Front cover of DOVER magazine [Archive]

J. Turner

Dec. 20, 2004, 07:39 AM

Well, I'm neither 50, nor an upper level rider. I just know that's Tommy Serio who may be approaching 50 and is an upper level rider.

I don't know why so many pros duck. All I can think of is that they have such a natural feel for their center of balance that they can contort their bodies which ever which way and it certainly doesn't hurt the horse's performance. A lot of the European jumper riders do everything but click their heels in the air behind them over a jump, but, for whatever reason, they still win.

Illyria

Dec. 20, 2004, 07:45 AM

I've been noticing that while they do duck (and sometimes having swinging legs), a lot of them stay more or less in the middle of the saddle (ie they don't seem to be out in front of the horse's motion - their center stays pretty much in the middle of the horse) which maybe is why they don't appear to be hindering the way the horse jumps, even when not in the perfect eq position.

Magnolia

Dec. 20, 2004, 07:46 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> It just gets old after awhile. It seems like it's just a bunch of old hens hanging out on the roost waiting to peck their neighbor's eyes out.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ouch!
That's just one of those topics that gets hashed out all the time. It's almost a monthly tradition. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif I think the general conclusion is that if you are one of those awesome riders, go ahead and duck because you are an incredible rider and hell if we could get our horses to jump like that if we tried, but if you can't find 8 distances, pick to bad distances and "clutch" please don't duck, we don't want you to consume that oxer.

Luckily hunters are judged on horses. I imagine in dressage that the rider score at the end of the test keeps the pros from being slouchy or otherwise incorrect - luckily for the hunter pros they can do anything so long as that horse looks perfect in the air!

findeight

Dec. 20, 2004, 07:53 AM

Who 'you calling a hen http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
But I am, indeed old. Never been an upper level rider either-quit at 3'.

Just kind of tired at always having a post tearing somebody apart based on a photo they did not submit.

Sorry Piaffe, didn't mean to harass you, please keep on posting.

Silver_Lining

Dec. 20, 2004, 08:24 AM

I hafta agree with you.

It is even more annyoing because so many of the younger riders attempt to emulate the pros. They are setting a bad example.

There are plenty of pics of riders jumping well so why don't they show those?

Dec. 20, 2004, 08:40 AM

UltimatePiaffe: Honestly, you have to see HOW these guys do it to understand why it works for them.
First, let me say that I am always being told by my trainer "slow with your shoulders" as my horse is leaving the ground -- to do otherwise encourages a front rub or for them to get quick and flat with their front end.

When, for example, Tommy Serio and Peter Pletcher (criticized on another thread) "duck" with their upper body, they are SUPER slow with their shoulders when the horse leaves the ground, and the rider stays so loose and relaxed that when the horse's bascule continues, the rider just allows the horse's momentum to continue to close their hip angle. These guys are so balanced that they still stay in the middle of the tack, and their weight is still primarily over hips so that they are actually helping their horse stay balanced. In fact, it's type of control and balance by these pros that allow them to do the "lead selection" duck (to one side or another to influence the landing lead).

When the "less coordinated" try this, they (we) tend to throw our upper bodies onto our horse's neck, duck horribly, and lean in such a way to change our balance and that of our horse -- it usually results in the horse NOT jumping up better, jumping flatter, maybe getting quicker, probably rubbing the jump with front end, and landing in a heap. So, it doesn't work the same way for the imitators. And that's why we amateurs should hold our shoulders, be very S L O W with our upper body, quiet with our release, use our eyes (look up!!) to help our balance, and shove our weight down into our heels to make sure we stay in the middle of the tack.

If you watch these guys around the ring, it really is amazing how they encourage the horse to jump up and round.

NOW, even those pros will do this in order to make it appear that a flat-jumping horse is jumping rounder than it really is . . .

Magnolia

Dec. 20, 2004, 09:29 AM

I hope somebody posts a video of one of these guys in action. Everything is quite amazing and smooth and you hardly notice the duck - the riders barely move. The still pictures can be alarming, but the actual round itself is very smooth and still.

It's interesting to me that 95% of jumping photos that are published are of the same 1 second of the jump - the point at which the horse is at the apex. It would be interesting to see more photos critiqued where the horse is landing or taking off or in another stage of jumping.

Heinz 57

Dec. 20, 2004, 09:58 AM

So, LH...

Are you saying that these guys have to lean over the horse's left side to get the left lead? Seems a little extreme to me. I've never seen either of the riders mentioned but I can bet that they are better riders than that! Heck, even I can get the lead I want without leaning and ducking.

Dec. 20, 2004, 10:15 AM

Heinz57

no, no, no, I'm NOT saying that. There was a different thread on which there was a post saying that these guys use that momentum to help them get that lead . . .

I would bet that most of them could probably convey by ESP to the horse which lead, and they would land on the lead of choice. But, if you think about it, if you're leaving the ground and need to land on the right lead, you weight in your left stirrup, right? This could put you on one side of the horse or another, and when the horse leaves the ground, the pro may then, when the bascule *pops* them, end up on one side of the neck. They may use their weight rather than apply leg if the horse is a little "going" and don't want to create more energy on the other side of the fence.

I don't know, for sure, because when my horse jumps a 3'6" oxer, he jumps HARD and it's all I can do to stay in the middle, stay quiet, give a long release and hold my shoulders at the same time. I would guess http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif that it's different for me (just riding one horse), versus these guys with legs of steel riding numerous horses every day. I probably need to drop my stirrups more often . . . http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

But seriously, before anyone criticizes Tommy Serio, et al., you really have to see the masters at work. What you see as a duck in a photo is just one moment in time of a beautiful jump encouraged by the pro rider. Tommy, Ken Smith, Scott Stewart, Peter Pletcher, Louise Serio, etc. are simply amazing, and produce round after flawless round with what some on COTH would criticize for position "flaws."

Suggestion for new standard: You can only criticize the positions of the riders who you consistently beat in the ring . . . http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

findeight

Dec. 20, 2004, 10:55 AM

I'm not sure it's a mistake.

As has been mentioned, all these photos are at the apex of the jump on a HARD jumping horse, the kind that really break in half. That's why these photos are, without fail, the winningest Hunters in the ring over the big sticks riden by the winningest riders.

They are hard to stay on.

Jane

Dec. 20, 2004, 10:57 AM

I think we need that headbanging against brick wall smilie. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

jumper11

Dec. 20, 2004, 11:03 AM

So UP just curious, is it an observation, critique or criticism you are attempting here, just curious? And I second the head banging smiley request, or maybe the hammer?

jumper11

Dec. 20, 2004, 11:41 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by UltimatePiaffe:
Perhaps my word choice was poor. I do not mean this to be CRITICISM. I am _OBSERVING_ the number of big time riders who duck.

You guys have done a great job of explaining why they do this. I understand and it makes sense to me now.

But PLEASE guys...do not get offended when people study the pictures of the big dogs and try to figure out what they are doing and why!!!

Just because you're a Mighty Kahoona does not mean you cannot make a mistake. It does not mean that you are exempt from critiquing. It does not mean that you will never ever for the rest of your life do anything incorrectly.

Remember - some of the greatest leaders in the world have destroyed their infallibility in a moment of weakness http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif So too can a professional rider make a mistake. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

huh ok, it seems that here you stated that you did not want to criticize the rider, but yet you just stated that you are doing all three. Which is funny since the rider never asked for any of your responses. So maybe you need to "chill" and reflect on someone's riding on your own, instead of publicly "critiquing, criticizing, and observing" them on a BB? Just a thought, if you don't like getting negative responses to your question, maybe you shouldn't post a negative critique on someone's riding? Doh... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Dec. 20, 2004, 11:49 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by UltimatePiaffe:

Who cares what you call it. The fact remains - I noticed something that a rider was doing and I wanted to know WHY. I do believe we have covered WHY the rider was doing what he was doing, so take a deep breath and feel free to join me back in Adult Land when you are ready.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think I gave a couple of good explanations of "why" you see what you call a "duck" in the Serio/Popeye K picture, yet you still call what he is doing a "mistake" and then try to justify what you acknowledge to be a criticism of his position.

Saying that you were just asking "why" and then criticizing one of the best pro riders as having made a "mistake" by encouraging Popeye K to jump like a total freak over big oxer . . . not advisable with this crowd!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Please reread my explanations, and then go watch those riders in action -- you'll totally get it. There are many lovely pro riders with different positions, styles, techniques, who get incredible performances from their horses.

none...

Dec. 20, 2004, 12:04 PM

I get what you are going for, UP. I too have wondered the very same thing. My room is filled with posters of famous riders (from all different disciplines)and as I look around, I cant find ONE that is displaying close to a nice position. I do understand what talent these people have to be able to ride such horses, but seriously, is hanging over their neck going to help them that much? Flailing your legs around with only your knee touching the saddle? Looking down? How can it be helpful to the horse if you look like you are going to fall off? I for one cant say I have ridden anything 'super-back-cracking' but I see plenty of pros riding 'flat' horses that display just as bad a position. But at the same time (Im an eventer, so Ill relate it to that) I have watched Phillip Dutton ride and he is *amazing* barley moves an inch--but that is watching hi whole round. But if you look at some still shots...wow. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

Magnolia

Dec. 20, 2004, 12:43 PM

The last time this was hashed out, somebody brought up judging the quality of a ride from a photo. I think that this photo is a nanosecond of time and meant to make the horse look good. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif If you watch a video, these people aren't flailing and falling all over, anymore than event riders are pounding their horses backs and getting left behind at every jump. Also, you see pic of the same trainers and riders with the hunter duck jumping in jumpers, and voila, no hunter duck to be seen.

Also, I think when you get good enough to win everything on anything (some of those riders listed above can literally place 1-6 in any given class on any given day in any class of competition on pretty much any horse), you can take a few liberties with your form over fences.

Sorry people have been mean and/or snide to you, but I think a lot of folks just get tired of people from other disciplines complaining that hunter folks can't ride as good as everyone else or what not.

FrittSkritt

Dec. 20, 2004, 12:48 PM

I'm not going to say anything about Tommy's position, but I do want to know where he got that quilted girth cover... I've been searching high and low for one like that!

(I'm not a fan of the fleece ones because they tend to pill... and the thin quilted ones look tidier.) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Magnolia

Dec. 20, 2004, 12:49 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> quilted girth cover

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Probably Dover Saddlery?

Dec. 20, 2004, 12:52 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by LH:

Saying that you were just asking "why" and then criticizing one of the best pro riders as having made a "mistake" by encouraging Popeye K to jump like a total freak over big oxer . . . not advisable with this crowd!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Please reread my explanations, and then go watch those riders in action -- you'll totally get it. There are many lovely pro riders with different positions, styles, techniques, who get incredible performances from their horses. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

UltimatePiaffe: Easy there!! PLEASE read the quote from previous post! In context, I think one could say that the hunter pros position in a picture taken for .10 of a second is no different from that of a pic of Robert Dover who looks to be 20 degrees behind the vertical, with his spurs at knee level, driving his horse into the ground, when he's really just sitting deep at the "down" beat of an extended trot, getting an extension that would make us gasp with its suspension. Fair to say?

Other

Dec. 20, 2004, 01:12 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by UltimatePiaffe:
Oh my fricking god people - chill the hell out!
Just chill out!

I get so sick of this forum sometimes. Everything I post turns into "You stupid fool! You aren't a 50 year old upper level rider like I am, so just sit in the back corner with your mouth shut."

It just gets old after awhile. It seems like it's just a bunch of old hens hanging out on the roost waiting to peck their neighbor's eyes out.

You ladies SERIOUSLY need to chill. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

so take a deep breath and feel free to join me back in Adult Land when you are ready.

Climb back up your roost pole and patiently await the next unsuspecting insect to happen along...this one is thoroughly digested... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
So nice to read a response written by a sane, calm person.

As for everybody else - I'm done arguing with childish personalities. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

UP, please read through the many jabs you managed to take at all of us in only 2 pages.

While I understand how you may have initially felt the need to act defensively, there is really no reason to continue on with these types of comments once the situation has been explained to you (this is a topic that is discussed on a bi-weekly basis, this is one of the top/most successful riders out there (and the trainer of one of our posters here), this is one of the top horses, there HAVE been plenty of these "innocent questions" that have turned into all out bashes, etc. etc.)

I personally have no desire to give you any sort of answers to your questions or treat them with care, as I feel rather offended by your above comments...there are plenty of other "newbies" who don't come in and start attacking a forum that they have just admitted to having spent little time on. I think those types tend to be greeted with a much warmer reception. You want everyone to give you the benefit of the doubt, but please remember that it's a two-way street.

Nikki^

Dec. 20, 2004, 01:29 PM

UP: You forgot to say the magic words:

"I just don't like that positon."

That is all you have to say. I hate it too and it takes away from the whole picture, but hey, if the younger crowd wants to do it, fine.
Yes, these riders are gorgeous, win a lot and ride the fanciest horses, but you don't need to copy their position.

Lord Helpus

Dec. 20, 2004, 01:47 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by UltimatePiaffe:
I don't understand why it's different now than it used to be - I'm sure horses jumped just as big back then. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, horses jumped just as big "back then" (and I am a fossil and actually was around, albeit a child, "back then"). They even jumped bigger "back then"; frequently open working hunters would jump 4'6" in the stake class.

But, they jumped much flatter. You can look through old pictures until your fingers ache and you will not find a single picture from the 1960's or earlier in which a horse is jumping as round as Popeye K is in the Dover picture.

Claudius -- if you are reading this, please post that incredible picture of your mom that you sent me 2 weeks ago. It is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

So, its not the size of the jump, but the style of jumping that has caused the change in the style of riding.

PS: I see that today is your one year anniversary on COTH. Happy Anniversary. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

EStieg12

Dec. 20, 2004, 01:50 PM

UP -
I am not sure of your riding background I am just going to make comments from my own personal background:
There is a reason why many top junior riders ride different horses for Eq and Hunters. If you watch a medals round and a Regular working hunter round or Green round at any "big" show you will see the difference between the horses.
I know from my own experience that there is NO way I will be able to keep good Eq position on my new horse. If I ride him in an eq class I doubt I will even place because he jumps SO hard and SO round. Vs. my junior hunter who jumped great but jumped VERY flat.
Try as trainers may, sometimes you just can't possibly hold perfect eq on those hard jumping horses and they are doing the best they can to just stay out of the horses way and getting the best jump they possibly can out of the horse - usually staying out of the horses way creates a terrible picture over the jump - BUT it work for them and that particular ride.
I have attached a picture of my old junior hunter and my trainer (the flat Jumper) and my trainer and a round jumper. As you will see – her leg position is the same in both and is very effective. Her upper body position has changed but she is riding the ride that works for that particular horse. The last picture of a junior on the same horse (Sori) doing an Eq round. Because Jo is concentrating on her position and not the horse, Sori is not jumping as well as he can. The trainer knows how to get the best jump out of the horse. (Please excuse my ammy photograhy skills!!!)
Thanks! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Levi (Flat Jumper) http://community.webshots.com/photo/101803410/101804044PQLyMk
Sori (Round Jumper but no where near a horse like Strapless/ In Disguise / Popeye K) http://community.webshots.com/photo/101804594/182506522PSVjUN
Jo on Sori in a Big Eq Class http://community.webshots.com/photo/101804594/182508083PdWQLE

Other

Dec. 20, 2004, 01:53 PM

Hey EStieg, the links go to the same pic for both!

the purple princess

Dec. 20, 2004, 01:56 PM

Its because the training is just not there. You get these people now a days that think all riding is is pointing a horse at a fence, throwing your arms up his neck and burying your face into their mane. Essentially, that is all the people on this board do...have you seen peoples jumping pics on this borad lately?

EStieg12

Dec. 20, 2004, 01:56 PM

I changed them! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif sorry!

And Purple Princess - I have to say that I disagee. Although my Eq is NO WHERE near perfect (we have had THIS discussion before!) I will post a picture of me after SIX years out of the saddle. But because I had great basics and a trainer that can teach good basics, my eq is pretty ok considering the time off. Just my opinion.
http://community.webshots.com/photo/101804594/101804652IVXmIc
This horse is a flat jumper!!! My new "baby" is so round - it has been / is a HUGE HUGE adjustment.

pleased-as-punch2800

Dec. 20, 2004, 02:02 PM

From personal experience:
I have never had a ducking problem, however when trying horses this fall to purchace, i rode a five year old Hanoverian out of Davignport. When the owner put up an oxer to 3'6" my leg swung back and i ducked very badly after watching the tape my mom took i could see what a powerful jump the horse took. His knees where sky high and was jumping at least a foot higher then what the jump was set for. Although i have shown nice hunters i have never experienced anything jump like that. So even good riders can have a though time riding a horse who jumps with that much power.

J. Turner

Dec. 20, 2004, 03:12 PM

For what it's worth, ADragoo has a bunch of wonderful photos on her photoreflect website. This link I'm giving should be a bunch of Havens Schatt and in more than just the apex of the jump. Maybe this will help see some other positions.

http://www.photoreflect.com/scripts/prsm.dll?EventFrame?event=05MP001T

This one on the landing side:
http://www.photoreflect.com/scripts/prsm.dll?eventorder?photo=05MP001T000036&start=0&album=0&adjust=-1

BLBGP

Dec. 20, 2004, 03:38 PM

Ask and ye shall receive, here's a video (http://www.capitalchallengehorseshow.com/Video/6.htm) of another pro hunter rider who has inspired many threads asking about ducking just from viewing one still picture. I don't think you can fault his style in motion.

This is on a horse he's never ridden before, from the WCHR pro finals.

Silver_Lining

Dec. 20, 2004, 04:21 PM

I dont mean to be a grouch but that rider looks very hunched over, rounded shoulders.. and on landing seems to lose balance....

Sebastian

Dec. 20, 2004, 04:51 PM

Well, as you all know, I AM an old grouch (so, don't worry Silver Lining, I'll take the heat) and I STILL hate this "style" of hunter riding. JMHO...as usual.

And, I agree that this argument has been done to death, but I SWEAR... If I read one more person's justification of this "style" as...

"You've obviously never ridden a horse that cracks it's back..."

I will PUKE. I have ridden those horses. And, my old hunter trainer (who is a very successful A-circuit guy on the west coast) has ridden horses that crack their backs far harder than anything I've seen here lately (one was mine) and NEVER lost his position the way these guys do. I have pictures on my walls to prove it, too. I have one shot of him riding my hunter in the Modifieds on a day when Sebastian (the horse) was feeling particularly exuberant and over jumping by about 2'. And, guess what! Scottie's leg was EXACTLY where it's supposed to be over the top of those fences.

All I ask is that we stop blaming bad riding on talented horses. Ugh. There I will retreat to beneath my rock again...

Seb http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

p.s. And, yes, those rider DO approve those pictures of themselves. They DO choose to put them out there.

CBoylen

Dec. 20, 2004, 05:38 PM

You know, it might be because I've now been up 36 hours and spent 14 of them in a car, but at this point I'm not tremendously thrilled to find people criticising my trainer on a public BB.
I think I'll leave most of it until my mood improves, and let Tommy's record speak for itself. When your picture is on the Dover cover I'm sure you won't mind if we offer unsolicited criticism.
However, I will point out that if you saw Tommy ride in person you would never use the term duck. Tommy's body barely moves over the fence; the horses jump up to him.

On the lighter notes:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I just know that's Tommy Serio who may be approaching 50 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's very nicely phrased, and a nice compliment for Tommy, as you've underbid the numbers http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif.
Anyone tells him I said that and I'll immediately edit http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I'm not going to say anything about Tommy's position, but I do want to know where he got that quilted girth cover... I've been searching high and low for one like that!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You're going to hate me, and I'm not positive since I don't have the photo in front of me, but I'm pretty sure the girth cover in that photo was one that one of the Caroli grooms sewed personally http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif.

van

Dec. 20, 2004, 05:58 PM

You may wish to note that this photo was not used as a cover for a book entitled "America's Idea of Perfect Equitation". It was used for a catalog that sells tack, grooming supplies, feed supplements, riding clothes, etc. They chose a photo of a horse and rider that are turned out beautifully, with classy tack and appointments... definitely good advertising for the products they sell!!

Vanessa Brown
www.derbyhillfarm.com (http://www.derbyhillfarm.com)

CuriosoJorge

Dec. 20, 2004, 06:07 PM

So UltimatePiaffe, the "calm, sane people" are the ones who agree with you. What a coincedence, and how hypocritical of you.

ABBA

Dec. 20, 2004, 07:08 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by UltimatePiaffe:
Wny is the rider ducking so much? It appears he is riding in the hunter division, not jumpers, so in theory the jumps are much smaller and easier. I've noticed in magazine photos lately that riders' positions are progressively getting worse.

Ten years ago, no one would even think of putting such a pic on the front cover of a magazine! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To the dressage riders and eventers who are criticizing the photo, if you knew who that horse was or who that rider was, you'd understand why Dover owuld GLADLY put them on their cover http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gifTo anyone criticizing Mr. Serio's riding - when anyone on this board knows 1/100th of what that man knows, then I will tip my hat to you http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Other

Dec. 20, 2004, 07:27 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Silver_Lining:
I dont mean to be a grouch but that rider looks very hunched over, rounded shoulders.. and on landing seems to lose balance.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When a rider is a professional hunter, why exactly is it that you all seem to think he needs to "look pretty"?? I mean, ok. Let's do away with the form and function debate at this level, as his form is CLEARLY doing nothing to hinder the function of his ride.

So again, why is it that Peter needs square shoulders and a stick straight back? He's not going to be judged in an eq ring ever again (unless it's a for-fun class). Maybe he's just showing us that he is relaxed and focused on getting his job done (in this case, getting the most fluid, effortless ride possible on a strange horse in a pelham) and making it look easy, rather than wasting time thinking about "how arched is my back"? Maybe pros develop such positions because they ARE that balanced and comfortable. I bet you'd get tired even quicker if you ran around showing horses in every division and tried to maintain that perfect Missy look every time out-or, you'd realize that it serves no purpose for your particular line of work.

BTW, I'd hardly say that he is losing his balance on the backside. He just looks soft and comfortable, ready to move on to the next leg of his trip.

J. Turner

Dec. 20, 2004, 07:35 PM

Is there anyone else who can't see the video? I really want to see it.

Kelpie

Dec. 20, 2004, 08:00 PM

Those of you that responded to the poster's question reasonably--thanks! Some of ya'll offered some excellent explanations and were brave enough to include pixs & video...very cool. There's a trainer in the area (trains youngsters) that looks like Ichabod Crane (if you do the Hunters here, you know who I'm talking about) that horses LOVE. When I first saw him at a schooling show, I thought, who is this yahoo, and then I saw him ride several youngsters around and I shut up fast. You can see the young horse go from being tense and confused with owners that have M. Ward style eq, to practically smiling, while doing a better job with good ol' Ichabod.

Soooo, I think the moral of the story is that, while I'm not always crazy about the look, and do appreciate a rousing discussion pertaining to trends in equitation, there are many professionals that can get away with position faults because they are still effective, and their rides result in happy horses, with high performing rounds.

By the way UP, I thought you were very defensive and childish yourself. You over reacted from the initial responses and those folks were nice enough to apologize to you and then when you received additional, well thought out answers, you still reacted peevishly. If anyone needs to "chill" and reflect upon their own behavior on this board, it's you.

jrjumpersrider

Dec. 20, 2004, 08:19 PM

can someone send me this picture cause i cant find it

lauriep

Dec. 20, 2004, 08:55 PM

I don't agree that the working hunters of 20+ years ago didn't jump just as round as those of today do. I think they were ridden at more of a gallop and were quicker off the ground, but the roundness was there, too.

And some riders back then had a ducking problem, which detracted from their "look" too. And no one can tell me that it is NECESSARY to be leaning off to one side to ride a round jumping horse. It is a form fault, pure and simple, whether 20 years ago, or today. It bothers some, and I am one, and it doesn't bother others. And so it goes. Certainly not worth the sniping here.

I don't think the OP was purposely picking Tommy out as the poster child for it, and realizes it is just a snippet of time. But it certainly is a fact that riding form is dramatically different "now" than it was "then." The greats can get away with it; the average rider can't, so I think the point is that it isn't a style to emulate.

Gravie

Dec. 20, 2004, 08:58 PM

Many professionals tend to develop sloppy habits after so many years; they're usually too focused on training the HORSE rather than dealing with their own eq.

I agree, UP, though. I would like to see a photoscan of this cover if possible, so I can better gain an understandin of what we're talking about. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Anyone have a pic of it handy?

BaliBandido

Dec. 20, 2004, 10:53 PM

Wow, why is it so wrong to say that someone (I don't care who they are) is at that moment not showing good form over a fence. We all pretty much agree it is not good form to be leaning over to one side, crotch out of the saddle by three inches, no lower leg, rounded shoulders and eyes straight down. When has this ever been what we are trying to teach or learn?

That being said, hey these are the big boys and hunters are judged on how the horses jump, so if the rider gets that kind of a jump out of one by pulling on his tail in the air I don't care. It is not a method I teach, however we all learn the basics and then develop a style. Most of these big riders have something in common that the average Joe does not, that is in incredible 'feel'. They ride by feel, by balance, by rhythem etc. Not by rote, they use their body as a 5th leg on a horse and it sure seems to work. Most of the reason we teach those that do not have that feel or the opportunity to spend years developing it the methods that we do, is because it is what works to keep them safe, and functional.

My pet peeve with this and any other type of 'fad' is that those who started it just ride that way, then others think they have to ride that way and they manufacture it. Not beacuse it works for them but because they are copying somebody elses unique style. That is where it gets silly. You have some people who have that innate feel and look like potatos up there at times, but are as with it as any that have a leg velcro'd on one, and then you have those thay try to mimic that.

When I went to the photoreflect page that was suggested here, I took a close look at all of the photos, if you look beyond the fab front end in some of the pics (not all of them though), start looking at the horses through the back, look at where the hind end is, look at straigtness, does it look like some of the jumps are not slow and relaxed but hard off the ground. Then look at the very last photo and see if that looks effective.

Before I get slammed let me say this, I have watched, and ridden with some trainers/riders that are in the same leage as TS, and I have huge respect for them. But everyone of them would look at a picture of them in the same postition and say that they needed to clean it up a bit. More so on the looking down than anything. And for what it is worth, I think it is very silly to say 'when you know 1/100 of what so and so knows then I'll listen to you' well I will bet there are people here who fit into that catagory, just because they are not as visable does not mean they are not as knowledgeable.

QueenMother

Dec. 21, 2004, 05:12 AM

UP == look at the way the horses went for the two "hunched back" riders. (It was not an equitation contest.) I'm sure you know that this was the first time either one of those riders rode that horse, ever.

Inverness

Dec. 21, 2004, 05:58 AM

Getting back to fundamentals - I have to start at this point since I'm a lowly adult beginner.

I like to look at this question in terms of the ultimate goal - effective riding that shows the horse at its best. I assume that all of us begin by learning the classic, what I'll call "the GM" position, in order to learn effectiveness. Most of us would be well advised to stay there.

As a rider progresses and learns to ride by feel, insight, and innate rhythm and balance (the basics by now have become ingrained and automatic) I imagine that "style" emerges. By "style" I don't mean flash and frills. Rather, I'm referring to those unique qualities in form and technique that the accomplished rider can intuitively employ to further enhance his or her already well-developed effectiveness.

Then, of course, there are the often indefinable factors of conformation and way of going to consider (both human and equine). I can't say I've ever seen two riders who ride exactly alike. Neither can I say I've ever seen two horses with exactly the same way of going.

Accordingly, it seems reasonable that a consummate professional will assess and evaluate the horse's natural physical attributes and movement and determine how to accentuate superior qualities and minimize any flaws. In order to do this, the professional must also take into account his/her own conformational assets and limitations and decide whether those immutable qualities can be used to advantage - or be managed in order not to disadvantage (i.e., detract from effectiveness).

I imagine that sometimes a combination simply doesn't work; an otherwise superior horse and supremely skilled rider may not be suited to one another because of their unique conformational structures. In watching such a pair, perhaps what we actually observe is not "bad riding," but simply a less than ideal fit between horse and rider. What may be viewed as an unorthodox "style" is, maybe, the rider's best attempt to compensate for or draw attention from the pair's shortcomings.

I'll concede that in any subjectively judged sport there is plenty of opportunity for good ole' showmanship. In fact, subjective judging encourages a certain amount of flash and fiction. At some level, the horse and rider combination must either sparkle or be forgotten. It therefore falls to the professional to make even the lacklustre shine.

At any rate, that is the beginner's diatribe on equestrian "style." And with that said, I'll now duck to the side and look for my next fence.

Magnolia

Dec. 21, 2004, 06:24 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> AAACK! Back hunched over, falling on the neck on landing, horse on the forehand, bumping rails on a small fence.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But the horse is pretty much foot perfect with both riders. It is not easy to get a horse to 8-10 perfect jumps, using the same pace on the whole course and making it look like you aren't doing work up there. A good hunter rider doesn't use the big half halts and "rough" aids that you can get away with in eventing. They have one distance they can get that horse to - not a couple of options.

It sure would be a pretty picture to see perfect equitation on one of these horses, but it may not happen because it DOESN'T matter what the rider looks like, it only matters what the horse looks like.

And, I don't think ducking and hunched shoulders are taught by any trainer of hunters andymore than an event coach recommends getting left behind at every jump or a dressage coach tells riders to seesaw the reins. I may be wrong, but I bet Tommy Serio is not telling his students to work on a better duck.....

Magnolia

Dec. 21, 2004, 06:31 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> At any rate, that is the beginner's diatribe on equestrian "style." And with that said, I'll now duck to the side and look for my next fence.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif
I must say, as long as my heels are down, and I'm giving a decent release, I don't much care about my form over the jump..... It's getting the right distance without picking all the way to the base and then leaning that is hard and I am a semi-eventer and can even get away with tight or long distances.

treasmare

Dec. 21, 2004, 07:34 AM

Can someone please scan and post that catelouge cover so I can see what everyone is talking about? Besides I need a new photo of Popeye http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I would be truely gratful to the soul that can do this so I feel included http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Inverness

Dec. 21, 2004, 07:42 AM

I would, but I don't have it with me and I still need to re-up my premium membership.

ABBA

Dec. 21, 2004, 07:48 AM

Nope, I sure don't know 1/100th of what Mr. Serio knows and I am not afraid to admit it. What's your point?

If your username is "Ultimate Piaffe" - me thinks you shouldn't be criticizing hunters. If my name was "Ultimate Show Hunter" and I posted a picture on the Dressage forum of Robert Dover (or another big time dressage rider) - riding off his toe w/ 3" spurs dug up in his horse's gut over on the Dressage Forum and wrote, "My God - look at this rider's AWFUL leg position". How would that make you feel? A well-rounded horseman would know to respect the upper echelon of any discipline - be it dressage, hunters, reining, hackneys, Arabians - whatever. Something to think about.

lms

Dec. 21, 2004, 08:27 AM

UP-
I'm not really understanding why you are so offended by ABBA's assumption of the meaning of your ScreenName. After all you assumed that no one would be offended by your comments regarding Tommy Serio's position on one of the hottest hunters around right now. For the life of my I can't understand why people feel they can critique a fraction of a second of someone's course, cause after all that's what a jumping photo is.

ABBA

Dec. 21, 2004, 08:32 AM

"So perhaps you should keep your mouth zipped also since I don't see your photo there. "

How do you know you haven't seen my picture in Dover? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

RugBug

Dec. 21, 2004, 09:42 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by UltimatePiaffe:
So perhaps you should keep your mouth zipped also since I don't see your photo there.

We're judging riding skills upon user names now? Wow... GROW UP! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, SOMEONE certainly needs to grow up....

DMK

Dec. 21, 2004, 10:00 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by UltimatePiaffe:
AAACK! Back hunched over, falling on the neck on landing, horse on the forehand, bumping rails on a small fence. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm, if that is your reaction to watching the two riders, especially Peter's trip (2nd ride), I think you have completelely and totally tipped your hand in the knowledge department when it comes to hunters.

But please, direct me to a video link that shows a rider in a style you prefer. I'm game...

EStieg12

Dec. 21, 2004, 10:06 AM

No kdding! Except for maybe 1 jump of Peter's (The second one he did lean a little) he had an amazing ride. To me, he may have had a little of the "trainer hunch" going on but he hardly moved when that horse jumped! He let the horse close his angle and stayed centered and balanced. Both riders had great trips, especially for never riding those horses before. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Edited to say: Since when have 4 foot jumps been little? Even though they are smaller then Grand Prix jumps, the horse must be in absolute perfect form over EVERY jump. Grand Prix horses can get there in any way/shape/or form. IMHO - having a perfect 4' round is almost as comperable as jumping a grand prix.

J. Turner

Dec. 21, 2004, 10:06 AM

Why am I the only one who can't see this video? What plug in do you need?

boobada

Dec. 21, 2004, 10:16 AM

I can't see it either....but I can hear it??? I think I'm Ee-lectric Box challenged. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

EStieg12

Dec. 21, 2004, 10:17 AM

The format APPEARS to be Windows Media Player. (Just the style of the box and everything). You could try downloading the latest version and see what happens! Good Luck! They are fun rounds to watch!

jumper11

Dec. 21, 2004, 10:23 AM

Ok UP I see your point now.... Everyone should keep their mouths shut if it means that they would be questioning something you posted? Is that right? I think it's close.... That's really interesting, you've managed to insult anyone who doesn't agree with you and also suggest we keep our opinions to ourselves, yet you are able to bash a well known respected professional? I find that incredibly amusing..... that is all. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

J. Turner

Dec. 21, 2004, 10:29 AM

But I HAVE Windows Media Player! And I can only hear it! Grrrrr

PiedPiper

Dec. 21, 2004, 10:29 AM

UP-
I would just let it go. You were sunk by the word go. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif It now will be a "you" against "them" argument no matter how legit or "uninsulting" your initial question was. My best advice to you is to find a similar riding style with an eventer and go post over there. I am sure people would be more willing to discuss the theories and styles of jumping without trying to draw and quarter you. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Come on everyone, let's lighten up a little. I don't think UP meant any disrespect, probably didn't even know who the rider was. Just saw a picture and wanted to discuss it. No underlying motives or insults. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

UP-If it is any consolation, I think your queries are legit and justified. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

DMK

Dec. 21, 2004, 10:31 AM

Esteig - I think they are 3'6, although I don't consider that small either. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And yes, that gallop to the 2nd to last fence was sheer brilliance, wasn't it? And I love a knowledgable crowd that saw 4 strides out from the last fence that he was dead on and nailed it.

Sandy's ride, while technically accurate (and I seem to recall she was on a difficult horse), was a tad too "worked" to be the clear winner. She had to manufacture those lines all the way (but she worked for her 91, that's for sure!) Peter, on the other hand, had it made in the shade out of each corner. Lovely stuff to watch.

EStieg12

Dec. 21, 2004, 10:35 AM

Oh - JUST 3'6''! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But sorry, I thought they were 4'. Hard to tell on that video.
I agree about Sandy's ride. That chip on the first or second fence cost her also. Peter just looked so fluid! Since I show in the NW I have never been able to actually watch or see a video of some of these REALLY BNT's.
Those two horses were really cute - different from what I expected but very nice!

vxf111

Dec. 21, 2004, 10:58 AM

God, Peter is SOFT. And I love that horse.

Does anyone think some of this has to do with body size/ height. When I watch that video, I get the sense that he's using his body very purposefully (something you can't tell from still shots). Whatever the position is about, watching that video of Peter I feel like the position is purposeful.

I know of quite a good trainer (the picture of gorgeous eq on his own large horses) who is QUITE tall and looks very different on smaller, client's horses. He still rode them well but definately had to *think* about where to put himself in the air. Peter also looks like he's long in the torso and no small guy. Just thinking aloud that height to horse ratio may have something to do with it.

DMK

Dec. 21, 2004, 11:14 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by vxf111:
Does anyone think some of this has to do with body size/ height. When I watch that video, I get the sense that he's using his body very purposefully (something you can't tell from still shots). Whatever the position is about, watching that video of Peter I feel like the position is purposeful. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, he's not short and like most guys, he probably has a taller/heavier upper body than most women. Makes it a bit tougher to control one's upper body, I am sure!

I'll never quite figure out the ducking thing on top riders. But I suspect that I will always be envious of the fact that they can duck and still be perfectly balanced up to and over the top, not to mention that they can be so f'in quiet with their upper body to the base. I can duck with the best of them, but the balance and quiet thing? No such luck. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

UP - yes, there were people getting more than a little pointlessly indignant here. You know, taking the low road and all that. But it seemed to me you got right down there with them, so there is that to consider. In any event, it does make an impression.

Gravie

Dec. 21, 2004, 11:17 AM

I'd still like a scan if anyone could find and upload it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

CuriosoJorge

Dec. 21, 2004, 11:19 AM

UP, you are confused. You keep referring to the Dover catalog as a publication and a magazine, and it isn't.

It's a catalog of products for sale. Why on earth would you want to critique a picture chosen to grace a catalog cover? I am confused about why this matters so much to you.

DMK

Dec. 21, 2004, 11:35 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Gravie:
I'd still like a scan if anyone could find and upload it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

not likely to happen as it is a copyrighted photo clearly not owned by any of us! Maybe Dover's site shows it. It certainly is a great shot.

Sebastian

Dec. 21, 2004, 11:51 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by CuriosoJorge:
UP, you are confused. You keep referring to the Dover catalog as a publication and a magazine, and it isn't.

It's a catalog of products for sale. Why on earth would you want to critique a picture chosen to grace a catalog cover? I am confused about why this matters so much to you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

'Scuse me while I dust the dirt off as I crawl back out from under my rock...

Old and grumpy here again! The reason that it bothers those of us who do not approve of the this "style" is that the Dover catalogue IS INDEED a publication (even if it's sole purpose is to sell product) with a VERY broad base of distribution. MANY, MANY, MANY riders view this and will regard it as the pinnacle of the sport merely because it IS on the cover of a publication.

And, for those of us who are "old school" and disapprove of the "style" -- it offends. And, it case you are wondering -- it offends me because it encourages people to ride in a dangerous fashion (pun intended http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ). I would be a much happier camper if they would publish pictures of their own good form as well as the horse's.

Now, where is that rock of mine...
Seb http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BLBGP

Dec. 21, 2004, 12:15 PM

UP - I think you ran into the problem of asking a legitimate question in a somewhat snippy way that was taken wrongly by a lot of people because, seriously, we get that topic on here many many times and it has been discussed rationally many many times and now it's just getting old. Sort of like if HunterPrincess11214 came on the eventing board and asked why eventers flip their horses. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

DMK

Dec. 21, 2004, 12:16 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sebastian:
And, it case you are wondering -- it offends me because it encourages people to ride in a dangerous fashion (pun intended http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course this just begs the question... "If you some someone jump off a cliff, would you do it too?" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I mean I can work with the "I don't like it, it's not correct" perspective. I can't actually work up to care about it mind you, and have been known to wholeheartedly approve of it if the BNT is on my horse and winning (shallow, principleless thing that I am).

But really, if this is the most dangerous thing we can show our beginning riders (of all ages), well, please pardon me if I giggle. I'll also try very hard not to talk about my childhood antics on horseback, as they were most certainly of a "dangerous fashion". Lord only knows how I would have survived if I had a Dover catalogue to emulate! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Janet

Dec. 21, 2004, 12:16 PM

The Dover catalog is definitely a "publication", but it is NOT a "magazine".

Magnolia

Dec. 21, 2004, 12:36 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> And, for those of us who are "old school" and disapprove of the "style" -- it offends. And, it case you are wondering -- it offends me because it encourages people to ride in a dangerous fashion (pun intended ). I would be a much happier camper if they would publish pictures of their own good form as well as the horse's.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, if the picture is that distressing and disturbing, don't buy from Dover's unless they put a non-ducker on the cover. Write them and tell them how offensive it was.

I do think it is odd that the horse was wearing a visible item not actually sold by Dover Saddlery.

Janet

Dec. 21, 2004, 12:38 PM

At the most basic, a "magazine" contains articles and/or editorial items.

It is relevant to this thread because the TITLE of the thread incorrectly identifies the Dover catalog as a "magazine".

It is completely irelevant to the question of whether or not the rider is ducking, and whether or not it is being held up as "an example to emulate".

Sebastian

Dec. 21, 2004, 12:44 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by DMK:
Of course this just _begs_ the question... "If you some someone jump off a cliff, would you do it too?" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I mean I can work with the "I don't like it, it's not correct" perspective. I can't actually work up to _care_ about it mind you, and have been known to wholeheartedly approve of it if the BNT is on my horse and winning (shallow, principleless thing that I am).

But really, if this is the most dangerous thing we can show our beginning riders (of all ages), well, please pardon me if I giggle. I'll also try very hard not to talk about my childhood antics on horseback, as they were most certainly of a "dangerous fashion". Lord only knows how I would have survived if I had a Dover catalogue to emulate! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Man, this rock is getting heavy...

No doubt, it is a miracle that I survived my childhood, as well http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif...BUT, now that I am old and grumpy -- and have seen enough broken arms & collar bones (and worse) -- to know better, I will continue the crusade. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

And, http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif, the Lemmings will ALWAYS be ready to jump off the cliff -- your own tag line/quote is a grim reminder of that...(I love it, BTW...) http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif as well as the "defend the BNTs to the death" posts I see here on the BB.

I also, completely understand your desire to win and cannot blame you for that. My disapproval lies with the judges, pros, et. al. who shape this discipline.

Seb http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Janet

Dec. 21, 2004, 12:45 PM

Yes, and that is why I have held off for FIVE PAGES of it bugging me every time I saw the title.

Magnolia

Dec. 21, 2004, 12:53 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> The point is the photo itself and the logic behind it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, show hunter photos are about the horse. That horse looks like an A++++++++++++++ hunter. Heck, I posted about an unfortunate man who was ducking so much he looked decapitated - but the horse looked stellar. (BTW, I got jumped all over too).

It is OK that you don't like ducking and thing it is incorrect and asked why people did it. Nobody should belittle you for that. But people riding hunters duck. It happens. Most hunter people don't care if their rider is ducking, so long as their horse is jumping perfectly. They are buying products from Dover in hopes that their horse will jump like the venerable Popeye K, not buying a jacket hoping they too can duck like Tommy Serio.

Lucassb

Dec. 21, 2004, 01:03 PM

Forgive me, I didn't have the heart to read all FIVE pages of this "discussion," but I will just point out that, as a picture on a CATALOG COVER, the photo is designed to CATCH YOUR ATTENTION.

That's all.

It isn't meant to sell anything specific, educate anyone or model anything. The more dramatic the photo, generally speaking, the better job it does. All it is supposed to do is make you pick up the book and look at what's inside.

Seems to have achieved that goal, too. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Apologies if someone has already pointed out this rather basic fact.

Gravie

Dec. 21, 2004, 01:33 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by DMK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Gravie:
I'd still like a scan if anyone could find and upload it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

not likely to happen as it is a copyrighted photo clearly not owned by any of us! Maybe Dover's site shows it. It certainly is a great shot. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't see why the copyright laws would prohibit it. If it's a personal scan to show us, I mean. I do'nt know. I'll check on the site, though I'm not sure I'd know what everyone's talking about anyway. But I can guess. :P

Gravie

Dec. 21, 2004, 01:35 PM

Is THIS (http://oh-darling.net/misc/dovercap.jpg) the photo in question?

Applesauce

Dec. 21, 2004, 01:51 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Gravie:
Is http://oh-darling.net/misc/dovercap.jpg the photo in question? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, that's not Popeye K.

Silk

Dec. 21, 2004, 01:52 PM

Nope...that's not Tommy Serio or PopeyeK.

BTW, Mr. Serio can ride my horse upside down if he wants...as long as he can get it to jump like that!

treasmare

Dec. 21, 2004, 02:55 PM

I don't know that a scan to "this" limited group would be contrary to any laws. Firstly its not a private picture but rather is on a cover to be circulated to anyone.....and it is designed to get and draw attention to Dover. I reckon it has been a huge success given this discussion plus scanning so others can see would simply be free unanticiapted advertisement would it not? Any way , holy moly guys....please someone end my pain and scan a pic to I can see what is causing all the ruckus. I can hardly stand it http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Rosie

Dec. 21, 2004, 04:22 PM

I've been lucky enough to see Peter Pletcher ride numerous times......the first time I watched him I thought "holy schmoley http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif - here's one of the best riders in the country and his legs are all over the place, he's ducking, leaning, landing on his hands....etc." THEN I started really CAREFULLY watching. Round after round. Diffferent horses. Different classes. As others have said, his eq. can be less than perfect and danged if I know how he does it, but his ROUNDS are beautiful. You never see him adjust or change pace but you see he's got it nailed coming out of the corner.
The horses look like they love the ride - and isn't that the TRUE measure of a great rider?
Oh, and I've seen him ride jumpers also - he tends to land in his stirrups a bit more in the jumper ring http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Now, I'm not holding him up as an example of correct equitation, nor did I go home and try to emulate his "style" - but is he a great RIDER? Yep, I believe he is.

lauriep

Dec. 21, 2004, 05:43 PM

Here you go. Not a bad duck, and he is certainly right in the middle of his horse.

radio talk Aefvue Farms RCA

Dec. 21, 2004, 05:51 PM

Ya think these horses would jump this well, if this trainer were that bad of a rider? Sorry, just had to throw that out there. If you stand and watch at shows long enough, you will see more than one ride which doesn't emulate perfect equitation. The horses still jump well, using all their parts and enjoy doing it.

treasmare

Dec. 21, 2004, 05:59 PM

Lauriep thank you so much for putting me out of my misery. All I can say is Popeye is gorous and if he can look like that over eight fences I don't think I care much what the rider is doing. Given the record this pair is building whatever it is Tommy and Popeye seem to be getting the job done and in good company.

DMK

Dec. 21, 2004, 06:08 PM

gravie, I only say that because yours truly once scanned and posted the cover of COTH - the awesome pic of Rox Dene, and whoops, COTH only owned that photo for limited rights and no sooner than you could say "boo" it was gone. But perhaps catalogues are different. In any event it is a lovely picture!

Sebastian - OK, you can be grumpy. But I still think people can be smarter than to try and emulate that if they are going to go ass over tea kettle, and if not... well, Darwin knew what he was about... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

FrittSkritt

Dec. 21, 2004, 06:18 PM

So OT, but I still really want that girth cover. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

dauntless

Dec. 21, 2004, 07:21 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by UltimatePiaffe:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Janet:
At the most basic, a "magazine" contains articles and/or editorial items.

It is relevant to this thread because the TITLE of the thread incorrectly identifies the Dover catalog as a "magazine".

It is completely irelevant to the question of whether or not the rider is ducking, and whether or not it is being held up as "an example to emulate". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't you have something better to do than to make sure magazines and publications are correctly categorized and identified on a public BB? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

She explained b/c you ASKED her to. Goodness, UP, you certainlly seem to be trolling. Hypocritically trolling, if there is such a thing!

Beezer

Dec. 21, 2004, 07:25 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Magnolia:
They are buying products from Dover in hopes that their horse will jump like the venerable Popeye K, not buying a jacket hoping they too can duck like Tommy Serio. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dammit!! So THIS is what I've been doing wrong! I haven't been ordering from Dover! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Duffy

Dec. 21, 2004, 07:31 PM

Well, Beezer. I have routinely ordered from Dover and I can't seem to ride like Tommy. So, there ya go. Shit. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

NumberTenOx

Dec. 21, 2004, 07:46 PM

You guys have to check out Hillbilly Farms Jumping Clinic (http://members.surfbest.net/hillbilly@surfbest.net/critique.html). "Winning the battle against perfection".

Coreene

Dec. 21, 2004, 09:34 PM

Yo UP, yours, we should all ride as well as Tommy Serio.

sfrider

Dec. 21, 2004, 09:39 PM

Oh thank you numbertenox, you made my day. Will forward that link to everyone.

slainte!

Dec. 22, 2004, 05:17 AM

UP - grow up.

Also, I invite you to Wellington. Tommy Serio will be here shortly after Christmas I believe. You're more than welcome to come watch him ride one of the horses I work with in the Pre Greens.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And in that picture I don't think he's ducking. Looking down perhaps.... but when you're a trainer of that caliber he can do whatever he pleases!!! He can ride my pre green and steer with his ears if he can get him to jump like Popeye!

Bumpkin

Dec. 22, 2004, 09:00 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by NumberTenOx:
You guys have to check out http://members.surfbest.net/hillbilly@surfbest.net/critique.html. "Winning the battle against perfection". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

#10 I completely forgot about that website. Mr Jags is always showing it to me when I take Ruby in for some minor repair.

findeight

Dec. 22, 2004, 09:02 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Magnolia:
They are buying products from Dover in hopes that their horse will jump like the venerable Popeye K, not buying a jacket hoping they too can duck like Tommy Serio. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

THANK YOU Magnolia, let me get a towel to wipe the coffee off my screen http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Too bad for Dover that I can duck just fine without their jackets and NOTHING will make my mare jump like that http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Coreene

Dec. 22, 2004, 09:15 AM

Methinks it's better for some to spend less time on a high horse and more time on a real one. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I am sure that the nice people at Dover had lots of photos to choose from, and they liked this one best. And since it's Dover's catalog, I am sure that, for Dover, things like "eye catching" and "great photo" were more important than, say, social responsibility.

Hunterman1

Dec. 22, 2004, 10:05 AM

:rolleyes YOU PEOPLE CRACK ME UP. I mean honestly , why OH why are you so critical of every little topic. I am a VERY dear friend of Mr. Serio and why are " ADULTS " behaving like this. Get Over It. the BB has been closed before . REMEMBER. do you want " Erin" to pull the plug again. thought NOT so drop it. and if you have nothing nice to say. keep it to yourself or for a private conversation. BTW.. we all would be HONORED to have such a person ride & show our horse.
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

treasmare

Dec. 22, 2004, 10:37 AM

Perhaps everyone ought to agree to disagree? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Silk

Dec. 22, 2004, 10:38 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
Here you go. Not a bad duck, and he is certainly right in the middle of his horse. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you honestly think you could post that and NOT expect me to drool pitifully all over my keyboard. Not quite sure which of them I am drooling over the most!

Quinn

Dec. 22, 2004, 10:50 AM

Duffy said shit. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

RugBug

Dec. 22, 2004, 11:05 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ultimate Piaffe:
_The conversation was SUPPOSED to be about: "Why is ducking becoming a prevelant part of riding hunter jumpers?"_
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

See...now there's a better question. No specific person's riding is called into scrutiny, yet the behaviour is being discussed. The topic may have been friendlier if that were the original approach (except for the whole 'rehashed every three weeks' aspect).

Heidi

Dec. 22, 2004, 11:18 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Duffy said shit. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But, Quinn, the question remains: was she ducking when she wrote that?

Quinn

Dec. 22, 2004, 11:33 AM

Heidi:::::::::: http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

Quinn

Dec. 22, 2004, 11:49 AM

Anyone want to exchange corn recipes???

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

Quinn

Dec. 22, 2004, 11:56 AM

You must have missed that one. Too bad because we did exchange some good ones. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif Became a pleasant diversion on a rather nasty thread in Horse Care. You had to be there. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

DMK

Dec. 22, 2004, 11:58 AM

Yea, UP. Corn recipes are not unlike baby quiches, peeps, chocolate, beer drinking and horse flipping. Sooner or later you will figure it out.

Janet

Dec. 22, 2004, 12:06 PM

And baby eating.

Quinn

Dec. 22, 2004, 12:12 PM

Perhaps an even better question is why is this guy hiding behind a tire (wait, it's British so it's tyre)and maybe Dover should look at this for the next cover.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7121659537&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOAB:US:6
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Heidi

Dec. 22, 2004, 12:22 PM

Yabbut, then we'd have people decrying the way he holds the tyre, musing why it's become acceptable to hold the tyre in the right hand, standing sideways, when tradition would dictate that he stand head on with the tyre aloft in his left hand wearing a goofy grin.

And beyond all else, Quinn, that calendar is just...so wrong. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

hiddenlake

Dec. 22, 2004, 12:22 PM

Nah, Quinn, they can't use that one. He's looking down. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif And clearly not using the proper headgear. And waaaaay ahead of his horse.

Nice tool, though. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Duffy, is there something you want to tell everyone? Is that you with the winning bid?

Quinn

Dec. 22, 2004, 12:28 PM

I know it is Heidi and that's why I bought it. I have sent it to an unsuspecting COTH friend. DMK, you'll know of whom I speak and will find it quite appropriate I think.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

Janet

Dec. 22, 2004, 12:38 PM

No no. What is WRONG about the calendar is that he is seting a VERY BAD example by not wearing HARD SHOES when near a horse.

hiddenlake

Dec. 22, 2004, 12:47 PM

Janet, you are so right---my mistake. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

(Sorry Duffy, I thought you bought it, not Quinn)

Quinn

Dec. 22, 2004, 12:49 PM

Honest mistake Cagney. Duffy was the name of my first horse.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

Other

Dec. 22, 2004, 01:28 PM

Corn?!? CORN?!?! Seriously guys, stop ducking around already. Listen to the wise, adult words of UP: get back on track already!!!!!!

Clearly autumn has come and gone. So what in the sam's hell does corn have to do with anything? (Other than the fact that I heard Tommy Serio is wild about niblets...)

Back to the topic at hand: who's got good recipes for duck? I think I may be able to find my killer duck a l'orange, anyone have anything a little more exciting?

Pirateer

Dec. 22, 2004, 01:47 PM

Or how about Christmas Peeps?

Nothing I like better than a marshmallow that looks like a snowman.

DMK

Dec. 22, 2004, 03:14 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Quinn:
I know it is Heidi and that's why I bought it. I have sent it to an unsuspecting COTH friend. DMK, you'll know of whom I speak and will find it quite appropriate I think.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

EEEIIIIIIIYYYYYYY!!! I LOVE IT!!!!

(poor UP, I don't think she knows that there is a method to our madness - and Janet, I mercifully forgot about the baby eating ;eek: )

EStieg12

Dec. 22, 2004, 03:17 PM

You are all nutso! But do love those holiday peeps. mmm. sugar.

Beezer

Dec. 22, 2004, 04:25 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Other:
(Other than the fact that I heard Tommy Serio is wild about niblets...)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh. My. God. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I just hope not creamed. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Duffy

Dec. 22, 2004, 04:59 PM

Quinn, I was wondering how long it would take for someone to note that Duffy said "shit". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Duffy was the name of my first dog AND the first gorgeous horse I ever rode. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And yes, Heidi, I was ducking, or at the very least cringing slightly while typing, but not nearly as well as Tommy or Peter, obviously. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Duffy

Dec. 22, 2004, 05:02 PM

Oh, and I love corn - pretty much any variation/style. My favorite is sweet corn on the cob. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I've only had wild duck once and methinks it wasn't a duck - stank up the whole house. It had to be something with wings that ate fish.

Then, there was the duck my ex shot and left in the little fridge in the garage, supposedly awaiting going to be stuffed and mounted. Yup, you guessed. He forgot about it. The duck went to the dump with the fridge. eeeewwwwww

NCJumperGuy

Dec. 22, 2004, 05:41 PM

I like my corn with a lot of salt.

And easter peeps are always better

radio talk Aefvue Farms RCA

Dec. 22, 2004, 06:04 PM

And was the ex in the fridge too?? Just had to ask Duffy ole girl http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif You know, kinda like one of them thar CSI thingies.. Pssst, have you tried the snowman peeps???? Ummmm, yummy!

GirlNextDoor

Dec. 22, 2004, 06:18 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by UltimatePiaffe:
Yeah, sure...no need to turn a horse related thread into sarcasm laden digs aimed below the belt. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

We are all here to talk horses and have fun. So just lighten up and either get back on topic (in case you've forgotten - WHY IS DUCKING BECOMIMG SO PREVALENT IN THE MODERN DAY HUNTER JUMPER WORLD) or get off the thread.

I believe I will do the latter since I'm conversing with myself now. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

wow you must be new (although you have been here for a year...)...every thread turns into this after awhile...usually the ones with weak or silly topics such as this one http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Luv2sho

Dec. 22, 2004, 06:30 PM

You are asking a question that no body can answer. A reply is just speculation. Do you actually know for a fact that duckling is becoming prevelant or is that just your opinion?

Coreene

Dec. 23, 2004, 08:33 AM

Toys R Us sells Peep Kits! So you can whup out your own Peeps whenever the urge strikes! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Duffy

Dec. 23, 2004, 08:39 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by radio talk:
And was the ex in the fridge too?? Just had to ask Duffy ole girl http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif You know, kinda like one of them thar CSI thingies.. Pssst, have you tried the snowman peeps???? Ummmm, yummy! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Boy, would that have simplified my life! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

findeight

Dec. 23, 2004, 08:42 AM

Tupperware anyone??

Other

Dec. 23, 2004, 12:57 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Coreene:
Toys R Us sells Peep Kits! So you can whup out your own Peeps whenever the urge strikes! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

PEEP KITS?!?! PEEP KITS?! Man oh man. It's official. I'm off to Toys R Us to make my very own peeps. Flavor? Headless Duck a la Serio, of course. Wait, can I flavor them? Or just shape? Hmm, well, either way, I'll post pics.

Jaysee

Dec. 23, 2004, 02:01 PM

First of all, it appears that too many eggnog flavored Peeps have been consumed... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Secondly, UP, LH had your answer on p.1, WTFruitbat?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by LH:

In fact, it's type of control and balance by these pros that allow them to do the "lead selection" duck (to one side or another to influence the landing lead).

QUOTE]

Someone please pass the eggnog peeps to UP, PRONTO!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Merry

Dec. 23, 2004, 04:02 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Other:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Coreene:
Toys R Us sells Peep Kits! So you can whup out your own Peeps whenever the urge strikes! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

PEEP KITS?!?! PEEP KITS?! Man oh man. It's official. I'm off to Toys R Us to make my very own peeps. Flavor? Headless Duck a la Serio, of course. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Honest to God, Toys 'R Us sells PEEPS KITS? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I absolutely must have one! For Christmas! This can be like last year's quest for the "gnome on the pony" figurine! And guess what? Beezer came close. She got me a pair of gnomes riding atop a pony-driven cart figurine. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Portia

Dec. 23, 2004, 04:26 PM

Here you go, Merry: http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Walmart.com Peeps Maker (http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=2226075&sourceid=0100000030660804602498&dest=9999999997)

I wouldn't want you to get lost searching for it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Other

Dec. 23, 2004, 05:29 PM

See? This is the kind of nice COTH consistency that draws me back day after day.

-Yet another "good old GM days" vs. "why does my 6 year old ride better than all the hunter riders today?" (even though their horses are jumping out of their skins)
-Heat sparked by a poster from another board who is quick to jump on our fun h/j antics
-5+ pages of the same thing over and over
-the inevitable descent into recipe exchange
-and, of course, Coreene coming through with an incredible idea, and Portia coming through with the good sense, facts, and references to back it up.

Now, if someone could just photo shop a gnomes head onto Tommy Serio's body, we'd have it all.

Beezer

Dec. 23, 2004, 05:34 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Portia:
Here you go, Merry: http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=2226075&sourceid=0100000030660804602498&dest=9999999997

I wouldn't want you to get lost searching for it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, first off, ROTFLMAO over the getting lost comment!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

But, second, there has to be SOMEPLACE OTHER THAN WAL-MART to get a kit. Because Beezer typically does not "do" Wal-Mart. Especially the Wal-Mart near her home, which someone (NOT Beezer!) tried to set on fire yesterday. Twice.

So, it may be a mad dash to Toys R Us. Or Target. But, please, not even for Merry will I go to Wal-Mart on Christmas Eve. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif