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View Full Version : Spin off: Who wants to watch intro level? seriously



AnastasiaBeaverhousen
Oct. 17, 2011, 05:22 AM
my golf addict co-worker doesnt watch golf.
he hates watching it.

i have to confess that i love dressage and i do enjoy watching grand prix

but i dont go to the local shows cause no one rides above 2nd level and the idea of watching the same 10-15 people riding intro/training every time, well yawn.

i understand the people watching who have some emotional investment in it.

Bogey2
Oct. 17, 2011, 06:26 AM
then don't watch....there, problem solved.

2DogsFarm
Oct. 17, 2011, 06:57 AM
OTOH:
I do enjoy watching Intro & lower levels for the young (& not so) horses "getting it" and the new-to-dressage riders doing the same.

IMW(orthless)O there is a lot of not-so-nice to watch stuff happening at GP.
Horses jammed into a frame and cranked up riders.
Can we say Rollkur-esque?

But to each......
Peace Out, AB

Countrywood
Oct. 17, 2011, 07:11 AM
A low level hunter show is pretty boring too. A low level tennis match is pretty boring. So what? It is for the people particpating to get experience and get out there. And their family and friends are having a blast.

alibi_18
Oct. 17, 2011, 08:12 AM
At what level are you riding?

If your skills are higher than level 2 (higher level at shows surrending your area), then I would understand the yawning but if not, I would suggest you take some time and go watch some classes.

Lets say you are at training level, even if it looks boring, you could learn a lot by watching what is going on at your level or just a tad higher. Understanding mistakes, looking at scores afterward and find comparision with your own riding in order to have a better understanding of what the judges are looking for.

Sometime people are just not passionate enough to see what can be interresting and learn from others riding (both do's and don't) even at the lower levels.

shiningwizard255
Oct. 17, 2011, 10:15 AM
I agree that you can learn a lot by watching the lower level classes. All those Grand Prix horses and riders you so enjoy had to start at the lower levels themselves - it would have been really interesting and worthwhile to see the path they took to get to the Grand Prix level, what methods worked that allowed them to excel, what didn't and they had to change, etc. Just my opinion.

Gloria
Oct. 17, 2011, 10:43 AM
Depends. If you are watching them in a "show" mindset, as you wish to be wowed and thrilled, sure, low levels are rather boring; OK. GPs are rather boring, a selected few excepted.

If you are watching as if you were riding the tests, it gets rather interesting; you see a mistake, and thought, darn I make that same one; or thought, I wish I had done that piece better, and so on and so forth. One thing I start to realize is, training level is actually a tough one, much tougher than many realize, to do it right that is, and I'm not talking about just riding the darn patterns right.

JCS
Oct. 17, 2011, 10:44 AM
Why even post about this if it's so boring to you? I don't get the point of the post. The intro & training classes are for people and horses to gain experience. They're not really intended as a spectator sport.

amm2cd
Oct. 17, 2011, 11:02 AM
Yes, they are boring... So is tennis, golf, baseball and NASCAR, IMO.

I like watching the lower levels. It's educational. If I can see "Oh, that horse is falling out through the corners" or "Oh, THATS what my trainer/coach/whomever means by riding forward through the halt".

Watch and learn. Or go rent an action movie for entertainment.

lovey1121
Oct. 17, 2011, 11:42 AM
Watching intro anything generally is boring. So dont waste your time if you get nothing from it... go ride your horse on that Sat. or Sun., save your spectating for bigger shows, and watch videos of the experts.

That said, I'd rather be at a up-to-2nd lvl show than at a JV girl's LAX game...:rolleyes:

carolprudm
Oct. 17, 2011, 11:44 AM
Yes, they are boring... So is tennis, golf, baseball and NASCAR, IMO.
.
Add pro bowling to the list

Lost_at_C
Oct. 17, 2011, 11:49 AM
I dunno.... I think most of the fireworks happen below Second level! To me it's like watching soccer... 90 minutes of utter monotony, then Wham! someone scores a double-pirouette and levade at G. :winkgrin:

leilatigress
Oct. 17, 2011, 11:58 AM
Or in the case of our local show an itty bitty got through a test on an itty bitty mini who was none too pleased about flowers much less a judge in a white box. We also had a fantastic flying lead change at the canter (looked like a damn freight train coming to the judge's box). I LOVE watching the lower levels, it's the kids getting it and the horses figuring it out. You can see the aha moments when they nail the stretchy circle or the smile when the hot horse actually transitioned to the trot before running the judge over. (I for the record was hiding behind the judge for the freight train.)

Puddin Pie
Oct. 17, 2011, 12:18 PM
And for those of us coming back down the levels with a rehab horse, even though I have shown a whole lot higher, it was way cool to nail all of our transitions and get it right at Intro B. We showed his weekend and had a great time at Intro, even with the scary straw maze, large hanging spiders etc.

netg
Oct. 17, 2011, 12:54 PM
I dunno.... I think most of the fireworks happen below Second level! To me it's like watching soccer... 90 minutes of utter monotony, then Wham! someone scores a double-pirouette and levade at G. :winkgrin:

You've been watching me!!!! :)

jumpytoo
Oct. 17, 2011, 01:01 PM
I went to watch a schooling show last weekend. I looked at the ride times and test and there was a bucket load or Intro and training riders..my comment to hubby was.. "If I was judging, my eyes would be bleeding by the end of the day"

We got there, sat down and spent a couple hours watching and scoring rides and discussing trips between rides and what our thoughts were as far as one trip over another. We had a good time, it was entertaining and educational.. I wish my daughter had come too. Luckily, we could leave when we had out fill.

We'll do again when another show is nearby (and we are not entered)

Heinz 57
Oct. 17, 2011, 02:04 PM
Me.

Why?

'Cuz it's harder to screw up an Intro test, and I'd rather watch squiggley center lines and egg shaped circles all day long than stiff, tense attempts at more 'exciting' movements. :D

smokygirl
Oct. 17, 2011, 02:16 PM
it's kinda like little league. Unless you are personally involved.. it's not as exciting as watching the world series. That's ok.

NJRider
Oct. 17, 2011, 03:32 PM
I cannot stand to watch BAD and/or unsafe riding, bad equitation, rough hands, feet all the way through the stirrups, flopping around, etc. And you can see this at Intro and up. Which begs the question as to why are these people at a show? I don't care if it is only a schooling show. When I was growing up equitation and horsemanship was a source of pride. You simply learned how to ride a horse, walk, trot, canter and had the basics down before you ever thought about showing.
There are a lot of people that show that are seriously afraid of horses. The other day a gal was in the warm up and her horse started jigging and she literally started screaming bloody murder like she was being stabbed...this was a 50 year old woman. You feel sorry for someone with such fear but that is why I won't go to these local shows. If someone is so afraid and cannot control their horse then that really creates a bad situation.
I love to watch any level- quality riding or people on the right track are a pleasure to watch.

Velvet
Oct. 17, 2011, 04:11 PM
Boring? Well, yeah, but so is football! Seriously, run a few feet, body slam each other, then stand around and talk about it and wait for the commercials to be over before making another attempt. :rolleyes: But that doesn't mean other people don't want to watch either one. :lol:

CosMonster
Oct. 17, 2011, 05:23 PM
Personally, I find watching any level pretty boring after awhile. Freestyles are the only interesting ones. :winkgrin: I mean, even at GP at a larger show you're just watching the same thing over and over again, and most of the horses are pretty average (for the level, I'm not saying I would kick a GP horse out of my barn :D).

In that regard, I find watching lower level tests more interesting because I can see more. I've schooled through the FEI levels (I guess that's the right way to say that) but I'm not solid enough in them to be able to effectively critique other rides beyond the obvious. But at the lower levels I can really tell what is happening and see the nuances. And watching good trainers ride young horses is fascinating to me--I like seeing how they deal with misbehavior and rambunctiousness. You see that at the lower levels.

And yeah, it doesn't even really matter because the lower levels aren't intended to be a spectator sport. That's why they're not generally televised or held in the evenings at huge shows with expensive tickets. ;)

kinnip
Oct. 17, 2011, 05:35 PM
Volunteer to scribe for those low levels. I promise you'll learn something.

rugbygirl
Oct. 17, 2011, 05:48 PM
Only if the horses are clean and shiny and pretty. Otherwise BORING.

I DO Intro level. I have to watch lots of Intro level schooling during lessons. I see lots. Without pretty shiny horsies to capture my attention, I can't think of anything more boring.

I seriously doubt that any show management team has ever really been challenged in putting on a low-level show by something like "inadequate spectator seating." Just not a factor. It's not a spectator sport. As a competitor, if I notice the spectators in an Intro test, I'd usually rather they'd gone over to watch something else.

Sort of like how community soccer and ball parks have pretty limited (if any) seating. Nobody likes to watch mini-soccer unless one of the kids is theirs. It would actually probably arouse considerable suspicion to find a random adult spectating at a mini-soccer game...people would assume that if you didn't have a kid playing, you must have some kind of bizarre nefarious motive for being there. Never would it dawn on someone that a grown person would want to "learn something" watching the absolute lowest, simplest, worst-played soccer on the planet.

Bogey2
Oct. 17, 2011, 05:52 PM
Boring? Well, yeah, but so is football! Seriously, run a few feet, body slam each other, then stand around and talk about it and wait for the commercials to be over before making another attempt. But that doesn't mean other people don't want to watch either one.
__________________

excellent analogy, I can't watch football because I totally don't get it. Same with soccer the original football:D

ise@ssl
Oct. 17, 2011, 05:53 PM
Actually it a thrill and very rewarding as a Breeder to SEE my "kids" out there for the first time at a show with either our rider or their new owner.

If you don't want to watch - DON'T.

Velvet
Oct. 17, 2011, 07:38 PM
excellent analogy, I can't watch football because I totally don't get it. Same with soccer the original football:D

Well, at least soccer has a lot of cute guys in shorts! :D That can hold my attention for a little longer than football. ;)

katarine
Oct. 17, 2011, 07:45 PM
Irregardless is not a word.

So, anyway, one of the cutest rides yesterday was someone's 5 YO doing a little walk trot 'pattern' on the BM's ancient spotted horse. Very cute.

If you hate watching low level riders, it's ok if you don't go. After all, you may be one of those riders who think dressage is putting a snaffle in a horse's mouth. We won't miss you, I promise.

Roll Tide ;)

kinnip
Oct. 17, 2011, 08:01 PM
Irregardless is not a word.

So, anyway, one of the cutest rides yesterday was someone's 5 YO doing a little walk trot 'pattern' on the BM's ancient spotted horse. Very cute.

If you hate watching low level riders, it's ok if you don't go. After all, you may be one of those riders who think dressage is putting a snaffle in a horse's mouth. We won't miss you, I promise.

Roll Tide ;)

All but the last phrase, I love you!

lovey1121
Oct. 17, 2011, 11:43 PM
Irregardless is not a word.

So, anyway, one of the cutest rides yesterday was someone's 5 YO doing a little walk trot 'pattern' on the BM's ancient spotted horse. Very cute.

If you hate watching low level riders, it's ok if you don't go. After all, you may be one of those riders who think dressage is putting a snaffle in a horse's mouth. We won't miss you, I promise.

Roll Tide ;)


All but the last phrase, I love you!

And I hate you both. Go Hokies! Gobble gobble.

Sandy M
Oct. 18, 2011, 10:33 AM
Okay. I showed my greenie Intro about four times, then moved on to TL. He's still SOMETIMES a basket case (70% one show and 57% the next) because he's somewhat hot and easily upset at new places. Sigh. Still, I think (hope? LOL), I'm enough in control to do TL. Never felt any embarassment at showing Intro to expose him.

As for watching Intro, well.....I wouldn't want to watch it all day, but having shown through 2nd and schooled 3rd, and ridden higher level horses.... Intro is more RELEVANT to me with a green horse. Higher levels are more entertaining, but Intro/TL are more helpful. Doesn't help me to watch someone execute a beautiful canter zig-zag at 4th/PSG when I'm struggling with schooling canter/trot transitions on the diagonal or balancing for that 10m half circle turn onto the centerline. I even see some BNTs showing super-greenies Intro, and watching them more closely helps me address issues I am dealing with by seeing how they deal with them.

mbm
Oct. 18, 2011, 09:48 PM
Irregardless of the level, I cannot stand to watch BAD and/or unsafe riding, bad equitation, rough hands, feet all the way through the stirrups, flopping around, etc. And you can see this at Intro and up. Which begs the question as to why are these people at a show? I do't care if it is only a schooling show. When I was growing up equitation and horsemanship was a source of pride. You simply learned how to ride a horse, walk, trot, canter and had the basics down before you ever thought about showing.
There are a lot of people that show that are seriously afraid of horses. The other day a gal was in the warm up and her horse started jigging and she literally started screaming bloody murder like she was being stabbed...this was a 50 year old woman. You feel sorry for someone with such fear but that is why I won't go to these local shows. If someone is so afraid and cannot control their horse then that really creates a bad situation.
I love to watch any level- quality riding or people on the right track are a pleasure to watch.

Dear COTH, this is october 2011, where is the LIKE button when a girl needs it?

eta PS to the grammarians - i know it makes you feel all high and mighty but really? LAME-O!!

katarine
Oct. 18, 2011, 09:54 PM
MBM, irregardless is ignorant and lazy. Kinda like riding a low level horse in a pelham and calling it dressage :) Some think it's just fine, others, notso much!

mbm
Oct. 18, 2011, 10:04 PM
calling out others grammatical errors, on a non grammarian bb is lame. its just one of those "gotcha!" things people do who want to feel important - or anyway that is the thesis of an author of the NYT who went off about it once.

Xfactor
Oct. 19, 2011, 07:22 AM
The very nature of the thread is exactly why I have a love/hate relationship with dressage.

As a form of training, I adore it. Showing ...not so much, and for the reasons stated or implied above.

Not every rider rode as a child or teen or was able to buy a finished horse. Some took on horses later in life when "getting it" is a greater challenge. Some have more difficult or super hot horses but it's what they have.

Some horses school beautifully at home and fall apart in the ring until they get used to the routine. Intro is the best and only way I know of, to get past that.

Is it always pretty to watch? No. So don't.

I recall watching a handsome 20something year old guy on a hot as hades grey mare, starting their intro. OMG it was going south faster than my inlaws in January...I thought he'd be called out before he even got her IN the arena.
It was not the prettiest test, but I was happy watching and seeing him get her to settle in and calm down, and the whole "crowd" (all 10 of us...lol) cheered for him when he finished.

Maybe the intros could be scheduled at the very end of the day so all the special people can go home and not have to see us in their midst. =)

quietann
Oct. 19, 2011, 08:59 AM
Xfactor, thanks for saying that. You see everything at Intro, every kind of horse and every kind of rider. I don't think anyone riding Intro thinks they are "ready for prime time" -- which is why there's Intro, and why it's unrecognized.

rugbygirl
Oct. 19, 2011, 10:22 AM
Irregardless is not a word.

That's debatable. It appears in several leading English-language dictionaries, with various descriptions. It is notably omitted from some other resources.

Since the people using irregardless are usually trying to affect an intelligent-sounding argument to something they don't understand very well, and the people who correct them are usually pompous pseudo-intellectuals intent on proving that they are not only arguing from a superior logical position but from an entirely higher plane of intelligence completely I'm not really sure who deserves the virtual slap. I wouldn't deliver said slap, in any case, not being a pompous pseudo-intellectual myself.


>>>I WILL deliver a virtual slap to myself for the ridiculous construction of the above paragraph, however. They only made me take one half-semester course in English at University. On Technical Writing. For engineers.

CFFarm
Oct. 19, 2011, 10:30 AM
That's debatable. It appears in several leading English-language dictionaries, with various descriptions. It is notably omitted from some other resources.

Since the people using irregardless are usually trying to affect an intelligent-sounding argument to something they don't understand very well, and the people who correct them are usually pompous pseudo-intellectuals intent on proving that they are not only arguing from a superior logical position but from an entirely higher plane of intelligence completely I'm not really sure who deserves the virtual slap. I wouldn't deliver said slap, in any case, not being a pompous pseudo-intellectual myself.


>>>I WILL deliver a virtual slap to myself for the ridiculous construction of the above paragraph, however. They only made me take one half-semester course in English at University. On Technical Writing. For engineers.

Don't worry. Language is not static. It changes all the time. If enough people use it, and it seems to be well on it's way, it will become "approved". You are just ahead of your time.

katarine
Oct. 19, 2011, 10:44 AM
Good heavens. It's not a word. I would be embarrassed for you if you used it in a business meeting. The same embarrassment would apply if you were walking around with spinach in your teeth. Wouldn't you want someone to tell you? I just thought you might want to know.

That wasn't a slap, not even a love pat. It was just a statement of fact. No emotional baggage or pseudo intellectual battery was implied, intended, or inferred, regardless of how the Gentle Reader attempted to spin it into a tempest.

rugbygirl
Oct. 19, 2011, 11:02 AM
I would be embarrassed for you if you used it in a business meeting.

I would be embarrassed for anyone who sat in a business meeting and was disengaged from the point sufficiently to start picking on grammar. Particularly a point of usage that is controversial. Controversial for a usage debate, at any rate.

Read my previous post carefully though, see if you can catch my major theme. I'm not the one defending the use of "irregardless" in any setting.

rugbygirl
Oct. 19, 2011, 11:09 AM
Maybe the intros could be scheduled at the very end of the day so all the special people can go home and not have to see us in their midst. =) someone else can get up early and I can sleep in? :lol:

katarine
Oct. 19, 2011, 11:15 AM
I said I would be embarrassed for the speaker. Where did I infer I would say anything to them in the meeting? Here the speaker has the relative safety and anonymity of the internet. Learning here and now ...oh, wow, oops, good to know- is much safer and less embarrassing than making up a word in a meeting. That is what I meant to convey, my apologies if I was unclear.

My point is this, if I am making up words and/or misusing them, I want to know. For the longest time I wanted to pronounce 'vehemently' incorrectly: it's much more fun (IMO) to say 'veh HE mently' than it is to say it properly as 'Vee-eh-mently' - I stumbled over it a few times and was glad- but embarrassed- to be kindly corrected. Let me know about the spinach in my teeth, no problem. I'd rather know than not.

PaulaM
Oct. 19, 2011, 11:26 AM
Regardless of grammatical correctness; it truly has no bearing on this post.

Everybody has to start in their sport at some point, you can not exactly go out there the first time and do a perfect Grand Prix test. Shows are held and offer classes at the level that can actively be supported by the local community. There is a simple solution out there, don’t go watch. Do not belittle others who are riding at this level or supporting those shows. There is a saying out there “Piss or get off the pot”. You want to see riders above second level at these shows, get out there and do it than.

mp
Oct. 19, 2011, 11:33 AM
Who wants to watch intro level? seriously

Who thinks dressage -- other than the Olympics and some of the European championships -- is a spectator sport?

seriously ...

cowboymom
Oct. 19, 2011, 12:24 PM
Regardless of grammatical correctness; it truly has no bearing on this post.

Everybody has to start in their sport at some point, you can not exactly go out there the first time and do a perfect Grand Prix test. Shows are held and offer classes at the level that can actively be supported by the local community. There is a simple solution out there, don’t go watch. Do not belittle others who are riding at this level or supporting those shows. There is a saying out there “Piss or get off the pot”. You want to see riders above second level at these shows, get out there and do it than.

Actually, IMO, the grammar discussion was much more productive and intellectual than the original whine.

Maybe if the OP was bringing something more than an idle disparaging opinion an offhand grammar lesson wouldn't have been added to the discussion.

mp
Oct. 19, 2011, 12:31 PM
I said I would be embarrassed for the speaker.

Right up there with "just between you and I." :p

Call me a snob, but when I hear incorrect grammar, I cringe for the speaker just a little. But, no, I don't say anything. That would be rude.

PS -- I'd say the grammar discussion is more interesting than the original post. But I can't see it. ;)

carolprudm
Oct. 19, 2011, 01:33 PM
Right up there with "just between you and I." :p

Call me a snob, but when I hear incorrect grammar, I cringe for the speaker just a little. But, no, I don't say anything. That would be rude.

PS -- I'd say the grammar discussion is more interesting than the original post. But I can't see it. ;)
Sometimes good grammar really matters. You are more likely to use good grammar if you practice it even when it's not as important.

I used to write and edit FAQ's for a software publisher. You would not believe some of the crap people wrote.
Irregardless does make me cringe.

Gloria
Oct. 19, 2011, 03:10 PM
OK. You all got me extremely curious so I had to pull out my Kindle and find out what exactly "irregardless" is. I had assumed that was a simiple typo, which I apparently was wrong. You all need to forgive me my ignorance. English isn't my native language - my third one to be exact. Anyway, according to "the New Oxford American Dictionary, 'irregardless' is an informal use of regardless.... probably arising under the influence of such perfectly correct forms as irrespective. Irregardless is avoided by careful users of English..."

So as far as I can tell, it is a word, just not to be used in formal setting, which, I dare say BB isn't one of them. If you want to be correct, none of abbreviations (BNT, PP, TB, ASB, BB, etc) should be used in any formal setting and yet we see them everywhere.

So, can we leave grammar lessons to high school lectures?

katarine
Oct. 19, 2011, 03:48 PM
I don't know, Gloria. How old is the poster who wrote 'irregardless'? LOL

mp
Oct. 19, 2011, 03:57 PM
So, can we leave grammar lessons to high school lectures?

Judging by the bad writing and poor spoken English I'm exposed to every day, I doubt grammar is taught anymore in high school. Or anywhere else, for that matter.

But good for you for learning three languages. I only know 1-1/2. (I can read Spanish, but don't speak it very well.)

PS -- I've never cared much for the New Oxford. Merriam-Webster is a better source for usage, IMO.

Irregardless originated in dialectal American speech in the early 20th century. Its fairly widespread use in speech called it to the attention of usage commentators as early as 1927. The most frequently repeated remark about it is that “there is no such word.” There is such a word, however. It is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found from time to time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance. Use regardless instead.

danceronice
Oct. 19, 2011, 04:00 PM
Who thinks dressage -- other than the Olympics and some of the European championships -- is a spectator sport?

seriously ...

I used it as an example with my dance teacher. We were talking about International Standard (waltz/tango/viennese waltz/slow foxtrot/quickstep), which is done entirely in closed hold, involves a LOT of techincalities in judging, has a limited repertoire of steps (serious Standard people can start a discussion about how to release TOE PRESSURE.) If you're into it, watching it can be fun. If you aren't (like dancers who do the other three styles) it can be like paint trying. My teacher said how it's a little more internal and more about doing than watching.

My first thought: "Oh, it's like dressage!" (Teacher's stepmother owns a barn, so he sort of gets this kind of analogy.)

I did dressage mostly with my old OTTB. DOING it even at our baby TL was fun and good for him and me and improved many things (rather like dancing Standard improves my Smooth.) WATCHING it, or worse, dragging non-horsey friends to watch it? Watching paint dry on grass growing through cracks in setting concrete. Dressage to me is DOING. I'm dinking around with the intro/pre-training/barely-qualifies-as-dressage stuff with Lucky. I would really not want to sit through hours of watching someone else do it. I like the musical freestyle because of the variety, but otherwise, give me a choice of watching even 3rd+ dressage being done, or riding myself, I'll go for the latter.

You don't want to watch an intro show,fine. I don't either. I don't like sitting and watching pre-bronze Standard dancers. But I don't begrudge that they HAVE the classes, because you have to start somewhere. I'm sure people were bored sick watching my TL tests with old OTTB. But I'm glad I rode them anyway.

rugbygirl
Oct. 19, 2011, 04:07 PM
I like watching my friends' tests. Well..."like"...I enjoy supporting my friends by cheering loud encouragement at parts where I know it won't distract them. And shutting up obnoxious railbirds who make negative-sounding comments with a "aren't they progressing great? I LOVE this pair!"

While sitting watching intro, I find that the coaches are often far more entertaining. There are a few real prizes in our area...I'd pay admission to see some of those meltdowns. EPIC.

judge: "I had to excuse the horse, he's PACKING A LEG."
coach: "That's just how he goes, he's FINE."
judge: "THE RIDER FELL OFF."
coach: "Are you discriminating against our barn because we aren't famous? I'll have your card!"

etc.

danceronice
Oct. 19, 2011, 07:57 PM
judge: "I had to excuse the horse, he's PACKING A LEG."
coach: "That's just how he goes, he's FINE."
judge: "THE RIDER FELL OFF."
coach: "Are you discriminating against our barn because we aren't famous? I'll have your card!"

etc.

:lol: I think a video montage would be a best-seller...(Or a mashup with the Black Knight. "'Tis but a scratch!" "Your arm's off!")

Velvet
Oct. 19, 2011, 08:21 PM
Irregardless is not a word.



Neither is incentivize, but it's now so popular they put it in the dictionary. Which, by the way, I no longer think is relevant for identifying if a word is real or not. ;)

mbm
Oct. 19, 2011, 08:37 PM
you grammarians really are a bunch of old fuddie duddies... who cares if people make up words, use bad syntax etc?

its a frickin' BB for petes sake!

in my hey day i made up words all the time... its fun :) and if words weren't made up we would still be speaking - oh i dont know... whatever language they spoke back before history started.... altho - i am not sure what we would do with all the new things and ideas that have come into existence.... perhaps we would just have to make do with the original x number of grunts that the cave folks used?

this thread reminds me when i used "USians" to mean folks from the US , and boy did that erupt! lol!

NJRider
Oct. 19, 2011, 08:43 PM
Dear COTH, this is october 2011, where is the LIKE button when a girl needs it?

eta PS to the grammarians - i know it makes you feel all high and mighty but really? LAME-O!!

Gee, had no idea the post I scratched together had so much effect (that is effect, not affect which is a common error people make). I corrected not only the offensive word but also made a spelling correction which for some odd reason, went unnoticed.
I have scribed a lot (two words, not one; many people make this mistake) and have never once heard a judge complain about watching Intro. Have heard plenty moan and groan at bad riding or being rough on the horse. It never really seems to show up in the score because if the horse is a saint, they may still get a decent score.

mp
Oct. 20, 2011, 10:48 AM
Neither is incentivize, but it's now so popular they put it in the dictionary. Which, by the way, I no longer think is relevant for identifying if a word is real or not. ;)

Whether a word is real or not isn't the issue. F*ck is in the dictionary, and it's also popular. But it isn't considered acceptable to use (in verbal or written form) in many situations.

Languages constantly change. If they're not changing, they're dead. Hence, if you pick up a Latin/English dictionary published 50 years ago, it will be identical to one published in 2011.

Just about any dictionary can be used for spelling, definitions and pronunciation. That information is usually indisputable. Usage, however, IS disputable.

Hence, my suggestion that Merriam-Webster is a better source for usage than the New World or New Oxford. I have compared dictionaries because I've been writing for a living for a long, long time. And it will be a cold day in hell when I use "incentivize" or even "prioritize" in anything a client is paying me for.

rugbygirl
Oct. 20, 2011, 12:22 PM
And it will be a cold day in hell when I use "incentivize" or even "prioritize" in anything a client is paying me for.

I have found that it is most effective to set aside my personal opinions on language and usage for written communication in the business world. I am early in my career and it pays little to choose battles over language. You only have a limited "bank account" of contradiction, directly proportional to your level of experience and skill. I may be bold, but I am also bright. I will not argue a point of language when this is a group where I am going to have to save my contradiction for something like a flawed workflow.

Jargon is a necessary evil with some audiences. :no:

mp
Oct. 20, 2011, 12:40 PM
I have found that it is most effective to set aside my personal opinions on language and usage for written communication in the business world. I am early in my career and it pays little to choose battles over language. You only have a limited "bank account" of contradiction, directly proportional to your level of experience and skill. I may be bold, but I am also bright. I will not argue a point of language when this is a group where I am going to have to save my contradiction for something like a flawed workflow.

Jargon is a necessary evil with some audiences. :no:

Unless you're referring to technical terms that describe specific things, jargon is the refuge of those who are too lazy to communicate with precision, don't know what they're talking about or are simply not bright enough to know HOW to communicate well.

The test is whether the speaker or writer can explain what he means in plain words -- and I will guarantee you that 90% of the time, he can't.

I'm not new to the business world. And I don't argue about language -- people usually come to me to settle the arguments. ;) If you are bright and can express your ideas with clarity, you won't have to argue much either.

Because it isn't about personal preference -- it's about communicating clearly. Trust me on that one.

amm2cd
Oct. 20, 2011, 12:56 PM
Unless you're referring to technical terms that describe specific things, jargon is the refuge of those who are too lazy to communicate with precision, don't know what they're talking about or are simply not bright enough to know HOW to communicate well.

The test is whether the speaker or writer can explain what he means in plain words -- and I will guarantee you that 90% of the time, he can't.

I'm not new to the business world. And I don't argue about language -- people usually come to me to settle the arguments. ;) If you are bright and can express your ideas with clarity, you won't have to argue much either.

Because it isn't about personal preference -- it's about communicating clearly. Trust me on that one.

As an engineer, people tend to call it jargon when they dont get it ("Yeah, yeah, yeah Now explaing it without the jargon" "Well, gravity is the force that keeps us on the ground"). It's pretty obvious when someone uses words to sound smart without knowing what it actually means. Dont get me started on misuse of statistics....

rugbygirl
Oct. 20, 2011, 02:00 PM
^ oh, I 100% understand why jargon ends up being used. No arguments from me there.

Besides the fact that it can take a totally on-point, concise presentation point to an ambiguous and valueless sentence fragment...people seem to get irrationally attached to certain jargon-y words. :no: In my line of work, I tend to find that people are pretty solid in their technical communications...but much less sure about anything to do with organizational sturcture or *gasp* human behavior. They degrade into meaningless drivel when trying to communicate "human-y" things. Insisting on using some form of "incentivize" to wrap up a proposed non-solution for a lack of motivation in the workforce, for example. If we can just incentivize those employees with this totally meaningless policy and non-reward...that avoids us having to have any kind of meaningful interaction where we might have to look at leadership behaviors that are driving that lack of motivation. HR and Business Jargon lets you consider employees and customers in completely abstract, faceless entities! Dealing with actual humans is skeery! :mad: Whoops, sorry. Is my current level of job dissatisfaction showing?

People usually love reading my reports, and I get feedback all the time about how I can describe technical concepts quickly and in a way that conveys quality understanding. On the other hand, sometimes I'm preparing a report or presentation that someone else will deliver. And they want their favourite crutch words distributed throughout. *sigh*

Many, many people do not appreciate the value of quality communication. Many more people will go to obscene lengths to avoid engaging in quality communication.

PaulaM
Oct. 21, 2011, 01:10 PM
This is actually very entertaining to me as of late. I am back in school on a part time basis after 20+ years. This term, I am taking two courses: Business Computing and Communications.

Business Computing is a breeze at this point, am really looking forward to the next couple modules as there is an introduction to 2 programs that I very rarely use in the work place.

Communications, although looked like an easy course on paper, has turned out to be very challenging. We have numerous assignments, including
summarization of two essays, a 900 word in class expository essay and the upcoming assignment of a persuasive essay. We also will have the opportunity to revise one of our two essays. I really am starting to dread having to write the persuasive essay.

Having to review grammar in class has been very eye opening: punctuation rules, comma splices, common word errors. I am actually enjoying it. It is quite a bit of work, but I believe in the long run will be well worth the effort.

mp
Oct. 21, 2011, 02:58 PM
Besides the fact that it can take a totally on-point, concise presentation point to an ambiguous and valueless sentence fragment...people seem to get irrationally attached to certain jargon-y words. :no: In my line of work, I tend to find that people are pretty solid in their technical communications...but much less sure about anything to do with organizational sturcture or *gasp* human behavior. They degrade into meaningless drivel when trying to communicate "human-y" things. Insisting on using some form of "incentivize" to wrap up a proposed non-solution for a lack of motivation in the workforce, for example. If we can just incentivize those employees with this totally meaningless policy and non-reward...that avoids us having to have any kind of meaningful interaction where we might have to look at leadership behaviors that are driving that lack of motivation. HR and Business Jargon lets you consider employees and customers in completely abstract, faceless entities! Dealing with actual humans is skeery! :mad: Whoops, sorry. Is my current level of job dissatisfaction showing?

Hang in there, rugby girl. You may not be in a place right now that values good communication (which, to me, is simply taking the time to THINK before you send/submit/whatever. ;)). But you will be at some point.

Keep fighting the good fight and someone will notice. :yes:

Jazzy's mom
Oct. 23, 2011, 04:57 PM
I enjoy watching the lower levels within the context of comparing trainers. If you see horses who are under a certain trainer who consistently show the correct training scale it would encourage me to take lessons from that trainer. If their students are correct in posture and light with their aids it shows the trainer is doing his/her job. OTOH if riders are unbalanced, pulling on their horses and the horses are very back to front, the trainer they use I would stay away from.

Many moons ago I sat with an aquaintance who also is a successful breeder in my area. SHe had a young horse who was cutting his teeth in a dressage schooling show. Her humorous and slightly snarky running commentary had me in stitches that afternoon. Of course she also wasn't the one riding the young horse...

TemJeito
Oct. 23, 2011, 06:45 PM
Where did I infer I would say anything to them in the meeting?

My point is this, if I am making up words and/or misusing them, I want to know.

Is this a test? Surely, you realize the word is imply, not infer.

I enjoy watching dressage, but I realize for most people it's about as fascinating as competitive Tai Chi (and, yes, there is such a thing) :D

jenm
Oct. 23, 2011, 07:03 PM
As someone who is currently only riding Intro, I don't even ask friends or family to come watch, however, I do appreciate the cheers I get at the end of my test when people I know do come watch because they know how far my horse and I have come.

If my horse and I were good enough to ride freestyle, I would feel better about inviting people to come because even non horsey people can enjoy the music. :)

I do however, find the OPs comment a bit insulting. We may only be riding Intro, but it's a big deal to us.

Oh, and put me on the list of people who are annoyed by the use of "irregardless". It bothers me that it is used so much it was eventually added to the dictionary...

SillyHorse
Oct. 23, 2011, 09:51 PM
Where did I infer I would say anything to them in the meeting?

My point is this, if I am making up words and/or misusing them, I want to know.


Is this a test? Surely, you realize the word is imply, not infer.
This is just hilarious! :lol:

SnicklefritzG
Oct. 23, 2011, 11:44 PM
I would find it interesting to watch Intro level and then try to mark the movements and place the horses myself, then compare to the actual results.