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Alagirl
Sep. 28, 2011, 01:47 AM
This guy has a fancy arena...but a few things are just off...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDJPDfwidVc&feature=related

Ok, tell me I am an idiot and he is like totally good....

MyssMyst
Sep. 28, 2011, 02:24 AM
Alagirl, didn't you see that mustache? He is totes legit!

Seriously, while I'm not educated, what I'm seeing doesn't make me go "wow, I can learn from this". The canter work really bothered me, it seemed like some awkward combo of dressage and AQHA western pleasure. Like AQHA WP, I noticed the first horse wasn't straight, and had his haunches to the inside. And why is he holding the whip like a sword?

Someone please educate me.

ETA: Check this: http://www.bentbranderup.dk/branderup.html

"All this led to the meeting of Hugin in 1986. A Knabstrupper stallion, seriously injured, with three legs broken in 1991and later on in 1995 he went totally blind. Trough Hugin Bent learned to use the Dressage for the Horse instead of using the Horse for the Dressage"

Ummmmmmmmm, I really doubt that. I don't know any horse with three broken legs that wouldn't be humanely euthanized.

mildot
Sep. 28, 2011, 05:35 AM
Definitely retro

KatieH
Sep. 28, 2011, 06:42 AM
I just clicked through to one of the other videos to see what the deal was - apparently he holds the whip like a sword because sometimes there are swords involved! :eek: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSxEcNtMm2g&feature=related)

I've heard his name about before, but until now never seen anything of him - obviously a VERY classical dressage person.

LaraNSpeedy
Sep. 28, 2011, 08:22 AM
It's a different school of dressage than what we practice for competition or train for flat work for other disciplines. But I like it. Its more of a performance than riding. I can imagine if he rode the horse forward, we would all say WOW because then we would see what we expect to see. I dont see any abuse here - that horse is very relaxed and happy.

alibi_18
Sep. 28, 2011, 09:26 AM
The horse is doing a canter pirouette by pivoting on its inside front leg!

And those who advocate about the fact that a real classical pirouette should be done with a 3 beat canter...this one is closer to 5 beats!

@LNS: no one said he was abusing his horses.

People tend to mix up 'forward' with 'fast' and 'collection' with 'going in slow motion'... In any flat work, competitive dressage, classical dressage, whatever, I expect to see a horse that has impulsion, throught its back and engage its hind legs.
Not fast or slow, hollow back with hind legs draging behind.

Sandy M
Sep. 28, 2011, 09:29 AM
I have a whole DVD of this gentleman, and it notes that this particular horse is blind. Yes, its more uber-classical, reproducing 16th/17th Century costume in some instances, as well as riding of that era as opposed to modern competitive dressage

kinnip
Sep. 28, 2011, 09:30 AM
Pivoting on the front leg is called a Jambette. It is a legit Baroque movement. Carrying the whip like a sword is also legit amoungst classicists.

ThreeFigs
Sep. 28, 2011, 09:32 AM
I was troubled by the starting canter work in the first video, but the more I watched, the more I liked what I saw. He's studied with some of the best and his position is lovely. He knows what he's doing, IMO.

WHY do these guys do the facial hair thing, though?

WBLover
Sep. 28, 2011, 09:38 AM
The horse does look very relaxed and happy in his work--I'll give him that. But that was not a canter pirouette in my book--they should be 3-beat like the regular canter. That was a very broken up 4-beat pirouette, more like he was just stepping around in a circle.

BaroquePony
Sep. 28, 2011, 09:41 AM
I believe that he is riding the horse that was rescued with *three broken legs*/seriously injured (whatever that means).

I like the attitude of the horses. He seems quite legit in a very old method.

DownYonder
Sep. 28, 2011, 10:00 AM
FWIW, at a recent Debbie McDonald clinic, Debbie had a rider hold her whip upright. Mare was sluggish and resisting rider's efforts to animate her hind legs, was overreactive to whip behind (scared and PO'd), and throwing her head in the air. Upright whip discouraged mare from throwing her head and allowed rider to apply leg aids more effectively.

angel
Sep. 28, 2011, 10:29 AM
Most riders have a tendency to rotate the left hand inward instead of keeping the thumb on top. A frequent result is that the rider loses the horse's left shoulder, especially in clockwise work. When the whip is kept vertical in the left hand, it helps prevent this inward rotation of the left hand, and as the results, the left rein does a better job of controling the horse's left shoulder.

alibi_18
Sep. 28, 2011, 10:32 AM
Pivoting on the front leg is called a Jambette. It is a legit Baroque movement. Carrying the whip like a sword is also legit amoungst classicists.

Have you even looked at the video?

No, a 'Jambette' is not that at all.
A jambette is the premise of the spanish walk. One leg that lift in front, hold there a moment and take a step.

And the jambette mixed with a pivot is not classical riding, it is circus riding. And this movement is certainly NOT done at the canter.

The rider was aiming for a canter pirouette but the inside front leg get stuck on the ground and is pivoting.

mildot
Sep. 28, 2011, 10:41 AM
Have you even looked at the video?

No, a 'Jambette' is not that at all.
A jambette is the premise of the spanish walk. One leg that lift in front, hold there a moment and take a step.

And the jambette mixed with a pivot is not classical riding, it is circus riding. And this movement is certainly NOT done at the canter.

The rider was aiming for a canter pirouette but the inside front leg get stuck on the ground and is pivoting.

It's been said before but it bears repeating. If the horse in question indeed suffered several leg fractures at an earlier age, it could be that the horse is doing the best it can within his issues and his rider/trainer has helped him get there.

mildot
Sep. 28, 2011, 10:42 AM
WHY do these guys do the facial hair thing, though?
Because it's cool and goes with the whole Baroque retro theme?

Petstorejunkie
Sep. 28, 2011, 11:56 AM
as a classical student (who also competes), I see a horse that is happy, work that has errors, and his position does need some work.
Anyone who produces a happy horse with reasonably correct work at the high levels deserves a second look. I'm not ready to book myself in a clinic, but I wouldn't trash talk the guy based on that video.

joiedevie99
Sep. 28, 2011, 01:17 PM
Besides the early canter work which I don't like at all, I find it odd that he drops the snaffle rein on the gray and rides off the curb alone. Now, it doesn't bother me because he isn't riding on much contact- it just seems strange.

BaroquePony
Sep. 28, 2011, 02:19 PM
Once again, I think the *early canter work* that is so odd might be the horse that he saved that had serious injuries. The other horses and the rider look like the painting in the riding hall at the SRS.

Think Austria, Bavaria, Russian Czars and you get the moustache :yes:.

katarine
Sep. 28, 2011, 02:26 PM
I had no idea the Burger King rode. Fascinating.

Carol O
Sep. 28, 2011, 02:35 PM
It's a different school of dressage than what we practice for competition or train for flat work for other disciplines. But I like it. Its more of a performance than riding. I can imagine if he rode the horse forward, we would all say WOW because then we would see what we expect to see. I dont see any abuse here - that horse is very relaxed and happy.

Ditto.

Lost_at_C
Sep. 28, 2011, 02:37 PM
Joiedevie, riding on the curb rein only is (or used to be) considered a pinnacle of riding/training... to be able to cue the horse only with the seat and legs and demonstrate effective contact and self carriage. Others commented on the upright whip, which is also very traditional to classical schools. I'm not blown away by this video but I think I'm on board with the intent behind the work. It's certainly not the worst classical/baroque type work that's been posted here in recent years.

BaroquePony
Sep. 28, 2011, 06:42 PM
What I like the most about it is that it is like viewing a slice of history, only it is "live".

Art history.

He and his horses would fit right into an exhibit at the Smithsonian :yes:. Including the mustauche :lol:. Waxed :lol:.

ThreeFigs
Sep. 29, 2011, 12:24 AM
I had no idea the Burger King rode. Fascinating.

:lol:!

meupatdoes
Sep. 29, 2011, 08:03 AM
At least he is actually doing some remotely upper level stuff, instead of ranting endlessly about how "everyone else is doing it wrong" and teaching all his students the "real" "shoulder-in" and never getting above a walk.

BaroquePony
Sep. 29, 2011, 08:15 AM
C'mon guys, his horses are not tense and they are very willing to work for him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSxEcNtMm2g

Tegan
Sep. 29, 2011, 08:20 AM
I had no idea the Burger King rode. Fascinating.

I am so glad I just swallowed my mouthful of coffee, or I'd be sending you a bill for a new laptop!

paulaedwina
Sep. 29, 2011, 08:24 AM
I've always liked this guy, and not just because I like Kladrubers!

Paula

LaraNSpeedy
Sep. 29, 2011, 08:31 AM
I mentioned the 'abuse' because of the words under the picture - there was a discussion there not on COTH here.

No 5 beat. Horses have 4 legs LOL

But I know when I first watched it - I was like - that is not a pure gait - need 3 beats but then I was like that is not the point in this work here - it is more of an obediance and the level of collection to which most people never get to. The horse manages all this and stays soft throughout his body. This is not to be compared and contrasted to most of the dressage we usually do. I wont be critical of it. The horse looks happy and relaxed and obediant.

I agree that there are errors. But I dont know the context of the video either. I just would not trash this or make fun of it.

BaroquePony
Sep. 29, 2011, 08:32 AM
Hugin is the horse that was injured ... this video apparently was on his 25th B-day.

Bent Branderup & Hugin, 2011

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDIPPQVw8dA&feature=related

UST
Sep. 29, 2011, 10:52 AM
Wouldn't it be nice if more horseowners/riders would follow his example?
Imagine horses being ridden (happy and healthy) into their 20s with a balanced, educated rider on their backs?
May I quote Ghandi: BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT THE WORLD TO BE.

Beautiful horse, beautiful rider. Period.

FlashGordon
Sep. 29, 2011, 11:01 AM
Sometimes when I watch Dressage I feel like the horses just look lame.

I mean, I know they are not, but it seems the upper level stuff is so.. stiff.... and not fluid.....

Dunno maybe it is just my H/J background. lol.

CosMonster
Sep. 29, 2011, 11:28 AM
It seems to me that most of the criticisms are about Hugin. Without knowing anything about the horse I thought the same things (the canter pirouette issue, some impurities in the gait, etc.) but taking into account the horse's age and his injuries (whatever they exactly were they sound significant) I think it was actually quite lovely. He looks very happy and relaxed and his rider does not seem to be pushing him for perfection at the expense of the horse's comfort. Frankly, that does impress me even if the work technically isn't great.

I thought the other horses looked very nice though, and that he is a lovely rider. The curb bit and whip things that some people brought up are the norm in baroque riding. Generally a double bridle is considered a training tool with the ultimate goal to be riding in self-carriage on a loose rein with a curb bit.

I agree that none of the rides were perfect, but without more context (and until I can do better :lol:) I am impressed.

Also I do have to say that I love that mustache. I'm a sucker for ridiculous facial hair, though. If I were a man I'd totally try to get on Whisker Wars or something like that.

CFFarm
Sep. 29, 2011, 12:05 PM
The gaits may seem impure to todays standards but I remember in an interview with Paul Belasik that the old classical riders used a 4 beat canter to slow the horse down to work on collection. Maybe that was what he was doing. Besides the new research proves the canter pirouette is not a true canter anyway, but that's for another thread.

He must have been discussed and critiqued before, he's been around a while. I'd like to ride with him.

Reiter
Sep. 29, 2011, 01:03 PM
I've always liked this guy, and not just because I like Kladrubers!

Paula

Knapstruppers! A Kladruber is a draft horse! ;)

mildot
Sep. 29, 2011, 02:02 PM
We seem to have one here in the US: http://www.internationalacademyofbaroqueandacademicequest rianeducation.com/

paulaedwina
Sep. 29, 2011, 02:27 PM
Knapstruppers! A Kladruber is a draft horse! ;)

Eh well - knowing my preference I'm sure I meant Kladrubers

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.whitehorsedressage.com/_gallery//Petra_2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.whitehorsedressage.com/index.php%3Fgid%3D8%26year%3D2010&usg=__IXVe9wXcaai2hT46xw93sLoQnmI=&h=800&w=800&sz=128&hl=en&start=8&zoom=1&tbnid=hoJD24f3P2R8yM:&tbnh=143&tbnw=143&ei=dbiEToT3BOPk0QHpib0F&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dkladruber%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG%26gbv%3D 2%26tbm%3Disch&itbs=1

http://www.pferde-pferderassen.de/pferderasse/60

Paula

alibi_18
Sep. 29, 2011, 02:48 PM
We seem to have one here in the US: http://www.internationalacademyofbaroqueandacademicequest rianeducation.com/

:lol: Is he a descendant of Colonel Sanders?

http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Business/images/colonel-sanders.jpg

mildot
Sep. 29, 2011, 02:51 PM
:lol: Is he a descendant of Colonel Sanders?

http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Business/images/colonel-sanders.jpg

LOL or one of the Three Musketeers

ThegoodLife
Sep. 29, 2011, 06:15 PM
Thats a pretty serious moustache he has going on.

ThreeFigs
Sep. 30, 2011, 01:34 AM
That guy made a brief appearance here.

Lynnwood
Sep. 30, 2011, 02:53 AM
I think it was lovely. Horses and humans relaxed and happy doing their jobs whatever that might be.

alicen
Sep. 30, 2011, 06:15 AM
I hope the old boy is rewarded with a lot of pasture time for his efforts.

kinnip
Sep. 30, 2011, 06:20 AM
Have you even looked at the video?

No, a 'Jambette' is not that at all.
A jambette is the premise of the spanish walk. One leg that lift in front, hold there a moment and take a step.

And the jambette mixed with a pivot is not classical riding, it is circus riding. And this movement is certainly NOT done at the canter.

The rider was aiming for a canter pirouette but the inside front leg get stuck on the ground and is pivoting.

My bad. I didn't watch the vid, just made an assumption based on what Iv'e seen of his riding previously. Ooops.

Bats79
Sep. 30, 2011, 08:27 AM
It's a different school of dressage than what we practice for competition or train for flat work for other disciplines. But I like it. Its more of a performance than riding. I can imagine if he rode the horse forward, we would all say WOW because then we would see what we expect to see. I dont see any abuse here - that horse is very relaxed and happy.

I agree. There is classical (which is really the approach to training) and there is the dressage that is based in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries and there is the dressage that is based on the 19th, 20th and 21st centuries.

Bend Branderup's riding style /technique is pre Baucher, going back to Pluvinel.

BumbleBee
Sep. 30, 2011, 09:10 AM
What ever you wish to call it I loved it.

Could that horse look any more happy in his work?!

Gestalt
Sep. 30, 2011, 11:18 AM
C'mon guys, his horses are not tense and they are very willing to work for him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSxEcNtMm2g

Ditto ^ Which is a heckofalot more than I can say about a lot of upper level riders. I find him interesting.

And the comments on this board regarding his personal appearance are disturbing.

LSM1212
Sep. 30, 2011, 01:25 PM
Hugin is the horse that was injured ... this video apparently was on his 25th B-day.

Bent Branderup & Hugin, 2011

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDIPPQVw8dA&feature=related

Loved his lip moving while he was working. He was flapping it up and down. :lol:

And the end was great.... nice good roll... no more clean horsie. And the lovely gift at the end. :)

Petstorejunkie
Sep. 30, 2011, 03:34 PM
:lol: yes, a lot of the classical masters do seem to groom themselves like a step back in time. I think it comes with the total immersion in one's work. Even in how they carry themselves walking around there's a difference. If you've ever met Paul Belasik you know what I'm talking about. Even relaxed at dinner over a glass of wine, there's something in how he carries himself that prompts you to sit up straighter.

And let's not jump on Mr Sands for his appearance here. He was very kind and helpful in his PM discussions with me. While I do not follow the teachings of Baucher, I did enjoy talking to him when he wasn't constantly on the defense.

HoofHeartSoul
Sep. 30, 2011, 04:17 PM
i agree that the horse looks VERY happy and relaxed. but at times he looks like he isn't sitting and i also don't like that slow canter. at times he loses the pure gait of it.

i LOVE how the horse is always infront of the verticle.

the slapping lips are hilarious! but i am thinking i wonder if it is a sign of tension,thinking or relaxation?

i have seen worse things though and will take this over rollkur ANYDAY!

RougeEmpire
Sep. 30, 2011, 09:00 PM
He should compete at the ....http://www.worldbeardchampionships.com/ !

mildot
Sep. 30, 2011, 09:15 PM
He should compete at the ....http://www.worldbeardchampionships.com/ !

They even have the right category: http://www.worldbeardchampionships.com/musketeer-2011/

To be fair to Messiers Sanders and Branderup, I'm a bit old school and I think their facial hair rocks.

My wife would kill me though..........:lol:

Mozart
Oct. 1, 2011, 12:52 AM
Not my cup of tea from a riding perspective but the horses are relaxed, happy and clearly very well cared for. Not gonna give him any grief.

Bats79
Oct. 1, 2011, 04:39 AM
They even have the right category: http://www.worldbeardchampionships.com/musketeer-2011/

To be fair to Messiers Sanders and Branderup, I'm a bit old school and I think their facial hair rocks.

My wife would kill me though..........:lol:

We need a "like" button. LOL

mbm
Oct. 1, 2011, 02:20 PM
i only got thru the first page of responses here.... and all i can say about many of the posts is : get educated.

the fact that so many dont understand what they are seeing is sad - the old masters would be rolling in their graves !!

hint: pick up the book (http://www.amazon.com/School-Horsemanship-Francois-Robichon-Gueriniere/dp/0851315755)by De la Gueriniere

Gestalt
Oct. 1, 2011, 02:39 PM
i agree that the horse looks VERY happy and relaxed. but at times he looks like he isn't sitting and i also don't like that slow canter. at times he loses the pure gait of it.

i LOVE how the horse is always infront of the verticle.

the slapping lips are hilarious! but i am thinking i wonder if it is a sign of tension,thinking or relaxation?

i have seen worse things though and will take this over rollkur ANYDAY!

A friend had a TB that would pop his lips when working. He was quite a character, sometimes it sounded like he was humming too! :) I don't know about the horse in the video, but the TB wouldn't make the popping noise when he was stressed. At shows his lips were "tense", not flopping like during schooling or just general riding.

CosMonster
Oct. 2, 2011, 10:18 AM
Yeah, every horse I've met who flaps their lips like that does it when they're relaxed. It's different than worrying at the bit or anything like that.

BaroquePony
Oct. 2, 2011, 11:26 AM
I think they pop/flap their lips because they like the noise and that it is a synchronizing rythymn for them .... like the rythymn in their core. Horse invents a way for him to have his own metronome.

:D

Dune
Oct. 2, 2011, 11:40 AM
Is it the pretty arena that is distracting you ladies?? If this was Anky riding/working the horse in hand, I think you'd be focusing on the *active* tail (swishing) and the flapping lips (tense). I don't get it.:confused: I don't think this guys is horrible or anything, but really???:lol:

LarkspurCO
Oct. 2, 2011, 12:14 PM
The gaits may seem impure to todays standards but I remember in an interview with Paul Belasik that the old classical riders used a 4 beat canter to slow the horse down to work on collection. Maybe that was what he was doing. Besides the new research proves the canter pirouette is not a true canter anyway, but that's for another thread.

^^^^^

And I would bet when he does actually execute the canter pirouette it is very precise and correct. I would love to have a horse with such strength and sitting ability. One thing I am starting to learn about is the process of getting from point A to point B and how many steps (literally and figuratively) there are in between.

LarkspurCO
Oct. 2, 2011, 12:21 PM
Oh, and the mustache made me laugh out loud.

mbm
Oct. 2, 2011, 01:24 PM
Is it the pretty arena that is distracting you ladies?? If this was Anky riding/working the horse in hand, I think you'd be focusing on the *active* tail (swishing) and the flapping lips (tense). I don't get it.:confused: I don't think this guys is horrible or anything, but really???:lol:

i didnt see the in hand vid, but i just want to comment that in *general* there is more to it than a swishing tail (as you know).... how is the timing of the handler? are they asking appropriate questions? are they rewarding by releasing pressure? are they working within the normal range of healthy muscle activities ?

training horses is not all butterflies and roses, and there are times when horses will have negative reactions (ie tail swish, lip flap, etc) however, if it is an ongoing issues then i would want to know why?

the goal is harmony between horse and rider - but that path can and will have various challenges.

and, if i remember correctly - the spotted horse is blind. so the lip flap may be his way of expressing that tension. <shrug?>

ThreeFigs
Oct. 2, 2011, 03:32 PM
He should compete at the ....http://www.worldbeardchampionships.com/ !


Now, now, you'll disturb Gestalt! Stop that.

Foxtrot's
Oct. 2, 2011, 03:54 PM
I can't knock it - I see a horse with attentive ears, willing, soft hand and quiet tail.
The rider is not pounding with the spur and sitting still. Happier looking than a lot in the dressage 'competition' world.

Gestalt
Oct. 2, 2011, 03:58 PM
Now, now, you'll disturb Gestalt! Stop that.

Did kitty have sour milk this morning?

ThreeFigs
Oct. 2, 2011, 04:14 PM
Why Gestalt, I was only trying to help! :p

I think the fellow's riding is lovely and his horses look happy and relaxed. True, I found the first horse's canter work somewhat disturbing, but evidently there are reasons for it. I might say "how odd", but I won't condemn it.

My opinions about his facial hair styling are just that -- opinions.

Gestalt
Oct. 2, 2011, 04:33 PM
Well it's just my observation that many people find it okay to make fun of a white man, but they wouldn't make those same types of comments about someone of a different race or color.

Or it could be that the beginning posts on this thread just struck me wrong and it's all gone downhill. :( Carry on!

ThreeFigs
Oct. 2, 2011, 04:46 PM
That's silly. (Just My Opinion.)

I might have made the same comments about him if he'd been a black guy or a Japanese guy riding a Baroque horse while sporting "Dutch Masters" facial hair.

But he's a white guy. This sport attracts more Caucasians than otherwise -- so far. That will change over time, I'm sure.

alibi_18
Oct. 2, 2011, 06:19 PM
http://cache4.asset-cache.net/xc/sb10063861l-001.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=6C4008C0FD9EB5A559D3E8C77C83160D58F9412BEA0E8009 C3DEB5480AEE12EA6529E79887609E4F

ThreeFigs
Oct. 2, 2011, 06:25 PM
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

But he's not riding a horse...

alibi_18
Oct. 2, 2011, 06:33 PM
and I'm trying my best to include all races.

http://do-while.com/img/life/beard-and-moustache/beard-and-moustache09.jpg

ThreeFigs
Oct. 2, 2011, 07:41 PM
And look! His horse is really, really happy!

BaroquePony
Oct. 2, 2011, 07:47 PM
Well, he certainly looks to be *at one* with his horse :lol:.

Dune
Oct. 3, 2011, 11:36 AM
i didnt see the in hand vid, but i just want to comment that in *general* there is more to it than a swishing tail (as you know).... how is the timing of the handler? are they asking appropriate questions? are they rewarding by releasing pressure? are they working within the normal range of healthy muscle activities ?

training horses is not all butterflies and roses, and there are times when horses will have negative reactions (ie tail swish, lip flap, etc) however, if it is an ongoing issues then i would want to know why?

the goal is harmony between horse and rider - but that path can and will have various challenges.

and, if i remember correctly - the spotted horse is blind. so the lip flap may be his way of expressing that tension. <shrug?>

Yeah, who knows? My point was that the masses here would not accept that on a Matine or the likes, but here it's all right. :confused: Just a bit perplexed at the reaction(s) here. It's entertaining. ;) <shrug>

mbm
Oct. 3, 2011, 11:42 AM
lol! matine is a whole 'nother kettle of fish entirely. and is a good example of what i was suggesting when i said "it depends" ...

matines tail swish was a clear signal something was wrong - as was the manner in which she was ridden (dropped back etc etc)

but that is a different thread from long ago :)

alterhorse
Oct. 3, 2011, 05:09 PM
He understands the principles of training, it's just that his choice of what to train the horse is not what we might consider mainstream.

He has different objectives, and evidently he's achieving them and pleased about it.

I may get board as all get out watching western pleasure horses stumble around a ring, but some folks enjoy it.

to each their own.

CFFarm
Oct. 4, 2011, 11:23 AM
Well it's just my observation that many people find it okay to make fun of a white man, but they wouldn't make those same types of comments about someone of a different race or color.

Or it could be that the beginning posts on this thread just struck me wrong and it's all gone downhill. :( Carry on!

Not true. We will pick apart anyone. Did you see the Chinese Riding School thread?:D

Dune
Oct. 4, 2011, 11:43 AM
lol! matine is a whole 'nother kettle of fish entirely. and is a good example of what i was suggesting when i said "it depends" ...

matines tail swish was a clear signal something was wrong - as was the manner in which she was ridden (dropped back etc etc)

but that is a different thread from long ago :)

LOL, indeed! "It depends" is *my* mantra/bumper sticker. :winkgrin: It's just funny, that's all.....carry on folks, it's what you do best! :lol:

Foxtrot's
Oct. 4, 2011, 12:07 PM
"It depends" was what Tom Dorrance said to almost every question, too.

InWhyCee Redux
Oct. 4, 2011, 01:47 PM
Wouldn't it be nice if more horseowners/riders would follow his example?
Imagine horses being ridden (happy and healthy) into their 20s with a balanced, educated rider on their backs?
May I quote Ghandi: BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT THE WORLD TO BE.

Beautiful horse, beautiful rider. Period.

Agreed. I would far rather watch a good baroque or doma vaquera pair than someone practicing hyperflexed, foaming "modern dressage." The second video posted, with the in-hand work — is lovely.

CosMonster
Oct. 4, 2011, 07:35 PM
Is it the pretty arena that is distracting you ladies?? If this was Anky riding/working the horse in hand, I think you'd be focusing on the *active* tail (swishing) and the flapping lips (tense). I don't get it.:confused: I don't think this guys is horrible or anything, but really???:lol:

Well, I admit that Anky is not my favorite BNR but I would never criticize someone just because their horse was swishing its tail or flapping its lips. Those can certainly be signs of tension and discomfort, but you have to take the whole picture into account. Many horses have "active" tails or flapping lips for other reasons. And as far as the lips go, I have not seen flapping like that as a sign of tension. Worrying at the bit, sure. But that relaxed rhythmic flapping? Not so much.

My doma horse swishes his tail constantly in piaffe, but he does the movement on a loose rein and with a relaxed body. It has decreased somewhat as he has gotten used to the movement, but he still does it in rhythm. I've been told by everyone I've ridden with that he is relaxed and comfortable in the movement, so it's not just me thinking that. I'd be the last person to say that an active tail automatically means the hose is tense or uncomfortable. :lol:

Dune
Oct. 5, 2011, 01:44 PM
Well, I admit that Anky is not my favorite BNR but I would never criticize someone just because their horse was swishing its tail or flapping its lips. Those can certainly be signs of tension and discomfort, but you have to take the whole picture into account. Many horses have "active" tails or flapping lips for other reasons. And as far as the lips go, I have not seen flapping like that as a sign of tension. Worrying at the bit, sure. But that relaxed rhythmic flapping? Not so much.

My doma horse swishes his tail constantly in piaffe, but he does the movement on a loose rein and with a relaxed body. It has decreased somewhat as he has gotten used to the movement, but he still does it in rhythm. I've been told by everyone I've ridden with that he is relaxed and comfortable in the movement, so it's not just me thinking that. I'd be the last person to say that an active tail automatically means the hose is tense or uncomfortable. :lol:

Like I said before, I don't think the guy is horrible or anything. He's all right and better than some that I've seen. It was just funny to me;) that so many were talking about how relaxed the horse looked when they've been so vocal in the past about active tails and mouths, especially when the work then was more correct. This horse doesn't look in agony, but there are some signs that he's not 100% comfortable. No biggie, I just found some humor in it.....:) Gorgeous arena, though, and striking horse.:yes:

SnicklefritzG
Oct. 7, 2011, 04:25 PM
His horses look relaxed and happy. He should lose the facial hair, but other than that I enjoyed watching the video.

BaroquePony
Oct. 7, 2011, 07:40 PM
I think you do have to look at the individul horses. But also, certain breeds and certain lines within breeds can have very characteristic expressions when it comes to being *lippy* and tail announcements.

I do always take note of it. And then I watch.

There is a softness to some tail swishes that I will let pass as acceptable. However, once there is a certain sort of *swat*, however so slight of a swat, but still a tension coming in, happening with a tail, I consider that to be a sign of something not being right, either the training, the riding or a physical problem.

Same with the lippy attitude. However, if the horse is softly chewing, then I look for more signs of things being right rather than wrong.

Blind horses will be VERY lippy sometimes because they will begin to substitute their other senses to take up the slack of losing their sight ... an extremly important sense for a horse. Depends on the horse. Some can be very stoic about going blind, I think. I only know about the lippy ones.

I believe there is a CoTHer that has a blind horse that uses it lips to do all kinds of things.

Anyway, I have had two horses with sight problems that have been very lippy. On the ground, I have one that will softly take a piece of my shirt in their lips and then follow me around. I can hardly tell they are behind me they are so quiet. I don't like a horse to walk directly behind me, but in this case I allow it sometimes. This same horse always *thanks* me for special things (like whenever I kill a huge black meateating fly on them) by taking a quick snatch of my shirt and letting go. It is a very soft, very quick, tiny tug.

irkenequine
Oct. 7, 2011, 08:56 PM
I didn't realize Knabstruppers could look so Baroque. I have to say, in a majikal way I was kind of smitten with him.

Its not what we would associate with powerhouse modern competition dressage, but I liked it. I thought it was effective communication, the horses were definitely thinking about the job they were performing and his signals weren't being crossed. Very interesting watch.

SnicklefritzG
Oct. 7, 2011, 11:12 PM
Like I said before, I don't think the guy is horrible or anything. He's all right and better than some that I've seen. It was just funny to me;) that so many were talking about how relaxed the horse looked when they've been so vocal in the past about active tails and mouths, especially when the work then was more correct. This horse doesn't look in agony, but there are some signs that he's not 100% comfortable. No biggie, I just found some humor in it.....:) Gorgeous arena, though, and striking horse.:yes:

Was that the horse who is blind? If it is, then good for him for doing all that and not being able to see. He should get a bye on any nit picky things that people acre to complain about. lol.