Fair market value for a FresianX gelding

[TBsRgr8]

My sister-in-law asked me the other night and since I've been out of touch with prices lately I figured I'd ask here. What I had in mind was higher than what she was told by a couple people in her area, but sport horses are not the area of expertise of persons asked either. SIL is thinking of marketing in March (located in CA).

The horse will be 2 in May. Should mature btwn. 16h and 16.2h. Blk. White star. Flashy mover. Built for dressage. Good feet. Learns very quickly (even taught himself how to turn on the irrigation system in the paddocks and torment the other horses http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif) and would do well with some constructive distractions provided in a regular training program. He leads, loads, hauls well (my brothers hauled him from MD to CA- so they got to know his habits in that reguard real well), clips, bathes, stands for farrier, good for vet and worming, lunges, has been blanketed, has had a saddle on his back (including having girth tightened; no rider yet), has had a bridle put on. My SIL will probably introduce him to long lines/ ground driving in the next month or two.

My SIL thought it better to price him lower because his parents haven't "done anything". With everything that this youngster has done himself, I feel that the training that he has already been exposed to is definitely worth something to add to his value. He has already been exposed to more than many youngsters a year older than he is have (I likened it to skipping a grade, or two, in school).

He seems to be more of a man's horse in terms of responding to men better than most women, but my SIL has been able to get past that with training- both her own and that of the horse. The primary reason for selling is that my SIL, who does most of the daily handling of the horses and this was supposed to be her dressage prospect, does not feel that she has been able to bond with him like she has with her other gelding. She doesn't feel like it's fair to the horse or herself to continue to push the issue (they've had him since weaning) if they are not going to be able to form the kind of bond that it takes to make a good horse/ rider team.

I don't have any current pics. I'll have to look and see what I kept from last year or see if I can get some newer ones from SIL.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
"I'll take helmet-hair over head trauma any day." --someone who's experienced both

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HorsesAfterHeadTrauma/

[TBsRgr8]

My sister-in-law asked me the other night and since I've been out of touch with prices lately I figured I'd ask here. What I had in mind was higher than what she was told by a couple people in her area, but sport horses are not the area of expertise of persons asked either. SIL is thinking of marketing in March (located in CA).

The horse will be 2 in May. Should mature btwn. 16h and 16.2h. Blk. White star. Flashy mover. Built for dressage. Good feet. Learns very quickly (even taught himself how to turn on the irrigation system in the paddocks and torment the other horses http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif) and would do well with some constructive distractions provided in a regular training program. He leads, loads, hauls well (my brothers hauled him from MD to CA- so they got to know his habits in that reguard real well), clips, bathes, stands for farrier, good for vet and worming, lunges, has been blanketed, has had a saddle on his back (including having girth tightened; no rider yet), has had a bridle put on. My SIL will probably introduce him to long lines/ ground driving in the next month or two.

My SIL thought it better to price him lower because his parents haven't "done anything". With everything that this youngster has done himself, I feel that the training that he has already been exposed to is definitely worth something to add to his value. He has already been exposed to more than many youngsters a year older than he is have (I likened it to skipping a grade, or two, in school).

He seems to be more of a man's horse in terms of responding to men better than most women, but my SIL has been able to get past that with training- both her own and that of the horse. The primary reason for selling is that my SIL, who does most of the daily handling of the horses and this was supposed to be her dressage prospect, does not feel that she has been able to bond with him like she has with her other gelding. She doesn't feel like it's fair to the horse or herself to continue to push the issue (they've had him since weaning) if they are not going to be able to form the kind of bond that it takes to make a good horse/ rider team.

I don't have any current pics. I'll have to look and see what I kept from last year or see if I can get some newer ones from SIL.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
"I'll take helmet-hair over head trauma any day." --someone who's experienced both

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HorsesAfterHeadTrauma/

[BelladonnaLily]

I really have no idea about price but I'm a little confused about what you mean by his "training" adding to his value. The only things you've mentioned are typical of the normal handling most babies get and in any event I doubt you'd get any more because he's been handled. Is there something I'm missing?

[TBsRgr8]

Many of the under 2 y.o.s that I've met have not been exposed to lunging, saddling or bridling. I know leading, loading, bathing, etc. are done quite a bit but then again there are many breeders that do not take the time to do that with their youngsters except the top ones that they take to breed shows.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
"I'll take helmet-hair over head trauma any day." --someone who's experienced both

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HorsesAfterHeadTrauma/

[wonky]

What is the other part of the cross?

[TBsRgr8]

I think his dam was a pinto (no TB). My SIL was trying to post a link to a photo a few minutes ago, but is experiencing some technical difficulties with her server.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
"I'll take helmet-hair over head trauma any day." --someone who's experienced both

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HorsesAfterHeadTrauma/

[wanderlust]

Unfortunately, Fresian/Pinto is not a very desirable cross in the dressage world. And I don't think the handling the baby has received is unusual, either. We have a barnful of warmblood yearlings who are all worked with on a daily basis.

Without having seen it, but knowing a bit about the dressage market, I think she's going to have a tough time selling the baby for much above $3k.

~formerly Master Tally~

[TBsRgr8]

She bought him for more than that as a weanling. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Fresian people seem to shell out more and she has been offered more in the past when she was on the fence about selling. Yes, it is a different cross, but his movement is nicer and closer to what is considered "desirable" in the current dressage competition arena than what I have seen in some of the Morgan crosses.

Merlin photos (http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/ksodowsky/album?.tok=phh0giABMmV73q7W&.dir=/6a4a&.src=ph) I wish she hadn't left the almost yearling canter photo in there, it's a really bad moment, but here are photos of Merlin and his parents.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
"I'll take helmet-hair over head trauma any day." --someone who's experienced both

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HorsesAfterHeadTrauma/

[Anne]

"Friesian people" do not breed crossbreds.

Sorry, but it's true.

[Odie222]

Frustrated - I was on agdirect.com today, and there were a lot of fresian and fresian crosses on there (both already sold and unsold) and if those prices are any indication of what people are willing to pay, your sil could probably easily get anthing from 8,000 to upwards of 10,000. From the pics you posted, he is nicer looking (in my oppinion) than some of the yearlings/two-year olds that had sold on the sight. So I would suspect that if she finds the right market she could get good money for him.

Maybe if you or your sil have some time take a look on agdirect.com at some freisians (you can preform the search to include sold horses, so you can get an idea of whats sold and at what prices).

[Horsezee]

I know of two Freisian crosses that were sold last year in CA. One was a coal black three year old mare about 15.2-15.3; that sold for $1500, not yet backed; and a lovely dark six year old gelding, 15.3 hands, almost two years professional dressage training (working 1-2nd level) for $6,500 (he was also registered 1/2 Arabian). There is a HUGE difference between values for the 1/2 breeds and a 'quality' purebred which could bring $10,000+ as a two year old.

Horsezee

[This message was edited by Horsezee on Jan. 25, 2004 at 09:45 PM.]

[Uberraschung]

I believe what Anne says is true. I think I remember seeing that the Fresian registry doesn't accept anything other then purebreds and that the reputable breeders only breed to pure fresian mares....so basically what you have is a grade horse, unless the the horse is somehow registerable through his pinto half.

The fresian cross is (IMHO, although I know that nice fresian crosses exist) an unfortunate fad. Maybe after the cross has been proven and has the backing of the Fresian registry, I will feel differently. For that reason, I wouldn't pay much for a 2yo Fresian/Pinto cross...probably not more than $1k-$1.5k, unless it was truly an exceptional individual.

Your SinL might be better off keeping the horse until he is going well under saddle. She would get a better price then, but then again she would have to spend more to get him there then than she would by selling him in March. It's a toss-up.

[wanderlust]

Sorry frustrated, I was just trying to be honest with you. I'm with Anne and uberraschung- I think the Fresians are a stunning as purebreds, and unfortunately have no interest a "faddish" cross, nor do any of the serious dressage people I know.

Personally, I think it is a bastardization of an absolutely fabulous breed of horse.

As a purebred, a 2-year old Fresian is worth a significant amount of money. But when it is a seemingly indiscriminate pinto cross, your sister is going to have a much harder sell.

JMHO, sorry if it isn't what you wanted to hear. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

~formerly Master Tally~

[mtngirl]

OK, I'm on my soapbox here, so this is going to be long.I have to disagree with wanderlust, Anne and Uberraschung...although it is a fad right now, there are some fabulous Fresian crosses out there. I think you honestly have to evaluate each individual...just as you should any horse before buying it. A truly "serious dressage" person looks at the individual and not just the name of the breed.

Was it a "bastardization" of the breed to include Thoroughbred in the Hanovarian, Oldenburg, Quarter Horse or Appaloosa stud books? Like all arguments, some will say yes and others no. Yet look at what the Thoroughbred and Arab have contributed to the breeding world!

As far as Fresians go...take a look. They're really a fad right now too, and in my opinion there are some really great ones out there...and some really mediocre ones as well. As with any breed, quality seems to take a nose dive as popularity soars and some people begin to breed for the sake of saying they have a certain "breed" which is currently in fashion or demand. There are many, many respectable, responsible breeders out there...and unfortunately some who are only interested in supplying the demand. This is true with any breed, not just the Fresians. Look at how the popularity of the Paint has sky rocketed in the past few years and the warmbloods. We have many of fine quality...and lots of just "so so" quality as well. Just because a horse is a "purebred" doesn't mean it's of high quality or will have the particular traits your want. You're still going to have to assess the individual.

As for crossbreeding...don't knock it. As long as it is done responsibilly I don't see a problem. And that's the key word...with responsibility. Look what the Thoroughbred and Arab have done for other breeds...at what the Quarter Horse and Thoroughbred have done for the Paints, Appaloosas etc. The key here is careful selection and control.

I had a Fresian/Thoroughbred cross filly that unfortunately died from colic. I specifically WANTED a crossbred for several reasons:

1) Yes, I could not afford a purebred Fresian...and those that I MIGHT could afford, were of poor quality.

2) At the time, the gene pool for Fresians in the US was very small and limited. To meet the breed standards was very difficult. This is not a bad thing, but because of this, the price became unreachable for many people

3) I loved the temperment and look of the Fresian breed (actually, of one particular stallion) but wanted something a little more "refined" and with not as much knee action since I compete in dressage...thus the choice of crossing with a thoroughbred...again, in this instance of a particular mare with a specific body type

4) This point I am sure will be hotly denied by some...but I was advised by several breeders (and yes, even by a breeder who ONLY breeds Fresians) and vets, that "hybrid vigor" was a good thing, and that Fresians...because so many were imported and the gene pool was small...were one of the more "fragile" breeds. I cannot say whether this is true or not, since I lost my filly to colic...but I've had several friends with purebred Fresians who claim this is so.

5) I wanted a horse that was suitable for an amateur: of good substance and bone, good temperment and trainablilty and since I ride Dressage - was a good mover that I might handle. I got EXACTLY what I wanted. My filly was going to be of good size (we figured she would have been 16.3-17h), had an awesome disposition...was easy to train and handle and was a beautiful mover...and until she colicked (turned out to be a freak birth defect that could not be overcome) had no health problems.

Would I do it again? You bet. In fact, I'm saving my money now to buy another crossbred. This time I'm not going to breed, but instead choose one of the my filly's siblings. My finances are limited, and the purebreds I've seen that are under $10,000 have not met the standards I have set. If money were no object, then yes, I'd probably try for a purebred. Currently it is beyond what I can afford.

For me it is a personal preference. I look beyond just the "beautiful black fairytale" and at what I think the individual horse can offer. It doesn't always work...and I have to admit that there are some crossbreds out there that aren't very nice. Most of the ones I know however, have been very good amateur horses.

Frustrated: Just for your info...two years ago I was offered $5000 for my filly before she was weaned...and then $8000 for her when she was a yearling. Again, I must emphasize, she was probably the exception to the rule, as she was a beautiful mover and had very nice conformation. Judging from the pics and your description $6k-8k sounds like the right range. Look at Agdirect and equine.com. They have lots of Fresian and Fresian crosses with picture ads. That should help give you a better idea too.

Good luck!

Good luck.

Pisgah Forest,NC in Transylvania county...land of the waterfalls! Come share the beauty!

[hitchinmygetalong]

frustrated:

Has your friend thought of marketing this horse to driving people? She might get a warmer reception there.

Seems like a nice young horse. Good luck to her!

"I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning to sail my ship."
-Louisa May Alcott

[dirtgirl]

Up here in the Midwest Fresian crosses are huge - there are several breeders who are producing these kinds of crosses and prices are around $6,500 and up for weanlings and yearlings. My sense is that these crosses can be registered as Fresian Sport horses, you may want to check that out. Good luck - love the pix, he's cute!

[Anne]

"As long as it is done responsibilly I don't see a problem." (sic)

*I* don't necessarily see a problem with it, either. But the Friesian registry DOES. To the point that they will revoke the registration papers of any purebred Friesian stock that sires or produces a crossbred foal. That leads me to believe that the breeders of the highest quality Friesians are probably not willing to risk their stock by allowing crossbreeding. That leaves the um not so nice horses in the limited gene pool.

Again, I'm not knocking the horse in question or not saying that it won't be the latest greatest dressage superstar, but this is what I've surmised from the registry's rules.

[slc2]

this is an odd situation on a lot of levels.

a 2 year old horse shouldn't be ridden, so i hope they aren't planning on that.

friesian crosses can be sold for a lot of money to people who don't realize the political incorrectness of crossing friesians. many people don't know much about horses and are easy to selll on things.

depending on what it's crossed with and what it looks like and how it moves will determine its price which could be anything from 1200 dollars to 20 thousand dollars. i would guess that if they sell him as an unbacked 2 1/2 yr old he will go for between 4 and 7 grand. how much he really goes for depends on who is selling him and how good of a salesman they are.

i think selling a horse because you don't ''bond'' with it is bizarre...truly bizarre. having the horse not behave the same for a man and a woman is also very strange. i don't understand that at all.

[Celebrity]

Flying W Farms (http://www.flyingwfarms.com/) Has some nice Friesian crosses, and they have been selling these horses for quite some time now.. Some are saddle bred cross, some are tb or paint..
Maybe get an idea of pricing, although I think most or some of these horses are registered which can affect price. Also if you are that unsure you can get an equine appraiser to come look at the horse and give an approx price.

Holsteiner Clique!!
http://home.cogeco.ca/~patm/NOVA2.htm

[Delyth]

I'm not too sure what to make of Flying W, they seem to be shifting direction every 4 years or so to catch the latest 'fad'. Used to be all Georgian Grandes, now they've got some Friesian stallions to put on the draft mares instead (or in addition to). Registered? Maybe, with the Georgian Grande registry, which simply requires parents to be saddlebred x draft/fresian.

89 foals in 2003? Good lord, I have trouble keeping up with our 4-5 a year.

About the horse in question - at coming 2 he's at the worst age to sell, just coming into a major ugly growth stage that all horses go through, especially youngsters that will grow up to be big horses. He's a crossbred. I'd offer him at 5-6k, and be prepared to take less unless she really wants to hold on to him. If you look hard enough you can find a well-bred 2 year-old WB with proven bloodlines and papers for under 10k, you need to keep in mind you are also competing with such horses for buyers.

Under saddle, well trained, if he really does have nice movement and a willing temperamant you could probably ask for 10-15k. But until he reaches this point he is an unknown quantity.

I also question the wisdom of longing a long yearling, but that's another thread.

/edited to correct some lousy grammar/

[This message was edited by Delyth on Jan. 26, 2004 at 01:30 PM.]

[OneonOne]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by slc:
i think selling a horse because you don't ''bond'' with it is bizarre...truly bizarre. having the horse not behave the same for a man and a woman is also very strange. i don't understand that at all.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>What's bizarre about trying to find the best home for a horse? Obviously, this person has figured out that their personalities don't click, and they may not progress together very well. She obviously thinks that someone else could probably take him farther, and is trying to find him a suitable partner. I don't see anything bizarre about that.

In all your time around horses, have you really not ever seen a horse behave differently with men and women? I find that very hard to believe. I've met plenty of horses that were more suited for men or women. My horse, for example, does not get along well with men. Their riding style (which I think tends to be a bit more forceful - a generalization, I know) just does not work for him. I don't think it's uncommon for a horse to have a gender preference. Perhaps all the horses I've worked with are just wacky.

frustrated, for what it's worth, I think the horse is adorable, and I'm guessing there are plenty of people that aren't at all concerned with his breeding. Good luck! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[BelladonnaLily]

Checked out Flying W and have a question for the experts (not to hijack the thread but this just doesn't qualify for a thread of it's own...sorry). A FriesanXSaddlebred is a Georgian Grande warmblood??? That's what the site states, in addition to the Freshires, Preishans and Freishdales? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Is a Georgian Grande actually a warmblood breed?

[slc2]

according to people selling them, they are. the term ''warmblood'' should be good for a least a couple grand added to the price.

some people say a warmblood is any cross bred horse.

warmbloods are part of a system of licensing and inspecting and evaluating horses and choosing the best for sport horse development for 4 specific sports, eventing, dressage, showjumping and driving in the form developed by the fei, an international organization.

these friesadales are being inspected by the seller and the breeder; that doesn't qualify as a warmblood.

they look like nice average horses, i don't feel they are special or should have an excessively high price tag.

[wanderlust]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MTNGIRL:
A truly "serious dressage" person looks at the individual and not just the name of the breed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
True, but a serious dressage person is also going to have their field narrowed down to what they already know is a successful recipe, and not spend time looking at unproven, somewhat bizarre crosses.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Was it a "bastardization" of the breed to include Thoroughbred in the Hanovarian, Oldenburg, Quarter Horse or Appaloosa stud books? Like all arguments, some will say yes and others no. Yet look at what the Thoroughbred and Arab have contributed to the breeding world! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Warmbloods were already an amalgamation of breeds, including thoroughbred. Quarter horses (and appies to some extent) were originally developed from thoroughbreds. The examples you are citing above are breeding like type to like type. There is a complimentariness to crossing TBs with WBs, QHs or appies. The crosses are almost always meant to improve both types with a firm purpose in mind. I don't believe that happens in Fresian crosses. The TB/QH/Paint does not get improved, and there is certainly no improvement to the Fresian.

So to me, it makes ZERO sense to breed a lower quality horse because you can't afford the purebred Fresian. I really hope these crosses fall out of fashion and people go back to breeding complimentary types.

~formerly Master Tally~

[Amy]

slc and others- there are TWO Friesian registries. The German registry does allow crossbreds but only with approved stallions. Look at www.proudmeadows.com (http://www.proudmeadows.com) for a full explanation- they stand the noted Friesian stallions Jorrit and Tinus- both competed and placed quite well in USDF.

[wanderlust]

Amy, I just looked at the Proudmeadows site in the cross-breeding section, and they say nothing about the German registry allowing cross-breeding. They, in fact, say it is not allowed by the Dutch registry, but that they (proudmeadows) will do so. And they have a picture of a not-so-attractive Fresian/QH cross yearling on the page. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

~formerly Master Tally~

[Horsezee]

http://buyhorses.com/scripts/hrsdetl.exe?1045348493&0

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Horsezee

[Delyth]

Yeah, he sure looks 'very quiet' :P

[Coreene]

I agree with Wanderlust and Anne. One of my relations is a Friesian breeder in Holland; I will try and get him to repeat here what he said about Friesian crosses. They don't let crosses into the Dutch studbook for a reason. A Friesian cross is a grade horse.

[Draygonfyne]

Horsezee...I probably wouldn't have put that picture with the caption "gentle giant".

It looks like they were doing some western gaming?

My kingdom for a horse
CHECK OUT MY WEBSITE:
www.draygonfynedesign.ca (http://www.draygonfynedesign.ca)

[Kels]

I agree with Wanderlust that it makes NO sense to breed a crossbred because you cannot afford a full-bred...

Keep saving http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

-Kelsey-
Tomorrow's another day, and I'm thirsty anyway; so bring on the rain.

[Flashy Gray]

I am going to break my longstanding personal rule about commenting on sales ads http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif to say:

What the fuuuuuuh is that photo?

In all honesty - different horse disciplines have 'cultural differences' for example, the flashy photoshopped rippling muscle halter horse pictures are considered de riguer in that sport.

Someone knowledgeable PLEASE tell me that the um, action photo in the above link to the stallion ad is just something that Fresian junkies like? The only Fresian photos I've seen have all been either dressage and/or harness pics.

[Sakura]

I have a double registered Friesian cross. He is registered with the Friesian Sport Horse Registry and the Half Arabian Registry.

Depending on the individuals the cross may be wonderful or catastrophic. The Friesian cross is not a new idea. There is speculation that Friesians were used in the development of the Oldenburg. If out-crosses were never experimented with we would not have half of the breeds of horses we have today.

Take a look at him and tell me if you think he is ugly or lacks talent/potential. I have had may people ask me about his breeding...some guessed he was an Irish Sport Horse, others thought Oldenburg.

http://awhitehorse.i.master.com/texis/master/search/+/image/Equus/DaenJ.jpg

http://awhitehorse.i.master.com/texis/master/search/+/image/Equus/Daen_Trot_3.jpg

http://awhitehorse.i.master.com/texis/master/search/+/image/Equus/Daen_Trot_4.jpg

[Coreene]

Flashy Gray, oh yeah baby. What I find disturbing is "We set the standard for Friesian Crosses" in that at - helLO, there is no standard because a Friesian cross is just that, another crossbred.

And, yes, before someone jumps on me, my new horse is also a crossbred (Hols on top and APHA on the bottom). The bottom has a lot of TB; I got lucky because he is a very nice cross and shows a bit of talent. But crossing carriage horses with paints etc and then "setting a standard," well, OMGiH.

[Sakura]

"http://buyhorses.com/scripts/hrsdetl.exe?1045348493&0"

What the.... I can't believe this photo was selected for an ad. I believe if I ever had a photo of my horse behaving this way I would burn it and destroy the negative!

[Uberraschung]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Take a look at him and tell me if you think he is ugly or lacks talent/potential.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't believe anyone said that the cross never works and only creates ugly, talentless, potential-less nags. My beef with the cross is that the dutch studbook fresians are the finer specimens and are kept pure for that reason - which is why the lesser quality animals are used for breeding these crosses. Maybe it's all semantics, but I'm a big believer in the generations of work and research done by some of the European breed societies (trakehner and selle francais are good examples of closed studbooks). I don't believe in making a new breed just because the original breed is too expensive.

I know many Americans couldn't care less if the horse they own is grade or not, but you will never find me with one (except in a very exceptional cicumstances...but not likely). I believe in the performance objectives of the breeds I support, and I think a knowledgable mating brings the best chance of success for both the horse and the owner. Of course there are exceptions to this, but I like to stack the deck in my favor rather then throw my money, time, and effort into a faddish cross (freishdale? I mean really....).

[Backstage]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MTNGIRL:
there are some fabulous Fresian crosses out there. I think you honestly have to evaluate each individual...just as you should any horse before buying it.

As for crossbreeding...don't knock it. As long as it is done responsibilly I don't see a problem. And that's the key word...with responsibility.


3) I loved the temperment and look of the Fresian breed (actually, of one particular stallion) but wanted something a little more "refined" and with not as much knee action since I compete in dressage...thus the choice of crossing with a thoroughbred...again, in this instance of a particular mare with a specific body type

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It just me feel all warm and fuzzy inside when people jump on a poster for one aspect of their post, while choosing to disregard other portions of their posts. I read MINGIRL and these portions jumped out at me just as much as the cost aspects.

"Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others."
Groucho Marx.

[Sakura]

I did not buy my gelding because a purebred was too expensive. I know some people may buy the crossbreds because their price tags are lower. I bought my horse because I believe he is conformationally exceptional and very athletic.

The Friesian is a breed protected from out-crossing and there is great wisdom in that. They are also very inbred. If they cross well with other breeds to develop athletic mounts suitable for dressage/driving/pleasure then let them. If it produces a horse that is marketable (and $2K-10K for three year old Friesian crosses sounds fairly marketable, especially if they are selling) then they can't be doing too much wrong.

[wanderlust]

SummitTB, I think your horse is lovely. Someone obviously thought about how the two animals they were crossing would compliment eachother, and the result is quite nice.

Unfortunately, most of the crosses I've seen advertised have been from uncomplimentary and unlike types with some pretty unfortunate results.

~formerly Master Tally~

[Sakura]

Thank you. They are not all bad http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[BelladonnaLily]

Now LOOK what ya'll have gone and done. Scared away the original poster. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Actually what scares me more than the actual ACT of crossbreeding is the sheer volume of it. There are exceptions and the results are very nice crossbreds. Having an entire breeding plan set up around this idea is a little scary, IMO. These farms, such as those mentioned here, seem to be breeding just to be breeding. Seems a little hard to believe they have acquired THAT many animals that are perfect for crossbreeding.

As far as Fresians go, I personally wish they would leave the breed alone and go breed gypsy vanners or something... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[blokdijk]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I think the Fresians are a stunning as purebreds, and unfortunately have no interest a "faddish" cross, nor do any of the serious dressage people I know. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ouch, that's a harch statement!
My friend has a Friesian/Andalusian cross and he is absolutely fantastic. Has enough oompf to support his beautiful gates and has a better walk than most dressage horses I've seen here in Australia (at the lower levels at least).

I really think he could do well up to Advanced dressage levels (perhaps not PSG or InterI)

Ivanka Menken
www.horses-store.com (http://www.horses-store.com)
info@horses-store.com

[TBsRgr8]

Nope, not scared away. Just on a whacked up schedule with this silly post-concussion syndrome- lots of insomnia and flipped upside down sleeping schedules. I get here when I can. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

SummitTB, your guy looks like a very kind and willing partner with nice movement that is sized appropriately for his rider (one of my biggest beefs is 5'2" women on 17+h horses because that is the "only thing" that will win in the dressage ring- http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif there is so much more room getting around that 10 m circle on a smaller horse http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif).

I agree with taking each horse as an individual. I thought my sister-in-law was totally nuts when she first told me about this guy but he has grown on me (through video and pics- I haven't gotten to meet him in person). I really liked the movement of the mare in the video that the breeders sent. I really couldn't tell much about the stallion's movement in the video because of bad camera angles and filming in a hilly pasture that hid the horse. I've also known a Hann. mare of top bloodlines that had "perfect" conformation when standing still but when she started moving had very pronounced swinging of the lower legs, front and back- she still was able to get into the top stud book, but it was a shock to see the perfection not look quite so perfect when it trotted. The stallion owner liked that mare as a filly so much that she bought the dam and the following matings (at least 3-4) of the same mare/ stallion did not produce another baby of the same quality as the first one. I'm also not going to assume that the rest of the world is only going to like chestnut TB mares because that is the type/ personality of horse that I am most drawn to.

My sister-in-law does not lunge the baby every day, or even necessarily every week. He is also worked free in the round pen to re-enforce his training. She does not generally have time to work with him in a training setting more than 3 days a week, though he is groomed/ feet picked daily. When he is lunged, the sessions are kept short (10 minutes or less total) so that his attention span and legs not overly stressed. His lunging sessions are for introduction to training/ voice commands only, not physical conditioning.

Though the horse has had a saddle and bridle put on him, there is no intention of putting a rider on his back this year. (I guess somebody missed the part where I said that he has not been "backed yet")

My sister-in-law is looking into taking him to some of the USDF Sport Horse Breed Shows this spring/ summer to get him out a bit, even if he does not place she wants him exposed to a show environment. She has been fortunate that he has grown fairly evenly thus far and has not gone through any really "ugly duckling" stages.

She is not in a rush to sell but would like to see him go to a home where they could better maximize the horse's potential. She now realizes that the horse has the potential to go much further than she has experience to be able to take him at this time and that while she is raising her young family she cannot focus the time and $$ that it would take to devlop her own skills to match this horse. Since they now own 3 other equines (in addition to the almost 2 y.o.) and the kids are getting very interested in riding, she has to consider the family horse budget. Plus, by selling the youngster, she will be able to show her older gelding more to get more experience of her own as she would like to pursue her USDF teaching certificate through 2nd level. Even though the older guy won't get her all the way there, she will be able to get some of the work under her belt and start saving more $$ toward getting training, instruction, etc. and purchasing another horse more advanced down the road that she will be able to finish up the work that it will take to meet her riding/ teaching goals. It kinda' seems like it will take longer by selling the baby now, but I think in the long run, she will be able to get there faster. (No "I told ya' so"s over here. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif I'm not sayin' it. *zip lip*)

Sister-in-law said that they were going to try to get some newer photos this evening and post them on the page that I linked on the first page of this thread.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
"I'll take helmet-hair over head trauma any day." --someone who's experienced both

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HorsesAfterHeadTrauma/

[TBsRgr8]

Those of you who swear you will NEVER own a cross-bred horse, be very careful of what you speak. Fate, God, karma, the Universe (whatever you believe in) has a very funny way of coming back to "get you" and/ or a great sense of humor. When I first got into horses, I swore that I would NEVER own a FULL blooded Thoroughbred. I even told my mom to have me committed if I ever went so far as to purchase one of these things. Well, 10 or so years later, I am now owned by 2 TBs (both tatooed) and exactly what I said that I would never own. I wouldn't trade 'em for the world now. Somebody somewhere's havin' a good laugh.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
"I'll take helmet-hair over head trauma any day." --someone who's experienced both

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HorsesAfterHeadTrauma/

[nhwr]

Used to be that if you bred a Dutch approved (meaning inspected and approved to breed) friesian stallion to a non friesian mare, your stallion would loose his approval. I don't know for sure if it is still true, but I think it is. So what you have going on with cross breds is stallions, who don't measure up to the breed standard, being used for crosses. I don't think that bodes well for the quality of the offspring.

Summit TB, I think the photos of your horse prove my point. First let me say he is indeed a lovely animal. But he demonstrates quite well why friesians and their offspring are not really suitable for dressage. He has a very large shoulder relative to his hind end. This is what was developed in the breed, afterall. They are pullers. This is not what you really want in a dressage prospect. In the photos you posted, he is out behind a bit and show a tendancy to be behind the vertical, this is a sign of weakness. Will he be a nice horse for you? I don't doubt it. But these are issues you'll have overcome, if you want to compete. I used to train with someone who had a USDF nationally ranked friesian in her barn that she trained from the ground up. Even she said, as a breed, they aren't suited to dressage. And what she did to produce the work from the horse was more than I would find acceptable for any horse I owned.

Why are people so enamored with friesian, anyway? Because they are black and they are docile. They appeal to people who value a horse primarily because of it color and need a horse that is very docile, meaning a beginner. Add this to the fact that as a breed, they have sub servicable vital capacity as sport horses and a propencity towards colic, well, even the approved stallions aren't what I'd choose for a sport horse cross. The unapproved ones look even less desirable. They have nothing beyond their looks to recommend them as sporthorses, IMO.


Flame suit zipped. Have at me http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[slc2]

all of it agreed. all of it, nwhr.

more than many comments from trainers and judges alike. friesians are the latest fad dressage horse, with andalusians and spanish normans hot on their tails.

i've seen dozens of these come and go since i got into dressage 30 yrs ago. dozens. there's a new fad every couple years.

[This message was edited by slc on Jan. 26, 2004 at 09:30 PM.]

[Sakura]

nhwr,
"In the photos you posted, he is out behind a bit and show a tendancy to be behind the vertical, this is a sign of weakness."

For crying out loud he has only had 60 days of professional training and he will be four in March. How many four year olds with 60 days do you know who are traveling on the bit and going like a broke to death horse? I did not buy him as a potential Grand Prix horse. He is much nicer than many, many other horses out there priced at what I paid for him.

As for Andalusians and Spanish Normans...they were the original dressage horse. Of course there is a place for them. For God's sake people, if someone buys a donkey to train and ride to the Nth level WHO are you to tell them their choice is bad?

[nhwr]

Summit TB,

I said I think he is a lovely horse. I am only commenting on the pics you posted. You asked people to comment on the level of his/talent and potential, after all. I have a 4 year old, who has just under 90 days under saddle. He can stay up and open all the time and is on the bit most of the time, at this point in his training.

If someone buys a donkey to train and ride to the Nth level WHO am I to tell them their choice is bad? I am one of the people whose opinion you asked for. And I didn't say your choice is bad, I just don't think it is the choice that leads to a superior sport horse prospect. That doesn't make it a bad choice. But you did ask for comments about potential.

[slc2]

i don't feel the friesian or the friesian cross in general is a choice that leads to a superior sport horse prospect either, but it could be a fun horse to ride around at local shows at the lower levels; i don't see any of them doing more than that. even the 'stars' competing at grand prix are not showing the correctness needed to win at the more difficult shows.

a few of the crosses are nice and this grey horse looks like a nice kind hearted fellow.

it is not that he isn't on the bit, i don't think that is what nhwr wants to see at all, quite the opposite, and i see the same thing. it is that his neck is too curled in and his head is brought in too far, and she says this is from weakness. his chin is almost on his chest in both pictures.

he should be stretching his neck out more and not be in that position regardless of whether he is a green or an advanced dressage horse. this position wouldn't ever be correct; i agree with nhwr.

the weakness is often in the back; it can also be due to overzealous efforts to get the horse on the bit by ''putting him in a frame'' or over riding with the hands or with devices.

another problem you often see with friesians is that they have their ''head in your lap''; the head is carried high, extremely high in the most stylish showy ones, and they often get an extremely exaggerated neck and head position with a dropped back and hind quarters out behind, it looks something like a fine harness horse rigged up with an overcheck. it then becomes hard to develop a proper topline on them and to develop a correct performance in the dressage ring. any horse can be taught to do tricks; the tough part is having a really good connection through the back and neck and having true collection.

the mane, front action and high head carriage makes them appealing and showy to the spectators, but it's hard to get the correct bearing.

[Sakura]

I understand where you guys are coming from. However, I did not buy him to be an upper level contender. He is a very fun horse to ride, and regretfully I must admit that I have not given him the time under saddle that he deserves. He has had MUCH of the winter off if not most. No, he is not very strong, yes his conformation lends its self to him being curled up (we are working on that). The fact that I can be a little heavy handed at times does not help the matter either.

I will most likely show him on the Arabian circuit as that is where he will be most appreciated. The Half Arabian classes offer a rainbow of competition where diversity is looked upon as a good thing not freakish or as a fad http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[TBsRgr8]

Okay guys, this is starting to consistantly wander waaaaay far away from the original question. To cross-breed or not might be an interesting topic with some interesting opinions and certainly a topic that could stand up as a thread on it's own. However, that is not what was asked in the beginning of this thread. Having other horses of similar breeding to compare the horse in question to is helpful in trying to figure out what will be a fair starting price to ask for Merlin when he is put up for sale, debating whether or not the breed should be crossed won't help to further that cause in this particular case. Nor will it unbreed the horse (he's already on the ground and here to stay for awhile). The horse in question has been gelded, so he will not be further contributing to the gene pool and has to stand on his own temperament/ conformation/ performance/ potential alone in going to his next home.

Let's get this back on track or I'm locking the thread. Feel free to start another topic on to cross-breed or not to cross-breed, or one on what the rules of the Fresian/ Fresian Sport Horse stud books of the varying countries are, or whatever.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
"I'll take helmet-hair over head trauma any day." --someone who's experienced both

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HorsesAfterHeadTrauma/

[Uberraschung]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by frustrated:
Those of you who swear you will NEVER own a cross-bred horse, be very careful of what you speak. Fate, God, karma, the Universe (whatever you believe in) has a very funny way of coming back to "get you" and/ or a great sense of humor. When I first got into horses, I swore that I would NEVER own a FULL blooded Thoroughbred. I even told my mom to have me committed if I ever went so far as to purchase one of these things. Well, 10 or so years later, I am now owned by 2 TBs (both tatooed) and exactly what I said that I would never own. I wouldn't trade 'em for the world now. Somebody somewhere's havin' a good laugh.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
"I'll take helmet-hair over head trauma any day." --someone who's experienced both

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HorsesAfterHeadTrauma/<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I assume that you are talking about me here, and I think you misunderstood me. I never said that I wouldn't buy a crossbred, but rather that I wouldn't buy a grade horse. Big difference. If you weren't talking about me, then I apologize.

I like the fresian. I think they are cool. We have some at our dressage barn. They are kind, gentle, and easy to have around. They aren't what I would pick for myself to do dressage, but they make their A/A owners very happy, which is the most important part. I would love to have a pair with which to do competitive driving. That would be awesome.

I just can't support the idea of the fresian cross though, sorry. It just seems so pointless, but I think we may just have to agree to disagree here.

[Sakura]

Hey now, it is all relevant. Yours would not be the first thread to go astray.

As for your comment "Nor will it unbreed the horse (he's already on the ground and here to stay for awhile).", it is very true. A two year old Friesian X, some ground work, handled, $2K.

[nhwr]

Hey frustrated, you started this thread. But we all contributed to it. It goes where it goes, IMO.

I agree with Summit TB $2K sounds about right.

[Amy]

Wanderlust- if you read a bit more of the site they mention they are breeders of the German studbook- but maybe they are not too clear on that. They also list a set of standards for crossbreeding. I also think it is a bit unfair to judge a foal based on one picture taken at ? age... but they did post it on the website.

NHWR- Having ridden a Friesian I laughed at your 'they are for beginners'... not all Friesians and the first time I was told to do sitting trot I thought they were joking! I definitely would not call any of them beginner horses! Yes- they tend to be calmer, but my 4 yo tb is calm and gives beginner lessons but I would by no means recommend Tb's for beginners! As a matter of fact I have found many of the Friesians to be push and somewhat hard to handle on the ground. And when they are hard to handle that is one big problem. The folks that are breeding crosses many times are using unapproved stallions that is true- because the Dutch will take the papers if they find out. The German reg. wants them to use approved stallions only- but I know some that still breed stallions that are not approved. One particularly nice stallion that is being used as a cross that I met was not approved because he had a white star. That was the only reason- because the color requirements are so strict.

I personally looked at buying a Friesian but decided not to basically because IMHO from the ones I have seen or worked on through the vet you tend to have more issues with them. Probably from the small gene pool. I have also seen cross breds that were stunning. Like ANY breeding- you have to look at the qualities of the mare and the stallion. You can get crap from ANY breeding- even approved WB stallions. We all know they are out there. The nicest cross bred foals I have seen were out of really nice Tb mares (not just track rejects that are bought for meat price) and wb mares- one Holsteiner cross is to DIE for- I would take him any day of the week!

[nhwr]

Amy, you misunderstand what I meant. I think friesians appeal to beginners, the kind of buyer of shops primarily for color and an apparently docile temperament. I don't think they are necessarily suitable mounts for beginners, though, especially in dressage. But I have said, I don't think they are really suited for dressage.

FYI, a white star is not grounds for denial of approval with the dutch. It is perimissible. So I think you are being told a tale about the stallion you refer to. Breeding anything is a crap shoot, at best. You can narrow the odds by taking advantage of advice (offered in the form of approval) or you can blaze your own trail. It is risky no matter what. I just don't like to see people with childhood dreams of a shiny black horse get taken advantage of.

[Lianne]

*lol* oh my god.. some of the commentso n this thread are out of this world.

To the person who would never own a grade horse - please PLEASE tell me you said that because you're a breeder. My filly has been oohed and aaahed over ever since I got her, she's by a gold-medal winning Westphalian stallion out of a lovely TB mare. But I have no papers, so guess what? That technically makes her a "grade".

And to the person who pointed out "an ugly Friesian/QH foal" on one of the websites. I love this double-standard. When someone posts on this board bemoaning how UGLY their Warmblood foal/weanling/yearling is, everyone pats them on the back, there there, it's just the growth stage, they'll grow out of it... But when shown a pic of an ugly-looking Friesian/QH foal, you automatically assume it's the cross that is at the root of the ugliness. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Some of you people ASTOUND me.

Frustrated - if this horse is well-conformed, moves well and has a great temperament, you WILL find someone who will not care about his breeding. This thread has proven that these open-minded people are far and few in between, but they are out there. If this horse is as nice as you say, then I think 3-5K is fair, at this point in his training.

[Kels]

I can see the appeal of the fresian to people...They are massive black horses...Very striking to look at. To me, and I know better so don't get me wrong, a fresian is just not correct for what I want to do, but to me they are gorgeous and appealing to LOOK at.

So yes, I can see the appeal- many people are out to impress those who know nothing about horses, and unfortunately, most of these people know nothing themselves.

I can also see why a crossbred fresian would be something appealing to these same people. They can't afford or want something a little different. They think they are getting "power" and "stamina" by getting a fresian or something that came from a fresian.

SummitTB I am not bashing your guy I think he's cute and obviously perfect for what you plan to do with him- and you obviously love him very much http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I don't agree with the crossbreeding though because many people who are doing this kind of breeding don't have the slightest clue. But, that comes with the breeding of any breed.

-Kelsey-
Tomorrow's another day, and I'm thirsty anyway; so bring on the rain.

[Sakura]

Do they really not know what they are doing? Or are thy trying to create something new and different encompassing the qualities of two wonderful breeds? Many "new" breeds created from crossbreeding have offered more than the pure/original version of the breed...the National Show Horse, Morab, American WB, American Sport Horse and the Friesian Sport Horse (there are others of course)....all of which have their own Registries. As long as there are folks out there buying them then there is a market.

Frustrated,
You will be able to sell the gelding your SIL has, but don't expect to get more than you would for any other un-broke two year old simply because one parent is a Friesian. Is he registered with the Friesian Sport Horse Registry? If not, see what you can do to at least get that documintation...it is amazing the difference a simple piece of paper can make (although there will still be people who will not take it seriously http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ).

[slc2]

the trouble with crossbreeding is this.

the more UN related the two parents are, the more unpredictable and inconsistent the outcome will be. this is called 'genetic scatter'. the more distantly related two parents are, the harder it is to tell what their offspring will be like, AND the harder it is to breed uniform individuals. the biggest goal of breeding livestock from the geneticist's point of view is consistency and predictability. it doesn't pay a breeder to create one outstanding individual in a lifetime of work and create hundreds or thousands of worthless animals along with it - animals he can't sell or improve his position from.

friesians have been kept free of outside bloodlines for what may possibly be centuries, and are the most unrelated to the horses they are being crossed with as they possibly could be.

crossbreeding with freisians is frowned upon by their founders and flame-keepers for a very good reason.

a similar effort in britain, to cross icelandics with thoroughbreds and produce a small, refined child's pony, failed miserably. in 900 years, no new blood has come into iceland, and the efforts to create crossbreds made this genetic isolation sadly apparent.

similar efforts using welsh ponies succeeded. why? because the breeders were excellent, experienced horse breeders with decades of breeding and conformation and performance knowledge, for one thing, but also largely because welshes already have a great deal of blood of the horses they were being crossed with. english breeds and hot bloods. the offspring were more uniform and more predictable, and THAT is the base from which you develop superior individuals with the traits you want. similar crosses of trakehners and thoroughbreds, warmbloods and thoroughbreds (warmbloods have been getting crossed with thoroughbreds and trakehners for hundreds of years), and quarter horses and thoroughbreds were quickly successful for the same reason, because the animals already had a lot of bloodlines in common.

if you cross a thoroughbred and a heavy draft horse like a shire, you get genetic scatter. the offspring might be a heavy horse with tiny legs, a heavy horse that looks all draft, or a slim horse with substance...and i can take you to a stable and show you 7 offspring of the exact same two parents, one a draft and one a thoroughbred, and not one of those 7 offspring look anything like the other, you would never even believe they were related. that is genetic scatter.

a breeder from poland was interested in some half drafts at our barn because at one point in poland they had attempted a cross with an agricultural ride and drive horse and very light thoroughbreds, now these aren't draft horses, but dual purpose horses and even so, he looked at the draft thoroughbred crosses and laughed, ''yes they are freaks, like ours'' (his words, not mine). he was breeding light sport horses, and the agricultural/thb as well as the first generation half draft cross is often far too heavy, even given the diverse results you get.

the crossbreeding really does have to have some sort of rhyme or reason to it. crossing two animals that are so dissimilar and have traits that are directly opposite each other (riding conformation, harness conformation, for example) don't make good first generation crosses.

even if you imagine that crossbreeding somehow would result in a perfect blend, and that crossing a long backed and a short backed horse would result in a first generation offspring with a back of perfect length, you will quickly find that it doesn't work that way. the more different the parents are for a given trait, the less unpredictable the outcome is in the offspring, not more.

stretching the relationship to pretend the two parents have bloodlines in common just doesn't work. it's just as silly to say draft and saddlebreds cross well because they both came from the same primitive eohippus 162 million years ago as to say that they are closely related because they both have some extremely distant great great great great great great great grandsire in common. the relationship has to be close on and it has to include more than one atypical ancestor.

if i were to cross a friesian with any breed, i would first sit down and think about what i was trying to achieve in doing so, instead of letting anyone breed anything to my stallion that could walk in the door and write a check. what do i hope to produce by crossing a morgan and a friesian? what traits do i want? what am i hoping i get? how unpredictable will the results be? how satisfactory will the offspring be?

if i were to cross a friesian with another breed, i might try a dutch harness horse...or i might just sit there and wonder if there really was any rhyme or reason in crossing them with another breed at all. from the results i see, they aren't all anywhere near as nice as the horse summittb has; i don't feel most are suitable for anything other than casual use.

[wanderlust]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lianne:
*lol* oh my god.. some of the commentso n this thread are out of this world.

And to the person who pointed out "an ugly Friesian/QH foal" on one of the websites. I love this double-standard. When someone posts on this board bemoaning how UGLY their Warmblood foal/weanling/yearling is, everyone pats them on the back, there there, it's just the growth stage, they'll grow out of it... But when shown a pic of an ugly-looking Friesian/QH foal, you automatically assume it's the cross that is at the root of the ugliness. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Some of you people ASTOUND me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Excellent. I like astounding people. And since I made the comments about the QH/Fresian foal, I'll take credit. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Lots of babies go through the uglies. However, I believe that I have a good enough eye to determine what is a funny growth stage and what it going to end up being poor conformation. If I were a betting person, I'd bet money that the QH/Fresian cross yearling on the website is going to look as bizarre as an adult as it does as a yearling. I assume the cross is at the root of the uglies as I can go through and say "oh yeah, there's that QH rear end, and there's that Fresian neck." The pieces don't fit together and are very characteristic of the two breeds, therefore it is reasonable to assume that it is the breeds that are causing a large portion of the uglies.

Not to mention that when the WB breeders are bemoaning the uglies that their 2-year olds are going through, they ARE NOT advertising on their website as an exemplary foal produced by their breeding program. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

So, having said that, I don't understand why you would be so astounded by a fairly well-reasoned statement.

~formerly Master Tally~

[slc2]

it is actually pretty hard to tell if a weanling or yearling is going to fix up as a 3 or 4 year old.

if you really are that good at telling, i think there are a large number of people worldwide who want to contract your services.

in truth, i don't think you can always predict that so cleverly.

but what you CAN spot is actual conformation FAULTS. there are a great many things about young horses that won't change, and maturity and the fat it brings may mask some problems from some eyes until you get on the beast and try to ride it, or train it over time and keep it sound.

i saw a friesian quarter horse cross and some morgan friesian crosses, and there was nothing about any of them that maturity was going to fix up. can it come out well? sure. from time to time.

[nhwr]

Additionally, highly inbred populations tend to have prevalent undesirable traits, like HYPP in quarter horses or small lungs in friesians. While these traits are usually recessive, and therefore unnoticed in a large more random population, they tend to show up frequently in crosses. It is better to use a more heterozygous popluation for crossing.

[Kels]

I believe that if these people TRULY knew what they were doing- they would not be using the fresian stallions who are not approved. Those who are unapproved are unapproved for a reason. There is no reason to carry on those bloodlines or try to create a new breed from them because there was something WRONG.

-Kelsey-
Tomorrow's another day, and I'm thirsty anyway; so bring on the rain.

[wanderlust]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by slc:
it is actually pretty hard to tell if a weanling or yearling is going to fix up as a 3 or 4 year old.

&lt;snip&gt;

but what you CAN spot is actual conformation FAULTS. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

slc, any good horseman with a good eye can tell the difference between conformation faults and baby uglies. That was my point, not that I can magically predict what the horses will look like as adults, down the minute detail. But again, knowing what I know of the parents, and seeing the way that baby is put together, I think that it is going to be an unattractive mish-mash as an adult.

~formerly Master Tally~

[Lianne]

I have to respectfully disagree, wanderlust.
http://www.proudmeadows.com/main.html

That baby is CUTE. Yes, he has a nice, big round QH bum. Yes, he has high-set, Friesian style neck. These conformation traits may not be ideal for sporthorse disciplines, for whatever reason, but a big round croup and a high-set neck are NOT conformation flaws. Just because you'Re used to seeing lower necksets on TB's and WB's, doesn't make it a fault to have a higher-set neck.

I would never kick that baby out of my paddock, he's a cutie-pie. Yes, he looks like a Friesian/QH cross. So? He certainly is not ugly.

[wanderlust]

Lianne, we will have to agree to disagree. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

To me, a mish-mash of parts is faulty conformation.

He would serve no purpose for me, as he will likely not be a sporthorse prospect for dressage, hunters or eventing. I will again make a bet http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif, this time that the QH people will want nothing to do with him, as he doesn't have the build to succeed in WP/HUS/cutting/reining/etc. He's definitely not an endurance prospect. I can't say either way whether the competitive driving people would be interested in him. Which leaves him a career as a pleasure or trail horse. And they are probably asking more money than one would normally pay for a pleasure horse, simply because he's half Friesian.

The breeders have managed to exclude him from all the disciplines that both base breeds excel at, (as well as eliminating any chance he would have of succeeding at either QH shows or Friesian breed awards) all in the name of breeding a trendy cross. Again, I just don't see the logic in it, even if he is cute.

~formerly Master Tally~

[Lianne]

I'm sure that nobody is thinking this foal will be the next FEI World Champion freestyle horse, wanderlust. Not everyone thinks the Olympic disciplines are the end-all be-all. I think it's pretty ambitious of you automatically decree that because of his mismatched bum and neck this foal will be good for nothing other than trail or pleasure. There are sooo many factors that come into play when deciding a horse's potential, besides his individual body parts. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[wanderlust]

I give up. I didn't realize it was no longer appropriate to think that a good breeder's goal should be to match superior and complimentary horses, thereby increasing the chances of producing quality offspring. My bad. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
Yes, he could make a nice lower level dressage or eventing mount. That is what I meant by "pleasure horse". Pleasurable to ride, will probably never be competitive at mid and upper-levels. Nothing at all wrong with that, they are wonderful animals who serve a purpose to many people. But I'm not interested in that, which is why I said that he would serve no purpose for ME.

And btw- since when are cutting/western pleasure/hunter under saddle (or just plain A-circuit hunters) Olympic disciplines?

Yeesh. Maybe we should start talking about saddlebreds again. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

~formerly Master Tally~

[This message was edited by wanderlust on Jan. 27, 2004 at 01:39 PM.]

[equescool]

Yeesh. Maybe we should start talking about saddlebreds again.&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Or spelling - PLEASE you LOSE your keys, you let LOOSE your horse in the pasture. I even see newspapers making this mistake...........posted by one who NEVER sees the typos I have typed myself &lt;G&gt; EQ

[Lianne]

Again, what YOU think is complimentary, mis-matched, or ugly (although now you're saying you agree he's cute) and was basically a bad breeding decision in your eyes, could very well be the best thing this breeder ever did. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

One man's trash is another man's treasure.
People on this board are so quick to judge and put down other people's choices, decisions and actions. I'm not saying that you should consider this kind of cross, wanderlust, if it's
not your thing, that's fine! But there's a big difference between saying it's not for you, and insinuating that it was bad breeding idea in the first place, because YOU think it's not going to turn out to be what YOU like.

Personally, Friesian crosses aren't my thing either. But I won't go around telling people nobody will be interested in them just because I assume they all want the same things as me.

p.s. I don't want to make you my enemy, wanderlust. Sorry, I get passionate and argumentative, forgive me. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[slc2]

such a horse isn't balanced. the front end is not right and the hind legs are crooked. it may not stand up to very hard work. there are many horses available like that for fun riding; the issue is that they do not cost 30 thousand dollars.

[slc2]

a good breeder's goal should be to match superior and complimentary horses

that is not sufficient when breeding horses. two individuals could be very superior and should never, ever be bred to each other.

as stated, there is no such thing as complementary. you can't breed a long backed and a short backed horse and get the right length back. but you must not breed two individuals who are weak in the same area, either.

[CuriousGeorge]

Okay so my Zorse Warmblood project hasn't been working out too well... maybe my next marketing venture should be Friesian x Saddlebred crosses. But can I call them Warmbloods? Only if I am breeding for an Olympic discipline, right?

[slc2]

call them whatever you want; everyone else does.

[Lianne]

Oh, yay, CG the alter is back. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[ALF]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CuriousGeorge:
Okay so my Zorse Warmblood project hasn't been working out too well... maybe my next marketing venture should be Friesian x Saddlebred crosses. But can I call them Warmbloods? Only if I am breeding for an Olympic discipline, right?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You didn't read the whole thread CG! A Fresian x Saddlebred is a Georgian Grande Warmblood http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Says so right in the link from page one (http://www.flyingwfarms.com/). If you want to do your zebra x Fresian, I think that would make is a George W. Warmblood.

[wanderlust]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by slc:
as stated, there is no such thing as complementary. you can't breed a long backed and a short backed horse and get the right length back. but you must not breed two individuals who are weak in the same area, either.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, I give up. Apparently now I know nothing about genetics and think long+short=medium. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Wait, wait, isn't that kind of like hot+cold=WARMBLOOD??? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[slc2]

breeding horses doesn't work like that. you have no guarantee that long + short = just right. this isn't porridge and it isn't the 3 bears.

[wonky]

Random breeding scares me. Horses are long lived, expensive to maintain animals. A ranch that is producing large numbers of cross bred horses for no distinct market other than, they are cute babies, just seems irresponsible to me. When does it become like a puppy mill? People are free to breed what they want but these are living creatures and not just merchandise. A Freisian clysdale is at my barn. The lady loves him and he is sweet.He is well over 16 hands at 2 years. His joints are scary to me. Will he stay sound? Will all her efforts pay off and he become her dressage mount as planned ( she is not tall and hasn't ridden in years)? I hope so. I hope in 10 years he is competing with her happily. I worry for them both.

[trailblazer]

It's quite odd to see who is calling some breeds or crosses "faddish." Warmbloods are the ULTIMATE faddish cross, and they seem to be doing quite well for themselves!

Anyway, I have no use for a horse who is NOT a pleasure horse. Any horse who is not a pleasure to ride is kicked out of my barn! He is of no service to me. Sure, I'll try to find him a good home. But I want to waste as little time as possible on such horses.

Finally, the original poster asked for the fair market value for her Friesian cross. Did anyone even bother to look at the pictures? Probably not. It would depend on your area, but I would say at least $5000. This could go up with training (and advertising).

P.S. I fail to see what is SO terrible about the Friesian/QH cross we are referring to. He is nicer than most of the horses posted here. Naturally he is not what most WB people are looking for. DUH! He's not a WB! Is it that complicated???

I make it a point not to bash other people's breeding programs just because I prefer a different breed. Most of their horses would never be allowed into my barn, but I stay out of the conversation instead of telling them that...

[hb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nhwr:
Additionally, highly inbred populations tend to have prevalent undesirable traits, like HYPP in quarter horses or small lungs in friesians. While these traits are usually recessive, and therefore unnoticed in a large more random population, they tend to show up frequently in crosses. It is better to use a more heterozygous popluation for crossing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wouldn't a recessive trait be LESS likely to show up in a cross? The recessive gene would need to be in BOTH parents for the trait to express.

[nhwr]

Less likely than in the inbred population, yes. But in a more heterzygous population, most recessive traits are "under the radar". So you can get a surprize.

Take the lung issue with friesians. They can easily get heat stroke because of it. Not a great trait for a sport horse in a warm climate. But pulling a carriage in Northern Europe doesn't produce the same stress so it isn't a big deal for friesians in that situation. Now consider a friesian in California, Texas or Arizona. The issue is known and hopefully it is addressed. Now consider the cross maybe it a friesian/TB or qtr horses or arab. The problem is less likely to occur, but is rarely anticipated when it does.

[TBsRgr8]

I'm reposting the photo link, just in case anyone else is interested in taking a look at Merlin himself (only 3 posters have commented directly on the conformation horse in question). There's one from the breeders of his dam and there are also a few pics of the Dutch approved stallion. My sister-in-law hopes to get some more recent photos taken and posted shortly. Merlin photos (http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/ksodowsky/album?.tok=phh0giABMmV73q7W&.dir=/6a4a&.src=ph)

I've already been through the discussion many times of the wisdom of purchasing a horse of this breeding and the pros and cons about what she might be dealing with if she ever wanted/ had to resell, a year and a half ago after SIL lost the Morgan mare she had originally purchased that was supposed to be in foal to one of the breeder's stallions (I think a different stallion, but still Dutch approved) to colic (this colt was supposed to be part of a live foal guarantee deal- long story). I also picked apart the conformation of both the mare and the stallion as well as the baby as best I could with the quality of the video and photos that we had to work with- and I'm VERY, VERY picky in the conformation department when looking at a horse (it's taken seeing tons of TB mares out at shows, etc. on top of seeing the 2 y.o. Holst. X colt that she had and my vets commenting {one worked at a track prior to joining the practice that now sees all kinds of sport horses and polo ponies- he's seen a few nice TBs} about what a nice mare she was for me to realize exactly what it is that I purchased). In the end, since it was going to be HER horse and HER money going into it, it had to be HER decision. Is it a horse that I would want for myself? Probably not. I don't have the same goals that she does either. But then again, nobody else would put up with the soundness issues (pedal osteoitis,in remission at this time; cataracts in one eye; old bow that has flared a few times), under saddle antics (developed a bucking and bolting habit with the blurred vision and progression of the cataracts) and much less than ideal dressage conformation (built a tad downhill, almost fits length-wise in a WB size 2-horse trailer, very weak connection in the loins) of my ex-'chaser. He wasn't exactly what I was looking for at the time, but his personality, gaits (particularly overtracking at the walk just walking in from the field), work ethic, and price tag won me over. I wouldn't trade him for the world. I've learned a ton from this horse and even if he never works another day in his life, he has a home with me 'til death do us part. He's in retirement for now and we will see what happens as I recover from my injuries even though my mom would be happy to see me never ride him again because of his unpredictability and the implications of the risks of another head injury.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
"I'll take helmet-hair over head trauma any day." --someone who's experienced both

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HorsesAfterHeadTrauma/

[Coreene]

I think 5K is a bit ambitious. 2k is more like it; all it is now is a green horse.

[slc2]

he betters his mother anyway.

i think considering how wild people are about friesians you might get quite a bit mroe than 2. depending on the area 5

[-ponybreath-]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wanderlust:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lianne:
*lol* oh my god.. some of the commentso n this thread are out of this world.

And to the person who pointed out "an ugly Friesian/QH foal" on one of the websites. I love this double-standard. When someone posts on this board bemoaning how UGLY their Warmblood foal/weanling/yearling is, everyone pats them on the back, there there, it's just the growth stage, they'll grow out of it... But when shown a pic of an ugly-looking Friesian/QH foal, you automatically assume it's the cross that is at the root of the ugliness. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Some of you people ASTOUND me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Excellent. I like astounding people. And since I made the comments about the QH/Fresian foal, I'll take credit. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Lots of babies go through the uglies. However, I believe that I have a good enough eye to determine what is a funny growth stage and what it going to end up being poor conformation. If I were a betting person, I'd bet money that the QH/Fresian cross yearling on the website is going to look as bizarre as an adult as it does as a yearling. I assume the cross is at the root of the uglies as I can go through and say "oh yeah, there's that QH rear end, and there's that Fresian neck." The pieces don't fit together and are very characteristic of the two breeds, therefore it is reasonable to assume that it is the breeds that are causing a large portion of the uglies.

Not to mention that when the WB breeders are bemoaning the uglies that their 2-year olds are going through, they ARE NOT advertising on their website as an exemplary foal produced by their breeding program. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

So, having said that, I don't understand why you would be so astounded by a fairly well-reasoned statement.

~_formerly Master Tally_~<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I have read the whole thread but had to comment since I know the horse that wanderlust has chosen to bash. He is now 7 (i think) years old. He is a really really nice horse. He has competed around the country as a driving horse. He has done REALLY well. He has an absolutely fabulous temperament. My coach drives him in a pair with a Welsh Cob/TB. Another driving horse from Proud Meadows is vying for the World Singles Championships. He has consistently had winning dressage scores. One of the other crosses is an unbroke 2 yo, and advertised at 20k (this one is not owned by Proud Meadows, but is by the same stallion). Why the Proud Meadows people have not updated their site- I don't know. I believe the Proud Meadows folks are associated with the German verband... But I don't know the exact details. Their stallions ARE approved. They are not attempting to create a new breed. The Friesian crosses are supposed to have the Freisian looks, but with added endurance. They also have really good temperaments. Some are obviously nicer than others.

The horse being discussed , is like Lianne said, very cute. He is not conformationally deformed or ugly. He has stood up to heavy work- he does CDE marathons. Give me a break ! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[vxf111]

I would think that he would go for about what any other draft/ non-tb type cross would go for in your area. While Fresians are a popular breed at the moment, the Fresian/ paint cross is kind of an odd one. I'd think Merlin would be about the same price range as other colts with equal handling who where draft/qh or draft/ paint crosses. He's nice looking, and black-- which might get you a little more. And there's a possibility someone star struck with the idea of a Fresian cross might come along.

He's nice looking, but at this point, he doesn't really LOOK like a Fresian, he looks like a cross. So I don't think the crazy-for-Fresian types are going to be lining up for him. I'd price him just about as any other draft/qh or draft/paint cross in your area.

Now get him going under saddle down the road and it's a whole nother ball of wax. Non-traditional crosses seem to be a tough sell as prospects, but once the horse is proven people just want to buy the winner-- they care a LOT less about what the makeup of the horse is (for a gelding anywa). It might benefit your sister to hold on to him.

~Veronica

"The Son Dee Times"
"Sustained"

[Lianne]

-ponybreath- Ha! Thank you for that. Talk about a way to make people eat their words. So glad that little guy is all grown up and doing well!

[Amy]

Ponybreath- I was pretty sure that was the same foal! She had 2 back to back that were almost identical (but one was a filly and one a colt) so I was not sure which of the two that was. I was going to call them yesterday to double check and I forgot.... they also have her foal from last year I think that is by their Andy stallion- another buckskin! He is gorgeous as well.

[PaintBy#s]

What about Nico? ( I think that is the pinto friesan stud?)

And the friesanX Pinto ASB breeders...

Personally I have seen some good turnouts... and the price tags would turn me away... but they sell em, and keep breeding....

Representing RobbyJ and Missy "Misdemeanor" Elliot: NOTE: This is not reflecting my views! I just about spit out my soda when Robby posted this! (hence why its in the sig line)

"When I walk up in the piece, I ain't even gotta speak, I'm a bad muthaf&C#a, godd&&m^t you ain't gotta like me."

[wanderlust]

ponybreath/amy:

I'm not a fan of the crossbreeding of Friesians. Especially with non-similar breed types. End of story. Sorry you aren't happy to hear that, but deal with it. It is *my* opinion. You are welcome to have your own and voice them (which you have done), but you aren't going to convince me any differently on this topic.

I'm glad to hear that the horse turned out well and is successfull in driving. If you read all of my posts, you would have seen that I said that I had no idea whether he would appeal to the driving folks. Apparently he does, and I'm glad he turned out well and has a job. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

~formerly Master Tally~

[Pechvogel]

I have seen one or two Fresian crosses that were~okay. I'm horse shopping with a student right now and we've seen several Fresian crosses (a couple of Fresian/Saddlebred), and every single one of them looked like they were put together by committee. That doen't mean they *couldn't* perform, it just means that it will likely be more difficult for them. I see alot of badly set necks and weak lower backs in the horses.
-Karen

[-ponybreath-]

Actually you said:
"But again, knowing what I know of the parents, and seeing the way that baby is put together, I think that it is going to be an unattractive mish-mash as an adult."
And:
"I'd bet money that the QH/Fresian cross yearling on the website is going to look as bizarre as an adult as it does as a yearling."

Which just plain isn't true. You are entitled to your opinion but those statements are not what has happened in reality. Just for your information, the horse has been ridden too, just not shown. He is as fabulous undersaddle as in harness.
Oh and also:
"Yes, he could make a nice lower level dressage or eventing mount. That is what I meant by "pleasure horse".

Isn't this where the majority of the warmbloods end up anyway (as well as lower level jumpers/hunters)? Why is he suddenly condemned for the same thing? If people shouldn't be breeding for this purpose than maybe 90% of the WB breeders need to hang it up.

[Sakura]

Guys, it is no use http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif... The entire U.S. Equestrian Team could bring home the Gold on Friesian crosses and they would still be second class horses to die-hard Warmblood fans. Just let it go... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[trailblazer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by -ponybreath-:
Isn't this where the majority of the warmbloods end up anyway (as well as lower level jumpers/hunters)? Why is he suddenly condemned for the same thing? If people shouldn't be breeding for this purpose than maybe 90% of the WB breeders need to hang it up.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good point. How many people here have bred horses that went on to compete at the Olympics? No one that I know of. Since the Olympics are the be all and end all of everyone everywhere PERIOD http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif, I guess we should ALL hang it up!

People will undoubtedly say that the Friesian/QH cross was a "fluke." It was just luck that he turned out OK. Uhhh, the same can be said of all horses! A good rule of thumb is don't say anything here that you wouldn't want said about your own breeding program. (because there ARE those of us who WILL say those things about YOU!)

Finally, I don't think anyone minds that wanderlust is not a fan of the Friesian cross. Different strokes for different folks! The great thing about this BB is the diversity we all bring. Where else would fans of so many different breeds be able to converse???

But for anyone to pretend that there is anything objective that makes one breed or cross better than another is just plain silly...

[slc2]

that has nothing to do with it and they aren't second class horses. and it has nothing to do with being a warmblood fan.

it has a LOT to do with flaunting the rules of the parent organizations that worked so hard to develop and improve friesians in europe, and it has a great, great deal to do with simply selling lower quality horses for huge prices to inexperienced people.

there are some nice crosses, sure, but i have yet to see one. judge horses as individuals, not as breeds, but choose breeds developed for the purpose you are going to use the horse for starters.

[wanderlust]

ponybreath, I haven't seen pictures of him as an adult, so I can't say either way. And what you may find attractive, I may not. Or he may be stunning, and I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.

It *still* doesn't mean that I have to like the idea of crossing Friesians with quarter horses. So stop beating a dead horse.

SummitTB, the irony of your statement is that I'm not even a die-hard warmblood fan. I have, by choice, two very well-bred, full TBs. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[trailblazer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wanderlust:
I have, by choice, two very well-bred, full TBs. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uh oh. You do realize that TBs were developed for racing, right??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[wanderlust]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lexiboo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wanderlust:
I have, by choice, two very well-bred, full TBs. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uh oh. You do realize that TBs were developed for racing, right??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, no... I forgot about that! I guess I'll have send them back immediately. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

~formerly Master Tally~

[Sakura]

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[-ponybreath-]

I guess you are right SummitTB. But, that's what is great about it- to each his own.
FWIW, they have about six other Friesian TB or QH crosses. Two bear striking resemblence to their TB dams. The others are pretty nice.

But what do I care- I am a pony person now and forever! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

-Meghan
(formerly Meg!)
visit http://www.starsandstripeswelsh.com -- home of ASP First Premium Stallion -- Tylwyth Mystic Prince

[Beezer]

Frustrated, you (and your SIL) may have a better chance of getting a realistic pricing assessment from a Friesian oriented site/group. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Merlin is cute. But he is not what some/most/many of the posters on this board would consider for their riding discipline, so what we would consider a fair price for him may not be what someone "into" Friesians and Friesian crosses would consider a good price.

I see Friesians and their crosses advertised all the time for many thousands of dollars (ditto Andalusians and their crosses). I think many of them are beautiful animals. But they are not horses **I** would choose for **my** discipline, so, to be blunt, I consider them all overpriced. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif (But, to be honest and even more blunt, as a WB breeder, I consider the prices most other WB breeders hang on their youngsters to be beyond ludicrous. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif )

***** Currently assigned to the mouth-gaping, lip-flapping, head-twisting, wood-chewing, boot-shredding phase of baby greenie ownership! *****

[TBsRgr8]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif GAWD! Okay, so the general consensus amongst the DQs is that this is not the type of horse that they'd generally look at as a mount for themselves, much less consider buying. Therefore, it must not be good enough for anyone else who might consider buying something a little different. (God forbid you throw something "different" at a dressage queen, it's just too hard to cope) I'll dig out my magic wand and see what I can do about changing this critter into an Elite Hannovarian stallion with an exemplary show record and outstanding get. While I'm waving my wand around, perhaps I'll fix my head injury (that the doctors can't seem to figure out and has me sitting here unable to return to work and riding and a whole lot of other fun stuff), fix my gelding's cataracts so that the world isn't such a scarey place, make the property big enough to house all of my "dream" horses (including the 2 that I already own) with an endless supply of feed, hay, and bedding, and self-cleaning stalls, make a new truck and trailer appear.......

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif How many pages to say, "I don't think I like it, it's different?" http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
"I'll take helmet-hair over head trauma any day." --someone who's experienced both

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HorsesAfterHeadTrauma/

[Anne]

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif I would hardly call either Beezer or Wanderlust a dressage queen.

[slc2]

and i am not a warmblood queen. i have ridden quarter horses and thoroughbreds all my life, many years before you even were born. i've ridden hunters, polo ponies, western, gaited, and radonne and pack trips in the mts out west and herded cattle, and a whole lot of other things. i've driven carriage and harness horses, and i admire a good horse of any breed and any type.

a good horse is a good horse, no matter what type or breed. but i don't take a harness horse and try to make it into a riding horse, or a draft horse and try to make it into a race horse. and i don't believe in flaunting the very basis of the registry of a breed, or in congratulating people for selling horses at ten times a reasonable price.

that colt is cute, and he will be very nice for someone. a few thousand is a good price, and as i said, it will be more depending on who and where.

[Amy]

slc- the GERMAN registry (of which there are some stallions around) DOES ALLOW CROSSBREEDING- but only to approved stallions and to mares that ARE NOT half Friesian. As a matter of fact they will even keur them but they are classified as 1/2 Friesian (no 3/4 or 5/8 or anything else is allowed). The DUTCH do not.

Wanderlust- to be honest I don't care what your opinion is- as I am sure you don't care what mine is. I did find it funny (as in HAHA) when you blasted that foal because I was pretty sure it was that colt. But I did not care enough to double check and repost. I did after ponybreathe posted just because once again I thought it was funny. Personally I am not a conformation expert and don't claim to be, but when ANYONE makes such a blanket comment about one picture of a foal of unknown age- well lets just say I put no stock in that period. In one of your posts you also said the conformation was bad- well I doubt he could be competing at the level he is if the conformation was bad. And besided that- for all the GREAT conformation some of the Wb's have why are so many getting hock injections, adequan and legend just to stay sound? (maybe that should be another post?) I know of one older (15+) wb gelding that is 4th level that does not need injections- but he is such an *ss nobody wants to ride him! And when we get called out because he needs work we all moan and draw straws on who has to go!

[slc2]

the friesian is from friesland. the parent organization started there. if some other organization allows crossbreeding that doesn't change the feeling of the original organizers of the breed. which i choose to respect above other organizations; even so the crossbreds are not registered as friesians but specifically as crossbreds.

and i am still in favor of the original rule, even if flaunting it does make someone some pocket money.

there is good and bad individuals in every breed and every registry and every type of horse. don't judge the worst of one against the best of another - even so that still doesn't change the fact that a carriage horse is a carriage horse and a saddle horse is a saddle horse. the conformation is different, and one is not suited to the other.

[Amy]

Maybe this is just my inexperience or just plain stupidity on my part but IMHO there are many horses out there with potential at a variety of sports. For instance I know several horses that could be real jumping stars but their owners choose to keep the horse focused to dressage- where they also do quite well. I know of 2 Friesian stallions that have done quite well in Dressage but are also good at driving- just not campaigned that way for a variety of reasons. So I don't think a carriage horse necessarily has to be completely different conformationally than a dressage horse- unless we are talking Budweiser clydes here.

[trailblazer]

Yup, there ARE versatile horses. You're not stupid... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[wanderlust]

Amy, if you don't care what I think, why the paragraph long diatribe defending the colt, telling me I'm wrong and generalizing that warmbloods all need hock injections? I tried to somewhat diplomatically withdraw from the argument, and you continue to jump all over me, not to mention make a somewhat personal attack (which are against board rules, btw).

Again, stop beating a dead horse. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Now, back to those saddlebred crosses... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

~formerly Master Tally~

[trailblazer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wanderlust:
Now, back to those saddlebred crosses... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Amy]

Wanderlust I don't really see where I attacked you- but if you think I did I am sorry. I was just trying to explain why I thought your post was funny. As for the opinion part- well that was in reference to the 'it's my opinion, deal with it'. I actually don't think many people on here care what someone's opinion is and it does not hurt my feelings in the least that you don't like crosses. Truthfully I am on the fence about many different crosses but in the case of the Friesian crosses I have seen- all have been REALLY nice. Maybe that is because the stallion and mare was chosen carefully- but none were ugly or had poor conformation.

[Sakura]

Cleavland Bays were originally cart/harness horses, but I have seen a number of Cleavland Bay crossbreds competing over fences and in dressage. Sometimes crossing two different types of horse can produce a superior individual...sometimes not. The point is if you don't try it then you will never know.

Where does a fad stop and a demand begin?...If the horses are selling then there is a market for them.

[Erin]

Closed at the original poster's request.