horse set on fire in Harnett Co., N.C. (UPDATE pg. 10-Dixie lost her tail) [Archive]

ESG

Aug. 26, 2005, 07:07 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jn4jenny:
That's horrible and I hope those girls get punished to the full extent of the law, but I also hope that whoever's responsible for this case looks into WHY these girls did it. You don't often see a well-adjusted teen with a happy home life setting a horse's tail on fire for fun. There's probably something going on with these girls at home or at school, and all too often these cases end in court prosecution but no attempts to address the psychological cause of the problem. Sometimes it's an isolated incidence of teenage stupidity, but more often it's a warning sign of even worse things to come. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_GREEN">I don't give a rat's ass what's "going on at home" with these kids - they've tortured and maimed a completely defenseless animal that did nothing to them! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif I hope they throw their asses in jail and throw away the key. AND they should be prosecuted as adults, not sent to juvie playgroup. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif</span>

ESG

Aug. 26, 2005, 07:19 AM

Where do I sign up?http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ise@ssl

Aug. 26, 2005, 07:22 AM

I agree with ESG - stop making excuses for these juvenile delinquents. Everyone growing up seems to feel they have problems at home at some point in the adolescence - they don't go out and start animals on FIRE for God's sake.

And if the woman was away for 3 days and did or did not have people coming in to feed and water - DOES NOT RELATE TO WHAT WAS DONE TO THE HORSE!

And while I'm ever hopeful for justice - the reality seems to be that the court system will slap their wrist and their precious identity will be protected.

If this horse owner has a brain in her head - she will sue all four sets of parents in civil court - this was trespassing and certainly not accidental.

onelanerode

Aug. 26, 2005, 07:22 AM

Folks -- I don't know whether the horses were left unsupervised. The story sort of indicates that they were, but it may just be because the reporter didn't think to ask about who was around in the owners' absence.

Let's not cast stones just yet, OK?

ESG

Aug. 26, 2005, 07:30 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ise@ssl:
If this horse owner has a brain in her head - she will sue all four sets of parents in civil court - this was trespassing and certainly not accidental. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">You betcha. Make the sprats' parents pay for not raising their children to be decent human beings. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif</span>

Sing Mia Song

Aug. 26, 2005, 07:50 AM

About five years ago, we had a stray dog at our referral center who had been set on fire by some kids. They poured butane over him and lit him up. He was burned over 60 percent of his body. He lived--four months in the hospital and five surgeries later, he went home with his new family. The police officer investigating the case came to visit him several times, and told me that there were other dogs that didn't make it. He was pretty sure he knew who it was, but he couldn't get enough evidence to make an arrest. It was incredibly frustrating to him, because he really cared.

Those of you in the Baltimore area might remember KB. He stands out as my favorite patient ever. I think these girls should have to care for this animal, 24/7, and see her pain like we saw KB's.

FrenchFrytheEqHorse

Aug. 26, 2005, 07:55 AM

As many *insane* teenagers there are out there (myself included hehe), I must say, I am MORE suprised by the overwhelming number of ADULTS that do things equally or more awful. I do not appreciate the "i am shocked by what teenagers are capable of"- what about I am shocked by what people in general are capable of? As outgoing as I like to consider myself, I have a hard time interacting with older people that stereotype my generation this way.
That being said, this is HORRRRRIBLE. I do hope the horse owner seeks out some sort of settlement in civil court. And as a side note, these girls are obviously troubled and I would also hope that their punishment would incude some sort of mandatory therapy/counseling. These "awful teenagers" have a much higher chance of turning things around than the fully grown 45 year old man that beats his dog and starves his horses...

Astraled

Aug. 26, 2005, 07:59 AM

I agree; It's appalling what people are capable of http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif. Jingles for the poor filly http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

onelanerode

Aug. 26, 2005, 07:59 AM

FrenchFry, I said "some" ... definitely not all. I'm not too far out of my teen years myself, and I'm not attempting to paint every teen with the same brush. I know there are far more teens out there who are just as disgusted as I am. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Aug. 26, 2005, 08:05 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> There's probably something going on with these girls at home or at school, and all too often these cases end in court prosecution but no attempts to address the psychological cause of the problem. Sometimes it's an isolated incidence of teenage stupidity, but more often it's a warning sign of even worse things to come. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This sentiment really upsets me. Having been a teacher and principal for 12 years in some of the most horrendous environments you can imagine....allowing criminals to use their personal problems as an excuse is one more way they don't have to accept responsibility for their own actions. My students came from nightmare homes, yet treated the strays around campus as if they were royalty. To do something so cruel and then use homelife as an acceptable excuse makes the crime worse in my opinion. Yes, this is a sign there are deeper problems...but at some point these kids took the hairspray and the match and put them on that poor defenseless sweet horse. So really I don't care what the excuse is ... bottom line - is they need to be held accountable for their actions.

And there may be some serious home issues going on...if so deal with the parents accordingly - they too should be punished for neglect and abuse.

Bottom line - there is NO acceptable excuse for what was done to that horse.

shakeytails

Aug. 26, 2005, 08:14 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And if the woman was away for 3 days and did or did not have people coming in to feed and water - DOES NOT RELATE TO WHAT WAS DONE TO THE HORSE! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't mean by my earlier post that it lessens the crime in any way, the girls should be punished severely. And being the cold-hearted person I am I believe in eliminating sociopaths like this through euthanasia- we destroy nasty dogs, why not people?

However, the extent of the horse's injuries, especially the infection that has spread to her leg, could have been mitigated by timely care.

Aggie4Bar

Aug. 26, 2005, 08:27 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FrenchFrytheEqHorse:
I do not appreciate the "i am shocked by what teenagers are capable of"- what about I am shocked by what people in general are capable of? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I can agree with that. I grew up in a country where 12 year olds were considered adults and were held to the same standard and same laws as adults. While that is extreme, it's amazing the level of maturity expressed by even the youngest teens when held to a strict accountability. Maturity is a funny thing. In my observation, people mature to a certain level and then stay at that level regardless of their chronological age. It doesn't surprise me to hear an 80-year old say, "I'm still 21 in my head. My body just got old." So yes, FrenchFry has a very valid point to me: it is not surprising what people can do.

Back to the point... The problem, as I see it, is that accountability is missing and we (society) keep lowering the bar for what is acceptable behaviour. I'm sure people will argue, "Oh, she was only 15. She's a child. Setting the horse on fire was only a prank." The fact of the matter is that 15 years old are quite capable of discerning right from wrong and making adult decisions. Trouble at home may have helped shape the little tyrants into what they are, but it took more than that. Years of getting away with everything and having people make excuses for them based on "only a child" are, IMO, what contributed to such bloody high self-esteem that the well being of another creature became completely insignificant. A slap on the wrist only enforces the problem. Community service? Too easy. Give them the maximum sentence and put their little butts through boot camp as part of that sentence.

Hidden

Aug. 26, 2005, 08:46 AM

OMG.. that is soooo bad..I cry reading it. I just had a nasty run in with some young teens who were calling my house constantly and generally harrassing me.(this went on for a week before the cops found them) They even called other places and left my phone number with obnoxious messages about lost pets. I did get the cops on them and while I didn't press charges I could have. They were rich and had a restricted phone number so I couldn't use the normal phone company methods to track them down. I worried that I was wasting the Police time with such a trivial thing.. but then I figured perhaps I can put a bit of "fear" back on them and stop them before they hurt others... I see this sort of phone call harrassment as one step away from animal abuse.. something that can't fight back and that I why I pursued it.

Trakehner

Aug. 26, 2005, 10:20 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ESG:<span class="ev_code_GREEN">I don't give a rat's ass what's "going on at home" with these kids - they've tortured and maimed a completely defenseless animal that did nothing to them! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif I hope they throw their asses in jail and throw away the key. AND they should be prosecuted as adults, not sent to juvie playgroup. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif</span> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Such wisdom....

"It's unusual for females to commit this sort of crime."

Huh? Where've you been? Girls are just as violent, it's just more hidden and excused. No group, boy or girl, has the copyright on evil.

I hope these evil thugs are made to suffer. I think shaving their heads would be a good start and several hundred hours of effort...say, working at this woman's barn doing every disagreeable task that comes down the pike. Maybe having their parents along with them might help too!

Ya' know what will happen though? They'll sniff and shed a tear, their scum lawyer will come up with gems like, "But your honor, look at my clients, they're just young defenseless little girls, it was an accident, they were trying to get the burrs out of the horse's tail and a spark set her tail on fire...haven't they already suffered enough?"

And a bubble-headed judge will wipe a tear and think of his nice normal daughter and how "girls don't do stuff like this" and they'll get away with it....Never happen? Just remember all the girls who kill their newborns and get away with it (e.g. the skank who was at a school dance, had her kid in the bathroom, drowned her in the toilet and then went back to the dance?...she got away with it.)

relocatedTXjumpr

Aug. 26, 2005, 10:25 AM

2 boys in South GA were sentenced today for setting a puppy on fire.

They say the dog will be fine and adopted out. The kids got off easy because they are under 18.

Makes me sick.

Applesauce

Aug. 26, 2005, 11:16 AM

Ted Bundy tortured animals before he became a serial killer. So did most of the other notable serial killers.

What's it going to take to make the justice system WAKE THE HELL UP???

GoForAGallop

Aug. 26, 2005, 11:34 AM

"The fact of the matter is that 15 years old are quite capable of discerning right from wrong and making adult decisions."

Aggie4Bar, you could not be more right. I'm 15 myself, and while some of my peers are not nescessarily the most mature and intelligent, they sure as hell are intelligent enough to be held responsible for their actions.

If I can work for and support a horse all by myself, they can take the blame for what they did.

And their parents should be punished as well. While I'm allowed to go to friend's houses and out pretty much whenever I please (since I've proved my responsibility; they're more careful with my sister) my parents ALWAYS know where I'm going, and what I'll be doing while I'm there.

olympicprincess

Aug. 26, 2005, 11:52 AM

You know what else concerns me besides the crime itself? She gives lessons & hosts camp. A lot of the photos on her website show girls of those ages riding.... What if she knows these girls? ....that would be even more painful.

Q: WHY can't the horse communicate with others if it loses it's tail?

imissvixen

Aug. 26, 2005, 11:54 AM

I saw the horse on tv last night with its owner. It looked pretty well cared for so I am not sure what the deal is with her being away for three days. I am surprised that the horse would have made it for three days in that condition. Her tail was literally a burned wick and her hindquarters are burned and looking like they may be getting infected. It appeared that the lady had her covered in Swat as it was very pink. It was brutally hot here recently so the poor borse couldn't have had this happen at a worse time. And I think the lady was starting to feel the pain of the vet bills. I was thinking about sending something for the horse...

olympicprincess

Aug. 26, 2005, 11:57 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It appeared that the lady had her covered in Swat as it was very pink. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Burns can be very pink as well. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

jn4jenny

Aug. 26, 2005, 12:00 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ESG:
<span class="ev_code_GREEN">I don't give a rat's ass what's "going on at home" with these kids - they've tortured and maimed a completely defenseless animal that did nothing to them! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif I hope they throw their asses in jail and throw away the key. AND they should be prosecuted as adults, not sent to juvie playgroup. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif</span> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

AHEM. kb and ESG, I believe the FIRST SENTENCE of my original post was as follows:

"That's horrible and I hope those girls get punished to the full extent of the law"

Please hold back the emotional tirades for three seconds and use your reading comprehension skills before jumping all over me. The reason I even brought up the "must be something behind this" issue at all is because of what I mentioned at the END of the post, which is that if nobody bothers to figure out WHY this sort of thing happens, it could not only happen again, it could be WORSE the next time. Do you want YOUR horse's tail lit on fire!? Of course not. Then maybe you should be interested in any warning signs that such irrational teens exhibit BEFORE they go and do something awful like this.

Yes, these girls should be punished. And while we're busy spending tax money on them, somebody should send in a social worker to figure out what the hell was going on in their heads.

imissvixen

Aug. 26, 2005, 12:05 PM

I see the newscast is on the WRAL website so you can see what the poor horse looks like. I wonder what will happen to those girls and how we can find out. Don't they conceal the names of juvenile offenders? Is there a way to apply pressure to make sure that they are suitably punished? I am not sure what the process would be other than to start writing letters to the local paper.

Aug. 26, 2005, 12:26 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jn4jenny:
playgroup. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/color] </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

AHEM. kb and ESG, I believe the FIRST SENTENCE of my original post was as follows:

"That's horrible and I hope those girls get punished to the full extent of the law"
[/QUOTE]

I did read that and I did not mean to imply that you were saying these girls should not be punished...I just said that I get upset when poor home lives are mentioned as a rationale as to why it happened. Too many people have poor home lives and don't act out in this manner. The flip side is that sometimes kids have great home situations and they still act out. As I said in my post - if there is a bad home situation that should be addressed as well. Both sides of the issue should be addressed - but at some point responsibility and accountability should be accepted. What they did was wrong...and there is no excuse for it.

ESG

Aug. 26, 2005, 01:59 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jn4jenny:
AHEM. kb and ESG, I believe the FIRST SENTENCE of my original post was as follows:

"That's horrible and I hope those girls get punished to the full extent of the law"

<span class="ev_code_GREEN">I read it. I understood it. I agree with it. </span>

Please hold back the emotional tirades for three seconds and use your reading comprehension skills before jumping all over me.

<span class="ev_code_GREEN">I didn't jump on you; I just made a statement that I don't give a damn why they did it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif</span>

The reason I even brought up the "must be something behind this" issue at all is because of what I mentioned at the END of the post, which is that if nobody bothers to figure out WHY this sort of thing happens, it could not only happen again, it could be WORSE the next time.

<span class="ev_code_GREEN">And as I said before, I don't give a $h!t why they did it - I just want the authorities to make sure it doesn't happen again.

And even IF one DID find out "what's going on at home", what good would that do?
There comes a time when kids have to take responsibility for their actions. Anyone who could do something as heinous as this needs to be snatched up and shaken up NOW. </span>

Do you want YOUR horse's tail lit on fire!? Of course not. Then maybe you should be interested in any warning signs that such irrational teens exhibit BEFORE they go and do something awful like this.

<span class="ev_code_GREEN">Gee, you don't ASSume much, do you? First of all, you don't know if the owner had any contact with these little monsters, or if she did, what kind of contact she did have. And anyway, since when is it anyone's job so psychoanalyze everyone whose path you cross? You make it sound like it's the owner's fault, that she could have done something to prevent this atrocity! Geez!</span>

Yes, these girls should be punished. And while we're busy spending tax money on them, somebody should send in a social worker to figure out what the hell was going on in their heads. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_GREEN">Nah, just send 'em to Texas; we deal with felons quite handily here. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif</span>

Gayla

Aug. 26, 2005, 03:07 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Trakehner:

Such wisdom....

"It's unusual for females to commit this sort of crime."

Huh? Where've you been? Girls are just as violent, it's just more hidden and excused. No group, boy or girl, has the copyright on evil.

I hope these evil thugs are made to suffer. I think shaving their heads would be a good start and several hundred hours of effort...say, working at this woman's barn doing every disagreeable task that comes down the pike. Maybe having their parents along with them might help too!

Ya' know what will happen though? They'll sniff and shed a tear, their scum lawyer will come up with gems like, "But your honor, look at my clients, they're just young defenseless little girls, it was an accident, they were trying to get the burrs out of the horse's tail and a spark set her tail on fire...haven't they already suffered enough?"

And a bubble-headed judge will wipe a tear and think of his nice normal daughter and how "girls don't do stuff like this" and they'll get away with it....Never happen? Just remember all the girls who kill their newborns and get away with it (e.g. the skank who was at a school dance, had her kid in the bathroom, drowned her in the toilet and then went back to the dance?...she got away with it.) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I am sorry but you are just scarey!! First of all, girls do NOT commit violent crimes at the same rate as boys, get your facts straight. I think that the fact that this crime is unusual for girls makes it more disturbing. I don't know what state y'all live in but down here in Florida kids are hung out to dry. But unfortunately in a state where children are treated as adults animals are not thought of as much more than property. Sorry. These girls have bad problems and I am sure they will spend some time in jail. I think it would be wonderful for the parents to pay the vet bills. If anyone knows this woman she should know that there are funds set aside for victims of crimes to recover, before the courts have had time to do anything.

Spurt

Aug. 26, 2005, 04:07 PM

Thats awful! The kids probably didn't have the best upbringing, but that no excuse for doing something to that filly.

I wish when people do things to animals like that, that they treat the animal as a person in a court case and those kids would get seriously charged. Next time, instead of being a 2 year old filly it will be a 2 year old child.

I wish more people would use birth control!

ESG

Aug. 26, 2005, 04:14 PM

Or that abortion were retroactive. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

imissvixen

Aug. 26, 2005, 04:27 PM

Hey, there are some efforts afoot to raise money to help the horse. I donated a little. Here is a link to the article.

Animal Cruelty Case Draws Response From Across Country (http://www.wral.com/news/4903444/detail.html)

ise@ssl

Aug. 26, 2005, 04:51 PM

Didn't have the right upbringing? In a society that feels children are the center of the universe and have to be focused on all the time. They need to express themselves wherever they are even if it means bothering everyone else around them. They don't need to respect anyone...especially adults! That everything is disposable - even in this instance ...a horse's tail.

We reap what we sow baby - indulge kids all the time and they have no limits.

I keep praying for a follow up story that their parents beat the living **it out of them and the police had to be called to pull them off. Because that's what would have happened to kids who did this when I was that age.

Harming animals in a very cruel way is a serious issue. Most serial killers start out harming and killing animals.

I agree - these monsters need to spend some time in a four wall cell. Or picking up trash along some interstate wearing orange jumpsuits.

Rt66Kix

Aug. 26, 2005, 05:20 PM

Give me 5 minutes, with each girl, in a stall with a dressage whip and a brand new farrier's rasp.

Then y'all can have them to set their hair on fire and watch THEM run screaming through the pasture.

I sent $25 to Paypal to help with expenses. This just makes me SICK. I hope that someone local will organize a campaign to keep pressure on the local authorities to penalize them to the max.

I will cross post this to all my horse groups in hope of getting more money for the horse, and also to raise awareness of this type of crime.

Onelanerode, could you keep us abreast of further developments? Or where to call/email to make sure the legal powers-that-be throw the book at them?

MyArgie

Aug. 26, 2005, 05:59 PM

i'm sure these girls were horribly disturbed, had terrible pasts...bla bla bla. maybe they didn't have the presence of mind to know what they were doing was wrong.......i don't care, IMHO they should both have their hair set on fire. no joke. (and this is why i will never have children!)

Trakehner

Aug. 26, 2005, 06:11 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I am sorry but you are just scarey!! First of all, girls do NOT commit violent crimes at the same rate as boys, get your facts straight. I think that the fact that this crime is unusual for girls makes it more disturbing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Check out the uniform crime statistics put out the DOJ, girls are no longer just emotional attackers, they're physically violent. Things have changed. What seems to be shocking is these were white suburban girls. Evil is evil, it's not sex linked.

Trakehner

Aug. 26, 2005, 06:20 PM

This is from the website from the Champange Horse Association. They tell the story and have photos. They're also taking donations for the young horse.

Here's the story of these evil whores:

"The girls, between the ages of 12 and 15, have a history of animal cruelty and arson. The girls bragged to classmates about committing the heinous deed and described how Dixie ran screaming across the field with her tail on fire."

Anyone still give a damn about their backgrounds and making excuses for these scum? Hopefully, they'll suffer sometime in their lives like they've made other animals suffer. If there is a hell, they've a place waiting for them.

Heinz 57

Aug. 26, 2005, 06:31 PM

Makes me glad there are VIDEO CAMERAS in our barn. That, and I think anyone trying to light my horse on fire would have the living crap beat out of them by my horse, as gentle as he may be. Then it'd be my turn.

Sad thing is, these aren't really the type of people who are easily convinced to 'change'. Jerry Springer, anyone?

onelanerode

Aug. 26, 2005, 06:37 PM

Folks, here's a slightly more detailed thread on the N.C. Horse News board. There will probably be more updates here than on the WRAL Web site (or at least they'll be on here first).
http://forum.nchorsenews.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19726&whichpage=1 (http://forum.nchorsenews.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19726&whichpage=1)

Here's what else I found:
According to the most recent WRAL article, the sheriff's office is urging the Harnett Co. District Attorney, who I believe is Thomas H. Lock, not to do a plea deal.

(this came from http://www.harnett.org)
Thomas H. Lock
P.O. Box 1029
Smithfield, NC 27577

CORRECT PHONE NUMBER: 910-814-4500

Thomas.H.Lock@NCCOURTS.ORG (this came from http://www.nc.gov)
Interestingly enough, PETA has sent him several letters regarding animal abuse in Harnett County, including one letter about four Harnett County teenagers charged with abusing a pregnant goat. (This was obtained through Google.)

Their contact info for him:
The Honorable Thomas H. Lock
District Attorney, 11th Prosecutorial District
P.O. Box 2259
Lillington, NC 27546

Briggsie

Aug. 26, 2005, 06:48 PM

Personally, this makes me extremely angry. I hate to say it...but the owner of that horse is way too nice...Had it been me, and I really dont care if I would go to jail for the rest of my life, because it would be so worth it...I would probably nab them up, duct tape them in their sleep, hand cuff them to a treadmil, set it on high, make them drink horse piss, then cut their ugly fat heads off and stick them their parents doorsteps. Yeah, I know...that is pretty psycho...but hey. I usually can only take teenagers in small doses anyway, a few less to worry about.

ESG

Aug. 26, 2005, 06:48 PM

Oh, God. I just read the thread that said that these monsters have done this BEFORE?!?!? That they're known to be animal abusers? So why is it taking any time at all for these monsters to be arrested on a felony charge?

Who do I need to call or bombard with e-mails to make sure these wretches get treated like adults and charged with felonies? Can we start a COTH petition or e-mail assault? Please, someone who knows, give us this info. We cannot allow this sort of thing to go unpunished. Time to send a message. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

mairzeadoats

Aug. 26, 2005, 07:29 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by shakeytails:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And if the woman was away for 3 days and did or did not have people coming in to feed and water - DOES NOT RELATE TO WHAT WAS DONE TO THE HORSE! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't mean by my earlier post that it lessens the crime in any way, the girls should be punished severely. And being the cold-hearted person I am I believe in eliminating sociopaths like this through euthanasia- we destroy nasty dogs, why not people?

However, the extent of the horse's injuries, especially the infection that has spread to her leg, could have been mitigated by timely care. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you on the euthanasia. On the other hand, death by injection may be too easy for them. So maybe a life sentence in a burn ward. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

However, your second statement suggests that the owner was negligent. The newspaper article does make it sound as though the horses were left unattended for three days. HOWEVER, if you read through the all articles, the in-laws appear to have been caring for the horses while the owners were away and made Dixie as comfortable as possible. The photos show the progression from the day it happened to today. The initial photo shows little to no sign of infection.

We don't know which "vacation day" it happened on, but it seems likely that the in-laws would have contacted the owners if possible. So they probably were on their way home...

perfectionist

Aug. 26, 2005, 08:38 PM

I am a school principal for students that have been "removed" from their regular schools. I have seen all kinds, and I too am tired of the excuses that some parents/guardians and even educators make for the behaviors of children. In KY, juvenile (less than 18 years of age) records are "sealed" and are not made public. BAD IDEA. I think if they were made public maybe it would shame the families into being "parents" instead of just making babies.

Additionally, research has shown that people with a history of abusing animals may be pre-disposed to more violent crimes. Jeffrey Dohmer (sp?) abused animals when he was young, as did several other serial killers.

I am not sure of the laws in NC, but in most states, juveniles get off with a slap on the hand. Here in KY most juveniles I have dealt with just scoff at the juvenile justice system. The only thing it accomplishes is it does inconvenience the parents/parent by having to attend court. Also, in KY parents are financially responsible for what a minor does to someone elses' property. Maybe in NC too?

Phaxxton

Aug. 26, 2005, 08:41 PM

My letter is sent. I may be in NY now, but I'm still an NC resident.

I am absolutely and utterly horrified by this. These girls deserve to be severely punished and also deserve intense psychological therapy. Stastics are not on their side - such people are likely to reoffend, often against more defesnseless animals and people.

This cannot be taken lightly.

My heart goes out to the poor horse and her owners. I cannot imagine the physical and emotional anguish.

My heart also goes out to the offenders and their families. People with the capability of committing such heinous acts certainly need some prayers.

J Swan

Aug. 27, 2005, 04:43 AM

Trakehener - I think I'm right about girls not committing violent crimes at the same rate as boys - but I agree that the gap is rapidly shrinking - as is the age at which the crimes are committed.

I don't think juveniles should be mollycoddled when they commit crimes. These kids didn't toilet paper a teacher's house for cryin out loud.

And they bragged about it - and they have a history of arson and animal abuse? Lock em up and throw away the key. They're done. I don't mind my taxes going to house violent criminals for life. I'd rather they spend life in prison than be my next door neighbor in 5 years.....

Or better yet, shoot, shovel and shut up.

macmtn

Aug. 27, 2005, 05:10 AM

quote"So maybe a life sentence in a burn ward."

Having spent WAAAYY too much time in a burn ward (on the receiving end of care) I can say with honesty that would be a fitting punishment... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

mrs.smith

Aug. 27, 2005, 06:27 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Trakehner:
This is from the website from the Champange Horse Association. They tell the story and have photos. They're also taking donations for the young horse.

Here's the story of these evil whores:

"The girls, between the ages of 12 and 15, have a history of animal cruelty and arson. The girls bragged to classmates about committing the heinous deed and described how Dixie ran screaming across the field with her tail on fire."

Anyone still give a damn about their backgrounds and making excuses for these scum? Hopefully, they'll suffer sometime in their lives like they've made other animals suffer. If there is a hell, they've a place waiting for them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Couldn't have said it better myself. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

ise@ssl

Aug. 27, 2005, 09:05 AM

I too object to sealed records for juveniles. If they turn their life around it speaks the their character that the did. If they don't at least you are forwarned.

Open records on anyone who as abused animals. How would you like to move in and find out the "kids" next door had a history of tormenting animals?? After you had spent a lot of money buying a farm? How would you like to have some person come to look at horses for sale and find out later that they were just scoping out your farm and THEY had a history of starving animals or hurting them?

This is so sick - it makes me angry.

Also there are current national crime statistics showing that young girls perpetrating physical violence on others is on a significant increase in this country - and at very young ages. Other posters are correct - this isn't about gender.

Windline

Aug. 27, 2005, 09:11 AM

God that is incredibly disturbing! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

3fatponies

Aug. 27, 2005, 09:33 AM

In addition to all the previously suggested punishments, I would also suggest sterilization. These girls' bloodlines are CLEARLY flawed....

Iron Horse Farm

Aug. 27, 2005, 09:44 AM

I agree 3fatponies........the gene pool needs a little chlorine!

Holly
http://www.ironhorsefrm.com

onelanerode

Aug. 27, 2005, 11:18 AM

Folks, the phone number I posted earlier is incorrect. The correct number is 910-814-4500 ... that's what I get for *ass*uming the county's Web site would be current. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Trakehner

Aug. 27, 2005, 07:09 PM

Personally, I like the idea of them in a burn ward...not as volunteers though....

ESG

Aug. 27, 2005, 08:42 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 3fatponies:
In addition to all the previously suggested punishments, I would also suggest sterilization. These girls' bloodlines are CLEARLY flawed.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or perhaps, just lacking some good old fashioned PARENTING?!?!? I still think people should be licensed to be parents. You have to have a license to drive a car or motorcycle, and today's teens seem infinitely more dangerous. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

olympicprincess

Aug. 27, 2005, 10:57 PM

There are pictures:

WARNING: <span class="ev_code_RED">Graphic photos</span>

http://www.chboa.com/dixie.html

I never realized how long a horse's tail bone is (you can see the end of it in the top photo).

Broke my heart to read that she was put in a stall to be more comfortable rather than getting out the vet to give her painkillers. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif Another reason why we should all give instructions to our caretakers to go ahead and seek vet assistance when needed.

mairzeadoats

Aug. 28, 2005, 02:38 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 1Nation:

Broke my heart to read that she was put in a stall to be more comfortable rather than getting out the vet to give her painkillers. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif Another reason why we should all give instructions to our caretakers to go ahead and seek vet assistance when needed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

1st Nation, I agree we need to be sure caretakers have good instructions when we're away.

Reporters aren't horse people, so they don't necessarily ask the questions horsepeople would ask, or report the specific facts that concern us. They also can't control what their editors remove. And so on.

All we really know is that the poor filly was set on fire while the owners were away. That 4 teenage sociopathic monsters with a history of arson and animal torture bragged and laughed about it at school, and are now the prime suspects. And, from the photos, the horses generally appear to be well cared for and in good condition.

We don't know what arrangements for care were made while the owners were away. We don't know exactly when the viscious monsters did it. We don't know when the caretakers found her. We don't know who they called first, owner or vet. We don't know who arrived first, owner or vet. And we don't know what care may or may not have been given.

Second guessing or attacking the victims without any facts seems unfair and just plain cruel.

HiddenPondFarm

Aug. 28, 2005, 04:06 PM

I sent a very long e-mail to the DA. I live about 2 counties away from where this happened. I am in shock. I was in tears. I would have a very, VERY hard time not choking the crap out of those girls if it was my horse. Actually, I'd probably have a hard time not choking them without it being my horse.

imissvixen

Aug. 28, 2005, 04:23 PM

Okay, I sent the DA an email.

3fatponies

Aug. 28, 2005, 04:41 PM

Sent the DA an email, too--the more public pressure, the harder it will be for the judge to let these disgusting monsters off.

Everyone who is appauled should call or email to put pressure on the courts.

CosmosMariner

Aug. 28, 2005, 05:45 PM

What is wrong with those girls? I am shocked to hear that anyone could do something like this. Were these girls who rode at the stable or were they just looking for kicks? I cannot believe it. This makes me so sad. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

mairzeadoats

Aug. 28, 2005, 06:02 PM

It dawned on me this afternoon that since the oldest of the gang is only 15, they probably are neighbors http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Jumpers21

Aug. 28, 2005, 06:10 PM

Ugh, I just looked at the pictures and am HORRIFIED at the thought someone could do that to this mare, then laugh about it!

I agree to all of the suggested punishements...especially the idea involving the dressage whip, and the one involving shaving all of their heads. May I add, after their heads are shaved, someone should tattoo "I'M AN A$$*!@#" on those bald scalps!

Instant Karma

Aug. 28, 2005, 06:32 PM

Let's save future tax dollars, take care of these scum right now. Kids who do this type of thing turn into adults who do this type of thing.

An eye for an eye would make them hesitate to do it again.

horse_poor

Aug. 28, 2005, 07:02 PM

Jesus God...this makes me want to vomit...

I do not care what kind of problems these girls had, blah blah blah--studies show animal torture as children shows a tenedency to become a serial killer--yet no one seems to care about this.

I am writing an email to the DA as we speak. The thought of that poor filly hauling ass across a field with her tail on fire makes me sick...

Instant Karma

Aug. 29, 2005, 09:27 AM

The line where they all bragged to their friends how Dixie ran screaming across the field with her tail on fire, actually makes me sick to my stomach.

I can't even think of a fitting sentence for these girls. How awful. And our humanitarian society certainly wouldn't agree with what I think is a fitting punishment.

Seahorsefarmtobe

Aug. 29, 2005, 09:38 AM

My EM sent to DA

ChocoMare

Aug. 29, 2005, 09:40 AM

How utterly sickening. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif That poor filly http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

Let's pray for a DA and a judge who have BACKBONE enough to put those girls away...and put 'em in Big Girls Jail, not juvie hall.

Jingles for the filly and her owner.

J Swan

Aug. 29, 2005, 10:08 AM

I sent an email too - though I doubt it will do much good.

They'll probably be let off with a slap on the wrist.

Then, a couple of years from now, we'll read about one or more of them killing a child they were babysitting - and then their previous crimes will come to light and everyone will start pointing fingers at the courts, the parents, etc.

That's what happens.

pegasus209

Aug. 29, 2005, 10:29 AM

I can't bear to look at the pics-- I know my fury will overtake me! I'm sorry but why not just do away with people like this? Earth is too crowded. Cruelty like this should not be tolerated - EVER. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Aggie4Bar

Aug. 29, 2005, 10:47 AM

I just looked at the photos, and if it were me, I'd be inclined to put the horse down. That is a terrible, terrible injury. In addition to the tail, the second seems to also show severe burns to her anus and vulva. She's just charred. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

As for the girls, I stand by my previous post: put their little butts in prison boot camp. Shave their heads, give them uniforms and an ID number, and let some prison guard teach them how insignificant they are. Let them earn back every teeny priviledge they once took for granted, including the luxery of having a name, through forced labour.

mairzeadoats

Aug. 29, 2005, 11:43 AM

There are some new articles posted and updates on Dixie's condition.

Good: the police have the 4 monsters in for questioning now and expect to charge them by Friday.

VERY BAD: according to the article, they won't be arrested and will only get charged as juveniles. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif My letter to the DA and to the office of the DA will be out by today. This is an outrage. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Good: There is some bleeding around her tail area, so the area is getting blood and oxygen. They've been able to bandage to worst parts of the wound to protect from flies. There also is sensation in the parts of the tail that aren't still covered with charred skin. Much of the dead skin is being debrided away.

A nurse has been helping with her care.

Also good: the swelling in her leg appears to be from a local lower-grade burn rather than spreading infection. They also discovered low-grade burns on her nose -- apparently she tried to bite the fire out. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

Best news: She showed some interest in grass yesterday or day before, so they took her out to hand graze. Turned her loose in paddock to graze -- she ran around bucking!!!!

Flora

Aug. 29, 2005, 01:26 PM

They should have to spend the rest of their lives flicking away flies for Dixie.......

perfectionist

Aug. 29, 2005, 01:39 PM

I still think juvenile records should be open. If they turn their life around, so be it. But MOST OF THEM DO NOT. Would you want to build a barn near serial juvenile delinquents? Society has a RIGHT TO KNOW who is along side of them. I have to monitor sex offenders that have been released and assure my staff recognizes them if they see them. Not that I think being a sex offender is not serious, but I think if YOU DO THE CRIME YOU SHOULD DO THE TIME!

History has show the juvenile system has gone from a "punitive" (punishment) to rehab back to punitive and back to rehab in dealing with juvnenile crime. Here in the last few weeks a seven year old shot and killed his mother's husband or maybe it was just her live in, but seven years old! Now what do you think will happen to him? Someone will label him as ADD, ADHD, ODD (defiant disorder), or some other label to get the parent a "crazy check" as they call it, where all that is wrong with many of these kids is they are BAD! No parenting, or parents putting them on a pedestal......

Our society's expectations of children appears to have declined so badly in the past years. What does the future hold? To have four girls, and girls usually LOVE horses, to set fire to one. What do you think they would do to YOU if they came across you in a dark mall parking lot?

I still think open records on juvenile records may help some. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ise@ssl:
I too object to sealed records for juveniles. If they turn their life around it speaks the their character that the did. If they don't at least you are forwarned.

Open records on anyone who as abused animals. How would you like to move in and find out the "kids" next door had a history of tormenting animals?? After you had spent a lot of money buying a farm? How would you like to have some person come to look at horses for sale and find out later that they were just scoping out your farm and THEY had a history of starving animals or hurting them?

This is so sick - it makes me angry.

Also there are current national crime statistics showing that young girls perpetrating physical violence on others is on a significant increase in this country - and at very young ages. Other posters are correct - this isn't about gender. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Arwen

Aug. 29, 2005, 01:52 PM

I have been following this since it was posted and I am shocked that anyone could perform such a horrendous act let alone the fact that they are teenage girls boggles my mind.I just sent a mail to the DA and can only pray that this case is treated as the serious criminal act that it is.

Sandy M

Aug. 29, 2005, 03:21 PM

As horrific as it may be, a big part of the problem - as it is with many abuse cases - is that horses are regarded as mere PROPERTY. While individual judges or prosecutors may be morally outraged, the law still treats the animals as property, and therefore the penalties, especially for juveniles, are not all that severe.

Look at all those cases on the Animal Planet Heroes shows, where someone literally starves a horse to death, and gets, at most, 90 days in jail and a $1,000 fine. Like that's going stop them from buying another cheap (or expensive) horse and abusing it! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif Nope, they'll just be a little more careful not to get caught.

mairzeadoats

Aug. 29, 2005, 04:58 PM

One thing I'm hoping is that since these vicious little sociapaths bragged about their horrendous act to classmates, their identities *will* get out despite "the system's" attempt to protect the precious little darlings. So that local people will have some warning.

I too disagree with "sealed records" for juveniles *and* the special protections some states *still* give to sex offenders of all ages.

Before I moved here I had a registered sex offender move into an immediately adjacent condo unit. He harrassed me 24x7 for 3 years straight while the condo manager protected him (apparently was a relative of his http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif). I can assure you that the person who bought my condo was forewarned AND forearmed. Massachusetts may keep the police from warning unfortunate neighbors about the criminal in their midst, and the courts may prevent people within their system from warning us. But they can't stop bystanders from warning each other!

horse_poor

Aug. 29, 2005, 07:59 PM

I will also send the email as a letter to the DA--in my email, I mentioned that the nation was watching this story and it would NOT make that county look good to let these repeat offenders get away with this...especially as everyone is up in arms about the MN judge who let the lowlife go on a low bail that kidnapped little Shasta and her brother (we all know how that ended)-he had quite the record, and it started a long time ago....

I was telling non horse people at work about this today and they turned green and said they did not want to hear anymore and I told them "Tough, I am gonna tell ya anyway, because ignoring things like this will not make it go away."

DeLapp512

Aug. 29, 2005, 08:37 PM

I just read this thread, and I can't believe it. I can't even imagine this happening. Have they found out how the girls are linked? Like did they live near, or know the owner of the farm, etc?

I wanted to send a letter to the DA, but not at all sure how to word it. I'm not great at that sort of stuff.
Any way someone could PT me with theres to see how its formatted, and I will send one in, as well as tell pretty much everyone I know to do so as well.

bjrudq

Aug. 30, 2005, 06:37 AM

wow, i can't BELEIVE the amount of ignorance and vitriol displayed by some of you!

"They'll sniff and shed a tear, their scum lawyer will come up with gems like, "But your honor, look at my clients, they're just young defenseless little girls, it was an accident, they were trying to get the burrs out of the horse's tail and a spark set her tail on fire...haven't they already suffered enough?"

well, i guess i shouldn't take this TOO seriously; after all, it's trakehner talking and i gotta consider the source!

as a "scum lawyer" who has represented many juveniles, i can assure you that this is not the type of argument i would make.

the number of male clients i've had FAR outnumbers the female clients. almost EVERY female client i've had has been a victim of sexual abuse, incest or rape. many young girls act out with RAGE.

do i think that's the case here? NO. of course, i have NO IDEA (and neither do you) but these girls seem to be sadistic and have a mob mentalitiy, and i am not sure where that comes from becasue i've never dealt with it before.

here's another uninformed comment:

"Didn't have the right upbringing? In a society that feels children are the center of the universe and have to be focused on all the time. They need to express themselves wherever they are even if it means bothering everyone else around them. They don't need to respect anyone...especially adults! That everything is disposable - even in this instance ...a horse's tail.

We reap what we sow baby - indulge kids all the time and they have no limits."

bullshit. in almost every instance of juvenile delinquency I'VE seen, the kids aren't overindulged-they are IGNORED or abused. these kids are not the center of anyone's universe, especially not their parents. and what i've seen convinces me that people who beat on their kids as punishment-create kids who have no empathy and a potential for violence. and parents who ignore their kids have kids who are more likely to get into trouble.

sigh. i can't count on one hand the number of kids who show up in court with BOTH parents. and those few are not likely be back.

again, we have no idea here-this is a highly unusual crime, which is why it's NEWS.

i think these kids should be compelled to have psychological exams and follow the recommendations, be sent for lengthy detention, and have to reimburse the owner for all expenses. they should all be on probation until age 18 and sanctioned severely for violations. and they should be ordered to have NO CONTACT with each other until after they are 18. and, if they can't be made to behave at home they should have to live in a more restricted environment, away from their parents. but HERE is the PROBLEM:

"As horrific as it may be, a big part of the problem - as it is with many abuse cases - is that horses are regarded as mere PROPERTY. While individual judges or prosecutors may be morally outraged, the law still treats the animals as property, and therefore the penalties, especially for juveniles, are not all that severe."

well actually, there IS no "especially for juveniles." actually juvies have the potential for a far more serious sentence than an adult in a case like this. which is, imo, a good thing, because in addition to the punishment a long period of probation can be used to rehabilitate. with an adult, there can only be a fixed sentence.

in addition to writing the prosector you might want to write your state legislators to make sure that your state has a felony provision for animal cruelty and appropriate sentencing. this will do far more good than making stupid statements like you think these girls should be burned to death, or scalped, or some such nonsense. violence begets violence.

and yes, i would sue the parents for the damages to the horse's owner. and the state should(and in my state, would) bill the parents for the girls' out of home detention and placement.

i hope that poor filly will be ok. i hope they can figure out a way to fashion some sort of fake tail for her when she heals, so that she can swat flies.

btw, in my state, kids don't get "slapped on the wrist." they are often treated more severely than adults, and at younger and younger ages.

mairzeadoats

Aug. 30, 2005, 06:52 AM

Pacificsolo, I think your letter is excellent. I'm not going to copy it verbatim, but I hope you don't mind if I use it as a model for mine. I'm still struggling...too upset and start spewing venom, which won't help...

bjrudq

Aug. 30, 2005, 08:36 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">the number of male clients i've had FAR outnumbers the female clients. almost EVERY female client i've had has been a victim of sexual abuse, incest or rape. many young girls act out with RAGE.

While this may be true, it does not excuse the behavior. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

DID I SAY IT DID??? yeesh.

of course there has to be punitive consequnces for the behavior!

my point is that burning the girls, executing them, or scalping them is an inappropriate response. and assuming that they are spoiled and indulged is most likely a false assumption.

and IF these girls, or any of them, is a victim of abuse(and i have NO IDEA here) that needs to be addressed as part of rehabilitation.

mairzeadoats

Aug. 30, 2005, 09:10 AM

And here is my letter:

Dear Sir or Madam,

It was with horror that I read of the four teenage females who set a filly’s tail on fire in Harnett County, and then bragged and laughed about that poor horse running in fear and pain. Their behavior was extremely sadistic and demands extreme remedy.

As a human who has experienced just minor burns, I can only imagine the agony that poor horse needlessly endured and will continue to suffer, assuming that she lives. As a lifelong horse owner and former barn manager, I can well understand the anguish Dixie’s owner is undergoing, the fear of a repeat incident, and the effort and expense she is putting out to save Dixie’s life. It takes enormous skill and patience and love to treat an injured animal in pain.

According to published articles, these girls have a known history of both arson and animal torture. They need to be stopped now. I don’t know how their parents failed them, nor do I care. I don’t know anybody who’s had a perfect upbringing. Yet those I know who were neglected and/or abused did not choose to be criminals or sadists. A bad upbringing is simply no excuse for deliberately injuring and torturing others.

Please, you must stop those girls before they injure anybody else. These girls are old enough to understand right from wrong. They are old enough to understand the consequences of lighting anybody on fire. And if you think of horses as “just livestock” or “just property,” then please remember that these girls are also old enough to be babysitters. If you fail them now, their sadism will continue. What will happen when they get bored with torturing horses? Will they move on to torturing the children of unsuspecting neighbors?

These girls need to be taken out of the homes that created them, and put into tightly structured environments. They need to be held responsible and accountable for their actions. They need to financially compensate Dixie’s owner for her value, for her vet bills and for her time. They should have no free time to hurt anybody else. They need to be banned from any contact with each other. And they need to suffer in order to learn compassion.

All time outside of classrooms and therapy could be spent providing many, many hours of supervised, menial labor. Perhaps 5,000 hours (5 years, 20 hours/week) working at an animal shelter and 5,000 hours in a hospital burn ward. All “pay” to initially cover Dixie’s expenses, and then their own support. I also believe that any pets or livestock owned by their families should be removed and placed into suitable, safe adoptive homes.

Please, I’m begging you…do not let these girls off lightly and do not allow a plea bargain. Our society cannot afford any more sociopathic, sadistic criminals on the loose.

Sincerely,

Ghazzu

Aug. 30, 2005, 09:45 AM

Just a parenthetical comment:

The last place I would want to see an animal abuser is doing community service in a shelter.

Would you sentence a sex offender to work in a day care?
Or a wife beater to a women's shelter?

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"

Aug. 30, 2005, 10:01 AM

Just my opinion as to what should be done to the little bastards...

(1) hairspray their hair, set them on fire. No help from an outside source, they will have to put it out theirselves. I pesronally like the idea of tieing their hands behind their backs as well.

(2) Since the above should cause tremendous pain and scar them for life, everyone will know who they are and what they did, and they will have to deal with this the rest of their lives.

Sadly....no eye for an eye. I would truly want to see them incarcerated, with a permanent record (that if they ever wanted to be considered for scholarships or the like, would cross them off the list). In addition, they are required to earn the money to pay for all vet bills, plus pain and sufering for both horse and owner. Not mommy and daddy paying it off - no, the little shits have to earn it by their own menial labor, however long it takes.

They should also be required to do several thousand hours of community service. While I recommend working in an animal shelter, they are never to be left unsupervised with any animal. They can only clean out poopy cages or stalls.

I sent off a letter to the DA suggesting this...I hope, at least, since it is known that they did this, that at least their identities can be revealed so that all horse owners (and other animal owners) in the vicinity can keep their animals safe from these demon seed, but also so that they can be shunned.

Actually ...scratch that - don't set fire to the hair on the head - fair's fair, set fire to their pubic hair. Maybe that way they won't be able to breed either.

Sorry for the vitriol, this just makes me sick.

mairzeadoats

Aug. 30, 2005, 10:06 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ghazzu:
Just a parenthetical comment:

The last place I would want to see an animal abuser is doing community service in a shelter.

Would you sentence a sex offender to work in a day care?
Or a wife beater to a women's shelter? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're probably right; I will change that part.

I wouldn't put a sex offender into a daycare, but I would have no problem with a wife beater working in a women's shelter -- supervised. In that environment, in a structured way, a wife beater may well learn in time that woman are people.

Caring for rescue animals helped me heal from my own abusive/neglectful upbringing. And I've read about the horse taming programs helping hardcore, violent prisoners, who learned to bond at least with horses if not with people.

Outside of their "safe" environment (without their clique to support them and ringleader), surrounded by people who love animals, holding a puppy might open up their dead hearts and wake them up to the shame of their behavior. That's where my thinking is...

But those girls are not me and won't be in prison. And I'd be worried that they'd learn where the security systems are...

bjrudq

Aug. 30, 2005, 10:14 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">fair's fair, set fire to their pubic hair. Maybe that way they won't be able to breed either. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

pacificsolo-and you want ME to watch MY language? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

sorry, my child hears swearing fairly oten, but she doesn't hear her parents say such vicious stuff about other people.

where did these girls get such awful ideas? well, read this thread!

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"

Aug. 30, 2005, 10:38 AM

I did say sorry for the vitriol...I wanted to vent where I knew like minded people would understand. rest assured the letter I sent to the DA was succinct and stated only that it was my opinion, given the nature of the crime, that the accused not be considered juveniles,a nd should be prosecuted to the fiullest extent allowed by law, and that they should also be required to make full restitution.

Of course, I am also of the opinion that repeat cxhild abusers and rapists and serial murderers should have the organs given up for donation so that in some way they can make restitution, but I do appreciate that isn't going to happen.

If this had happened to my horse, I know it would be very hard to keep me down if all the offenders received was a slap on the wrist.

bwf

Aug. 30, 2005, 10:47 AM

I am so upset that kids like this never get in much trouble!!! What is with this!!! Where are these kids parents? Not to long ago we had 2 teenagers in VA, Beach one nite go and steal 2 horses, tack, and a trailer. They were found out in a few days. They only got a slap on the wrists. I do not understand how we are helping kids like this if they do not get punished.http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

EponaRoan

Aug. 30, 2005, 11:41 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I would have no problem with a wife beater working in a women's shelter -- supervised. In that environment, in a structured way, a wife beater may well learn in time that woman are people.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I were one of the women in the shelter, I'd have a problem with a wife beater working there even if he was supposedly supervised. IMO, the victim should come first. Not the criminal who they are attempting to rehab.

bjrudq

Aug. 30, 2005, 12:08 PM

wife beaters aren't allowed to work in women's shelters becasue the shelters generally do not want their locations disclosed. it's a safety issue.

it might be good for rehab-but i agree with epona, safety first.

and those women are really vulnerable and needy-the last thing any of them need is to meet and possibly become involved with another abuser. even one who thinks he's rehabilitated and has good intentions.

mairzeadoats

Aug. 30, 2005, 12:11 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by EponaRoan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I would have no problem with a wife beater working in a women's shelter -- supervised. In that environment, in a structured way, a wife beater may well learn in time that woman are people.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I were one of the women in the shelter, I'd have a problem with a wife beater working there even if he was supposedly supervised. IMO, the victim should come first. Not the criminal who they are attempting to rehab. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I grew up physically abused. My eldest sister remembers as a toddler being picked up by her hair and bounced off walls. I don't remember a lot of details, but do remember spending many, many hours of my childhood hiding under the bed, in the attic or in the woods. I got very good at disappearing right under their noses.

I also recently had a registered sex offender released into the community, who moved in next door and harrassed me 24x7 for 3 years straight. Those memories are fresh and I can easily call up my rage. I wanted to drive over his head with my car and squash it like a pumpkin. I still do if I think about it.

As a victim/survivor, I would have no problem watching either of those offenders walked in and out in shackles and forced to do supervised, menial labor. Maybe not all day, every day. Or, for woman not ready to view such a thing, maybe only on days when they are off somewhere else. But I, personally, do find some sense of satisfaction, an internal sense that there is some justice and fairness in our society, to see people who have wronged me or others pay the price. That has the potential to be therapeutic to the victim/survivor.

Remember that rehabiliting these girls will not just help them...success will mean 4 fewer sadists on the streets. While I'd like to see some people locked up forever, and others euthanized, reality is that those girls won't be doing life sentences. Someday they will be set free. Better that they spend time atoning for what they have done than feeling sorry for themselves.

In the case of an animal shelter, the animals there won't know their history. Obviously (or maybe not obviously?) it would be voluntary on the part of the shelter management and workers.

Huntertwo

Aug. 30, 2005, 01:45 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ise@ssl:
Didn't have the right upbringing? In a society that feels children are the center of the universe and have to be focused on all the time. They need to express themselves wherever they are even if it means bothering everyone else around them. They don't need to respect anyone...especially adults! That everything is disposable - even in this instance ...a horse's tail.

We reap what we sow baby - indulge kids all the time and they have no limits.

I keep praying for a follow up story that their parents beat the living **it out of them and the police had to be called to pull them off. Because that's what would have happened to kids who did this when I was that age.

Harming animals in a very cruel way is a serious issue. Most serial killers start out harming and killing animals.

I agree - these monsters need to spend some time in a four wall cell. Or picking up trash along some interstate wearing orange jumpsuits. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ISE- couldn't have said it any better. Thats were the problem lies in society today. Little Johnny can do whatever he wants, don't worry, we'll (as parents) just blame someone else.
No accountability and if we don't like the outcome, we'll sue.

There is a definite link between animal abusers and serial killers. There have been many studies done. Jeffrey Dahmer was known to put cats in wooden crates and shoot them with arrows. Luckily someone snuffed his a$$ in prison.

When they no longer get the thrill of torturing animals, humans become their next victims.

I have ZERO sympathy for animal abusers. To me they should all be sentenced as if the same crime was committed on a human. Why is it different?

I'd be the first one in line to pull the "Switch" on any animal abuser. I say fry their arses.

pegasus209

Aug. 30, 2005, 02:23 PM

mairzeadoats & pacific solo, both excellent letters. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif
There has to be someone out there who can find out the identities of these creeps... I really hope the horse community can stick together and get the word out! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

perfectionist

Aug. 30, 2005, 02:29 PM

AMEN!

blton9th

Aug. 30, 2005, 02:33 PM

First of all, my heart goes out to Dixie, and her owner! We can only hope she continues to "try." (DIXIE)
Since the girls will most likely get off rather easy, because being juveniles, I sure would like to see the parent-gaurdian do time. After all, where were they when the sick girls did this to Dixie? Perhaps if the parents were held responsible for their kids actions, maybe they would do their job, and raise their children. I am showing restraint here...... I have NO tolerance for any kind of animal abuse. I worked in our local SPCA for a couple of years, that was all I could take. The things that people would do to their animals. I do believe there is a special place in hell for people that abuse animals. MAY animal abuser ROT in HE##!

Sandy M

Aug. 30, 2005, 02:50 PM

It's different because, as I said before, horses are regarded as PROPERTY. You don't hang someone for pushing your car off a cliff, and to the "law" (As opposed to the judge or the prosecutor), a horse, dog or cat is the same as a car, or typewriter, or computer - property.

Not saying that's fair, not saying that what was done wasn't outrageous, but the penalties are relatively low for that reason. How many times have we watched "Animal Cops: Houston" and seen walking skeletons of horses, and the owner is arrested on criminal charges, but eventually fined $500 or $1,000 and MAYBE assigned a few days in jail, more likely, community service?

I don't like it either, but while I am outraged by what was done to this poor animal, I must say while I understand the anger, and while I think these girls should definitely suffer appropriate penalties, I find the bloodthirtiness appalling: Set them on fire? I don't like to use biblical quotes, but remember it goes "Vengeance is mine, SAITH THE LORD" not "is mine, saith Suzy Smith." Would you REALLY want to be the one to pull the switch, to set them on fire, to physically beat them? Do you REALLY want to lower yourself to their level?

I applaud efforts to convince the DA to give them the maximum penalty, but I find the expressions of desires to commit acts as bad they they have committed upon them really scary if they are a reflection of what people truly want to do. Sounds more like a lynch mob than justice. If you're just blowing off steam, well, whatever. I certainly understand the feeling, but otherwise....

Huntertwo

Aug. 30, 2005, 04:45 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sandy M:

I don't like it either, but while I am outraged by what was done to this poor animal, I must say while I understand the anger, and while I think these girls should definitely suffer appropriate penalties, I find the bloodthirtiness appalling: Set them on fire? I don't like to use biblical quotes, but remember it goes "Vengeance is mine, SAITH THE LORD" not "is mine, saith Suzy Smith." Would you REALLY want to be the one to pull the switch, to set them on fire, to physically beat them? Do you REALLY want to lower yourself to their level?

I applaud efforts to convince the DA to give them the maximum penalty, but I find the expressions of desires to commit acts as bad they they have committed upon them really scary if they are a reflection of what people truly want to do. Sounds more like a lynch mob than justice. If you're just blowing off steam, well, whatever. I certainly understand the feeling, but otherwise.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, but I don't think any biblical quotes are going to help Dixie or the scores of other innocent animals these monsters horribly abused.

And no, I don't consider it lowering myself to their level. Just ridding society of another bunch of low life scum bags who will keep doing this until "We the taxpayers", have to support their sorry arses in jail, when they "up" their thrills to a human victim.

So fry em'

bjrudq

Aug. 30, 2005, 05:06 PM

naw. you hold both the kids AND the parents accountable.

doesn't have to be one or the other.

but KILLING them? what the hell is wrong with some people?

blton9th

Aug. 30, 2005, 07:11 PM

ok, so the law views animals as property, I'am not happy about that, but you just can't go around and destroy other's property time and time again, and just get a little fine and smack. It just isn't right http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif I can only hope that their identity gets out, and I think people with in society will take real good care of these poor neglected unattended rotten cave girls!

chaotic mind

Aug. 30, 2005, 08:06 PM

First off I don't believe the girls did this with hairspray or perfume. If hairspary could do that then in the 50's and early 60's when beehive hairdo's and smoking were all the rage the ER's would have been flooded. I have see a horse branded that had show sheen on and it flaired but no real damage. Those girls had to be using gasoline, lighter fluid or the like to have that amount of damage occure. I think the whole perfume or hairspary theory came from a predjudice on law enforcement's part, that girls would have perfume or hairspary and only boys would play with gasoline or lighter fluid. I hope the DA figures this out. A judge might react a bit stonger to gasoline or lighter fluid.

bjrudq sorry I don't buy the old they were abused or molested as either an excuse or as a reason. I had an abusive mother. Abusive enough that my father told me before he died that every time he went to work he expected to come home and find she had killed us all. When I had to have my neck fused when I was 42 according to the doctors the cause was repeated childhood trama. The neighbor across the street molested me from the age of 9 to 13. My rap sheet consists of 1 speeding ticket and 1 following too close. If you are looking for causes look somewhere else. Genetic Sociopath would be my guess.

mairzeadoats

Aug. 31, 2005, 04:58 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">but KILLING them? what the hell is wrong with some people? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We're sick to death of living in fear of our neighbors. Fear for our lives, and the lives of our loved ones. Unless those girls stole a car, they likely were neighbors.

When they set Dixie on fire, they may have killed her. That was the likely consequence of their action. They attempted to murder Dixie, and it's too soon to say if they succeeded.

We're tired of "the system" waiting until criminals have killed one or more people before they take action. And then of taking too little action.

And we're tired of known, violent criminals being let loose on the streets. With their identities protected because *their* civil rights might be violated by the poor unknowing neighbors left to protect their families and loved ones.

One reason I moved up here is because I'll at least be allowed to defend myself. Down in Massachusetts they recently passed a law that it's illegal to use "excessive force" to defend yourself. What does that mean? That if someone breaks into your house and attacks you or your child, and you manage to inflict more damage on your attacker than they do on you...than *you're* the criminal. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

I for one now live in fear of my neighbors. I wanted to kill the sex offender that was harrassing me because for 3 years he tormented me 24x7. And now I live in fear of my new neighbors because one of them has damaged my property and was caught casing my house, I had a credit card disappear from my mail, another neighbor stole a neighbor's dog for resale, ... and was plotting to steal my horse with a buyer all lined up. Both those neighbors are mercifully gone. And the police did nothing while they trashed the neighborhood. My next step is to get serious arms training.

That's what's "wrong" with some people. We've had enough...and then some. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

3fatponies

Aug. 31, 2005, 05:18 AM

There is always an argument for knowing how to defend yourself, and as a female shooter(targets only, please, though hunting may be in my future), I can say that it is an empowering and liberating thing to be competent enough with a gun to know that you need not be afraid, should you find yourself in jeopardy.

However, I would strongly urge an experienced, professional teacher for that training, so that you develop good, safe habits. Safe and smart shooters practice regularly, treat every gun as if was loaded and respect that you should never point it if you are not willing to shoot. They are not the idiots leaving loaded guns within the reach of children, nor blowing off rounds at New Years.

Not to mention that in some cases, the knowledge alone that you can defend yourself may scare away predators.

From the female perspective, you might consider joining a gun club. Despite what you may think, gun club members tend to view shooting as a sport, and are thrilled to welcome women into the ranks, as they know that good PR one person at a time is the only way to change the ignorant opinions held by many that gun owners are dangerous. Many clubs have ladies night events and groups where you can recieve instruction, information and support.

Consider not just looking into it, but taking the plunge. I think you may be surprised at how it helps you, both in terms of empowerment and real security. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

mairzeadoats

Aug. 31, 2005, 05:30 AM

3fatponies, I haven't been able to find a gun club here (very rural, most people hunt regularly and target practice in their backyards off season) BUT I have the name of a police officer 2 towns over that teaches a formal course in handling guns. By the end of the course, students qualify for a permit to carry concealed weapons. Unless I find a better solution, at this point that is where I plan to get my training.

I just finished my "passive protection" system last week, when I installed my last 100' of 4' 2x4 mesh fencing on the roadside. This week is de-rock, rake and seed my new pasture week. Sept/Oct is gun month. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

x-rab

Aug. 31, 2005, 07:57 AM

Mairezeadoats once you are comfortable with a handgun, I would recommend training with a shotgun and rifle. You can load the shotgun with rocksalt and blast away at intruders. The rifle is for long distance protection. Since you have problem neighbors, would also recommend a large dog trained for protection.

On the subject of hairspray flammability, aerosol hairspray makes a wonderful flame thrower. You simply hold down the button and wave a match or lighter in front of it and flame away. Because of the alcohol, would assume that aerosol perfume would work the same way. It needs to be aerosol to get the continuous spray, but it does work.

Sandy M

Aug. 31, 2005, 08:05 AM

Nice attitude, Huntertwo, and certainly, you're entitled to have it. *Shrug* I assume you are most definitely for the death penalty. Perhaps we should reinstitute it for ALL offenses, from misdemeanors to murder, as they did in 18th Century England.

I have NO brief for these morally bankrupt children and what they did to this horse, but I do believe that despite our Government's (denied) advocacy of torture, it is still not permitted under the laws of this country or the Geneva Convention. And "doing unto them" in this way WOULD lower you to their level.

They certainly deserve punishment, and I understand the desire to make them suffer as the poor horse has suffered - but as we stand back in indignation and anger and call for their punishment, advocating torture and death for them hardly makes us "better" than they are.

I do hope they are locked up for a good long time. It's too bad that "hard labor" is no longer a part of our system, but it was too prone to over-the-top abuse of prisoners. I question the efficacy of rehabilitation for such individuals. On the other hand, the serial killers we hear about (who often were childhood animal abusers) never, in most cases, received any help of any kind in their childhood. One can HOPE it works, but.... However, despite my anger against these girls, I canNOT agree that torture and lynch'em attitude is appropriate.

For what it's worth, it seemed that the dog and horse training prison programs HAVE helped women and men so incarcerated. Perhaps that would be appropriate. Sadly, since, as I have said, horses are only regarded as "property" this awful crime will probably not be regarded as "serious" enough to merit long-term incarceration. But my disgust at that lack of serious consequences for them (I hope I'll be pleasant surprised and they WILL get substantial time in some sort of prison setting), I canNOT advocate torturing them.

mairzeadoats

Aug. 31, 2005, 11:08 AM

x-rab, the bad neighbors are totally gone. But I got my dog this past winter. No, not protection trained. But a shelter puppy, lab-chow-heinz57. Looks just lab enough that the breeders think he's purebred at first glance. But also looks like he was bred to be a fighting dog...enough that a number of people have asked me if he's a pit.

Based on his initial size, I thought he'd reach 40-50 pounds, 60 at most. Then at 12 weeks or so, his feet grew into giant soup tureens. He looked like a cartoon puppy. He also grew a massive chest and developed a big, deep bark.

A couple weeks ago, at 8-9 months, he broke 22" tall and 70 pounds. Breeders in the street now guess he'll top out between 80 and 100. He no longer looks like a cartoon, but his feet are still huge. He also is very heavy boned...shephards and old-style labs look almost tweedy beside his cannon bones and deep chest. Dog-lovers no longer come up to him on the street oohing and aahing over the little puppy. They ask if he's 2 years old, and when I say his age, they look at his feet and quietly murmer, "That's gonna be one big doge." The dog-haters/fearers no longer just look away when I walk him in town. They visibly cringe. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

He is, of course, a love. But I still have hopes that if anyone is foolish enough to break into my house, he'll knock them down and pin them to the ground. If they knock their heads and are unconscious, he'll probably bring them too licking their faces. But then I hope they'll have coronaries when they come to only to see "jaws" teeth headed toward their faces.

Huntertwo

Aug. 31, 2005, 11:13 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sandy M:
Nice attitude, Huntertwo, and certainly, you're entitled to have it. *Shrug* I assume you are most definitely for the death penalty. Perhaps we should reinstitute it for ALL offenses, from misdemeanors to murder, as they did in 18th Century England.

I have NO brief for these morally bankrupt children and what they did to this horse, but I do believe that despite our Government's (denied) advocacy of torture, it is still not permitted under the laws of this country or the Geneva Convention. And "doing unto them" in this way WOULD lower you to their level.

They certainly deserve punishment, and I understand the desire to make them suffer as the poor horse has suffered - but as we stand back in indignation and anger and call for their punishment, advocating torture and death for them hardly makes us "better" than they are.

I do hope they are locked up for a good long time. It's too bad that "hard labor" is no longer a part of our system, but it was too prone to over-the-top abuse of prisoners. I </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, Sandy I AM in favor of the death penalty when proved beyond a reasonable doubt. How would you feel if the little girl from FL. Jessica Lunsford was your daughter? Who was brutally sexually assulted then BURIED WHILE STILL ALIVE?

And we could not possibly have hard labor reinstated thanks to our ACLU, that would be against the criminals civil liberties!

Sandy M

Aug. 31, 2005, 11:21 AM

I don't want to get into a death penalty argument. It's inappropriate for this forum anyway.

BUT... As to how would I feel? I would feel awful, I would feel vengeful, etc. BUT I would not ACT on it. I would mourn, but I would leave the question for the law (whatever it would be in the particular state). I would not be at the court demanding the death penalty. Killing the perpetrator would not bring back my child. I would consider being locked up for life (w/o parole) actually worse. Death penalty - an injection - they're gone - no appreciable suffering. A lifetime of contemplating their evil - more of a punishment,I think.

And EVERY death penalty advocate I've ever met stridently maintains that they are not pro-death penalty for the purpose of VENGEANCE but for JUSTICE - yet everyone of them talks in the same terms as have been used about these girls, i.e. TAKING REVENGE for their behavior.

Punishment of these girls? Yes. Torture and/or death? Please, no. The very thought is as disgusting as what they did.

Cartier

Aug. 31, 2005, 11:31 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> And we could not possibly have hard labor reinstated thanks to our ACLU, that would be against the criminals civil liberties!
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I’m all for life in prison… but torture and chain gangs are actually “Cruel and Unusual Punishment” and violate the 8th Amendment to the Constitution, part of those pesky 10 Amendments called the Bill of Rights, which embodies the fundament tenants of this fabulous free society.

If we are willing to fund it, this society has the ability to keep these threats to society locked up like animals for the rest of their pathetic useless lives. But that costs a lot of money. We could send 10 kids to Harvard for what it costs to keep one prisoner in jail for 10 years.

As a society, I think our resources are better spent on birth control and education… especially educating sexually active teens that parenting is a huge responsibility; it is a learned set of skills; we tend to parent as we were parented; and, if one is raised poorly and/or in an abusive situation, one may never be suited to the job of parenting without a major commitment to change and a viable role model for good parenting (which includes the skills and resources to raise physically and emotionally healthy, responsible, productive citizens.

x-rab

Aug. 31, 2005, 11:40 AM

Mairzedoats strongly recommend obedience training for Moose. It will make both of you happier if he has the basic skills. I forget where I read it, but it was recommended that women who live alone have dogs and teach them to raise their hackles and snarl on some command like fluffy, how to knock over and guard a person on command and how to grab and hold without hurting. I personally like both voice and hand commands. I am glad that you have no need of these skills currently, but are worth teaching if only to see if you can.

On the subject of capital punishment, unfortunately there are animals borm to all species, including humans, who have no morals or conscious. They kill, maim, and hurt for the heck of it. These animal should not be tolerated, they respect nothing except brute force and should be put down. IF given the choice or opportunity, they will continue their kicks. I personally don't like paying for them to have better health care, food and housing than most people here in the US, so yes I believe in capital punishment.

Cartier

Aug. 31, 2005, 11:48 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> On the subject of capital punishment, unfortunately there are animals borm to all species, including humans, who have no morals or conscious. They kill, maim, and hurt for the heck of it. These animal should not be tolerated, they respect nothing except brute force and should be put down. IF given the choice or opportunity, they will continue their kicks. I personally don't like paying for them to have better health care, food and housing than most people here in the US, so yes I believe in capital punishment. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You are basically speaking of sociopaths… creatures that have no ability to connect to the emotions of others… they are dangerous because of their utter indifference to the pain and suffering of others. They are thought to be untreatable… and I believe they exhibit certain traits that can be identified as early as 18 months (much like a shy or aggressive puppy can be identified at 8 weeks). Should we just euthanize them then and save society a lot of money? Or should we euthanize the parents who created them? Or both?

blton9th

Aug. 31, 2005, 12:23 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by x-rab:
I personally don't like paying for them to have better health care, food and housing than most people here in the US, so yes I believe in capital punishment. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree!!!!!! I am a firm believer in, once you commit a crime and you are sent to prison, YOU LOSE ALL OF YOUR RIGHTS! PERHAPS, a chain gang would do the girls and their Mother's some good! (They could bond and spend some quality time together!) What is so cruel about the chain gang? You act like an animal; you get treated like one!

Aggie4Bar

Aug. 31, 2005, 12:24 PM

bjrudq

Aug. 31, 2005, 12:24 PM

"bjrudq sorry I don't buy the old they were abused or molested as either an excuse or as a reason."

well, we don't know if they were or not. as i said there was a mob mentality here. i don't think being abused gets them off in any way, shape or form; just that in addition to punishment, it HAS to be addressed or it will happen again. the authorities need to find out what is going on in these girls' heads.

in my experience most delinquents were abused or ignored, but that doesn't mean that most kids who were abused become delinqunt. you didn't, my father didn't, my cousins didn't,most abused kids don't. doesn't change the fact that most delinquents were abused(contrary to popular belief-not spoiled, at least i've never met a kid who became a delinqunet becasue his parents paid TOO MUCH attention to him!)

my, my-these sort of incidents sure bring out the loonies and vigilantes-and now we hear from the gun nuts too.

a bit of advice, if you are going to carry a gun, i hope you understand the law in your jurisdiction; i hope you will spend AT LEAST as much time as a police officer does in learning how to use it safely, and i hope you don't shoot an innocent person or get shot yourself.

and don't think you can shoot someone else with impunity if you catch them abusing an animal.

pacific, my comment about the parents is this: if these girls have done this sort of thing before(and we don't know that they have-all we have is the media report and those are notoriously inaccurate at times) then the parents KNEW or SHOULD HAVE KNOWN that these girls had a propensity for violence; therefore they were negligent in not addressing it and in failing to supervise, and should be held liable for the damages cause by their daughters' actions.

further, i think parents should have to pay the costs of psych exams, therapy, detention, etc. in cases like this.

and the girls should have to pay restitution.

the more people who can be held responsible, the more likely poor dixie's owners will recover enough to take care of the vet and future care.

x-rab

Aug. 31, 2005, 12:31 PM

Whether sociopaths are creatures of nature or nuture has been debated for decades if not centuries. I don't know why they occur, they just do. They can come from good parents or bad. However if they can be identified at 18 months, then hopefully with treatment at an early age, they can overcome or mitigate the problem, be taught social skills and become productive human beings. Once the behavior is fully developed and acted upon, then you have to either lock them up or after they kill and they will usually do so more than once, then sentence them to capital punishment.

Phaxxton

Aug. 31, 2005, 12:44 PM

Edited to add that it looks like someone deleted the post to which this post responds... Just so you know this DIDN'T come out of left field. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I'm sorry, but no one's stereotyping your generation. No one's saying the majority of teenagers are doing heinous things.

What these teenagers did is INDEFENSIBLE and any mature teen should realize that.

The simple fact of the matter is that your generation (and I'm not that far away from your generation - I'm in my mid-twenties) has MUCH higher statistics of crime than previosu ones. It's not necessarily the teenagers' fault, either. Perhaps it's their parents who aren't paying attention. Perhaps it's society. Perhaps it's the media.

Whatever, crimes among teens are up and the types of crimes are more violent and more disturbing. No one's saying it's only teens, so don't get defensive of teens. There are good ones out there for sure.

What people are saying is that there's a dramatic loss of innocence earlier and earlier in life now... I'm just sorry that someone, somewhere is failing all these kids. Something needs to change -- and I think change needs to start with the adults, not the teens.

I'm stayingout of the DP debate (even as a Republican with a conscience who is strongly against the death penalty), but I will say Sandy M has made a most excellent point. It's normal to have feelings of revenge - even normal to have feelings of wanting to torture of kill someone in revenge. It's NOT ok to ever act on those feelings, though. Punishment for criminals? Yes. State sactioned murder as the solution? No.

Cartier

Aug. 31, 2005, 01:04 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Whether sociopaths are creatures of nature or nuture has been debated for decades if not centuries. I don't know why they occur, they just do. They can come from good parents or bad. However if they can be identified at 18 months, then hopefully with treatment at an early age, they can overcome or mitigate the problem, be taught social skills and become productive human beings. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>A sociopath is untreatable. i.e., there is no effective treatment… much the same as for pedophiles (for whom there is no effective treatment except castration).

Sandy M

Aug. 31, 2005, 01:16 PM

Actually, because of the appeals process, it costs less to imprison someone for life than it does to execute them. Fewer of "your" tax dollars.

So... shall we cut out the appeals process? Consider the number of people imprisoned for years, but thankfully not executed, who have been cleared by advances in DNA typing, etc. Consider if you were wrongfully accused of something. We'll just skip the appeals process, 'cause it costs money. No?

Not that anyone doubts these girls' guilt, but the death penalty - except by some of the lynch mob attitude expressed here by some - isn't really on the table in this case. And sadly, even the prison/juvenile facility/whatever terms are NOT likely to be very long term.

Cartier

Aug. 31, 2005, 01:21 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Consider the number of people imprisoned for years, but thankfully not executed, who have been cleared by advances in DNA typing, etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
For a short time in the late 1990’s I was a member of Innocence Project Northwest… which was modeled after Barry Scheck’s National program (name escapes me) that has freed many innocent people based on DNA evidence of innocence. The appellate process is a vitally important safeguard… our judicial system makes errors.

Huntertwo

Aug. 31, 2005, 01:38 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mairzeadoats:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">but KILLING them? what the hell is wrong with some people? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We're sick to death of living in fear of our neighbors. Fear for our lives, and the lives of our loved ones. Unless those girls stole a car, they likely were neighbors.

When they set Dixie on fire, they may have killed her. That was the likely consequence of their action. They attempted to murder Dixie, and it's too soon to say if they succeeded.

We're tired of "the system" waiting until criminals have killed one or more people before they take action. And then of taking too little action.

And we're tired of known, violent criminals being let loose on the streets. With their identities protected because *their* civil rights might be violated by the poor unknowing neighbors left to protect their families and loved ones.

One reason I moved up here is because I'll at least be allowed to defend myself. Down in Massachusetts they recently passed a law that it's illegal to use "excessive force" to defend yourself. What does that mean? That if someone breaks into your house and attacks you or your child, and you manage to inflict more damage on your attacker than they do on you...than *you're* the criminal. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

I for one now live in fear of my neighbors. I wanted to kill the sex offender that was harrassing me because for 3 years he tormented me 24x7. And now I live in fear of my new neighbors because one of them has damaged my property and was caught casing my house, I had a credit card disappear from my mail, another neighbor stole a neighbor's dog for resale, ... and was plotting to steal my horse with a buyer all lined up. Both those neighbors are mercifully gone. And the police did nothing while they trashed the neighborhood. My next step is to get serious arms training.

That's what's "wrong" with some people. We've had enough...and then some. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you Mairze - Well said!

mairzeadoats

Aug. 31, 2005, 02:47 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">a bit of advice, if you are going to carry a gun, i hope you understand the law in your jurisdiction; </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Er, bgrudge, I already said I plan to get my training *from* a police officer and will end up qualified to get a license for a concealed weapon. I didn't say I intend to carry a concealed weapon, but that is the level of training I will have. And I *hardly* qualify as a "gun nut." In fact, I used to be a pacifist. My reality is that in the last 5 years I've been targeted by 3 known criminals in 2 different states. And the police have failed to protect me, or my neighbors, in *every* instance. As a single woman, living alone, I have to protect myself.

I won't shoot to kill invaders...just to stop them. Of course, as a stupid, middle-aged, single woman, suburban transplant to the country, I *may* accidentally miss and catch'em where they live. In which case I will apologize profusely...but won't cry too much if they're unable to reproduce as a result! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Personally, I'm a creative type. I *much* preferred the good old days when we had the 100,000 police in the street program and I could focus on earning a good living instead of practically booby-trapping my property and fighting with blue-collar criminal contractors. But the current administration ended that program and the remaining police are overwhelmed.

Xrab -- My little Moose knew come, sit, heel and wait at 3 months. At 4 months he discovered he could drag me and forgot all he knew. At 6 months, we went to formal obedience school. then he met up with a porcupine. After his exam, Ms. Vet quietly asked me if he'd had obedience training. I said 3 classes, why, ready to lower the boom on Moose. She proceeded to lavish praise on his excellent, excellent manners...especially considering what she had just had to do to him. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

His size and looks scare people...but his behavior is *usually* impeccable!

bjrudq

Aug. 31, 2005, 05:57 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The simple fact of the matter is that your generation (and I'm not that far away from your generation - I'm in my mid-twenties) has MUCH higher statistics of crime than previosu ones. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i don't think this is accurate. source?

perfectionist

Aug. 31, 2005, 08:04 PM

In KY, this is correct; I am not sure of the other states for I do not receive data regarding them. The Juvenile Crime Rate is increasing at a staggering amount (per capita, not just numbers, if you know what I mean). My town has the third worst rate but is the 10th. largest city; we rate only behind Louisville and Lexington. Additionally, our crime rate per capita nationally has surpassed Nashville; this is adult crime.

I can search my sources and find the facts and will try to do so tomorrow.

mairzeadoats

Aug. 31, 2005, 08:12 PM

The town where I lived in formerly rural Mass was ranked the 15th safest small city in the country by Fortune magazine back in the late-80s.

15 years later, it was ranked the 2nd or 3rd most dangerous small city in the country by Fortune.

The criminals are mostly teenage ethnic gangs. It periodically shows up in Boston Globe articles now.

perfectionist

Aug. 31, 2005, 08:29 PM

Know what you mean about the gangs. Unfortuantely, I have become the schools' "gangologist" because of my experience and my vast artifact collection of gang stuff. It is astounding what these groups are up to. Ours have connections in a BIG way with the BIG cities; we are within four hours of many big cities; right smack dab in the middle.

Last year on HBO there was a documentary called "BANGIN' IN LITTLE ROCK 2." Boy, what an eye opener. I taped it, and I found the first one that was made 10 years ago. Could have swore I saw some of my students!

mairzeadoats

Aug. 31, 2005, 08:49 PM

New article published today with additional details.

Good news: Attending vet now puts Dixie's chance of survival at 90%. He had originally feared she'd be lost to septicemia or founder.

A tack shop donated a Rambo fly sheet and today Dixie spent the day outside in a paddock off her stall.

Tomorrow (Thursday) the vet will be back for an exam. Based on the latest photos, he expects to have to amputate the remains of her tail.

Bad news: the teenagers could get off with as little as a $500 fine!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

I've made some judicious edits to my letter. It goes out tomorrow.

MistyBlue

Sep. 1, 2005, 03:13 AM

Hi Mairz! Here's the updated article!

http://www.thehorse.com/viewarticle.aspx?ID=6074

KrazyTBMare

Sep. 1, 2005, 03:18 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chaotic mind:
First off I don't believe the girls did this with hairspray or perfume. If hairspary could do that then in the 50's and early 60's when beehive hairdo's and smoking were all the rage the ER's would have been flooded. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, hairspray can act as a torch. The problem is that a lot of times the flame will burn back up the spray to the can and it could explode in the persons hand. NEVER DONE THIS but Ive heard of it and read it somewhere in school.

I think these girls need to be tried as ADULT. This is utterly disgusting and justice NEEDS to be serve! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

MistyBlue

Sep. 1, 2005, 04:54 AM

Hairspray and perfume can be highly flammable! And this wasn't only an issue with the beehives of the 50's-60's...it was also an issue with the big hair of the 80's. I know...I lived through it. Barely. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Everyone back then knew not to have a cigarette or candle within 25 feet of you while doing your hair. Once the spray sets and dries, it's still flammable but not blow-torchy. But coming straight from the can of aerosol spray it's like having a blow torch in your hands. Yes, the flames can follow up the stream into the highly condensed can and explode. It happened to a neighborhood boy ages ago when they were playing with one, he lost 2 fingers. But in short spurts of spray and a lighter the flames follow the outgoing instead. Just like those folks who spit flammable oil from their mouths and light it in street fairs...they do it in short spurts so the flames don't travel back to the mouthful of accelerant they have. It would bring new meaning to the term shooting your mouth off. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
I'm no burn expert...but since the flames look like they shot up the tail and continued to burn for some time I would bet they were using an accelerant. Hair does burn fast, but it tends to burn out fast too. This burnt long enough to cause severe skin burns. Plus, we don't know if the bragging brats also mentioned this while telling school friends. But big kudos to the school mates who spilled the beans about the bragging.

chaotic mind

Sep. 1, 2005, 05:02 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KrazyTBMare:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by chaotic mind:
First off I don't believe the girls did this with hairspray or perfume. If hairspary could do that then in the 50's and early 60's when beehive hairdo's and smoking were all the rage the ER's would have been flooded. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, hairspray can act as a torch. The problem is that a lot of times the flame will burn back up the spray to the can and it could explode in the persons hand. NEVER DONE THIS but Ive heard of it and read it somewhere in school.

QUOTE]

Okay chemestry class. Hair spray right out of the can is more flammable than hairspray that has been exposed to air. Once hairspray is exposed the solvent which keeps it liquid in the can so it can be sprayed very quickly evaporates, which is why when you use hair spray you generally don't wind up with wet hair most of the solvent has evaporated in the trip from the can to your hair. It is this solvent that is the most flammable part of airspray.

I have could go further into the physics of fire but surfice it to say neither hairspray in it's solid state nor hair burns hot enough to cause the kind of damage the horse suffered. My opinion is that the horses tail must have been soaked in something that is both flammable and a source of fuel in it's self such as gasoline.

bjrudq

Sep. 1, 2005, 06:12 AM

you are living in pockets of crime, then. overall, the crime rate in the u.s. has been on a steady decline for the past 10-15 years.

Drive NJ

Sep. 1, 2005, 08:18 AM

Since someone who can do this sort of thing to a living being is probably not going to show remorse or 'learn', and they are juveniles and unlikely to be tried as adults, wouldn't you just love to see them given a penalty that will remind them of what they did for a long time?

How about paying the vet bills and a $X fine every month for... my preference would be life, but I know they'd never do it so how about 30 years (the horse's probable life expectancy)? It won't help the horse's owner with her bills in the short term, but just think of writing that check out every month or having that money deducted from your pay forever.

Trakehner

Sep. 1, 2005, 08:20 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">wow, i can't BELEIVE the amount of ignorance and vitriol displayed by some of you!

"They'll sniff and shed a tear, their scum lawyer will come up with gems like, "But your honor, look at my clients, they're just young defenseless little girls, it was an accident, they were trying to get the burrs out of the horse's tail and a spark set her tail on fire...haven't they already suffered enough?"

well, i guess i shouldn't take this TOO seriously; after all, it's trakehner talking and i gotta consider the source!

as a "scum lawyer" who has represented many juveniles, i can assure you that this is not the type of argument i would make. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, you'd come up with some other tearful excuse to make their crime so much more sympathetic and tear-wrenching from a bleeding-heart "juvy" judge.

I guess your negative comments about our "ignorance and vitriol" are due to the majority of people here who's morals and bedrock feeling of right and wrong don't match a defense attourneys view of the best defence these monster's parent's can afford vs. justice.

Trakehner

Sep. 1, 2005, 08:34 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You are basically speaking of sociopaths… creatures that have no ability to connect to the emotions of others… they are dangerous because of their utter indifference to the pain and suffering of others. They are thought to be untreatable… </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure fits these little darlings behaviours, past and present....

Cartier

Sep. 1, 2005, 08:42 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> quote:
You are basically speaking of sociopaths… creatures that have no ability to connect to the emotions of others… they are dangerous because of their utter indifference to the pain and suffering of others. They are thought to be untreatable… </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Sure fits these little darlings behaviours, past and present.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
and it will fit again in the future... and there will be other incidents.

Tabwrdd_ridge

Sep. 1, 2005, 08:49 AM

sorry, i havent followed this in a few days
but i got this in my email th is morning
and thought you all might like to read/ see the pix of this poor horse..
also a donation link to help her with vet expenses.
http://www.thehorse.com/viewarticle.aspx?ID=6074

Trakehner

Sep. 1, 2005, 08:51 AM

Child molesters keep molesting children...it's not a one-time behaviour.

Animal cruelty isn't something a kid tries just once...it's not a one-time behaviour.

A domestic abuser doesn't just get pissed one time and think, "yep, just this one time I'll nail them".

Arsonists don't set just one fire and go, "well, that's one experience I'll never need to do again."

These girls did it before, they'll do it again. They may just keep their mouths shut the next time.

ESG

Sep. 1, 2005, 09:27 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cartier:
You are basically speaking of sociopaths… creatures that have no ability to connect to the emotions of others… they are dangerous because of their utter indifference to the pain and suffering of others.

<span class="ev_code_PURPLE">Yep. I think these girls qualify. They've already demonstrated that they're willing to torture something defenseless for fun, so the definition applies to them. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif</span>

They are thought to be untreatable… and I believe they exhibit certain traits that can be identified as early as 18 months (much like a shy or aggressive puppy can be identified at 8 weeks).

<span class="ev_code_PURPLE">Yes. Sociopaths are not historically salvageable. You can't do a conscience transplant. And since these monsters are born without one, the best thing to do is to put them in situations where they'll never have an opportunity to torture or kill anyone/anything else again. This usually means prison, but I really like the death penalty for people like this. They're of no value, and a demonstrated threat to society, and are consuming valuable resources (not to mention our tax dollars) better spent on someone worthwhile. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif</span>

Should we just euthanize them then and save society a lot of money? Or should we euthanize the parents who created them? Or both? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_PURPLE">"Euthanization" is a good idea for the offenders. Not so the parents, but perhaps involuntary sterilization would be appropriate for them? Along with restitution to the victims of their hellspawn? Just a thought. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif</span>

Trakehner

Sep. 1, 2005, 09:32 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">"Euthanization" is a good idea for the offenders. Not so the parents, but perhaps involuntary sterilization would be appropriate for them? Along with restitution to the victims of their hellspawn? Just a thought. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How bout' "Post-Natal-Birth-Control?"

Pony Person

Sep. 1, 2005, 09:34 AM

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gifI hope they get the electric chair.. or that they get dipped in a vat of <span class="ev_code_RED">HOT</span> oil. What they did was absolutely terrible. The owner must be devistated! Hope the filly recovers!

ESG

Sep. 1, 2005, 09:46 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Trakehner:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">"Euthanization" is a good idea for the offenders. Not so the parents, but perhaps involuntary sterilization would be appropriate for them? Along with restitution to the victims of their hellspawn? Just a thought. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How bout' "Post-Natal-Birth-Control?" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">"Retroactive abortion" has a nice ring to it, too. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif</span>

mairzeadoats

Sep. 1, 2005, 10:10 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bjrudq:
you are living in pockets of crime, then. overall, the crime rate in the u.s. has been on a steady decline for the past 10-15 years. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"There's lies, there's damn lies...and then there's statistics."

Crime declined while the economy was strong, employment high and 100,000 extra police on the street.

In the past few years, I personally believe there's been a rise in certain types of crime. None of the crimes against me or my neighbors in the past few years would show up in the numbers you're looking at. And in my 50+ years, I've never feared my neighbors before now.

Just like the government comes up with new and creative ways to convince us that the economy is going great, by ignoring the masses of people who were laid off post 9/11 who are still unemployed or starting their own businesses in droves (80% of which will fail w/in 2 years, according to most statistics). And then they'll spout the millions of new jobs created, ignoring that some people are now working 2 and 3 jobs to make ends meet because the new jobs pay, oh, minimum or so.

And in similar ways, they skew the numbers about crime. But the reality on the ground is, crime is on the rise.

bjrudq

Sep. 1, 2005, 10:44 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">In the past few years, I personally believe there's been a rise in certain types of crime. None of the crimes against me or my neighbors in the past few years would show up in the numbers you're looking at. And in my 50+ years, I've never feared my neighbors before now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

well mairze, if the crimes were reported they WOULD show up.

i realize that you think that your "personal beliefs" have more to do with the "reality on the ground" than the department of justice and fbi statistics that professionals rely on. geez, since they are so full of doodoo maybe you should become a consultant to them, and we can measure the rise and fall of crime based on what happens to you and how you "personally" feel about it.

for the rest of you, if you are interested,

doj stats (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance.htm) http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance.htm

this tracks trends through 2003, so there may well be an upswing since then-but not enough to make a difference between the last two "generations."

the media, coupled with personal anecdotes, makes everyone feel unsafe. but it's baloney.

Ghazzu

Sep. 1, 2005, 11:31 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by x-rab:
Mairzedoats strongly recommend obedience training for Moose. It will make both of you happier if he has the basic skills. I forget where I read it, but it was recommended that women who live alone have dogs and teach them to raise their hackles and snarl on some command like fluffy, how to knock over and guard a person on command and how to grab and hold without hurting. I personally like both voice and hand commands. I am glad that you have no need of these skills currently, but are worth teaching if only to see if you can.

. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I will secon the obedience training, but leave the schutzhund work to the pros.
Otherwise, one is likely to end up with a lawsuit and a dead dog.

bjrudq

Sep. 1, 2005, 11:58 AM

pacific, the doj has been keeping these stats for years, through both dem and rep admins.

my husband is a crim justice professor; law enforcement, businesses,academia and policy makers use these stats as PART of the info they need to make decisions.

the stats are only as good as the input, which comes from the fbi, the sheriffs, the police chiefs, etc.

some of it is frustrating because some particular crimes are not tracked separately but lumped in with others, and that can make specific research difficult at times.

if you work in the system, or have been victimized, or watch the nightly news, it DOES seem that crime is up. and it might be in some places.

but it isn't.

professionals rely on these stats-does that make them objective? reasonably so, i think. nothing that has human input can ever be completely, but looking at thousands and thousands of cases is gonna give you a more accurate picture than thinking that what happens in your neighborhood applies universally.

what is more interesting is the DEBATE as to the cause of this drop in crime. conservatives, of course, argue that crime has dropped because the rate of incarceration has gone up and penalties are stiffer. liberals argue that crime has dropped because there is more law enforcement. professors think that demographics plays a part-there are fewer young people, and young people commit most of the crimes. (people really DO grow out of it, surprisingly enough.)

in my little microcosm i have seen the less serious crimes, like check bouncing, go up when the job market gets tight(so i would see maybe 5-6 a month instead of 0-2) an observation which is practically worthless, however.

the drop in crime has been news in the criminal justice community for years. why is it that the general public is unaware of it?

could it be that the politicians don't want to emphasize this because it's easier to get elected on an anti-crime platform, and crim justice community wants to keep quiet becasue it could affect their funding?

and the media has always loved crime; it sure sells newspapers and advertising. then people who live in minnesota have to know all about some creep in california who kills his preggo wife-like it's an everyday occurence or something.

Duffy

Sep. 1, 2005, 11:59 AM

I just got back from a computer-less vacation and am catching up here.

This makes me so sick and angry. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

That said, even though there are times I want to strangle my 14 year old daughter, she literally JUST called to ask if it was ok if she volunteered at the Richmond SPCA. Kind of restores one's faith in some teenagers, eh? I told her that until she gets her grades up and maintains them for awhile, she would not be doing anything on a regular basis and that I didn't think they'd take someone that young. She just called back to say she needs to be 16 yrs old to volunteer there.

bjrudq

Sep. 1, 2005, 01:40 PM

heck, if you think the doj reports stats to benefit itself in some way-you are probably right!

but my husband is an expert researcher and professor(and yes, i realize that a lot of people think that isn't much in the way of credentials-but the cops he teaches respect him, fwiw) and feels that the stats have some validity and usefulness, so there ya go.

i posted this info in response to the twenty-something who was telling a teenager that the teen's generation has a higher crime rate than hers, and to mairze who thinks the world revolves around her neighborhood.

if you think those are better sources of info than the doj and fbi-so be it.

as far as lawyers manipulating the law-well that statement is just plain ignorant. you see it everyday, huh? what are you, a judge?

usually your posts are pretty intelligent-what happened?

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"

Sep. 1, 2005, 03:00 PM

Getting back to appropriate punishment for these kids...

I truly feel there are several issues:

(1) the children are REQUIRED to have therapy for their behavior. Which must be paid for by the children and/or parents, for as long as is so appropriately deemed by the mental health practioners in question. Not coverable by insurance.

(2) the children are REQUIRED to make FULL resitition to Dixie's owner. This includes the complete cost of all veterinary bills, plus an amount to be determined re: pain and suffering (for horse and owner). This includes the cost of donations and donated items. So, for example, the fly sheet that was donated was probably $200 Dixie's owner didn't have to spend. That amount must still be part of the restitution, but will be designated for a relief fund (Katrina animal rescue, for example).

As far as (1) or (2), if this means the children have a poor credit rating and are in debt well into their adult years - well, that is their responsibility and they will have to live with that.

(3) This must go down on their PERMANENT RECORDS and make them absolutely ineligible for any awards or fellowships of any nature (should these children actually be capable of applying for/receiving such awards). It must be placed on all college applications and all job applications, because this is an issue that they should have to address. Every single time.

Let these kids be fully aware of the penalties for their behavior. It is truly a shame they can't be incarcerated, but then again, they are unlikely to be rehabilitated in that way.

I know someone (when I was in my teens) who lost control of his vehicle (not under the influence, no one knows quite what happened); they crossed a divider into an oncoming car, killing the driver and two of the driver's children. This person has never, ever forgiven themselves, even though they are now a parent. That has been the worst punishment for what was truly "an accident." Can't we at least have that for children who deliberately inflicted a horrible cruelty?

I should add - I would also like to see they be required to visit a burn trauma unit, so they can get a feel for the pain they inflicted. And I hope it gives them nightmares - maybe then they won't repeat the offense.

mairzeadoats

Sep. 1, 2005, 03:33 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">well mairze, if the crimes were reported they WOULD show up. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well the crimes do get reported, but if the police or the dispatcher blow you off then they DON'T show up. The police were called on my recent criminal neighbor repeatedly by various neighbors for numerous incidents. They showed up just once. I know I got blown off when said neighbor lit a massive fire in the middle of the night a few feet from his rental home and 400 acres of woods... without a burn permit and in the middle of a bad drought.

Now you sound like the wanna-be scientist who blows off somebody's personal experience as merely "anecdotal" and therefore irrelevent or somehow nonexistant. Well, it may be anecdotal to the scientist, but it's somebody's REALITY.

I can only report on my direct experience. I didn't choose to believe or suddenly develop a "belief system" that crime is increasing. I have experienced it. I've been around more than a couple years, bgrudg. In fact, more than a couple decades.

When I was a kid, we routinely left front doors unlocked. We walked a mile or two to the schoolbus, didn't have to be picked up at our front door. Left keys in the car when we ran into the corner store. Left cars unlocked when we were shopping. And there are still people up here in Maine who do that. But fewer and fewer dare too. I recently met a retired gentleman who'd just opened a store in a very wealthy, bayside village. He sells zen meditation gardens and american indian rugs. He told me he wanted to create a peaceful, healing place. But after his experiences with his sole employee, he now works alone and packs a 38 behind the counter. Another worker in that little village was robbed at gunpoint twice within a month.

On the other hand, my experience with academics -- and after 20 years working in hi tech I have worked with and known a few -- is that they tend to be living in little ivory towers looking at numbers and getting those numbers very confused with the reality around them.

MistyBlue

Sep. 1, 2005, 05:52 PM

bjrudq...I actually happen to know Mairz...and it's not just her current neighborhood. It was the last one too...and other areas. And she's not in what I'd exactly call a high crime area...yet she does have an awful lot of law breaking and law bending going on around her. When one experiences that quite often, in very different locations from very different types of people...one tends to assume crime rates ar a tad out of control. Petty crimes often...but ones that have a definite impact on other folks. Burning brush without a burn permit isn't exactly something that would make most crime stats...yet when it happens next to your property during a severe draught and you're running around putting out small fires to keep your house standing and your animals alive...and then the law ignores you when you call to stop it...and when these types of things happen often...you tend to ignore national stats and focus on what affects you personally. Mairz has had more than her share of crap happen around her...I would have the same view she has. My personal view on crime is not that it's on the rise...but that's it's handled badly. In my experience not by the authorities...but by the courts. So it happens over and over by the same folks again and again.
I also volunteer with local police depts...personal crimes are on the rise. Not violent crimes...but things such as trespass, property damage, vandalism, etc. And almost exclusively by folks raised to believe the sun shines out of their arses.

mairzeadoats

Sep. 1, 2005, 05:56 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">mairze who thinks the world revolves around her neighborhood. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow! I don't know why you have such a grudge against me, bgrudg. Maybe you need to resort to personal attacks because your "statistics" argument doesn't hold water against life outside the ivory tower?

You claimed that statistics prove that crime is down. One person responded with examples of how crime among youth is up in her area. I shared something similar about 2 areas I've lived in recently. And I shared the famous quote of why many people believe statistics can be very misleading, along with an example. Whoop-de-do.

I also shared what 2 different people have told me from different towns. Those anecdotes are hardly the sum of my experience...they're just my most recent examples and very much on my mind right now. They don't include what I read in the papers. They don't include what many, many others have shared with me from various neighborhoods, towns and states.

"this tracks trends through 2003, so there may well be an upswing since then"

And exactly when did I say I'd noticed an increase in crime? Oh, yeah, the *last few years.*

bjrudq

Sep. 1, 2005, 06:14 PM

well, mairze, since my husband IS an academic i think i have known a lot more of them than you-and-in his department there are former state troopers and corrections officers, plus former fbi agents, all of whom are now ph.d. professors and had-and still have-a little more knowlege about what is happening "on the ground" as you say...no ivory towers there, but hands-on work with professionals in the field.

but hey, why mess with the facts when your own personal experience contradicts them? if it happened to you and your neighbors it must be that way for everyone, right?

look, anecdotal evidence is IMPORTANT-and perfectly VALID-for you. but when faced with the doj's opinion, it doesn't fit with your experience, so you assume that the stats must be manipulated somehow or outright lies? i didn't call YOU a liar-if you say you have experienced crime, i BELIEVE you. but you automatically assume that ANYONE who contradicts you,from a poster on the internet to the fbi- must be wrong? that's illogical.

if it is a dearly held belief of yours that crime has been on the rise, the facts won’t change that belief.

pacific solo, for myself, i don't belong to the little "club" of county attorneys, gals, social workers, and others-i am an advocate. and so are my colleagues.

good attorneys don't "manipulate" the law; good judges can see right through that and so can their opponents. i don't know what you thought you were experiencing but evidently you didn't come away with a very good understanding of what lawyers do.

i sense here an anti-intellectualism and deep distrust of professionals and information from government, science, academia and professionals. what do you guys do when you need a cop-buy a gun and do it yourself? what will you do if you need a lawyer? represent yourself?

good luck... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

you sound like the posse comitatus.

EponaRoan

Sep. 2, 2005, 02:05 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ghazzu:

I will secon the obedience training, but leave the schutzhund work to the pros.
Otherwise, one is likely to end up with a lawsuit and a dead dog. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Schutzhund isn't the same thing as 'real' personal protection training. It's more of an obedience exercise where the dog will bite a protective sleeve, do bark and holds, etc. It looks scary, but often it's mostly a game to the dog.

Certain breeds can intimidate by their looks alone even if they're actually marshmallows. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

mommy peanut

Sep. 2, 2005, 03:17 AM

I've been following this thread from the start & was wondering if there's been any update on what's going on with the sociopaths? I for one am with the give them what they deserve http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif crowd, regardless of there age or gender! I can't even begin to imagine what I'd do if theis happened to my horse http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Trakehner

Sep. 2, 2005, 04:56 AM

Department of Justice statistics and crime...these numbers are played with for political aims...to pretend they aren't is either stupidity or dishonest.

For example...racially biased attacks, a simple category.

In order to make Blacks seem like they're being attacked by evil racists, here's what they do. If a Hispanic attacks a Black...it's called a White on Black crime. If a White attacks a Hispanic..it's called White on Hispanic crime. Funny, eh? It gets better. Due to more poor Hispanics living in close proximity, competing in the drug business and being general low-lives....these two groups fight a lot with each other, gangs attacking etc. So, all these crimes between the groups are listed as White on Black...which artificially inflates the racial crime numbers.

Another example is rape. When a woman is raped by a Hispanic male, and she is Black...it's called a White on Black rape (which is actually a rare occurrence). Black rape of White females is very common and in no way representative of the population of Black males the number of rapes reported. These numbers are minimized or the race of the criminal "not stated".

You can do all sorts of things with statistics. I have 2 B.S. and an M.S. (business) and M.A. (socy.), so I do know about statistics and behaviours of groups) Which all leads to these girls and scum-sucking lawyers getting them off from the punishment they deserve.

My wife is a lawyer (Geo. Washington Law School) who has never practiced...she says, "She loves the law, but there is no justice as it's practiced by too many defense attorneys"

Cartier

Sep. 2, 2005, 05:12 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> My wife is a lawyer (Geo. Washington Law School) who has never practiced...she says, "She loves the law, but there is no justice as it's practiced by too many defense attorneys" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great school, but did your wife take ANY Con Law??? What’d she study, Brown I and II?

How can anyone with any training in Con Law make disparaging remarks about the quality of justice in 2005 (with the implication that our judicial system was ever just)? Ever hear of Dred Scott? Justice is a reflection of the politics of the times… it is fluid at best… swinging like a pendulum… and it is ALL a matter of perspective. What we abhor in 2005 was common practice in 1950… and actively endorsed at the turn of the last century.

About justice itself, it's a matter of perspective in a democratic society. Basically, if my friends and I prevail under the judicial system, then it is “good and just”… and if I don’t, then I scream like a chicken about injustice.

bjrudq

Sep. 2, 2005, 07:45 AM

she never practiced. that says it all.

Cartier

Sep. 2, 2005, 08:33 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> she never practiced. that says it all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
not really… there can be many reasons for not practicing… and that is an excellent law school…

What we're writing about here are points of view.. I really don’t think there is such a thing as being objectively "right" or "wrong"... this is a dialogue, in which everyone is contributing a valid perspective.

bjrudq

Sep. 2, 2005, 09:00 AM

i don't mean to imply that she's a lousey lawyer because she's never practiced-she may, in fact be smarter than the rest of us!(and not having practiced could be PROOF of that, LOL!)

my point is that you can't possibly know what is involved in the crim justice system unless you've actually been involved in it, or at least spent a considerable amount of time carefully observing it from all povs. although i disagree with her at least pacific has actually bt,dt unlike most of the posters whose contact with the system is based on what they see on tv.

there is no right or wrong here. but i find it disheartening that

1. there is an absence of a presumption of innocence

2. the only source of info that these girls have done this before is the press

3. everyone is assuming that they will get off easy, when they don't know what the law is, and their only source fr the facts is the news

4. any suggestion that maybe these girls need help raises everyone's ire-even though i said that if they are convicted they should be punished whether they need help or not

5. everyone is very willing to believe a news story, but immediately dismisses what the doj, the fbi, the police chiefs and sheriffs have to say about crime! because statistics always lie, and the newspapers never do????

trakehner refers to lawyers as "scumsuckers" (except for his wife) and she says there's no justice as it's practiced by too many defense attorneys? that reflects a fundamental lack of understanding of what the role of the criminal defense lawyer is.

(and btw, how do you develop a "love" for the law when you've never practiced? whatever...)

Trakehner

Sep. 2, 2005, 09:33 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bjrudq:
she never practiced. that says it all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, just shows your ignorance. She wanted a real mental challenge, to utilize the different facets of the law education as tools, and not as a practicing attorney. She uses her legal education, just not in legal practice.

One thing I do recall from her graduation. This one fat ignorant professor, when the graduating class and everyone in the hall said the pledge of allegiance, this fat, black ass sat in his chair on the dais, didn't remove his hat and just had a dirty attitude on him. I'd loved to have seen someone remove his hat and attitude that day. Turns out he's a terrible professor, hated whites and the Government...but was a law professor at GW. Pretty impressive.

slave4tucker

Sep. 2, 2005, 09:40 AM

did not read through all of the post but there is an update. she lost her tail. sorry if this is a repeat.

http://www.chboa.com/dixie.html

onelanerode

Sep. 2, 2005, 09:51 AM

Thanks slave4tucker, I hadn't gotten a chance to read the CHBOA update today or yesterday ... been too caught up with other things. I'll update the title of the thread so people will know ...

Folks, please don't use this thread to bash others, or cast aspersions, or condemn others' beliefs ... that's not what it was started for. Some of the legal talk *is* related to Dixie's case, but a lot of it isn't, or it's getting nasty and personal. Let's not go there, OK?

Cartier

Sep. 2, 2005, 09:51 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">everyone is very willing to believe a news story, but immediately dismisses what the doj, the fbi, the police chiefs and sheriffs have to say about crime! because statistics always lie, and the newspapers never do???? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
What was it Bagdikian said about the concentration of media ownership and the implications of corporatization on traditional journalism ethics, values and the press' role as steward of the public interest? “The American audience, having been exposed to a narrowing range of ideas over the decades, often assumes that what it sees and hears in the major media is all there is. It is no way to maintain a lively marketplace of ideas, which is to say that it is no way to maintain a democracy.”

Trakehner

Sep. 2, 2005, 09:51 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bjrudq:
...my point is that you can't possibly know what is involved in the crim justice system unless you've actually been involved in it”

Sadly, too many people have dealt with criminals and their being back on the streets all too soon due to overburdened prosecutors and some scummy defense attorneys.

“...but i find it disheartening that

1. there is an absence of a presumption of innocence”

Uh, these little harridans were bragging about what they did. There is nothing to imagine.

“the only source of info that these girls have done this before is the press”

And that is because....pause for honesty here....because juvenile records, no matter how ghastly and evil they are, are sealed. So what they did in the past isn’t available except for neighbors who remember their crimes.

“...everyone is assuming that they will get off easy, when they don't know what the law is, and their only source fr the facts is the news”

No, it’s expected they’ll get off easy because they’re young, white and girls...stress on the white and girls. Too many times when the horrible get away with crime. Heck, a lawyer got a guy off for murder using the “twinkie defense” in GB, another murderer got off due to PMS making the woman “crazy”.

“....any suggestion that maybe these girls need help raises everyone's ire-even though i said that if they are convicted they should be punished whether they need help or not.”

Because it’s at the point the population is tired of hearing some defense attorney sob story about the poor criminal and what about him, after all, he’s a victim of society. His mommy didn’t love him, his uncle did, he didn’t feel wanted and so he killed a family of 9 and the family cat.

“... everyone is very willing to believe a news story, but immediately dismisses what the doj, the fbi, the police chiefs and sheriffs have to say about crime! because statistics always lie, and the newspapers never do????”

No, I actually pointed out where the problems can be with the DOJ/UCS. Police chiefs are political animals, so are the FBI and DOJ which is why the racial numbers are played with and skewed, which is why these same people won’t admit, “Hey, it’s Arab muslim males, 17-30 who are the terrorists...not a blue-haired old lady in a wheelchair”...but then, that would be insensitive.

“trakehner refers to lawyers as "scumsuckers" (except for his wife) and she says there's no justice as it's practiced by too many defense attorneys? that reflects a fundamental lack of understanding of what the role of the criminal defense lawyer is.”

All lawyers aren’t scumsuckers, the lawyer who defended the BTK killer was, child molestor lawyers are, the lawyer for these evil brats is, the leftists running to defend Sadam Hussein are and most anyone connected to defending the Kennedy family.

And finally....”and btw, how do you develop a "love" for the law when you've never practiced?

Same way as you can love art without being a painter, music without being a musician...

Sandy M

Sep. 2, 2005, 10:44 AM

So ALL lawyers who defend criminal (as opposed to nice civil defendants like, oh....the Enron people who bankrupted thousands through fraud and deceit) are scumsuckers? Even the vilest defendant is constitutionally entitled to a defense! So if we "know" someone committed a crime, but it's taken to trial, they should go without counsel, because any respectable, non-scumsucking lawyer would not defend them?

How did I miss out on this great "understanding" of attorneys' roles in our justice system after working in law offices for the past 42 years! Fortunately, I currently work in a civil (defense) practice for scumsucking insurance company attorneys.

ejm

Sep. 2, 2005, 11:48 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">All lawyers aren’t scumsuckers, the lawyer who defended the BTK killer was, child molestor lawyers are, the lawyer for these evil brats is, the leftists running to defend Sadam Hussein are and most anyone connected to defending the Kennedy family. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, Rush Limbaugh hired Roy Black for help with his little drug problem. I believe this is the same Roy Black who defended the Kennedy nephew in his rape case a few years back. OTOH, if he'll work for Limbaugh, you are probably correct in saying that he is a scumsucker.

Tabwrdd_ridge

Sep. 3, 2005, 08:00 AM

i know this thread has kind of gone off topic, but i just read on one of the follow up links on the champaign horse website that they may plea these girls out..
here is the information to contact the DA
Vonda and Dixie need our help! Both have been through such a terrible ordeal and can use all the love and support that we can provide! For those of you who can and want to donate funds to help pay for Dixie's veterinary bills, you can donate using your credit card through PayPal.

You may contact the Harnett County DA to express your concern and opinions:
The Honorable Thomas H. Lock
P.O. Box 1029
Smithfield, NC 27577
Phone: 910-814-4500
Thomas.H.Lock@NCCOURTS.ORG

i think we should all encourage him NOT to plead them out if possible.
already sentmy email.

Sep. 3, 2005, 09:44 AM

All I can say is what a shame it is to have this happen. People go through life and things like this happen which is very unfortunate. The girls responsible for this burning should be punished and dealt with properly as this is a sever case of animal cruelty!

My heart goes out to the woman and her family who own this otherwise beautiful horse! I feel so badly for her that this has happened. No animal should have to endure the pain of others!

I wish all the luck and health in the world to this poor horse and I pray that there will be a speedy recovery! It will take time for this to heal and will leave horrible scars as a reminder of how cruel people can be. I pray that the owener finds the strength she needs to pull through this ordeal and I wish her the best of luck. I wish i could do more.

The Fjord Jockey

Sep. 3, 2005, 03:36 PM

What is WRONG with kids these days??

You know, there is a reason that many child psychologists are saying it's best to keep your child at home and try and avoid the school system.

I've worked with a lot of teenagers and I'm sure other younger people on this board can tell you: They are OUT OF CONTROL.

bjrudq

Sep. 3, 2005, 05:14 PM

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

yeah, my teenaged daughter has raised $200 for outr local animal shelter, and the money is still rolling in.

she's definitely out of control. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

one of her best friends volunteers at the local disabled riding club. another makes beaded bracelets and donates her profits to the humane society.

i wonder what the hell's WRONG with kids these days?

Sep. 4, 2005, 04:28 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by The Fjord Jockey:
What is WRONG with kids these days??

You know, there is a reason that many child psychologists are saying it's best to keep your child at home and try and avoid the school system.

I've worked with a lot of teenagers and I'm sure other younger people on this board can tell you: They are OUT OF CONTROL. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Surely you are not implying that the school system made these girls that way???? Or that teachers are to blame for their criminal behavior?
Because the last I checked schools were responsible for teaching content such as literature, math, science, history....my guess is that their lack of concern for another living being came from somewhere else.

MistyBlue

Sep. 4, 2005, 05:03 PM

I'm not Fjord Jockey, but I think her point was keeping your child out of school to help them avoid being around children with little to no values or morals like these girls. Not that the school made them that way, but that their parents did through lack of responsibility and discipline and the teachers don't have the ability or the law behind them to control them. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Just guessing though.
That wouldn't be my choice on protecting my child...I'm of the opinion that my children need to learn to deal with and co-exist with other children like this in a semi-controlled environment and to be able to learn not to bend to peer pressure and make their own decisions on what's right using the tools I gave them at home. However...that being said...if I lived in an area with a higher than usual amount of rotten kids in the school system...I'd sell my house and move to a town with a better school system. Which is what I did. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

gotlucky

Sep. 4, 2005, 07:57 PM

what the hell would posses someone to do this?? what kick could it possibly give you?? and i was reading a post earlier on in the thread about soneone setting a dog on fire?? what the hell???? seriously, how could someone get off on that??? as far as the girls burning off the tail of a horse. the punishment should be that they have their arms tyed behind their backs as the are forever put in a room with mosqtioues(sp?) and flies. no way to help yourselves. i would be ther to watch. anyone else???

KrazyTBMare

Sep. 4, 2005, 10:26 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chaotic mind:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KrazyTBMare:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by chaotic mind:
First off I don't believe the girls did this with hairspray or perfume. If hairspary could do that then in the 50's and early 60's when beehive hairdo's and smoking were all the rage the ER's would have been flooded. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, hairspray can act as a torch. The problem is that a lot of times the flame will burn back up the spray to the can and it could explode in the persons hand. NEVER DONE THIS but Ive heard of it and read it somewhere in school.

QUOTE]

Okay chemestry class. Hair spray right out of the can is more flammable than hairspray that has been exposed to air. Once hairspray is exposed the solvent which keeps it liquid in the can so it can be sprayed very quickly evaporates, which is why when you use hair spray you generally don't wind up with wet hair most of the solvent has evaporated in the trip from the can to your hair. It is this solvent that is the most flammable part of airspray.

I have could go further into the physics of fire but surfice it to say neither hairspray in it's solid state nor hair burns hot enough to cause the kind of damage the horse suffered. My opinion is that the horses tail must have been soaked in something that is both flammable and a source of fuel in it's self such as gasoline. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whoa there. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif I wasnt saying that they did or didnt use hairspray. All I was saying is that hairspray CAN be used as a blowtorch. The end. Thanks. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Declaring

Sep. 5, 2005, 12:43 AM

Been reading the links...

I can't believe that people could

A- Do this
and
B- Brag about and be proud of doing this!

It's so wrong.

When I read that they said the horse had gone screaming across the field with her tail on fire... I wanted to throw up. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

~Freedom~

Sep. 5, 2005, 05:15 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Declaring:

When I read that they said the horse had gone screaming across the field with her tail on fire... I wanted to throw up. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The best and most fitting punishment is to set their hair on fire and have them scampering across the field. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

The Fjord Jockey

Sep. 12, 2005, 10:18 AM

Oh please. Don't take everything so literal, people. I'M a damn teenager, so do you think I was referring to ALL of them??
MistyBlue got it right: that's the point I was trying to get across.
If you don't believe me, come work at the hockey rink I worked at for a few days and see how many times we have to call the cops because the teenagers are out of control when their parents aren't around.

A guy I know goes to one of the most well spoken of high schools in Charleston and was telling us how he saw kids dealing cocaine in the halls and how common it was.

Along with that, teenagers, especially girls, seem to have progressively gotten worse. They don't have any respect for fellow humans, much less an animal.

It takes one to know one and believe me, teens are MUCH worse than when my big sister was in highschool. Odds are, YOU don't see it because you're much older.

Sep. 12, 2005, 10:29 AM

Fjord Jockey - you hit the nail on the head when you said the parents aren't around! There is more truth in that statement than you realize.

I am in education and have been for over 20 years - and trust me teens are not worse (they were this bad when I started way back when) it just seems the numbers are greater and there is more publicity now.

Justina

Sep. 12, 2005, 11:13 AM

Since I know many teenagers that go to public school AND are "latch-key kids"--parents work, kids get themselves off to school on their own or come home to an empty house after school, and these kids are well behaved, responsible individuals....and since the biggest hooligans in my neighborhood are 5 homeschooled children from the same family (those kids have absolutely no respect for anyone else's property and are not being taught to care for animals properly--they've grown up with the idea that animals are expendable, a dime a dozen...no one will convince me that the evil actions of these girls (or other juveniles like them) can be attributed to public school and lack of supervision by their parents. Please. Do you know how many parents turn nasty when their child is accused of doing something bad--they do not reprimand the child, rather they snarl at the accuser & insist that their child would never do any such thing. Kid learns that he/she can do anything he/she wishes to do, and there will be no reprisals because mom or dad will defend. Public school is fine, or would be if all parents would just teach some manners and respect to their little darlings.

These little beasts that did this awful thing then went to school & bragged about how the horse went screaming across the field don't deserve to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. They aren't innocent by their own admission. (Hey, I work for a lawyer & I still have a problem with a scumbag lawyer trying to get someone off when the crime was captured on security video and there is no reasonable doubt that this person committed the crime. Confessions such as the bragging done by these girls rank right there with the security tape IMO.)

I agree witht he above poster that suggested setting their hair on fire & let them go screeching across the field.