Non Samber WB Pinto Stallions [Archive]

Cartier

Dec. 9, 2004, 02:40 AM

Pat,

When I saw that you had posted to this thread I almost spit my coffee across the keyboard… you’re an evil little rascal… http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

But sure, someone could take one of those colored mares we saw, present them to one of the OLD registries (hope that they get approved to the Main Mare Book), and then breed them to a good (world class) solid colored WB stallion, hope for a well conformed colored foal and VIOLA! ... you’d have a whole new colored bloodline - with hopefully an improved phenotype. This does shine a huge spotlight on the power of one individual Inspector or Breeding Director to say that a given mare is approved to a registry's Main Mare Book, be the mare Tina or some other mare.

Personally, I think the phenotypes of those mares you and I saw the other day are not what the OLD registries are looking for, so it would be difficult getting them approved. And, there is no guarantee what-so-ever that they would produce color... so the breeder could be waiting years for the colored foal... and they aren’t tobiano, they are overo sabinos (I think that is what they are called).

Now, if a breeder has deep pockets and multi-generational goals, it might be a fun project... but you'd have to ask yourself if the phenotype is what WB registries are looking for? And with those mares, I think the answer is probably, "No." And then of course, the breeder would have to put a few of them out with really good trainers/riders to prove what the bloodline can do in competition. And, it’s difficult to get the top riders interested in a colored horse (many will run screaming). So, you’d be pushing a huge rock up a steep hill... at the very least, I think it would take some time. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

rue

Dec. 9, 2004, 05:11 AM

I just went on Maxamillion's website and saw that he was entered into RPSI studbook II and that his foals are eligible for 1/2 brand with them.

I think he's a nice stallion. It seems like her main registry is this TASHR registry so maybe it doesn't really matter if he's approved or not approved by other registries. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

showjumpers66

Dec. 9, 2004, 05:14 AM

Again stud book II, but 2 generations of approved sires.

http://www.cocolallacreeksporthorses.com/sport_horses_escalade.html

http://www.cocolallacreeksporthorses.com/sport_horses_radikal.html

Cartier

Dec. 9, 2004, 05:22 AM

I agree with you Rue.

For those who resist the registries (because of all the crappola involved), there are many well bred, athletic stallions with superb Sporthorse phenotypes and the ability to produce good foals. And, as we all know, there are approved stallions who produce junk (which is why some registries pull licensing based on foal crops). Bottom line, it does not hurt to be open-minded. Really!

rue

Dec. 9, 2004, 05:49 AM

I don't understand. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Color, for the Samber line, came through his dam, Tina.

Where did Tina's color come from?

Her sire was a chestnut Dutch Warmblood and her dam (Astrid D) was a Dutch Warmblood with no color listed on the pedigree site. I would think Astrid D was a pinto colored mare who was fully approved by the Dutch Warmblood registry. Looking back through her dam line, there is a mare listed by the name of Karroll, who is a Gronigen mare, with her sire listed as a Holsteiner but Karrol's dam line is listed "unknown".

If the color came through Tina's dam line, what breed of horse threw the pinto coloration? I would assume the color came through Tina's grandam, Karroll, on her "unknown" dam line.

So how does the European registries (any of the warmblood registries) decide when to allow in horses of color and when not to? Or is it arbitrary?

camohn

Dec. 9, 2004, 05:57 AM

We are on the multigenrational uphill climb http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif for a totally different pinto outcross to the Samber and Ico families.
I started with a Paint/TB cross mare who competed at the Washington International and was an upper level event mare. She ain't your average stockhorse Paint. I now have her pinto granddaughter who is coming 3. So.....the filly is currently 12.5% Stock Paint, 12.5% TB and the rest WB. Her WB pedigree includes Sandro, Greenhorn, FuriosoII and Inschallah. In the spring she is being bred to a very modern and fancy Donnerhall/World CupI/Fabriano bred stallion. I think we will get a very fancy and totally different bloodline pinto stallion prospect in the next generation or 2. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.The mareline has been presented for Old/ISR inspection the last 3 generations and gotten around 7.5s (ISR papers w/ the Paint in the Pedigree).

Cartier

Dec. 9, 2004, 05:57 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Color, for the Samber line, came through his dam, Tina.

Where did Tina's color come from?

Her sire was a chestnut Dutch Warmblood and her dam (Astrid D) was a Dutch Warmblood with no color listed on the pedigree site. I would think Astrid D was a pinto colored mare who was fully approved by the Dutch Warmblood registry. Looking back through her dam line, there is a mare listed by the name of Karroll, who is a Gronigen mare, with her sire listed as a Holsteiner but Karrol's dam line is listed "unknown".

If the color came through Tina's dam line, what breed of horse threw the pinto coloration? I would assume the color came through Tina's grandam, Karroll, on her "unknown" dam line.

So how does the European registries (any of the warmblood registries) decide when to allow in horses of color and when not to? Or is it arbitrary? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

BINGO!!!!!! Consider how often people speak (with something bordering on scorn) about the ASB in a Warmblood pedigree, when this pedigree goes back to “unknown” cart and plow horses in just a few generations. The ASB (bred as a riding horse) have pedigrees that go back decades and decades and decades.

And camohn... I admire your breeding goals... good luck to you.. and keep us updated.

Karosel

Dec. 9, 2004, 06:15 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by rue:
I just went on Maxamillion's website and saw that he was entered into RPSI studbook II and that his foals are eligible for 1/2 brand with them.

I think he's a nice stallion. It seems like her main registry is this TASHR registry so maybe it doesn't really matter if he's approved or not approved by other registries. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No it doesnt matter what registries he's approved with, but what does matter is the integrity of the stallion owner.

Cartier

Dec. 9, 2004, 06:19 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>but what does matter is the integrity of the stallion owner. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And you think a post calling someone’s integrity into question (or a subjective assessment of someone’s integrity) is acceptable on this forum?

AS for RPSI and their books… I think many breeders are confused by their Book I and Book II . There have been threads about the confusion on this very forum. If is says approved and the Stallion Owner is referring to Book II, then what is the problem?

Now, you gotta ask yourself, if the stallion does not have sufficient pedigree to be accepted into Book I, shouldn’t the SO be told that before they even bother to present the stallion... but that would be another thread. And I can think of at least one lovely lovely RPSI Book I stallion who’s pedigree is a little iffy...

rue

Dec. 9, 2004, 06:20 AM

But what is stated on her website is true, right? So how does that compromise her integrity???

Maxamillion is entered into studbook II and his foals are eligible for a 1/2 RPSI brand.

I don't think that is a fair comment to make on a public board.... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

Karosel

Dec. 9, 2004, 06:32 AM

Remind to not look at a website in the middle of the night while studying organic chem. You are right it does say for 1/2 brand. I could of swore I didnt see that last night. (damn curly arrows and reaction mechanisms messing up my vision)

I apologise, my mistake. Last night I only saw "approved RSPI", but today I realize what the website has really said.

Again my apologies.

Cartier

Dec. 9, 2004, 06:42 AM

Karosel wrote
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I apologise, my mistake. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What an incredibly powerful thing to say… speaks volumes about you. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Lianne

Dec. 9, 2004, 07:44 AM

I still want to know where that pinto colouring comes from in Tina's pedigree. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

williamsknollfarm

Dec. 9, 2004, 08:31 AM

Wow. I am so glad I read this thread. I knew Maxamillion when he was just foaled up til the time when he was a yearling in Washington state. It is funny, but the breeder of Maxamillion also stood Juss for the Taste (a Samber son) but wouldn't breed her Dutch mare to him because she didn't want a gigantic foal. So she bred to the saddlebred instead to get some refinement and it certainly appeared to work, he is outstanding now. I bred my buckskin AWS mare to Juss hoping for the same outcome but she then died in a tragic accident before the foal was born. Such as life in the breeding game I guess. I'm just glad that Max is doing well and winning. I would have loved to own him.

BravAddict

Dec. 9, 2004, 08:31 AM

If I could just take a stab...Tina, like all the Dutch Horses (and German Warmbloods etc), comes from farm horse stock. Tobiano just existed in the gene pool. I don't believe that having unrecorded ancestors that far back was too uncommon. The pedigree has to end somewhere.
But that's just me.

Tiki

Dec. 9, 2004, 09:38 AM

For Maxamillion, I don't know how you got 'Approved RPSI' out of this: Inspected: RPSI (entered SB II). This is what is posted on his stallion page.

Cartier

Dec. 9, 2004, 10:00 AM

“Approved” may simply have been a poor word choice.

Anywhere*but*here

Dec. 9, 2004, 10:09 AM

I am really sorry for not clarifying "approved" when I mentioned Maxamillion. While I have seen him in person and met his breeder, I really don't know all that much about him- hence the short reply and link to the website for more info. I just thought I'd give a suggestion of a non-Samber pinto stallion! Sorry again for all the trouble!

Kyzteke

Dec. 9, 2004, 10:36 AM

Well, some of the confusion could well be the RPSI website. If you click on the tab at the top of the page that says "APPROVED" it lists all stallions with their scores -- including SBII stallions.

That implies they are approved, but technically (according to RPSI) they are not.

It's some pretty sneaky wording if you ask me.

However, one breeder told me RPSI SBII serves one purpose -- if a breeder/stallion owner WANTS to, they can present their horse, put him through the stallion licensing for RPSI, have him scored and pay to have him in SBII. Let's assume the stallion scored well, but must go in SBII because of his pedigree (say, he's part Paint).

The mare owner can determine this stallion's quality & suitibility to produce a sporthorse/WB TYPE by asking about his SCORE, not which studbook he's in. A SBII stallion can (and in some cases HAS) outscored a SBI stallion.

For instance, in this year the stallions Decoupae, Fortune Hunter and Gorbie (none of whom I would recognize if they kicked me in the eye)outscored Mezcallero & Facet (ditto the eye-kicking thing), even though the former three are SBII stallions and the latter are SBI.

Also, in several generations that SBII stallion can produce (through his daughters, who in turn will be bred to SBI stallions)"full-papered" RPSI horses. The breeder breeds up...and you end up with horses that are (Gasp!!) like Samber...who, through his dam Tina, had some pretty iffy blood back there.

Her explanation was enlightening to me, because I honestly never thought of asking a SBII stallion's SCORE.

crestline

Dec. 9, 2004, 10:48 AM

I've always wondered if the pinto in Tina came from an old pinto TK line influence...

Besides...I think if someone did want to concentrate and breed for color that once Samber or Tina is back in the 3,4,5th generation that there are some pretty safe crosses to be had. I think at that point it becomes almost more about who is in the pedigree closer up and how those horses will cross.

Sportpony

Dec. 9, 2004, 11:49 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Cartier:
For those who resist the registries (because of all the crappola involved), there are many well bred, athletic stallions with superb Sporthorse phenotypes and the ability to produce good foals. And, as we all know, there are approved stallions who produce junk (which is why some registries pull licensing based on foal crops). Bottom line, it does not hurt to be open-minded. Really! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And for those who do not insist on a traditional "European warmblood" based registry there are a number of pinto sporthorse stallions registered with AWS and AWR who appear to be nice stallions, some have excellent pedigrees and a number have competed successfully as well.

Depending on your goals for the foal, one of these stallions could definitely be an option as well, especially if you are "open minded" ...

Cartier

Dec. 9, 2004, 12:11 PM

Absolutely! And to put this as nicely as possible… there is certainly room for improvement in future generations… which is exciting.

Flying Hearts

Dec. 9, 2004, 12:15 PM

Tiki

Dec. 9, 2004, 12:31 PM

Depends on whether she came with papers, and from whom. Is she a Polish Trakehner? or a Polish Shagya? with papers or without? If she has no papers, I don't think any WB registry will put her in the Main Mare Book. She will have to go in their Pre-Mare Book or equivalent.

Flying Hearts

Dec. 9, 2004, 12:54 PM

I'm starting a whole new thread on Polish horses...

ukstallions

Dec. 9, 2004, 02:21 PM

You could also try the Hessen stallion Stanhopes Diddicoy, who's by Ico. He's AWR and SHOC approved.

Cartier

Dec. 9, 2004, 02:28 PM

Here's a link to Stanhope's Diddicoy http://www.horsequest.co.uk/bstonestanhopesdiddicoy.htm
A friend of ours is supposedly the one who found Diddicoy for the Petershams.

ukstallions

Dec. 9, 2004, 02:32 PM

Better links for Stanhopes Diddicoy are:
www.stanhopestud.com (http://www.stanhopestud.com)
and
www.emcostallionservices.com (http://www.emcostallionservices.com)

LongLeaf

Dec. 9, 2004, 05:19 PM

Thanks for all the info! You guys really are a great source of info for us "fledgelings" out here. I wasn't too worried about crossing Samber to Samber, I was more interested in knowing where the color came from and what other color lines were out there, as Samber seems to be the most prevalent. Now I know!

showjumpers66

Dec. 9, 2004, 09:53 PM

That is because last night the studbook II and the 1/2 brand was NOT there. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif It was added AFTER my post!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Karosel:
Remind to not look at a website in the middle of the night while studying organic chem. You are right it does say for 1/2 brand. I could of swore I didnt see that last night. (damn curly arrows and reaction mechanisms messing up my vision)

I apologise, my mistake. Last night I only saw "approved RSPI", but today I realize what the website has really said.

Again my apologies. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

showjumpers66

Dec. 9, 2004, 09:57 PM

When I viewed the site last night, it said "Inspected and Approved for breeding with: TASHR and RPSI" and it has been updated to read "Inspected and Approved for breeding with: TASHR, Inspected: RPSI (entered SB II)."

I do applaude Golden Venture Farm for correcting the information. Thank you!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tiki:
For Maxamillion, I don't know how you got 'Approved RPSI' out of this: Inspected: RPSI (entered SB II). This is what is posted on his stallion page. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Karosel

Dec. 9, 2004, 10:39 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by showjumpers66:
That is because last night the studbook II and the 1/2 brand was NOT there. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif It was added AFTER my post!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Karosel:
Remind to not look at a website in the middle of the night while studying organic chem. You are right it does say for 1/2 brand. I could of swore I didnt see that last night. (damn curly arrows and reaction mechanisms messing up my vision)

I apologise, my mistake. Last night I only saw "approved RSPI", but today I realize what the website has really said.

Again my apologies. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahhh! I was pretty convinced that it did say that, but like I said I was up studying (like now) and could have misread it.

I saw Tawna24, Max's owner on the bb this morning, so maybe she saw this thread and decided to clarify on her website.

showjumpers66

Dec. 10, 2004, 07:35 PM

Woodridge Farm has a chestnut tobiano Wradar son out of a Rubinstein mare who is the Oldenburg book with ISR/Old NA. His dam is a Paint/Dutch cross with no Samber/Tina.

http://www.woodridgefarm.com/oldenburginsp/oldnbginsp2003.htm

risingstarfarm

Dec. 10, 2004, 07:52 PM

Forgive my ignorance, but is sabino considered pinto? Belly spots, white lower lips, white face, high leg markings, etc?

Just wondering.

sanjuro

Dec. 10, 2004, 09:38 PM

BWP approved stallion SOCRATES by Landetto by Landgraf and out of the mare Pwala by Feinschnitt is a PINTO!!!

WhatzUp

Dec. 10, 2004, 11:05 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ukstallions:
You could also try the Hessen stallion Stanhopes Diddicoy, who's by Ico. He's AWR and SHOC approved. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<must suppress opinion, avoid adjectives, be politically correct, bite tongue & only state fact>

SHOC is not a warmblood registry.

Yours in sport,

Lynn

Cartier

Dec. 11, 2004, 02:59 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> <must suppress opinion, avoid adjectives, be politically correct, bite tongue & only state fact>> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Lynn,

Please... If someone uses that registry and they like it... well, that’s their business. Please, please, please let it drop. Otherwise, every single discussion gets dragged into this debate - which is unresolvable (and ultimately is not about the horses). The topic gets too personal.

camohn

Dec. 11, 2004, 05:20 AM

sabino is a form of overo, and tobiano is a different pattern but they are both pintos.

risingstarfarm

Dec. 11, 2004, 05:56 AM

Thanks Camohn!

ukstallions

Dec. 11, 2004, 08:13 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ukstallions:
You could also try the Hessen stallion Stanhopes Diddicoy, who's by Ico. He's AWR and SHOC approved.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SHOC is not a warmblood registry.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We know.

BehindTheScenes

Dec. 11, 2004, 09:11 AM

For mare owners who have AWS or AWR registered mares there is a pinto
Weltstern son available that is standing in Washington, Windwalker. He was
approved this past fall and will be starting in competition this next
spring.

http://www.elderberrystables.com/Walker.html

WhatzUp

Dec. 11, 2004, 09:36 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Cartier:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> _<must suppress opinion, avoid adjectives, be politically correct, bite tongue & only state fact>_> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Lynn,

Please... If someone uses that registry and they like it... well, that’s their business. Please, please, please let it drop. Otherwise, every single discussion gets dragged into this debate - which is unresolvable (and ultimately is not about the horses). The topic gets too personal. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cartier,

While I can understand what you have written,
I am not arguing about anyone's business to do
anything.

People can choose to make it personal if they
wish - I have no time for that.

The original question asked by the poster asked
simply for "approved pinto stallions that don't
go back to Samber" which I agree opens many cans
of worms with respect to defining approved.

An important accolade with respect to Samber's dam
Tina D that has not been mentioned in this thread
is that she earned the Ster Perf Prest predikaat.
(Her full sister Wanda was also a pinto FYI)
However, not all of Tina D's offspring were pintos.

Samber remains the only colored stallion to have
successfully passed the 100 day test with the KWPN.

Yours in sport,

Lynn

Cartier

Dec. 11, 2004, 12:45 PM

Lynn,

Any discussion of the merit of these colored registries is a black hole. I believe your comments were personal, apparently you do not. So be it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> An important accolade with respect to Samber's dam Tina D that has not been mentioned in this thread is that she earned the Ster Perf Prest predikaat. (Her full sister Wanda was also a pinto FYI)However, not all of Tina D's offspring were pintos. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As for Tina and her alleged accolades… sorry but I am not remotely impressed. All I can say is, take a look at her... she is a plow horse... with short upright pasterns and what look to be clubby feet, etc. I don’t see her as a foundation mare... not remotely. I think she was a bone… thrown to Dutch breeders. No more, no less. Overall I think there is marked room for improvement in the phenotype. I respect that you may feel differently.

And when I read the claims about horses being “pure Warmbloods” based on her pedigree, which disappears into “unknown” in so few generations … well, it is amusing at best... but again, to each his own.

WhatzUp

Dec. 11, 2004, 01:27 PM

Cartier,

I just am unable to see where I posted an
opinion about Tina D.

... that she earned the Ster Perf Prest
predikaat is a fact.

OH ! Except that I consider "Ster Perf Prest"
to be an accolade. Which I do; for any mare.http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Yours in sport,

Lynn

Cartier

Dec. 11, 2004, 02:36 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> just am unable to see where I posted an opinion about Tina D.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I didn't say you had.

And if you like that type of conformation, that sewing machine movement and that iffy pedigree then by all means ... embrace it, breed to it... enjoy it!

Wishing you all the best.
-E

Palomino Leopard WB

Dec. 11, 2004, 07:56 PM

http://www.sambertino.com/sambertino/main_index.htm
Another Samber son left out...since this post seems to have gone from non Samber lines...to standing up for Samber and his dam. Actually we have a Sambertino filly...very nice filly much nicer than my Rainbow cross out of the same mare.
Cartier if you are implying that Sambers dam was crap then I suppose the entire offspring of Samber is unimpressive to you as well?

Cartier

Dec. 11, 2004, 09:01 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Cartier if you are implying that Sambers dam was crap then ... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
First of all, I didn’t imply anything; I have made explicit statements. And I didn’t use the word “crap.” Tina and her descendants are what they are. If you like that, then fine. I am not going to argue about varying definitions of a “quality” Sporthorse pedigree or “quality” Sporthorse phenotype.

Tina descends from a plow horse/cart horse phenotype, which has certain characteristics that I do not find particularly suitable for an upper level Sporthorse. And, after all these years of claims about the bloodline, I think it’s remarkable that is ends so soon in “unknown.” I can’t think of many bloodlines approved by mainstream registries that end so soon in an unknown pedigree.

Iluvgoldies

Dec. 11, 2004, 09:21 PM

Tina may have had all those official accomplishments, but I must say when I saw her picture for the first time, WOW she did look like a plow horse outta the back field http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And this is just a comment not an attack, because both of my pinto wbx's go back to her! And truly proof of improved breeding. I can't belive a horse like Samber came from her, or that a horse as gorgeous as Art Deco is her grandson.

Cartier

Dec. 11, 2004, 09:27 PM

As I said before, I think this shines a rather large spotlight on the power of a single Inspector or Breeding Director to say that a given mare is approved to a registry's Main Mare Book (be the mare Tina or some other mare). And arguably one important aspect of reflection on any given pedigree is that - as a breeder – one would hopefully use the analysis as a guide to improve and refine what you have. The point would be to move forward with each successive generation towards an ultimate objective (or breeding goal).

This also raises the broader question of whether any plow horse/cart horse’s pedigree - that ends shortly in unknown - is in any way superior to the pedigree of breeds - developed as a riding horses- with a credible pedigrees that go back 100 years or more. It makes me wonder about the “My Warmblood is pure and your isn’t” kind of statement.

Cartier

Dec. 12, 2004, 04:17 AM

We were sitting here discussing this thread, in the context of other threads about what the Europeans have done to our market place (by and through the choices they have made for us in the past 20 years of their governance of our WB breeding).

So often we hear that we’re behind the Europeans because of our mare base… that our mare base is different (i.e. inferior to theirs) in phenotype and pedigree. The inference is that our mare base is not well suited to the Sporthorse phenotype. And most registry's solution has been to allow us to import their mares. So, rather than working with our mare base, we can only get ahead by purchasing their mare base and importing. They will only use a few of our TB’s and even fewer of our Arabs. Registries like AHS don’t even want the TB.

But here’s a thought: For over 20 years these registries have been telling us that our American Saddlebreds, Morgans, Tennessee Walkers and Quarter Horse –TB crosses are all wrong for a Sporthorse phenotype. And all the while they are saying that, they are also promoting thier undocumented mixed breed plow and cart horses as superior.

Upon reflection, I don’t think we have ever really been allowed to use our mare base. And, if they can put unknown pedigrees in their Main Mare Book[s] and use the offspring to found stallion line[s], then why can’t we? There are Saddlebred crosses and TB-QH crosses that have stunning Sporthorse phenotype. These breeds were bred as riding horses and I think they are far superior for WB breeding than a plow horse /cart horse phenotype. I remember walking through a ASB barn in Ohio and thinking, “Boy, I wish we could use a bit of this and that in our breeding program. Some of these horses have WB attributes we can’t get from the TB’s we’re allowed to use."

If, for the past 20 years, we'd been allowed to use the best of our mare base we might now be far ahead of them. And we'd have every bit as much right to claim the "purity" of our pedigrees as they do. The documented pedigrees of many of our riding horse breeds go back well over 100 years.

Sporthorse South

Dec. 12, 2004, 05:35 AM

As far as being "allowed to use the best of our mare base" - I don't recall seeing any Germans holding a gun to our heads during breeding decisions. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Those that want to breed as they wish, do so. And those that want to follow the European model, do so. The benefit of the European system is that it is has been PROVEN to produce top class sporthorses. For many breeders here, it doesn't make sense to try to reinvent the wheel.

We constantly see people on this very forum boasting that they are producing foals "as good or better" than those produced in Germany or Holland - and I'm sure that is true in quite a few instances. But most of the folks making those claims have followed the European model - I don't recall seeing anyone who uses QH or Saddlebred or Percheron mares (for instance) making the same claim. I'm not saying that it is completely out of the realm of possibility for one of these mares to produce a world class sporthorse, but I do think that the odds are significantly less than for a "European WB" type mare.

And - here's an interesting tidbit. Go far enough back in Sandro Hit's pedigree (six generations), and you will see "unbekannt". So those of you who have used this stallion may be introducing "cart horse" blood into your stock. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Ha-ha, just kidding. Actually the mare in question was believed to be of Polish Trakehner bloodlines, but she had a non-verifiable pedigree so went into the Oldenburg pre-studbook.

mmaurer

Dec. 12, 2004, 06:02 AM

I think I am about to slaughter a horses name, but Carrick..an eventer(currently top ranked I believe) is actually a CSHA, from Canada who is 1/4 or 1/8 heavy blood. He is listed every where as a tb cross.

So sporthorse South, I am willing to bet there are FAR more horses lurking out there that are listed as one thing but with different pedigrees who might have some of the heavy blood. Canada has at least one olympic medal from a horse with heavy blood as well.

I belive warmbloods are an evolving breed, and to be honest people who forget this might get a suprise one foaling morning. I would worry though that if Tina is a heavier type mare and someone started to double ortriple up the samber bloodline, that female line might just show up again...

Of course some of us have stallions with interesting re: different, non traditional tail female lines. Nothing wrong in it, if we realise it and are careful what we breed to.

Karosel

Dec. 12, 2004, 06:07 AM

You got the name right. It is Carrick.

Sportpony

Dec. 12, 2004, 06:16 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sporthorse South:
The benefit of the European system is that it is has been PROVEN to produce top class sporthorses. For many breeders here, it doesn't make sense to try to reinvent the wheel. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One thing I have often wondered about is a question on the differences in the riders, the buyers, and the market when comparing the U.S. and European systems. I've wondered just what the comparative percentage of the total number of buyers/riders in Europe looking for and buying "world class" potential horses and going on to train and compete with them at the upper levels is, when compared to the U.S. buyers/riders.

I have the feeling that in Europe the riders who are able to ride and compete at the upper levels may be a substantially higher percentage of the total riding population than in the U.S. This would certainly make a difference in the demand and market for "world class" sporthorses.

If many of the U.S. buyers/riders are not riding and training at the upper levels and do not have the interest in doing so, they may be better suited by a horse that does not have the potential/ability and temperament to perform at the upper levels.

Maybe I'm wrong on the percentages, I don't really have any idea. And I'm not saying that a low level rider, just because they don't compete at FEI levels should not own a horse with FEI level potential.

The entire system seems different to me ... not only the sporthorse breeding but the training of riders and the competition itself ... so do American breeders need to focus so strongly on the "European system" or should they be developing an "American system" that may be better suited for the general American riding population?

Cartier

Dec. 12, 2004, 06:17 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> As far as being "allowed to use the best of our mare base" - I don't recall seeing any Germans holding a gun to our heads during breeding decisions <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry but I find this type of argument very weak. To respond in the context you suggest is relevant, no one put a gun to the German registries 20 years ago and forced them to come over here to exploit our market place. They did so because they benefited financially. And, in having taken our money for 20 years, they must accept some responsibility.

Bottom line, they willingly came over here and enticed us to believe that they would guide us to produce a valuable sport horse. And, after 20 of thier guidance (which was not free by any means), we still can’t compete with what they are breeding. American breeders have paid a huge price to be only this far along in our domestic breeding programs.

As for your assertions about Sandro Hit ’s pedigree ending in unknown... if that is so, it simply illustrates my point. Sandro Hit is the product of a local mixed-breed undocumented mare base used over generations. We haven’t been allowed to even use the best of our mare base. Who knows what we could have produced in 20 years if American breeders had had the ability to use the best of our mixed breed riding horses.

rue

Dec. 12, 2004, 06:54 AM

Cartier--

Amen! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Cartier

Dec. 12, 2004, 07:00 AM

Oh thanks!

And since it’s Sunday in mid December here’s an Amen and a Merry Christmas right back at ‘cha! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ukstallions

Dec. 12, 2004, 09:21 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Cartier said: Who knows what we could have produced in 20 years if American breeders had had the ability to use the best of our mixed breed riding horses. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't this why there have been some "American Warmblood" registries created, to allow breeders the opportunity to use OUR mares to develop our own sport horses? (no need to debate between the two primary registries, AWR vs. AWS, as I'm sure everyone has their opinions and I'm betting there have already been some "discussions" as to the pros and cons of each!).

My point is that as a new member to this site, I've been shocked by the emphasis placed on the "traditional" warmblood registries. For example, when shopping for stallions, most breeders seem to not use the stallion publications like COTH (eye candy), but rather go to the respective warmblood directories. I'm now in a panic deciding if I need to get my foreign stallions (who are almost all AWR licensed) into their respective purebred books here!

My owners were very happy to go into the AWR, which by all appearances is the U.S. equivalent to the popular and (at least to my American eyes) well-accepted and respected Sport Horse Breeding (Great Britain), which is also a full member of the WBFSH, and was started to allow breeders to breed more to "type" rather than to "breed". The vast majority of stallions in England are licensed with SHB(GB), either in place of or in addition to their main warmblood books.

I started importing frozen semen with proven Eventing stallions and the AWR seemed to have the best fit, since most eventers could care less if their mares are purebred anything, and most mares are crossbreds or TBs. I've been working very hard to get these eventing breeders (all of whom recognize the need to improve the quality of eventers bred in the U.S.) to inspect their mares and foals. Now, however, with showjumpers and dressage stallions, it seems like I may need to start doubling up on licenses because those breeders heavily favor the purebred registries.

Just a viewpoint from someone new to the warmblood scene.

Christine Miller

Galileo1998

Dec. 12, 2004, 10:34 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by mmaurer:
I think I am about to slaughter a horses name, but Carrick..an eventer(currently top ranked I believe) is actually a CSHA, from Canada who is 1/4 or 1/8 heavy blood. He is listed every where as a tb cross.

So sporthorse South, I am willing to bet there are FAR more horses lurking out there that are listed as one thing but with different pedigrees who might have some of the heavy blood. Canada has at least one olympic medal from a horse with heavy blood as well.

I belive warmbloods are an evolving breed, and to be honest people who forget this might get a suprise one foaling morning. I would worry though that if Tina is a heavier type mare and someone started to double ortriple up the samber bloodline, that female line might just show up again...

Of course some of us have stallions with interesting re: different, non traditional tail female lines. Nothing wrong in it, if we realise it and are careful what we breed to. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Carrick is actually only 1/16 Clyde, through his sire Cosy's Commander who was 1/8th Clyde. All the rest is T'bred.

WhatzUp

Dec. 12, 2004, 11:24 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Cartier:

As for Tina and her alleged accolades… sorry but I am not remotely impressed... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cartier,

Predikaats are awarded by the KWPN based
on the performance levels attained by a
certain number of offsping for a mare,
they are not "alleged" as you say.

Whether or not you are impressed by
Tina D is not relevant to the fact that
these are predikaat levels she earned
based on the performance of her offspring.

I am sorry I just assumed (my mistake http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif)
that you would know what predikaats were,
so I have posted them and their respective
definitions below:

Star

Studbook mares may be presented for evaluation
against a higher standard. Those receiving a First
Premium receive the predicate 'star'.

Keur (k)

All star mares are eligible to be re-evaluated
(in hand only) for keur and approximately 50 to 70%
of the star mares will be designated Provisional
Keur. After the successful completion of a performance
test the mare becomes keur.

Preferent (pref)

A predicate given to any foalbook, studbook,
auxiliary foalbook, auxiliary studbook, or thoroughbred
mare which has produced three WPN foalbook registered
offspring designated as Star(for mares) or
Star Quality (stallions and geldings).

Prestatie (pres or prest)

A predicate given to any foalbook, studbook,
auxiliary foalbook, auxiliary studbook, or thoroughbred
mare which has produced three WPN offspring which have
achieved the equivalent of M+5 sport levels in dressage,
jumping or 3-day event.

I have edited these to keep this somewhat
short but the details (on performance tests both
in hand and under saddle) can be found on the
KPWN and the NA WPN websites.

I see that this thread has deviated far from the
original question ... so I am done now.

Yours in sport,

Lynn

Kyzteke

Dec. 12, 2004, 11:42 AM

Lynn -- thanks for that clarification. Indeed, the value of a broodmare (or stallion) is NOT in what THEY did, but what they PRODUCE.

If a mare can produce like Tina D. did, I would consider her in my breeding program..."carthorse" phenotype or not.

Her "carthorse" get obviously can perform.

Fairview Horse Center

Dec. 12, 2004, 11:54 AM

I think if you look back several generations of most of the European Warmbloods, you will find that heavier phenotype. The Dutch have always been a very "open" registry. I personally think we have gotten to far away from that heavier base. The lighter, more modern horses may be wonderful for professionals to win medals on, but for the amateur rider, we may very well need a few more doses of that "Tina" phenotype.

Photo of Garma A, mother of Jasper

aurum

Dec. 12, 2004, 12:18 PM

I already tried to post this morning but my whole message got lost in cyberspace, so I try to do it again.

The dam of Samber - Tina D - is/was a Groninger mare and this breed is a heavy Warmblood, not a draft breed. There are still heavy WBs bred in Germany to conserve that old breed that was the start of the todays modern German Warmblood sporthorse. They are the Old Oldenburgs called and are also bred in Thuringia as Thuringian Heavy Warmblood, but sometimes you do not even see a huge difference.

As for Samber, no matter what kind of mare Tina D was, her son Samber is the most prominent and BEST of all Pinto stallions that have ever lived. Samber is a versatile stallion who was winning dressage AND jumping to the top international levels. His sons and mares are following him in his footsteps. No other Pinto stallion has that many approved sons, grandsons and great grandsons and a lot of them excel in eventing, dressage and jumping to the top and international levels. Show me any other Pinto WB stallion that has achieved such. There is only Ico that can be named and he only had ONE son going to the top levels in jumping - Nekoma - and ONE son going to the top levels of dressage - Icon. Then there are the few Pinto Trakehners. Elvis who has not achieved much, Makar who is the only one of the Trakehner Pintos that I would testify for movement and eventing sport and Indian Boy who was only used as a kettledrum carrying horse at the stallion parade of Neustadt Dosse, which speaks volumes for his capabilities. Camaro has been approved later after the Pinto Association had approved him and he had participated at the Bundeschampionat. He has produced nice foals with good mares. But that's all of the Pinto WB lines that are in existence and that have WB approval. So far until today, the Samber line is still the best of all and brings movement, jumping and eventing capability to the highest levels. Recently at the stallion approvals of the ZfDP there were again two Samber grandsons which both got approval, one being decorated as the best ZfDP stallion at this approval and he truly was it.

As for being afraid of having too much Samber blood, I did the Samber, Samber, Samber line breeding and the outcome was just the most fabulous foal you can imagine, huge, elegant, refined and with tons of presence and movement, best of all fillies and an eye catcher for everyone. You just need to know that you should take a lighter and elegant mare to breed back to the Samber line and you will get an extraordinary foal and horse.

Lianne

Dec. 12, 2004, 01:22 PM

The point is, the Europeans experimented, took chances on mares that were *ahem* less than stellar in the conformation department, and when they got good results, they capitalized on it, and when they didn't, they culled. But they DID take a gamble on Tina (surely there must have been a reason, perhaps she was very agile? sturdy? Had a fabulous temperament/work ethic?), and it paid off.
Why is it so shocking when someone does a similar thing over here??

What some of us are bemoaning is that, instead of trying to do the same with our mare base, we are afraid of taking chances and instead we would prefer to ride on their coattails, pay them money to use THEIR mares, their stallions' semen and their inspectors, and try and catch up to them in terms of breeding/competition.
And yet, it isn't really working.

We will always have this same discussion, and it will always go round and round without going anywhere, because there are two schools of thought in NA:
1) let's start from scratch, just like the Europeans did, and create our very own top-calibre sporthorses
2) that will take too long, we want to be competitive NOW, let's import their horses (paying them money), use their stallions (paying them more money) and let's ask them to come here and tell us if our horses are good enough (more and more money).

Neither of these is right or wrong, or better than the other. They're simply different.

Fairview Horse Center

Dec. 12, 2004, 01:50 PM

When you evaluate Tina D's conformation, it is actually quite good. Yes, she is a heavier type, and has the typically shorter legs, and shorter, upright pasterns that are usually found in that type. When crossed with the lighter TB, it just refined what she already had, and added length to the legs. What the Europeans have NOT done in these cases of extremely influential lines is what they tell us to do. They have NOT crossed type to type. That MAY be riskier than Americans are willing to deal with as we are not a country that can send our culls to be eaten. It may be a riskier method, but it also is how the Europeans make such huge changes in the breeding population rapidly.

Oakstable

Dec. 12, 2004, 04:03 PM

So where is the photo of Tina D?

I have a Dutch Star mare, age 28, who is by Pericles XX out of a Gelderlander line loaded with predicates.

The old style was short cannon bones, and a square frame. Neck was uphill, good temperament, built to stay sound.

I bet my mare looks very much like Tina D. I've researched her pedigree and do find the "unknowns" but also many Keur Preferent Prestaties in the old Dutch bloodlines.

On the other hand, I can trace my Trakehner mare, Lucy Mae, back to the Godolphin Arabian.

I'd have to pull out the German pedigree of my mare, Wendenwinter, but it says something in script verified for 18 generations.

I'll use Del Mar with her to see how far back I can go.

I do think the Trakehners are far more interested in genealogy and the Dutch have been more interested in practicality, i.e. what works. Trakehners are a breed and the Dutch have become a registry.

This discussion seems like it should be a thread apart from dear Tina and that lovely tempered Samber.

Sally

Fairview Horse Center

Dec. 12, 2004, 04:43 PM

Tina D (http://www.pintofields.ndirect.co.uk/images/samber/samber6.jpg)

pintofoal

Dec. 12, 2004, 04:50 PM

Sally very good points...

Unfortunately the only photo that I know of Tina D is the same one being used here as an example. The photo was taken at a mare show, where she was to honor her accomplishments, the photo from what I understand was taken when she was in her late 20s and after having had many foals. I also understand from what I have read that Tina D also competed in Grand Prix jumpers-(I should beable to confirm this by Tuesday). So the harsh judgments being made here on her are from one photo when she was a very old lady. And as some of us know age and babies sure can change ones body. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif Her pedigree is not unknown until the the 3rd generation on the dams side her pedigree going back to Karroll a Gronigen mare whos dam is not listed but is by Ernst a Holsteirner. The rest of the pedigree top to bottom is complete back to the early 1900's and 1800 on every other line.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I think this shines a rather large spotlight on the power of a single Inspector or Breeding Director to say that a given mare is approved to a registry's Main Mare Book <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am guessing you know very little about the Dutch system--it is not a single breeding inspector judging the mares there it is a team. Also if they where just "throwing the breeders a bone" as you say they certainly would not have given her a "Ster" rating, they would have just put her in the main mare book with no accolades. The other designations she earned and it is not given by any judge or inspector--but what she has done and produced, she EARNED them plain and simple.

I included the photo that is of Tina D and some of my mare Heaven who is an American Paint mare--though registered pinto. She was quite good looking and refined in her day, and was approved into the Dutch books (aux), Belgium books (aux), ISR, etc. I guess now that she is 25 and had a boat load of foals some here might say she looks like a cart horse too, http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif but you can see by her "younger" pics that she was lovely. I totally agree that American mare base can have and do have WONDERFUL offspring, Heaven is a prime example of that, but they go into the appropriate books with the Warmblood registries and that is just fine, that is the rules and I CHOOSE to follow them. They can also get "full" papers with the various American registries and if that is the case and the offspring is wonderful, who really cares if it has Dutch or German papers, but I certainly do not expect them to change the rules and if "I" don't like the rules or system there are plenty of other choices in the good ol USA http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

The top left photo is of Tina the bottom left is of my mare at 25--about the same age as Tina in her photo. The two right photos are Heaven (and me) in her younger years. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

crestline

Dec. 12, 2004, 07:07 PM

Sort of a side note here....find me the MOST gorgeous, MOST winning TB hunter on earth and I would almost guarantee we could find something not at all type-y looking in the first three or four generations of it's pedigree!

Or...find the fanciest dressage horse...don't you suppose we can find a clunk in the last three or four generations of most of their pedigrees too?

I think mares were infused a long time ago that we look at now and might say hmmmm...but back then they may have been the right cross for the stallions of the day.

Cartier

Dec. 13, 2004, 03:20 AM

Edited from a quote on the previous page <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Predikaats are awarded by the KWPN based
on the performance levels attained by a
certain number of offsping for a mare...
blah blah blah ...
given to any foalbook, studbook,
auxiliary foalbook, auxiliary studbook, or thoroughbred
mare which has produced three WPN offspring which have
achieved the equivalent of M+5 sport levels in dressage,
jumping or 3-day event. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Lynn,

I can’t imagine why you want to post all that data. It is not news. If that kind of data impresses you (or comforts you), then enjoy! I’m not going to get into an argument over how the Dutch (or any registry), award an accolade (and what it means). If you find it meritorious than use it to your advantage and breed that FEI superstar. But one might legitimately ask, “If the Dutch loved Tina so much, where are the rest of her offspring that they approved?” Btw, here is a link for more information http://www.nawpn.org/kwpnsystem.htm

We've seen many from the bloodline and we are not alone in our observations. One reputable, oft quoted person - with 17+ years experience managing a large Dutch farm in this country - mentioned to us that a particular Samber son was turned down more than once by the NAWPN “because of his club feet.” So maybe the Dutch don’t wish to embrace all of Tina’s offspring. And, just maybe Tina’s problems persist in the line and at the very least must be a consideration when breeding to the line.

But if you like the line, than use it and enjoy it. There is no ultimate right or wrong here. We’re speaking of preferences. There is no perfect horse, not even if they have been anointed by the Pope himself. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

AS for this quote,
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>No other Pinto stallion has that many approved sons, grandsons and great grandsons and a lot of them excel in eventing, dressage and jumping to the top and international levels. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Sorry, but that strikes me as a really silly statistic. As of this moment, there are no other approved colored warmblood stallion bloodlines other than Ico and the line Tina generated Samber/Rainbow. So Tina’s son reigns supreme in a category of two. What your statistic really means is that in a category where he is almost entirely by himself he wins! Congratulations!

As for Tina being a bone thrown to Dutch breeders… we’ve heard that for years from many sources. We believe it, if you don’t that is fine. Without question some of you have a huge financial interest in singing the praises of this bloodline… so sing! The line produces some good lower level riding horses, who make their owners very happy... and that -in and of itself- is a good thing. The world is large enough to accommodate different points of view.

Tina did not walk on water and her bloodline is not sacrosanct or above reproach. If you look at Melissa’s discussion on breeding Donna Novella one will not see Karen R jumping in to emotionally defend Donnerhall... she may recognize that he is what he is... warts and all. And Samber ain’t no Donnerhall.

Tina is what she is…. and short upright pasterns and sewing machine movement seem to persist in that line. AS for jumping ability… they have some jump, but so does almost every WB breeding line out there.

For what it's worth, I agree with Oakstable about having a separate thread and with Lianne's statement<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>We will always have this same discussion, and it will always go round and round without going anywhere, because there are two schools of thought in NA:
1) let's start from scratch, just like the Europeans did, and create our very own top-calibre sporthorses
2) that will take too long, we want to be competitive NOW, let's import their horses (paying them money), use their stallions (paying them more money) and let's ask them to come here and tell us if our horses are good enough (more and more money).

Neither of these is right or wrong, or better than the other. They're simply different. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

aurum

Dec. 13, 2004, 04:29 AM

Elaine, not every match turns out to be wonderful. Even full siblings can be so totally different one could be a famous stallion and the other one a mediocre gelding. This is what breedings is about, you TRY to go for the match you think is the best you can get and then you will find that you either have succeeded or missed the goal totally. This is not like putting a pin through a hole, it is life animals involved and a lot of different DNA for genetic make-up and after all, only heaven knows which of the DNA will bind together to make that perfect or that crap match.

Nobody is governing anyone for the breeding one is doing and everybody is responsible for their own matches the breeder is doing. I just had a conversation with a German breeding director who told me that the breeding rules for Warmbloods should be "overthought" again newly.

Sporthorse South

Dec. 13, 2004, 04:36 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Cartier:
... no one put a gun to the German registries 20 years ago and forced them to come over here to exploit our market place. They did so because they benefited financially. And, in having taken our money for 20 years, they must accept some responsibility.

Bottom line, they willingly came over here and enticed us to believe that they would guide us to produce a valuable sport horse. And, after 20 of thier guidance (which was not free by any means), we still can’t compete with what they are breeding. American breeders have paid a huge price to be only this far along in our domestic breeding program. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ummm, I can see the scene now.
U.S. Breeder: Dear German warmblood breeder or registry official. I see that you have developed a system for breeding world class sporthorses. I would like to do the same. Can I buy some of your stock to get started with? Will you help me with decisions so I can breed the best horses possible in the same tradition as you?

German breeder/registry official: No, we don't want to be accused of trying to help you develop a breeding program on a par with our own. So we can't sell you our precious stock, nor can we give you any information that will help you. If you want to breed, you are going to have to use your own indigenous stock, and make your own breeding decisions. Good luck, and maybe one of your homebreds will beat our best at the Olympics in a few short years.

Elaine, your argument that we haven't been allowed to "use the best of our mare base" is ridiculous. No one FORCED us to breed according to European standards. What the Germans and Dutch told us is that their products are based on certain breeding standards. If we want to breed horses that bear the same "name" as their product, we have to use their standards. They don't use Percheron, Saddlebred, Quarter Horse, Morgan, etc., blood. So why should they allow us to do so, and then stamp the resulting "product" with their name and logo?

Again, anyone in this country who wanted to breed outside the standards of a European WB registry has been free to do so. And, as we all know, there have been PLENTY of breeders who did just that, and continue to do it. People who WANT to breed registered Hanoverians, however, have to be willing to accept the guidelines of the Hanoverian Verband, and its official American-based offshoot, AHS. If breeders DON'T want to accept the guidelines of the Hanoverian Verband, then they are free to go elsewhere, but I just do not accept the notion that Hanover should allow someone to register a Paint/TB cross as a "Hanoverian" when it goes against their policies.

And if you believe that the Germans and Dutch have deliberately led American breeders astray for 20 years, and that we would have made more progress by breeding Percheron / Saddlebred crosses, or Quarter Horse / Morgan crosses, then why are YOU breeding to German-based warmblood stallions? Why have YOU tried so hard to get your mare(s) into the Main Mare Books of European or European-type registries? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Cartier

Dec. 13, 2004, 04:52 AM

Gwen I agree with you.

Chris /a.k.a. Sporthorse South/ a.k.a. OHBS Newsletter Editor,

All your verbiage asides, German registries came to sell a product /or service. In exchange for large amounts of our money, American breeders were promised that they were buying something of value, including, but not limited to, the determination that a particular animal was accepted to a specific place in their breeding books. This was not a free service provided by altruistic German Registries. It was essentially a business transaction. They made money from us and continue to make money from us.

As for whether we’ve been allowed to use our pure and mixed breed riding horse mare-base to its full advantage, emphatically we have not! We have not been allowed to use it the way German have been allowed to use their mixed breed plow and cart horses.

Re this quote, <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Elaine, your argument that we haven't been allowed to "use the best of our mare base" is ridiculous. No one FORCED us to breed according to European standards. What the Germans and Dutch told us is that their products are based on certain breeding standards.If we want to breed horses that bear the same "name" as their product, we have to use their standards. And we all now know that their standard allows for using mixed breed and unknown pedigrees They don't use Percheron, Saddlebred, Quarter Horse, Morgan, etc., blood. How do you know this if the pedigree is unknown? The unknown coud be zebra! It is unknown So why should they allow us to do so, and then stamp the resulting "product" with their name and logo? Short answer, because 20 years ago they said, We're here folks and for lots of money we'll guide you to produce a Branded Oldenburg Sporthorse. And no one put a gun to their head to come over here. They did so to make a buck. /QUOTE] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And what on earth does this mean? <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Why have YOU tried so hard to get your mare(s) into the Main Mare Books of European or European-type registries? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Our mares ARE in the Main Mare Books. One was put there by Dr. Roland Ramsauer (the GOV Breeding Director back in 1995). She produced a Premium filly in 1995 (who carries the GOV's brand) and who went on to be the GOV-Old/NA’s Reserve North American Foal Champion for 1995. In 2004 she produced a Contango colt who received the highest score for movement at his Foal Inspection, and missed Premium by one tenth of a point. She is currently in foal to Sandro Hit and we have an ET mare carrying her Lord Sinclair foal.
Our other mare was presented to Old/NA in 2003, entered into their Main Mare Book and produced a Premium Lord Sinclair filly for them in 2004. She is currently in foal to Sandro Hit. She has not been presented to the GOV yet. Both mares are in the Main Mare Books. So please, don’t try to personalize this discussion with false, misleading and extraneous data about our mares. You haven't a clue what you are talking about.

My comments are about WB breeding in this country in a broader context. American breeders have not been allowed to maximize (or even tap into) the potential of our pure bred and mixed breed riding horse mare-base. And one likely explanation for this is that German registries don’t have access to this mare base (and can not profit from it), so (As good business men), they simply exclude it as being undesirable. Yet, they are allowed to use their mixed breed plow and cart horses for their breeding programs.

Lianne

Dec. 13, 2004, 05:21 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sporthorse South:

If we want to breed horses that bear the same "name" as their product, we have to use their standards. They don't use Percheron, Saddlebred, Quarter Horse, Morgan, etc., blood. So why should they allow us to do so, and then stamp the resulting "product" with their name and logo?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But why would you want to? You don't NEED the logo!!! You don't need the name!!! Do you honestly think it's the "name" that gets a horse over a 5' course? The brand on its butt that guarantees an FEI career?
What is wrong with breeding American Sporthorses? Hmm? The Irish had no problems with it... Us Canadians have no problem with it... The French created the Selle Français, not the "French Warmblood".

I think the Irish are a perfect example of what we should seek to achieve - they started with their own Irish Draughts and crossed them with their Irish Thoroughbreds, and they now have one hell of a jumping horse! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Cartier

Dec. 13, 2004, 06:15 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Nobody is governing anyone for the breeding one is doing and everybody is responsible for their own matches the breeder is doing. I just had a conversation with a German breeding director who told me that the breeding rules for Warmbloods should be "overthought" again newly. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Gwen,
I love the way you write...it is charming, bordering on endearing. And I agree with the German breeding director you reference.

aurum

Dec. 13, 2004, 06:44 AM

The Europeans created a Warmblood sporthorse centuries ago. The Germans started with the Old Oldenburgs and heavy Warmbloods, the Dutch started with the Groninger and Gelderlanderd and did it very differently to the Germans. The Dutch bred mish mash and took the best out of it to breed on and apparently their thing worked out too. The Germans bred the horses more elegant with arabian, Tb and Trakehner blood. The Trakehners have never had heavy WBs. Any horse at a certain epoche could have been used as cart or plow horse, no matter how nice or ugly looking as just there were no machines too do the work at that time, so the horses had to do that work. Not nice to slam them for what they were at that time as they worked hard for us humans. The breeding goals of the Germans worked out so well that most all other European countries started their sporthorse base with the German breeding stock and still influence it today.

I do not say that another working out could be perhaps done with a Paint. In fact there are some Paints that are mostly TB and look really nice and refined and we could use some of these to refine the European heavy stock of Pintos, but well PAINT is not allowed, so that was what this breeding directore meant, to overthink as a quarter Paint and all rest Tb has already been overruled by the TB and only kept the pattern and might be a good one to influence.

The European rules are fix and must be followed, but there is still the AWR and AWS that are the American WBs so why don't American breeders profit of these two and breed what they want and breed up until they have produced the perfect American sporthorse for the Olympic disciplines.

Every registry and breed had to start somewhere so why don't Americans set up rules and breed their American Warmblood and start with those at the Olympics instead of using European bred horses?

It is not good to ask us to extend our rules over American horses as we have always bred German/European lines without these and we came far in the breed with doing as we did. But nobody will forbid the American breeders to create their own valueable Warmbloods bred out of their homebreds. In fact I think the Saddlebred, Paint of no stock horse body and Morgans would not do a bad job to start with.

Cartier

Dec. 13, 2004, 06:58 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>The Europeans created a Warmblood sporthorse centuries ago <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No they didn't.

This modern WB phenotype is largely a creation of the late 1960's and early 1970's. What you bred for centuries was a work in progress, at times used for the plow, the cart and only rather recently as a Sporthorse. American breeders have breeds here that were developed and refined as riding horses (not for the cart and plow) for well over 100 years. They are arguably more suited to WB breeding.

And the German Registries came here... to sell us their product. They came here and said that, in exchange for big money they would guide us to breed a WB Sporthorse that was credibly part of their German Registry. But being good businessmen (and women) they say only they can use mixed breeds and unknown pedigrees. But if your pedigree is unknown how can you say for sure what is there? And how is it not "the German way" to use unknown pedigrees?

Maybe, instead of submitting the pedigree at all, we should just submit "unknown" and then you couldn't object. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Lianne

Dec. 13, 2004, 07:02 AM

Thank you, aurum. Excellent points, and I agree with you.

I think it's pretty sad that a German lady such as aurum has more faith in the potential and quality of American breeds than most American breeders do (in the context of breeding sporthorses, I mean). http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

aurum

Dec. 13, 2004, 07:29 AM

I am sorry to contradict you Elaine http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif but in fact the Warmbloods bred in Germany have been used for sports since centuries. There have been horses bred that are draft for the hard work, heavy Warmbloods for the carriages and the lighter horses for the sports. What you mean is the refinement that came with the years and in every country the horses have been bred to the needs that have changed with the generations and years. The same happened to the American based breeds too. Look at the QH, the Paints, the Appies and in fact...where do they come from? The mustangs apparently came over with Christopher Kolumbus and the spanish conquestadores and so the basics of the American breeds are in fact European lines.

But you are right in the was to say "unknown" is the same value as an outside breed, it will start in the premare book 2, but one can breed up to the main book by going through PMB1, SB and then MMB. So it is open also for unknown and for outside bred horses and not really closed at all.

The only closed books are Holstein, Hanoverian and Trakehners in Germany right now. Holstein and Hanover have received BREED status from the EU.

This is not to slam any breed as every breed has good and bad horses. I have seen WB mares entered into the main mare books that should have gone into the backyard as grass cutters only. I have also seen approved stallions turn out into an uncorrect horse and producing horrible offspring. I would stand up for not having such mares entered into the books AT ALL and such stallions forced to been castrated to avoid the misery of unwanted foals that will end up at the slaughter house.

Cartier

Dec. 13, 2004, 07:35 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Every registry and breed had to start somewhere so why don't Americans set up rules and breed their American Warmblood and start with those at the Olympics instead of using European bred horses? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That’s a great idea and there is nothing wrong with AWR… if that is a choice people have made. But you are talking of apples and oranges. Some American breeders paid the big bucks to be included in the German WB Main Mare Books (this was not done for free). Many breeders don't remotely feel like starting over. And we aren’t going to simply walk away from our investments. It’s a business decision for us in the same sense that it was a business decision for the German registries to come and take our money in exchange for the right to say we have Oldenburg Main Mare Book breeding stock.

The German registries came here and sold us the "product"...i.e., that we could breed branded German Warmbloods here in the US. So I think we should hold them to some credible impartial standards... and if they can use mixed and unknown pedigrees in Germany (and call them whatever pure WB), then we should be able to use them here.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I am sorry to contradict you Elaine but in fact the Warmbloods bred in Germany have been used for sports since centuries. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are not contradicting me… Gwen. Read what I wrote. I said. "This modern WB phenotype is largely a creation of the late 1960's and early 1970's." And that is true.

We have riding horse breeds here that we developed and used in this country for over 100 years - that should be able to be presented to WB registries. Now if the inspector doesn't like the given animal's phenotype, well then, that is that... but the pedigree and the breed should be available for consideration.

carosello

Dec. 13, 2004, 07:46 AM

FWIW, if anyone has an inspected pre- split mare (Oldenburg split between ISR or GOV), the mare needs to be reinspected to be placed in the proper mare book for GOV. Typically there is no charge for this but the mare needs to be there so they can pull DNA, check the pedigree and they like to have the former scores so they can make sure everything matches with their paperwork. Then the mare will be placed in the GOV maresbooks. My understand is that mares inspected previously their scores were kept with the ISR/OLD, so you should be able to call them and get a copy if you dont have it any longer. HTH

Cartier

Dec. 13, 2004, 07:51 AM

Why would American breeders want to pay (again) to have animals reinspected. What is the split? As of December 13, 2004 this information is not officially listed on the OHBS website.

We've actually monitored the OHBS website for years now. There is none of the information you just posted and there hasn't been since 2000. Actually, there is no mention of the split (or the financial and legal consequences of it) on any Oldenburg website. It is just not there anywhere.

aurum

Dec. 13, 2004, 07:59 AM

Elaine, that is exactly what I mean, if I have a mare of unknown parentage or a mare that is Saddlebred f.e. I can bring her into the WB breed by going to start into the PreMareBook 2. Then I can breed up to PreMareBook1 with a filly resulting from a WB approved stallion, then a filly out of this and bred to a WB approved stallion can go into Studbook then already and voila you are only one more away from the Main Mare book.

If I would have a mare that has a Paint horse in the third or 4th generation only, then I would fight to get that mare entered into the proper status of the book where she would fit. If this Paint was a stallion and the mother a TB f.e. then the outcoming daughter would be the PreMareBook 2 and a filly out of this with a TB or WB sire should already be PreMareBook1 and the next generation then studbook.

I do not know if I could explain that correctly as it is complicated. The problem is that a Paint sire is not allowed at all when a Paint mare could already start in the PMB2.

It was even more complicated here when I started breeding WBs. The horses from outside of the EU where only entered into the PreMareBooks1 even with full WB pedigree, but they were considered outside breeds because of non EU heritage, somehow I found that pretty NAZIwise for horses http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif and it changed only around 1990.

So do not think we get it all easily. Believe me I would be already far with my color and pattern creations if some things that I would enter would be allowed, but I have to agree on the rules as any other member and so I obey to them as has to do any other breeder that wants to breed Oldenburgs, Hanoverians, Westfalians, Hessen, Zweibruecken or whatever.

Look the Paints do only allow TBs to be influenced into their breed. What if I come tomorrow and say "well you make money by selling us the Paints to Germany and we pay a horrible amount of money for these wonderful colored horses that so many are crazy about here, but I now want to influence a Pinto WB into the breed". I bet they would show me their stinky finger at the APHA and think I am gone crazy.... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

To be honest there are several Paint/TBs that I would love to have with their frame overo pattern but I am not allowed to so I did buy the TB with the frame overo gene, Nite Spot and this one I am allowed to influence. In addition he is correct on his legs and has great movement too. I guess that comes from the Paint that was the one that jumped the fence to bring the Frame pattern into the TBs http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Cartier

Dec. 13, 2004, 08:11 AM

Gwen,

We are not in disagreement. And, for anyone who would follow the path you lay out, I can only say that I applaud their efforts. I am thankful that this issue is resolved for us. Our mare was put in the GOV’s Main Mare Book back in 1995 by Dr Ramsauer – The GOV’s (and Old NA’s) Breeding Director and at the time he specifically referred to it as the GOV’s rules that he was following and the GOV’s Main Mare Book. We have the video of the Inspection. He specifically mentions a GOV Rule that allows him to accept her pedigree to the Main Mare Book. We rely on his word, after all he was the GOV's Official in this country and the GOV's Breeding Director in Germany. So I am generations past this.

carosello

Dec. 13, 2004, 08:23 AM

I dont do anything with the website but have co-hosted an inspection for the last couple of years. When people call us for information or preregister this is information we tell them if they are asking about registration possibilities for pre-split mares.

If you have any questions you can always contact the office directly.

Now back to your regularly scheduled topic. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

aurum

Dec. 13, 2004, 08:29 AM

Elaine, I was generalizing and just giving examples. It was not meant for you directly, sorry if it came that way. I do not know the pedigree of your mare exactly, just know she has Paint heritage somewhere in the 4th or further back pedigree, but that was not the issue. My issue is that ANYONE can breed f.e. German WBs with going that way, so it is not a real NO NO forever. But if I were American, I would breed an AMERICAN Warmblood sporthorse and bring it to the Olympics. I am sure it is feasible but nobody really tries and that is sad.

Cartier

Dec. 13, 2004, 08:29 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
When people call us for information or preregister this is information we tell them if they are asking about registration possibilities for pre-split mares. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
But Sonia /Carosello,
How does a buyer in our market place (presented with Oldenburg Registration papers and a O and Crown branded animal) know about what you are referring to as “the split’ or pre-split? It is not terminology they would be able to access on any Oldenburg website. How would a buyer even think to question what has been done officially? A buyer would rely on the fact that what is done is done. He /she would simply be happy that they purchased an Oldenburg.

And Gwen.. I didn't mean to convey the impression that you were personalizing this at all. Sorry if it came across that way. I love you to pieces, respect you, consider you a dear friend and have for years now.

I mentioned what I did, because - to be blunt - we've been attacked about this issue before and I am sick and tired of hearing mis-information about our horses from supposedly credible registry spokespeople. Their misinformation has maligned us in that past and it negatively impacts the value of our personal property.

Lianne

Dec. 13, 2004, 08:39 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by aurum:
But if I were American, I would breed an AMERICAN Warmblood sporthorse and bring it to the Olympics. I am sure it is feasible but nobody really tries and that is sad. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it's sad, too!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Erin

Dec. 13, 2004, 08:40 AM

Ahem... Cartier, have you seen the topic in BOLD at the top of the forum?

Perhaps you need to run out and grab some Christmas candy to sweeten your posts a bit. It IS possible to have a discussion without making it nasty. Or at least, it's possible for most people.

And unless this thread becomes all sweetness and light, I will just go ahead and close it, because my level of tolerance for this forum is not very high right now.

So, everyone, keep that in mind before you post...

carosello

Dec. 13, 2004, 08:43 AM

Elaine I dont want to get this thread shut down..and now its heading off into another direction.

Nobody that has contacted us about inspections has had problems with the process. I guess it helps that they speak to us in person or to the office (either in Germany or the US). Sometimes its just not possible to put everything on the website for everyone.

They are two different registries and each handle the paperwork differently. I know they were once one but they arent now and those people who were inspecting before are long gone. Yes its a bit of a hassle to get that info together but I cannot control that and its the best system that has been presented to me to date.

One last thing...there is no "registry spokespeaople" posting on this forum.

Sorry to the original OP...Im not going to bring this stuff up again here.

Cartier

Dec. 13, 2004, 08:52 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Nobody that has contacted us about inspections has had problems with the process <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Merry Christmas Sonia http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif,

I’ve enjoyed your informative posts and love Le Duc,... stunningly beautiful colt http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif. And by golly, I don’t recall that I said anyone had problems with the Inspection process http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif. Far as I’ve experienced, the process itself is rather straightforward . Apparently we are in total agreement. Halleluiah and praise the Lord. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif
All my best to you and the little ones... and the winning lottery numbers are 3, 5 12, 17, 29 and 67. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

showjumpers66

Dec. 13, 2004, 11:49 AM

As a breeder, my goal is to produce MARKETABLE youngsters that have the talent to be successful. Silverwood Farm has made a success of her Samber line horses and, if you watch the sales page, they sell quickly. To me, that is marketable.

I bought two Paint mares after 2 years of looking. Those with the right type, size, movement, and with correct conformation are few and far between. My plan was exactly what is being discussed. Keep a pinto filly, breed her, and work my way up through the books. Unfortunately, I ended up with a pinto colt and a solid colt. Neither colt is very marketable even when priced extremely low due to the fact that they are out of Paint mares. Although, both colts are very nice, I am now stuck with them for the next 3 years unless I am willing to give them away. I have not had any problems selling my foals out of my TB mares. This was the number one reason that I dropped the endeavor. Personally, I feel that I would have been much better off breeding to Sempatico. I would have been guaranteed a pinto foal. He is modern, elastic in movement, and lovely. Elasticity and impulsion is VERY hard to find in Paint mares. I can use a Sempatico foal in my jumper program and take it the direction that I am wanting to go in just 2 generations. With the Paint mare route, I am 4 or 5 generations from where I want to be. In the meantime, I am producing foals that the lack the quality of my F2 foals. I will take quality over color any day!

Another point is that the professionals avoid color and there can be a stigma of poor quality attached to color. Amateurs are typically the market that buys color. Based on this, it is tougher to get a colored sporthorse to the upperlevels.

okggo

Dec. 13, 2004, 12:01 PM

showjumper- I just looked at your site, B Radical QLF is just too cool http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif looks like a big scoop of vanilla ice cream with chocolate on top!

Cartier

Dec. 13, 2004, 12:03 PM

And 66, we checked out the link you posted earlier.. to the Hannoverian breeders in Idaho. My what lovely pedigrees and phenotypes. And a frame overo... WOW! They sure have some exciting plans.
I thnk these are the links:

http://www.cocolallacreeksporthorses.com/sport_horses_escalade.html

http://www.cocolallacreeksporthorses.com/sport_horses_radikal.

Lianne

Dec. 13, 2004, 12:37 PM

DANG!!! That Weltskandal mare is STUNNING!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Cartier

Dec. 13, 2004, 12:55 PM

And the people seem very nice... I spoke with the husband for a bit... very very nice man ... with a very serious long-term game plan.

showjumpers66

Dec. 13, 2004, 04:23 PM

Yes, Cocolalla Creek is making good progress with creating their own color lines. And, they appear to be doing it correctly, by continually crossing their pinto lines back with proven sport lines. It is just many generations in the making.

Flying Hearts

Dec. 13, 2004, 04:27 PM

Oakstable, can you post a picture of your Pericles mare? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Oakstable

Dec. 13, 2004, 05:26 PM

I don't have photo posting priveleges but you can see Sandra on my web site. Look under mares.

www.oakhollowstable.com (http://www.oakhollowstable.com)

She is a 1976 Ster model. She is 16 hands. She still looks great. Just a little grey in the face.

There is a photo of Sandra with her daughter Natasha, too.

sallyann

Dec. 7, 2007, 10:53 PM

I have an upcoming 2 yr old non Samber pinto stallion that is out of Stanhopes Diddicoy , a Hessen stalllion in the UK. He is AWR registered 1st premium out of a AWR 1st premium mare. He will be at least 16.1 when he is finished growing. You can see him on my website mlequestrian.com His name is Diddicoys Dunadan (Strider):)

Black Forest

Dec. 8, 2007, 06:01 AM

Hmmm...ok, here's a question. I have a pinto Polish WB mare - she was inmported into the US as a weanling. Will any breed registries (I mean main ones like Oldenburg, etc) allow a Polish mare to be entered into their main mare book? If they do, that would be the way to get new pinto blood in. Sorry this has sort of strayed from the original topic a bit.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If her pedigree is ok then yes, there is no problem with the polish lines, and I will take colour comong from the Polish lines (which almost invariably go back to the mare Eva - a Trakehnen state stud tobiano mare) over any Samber blood any time. Frankly for me personally the Samber blood can't be far enough back in a pedigree - but that is purely personal taste and not meant as a dig at Samber or his offspring, they are simply not for me.

My boy is Polish too :-)

Edited to say - OOPS - where did this thread re-surface from ?