QH is barefoot and I ride him as such. He's a bit tender on gravel (doh!) but otherwise, does well.

Is it absolutely necessary to shoe him for riding on pavement (parade) if he has not been shod in quite some time?

Also, how well do the boots work? We have SAR mounted unit training mid October and will be working in some hilly terrain. My ASB, who is also not shod, will be ponied. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I had ouchy feet syndrome and started walking mine down our gravel drive, then on the pavement to end of the road and back. I have added gravel all around the water trough and am going to add it to their run in. It works good on 2 fronts, 1, the ouchies are gone and 2, they self-trim or at least wear a little more on that surface.

Bare feet give the best traction and offer better cushion on pavement than any shoes. I'd go with boots if you're unsure. I haven't tried them myself, but have heard great things about Old Macs. I think it's on their website where they talk about a few mounted police units that use them on most of their horses.

KCFoxy

Sep. 18, 2005, 02:02 PM

actually..have found Datalife Farrier's Formula to be outstanding. my horse couldn't keep shoes and maintained a crack..this stuff has eliminated all problems to date.

martysgirl

Sep. 18, 2005, 03:05 PM

Tiffani B

Sep. 19, 2005, 04:56 AM

Please check out http://www.indiansummerfarm.com/Myths.htm

There is a section on saddleseat shoeing. If anyone has any questions, please email me directly.

LMH

Sep. 19, 2005, 06:02 AM

Tiffani the information on your website regarding the horse hoof is completely misinformed. Whoever wrote this as a justification for growing hooves so long and a complete lack of understanding of the horses hoof and how it was meant to be.

Sorry-you just proved my point.

Tiffani B

Sep. 19, 2005, 06:20 AM

I wrote it - and I understand perfectly how the hoof works and how a longer hoof affects the horse. It does not hurt them in any way.

BTW, my saddlebred Park horse is now barefoot and in the field for the winter. I am NOT one of those trainers who keeps them shod and long-hoofed all year. I pull the shoes to allow the heels to spread, and I believe it helps them to be barefoot for awhile. But I also believe it does not hurt them to be shod, even with a longer hoof and weighted shoe.

We've been doing this for centuries - and the breed is still strong and thriving. If this were a detriment to their health, it would have become apparent generations ago...

People with narrow minds like yours prove MY point...

Sep. 19, 2005, 06:25 AM

- "By growing a longer hoof, we are increasing the area of the base of their foot, providing a wider and more stable landing pad. "

The longer a foot gets, with tall heels, the more contracted it gets. This decreases the amount of weight-bearing area of the foot. The alternative is to have a long splayed foot which DOES have a greater weight-bearing surface, but none of the pictures I saw in the links posted, nor in any ASB show pictures I've seen, had horses with splayed feet. Just because a human puts on a platform shoe doesn't mean their foot is more stable - means quite the opposite.

- "A horses' toe grows at a much faster rate than their heel. A horse with a 4" toe will have just about the same length of heel as a horse with a 5" toe. So if we don't compensate for that extra inch at the heel, the horse will end up with VERY low angles, causing bowed tendons, ligament injuries, and other damage. So yes, the shoe LOOKS high heeled, but the actual angle of the hoof is no different than the average pleasure horses' angle."

IF properly balanced, the foot grows at the same rate - that's why any rings you see around the foot should all be parallel to each other, from the heel forward. But sure, if you want that 5" toe then you'd better get a taller heel or you WILL have tendon/ligament troubles. Doesn't make it correct. Angles are angles, and what may be a "correct" angle on a horse with 5" heels by definition of a correct foot means there is too much foot.

- "A trotting horse cannot move squarely and evenly if it is sore. "

If a horse is sore on 4 legs he'll still moves square and even.

- "A horse who's tail has been nicked cannot clamp their tail down, a dangerous habit for a driving horse. "

Then why aren't trotters and pacers tail's docked?

Sep. 19, 2005, 06:27 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tiffani B:
People with narrow minds like yours prove MY point... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please explain to me, how is LMH's comments considered narrow-minded? If you pull the shoes to allow the heels to spread, then you apparently understand that these shoes/method of shoeing/trimming/long foot causes the heels to contract which contradicts the statement made that this long tall foot has a wider base of support.

Tiffani B

Sep. 19, 2005, 06:31 AM

I've seen contracted heels on BAREFOOT horses. Length of hoof and weight of shoe has nothing to do with it - it's the trim job and the farrier's knowledge of how to properly shoe a horse.

And no, heels and toes do not grow at the same rate. This is maybe a myth? An ideal? But not fact.

And if a horse is sore on all four legs, you'll notice. They won't use themselves. Have you seen a sore horse? They sure don't trot with aplomb and verve like a saddlebred!

No one other than drafts have their tails docked...

Sep. 19, 2005, 06:43 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tiffani B:
I've seen contracted heels on BAREFOOT horses. Length of hoof and weight of shoe has nothing to do with it - it's the trim job and the farrier's knowledge of how to properly shoe a horse.
Never said there weren't barefoot contracted heels. Notice in my statement I included TRIMMING as one cause of contracted heels, and when you have 5" toes and 2" heels regardless of having shoes or not, the heels will more than likely be contracted

And no, heels and toes do not grow at the same rate. This is maybe a myth? An ideal? But not fact.
Yeah, in the balanced, healthy foot, they do grow at the same rate. Now, how they WEAR is a totally different subject

And if a horse is sore on all four legs, you'll notice. They won't use themselves. Have you seen a sore horse? They sure don't trot with aplomb and verve like a saddlebred!
Yep, I've seen sore horses, and hopefully the sore-on-all-four hunters I've seen don't move like a show-ASB! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I never said that a sore horse doesn't move as perfectly as he should - of course he doesn't. But you said he couldn't move squarely and evenly which is just wrong.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tiffani B

Sep. 19, 2005, 06:43 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JB:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tiffani B:
People with narrow minds like yours prove MY point... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please explain to me, how is LMH's comments considered narrow-minded? If you pull the shoes to allow the heels to spread, then you apparently understand that these shoes/method of shoeing/trimming/long foot causes the heels to contract which contradicts the statement made that this long tall foot has a wider base of support. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am referring to the belief that a longer hoof automatically has a contracted heel. THAT is a narrow minded belief. Instead of coming from a person who has decades of experience with this type of shoeing, that statement is coming from someone who has a very obvious breed, discipline, and shoeing bias. THAT is narrow minded...

Contracted heels are not caused by shoeing. They are caused by IMPROPER shoeing. I have horses in training who have worn their show shoes for years and years and years, with no breaks to go barefoot or wear plates, and they do not have contracted heels. Their heels are very wide. It's all in the talent of the farrier. Maybe I just happen to have the best farrier in the world? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I have seen plenty of contracted heels on show horses, and on non-show horses. Believing the myth that weighted shoes and long hooves CAUSE contracted heels is ignorance, and a person who chooses to continue in this belief without gaining firsthand experience is, in my definition, narrow minded.

I believe shoes of all kinds can cause damage if used IMPROPERLY. As can being barefoot, when trimmed by an ignorant person.

This is the last I will say on this subject. If anyone wishes to talk to me, they may email me personally as I requested in my original post. I am not going to get into a public debate with people who already have their minds made up. I will be happy to talk to those who wish to become educated.

LMH

Sep. 19, 2005, 06:43 AM

I think I am outta this thread before I say things that could end my days on COTH.

Tiffani...I honestly just pity people like you.

Educate yourself then chime in.

Carry on....

Tiffani B

Sep. 19, 2005, 06:47 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LMH:
I think I am outta this thread before I say things that could end my days on COTH.

Tiffani...I honestly just pity people like you.

Educate yourself then chime in.

Carry on.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Trust me...the pity party runs both directions, barefoot babe...

Sep. 19, 2005, 06:51 AM

Well, I for one believe what I believe based on a LOT of reading and doing and seeing and talking until proven otherwise, and since several folks on this thread have refused to "prove" otherwise by showing a picture of a healthy (meaning concave, wide heels, healthy frogs), long-toed, tall-heeled padded show ASB foot, what do you want me to do - trust you word?

This isn't and never has been about barefoot vs shod, so leave that argument out. It's about the trim and what is considered by the horse to be a correctly shaped foot.

And before you ask, my barefoot horse does have slightly contracted front heels but that is my fault for not having the trim "just so" yet. I don't play the "that's just the way he is" game, I KNOW there is something I'm not doing quite right and I'm fixing it.

Tiffani B

Sep. 19, 2005, 07:00 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JB:
Well, I for one believe what I believe based on a LOT of reading and doing and seeing and talking until proven otherwise, and since several folks on this thread have refused to "prove" otherwise by showing a picture of a healthy (meaning concave, wide heels, healthy frogs), long-toed, tall-heeled padded show ASB foot, what do you want me to do - trust you word?

This isn't and never has been about barefoot vs shod, so leave that argument out. It's about the trim and what is considered by the horse to be a correctly shaped foot.

And before you ask, my barefoot horse does have slightly contracted front heels but that is my fault for not having the trim "just so" yet. I don't play the "that's just the way he is" game, I KNOW there is something I'm not doing quite right and I'm fixing it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I will take pictures, close ups, this weekend and post them on my page.

I applaud you for recognizing that the trim/shoe job is what's causing contracted heels. There are some saddleseat trainers who see a contracted heel and say "oh well", instead of changing something. I wish they would say "that's WRONG!!" and fix it! So the horse might need to go barefoot for 6 months to correct the issue...but they're afraid of losing show time, so they let the heel get worse and worse until they blow quarter cracks or go lame. And then what? They lose way more than 6 months!!!

Not all of us long-footed, high-tail people are like that. We take care of our horses, and if we see something amiss, we FIX IT. None of my horses have contracted heels.

It's no different than a saddle sore - you can ignore it and keep riding, eventually causing more harm to your horse, or you can give them some time off to heal, and then take measures to ensure it doesn't happen again.

I make sure it never happens to begin with.

Lookout

Sep. 19, 2005, 02:55 PM

That's geometrically imposssible. The hoof grows down and forward, and it does not change diameter as it does so. In order for that to happen the shoe would have to expand with the foot as it got bigger on its way down. What does happen is the heel gets higher and higher and the angle changes, putting the weightbearing point unnaturally forward under the foot. The only way to make the footprint bigger is by bringing the heelpoint back to the widest point of the frog and the only way to do so is by lowering the heel.

Since we have to wait till the weekend to see your photos could you provide your definition of contracted in the meantime?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">- "By growing a longer hoof, we are increasing the area of the base of their foot, providing a wider and more stable landing pad. "
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you have rings, parallel or otherwise you do not have a balanced foot. Rings are an indication of pressure on the foot, in this case probably a result of the walls being too long for the shape of the foot. The pressure may be even all the way around, but it's still a sign of incorrect forces on the foot. From what you describe the walls must protrude far beyond the sole which forces the walls to take all the pressure of weightbearing. The wall is not designed to be the major/only weightbearing structure. While the horse exerts pressure on these walls the circulation is disrupted and a ring forms.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">IF properly balanced, the foot grows at the same rate - that's why any rings you see around the foot should all be parallel to each other, from the heel forward. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aptor Hours

Sep. 19, 2005, 02:58 PM

I applaud Tiffani for trying to give websites. I didn't bother because I knew that just a couple of posters were just itching for something to fight over...and there they go. Thanks again Tiffani your website is great http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Tiffani B

Sep. 19, 2005, 03:32 PM

Why, then, if you believe the base of the hoof to be the exact same size regardless of hoof length, are my saddleseat shoes so much LARGER in diameter than the winter plates that the exact same horse wears with a shorter hoof? Your logic is faulty. Hooves are shaped like a cone or pyramid (without the point at the top), and as it gets longer, the base widens.

Lookout

Sep. 19, 2005, 03:38 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tiffani B:
Why, then, if you believe the base of the hoof to be the exact same size regardless of hoof length, are my saddleseat shoes so much LARGER in diameter than the winter plates that the exact same horse wears with a shorter hoof? Your logic is faulty. Hooves are shaped like a cone or pyramid (without the point at the top), and as it gets longer, the base widens. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not with a shoe attached to them, they don't. Or are you saying the shoe gets bigger too? The width of the foot is determined by the size and shape of the coffin bone. There is a limit to how much the foot can expand beyond the width of the coffin bone. After a certain point all you get is stretched white line. This works out to be about 1" or so below the bottom of the coffin bone. How far below the coffin bones are the bottom of your horses' walls?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Why, then, if you believe the base of the hoof to be the exact same size regardless of hoof length, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, you're arguing from a misunderstanding of what I said. I do not believe the base of the hoof to be exact same size regardless of hoof length. Please reread what I wrote describing how the foot grows and how the heel height affects the base size, and how it can be altered by trimming.

Sep. 19, 2005, 05:13 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lookout:
If you have rings, parallel or otherwise you do not have a balanced foot. Rings are an indication of pressure on the foot, in this case probably a result of the walls being too long for the shape of the foot. The pressure may be even all the way around, but it's still a sign of incorrect forces on the foot.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">IF properly balanced, the foot grows at the same rate - that's why any rings you see around the foot should all be parallel to each other, from the heel forward. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, bad choice of wording http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But the heels and toes still grow at the same rate, right? I mean, hoof is hoof, right? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Lookout

Sep. 19, 2005, 05:19 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JB:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lookout:
If you have rings, parallel or otherwise you do not have a balanced foot. Rings are an indication of pressure on the foot, in this case probably a result of the walls being too long for the shape of the foot. The pressure may be even all the way around, but it's still a sign of incorrect forces on the foot.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">IF properly balanced, the foot grows at the same rate - that's why any rings you see around the foot should all be parallel to each other, from the heel forward. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, bad choice of wording http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But the heels and toes still grow at the same rate, right? I mean, hoof is hoof, right? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, some (unhealthy) feet have heels that grow much faster than the toes, such as those on a club or clubby foot. With all the weight pitched forward onto the toe, the coronary corium is compressed and results in insufficient circulation to produce enough toe. Eventually that corium becomes damaged and is very poor at producing toe wall. It does seem that in general toes grow a little faster than heels but this could be an illusion because of the foot growing forward and down, not just down. The illusion probably is compounded with underrun heels. So I think the bottom line in a healthy foot that they probably grow at about the same rate, maybe the toe just a little faster.

LMH

Sep. 19, 2005, 05:22 PM

But Lookout-on a club foot say, is it really they are growing at different rates or is the toe just wearing off more because of how the foot is weighted?

Lookout

Sep. 19, 2005, 05:35 PM

Wearing it off is part of it, you're right, but the heels definitely grow faster. You can tell because the ring is really wide at the back by the heels and close together at the toe. The rings are an indication of growth rate because they are formed as soon as the wall is produced, before it can have worn off (at the toe). On this kind of foot even when you trim it so that the heels are lowered, it can take a long time for the coronary corium to regenerate and start producing toe at a rate commensurate with the heels. It doesn't even have to be a club or clubby foot, just high heels or even just semi-high heels. This is one of the more difficult problems to correct.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LMH:
But Lookout-on a club foot say, is it really they are growing at different rates or is the toe just wearing off more because of how the foot is weighted? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

slb

Sep. 19, 2005, 08:56 PM

Wow...I missed the party again.... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Since someone was indicating that no farriers were posting...here is the view of a "conventional" farrier:

If the trim/shoeing method results in...
<UL TYPE=SQUARE> <LI>stretched or otherwise distorted/damaged white line
<LI>flaring or dishing
<LI>balance that leaves more weight bearing surface in front of the widest part of the hoof than behind it
<LI>contracted or underrun heels
<LI>frogs that lack ground contact
<LI>curved/"overrun" bars
<LI>atrophied frog
<LI>lack of concavity
<LI>breakover at the end of the toe
<LI>the hoof wall being the primary weight bearing surface
<LI>toe first landing
<LI>misalignment of the phalanges lever
<LI>excess "folcrum" type strain on the rest of the leg [/list]
....then it is unhealthy over the long term for the horse...it may be the feet, it may be the joints, it may be the tendons/suspensories, it may be the shoulders, neck or back, it may be the hips or hocks...but at some point horses with trims/shoes that promote these types of hoof issues will eventually show up as a soundness issue.

BTW.....taking an ethical postition as a "horse care" professional, this farrier will not shoe ASBs, Morgans or similar hores for show. He was trained in the application, but refuses to do the applications as it is contradictary to what he was taught as sound and beneficial trimming/shoeing practices.

Since I am NOT a "barefoot only" girl, I will say that it only takes a little common sense to see that if a foot falls into any of the critera above that it is not healthy. It doesn't really matter if it shod or unshod, it only matters that it is correctly balanced and aligned.

Cool Medows asked:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">....how do you know it's incorrect? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
By very criteria above. You are quite correct, each horse is different, eacn requres a different foot...some require different feet on the same horse, each has different conformation needs. All of this comes into play, no barefoot trimmer...or farrier...worth their salt will trim to conform to a standard for every horse...that is exactly what you are discussing here! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif You are stating that barefooters use "one size fits all" trimming, but yet, are supportive of a method that does exactly that....produces a hoof that "looks" like what a small segment of the human population believe is correct. It isn't just ASB owners, it is any owner looking to enhance their horse's movement to adhere to a set of human rules. How is that any different/better than what is being acquised of the barefoot crowd? While one hoof may be a little longer in the toe, a little higher in the heel, a little steeper in its angles than another, the bottom line is that ALL feet need to be balanced, have shared weight bearing and allow the joints to be correctly aligned. If this criteria isn't met, then the horse is set up for failure. It may come now, it may come later. But, the bottom line is that these things are correct for every horse and when they are ignored in the name of trends, then owners and farriers are doing disservice to the horse.

Just my 3 cents on the subject.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

zoehesed

Sep. 19, 2005, 09:29 PM

I just wanted to say that the hoof SHOULD all grow at the same rate if the horse is putting the same wear all over the foot....IF the horse is unbalanced or walks on the sides of his feet... same as people do... ever noticed your shoes wear out more in places than others... IF a horse does this... then that area will grow out more since there is more stimulation in that area and the hoof will grow out at different rates. Unless a horse has PERFECT movement... its hooves will grow faster in different areas depending on its way of going and wear patterns.

Sep. 20, 2005, 03:01 AM

Thank you slb http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Lookout

Sep. 20, 2005, 04:31 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CoolMeadows:
LMH, how do you know it's incorrect? Does that mean that the wild horses long toes in the the link you posted earlier (http://tribeequus.com/easternusa.html) are also incorrect? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, it's quite possible. Just because a horse lives ferally on any particular terrain does not mean it's well suited to it or its resulting foot condition is "correct". Horses evolved to live primarily on rough abrasive ground, for the most part and that result is visible in the mustangs' feet. They have made some adaptations to slighter softer ground, or wetter ground, but for the most part escaped feral horses have not had enough time to genetically modify to different terrain conditions. A case in point would be the Chinconteauge ponies or the "wild" horses of Abaco island. The Abaco horses lived a very good life with lots of movement on rough ground until their habitat was closed off to them and they were forced to live on softer ground in an enclosed area. Their feet did not suddenly adapt to the change, and teams of barefoot trimmers have had to be dispatched to deal with their overgrown feet. The horses of Cumberland island have made some adaptations in their feet but in many cases they do look overgrown, and the most telling factor that their hoof form is not "correct" is the conditions of their bodies. If you study them you see they are not physically well developed, their necks are stringy and rangey looking with inverted toplines, unlike the sleek well muscled Western mustangs. These are signs of using the body incorrectly, and poor muscle development in response to incorrect hoof form.

CoolMeadows

Sep. 20, 2005, 05:10 AM

Agreed Lookout, those wild horses look awful. I assumed they're harder keepers than the mustangs due to different genetics. I do positively know that their feet look nothing like the desert Arabs I saw growing up in the UAE who lived in deep sand all the time. Very wide, very round, you guys wouldn't like them either. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif The flares, the flares!

And Slb,
Cool Meadows asked:

quote:
....how do you know it's incorrect?

By very criteria above. You are quite correct, each horse is different, eacn requres a different foot...some require different feet on the same horse, each has different conformation needs. All of this comes into play, no barefoot trimmer...or farrier...worth their salt will trim to conform to a standard for every horse...that is exactly what you are discussing here! You are stating that barefooters use "one size fits all" trimming, but yet, are supportive of a method that does exactly that....produces a hoof that "looks" like what a small segment of the human population believe is correct.

Woah, back up there slb. Read my post and you'll see I'm not supportive of any one size fits all style. You'll also see I asked the question," How do you know her horse's hoof form is incorrect", because I KNOW you CAN'T know. I haven't seen his feet, you haven't seen his feet. You'll also see that I live in an area with lotsa Saddlebreds and have seen them shod all different ways, so how could I advocated one size fits all when they're all done differently? Some I've seen are barefoot, some shod short and in plain shoes for the Pleasure classes, some with tall feet. All the OP wanted was some advice to speed up growth after a bad trim, not to be told she was doing something wrong and her horse "would pay the consequences".

Why don't all you obviously concerned for the horse's welfare barefooters get yourselves to New Holland, buy all the foundered,crippled, debilitated and generally uncared for horses you can afford, and save THEIR feet and THEIR lives. I think they need your help much more than the OP's horse.

Oy, how did I get dragged in here again. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Sep. 20, 2005, 06:08 AM

Cool Meadows, the OP said:

"He was shod this last summer by farriers that normally shoe hunter type horses so they trimmed him short."

I don't believe she said it was a "bad trim", but perhaps it was "bad" according to what she perceives as correct form for a show ASB.

To most people interested in properly formed feet, this means the foot was perhaps trimmed to the PROPER length (for that horse). It is clear from the websites posted here that is much too short for the show ASB, leading to the OP's question.

The answer still is - nutrition and freedom of movement.

slb

Sep. 20, 2005, 07:33 AM

If it makes you feel better, I already did that....that's where my primary riding horse was headed.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CoolMeadows:
Why don't all you obviously concerned for the horse's welfare barefooters get yourselves to New Holland, buy all the foundered,crippled, debilitated and generally uncared for horses you can afford, and save THEIR feet and THEIR lives. I think they need your help much more than the OP's horse. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

CoolMeadows

Sep. 20, 2005, 07:33 AM

You know what, I'm not interested in semantics. I tried to make light of this whole thing earlier, but I give up. All Hail The All Knowing Hardcore Barefooters! Their Horses Shall Inherit the Earth. Meanwhile, those sound 20+ year old shod GP horses do NOT exist. They are merely figments of your imagination. Besides if they were real, they'd only APPEAR sound. In reality, they're crippled but don't know it because their circulation's been cut off. That's why you see them plowing through the jumps all the time, confused and wondering where their feet are. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

CoolMeadows

Sep. 20, 2005, 07:34 AM

Yes slb, that does make me happy. Thank you for doing that.

fergie

Sep. 20, 2005, 09:25 AM

CoolMeadows,
Now you have experienced a lot of the "superiority" on this web? Remeber, different is wrong. Besides, don't you know that JB is a vet and a farrier all in one, and he used to show saddle seat, so he know all the inside info...

asb_own_me

Sep. 20, 2005, 11:08 AM

I was going to post a few pictures from my recent ads that I thought clearly showed my horses' feet....a Country Pleasure gelding and a hunt seat mare.

After reading the last few pages of posts, I won't bother. Continue having at each other. Hope it's enjoyable, and try not to learn anything from each other http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

LMH

Sep. 20, 2005, 11:32 AM

I never realized how many ASB owners there were on COTH-and willing to post pictures---and all at training level.

How interesting http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

bludejavu

Sep. 20, 2005, 01:44 PM

LMH - I'm not at training level - I'm a bit more advanced as I've been here quite awhile. Perhaps you'd like to view a link to some of my horses albums that might surprise you a bit. Some are in parade attire, there is one show yearling and one very large chestnut filly. The parade horses vary in their show divisions from country pleasure, western pleasure and show pleasure. The pinto mare has one, I repeat, one leather pad on and no excess foot length. She has never been unsound in the four years I have owned her, nor has the big pinto gelding or any of the others except for the small black mare which is explained below. (The black colt is a friend's colt, not mine). I'll be the first to say that there are extremes that should not be done with gaited shoeing but what you will be looking at are pictures of horses all trained by an amateur and all moderately successful in showing on a local level. The links posted of L'ville show horses do not represent the majority of what is shown in local shows.

http://groups.msn.com/Briarcreekpictures/shoebox.msnw

I also wanted to add that just yesterday, I carried the black mare that you will see a few pictures of, to my vet for x-rays and a lameness evaluation. The outcome is that she has what is termed "broken back axis" in both front legs. Recommendation to cure the problem from two extremely well respected Georgia vets -a wedge pad and a flat leather pad. She grows toe because she has sheered heels. Their corrective farrier was on-site and agreed 100% that this mare was never going to grow a heel no matter how hard we tried and pads were her absolute best option. The only other option that would help her would be a specially made shoe in the form of a heel wedge.

Just thought you might like to hear from someone who isn't at training level http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

martysgirl

Sep. 20, 2005, 02:05 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LMH:
I never realized how many ASB owners there were on COTH-and willing to post pictures---and all at training level.

How interesting http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, back in June, I had a feeling this topic would come up in September, so I joined. Then I waited until someone asked, not once but twice, for pics and I posted a few links. Not really that interesting. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

LMH

Sep. 20, 2005, 02:30 PM

blu-

interesting diagnosis---a broken back axis often occurs from toe too long and underrun or long and low heels.

The horse has the appearance of having no heel when in fact it is heels that have grown forward.

Often vets and traditional farriers give the Rx of wedges without having the understanding that the problem will correct if the heels are trimmed and brought back to the widest part of the frog.

Having "no" heel is a diagnosis that is very confusing to me-horses are meant to have low heels so long as the heels are at the widest part of the frog.

With increased publications from researchists as Dr Bowker will hopefully bring the veterinary and farrier community up to speed.

You can't fault the industry-they have lots to worry about but very often there are not in fact up to speed on things.

YankeeASB

Sep. 20, 2005, 02:39 PM

I'm not going to get into this because I realized a long time ago that you can't change the opinions of the opionated...

I just want to say to bludejavu- what a pretty baby!

LMH

Sep. 20, 2005, 02:42 PM

also blu-

I just glanced through your album-the young horses are very cute.

The horse in the silver saddles album...

http://groups.msn.com/Briarcreekpictures/silversaddles....ShowPhoto&PhotoID=69 (http://groups.msn.com/Briarcreekpictures/silversaddles.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=69)

while it is hard to tell alot with the bell boots...just my observations...

the hind feet are not as "tall" as some I have seen but they are still not a very balanced looking hind foot...and because of the boots it is hard to see much BUT the LF toe looks like it is running way forward.

So...this has nothing to do with attack of the barefoot...but I just wanted to comment that these would be considered feet too long by most that consider the balance of a horse's foot.

Shoeing this horse with NB principles (and that IS shoeing by the way) would be far healthier and more comfortable for the horse.

Sep. 20, 2005, 02:43 PM

Cool Meadows and fergie, give me a freakin' break. YOU are the ones who are making this into a "barefoot babe" contest and for the last time it has NEVER been about barefoot or shod! It has ALWAYS been about proper hoof form, on this thread anyway.

Why is it that whenever folks who have barefoot horses and intend to keep them that way (ie me and LMH) chime in on something we are reamed for trying to force opinions (and even *gasp* fact) on people, but when someone who has shod, or shod and barefoot horses (ie slb) no such thing is done? Because you have formed an opinion about people who prefer barefoot, therefore everything that comes out of our mouths must be heresy and evil and to be ignored and put down at all cost. It really doesn't change - it's that way all over. If you are all so irritated with the "holier than thou" attitudes, why don't you all seem to be making an attempt at educating yourself on maximizing the equine foot form?

As for
"Why don't all you obviously concerned for the horse's welfare barefooters get yourselves to New Holland, buy all the foundered,crippled, debilitated and generally uncared for horses you can afford, and save THEIR feet and THEIR lives. I think they need your help much more than the OP's horse."

Read what I just wrote above. Just because we have an interest in something doesn't mean we have money or extra time on our hands. But we DO have voices and fingers and can point to websites MUCH more knowledgeable than we are to try to educate people on how to take care of things themselves. It's called educating one's self, something I strive to do with things that interest me.

To me it's the non-barefoot-BABES who are getting all testy when presented with facts that go against everything you've been raised with.

And fergie, we went over this already. Opinions and "point of view" are one thing, not to be confused or lumped in with facts - has nothing to do with superiority. And to call me a "he" is hysterical. If your definition of "superiority" is presenting facts and correcting myths and fallacies, then so be it, I am superior. I can't stand it when people claim to like or dislike something, or think it's ok, based on ignorance and lack of understanding, slam others for showing them the loopholes in their understanding and slam for their "points of view" which are based on fact and truth, and then cry foul.

If you all want this thread to be about shoes vs no shoes, have at it - I'm out of it, because I don't really care if people put shoes on their horse.

If you want it to be about 5" toes and 2" heels as being "correct" and "they all do it" and then claim that it is proper hoof form and come up with explantions to make you feel better about doing it, there will be some arguing going on because a LOT of people care about what others think is a healthy foot.

LMH

Sep. 20, 2005, 02:44 PM

OK now I could see the feet on this one....
http://groups.msn.com/Briarcreekpictures/silversaddles....ShowPhoto&PhotoID=79 (http://groups.msn.com/Briarcreekpictures/silversaddles.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=79)

and again-we are talking LONG LONG feet http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I would assume this would be considered the desireable length?

Or in fact would the ASB'ers consider these feet normal?

Critters Everywhere

Sep. 20, 2005, 02:53 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by martysgirl:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LMH:
I never realized how many ASB owners there were on COTH-and willing to post pictures---and all at training level.

How interesting http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, back in June, I had a feeling this topic would come up in September, so I joined. Then I waited until someone asked, not once but twice, for pics and I posted a few links. Not really that interesting. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Martysgirl...you have a future as a Psychic, don't ya know! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Aptor Hours

Sep. 20, 2005, 03:30 PM

Ok I think that I am all set here. I have gotten my answer and that is it. I didn't ask what the barefoot people, or the Saddle Seat bashers think. If you notice the Saddle Seat people have not told the die hard barefooters that they are all wrong. I do admit I made the mistake of suggesting a small wedge pad lmh when I first looked at a picture of what looked to be a very painful situation for the horse...and I apologize over and over again for that.

Let me assure you my horse is happy and well cared for despite the fact that he has shoes on and sometimes even wedge pads on and a longer toe. So the people who are having a huge issue with Saddlebred feet can just settle down and continue nice discussions like what blanket to buy, what is the best fly spray, the best pitchfork etc.

Thanks a bunch http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

slb

Sep. 20, 2005, 03:49 PM

OMG....you guys use blankets and fly spray! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

LMH

Sep. 20, 2005, 03:51 PM

AH this has nothing to do with suggesting a wedge pad for a solar abscess.

Though now that you have brought it up again-can you explain what benefit you have been taught the wedge would have in that situation?

Now-this has nothing to do with bashing shoes or breeds as a whole-what it has to do with is pointing out something that may not be obvious to you or others.

Shoes or not, the horse must be balanced for longterm overal health. That includes for most horses not having long toes-or more important heels and toes that put the coffin bone out of alignment (you are familiar with the importance of coffin bone alignment I assume?)

Now I did start a thread showing feral horses on sandy terrain with longer toes-and that is interesting to lots of people in the hoof care industry-but certainly it is obvious those horses are living on sandy terrain...likely the load on the softer terrain is different so the foot adapts to be in balance on that terrain-if you moved these horses to more abrasive terrain, likely the foot would look more like their western cousins.

So...when a domestic horse not ridden and housed on soft terrain is braced in a shoe in improper balance it effects his comfort and overall health.

This is not news or barefoot creed-it is common sense hoof care.

What is frustrating and why those educated in hoof care become negative toward certain breeds, typically those that have certain fashion in hoof care for show, is the random criteria established for showing do not consider the health and well being of the horse.

This is common in TW, ASBs and often the teacup foot fashionable on the halter horses, just to name a few. Some hunters think longer toes do certain things for movement, race horses and dressage as well.

This is fashion and takes no account for the horse-now that is the issue here.

Next what happens is becomes so norm that most people do not even recognize what a healthy foot looks like-and this often includes vet and hoof care professionals.

That is why I asked whether the feet in the links I referred would be considered normal for ASB standards---they would not for most any other breed or discipline.

The feet, based on standards of well respected equine professionals, would not be considered balanced allowing the foot to form as it should.

If it frustrates you that those that have spent hours and days and YEARS studying this information might be sounding critical, then so be it.

If I am told something is unhealthy for my horse I would at least want to become educated enough to determine if the criticism is well founded or not.

That is what I have spent the better part of the last 2 years doing-and I am talking hours each day researching anything I can.

Again-slap a shoe on or not-but at least trim the foot to allow it to function properly...once the foot is in fact balanced, one might be surprised how much better that foot functions barefoot.

So...take this information and do something or nothing-that is your choice...the very least you could do is read a few books or articles that explains the function of the structures of the foot and how the form effects function.

LMH

Sep. 20, 2005, 03:52 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by slb:
OMG....you guys use blankets and fly spray! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

slbeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee now am I going to have to discuss how blankets interfere with nature's way of regulating a horse's temp AND the nastiness of chemicals? How flies only prey on the weak systems?

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Aptor Hours

Sep. 20, 2005, 04:19 PM

LETTING OUT A LONG SCREAM! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif LMH THAT IS ENOUGH! You need to start a new thread listing the evils of shoes and everything that you know. No no I was thinking start your own website where people pay you to tell them how crappy their horses are and that pulling shoes will fix all troubles. You should probably stop riding as well....that isn't natural you know.

LMH

Sep. 20, 2005, 04:25 PM

When you stop screaming re-read what i have written-including recommending SHOES according to natural balance principles.

If you are going to have an adult conversation it starts with reading what is written...not throwing a cyber temper tantrum because you don't like what is being said.

LMH

Sep. 20, 2005, 04:28 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">BTW.....taking an ethical postition as a "horse care" professional, this farrier will not shoe ASBs, Morgans or similar hores for show. He was trained in the application, but refuses to do the applications as it is contradictary to what he was taught as sound and beneficial trimming/shoeing practices. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

OH and AH-while you are getting all red in the face-this quote was from slb-whose husband is a farrier and applies shoes.

Why is it you don't consider this an issue?

Lookout

Sep. 20, 2005, 04:48 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CoolMeadows:
Agreed Lookout, those wild horses look awful. I assumed they're harder keepers than the mustangs due to different genetics. I do positively know that their feet look nothing like the desert Arabs I saw growing up
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Then the next logical conclusion has to be, that there is one correct hoof form.

Lookout

Sep. 20, 2005, 04:52 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CoolMeadows:
All Hail The All Knowing Hardcore Barefooters! Their Horses Shall Inherit the Earth. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Try, and try, and try and make it about barefoot, and STILL it's not about barefoot.

Tiffani B

Sep. 20, 2005, 05:04 PM

I love how opinions are being presented as facts, by both sides on this issue, including myself (which is why I am politely withdrawing from this conversation since my opinion is not welcome).

It's like religion! Nothing other than various people's theories and suppositions on how things work, or SHOULD work, and what's comfortable and proper...all conjecture, since the horse can't talk. And how do you know they're comfortable? The same way us long-toed people know! They show no signs of DIScomfort! So unless you're capable of speaking horse, reading horse's minds, or having an into-horse-body experience, do not project your opinions as FACTS.

So now I have a third subject to avoid in polite conversation. Religion, politics, and shoeing.

Thanks ya'll for the entertainment, and Loves ASBs, give me a call sometime. We'll do lunch and talk about my "experience".

Sep. 20, 2005, 05:04 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lookout:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CoolMeadows:
All Hail The All Knowing Hardcore Barefooters! Their Horses Shall Inherit the Earth. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Try, and try, and try and make it about barefoot, and STILL it's not about barefoot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

*sigh* I've tried several times on this - maybe you'll have better luck than I did http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Raleigh's Mom

Sep. 20, 2005, 05:17 PM

Question for the "barefooters" (or balanced trim/shoeing folks http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) ... how many of you formerly had horses that were shod with long toes, high heels or underrun heels?

I was one of them... thought it was "normal". Then, I started reading and studying. But, why is it that those of us that have "changed our ways" are seen as the ones that are not open-minded? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

LMH

Sep. 20, 2005, 05:28 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Raleigh's Mom:
Question for the "barefooters" (or balanced trim/shoeing folks http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) ... how many of you formerly had horses that were shod with long toes, high heels or underrun heels?

I was one of them... thought it was "normal". Then, I started reading and studying. But, why is it that those of us that have "changed our ways" are seen as the ones that are not open-minded? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I will kiss you now RM...

I had two types---long toes and underrun heels on one, tall mule feet on the other (which I was not as aggressive in fixing-he was shod this way until his shoes were pulled at 18yo...am I darn certain that "helped" his rotation when he foundered...but that is another story)...since being barefoot (or should I just meekly say trimmed properly) the issues have resolved and the horses move better and things like sore backs are solved.

I can't help but wonder if the former shoeing and balance contrary to what is natural caused by now 7yo to have fused hocks by the age of 4 http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

As far as Tiffani's last post-I am not sure how determining a balanced foot can be considered opinion any more than explaining how a horse's digestive system is considered opinion.

What is currently considered a balanced foot is the result of lots of research by well those well respected in the industry.

To AH-

Since you don't find the high foot offensive let's try this...

please simply answer the questions to the best of your ability.

What do you understand the FUNCTION of the following structures to be:

Hoof wall (inner and outer wall),
Sole
Frog
Bars

What do you find imbalances in the growth of these structures ( by overtrimming or allowing to grow to much) would have on the structure's ability to function properly.

If you are unable to answer this VERY simple question, then I don't see how you can comment that nothing is wrong with tall feet.

Now be forewarned this is going to make you have to think...but I will patiently await your answer....

along with Lookout's former question, still unanswered, reagarding your definition of contraction.

If we just start here, perhaps you can enlighten the cult a bit...

Sep. 20, 2005, 05:29 PM

CoolMeadows

Sep. 20, 2005, 05:34 PM

Ok, it's not about barefoot. It's about people who *happen to be* barefooters with barefoot horses spouting off their opinions as facts and as the only way and sniggering like little school children about all the other "different" people. Again, I'm happy for you if your horses are truly sound, move better than the shod hack winners, and jump a ten at indoors. I'd love to see the videos. No offense but I have my doubts about how well they'd hold up to a full show schedule. Like I said, I have one barefoot who'll remain that way unless he tells me otherwise, which I expect will probably happen since I plan on showing him regularly if what looks like a spectacular free jump crosses over to under saddle when we get to that point.
I don't understand why you can't accept that there are many sound, shod horses who stay that way into old age, even if their hoof form doesn't mesh with the courses you've taken and the books you've read. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

And Lookout, I don't know how you came to the conclusion that because the wild horses on the west coast have different feet from the wild horses on the east coast have different feet from the wild horses of the Middle East that there must be only one correct hoof form. On the link LMH provided to the island horses, speculation was made that the long toes helped the horses, and nothing negative was said about their hoof form or soundness. They appear stringy to me, but again, my thoughts are they're either genetically not the same type of scrub horse as the mustangs, or their food source isn't as adequate, or they have parasite problems which wouldn't surprise me in that kind of warm, wet environment. The desert horses I grew up around with the wide flared feet did very well walking the deep sand dunes without sinking. They appeared quite sound, and most were plump. So if wild horses the world over have different hoof forms for different terrains, why do people pitch such fits that riding horses with various jobs have varying feet? I wouldn't want my jumpers to be shod like a racking horse and for the most part I wouldn't want my hunters shod like my jumpers. If the horses are sound and happy with their lives, why does it bother you so much?

asb_own_me

Sep. 20, 2005, 05:38 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LMH:
I never realized how many ASB owners there were on COTH-and willing to post pictures---and all at training level.

How interesting http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How interesting. That I've been a member for over a year? Let me be the first to apologize for having a busy life that includes a successful career, a husband, and much time spent traveling and away at shows. How awful that I don't have nearly 7,000 posts. I'm obviously in the wrong for not spending more time on COTH. As far as being an outright bitch to people I don't know - seems like I could learn quite a bit from you.

Pocket Pony

Sep. 20, 2005, 06:04 PM

Wow, this is getting good! I think my drink for this evening's catfight will be Lagunitas Pale Ale. Carry on. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Sep. 20, 2005, 06:20 PM

Lookout

Sep. 20, 2005, 06:24 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CoolMeadows:
Ok, it's not about barefoot. It's about people who *happen to be* barefooters with barefoot horses spouting off their opinions as facts </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
What about slb who said a farrier she knows will not shoe according to ASB show principles because of ethical considerations? Where does that fit into barefooters spouting off opinions?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Again, I'm happy for you if your horses are truly sound, move better than the shod hack winners, and jump a ten at indoors. I'd love to see the videos. No offense but I have my doubts about how well they'd hold up to a full show schedule. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You must have wandered into the wrong thread somehow http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Do you realize you're the only one having this conversation ??????

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> And Lookout, I don't know how you came to the conclusion that because the wild horses on the west coast have different feet from the wild horses on the east coast have different feet from the wild horses of the Middle East that there must be only one correct hoof form. On the link LMH provided to the island horses, speculation was made that the long toes helped the horses, and nothing negative was said about their hoof form or soundness. They appear stringy to me, but again, my thoughts are they're either genetically not the same type of scrub horse as the mustangs, or their food source isn't as adequate, and most were plump. So if wild horses the world over have different hoof forms for different terrains, why do people pitch such fits that riding horses with various jobs have varying feet? h? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
To answer your first question - by means of deductive reasoning. Wild horses feet the world over are not that different from each other. The ones that show extreme variation are coping and need outside help in the form of human interference. It is possible to be very thin but show correct muscle development. These horses do not show signs of malnutrition but rather poor muscular development because they are not able to use themsleves properly. It's like if you performed an exercise incorrectly over and over, you would develop the wrong muscles. By your logic, if horses can be dropped into any environment and adapt practically overnight with no detrimental effects, than they should also be able to do it in a domestic situation. They should adapt to all the demands of stabling and showing requirements of different disciplines by virtue of being asked to do so, without any human interferece , just like feral horses in any environment supposedly are capable of doing.

CoolMeadows

Sep. 20, 2005, 06:29 PM

bludejavu

Sep. 20, 2005, 06:54 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LMH:
blu-

interesting diagnosis---a broken back axis often occurs from toe too long and underrun or long and low heels.

The horse has the appearance of having no heel when in fact it is heels that have grown forward.

Often vets and traditional farriers give the Rx of wedges without having the understanding that the problem will correct if the heels are trimmed and brought back to the widest part of the frog.

Having "no" heel is a diagnosis that is very confusing to me-horses are meant to have low heels so long as the heels are at the widest part of the frog.

With increased publications from researchists as Dr Bowker will hopefully bring the veterinary and farrier community up to speed.

You can't fault the industry-they have lots to worry about but very often there are not in fact up to speed on things. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry to be so slow getting back on here - been off preparing for a show tonight and just got back in. LMH - I simply don't know what to make of you http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. You insist that your ideologies and ideas are of the latest documentation concerning shoeing and in the same paragraph you totally discount the vets and farrier who are considered in this state to be some of the best. Wow - you've got a lot of nerve http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif! Sorry but I think I'll take the word of my vets and farrier over yours - nothing personal but I don't know you from Adam.

The horse in the first link that you make reference to is a friend's horse who helped us out at an exhibition. That horse is now 19 years old and absolutely sound. She shows him all the time so I get to see him quite a bit. His nick name is "Happy" and he is the biggest sweetheart of a horse. I can't say much about his feet other than to say that she trail rides him quite a bit in South Georgia and he does just fine.

As for the other gelding you commented on (big pinto), he is now 8 years old and is just about as sound as he could possibly be. He has the most absolutely comfortable western jog and lope and I mean what I am about to say sincerely - you are invited to visit me any time and ride my guys and girls. They're not hunters, dressage horses or sport horses, but they are sound and comfortable riding horses. After reading many of your posts on here in the past, I don't think you're in Georgia, but if you are, that's where I live http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

There are a lot of Saddlebred owners out there just like me - we're not professional trainers, just amateurs who love our horses. It's a shame that this topic had to get so out of hand and it would be my preference that we would all just agree to disagree and let it go at that.

bludejavu

Sep. 20, 2005, 07:03 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by YankeeASB:
I'm not going to get into this because I realized a long time ago that you can't change the opinions of the opionated...

I just want to say to bludejavu- what a pretty baby! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

THANK YOU!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I'm proud of him - he is "home grown" out of one of our broodmares.

Edited to say it just occurred to me that you might be talking about the little black colt instead of the pinto yearling. If you are, he's not ours - he belongs to a friend and I have to agree with you - he's a good looking little fella.

fergie

Sep. 20, 2005, 07:24 PM

Wow, this is a really GOOD cat fight. Meow. Catnip anyone? I think that scientist, JB, he needs some. Science changes JB. There are no permanent rules. "Proper hoof form"? Acording to whose theories? Yours? What is correct "fact" today is wrong information tomorrow. There is also more than 1 way to do things. Personally, my horses feet are not shod that long, I believe in a different style for them, but they are not barefoot either. If you "listen", the horse always tells you when he/she is uncomfortable. It sounds to me like there are a lot of people who "listen" to their horses out there - some of them ASB people too! JB - you really are a "know it all". Maybe I just assumed you were a man because you act like one, an egotistical one, that is.... (oh my, that's a BIG word for me to use....)

LMH

Sep. 21, 2005, 04:09 AM

fergie-it isn't JB's theory-she has said that over and over...she has listed "whose" theory it is-just go back and read the posts.

blu-I appreciate your level headed response-I am quite sure it does seem arrogant to discount a vet's opinion-again as I suggested to others on this BB, you would be doing yourself a world of good to just look into what proper hoof form is....I have never expected one person to take "my" word for it.

What I have never understand is why people are hesitant to learn for themselves.

Years ago I suspected I had an EPSM-I looked into what to do and found Dr Valentine's site on adding fat-my vet did NOT agree with the level of fat she recommended as he was not familiar with her work...since then this has become accepted in the vet community-my vet suggests it and it is written about in mainstream magazines.

I only site this as example of how somethings can be slow to be accepted by the established vet world.

It takes people like Pollit and Bowker to pave the way.

Agree with me, don't agree with me but take an afternoon or a few hours and look into it yourself...

You might be surprised what you find. And I don't mean that in a rude fashion.

As the caretakers of these animals I feel we are responible for educating ourselves-

At the very least every owner should be able to answer the questions I listed for AH above...if you (big you not just you blu) can't, then it would be worth it finding the answers.

Sep. 21, 2005, 04:23 AM

Oh fergie-dear, you're pretty funny http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif It IS a "fact" that wild horses have exhibited pretty much the same hoof form for quite a long time now, and if you knew anything about any of the research done that supports this you'd understand. Where is the research stating that long/tall feet are fully functional and healthy? Read for comprehension - NOT my opinions or facts I have made up.

It's too bad so many owners implicitly trust their vets and farriers. It's BECAUSE OF my vet and farrier(CJF to boot, how's THAT for a "professional" who is supposed to know better?) that my TB got wedge pads and ended up with loooong toes and looong underrun heels - before I knew better. Perhaps if some people had to go around fixing what the "professional" screwed up, they'd be a wee bit passionate about the subject as well.

Apparently those who feel the taller/bigger/longer foot is just fine and perfectly normal don't feel the need to explain why, so that apparently means they don't have an explanation. But please, any time you feel the need, go right ahead, I'm QUITE interested in furthering my education of the real world.

CoolMeadows

Sep. 21, 2005, 06:12 AM

JB, I'm going to have to stick with it's not a fact that wild horses have the same hoof form the world over. Mustangs have short little nubs, the island horses have long oval feet and the desert horses have platter feet. The wild horses of Australia (http://www.brianstone.com.au/wildhorses/gallery_pages/gallery2.htm) appear to have taller feet. They're just not the same. Period.

slb

Sep. 21, 2005, 07:27 AM

Is there a particular pic in that group that shows the feet close enought to actually tell what they look like? Pollitt includes a brumby foot pic in his book and it is very similar to the US western Mustangs. The only difference is that the edges are not abraded into a mustang roll. This makes them appear slightly longer toed and "taller", but the overall hoof form is similar. The feet that we see on the Cumberland horses were overgrown, the feet that you saw on feral Arab horses were also overgrown. Those flares and long toes all self-trim...they break and chip off to leave a more balanced hoof. The hoof strives to maintain balance according to each horse's needs.

I agree, not all feet should be the same "shape", but that doesn't mean that balance and alignment should be ignored. If there is a broken back axis (and I saw this in every image of ASBs posted), if the white line is stretched to achieve a certain length toe or shape foot, then balance is compromised. Horses have all different shapes and sizes of feet, it is our/farrier's job to maintain balance in the foot, not to trim to human ideals and trends.

Some of the studies done on wild horse feet were not done just on those traving abrassive ground. Some were done on horses living on sofer terrains. The studies compared the live feet on feral horses from 3 different terrains...all were the same in balance and alignment. all had the same common elements to their feet...tight white line, well developed frog, heels at the widest part of the frog, point of breakover (not toe end) at a point located between the white line and the tip of the coffin bone.

They also utilized Duckett's Dot (http://www.horseshoes.com/advice/bumbaugh/duckettsdot.htm) in their studies and determined that those guidelines for balancing and aligning the domestic horse overlaid perfectly onto the feral horse foot.

The bottom line is that it isn't about gurus, books, cliques, methods, breeds or even environment. It is about function. Time tested and centuries of research have not provided any opposition to what a correctly balanced and aligned foot should be. The way to get there, the end shape of the hoof may differ, but not the balance. There are certain landmarks, cetain static points on the foot that indicate balance and alignement. If those are ignored, then the hoof will not function correctly, it will not provide the horse with a healthy, sound hoof and may even effect joints, back, shoulder, neck and hips.

Lookout already made this point...but I will repeat it....for every inch that the hoof grows down, it grows forward one inch. Thus, if the hoof is allowed to be primarily weight bearing (that is, the hoof wall is grown "longer" than a hair over the height of the sole plane, the hoof has also grown forward....forward of its optimal position under the horse...forward of the weight bearing position that the rest of the body is conformed for, forward of the postiion that keeps the phalangeal lever in optimal alignment, forward of the postion that keeps the navicular bone in alignment with the other structures within the hoof capsule, forward of the postiion that keeps the coffin bone in its correct spacial orientation within the hoof capsule.

The coffin bone must be suspended and correctly situated within the hoof capsule. You cannot manipulate the coffin bone, but you can manipulate the hoof capsule. If you correctly align the coffin bone and hoof capsule, then you have balance, if you don't, then you are likely to experience lameness. Try invisioning a coffin bone in a foot, if it is correctly aligned with the bones above it, will the hoof capsule match? That is the agreed upon "correct" balance for a hoof.

LMH

Sep. 21, 2005, 08:08 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CoolMeadows:
JB, I'm going to have to stick with it's not a fact that wild horses have the same hoof form the world over. Mustangs have short little nubs, the island horses have long oval feet and the desert horses have platter feet. The wild horses of Australia (http://www.brianstone.com.au/wildhorses/gallery_pages/gallery2.htm) appear to have taller feet. They're just not the same. Period. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In which photo are you seeing the feet are taller?

YankeeASB

Sep. 21, 2005, 08:15 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Originally posted by YankeeASB:
I'm not going to get into this because I realized a long time ago that you can't change the opinions of the opionated...

I just want to say to bludejavu- what a pretty baby!

THANK YOU!!! I'm proud of him - he is "home grown" out of one of our broodmares.

Edited to say it just occurred to me that you might be talking about the little black colt instead of the pinto yearling. If you are, he's not ours - he belongs to a friend and I have to agree with you - he's a good looking little fella. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They are BOTH very nice!

Aptor Hours

Sep. 21, 2005, 09:11 AM

lmh you need to go ride your horse more ....except in a strange twist of irony your horse isn't sound...yet our horses that are shod by the devil are http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif. Funny how some things work out isn't it http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

LMH

Sep. 21, 2005, 09:34 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aptor Hours:
lmh you need to go ride your horse more ....except in a strange twist of irony your horse isn't sound...yet our horses that are shod by the devil are http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif. Funny how some things work out isn't it http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I actually did ride today...thanks for being concerned

As far as your petty little comment... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif...how small of you to find joy and humor in the discomfort of someone else's animal just because you don't think the same as that person. That is just sick.

And if you ever read the posts you would know why this happened...not my doing and I am just doing my best to fix it.

I do hope you handle yourself better with your horses than you do with people.

Bottom line you have no idea do you? None.

At least I know what happened to my horse and am doing my best to fix it...you however just keep making nasties and live in your land of ignorance.

I can NOT believe you would say such a thing as that with a little smiley. Can you look yourself in the mirror?
I would never wish ill and enjoy it like that.

Sep. 21, 2005, 10:59 AM

Aptor Hours, man, you and others just cannot read for comprehension can you?

not
about
barefoot
vs
shod

not.

Like you have never had a horse with shoes turn up lame http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Edited to add the obvious that I forgot to state earlier - AH, that was one of the nastiest, most cold-hearted comments I've heard on this board in a long time. To take pleasure in an animal's problem is astonishing http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

badlove

Sep. 21, 2005, 11:04 AM

Unfortunately for this topic, the Saddlebred folks aren't being exactly represented by the creme of the crop -- maturity or skill wise...I can't say if this goes for "the other side" of the fence here, but at least you're doing better than a piss-poor job of explaining yourself.

Now that that is out on the table, all I have to ask is for you to direct your feelings of remorse towards me via message or any place not on this thread, just for the sake of clutter. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

That being said, I guess I'm all for the party of "neutral". I think work none PROPERLY on Saddlebreds can be fine...just as I think work done PROPERLY on barefoot-ers can be just as fine. I've seen a lot of animals lame and not lame from both methods.

I think it is important to know what you're looking at, but to be open and knowledge to other areas of farriery (not sure if I just made that term up). I know at least one person on here who has spouted off every argument imagineable but fails to realize her own horse's lameness problems in reality.

It might sound lame, but I honestly think it's reality. Hell, I've got no other way to explain the 15 year old gelding who showed padded up and weighted for 11 of those years. Maybe some horses are built to withstand the strain a little better than others.

LMH

Sep. 21, 2005, 11:22 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">That being said, I guess I'm all for the party of "neutral". I think work none PROPERLY on Saddlebreds can be fine...just as I think work done PROPERLY on barefoot-ers can be just as fine. I've seen a lot of animals lame and not lame from both methods. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Applause applause--I could not agree with you more.

I have said it before and I will repeat it again and again until it sticks-it is about hoof balance and the trim-NOT the shoe or lack thereof.

A bad trim is a bad trim-but at least if the horse is barefoot mother nature has SOME chance of correcting it over time...bad trim plus a nailed on shoe and things just get worse.

That has always been my point...nothing more and nothing less...I just take it a step further and realize the health of mine improved with the final removal of the steel.

But---there are just as many barefoot butchers out there causing pain as well...all in the name of natural-and that, my friends, is just as inexcuseable.

slb

Sep. 21, 2005, 11:24 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by badlove:
.... Maybe some horses are built to withstand the strain a little better than others. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I firmly believe this....in Peruvians, if their fetlocks were approaching the ground in a manner similar to the ones on the first links to show horse pics, they would be considered have DSLD or on the road to breakdown/DSLD. The same would be true for many other breeds also. Can you imagine a QH breeding seeing the fetlocks like that on one of their horses....they would freak. Actually, my friend (QH/Paint breeder) had an ASB in his barn for a short while...shortly after it arrived, he hauled me off to see it and asked if its legs were ok! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

So definately yes...there is a difference in which breeds can handle certain things like this and the fact that TWHs, Morgans, ASBs and other breeds can come off several years in stacks is a testiment to their hardiness.

Lookout

Sep. 21, 2005, 12:57 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aptor Hours:
lmh you need to go ride your horse more ....except in a strange twist of irony your horse isn't sound...yet our horses that are shod by the devil are http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif. Funny how some things work out isn't it http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know trying to steer this into a barefoot vs. shod argument enables you to ignore this:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by slb:
BTW.....taking an ethical postition as a "horse care" professional, this farrier will not shoe ASBs, Morgans or similar hores for show. He was trained in the application, but refuses to do the applications as it is contradictary to what he was taught as sound and beneficial trimming/shoeing practices.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

as though it were never said. I wouldn't want to deal with it either.

Aptor Hours

Sep. 21, 2005, 02:47 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JB:
Aptor Hours, man, you and others just cannot read for comprehension can you?

not
about
barefoot
vs
shod

not.

Like you have never had a horse with shoes turn up lame http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Edited to add the obvious that I forgot to state earlier - AH, that was one of the nastiest, most cold-hearted comments I've heard on this board in a long time. To take pleasure in an animal's problem is astonishing http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

jb read my original question. It was about growing foot nothing to do with all this stuff you guys have dragged in so why don't we all just STOP right here. I will do my thing and you go do your thing. Does that make you happy now? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Aptor Hours

Sep. 21, 2005, 02:52 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JB:
Aptor Hours, man, you and others just cannot read for comprehension can you?

not
about
barefoot
vs
shod

not.

Like you have never had a horse with shoes turn up lame http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Edited to add the obvious that I forgot to state earlier - AH, that was one of the nastiest, most cold-hearted comments I've heard on this board in a long time. To take pleasure in an animal's problem is astonishing http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your comment was stupid and you know it. Your just being a little beach and you are well aware of that. You can't be so blank minded that you think I was taking pleasure in lmh's poor lame horse you have less brains than even I can give you credit for. But as I said let's just end it here and I think I have all the information I will ever want regarding several posters point of view.

Let this lame, foundered, abcessed, poorly trimmed or shod thread die and die fast http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif

Loves ASBs

Sep. 21, 2005, 02:54 PM

While it pains me to add anything to this silly thread, I would like all to note I have deleted my earlier response. It was inappropriate and I have apologized to Tiffani for responding in a belittling manner. It was not my intent to personalize my statements to make her feel like I was attacking her -

Please let this absurd thread die... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

LMH

Sep. 21, 2005, 03:03 PM

I will bet money this is the FIRST time in JB's life she has ever been called a little BEACH.

Wowza.

Sep. 21, 2005, 05:39 PM

AH, no, your comments do not make me happy.

What will make me happy is you admitting that YOU have turned this into a barefoot vs shod thread because that seemed to be where you were comfortable, as opposed to politely discussing the pros and cons of the tradtional barefoot trimming vs untraditional trimming (shod or not). You and others continued to call "us" opinionated and arrogant and beaches and whatnot simply for indicating, based on fact and many many man-years of research, that the traditional ASB foot (and TWH and Halter QH) is not of correct form instead of politely discussing things. "We" have never in this thread resorted to name calling, "you" have. I guess "we" know who on this thread is insecure.

Or maybe it's like kindergarten - the boys are cruel to the girls they like because they'd never admit they like them http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

JackandMo

Sep. 22, 2005, 10:04 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by asb_own_me:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LMH:
I never realized how many ASB owners there were on COTH-and willing to post pictures---and all at training level.

How interesting http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How interesting. That I've been a member for over a year? Let me be the first to apologize for having a busy life that includes a successful career, a husband, and much time spent traveling and away at shows. How awful that I don't have nearly 7,000 posts. I'm obviously in the wrong for not spending more time on COTH. As far as being an outright bitch to people I don't know - seems like I could learn quite a bit from you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have nothing to add except that the above statement is some funny horse manure. Not as funny as SillyFilly's "I watch Law and Order" statement but funny just the same.
Funny enough to dribble some KoolAid on the keyboard funny.

I just realized I only have six posts...LOL!!!