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View Full Version : Oldenburgs? Holsteiners? Give me the good, bad and the ugly.



JenL
Oct. 6, 2011, 03:17 PM
To make a long story short, I am planning on getting back into riding again. However this time, I really want to explore dressage. Before I went to college I primarily evented, but the technical and demanding side of dressage has always intrigued me. I am planning on getting a horse within the next year or two that I can train and grow with (and no I don't want this to devolve into a discussion of the merits of learning on a schoolmaster versus greenie), that if I so choose, I could also play around with in jumpers or eventing. Let me also say, up till now all I have ever owned and trained is TBs.

I have recently begun exploring WB breeds and so far I like the Oldenburgs and Holsteiners, mainly for what seems their versatility and athleticism. I'd love people's personal experiences with them in dressage or otherwise as it may be, as far as temperament, riding, etc.

Asking for your two cents please!
(I might add I searched and did not find much but maybe I should have gone through all 10+ pages first)

FlashGordon
Oct. 6, 2011, 03:25 PM
Well, my vote is to drive over to the FL track and pick something out.... ;) Especially this time of year, within the next month you could probably get a seriously great deal...

GoingUp...POP!
Oct. 6, 2011, 03:27 PM
Holsteiner any day. They have way better resale value, and the Holsteiner inspections are tough and regulations are strict, whereas the Oldies have begun to let a lot of less than spectacular horses in their registry. It is tough to be a Hosteiner, but it is pretty easy to be an Oldenburg. Plus the temperments of most Holsteiners is pretty good! I've seen some hotties, but most are darling... I've had less thrilling experiences with Oldies, but heck was it an Oldie or KWPN reject or a TB or all three? They are all so different because so many breeds are in there.

TickleFight
Oct. 6, 2011, 03:35 PM
I can't speak for Oldies (I've only sat on one or two), but I have enjoyed all the Holsteiners I've ridden.

oldenmare
Oct. 6, 2011, 03:48 PM
Frankly, I think it is less about registry and more about pedigree.

There are certain lines for each that produce horses that are better prospects for dressage or h/j or eventing. Go to see horses you like - then do the research into their background.

I love my Oldenburg mare, but have moved into the Dutch rather by default lately. I also adore my TBs for their athleticism and all around attributes. That said - my TBs are "old" bloodlines, with substance and brains. Which is why I feel it is less about what they are and more about who they are.

FWIW.

Alianna
Oct. 6, 2011, 03:54 PM
Oldenburgs are more of a "type" rather than a breed. You have to look at the actual papers and see what breed they actually are. You can have an Oldenburg that is nearly 100% TB or one that is full Hanoverian, Holsteiner, etc. So, as far as Oldenburg, look at the actual breeding to see what you are actually getting. I have seen nice horses from both registries....I think you just need to look at individuals.

As for me, I do eventing and dressage on the same horses and have found that I like a Hanoverian/Trakehner cross. The Hanoverian seems to give brain and a nice solid body, while the Trakehner adds the spirit and endurance needed to event. My two crosses are reg. Oldenburgs.

TrotTrotPumpkn
Oct. 6, 2011, 04:04 PM
Holsteiners are predominantly bred for show jumping ability. That said, there are some very nice dressage producing holsteiners. There are two Oldenburg studbooks. Oldenburg GOV (German Oldenburg Verband) and the US studbook. I think it is important to make that distinction, because they don't necessarily approve the same stock for breeding or have the same criteria.

With any warmblood it is going to come down to the bloodlines before the studbook, imo. The studbooks are registries based on a location, such as the Holstein region in Germany, for example. There are Holsteiner stallions that are known for throwing dressage and some that are not and vice versa with Oldenburgs, KWPN, Hanoverians, etc.

I think you set your parameters (i.e. sex, age, training level) and then go look for individuals who meet them and if it happens to be a certain registry, then great.

Good luck shopping. :)

Petstorejunkie
Oct. 6, 2011, 04:08 PM
I'll throw another into the mix for you. I usually don't like riding WB's because they don't read my mind like a TB does,... until my latest training/resale project. He's a Selles Francais/Oldenburg. You think it, he does it. So nice and light and responsive and sensitive but sane and level headed. His owner says that all the selles francais he's known are that way... this is my first experience with one under saddle and so far he's opened my eyes to what WB's can be.

LittleblackMorgan
Oct. 6, 2011, 04:10 PM
I have an Oldenburg I dabble in dressage with. I bought her to do eventing with and haven't made it that far.

She's very smart. Very very smart. Also flighty, but has a good work ethic overall. Beefy but refined.

I have not jumped her but have seen her jumped. Very scopey. She isn't very fast-she'd never make in the jumpers. But she's got movement to die for.

She's Oldenburg NA. Looking at her papers and lines, she's actually a Hanoverian. Weltmeyer and Werbellin lines.

JenL
Oct. 6, 2011, 04:36 PM
I love my TBS, I just think it would be fun to try something new. But alas nothing will happen until we have found and purchased a home with some acreage, to provide a future home for my amazing TB who is leased out at the moment and to a future warmblood dressage prospect.

As with any horse, it obviously comes down to the individual. A horse could have a fabulous pedigree and be a dud, and the converse is also true. I guess I never paid too much attention to bloodlines with my TBs, it was more like okay, he can jump the moon and back, the bloodlines are irrelevant. But it seems like bloodlines are more of the differentiating factor with warmbloods/sport horses and obviously breeding prospects.

That being said, what bloodlines do you notice, have experience with that are consistently athletic and intelligent with little soundness issues, if such a beast exists. Now I'm also guessing, but I could be wrong, that it can be more economical to buy them younger, before they are actually put under saddle if you are looking for a high quality youngster, rather than waiting till they are 4 or 5. Of course that is a risk, hoping no injuries, proper development, housing them for 2-4 years until they are ready to go under saddle etc.

JenL
Oct. 6, 2011, 04:38 PM
I'll throw another into the mix for you. I usually don't like riding WB's because they don't read my mind like a TB does,... until my latest training/resale project. He's a Selles Francais/Oldenburg. You think it, he does it. So nice and light and responsive and sensitive but sane and level headed. His owner says that all the selles francais he's known are that way... this is my first experience with one under saddle and so far he's opened my eyes to what WB's can be.

Yes I've always loved the look of the Selle Francais, they seem like fabulous jumpers. What do you ride primarily with yours? And ditto on the sensitive, mind reading TB factor. Although sometimes I admit I could do with something a little less reactive than the TBs I seem to collect.

netg
Oct. 6, 2011, 04:46 PM
To put what others have been saying clearly: Those aren't breeds, they are registries. Big difference.


Regardless of registry, I likely want a horse who has a significant amount of TB in its bloodlines for lightness and sensitivity. That's my preference. I have specific lines I've seen and loved in WBs and look for those - in many different registries.

It also depends on the breeders in your area, and quality of their horses. I like the horses bred by a SWB and a Trakehner breeder in driving distance, so if I were looking for a baby right now, there's a good chance I'd get a horse from one of those registries.

There's an ISR/Old mare I am in love with who is bred to a GOV Oldenburg who is Old NA approved... that baby is a strong possibility, too.

But it comes down to the horse in front of you, and all a horse being approved means is that it met that registry's standards - but your standards and the registry's probably don't match up exactly anyway.

Petstorejunkie
Oct. 6, 2011, 05:01 PM
Yes I've always loved the look of the Selle Francais, they seem like fabulous jumpers. What do you ride primarily with yours? And ditto on the sensitive, mind reading TB factor. Although sometimes I admit I could do with something a little less reactive than the TBs I seem to collect.
He's schooling 3rd level dressage at the moment and wants to do more. I love his work ethic! He's sensitive but not to a point it's obnoxious, if you know what I mean. Most of the WB's before him I've ridden reminded me more of hippos than horses.
I am a hot mess to a fence but he takes care of me when we play with jumping on our non dressage days (I'm a grab mane and pray kind of gal), so I can understand the fabulous jumper part. there's pictures of him on my website

carolprudm
Oct. 6, 2011, 07:23 PM
Don't overlook Irish Draughts and Irish Draught Sport Horses.
Yes they CAN do dressage

cadance
Oct. 6, 2011, 07:57 PM
My mare is registered/branded Oldenburg, however her entire sire's line (Cabaret) is Holsteiner, so I like to consider her a Holsteiner in my book, hehe. She is 13 and just a little over a year under saddle (long story, but she was passed around a lot and "too much" for a lot of people, so never was started). She's never been lame (*knocks on wood*), has great feet and doesn't need shoes. We're schooling 3rd level in a double bridle in less than a year. Easy keeper, I have her outside. Extremely smart and athletic, and knows when she's doing a good job- very hard worker!! I can't say enough good things about my horse. Also, the majority of the horses at my barn are Oldenburgs and can say they are extremely sound, athletic horses. They all get along in the arena as well.

Breeding has a HUGE influence on all of this, though. Good breed choices though!!

Timex
Oct. 6, 2011, 08:19 PM
Look at the individual in front of you, not the 'breed' (or registry the papers come from). The different bloodlines can be very different in movement, build, temperment, etc. I had a flaky SF, a couple nice, but not terribly talented Oldies, and a Holst (out of a TB mare) that tried to kill me. My newest project? An OTTB that I used to gallop that likes to jump around like a Mexican jumping bean. ;)

Pcostx
Oct. 6, 2011, 08:31 PM
If I were you, I wouldn't search by breed, I'd search by age/height/price/level of training, etc. and go from there.

Unless you are purchasing a mare or a stallion for breeding, or a prospect for resale, I wouldn't worry about what registry the horse was in, or even if the horse was registered.

There are awesome horses in every registry and there are awesome horses that are grade.

Good luck!

ACP
Oct. 6, 2011, 08:44 PM
There are some reasons to look at pedigree. You want 'train-ability' in any horse, no matter the breed. You also want it in the sire, dam and full/half siblings. If you want to move up the ladder, you need bloodlines who have shown there.

Kyzteke
Oct. 6, 2011, 08:45 PM
Frankly, I think it is less about registry and more about pedigree.



This. In all major registries save Holstein & the Trakheners, most of the same lines are used, especially in dressage and GP jumping.

Holsteiners are not really known as successful GP horses; I know them more as GP jumpers.

But again, I don't think of these WBs as a "breed". If I am looking for a dressage horses, I look at the horse first and the pedigree second. I could care less how the horse is registered.

For instance -- my two foundation dressage broodmares are both Hanoverian registered (although one's grandsire was Oldenburg), and approved both AHS & RPSI. Even though my foals from these mares and most of the stallions I select COULD be registered Old. (either registry) or AHS, they are registered RPSI because they come very close to my place.

So don't buy the breed. Buy the horse.

wcporter
Oct. 6, 2011, 09:01 PM
He's schooling 3rd level dressage at the moment and wants to do more. I love his work ethic! He's sensitive but not to a point it's obnoxious, if you know what I mean. Most of the WB's before him I've ridden reminded me more of hippos than horses.
I am a hot mess to a fence but he takes care of me when we play with jumping on our non dressage days (I'm a grab mane and pray kind of gal), so I can understand the fabulous jumper part. there's pictures of him on my website

Petstorejunkie, if the horse you're talking about is the one you've listed for sale, can you please send him to me tomorrow? :yes:

I dont know what he kept looking at while you were grooming him on the crossties, but his face was cracking me up. I was sold right there. Adorable. :)

thatsnotme
Oct. 6, 2011, 09:49 PM
My two cents also, I love the TB crosses. If you know that you like TB's you may want to look for a cross. I have a reg. Old mare, but her papers actually read more Hann blood on top out of a TB mare. I will say though, if you go with a TB cross, make sure the TB side has done well at the discipline you are going for.
My mare has alot of go, and great movement, but her TB dam was successful to PSG. I really like the added forward and tempermant with the cross. Again, as others have said, I think its more each individual rather than a breed or registry.

Petstorejunkie
Oct. 6, 2011, 10:47 PM
Petstorejunkie, if the horse you're talking about is the one you've listed for sale, can you please send him to me tomorrow? :yes:

I dont know what he kept looking at while you were grooming him on the crossties, but his face was cracking me up. I was sold right there. Adorable. :)
Sure thing! :)
There was a tractor bushogging in the nearby pasture that he was watching. He's a total ham and love bug. He's just as much fun to ride. I'm going to cry when he sells as I've really enjoyed training him.

high hat
Oct. 7, 2011, 01:37 AM
As for me, I do eventing and dressage on the same horses and have found that I like a Hanoverian/Trakehner cross. The Hanoverian seems to give brain and a nice solid body, while the Trakehner adds the spirit and endurance needed to event. My two crosses are reg. Oldenburgs.

This is my young mare as well. Hanoverian/Trakehner reg. Oldenburg NA.

Love her sweet and I do mean sweet personality. She is over 17 hh but, anyone can handle her.

Libera
Oct. 7, 2011, 02:16 AM
If you like to be able to play around with eventing/ showjumping later on, why not look at Trakehners?
They usually have great trainability and are nice allround horses. Plus you can get a horse with some TB blood in it that is still a warmblood :)

They are a bit lighter than Old. and Holstein, which I think is a plus. Those really big, heavy warmbloods sometimes tend to get a bit slow behind. Makes for a nice "floaty" trot, but without a quick hindleg you kinda get stuck in one trot, little adjustability.

I have a Dutch/Trak cross that is registered Trakehner, he is nice and hot in a good way, getting quicker behind. He is also a pretty decent jumper and has tons of stamina.

Manni01
Oct. 7, 2011, 02:27 AM
If I were you, I wouldn't search by breed, I'd search by age/height/price/level of training, etc. and go from there.

Unless you are purchasing a mare or a stallion for breeding, or a prospect for resale, I wouldn't worry about what registry the horse was in, or even if the horse was registered.

There are awesome horses in every registry and there are awesome horses that are grade.

Good luck!

Very true post... I agree. In my riding carrer, I owned a horse imported from the former DDR, several Oldenburgs, a Thrakehner TB Mix, and some Hannoverians...
You donĀ“t ride the Registry, you ride the individual horse.....

DownYonder
Oct. 7, 2011, 06:13 AM
Agree with others - the WBs aren't really "breeds", but rather registries, and there is so much crossing going on amongst them, they are all crossbreds of sorts (exception being the Trakehners, who have fairly closed breeding books).

As examples, I have a homebred mare who is 3/4 Hanoverian and 1/4 Arabian. So is she a Hanoverian, a Hanoverian cross, an Arabian cross or what?

I also have an imported gelding who is sired by a Hanoverian, out of an Oldenburg registered mare by an Oldenburg stallion who comes from Hanoverian, Holsteiner, Westphalian, and Rhinelander lines. The mare's damline comes from Hanoverian, KWPN, and TB lines.

Guess what - both horses are registered as Oldenburgs, so that is what we call them. :cool:

Buy the HORSE and don't focus too much on the registry - esp. if you are just wanting a riding horse.

JenL
Oct. 7, 2011, 08:21 AM
I stand corrected. (thinks registry, not breed! to self). I guess I was looking for some sort of narrowing feature for the search, besides price which will be quite limiting in itself.

suzy
Oct. 7, 2011, 08:48 AM
Ditto Timex.

Don't limit yourself to a breed or a registry. Find the horse that you really connect with. I had owned and ridden numerous breeds and loved them all for different reasons.

Snoball 1
Oct. 7, 2011, 09:17 AM
I adore my Holsteiner. Beautiful gaits, temperament, personality, athletic, versatile, forgiving. What more can I say... he's showing 2cnd level, but can also lay down a flowing hunter trip(A-rated), or quite happy to go out on a long hack in the woods alone. This horse is from the "L" line, by the stallion who stands at "Far-a-Field Acres" in VA.

However- I feel that it's more important to buy the horse, not the breed....

Also, not to solicit business, but check out this trainers website- she happens to have , and has trained dozens of Holsteiners/KWPN and you can see she has achieved Grand Prix with Holsteiners :)

www.sjerdemandressage.com

Serigraph
Oct. 7, 2011, 09:43 AM
I have a Hol/TB, 75% Hol though. I love him. He came with some quirks (that had to do with training not breeding), but now that I have figured him out, he's a dream to ride. He is so comfy, lofty and light.

I recently met another young Holsteiner. He seemed to have a great mind and very nice gaits.

If I was in the market, I'd be looking for another, but would be good with a cross too.

What I think I'd really love, is a Holsteiner pony :)

NoDQhere
Oct. 7, 2011, 09:55 AM
Like everyone else is saying, don't limit yourself to "breed" but rather look for the type you like. The registries are so intermixed these days, especially with some of the European registries setting up shop in the US.

Petstorejunkie
Oct. 7, 2011, 10:06 AM
what you may find useful is to post a thread in the breeding forum asking what WB lines produce horses for otherwise TB lovers.
I'll say, as a TB fan, I do like the Welt line of Oldenburgs (Welt As, Weltmeyer (RIP) (http://www.superiorequinesires.com/stallions/weltmeyer.htm), Weltstern (http://www.greenstonefarm.com/stallions/weltstern.htm)) Light, sensitive, with a quick hind leg. and I believe several were an amazing jumpers at their inspections.

Kyzteke
Oct. 7, 2011, 10:53 AM
I stand corrected. (thinks registry, not breed! to self). I guess I was looking for some sort of narrowing feature for the search, besides price which will be quite limiting in itself.

One of your narrowing feature would be use; if you are shopping for a dressage horse, be honest about what level you want to go for. Certain WB lines (and even TB lines like Lauries Crusador) are known to produce a high level of dressage horses.

Again, there are "R" line horses in every registry out there except Trakes, and they all stem from one original stallion (Ramzes).

In Westphalia and Oldenburg, they used this stallion to produce amazing dressage horses. In Holstein he was used to produce amazing jumpers.

There are other examples -- every registry uses greats like Donnerhall & Weltmeyer....now Sandro Hit.

Get to know your dressage pedigrees first, don't worry about the registry.

scubed
Oct. 7, 2011, 12:05 PM
My two favorite WB breeds (keeping in mind I think OTTBs rock) are Selle Francais and Trakehner. That said, the infamous Keebler is 1/4 holsteiner and I have definitely seen other holsteiners I like. Seems when you say Oldenburg, it can be anything from a Hanoverian/TB cross to a Dutch+ something to ..... so I look more for the look I like, the temperament I want and maybe a close blood relative that I have good experience with (which is the same as I do for TBs)

TrinitySporthorses
Oct. 7, 2011, 01:49 PM
That being said, what bloodlines do you notice, have experience with that are consistently athletic and intelligent with little soundness issues, if such a beast exists. Now I'm also guessing, but I could be wrong, that it can be more economical to buy them younger, before they are actually put under saddle if you are looking for a high quality youngster, rather than waiting till they are 4 or 5. Of course that is a risk, hoping no injuries, proper development, housing them for 2-4 years until they are ready to go under saddle etc.

As a breeder I hate to say this, but in this economy you can probably find a grown (or nearly grown) horse for less than many weanlings. Part of it depends on how much talent you want. If you want something that is capable of someday doing 3rd/4th Level, you should have some luck. Many people are being forced to sell quickly and horses that had a late/slow start, intermittent training, or haven't been started at all have to be priced very low to sell. You will have to weed through a lot of junk and have a good eye, though. If you want SPECTACULAR, then expect to pay for it!

As far as lines known for soundness, I like Ideal. I was a working student at the barn where he stands back in the late90s and knew lots of his offspring. They are usually smart, very friendly, and versatile. He has a lot of blood in his pedigree so his kids are often sensitive without being hot. I find that many TB and Arab people like the compromise here- you get the gaits and talent of the WB with some intelligence and spirit of the blood. He also has good jumping lines, so you would likely get a horse that could compete in dressage and play over the fences, if you want. I knew probably 40 of his kids over the years and none struggled with soundness issues, except for 1 who had been poorly trimmed and then fractured a bone in the foot as a result.
Ideal sired over 300 foals in the US and he was bred to a wide variety of mares- from really nice to backyard QHs, so you can't just assume they are all quality. Of course judging the individual will always be key in any purchase.

Best wishes in your (future) search! :D

horsetales
Oct. 7, 2011, 01:52 PM
As pointed out, these are registries. I would look for other aspects like - temperament, height, skill set. Certain lines are better known for certain traits and people may be able to point you to lines that you might like if you can say what you prefer. I breed Irish sport horses and am looking at producing horses that can succeed in the dressage ring and with that I have used both holst. and Old and am looking at an Old stallion that has a Hanovarian sire and a TB/Trak dam

TrinitySporthorses
Oct. 7, 2011, 01:57 PM
Get to know your dressage pedigrees first, don't worry about the registry.

:yes: You can search the sporthorse breeders forum for more details on particular lines. Certain sires are known for strongly passing on various traits. Just as an example, Rubinstein is renowned for giving a great temperament/trainability but also tends to pass on a slow hind leg. The dressage "greats" like R, D, W, and F lines should be very easy to research.

When you find a sales horse of interest, do a search to find out more about his heritage. Or find horses you really like (now) and then see if you are finding similar names pop up in the pedigree over and over.

Oh, and to spare you confusion, the Dutch (KWPN) registered horses do NOT name their foals after the sire like most registries do. So if you are looking at a horse of any breed with a Dutch ancestor, do not think that the first initial means anything. It only tells you what year they were born :)

2tempe
Oct. 7, 2011, 08:30 PM
I'm with all the others who say to ax the breed requirement and look at the horse - because yep, the $$ limit will narrow your field.
I went shopping for a horse a year and 1/2 ago - wanted a specifice level of training (3rd, so the half passes and changes were in progress) a certain height - no more than 16/2", an amateur temperment. No breed, no sex or color requirements. Ultimate goal is PSG/I-1 (unless this rider really gets her act together) The top three were: Oldenburg mare, Hanoverian/TB gelding, Trakeher mare. The short version is that I vetted them in reverse order First two had issues. I'd had other trakehners in the past and like them a fair amount; the mare was like a little sports car with lovely gaits. The gelding was lovely to ride, big gaits but comfortable and enough of the TB to have a bit of "go". The Oldenburg is also a lovely mare, lots of potential both apparent in her and based on breeding. She is BOMBPROOF as a horse can be and the only minor complaint is that she does not have quite the go button of the other two. This has been a learning adjustment for me (after having a TB schoolmaster) and we are now fine.

CONCLUSION - when you sit on any of the full warmbloods ex probably the Trakehners you MAY find them a bit on the "lazy" side. Given your past experience and history, and desire to learn more about the dressage side, I'd vote for something that is pretty willingly forward, as it will make it easier for the two of you (particularly YOU) to learn.

GreyStreet
Oct. 8, 2011, 02:32 PM
My Trak girl is by Advocate and a TB mare - I LOVE her. Only regret is I don't plan on breeding her due to age, etc. Otherwise I really can't think of a better all around horse. She was an eventer before I purchased her and is now teaching me dressage. She is a joy to be around with her temperament and kind heart but still has enough spunk and sensitivity to keep things interesting. Agree with others who have recommended checking out the Traks.

JenL
Oct. 9, 2011, 02:23 PM
Okay you guys have given me plenty to chew on. Off to the breeding forum to read old threads and learn bloodlines.

Bats79
Oct. 10, 2011, 06:45 AM
My mare is registered/branded Oldenburg, however her entire sire's line (Cabaret) is Holsteiner, so I like to consider her a Holsteiner in my book, hehe. She is 13 and just a little over a year under saddle (long story, but she was passed around a lot and "too much" for a lot of people, so never was started). She's never been lame (*knocks on wood*), has great feet and doesn't need shoes. We're schooling 3rd level in a double bridle in less than a year. Easy keeper, I have her outside. Extremely smart and athletic, and knows when she's doing a good job- very hard worker!! I can't say enough good things about my horse. Also, the majority of the horses at my barn are Oldenburgs and can say they are extremely sound, athletic horses. They all get along in the arena as well.

Breeding has a HUGE influence on all of this, though. Good breed choices though!!

Well, that is very exciting to read. Because I have an 11 yo Holsteiner mare who is being retired from the breeding paddock to go under saddle.