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catosis
Sep. 23, 2011, 08:44 PM
Did any other Dressage Today readers see the article about attracting more men to dressage in the United States? Thoughts? Opinions?

IMHO, I felt that the whole article has a slightly sexist undertone... "I agree that there's a crisis in dressage, but I don't know how we can reach the boys coming up." A crisis? Strange. Last time I went to a show, I didn't recall any of the female riders cat fighting over placings with the men rushing around breaking them up. Crisis. Odd use of diction, I think. :lol:

So what do all of you ladies (and gents!) think?

LexInVA
Sep. 23, 2011, 08:49 PM
It's a magazine-only article, so there is no way anyone can offer an opinion without reading the magazine.

Mike Matson
Sep. 23, 2011, 08:53 PM
Do you really want stallions mixing with mares? ;) I do hear mares are sometimes okay with geldings. :)

Pony Fixer
Sep. 23, 2011, 09:05 PM
Odd use of diction,

That's what she said! OK, I couldn't resist, given the subject. :lol:

BaroquePony
Sep. 23, 2011, 09:09 PM
Well, I haven't read the article, but one of the main reasons that I hesitate to show professionally, or even go to clinics provided by major political players, any more has been due to the influx of very competitive women.

Unlike the military men who were the basic founders of dressage, the modern female is undisiciplined in the sport and quit often duplicitous (two-faced) and perfectly willing to cause a serious accident or injury, while saying *it* was an *accident*.

And, yes, I have been invited to dinners with the Chef (dressage) in Region II and to dinners with Pan Am judges (Texas), as well as other social events of equal caliber.

I have ridden in the clinics and shows.

catosis
Sep. 23, 2011, 09:15 PM
It's a magazine-only article, so there is no way anyone can offer an opinion without reading the magazine.

Oh, calm down. There are quite a few DT readers on here. For those of you who are not subscribers, here is a short synopsis:

The article interviewed a bunch of the top male riders who said that there weren't enough men in dressage and then proceeded to talk about fashion and how fabulously Edward Gal dresses.

mildot
Sep. 23, 2011, 10:43 PM
The article interviewed a bunch of the top male riders who said that there weren't enough men in dressage and then proceeded to talk about fashion and how fabulously Edward Gal dresses.
:lol: :o

Maybe that's why?

BTW, I'm a straight, married guy with kids and I like dressage. I'm even trying to learn it.

mackandblues
Sep. 23, 2011, 10:57 PM
[QUOTE=BaroquePony;5856145]Unlike the military men who were the basic founders of dressage, the modern female is undisiciplined in the sport and quit often duplicitous (two-faced) and perfectly willing to cause a serious accident or injury, while saying *it* was an *accident*.

QUOTE]

seriously?!?!

TheHorseProblem
Sep. 23, 2011, 11:09 PM
I thought the whole issue was kinda lame. I really liked the training challenge article about Wetten Das, but come on, who are your readers, DT?

It seemed unfair to sift through the dressage clinic submissions to find some boys to critique.

They have the baroque issue, the breeding issue, now the boy issue?:no:

dragonharte8
Sep. 23, 2011, 11:23 PM
Unlike the military men who were the basic founders of dressage, the modern female is undisiciplined in the sport and quit often duplicitous (two-faced) and perfectly willing to cause a serious accident or injury, while saying *it* was an *accident*.

BaroquePony.
Is the last part of your statement after the 'and' made in jest?

I do believe that there is much duplicitious attitudes in dressage and that is equal for men and women. Personal integrity in life in general is vanishing into the void and the entire horse world has its share in all venues.

Addressing the article;
More men in dressage would be nice, however, one must ask the men why they do not participate rather than make assumptions. What prevents males from striving for upper levels of competitive dressage, much less what prevents males from competiting at lower levels?
I believe it would be productive for dressage if there was a system created to do an indepth survey of male riders and discover their reasons for not participating in dressage. Of course the survey and results should come from outside a dressage based institution such as DT.

LexInVA
Sep. 23, 2011, 11:39 PM
:lol: :o

Maybe that's why?

BTW, I'm a straight, married guy with kids and I like dressage. I'm even trying to learn it.

Masochist? :lol:

LexInVA
Sep. 23, 2011, 11:54 PM
BaroquePony.
Is the last part of your statement after the 'and' made in jest?

I do believe that there is much duplicitious attitudes in dressage and that is equal for men and women. Personal integrity in life in general is vanishing into the void and the entire horse world has its share in all venues.

Addressing the article;
More men in dressage would be nice, however, one must ask the men why they do not participate rather than make assumptions. What prevents males from striving for upper levels of competitive dressage, much less what prevents males from competiting at lower levels?
I believe it would be productive for dressage if there was a system created to do an indepth survey of male riders and discover their reasons for not participating in dressage. Of course the survey and results should come from outside a dressage based institution such as DT.

It's just like the Army screaming about the fact that the officers they want to keep are leaving in droves. Things are just not working in their favor and most of the problems are solely the fault of the institution and culture.

TickleFight
Sep. 24, 2011, 01:38 PM
Do you really want stallions mixing with mares? ;) I do hear mares are sometimes okay with geldings. :)

Speaking as a mare, I prefer mixing with stallions.

Carol Ames
Sep. 24, 2011, 01:45 PM
Crisis. Odd use of diction, I think. :lol:




I agree :yes:save "crisis:eek:" for the mid east, budget:winkgrin: and EHV-1`







Did any other Dressage Today readers see the article about attracting more men to dressage in the United States? Thoughts? Opinions?

IMHO, I felt that the whole article has a slightly sexist undertone... "I agree that there's a crisis in dressage, but I don't know how we can reach the boys coming up." A crisis? Strange. Last time I went to a show, I didn't recall any of the female riders cat fighting over placings with the men rushing around breaking them up. Crisis. Odd use of diction, I think. :lol:

So what do all of you ladies (and gents!) think?

SnicklefritzG
Sep. 24, 2011, 02:45 PM
:lol: :o

Maybe that's why?

BTW, I'm a straight, married guy with kids and I like dressage. I'm even trying to learn it.

Do you have any brothers who are single? :)

mildot
Sep. 24, 2011, 03:24 PM
Do you have any brothers who are single? :)

He's legally single (AFAIK) but he's of the Gal persuasion, so if you are a woman that might not work out too well. ;)

rodawn
Sep. 24, 2011, 03:32 PM
Speaking as a mare, I prefer mixing with stallions.

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

alicen
Sep. 24, 2011, 06:53 PM
IMHO, I felt that the whole article has a slightly sexist undertone... "I agree that there's a crisis in dressage, but I don't know how we can reach the boys coming up."
So what do all of you ladies (and gents!) think?

Maybe if the girls let them win?

catosis
Sep. 24, 2011, 08:07 PM
Maybe if the girls let them win?

Yeah, that would probably do the trick: Make women not place so that they could stroke the male ego. Oops! I just let some of my angry feminist out again.

Oh, Dressage Today, how your quality has waned!

TheHorseProblem
Sep. 24, 2011, 09:58 PM
Here are some dressage men for ya:

http://www.phelpsphotos.com/copyrightPhotos/108435.jpg

smokygirl
Sep. 24, 2011, 10:07 PM
Well, I haven't read the article, but one of the main reasons that I hesitate to show professionally, or even go to clinics provided by major political players, any more has been due to the influx of very competitive women.

Unlike the military men who were the basic founders of dressage, the modern female is undisiciplined in the sport and quit often duplicitous (two-faced) and perfectly willing to cause a serious accident or injury, while saying *it* was an *accident*.

And, yes, I have been invited to dinners with the Chef (dressage) in Region II and to dinners with Pan Am judges (Texas), as well as other social events of equal caliber.

I have ridden in the clinics and shows.


I can agree with that somewhat. Women are lovely, but when they aren't behaving.. they tend to be a lot sneakier about it. When a man is a jackass, he usually shows it all the time (or at least the majority of the time).

2tempe
Sep. 24, 2011, 10:18 PM
Well, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that there almost no men showing in the amateur ranks and not a huge number among the professionals.
Is it a crisis? Well, if I thought I was taking up dressage to find a man, yes, definitely crisis mode. But then I've always said I needed to find a Cowboy. That requires dusting off my chaps, buying a western saddle and heading down the road, which at this point is just too much work:lol:

Sunsets
Sep. 25, 2011, 04:33 AM
So, tell me, WHY is this a problem? There are more women than men in the sport.

Why do we need to change that? There are plenty of sports and hobbies where the majority of participants are male - no one calls "crisis" because there aren't enough women participating.

As long as those of us involved in dressage are welcoming and fair to all who wish to participate, I don't see that we have an issue.

mildot
Sep. 25, 2011, 09:35 AM
So, tell me, WHY is this a problem? There are more women than men in the sport.

Why do we need to change that? There are plenty of sports and hobbies where the majority of participants are male - no one calls "crisis" because there aren't enough women participating.

As long as those of us involved in dressage are welcoming and fair to all who wish to participate, I don't see that we have an issue.

I totally agree with your first and last paragraphs. And I also agree that calling this type of issue a "crisis" borders on exaggeration.

But I see nothing wrong with actively expanding a sport's appeal beyond its traditional base.

However, there are some male-dominated sports that do want to actively encourage women to join in.

Eclectic Horseman
Sep. 25, 2011, 10:03 AM
I think it is probably about $$$. (Last time that I checked, it makes the world go round.)

Whether we like it or not, women's sports simply do not have the spectator, advertising and sponsor appeal that men's sports have. That's pretty much true from golf to football. And Title IX hasn't made a damn bit of difference. Don't ask me why. I think it may have to do with women themselves--they will watch and be fans of men's sports, but they have no interest in women's sports any more than men do.

Dressage constitutes a fairly marginalized segment of what is perceived by most non-horse people as an antiquated elitist western european sport (equestrianism.) Without an influx of both children and MEN, the sport is not only not going to grow, it is going to dwindle into virtual extinction.

I don't like it, but I think it is probably true. I'm such a pessimist due to the economy, globalization, increased population and urban sprawl, that I don't even think that children and men could save dressage for too many more generations. :cry:

fish
Sep. 25, 2011, 10:06 AM
So, tell me, WHY is this a problem? There are more women than men in the sport.

Why do we need to change that? There are plenty of sports and hobbies where the majority of participants are male - no one calls "crisis" because there aren't enough women participating.

As long as those of us involved in dressage are welcoming and fair to all who wish to participate, I don't see that we have an issue.

Thank you!!!! Long been saying I might start worrying about small # of men in horse sports when people started bemoaning the paucity of women playing football, racing cars.....

fish
Sep. 25, 2011, 10:30 AM
I think it is probably about $$$. (Last time that I checked, it makes the world go round.)

Whether we like it or not, women's sports simply do not have the spectator, advertising and sponsor appeal that men's sports have. That's pretty much true from golf to football. And Title IX hasn't made a damn bit of difference. Don't ask me why. I think it may have to do with women themselves--they will watch and be fans of men's sports, but they have no interest in women's sports any more than men do.

Dressage constitutes a fairly marginalized segment of what is perceived by most non-horse people as an antiquated elitist western european sport (equestrianism.) Without an influx of both children and MEN, the sport is not only not going to grow, it is going to dwindle into virtual extinction.

I don't like it, but I think it is probably true. I'm such a pessimist due to the economy, globalization, increased population and urban sprawl, that I don't even think that children and men could save dressage for too many more generations. :cry:

this reminds me a bit of what my father used to say back in the 50's-- that the domestic horse would soon go extinct because it had been rendered obsolete by autos, tractors. Indeed, the horse population did decline dramatically for a while-- only to come back with a vengeance as appreciation of horses for pleasure, therapy, etc., grew. I don't know about dressage per se, but I believe enough in the historic (and even prehistoric) magnetism between humans and horses to think it will continue to adapt and survive environmental changes. Yes, there are some "non-horse people" out there, but it seems to me that the numbers of those fascinated by horses is legion, and continuing to grow.

BaroquePony
Sep. 25, 2011, 10:33 AM
Posted by Eclectic Horseman:

I think it is probably about $$$. (Last time that I checked, it makes the world go round.)

Whether we like it or not, women's sports simply do not have the spectator, advertising and sponsor appeal that men's sports have. That's pretty much true from golf to football. And Title IX hasn't made a damn bit of difference. Don't ask me why. I think it may have to do with women themselves--they will watch and be fans of men's sports, but they have no interest in women's sports any more than men do.

Dressage constitutes a fairly marginalized segment of what is perceived by most non-horse people as an antiquated elitist western european sport (equestrianism.) Without an influx of both children and MEN, the sport is not only not going to grow, it is going to dwindle into virtual extinction.

I don't like it, but I think it is probably true. I'm such a pessimist due to the economy, globalization, increased population and urban sprawl, that I don't even think that children and men could save dressage for too many more generations, :cry:

This ^ :yes:.

It isn't just the women, but the means.

One of the reasons that men are more straight forward about almost everything is because they have had centuries of TEAM training. They are REQUIRED to work together in order to become winners (or losers, but then again they all lose together).

Another reason is that men are in control of most of the assets in the US through the banking system and the legal system and the political system :yes:.

Have any of you seen any women going to federal prison for embezzling 50 billion dollars???

I cannot tell you how many women I know that have *lost* a great deal of money due specifically to abusive men in a marrriage. Many.

It gets worse than that though when Michael Vick gets million dollar contracts (professional), while women seem to have very few sports scholarships offered at all (so that they can *skate* through school getting a degree while focusing mainly on their sport so that they can land a large contract coming right out of school).

mildot
Sep. 25, 2011, 10:37 AM
Thank you!!!! Long been saying I might start worrying about small # of men in horse sports when people started bemoaning the paucity of women playing football, racing cars.....

I don't think there's a huge male plot to keep women out of "male" sports.

IDK much about football or auto racing, but I do know quite a bit about the shooting sports and a lot about the disciplines of sporting clays, highpower rifle, and defensive pistol.

These are all sports in which strength and speed play no major role and women are definitely on an equal performance footing with men. Despite that, the shooting sports for years have been trying to find a way to broaden their appeal to women without much success.

Women, for several reasons, do not in general want to compete in shooting sports. The organizing bodies are certainly not trying to keep them out.

Some male dominated sports will never have women integrated with men due to the physical nature of the competition. That's just reality.

Some physically intensive sports have created their parallel universe (WNBA) and failed.

Some sports in which women can easily compete with men may actively discourage women, but I have no evidence of it.

And others actively pursue women to join but are shunned by women.

mildot
Sep. 25, 2011, 10:40 AM
This ^ :yes:.

It isn't just the women, but the means.

One of the reasons that men are more straight forward about almost everything is because they have had centuries of TEAM training. They are REQUIRED to work together in order to become winners (or losers, but then again they all lose together).

Another reason is that men are in control of most of the assets in the US through the banking system and the legal system and the political system :yes:.

Have any of you seen any women going to federal prison for embezzling 50 billion dollars???

I cannot tell you how many women I know that have *lost* a great deal of money due specifically to abusive men in a marrriage. Many.

It gets worse than that though when Michael Vick gets million dollar contracts (professional), while women seem to have very few sports scholarships offered at all (so that they can *skate* through school getting a degree while focusing mainly on their sport so that they can land a large contract coming right out of school).

Yep, it's all one big conspiracy......:confused:

mildot
Sep. 25, 2011, 10:54 AM
I just remembered. I asked a similar question on the H/J board. Some good discussion and interesting insights that would probably apply to all english disciplines: http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=316842&highlight=men

catosis
Sep. 25, 2011, 11:23 AM
I just remembered. I asked a similar question on the H/J board. Some good discussion and interesting insights that would probably apply to all english disciplines: http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=316842&highlight=men

That thread does have some good discussion on it, the only difference is that a magazine read by a large number of people actually contributed an entire issue to it and then went so far as to include a quote in which a contributor called the lack of men in dressage a crisis. PUH-lease. :rolleyes:

Yep, my inner tree hugging vegan feminist is certainly going to come out in full force... And possibly write a letter to the editor.

Eclectic Horseman
Sep. 25, 2011, 12:05 PM
Yep, it's all one big conspiracy......:confused:

Conspiracy implies INTENT. I don't think that anyone is intending to keep women or men out. It is just what happens. For example, many deals and relationships are made on the (mostly all male) golf course (or in the Obama administration, the basketball court) and since the people who are involved in those activities are men, it has the effect of excluding women, when by no means is that intended by anyone. But if you look at the miniscule percentage of women CEOs and corporate Board members, this is one of the causes--not planned or intentional--it just is.

BaroquePony
Sep. 25, 2011, 12:05 PM
Posted by mildot:

Yep, it's all one big conspiracy......:confused:

Not sure how you came to the conclusion that I was even suggesting any sort of conspiracy, although I am sure that conspiracies do occur, but they are small subsets of the general population.

I was drawing on both personal experience, as well as studies and statistics.

It is a very broad subject, so maybe just posting a few ideas without going into some kind of complicated novel about all of it wasn't such a good idea ... leaves the door wide open for misunderstanding.

Eclectic Horseman
Sep. 25, 2011, 12:13 PM
this reminds me a bit of what my father used to say back in the 50's-- that the domestic horse would soon go extinct because it had been rendered obsolete by autos, tractors. Indeed, the horse population did decline dramatically for a while-- only to come back with a vengeance as appreciation of horses for pleasure, therapy, etc., grew. I don't know about dressage per se, but I believe enough in the historic (and even prehistoric) magnetism between humans and horses to think it will continue to adapt and survive environmental changes. Yes, there are some "non-horse people" out there, but it seems to me that the numbers of those fascinated by horses is legion, and continuing to grow.


The WORK horse IS history.

In different parts of the country (such as the north shore of Mass where I am) equestrian sports are dwindling, mostly because of the huge expense. Where costs like property taxes, employment taxes, insurance, housing, wages are high, as are the costs of feed because it cannot be grown locally, and there is no land available because of housing development. Some equestrians from my area are going north to NH, but those who have to work in the high tech suburbs or in the city of Boston, cannot commute that far. As a result, farms and stables are closing, and there many vacancies at others. Facilities with cross country courses are diminishing every day.

I believe there is only one stable in all of MA where the public can lease horses to go out on trail rides, guided or otherwise.

The picture is not so rosy as you believe in areas with urban sprawl.

CFFarm
Sep. 25, 2011, 01:15 PM
As someone posted in another thread, on another topic:

Tthe first testicular guard, the "Cup" was used in Hockey in 1874 and the first helmet was used in 1974. That means it only took 100 years for men to realize that their brain is also important."

I think when more men realize that women find male dressage riders attractive, they'll catch on.

Give them time.

mickeydoodle
Sep. 25, 2011, 01:32 PM
[quote=CFFarm;5858271]As someone posted in another thread, on another topic:

Tthe first testicular guard, the "Cup" was used in Hockey in 1874 and the first helmet was used in 1974. That means it only took 100 years for men to realize that their brain is also important."

I



that is funny!!!!!!

mickeydoodle
Sep. 25, 2011, 01:35 PM
and speaking of duplicitous, what female rider (dressage or jumpers, or any discipline) has been caught in fradulent deals? Kickbacks? Look at the TB industry as an example..................

BaroquePony
Sep. 25, 2011, 01:44 PM
Not sure, but I think of it as men taking part more often in Organized Crime, whereas women seem to be stuck taking part in Disorganized Crime :lol:.

I have similar descriptions of the differences between the North and the South :yes:.

rainechyldes
Sep. 25, 2011, 02:11 PM
I think it's more simpler that that.
I'll use our local pony club as an example (where many 'adult' riders have gotten their start)

we have 30 kids.
28 girls
2 boys (mine)
Of the girls more then 50% of them - their parents don't ride/know nothing about horses, bought a pony for the DD and put then in pony club.

In the 10 years plus I've been involved in the local PC - I've seen my boys and 1 other boy in. the other boy also had horsey parents.

Parents unless they are horsey themselves, tend to lean towards soccer/baseball/ etc - other more team orientated sports for their boys - then thinking hey! I'll get them riding lessons.

Riding lessons(where most children start) for the most part isn't a sport that proud parents can stand and cheer and whistle on the sidelines, and release their inner NFL child out.

CFFarm
Sep. 25, 2011, 02:21 PM
Girls want to be elegant. Boys want to be John Wayne.

mildot
Sep. 25, 2011, 02:40 PM
The WORK horse IS history.

In different parts of the country (such as the north shore of Mass where I am) equestrian sports are dwindling, mostly because of the huge expense. Where costs like property taxes, employment taxes, insurance, housing, wages are high, as are the costs of feed because it cannot be grown locally, and there is no land available because of housing development. Some equestrians from my area are going north to NH, but those who have to work in the high tech suburbs or in the city of Boston, cannot commute that far. As a result, farms and stables are closing, and there many vacancies at others. Facilities with cross country courses are diminishing every day.

I believe there is only one stable in all of MA where the public can lease horses to go out on trail rides, guided or otherwise.

The picture is not so rosy as you believe in areas with urban sprawl.

Thankfully much of the country is not like that

mildot
Sep. 25, 2011, 02:41 PM
Not sure how you came to the conclusion that I was even suggesting any sort of conspiracy, although I am sure that conspiracies do occur, but they are small subsets of the general population.

I was drawing on both personal experience, as well as studies and statistics.

It is a very broad subject, so maybe just posting a few ideas without going into some kind of complicated novel about all of it wasn't such a good idea ... leaves the door wide open for misunderstanding.
Quite likely. My apologies if I misunderstood you.

Sunsets
Sep. 25, 2011, 04:06 PM
Some very nice points made here.

I like what's been noted about men tending to be more "team-based" while women go the "disorganized sports" route :lol:

My own opinion is that that is changing, and for the better. Lots more women now have had the opporunity to play team sports in high school and college (and say what you will about Title IX, it HAS had a positive impact). The same women are now in the workforce and moving up through the ranks, in part because they are familiar with how to "play the game". My mostly women's saturday night hockey team (average age of ~ 37) includes a couple of rocket scientists, engineers, a high-level finance officer, an MD, and a college professor.

I play rec level ice hockey with various groups of people. I've noticed a huge difference in the way men and women learn to play the game. If they've played any team sport in the past, they quickly figure out how to fit in with their hockey linemates. If they haven't, well, it can take some time for them to understand the dynamic of the game.

So what does this have to do with dressage? Dressage is still a team sport. At the very least we need teamwork between horse and rider. Usually we need to seek out instruction, and understand how to use that instruction to improve ourselves. (Otherwise known as "coaching" in other sports). If we compete, we need to learn how to win and lose gracefully. All of these things can be picked up on the baseball field as well as in the ring.

Perhaps if more guys (and gals!) realized this, there might be more interest in the sport. Unfortunately, the money involved, and the logistics of keeping a horse often keep people away. And that's too bad. They're missing out!

sweetas
Sep. 25, 2011, 06:47 PM
I, too, have a 10 year old boy in pony club. He is waaaaay in the minority. I totally agree with what the poster on the previous page said - boys are encouraged to go into other sports. People almost seem to think it's weird to see a boy riding at all. When 100 years ago, riding was considered predominantly a male sport. There are many things today competing for a boy's attention. I also think sometimes that all the fluffy cartoons (My Little Pony, etc) have made horses seem girly.

And, some of the girls aren't always all that nice to my son. He stays in because he believes in the pony club ideals and he loves to ride (and he loves the precision of dressage). These same girls are going to be wishing for horsey men to date in a few years. And get this, these same pre-teen (and sometimes teenaged) girls are the same ones who faun all over some of the male trainers. Is that weird or what?

If we look across the pond, isn't it much more common to see men riding? And aren't many of them straight? I used to dance ballet. Same thing - the only American men who danced didn't like girls. American boys don't dance because it's for sissies. The most muscular men I have known were European dancers who came to America (and they were straight). And they got to lift (meaning put their hands on) girls wearing skimpy leotards. Us Americans are so silly sometimes.

I don't see the lack of males coming into the English riding discipline as a crisis, but it is kind of a tragedy, don't you think?

fish
Sep. 25, 2011, 07:10 PM
I don't see the lack of males coming into the English riding discipline as a crisis, but it is kind of a tragedy, don't you think?

No, not at all --- especially considering how long it took for women to be even allowed to ride astride, in races, in the Olympic Sports....

Trakehner
Sep. 25, 2011, 10:09 PM
More men in dressage would be nice, however, one must ask the men why they do not participate rather than make assumptions. What prevents males from striving for upper levels of competitive dressage, much less what prevents males from competiting at lower levels?

Now c'mon, think of the areas where males typically show, both english and western...or perhaps better, where they don't typically show...e.g. Hunters and Dressage.

Both hunters and dressage tend to be beauty contests. The judge "feels" this rider did a better job than that rider. They may like their horse's breed/colour/tack/BNT etc. so that's who wins. We've all been at hunter shows and watched a kid who fell off her pony win the class. Remember Anky not bothering to even fully stop her horse in the Olympics and she won...that sucked!

Guys prefer to compete where there's a clock to beat, a pole to knock down or points for goals. If we win, we want to be able to point at the clock and show we earned it! There were hunter classes I won because I was the only guy in the show...I didn't deserve to win and my teammates knew it too.

Most guys I know love Caprilli dressage tests, never met a DQ yet who'd ever do one on a bet...too scary and not "Real" dressage anyway!

Dressage and hunters will never draw males like jumpers or western will (real western, not the dayglo girls on ghastly peanut rolling horses.)

dragonharte8
Sep. 25, 2011, 10:12 PM
Trakehner:

So very well stated:)

HollysHobbies
Sep. 26, 2011, 10:12 AM
Maybe we should do horse show mixers...a western show and dressage show at the same time and venue...

Kind of like when I was in college and the education school held their classes in the engineering school classrooms...I'm convinced that was an attempt at a mixer. :lol:

On a side note, I'd love to do a Caprilli class. I jump once a week and even take jumping lessons occasionally--because it's good for my horses mentally and physically. It's called a DQOF!!

Shenandoah
Sep. 26, 2011, 10:29 AM
I found the issue of DT boring other than the article by David de Wisphalere (sp?) and the Q and A section. No interest in reading Parra's article either. I was hoping to read more of Mary Wanless and other articles on position and effectiveness. Love Courtney's article of course. It took me all of 1/2 hour to be done with it. Now I have to wait until next month...

inspired
Sep. 26, 2011, 10:44 AM
Girls want to be elegant. Boys want to be John Wayne.

Yup, I think that sums it up. I've spent enough time talking to men over the years about dressage. One trainer I learned a lot from had both western and dressage horses in training. He showed the western horses, and refused to show the dressage horses. He always said he wouldn't be caught dead in breeches. Another man I know rides his wives dressage horses on occasion to help her out. He's a heck of a rider, but terribly embarrassed to be caught in a dressage saddle. He thinks it's just not manly.

mildot
Sep. 26, 2011, 11:51 AM
One trainer I learned a lot from had both western and dressage horses in training. He showed the western horses, and refused to show the dressage horses. He always said he wouldn't be caught dead in breeches. Another man I know rides his wives dressage horses on occasion to help her out. He's a heck of a rider, but terribly embarrassed to be caught in a dressage saddle. He thinks it's just not manly.
WTF is with the insecurity of so many American men?

I mean, come on. They'll wear nut huggers to play football, wrestle (two guys groping each other :no:), swim, dive, and play water polo, but won't wear something far less revealing to ride a horse?

And a dressage saddle is not manly? It's just a piece of effing leather, for chrissake!

Guys wanna be John Wayne? John Wayne was an actor and was even, from what I hear, afraid of horses.

Manly isn't wearing Wranglers and riding around in cowboy gear. Manly is standing to with your boat crew in the middle of the night, watching huge waves slam the side of the ship and waiting for the order to launch and try to rescue a helicopter crew out of the water knowing full well that you might not come back.

I'm not impressed by the excuses. Serious weaksauce.

alicen
Sep. 26, 2011, 05:48 PM
One trainer I learned a lot from had both western and dressage horses in training. He showed the western horses, and refused to show the dressage horses. He always said he wouldn't be caught dead in breeches. He thinks it's just not manly.

Not manly? His behavior sounds cowardly to me.

danceronice
Sep. 26, 2011, 06:49 PM
If we look across the pond, isn't it much more common to see men riding? And aren't many of them straight? I used to dance ballet. Same thing - the only American men who danced didn't like girls. American boys don't dance because it's for sissies. The most muscular men I have known were European dancers who came to America (and they were straight). And they got to lift (meaning put their hands on) girls wearing skimpy leotards. Us Americans are so silly sometimes.

I don't see the lack of males coming into the English riding discipline as a crisis, but it is kind of a tragedy, don't you think?

Rather like American men who don't dance (and, for that matter, a lot of women I know) want to know if my male ballroom teachers are straight (yes. Overwhelmingly, actually, including the Americans. Skating..okay, fair enough, that stereotype IS true and most of the North American guys are gay. Except in ice dance, most of them are straight. But the disciplines that involve hands-on with women and which are dominated by the Brits and Eastern Europeans? Straight. And yes, some do take advantage of the overwhelming numerical situation in their favor.) Culturally, American boys who ride are supposed to be cowboys, not wear white breeches and gloves. Europe, not such a problem.

According to my mother, my brother only started riding because I did and he kind of got dragged along. So I have no idea if he'd have ended up riding English if I hadn't (meaning that was the horse we had.)

Trakehner
Sep. 26, 2011, 10:13 PM
WTF is with the insecurity of so many American men? And a dressage saddle is not manly? It's just a piece of effing leather, for chrissake!

Guys wanna be John Wayne? John Wayne was an actor and was even, from what I hear, afraid of horses.

Manly isn't wearing Wranglers and riding around in cowboy gear. Manly is standing to with your boat crew in the middle of the night, watching huge waves slam the side of the ship and waiting for the order to launch and try to rescue a helicopter crew out of the water knowing full well that you might not come back.I'm not impressed by the excuses. Serious weaksauce.

Uh, phew, got some problems with guys? American males aren't insecure no matter what women want to label them as dyfunctional barely human beings, no more than what guys think the modern women are...psycho feminazis with daddy issues and enough baggage to fill a wagon.

We hear one story of what a guy supposedly said, and all males are tarred as wimps for not riding in a dressage saddle. Guess what, a saddle that fits her butt will probably not fit a guy...too narrow a twist and unless she's got the typical DQ rear end, the saddle will be too small and who wants to ride in too small a saddle?

John Wayne wasn't afraid of horses, he didn't like em'...big difference. Guys like what the characters John Wayne/Jimmy Stewart/Robert Duvall played stood for...they know the difference between the actor and the role. Better them than the skanks modern women seem to like (Gaga, Perry etc.)

Who ever said manly was riding in Wranglers? Manly is going to a job you hate to support your family. Manly is registering for the draft (something no woman has ever had to do, and please no BS about males starting wars, no 18 year old ever started a war). Manly is going down in a mine, working dangerous jobs, protecting your family, working all week and still going to a weekend horse show because their daughter is showing.

That you're not impressed by the excuses means nothing to guys. We don't really give a damn what women think of our masculinity, ask us what we think of modern femininity? Ask us what we think of your behaviour and responsibility for your own actions and life? You may not like a lot of the answers you hear.

mildot
Sep. 26, 2011, 10:53 PM
Uh, phew, got some problems with guys? American males aren't insecure no matter what women want to label them as dyfunctional barely human beings, no more than what guys think the modern women are...psycho feminazis with daddy issues and enough baggage to fill a wagon.

We hear one story of what a guy supposedly said, and all males are tarred as wimps for not riding in a dressage saddle. Guess what, a saddle that fits her butt will probably not fit a guy...too narrow a twist and unless she's got the typical DQ rear end, the saddle will be too small and who wants to ride in too small a saddle?

John Wayne wasn't afraid of horses, he didn't like em'...big difference. Guys like what the characters John Wayne/Jimmy Stewart/Robert Duvall played stood for...they know the difference between the actor and the role. Better them than the skanks modern women seem to like (Gaga, Perry etc.)

Who ever said manly was riding in Wranglers? Manly is going to a job you hate to support your family. Manly is registering for the draft (something no woman has ever had to do, and please no BS about males starting wars, no 18 year old ever started a war). Manly is going down in a mine, working dangerous jobs, protecting your family, working all week and still going to a weekend horse show because their daughter is showing.

That you're not impressed by the excuses means nothing to guys. We don't really give a damn what women think of our masculinity, ask us what we think of modern femininity? Ask us what we think of your behaviour and responsibility for your own actions and life? You may not like a lot of the answers you hear.
Dude.

I'm a guy. USNA alumni and former naval officer. Faithful husband of 22 years and father who provides for his family doing a job that is often not fun, and will gladly either pull the trigger or take the bullet to protect them.

No explanation on how to be a man is needed here.

AllWeatherGal
Sep. 27, 2011, 08:49 AM
Both hunters and dressage tend to be beauty contests. The judge "feels" this rider did a better job than that rider. They may like their horse's breed/colour/tack/BNT etc. so that's who wins. We've all been at hunter shows and watched a kid who fell off her pony win the class. Remember Anky not bothering to even fully stop her horse in the Olympics and she won...that sucked!


You're just trying to pull someone's pony-tail or you really don't get it. ONE poor movement does not represent the entire sport.

*mumbling to self*
Just like one male poster does not represent the entire gender.

Edited: ... The draft was/is a matter of law, not preference. Just because women weren't required to register doesn't mean that many didn't sign up and serve.

Going back to the pony-tail pulling, pot-stirring, bored-with-life theory.

CapitolDesign
Sep. 27, 2011, 12:05 PM
I was forwarded this thread and wanted to send everyone the online link to the complete article (http://www.equisearch.com/horses_riding_training/english/dressage/wanted-more-men-in-dressage/) so that they could read it:

http://www.equisearch.com/horses_riding_training/english/dressage/wanted-more-men-in-dressage/

YogaFriend
Sep. 27, 2011, 12:34 PM
I was very fascinated to read the linked article after all the talk on this thread. Thought it would be some over the top, sexist junk and couldn't wait to see how the quality of Dressage T. is "waning". Not sure what some of you were reading, but I thought it was a good article. There are boys in our region that need this sort of support and I personally think it is weird that we don't have more men at shows. Why are you focusing on the parts of this you didn't like when we should discuss the fact that if more men ride dressage our sport will grow considerably. We are talking about 1/2 the population!

Gloria
Sep. 27, 2011, 02:50 PM
I myself don't see problem with the article either. It raises some good question why this sport has become so dominated by females, which is kind of sad, because in reality this is probably one of the very rare sports where men and women can really compete together on equal footing.

Men and women ride differently. I always think if men could ride a bit more like women, and women a bit more like men, they both benefit and become better riders.

Velvet
Sep. 27, 2011, 03:05 PM
My thought, based solely on the OP, is who cares?

Seriously, no one is wondering how to bring women up to play football at the NFL level because the sport is suffering without them.

Whatever. I think it's fine. At least the people who are attracted to our sport are willing to throw money at it. :yes:

Oh, and I did read BaroquePony's reply about women being duplicitous, etc., and wanted to say that men behave that way as well and that I was not really overly impressed with whom you've shared dinner. :lol: :lol:

InWhyCee Redux
Sep. 27, 2011, 04:58 PM
Dressage and hunters will never draw males like jumpers or western will (real western, not the dayglo girls on ghastly peanut rolling horses.)

Amen, sister —grew up in 4-H, and while there were "only" about four girls for every guy, those guys rode Western. They roped, they reined, they ran. Maybe if someone in their family bred Walking hosses, they rode saddle seat and wore a suit and tie — but no white breeches, ever.

InWhyCee Redux
Sep. 27, 2011, 05:04 PM
Uh, phew, got some problems with guys? American males aren't insecure no matter what women want to label them as....

OUCH. No, I have no problem with (most) guys, but in my experience BOYS — I'm talking eight, nine, ten-year-olds — DO tend to be insecure.

American boys' disinterest in dressage and H/J probably has A LOT to do with the fact that they don't see their friends (or dads, uncles, cousins, or any guys) riding in an English saddle, but they do see tons of girls in pink half-chaps carrying My Little Pony backpacks.

smokygirl
Sep. 27, 2011, 06:34 PM
OUCH. No, I have no problem with (most) guys, but in my experience BOYS — I'm talking eight, nine, ten-year-olds — DO tend to be insecure.

American boys' disinterest in dressage and H/J probably has A LOT to do with the fact that they don't see their friends (or dads, uncles, cousins, or any guys) riding in an English saddle, but they do see tons of girls in pink half-chaps carrying My Little Pony backpacks.

Can i revise that to, from about 6-18 "ish"...

(girls are too at those ages.. hence the use of t-shirts over bathing suits in gym class when they are 6.. My nephew is in K, and the little girls where t-shirts over there suits already *sigh*).

Eclectic Horseman
Sep. 27, 2011, 06:44 PM
Why would men want to be in a sport in which you can't win any money, when there are so many sports in which you can win and/or earn big bucks? :winkgrin:

dwblover
Sep. 27, 2011, 07:19 PM
I just don't see what the problem is. More women like dressage than men. So what? Why can't we have a female-dominated sport? I see no reason that we have to try to draw more men in. If they choose to ride dressage then fantastic. But why in the world do we have to try to make it more appealing to them? It is what it is, take it or leave it. IMO certainly not worth putting the subject on the cover of a dressage magazine. YAWN.

esdressage
Sep. 27, 2011, 07:41 PM
I think they were looking for something new to discuss in an issue (they, like most other very specific magazines - my husband's golf magazines being another example - likely have the challenge of coming up with new content rather than recycling already discussed subjects) and I don't have a problem with bringing up the relative lack of men in the sport. It is obviously an interesting talking point, as we're going on pages about it here!

NOW, my 2 cents is that I think we need more men playing POLO! I don't care if it's not dressage. There was a polo team at my college and I thought it was very fun to watch the "action", particularly one member of the team who was absolutely yummy ;)

mildot
Sep. 27, 2011, 08:32 PM
Can i revise that to, from about 6-18 "ish"...

(girls are too at those ages.. hence the use of t-shirts over bathing suits in gym class when they are 6.. My nephew is in K, and the little girls where t-shirts over there suits already *sigh*).

Americans of both genders (more so that most other cultures) are taught at an early age to be ashamed of their bodies.

smokygirl
Sep. 27, 2011, 08:36 PM
Americans of both genders (more so that most other cultures) are taught at an early age to be ashamed of their bodies.

I know. I'm just trying to figure out what the girls were covering up? they are 6.

Now my sister when she was 15 refused to go into the pool at school. Upon being told to wear a t-shirt she said "I'm not having a wet t-shirt contest for the boys". But she is unusually "gifted" and it was mixed phys ed.. so more understandable (though i had no issues with it, and i am also "gifted"), but at 6?

Fixating
Sep. 28, 2011, 11:22 AM
I think they were looking for something new to discuss in an issue (they, like most other very specific magazines - my husband's golf magazines being another example - likely have the challenge of coming up with new content rather than recycling already discussed subjects) and I don't have a problem with bringing up the relative lack of men in the sport. It is obviously an interesting talking point, as we're going on pages about it here!

Agreed:yes:
I actually really enjoyed reading something different for a change.

smokygirl
Sep. 28, 2011, 03:24 PM
there are a few good reasons that I think it would be good.

1. Men tend to bring sponsors. (not sure why considering they've found women usually make purchasing decisions).

2. The disciplines that men show in, have significant prize money and sponsorships. (NRHA, NRCHA, NCHA, etc).

3. Equestrian Sports can use all the participants they can get.

Touchstone Farm
Sep. 29, 2011, 02:52 PM
I think the reason their are fewer boys/men in this sport is due to the sports that have been promoted through schools in our country: basketball, football, track, etc. Soccer has grown a lot in the last few years. And perhaps equestrian sports will too, as it is televised and offered via video streaming more and more.

But it isn't a crisis IMO. To each his own (sport)!

Trakehner
Sep. 29, 2011, 08:00 PM
I think the reason their are fewer boys/men in this sport is due to the sports that have been promoted through schools in our country: basketball, football, track, etc. Soccer has grown a lot in the last few years. And perhaps equestrian sports will too, as it is televised and offered via video streaming more and more.

But it isn't a crisis IMO. To each his own (sport)!

I agree...crisis was way too strong...might be the Obama effect where everything is a "crisis".

Fathers dont' tend to support boys with horses, neither do the boys mothers. I see a lot of complaints about not enough heterosexual males involved with horses...if you can't interest the boys/other males you'll never enlarge the pool of fellow equestrians.

Miichelle
Sep. 29, 2011, 10:16 PM
A good friend of mine (ULR, not BNT) spent a few months working in Germany & one of her jobs was teaching the afternoon pony classes. They have easily available afterschool programs like we have soccer & baseball making riding more "do-able" for ALL kids.

Touchstone Farm
Sep. 29, 2011, 11:47 PM
Trakehner wrote: "...(A)gree...crisis was way too strong...might be the Obama effect where everything is a 'crisis'."

Some of the things actually are a bit of a "crisis," thanks to the Teapublicans who took 8 years to get us in this mess. But...we digress! We'll have to take it to the "off topics" section! :-)

amm2cd
Sep. 30, 2011, 02:26 PM
Dude.

I'm a guy. USNA alumni and former naval officer. Faithful husband of 22 years and father who provides for his family doing a job that is often not fun, and will gladly either pull the trigger or take the bullet to protect them.

No explanation on how to be a man is needed here.

Trak, in the words of my generation, I believe that you have just been pwned. :lol:

As for men in dressage... after being around engineers all day, I rather like a little girl time....

netg
Sep. 30, 2011, 04:09 PM
As for men in dressage... after being around engineers all day, I rather like a little girl time....

Same here!

Though it would be nice to meet someone with potential for a relationship in either of the two places I spend most of my time... But my horse needs desensitizing to cattle, and there is a big roping arena one block over... and the guys with racehorses down the street...

Trakehner
Sep. 30, 2011, 08:08 PM
Trak, in the words of my generation, I believe that you have just been pwned. :lol:

Don't know what Mildot's problem was...of course, he was navy, I was Army....maybe reading comprehension was a problem in the academy since what he described was exactly what I'd said. Oh well.

But in the words of my generation...well, the moderators won't let me use the correct words that would fit...so, try reading without moving your lips.