Choosing horses over children? [Archive]

VWScully

Dec. 15, 2003, 06:31 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Phaxxton:
I'm still in my twenties... but I have always known I didn't want children.

So you can count me into the horses instead of children group. My horse is my child - I worry about him, take care of him, love him like crazy. I don't think I could handle a human baby with how consumed I am with my equine one.

Although, I certainly wouldn't mind finding an SO. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif (Only half-joking! haha)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Me too! (although I *do* have an SO and he feels the same way http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) Our animals are our kids and I'm too busy still acting like a kid anyway to have any of my own! lol :

Why is it that when my horse does something right, the judge happens to be looking the other way?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

joannej

Dec. 15, 2003, 06:54 PM

Looking back from the ripe old age of 46, my husband's and my decision to not have kids seems like a really good one. My horse takes up a good deal of my time and money, but my dogs have been my real kid substitutes. They share my home, love me to pieces, are loyal when I don't deserve it.

Jewels

Dec. 15, 2003, 06:58 PM

I'm only 17. But I know I dont want kids! The only kids I want are the ones you get paid to care for for a few hours, then you give em back when the real parents get home from the movies! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

"You could say I'm a few flakes short of a bale" http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif
*Member of the Short Stubby Leg Clique* & *Teen Clique* Finally a place where I belong! *wink*

Showpony

Dec. 15, 2003, 07:20 PM

GREAT TOPIC!! I couldn't imagine doing what I do (full time horses) and having kids! I have never wanted kids. Have spent my whole life obsessed with horses and ponies.

I'd be miserable not being able to devote 100% to the horses and I have NO patience for kids but a lot of patience for horses!

The world is over populated anyway!

~*Adult Pony Rider Clique*~
www.timberrunponies.com (http://www.timberrunponies.com)

flbay

Dec. 15, 2003, 07:31 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I respect the fact that there are people who love kids and want lots of them; but I find that same respect is frequently not returned for my decision not to have kids. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bingo! Making an active/conscious decision NOT to have kids seems to raise the ire of many kid-chained acquaintances. Why do they feel the need to comment on or direct what others do with their private lives? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

faraway46

Dec. 15, 2003, 08:19 PM

I strongly feel that I'm the kidless type. I enjoy them but I don't have that hurricane urge of being a mother that I think is necessary to "breed" http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif
The only big doubt I have is when you are past proffesional dedication age and you settle down a bit...do older aged childless BBer's wish they would have picked differently?
So many parents say that it's an empty life when you're older and w/o children...I cannot contend this since I'm not old (yet, I hope) and I don't have kids. I only wonder what goes on in the head of an older aged, horse crazy BBer that conciously decided not to have little rascals. Any one out there that fits the bill and can fill me in? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Oh! And one more request: to all the friends, relatives, and aquaintances of happily married childless couples...please stop asking "so, when are we going to hear the pitter-patter of little feet?" with that sappy grin on your faces. We know how it's done...if you don't here the pitter-patter, it's 'cause we don't want any!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

LaraLeigh

Dec. 15, 2003, 08:22 PM

I was never a kid person - I do like teenagers - I was a teen youth leader for 5 years for a bunch of kids from a scary part of Los Angeles and I loved it.

But as a horsewoman I never wanted them. I like giving lessons to kids - I find they are much more obediant and moldable than teaching adults!!! But I always felt weird talking to little kids - it really did not come naturally.

I dated a three day rider for a long time and after we broke up - I started dating a financial analyst who is not into horses AT ALL. We bought a horse ranch and I work for a horse rescue. He wanted kids so we now have a 4 mnonth old daughter. I am determined to continue with my horses. But I have learned that I can talk to little kids comfortably and I am VERY glad I had her - she makes me so happy!

But I have to say - I could not be ME and have a baby and stop with horses. That would not be me - I would be miserable. So, for those women who get rid of their horses when they have kids - I could not do that!

Besides, now I have a good excuse to go out pony shopping! =)

Duramax

Dec. 15, 2003, 08:42 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Phaxxton:
I'm still in my twenties... but I have always known I didn't want children.

So you can count me into the horses instead of children group. My horse is my child - I worry about him, take care of him, love him like crazy. I don't think I could handle a human baby with how consumed I am with my equine one.

Although, I certainly wouldn't mind finding an SO. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif (Only half-joking! haha)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh Phaxxton... I always knew we were a match made in heaven! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I don't want kids either! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

MistyBlue

Dec. 15, 2003, 08:53 PM

Oh darn it! Not the thread topic I thought it wold be. I was hoping someone was giving away horses in exchange for children! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I might be a mom, but I've always stood up and saluted those who have made the decision to not have children, whether from lack of wanting them or from preferring to pursue other venues or a career. A far harder and more mature decision to make than having kids, IMHO. Especially with the pressures that society and family can place on a woman, the "but you NEED to have kids!" No, you don't need children to be happy. You don't need a husband to be happy. You only need to do what makes you happy to be happy.
However, there are times I'd consider trading some of my kids for another horse. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Equine Crash Test Dummy
Member of: Non-GPA Clique
80's Clique
Connecticut Clique
Helmet Nazi Clique

poltroon

Dec. 15, 2003, 10:06 PM

I love my daughter (who I always wanted), but here are some fun reasons why horses are better:

You can sell the horse if you don't get along.
Preschool/daycare costs about as much as horse board.
No one thinks you're a terrible person if you leave your horse at home while taking a week-long vacation.
Horses can amuse themselves just fine for most of the day without you.
Horses won't climb your shelves to knock off the breakables.
You don't have to lock the household cleaners into special child-proof closets if you have horses.
Loading a horse on a trailer is less work (and less frequent) than strapping a baby into those confounded child seats.

Finally:
Other people's kids are easy to buy presents for, fun to take on outings, and can be returned within a few hours. Sometimes the parents will even pay YOU to do this. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Kryswyn

Dec. 16, 2003, 12:23 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by flbay:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I respect the fact that there are people who love kids and want lots of them; but I find that same respect is frequently not returned for my decision not to have kids. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bingo! Making an active/conscious decision NOT to have kids seems to raise the ire of many kid-chained acquaintances. Why do they feel the need to comment on or direct what others do with their private lives? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Probably because they feel that children have enriched their lives so much that they wonder why you can't imagine having one yourself. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif That being said, I think if you examine which parents say this to you, you'll find that they have good/easy kids (or at least are not asking you this while one of theirs throws a tantrum on the floor!)

I think having a child is far better than having a horse or a dog (even a Jack Russell LOL) BUT only if (like that horse or dog) it has been raised to be a good family member and asset to the community and a credit to its family name. That's easy to say, but hard to do day in and day out.

I am facing a childless old age and not having children is my biggest regret. But then I've always wanted them. Big difference between me and those women who knew from their teens that having kids was not for them. In an overpopulated world, I can applaud any woman who chooses not to have children but it seems to me that many of the people I think should be contributing to the gene pool are NOT having children (better education, more career choices?) and the people I'd least like to see contribute to the gene pool are having lots.

Although according to a recent AOL article, having 4 plus kids is the new 'trend' among wealthy/higher income parents, and that multiple kids are the new status symbol. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

~Kryswyn~
"Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo"

marta

Dec. 16, 2003, 03:33 AM

me, too.
don't want any kids.
i'm lucky that my SO is older and has a child. i couldn't be w/ a man who would want to have children. i know they would not be a priority in my life.
i wouldn't say that i made this decision solely for horses or riding. but i'm certainly not willing to sacrifice any barn/riding time for a child.
and those of you who have made this decision and stuck w/ it - how do you handle stupid comments from people, such as "you'll change your mind" (accompanied by a condascending smile)?

on a lighter note my secretary from the last job i was at said that i like horses so much that if i ever had a child it would probably be a foal...http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif that was a really clever comment from a completely non-horse lady

"It appears we are being transformed from an information
society to an informant society." Rep. Dennis Kucinich

Dancing Lawn

Dec. 16, 2003, 03:40 AM

I have never been fond of children. I was a horse crazy kid, before I'ld even seen a real horse, so it wasn't a concious decision. It was just a fact. Don't like em, don't want em. But I'll share this funny story: I moved inot my farm 10 years ago. (May, 1993). It's in a small farming community, about 2 hourse n/w of Toronto, so still in this galaxy. I met one of the local families, Mom, Dad, and 3 kids, the oldest of whom was 11, at the time. They came to see the horses, because NOBODY had horses, in this neighbourhood, until I moved in. The 11 year old asked where the kids were. I said, What kids? He said your kids, I guess they're out visiting with someone else with their dad. I replied, I don't have kids, I'm not married. He got the strangest look on his face, very puzzled, and blurts out, But, you're a grownup! All grownups have kids.
I was quite the novelty, apparently, when I moved in. No husband, no kids, not divorced, and with horses! On a 100 acre farm, yet! And I worked in the city! As a telephone repairman! Yup, I guess I am one very peculiar woman.

less hard work, more fine dining.
www.dancinglawnhorses.com (http://www.dancinglawnhorses.com)

If guys can do it, how hard can it be?

The Muffin Man

Dec. 16, 2003, 03:50 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by dancing lawn:
I have never been fond of children. I was a horse crazy kid, before I'ld even seen a real horse, so it wasn't a concious decision. It was just a fact. Don't like em, don't want em. But I'll share this funny story: I moved inot my farm 10 years ago. (May, 1993). It's in a small farming community, about 2 hourse n/w of Toronto, so still in this galaxy. I met one of the local families, Mom, Dad, and 3 kids, the oldest of whom was 11, at the time. They came to see the horses, because NOBODY had horses, in this neighbourhood, until I moved in. The 11 year old asked where the kids were. I said, What kids? He said your kids, I guess they're out visiting with someone else with their dad. I replied, I don't have kids, I'm not married. He got the strangest look on his face, very puzzled, and blurts out, But, you're a grownup! All grownups have kids.
I was quite the novelty, apparently, when I moved in. No husband, no kids, not divorced, and with horses! On a 100 acre farm, yet! And I worked in the city! As a telephone repairman! Yup, I guess I am one very peculiar woman.

less hard work, more fine dining.
http://www.dancinglawnhorses.com

If guys can do it, how hard can it be?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would say you're one very smart woman....... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

BelladonnaLily

Dec. 16, 2003, 04:04 AM

eponacelt

Dec. 16, 2003, 04:29 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by creseida:
I do not have the maternal instinct when it comes to hominids. Mr. Creseida and I both agreed early on that we have no desire to have our lives ruled by a child for 18+ years. I respect the fact that there are people who love kids and want lots of them; but I find that same respect is frequently not returned for my decision not to have kids. "How can you _not_ want kids?" Easy. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What she said!

Seriously. My husband and I don't want kids. I'm 28, he's 30. We have three dogs and a horse and would love to have at least one more horse. I have a job I love and am sucessful at. He loves his work. I respect people who want to share their lives with children, but I want the same respect for sharing mine with animals.

At least my parents understand this and when I got my horse two years ago, my mom brought pictures of him to work so she could show off her new "grandchild". It really says something that she actually has pictures of my DOGS on her desk!

artienallie

Dec. 16, 2003, 05:00 AM

I don't want children, neither does Mr. A&A. We have a nephew and two nieces, which are plenty of children in my life, really.

I'd like to send out a heartfelt thank you to the women on this thread who have children yet understand and respect the decisions those of us who don't want them. It's a pretty rare thing. I really hate the all-too common statement, "Oh, you'll change your mind" No, I won't.

My mother-in-law and sister-in-law don't understand our decision, but my mother proudly displays photos of her "grandponies" and "grandkitties" on her desk at work. I love my mom!

No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

Holly Jeanne

Dec. 16, 2003, 05:39 AM

Well, at this stage I think it's safe to say no kids in my life. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I've always known I didn't really want kids of my own. I'm happy having two neices and one nephew. Although, when they were little, my sister used to try to get me to change diapers. I told her that if I wanted to change diapers, I'd have my own kids. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif My other sister is non-horsey and also doesn't have kids but she is blown away at what I will do to take care of the horses but still refuse to do diapers.

ESG

Dec. 16, 2003, 05:46 AM

My ex-in-laws (would that make them outlaws?) were absolutely obnoxious on this point. They didn't seem to realize that not only did I not want children, but their precious son wasn't pleased with the prospect, either. The nagging and comments ("Isn't it about time you got pregnant?") continued until one day at Sunday dinner, I'd had enough. My FIL had just said "You know, you ought to get rid of them cats and that horse and have you a baby." I replied "Fine. Just so long as I can drop it off with you and (MIL) and pick it up when it's eighteen. This should be old hat for you guys by now" (they had raised four). I thought MIL was going to swallow her tongue! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Her "Oh, no you don't!" put paid to most of the comments.

I like kids. When they're someone else's. Most of my friends are childless, so it's easy for me to socialize with people who are like-minded where the child-rearing is concerned. And when the specter of a "childless old age" rears its head, I pat it and rejoice. Let's face it; how many parents do you know whose grown children ignore them for the most part? And this is what's supposed to comfort you in your golden years? Boy, I'd have to be senile already to believe that stuff............. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Estelle

Dec. 16, 2003, 05:48 AM

Me, Im 45, no kids, well my critters, those are my kids...knew as a teenager I wasnt going to have human children...dont regret it at all.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by basset:
"I don't _want_ children. Only horses" - Velvet from the book "National Velvet"

At our recent barn party, I was looking around the room and noticed that there were a number of professional women who have chosen to dedicate their lives to their horses instead of having children. I am amoung the childless with a horse. I am satisfied with this, even though my family thinks I'm a nut.

Are there any other women here who have decided to not have (or delay having) children in pursuit of riding? There have been a bunch of "how do I juggle kids/horse threads, but not a "I'd rather just ride" one.

Anybody?

" I didn't really say everything I said "--Yogi Berra

Member of the Olde Farte Clique<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Blessed are we who can laugh at ourselves for we shall never cease to be amused.--Erin Mack

ESG

Dec. 16, 2003, 05:52 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Holly Jeanne:
I'm happy having two neices and one nephew. Although, when they were little, my sister used to try to get me to change diapers. I told her that if I wanted to change diapers, I'd have my own kids. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif My other sister is non-horsey and also doesn't have kids but she is blown away at what I will do to take care of the horses but still refuse to do diapers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd sooner clean fifty stalls than change one diaper. Ecchhh. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

War Admiral

Dec. 16, 2003, 05:54 AM

what esg said.

however, in my defense i have to say that i do seem to be good at dealing w/ adolescents - b/c i genuinely like them - just about the age their parents start hating 'em! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

______________

sorry about lack of caps. i'm typing one-handed. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

ESG

Dec. 16, 2003, 05:59 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by War Admiral:
what esg said.

however, in my defense i have to say that i do seem to be good at dealing w/ adolescents - b/c i genuinely like them - just about the age their parents start hating 'em! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

______________

(<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, me too! I was a substitute teacher for a while and loved the middle school kids. Elementary were just too immature, and the high school students thought I was one of them (I'm rather petite http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif ) but the 6-8 grade bunch were cool. Old enough to reason with, young enough to make them respect you pretty easily, as long as you treated them fairly.

Hey, sounds like a horse. Maybe that's why............. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Nix

Dec. 16, 2003, 06:07 AM

I haven't made a concious effort to not have children because of my animals. I have just put the idea out of my head because Ithink that I would not be a good parent.

I've noticed that many kids around me (neighbors, friends, relatives) have not so happy lives because their parents don't do a good job. It's not that I pass judgement against the parents or tell them how to raise their kids... I just see from an outsider's perspective that the kids and parents are not happy.

I don't want to put myself in that sort of situation by having children. When I do things in my life I put 110% in all the time and I don't think I can do that with kids. I love my neices and nephew - they mean the world to me. But that's as far as I think I can emotionally take it.

My husband blames my feelings on my horse. It has been hard for me to explain to him that it's really not the commitment to the horse - it's all the other things in life. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

~ Riding... the art of keeping the horse between you and the ground. ~

DebS

Dec. 16, 2003, 06:07 AM

I have a lot of respect for people in general, with or without kids and don't hold any group above the other.

I am curious if anyone actually *chose* not to have kids to pursue their riding? By that I mean actually wanted kids, had an oportunity to have kids, was physically able to have them but decided NOT to so they could dedicate their lives to horses.

Otherwise it sounds like there's little "choice" involved. Perhaps I'm being picky about "wanting" and "not wanting". Choice to me means you want both and have to chose one over the other.

I did want both and chose to have kids. I'll admit sometimes I regret not being able to ride more and will probably never own a horse (or will be ancient when it happens). The good times far outweigh any regret and I love my kids no end, but would REALLY understand and respect someone who said "Horses first".

Member, Equine Artist Clique

Just My Style

Dec. 16, 2003, 06:18 AM

I really respect a person's decision to not have children. Having children is not for everyone and it is great when someone decides that it just isn't the right choice for them.

That being said- I have a three year old son. I was one who never wanted children, but after I got married, that changed for me. Having a child is/was/will always be my most challenging job. After my little one was potty trained this year, I rewarded myself with a horse. (I had sold my high-maintenance jumper when I was pregnant with him and felt like a giant piece of me was missing.) Because my son is getting older, I am CONSTANTLY bombarded with "When are you going to have another?"- like having two is a requirement. "You can't have just one, they will turn out screwed up." Honestly, I couldn't be happier. I am the parent of one and I have a horse. I can't imagine going back to the restrictions of infancy and not being able to give my horse enough attention.

GA Clique/Drafties Clique
Live Large- Ride a Drafty!

Dec. 16, 2003, 06:21 AM

Well I'm almost 24, have been married 3.5 years, and am turning into my mom's biggest nightmare: a daughter who will probably have horses instead of children.

She never quite understood why the boarding barns were full of happily married, healthy women with about 2-3 horses each and zero kids. It was easy for me to see: they didn't want to have kids.

Now I admit I've been through some strong maternal urges phases, but on the whole, I don't think I'm cut out for motherhood. I like my sleep too much. I'm not as patient as I'd like to be. I don't like to be tied down. I don't know what we'd do about me working. We live two hours away from all family. Another biggie is that up until this fall my husband and I have had a rocky marriage. While we are doing wonderful now and will be fine, I'd rather not bring a child into the equation

My husband is as lukewarm as I am on the whole deal. I had always heard that when it comes to making the decision to have a baby, it takes two yesses and one no. At this point, we have TWO nos. Yes, we are both quite young and could change our minds, but I have some health issues that could significantly impact my ability to get pregnant and have been advised it could take a while.

To those that ask that question "So when are YOU TWO going to have a baby?" I think it's incredibly rude and nosy. For my husband and I, that is a very personal, intimate topic that we discuss carefully and very much in private. It's none of anyone else's damn business, even my parents'. I've even had new parents force me to hold their newborn when I have insisted I'd rather not, just to egg me on, and then laugh when I appear uncomfortable. It's just like anything else: if you don't know the whole story, keep your questions and comments to yourself.

***
The hardest to learn was the least complicated.

wendy

Dec. 16, 2003, 06:26 AM

well, I long ago decided not to have children, but it has nothing to do with choosing horses over children. I just have no interest in children, and don't understand why anyone would want to have one.

eponacelt

Dec. 16, 2003, 06:26 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by kt:
I've even had new parents force me to hold their newborn when I have insisted I'd rather not, just to egg me one, and then laugh when I appear uncomfortable.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif
This happens to me all the time! When my brother-in-law and his wife had a baby, the baby was constantly forced on me as if holding him might make me see the error of my ways!

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Lucassb

Dec. 16, 2003, 06:27 AM

Interesting discussion.

I have never wanted kids, and so won't have any. I think you should only have children if you desperately want them, and (very non PC, I know) can afford to take care of them - not just financially but in terms of personal time and effort as well.

When I was married, and people were rude enough to say "oh, you'll change your mind," I am afraid that I was often equally rude back... "well, if I do... I can have some. If you change YOUR mind... you are screwed!"

That usually put an end to the conversation.

**********
"It is good to have an end to journey towards; but it is the journey that
matters, in the end."
-Ursula K. Le Guin

caffeinated

Dec. 16, 2003, 06:35 AM

Well this is certainly relevant... I'm in the middle of breaking off a 4 year relationship because I don't want the same family things that he does. I'm a very maternal type person, and do want a kid someday. But I need horses and critters and such to be happy. It was implied that horses were something I would grow out of, when it came time to grow up and get responsible, and start popping out the younguns.

I was already being told I was spendign too much time at the barn with the horses, that it made him feel neglected. Meanwhile I felt I wasn't spending ENOUGH time there.

So, among other things, it's time to move on and make my life something worthwhile. And I really hope he finds a nice girl who wants nothing more than to have 3-5 kids, two dogs, and a big house on a hill.

_____________________________
"It takes a whole lot of testosterone to wear a beret and not look fruity"
**
formerly known as grog

Nix

Dec. 16, 2003, 07:32 AM

kt you took the words right out of my mouth... well put.

At this point, if I had to give up my horse to have a child I would be horrified. I've been married almost 6 years and I used to be in the frame of mind of "I'll be ready for kids in a few years or so" but now it's more like "I don't think I'll ever want to commit to kids". I feel very guilty for this and everyone around me makes me feel worse! I guess I never think of good come-backs to the attitude people give me.

tcgelec

Dec. 16, 2003, 07:36 AM

Well, this is a slightly different perspective.

My wife and I never had kids. It didn't happen naturally, and neither of us was driven to pursue the whole fertility thing, or adoption. We like kids, but that insatiable drive that seems to be there with some people, was not there with us.

Our animals were definitely kid substitutes. The best part is, they never grow up! We got a dog first, a wonderful German Shepherd named Jessie. Then I got involved with horses, first lessons, then leasing at a commercial barn, a series of other horse situations, then we bought a different house with some land and built a barn. In the meantime, my then-10yr old niece Samantha came to live with us because her mother (my wife's sister) was ill and couldn't care for her. I really didn't think that I had the time, money, disposition or inclination to raise a kid, but this was just doing the right thing, for a short term.

Well Samantha's mom died, so she is with us permanently now. She is now 13. She is horse crazy like me. I am 50 yrs old, male, with no experience with kids and have almost nothing to talk about with a 13 yr old girl. Almost, that is, except horses. Horses are our common love, and are the catalyst that makes this family work. Whatever we disagree about in the house, we can almays find something to agree about at the barn. In retrospect, it seems like it was all part of a miraculous plan. The money. although tight at times, seems to be just enough. The time just seems to make itself available.

We now have two horses, one Samantha's and one mine. We have a boarder with a third horse, she is 21 and is like a big sister to Samantha. We also have two more dogs and three cats.

So, to make a long story short, I'm a convert. Didn't know what I really wanted but I recognize it now that I have it.

As has been said before, it's only a job if you'd rather be doing something else.

Camstock

Dec. 16, 2003, 07:39 AM

Ha! Whenever anyone presents me with a newborn to hold, I smile, keep my upper arms perpendicular to the floor and do not bend my elbows. Works every time. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I sent my mom a picture of hubby and me at the hunt ball. All dolled up. My mom, the dog breeder who actually utters aloud such phrases as "fine breeding stock" about people, said about the picture "People who look like that should have children". I said, with a big smile, "People *can* look like that because they don't have children." She was tweaked. This was after a long string of not so subtle hints. (Disclaimer: I know some couples who have kids and look and feel great and can afford what they want. More power to them.)

I'm like a lot of folks here. I like kids. For an afternoon, for a lesson, even on occasion for a weekend. Not 24/7/365. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Every child needs a childfree auntie to escape to now and then. I'm her.

Oh, and if anyone suggests I am "childless", I suggest I am "childfree". Said with a smile, it has changed a few frames of reference.

Dancing Lawn

Dec. 16, 2003, 07:48 AM

Camstock, I have the sdame reaction. make no move to take the baby. They'll get the hint.
On a funny note, I once dated a guy, for quite a while. He was Italian, and you know what their mothers can be like about the whole baby thing.
Well, after over a year, he says to me"I've decided its time for you to get pregnant." and that's a direct quote. No discussion, no have you changed your mind, just I'VE DECIDED! I mean, really. In this day of enlightenment. I put on my coat and walked out. Am I supposed to be treated like a baby factory just because I have the equipment? Creepy.

less hard work, more fine dining.
www.dancinglawnhorses.com (http://www.dancinglawnhorses.com)

If guys can do it, how hard can it be?

Nikki^

Dec. 16, 2003, 07:58 AM

Count me in too! I'm an Aunt and that is ok with me. My horses, Dogs and cats are perfect children.

Dancing lawn: I am embarrassed that your BF said that to you. What a Stromboli!! You are right about Italian mothers about children. My mom says I'm selfish for not having kids. I do not want to be a broodmare thank you!

Kioko (http://www.geocities.com/area51/crater/5267/HeartofGold.html)

Look up your TB's bloodlines (http://www.dmtc.com/dmtc98/Pedigree/)

[This message was edited by Nikkibaby27 on Dec. 16, 2003 at 11:11 AM.]

Cherry

Dec. 16, 2003, 08:04 AM

I don't have children, but there are enough adults around me who act like children, so it doesn't matter--I get to use my parenting skills on them... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Honestly, I think I like kids better than adults but can't afford them and have no support system, which I think is essential when you have children... Also, I look at my older brothers and am glad I didn't feel the need to perpetuate my family's genes--they are marginal human beings, at best... My greatest fear is that any kids I might have would turn out just like them... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

All my life I had wanted a horse and finally got one after waiting thirty-five years... I know I can't have both...

As a child I also wanted to do something to help animals that were homeless--I have taken in countless stray animals (from cats to guinea pigs) and we had two Cocker Spaniels cousins (one paid for, one adopted) at one time, so I gotten to live out my childhood fantasies... I wouldn't have had the time or the money if I had had children and some people just ought not to have kids...

Having children is a tremendous responsiblity that the majority of people just don't understand, but they go ahead and have kids anyway--I think that's what's wrong with this country... Anyway, I have no problem with children and have even thought about being a mentor, so I have no regrets about not having my own... There are plenty of children to go around that need guidance and love, even if they belong to someone else... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"Everything looks good until you start to examine it!!!", uttered by me on more than one occasion

caffeinated

Dec. 16, 2003, 08:18 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Cherry:
Having children is a _tremendous_ responsiblity that the majority of people just don't understand, but they go ahead and have kids anyway--I think that's what's wrong with this country... Anyway, I have no problem with children and have even thought about being a mentor, so I have no regrets about not having my own... There are plenty of children to go around that need guidance and love, even if they belong to someone else... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

EXACTLY!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

_____________________________
"It takes a whole lot of testosterone to wear a beret and not look fruity"
**
formerly known as grog

Camstock

Dec. 16, 2003, 08:21 AM

Dancing Lawn,

Step away from the baby... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

hee heedilly hee.

Goofy TB Mare

Dec. 16, 2003, 08:26 AM

Hahaha, I'm in the opposite boat. I'm 23 and right now, and am not ready to have kids yet. But, I want to have my first child early enough that she/he will be able to ride/show my horse before my horse is too old and she's 14 right now!! I know, I'm crazy! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

However, my mom has always said that I will have the child dressed in Wal-Mart clothes and the horse standing in the pasture in a Rambo blanket!

http://community.webshots.com/user/chunkymonkey868

**Forever South**
**Bama's Blues** not mine but he's my babyboy!
**Brinkum's Cross**

Leena

Dec. 16, 2003, 08:35 AM

It is really funny this thread. I saw a survey a couple of years ago on this and the result came out this way: 34% of female rider prefer an new horse to another kid. That survey was conduct throughout America, let's say 7 years ago.

There was other thing mentionned as they hide the real horse expenses to their husband.. and bla bla. We had a good laugh at the barn.

equestrielle

Dec. 16, 2003, 08:44 AM

I just read on the news that 40% of women of child bearing age are not having kids.

I never was one to want to have kids, but my husband talked me into it (in my mid-30s), and I have no regrets. But it certainly does cut into horse time, that's for sure.

I just swore to myself that I wouldn't give up the horses, and I haven't. Just made some adjustments, is all.

cgn38

Dec. 16, 2003, 08:56 AM

From the time I was a child myself, I "knew" that I didn't want children. I still don't. I put my heart and soul into my horses, and I just would not have time or interest for children. I am an all or nothing kind of person. (I think I would drive human children nuts with my worry and safety consciousness). There was a fleeting moment during my graduate thesis when I thought I might like to just stay home and have kids - I think it was the pressure getting to me. I have since realized that raising children has got to be one of the most challenging things anyone could take on. Also, in my twenties I read an article in the New York Times Magazine (I wish I had saved it) that really made me think. The author was looking back on her child raising years and although she claimed not to regret having children, she encouraged women to not have kids unless they felt such an incredible desire to raise them that they couldn't imagine life without them. She (paraphrasing here) suggested not having them unless you absolutely could not live without them. I wonder about the society we would have if everyone thought this way. Just a thought, not a critique on my part...

Amy

Dec. 16, 2003, 09:04 AM

I have heard the pitter patter of little feet- just this morning as a matter of fact! But it was the pitter patter of PUPPY feet!! Ah the best kind!

I have never really wanted to have kids either. People said that will change now that you are married. So I thought about it. Last year this time I gave it a great deal of thought. DH is lukewarm but willing if that is what I want. He has a son and likes the *somewhat* freedom we have. After much thought I decided I was right originally- a new puppy was in order instead! We love her to pieces and treat all the dogs/ puppies/ horses like they were our kids.

On a funny side note I found out one of my mares was pregnant by my colt... so I spent the night calling all my relatives to tell them.

Callled my sister and said "Guess who's pregnant!" She sputtered and in a horrified voice said "OH MY GOD" which was followed seconds later by "Wait- it must be a horse!". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif It was too much fun though to resist!

poltroon

Dec. 16, 2003, 09:12 AM

It's ridiculous to call someone selfish for not having kids. It's like being called selfish for not going out to the mall and buying yourself a big screen TV and stimulating the economy. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

If for some reason you do feel some guilt (and no reason you should) and/or want a comeback, why not think of something you'd buy for your never-to-be kid and make a donation? For example, I had figured (before I had a kid) that the least I would do was send the mythical child to horse summer camp, so I sponsored a kid at Horses in the Hood as a Christmas present for Mom. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Last (and true) story: A friend of mine was married and living in a rural area. She went for her annual gyn appointment, and the nurse asked her kindly, "So, you're 24 and you've never had a baby? Should we be considering a fertility workup?" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Merry

Dec. 16, 2003, 09:18 AM

I was ambivalent about being a "mom" since I was a teenager. Then I married an older man who made it clear he didn't want kids. After a few years we both began to reconsider. But the whole idea of incubating an alien being inside my body, which will then erupt forth... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

I did weigh horses vs. a child. Even though I was a teacher for several years, and found it very rewarding, kids were never at the center of my universe. Horses and animals have defined my life.

Then I got diagnosed with a potentially fatal and hereditary immune system disorder, and underwent years of treatment that would've damaged a fetus or made raising a kid impossible, so there ya' go. Decision made, forever.

And while I give kudos to those who choose to have kids and who can raise, nurture and educate them properly,I have no regrets. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

num1train

Dec. 16, 2003, 09:25 AM

Les and I have a beautiful daughter who is the light of our life. I couldn't ask for a better or more wonderful child.

This being said, we also decided to have another "child", Sweetie. We feel very blessed to have our daughter and a really wonderful mare (well when she get's out of the hospital...she cut her leg on a fence). We feel very content with the decision to have one child and a horse.

I understand not having the desire to have children. I, too, did not have the desire to get pregnant. My husband basically had to "knock" me up http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.. However, I am soooo glad that we did decide to have a child. She is just a blessing.

A different perspective from someone who decided to only have one child AND a horse. Believe me, I still get the questions about having a second child. My response is, "I have one. She is three years old and off the growth charts at 1200 lbs." That seems to shut them up in a hurry. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

All that matters is that YOU are happy in life.

Don't just appear in life, STAR in it!

OlmosHeaven

Dec. 16, 2003, 09:43 AM

I, too, was one of those women who was never interested in children (maybe being an only child living far away from any relatives had something to do with that). It wasn't a case of choosing horses over children. I got my first horse at 25 and already knew that I wasn't interested in kids. But not having children sure makes it easier to afford the horses.

Fortunately, Mr. OH felt pretty much the same way. I do think that if I had wanted them, that would have been fine with him. I am a little sorry for my in-laws though. It's unlikely that they will ever be grandparents since Mr. OH's only sibling is in her 40s and unmarried. But my MIL has never mentioned it to me, except to sigh when she called herself grandmom to our toy poodle. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I did wonder if I would regret being childless, but at 51 that hasn't happened. My dad and I had a great relationship (my mom died many years ago) and I know that I'll never have that kind of parent-adult child relationship, but so be it.

Just My Style: Nothing wrong with only children. If I had wanted children, it most likely would have been one. I survived just fine and was not spoiled rotten. I even bought my first horse (although my dad felt really guilty that his only child had to buy her first horse and more than made it up to me over the years).

tcgelec: You had parenthood thrust upon you and I do so admire what you're doing. Good luck.

kmk

Dec. 16, 2003, 09:57 AM

tcgelec ,now that is a good story! I got teary, just imagineing you with your new preteen!

I never thought about haveing kids at all, horses /boys/school.... then i got pregnant!
Well we are happily married now for 6 yrs have a 6 yr old and a three yr old and three horses.. I am now just finally being able to enjoy the horses, one child is in school and the other day care so I can have so real me time. Me and my horse that is.

I will say it is hard, but the children arent the hardest part, just relationships in general are, living in a marriege is the difficult part.. The kids are so much fun, being a family means more to me then anything ,I had cut down to one horse for a time because of time problums(a month)(well I tried right?) I guess I just like to have a full life....

of course my family(sisters and brother) are on their third child, when they ask about us haveing a third, I simply say" we are looking into some stallions but we cannot decide if we want a pony or a warmblood" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Kristine ~ owned by two silly, silly tb's

NIH

Dec. 16, 2003, 10:00 AM

I Used to be a "don't want kids" kinda person because I was stuck in this really bad relationship for 4 years with an internet sex addicted freak who saved (yes saved) all of the IM sex chats and book marked all of the porno web sites dating back to 1994 on there lap top work computer in addition to having tons of credit card debit and private college loans who later on in life "forgot" to open a 401K retirement with the company (who would have contributed even if you didn't) and still works for that company for 7+ years ..... who thought they could publish a high end "horsey" magazine by financing it on credit card ........meanwhile, supporting an elderly mother by sending money back home and continuing to buy stupid materialistic items on ebay and spending the days at work surfing the internet (or magazines at Borders) for high end horse real estate which they will never be able to afford........ did I mention they told me when we first met that they *knew* how to ride and used to take lessons.... ummm, that was all part of the "dream world" they live in. Did I mention that they know anything and everything about Ferrari's although couldn't and never have owned a car at the age of 30+ years? This person's sister even warned me that this person was a "dreamer" while we were all on vacation in Florida........ phew, thank goodness I woke up out of that nightmare and got out of the relationship although it took a while as our lives were very intertwined.

Anyway, you get the point. I was smart enough to NOT have a child with that kind of a person. It was they who never wanted to have children and I just convinced myself to not want children on account of being afraid to "rock" the boat or cause a problem in the relationship which is stupid because I never even loved this person to begin with. So...after reading all of the hundreds of sex chats on this person's computer and putting a lot of information together and doing a bit of searching and background checking I truly think they were a victim of some kind of childhood trauma or sex abuse and in addition having a hard time with there own sexuality and hiding as a "closet" gay but leading a double life as a straight person and this I think being the reason they never wanted children.

While I was setting myself up during the last 7 months of the relationship I got to be very good friends with a former horse trainer and Polo player ...... shazam...... we hit it off and now almost a year and 5 months later the former trainer and I are in love and planning a wedding in October 2004 and want children ASAP! I am 30+ years and my former trainer is 9 years older than I..... so no time wasting!

Funny, but I never loved the person that I was in the relationship for 4 years..... perhaps it was just a way of passing time or God's way of bringing me to the other person or maybe it was low self esteem or what ever which kept me bound to it. My friend's tell me I got sucked in by a very sick person. I look back and think or rather panic about all the warning signs I didn't or avoided seeing ....... I desperately tried to make the relationship work because it was doomed from the beginning on account of this person's past and "extra curricular activities" which they were never honest with in the beginning or at the end of the relationship and continue to lie to themselves about even as I write this. The whole relationship was a lie lie lie lie lie.

So it goes to show you that sometimes you make decisions for different reasons and for different reasons life takes you on a journey and those decisions change for one reason or another. I changed from not wanting children to really wanting children with the person I have fallen in love with and have an incredible relationship where I don't have to "work" to make it right as it happens naturally on it's own. While that other person is still dreaming dreams while my dreams are coming true...... I found someone who loves horses, knows how to ride and train horses, has a very well established career and retirement plan has a house and 25 acres, horses, car/truck/trailer and best of all he doesn't even know how to turn on a computer!

Maybe after time goes on some of you will join me in the once "no child" category to the "wants children" category?

ladydoctor

Dec. 16, 2003, 10:18 AM

Interesting topic! From the age of 6, I decided I did not want children and my "adopted" aunt was my role model. She had been married for years and had no kids. Before I got married, I made it clear to my husband that I did not want kids and he said "fine". I had always mothered animals and was never attracted to babies. Then when I was 39, a special person in my life was in a coma and when I went to the hospital to see him, his son was there comforting his wife and it changed my mind. I went to a therapist to discuss my success at mothering animals and lack of maternal instincts towards children. He told me that he recommended that prospective parents get a dog before they have kids, as "practice". Well, I had lots of that kind of practice! I went home and told my husband that I wanted to have a kid and he said "fine". I had a son when I was 40 and have no regrets. Well, sometimes I'm jealous of my friends who don't have to race to school to pick up a kid....

This is the funny part about my having a kid: I had quit riding a few years prior when I decided I could not do it on the budget I had set for myself. When my son was 3 yrs old, I decided to cut back my work to 4 days a week. I started going to a friend's barn (who had a 5 yr old daughter) to ride and ended up buying one of her horses. Now I work 3 days a week and have 2 horses. I ride while my son is at school on the days I don't work plus one weekend day. I never would have been able to justify working 3 days a week if it wasn't for my son and now I have a kid AND more time to ride. Perfect!

mrs.smith

Dec. 16, 2003, 10:23 AM

NIH,

Congrats on getting out of such an ugly relationship an into a great one. I can see why you didn't have kids. There are so many women I hear of that have mulitple children with these guys in order to "cement" the realtionship (my sister, for one). It never works and it's the poor kids who suffer.

BTW, does your guy have a likeminded brother? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

" I didn't really say everything I said "--Yogi Berra

Member of the Olde Farte Clique

marta

Dec. 16, 2003, 10:24 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lucassb:
When I was married, and people were rude enough to say "oh, you'll change your mind," I am afraid that I was often equally rude back... "well, if I do... I can have some. If you change YOUR mind... you are screwed!"

That usually put an end to the conversation.

**********

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif
yes, it's rude but i think i might use it anyway.

"It appears we are being transformed from an information
society to an informant society." Rep. Dennis Kucinich

NIH

Dec. 16, 2003, 10:26 AM

Basset, thanks! It was such a release to get that all out.... I feel so much better now that I told my story!

Well, no likeminded brother but a few friends who are still single.... flying in to Chicago soon? we can hook ya up!

ESG

Dec. 16, 2003, 10:37 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by NIH:
Anyway, you get the point. I was smart enough to NOT have a child with that kind of a person. It was they who never wanted to have children and I just convinced myself to not want children on account of being afraid to "rock" the boat or cause a problem in the relationship which is stupid because I never even loved this person to begin with.

While I was setting myself up during the last 7 months of the relationship I got to be very good friends with a former horse trainer and Polo player ...... shazam...... we hit it off and now almost a year and 5 months later the former trainer and I are in love and planning a wedding in October 2004 and want children ASAP! I am 30+ years and my former trainer is 9 years older than I..... so no time wasting!

So it goes to show you that sometimes you make decisions for different reasons and for different reasons life takes you on a journey and those decisions change for one reason or another. I changed from not wanting children to really wanting children with the person I have fallen in love with and have an incredible relationship where I don't have to "work" to make it right as it happens naturally on it's own. While that other person is still dreaming dreams while my dreams are coming true...... I found someone who loves horses, knows how to ride and train horses, has a very well established career and retirement plan has a house and 25 acres, horses, car/truck/trailer and best of all he doesn't even know how to turn on a computer!

Maybe after time goes on some of you will join me in the once "no child" category to the "wants children" category?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm so happy for you that you found the right person after the trials you went through with your ex SO. The only thing that annoys me about your post is the last sentence. It makes you sound just like all the other insensitive people we've been talking about on this thread. The "Oh, if you just meet the right person, you'll change your mind, dear" sort of nosey Parker that all we happily childless folks would cheerfully throttle. I don't know if that was your intent or not, but that's the impression I got.
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

nhwr

Dec. 16, 2003, 10:40 AM

Ahhh ESG,

You know how it is when you come across something new that you really like! Having kids is like that almost every day! Sometimes it becomes like religion http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif You gotta realize that those of us who have kids and loff it are just trying to share the loff. Plus we are always looking to expand that babysitting co op http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

NIH

Dec. 16, 2003, 10:41 AM

ESG.... no I think my intent was... if life throws you a new or good opportunity, don't be afraid to change your mind or let something hold you back, like I did!

It was such a MISTAKE for me to make up my mind not to have children just because my SO didn't want to have children and I was afraid to rock the boat in the relationship by having children...... make sure you make your decisions like not having children for your OWN piece of mind and not someone elses.

Don't be a fool like I was and live your life and make decisions to make someone else happy! Make yourself happy FIRST and if you don't want to have children then do it for yourself and not someone else.....

caballo_saltando

Dec. 16, 2003, 10:43 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Oh! And one more request: to all the friends, relatives, and aquaintances of happily married childless couples...please stop asking "so, when are we going to hear the pitter-patter of little feet?" with that sappy grin on your faces. We know how it's done...if you don't here the pitter-patter, it's 'cause we don't want any!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh my god I nearly choked on my Ramen when I read that. That was funny and so true.

ESG

Dec. 16, 2003, 10:51 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by NIH:
ESG.... no I think my intent was... if life throws you a new or good opportunity, don't be afraid to change your mind or let something hold you back, like I did!

It was such a MISTAKE for me to make up my mind not to have children just because my SO didn't want to have children and I was afraid to rock the boat in the relationship by having children...... make sure you make your decisions like not having children for your OWN piece of mind and not someone elses.

Don't be a fool like I was and live your life and make decisions to make someone else happy! Make yourself happy FIRST and if you don't want to have children then do it for yourself and not someone else.....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for your response. It was the one I was hoping I'd get. I wish you and your intended every happiness, and a housefull of little 'uns. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ESG

Dec. 16, 2003, 10:52 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by nhwr:
Ahhh ESG,

You know how it is when you come across something new that you really like! Having kids is like that _almost every day_! Sometimes it becomes like religion http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif You gotta realize that those of us who have kids and loff it are just trying to share the loff. Plus we are always looking to expand that babysitting co op http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, okay. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

It's just that I keep going back to that study that you posted on Muley's forum about the rats? <shudder> http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif I don't wanna be a rat! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

NIH

Dec. 16, 2003, 10:57 AM

Thanks ESG....

you know, I could have been happy without children or a husband. After the break up with mister "freak" I was on my own for a long time and I enjoyed it. I also have a career where I can support myself and my horses..... it just happened that I fell in love with this really great guy who happens to love horses as much as I..... funny, he could have been happy without a wife or children and self support himslef and his horses .... it just happened for the both of us..... we fell into a love so deep and real that we want to share children with each other.....

But I totally understand your feelings of not wanting any children...... I was so much like you two years ago.... this falling in love business and wanting children is something I never planned on ..... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif ... it just happened..... kinda like catching a cold, BAM it just hits you and knocks you out!

okggo

Dec. 16, 2003, 11:01 AM

This is a great topic. I have never wanted children and have OFTEN been told "that will change." It hasn't. I broke up with my ex because (among other things) he wanted a litter and I didn't want any. I have 2 dogs, 3 birds, and 1 (who I'm breeding, so will be 2) horses. I had a cat, but she regretfully died. And I'm so content that way.
It's good to hear there are other people that feel the way I do, it makes me feel like less of a wierdo (don't you love that technical term!).

"Her life was okay. Sometimes she wished she were sleeping with the right man instead of with her dog, but she never felt she was sleeping with the wrong dog." Judith Callas

nhwr

Dec. 16, 2003, 11:29 AM

Hey, most behavior studies are done with rats, girl friend! That study just sited that exposure to the hormones associated with pregnancy improved a female's response to stress. I'd wager it improves the sense of humor too http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

mellsmom

Dec. 16, 2003, 12:07 PM

Kryswyn-

I only wonder about who will make medical decisions for me when I'm too old to make my own :-) I think that the best thing to do is for all us childless adults to buy ajoining properties and have a self-care community barn as we slide gracefully into old age.
Shared labor, Shared expense, shared fun.

"I've got a holiday, a paid holiday, I've got a holiday in my head"

Don't like my riding? Call 1-800- phh- fftt

411

Dec. 16, 2003, 12:42 PM

Count me in the "Barren but Proud" Club! My decision not to have kids really isn't a choice I made because riding takes up so much of my time, rather the older we got, the more my husband and I decided we really weren't cut out for kids. When we were married 7 years ago, we fully intended to have them but the big maternal (and in his case, paternal) urges never kicked in. I seem to be completely devoid of that instinct, unless it pertains to pets, where I have it in spades. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif And to be perfectly honest, and I hope no one takes offense at this, but we both find kids to be very annoying. I don't know if it is because so many parents don't seem concerned with teaching their kids proper manners or what, but it seems everywhere I go there is some kid screaming its head off or throwing a tantrum of some sort. No thanks.

Fortunately, we both have lots of neices and nephews in our families so the heat is off us, though for many years we felt like we had to justify our decision.

What gets me are the huge numbers of people who have kids and say they didn't want them at first either... if that is really true, why on earth would you get pregnant? My worst fear is I would have one and wake up one day and realize I had made a horrible mistake.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by mellsmom:
Kryswyn-

I think that the best thing to do is for all us childless adults to buy ajoining properties and have a self-care community barn as we slide gracefully into old age.
Shared labor, Shared expense, shared fun.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I had to laugh when I read that -- I have a bunch of childless friends and we have decided we will all live together when we are old and widowed and draw each others' eyebrows on in the morning.

Tom King

Dec. 16, 2003, 01:17 PM

I respect anyone's opinion who doesn't want children. It's just a shame that most people in this category are educated and those that have the most are uneducated.

Pocket Pony

Dec. 16, 2003, 01:36 PM

I soooo don't want kids. That's one of the reasons mr. batgirl and I got divorced. I would have much rather been divorced (which I now am) than have kids. No offense to those here who are parents, but there is nothing I see in having children that looks like fun to me, in fact, it looks like misery TO ME. For others who have that maternal instinct, great, have at it.

I get sick of hearing "you'll want them someday" or "you'll change your mind" or "it is different when they are your own". Nope, nope, nope. Don't insult me. I know what I want.

I have two dogs and a horse, and I know I could never have the mental energy to have a child. I completely understand post-partum depression, and I could see myself as a child-abusing monster if I had them because they annoy me so much.

There are few well-behaved children in this world. It seems like most parents these days want to be their child's friend, not parent, and so many kids aren't being disciplined and taught manners.

I should stop now...

So the answer is YES, I have chosen horses over children.

"Both rider and horse must enjoy the work. This is the essence of success" - Reiner Klimke

Flash44

Dec. 16, 2003, 01:43 PM

You can tickle children until they scream, you can't do that to horses.

I think I have the best of both worlds, one child. He's portable, makes me laugh, and potty trained. Plus he'll snuggle in bed with me on cold mornings after Mr. Flash goes to work.

I strongly feel that to be a good mother, you have to be a happy and fulfilled person yourself. That is one of the reasons I chose to only have one child - I work, and with 2 children, I would have little time left over for myself(horses). Maybe that sounds selfish, but I am very happy, and I feel that carries over into my relationship with my son.

Flash44

Dec. 16, 2003, 01:50 PM

The best reason to have a kid is so that you can get a cute little pony.

Lucassb

Dec. 16, 2003, 02:22 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by marta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lucassb:
When I was married, and people were rude enough to say "oh, you'll change your mind," I am afraid that I was often equally rude back... "well, if I do... I can have some. If you change YOUR mind... you are screwed!"

That usually put an end to the conversation.

**********

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif
yes, it's rude but i think i might use it anyway.

"It appears we are being transformed from an information
society to an informant society." Rep. Dennis Kucinich
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, of course... be my guest. Really, it can be soooooo amusing to watch!!!!

**********
"It is good to have an end to journey towards; but it is the journey that
matters, in the end."
-Ursula K. Le Guin

Frank B

Dec. 16, 2003, 02:28 PM

Yeah, Flash -- but you can always sell the pony! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

One of the many advantages of being born into a family with many aunts and uncles was the chance to compare each couple's problems and life-styles vis-a-vis the number of children they had -- which ranged from zero to many. My cousins have chosen to produce far fewer offspring, most selecting the 'zero' option.

None of us has ever expressed regret for our choices -- except the one that chose 'three' http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

Run the numbers on your choice before you commit! There are many financial web sites which offer guidance regarding your future financial obligations, one of which is: (http://www.kiplinger.com)

Reputable publications such 'Kiplinger Personal Finance', 'Forbes', and many others cost the same as most horse magazines. The information they contain can make a marked difference in one's future.

[This message was edited by Frank B on Dec. 16, 2003 at 05:41 PM.]

rhymeswithfizz

Dec. 16, 2003, 02:37 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by 411:
What gets me are the huge numbers of people who have kids and say they didn't want them at first either... if that is really true, why on earth would you get pregnant? My worst fear is I would have one and wake up one day and realize I had made a horrible mistake.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey now, I resemble that remark... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I'm due in February with our first. I was never very fond of kids, never felt strongly one way or another about having kids, and was enjoying my kid-less lifestyle just fine. Honestly, I would have been fine without ever having kids. It was my husband who really wanted kids, though he was really in no hurry. But when he passed the age of 30, I think he realized that there was only so much time left -- his biological clock was ticking!

Honestly, I really do think I might have been perfectly happy never having a child, dumping all of my income into my horses. But then one big thing happened that made me change my mind: Sully came up lame, horribly hobbling lame, and it took a year of heartbreak and vets and finally a neurectomy to get him pasture-sound. He was retired just as we were starting to get good and move up the levels. It really did break my heart... and I'm not sure if I ever want to get that serious about competing again. It's too darn easy to get your heart tied to your horse, too easy to have your goals and dreams squashed in an instant, too easy to suddenly have a void that you don't know how to fill.

I still have Sully, but I also got another horse, a darling young TB. But I don't have the drive with Gabe like I did with Sully. I don't have those long-term goals anymore. Perhaps I am too reluctant to get my heart broken again? Who knows. All I know is that I am perfectly happy to just go smell horsey smells, go for a hack, and I am perfectly thrilled when Gabe learns how to use his rear end in a trot-walk transition. I guess I'm slowing down in my old age. I can't imagine being horseless though, not ever. But it was only 6 months after I got Gabe that I decided I'd be ready for a child. I know that going through Sully's lameness was the driving force behind that change of heart.

As far as the childless people getting poo-pooed.... I think in the horse world it is the opposite. I was reluctant to tell my horsey friends that we were expecting, as much as I love them, only because I felt that the reaction would not be positive. (Most of them are not pro-kid.) Everyone else in the world I figured would be thrilled, but so many horsey people tend to look at it as just something else to keep you out of the saddle and away from shows. I'm looking at it as a good excuse to start pony-shopping... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

where are we going, and why am I in this hand basket?

Clydejumper

Dec. 16, 2003, 02:46 PM

I waited, because I sure as heck was not ready in my twenties and I wanted to hit the show trail heavily. I had a blast showing, got into my thirties and decided I wanted children. I agree with those of you who choose not to have children hats off to you. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Now I have decided to take the next five yrs off from showing and raise my family. It also makes it nice that hubby is also crazy about the horses and helps run the farm. My horses have always been my kids so I just added to the herd. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Flying Horse Feathers

Dancing Lawn

Dec. 16, 2003, 02:46 PM

I found this really great Christmas card, a couple of years ago. On the front, are two big, green monsters. One is saying to the other: You know, when you get right down to it, Christmas really is for kids.
On the inside, the other one says: Yeah, you're right. Too bad we ate them all at Hallowe'en!

It was interesting to note, that most of the guys at work (the ones with families) found it really offensive. The secretary, who also had kids, and some of the other women in the office, thought it was hilarious.

less hard work, more fine dining.
www.dancinglawnhorses.com (http://www.dancinglawnhorses.com)

If guys can do it, how hard can it be?

caballo_saltando

Dec. 16, 2003, 03:54 PM

Never wanted kids. Remember not wanting them when I was in kindergarten. I do see where they'd come in handy at times - here's a list of reasons I'd have a baby:

1. slave barn/farm labor
2. haul my butt to shows when I'm old and can't drive anymore
3.take care of my horses and pets when I die and/or am too old to do it myself

So I guess I DON'T fit into that category of people who really really want a kid - I have always known that I REALLY REALLY REALLY don't.

ESG

Dec. 16, 2003, 04:00 PM

I just described your "monstrous Christmas card" to my husband, and he laughed harder than I did. Wish I could get hold of a box of those; I think it's priceless! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

LuckyMe

Dec. 16, 2003, 06:54 PM

TCgelec.... how truly amazing of you to take your niece into your life.

I really love these threads, and this board. Its amazing how many differing opinions can be shared in such a respectful and accepting manner.

Growing up, I didn't think I'd ever want kids. Like many others here, I adore animals. I seem to seek out the ones that need the most support and I enjoy nursing them along and watching them grow and develop into happy, healthy beings. I guess I'm maternal in that sense, but I've always felt akward around babies and small children.

My sister is 32 and a single mom. She and the baby's father had a casual relationship and I think my sister, who has a successful career and has travelled the world, thought it was time to "do the mom thing." So she got pregnant. Sadly, her baby seems to be little more than the ultimate accessory. My heart breaks for her as she is carted around the world (literally!) with my sister, who is too wrapped up in her own drama to give her baby the emotional attention she needs.

Watching how unsuccessful my sister is at motherhood has made me realize that no one has any business having kids unless they can commit their life to them and fulfilling their needs.

And there's nothing wrong with choosing to NOT have kids. Its really ok to say, well, I like my lifestyle, I don't want to give it up. Really, more people should do it. Why have a baby just cause it's the thing you should do?

So I dunno what I'll do in the end. Some days, my biggest fear is not being able to have kids. Other days, I'm not sure I could cope with being a mom. And while I am barely 22, my hubby turns 30 this year, so unconciously I guess I feel some pressure to make a decision within the next few years...

Anyway.... very interesting thread, and some many great people on both sides of the issue.

SLW

Dec. 16, 2003, 06:59 PM

I just came in from putting a blanket on my 5 month old mini colt. I told my husband it was "just like trying to put a diaper on a 7 month old infant who was having a huge giggling fit."

When my oldest child was an infant I kept all her bath stuff in a very nice fancy bucket, just like you do for a horse. A "city" girlfriend was "concerned, she was thinking a pretty wicker basket would be more suitable. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

For me, having horses as a kid made me a better organized mom! As a Mom working w/ few little horses, having my own kids makes me a better horsewoman! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

SLW
"The horse stopped with a jerk, and the jerk fell off."

VWScully

Dec. 16, 2003, 08:08 PM

Here's a link to a really good article from a Buddhist magazine for anyone who thinks it's selfish to NOT want kids.

http://www.fwbo.org/articles/not_having_children.html

The emphasis in Buddhism is on self-lessness and ridding oneself of the illusion of a permanent ego, but you can take the example in the article of the 'spiritual life' and apply it to the 'horsey' life too http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Why is it that when my horse does something right, the judge happens to be looking the other way?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Finnegan

Dec. 16, 2003, 09:41 PM

I am in my mid-30's and still not a twinge of the ol' clock ticking. I am perfectly content in my life where I'm at. And I really have no baby urge, but feel that I had better get cracking if I ever want them as I'm getting old (or at least my eggs are!)

And it doesn't help that none, and I mean NONE, of my friends has children. People in 30's, 40's, 50's, 60's - none of them ever had kids. This is not very inspiring here people! I figure I should have one because that's what you do and I don't want to be an 80 year old woman spending Christmas with my cats, but with no one I know spitting any out I have no inspiration. I need a horsey mom role model that I can pattern myself after. I need proof that you can do the horsey thing, compete actively while raising a kid. At the moment I just don't see the logistics. Arg!

-----------------------
Finnegans Wake
1992
Irish Sport Horse x Hanoverian
16.1hh
bay

alabama3870

Dec. 17, 2003, 07:58 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by caballo_saltando:
Never wanted kids. Remember not wanting them when I was in kindergarten. I do see where they'd come in handy at times - here's a list of reasons I'd have a baby:

1. slave barn/farm labor
2. haul my butt to shows when I'm old and can't drive anymore
3.take care of my horses and pets when I die and/or am too old to do it myself

You could also add to that list;
4. someone to get you drinks from the bar "go get mummy a vodka/orange juice"
5. apparently limiltess excuses to "work from home", leave work early/arrive late due to sick kid, kids dr. appt, etc......

wendy

Dec. 17, 2003, 08:28 AM

how on earth can anyone think it is "selfish" to not have children, or feel guilty about not having any?

the world is serioulsy over-populated, so we certainly don't need more children. You should feel guilty about every child you create. Such a burden you have brought into the world.

Children cost a fortune to raise, and who do you think pays for most of that-- certainly not the parents, if my last school-tax bill is any indication.

Dec. 17, 2003, 08:35 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by wendy:
You should feel guilty about every child you create. Such a burden you have brought into the world.

Children cost a fortune to raise, and who do you think pays for most of that-- certainly not the parents, if my last school-tax bill is any indication.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whoa, whoa, whoa. That is quite a statement there! People who are living in poverty and totally surviving on government assistance most likely do not need to bring bunches of kids into the world, as they don't have the financial resources necessary. But in general we are talking about people who are financially and emotionally prepared... In that case, who are you to tell them not to have kids, if that is what they want and can support?

And I find it extremely hard to believe tax-payers foot "most" of the bill for kids. I bet there are quite a few parents willing to provide their own monthly bills to prove otherwise.

***
The hardest to learn was the least complicated.

Heather

Dec. 17, 2003, 08:37 AM

I have to laugh a bit at this, because I sat in a meeting about 2 months ago, where we were looking at demographic data from a survey of horse women, thet showed a tiny percentage of people ID'ing themselves as parents.

Every other person in the room was convinced it was a mistake--that either they hadn't understood the question (as in they are parents, but the kids are older and out of the house) or had had a hanging chad style misunderstaing of which box to check.

I was certain, given the fact that I know hardly any horse women with kids, that it was a correct %. Everyone else basically told me I was crazy and wrong and they dcided to toss that question out of the survey. I'm feelin a bit vindicated here, LOL.

I am 30 and childless and contented. I expect I will remain that way, but between age and physical problems, the only kid I could potentially have one would be of the adopted variety anyway, so I don't feel a big time rush. I have this odd dichotemy of knowing mostly horse woman, who are by and large childless (and most of them aren't married either) and coming from a big family of reproducers. SO I feel both sides of the pressue, LOL.

Merry

Dec. 17, 2003, 09:01 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by dancing lawn:
I found this really great Christmas card, a couple of years ago. On the front, are two big, green monsters. One is saying to the other: You know, when you get right down to it, Christmas really is for kids.
On the inside, the other one says: Yeah, you're right. Too bad we ate them all at Hallowe'en!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh cr*p! Where was that box of Christmas cards when I was shopping? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

caballo_saltando

Dec. 17, 2003, 09:14 AM

But to get back to the original poster's question about if anybody has made this decision. I'll tell you that I definitely have made that decision and consciously. Although I always knew I didn't want kids, when it got to the baby-makin years, I had to really think on it in a serious way.

When I thought about it I could not see how on earth I could hold down a full time job, a full time marriage, take care of a baby, AND do horses. And as irrational as it may be, I also resented the fact that I'd be the one who'd have to go through 9 months of pregnancy, and also have to do the birthing process, while the SO just got to have sex and sit back and wait for the baby to come and then hold it - not even have to produce it's food. I resented that I'd be the one who would have to give up my life and my body, which would mean giving up my horse (at least for a while). So if the hubbie was the one to have to get preggers and delivers, then maybe I'd have been somewhat OK with doing it - but just caving in to societal/familial pressures.

I also could not imagine how on earth I'd be able to ride competitvely, work full time, AND have a baby. I know some women who do it, but I don't know how. I know of at least one woman who has a full time nanny - that's how she does it. Well, that ain't part of my reality.

So yes, I did make a decision not to have children - or chose horses over kids. Maybe I'll regret it someday; but in 30+ years of living I've not wanted anything to do with 'em, so I don't imagine that'll change in 30 more years.

My sister has two babies - one is almost 12 mos, the other is almost 3 years. They are very cute kids, but when I talk to her and she is telling me about having to take the three year old here and there, dealing with diapers 24/7, and constantly having to feed them, etc, my decision not to have kids is re-confirmed every time. However, I completely relish the idea of taking my horses on "field trips," and taking care of them in general (though I still wouldn't mind having a kid around sometimes to help with stalls, LOL).

poltroon

Dec. 17, 2003, 12:11 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Finnegan:
I am in my mid-30's and still not a twinge of the ol' clock ticking. I am perfectly content in my life where I'm at. And I really have no baby urge, but feel that I had better get cracking if I ever want them as I'm getting old (or at least my eggs are!)

And it doesn't help that none, and I mean NONE, of my friends has children. People in 30's, 40's, 50's, 60's - none of them ever had kids. This is not very inspiring here people! I figure I _should_ have one because that's what you do and I don't want to be an 80 year old woman spending Christmas with my cats, but with no one I know spitting any out I have no inspiration. I need a horsey mom role model that I can pattern myself after. I need proof that you can do the horsey thing, compete actively while raising a kid. At the moment I just don't see the logistics. Arg!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can't do all at once unless you have enough money to pay people for the things you can't do. But there are lots of threads on how people do it.

I love my daughter. I take her everywhere - she is fortunately angelic out in public with strangers, even if she ran around the bedroom this morning screaming the Grandma Mambo song (from Bear in the Big Blue House) at 5:30am at the top of her lungs. But she has changed my life for both good and bad. I don't ride quite as often, my tack suffers, I haven't been to a movie in forever and we never eat out. On the other hand, I doubt that we'd have taken the plunge to buy a farm if it wasn't for her. (Reading Jean Slaughter Doty makes me all misty-eyed, thinking about riding around the countryside on a pony. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif)

BTW, we're aware that when she's a teenager she will be furious about living in the middle of nowhere with "nothing to do." http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I see having a kid as being analogous to being left at a horse show with no stall and no trailer and no place to tie while you wait for a ride at the end of the day. The first hour of grazing is really quite pleasant, and you're glad you went to the show. But after that, you're thinking of all the other things you need to do ... clean the tack, make dinner, do the laundry... etc and you'd like to use the potty! Where is that trailer anyway? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Having kids is pretty much the same.

Dec. 17, 2003, 12:51 PM

Oh my, I LOVE this thread!!

I like kids, and I'm an okay aunt, but as I near my 40th birthday, having been divorced for almost 8 years, with no children, I don't even want a boyfriend anymore because they complain that I'm either at the barn or at a horse show!!!

The new man in my life is tall (16.2+ and growing), gray, young (only 4), handsome, and always gives me a GREAT ride http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif And besides, he was a true champion last weekend (he moved up to the 3' in the pre-greens, and I was champion with him in the a/a hunters!).

So, what's the question???

Killian

Dec. 17, 2003, 01:09 PM

LH - I loved your post! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I think kids are fine, as long as they're not mine! Seriously, I'm a very good aunt, but I'm an EXCELLENT animal mother. There are some wonderful children & I love talking with them, especially about animals. (Someone's got to teach them...)

There's another woman at work like me & since we work with mostly women who have children, we feel like we have to keep our preference for animals under wraps - as if they'd think we we're abnormal or something. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Anyway, her friend fosters puppies for the SPCA, & often brings them here to work for a puppy break for all of us. Ahhhh. We get all googly-eyed & warm when we see the puppies & our "pet-ernal" instincts kick in, but we barely look up when someone brings a baby in.

One day, her friend had made a date to bring some puppies to visit. I was in my office & heard a commotion of oo's & ah's. I dropped what I was doing & rushed out to see the puppies, only to find myself smack in the middle of women cooing over, drat it!, someone's baby! Well, I couldn't just walk away. I had to do the expected oo-ing, then http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif made my exit as fast as possible. That was some dirty trick!

marta

Dec. 17, 2003, 01:24 PM

killian~
i can totally identify. i cringe in my office when i hear those oooh-aaah sounds - that could mean only one thing one of the employees brought their kids in. they, on the other hand, think i'm ridiculous b/c i express concern over a bird that flew into window pane in my office, or the ground hog grazing next to the road, or even the old pigeon who hangs out in front of the building.

"It appears we are being transformed from an information
society to an informant society." Rep. Dennis Kucinich

poltroon

Dec. 17, 2003, 01:24 PM

Ah, Killian, you fell for the old bait-n'-switch! That was definitely below the belt. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

eventamy

Dec. 17, 2003, 01:34 PM

As I type this I have my 3 month old daughter attached to my left boob. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Addi was a surprise, but I have to say is the coolest thing that's ever happened to me!
Having said that, I completely agree that those people who consciously choose not to have children should be respected a lot more then they are!
I think we're going to stop here at the one baby, she's cool, but man, I don't get to ride very much and she's expensive! My daycare costs more then my board! I could have another horse for what I pay!
By the way, are there any women who live in Vermont that would like to meet 2 very nice bachelors who do not want children (one lives in NH on the Vermont border)! They're having a hard time meeting women who do not want kids!

Dec. 17, 2003, 01:37 PM

Hey, spend time with what makes you happy. If you love children and really want to be a parent, you should be a parent. If you love tickling dogs and braiding a horse, do that.

As one gets older, you can fight the urge to do what is "expected" and invest in what truly makes you happy. Having a husband or children does not guarantee that you will not be "alone" in your old age, and I've been more alone with people in the same room than I've ever been with a couple of dogs in bed or picking out my horse's stall at a show.

You can always find a way to give your time to children, horses, whatever, regardless of your status and position in life. Find out what is best for you, and live it!!

Now, I have to go . . . I have to go see a horse about a man . . . http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

RugBug

Dec. 17, 2003, 01:51 PM

I tell my mother, who has finally stopped trying to talk me into wanting children (although I still think she has the "she'll change her mind" attitude), that I want to be a Stay-at-home-Mom, without the Mom part. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I've wanted children at times in the past, but I was still young and influenced a lot by others. Now I know what I want...and it's not young'uns. I've waited 32 years for my first horse, stopped riding for 12 of those years, and will not give it up unless I absolutely have to.

Eventamy: any of those guys willing to relocate to CA? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

My Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/user/slorugbug

Killian

Dec. 17, 2003, 01:52 PM

Marta -

That's one of the reasons I like this BB - you can talk about animals to your heart's content & no one thinks you're being excessive or freakish. And, I worry about the grazing groundhog, old pigeon, trapped caterpillar, etc., too!

My brother-in-law always jokes & says if I had to choose between saving his life & one of my animals, he knows where he stands...... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Right now, for the first time ever, we have a mouse in the house! Apparently he/she is fond of the little packets of Swiss Miss cocoa in the cabinet. As well as the burlap sack of basmati rice. (God, I hope it's only one!)

Anyway, I got on to him when I found little tiny terds in the cabinet. That sucks! I don't want to hurt him, but I don't want him having a poopfest in the cabinet. Now, he's becoming so bold & comfortable, he parades around the kitchen checking out the cat's bowl as we stare incredulously at him. He even started to walk over & greet my cat & dog! They could care less & he apparently thinks he's part of the family now. If he would use the litter pan, I don't think I'd mind.

I guess we'll have to put out some humane traps & release him at the end of the street by the fancy new McMansions....

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by marta:
killian~
i can totally identify. i cringe in my office when i hear those oooh-aaah sounds - that could mean only one thing one of the employees brought their kids in. they, on the other hand, think i'm ridiculous b/c i express concern over a bird that flew into window pane in my office, or the ground hog grazing next to the road, or even the old pigeon who hangs out in front of the building.

"It appears we are being transformed from an information
society to an informant society." Rep. Dennis Kucinich
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OlmosHeaven

Dec. 17, 2003, 02:02 PM

Mellsmom: Can I sign up? and I've got a bunch of childless female horsie friends who might be interested too. (This thread got me to thinking about how many childless female horsie friends I do have. It's interesting.)

Flash44: I have a couple of cats who will do that for me. Then again, there is the pony ... I started riding as an adult, so I never had a pony and never will. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Nancy!

Dec. 17, 2003, 02:05 PM

Childfree not by choice. I couldn't get pregnant. When people ask, I say "God decided all my babies would have 4 legs!". That is enough to stop anyone in their tracks. I'm now 42 and am glad I don't have kids other than my furkids. 1 dog, 1 dog at the rainbow bridge, and upwards of 75 horses (including the ones we've sold).

I do enjoy my newphew but work at a school and get enough kids during that time.

quote "I think I have the best of both worlds, one child. He's portable, makes me laugh, and potty trained. Plus he'll snuggle in bed with me on cold mornings after Mr. Flash goes to work."

Well, my doggie is portable, always makes me laugh, is potty trained and loves to snuggle in bed even with hubby there!

Nancy!

www.diamondrpaints.com (http://www.diamondrpaints.com)

Frank B

Dec. 17, 2003, 02:09 PM

Gee, thanks a lot, Killian! Now where'd I put the Windex?

Being new to COTH, the civility of this discussion is very heartening. Most others would be donning their asbestos underware and plasma torches by now! :lol

Keep it up!

Killian

Dec. 17, 2003, 02:27 PM

Welcome Frank B! COTH is a lot of fun, but watch out - you will quickly become addicted!

BTW, I don't get the Windex line. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Frank B:
Gee, thanks a lot, Killian! Now where'd I put the Windex?

Being new to COTH, the civility of this discussion is very heartening. Most others would be donning their asbestos underware and plasma torches by now! :lol

Keep it up!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Anyplace Farm

Dec. 17, 2003, 04:26 PM

I'm perfectly fertile, fit, love kids and have no intentions of having them.

Divorce and taking awhile to find the right man certainly delayed things for me. Now, I'm with a great man and we have absolutely no intentions of having children.

If it happens as a mistake that I get pregnant, fine, I'll follow thru with it but I am on birth control right now.

People tell me I'd be a great mom but I don't feel that is the point. Just because God gave you the ability to procreate doesn't mean you should and doesn't mean you have to. It is our choice.

When people ask me why I don't want them, I explain how I like to be able to pick up and go when I want. Plus, there'd be no way I could do what I do in the horse world and have a child as well. I'd be a wreck.

I also say, "I feel I should have a very strong desire to have children before I have them. When the desire to have children is stronger than my desire to own a diesel double cab dually, then I know it is time."

But, at my age, I'm just not thinkin' that'll happen. The truck, however, I can get that whenever I want!!

`````````````````````````````````````````
"I NOW INFORM YOU THAT YOU ARE TOO FAR FROM REALITY."
Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf, Iraqi Minister of Information

"Life ain't certain...ride your best horse first." Unknown

Finnegan

Dec. 17, 2003, 04:56 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by poltroon:
You can't do all at once unless you have enough money to pay people for the things you can't do. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was trying to come up with clever ways of "keeping" the baby at the barn while I ride. When I clean the stall & do general tack cleaning, feeding, etc I figured I just have a papoose thing that I'd just strap the little bugger in and wear the kid around. But when I was riding I was thinking of attaching one of those bouncy things to the roof of Finn's stall and sticking the kid in there, safely locked in his 24x24 pipe corral that is covered. Then I'd just cover the entire bouncy chair-thing in a mosquito mesh thing to keep the bugs off it. I thought it a brilliant idea. The kid just hangs there and bounces around in mid-air till it gets tired. Sleeps. And I come back in an hour and a half and strap it back in the papoose thing. I honestly can't see anything wrong with this, BUT my friends all say I can't do it. Child neglect or endangering or something. THIS is how far from reality I am when it comes to kids.

~Bev

-----------------------
Finnegans Wake
1992
Irish Sport Horse x Hanoverian
16.1hh
bay

Finnegan

Dec. 17, 2003, 05:02 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by eventamy:
By the way, are there any women who live in Vermont that would like to meet 2 very nice bachelors who do not want children (one lives in NH on the Vermont border)! They're having a hard time meeting women who do not want kids!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just send them to any barn!! Whenever a straight male walks onto property he is fair game for any of the women who may corner him. And if he's not into reproducing, even better!

~Bev

-----------------------
Finnegans Wake
1992
Irish Sport Horse x Hanoverian
16.1hh
bay

Anyplace Farm

Dec. 17, 2003, 05:20 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Finnegan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by poltroon:
You can't do all at once unless you have enough money to pay people for the things you can't do. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was trying to come up with clever ways of "keeping" the baby at the barn while I ride. When I clean the stall & do general tack cleaning, feeding, etc I figured I just have a papoose thing that I'd just strap the little bugger in and wear the kid around. But when I was riding I was thinking of attaching one of those bouncy things to the roof of Finn's stall and sticking the kid in there, safely locked in his 24x24 pipe corral that is covered. Then I'd just cover the entire bouncy chair-thing in a mosquito mesh thing to keep the bugs off it. I thought it a brilliant idea. The kid just hangs there and bounces around in mid-air till it gets tired. Sleeps. And I come back in an hour and a half and strap it back in the papoose thing. I honestly can't see anything wrong with this, BUT my friends all say I can't do it. Child neglect or endangering or something. THIS is how far from reality I am when it comes to kids.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Clearly, I'm really far from reality too because I read this and thought it was a FABULOUS idea. Reason number 1,232 on Why I Shouldn't Have a Child.

`````````````````````````````````````````
"I NOW INFORM YOU THAT YOU ARE TOO FAR FROM REALITY."
Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf, Iraqi Minister of Information

"Life ain't certain...ride your best horse first." Unknown

myhorse

Dec. 17, 2003, 05:26 PM

I have three kids.The first one went to the barn with me that was not busy.After the second it was too hard.I still have horses but do not get to ride much.My horses are in my back yard.

my precious

Dec. 17, 2003, 06:39 PM

Babies scare me to death; best friend from HS is still miffed I haven't asked to hold her baby. They always cry when I hold them, like they can smell fear. They say your own are different but who knows; it's a little late then, isn't it?

Besides, my cat is allergic to babies http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Tara

Dec. 17, 2003, 07:52 PM

I’m another one in the prefer being childless camp. I have absolutely no desire to have any children at all. My friends who have children have remarked how I’ll pay attention to their pets as opposed to their newborns or kids.

At work (public library) I’ve told pre-teens point blank that I am not going to be their babysitter, and they are required to act appropriately at the library. I hate it when adults think they want kids, yet cannot be bothered to take care of their own children after school nor provide a place for them to go afterwards. Kids need to be kids and the ability to socialize as a child with their peers before it is time for dinner, homework and bed. If you want kids, great...I don’t want your bored pent-up-all-day kids who are learning to loathe the librarian. But that’s another rant for a different forum.

I have a horse that I boarded 20 minutes away from my home and work. At home I have two cats and a dog (who celebrates her 20th birthday next week).

Granted, I don’t have a boyfriend. Nor have I found "Mr. Right." But I don’t think matrimony would change my mind on the kid issue. I’m currently very content with my lifestyle. I don’t have enough time in my life to get done everything I want to do in a day. I don’t think my easygoing nature would stay that way were I to be burdened with a child. I am very happy for people who have found their happiness. If that happiness involves a child, great. Mine involves my fuzzy animals, my embroidery, my books, my friends, and living my life as it is now. I’d even be content if that meant forever being without "Mr. Right." I’m certainly not holding my breath for him.

The only thing I would change would be to have my own property that includes room for my horse(s), barn, pasture, riding ring, access to trails...ya’ know, the fantasy of a good bit of people on this forum. Ah well.

Tara

[This message was edited by Tara on Dec. 18, 2003 at 06:52 AM.]

WendyWDS

Dec. 17, 2003, 09:16 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I honestly can't see anything wrong with this, BUT my friends all say I can't do it. Child neglect or endangering or something. THIS is how far from reality I am when it comes to kids.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

At the barn where I take lessons, there is a large chain link dog kennel, the kind with 6' or 8' sides and a "ceiling". First time I saw it, I did a double take-- it has a plastic play-kitchen set and toys inside. I haven't actually *seen* any kids inside it but it seems like a great idea to me!

I'm childfree by choice. My front door mat says, "Pets Welcome, Children Must Be On A Leash". It's fun to watch people who haven't been over before decide whether they're going to laugh or get offended. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Wendy in Chandler, AZ
http://www.pbase.com/wendywds

Millennium Wind

Dec. 17, 2003, 10:50 PM

I'm also part of the professional woman, childless, prefer my horse over children group. My husband and I both don't want children, nor do I feel the desire to have children. I would much rather spend time with my horse, and I worry as much about her as I would my child. I think some women are suppose to be mothers, I however am not one of them and it would be very unfair to the child. It is actually a relief to know that I am not the only one out there who would rather ride than have kids.

JRG

Dec. 18, 2003, 12:56 AM

Comming in late on this one, but count me in.

I am over 32 and made a the choice to have a tubaligation at 24. I have never regreted my choice.

To me, kids are a 24 hr. 7day a week commitment for life, If you are not prepared to live with that don't have them. Children deserve that kind of commitment. I made the choice that I feel I could live with.

I have had acquantances over the years that thought it was odd, and every once in a while someone will say "you don't have any children...." like I should be stoned for not having any. I am comfortable with my life choices.

shiloh

Dec. 18, 2003, 02:25 AM

I'm another one who knew at an early age that I absolutely did not want any kids. I cannot count the times I was told how "selfish" I was or that "I had animals and look how good I took care of them - I would be a great mother." (Er - I don't think the two necessarily equate.) I even had a relative tell me there was something mentally "wrong" with a woman who did not want children. Every doctor I talked to refused to let me have a hysterectomy - "Don't be silly," one told me. "You'll change your mind." Well, 20 yrs later and I still haven't changed my mind.

My joke is that yes, I DO have children - 5 furry four-footed ones. And they need me as much, if not more, than any human child.

CHJoker

Dec. 18, 2003, 02:59 AM

So nice to read all of your posts! I am in the "don't want kids" club! I love kids, I have a huge family, but my husband and I just don't feel the need! Perhaps one day we would consider adoption...but for now, my horse, husband, and job keep me very busy, and happy. Here in Switzerland, in some social circles, I cannot tell you how many times I have been asked..."So, when are you planning to have kids? Stop working? Sell the horse? " I would never dream of asking them when they will get a job and a life outside of their children, because these are perspective questions..and they have every right to do what makes them happy, but I wish they would extend the same courtesy to me http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif .... the good thing is, there are other women who feel the same way as I do, and I hang out with them!! In the same way that some women wonder how I could be happy sans children, I think....how could you live without a horse?? I would be miserable!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Dancing Lawn

Dec. 18, 2003, 03:13 AM

Killian, Put everything in glass jars. I went through this same thing, a number of years ago. Plastic doesn't work, Mouse will chew right through it. Or you can just give him/her a name. I don't know what the life-span of a mouse is, but the little thing sounds quite charming. And they are small, so they really don't get in the way.

Those two guys came come here to Ontario. But only if they know how to use a hammer, without hurting themselves. I already know enough useless men, a useful one or two would be quite a novelty!

less hard work, more fine dining.
www.dancinglawnhorses.com (http://www.dancinglawnhorses.com)

If guys can do it, how hard can it be?

ESG

Dec. 18, 2003, 04:55 AM

Useless men? You mean to say they abound in Canada as well? That's a relief; I thought it was just Europe, the US, and Russia. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Very fortunately for me, I got one of the "useful ones". Builds barns, rides horses, buys us property with barns and builds them as well, and thinks everything I do short of murder is wonderful (and murder might be wonderful also, depending on who I kill). Truly, I am blessed. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

payok

Dec. 18, 2003, 05:33 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nikkibaby27:
My mom says I'm selfish for not having kids. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My husband and I keep hearing people say this and it confuses us. Why on earth is it selfish for us to not have children? Because we're denying our parents grandchildren? It really irritates me.

My husband has never wanted children, and his mom always told him that he'd meet the right woman and she'd change his mind. Then he met me, and I didn't want children either. His mom doesn't like me much. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

We've been married two and a half years and are quite content with our life. Two horses, two dogs, four cats. I've never wanted children - I don't mind kids if they are around and not screaming or crying http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif but I like it best when they go home. I'm so sick of being told that I'll change my mind, asked when we're going to start a family, hearing hints whenever we are at family events, having people hand me their infants to hold. My family isn't bad, but my husband's family acts as though I'm just to naieve (sp?) to truly know what I want - and that what I truly want is to be a mother. Blech! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Sarah

Shiaway

Dec. 18, 2003, 06:37 AM

I have four children and I'm only 21. Jeff, Sol and Ling Ling. And Shiaway I guess is like my foster kid. They are definitly better than any child I would ever produce! And the best thing about having a cat and three horses as your children is that they never grow up and leave home so you get to have lots of love forever and always. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Liretta

Dec. 18, 2003, 07:05 AM

My whole life I said I would not have children because of my unhappy childhood, but at 26 I had my first and at 32 had my second, and got pregnant with both while using birth control. I have a boy and a girl and wouldn't trade them for anything, even horses. I had horses until my early twenties, took a 20 year sabbatical so to speak, then began taking lessons with my daughter when she was 8. We now own our own horse and someday hope to have another one.
I am glad God made the decision for me because I didn't realize how empty my life was without my kids. This is true love for me, along with my husband.

CHJoker

Dec. 18, 2003, 07:23 AM

Liretta, Good for You! I am glad you are so happy. Especially since, well, it doesn't sound like there was much choice involved on your part.

I had a perfectly happy childhood, as I am sure most of us did. I am glad that children filled your empty life, but I assure you, mine is very very full without them.

I am glad that you are so thrilled with your children, as there are plenty of women who have had unplanned pregnancies who are not so thrilled, and end up dumping those unfortunate children in the already overburdened social welfare system, or worse.

Additionally, I am very happy for you that God made the decision. I am sure that you will understand, however, that I (any many women, I sincerely hope) choose to make our own decisions, and carefully.

Beth

[This message was edited by bethkrois on Dec. 18, 2003 at 10:42 AM.]

[This message was edited by bethkrois on Dec. 18, 2003 at 10:43 AM.]

[This message was edited by bethkrois on Dec. 18, 2003 at 10:44 AM.]

[This message was edited by bethkrois on Dec. 18, 2003 at 10:53 AM.]

caffeinated

Dec. 18, 2003, 08:14 AM

Killian- you should catch the mouse and keep it as a pet- ten gallon aquariums work perfectly... shredded up tissue paper makes wonderful bedding.

heh. We used to keep them as pets when we caught them at college. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

_____________________________
"It takes a whole lot of testosterone to wear a beret and not look fruity"
**
formerly known as grog

ESG

Dec. 18, 2003, 08:23 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by payok:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nikkibaby27:
My mom says I'm selfish for not having kids. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My husband and I keep hearing people say this and it confuses us. Why on earth is it selfish for us to not have children? Because we're denying our parents grandchildren? It really irritates me.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here's my theory. Since they've (people with children) been through the mill and know what you'd have to sacrifice in order to have kids, they see it as selfish because you are getting to keep all the "extras" parents don't have. Increased disposable income, freedom, career advancement, all these things are severely compromised when one has children, because their needs and wants come first (or should).

I also think there's a jealousy factor. The parents look at the childless and think "I could have done that" or "I could have been or had this". Like with most people, we all are attracted to what we don't have, and it always looks better than what we do. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Just my theory.................... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

rosijet

Dec. 18, 2003, 08:48 AM

At last! Others who understand my complete non-interest in having children!

When I was a very young adult, I floored and horrified my mother by asking her at what age could I get fixed. She responded by telling me that no good doctor would allow me to do that since I would surely change my mind later. Mom-I am now in my mid thirties. Can I get fixed yet?

My hubby's brother from Iowa asked us early in our marriage when we were going to start our family (duh! Already had a dog and horse at that time) Hubby said he didn't know but maybe never. Brother-in-law responded with, "What else is there to do?" http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Have had lots of people say we should have kids because they would be good looking. Now THERE'S a good reason to have kids! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Almost lost my cookies this past summer when my brother and his wife, who have two young kids, were hit by lightning and was informed by my mom that I almost became an instant parent. What?!? Shouldn't they have discussed this with me before putting me in the will as guardian? I informed my brother that he will no longer partake in any activity unless cleared by me until his children are in their teens and can become useful citizens say by cleaning stalls, throwing hay, etc.

I applaud those who love children and want them. Knock yourselves out!

"Crazy is just another point of view" Sonia Dada

caffeinated

Dec. 18, 2003, 09:17 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by payok:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nikkibaby27:
My mom says I'm selfish for not having kids. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My husband and I keep hearing people say this and it confuses us. Why on earth is it selfish for us to not have children? Because we're denying our parents grandchildren? It really irritates me.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know but I think the bell started tolling for my boyfriend (currently separating) and I when we had a discussion about kids and future. When I said I absolutely did not ever want more than two kids he said he thought that was selfish. Uh, yeah. So selfish of me to not want to donate my womb to your misguided caveman cause to spread your seed all over the known universe. No thanks!

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

_____________________________
"It takes a whole lot of testosterone to wear a beret and not look fruity"
**
formerly known as grog

lauriep

Dec. 18, 2003, 09:19 AM

How did I miss this thread??

No kids for me, have never even considered it. Have never for a millisecond had a "Oh what a cute baby, maybe one day..."

I have always attributed it to my love of 4-legged critters and that any maternal instinct had been exhausted there.

Have NEVER regretted my decision...

Laurie

nhwr

Dec. 18, 2003, 09:58 AM

I think what people really mean when they say "You are selfish if you don't want kids" is that people who don't want kids are self centered. I don't mean this as a negative thing. I mean that some people are just happier when they are focused on their own interests and activities. That is fine.

I don't think it is jealousy that motivates people to say that. Having kids is a fabulous experience, you get so much more out of it than you give up. But if it is not something that interests you, why bother? I sometimes miss the ability I had to pursue whatever I wanted. But I don't regret having kids.

I look at life like going taking a vacation. Some people think it would be great to climb Mt Everest, some people could spend 2 weeks in the British Museum. Both choices are a great vacation, but both won't please everyone.

Killian

Dec. 18, 2003, 10:36 AM

Here, here - ESG!

And Dancing Lawn & caffeinated - have you 2 been talking? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Actually, I did keep a barn mouse for some time in an aquarium when I was a kid.

One day I heard some terrible squeaking & ran to find the barn cats had cornered a little mouse between some bales of hay. I somehow scooped him up into my hard hat, added some straw & grain & took him right home. He was very cute & seemed to only suffer a permanently crumpled ear. He loved toilet paper tubes! I had to set him free when he got better.

When I brought an injured chipmunk home, he was not as pleased or docile! I think I'll forego the pet mouse route this time, however. But he is awfully cute. Maybe he can stay through Christmas...

Oh, no! It happened again! A work friend just brought her newborn (child)to our dept. There I was, arms crossed & looking mightily uncomfortable as she bounced him up & down in front of me expectantly, & I made some inane small talk. Acck! But then she said he needed to be breastfed soon & that it could take up to an hour! Needless to say I did not offer my office... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

ESG

Dec. 18, 2003, 11:22 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Killian:
Here, here - ESG!

Oh, no! It happened again! A work friend just brought her newborn (child)to our dept. There I was, arms crossed & looking mightily uncomfortable as she bounced him up & down in front of me expectantly, & I made some inane small talk. Acck! But then she said he needed to be breastfed soon & that it could take up to an hour! Needless to say I did not offer my office... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

At least you were spared the embarassment of having a companion (recently mothered again) who decided that the bar of the Officer's Club was a great place to breast feed her latest whelp. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif Now before anyone gets up in arms about breast feeding, that isn't the point. The point is that it wasn't appropriate to breastfeed a child in full view of men not this woman's husband or child's father and others of us who could really live long and happy lives without witnessing it. Yes, she had a shawl wrapped around both she and whelp, but it wasn't like everyone didn't kmow what she was doing. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif When I expressed my dismay to other friends at this woman's behaviour, they were appalled that I thought it inappropriate. They said, "What could be more normal or natural than a woman feeding her child?". I replied "Urination and defecation are common to all humans, not just nursing mothers, and I don't want to see that, either." They were still pretty miffed with me. Can't imagine why................ http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Pixie Dust

Dec. 18, 2003, 12:08 PM

Well ESG, I'll have to say I disagree with your "point."

I don't have kids and it appears to be very common among horsie girls. It wasn't exactly a conscious decision, I always thought "maybe" but never really got around to it. I love kids and find them interesting and entertaining. But of course, I'm refering to pleasant kids. My friend's kids, my neices & nephew are all pretty much delightful. Also, never (or atleast I don't remember a time) has anyone ever said to me "when are you having kids" or made any sort of negative reference (selfish, etc.) to my being childless. What kind of people are you hanging out with? That is so rude! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde

littleum

Dec. 18, 2003, 12:16 PM

Finally.....people who understand I don't want children! PERIOD!

I am SO sick of being told 'It's different when they're your own' or 'you'll change your mind' I was a nanny when I was younger and I figured out pretty early that kids are NOT for me. My parents and inlaws have slowly given up nagging- my man and I have not changed our minds on it in 7 years, and it isn't about to change now.

Why? Purely selfish: I want horses, I was my own life, I don't want to be holding Little Bobby's hair back as he pukes. Are my reasons selfish? Sure they are. But at least I can admit that my motiviations arn't fear or what no- it's pure selifshness. I'd rather get flack for that then be one of those mothers who loves her kids but wouldn't have had them if she had it to do over again- and I think there are more parents like that out there then would care to admit it.

want2ride2

Dec. 18, 2003, 01:21 PM

Ok, after 7 pages! Count me in too. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

At 34, there are no children ever in my future, and thank goodness my husband agrees. I also think it is one reason he supports my desire to ride and have a horse, because he thinks I've "sacrificed" something. Shhhhh.... Don't tell. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

CHJoker

Dec. 18, 2003, 03:41 PM

"I think what people really mean when they say "You are selfish if you don't want kids" is that people who don't want kids are self centered. I don't mean this as a negative thing. I mean that some people are just happier when they are focused on their own interests and activities. That is fine.
[QUOTE]"

Hmmm...I think that ALL people are happier when they are focused" on their own interests and activities." How is being focused on your kids ANY different than being focused on work or on a horse? It is not called being "self centered". It is called being human.

Please, quit trying to imply that if you don't have children you are "selfish, self centered, scared, empty, missing something" or any other NEGATIVE term, no matter how sugar coated it is. Why can't you just say, like all of us childrenless and VERY HAPPY say to those of you that have children....Good for you. Its your life, more power to you. Not one of us has said how bad someone is for having children, so...why are the moms in the house so intent on pointing out how we are somehow misguided?

Finally, for me...I always wanted to be around horses and own horses. I NEVER had the desire to have a child. Why on earth would I force myself into children, any more than I would force a woman who wanted children all her life to own a horse, even though, for me, it is a wonderful experience. But please take off the rose colored glasses and realize that many women have children that they never wanted, and now are miserable, or worse, have killed or abused their children. Some I am sure had those children because of pressure or a feeling of no other choice. How sad for all involved.

What makes a woman happy and fulfulled is knowing what she wants, and finding it. Whatever that may be.

Beth

RugBug

Dec. 18, 2003, 04:10 PM

Conversation at lunch with co-workers today:

"I can recognize my child's cry from across any crowded room"

Of course I chimed in with, "I can recognize my horse's whinny, too!"

They didn't quite look at me like I had antennas and one big eye in the center of my head, but it was close. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Oh, and reason 459 why Rugbug shouldn't have children: I keep forgetting to pick up the trainer's kid and take her to the barn. Oops! And I'm not the type to forget things. I can have 67 things to do, not write them down on alist, and still do them all. But if it involves picking up children, my mind is an wasteland! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

My Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/user/slorugbug

Finnegan

Dec. 18, 2003, 04:30 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Pixie Dust:
Also, never (or atleast I don't remember a time) has anyone ever said to me "when are you having kids" or made any sort of negative reference (selfish, etc.) to my being childless. What kind of people are you hanging out with? That is so rude! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, you're lucky then because everyone (aunts, uncles, next door neighbors, fellow boarders, the plumber, the mailman, my contractor, I could go on for days!) have all at one time or another asked when we were going to have kids. My answer is always the same: Can't afford them! With having to keep up with board, vets, farriers, show fees, lessons, I can't really afford kids right now. And no one goes any further. They just seem to know better & shut up. But they do ask! Even people that barely know me ask. Ugh!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by nhwr:
I think what people really mean when they say "You are selfish if you don't want kids" is that people who don't want kids are self centered. I don't mean this as a negative thing. I mean that some people are just happier when they are focused on their own interests and activities. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely! It's all about me, me, me! This Christmas I want/need clippers & and a dressage saddle. Do you think I want to give that up for some stupid Elmo doll, new romper set, Garanimals, or whatever else a kid may need? There perhaps will be a day when I have all the horse stuff I need (ha!) & may need further fulfillment, but until that day comes bring on the Albion!!

~Bev

-----------------------
Finnegans Wake
1992
Irish Sport Horse x Hanoverian
16.1hh
bay

CanadianGolden

Dec. 18, 2003, 05:07 PM

I am 16. I don't think I ever want children. I love my animals very much; kids are just these ugly little things that run around, cause trouble, and positively eat money. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I don't mind nice kids around age 9ish, but little kids? No way. And yes, I'm very selfish-- I can't imagine giving up my time and energy and life to a child. Isn't it better to be selfish and not have a child than to be selfish and have one anyway? Then you just raise a child that's messed up because you didn't care for it properly-- I don't want that on my conscience!!

Samra

=Member of the Only Child Clique=
=Member of the Teen Clique=

*You mean there was more than one lobster present at the birth of Jesus?*

nhwr

Dec. 18, 2003, 05:33 PM

bethkrois,

Seems like maybe I touched a nerve with you http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I have actually said I think it is great that people who don't want kids pass on having them . I don't think it is bad to be self centered. We all are to some extent. We need to be for our own survival.

You ask "How is being focused on your kids ANY different than being focused on work or on a horse?" When you work, you get a paycheck. When you are focused on your horse, you are focused on something that does something for you. These things are vehicles for your satifaction and enrichment. You ride your horse because it is fun. You show your horse it gives you pleasure. Nothing wrong with that, IMO. That is why we own horses or it is why I own horses, anyway.

With kids, you spend a lot of time doing things that are of absolutely no benefit to yourself. That is the difference.

VWScully

Dec. 18, 2003, 07:36 PM

See this is precisely the kind of reply to which I was trying to address the article I posted. It is NOT selfish to *not* want kids!!!

Think about it; Why do you have kids in the first place? Because you WANT to procreate; to gain some sort of "immortality" in the form of your offspring, because you WANT someone to love, nourish and mould as you see fit, because you have the DESIRE to procreate! (At least we hope that people with kids WANT them; those who have them and don't want them - well, we won't go there right now http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif ).
Anyway, all those reasons point to the same thing as NOT having kids! It's the "will to live", *desire* to do what YOU think has to be done; whether that is to procreate or put your efforts into something else; they are all choices based on what you desire!

You also say that working and/or doing stuff for your horse is not selfless in any way. I disagree; of course you work for $$, but one would hope you would put 100% effort into your job and don't JUST do it for the $$; you do that cuz you WANT to do a GOOD job (well at least I do http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ), and I can think of LOTS of stuff I do for my horse that is of no benefit to me; I don't like staying up late at night to walk a colicy horse or soak an abcessed foot! I do those things cuz I am CARING for another living being; no different than if I was to care for a child.
It is no more or less 'selfless' than having and caring for children; it's just a DIFFERENT choice.

Why is it that when my horse does something right, the judge happens to be looking the other way?? ;

Shiaway

Dec. 18, 2003, 08:06 PM

<With kids, you spend a lot of time doing things that are of absolutely no benefit to yourself. That is the difference.>

You would have to prove to me that there is no benefit for you in order for me to understand and agree with you. But in fact there are many benefits for having children and being a parents and caring for the children.

-------
“With all due respect, unless you've got something bigger in your torpedo tubes, I'm not turning around." --Janeway

nhwr

Dec. 18, 2003, 08:53 PM

There is a difference between being self centered (neutral) and selfish (negative), IMO.

For everyone who works for a paycheck, I'd ask would you do it if you didn't get paid? Be honest now. We care for our horses because we love them, yes. I don't disagree with that, either. But when you walk a colicing horse, you are also caring for an asset; we are also taking care of it so we can play with it later. We benefit from having a toy in shape to play with. A horse is another living thing. But I don't give an animal's life the same status as a human's. Do you?

I didn't say there was no benefit to having children. I said that as a parent, you spend a lot of time doing things that are of no benefit to yourself. The benefits to having children are immeasurable and boundless, IMO. But that is just my opinion. I like many things that most people don't. How does it benefit me to volunteer at school, coach a soccer team, volunteer at a free clinic or spend a day at Disneyland? It does nothing for me directly but it makes the world a better place for my children. That is important to me. Want to make a horse happy - feed it more, ride it less. They will like that http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Go back and reread my previous posts on this thread. I really do support people not having children. Frankly when I see the way many people "take care" of their children, I wish they'd have been more honest with themselves about what they wanted out of life. I think it is a good thing to know who you are and what you want.

Showpony

Dec. 18, 2003, 08:53 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by caballo_saltando:

When I thought about it I could not see how on earth I could hold down a full time job, a full time marriage, take care of a baby, AND do horses. And as irrational as it may be, I also resented the fact that I'd be the one who'd have to go through 9 months of pregnancy, and also have to do the birthing process, while the SO just got to have sex and sit back and wait for the baby to come and then hold it - not even have to produce it's food. I resented that I'd be the one who would have to give up my life and my body, which would mean giving up my horse (at least for a while). So if the hubbie was the one to have to get preggers and delivers, then maybe I'd have been somewhat OK with doing it - but just caving in to societal/familial pressures.

I also could not imagine how on earth I'd be able to ride competitvely, work full time, AND have a baby. I know some women who do it, but I don't know how. I know of at least one woman who has a full time nanny - that's how she does it. Well, that ain't part of my reality.

So yes, I did make a decision not to have children - or chose horses over kids. Maybe I'll regret it someday; but in 30+ years of living I've not wanted anything to do with 'em, so I don't imagine that'll change in 30 more years.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is how I feel too! My SO of 10+ years wants lots of kids...easy for him to say.
I give up my job, income, and riding to get pregnant and give birth http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif while he continues on like nothing.

He did offer to stop riding too while I couldn't ride. Gee thanks, would never happen and he doesn't ride for a living, I do.

Then he said he would watch the kids for an hour a day while I rode..again wouldn't happen and like I would be happy ONLY riding an hour a day? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif Kids 23 hrs a day http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I learned the hard way, I will never give up my financial independance! And at 30+, my child bareing days are numbered!

So do we have a new clique forming? "Childfree and happeeee", "Footloose and childfree", any other suggestions?

~*Adult Pony Rider Clique*~
www.timberrunponies.com (http://www.timberrunponies.com)

Shiaway

Dec. 18, 2003, 09:02 PM

<But I don't give an animal's life the same status as a human's. Do you? >

To protect my emotional health I can't answer that.

nhwr

Dec. 18, 2003, 09:05 PM

showpony,

You hear alot about how terrible it feels to be pregnant. There are many women who feel bad with morning sickness etc. There are also women who feel great being pregnant. I was one of them. I never felt better in my life than during my 2nd pregnancy http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif I miss it!

Regarding <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
He did offer to stop riding too while I couldn't ride. Gee thanks, would never happen ... he said he would watch the kids for an hour a day while I rode..again wouldn't happen and like I would be happy ONLY riding an hour a day? Kids 23 hrs a day
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is not the children's fault if that is how things turn out. Who, in their right mind, would have children with someone who they couldn't be sure of? Why even seriously date someone like that?

Showpony

Dec. 18, 2003, 09:20 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by nhwr:
showpony,

Regarding <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
He did offer to stop riding too while I couldn't ride. Gee thanks, would never happen ... he said he would watch the kids for an hour a day while I rode..again wouldn't happen and like I would be happy ONLY riding an hour a day? Kids 23 hrs a day
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is not the children's fault if that is how things turn out. Who, in their right mind, would have children with someone who they couldn't be sure of? Why even seriously date someone like that?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because I don't want to have kids! And wouldn't with "someone like that"!

It's not being pregnant/giving birth per say, it's not being able to ride and enjoy horses like I live for! Horses are my life, 24/7, and I rather like it that way. Although I have to say I find the health risks involved with being pregnant and giving birth horrifying, I am a hypochondriac you know http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif! and hitting the high risk age group http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

~*Adult Pony Rider Clique*~
www.timberrunponies.com (http://www.timberrunponies.com)

nhwr

Dec. 18, 2003, 09:37 PM

My point is, showpony, if you wanted to have kids and it is that lack of support from your SO that is holding you back, maybe that bears some thought. I wouldn't want to build a life (with or without kids) with someone who I couldn't count on to make good on an offer that was important to me.

Doesn't sound like that is your reason, though http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[This message was edited by nhwr on Dec. 19, 2003 at 12:56 AM.]

Showpony

Dec. 18, 2003, 09:42 PM

You have a VERY valid point, but he isn't the reason I am not having kids. I have never had the urge in the least bit. I definitly missed out on the "maternal/baby" genes, but thats ok, EVERY other female in my whole family got them ALL!

~*Adult Pony Rider Clique*~
www.timberrunponies.com (http://www.timberrunponies.com)

faraway46

Dec. 18, 2003, 09:59 PM

I was very interested in this thread, because being 35, I'm encountering decision time http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif, and have read through every post. It has been very helpful and enlighting.
I have noticed some similarities:
1)That most "childfree" people fulfill their maternal/paternal instincts with pets, turning this into "pet-ernal instincts" (as posted by one BBer...very shrewd http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif)...a very valid instinct, I may say.
2)That all are very concious of how much time, money and effort involves caring for a living being, and thus not wanting to complicate their lives further with more 24/7/365 responsibilities, because a pet is also a no time, no rest responsibility (or do they get sick only during office hours...? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)
I may be wrong, but I jump to this conclusion:
Everybody wants to have someone/something to take care of and love; everybody wants something/someone to love them back intensely. Most of us, having horses and/or pets have that equation fullfilled, because taking care of my furry children is a 24/7/365 job, just like kids (they eat three times a day, I have to clean them at least twice a day, I teach 'em everyday, send them to school to learn with trainers, I spoil them, make the doc check on 'em, vac them, give them vitamins, and wake up rushing whenever the "babysitter"...ejem groom...thinks there might be a tummy ache in process, no matter what time it is, and I drive the vet crazy just like if he were a pediatrician looking at my child. The only difference with having my own child is that my pets don't sleep under the same roof with me.
As for loving us back intensely: who that has a pet can say that they don't receive infinite, unconditional love from our furry mates? Those big round expressive eyes say "I love you to death" without words.
I don't know about you guys, but I don't need much more. My furry kids give me all I need in life http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif!!
But I'm not throwing the child option away, since I have not met the parent yet to say he/she regrets having their child. Thgey are always saying what a joy it is. There must be a catch to this if so many smart people say it's great http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif!!!

shiloh

Dec. 19, 2003, 01:42 AM

Now THAT's a great answer! Very well said, Faraway.

Most people don't understand that my horse and my kitties mean as much to me as their child means to them.

CHJoker

Dec. 19, 2003, 02:32 AM

NHWR: Let's agree to disagree http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I am glad that you are so happy with your children. Honestly. But it is a bit presumptious to assume that the sole fact that a woman doesn't have children automatically makes one "self centered". To my knowledge, Mother Theresa never had children. Now, there's a self centered person if I ever saw one. Get my point?

LOL Faraway:

Really, though, although all the parents tell you that they don't regret having children...well, at that point, it is a little bit late to decide! If you had children and resented them...would you be screaming that from the rooftops? Doubt it. You would tell everyone, probably even INSIST to ease your own guilt, that children are a complete joy, and how happy you are. OF COURSE I am not saying that all moms feel this way! I am fairly certain that most moms are really happy to have children. Thank God!! But please, to say that children are a joy at all times? No way. Nothing is a joy all the time. Not even horses. But we make our choices, and we accept responsibility for them, at least, I do. And every responsibility has its joys! And sorrows. That's life. I just carefully consider what responsibilities I want to accept, especially radically life changing responsibilities.

There are people who always wanted children who couldn't have them and regret. There are people who had children that didn't want them and regret. There are people who regret, regardless of what they do, but my theory on that is because they didn't make decisions, and simply let life "happen" to them. I have found in my life, when I make a conscious choice, I do not regret it later. It is the things that I felt I did not have a choice in that I wonder about.

So, if you don't want children, and make a choice about that, GOOD FOR YOU.

If you want children, and make a choice about that, GOOD FOR YOU.

If you are unable to have children, or "God" or "the devil" or whatever other entity sounds appropriate made you have children, well, that could be a whole other topic, and I think the feelings might be different from the people who made choices regarding these matters.

But for most of us:
Let's not assume that everyone must make the same decision. Where's the fun in that?? The fact is, having children does not automatically qualify you as "selfless, giving, caring, etc", just as not having children is automatically "selfish, self centered,etc". Actually, I think most of us are a combination of all of these things. It doesn't make anyone better or worse.
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Beth

[This message was edited by bethkrois on Dec. 19, 2003 at 05:42 AM.]

[This message was edited by bethkrois on Dec. 19, 2003 at 05:57 AM.]

[This message was edited by bethkrois on Dec. 19, 2003 at 06:00 AM.]

ESG

Dec. 19, 2003, 04:49 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by bethkrois:
NHWR: Let's agree to disagree http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I am glad that you are so happy with your children. Honestly. But it is a bit presumptious to assume that the sole fact that a woman doesn't have children automatically makes one "self centered". But for most of us:
Let's not assume that everyone must make the same decision. Where's the fun in that?? The fact is, having children does not automatically qualify you as "selfless, giving, caring, etc", just as not having children is automatically "selfish, self centered,etc".

Funny, I didn't get that from nhwr's post(s) at all. She said numerous times that she's respectful of the choices of others. She's my friend, so I can vouch for the fact that she is. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Actually, I think most of us are a combination of all of these things. It doesn't make anyone better or worse.

I agree with you there. We're all selfish beings, admittedly or not. I think it stems from a rather important attribute called "self preservation" in its most primitive form, and has evolved into selfishness or self-centered-ness. Without "me first, you after", I doubt the human race would have done so well. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Beth
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

BelladonnaLily

Dec. 19, 2003, 05:13 AM

Mother Theresa devoted her life to God and humanity and this prevented from her from having a choice about having children. Not the same thing, IMO. Horses do not require celibacy. (And I'm sure Mother Theresa had very little time to ride http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif).

As far as self-centeredness goes, we all are to some extent. I've heard the argument many times that people that do not have children are "self-centered" AND/OR "selfish." I'll just stick to my earlier opinion that it's a life choice and one to be respected.

Pixie Dust

Dec. 19, 2003, 06:21 AM

Well, as Miss Manner says, people don't have children, they make statements. Children are an extension of their parents. People want to show off their children and be proud of their children. "Look what I created!" It is just as self centered as any other pursuit in my opinion. BUT, as I've said before, I've never had anyone give me grief for being childless. No one has ever called me self-centered for it. OH....and I can think of a number of things I do for the cats/dogs/horses that are of no benefit to ME. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde

my precious

Dec. 19, 2003, 06:26 AM

I have a kid. He has stripes, whiskers, and a long tail. He's cuter than my nephew, IMHO. But I digress. I don't want kids but sometimes I think about hosw when I'm old I might be lonely with no one to visit me, i.e. kids and grandkids. But after recently spending a month in rehab at an assisted living home, I can tell you that can't be counted on. One of the ladies announced she was adopting me as her granddaughter, because her own couldn't be bothered to visit. Another very sweet lady would talk every day about how her daughter was supposed to come but never showed up. My heart broke for them and I plan to visit them regularly because older people rock! Making this horse-related, my adoptive g-ma used to own a horse farm and as soon as I found that out we were kindred spirits.

caffeinated

Dec. 19, 2003, 06:28 AM

I think all human beings are inherently selfish. I think it is just as selfish to have kids as to pass on kids for horses (or other pursuits). Look at the rewards- many parents I know suffer all the sacrifices and hard work because the personal rewards are so great. The love they get from the child, the satisfaction at seeing their child grow into a valuable and self-sufficient human being... it all at some level makes the parent feel good. Though it often seems like sacrifice rather than selfishness, that love and success is at least somewhat self serving.

On the flip side for those of us who maybe don't want kids, other things are self serving.

I don't think either choice is selfless really- if there wasn't some personal reward, people wouldn't do it. Just the way we are I think. I have no problem being called selfish for my choices if the "other side" also admits some degree of selfishness... like my boyfriend, who said I was selfish, but all his reasons for having kids sounded remarkably self-serving to me. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Not that either thing is inherently bad. Life is short, do what makes you happy and keeps you "whole," whether it's having kids or collecting pets http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

_____________________________
"It takes a whole lot of testosterone to wear a beret and not look fruity"
**
formerly known as grog

Pixie Dust

Dec. 19, 2003, 06:43 AM

I totally agree decaf, and no matter what choices we make in life, we will always be missing out on somthing else. You can't be happy unless you can accept this fact.

The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde

nhwr

Dec. 19, 2003, 08:02 AM

I don't know how to say this in plainer language. Being self centered and being selfish are not the same thing! I have never said that people who decide not to have children are selfish. I don't believe that they are.

I think there are some real misunderstandings/mistatements in a couple of the posts above. First, many people (including a lot of parents) think that "children are an extension of their parents". Children are are not! They are born with personalities and dreams of their own. This is apparent from the first day of their lives. Parents who try to make their children extensions or reflections of themselves are engaging in hubris, IMO. You (and your children) are in for a bumpy road if that is your belief as a parent.

I would also argue that love is never self serving. If you give something to get something, yes that is self serving. The child or person you are involved with becomes an instrument of your need to achieve or attain something. That isn't love and isn't motivated by love.

And as I have said in almost every post on this thread, I think it is a good thing when people decide having kids is not for them.

caffeinated

Dec. 19, 2003, 08:15 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by nhwr:
I would also argue that love is never self serving. If you give something to get something, yes that is self serving. The child or person you are involved with becomes an instrument of your need to achieve or attain something. That isn't love and isn't motivated by love.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not arguing to anger you here... but some people the experience of love and loving something else is the ultimate rewarding experience. Even as "giving" as it is, isn't that still in some respect a bit self serving?

For some people "selflessness" is still selfish, in that part of the motivation is the satisfaction or fulfillment they receive.

I'm not saying selfishness is bad. I think it's a basic component of human character that we don't like to admit to most of the time. The word rubs people the wrong way but it's just a word. People get self-fulfillment in different ways, sometimes by getting, sometimes by giving

_____________________________
"It takes a whole lot of testosterone to wear a beret and not look fruity"
**
formerly known as grog

nhwr

Dec. 19, 2003, 09:09 AM

Hey caff,

I loff a good arguement http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif or at least an interesting debate!

You say
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> some people the experience of love and loving something else is the ultimate rewarding experience. Even as "giving" as it is, isn't that still in some respect a bit self serving? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree that it is true that love is the ultimate rewarding experience. Love is a gift. If you give someone a gift expecting something in return, it is not really a gift. It is an exchange. You can't "love" someone to make yourself feel good. That is not love, that is self indulgence, IMO. It is all about the motivation.

caffeinated

Dec. 19, 2003, 09:12 AM

But how many people give love and don't get some sort of self satisfaction out of it?

Even if the conscious "motivation" to love to get something doesn't enter into the picture, that reward is still there. If it wasn't somehow fulfilling, would people love? I certainly don't think, "I'm only going to love this person because it makes me feel good"- but you certainly *do* feel good when you give so much of yourself... even without the conscious "trying to get something out of it" there's still a motivating factor there in the personal satisfaction

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

_____________________________
"It takes a whole lot of testosterone to wear a beret and not look fruity"
**
formerly known as grog

Pixie Dust

Dec. 19, 2003, 09:13 AM

I understand what decaf is talking about, people inherently do everything to ultimately please themselves (even Mother Theresa.) But I think love is different. It can be overwhelming and you have no control. Not something you "do".

The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde

Pixie Dust

Dec. 19, 2003, 09:16 AM

Like, the closest I ever came to a "mother's love" was when my baby brother was born. I felt this overwhelming love for him and I wanted him to be happy and I wanted to protect him from everything. It wasn't something I was "doing", but the way I felt. I couldn't control it.

Now, he's just a big hairy freak! (I'm kidding of course! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif) Well, kind of. I still loff him.

OK...why do I keep calling caffinated decaf???? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde

Killian

Dec. 19, 2003, 09:16 AM

This has developed into a very interesting thread, with many opinions on a very emotional topic.

(BTW, there's a new thread on Off Course talking about having kids & horses).

I try to have an open mind, but of course we all have our own opinions & experiences. It's great to be able to share them among ourselves.

In the "final analysis", I'm just so grateful for the folks out there who want & love their children - whether they be human or animal.

It's heartbreaking to think about the number of humans and animals in the world who are unwanted, unloved, and even abused and killed.

(And yay! for the person who "adopted" the senior folk! We'll all be there someday....)

nhwr

Dec. 19, 2003, 09:18 AM

There are things in life that can't be attained by pursuing them, IMO. You can't make yourself happy or find happiness, if you try, in my experience. Happiness is the byproduct or the fallout from other things, in my experience. I think the extreme pleasure that comes from loving someone is like that too.

Pixie Dust

Dec. 19, 2003, 09:20 AM

Exactly!

Killian

Dec. 19, 2003, 09:52 AM

I love these thoughtful discussions! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

For the record, since I happened to mention my work friend needing to breast feed, she wasn't asking to do it in my office & I didn't offer - she wanted to get home because she knew it would take him an hour or more to do it. (I was amazed at this, knowing nothing about it.) I wouldn't care if we were hanging out at her house or in a restaurant & she did it, but we both knew it wouldn't work in my office! Another co-worker (not a friend)came to show off her baby & decided to "hang out" in my office & breast feed. The kid was great - I just couldn't stand her gossiping on & on. You'd feel the same if you worked with her. I could care less if someone breastfeeds in public.

I am a librarian & I plan & create children's & baby story times & materials every day. Kids love me & I like kids! I write (& read!)children's books, I watch cartoons, I play with toys, & love to look at children's shoes in the store (so cute).

The interesting thing is that I don't have any obvious maternal feelings, but I definitely have (apparently I coined this word) "pet-ernal" feelings.

I enjoy people of all kinds (even if they're stinkers) & animals of all kinds (even if they're stinkers!). I simply adjust to who I'm playing with at the time. Life's so much more fun that way!

(Oh, P.S. - I better mention that I do not like bad & evil people who are cruel & heinous to any living creature. Phew! Gotta cover the bases...) http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Pocket Pony

Dec. 19, 2003, 09:54 AM

I place just as much value on my pet's lives as I do those of my human friends and family members. In fact, I prefer the company of animals to that of most people.

I don't think I'm selfish because I don't want kids. I think a lot of people are selfish becuase they want them...

So, for those of you who have kids, WHY? Why did you want them?

I'm not trying to be smug or facetious, I just really want to know...

"Both rider and horse must enjoy the work. This is the essence of success" - Reiner Klimke

nhwr

Dec. 19, 2003, 10:06 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
I place just as much value on my pet's lives as I do those of my human friends and family members. In fact, I prefer the company of animals to that of most people. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that is sad if you really feel that way.

I wanted to have kids because I liked kids. I grew up in a family of 10 kids, I was the oldest girl. I did tons of childcare, lol. I was burnt out for a while but I still liked children. I honestly had no concept of what it was really like to have children though.

Killian

Dec. 19, 2003, 10:08 AM

I don't think it's sad - it's just different. It takes all kinds. Thank goodness.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by nhwr:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
I place just as much value on my pet's lives as I do those of my human friends and family members. In fact, I prefer the company of animals to that of most people. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that is sad if you really feel that way.

I wanted to have kids because I liked kids. I grew up in a family of 10 kids, I was the oldest girl. I did tons of childcare, lol. I was burnt out for a while but I still liked children. I honestly had no concept of what it was really like to have children though.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jaguar

Dec. 19, 2003, 10:28 AM

"With kids, you spend a lot of time doing things that are of absolutely no benefit to yourself. That is the difference."

NHWR- sorry i dont agree with that. I know this thread has been great thus far in not getting up in arms about issues. And while I think it is wonderful that people are making informed decisions about their futures, I do not agree with that post.

Personally, I want children and think that mabey 1 or 2 would enrich my life. However, that is not the point. The point is that, like horses, passions, drives etc in ones life (whatever they may be) enrich your life so do children (for some) http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif. Perhaps the horse or fixing up fancy cars, etc...are just as fulfilling as a child for some. However, when you have children, sure you spend time doing things for them, but in the end it does benefit you http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif.

Take horses for example. You ride a greenie. It has no idea of how to jump. You teach it, you feed it well, and have some professional lessons if needed. You help it grow up, you get to a show, and watch it do well (jumping or whatnot) or show it yourself and it does well. You are proud of it. However, one could say that the prep for this show was of absolutely no benefit to yourself. But you would be able to tell them otherwise.

With a child, you have it. You nurture teach and care for it. You constantly love it, and make sure it gets an education. It goes into "training" if you will for adulthood. You watch it get a job, get married, or whatever other milestone it achieves and you are proud of it. Perhaps each of the diapers you changed, or lessons you drove that child to were of "no direct benefit to yourself". However, like the horse person who beams with joy over the success (however small or large) of their horse, so to is a proud parent.

All im trying to say is that the above quote, although im sure it was not meant to come out that way, sounded quite ignorant. While I think it is awesome that some people become parents (the right people of course), it is equally as awesome, to acknowledge the fact that you dont think you could raise a child properly. Perhaps its not even that, we have heard many testaments in this thread. Whatever the reason may be, I truly believe everyone is made able or not able to naturally have children. We are also given the chance to have or not have children (be it naturally or adopting). If you can give your love to something else, why should you be judged for that. Everyone is different, and everyone should be allowed to fulfill their own lives.

"I hope you will grow up to be gentle and good, and never learn bad ways, do your work with good will, lift your feet up well when you trot, and never bite or kick even in play."
-Duchess, Black Beauty, Anna Sewell

USgrandprix

Dec. 19, 2003, 11:00 AM

I'm still in the "undecided" group.

I always just assumed that I would get married/have 2.5 kids, because that's just what people DO.... right??

It's not that I even like kids that much, I usually prefer animals to kids to tell you the truth. Yes, I do get a nice warm fuzzy feeling when my 3 year old niece does something adorable... but I'm also just as happy to hand her over to her Mom when it's time for her to go home.

So yes, maybe I will have kids... if (and that's a BIG if)I feel good about the situation. If I'm with the right man, in a (reasonably)good financial situation, and I'm ready to dedicate my life to a little pooping, puking, screaming bundle of joy. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif I'm never going to decide to have kids because anyone else thinks it's a good idea, and I don't think I would do a child any favours by doing that either.

Right now I'm happy with my 3 little furry, whiskered "kids"! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

------------------------------
I'm an angel, honest! The horns are just there to keep the halo straight. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Pocket Pony

Dec. 19, 2003, 11:04 AM

I think it is sad that there are people out there who don't place value on the lives of animals.

I find people to be disappointing - perhaps my standards are too high?

Aside from spending time with my friends (who I do like, but I choose them very carefully for their integrity), I find spending time with other people quite tedious.

I am an introvert - I know that about myself. But why does that make my life sad? I am quite happy, actually.

"Both rider and horse must enjoy the work. This is the essence of success" - Reiner Klimke

caffeinated

Dec. 19, 2003, 11:10 AM

batgirl, I'm kind of the same way. People that I genuinely like are few and far between. Which means I don't have a large social group, but a few very very close best friends I'd catch a bullet for...

_____________________________
"It takes a whole lot of testosterone to wear a beret and not look fruity"
**
formerly known as grog

nhwr

Dec. 19, 2003, 11:21 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> All im trying to say is that the above quote, although im sure it was not meant to come out that way, sounded quite ignorant. While I think it is awesome that some people become parents (the right people of course), it is equally as awesome, to acknowledge the fact that you dont think you could raise a child properly. Perhaps its not even that, we have heard many testaments in this thread. Whatever the reason may be, I truly believe everyone is made able or not able to naturally have children. We are also given the chance to have or not have children (be it naturally or adopting). If you can give your love to something else, why should you be judged for that. Everyone is different, and everyone should be allowed to fulfill their own lives. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Horses and other animals are essentially instruments for our own pleasure. When we are "proud" or impressed with an animal's accomplishment ... well it isn't like children. Animals don't learn much on their own, don't develop their own talents. We like to think they "love" us back but it is not the same as interacting with a person. The idea that you can even equate an interest in fancy cars or an animal with a human relationship is telling. It is not that these things are of no value, it is that they aren't of the same value.

People have much more depth and complications than animals do. You have to risk a lot more to deal with people, but there is a lot more to be gained. They lie, steal and cheat. They love, create and inspire.

I do think it is sad to live in a world full of people who you find tedious, for the most part. I don't think standards have much to do with it.

caffeinated

Dec. 19, 2003, 11:28 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by nhwr:
Horses and other animals are essentially instruments for our own pleasure. When we are "proud" or impressed with an animal's accomplishment ... well it isn't like children. Animals don't learn much on their own, don't develop their own talents. We like to think they "love" us back but it is not the same as interacting with a person. The idea that you can even equate an interest in fancy cars or an animal with a human relationship is telling. It is not that these things are of _no_ value, it is that they aren't of the _same _ value.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

they aren't of the same value to *you*

Doesn't mean it's "sad" for someone else to have different values in that department

_____________________________
"It takes a whole lot of testosterone to wear a beret and not look fruity"
**
formerly known as grog

nhwr

Dec. 19, 2003, 11:30 AM

I guess I am just astounded that some people would value an animal over a person. I do find that incredibly sad. Is that really what you are saying?

Pixie Dust

Dec. 19, 2003, 11:37 AM

Well, I see people who place equal (or greater) value on their *pets* but not animals. I would think that anyone who values animals as much as people would be vegan.

Yes, and thank goodness for our differences. If everyone wanted the same thing, we'd be in a pickle.

The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde

PiedPiper

Dec. 19, 2003, 11:53 AM

To play devil's advocate on what nhwr was saying,
Well animals never kill for pleasure, humans do. Animals don't kill and waste, humans do. Animals do not destroy the world they live it, humans do. To be perfectly honest I would rather be around animals than humans.
To follow Pixie Dust, I am a vegatarian as well though not a vegan. I do eat dairy and free range eggs.

I am married but at 26 not ready for kids yet if ever. Though I guess what I understand less is the need that people have to have to have their own kids instead of adopting.

I think having kids is a thankless and wonderful job but does not make anyone more or less of a person for it. I do think that mothers don't get the respect that they should for what they have to go through. I guess if I was male I would be more apt to just go ahead and have kids.

Grab mane and kick on!

Pixie Dust

Dec. 19, 2003, 11:59 AM

I used to think that about animals, but saw footage of killer whales toying with baby seals. About the cruelest thing I've ever seen. Oh, but I guess they ate the seals in the end. They were certainly having fun though.

I'm glad to hear you make an effort PP. I wonder at the logic of treating a dog like a person and a pig like lunch yet claiming to be an animal lover or to value animals as much as humans.

The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde

caffeinated

Dec. 19, 2003, 11:59 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by nhwr:
I guess I am just astounded that some people would value an animal over a person. I do find that incredibly sad. Is that really what you are saying?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just that in this day and age, everything is pretty relative. There's no real value in anything besides what we as individuals give it for ourselves.

The reason I'm playing DA here is because i've heard a similar argument in the context of religion. I've had people "feel sorry for me" because I don't believe in any religion and have my own system. They think something is missing in my life and I can't possibly be *truly* happy or fulfilled. But the truth is I feel contended and fulfilled because of what I believe. It fits for me and holds great value, even though there's a whole lot of people who think it's perfectly batty.

So while it may be odd, unusual, or unthinkable for you or I to understand somebody valuing animals over people, that doesn't mean it's "sad" because for that person it's valid and fulfilling.

I've always been kind of relativistic though, not a big believer in absolutes. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

_____________________________
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**
formerly known as grog

caffeinated

Dec. 19, 2003, 12:00 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Pixie Dust:
I used to think that about animals, but saw footage of killer whales toying with baby seals. About the cruelest thing I've ever seen. Oh, but I guess they ate the seals in the end. They were certainly having fun though.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've also seen that- though in some footage I saw, they ate several baby seals after playing, then gently nudged one back up onto shore.

weird

_____________________________
"It takes a whole lot of testosterone to wear a beret and not look fruity"
**
formerly known as grog

Velvet

Dec. 19, 2003, 12:03 PM

I was once told by a guy who is in MENSA (and thus thinks very highly of himself, well at least highly enough to tell everyone he's a member) that I was VERY selfish for not having children.

Um, hello? How altruistic is it to HAVE children? What's the motivation, buddy? I've never wanted to put my body through that, nor a child. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Hey, if I want to have kids someday, with someone (I'd never choose to be a single parent), I'll adopt. There are plenty of kids out there needing a home. Who wants to work that hard to have a child? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I love my animals. I'm meant to have animals. If I'd ever become accidentally pregnant, I would have paid the piper and had it and then dealt with the aftermath. Now, I really can't see it happening and don't want it to. And again, if an accident happened, I'd take responsibility for it and I'm sure I'd love the kid after I recovered from the pregnancy, delivery, sleepless nights, doctor and school bills--and the horse I'd have to buy for them. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

I never felt a need for kids and don't feel like I'm missing out at all. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

But I've never felt I had to choose between horses and children. So, maybe it's different for others. I just never wanted to pursue having children, whereas I always wanted to pursue my riding career--which very obviously includes horses!

I can only conclude that I'm paying off karma at a vastly accelerated rate.

nhwr

Dec. 19, 2003, 12:49 PM

Okay you guys. I am a stickler for precise communication. I said I find it is sad to value an animal more than people. I think it would be sad to live on a planet full of people and be so disconnected from mankind. That doesn't you are living a "sad" and sorry existance.

To address PP's issues.

animals never kill for pleasure - ever see a well fed cat toy with a mouse?

Animals don't kill and waste - scavengers would have no place in the food chain, if this were really the case

Animals do not destroy the world they live it - they sure do and they make no attempt to undo the damage they create

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Just that in this day and age, everything is pretty relative. There's no real value in anything besides what we as individuals give it for ourselves. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

caff,

all I can say it I really disagree with that. I think it is real hubris to say if we don't value something, it has no value. That is part of the disconnect from mankind that I am refering to. If we as a society do not value clean air, it still has value. When the Taliban destroyed those ancient buddhas, that was OK? After all, they have no value in Islam. There a infinite examples in everyday life why this is incorrect.

breezymeadow

Dec. 19, 2003, 12:56 PM

Oh Velvet - MENSA. Don't get me started. I personally know 2 people who constantly tout that they are "members", & both of them are dumber than a box of hammers. Give me "street smarts" every time - not being able to solve "puzzles". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

My body is a temple - unfortunately, it's a "fixer-upper".

caffeinated

Dec. 19, 2003, 01:02 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by nhwr:
all I can say it I really disagree with that. I think it is real hubris to say if we don't value something, it has no value. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

that's fine http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I'm just thinking that how we value things is different for each of us. Sure, things have their intrinsic value. But how I feel about something is up to my definition of it. Like- what is the value of a horse? As a living creature it has some intrinsic value to be sure, but other than that? To me, it's a companion and friend. To someone else, it's food. Just because someone else values it as food doesn't change how highly I value it, and it doesn't change any intrinsic value. And it's not indicative of a basic human disconnect that someone else defines something differently from the way I might.

And the buddha statues- I valued those as historical monuments. Others valued them as religious symbols. Obviously the taliban didn't value them as anything. What was the intrinsic value of the buddhas? They were sculptured rock, really. What value and meaning they held was different to different people. And though that may indicate "disconnect" to you and sadness at the state of the world- for me it's just part of the human condition.

edited to add: at this point I'm arguing just to argue more than anything, so feel free not to take me too seriously http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I just haven't exercised my brain much in recent times. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

_____________________________
"It takes a whole lot of testosterone to wear a beret and not look fruity"
**
formerly known as grog

[This message was edited by caffeinated on Dec. 19, 2003 at 04:11 PM.]

Velvet

Dec. 19, 2003, 01:04 PM

Breezymeadow,

It does seem that MENSA and being dysfunctional (on a social and other levels) go together more often than not. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I feel for his child. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I can only conclude that I'm paying off karma at a vastly accelerated rate.

mwalshe

Dec. 19, 2003, 01:18 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by PiedPiper:
To play devil's advocate on what nhwr was saying,
Well animals never kill for pleasure, humans do. Animals don't kill and waste, humans do. Animals do not destroy the world they live it, humans do. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Lol, it's nice that you love animals so much but none of that is true. Animals do all of those things and so do we because we ARE animals. The reason we feel "pet-ernal" (nice one btw http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) is that we are pre-programmed to tend to smaller, juvenile looking things like us. We can't help it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif All you pro-animal people would probably make wonderful parents if you had to.

Domestic animals generally retain their juvenile-like physical traits throughout life and it makes us bond that more strongly to them. Because we DO think of them as sort-of "children". We fell responsible for them.

Having said that, I think if push comes to shove, most people will value human life over animal. Again, it's just instinct. This whole arguement is not based on cold reasoning at all- it's based on feelings that most of us cannot help from feeling and patterns of behaviour we instinctively act out.

Killian

Dec. 19, 2003, 01:44 PM

MadCat -

Very nicely said. If we were to look at this argument more anthropologically & less anthropomorphically, we might make different sense of it. But we can't help it - we're all animals! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

caffeinated

Dec. 19, 2003, 01:58 PM

grrrrr, baby!

ok... have fun with this thread guys... going home to start packing and moving to the new apartment

_____________________________
"It takes a whole lot of testosterone to wear a beret and not look fruity"
**
formerly known as grog

Killian

Dec. 19, 2003, 02:08 PM

Hey Caff -

Good luck with the move. Thanks for contributing today! It was like a spirited ride through the country! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Merry

Dec. 19, 2003, 06:42 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Velvet:
It does seem that MENSA and being dysfunctional (on a social and other levels) go together more often than not.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll gladly stand up and prove your theory. For years I was a member of MENSA. And we all know (don't we), how dysfunctional I am. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dear Santa: All I want for Christmas is a pony-riding lawn gnome. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sadsmile.gif

faraway46

Dec. 19, 2003, 10:38 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by batgirl:
I think it is sad that there are people out there who don't place value on the lives of animals.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think Platon said:
"The level of civilization of a society can be measured by the amount of respect they show towards other living beings".
Through the years I have found this to be so true..... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

PepTalk

Dec. 20, 2003, 12:21 PM

I don't like humans. Period. I can tolerate being around them for only so long before I have a real desire to put a peice of duct tape on their mouths.

I feel the same way about kids. When I was working in retail last year during the hoilday season, there were PLENTY of times I would have LOVED to put a piece of duct tape on a kid's month because they wouldn't stop crying, throwing a temper tatrum or saying, "Mommy, mommy, mommy!" over and over again. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif It drove me CRAZY and I left that job sortly thereafter.

Besides, I have a LOT of health problems on both sides of my family that I wouldn't want a kid to have to go through. So thanks, but no thanks, I'd rather pass on kids. My only kids will be of the four-footed variety: Equine, Feline or Canine, ANYTIME! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Jaguar

Dec. 20, 2003, 12:38 PM

NHWR -
Perhaps I didnt properly make my point. I am not trying to say that horses or animals or a love of fancy cars are the same as children. They are not. But for some, owning a horse or collecting and fixing up fancy cars is a perfectly fulfilling way to live out life. For some, it is children. Ask any die-hard horse lover, and she/he will tell you that their horse is like their baby. Whether or not you want to tell them that that love is not the same as the love you give a child is not really your place. For them, that might be the deepest love they will give anything living. Which is what I would expect any responsible parent to give to their child.

Im just trying to say that those who choose not to have children can still give love to other aspects in their life. Sure children are different from animals or passions such as cars. I would be foolish for trying to prove otherwise. However, children do not learn proper ways of living very well on their own. Domesticated horses, in the wrong hands will learn ill manners on their own. Similar yes, the same no.

I have never said they are the same. Just that they are the same for different people. Some people will never give their heart entirely to a human being child. But those same people will also give their hearts entirely to an equine beast for example.

You mentioned that people have much more depth than animals, and that from dealing with humans you have alot more to gain. I dont agree with this. I do agree that there is more "depth" to humans, but not that you have alot more to gain. Can you really say that you have more to gain if you are a terrible parent who abuses their child.......or worse simply neglects a child wanting love? Even if you are a fabulous parent, how can you say that parenting a child will give that person more fulfillment and more "gain" in life, than someone who parents a horse or a dog? For some people child is not a reality, or not even a faint desire. For those people, horses and dogs (insert animal of choice) are their lives. Those animals will shape their lives, teach them things that perhaps human parents cannot ever experience (not saying this for everyone just for some).

Animal love and nurturing and human love and nurturing are different. I agree. But we all started (if you believe this evolution story) from apes, an animal. How can you say that they are completely different. Mabey I have just had too many fabulous animals in my life. Mabey I have found their companionship more true and teaching than some of my human relationships (not all http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ). Perhaps thats why I feel the way I do. But hopefully im being a little more clear than before......JMHO

"I hope you will grow up to be gentle and good, and never learn bad ways, do your work with good will, lift your feet up well when you trot, and never bite or kick even in play."
-Duchess, Black Beauty, Anna Sewell

Jaguar

Dec. 20, 2003, 12:42 PM

pixie dust - well said!
There is a definate difference from animals to pets. I believe you have made an important distinction. Pets can be just as valuable as people, its all in their owners or caregivers eyes and heart. I know you may not agree with this NHWR, but its true. I would be willing that alot more animals would be willing to love a kind hand and heart, than alot of hardened people. How can you say this is a sad thing? I think its beautiful, and shows the depth and love you can recieve if you are open to it from a "pet". http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

"I hope you will grow up to be gentle and good, and never learn bad ways, do your work with good will, lift your feet up well when you trot, and never bite or kick even in play."
-Duchess, Black Beauty, Anna Sewell

Jaguar

Dec. 20, 2003, 12:45 PM

"animals never kill for pleasure" - nhwr

guess you've never seen my dog kill squirrels - its pleasure in its purest form for my dog......mind you he might have a couple bricks missing, but we wont tell him that. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"I hope you will grow up to be gentle and good, and never learn bad ways, do your work with good will, lift your feet up well when you trot, and never bite or kick even in play."
-Duchess, Black Beauty, Anna Sewell

Showpony

Dec. 20, 2003, 09:34 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by bethkrois:

Really, though, although all the parents tell you that they don't regret having children...well, at that point, it is a little bit late to decide! If you had children and resented them...would you be screaming that from the rooftops? Doubt it.

Beth
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually I have heard people say if they had it to do over again they would not have kids (or not have so many). Of course it always starts..."not that I don't love my kids but..." or "I wouldn't trade my kids for the world but..."

I did actually have a father tell me NEVER to have kids! And if he had it to do over he would have done "the selfish thing" and not had kids. He went on to tell me all the reasons he would not have children. Funny to hear him tell it but sad too.

Little did he know he was preaching to the choir!

As for valuing human life over animals, I think it depends on exactly who the human and animal are as to who I would value more!

Obviously, generally speaking for the general public, humans over animals. But, if you want to get specific I'd choose my dogs/horses lives over some people out there.

~*Adult Pony Rider Clique*~
www.timberrunponies.com (http://www.timberrunponies.com)

Shiaway

Dec. 20, 2003, 11:51 PM

That's the reason I didn't want to say where I placed my value. I have seen people get mauled for saying that they value their pets over some people. What is it that is so threatening to make people upset when other people say they value their pets more, I wonder.

I guess it is sad. It's sad for those of us that would rather spend our time around our horses or cats or dogs must have a hard life because we are forced to live in human society-being human duh-and how nice it would be if we could just escape to a cottage and live with our animals. That's what I would love to do. But how do you pay the rent and eat etc.

Definitly a human relationship is different! At the heart of every person is a self centered desire to fufil their own journey. Aniamls pretty much just want to eat and sleep and play sometimes and if they aren't fixed then they would like to have sex. But other than that they don't have thier own journy that they have to sacrafice to spend time with you or do things with you.

They don't talk. One of my favorite things about them.

They will love you unconditionally. The worst thing I find in human relationships is that they can so easily take their love away. Even parents.

I don't pretend my horses love me. But they do love attention. They like to be scratched and given treats and we have lots of kissy moments. I don't really care if they love me. I know my cat loves me because of her behavior though. She is my soul mate and my best friend. Of course I value her more than almost anything except my parents of course.

If you feel sad because of that or you think I am a bad person. Or I am stupid and my morals are too lower. Or whatever you think so be it. I value my cat and my horses more than a value anyone's opinion on COTH.

VWScully

Dec. 21, 2003, 08:14 AM

Well said Shiaway http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

There is no reason that those of us who value ALL LIFE EQUALLY should be considered "sad". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Why is it that when my horse does something right, the judge happens to be looking the other way?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

elizabeth

Dec. 21, 2003, 08:26 AM

Showpony

Dec. 22, 2003, 07:09 PM

elizabeth, for what it's worth, I agree with you!

~*Adult Pony Rider Clique*~
www.timberrunponies.com (http://www.timberrunponies.com)

JumperChild

Dec. 22, 2003, 07:42 PM

I am still just a teenager... well really close to being one. But I have already decided not to have kids - but that option was taken away from me anyways. Radiation therapy killed my ovaries, and they couldnt save anything so there is no way a child will ever be of my blood. I may adopt someday, but I already know that I would rather have horses.

- Sarah
http://www.hamsterhouse.com/ridingirl5678/piccy2.jpg

jamz

Dec. 22, 2003, 07:59 PM

Hey, sorry to join this topic so late, it just caught my attention.

I am so sick of hearing people ask me in complete bewilderment: "why don't you want kids? Don't you want to be a mother?".. No, I don't. I never want to have children, I don't like them, I don't have the patience that it takes to deal with them. I commend those who do, I think it's great in fact. However, I have chosen never to have children, I am much happier deticating my life to my first love, horses.

I hate how people say, "don't be hasty, you'll change your mind soon enough." Well, I disagree. No children for Jamz! I try my best not to flip out when people continually argue with me about this. I've gotten used to people not listening or caring how I really feel. They'll understand some day. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://xjamzx.cjb.net

horse addict

Dec. 22, 2003, 08:47 PM

I think i want kids, i love kids to death, ever since i can remember all my relatives have always said i have a natural thing for dealing with kids, i love them and they are the cutest... But i mean like, i need to get married to have kids... Im sure ill get married though, But i mean i have enough love to spread around between kids and horses http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

*****************************
[m.a.r.i.s.s.a]

Cliques: Baby Green Support Group, Canadian, Mares!, and YCMH.

lucky2day99

Dec. 22, 2003, 09:55 PM

I guess what I don't understand is why if just because you meet the love of your life-- how does meeting and being with the love of your life all of a sudden mean lets procreate?

It is not a big surprise us humans have an overpopulation. I definitely do not want to contribute to more on this earth. Personally after taking care of my mother for the past few years in my 20s I can not even imagine having my life ruled by a child. Sorry it is just how I feel. I can enjoy other children around me, but I prefer to not partake myself.

I guess what I can not stand is when everyone tells me or downplays my decisions by just saying something like I will change my mind or if I just meet the right person... blah blah blah. It is as if saying that I am not normal because I do not want a houseful of kids or even one.

I especially do not like the pressure of after having been with someone (or married) for a brief period of time (under 5 years) that everyone seems to pry when will the kids come. I think the whole point of marriage or a long term relationship is to spend time with the SO and not to hurry and have kiddies.

Christina

equescool

Dec. 22, 2003, 10:59 PM

I can remember the exact moment I chose to have a child. I was 33, married for 8 yrs, and said to my husband, "I guess I will never get to have a baby" after visiting my new niece. He said, "That's all right,honey, you will be raising dogs and horses." In an instant, like a splintering flash, I knew that was not enough for me. Within a month I was pregnant (after being off the pill for 5 yrs) and 'foaled' at 34 yrs. Eight months prego, an acquaintance's daughter walked in my Dad's store, and her mom gooed "Oh look at what you are going to have~!" I was terrified that they were going to make me hold that red, wrinkled thing. <G> Yet when my own was born, I couldn't wait to clean him up. I have never, ever been sorry I had my son. He has been a joy to me. Totally.

But I respect those who choose another life experience. Children take time and energy. Lots. So it is legitimate to recognize that and choose to live life another way or to take measured time to make that committment.

Dec. 23, 2003, 08:38 AM

Joining this topic late - Put me in the no kids, prefer horses bunch.

BTW, my horses, dogs, cats, goats, cats, birds, etc. are just that: horses, dogs, cats, goats, cats, birds, etc., NOT children. Because if they were children, they wouldn't live at my home. Not everyone who has companion animals is using them as child substitutes.

Now, to be sure, I wish children no harm, lots of love and great lives. It's just that I feel no sense of connection with them - I watch them rather bemusedly, as if they were moderately interesting, incomprehensible albeit harmless aliens. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

horsepoor

Dec. 23, 2003, 10:24 AM

Posting late, but I have followed this thread with interest. I've chosen to remain childfree, and that allows me all sorts of time and resources to have horses, but I won't say I "chose" to skip children in lieu of horses. Even if I wasn't involved in horses and riding, I'd still be childfree. Fortunately, most of the people around me support that choice and I haven't had to deal with the questions and pressures that some of you have talked about. I knew that my mother accepted it when several Christmases ago she gave me a T-shirt with "Top 10 Reasons Dogs are Better than Children" listed -- yea, Mom!

Pixie Dust

Dec. 23, 2003, 10:49 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by pt:
BTW, my horses, dogs, cats, goats, cats, birds, etc. are just that: horses, dogs, cats, goats, cats, birds, etc., NOT children. Because if they were children, they wouldn't live at my home. Not everyone who has companion animals is using them as child substitutes.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There you have it. My pets have been my companions, not my children. There is a huge difference. One of my pets, I bonded with so much, I consider him a soulmate (hey I have a few of those http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.) But not my child!! You rear children and teach them how to be independent and become adults and some day leave and take care of themselves. We don't do that with pets! They are companions for life. They are dependent on us and always will be. Having a child is a huge undertaking that may last the rest of your life. No matter how old I get, I am still my mother's "little girl" and she just can't help that. It's what parents do.

The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde

equito

Jul. 1, 2009, 10:36 PM

Though I'm currently only in my teens, this is where I see my life going. No offense to those riders with kiddos (in fact, I deeply admire your dedication to kids and horses and the endless patience kids must require), but I see children as the on major thing that would drag down my riding career time-wise, money-wise, etc... So although my family will call me crazy, foals are going to be the only kiddos I care for. :D

equito

Jul. 1, 2009, 10:39 PM

Joining this topic late - Put me in the no kids, prefer horses bunch.
Now, to be sure, I wish children no harm, lots of love and great lives. It's just that I feel no sense of connection with them - I watch them rather bemusedly, as if they were moderately interesting, incomprehensible albeit harmless aliens. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Ha ha ha ha! Ditto! :lol:

dr j

Jul. 1, 2009, 11:06 PM

If we are talking about being self-centered, it has always struck me that having a child is more self-centered than not having children at all, because giving birth involves making the deliberate decision not to adopt, but, rather, to augment the all ready significant world population.

Presumably the reason for not adopting is self-centered, e.g. "I want to pass on my own genes," "I want to build a baby," "I want to carry a child," "I want to be able to nurse," "I don't want to bring a child into my family when I know nothing about the child's background," "I want a baby of my own race," etc.

These are all "I" statements, as I see them. If folks have differing views, however, I'd love to hear them. Not shockingly, I have been wrong before. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I could actually pick this apart line for line but I just want to mention one point - when picking horse as a prospect to perform a certain task, you don't pick the one that most needs a home do you? You pick the one that genetically, physically has the most potential. We are not that much better than animals - most of us feel our own genes are better than a lot of other peoples and therefore our progeny deserves a chance.

On the flip side, all those people that have babies we think should not, will probably produce the next Lincoln, Pasteur or Einstein.

I had babies later in life- and only after the cards were on the table - it was do or die/now or never. I think you young things can't make your decision 100% until you stare it in the face. Please understand just because they have babies in Hollywood at 50, that doesn't mean you can. Sometimes not making the decision makes the decision for you.

As for giving up horses etc. - I had 4 horses when I had my first child. I now have 2 children and 15 horses. I have to stop having kids because we are out of stalls!! BAAAHAAA!

mvp

Jul. 1, 2009, 11:41 PM

So glad to find 11 pages or so full of peeps in the "give me a horse over a kid any time" camp.

I knew I didn't want a kid before I bred my horse. But having raised him, I now think I would do a better job raising a human child than some of the "real parents" I see around me.

I think I have the best of both worlds in raising and training my horse. I think the people who haven't done this and know they can't because they are busy with kids may be a little jealous. I think jealousy-- on either side-- is what generates the strong emotions behind judgement of the other.

Parker_Rider

Jul. 2, 2009, 12:16 AM

The other night at dinner was "make fun of Jessie" night with my parents and I got to hear all the stories I've heard 2000 times from when I was tiny. My favorite? Getting super incredibly pissed at the dinner table when I was 2 (about what, no one can remember) storming to the doorway, turning around, hand on hip, hip cocked announcing "You're not the boss of me!!!" and marching out of the room. To all those who say that kids under 5 have no impulse control/higher means of plotting... I would have to kindly disagree because as my dad pointed out: I was conniving from the time I could talk - and apparently this runs in the family ;).

Thus, I have learned: there is only room for one of me and my Mt. Everest sized attitude in this world.
Plus, our world is already over-populated and I'm doing my part ;)

Besides, do you know how much those little squealing rascals COST?!?! It makes $800/mo for board look CHEAP!!! Not to even mention if the tot gets it into his/her head that THEY want to ride too...

My babies are my animals, the three ponies who are all tucked in at the barn, and the puppy who's curled at my feet.

Annddddddd I'm a wimp and there is no way on God's green earth I'm pushing a watermelon sized creature out of me. are you kidding? hell to the no!! Plus, there's probably a pretty decent chance that my reproductive system is shot, so there's the problem solved as well ;)

Peg

Jul. 2, 2009, 12:22 AM

I had my kids and now they are adults. I'm also a granny. I love my children and grandchildren, but they can't give me what I can get from my horses. I don't regret having children, I just think it's nice when they spread their wings. So I'm off....... to the barn. It's heaven on earth. Peg

Reynard Ridge

Jul. 2, 2009, 01:00 AM

amdfarm

Jul. 2, 2009, 01:10 AM

I wondered the same thing, RR. I think this has to be one of the oldest threads I've seen be brought back to life.

aurora171989

Jul. 2, 2009, 01:34 AM

I'm guessing the person who brought it back to life did a search on the subject and didn't notice the date of the thread.

6 years old, wow, i wonder if some of these people do have children

Coreene

Jul. 2, 2009, 01:48 AM

Oh. Mein. Gott. In. Himmel. Really, just shoot me now.

Catersun

Jul. 2, 2009, 04:38 AM

Are there any other women here who have decided to not have (or delay having) children in pursuit of riding? There have been a bunch of "how do I juggle kids/horse threads, but not a "I'd rather just ride" one.

Because they always seem to stick there heads into the "how do I juggle threads" and air their opinions there about how *they choose not the have children so they don't Have These Problems*. Feel free to start a clique.. I'm sure you'll have lots of followers.

*apologizes now for being snippy- I'm suffering Horse withdrawl and not because of my kids... they are suffering horse withdrawl as well. It's complicated and when it's all sorted out if anyone cares I'll he happy to explain it then*

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"

Jul. 2, 2009, 10:43 AM

Me. I chose to run my own research program at a university, and have a horse.

My "kids" are my students, I keep track of them through life, if they want the mentorship.

Works for me!!!

Sandy M

Jul. 2, 2009, 10:56 AM

Not a maternal bone in my body, except for where my horse(s) are concerned. LOL

Now, that doesn't mean I hate children or anything. Just never wanted any, nor the considerable burdens they come with. I figured if I didn't want the "mom job," I'd be doing any child I had a disservice. It meant turning down the proposal of a guy I really, really thought was "the one." He wanted not just kids, but "LOTS of kids." Um....sorry.... just not willing to compromise on that one (nor was he). And he was fine with the horses, too. Just wanted that big family, and my idea of a family was two: Me and him.

Fortunately, I was NEVER pressured by my parents. My mother was entirely sympathetic, and my father fairly indifferent. My brother is childless, too. End of the line. ROFLOL (Nah, the are lots of cousins).

xeroxchick

Jul. 2, 2009, 11:07 AM

I'm 46, never had children, never regretted it. There are a lot of things they interfere with, horses being one of them.

ThatScaryChick

Jul. 2, 2009, 11:18 AM

Wow, old thread. :lol:

Put me in as another do not/will not be having children. I love my nieces and nephews and I think that is as close to having children in my life as it's going to get. I just never really felt the need to have children of my own.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"

Jul. 2, 2009, 11:22 AM

I didn't even notice the date...but then, I'm not always sure what year this is anyway.

Just as well I didn't have kids!

middy

Jul. 2, 2009, 11:41 AM

I will never have children of my own!!! I have said this since I was about 8 and I am in my thirties now. It wasn't because I chose horses over children I just never wanted children. I don't know what to do with a child under the age of 4 and don't want to learn. I am currently dating a wonderful guy who has a 3 year old son from a prior marrage and there is a chance that we may work out. I adore this boy but being around him doesn't make me want to procreate at all.

gotabuk

Jul. 2, 2009, 11:53 AM

There are a lot of things they interfere with.

:eek:wow....that's kind of....heartless is the only word that comes to mind.

I was indifferent to having kids for a long time. If it happened, great. If it didn't happen, great.

But I'm currently 5 months pregnant with out first and I would NOT trade this experience for anything in the world. We recently found out that we're having a girl, and to see her little profile, her little fingers and toes on the ultrasound brought tears to my eyes.

And my horse...well, he's on vacation, fat as a tick and happy being a temporary pasture potato. I haven't ridden in about a month and yes, I miss it, but I'm also enjoying the vacation from it as well.

I'm 34 and have been riding since age 7, and I plan to continue riding, no matter how many kids we have. Where there's a will, there's a way. There is always a way to make it work. I know plenty of people who ride and have babies and kids and they all make it work. I have no doubt that I will too.

Horsey love is great, yeah, but I don't think it can be compared to the love given by a child. But that's just my 2 cents.

dressagetraks

Jul. 2, 2009, 11:54 AM

Never have had the slightest desire to have kids. I can't say I'm choosing horses instead, because even without horses, I wouldn't want kids. Two separate cases. But horses, to me, are much more rewarding. I would never inflict myself on a kid or a kid on me. That alone would be a deal-breaker with the otherwise perfect SO. Fortunately, the guy I'm dating doesn't like them, either.

Just last week during a visit to Medicaid about Mom's nursing home, I did spend 30 minutes restraining myself from kid-o-cide by comparing the behavior of my 2yo colt from that morning's session with the behavior of the hooligans in Medicaid. My colt was far better trained, better disciplined, better behaved, and, IMHO, far cuter. :D

FlashGordon

Jul. 2, 2009, 12:04 PM

Because they always seem to stick there heads into the "how do I juggle threads" and air their opinions there about how *they choose not the have children so they don't Have These Problems*. Feel free to start a clique.. I'm sure you'll have lots of followers.

*apologizes now for being snippy- I'm suffering Horse withdrawl and not because of my kids... they are suffering horse withdrawl as well. It's complicated and when it's all sorted out if anyone cares I'll he happy to explain it then*

Cater hope things are ok...?

Frankly I adore my daughter with all my heart and would not trade her for anything. Has it put a damper on my riding endeavors? Sure... but that never crosses my mind.

There was a time when I was pretty damned sure we'd be childless, and not by choice. Horses got me through the depression that accompanied that realization. I am glad I had something else to focus on and be passionate about.

Mr FG is supportive of me staying involved in the horse thing and I am at the barn every day caring for my almost-retired TB. If we had two kids I suspect it would be tougher, for awhile... but we all know that horses are my passion and it will always be a part of my life, in some ways.

Kids and the decision to have them is very personal, and I don't judge anyone for their choice either way.

mrs.smith

Jul. 2, 2009, 12:05 PM

I'm the OP. old thread is an understatement!! Just ask my four year old kid, lol!

equest

Jul. 2, 2009, 12:10 PM

I'm guessing the person who brought it back to life did a search on the subject and didn't notice the date of the thread.

6 years old, wow, i wonder if some of these people do have children

My thoughts exactly. Back in 2003, I was 27 and children were the furthest thing from my mind. Wow, and I had not even started riding back then!! I did not think I wanted one. Fast forward, I am now 33 (sigh... birthday today so it is tough to write that for the first time :)) And I am reconsidering those plans. :)

equest

Jul. 2, 2009, 12:12 PM

MistyBlue

Jul. 2, 2009, 12:16 PM

At our recent barn party, I was looking around the room and noticed that there were a number of professional women who have chosen to dedicate their lives to their horses instead of having children. I am amoung the childless with a horse. I am satisfied with this, even though my family thinks I'm a nut.

I'm the OP. old thread is an understatement!! Just ask my four year old kid, lol!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Congratulations 4 years late Mrs. Smith! :D

FancyFree

Jul. 2, 2009, 12:39 PM

I'm the OP. old thread is an understatement!! Just ask my four year old kid, lol!

hahaha! That's funny and congrats mrs.smith. What changed your mind?

I'm always curious if those who have made the choice not to have children, when they get to the point where having them is no longer an option, do they regret their choice? I think had I not had kids, I would forever feel like I was missing out on something. I love my horses, but it's such an incredible journey you go on with your children, not the same thing at all.

I do respect people who make the choice to not have children though. It's admirable that they know themselves well enough to know that's not for them. I can't understand when other people condemn that choice. Different strokes and all.

millerra

Jul. 2, 2009, 12:47 PM

Two questions:

1. WHY was this thread raised from the dead? It began and ended (until a few minutes agao) in 2003.

2. How many of the avowed childless from 2003 now have little bundles of joy dangling from a Baby Bjorn?

Inquiring minds want to know. :winkgrin:

...

Have no idea as to why it was raised from the dead but to answer your second question:

2 kids, 5 and nearly 2. # of horses went from 3 to 6 but 1 IS a pony.

But I never disavowed to having kids.

Lady Counselor

Jul. 2, 2009, 12:59 PM

Two questions:

1. WHY was this thread raised from the dead? It began and ended (until a few minutes agao) in 2003.

2. How many of the avowed childless from 2003 now have little bundles of joy dangling from a Baby Bjorn?

Inquiring minds want to know. :winkgrin:

Yet how many times has someone raised a topic only to get the snarky, "Why don't you learn to use the search feature" response?
Just sayin'.

Holly Jeanne

Jul. 2, 2009, 01:11 PM

I never vowed not to have children but I also never pictured myself with them. My nephew once asked me if I didn't like children. I said I liked them just fine but really preferred them when they got old enough to carry on a half-way intelligent conversation. He said something like "I'm about there aren't I?" Since we were having a fairly intelligent conversation, I'd say so! :lol:

Just last weekend, the lady I generally sit with at church out of the blue said I needed to find myself a guy soon so I could have children. I said, that's ok, I don't really feel the need to have children. She then tried to argue that children are cheaper than horses. Then she told me that I really would want them once it was too late so I better hurry. I told her it was already too late. She then told me that I might as well give up (on the guy) then. Huh? Same woman once told me I must be selfish if I was single. Sigh. I give her some slack for being elderly and we are supposed to be forgiving after all. ;) Wouldn't mind having the guy but never believed in getting married just for the sake of it or having children just because it was the accepted thing to do in our society. How is that selfish? :no:

dressagetraks

Jul. 2, 2009, 01:22 PM

About whether you regret it as the door gets closer to closing, I've actually got "reverse biological clock."

When I was a kid, I never wanted them. Not just neutral, but actively against the idea.

When I was in my teens, I never wanted them.

When I was in my 20s, I never wanted them.

When I was in my 30s, I never wanted them.

Now that I am on the cusp of turning 40, I am looking forward to that future day when it is no longer a biological possibility, not even by the minutest of chances, and I wish it would get here faster. When it is no longer possible at all for me, I will celebrate because I have escaped a (for me) horrible experience.

No regrets whatsoever. What always surprises me is that most "I don't want kids" people can appreciate that others can be wired totally differently and love kids, but in my experience, very few people who love kids can comprehend how other people might feel differently.

deltawave

Jul. 2, 2009, 01:33 PM

It's not that uncommon, nor is it pathological or "abnormal" to not want children. And it doesn't have to be horses vs. kids--plenty of people choose to not have kids for reasons other than having other passions. It's all good. :)

I wish people would put half as much thought into becoming parents as those who struggle with the decision and ultimately decide NOT to seem to do! :lol: Just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD. :D

analise

Jul. 2, 2009, 01:35 PM

very few people who love kids can comprehend how other people might feel differently.

I think it's a biological/hormonal thing. Once you have kids, you have these chemicals that start up that make you completely unable to imagine not having kids. If all the people who've told me that once they had kids, they couldn't imagine not having them is anything to go by. Or the people I hear who say "it's different when they're yours". And stuff like that. (Disclaimer: this paragraph is at least half tongue-in-cheek.)

That said, I've never really been overly interested in kids. I like my space. I like not having to give up what I want to do for someone else. I'm grateful, of course, that my parents did for me :) but that doesn't mean I want to do it for someone else. I always figured if I got married some day and we wanted to have kids, I'd try to adopt.

Frankly, the idea of being pregnant and giving birth terrifies me.

deltawave

Jul. 2, 2009, 01:38 PM

I'm the OP. old thread is an understatement!! Just ask my four year old kid, lol!

Now I'm LOL and reminding myself to check dates. :lol: I hope all is well for the OP and her 4yo kid. When I say "it's all good", sometimes that can also mean surprises. Or changes of plans. Humans have been coping with kids for a pretty long time, and still making advances in things besides horses all the same. Or not. Families come in all shapes and sizes. It's still all good. :)

Lori B

Jul. 2, 2009, 01:42 PM

I think there's a lot of unthinking conformism at work in the pressure some of us are subjected to regarding having kids. Some people can't bear for others NOT to make the same choices that they do. Which is annoying and sad, but I don't get bent out of shape about it.

I have been surprised at how little grief / nosy inappropriate comments I personally get. (thank you, mom) Hallelujah. I love being an aunt, I'm learning how to be a stepparent, and I can be a crazy animal lady to my heart's content. There are many other ways to contribute to a new generation's wellbeing and upbringing other than having them yourself. I try to increase the amount of turnout and activity they get and reduce the grain (and television) in their lives, as much as I can.

mrs.smith

Jul. 2, 2009, 01:47 PM

Now I'm LOL and reminding myself to check dates. :lol: I hope all is well for the OP and her 4yo kid. When I say "it's all good", sometimes that can also mean surprises. Or changes of plans. Humans have been coping with kids for a pretty long time, and still making advances in things besides horses all the same. Or not. Families come in all shapes and sizes. It's still all good. :)

well, the baby was a big surprise, to say the least, LOL! but we are doing well, and I agree families come in all different varieties. :)

FlashGordon

Jul. 2, 2009, 02:01 PM

I think there's a lot of unthinking conformism at work in the pressure some of us are subjected to regarding having kids. Some people can't bear for others NOT to make the same choices that they do. Which is annoying and sad, but I don't get bent out of shape about it.

Very true! It is amazing how there is a well ingrained feeling that women should pop out kids, cook meals, and do laundry. Oh and work full-time, too. And not have any interests outside work or kids or home. The stereotype is alive and well regardless of how many people want to say it is long gone....

I work two part time jobs but am essentially stay-at-home, as I work mostly out of my house. Other SAHM's cannot fathom the idea that I have a passion outside of my kid. I go to playgroup every week and they are chatting about the latest and greatest stroller or cloth diapers or something while I smile and nod and dream of a new girth and some monogrammed baby pads... ;)

chawley

Jul. 2, 2009, 02:02 PM

I put off a family (currently in my mid 30s) for a variety of reasons, including riding, but later found out it didn't matter because I can't have children anyway. I'm okay with it though!

MILOUTE55

Jul. 2, 2009, 02:05 PM

I'm the OP. old thread is an understatement!! Just ask my four year old kid, lol!

This is so great :)

myhorsefaith

Jul. 2, 2009, 02:19 PM

Very true! It is amazing how there is a well ingrained feeling that women should pop out kids, cook meals, and do laundry. Oh and work full-time, too. And not have any interests outside work or kids or home. The stereotype is alive and well regardless of how many people want to say it is long gone....

I work two part time jobs but am essentially stay-at-home, as I work mostly out of my house. Other SAHM's cannot fathom the idea that I have a passion outside of my kid. I go to playgroup every week and they are chatting about the latest and greatest stroller or cloth diapers or something while I smile and nod and dream of a new girth and some monogrammed baby pads... ;)

Yes! I work in a corporate office and i am routinely made fun of because I play "horsey" and dont have nor want to pop out children. People ask me why all the time and in my head i say "because i dont want to end up like you" and out of my mouth comes "because i dont feel the need to populate the world with more humans, thanks."

To them, my life is not serious. i just got married, and they cannot believe my husband thinks my (ours...but to them its mine) is ok. when in fact hubby wants children less than i do, LOL. Add to it that i dont spend $$ on the latest fashions and i never have any clue as to what tv shows our celebrity gossip they are talking about. I just sit there quietly and listen (and think *thank god*)

Thankfully, my manager, who does not have children either but small pets with his partner, understands and treats my necessary time off to be the same as those of my co-workers who need time off to tend to their children.

I dont mind that they have kids, but what I do mind is that they think they are somehow better or special, requiring to talk ad nauseum about them expecting me to care. LOL sometimes i want to talk about my horses like they talk about their kids "my 3 yr old crapped in his bed last nite and bit his friend at day care"... :D but i restrain myself.

who knows, maybe one day we'll change our minds and have a kid or 2. but for now, life is good the way it is, and i hope for the same for everyone else.