Date Allocation Task Force Report [Archive]

Hopeful Hunter

Dec. 27, 2004, 08:11 PM

hmmmm.........interesting. What I don't get:

1. What would be the inducement/benefit to a non-rated local show to become "affilated" or "endorsed?" If I'm reading it correctly, there is a fee for this (unspecified amount) but I only see the ability to use USEF rules and report results (via a software system that also doesn't have cost/benefit info listed) as the benefits. Maybe I'm missing some?

2. Rated shows seem to be held to standards, but those standards don't exist and won't exist before 2007. Will they be retroactive, or just apply for the one year? How will the standards be enforced/evaluated -- competitor input? Independent site evaluations?

3. There's a lot of mention of standard electronic reporting and software to do so. Having just been through a very ugly (and non-functional) software debacle with a client company...where is this system coming from, who is paying for it and what is the benefit to competitors?

Just wondering...Oh, and dumb question -- this only affects H/J shows?

updated to add: Nothing on the USHJA website on this as of the moment. As the affiliate, maybe they're planning to address some of this, especially for the non-rated shows? Anyone know?

Snowbird

Dec. 27, 2004, 09:36 PM

No this is supposed to apply to all disciplines and all Affiliates. I am concerned because in addition to what you already cited it says that any Affiliate can decide on which level the show belongs. So for example an unrecognized show could be determined by it's Affiliate as an endorsed show to be a level 2 or 3 = A/AA Rated.

It would seem to me that it would then make sense for all the shows to drop licenses go unrecognized and be buddies with their Affiliate so they can have the highest rating since the Affiliate would determine the Standards.

That seems to me too much of an opportunity for self serving special interests to avoid paying their share of the bills. The Local show would be done for, and I can't imagine much reason why any show would be licensed as C/B Rated. But perhaps that's the way they plan to open the Calendar.

Other

Dec. 27, 2004, 09:51 PM

Ok, who wants to provide the layman's, non-horse show administrator, brief summary of the key points and their implications?

Snowbird

Dec. 27, 2004, 10:15 PM

I'm tired so the short and skinny for a competitor is that there is a merger of unrecognized shows with Licensed shows.

No one knows how this will affect USEF Rated Divisions and Classes since the Rule Book we just received would be out of sync.

There are no more Local Members Shows if this is passed. They are in Level 6 which does not require Rules be followed, licensed officials , medic, insurance.

C=level 5
B=Level 4
A=Level 3
AA=Level 2
New=Level 1

An affiliate can decide an Endorsed Show is any level it thinks is good for the show.

We don't know what a License will cost. We don't know the terms and conditions. We don't know the Show Standards but anytime the USEF thinks there is a better show they can end the License.

I don't see how this is going to make better shows because managers will be reluctant to make investments based on a nebulous future. They can change their mind about the Rating of the Show up to 30 days ahead.

The Prize List is do at the USEF 40 days ahead after printing. That means that we might print a Prize List thinking we had an A Show and they might decide it's only a C Show so the competitors will get C points instead of A points. There are no descriptions of what or why that change might be made. I suppose that means we could have 3 day C-Shows.

Beyond that it's pretty hard to tell you because nothing is written in and everything is by special agreement in writing. Mileage rules can change quarterly and for some reason Long Island has seceded from New York. Mileage will fluctuate quarterly within a state and then might change too depending on what states do next door and the lowest mileage will count for at least some part of the year. It's is totally unmanagable and unenforceable. Numbers will rule the world rather than quality.

It doesn't say how all these decisions will be made or by whom.

Other

Dec. 27, 2004, 10:22 PM

Oh Snowbird, thanks so much!

What does it mean by New? Is that a show that didn't previously exist before this rating system? And does it get a level assignment the following year?

khobstetter

Dec. 27, 2004, 10:25 PM

In case you ask later...YES I AM POLLYANNA !! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

The Task Force Report CLEARLY states in its opening sentence that
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> It is expected that the full implementation of the new date approval process will take at least 3 years. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The report then repeats itself over and over..."reccommends" and "recommendations"...

This process is not an easy one...neither was giving birth!! That is what is happening here....WE,,YES WE..are giving birth to a new concept and process and it will be painful and grinding...BUT WORTH IT IN THE LONG RUN.

For so many years all we have heard is the ear shattering whinning and complaining about AHSA and so on.......the nerve shattering ROAR of "everything needs to change" "nothing is fair" "what about the local shows"...and so on ad nauseaum.

Now WE have a chance to roll us our sleeves and dive in and help create the changes we want.

There are sooooooooooo many people who have devoted a huge amount of hours to at least TRYING to listen to all the gripes and complaining...they have at least come up with recommendations and ideas.

GOOD FOR THEM......ANYTHING I CAN DO TO HELP....I WILL. Do I agree with everything...NO I DO NOT.

And I spent my hard earned money to go to the Conventions and stand up and be heard. I did not make alot of them happy BUT I stood up and said what I had on my mind again and again and again...and I took alot of your ideas with me. They may not have agreed but they listened and I listened.

I think if we listen and chip in and HELP we can all make a difference.

Read the "REPORT" carefully, offer ideas, voice your CONSTRUCTIVE ideas and critisims and BE HEARD.

This is still in process.........my dear ole' dad always said....
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> You are either a part of the solution or you are apart of the problem...the choice is yours.! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My choice is to try to be part of the solution...I may not like everything BUT change is inevidible.

Good for the Task Force Committee/group/team or whatever they are. They had to start somewhere and this first swack at it is a good start...IMHO!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I can hardly wait to see details as they take shape!!

Snowbird

Dec. 27, 2004, 10:39 PM

Kathy Pollyanna is not what I would call it. They decided to make these changes which are a work in progress "extraordinary"
on the 13th, legal approved them on the 15th and they were published on the 22nd of December. The Meeting is in 20 days and no one knows what's happening. No definitions, no criteria, nothing that is as promised "definable and Measurable". Not even even how much and yet these rules go into effect for the 2006 shows so they become effective 102 days past the Meeting at which no one gets to discuss them or even get to understand them.

Does that really sound like a plan to you?

khobstetter

Dec. 27, 2004, 11:03 PM

It sure does to me......BUT I don't read the Report with a negative eye.....I read it looking forward to changes and progress....

If I have questions I email directly to USEF and USHJA and ask questions and they always respond...heaven knows they may get tired of my emails BUT they do answer ALL of them.

I do not run around like chicken little...the sky is NOT falling!!!!

PineTreeFarm

Dec. 28, 2004, 05:10 AM

I'm interested in what data they want to capture with the new electronic filing system and what the data will be used for. And of course, how they will secure the data from unauthorized use.
I notice that 'Associated Competitions' are outside the Licensed structure but they will be required to submit their entry address list to USEF.

Hopeful Hunter

Dec. 28, 2004, 07:55 AM

I've sent this info to my local unrecognized horse show association (whom I've promised to help with some marketing/PR next year as part of my "shut up or get involved already" decision). One question I don't get...

Are local unrated shows like the Baltimore and Harford County circuits (www.hhsamd.org, (http://www.hhsamd.org,) www.bchsa.org (http://www.bchsa.org) and others like this) going to be REQUIRED to have USEF Level 6 "rating" now? Will they be required to join USHJA or something?

Just trying to figure out what changes if any are in store down here...

MIKES MCS

Dec. 28, 2004, 08:06 AM

An observation from an old person. As a "child" I understood what the AHSA and USET was,I understood thr rules, I understood the premise. as an "Adult" I have no idea what the USEF, USHJA or what ever the current intitials are trying to accomplish, what they stand for, or what they who they are trying to help.It has become so complicated and so fragmented , I haven't even renewed my USEF membership. If I were a promoter , right now I would line up my sponsorship money and run my own show.. As long as the facility is good, organization good , footing good , and prize money guarenteed , You will fill your stalls. When the powers that be finally figure this mess out then become a recognized show. Until then, Who needs the hassle. Sorry just my honest opinion. This is one BIG MESS , What the horse show world needs is a "Bert DeNemethy" to take over and spell it out..

khobstetter

Dec. 28, 2004, 08:46 AM

With all due respect Mike...I don't think the mess IS, I think the mess WAS !

Date "ownership" was a mess, the milage rule was for the "big" guns, date allocation was automatic and not reversable....and so on. We lost the "middle American rider" and shows in the process.

I don't know about where you are but here the 'B' and 'C' and "Local" shows are all but non-existent....there just arn't any anymore (with only a handful of exceptions.)

Horse shows that would never survive in the "open" market keep right on ticking because there was NO way to stop bad management shows.

Local Associations, which IMHO, have their hands on the real heartbeat of what is happening in their communities..YET they got NOTHING out of being AHSA members.

Yes, it looks a bit like a "mess" right now..BUT

Let me give you an example....my great aunt came to visit and she uses a walking cane. My house was unaccessible to her except for the living room couch.

I tore my entire house apart to make it "user friendly" to her. IT WAS A TOTAL WRECK IN THE PROCESS!!!!!!! Stuff all over the place as I moved it from one room to the other, unloaded book shelves, removed throw rugs that would trip her. But now she can go anywhere in the house with ease.

Friends came over to visit while I was in the process and they asked what Tornado had come through!!!! They had no idea what I was going to do with all the stuff........

But it got done and the entire place is better for it. I shoused away the negative conversationalists and was THRILLED to accept help from friends who just wanted to pitch in and help get it done.

I loved their ideas, took their advice and was sooooooooooooo thankful for their help.

I kind of look at this re-organization the same way....

We may have understood USET and AHSA but our sport outgrew that simplicity...saddly but it did....and it outgrew it because it is absolutely BIG money now..then it was not.

Our sport IMHO is capable of REMAINING A HORSE SPORT, with the best interest of the horse in mind, but it absolutely must undergo a "house cleaning" and revamp...and that is what is happening.

Interesting to me that some of the people bad mouthing this process, and it is a PROCESS, are the same people who were so negative about the old system......I don't think they will ever be happy no matter what is done.

Please, Mike, get on the way, pitch in and help move the kitchen table....Auntie Anne can't get to it.... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Snowbird

Dec. 28, 2004, 09:45 AM

Kathy your demeaning attitude towards anyone who does not agree with your unrealistic and illogical approach to this topic does not speak well for an open mind but a locked door.

You have your view. I personally donot think it is wise to be be standing on the railroad track with a freight train coming at me and try and pretend it isn't there.

Unlike Chicken Little I can look up and I know the sky is not falling down. But how can you be sure that the freight train is not really there?

My point has to do with proving you are wrong in the sense that there will be no discussion. By making the proposed changes an "extraordinary" rule change proposal it will not come up for discussion at any meeting anywhere except out in the hallway. So when you speak of the evolution of ideas they don't exist in that environment.

Whether or not the concept of Licensing is good or bad is not even an issue. But when dialog is prevented it makes me very suspicious that perhaps it will not bear scrutiny in the light.

There is no proposal because the offer on the table has no price tag. No show knows what a license fee will cost. And if they sign a 3 year contract it says it can change. There aare no definitions of the terms and conditions at all. We were promised they would be "definable and measurable". There is no definition of what is included in a Competition Evaluation.

In July at the mid year meeting the General Counsel said its purpose was to prevent further litigation. It will not. It will cause more litigation if the terms of the contract are not clearly defined. No lawyer would ever permit a client to sign on for a License that has no clear definition of the terms and what the client will get under what conditions for how long and how much.

That's just plain business sense perhaps you are not familiar with the concept. If you want a mass exodus of horse shows and competitors then I suppose you will be pleased it will certainly be easier to be horse of the year if 98% of the Competition is longer eligible.

Snowbird

Dec. 28, 2004, 10:00 AM

Hopeful Hunter no show can be forced to participate in the USEF new concept of Licensing. Any unrecognized show series should continue on it's merry way and enjoy life.

This is just an option that those who have been unrecognized and prefer not to be members of USEF can if they like participate. They do not need to be recognized except by their Affiliate and they can be Associated.I understand this is a common thing in for example Eventing.

Or they can be Endorsed and in that case any show Endorsed by an Affiliate can become any level show that the Affiliate chooses to find it whether or not the members are part of USEF. USEF Member can be disregarded if you are a member of the Official Affiliate Association.

There shows can choose which rules they wish to enforce, and wich they choose to ignore. They are not required to use the rule book, hire licensed officials have a medic or insurance.

Therefore, if there is some reason why they think it would be an advantage to give USEF a fee and their mailing list then they can join the program.

Read what is written and it's clear. What I object to is that the definitions are not defined, that decisions will be made by transient employees and that this is being ramrodded through without dialog. It is quite possible that with such dialog they could make their point.

I am weary of the general paranoid attitude that assumes all show managers are thieves and therfore require supervision, that all Stewards are their dishonest pawns aand that the judges all have a vested interest in those with special benefits to offer them.

That is what I find depressing and demeaning about the proposal. I do not think that a $10.oo an hour office worker can make better decision than the business people earning their living from this sport.

Snowbird

Dec. 28, 2004, 10:05 AM

Mike MCS you are absolutely correct. This is a mess or a train wreck about to happen. I have not yet unwrapped my Rule Book and there are 29 pages of new rules that can be passed at the Annual Meeting.

You are not the only one who doesn't have a clue and is totally confused we all are equally. I spoke with two Members of the Board who had not been informed and have no idea what is on the table. They are not electronically connected.

Kathy while I'm sure it is very therapeutic for you to write your suggestions and while they are most likely tossed in the giant round file I agree with you that I'm sure it really makes you feel good and very important. I am too old to be so easily pacified.

Snowbird

Dec. 28, 2004, 10:10 AM

Pine Tree Farm, I am not only interested in what information they can collect with a two exchange between computers, I want to know what kind of back-up system is in place so that a virus planted in one computer does not open the whole system to a catastrophic crash of all the computers. I want to know what safeguards are in place to make sure that spyware is not implanted in all our computers and the information about our purchasing habits is not sent out to unscrupulous third parties.

I am offended by this perpetual condemnation of Show Managers and the willingness to trust the system to perfect strangers from where we do not know and for what reason we do not know. As show managers we have kept your secrets and we have not shared your information nor has anyone I know of except the USEF sold your information to anyone.

It is a fact that what we do on the computer is like broadcasting to open lines and anyone can tune in at any time.

MIKES MCS

Dec. 28, 2004, 11:43 AM

Khobstetter & Snowbird.... thank you for responding to my post. Like others I don't often jump into the frey of Horse Show Politics. Why is that? Why doesn't the adverage Horse Show'r get involved. Maybe because it's so confusing, doesn't directly apply to anything thier connected with, and we don't exactly see the upper management coming to us asking for help.
I watched a similar organization ruin a sport by trying to make it better. In 1990 the American Motorcycle Racing's Dirt Track Division was experiencing a huge growth, everywhere from the local amatuer level to the top of the Pros, grandstands were filled, purses where good,& Amateur Championships had huge #'s . It was going strong, Then the Governing body (AMA) stepped in to make it better. The consequence within 5 years, numbers declined, and now the division barely exsists on a Pro Level not to mention the Amatuer level at this point.. How'd they'd screw it up. They saw the numbers and wanted a bigger piece of it. More money for the AMA and big money sponsors. No Longer was the small sponsor of interest. The grass roots level that had resurected the disipline was no longer needed, The AMA would now take over, and make it better. It's a fond memory now and will never ever again exsist on a level accessable to everyone. Khobsetter, you asked about my area . We have at least 4 local level Hunter/Jumper assco. in Michigan. A person in a lower middle class income bracket can actually find an association to go show on with out going broke. We have enough of a varity that we can actually go from a local level to (thanks to the Rheinheimer's) a AA show within a couple hundred miles of anywhere in the state.. If you want to show in Michigan you can. What's going to happen to that with this new disorganization. This is the scarey part. We do have a "SPORT " here and the old saying don't try to fix what isn't broke really comes to mind. Opinions vary I know. But where is the data from the members. Where is the survey that asks of all it's members how can the horse show world be made better. want real Data.. then ask the real people who compete, The barns that make their living off of horses the people that remember "when" and live in today.I think every horse magazine in the country would print a survey for free, every barn would give one to there clients. If a person felt thier opinion was really wanted maybe then they would step up to the plate. JMHO

khobstetter

Dec. 28, 2004, 01:13 PM

Snowbird....knew you would try to make it personal.....Thanks for not letting me down...
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Kathy while I'm sure it is very therapeutic for you to write your suggestions and while they are most likely tossed in the giant round file I agree with you that I'm sure it really makes you feel good and very important <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Kathy your demeaning attitude towards anyone who does not agree with your unrealistic and illogical approach to this topic does not speak well for an open mind but a locked door.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My Lord your comments are a hateful thing......you just can't resist being nasty...ewwwwwwwwwwwwwww!!!!

I will resist taking your lengthy, non-sensical posts and tearing them apart and then getting personal....I will resist...I will resist...I will resist...

Mike...great ideas and input....PLEASE write the organizations with ideas and suggestions....you sound like you have some sense of what is needed in your area....PLEASE pitch in and be heard!!!!

Snowbird

Dec. 28, 2004, 02:36 PM

I knew Kathy that I could count on you to be patient and kind after I heard your Aunt Anne tale. How kind you are is a generosity beyond logic that I do not share in my simple world.

It's really weird you know, I keep asking the same questions of everyone. Financial accountability, responsibility, representation of the whole ladder including us lowly entry level people.

I hope that's not what is considered being negative.

MIKES MCS

Dec. 28, 2004, 02:54 PM

Khobsetter, Where do I start. Do I start with questions that may have already been hashed over a 100 times. My first question, do the organizations understand the "Local Level" or even care? My impression is NO. I am not talking "A" shows, I mean the unrated & A, B, C associations that have maybe 10 shows a year. They hand out thier own awards and keep thier own points.. These shows attract 50 to 300 horses for a weekend or 4 day show. Many competitors know nothing about the USEF or USHJA, The only time anyone comes into contact with those intials is on an entry form that states you have to be a member or pay a non member fee. Many choose the non member fee as they see no reason to join an organization which serves no purpose. Most riders I know can only afford 2 or 3 AA shows per year if they are lucky, This is obviousley not going to get them any year end awards. For these riders they are better off competing locally on 1 circut where they see an attainable benifit. My point is this organization effects the higher level competitors. It still has nothing to do with us,(the ones down here mucking our own stalls), We do have numbers but we don't account for the BIG $ #'s, Unless the USEF wants to address State By State, Level by Level awards most of the economically challenged aren't going to have any intrest in an organization they believe is only forutne 500's crowd. Really why would they have any concern. Thier is an un ending supply of Big Money at the higher levels. It is of no concern to them how they spend or how much they spend, They don't care about a membership fees, and this is the membership that is sought. The people at the top have worked hard to get there, they are sustained by the money at the top and gain nothing by reaching down to a local level. It's up to those who wish to play in the big leagues to crawl thier way up the ladder, once they reach the top they will be heard , thats how it works. But don't expect them to affect change or support Grass roots horseshowing once they get there, they've been there done that and not many are willing top go back. There isn't any reason to. So that's my take on the USEF and the USHJA, To me, where I am at now in my life they are of no benifit but yet seem to need my support. My biggest question is WHY? Why reach out to the poor masses. Make your membership exclusive to those who show the Grand Prix circuits , charge $500.00 per year and stop the pretense. This is just how I see it. So until Someone comes down here to a local level , (literally) and says "What can the USEF do for you" Tehn I don't see a point in becoming a member. JMHO

A. Roose

Dec. 28, 2004, 04:02 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by khobstetter:
I will resist taking your lengthy, non-sensical posts and tearing them apart and then getting personal.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hello, kettle? This is pot. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

It's clear that the two of you will NEVER see eye to eye on much of anything and take pleasure in poking sticks at each other. But why, pray tell, should such things be inflicted on the rest of us?

Snowbird

Dec. 28, 2004, 04:10 PM

I love that picture Mike, "economically challenged" actually I just call it "horse poor". I started 30 years ago when all the shows were unrecognized and we worked to get them recognized for the obvious reasons of fair play, a level field and licensed judges.

I like my part of the sport which is "grassroots". The Federation has not yet decided whether the "grassroots was unrecognized" or the C/B/Local shows and competitiors. I am your "token" lower level person on the Competition Management Committee. I enjoy preparing shows for the Entry Level Riders. They are generally pleasant well mannered and good sports.

I like to sleep in my own bed at night, I think children should go to school and not be tutored. I would not want my girls to live in motels and tack rooms and never be home. We own our farm because we love our farm and want to enjoy living here.

This exactly what bothers me about this proposal until I get better definitions. I think they want to dump all of us from the C/B level into a lower tier and don't think we deserve the same safety and protection they enjoy. They see us all as bottom feeders who are a source of their food chain.

This plan is flawed and not in compliance with the intention and purpose of the Ted Stevens Act. It was created because of the inequities they felt existed in the sports programs through Educational Institutions. As a member of the World War II generation we were taught either do it right or don't do it at all.

One thing is clear either we are treated fairly or we're all out of here.

Snowbird

Dec. 28, 2004, 04:11 PM

A.Roose it's just the tango of love. But if you don't like it skip our threads unless you want to dance with us.

wtywmn4

Dec. 28, 2004, 04:14 PM

Okay with all this bru ha ha, went and read it. The key words to me are "recommendations posted for review." And from what I have ascertained, the reason it was deemed an "extradonairy rule change" was to send it forward. So that it could be looked at by the board of directors. And how would any of them know about it, since it will not be looked at till January? No changes are to take place prior to 12/1/05. This is one whole year. Now if I did not like what was being proposed, I would most diffinitely make it known prior to the convention. Then back it up with being there. And yes, we are all tired of the whole debacle. But if you truly believe in something, it ain't over till the (excuse the pun) fat lady sings.

Ans Snowbird, not trying to start anything, when I rode my first pony at the Devon Horse Show 1958, it was rated A. And that was thru the AHSA. So the ratings have been in place for quite sometime, with judges being liscensed.

khobstetter

Dec. 28, 2004, 04:37 PM

Thanks Snowbird.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Mike...believe it or not, that is alot of what is going on now. There was and is A LOT of conversation about what can USHJA (not USEF) do for all of the HJ competitiors..and they realize the "po foks" have been left out.

The lower levels got over looked..IMHO IMHO..because AHSA had to deal with ALL disciplines and levels..USET was there for the "elite" and then everything went haywire.

With the Hunter/Jumper discipline now being it's own enity it can now really expand it's efforts and be involved with all of us...but it will take time.

There was so much discussion at the USHJA Convention about just what YOU are talking about...what can USHJA do for the lower levels too. The first step is to form the Affiliates Committee and let that Committee really be productive. The Affiliates Committee had EXTENSIVE discussion about what the Local Organization levels need.......

The Affiliates Committee is made up of all the Presidents of ALL Affiliates and then whoever else really wants to be on the Committee. The Affiliates Committee will make recommendations and suggestions in most of the organizational planning now. It will make recommendations about what THEIR members need as far as date protection, show milage, approvals, rule changes and STANDARDS.

The Affiliates Committee will be a very powerful Committee if it is run correctly as it will have the hords of lower level people involved and we can storm the barn doors in mass if we need to.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Unless the USEF wants to address State By State, Level by Level awards most of the economically challenged aren't going to have any intrest in an organization they believe is only forutne 500's crowd. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
There was extensive conversation about just that!!!!! They are aware but there really was NO alternative under the old organization structure...now there is!!!!!

Someone has to do it and the guys at the top really know that the Affiliates really want help and USHJA is now willing and eager to try to get going in that direction.

Everything from a mentors program, scholorship opportunities, clinic, seminars, direction and so on. It was a LONG meeting and a very heated one...but soooooooooooooooooooooo productive!!!! IMHO!!

We have to start somewhere and I really believe that there are key people who want the lower levels to be really involved and they are trying to set up an avenue for us to be heard.

FINALLY we will have a way to be heard about shows that DO NOT meet standards...and FINALLY those shows will be at risk of losing their dates! Finally we have some daylight on this whole can of worms on show milage!!!

I know it is not perfect, there is not too many days that go by that USHJA top guys don't get an email from me rattling off about something.

I just know that change was a must and this process will be painful.....but what an exciting time in our sport. There are so many possibilities and opportunities now!!!!

I know I sound like a USHJA cheerleader BUT let me tell you I am not too popular with that group as I just keep nashing at them about direction. I stand up and be heard and say things they DO NOT like but I do it anyway.....I am NOT blindly lead to the slaughter.

I am getting to the "older" part of my career and I am excited about putting in the time to try to be heard and try to offer my opinion and that opinion I feel is important to the lower levels.

Want to get involved????????????? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

jrjumpersrider

Dec. 28, 2004, 04:58 PM

way to confusing, they make this sport more and more confusing

Snowbird

Dec. 28, 2004, 05:07 PM

Not quite wtywmn4, You see that's what we all thought until it came out as a report on December 22 and 29 pages of proposed rule changes were included and they were dated as submitted December 13, 2004 to become effective 5/1/2005 for the licenses of the year 2006.

Now if in 100 days I have to apply for a license I want to know what I have to pay for it, and what I get for the fees. Is it mine for the year or not? Do I have a 3 year grandfather clause or can they decide that they like Joe Blau and give hime the date? And who make that decision and who is in charge?

You tell me How much is the fee for my 3 year License under these Rules? What do I have to do to keep my license? How will my competitors know what rating the show has if it can be changed up to 30 days before the show based on some evaluation process that I don't know done by someone and I don't know who?

Oh yes! and suppose that in it's wisdom the USHJA decides an unrecognized show is endorsed and can have level 2 points because it a great show. How will that affect the entries and when will the exhibitors know. How do we plan a calendar?

The performance record so far doesn't give me confidence in much lead time. Extraordinary means a matter of life and safety. It avoids all the committee and goes right to the top. That's fast track to the end not a beginning.

khobstetter

Dec. 28, 2004, 05:14 PM

Snowbird...please do me a favor...

Could you post the direct link to the report as posted on USEF..I can't find it....also.PLEASE post a link to the rule changes of 29 pages you are referring to..that way we will know we are all talking about the same thing.

Thanks...I am not too computer smart and I get lost.

THANKS!!!!!!

Ellie K

Dec. 28, 2004, 05:17 PM

I haven't had enough time to read it thoroughly yet, so I don't have any specific opinions to offer at this point. But "recommendations posted for review" for something this major, I think we need more than a couple of weeks time during the holiday season to digest it all, formulate our opinions, articulate them and make them heard.

If something is deemed an extraordinary rule change it means not only that it can be "looked at by the board of directors," it means that it can be voted on and approved. Again, this was posted on December 22. Right before the holidays when people are very, very busy. This is the culmination of 9 months of work by a very small task force, and it has huge long term ramifications for the sport at all levels. It is not enough time for the membership to thoroughly evaluate it and voice their questions and concerns.

Interestingly, the USEF has in this instance given its members considerably less notice than the FEI usually gives its own members (the NFs) to consider the somewhat "lesser" items of FEI rule changes, new rule books, and other matters prior to approving them at the FEI General Assembly. Instead of disseminating and discussing FEI rule changes when they are first proposed and published (usually months prior to their ratification), historically the NFs have chosen to do nothing, instead hoping there's no public uproar when the FEI info finally trickles down to the lowly masses, and then just point fingers at the FEI after the fact, saying the FEI just slipped this or that horrible thing into the rule book without any opportunity for NFs to have input, when in fact they did have that opportunity, usually over periods of many months, if they knew the procedures and weren't asleep. But they get away with it because the public doesn't have the information they have.

I think it is still worthwhile for people to voice any concerns or objections they have on this, and really lobby them at convention and before. My issue is (as usual) with the process. I feel like this is being presented at the last minute like a 'done deal' just like they always accuse the FEI of doing, and that's what bothers me. The new world ain't so different from the old.

PineTreeFarm

Dec. 28, 2004, 05:33 PM

Here's the URL, the rule changes are on the same page.

http://www.usef.org/content/rules/ruleChanges/CompDateTask.php

Rocky

Dec. 28, 2004, 05:38 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> The Affiliates Committee is made up of all the Presidents of ALL Affiliates and then whoever else really wants to be on the Committee. The Affiliates Committee will make recommendations and suggestions in most of the organizational planning now. It will make recommendations about what THEIR members need as far as date protection, show milage, approvals, rule changes and STANDARDS.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Just to throw my 2 cents in...

I am a past president(just gave up my office in November) of one of the affiliated associations, I was asked to take a seat on the committee...however, it was impossible for me do to so because I would have had to travel cross country to the meetings at my own expense, the association I am involved with runs on a tight budget and could not cover my travel expenses-on such short notice, I could not cover my travel expenses...

So, I have to wonder how many affiliate associations will actually be represented- will it be financially impossible for other associations to send representatives or will it once again be a committee of people who can "afford" to be there?

Hopeful Hunter

Dec. 28, 2004, 06:23 PM

OK.....just trying to understand (and I do get easily confused with all of this, so apologies in advance)......

For h/j shows, the local unrated circuits that have been organized and presenting shows and year end awards do NOT have to change anything under the new rules. No "necessity" of joining USEF or USHJA exists - they can just continue doing what they've been doing? Correct?

If so, this is probably good news for our area circuits, of which there are many. These are successful, competitive circuits with nice year end awards (TS britches, portraits of your horse and such) and decent shows, often using USEF-rated judges. Many of the people who show rated also use these shows to warm up, tune up or just get miles, too. Right now, they're affordable (like $10/class), accessible (close by, one day shows) and most important, pretty much open and fun. You don't even need to be an association member to show - you just don't get the year-end points if you're not (and membership is like $20-$40). There are about 15 shows on each circuit and they do well.

Preserving these shows is what I'm all about these days as they meet my own current needs, and those of many others. Without COMPELLING benefits to affiliating with either USHJA or USEF I doubt many will do so...certainly they have NO budget, are all volunteer and don't have people who can afford to pay to attend meetings. It would be nice for there to be some sort of tangible assistance that could be available to them (in terms of marketing, maybe steward training, etc) but it's probably not going to really affect them.

If that's NOT a correct understanding of the rules, please do clarify. If it is, well, I'm afraid that Mike is right and the debate probably won't touch a lot of people who do still live at the lower levels like this...

Ellie K

Dec. 28, 2004, 06:38 PM

Another thing I don't hear anyone talking about (not that it is not being talked about and I'm understandably just not privy to those discussions) is whether or not the affiliates are even capable of taking on all these new responsibilities. Some of them may very well be. My experiences with a few of them cause me to conclude that many of them are about where the AHSA was 10 years ago in terms of organizational evolution, professionalization, etc. And the USHJA of course is just getting started, which might be a good thing because there is openness to what's new, since they don't know anything else. And surely there is plenty of enthusiasm amongst top level people in H/J to see that that one gets it right.

Some of the others I think are really struggling just to do the basics. And while these new responsibilities might generate a lot of new interest in volunteerism in those affiliates, it will take YEARS for their organizational cultures to change. They have a long way to go to catch up with the USEF, IMO.

Snowbird

Dec. 28, 2004, 08:32 PM

Yes! Yes! Ok! that's my point Ellie K, it's the procedure and the way more than the what. I object to receiving an email message when I know a lot of people not electronically connected of this major change being proposed by five people. These are changes to our whole way of life and style of management.

December 22, 2004 to enforcement of licenses by 5/1/2005. That's 9 days in December 2004 and 120 days in 2006 until I have to sign a contract for a license. How many of the 80,000+ members even have a clue? This is no way to run an Federation.

I also agree that we have never given the Affiliated Associations a chance to grow and develop. We don't know how much talent there is out there because participation has always been by invitation only in the Federation.

I see this plan pushing the A/B/C shows down the ladder instead of lifting people up the ladder. There is a closed door policy. My little Association for the "econmically challenged" has discovered a great deal of talent. I'm old and I want to do something to bring out the young people who will inherit what we do with new ideas and new dreams and hopes.

I worked with Sally Wheeler on the "Hunter Incentive Committee". The idea of recognizing the Childrens and the AA Hunters was to motivate people to move up. We worked to get the Locals to be C-Rated. The unrecognized to be Locals for the level field, the licensed officials and enforced Rules, safety and insurance coverage.

I see this program as so far proposed doing the opposite. But, I agree it's a work in progress its out of committee or Task Force and now it should be our plan and our program. Give us the year the Task Force had and let's see what we can do to answer the problems and address the dreams.

I hope you will all write to the Board and say "NOT YET"! We have a lot of very clever and very dedicated young people who have not been allowed to contribute their new ideas.

Let's encourage the Affiliates to join the USEF and let's re-instate the old rule that was deleted by the NHJC. IN that rule all the members of an Affiliate could participaate in any Recognized show of any rating without paying a non-member fee as long as they didn't want to accumulate HOTY points. Let's open the doors and welcome people in and not shut them out. Why shouldn't the hunter people from all breeds be welcomed at all of our shows? Why shouldn't the Jumpers be welcomed at all of our shows?

Let the show manager choose what level of difficulty they want to offer. Why should the Federation be running the shows? Their job is regulating them not telling us what we are qualified to offer.

I don't want to see a two-tiered system of the have and the have-nots. I don't see why there shouldn't be levels of difficulty in USEF Rated Divisions. Why can't a show then offer USEF Divisions C/B/A three divisions of levels of difficulty and you win out and get promoted to the next level.

C-Rated Junior's and Am/Owner at 3'0" at the C-rated level, 3'3" at B-Rated and 3'6" at A Rated. At 3'0" those Childrens Hunters horses that are owned could move into their own division as Juniors. AA Hunters who own their own horse could move up to Am/Owner. After x number of blue ribbons they must move up and that record is part of their life-time achievement. The same to the B-Rated and eventually they earn the right to be A-Rated. It becomes a privilege instead of a penalty.
Let's not make the differences greater let's make them smaller.

Ellie K

Dec. 28, 2004, 09:46 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
Let the show manager choose what level of difficulty they want to offer. Why should the Federation be running the shows? Their job is regulating them not telling us what we are qualified to offer.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. They should be regulating who is qualified to compete at which level. Let the show management offer what they want to offer, what they think the market will bear, provided they do what they are supposed to do, provided that can be objectively assessed. Do we have that info yet? Maybe I just haven't read far enough.

I see the national body as being the source for the statistics which will help show managers make informed "business" decisions about what to offer (whether that "business" is indeed their livelihood, or a hobby, a charity, or whatever). I see the national body knowing how many people in X mile radius who are qualified to compete at level Y and who compete an average of Z number of times per year (and no I don't want them thinking they have a right to know how much $ each of these individuals has to spend on shows each year!).

I see the national body as a source of information to advise on such subjects and collect and provide the data which will make the right decisions obvious to the show manager/proprietor...oops...licensee.

MIKES MCS

Dec. 29, 2004, 07:28 AM

Rocky, This exactly my thought,

"So, I have to wonder how many affiliate associations will actually be represented- will it be financially impossible for other associations to send representatives or will it once again be a committee of people who can "afford" to be there?"

If the USHJA has the money through it's membership fees, then shouldn't they, (the 5 member or what ever committee) travel to us? Or couldn't they put together a survey that's gives everyone a chance to voice their opinion... If they really want our input their are ways to get it with out having us shell out $500.00 for plane tickets, hotels , time off from work... ect.. It should not cost a member money to be heard. If you are going to be an effective org.. that address's the needs of it's membership you need to hear from that membership. It's obvious that Khobsetter and Snowbird are very on top of this issue and I imagine they have spent countless hours and money trying to be heard. I applaud both of them for thier devotion to the sport. But my thought is tell them to bring it to us, We shouldn't have to go to them. I don't know Khobsetter how bout inviting them to start a thread On the COTH board... Yes not all members are electronically connected but heck you know how small the horse world is, the chit chat will be deafening in the shedrows across the country

khobstetter

Dec. 29, 2004, 08:29 AM

Mike...

I appreciate your thoughts BUT there would be a major revolt if the officers spent USHJA membership money to:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> If the USHJA has the money through it's membership fees, then shouldn't they, (the 5 member or what ever committee) travel to us? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Traveling to visit all of us out here in 50 states would cost 6 figures for sure.
How else could they do it...show up for a meeting at a show???..then only the BIG guns would be there...that's not a fair example.

Should they go to the Affiliates..there will be about 100 or so...that is A LOT of travel money. Should they go to each state....more $$$.

Logistically its a nightmare so I guess they do the best they can.

They posted the Report...email them and give them your input. They will welcome it!!

Call Ridland or any of the others direct and talk to them....they WILL talk to you. Howard Pike is a gem of a guy...call him!!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Or couldn't they put together a survey that's gives everyone a chance to voice their opinion... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The Affiliates Committee discussed this at length and once it is up and running it will happen..get on board and send suggestions for that questionaire.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I don't know Khobsetter how bout inviting them to start a thread On the COTH board... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
With all due respect for this BB...it is known far and wide for being a bit contentious and argumentative. I posted a thread before the Convention asking for input I could take to the floor...while I got some GREAT feedback..it turned a bit nasty.

I for one would rather see us send ideas, emails and have personal dialog instead of having them spend their time fighting off darts. This is a HUGE undertaking and wasting time arguing here, IMHO, would not be productive.

OH..throw the flames BUT we all know that any controversial thread becomes a fast train wreck.

Where do you live in the north??? Whats the local Affiliate??

MIKES MCS

Dec. 29, 2004, 08:55 AM

I respectively disagree. While the board has created huge arguments and flame fests, I think in this day and age it is the fairest means of communicating the ideas of the masses. Yes you risk unproductive venting posts... but you do get input. While I agree it's unfair to ask the USHJA or USEF board to travel to all states and it is equally unfair to ask the working class to come to them. I'm sorry but soemtimes you have to wade through the manure to find the hoofpick you dropped. While some of it may be a waste of electronic space, I think by coming here they PROVE the want opinions and suggestions. You are basically saying They shouldn't be expected to get down and dirty with the common folk... You yourself had said you have gotton some very good suggestions, but aren't you in a way doing their work for them, Taking the flack and running interference for them.. Yes I know your doing your part, but it seems that if you have found an effective way to communicate, should'nt they at least give it a try? The worst that can happen is the thread turns into a flame fest and the moderators shut it down. I think many of us would pledge to try and keep it productive and non combative... maybe keeping it in the form of a poll would help?

khobstetter

Dec. 29, 2004, 09:46 AM

Good input MIke..
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> but aren't you in a way doing their work for them, Taking the flack and running interference for them.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I am not "doing their work for them"....I am doing MY work for ME!! I have strong feelings and opinions and do not mind taking the time to have them heard. Taking "flack" is part of being involved in a process...
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> but it seems that if you have found an effective way to communicate, should'nt they at least give it a try? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I respectfully disagree with YOU this time....they are "giving it a try." They may not be doing it the way you want it done but they are trying. 10 people=10 opoinions on "how" to communicate.....there are probably zillions of opinions on how "we" would like "them" to communicate..they have to make a descision on how they can do it...and we have a choice of responding to that.

They have posted the report and the rule change proposals.....and they want input.

If people out here feel so strongly my suggestion is a huge mass deluge of mail (email or post) stating objections. If everyone who disagrees writes in I can assure you it will be heard.

But people don't want to take the effort,or maybe they don't want to be heard, or maybe they are concerned about feedback.

At the Convention when the Task Force presented the Report in it's then form (it is now more detailed and alot of work have gone into clarification).......most people just sat there. I stood up and said..."either the crowd agrees with everything you have presented OR they don't believe it will EVER happen." That got a huge rolling laugh.

IMHO the consensus is that at least we are going somewhere and not sitting stagnant in the boiling fight that took years and $$$$$.

Again, I applaud your interest and REALLY REALLY REALLY ask you to send emails with your opinion.......if people don't chose to take the time to send input then people have no right to gripe....IMHO!!!!!

Snowbird

Dec. 29, 2004, 09:49 AM

Even though I am at the point of having reached "venerable" I can appreciate the benefits of todays electronic capabilties. We have just started a new Association which is Affiliated with the USEF. We will not have offices, I think that is a waste of both money and time. We can all connect with each other and the varying schedules by using this wonderful internet. The lack of communication is just a poor excuse for bad management.

There is no reason why there cannot be Forums just as the one we are on. The high up muck mucks can have their own with a pass word if they like. It is possible to take polls daily on any issue that is controversial or needs supporting information. We have delegates and hopefully we will have one for each state. They can print out and mail or forward information to anyone not connected online.

We will do an Electronic News Letter which will in essence be a ballot of the larger issues with a pro/con and general information block and ask for votes. We can set up a chat room for meetings that need more spontaneity. Here's a concept have the meeting in your area where people can attend and broach the issues in the News Letter take votes and forward.

It is a poor excuse today with a staff that takes two pages in Equestrian Magazine that we cannot be kept informed and aware. It is not being done because they don't want it so. The USHJA in its format did not design a democratic or republican form of governance. It started by invitation only and has stayed that way. It's convention committees were by invitation only.

If you don't give people the opportunity to feel that their opinion will make a difference why should they bother to volunteer.

The Task Force made no effort to reach a large number of people. The largest group was at Gladstone WHY? There were only a half dozen people at any session. That's no way to get suggestions.

I agree that it would not be economically sensible to waste membership money traveling around the country. Personally, I don't think they should have spent $100,000 on a Convention.

This format and Forum base is ideal for broad communication all over the country at times that are convenient for all interested parties. They can restrict it if they wish by having Membership Numbers as the sign in. Where there is a will there is a way if they want to have our opinions and make it our association.

The Chronicle has successfully managed this site without catastrophe for 6 years. That proves it can be done. Minutes of meetings held can be posted, agendas for meetings coming up can be posted. And, anyone can do it from anywhere at whatever time they have available.

Snowbird

Dec. 29, 2004, 10:21 AM

OH! Kathy that's such and old song! People don't care, people don't participate it's always someone else's fault. My Momma taught me that if people don't care it's because you're doing something wrong and they don't think you care about them.

I don't think anyone wants someone to take care of us and make decisions for us and then tell us what we should do and how.

A corporation formed for the purpose of Education like the USHJA should be educating us. Where is the report of the Convention held in November on their web site. Where are the conclusions of all these hard working committees? What was the data, the substance of the dialog that ended in conclusions?

The USEF is a Regulatory Corporation they are by law prevented from manageing horse shows. If they want to manage all the shows then they should share in the losses and take a piece of the profits legitimatly and not with "fines for violations" of rules we didn't even know were changed.

When was the concept changed from the fact that each show was an individual entity? When and where was it decided that all the shows of the same management were a package? Shows have been deprived of their dates for an indebtedness. BUT the shows were not in debt to the Federation. If one show is late or hasn't yet paid when and who decided that meant that every show by the same management was in peril. When and where was the rule change made?

I surely didn't hear anything about the rule being changed that each show was a separate Member. Isn't that why our Prize List says the name of the show and lists it as a "Regular Member." What will it say now Licensed to Management Group...?

The Task Force was sworn to secrecy they were not allowed by virtue of their oath to give us a clue about what they were considering. Finally the Report came out on December 22, 2004 and it is not radically different than the original report presented July 6, 2004. If you like I'll post it for you. So where were the benefits and information from all the meetings?

We were promised terms and conditions that were "definable and measurable". The words were there there but where are the terms and conditions? What exactly is "flexible logic"?

These Kathy are the resaons why people are hesitant and reluctant to particpate. If you are intelligent you can't have an opinion unless you know the issue and the facts. Well is the issues aren't posted and the facts are not published then don't blame people who are your membrs for not participating and expressing opinions.

khobstetter

Dec. 29, 2004, 10:23 AM

Snowbird...loved this post!!!

I beg to differ with you on a point or two...
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> It's convention committees were by invitation only.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
ABSOLUTELT NOT SO !!! I am on Committees because I emailed and asked to be on specific Committees. I emailed more than once and am now on a couple. They DID NOT seek me out as most of them didn't even know I exist!! Now they do.. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> The Task Force made no effort to reach a large number of people. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
They indeed had a 2 hour presentation at the USHJA Convention followed by lengthy input and discussion from the floor....
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I don't think they should have spent $100,000 on a Convention.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree....they would like to hope for sponsorship for the Convention..I personally think the Convention was invaluable!!!!!!
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> It is a poor excuse today with a staff that takes two pages in Equestrian Magazine that we cannot be kept informed and aware. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
BOY do we agree on this one!!!!

Can I suggest that you take the first part of your last post, clarify a couple of points and send it to "them".... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Snowbird

Dec. 29, 2004, 10:36 AM

Kathy my friend they have received my opinions on many occasions and are very well versed in them and have made the specific decision to differ with them. That is their choice as the Official Affiliate. I am simply pointing out that it is not the members who are to blame for not participating.

They notified only a few and their meeting was scheduled with such a short advance time frame that many had other plans. November is a busy month because it ends the year for a lot of states, and, as well for the USEF.

It cost one person I know who did attend $1800 and she could get away because she doesn't run a farm. You have to feel like you are very important people to want to spend that for a few days on my budget.

The Convention was not a convention it was a loosely planned Annual Meeting as required by law. Maybe I could agree that it was invaluable if I saw Minutes from meetings, reports from committees or even some of the good ideas that were rejected. From my outsider perspective it just just looked like very expensive entertainment.

MIKES MCS

Dec. 29, 2004, 10:39 AM

Snowbird, I wish I had your communication abilities, You have summed up exactly how I feel. In this day and age I believe if an organization wants to be in touch with the pulse of their membership there is no reason why they can't, it is meerly a matter of want. Khobsetter you also made my point for me, The USHJA didn't seek you out , you had to seek them out. In our recent Presidential election... if the candidates hadn't sought out voters and opinions, if they waited for us to find them, where would we be. You cannot expect "the People to reach out to you" If you don't reach out to them. Snowbird is right and I tend to agree with her assesemt , If they truly wanted to communicate there wouldn't be a question as to how, it's obvious.

Snowbird

Dec. 29, 2004, 10:54 AM

Maybe they should consider firing the Executive Director and hiring a Recording Secretary and an Internet Technician. I'm certain there are thousands of college kids would love a part time job.

wtywmn4

Dec. 29, 2004, 03:14 PM

Jumping in with both feet, zipping suit, and taking a gulp of air. Mike, as you profoundly stated the USHJA did not reach out to all of us. But it was advertised, was printed, we were given the hows on where and when. It was up to us, the membership to say yes or no on this. The Presidential elections cost millions of dollars for both parties to reach out. Our lowly organizations do not have that type of funding. No matter what anyone thinks. It would have been impossible and utterly ridiculous to spend that kind of $$$'s. I did go. My biggest objection was location and a very short time slot to get thru everything. Yes, it did cost me $$$'s. Which given a choice, I would have spent on something else. But I believe that this is important to all of us. I saw people there from all over who were "common folk" like myself. We may not have agreed with all that was said, but we did get heard. This too is a very important thing. My personal feeling is that many affiliates are taking a wait and see attitude. We have been touted to many new organizations which after the first big Yahoo, do nothing or disappear. I hope that this is not the case. And from what I have seen it seems not to be.

My point is that we need not to ignore the new organization or sit here and say "well they won't listen to me". Thats too easy of an excuse. We need to get into the thick of things, pick up the phone, email people and let them know what our feelings are. If we don't like something, start with your zone committees. Tell them, you want your feelings pushed forward to the USHJA. That what ever it is, is important to you and your affiliate organization. And Snowbird, we are all beating our drums, maybe just a little different step for some of us.

khobstetter

Dec. 29, 2004, 04:27 PM

Thanks wtywmn..

I was feeling sort of lonely!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Snowbird

Dec. 29, 2004, 04:43 PM

From what I heard at the midyear Board Meeting the Zones are kaput. Mr. Moroney said the zones have never worked and need to be phased out. There is nothing in the budget for a Zone Program and all 12 zones only have one seat on the Board. Sorry wtywmn I don't think that's good place to start.

No contact information posted on the Website about to reach any members of the Board or any committee chairmen. No report from the Convention telling any of us what ever happened that couldn't get there. They missed a great opportunity to tell us something with the full page they had for the Convention in Equestrian but there was no news at all.

Anyway, this topic is about the USEF Task Force and has to do with all Affiliates and not just ours. In the Report it says on Page 8; License fees may be modified during the term of a License but it doesn't say how much we start at. It says that expiration dates of the License can be modified at any time.

If costs go up substantially who do you think will have to pay the difference?

CBoylen

Dec. 29, 2004, 05:37 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
No contact information posted on the Website about to reach any members of the Board or any committee chairmen. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
There will be contact information for all members of all committees added to the website, or so I was told recently. As I understand it, people of course being people, there were a lot of loose ends to tie up before committee lists were final, and all of their information had to be gathered and organized for addition to the website.
As far as the convention, I didn't attend, as for me the notification was a bit short notice, and I had many other things going on that week, including people coming to try horses and moving into my new house. I wish I had gone, as I've heard lots of favorable reports, and I would have liked to be part of the initial organization. However, USHJA was very understanding about the fact that in this first year of being the affiliate it was difficult for many to get to their convention, and is allowing people that didn't attend to be involved, with the understanding that they will attend meetings of whatever form in the future. I certainly plan to attend the convention next year, and I hope other people who want to be useful will do so as well.
If you want to be involved there are many ways open to you, whether that involves sitting on a committee or simply addressing your concerns to a member of a relevant committee.

And Mike, they did seek me out. I hadn't expected to be a part of the USHJA, but I was glad to receive an offer to join the horse welfare committee, and I plan on being just as useful as those who offered their services like KHobstetter.

That all being said, to the topic at hand. Personally, I'm still working out how I feel about the Task Force Report, but I think that was the point of it. We're talking about it, looking at specific points, when previously all you hear around the shows was the cry for the demolition of the mileage rule. At this point I think some of you are looking for too many details, when all they've got is a big picture. However, that's an important step, and they've left themselves enough time to work out the details before the plan is implemented, and they're asking for imput to help them work out those details.
I myself love the part about viewable online show and facility ratings. That's something I'd be glad to do, and I've never filled out an evaluation form in my life. I'm sure I'm not alone. I think that's a huge step in taking members' opinions into consideration in a convenient manner, as well as being extremely helpful to those members looking for good shows to attend.

A. Roose

Dec. 29, 2004, 05:40 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
A.Roose it's just the tango of love. But if you don't like it skip our threads unless you want to dance with us. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately, Snowbird, it's not that easy. Often your threads have some good information in them, as this one would have if it hadn't gotten bogged down by the fantastical tales of another poster and the carping. So I try to read them and learn.

But I guess if you don't want to "learn" me, that is your right. Carry on with your love fest and I'll just go to other sources.

Snowbird

Dec. 29, 2004, 06:05 PM

I apologize A.Roose and I do want you to understand my points. I am more than happy to give my perspective as a member of the "Economically Challenged" lower levels of "little" people the unforgiving.

C.Boylen what you say would have merit if the web site had been updated any time between now and July 6, 2004 with the same energy of purpose as the Rule Changes to get mandatory membership fees which took a record breaking 12 days.

It is difficult to contact anyone with no contact information for them whatever the points or issues.

And, I could accept your evaluation that the Task Force Report was a work in progress if there were not 29 pages of Rule Changes proposed and submitted on December 13, 2004 while the Report was first published only on December 22, 2004. Being the holidays I think it is likely very few people are even aware of its existence. I don't think anyone has read the Proposed Rule Changes which will implement this abstract work in progress as of May 1, 2005.

I see nothing in this proposal that warrants treatment of these Rule Changes as Extraordinary. Certainly there is no great hardship if we continue for some time extra with a program that has worked well since 1975 albeit it could use some corrections. Certainly there is no eminent danger for the Federation or it's members and horses if there is time to give it due consideration.

The Task Force had a year certainly the members are entitled to a few months after the holidays and for discussion at the Annual Meeting which is only a fews days away.

At the July Meeting the General Counsel implied this would stop further litigation. I don't see how that could be so when everything is an ambiguous flux of undefined terms, conditions and even fees. I'm not a legal but I can see easily several actions that could be brought based on the Competition Evaluation and the fact that the Competition Department is solely in charge of multiple significantly different individual agreements.

Surely, The Board doesn't seriously believe that it can delegate it's responsibilities to the Official Affiliates in order to remain safe. And, surely they know they cannot delegate their responsibilities as individuals on this Board of Directors to employees or agents without responsibility.

Beezer

Dec. 29, 2004, 07:24 PM

Once again ... I am so confused. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

From what I can understand, the USwhatever has finally had a glimmer of understanding of a realization that it is missing out on a huge group of people who are happily showing at the lower levels (i.e. county-rated and big schooling circuits) and who are not putting money into its coffers. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

So, to bring them -- and their money http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif -- back in, they tried to figure out a way to woo them.

Only trouble is, as much as I can figure, they didn't ask the people they want to woo HOW they wanted TO be wooed. They pretty much talked among themselves (i.e. the board and committees) and offered up a pretty weak marriage proposal.

As other posters on this thread have said, there is nothing in these new proposals that would make already successful county and local/schooling shows feel compelled to join in. Or to make those of us who enjoy competing at those venues to cough up money to the national body.

I may get skewered for this, but I am a lapsed USwhatever member. Yet we somehow manage to go to more quality horse shows than we need to (including the A's when the spirit moves us http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif ), get our homebreds sold into good show homes, improve our riding skills and get a great deal of enjoyment from our beasties. The association, in its multiple forms, simply ceased to be of value to us.

I wanna be wooed, DAMMIT!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Snowbird

Dec. 29, 2004, 08:13 PM

Yes! Beezer you got it! And the people they have they take for granted and so they're not wooing them because they think they've been had.

MIKES MCS

Dec. 30, 2004, 06:35 AM

C.Boylen, You too have made my point... You're well known and well respected in the horseshow world. It's not surprising that "they" would seek you out. But (no insult intended) you are of the upper level. You are among those who already have a voice. It's the ones like Snowbird and myself who see the horseshow world closing ranks by economic worth. You remember the days when anyone (with a wing ands a prayer ) could go to the USET trials in Gladstone. Did most have a chance, HECK NO but they had the opportunity to go and at least give it a try. Now a young rider (99% of them anyway) better have the money and the horses to back up their hopes. I see talented riders all the time, the dream, they hope, and they haven't got a chance. They don't have the money to attend the shows to qualify for the finals of anything. THE USHJA cannot address this issue because they simply cannot think in terms of the economically challenged. The horse show world at the top , THE WEF, Hits, Indio ect.. that's the people they are addressing, Yes the USHJA and the USEF may want our $50 Bucks or whatever.. but that's all they want from us, because at this point and time their is absolutely nothing they can do or offer us. We have our own Assoc's and horse shows which address are needs. If the rings, or org or stabling or whatever is bad we don't go back to those shows. They improve themselves out of necessity or fall by the wayside. Competition is a great motivator for self improvement, and it is the one thing maybe this NEW ORG. has addressed, The mileage rule with it's protected dates has lead to Horse show management in some cases being a bit Lax. So I guess if this changes at the "AA" level and these folks can expect some sort of consistency in their venues well great for them , Then their money has been well spent.

Nadonyalife

Dec. 30, 2004, 07:04 AM

Paging khobstetter....you have a PT!

Snowbird

Dec. 30, 2004, 12:13 PM

Yes! that's the point Mike and what bothers me a whole lot is that Level 6 in the proposal includes these associations which have already chosen not to participate and are happy at the expense of the C/B/Local Shows who have been participating diligently for the past 50 years.

It seems to me that the sell-out of those who chose to share the costs of the USEF for what little benefit there is will be motivated to drop out and become unrecognized and "endorsed". I don't see how this can improve the situation for the average competitor.

Not everyone has a well run unrecognized association and the one security that an entry level rider had was if the show was sanctioned it met minimum standards. I've been willing to support USEF becaue I felt I was helping to support a good licensing of Officials program for better judging and rule enforcement for a level field of competition.

What is my motivation then to continue if an unrecognized show can be endorsed and offer what I offer for half the costs. I may be gullible but I'm not stupid and I want my competitors to have a bargain too. Therefore the gap between the haves and the have-nots will expand. Can the USEF support the programs on just the fees from the AA shows?

Endorsed shows and Associated shows are not licensed at all so they contribute no fees. Membership in USEF is not required and the Affiliates will be enriched. So the Federation is demeaned and the Affiliated glorified. How is that going to help the improvements needed in this sport? It seems to me that the big umbrella is going to shrink quite a bit.

Hopeful Hunter

Dec. 30, 2004, 12:56 PM

Snowbird, as I'm reading it the "endorsed" shows WOULD have to pay a fee, and would get precious little for it. Unless I'm totally wrong, and may well be, it seems to me that the Level 6 is for non-rated but "want to be endorsed by the official powers" shows...BUT the currently non-rated shows don't HAVE to become "endorsed" unless they choose to. Basically, they can pay for the endorsement, or just continue on their current way.

But...I'm with Beezer. I got nothing from the national group since I'm not an A-level rider. My local associations gave me much more for the money. I'd hoped the new affiliate might offer me substantial tangible benefits, but that doesn't seem to be the case. So, for me, too, I don't see a lot of value in losing my independence as it were and paying for the privilege. I'm willing to wait and see what we get, but I won't be recommending to the groups I do show with to plunk down any money any time soon - I'd rather see them keep it and keep improving on an already good circuit.

MIKES MCS

Dec. 30, 2004, 01:03 PM

Snowbird, I'd be curious as to your opinion on my Brainstorm. Keep in mind this is just a fantasy... But what if,

Take one Class say The USET Young Rider Class.

Allow *ANY* H/J horse show with a Rated Judge to hold this class.

A portion of the Entry goes to the Governing Body.Plus an intial recording participation fee.

Season begins in May, Ends Middle of August, with a state Championship held in Late August with all winners of #? Blue ribbons qualified for a State final. (Location to be awarded to qualified Facility which has a history of running Quality shows)

Winners of State Finals and 2nd Place Qualify to go to GLADTONE NJ for Finals in 1st weekend of SEPT (Labor Day)

Portion of monies which were collected through entry and recording fees for participation in this class are allocated to riders who qualify to help offset costs of traveling to finals on a per mileage per rider basis. (0.50cents per mile).

Winners (top 10 placements) recieve Scholorships to train & show from 1 month to a year with Trainer of thier choosing.

Now wouldn't this level the playing field a bit?

Just a thought but whata ya think?

khobstetter

Dec. 30, 2004, 01:19 PM

Mike...your "idea" was discussed at length, with a different spin...but you are right on line with the discussions...

AGAIN I ask that you get involved..

MIKES MCS

Dec. 30, 2004, 01:39 PM

Ok Ok Ok , I give up Khobsetter you have shamed me into it, I will write down my Ideas and summit them to the powers that be for their attention. Good God I'm gonna need my MS WORKS! Just remember YOU STARTED THIS so be prepared for a long email because your getting the first copy!

Snowbird

Dec. 30, 2004, 02:23 PM

I'd like a copy too Mike. There is another new Association that is being launched at the USEF Convention and while it is Affiliated it is not the Official Affiliate and I would like the committees there to consider your ideas as well.
vikki@usahorseshows.org

I think the concept is excellent and I feel that we have to choose between the current Increment System or the mileage rule and the losing the protection of mileage doesn't bother me at all.

I agree that the big block as been that things like the NAL and WIHS as well as the some of the Equitation Classes have been limited to USEF shows and if they could be offered on the unrecognized circuit it would improve competition for everyone. If what we want is maximum participation then that is the door that needs to be opened.

At this point I don't think we should need to be a Member of USEF or USHJA and we should be able to compete in any classes or divisions of our choice.

The Marshall & Sterling has been a trailblazer in that arena. And, while I was a critic I am not ashamed to admit I have changed my mind and I think they have had great forsight as to what's in the best interest of this sport. You can have their Classes an Divisions at any show whether or not it is sanctioned by anyone.

MIKES MCS

Dec. 30, 2004, 02:34 PM

Will Do Snowbird, Ok I'm outta here until Monday, Happy New Year to all, Hope to catch up with you all next week , so someone bump this thread if it gets buried. I trust you and Khobsetter will continue to shake things up while I'm gone. I'm sure I will recieve more visions in regard to the New Affiliate through the bubbles of my Champagne

khobstetter

Dec. 30, 2004, 03:00 PM

Mike...I look forward to your email..

Have a toddy for me..I am stuck at home http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

wtywmn4

Dec. 30, 2004, 03:47 PM

Snowbird, once again you have peaked my interest. You say there's another new Association being launched at the USEF convention? What will this one do, and what is it going to be about? And please, don't tell me I have to go to find out... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

Snowbird

Dec. 30, 2004, 05:27 PM

Well it's pretty simple it's an association within the Federation for the "economically challenged" who will probably not be able to be licensed by the Federation and who do not want to go unrecognized altogether.

usAHSA.org started for a different reason but there are so many who feel they will be disenfranchised because they want to volunteer and they are talented and they want to do good for the sport and are not "VIP" have never won a HOTY award and never expect to, but enjoy competition as a recreational activity.

This is a pure cooperative run by the members for the members and to deal with simple problems as they occur that require information advice and assistence. There are 1100 members and so far delegates from 10 states who will then work within their states to see what we can do help them. Uncomplicated, unsophisticated and hopefully as well intentioned as it starts. An association for those for whom this is a recreational sports activity. The first event will be a fundraiser for Rutger's Equine Science Center which is need of funding and if all goes well a Regional Finals Labor Day weekend.

You must remember when you could qualify for the Pony Finals with a Champonship from a C-rated Show. As conservative pleasure seekers we will create our own qualifying events from those shows which join us. OR we'll find a way that works.

My personal interest is saving the small horse farms to keep open space for the use of horses and to hopefully raise enough money to support a research project on ways to process manure so it can be our farm product.

oxerdown

Dec. 30, 2004, 05:34 PM

Lets face it. Don't you think that people so scared of a date allocation task forces rulings are just people scared they may loose some show dates? Sounds to me like some sub-par shows may be in danger, and some folks are scrambling to stay afloat! The word show standards sure gets a few people running!

findeight

Dec. 30, 2004, 05:39 PM

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

wtywmn4

Dec. 30, 2004, 06:22 PM

Okay, so now Snowbird what has happened to the NHJA? Is it still functioning? And is there a difference between the two? Cause I thought that was what the NHJA was supposed to be doing. And aren't we dilluting the whole thing with so many organizations? Sorry for all the questions.

Snowbird

Dec. 30, 2004, 07:17 PM

Oxerdown, don't you see there are the people without delusions who want to keep their farm and need a little extra income to pay for college for the kids, or make the mortgage payment. They do a good job, it's fair and it's fun and they have people who like their shows. They want to have Stewards, they pay their dues and they follow the rules and put on a pleasant safe show. They have the insurance, they hire the medic and licensed judges. Most give out trophies and fancy ribbons. They buy new obstacles each year and they take care of their footing but they are little shows. Everyone goes home happy because everyone gets a ribbons. The trainers are happy they get paid because their kids get a ribbon. Mom and Dad are happy because Susie feels good about herself.

I can understand that in the big picture of important people Susie doesn't matter a whole lot. They understand that as far as a road to the Olympics they're not on it. These are people who do this because it's a great day out. 30 years ago we all were like that. I run one of those little inconsequential show series that isn't going to get people qualified for anywhere, but we had almost 500 at our Annual Awards Dinner. We have good shows, we have happy exhibitors and they come here from all over because it's a nice show and where to spend the day.

It's like I said to John Long, no one at my shows is going to buy a Lexus or a Rolex. They have kids and a limited income. I worked with Sally Wheeler because I believe in the premise of being inclusive. OK! I've accepted reality so I'm glad there are people like me who are willing to work for what they believe in. As a Grandmom I'm thrilled to know there is more than making money. At my age I want to see happy young riders who are proud of themselves. I'm delighted that there are some people in the younger generation that agree.

I want to work from within the system and to help the system as much as I can. I believe in the Licensed Officials Program. I want clinics that will rotate around the country so we can have more good Judges and Stewards. I believe in drug free horses and riders. I'm not a pessimist, I'm an optimist I believe that people are basically good and a police state mentality turns them into cheaters.

Snowbird

Dec. 30, 2004, 07:48 PM

wtywmn4, there is room for a lot of different perspectives. I admired the fact that Gary Baker pushed us for representative governance from the C/B Level. NHJA is a lobby group, they have the best democratic by-laws that have ever been offered in this sport. It's a great association and I'm a life member of it. There is a reason to belong to it.

The USEF is a good place to be and the Board of Directors are good people who try hard and all have their own affiliates. I think that if David O'Connor had kept his promise to us and there had been criteria and it had been published and everyone who wanted could have applied then the hunter people could have chosen their own Affiliate and it could have been part of our Zone ballot.

In this case I find it conflicted that the Task Force submits 29 pages of rule change proposals before the Board of Directors even approved the plan. I went to the Board Meeting mid year and I heard the Board say they didn't think either the NHJA or the USHJA had a business plan.

So as an optimist I want to see lemonade out of lemons. The disenfranchised who still think of this as a family recreational activity need a place too. USHJA is not a bad thing, it fits the formula for where they want to go.

usAHSA doesn't need offices. They will spend that money other ways. They can function within the system. NHJA will lobby for the interests of the C/B level competitor from within the system. usAHSA will take all those who would otherwise go unrecognized without a level playing field, without the minimum of fairness and do their thing with those who otherwise would be left out of the system.

It isn't an either or situation, there is room for all of us. I could do the "VIP" circuit, I know how. I have exhibitors who could afford it but don't want to do it. I know its hard to understand but I didn't buy a farm to live on the road five days a week. I agree that kids should go to school as a Mom I hated it when the music teacher thought that was beginning an end of the universe. As miserable as the weather is on the mountain in the winter, I don't want to go to Florida for four months.

Small achieveable goals that feel good and make people happy is just another perspective of this sport. Kids learning to raise money for good things that need to be done is a good thing. I hope we can help Rutger's raise money for their Equine Science Center. I hope we can find a way to save the family farm. I won't find that answer in Florida.

I don't want to lobby anyone as the NHJA will do.If the world needed to depend on my diplomatic skills we'd be in deep doo-doo. But, I love people all kinds of people. I love horses, all kinds of horses and I love dogs all kinds of dogs. I do want to help to make people feel good and feel as if they are valuable.

khobstetter

Dec. 30, 2004, 10:39 PM

Snowbird..

Arn't you talking about the organization you recently started???? How will it be "launched" at the Convention? Is it on the agenda....I didn't see it listed?? Who is going to "launch" it there? Isn't it one of the Affiliates like the others listed on USHJA??

I read you organizations information on the site and it looked interesting BUT it sounds from your posts that it will be THE Affiliate of the Affiiates.

Can you give us some more information??

Thanks.....

Who knows about this that will present it at the Convention??

wtywmn4

Dec. 31, 2004, 06:39 AM

Thanks Snowbird. But have to say, I thought the local unrecognized shows/circuits were doing what you say the usAHSA.org is going to do. The ones I am aware of do all this. Isn't this one more way of luring the unrated shows into the flock, so to speak?

Doubleeez

Dec. 31, 2004, 06:49 AM

wtywmn4 - NHJA is alive and well and will start its 15th year in 2005. We are basically a lobbying group as Snowbird states, but we are not solely dedicated to the B/C groups. Lots of our input has been with the rules for the A rated shows. Since USHJA was chosen as the USEF h/j affiliate, we have become affiliated members of USHJA. Many of their members are also NHJA members. Our main thrust centers around the current rules and proposed USEF rule changes. We survey our members (and many non-members) annually asking for their opinions on proposed changes and then carry their wishes to the USEF at their annual meeting. We have no "high score " awards program. We do, however, offer one award annually, the NHJA Owner Recognition Award, given to a member who is a show horse owner and in the estimation of the committee, has shown outstanding service to the industry. Each year it is presented at the USEF Horse of the Year Awards dinner. Some refer to us as a "watchdog" group and that we are. There is definitely a place for NHJA in our sport.

Ellie Estes
NHJA Sec/Treas

khobstetter

Dec. 31, 2004, 08:33 AM

Ellie, I believe that NHJA still has a very important place in our sport. Just from attending your forums at both Conventions and speaking to your Board, I certainly hope it stays alive and extremely active.

I don't know a proper term for it now except that it functions as a terrific Ad Hoc group from what I have seen.

Thanks to you and Gary, and the others, for staying the course when things got a little rough out there.

Snowbird

Dec. 31, 2004, 08:43 AM

The point is every area of the country is different I understand there are some that do have great unrecognized self sufficent circuits and that's wonderful and the idea of this being sort of a Better Business Bureau type of thing I think will be helpful.

Here in the northeast like everywhere we have good unrecognized groups and very bad ones. How is a new entry level person supposed to know which is which. If they get attached to the wrong one we lose a rider. New people need a place to call or contact if they have a problem or a question. the "little" people as Mason Phelps calls us including show managers need some one to answer their questions and steer them in the right direction.

I've been doing that for free for years but let's face reality my time is running out and I'd like for something to take my place. So this idea of a kind of "Good House Keeping Seal of Approval" or a "Visitor's Bureau". Not breed emphatic I happen to like a lot of breeds and understand a lot of disciplines because I was very fortunate to have known so many really good horsemen. They all could do anything with any kind of horse.

usAHSA will need to find it's own identity but it should be an "irritant" for those who bend the rules and the stick down the back for the whimps afraid to defend themselves.

Say someone has a kid that wants to learn to ride and they don't know the difference between english, western and saddle seat. Where would they go to find out? If they meet one of the hot shots and get told they have to buy a $100,000 pony to be competitive they'll run backwards so fast they'll look like a blip disappering on the radar screen.

Or they want to know what's involved in buying a riding outfit, or what is involved in competitons. Some show managers need help not discipline to improve their shows. There are a bunch of people looking for riders and a bunch of talented kids who can't afford a horse. Protecting the farm and trying to keep the cost of operation down is a big item.

We are no longer included in the schools as a part of "Career" day when the kids are introduced to all the possibilities for a career. There are less and less people keeping horses at home because they don't know anything about animal management.

I have a discount plan for our shows and if other show managers want to try it they can join us and see how it works. If they don't want to that's fine to, they can still join and do things their way and maybe we can learn from them.

Think of a Farmers Cooperative where everyone shares information. Today you need numbers that work together in order to accomplish anything. So there has to a sensible affordable way to be competitive with achievable goals. 30 some years ago the AHSA did that and it worked.

Everything old isn't bad! Look at me. I'm brash and noisy but I do get people to think and I do believe that one person can make a difference. And, even if we don't agree I enjoy the debate. You never know where a good idea is going to come from.

USHJA has their philosophy and there will be a lot of people who agree with them. There will also be a lot of people who feel left out and those will be ours.

I took my vacation money and spent it on brochures and to sponsor two breaks at the convention. We have been affiliated with the USEF because the Federation is important. Maybe we can start "fan" clubs for our top athletes (I mean the hores). usAHSA is a nonprofit corporation that can raise money and support causes and help people to learn and achieve their goals. No point in vacations anymore anyway, my husband can't be more than 5 minutes away from a bathroom and I can't walk much.

I think we all need a trade association which can teach us marketing, business skills, what products are available to solve what problems. We need young people who know the difference between hay. They need to know about feeding grain or pellets. There's a lot of knowledge out there that you all take for granted but it isn't easily available. If they're going to take over this industry they need help learning.

Contrary to popular opinion I'm not a pessimist who sees only bad things I'm the opposite the perpetual dreamer who believes ultimately in the good of people and I think they need a chance. That's one thing this industry has never tried "democracy" with a small d. I hope usAHSA will amaze you with what it can accomplish for how little cost.

A lot of wonderful bright and intelligent young people have made the committment to this idea and I'm just there as the venerable aged savant.

Beezer

Dec. 31, 2004, 11:11 AM

Snowbird, it sounds like what you're doing is great. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif But is the group you're calling usAHSA different from the other group **I think** you were working with before -- NHJA, the one Ellie is with -- or is it another name for the same group?

Once again, I am so confused. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

I think there is a deep, deep need for the kind of information you're talking about. And I'd love to see one of the brochures you had made up. Who knows ... maybe I could interest some people out here. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Snowbird

Dec. 31, 2004, 12:27 PM

Yes! it is completely different. The NHJA was an applicant for becoming the Official Hunter/Jumper Delegate, they have been an affiliated association for 15 years. They applied for 501(c)(3) nonprofit status and reorganized to do so. I volunteered to help them by typing the By-Laws. I worked with their attorney and he made sure everything was in compliance. I was pleased to help because it was a very democratic structure and if you look at their web site you will see by their flow chart which illustrates the difference between them and the USHJA. However the USHJA was selected even though it was not an Affilated Association and was organized quickly just for the purpose of being appointed. And I wlll cooperate to the extent I am needed.

the usAHSA was organized under the IRS as a Nonprofit sports activity club and for purposes of competition and education. I wanted a way to get sponsors who would be interested in helping support small horse farms and talented young riders and to be able to use that donation as a charitable deduction instead of as a business expense.

When the current issues came to the front a lot of the shows which felt they would not be able to be licensed needed an alternative because they don't want to compete with the inrecognized shows that have no rules. The competitors also were concerned because many of those cannot afford to compete at the expensive shows or stay in motels five days a week.

This is just an extension of what I have always done at no charge. People called me and asked if they could join our programs. I was thrilled that there were young people who cared as much as I do about affordable competition with good goals that were achievable. Not everyone whether they can afford it or not believes that you should buy a $200,000 horse for a teen anymore than you should buy them a Lambrogini for their first car.

The brochures are at the Printer and I will be happy to send one to you if you want to email me your address. We will after the Annual Meeting also start our FREE electronic newsletter and ballot. We have been accepted as an Affiliated Association of USEF so that our members can save $10 if they need to join USHJA. The brochure will also be available on line. Our links will be on the USEF site and our news included in Equestrian.

While I am an innovator and to that extent a rebel I believe in the Federation and have belonged for over 30 years. It is our plan to work within the system and to supplement what otherwise would not be done. Our Rule Book will be very much what it was when we had the AHSA as to simple understandable rules that don't change every day.

Snowbird

Jan. 1, 2005, 10:42 AM

Happy New Year! For those sleeping off last nights bash I thought I'd bump this so it doesn't die on page 5.

CBoylen

Jan. 1, 2005, 01:56 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by MIKES MCS:
C.Boylen, You too have made my point... You're well known and well respected in the horseshow world. It's not surprising that "they" would seek you out. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm also young, little, female, and most of the people involved with these associations have known me since I was two years old. None of that helps one to be taken seriously. So, I think if USHJA is willing to give me a chance to be useful they would be glad to offer that same chance towards anyone similarly inclined, regardless of their background.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>But (no insult intended) you are of the upper level. You are among those who already have a voice. THE USHJA cannot address this issue because they simply cannot think in terms of the economically challenged. The horse show world at the top , THE WEF, Hits, Indio ect.. that's the people they are addressing, Yes the USHJA and the USEF may want our $50 Bucks or whatever.. but that's all they want from us, because at this point and time their is absolutely nothing they can do or offer us. We have our own Assoc's and horse shows which address are needs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Okay, so I've been hearing for years how those that do the lower level or unrecognized circuits wanted national recognition and a chance to be involved with the overall organization of our common sport. Now, when you have your chance to get involved, you're telling me there's nothing that you want that you don't already have? Are you sure?
And, if you truly believe that no one else can think in your terms then you need to bring your terms to them.

Snowbird

Jan. 1, 2005, 06:48 PM

I think the point is so far it's been basically by invitation or those people who agreed with them and no dissenters need apply. It is not a big welcome when there is no contact information, no reports of activities, no reports from committees and no information about proposed Rule Changes.

I think it is unfair to assume that because we of the "lower Levels" request the opportunity to be heard that we are complaining or shirking our responsibilities. I'm really bored with the idea that others should think for us and we should be grateful for their efforts.

Have you read the 29 pages of proposed Rule Changes by the Task Force. Have you seen the proposed rules changes from the USHJA? I think if the situation were reversed you would not feel so secure. If all the people from the "lower levels" were in charge would you feel thast your interests were being protected? You can then imagine how we all feel. Especially when you consider that 98% of the income to this industry comes from us "lower level competitions.

If there were not 60/70 losers in your classes it wouldn't be nearly so much pleasure to win would it? Those show managers wouldn't be making quite so much profit without us would they? and how much would your entry fees and costs go up? So for the New Year could we have a little more tolerance and sympathy.

Yes we've made do with what we have because it was simply more pleasant since money is not why we do it.

The invitation is hollow when it's just to watch and see how important everyone else seems to be.

khobstetter

Jan. 1, 2005, 07:13 PM

Hey Snowbird..got your email..I'll go thru all of it...THANKS!!!!! At first glance it looks like you have some GREAT input!!!!!!

BUT...
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I think the point is so far it's been basically by invitation or those people who agreed with them and no dissenters need apply. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
OH MY!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I completely DIS-agree !!!! Not to start a battle...BUT this is where I get a bit miffed....people making assumptions without first hand knowledge or facts....

As most of you know, I am not afraid to voice my opinions...and Lord knows I have plenty of them.

They had ABSOLUTELY no idea who I am...just another CA trainer... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif I called, emailed, wrote letters, called again and so on ad nauseaum...and just about EVERYTHING I said was NOT in agreement with them....AT ALL.!!!

If anything I am sure they wished I would drop into the sea somewhere....BUT when I asked to be on a Committe I was welcomed !!!!

I will say again...PLEASE be heard and get involved....they REALLY do want a wide range of opoinions....

It doesn't mean they will do EXACTLY as I ask (or you ask) but I can assure you they will read it and make a genuine effort to try to understand what is wanted "out here".
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Have you read the 29 pages of proposed Rule Changes by the Task Force. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
As a matter of fact I have...I printed out all 29 pages so I could sit and read each one and make notes....with a red pen and a yellow highlighter.

The format is easy to read and understand in that there is ONLY ONE rule change proposal on a page...and some of the proposals take up more than 2-3 pages since they were detailed enough to FIRST print what the existing rule is and THEN what the changes would be.

I believe there are actually 22 "changes" and SO MANY of those are "housekeeping" changes to make everything consistent.

I have not reached an opinion on the "important" changes yet as I have not had a chance to sit and STUDY them.......BUT I was really surprised to see the format and the fact that there were not hundreds of changes as "all 29 pages of rules changes" had lead me to believe.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> The invitation is hollow when it's just to watch and see how important everyone else seems to be. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I am sorry you think that is everyone's motivation...I can assure you it is not. At the Convention there were sooooooooooooooo many just ordinary trainers, owners and folks who just wanted to see what was going on.

OH YES...the BIG NAMES were there too..but so were a big bunch of just regular people who love to ride and show horses that jump.

No flames....PLEASE... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

Snowbird

Jan. 1, 2005, 08:39 PM

Well Kathy I fully understand how you feel. I've been the token "lowly person" for several years. Patronized very politely by all those who are sympathetic that I don't understand. I too was very excited at first, but as time has gone on I realized they weren't listening.

Unfortunately, as we have our hang-ups so do they. And they just don't understand that the people at their C/B Shows and even the small A Shows could afford whatever they wanted and they have horses and talent to win for whatever they are allowed to qualify. And they are not awed by who wins the HOTY awards.

We're just really weird beause we like to sleep in our own bed at night, we think kids should go to school and that the horse world is not the alpha and omega of the universe. Like my children I'm proud of my horses and I love them. They don't have to be perfect and they don't have to win. I'll still love them all.

This is all a part of life but not a reason to live.

CBoylen

Jan. 1, 2005, 08:45 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
I think it is unfair to assume that because we of the "lower Levels" request the opportunity to be heard that we are complaining or shirking our responsibilities. I'm really bored with the idea that others should think for us and we should be grateful for their efforts. So for the New Year could we have a little more tolerance and sympathy. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
First of all, I'm assuming you have taken offense to the term lower level since you've put it in quotations. I merely used it as an offset to Mike's use of upper level, and I did not intend for it to be offensive. If you have an inclusive term for the groups of which we're talking, I'd be glad to use it. I would use grassroots, as seems to be the trend, but to me it seems a bit cutesy.
In any case, semantics aside, I'm trying to be sympathetic, but I really can't figure out what it is with which I'm sympathizing. Mike claims that "those without a voice" don't actually NEED a voice, because they have their own organizations and associations in their own areas.
You, Snowbird, want to be heard, but assume that you aren't wanted, or at least want others to assume that, when KHobstetter and I have both said that that is simply not the case.

I don't accuse anyone of shirking their responsibilities. However, I think that opportunities should not be ignored. If people are thinking for you then they are at least thinking about you. If you can add your thoughts to help direct their thought process you may come to achieve what you want. I'll be the first to admit that I have, so far, absolutely no idea what exactly that is, so you can see how your imput might be useful toward your goals.

Snowbird

Jan. 1, 2005, 09:13 PM

The Semantics are irrelevant and I appreciate your recognition as an attempt to soften the differences. I'm afraid I'm sensitive not from what you said but from others have said and reacted to you negatively when I shouldn't have.

I have simply seen no evidence that what you believe is true is so. If there was a serious attempt then information would be made available. Planning would take into consideration our differences. They have had a year to put up contact information. They have had more than a month to post a resume of what happened at the meetings at their posh Convention using Membership money and what their thinking might be. I'd like to see a Financial Report by line item to know where the money is being spent and why to buy what?

If you want to welcome people then you inform them and make yourself available. Press Releases would be nice. The minutes of the meeting in Tucson would be awesome.They had a whole year to prepare their communication methods. Put the issues on the table and ask how people feel, that's a start.

I have heard a lot of rumors as to future plans. I have had 2nd hand hearsay from a lot of people. But,it doesn't mean anything until it's in writing from the horse's mouth and not the other end. I'm too old to believe pretty words that don't go along with pretty deeds.

Most of what I have heard is in the hopper is unpleasant at best and absolutely self serving at worst. There are people out here who do not share the same need to accept the Olympic Challenge. Treated kindly they can be very responsive. I'm not fond of the image of a NEW YOUNG ARISTOCRACY. I am worried that in the pursuit of National sponsors the statistics will damage the small farms who will then be considered part of an affluent society.

I believe that both you and Kathy believe what you say and are honest and not trying to scam anyone. But many of us have been around long enough to be doubtful.I have seen this group dispose of very valuable people with great talent that didn't cost them a dime in favor of less competitent people who cost a fortune to support. I don't think the membership should be mandatory. That's not new I was opposed to it for the NHJC as well.

The entire Task Force Report is accusatory because it reads as if they think we are all cheaters.If this Affiliate is supposed to represent me and others like me then we want to hear what they plan to do before it is a passed rule.

I don't ever mind a debate and losing one, what I object to is if they don't want to tell me what they are doing and what they are planning to avoid a debate. Don't you find it sad that the only information we have is what Kathy was kind enough to tell us out here on the BB. Not that she didn't do a spectacular job but for an extra $35.00 of membership money there ought to have been an official Report and availabile on their web site and what proposals are being considered.

The USHJA used up a whole page in Equestrian telling us they were wonderful but not word about why we should think so because of what they've done. When I see them take the time and opportunity to get us involved then I'll believe both you and Kathy.

For example is USHJA a nonprofit Corporation? Does it have 501(c)(3) status? For that matter does the USEF? Do we really need two full pages in Equestrian for Staff? The budget went from $12 million to $20 million.

Karen O'Connor asked a question I would love to see answered: How much did the Hunter Discipline cost the USEF? How much income does it generate? The same for the Jumpers. And, how much of that does the USHJA expect to cover?

Do we have Zones or not? In 2005 do the Zones have to be separate corporations and raise and spend their own money? To whom will they be accountable? There was in the USEF Budget an allocation of almost a half million dollars a year for the Zone Programs, do we still have that money?

Snowbird

Jan. 2, 2005, 05:22 PM

I've updated http://www.usAHSA.org with the Reports and my comments from the Task Force. I have also linked to my Letter to the Board for anyone interested.

I haven't figured out yet how to get PDF not to send me a Blank page so If you could print it out complete it and fax it to me it would help right now.

Thank you to all of you who have sent me memberships.

MIKES MCS

Jan. 3, 2005, 07:59 AM

Ah, Back from New Years. Ok here's a question for C Boylen... What does the USHJA offer the competitor on a budget... Example. those who show 12 shows per year. Go to 1 "A" show, 3-unrated, 3-B rated 2-C show and maybe 2-AA shows all within their State.These shows incompass 4 Associations. Lets say all of these become members of the USHJA,blanketed under one ORG What do we get how does it effect the Seperate assco's? What do we the competitor gain by this. What goal can be acheived by the $5,000.00 per year competitor belonging to the USHJA and going to their shows,I am just asking or am I way off the mark here. Does being an USHJA member have nothing to do with the actual horse shows? Can a Seperate Asscoiation run USHJA classes at there shows? I am very confused by all of these new Orgs , I like SNOWBIRD grew up in the days of The AHSA , I can't help it, maybe I was naieve or maybe I am just to old to understand all this,so someone make it simple.. What does the USHJA do for it's members..

Snowbird

Jan. 3, 2005, 09:37 AM

Welcome back Mike. I hope you didn't party too much over the holiday. I like your question and I look forward to the answer you get.

As far as I can tell we're paying twice as much for half as much service. The other question tat was asked at the Board Meeting in July that I have never seen answered was "What does it cost to service the needs of the Hunters? and How much of the income of the USEF comes from the them?

The answer to that question would give us a clue as to what we're looking at down the road by way of expenses. Unfortunately, we don't get a line item financial report so we really don't know what is being spent on what out of the USEF budget of $20 million.

Can tell you what we've lost is the half million that used to go to the Zones for their programs.

CBoylen

Jan. 3, 2005, 02:51 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by MIKES MCS:
Ah, Back from New Years. Ok here's a question for C Boylen... What does the USHJA offer the competitor on a budget... Example. those who show 12 shows per year. Go to 1 "A" show, 3-unrated, 3-B rated 2-C show and maybe 2-AA shows all within their State.These shows incompass 4 Associations. Lets say all of these become members of the USHJA,blanketed under one ORG What do we get how does it effect the Seperate assco's? What do we the competitor gain by this. What goal can be acheived by the $5,000.00 per year competitor belonging to the USHJA and going to their shows,I am just asking or am I way off the mark here. Does being an USHJA member have nothing to do with the actual horse shows? Can a Seperate Asscoiation run USHJA classes at there shows? I am very confused by all of these new Orgs , I like SNOWBIRD grew up in the days of The AHSA , I can't help it, maybe I was naieve or maybe I am just to old to understand all this,so someone make it simple.. What does the USHJA do for it's members.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm probably not the person to answer this question. However, I'll attempt to the best of my ability and maybe KHobstetter can jump in and help me out. Right now, those unrated shows aren't affiliated, although they may able to become so once the task force report is implemented. Then they will be evaluated as part of the proposed online show evaluation system, and therefore you will have a better indication of what shows are suitable for you to attend, and said shows will have an incentive to improve their facilities and conditions. They will also be granted the right to use USEF rules, and the ability to store their results information with USEF databases, which will make their offices more efficient and allow them to expand their reach.
Right now, they are connected through the local associations and organizations that are becoming affiliates of the USHJA and will thus have a voice in the direction of the organization (you may want to have a look at the flow chart on USHJA.org), and the shows will benefit from those ideas that are now being discussed, once those ideas and changes are in place.
As far as the rated shows, to show at the USEF rated shows in the hunter jumper divisions one must be a USHJA member. USHJA is working within their committees to improve all aspects of the h/j industry, from the standards of those shows (footing, organization, ammenities, ect.), to horse welfare standards, and rule changes and general organization. It's too early to see specific details, but that's the part where you and others can be helpful by involving themselves and bringing their ideas and expertise to the table.
The USHJA is also developing education opportunities such as clinics and seminars, as well as marketing plans for the hunter jumper industry. I think all of us, regardless of our show attendance, can benefit by helping fund and develop efforts in those directions.
I hope I've done some of this justice, as I'm new to a lot of it. You may want to email USHJA directly and get some of your answers from them.
I'm trying to be helpful in answering your questions, but the people that can best decide how helpful USHJA is going to be to them are those people themselves, by getting involved and helping USHJA or their local organization in conjunction with USHJA.

Snowbird

Jan. 3, 2005, 08:25 PM

Well C.Boylen I guess you've been abandoned out on the end of the branch but I might point out that what you say is very nice but it doesn't warrant an extra cost per person of $35.00 per and it doesn't warrant the loss of the half million dollars we had for less membership fees before the USHJA came along to support our Zone programs.

On my tally sheet we had everything you say before, and in addition it was cheaper and had more benefits. Now if someone can show me we were free loading and getting more than our share before I might reconsider. USHJA will have an income of about $1.5 million dollars. The USEF will save some money but what do we get for that 1.5 million dollars? A meeting once a year that we have to pay for to attend.

khobstetter

Jan. 3, 2005, 08:57 PM

Hey C Boylen...not abandoonded at all...

I had to test drive the ARK tonight to see if we can get enough horses on board since it is susposed to rain for the NEXT WEEK!!!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

I think you pretty well summed it all up. Your points are well taken and correct. IMHO the organization is off to a GREAT start and everyone involved understands it is a work in progress....and not done yet.

It would have been nice if they had more time to get ALL the kinks worked out but USEF and USOC and "others" created time lines that USHJA (or any other org that won the Affiliate status) had to jump through.

IMHO they are taking it one step at a time, with a long term committment to get to the end of it...as soon as possible. It would be nice if they had millions of dollars and could just "hire" it done..but it IS getting done...and I for one LIKE IT!!! I do not think it is perfect, and they get my opinion WAY too much. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif But I always get a reply!!

It amazes me that people think it should have all just appeared over night...

The fact of the matter is...IT DID NOT AND NOW THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE.

Please give your input and be heard!!!

weeble

Jan. 3, 2005, 10:03 PM

I have been lurking on this discussion for some time and can't restrain myself any longer.

C. Boylen - Shows "will be evaluated...and you will have a better indication of what shows are suitable for you to attend, and said shows will have an incentive to improve their facilities and conditions" Are you kidding me???????

Last I checked, the best way to find a show, unrated or otherwise that is "suitable" for a rider to attend is to go to the horse's mouth. (no pun intended) Check with your friends, barnmates and people showing at your level or in your area. They can clue you in without affiliation, membership, flow charts, etc.

As far as unrated shows improving their facilities and conditions, I think this is no different than a rated show. If you build it they will come. The showing public has never had a problem making their wants and desires known. If they don't like something a show is doing you can be darn sure someone will hear about it. Exhibitors speak with their wallets, if managers want to keep having successful shows, they will improve their facilities, conditions, as well as prize lists, awards, and any other amenities you can think of to keep those horses and riders coming. All of this without the assistance of a "parent", so to speak.

That being said, I don't believe all efforts of the USHJA are misguided and there is certainly value to having a group looking out for the Hunter/Jumper world. But I'm with Snowbird, where are the specifics, where are the details? There is a plethora of discussion about planned development, developing education opportunities, discussion of ideas, and marketing plans. This report is so lacking in concrete details and maybe with work it will be a very viable plan. But how can you pass this as a rule change without those details in place?

As riders, we are being asked to fund, through our membership, a lot of discussion and planning. In the business world where I circulate, funding is provided through details and specifics of a plan. The cart sure seems to be coming before the horse (again, no pun intended) but I will keep an open mind and see what happens.

Beezer

Jan. 3, 2005, 10:05 PM

Weebs!! Where HAVE you been? You doing OK? Not washed away??

Oops, sorry everyone. Back to the topic at hand. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

weeble

Jan. 3, 2005, 10:16 PM

Hey Beezer! Other than the fact that the National Weather Service issued small craft warnings for my swimming pool, things here are OK. I've missed you guys.

MIKES MCS

Jan. 4, 2005, 07:39 AM

Weeble, glad you chimed in.
"Shows will be evaluated...and you will have a better indication of what shows are suitable for you to attend, and said shows will have an incentive to improve their facilities and conditions" Are you kidding me???????"
Exactly! C Boylen I appreciate your answer but I still fail to see the benefit. As you say (and you are right) I should go to the USHJA with my questions, but quiet honestly I think they're still at the discussion stage and don't have any answers yet.
Again I reiterate , this thread has been going on for days now, no one is flaming anything, some very valid questions have been brought up. 3 people on this thread have attempted to explain the MISSION of The USHJA and yet cannot fully explain it even though they seem very well informed. If it's true that the USHJA wants a connection with the Real HUNTER JUMPER world, (which is a very small world, made smaller by this board )you'd think their interest would have been peaked enough to come take a look at this thread.
Yes Yes, I know some of you believe that it would start a downward spiral into a bonfire size flame fest.. But I have to remind you all that a couple months ago the COTH'rs got together in a matter of HOURS to make a difference. Because of their efforts they were able to save a race horse from slaughter. So don't tell me this board would be of no value to USHJA , this board is probably one of thee most practical and valuable references for knowledge and know how in the horse world, any Organization would be foolish not to tap into it..
I came into this discussion because quite frankly I needed to ask the questions that would clarify what questions to ask the USHJA and how to ask them.
So far my questions all pertain to Money, How much of it comes from the Hunter Jumper members and how much is distributed back to that discipline. How is it spent. On what, Where ? and how does a small Show manager who runs non rated shows attracting 100 horses or so benefit from any affiliation.
So yes I am writing a letter but I still feel it would be a huge benefit if someone acknowledged this discussion .

khobstetter

Jan. 4, 2005, 08:30 AM

HI MIKE!!!! welcome back..
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> As you say (and you are right) I should go to the USHJA with my questions, but quiet honestly I think they're still at the discussion stage and don't have any answers yet.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That may be true but YOU will never know till YOU go!!
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Again I reiterate , this thread has been going on for days now, no one is flaming anything, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
SO FAR....and arn't we lucky!! Hope it stays that way.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> 3 people on this thread have attempted to explain the MISSION of The USHJA and yet cannot fully explain it even though they seem very well informed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
We can offer our opinions and thoughts BUT we cannnot, and probably will not, "explain" it...go to the organization for answers!!!
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> If it's true that the USHJA wants a connection with the Real HUNTER JUMPER world, (which is a very small world, made smaller by this board )you'd think their interest would have been peaked enough to come take a look at this thread.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I can assure you this thread is being "peeked at"....as are several OTHER BB's and chats and so on!! I for one would rather have them spend their time continuing with clarification and specifics instead of coming on here (or there and there and there) and answering lots of conversation. People who really want to know can simply go to the organization and they can respond....
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> a race horse from slaughter <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
A race horse saved from slaughter is NOT a controversial topic NOR is it one many many people can, and will, have different opinions on, self interest perspactives, their horse shows on the line, their pocket books at stake and so on....IT WAS A HORSE IN NEED AND OF COURSE WE BANDED TOGETHER, WE ARE HORSEMEN!
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> So don't tell me this board would be of no value to USHJA <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't remember anyone saying that...
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> this board is probably one of thee most practical and valuable references for knowledge and know how in the horse world, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I AGREE!! BUT BUT BUT it also known far and wide as having train wrecks and cat fights....something I am sure they would like to avoid being a part of.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> So far my questions all pertain to Money, How much of it comes from the Hunter Jumper members and how much is distributed back to that discipline. How is it spent. On what, Where ? and how does a small Show manager who runs non rated shows attracting 100 horses or so benefit from any affiliation.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Just as YOU cannot give answers for money questions relating to my business, we cannot give answers relating to those questions for USHJA...neither can ANYONE on this BB.

Again, go to the organization...GET INVOLVED WITH YOUR INPUT..and try to be a progressive part of where we are going.

In case someone hasn't noticed...we are going "there"..this IS the Affiliate and it WILL be in charge of the Hunter/Jumper side of the USEF..

I love your questions, I find you very knowledged and smart with your questions/ideas....but if I OR "WE" attempt to give you an answer that NEEDS TO COME FROM USHJA....it would be fruitless. And indeed it would probably start "problems" since things do have a way of getting mis-construed third hand!!

AGAIN...I wait your letter with panting anticipation, I bet it will be a good one.

GO TO THE ORGANIZATION, GET INVOLVED AND LET'S "JUMP" INTO THE NEXT PART OF OUR SPORT.

You are imposrtant...you are important...I'll say it once more..YOU ARE IMPORTAN!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Get involved!!!!

khobstetter

Jan. 4, 2005, 08:39 AM

Mike..and anyone else interested..

JUST TO CLARIFY...

I, like everyone else, was involved with AHSA and USET as they pretained to what I was doing in the sport. I gave my time freely for BOTH organizations and really wanted them BOTH to survive. In different forms,,they did. I AM GLAD.

When the broohaha started about the oganizations (Affiliate) I stayed out and indeed got more involved with NHJA...but I did not have enough first hand knowledge to "fight" for one or the other.

At the USEF Convention last January in LA, I was the lone person who stood up at 3 meetings and PLEADED with all of them to work together and stop the division. Wilson Dennehy stood up and said he would resign from all committees and the Board of USHJA if it would assist in working together. He asked others to do the same.

BOTH BOTH BOTH Gary and BIll did not want to bend enough for that to happen....AND SO WE HAVE THE USHJA CHOSEN TO BE OUR AFFILIATE.

I, for one, decided NOT to go forward blindly since this is my career, my sport, my passion and my hobby!!

So I got involved...and I am glad I did......I will ask that you guys do to....

USHJA is the Affiliate and we can all make a difference....IF WE GET INVOLVED!!

weeble

Jan. 4, 2005, 09:09 AM

You know, Khobstetter, you're right, I am important, we all are, and we all were long before this task force report came out with suggestions for licenses and the rules that go with them (and may I add the ways they can be taken away) but with no cost to the managers spelled out. And we were all important to the industry before the task force report spent pages saying virtually nothing in the way of specifics about huge changes they are proposing.

Though I am involved in the rated show world as well as having some interest in unrated shows, I can tell you that those that attend the unrated shows, the "grassroots" that so much lip service has been paid to, have known how important they are all along.

I agree with you that the USHJA is our affiliate and we all need to be involved. I am involved. I am sharing my opinions on this board, I am speaking to those I know in the horse industry and encouraging them in be informed about what changes are happening and how it affects them. I will not, however, back policies I don't agree with (at least in their present form) and call it involvement. JMHO

Snowbird

Jan. 4, 2005, 10:26 AM

Well Kathy and C.Boylen I can appreciate your enthusiasm for USHJA and it is normal for people who agree with each other to associate themselves. But I was taught at an early age by someone you all know Frank Chapot that if it isn't in writing then it isn't so.

But, there are hard facts that have not been answered and it's been over a year. I would want to know WHO is going to Evaluate a Show and what is their criteria. This Show Evaluation is critical because the very support of a horse farm can crumble. The Task Force Report does not say that they have the criteria but the Official Affiliate which is USHJA can Endorse unrecognized shows and can establish the Level of Competition which I assume means the points that can be earned at a show.

I think that much power and that much authority requires a specific definable and measureable set of terms and conditions we can all understand.

If they give a Level Four to an unrecognized show division does that mean the USEF Rule Book is still optional as the guide for competition? Does that mean there are Licensed Officials and classes meet the required specifications for that Level of Competition. As a competitor are they guaranteed competent Medical Staff and Insurance at an unrecognized but "Endorsed" horse show.

Where is this in writing on the USHJA Web Site or where is this written in your membership agreement? If it is a Level 4 Show but unrecognized will that meet the standards to qualify for NAL or WIHS Classes and Divisions and will that qualify you for Finals? If so how do we know that the Junior Hunters are not at 3'0" that are earning points?

How can anyone expect any logical business person to sign a contract for a License when they don't know what it will cost them, and if they did the price can be changed at any time during the Term of the Contract. Will this Licensed show then still be in competition with and unrecognized show that can offer the same classes and divisions that are Rated by USEF or USHJA? How do the mileage definitions apply the "Endorsed" shows?

These are not piddly little questions. These must have been discussed at the Convention. The Board at the USHJA Convention must have approved some format. It's been more than a year since they decided to organize. It's been more than a month since the Meeting in Tucson and yet there is nothing on the Web Site about Rule Changes that they approve or disapprove.

Show standards that were adopted or rejected by the Convention. There is just no information at all any more than we knew a year ago with lots of pretty words and promises.

The President of USHJA is on the Task Force so he had to know what they would recommend. I also wonder why a Member of Staff is the contact instead of the 6 Members of the USEF that were on the Task Force. I assume they are all Members in good standing of the USEF. Employees are not Members of the Federation and therefore should not be proposing Rule Changes or being the Contact.

I think that it is more than fair for reasonable people who have serious questions to ask them and expect an answer back from someone who knows the real answers.

Kathy you say you know they are reading this BB then why not jump in and give us answers to obvious questions? What possible reason is there to ignore the questions.

We as Show Managers have to apply for our License for 2006 in just a little more than 90 days or at the most 120 days if we do not have early shows. What do we do? Apply with a blank check aand we don;t know what rating we might have and we don;t know what the terms and conditions are but here's my bank account.

USHJA is our Affiliate and has the power of life and death over our family farms. Why do you feel it's too much to expect simple answers to simple questions. They know the law requires "definable and measurable" terms and conditions, they have said so. SO where are they and when will we find out and how much will it cost for how long for what "terms and conditions".

Is the USHJA "Endorsement" tantamount to sanctioning a show? If so what does it cost? What are the terms and conditions so that any show can be evaluated and by whom?

PineTreeFarm

Jan. 4, 2005, 10:32 AM

Just my opinion but I think part of the reason this is such an issue is the lack of concrete detail in the proposal. A task force for mileage morphed into something entirely different.

C. Boylan did a great job of summarizing the positive things that can happen as a result of the task force and USHJA.

But there are certainly other possible outcomes.

One scenario is the existing B , C and local shows won't be able to meet the standards. That failure could be in footing, facilities or inability to be in electronic communication with the USEF. In one place in the proposal sponsorship and media are mentioned as criteria for competition evaluation. What are they looking for in 'Sponsorship and media'??? . Would a small show want to invest large sums of money into a facility if they don't know how long their license will last? Especially a show facility that might be leased?

So those shows would become part of the 'Affinity' classification. Do points at an Affinity show count for zones? Probably not, but due to lack of detail I'm just guessing. So the 'grassroots' now have to operate outside the umbrella of a 'licensed' competition. And the larger existing A and AA shows become the only 'licensed' competitions. Maybe some of the Affinity shows won't even join.

What happens to the currently rated 'C' divisions for Childrens and Adult Hunters? What category of show will they be offered at?

And C. Boylan is right, there will a need for the 'licensed' shows to continue to upgrade to keep those online facility ratings high.

Under the scenario I'm discussing the Affinity shows would start their own awards program, maybe something to take the place of zone finals. And yes, this is already happening as other groups startup to support the grassroots.

Wouldn't it make more sense to develop the details before the task force proposal and the associated rule changes get implemented??. Would another year make a difference?

lauriep

Jan. 4, 2005, 01:16 PM

Re: only the elite getting asked to serve on a committee - ah, no. They asked me, and I have been out of the sport for 20 years and am only recently "back", and only as a spectator. Certainly no one with any "power," so put that theory to rest. I mentioned, in passing during another conversation over a year ago, to Bill Moroney, that I would like to help in some way. He remembered and then asked me.

pwynnnorman

Jan. 4, 2005, 01:53 PM

Sorry, Lauriep, but I have to disagree. And with C Boylen's statement, too:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> And, if you truly believe that no one else can think in your terms then you need to bring your terms to them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've indicated my interest to serve on breeders or marketing committees (to those with email addresses who are/were on the commitees) and have not even gotten the courtesy of a reply. I HAVE in fact come to believe that 1.) as a little gal with lots of ideas, but no $$$, they couldn't care less; 2.) because it is an (interestingly enough--coincidentally, but not meant to be disparaging) fact that you and C.Boylen frequently agree while the two of you and I fairly consistently DISagree, that there ARE certain perspectives they do NOT want to hear from, and 3.) I know there's nothing wrong with my email since some folks HAVE always given me the courtesy of a response--and curiously enough, those folks have consistently been the executives and staff--NOT commitee chairs or members.

Lastly, and this is something that, quite frankly, makes me boil each time I write it--mainly because I've been saying it for YEARS now--it is a fact, fact, WELL-KNOWN fact that if you want volunteers and participants, you must invite them, NOT "expect" them. How many times have I written this?! How many times have I wondered out loud why the committees can't simply use Equestrian to announce their specific needs and agendas? How many times have I, Snowbird and our ilk harped on about the need for a newsletter with committee reports and requests?

Would someone tell me why it is so hard to put online sufficient information about who is doing what so that those who care can make INFORMED decisions instead of carrying around a load of inevitably inaccurate impressions based on hearsay and innuendo? Lord have mercy, we're talking about nothing more than professionalism and COURTESY!

lauriep

Jan. 4, 2005, 02:41 PM

Oh, geez, I highly doubt that the "inviters" were perusing this BB and noticed that Chanda and I frequently agree (we also frequently disagree, but have mutual respect for one another so it is a non-issue). What we DO share is an exposure to all levels of showing, from AA to local, and VERY different backgrounds/perspectives on that. Do you really think that Chanda, an upper level exhibitor, really has the same background as I, a groom/stable manager who hasn't shown a horse since 1975?

We also are capable of intelligent discussion with all levels about existing problems, without having to go the "woe is me, I'm so unimportant" route. I'm sorry no one responded to you; that is simply very bad manners, but it happens in all walks of life.

And the workd "volunteer" means "A person who performs or offers to perform a service voluntarily." Nowhere is it mentioned that one must be called FIRST to volunteer.

Snowbird

Jan. 4, 2005, 02:47 PM

Lauriep didn't read somewhere congratulations to you about your new job working for Mason Phelps? For sure in any case you are politcally correct. It is understandable the people prefer to surround themselves with those who agree.

I don't think Wynn is invisible nor am I, yet I know of several others invited for their opinions. Personally, I have a philosophy which requires that I be friends with whom I disagree. It's the only way for me to learn where I am wrong and fix it or have a meaningful debate.

Snowbird

Jan. 4, 2005, 02:55 PM

Our posts must have crossed in passing.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>We also are capable of intelligent discussion with all levels about existing problems, without having to go the "woe is me, I'm so unimportant" route. I'm sorry no one responded to you; that is simply very bad manners, but it happens in all walks of life. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now Lauriep you are a very bright lady so you have to understand the way that sounds to us commoners not capable of intelligent discussion at all levels. We should just expect bad manners because it happens all the time, is the the idea?

You're right "Woe is me" I am only wanted for my money and then I don't have any so this is such a sad world. "Woe is me" I really must learn how to be more respectful of my betters. Yes! Mam! I get the message I'll be better behaved Missy I promise. I know you'd help if you could.

"Open the Doors and Free the poor people from the Bastille"

lauriep

Jan. 4, 2005, 02:57 PM

Uh, no, you didn't read that. Try again.

I am still not getting where you think they would have gotten the idea that I agreed with them?! Did I support the USHJA in its bid for affiliate? Yes, I did, but not overtly. And for reasons unrelated to my views on other things.

I repeat, I am a virtual unknown, except among my very old friends, none of whom have any of the selection ability for the USHJA. I met Bill Moroney on year ago and have spoken with him exactly three times.

Perhaps they looked at my credentials, or talked to those that do know me, and said "Gee, she knows her stuff and seems to be a reasoned, articulate person who might offer an interesting view on the Horse Welfare Committee. Let's see if she is interested in serving."

Now, if for some reason they don't think that of you, I'm sorry, I can't help you.

lauriep

Jan. 4, 2005, 02:59 PM

SNOWBIRD! Would you read and understand one word I wrote??? I am NOT wealthy, have NO position in the current horse world except as a good friend to those few that are still around after my ABSENCE OF 20 years, and am still trying to get current on what I missed.

You are CONSTANTLY beating the "I am so poor, I am the lowest level, I am the lone grassroots" drum, so if that is how you are now identified, it is your own fault. You have demonstrated nothing but negativity in the 3-4 years I have been posting here. You are, and have been, unwilling to give either new organization a chance to get their ducks in a row and get all the information out there for your consumption, so you can bitch about it. So, perhaps they are guilty of being slow, but I personally don't attach the maliciousness to it that you seem to. You always perceive some sort of exclusionism that just isn't there!

Perhaps they are merely looking for people with a POSITIVE outlook!

Snowbird

Jan. 4, 2005, 03:06 PM

Laurie don't your understand can't you feel our pain? It's not about you! I wouldn't care if you were as rich as Doris Duke and had won every HOTY Award for 30 years.

P.Wynn is simply articulating a point of view and the way it looks when you're looking up and feel disrespected. I personally don't give a twit! I know the route and could afford to play the game. I find it very veird to be in the position I am because I choose to do what I do. I don't blame anyone and the sky is not falling down.

Snowbird

Jan. 4, 2005, 03:44 PM

And a positive outlook means what?

To accept blindly irrational and illogical ideas poorly conceived and prematurely put forward without full consideration of due process and the results.

wtywmn4

Jan. 4, 2005, 04:22 PM

Okay late to the party and will probably pay for it..Snowbird, you know that I sometimes agree with you and sometimes not. But this constant bashing between posters is old, really really old. So you get each others dander up, so what. How the heck can any of us read whats being posted when this constant thrashing is going on. Its like one upmanship. Who's gonna have the last word. Lauriep may be on the horse welfare committee, I think that's great. Now we have someone we can ask concerning our questions. Get feed back, something which all of us want, including you. You sound mad that you aren't on any of the committees, but yet you have been or maybe even are? Now there's another new association starting up. Good grief, we are over loaded with these.

And please, I am not taking sides. Let's not go there. Thought this was about the date allocation reform which is in the rebirthing stage. When we yell about the grass roots people, maybe we need them to tell us or post how they really feel. Many I have personally talked with want nothing, and I mean nothing, to do with any of these organizations. They are happy with their shows, year ends, etc. So, in a nutshell, how do you tend to lure these people? We currently don't have alot to offer them.

Snowbird

Jan. 4, 2005, 05:18 PM

OK! When you're right I can admit it and I apologize for my part in it. I do however, think P.Wynn was justified and has a right to her opinion without being treated badly.

I do agree however that when we allow being petty get into it then we lose our forward motion as badly as if we were looking down at a fence. I must confess every so often the teen-ager in my pops back and upmanship seems like fun. So to all of you so inflicted by me I'm sorry please consider it a senior moment.

T agree totally that most of the unrecognized are perfectly happy and their clients are not trying to qualify for anything so why should they bother. What is hurtful is that those of us who have carried the torch and believe in the Federation and have supported it financially and with our hard work feel as if we're being shafted. I've spent 3/4 years cultivating interest in the NAL and WIHS for a goal, I have been enthusiastic about the Zone Program and the Zone Horse Shows since their inception. I feel that the Federation and our Affiliate doesn't care and would just as soon we all were unrecognized.

I can survive without the mileage rule, but can the AA shows? TS has said he can't afford to lose 10% of his market share without being in trouble financially. Are they going to bite the bullet too, or is it just the rest of us?

MIKES MCS

Jan. 5, 2005, 07:06 AM

Lauriep, Wonderful, Your are a USHJA committee memember, thank you for picking up the thread. Since your area is horse welfare, Please tell us what your committee does, How much funding is allocated to it, how is is spent, what are the goals of this committee,How you will make a difference ect..Thank you again for coming here.

wtywmn4

Jan. 5, 2005, 07:06 AM

Maybe it's time we stopped trying to sell the organizations, and let them sell themselves. We all have stood up for the ones which have gone before. I think the new ones need to prove their worth. We all have tried to show the positive points for each, well, they need to step up to the plate. Doing is proving.

Have to say, can't believe that for TS 10% lose would be such a financial burden. Thats really incredible. Usually for many businesses, thats considered a throw away.

lauriep

Jan. 5, 2005, 08:36 AM

Mike, we had one teleconference just before the holidays, and basically just laid out some broad goals and began discussion on what other committees we would be working closely with. We elected a chairman, vice chair and are working on developing a code of conduct. I, personally, am going to head a subcommittee, probably to be called Competition Horse Management, and we will work with judges, stewards, and trainers to develop standards of care that must be followed on showgrounds (obvious things like water, hay, watching overwork, etc.) We may also look at some educational clinic to address proper stable management and horse care. We are nowhere near ready to begin to ask for funding, but that will come. Our next meeting will be towards the end of January and I will be happy to report back after it.

MIKES MCS

Jan. 5, 2005, 10:15 AM

Thank You again, I have a good understanding now what your committee will be trying to do. May I ask if ability to fine and or remove a trainer for abuse will be on your January agenda? Would you be addressing excessive whipping such as the Race horse industry has. Will you be able to address removal of a lame horse from competition and address Vets certificates of soundness in order to show or return to the show ring such as the endurance competitions now use? Can you implement an eyewitness rule for cases of abuse and or neglect or would a steward have to witness such behavior in order to address abuse? How will you address inforcement of any Horse Welfare rules and who would be the responible party. Would "Rated Shows be required to have a Horse welfare advocate on the grounds? Would monies from the USEF / USHJA be available to fund such a program? Please note: I am not asking for answers to these questions , only asking if these are some of the questions that will be addressed at your January meeting and if suggestion for topics can be submitted to you? If you can serve as a condiuit (sp) for the general horse public in these areas then at least we would Know how 1 of the departments were operating and that there would be open communication available to us.

hullaballoo

Jan. 5, 2005, 11:06 AM

Bravo, MIKES!!! I'd love to have those questions answered, or at least know if they'll be touched on in the Jan. meeting.

lauriep

Jan. 5, 2005, 11:22 AM

I will print out your questions and have them with me when we meet this month. The issue of enforcement came up at the last meeting, and it seems USEF will still have to wield any punishment. But will we have input? Yes, I believe we will. I will address as many of them as I can fit into our other business, but it may take a couple of meetings to get to all of them, so be patient. There are 14 members on this committee, from a variety of backgrounds, and so I will obviously have to defer to their questions/concerns, too. And, since there is a wide open debate as to what constitutes "abuse" or "excessive whipping," I imagine these issues will take a while to iron out.

Please note, also, that the USHJA website is being redone, with a goal of early February (?) I think, for going live. It will list the committees, contact info (I think), and minutes of meetings, or information about, what the organization has been doing. As I find out more about it, I'll let you know.

Janet

Jan. 5, 2005, 11:29 AM

Being on committees

I have several times volunteered to be on committees when I had a strong opinion. And always been ignored.

But I have just been asked to CHAIR a committee where my only opinion is "this area has been ignored, and we need to revitalize it." Without any real preconceptions about HOW to revitalize it (but I do have some ideas).

Just one data point.

MIKES MCS

Jan. 5, 2005, 11:35 AM

Lauriep, Thank you sooooo much, It seems at least through you we do have a voice on a very important issue. On the question of excessive whipping, and placement The presedant was set many years ago by the Jocky club and the USTA. They do have Rules and perhaps the USEF and USHJA would like to view them. I will look up the specific rules and post them here for you asap. Least this way you have some info to back you up. Thanks again.

Janet

Jan. 5, 2005, 11:40 AM

Actually, the USEF DOES have rules on excessive whipping. See EV110
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> EV110 Abuse of Horses
1. ABUSE. Any act or series of actions that, in the opinion of the Ground Jury or in its
absence the Technical Delegate can clearly and without doubt be defined as abuse of
horses shall be penalized by disqualification. Such acts include, but are not limited to:
* Riding an exhausted horse.
* Excessive pressing of a tired horse.
* Excessive use of whip and/or spurs, and/or bit.
* Riding an obviously lame horse.
2. RAPPING. As an exception to the General Rules of GR806, all rapping (poling) is for-bidden
in Eventing Competitions, and shall be penalized by disqualification.
3. WHIP. The use of the whip must be for a good reason, at an appropriate time, in the
right place, and with appropriate severity.
a. Reason—the whip must only be used either as an aid to encourage the horse for-ward,
or as a reprimand. It must never be used to vent a rider’s temper. Such use is
always excessive.
b. Time—As an aid, the only appropriate time is when a horse is reluctant to go for-ward
under normal aids of the seat and legs. As a reprimand, the only appropriate time
is immediately after a horse has been disobedient, e.g. napping or refusing. The whip
should not be used after elimination. The whip should not be used after a horse has
jumped the last fence on a course.
c. Place—As an aid to go forward, the whip may be used down the shoulder or behind
the rider’s leg. As a reprimand, it must only be used behind the rider’s leg. It must
never be used overhand, e.g. a whip in the right hand being used on the left flank. The
use of a whip on a horse’s head, neck, etc., is always excessive use.
d. Severity—As a reprimand only, a horse may be hit hard. However, it should never
be hit more than three times for any one incident. If a horse is marked by the whip, e.g.
the skin is broken, its use is excessive.
4. SPURS—Spurs must not be used to reprimand a horse. Such use is always excessive,
as is any use that results in a horse’s skin being broken.
5. BIT—The bit must never be used to reprimand a horse. Any such use is always exces-sive.
6. REPORTING—Officials must report such actions as soon as possible to the Ground
Jury, supported where possible by statements from witnesses.
7. GROUND JURY—If such actions are reported, the Ground Jury shall decide if there is
a case to be answered. If an individual member of the Ground Jury observes such actions,
he is obliged to disqualify the competitor forthwith on his own authority. There is no appeal
against a Ground Jury’s decision in a case of abuse. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It would probably need SOME modification for other disciplines, but the starting point is there.

Snowbird

Jan. 5, 2005, 11:43 AM

Janet you made me smile. I had applied to be on the Equine Commission which having to do with agriculture and horse sports I felt I could be useful. Instead they appointed a Race Track Veterinarian to that slot and then I was appointed to the Sire Stakes Commission.

Well that was Racing which I know nothing about, and worse it was harness racing which I know even less about so I was obviously the perfect choice for the Governor.

Anyway, the point is I did learn there is little difference between horse people. We proposed a plan for horses that were just too slow to win at the Pari-mutuals because you cannot support an industry on 2 dozen winners. And then were besieged by the horses that always win saying that they were being decriminated against because their excellence.

Now, doesn't that sound an awful lot like the same debate here except reversed.

Snowbird

Jan. 5, 2005, 12:03 PM

usAHSA Forum Polling (http://www.horse-shows.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=6)

I have just got the polling going on the usAHSA Forums. Test drive for me so I can see if it works please.

lauriep

Jan. 5, 2005, 12:21 PM

Thanks, Janet, I knew some work had been done, but I didn't have time to look it up. I believe the FEI has very strict rules (no more than three strikes, behind the rider's leg?) about whipping, also. Again, I am in the middle of something else, so can't look it up right now, but that sounds right...

MIKES MCS

Jan. 5, 2005, 12:30 PM

Lauriep, Just another Excessive whipping rule for your folder ( you should be well armed with info for this meeting)
Copied From the 159 page USTA Rule Book ( United States Trotting Assco.) Page 56-57

"§ 9. Drivers will be allowed whips not to exceed 3 feet, 9 inches, plus a
snapper not longer than 6 inches. Provided further that the following actions
shall be considered as excessive or indiscriminate use of the whip:
a. Causing visible injury.
b. Whipping a horse after a race.
c. Whipping under the arch or shafts of the sulky.
The use of the whip shall be confined to an area above and between the
sulky shafts, to include the sulky shafts and the outside wheel discs. Drivers
shall keep a line in each hand from the start of the race until the head of the
stretch finishing the race.
At extended pari-mutuel meetings, under the supervision of the judges,
there shall be a mandatory visual inspection of each horse following each
race for evidence of excessive or brutal use of the whip. At all other meetings,
the judges shall have the authority to order and/or conduct such visual inspections
at their discretion.
§ 10. The use of any goading device, chain, or mechanical devices or
appliances, other than the ordinary whip or crop upon any horse in any race
shall constitute a violation of this rule.
§ 11. The brutal use of a whip or crop or excessive or indiscriminate use
of the whip or crop shall be considered a violation and shall be punished by
a fine and/or suspension. The mandatory minimum penalty for a whipping
violation shall be a fine in the amount of $100.00 and a 3 day suspension
from driving for the first offense, and for each subsequent violation the
mandatory minimum penalty shall increase in the amount of $100.00 and 3
days (e.g. $200.00 and 6 days for the 2nd offense, $300.00 and 9 days for the
3rd offense, etc.)"

I will get you the Jocky Club Rule too. Now I know these rules are in the book For Horse shows as Janet posted, but the fact is that these rules are rarely enforced because of the vagness of what constitutes abuse or excessive. And it seems that instances of abuse can only be considered if an official sees them. In the USTA rulebook any eye witness can file a report and that report must be followed up on with a written conclusion. In otherowrds it cannot be brushed off because a steward didn't see it.

Janet

Jan. 5, 2005, 12:51 PM

I don't know about enforcement. But at the last event I was at, 4 riders were "spoken to" (and goven an informal warning) about it.

lauriep

Jan. 5, 2005, 12:54 PM

Mike, I think the "official having to witness it" is the problem with enforcement, but to go to simply eye witnesses is a slippery slope also, as we all know that there are some that will stoop to "witnessing" something they really didn't, or embellishing what really happened.

But I will have your rules with me when we get to discussion of this subject. It will add needed perspective.

pwynnnorman

Jan. 5, 2005, 01:14 PM

Lauriep, I try not to get personal--hence I was referring NOT to your station in life (how would I know anything about that?), but your perspectives, which some might say are quite in line with the establishment. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with your ideas, but the point I'm making is that lip service is given to "fresh ideas," but the trach record for appointments shows that those who get asked are those whose views are generally in line with what's already well represented. That's not fresh blood.

Moreover, again, speaking professionally, not personally, as someone who has worked and taught in the field, there are well-known ways to obtain and retain volunteers. The fact that you must invite not expect is a non-profit industry-wide concept among PROS. I remain very critical about all the years that point has been made by various people, including myself, but never heeded by any committee. I'm sorry, but that--and the way they do not reply when one inquirers (and I haven't even specifically asked for anything, except expressingf my interest on those two particular committees)--smacks of at least SOME individuals desires to control committe outcomes by controlling the views that get expressed on them.

Who can deny that committe selection AND operations remain shrouded in mystery? MIKE's questions, for example, should not even have to be asked if communication procedures and organs were created to keep members informed DURING deliberations. It does sadden me that even under the "new" administration, that still is not very high on any priorities list.

USHJA needs a newsletter NOW, while it is working things out IF IF IF "they" really do want members input. From my perspective, that's a "Well, duh!" kind of thing.

Janet

Jan. 5, 2005, 02:09 PM

In the eventing case, I think "official" includes jump judges, starters/timers, warm up stewards, etc.

Since you are only allowed to jump the provided warm up fences, while the warm up steward is there, it is highly likely that anything untoward will be observed by an official.

lauriep

Jan. 5, 2005, 02:20 PM

I'm sorry, pwynn, but I do not agree with you, so we must agree to disagree.

As far as knowing every word of every discussion, that is not the way to run efficiently. To do things efficiently, you get a small group of knowledgeable people in place, with different backgrounds, perspectives and interests. You ask them to prepare some recommendations, drafts, even actual rule changes. You let a small number of people do the legwork and THEN you put it out there for comments/additions/corrections. If you try to let the entire membership be a part of every preliminary discussion, you will never get anywhere. That is why there are committees in the first place. I have belonged to many organizations as large, and larger, than USEF/USHJA, and I have never had a problem with this procedure, nor have I felt excluded/ignored. If I had a suggestion, I made it when the time was appropriate. Sometimes the powers that be listened, sometimes they didn't. But I certainly didn't feel disenfranchised, and I understand why I wasn't included earlier in the process.

Not everyone can be on the committee they would like to be. There are a limited number of spots on a small number of committees. I don't see how you then make the jump to "they don't want to hear what I have to say because I disagree with them."

And you have no idea where I stand on most things, or any idea of what I intend to bring to my service on this committee, personally or professionally.

Janet

Jan. 5, 2005, 02:25 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>USHJA needs a newsletter NOW, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Are you volunteering?

pwynnnorman

Jan. 5, 2005, 05:48 PM

Actually, Janet, I think that's something someone should gedt paid to do. IMO, it's a very appropriate use of a small % of member fees--not an uncommon thing in better funded NPOs.

Lauriep, I do know how you stand on some things because you've stated your views frequently. Howver, I hardly said I knew everything and while I will say "yes, agsin, we must agree to disagree," I do wish you would STOP GENERALIZING AND OVERGENERALIZING when describing what I (and others) state. It is a MOST annoying habit and also a glaring, logical fallacy that actually detracts from the strength of your own arguments even more than your opponent's.

wtywmn4

Jan. 5, 2005, 06:19 PM

AHEM!!!! Enough of this thrashing, hashing and bashing!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif I would like to see us get back on subject. Agree to disagree. Many of us do that.

Unfortunately, many of the zones don't seem to have enough funding to do a news letter properly. So getting paid for it would not be likely..

Snowbird

Jan. 5, 2005, 07:00 PM

Well now wtywmn4 so then who does benefit from a mandatory $55 a year per? At least with NHJC we got financial reports and budgets at least after awhile. The Zones were funded to the tune of almost half a million and if the money hadn't been wasted they could have afforded to pay for Newsletters as well as Zone Horse Shows.

But exactly what do we get for doubling the Discipline fee? You see that's the crux of it, why should those with least donate the most and the ones with the most benefit altogether? That makes it really hard to get free volunteers don't you think? I didn't hear Lauriep mention line item financial reports on the web site. Will they be there in February too? Do we know what they've spent the money on they collected so far except a very posh Annual Meeting.

What I can't figure out is why the most successful among us get to go to these meetings for free but the rest of us pay our own way and are not treated nearly as well. And, my Momma taught me that if you were there for free it was to make sure the paying people felt needed and important. Boy! Times have sure changed.

I guess it's like the blue ribbon which gets all the points all the money and all the prestige while the losers pay the bills. By the way Lauriep I'm entitled to play the age card I don't know of anyone older than me that still attends the meetings. And the poor card because I didn't get rich from the sport, didn't expect to and I'm happy as a pig in you what. I was lucky I had a good man to pay my way so I could pleasure myself.

MIKES MCS

Jan. 6, 2005, 07:49 AM

Why does a news letter have to COST? Why can't it be self sustaining? I have wrote for a few Organizations which produced full size monthly newspapers reporting on every thing from results to submitted articles and pictures plus financial reports ect.. These news letters and Magazines did not cost their Org's anything. They sold advertising . While the editor was the only one paid, if any excess funds existed I was paid for articles, They had only 1 paid person on staff and again that salary came from the ads that were sold. Very small ads 10-25 $, business card ads.. Ect. However we already have many publications devoted to the Hunter Jumper World. Couldn‘t an arrangement be made with some of them to publish financial reports from the Affiliates. I mean what the heck is the “ Equestrian “ Magazine anyway . If its not to keep it‘s members informed on the issues pertaining to the Affiliates .

wtywmn4

Jan. 6, 2005, 07:55 AM

Well, since I belong to many, and I do mean many organizations Snowbird, this is just one more $$$'s spent. The rest are no better to my mind. The only one that I have found to be really forth coming, is the AQHA. Plus their fees are small comparatively. No one gives out financial data unless proded (sp?). Some not even then. It doesn't matter whether they are local or national. Some are better than others. Some less. If we as h/j folk want something better, than possibly with your new usAHSA org. since I believe you said it will act as a lobbying org.? Might be able to do this thru them. But with lobbying org. we have to send people to the hill, and who are they? Would we elect people to represent our lobbying needs? And lobbying for anything within the gov't confines costs. So, will we spend more again? Sorry for all the questions...

Oh Mike, just saw your post. Thats a wonderful idea with selling advertising to sustain the newsletter. I am passing that along to my zone committee. This would make it self sustaining. Thank you!!

MIKES MCS

Jan. 6, 2005, 09:57 AM

Well wtymm if you like that idea, I have another brainstorm. I believe their are at least 3 posters who are committee members on this thread. The meeting is towards the end of January. All of you committee members have said there isn't enough time for every idea and everyone to be heard. How about a thread entitled " A COMMUNITY LETTER, DEAR USHJA, we the collective H/J community have a couple suggestions / ideas for you. "
Lets give it 5 days for input, edit it down to one letter and ask that one of the committee members present it at the meeting. I think since theirs committee members on this board one of you might be willing to initiate this thread..

khobstetter

Jan. 6, 2005, 12:24 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> All of you committee members have said there isn't enough time for every idea and everyone to be heard. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Mike...I have never said that...I have said, REPEATEDLY, to get involved, attend the meetings, stand up and speak, write letters/emails/ make phone calls..

I have said that we can each and every one of us make a difference...if we get active as an individual.

PineTreeFarm

Jan. 6, 2005, 12:57 PM

LaurieP
Can you tell us who else is on the Horse Welfare Committee? In particular the Chair and Vice Chair.

Snowbird

Jan. 6, 2005, 01:18 PM

Well wtywmn4 if I said differently I apologize but I thought I said that NHJA was the lobbying group. They take surveys of opinions on questions and issues and act as an intermediary for those members who may not attend USEF meetings.

As to lobbying in Washington that has been a personal mission of mine with the aid of the NJ Horse Council and the NFIB of which I am a Member of their New Jersey Leadership Council.
I made my last journey to Washington prior to the merger with the conviction that many of these issues should have been dealt with prior to the merger. I am certain that by March Senator John McCain will be most interested in a progress report.

As to the usAHSA it has a simple purpose:
"Let's go on and build a wonderful association and enjoy horse showing again". It would act much more like an ombudsman than as a lobbyist. It can function very nicely within the system to arbitrate between the three partners of the sport; show management, professionals and amateurs. I would hope it will be an information service that can help competitors and management to create a friendly evironment that welcomes people rather than to punish them for violating rules they don't even know exist. It can function as a Better Business Bureau that can arbitrate wrongs and get them peacefully solved.

By nourishing the grassroots the whole project will be healthier and happier. And, this does not take anything away from those who want to play in the gold plated sandbox.

And, Kathy you can't have it both ways. You can't expect people to volunteer their efforts and services and then say well we just didn't have time at the meeting because there was too much else to do. You have made both statements.

As far as the Zones are concerned I think someone better check and see if they now need to be independently incorporated since they are being phased out by the USHJA. I think there could be a problem with trying to raise money to support their own programs as to personal liability if they are not incorporated. I have heard nothing about USHJA planning to continue their programs and at the Board Meeting in July the President elect, Mr. Moroney said clearly that he thought they had never worked and were therefore a useless effort.