Dumb, dumb, dumb Dumblood

[Sing Mia Song]

I have been a TB girl for as long as I can remember. Sure, I've ridden a few warmbloods, but generally they were at least to the point of being able to canter around a course.

Well, I have my first WB "baby" (he's 5). I don't think he had all that much education until this past year. He was bred by a friend of mine, and represented by her trainer as being able to WTC and jump around a little course of crossrails.

He's cheerful and willing, but to me he seems totally uneducated. Steering is questionable, as are brakes, and getting him to walk a straight line requires a lot of attention.

His retention isn't all that good, either, especially as I'm only able to ride him 2-3 times a week. So, I don't know that he was misrepresented by the trainer or that his brain has completely atrophied (he was turned out for about 3 month before I got him). Either is believeable with him.

At the moment, we are simply working on walk-halt transitions and school figures (walking a figure-8, squares, straight lines over poles on the ground, etc). He has some conformational issues, too, in that he's extremely upright behind and light through his croup and hindquarter. So he really would benefit from some hills, but seeing as he really has no brakes, I'm a little hesitant to ride him in wide-open spaces.

He's a sweet horse, but the fact that he just doesn't seem to "get it" has me a little frustrated in working with him. Am I asking too much because I expect him to act like a TB? To me, he's at the stage of maturity of a late 2yo or early 3yo TB would be--very short attention span, big and googly-eyed, doesn't have his sealegs. He's going to be 6 soon, for crying out loud!

Keep in mind, that I am not the most patient individual, in that I want to skip directly to the "let's canter around a course now" stage. But I know that I need to learn how to restart (or start) this horse properly. I'm just not sure whether he's typical for a WB, or he really does ride the short bus.

[Sing Mia Song]

I have been a TB girl for as long as I can remember. Sure, I've ridden a few warmbloods, but generally they were at least to the point of being able to canter around a course.

Well, I have my first WB "baby" (he's 5). I don't think he had all that much education until this past year. He was bred by a friend of mine, and represented by her trainer as being able to WTC and jump around a little course of crossrails.

He's cheerful and willing, but to me he seems totally uneducated. Steering is questionable, as are brakes, and getting him to walk a straight line requires a lot of attention.

His retention isn't all that good, either, especially as I'm only able to ride him 2-3 times a week. So, I don't know that he was misrepresented by the trainer or that his brain has completely atrophied (he was turned out for about 3 month before I got him). Either is believeable with him.

At the moment, we are simply working on walk-halt transitions and school figures (walking a figure-8, squares, straight lines over poles on the ground, etc). He has some conformational issues, too, in that he's extremely upright behind and light through his croup and hindquarter. So he really would benefit from some hills, but seeing as he really has no brakes, I'm a little hesitant to ride him in wide-open spaces.

He's a sweet horse, but the fact that he just doesn't seem to "get it" has me a little frustrated in working with him. Am I asking too much because I expect him to act like a TB? To me, he's at the stage of maturity of a late 2yo or early 3yo TB would be--very short attention span, big and googly-eyed, doesn't have his sealegs. He's going to be 6 soon, for crying out loud!

Keep in mind, that I am not the most patient individual, in that I want to skip directly to the "let's canter around a course now" stage. But I know that I need to learn how to restart (or start) this horse properly. I'm just not sure whether he's typical for a WB, or he really does ride the short bus.

[Vandy]

SMS, just wanted to let you know, your post cracked me up! I too am primarily a TB person, though I did do some riding for a WB breeder a few years ago, and got to ride some "babies" (ie 5-6 year olds http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). Of course there are some WBs at this age who are already steadily jumping around little courses, but the ones this breeder had were started very slowly and by 5 or 6 had very little concept of bending, balance, or heck even brakes! And I know this particular breeder has made some horses that have gone on to be very successful in jumpers and dressage. Just very different from my previous experience with highly schooled WB teenagers. Based on my limited experience I wouldn't give up on your guy just yet, but I am sure some folks with more WB knowledge will chime in here.

[RugBug]

He sounds very much like my WB. I bought him right as he turned five. His attention span was about 10 seconds, he didn't turn, he didn't stop, he didn't back, he didn't jump. And he spooked at everything imaginable.

Now a year and a half later, the attention span is much longer, we usually have turning (been having some issues with that lately), we stop most of the time, backing is still challenging, but it's there in some form or another, we've got turns on the forehand, and he is bored cantering little courses.

BUT, he is still very green and a lot farther behind than it seems most TB's are at 6. We've gone very slowly with him, which he seems to need, but he seems to be about a 4 yr old in TB years.

Tell yourself to remain patient, go slowly and you'll end up with a nice horse. You rarely see a horse ruined from proceeding slowly, but you can't say the same about the opposite.

[xTexHunterx]

I too, am a TB person. I love their responsiveness and their "antics." I had my first long-term relationship with a 9 year old warmblood this past spring, and I'm convinced that she was still a "baby" at 9 http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif She still can't walk in a straight line without constant fixing, and her attitude is nothing like the TBs that I've grown up around and love!

I really do think they mature much slower than the thoroughbreds -- I mean, look at what they were bred to do. TBs have to mature faster because they race at such a young age. Give your guy some patience and help him through his stupid age! Going slow will only help you guys in the future http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Equuleus]

FYI: Wmblds are notorius for maturing much later than TBs. Like 6-7 years old.

Most TBs start out at the track. Therefore, they are ridden and handled starting roughly at 2 years of age. Most people do not start their Wmbld babies until they are 3.5-4 years of age. They simply are NOT done growing until later on.

I think your expectations are unrealistic. they don't just come out of the field perfect. You have to make them. Perhaps you are taking the wrong approach?? You cannot compare apples to oranges.

If they are so dumb, why do people pay so much money for them vs TBs? Did you not ride the horse before you bought him??

[EStieg12]

I am the opposite. I bought a 3 1/2 year old warmblood last year and he has come along FABULOUSLY. We have not even started working on lead changes yet but he is so balanced he will just do them. He just did his first jumping show and he got his changes and everything!
He has been SO easy compared to when we started my junior hunter who was an 8 year old TB. That one had such a hard mouth we would have to run him into the wall to stop and terrible to teach lead changes.
My WB has so much personality and has been so easy! I am not trying to brag - I just don't think that the "lazy dumb WB" stigma is not exactly right. I am now getting another 3 year old so I will be sure to let you know if I am wrong. But compared to my TB's - my WB has been a saint!!

[Fairview Horse Center]

Remember that warmbloods are bred to be very flexible. That means you can't pull on the right rein, and expect them to turn right. If you do, they will just flex the neck, (think extremely rubbery) and fall out thru their outside shoulder. You have to ride both sides of their bodies/necks. My warmbloods are very easy to start, but HUGE problems are made when they "overbend" in the neck, and are not "in front of the leg".

My suggestion, is to take the horse to the person that had him going before you got him, and watch them ride your horse. Then you will see if it is the horse, or if you need to adjust your riding to get the same results.

[Merry]

Finally, a topic I feel justified in posting my expertise! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I rode TB's all my life. My parents even bred TB's for the local Calif. tracks. I'd break them out as 2 yr. olds. Bottom line: Cakewalk City.

Then we got into breeding/raising/starting warmbloods. Talk about a different kettle of fish! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Warmbloods IN GENERAL react very slowly to any new instructions. So it's: repeat the lesson, repeat the lesson, repeat the lesson, repeat the freakin' lesson until suddenly the lightbulb flashes on and they have it. What's nice, though, is that once they "have it" they don't forget, and they usually lack the mental capacity to come up with clever evasive bad habits.

Comparison case in point: It has taken me 3 years to get my premium status, well-bred WB, Barbie, to be a dependable ammy hunter who knows and accepts her job in the showring. There was one whole show season where she couldn't separate a hack class from a hunter class. So we'd do our opening circle, la-tee-da, and she'd amble down to the first fence brain dead, I guess thinking we were in a very small under saddle class. Then she'd be stunned to find herself at the base of a jump and kneel onto it! Her nickname became, "The Incredible Kneeling Cow." Needless to say, we eventually fixed that problem. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

On the other hand, my sister's CANTER horse, which she got straight off the track last October, took one look at crossrails and tiny gymnastics and went, "My, how fascinating this is!" It's now one year later and he cruises around the adult long stirrup/green rider division and wins prizes with her.

So there ya' go. Your horse is a typical warmblood.

(As an aside, I happen to be a very patient, long suffering sort of person. I used to teach kindergarten and first grade, so that makes me highly qualified to deal with warmbloods). http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[monstrpony]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Merry:

(As an aside, I happen to be a very patient, long suffering sort of person. I used to teach kindergarten and first grade, so that makes me highly qualified to deal with warmbloods). http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I was in a clinic last weekend with a rider on a 5 y.o. warmblood colt. The clinician said he was physically a 5 y.o., but menatlly still...about a yearling.

[Horsaholic]

Another TB person here, also starting the two year olds on the track for my Dad I totally agree.. My WB is now 6 and I had honestly asked my vet at one point if maybe he was mentally disabled last year? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif All I can say is that you definatley need lots of tolerance and patience!http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif They take a while to mature in the brain and sometimes the body and brain don't connect like a tb's would. Your horse sounds perfectly normal for a WB! Sit back, get comfortable and try to enjoy the slow ride of progress...http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Tiramit]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gargamel:

If they are so dumb, why do people pay so much money for them vs TBs? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now that's a question I've been asking myself for years! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Guess it mostly falls in the "status" catagory, but hey, what do I know? I'm just a mostly TB rider who has womped more than enough warmbloods in the ring. Older ones, at that! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

SMS, your experience sounds oh-so-familiar to my own warmblood rides. Just remind yourself that there's a good horse in there somewhere, he just needs time to grow up and become a star.

And if that doesn't work out, sell him at an inflated price and buy yourself a couple of great TBs!

[Lucassb]

I always had TB's too (and loved them) but my now-6 yr old WB is a LOT easier to ride.

He is accepting of whatever he is presented with, he tries hard, he is reaaaaaalllllly quiet and will jump anything from anywhere. He has happily carted my adult amateur butt over countless fences my TB would have tossed me into (and rightfully so, but that's not the point.) I will never go back!

In fairness, I should note that I find he gets a LOT smarter if I carry a stick. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Carol Ames]

I think it esepends very much on the hie ndividual; http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif It has been my rxperience,that,

since WBs tend to be nturally more balanced thathey move along faster,ie., the first oneI ever owned was a 4yo dutchWb mare , not muchtolook at, but a heart ofgold., by the the ime shegot to o me at 4,she had already shown on he"A"circuiit , childrens' hunter., and, went on to event , fox hunt, and pony club.her natural balance got her out of precarious siuations her riders sometimes put her into, http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif ., also her tendenccy to stop, and,think before moving, think, rather ththan "fl"flee" I would go back to othe http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif ve rybeginng, teach him to folow his nose at a"walk", then ride a 12 point circle in hesamedirection, along with your school figures.

[monalisa]

It is a fact that most WBs mature later than TBs. My WB mare "got it" around 5 and she is a joy to ride and show now. My other WB is not quite as smart as the mare, but he got it too later in life. You do have to be patient with these. But they have such an even disposition that many TBs do not have. I would not own anything else other than a WB. But I realize many prefer the TB.

[mygenie]

It is funny/irritating to me that a horse with a slower reaction time is so quickly described as "dumb". I have a WB youngster. Yes he has a slower reaction time, but he surely catches on, and once he does he does not forget. He does not spook at a single thing (unless it is something outrageous.) I can guarantee that when the time comes to go to a show he will be so easygoing about it because that is just how he is.
I think you have to accept the fact that WB's are different than TB's, and treat them accordinlgy. In my eyes they are both great animals in their own right. If the WB mentality does not suit you, then go with the TB. If you can muster up the patience to work with your guy, it may be quite a rewarding experience. Good Luck.

[RugBug]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gargamel:
If they are so dumb, why do people pay so much money for them vs TBs? Did you not ride the horse before you bought him?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Eh, I think most of us know they aren't really dumb...they just seem so after dealing with TB's.

MY WB is actually pretty smart. I have to be careful how I approach things because one not-completely-thought-out-turns-out-to-be-wrong experience will stick with him for a LONG time (like the time I was working on loading and let him back off after taking a bite of grain. Relatively quickly I had a horse that would happily load on the trailer...until he'd taken one bite of food and then he'd try to back off. I had to go back and work on staying still wherever I told him to stop, be it halfway on, all the way on, etc).

I personally chose this warmblood for his temperament. He's pretty senstive, but whereas a lot of TB's will take off when scared, my horse takes about three strides and decides it's too much effort. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif I like that quality in a horse. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[mygenie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I personally chose this warmblood for his temperament. He's pretty senstive, but whereas a lot of TB's will take off when scared, my horse takes about three strides and decides it's too much effort. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif I like that quality in a horse. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which, if you think about it, is not dumb, he is conserving ENERGY!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[JB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Merry:
What's nice, though, is that once they "have it" they don't forget, and they usually lack the mental capacity to come up with clever evasive bad habits.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Merry, I love ya and all, seeing as how Barbie and Rio are related (Westie, right?) but I gotta take exception to this http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I think some people WAY under-estimate what's going on in their often-large-heads. I actually believe their minds are super-busy, just not necessarily thinking about what we think they are or expect them to be. I believe they often don't feel we are up to their standards, think they know more than we do, and once we teach them something (or thought we did) they think they know it all and will either try to play that game the way THEY thought you intended it to be played, or will offer it up every time they think you asked for it, whether you did or not. If you've got one though who doesn't respect you, I think they get VERY busy coming up with ways to see how they can turn things around to their advantage.

Sing Mia Song - you'll just have to learn to out-persist him! With my TB I didn't have to ask for something for long, though I did have to make sure I was asking for it correctly or he'd get really frustrated because he really wanted to do things right and would try very hard. With my WB I have to ask over and over and over and over, correctly, consistently, fairly, and with some challenge. He gets distracted when I don't keep his mind busy and that's when we get into trouble. Try putting some obstacle courses up to give him a purpose to going straight, to making a turn, to stopping, etc. He's probably thinking "WHY do I have to walk straight, WHY do I have to stop here, WHY do I have to turn there, WHY WHY WHY?" Make it have meaning for him http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Lilac]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gargamel:
If they are so dumb, why do people pay so much money for them vs TBs? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WBs cost more because, as described in most of the posts here, WBs generally require more years of training to make them into the dependable souls that any Annie Ammy can win on. And all those years of training required feeding, too, in larger amounts than TBs. Not to mention vet bills, as bigger horses tend to have more soundness issues than TBs. The costs add up, and WB purchase prices reflect it.

[wendy]

well, really, are you sure you WANT your horse to be smart? most of us want dependable, predictable horses that will forgive the occasional riding mistakes. Smart is actually a handicap. Most ponies and arabs are MUCH smarter than most other horses, and they are notoriously difficult to ride. I remember riding this welsh pony cross, incredibly smart. He got bored easily, and then he'd make up games to entertain himself. Any mistake or weakness in your riding he'd immediately notice, remember, and exploit. So smart is not necessarily good.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I have found the warmbloods to be VERY easy to "get it". Within 45 days of being started to be tacked/lunged, they w/t/c and jump around an 18" course of fences at the trot, and maybe canter a few. EVERY SINGLE ONE. But like I said, you have to ride them, they don't just do it for you. A TB may just "follow his nose", but a warmblood is TRAINABLE, so they actually LISTEN and DO what you tell them, even if that is not what you meant.

The LAST thing I want as a rider is a horse that will "follow his nose". I want a horse that listens to my AIDS, and does what my body is asking, not what he thinks I am asking IN SPITE of my aids. I don't want them to overrule my aids. If I pull on the inside rein, they will just flex their neck, and keep going thru the rein I have left open. If I pull on the inside rein, and leave the outside "open" then I AM telling him to go thru that shoulder. That is CORRECT. Unfortunately, if you ask them to go in that unbalanced position, they will either take you to the fence, and plant your knee into the rail, or get mad at being asked to go unblanaced. It is up to me as a rider to ride both sides of their body - forever.

[Merry]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JB:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Merry:
What's nice, though, is that once they "have it" they don't forget, and they usually lack the mental capacity to come up with clever evasive bad habits.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Merry, I love ya and all, seeing as how Barbie and Rio are related (Westie, right?) but I gotta take exception to this. I think some people WAY under-estimate what's going on in their often-large-heads. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, you may totally be on to something! This may explain why Barbie (who is indeed by West Coast) is able to immediately identify PRECISELY where the out gate is in every one of her hunter classes. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[JB]

hehe, you betcha! She has conducted a surveillance of the grounds that would put a Navy Seal to shame before she was totally off the trailer. As she/they go around u/s, if they are not kept TOTALLY busy mentally they look at everything and go "hmmm, that could be handy, hmmm, gotta remember that bush, hmmmm gonna keep my eye on that pony 'cause you just never know...." http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Lilac]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:Unfortunately, if you ask them to go in that unbalanced position, they will either take you to the fence, and plant your knee into the rail, or get mad at being asked to go unblanaced. It is up to me as a rider to ride both sides of their body - forever. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Micromanaging a horse's every step and carriage is fine for dressage, but a horse that jumps must learn some degree of self-carriage and self-preservation. Inability to override a rider's cues and apply a horse's own judgment can lead to spectacular crashes, further contributing to some horses' "dumb" reputation.

[Irish Ei's]

Oh, Lordy, I'm so confused...just made the typical graduation (OH&gt;TB&gt;WB) I've not spent alot of saddletime on any WB. What to expect from a 10 yr old Westie who's winning AA rated Eq Divisions???? Feels like the safest,most comfy thing I ever sat on, never changes his attitude and now I feel like I might actually enjoy jumping....

[2ndyrgal]

Hmm, I have a 5 yr old Perch/Tb cross from Canada. He has (I hope) finally stopped growing. Spooks at nothing, has a mouth like spun silk, and is WAY too smart for everything. Will jump anything (from a trot) is straight and, as long as you"ride both sides" bends like he's a fourth level dressage horse. Has great breaks, our only problem so far is that he wears a 58" girth (really hard to find) and his canter in an arena is akward, though out in the field it is quite amazing. He has had only sporadic riding (I hesitate to even call it training) over the last year and had not been backed when I got him. I was told he was green broke, so just threw tack on him and jumped on. I quickly found out he wasn't, not because of what he did, but because of what he didn't do. Had I done that with an unbroken Tb I can only imagine what the next few minutes would have been like. I'm a Thoroughbred lover from way back, and have gotten to the point where I would rather kick one on that hold one back. He is not drafty at all, just looks like a giant thoroughbred (Think "rock hard ten" from the derby) You just have to be able to think ahead with them, with the Thoroughbreds, even when you get good, you're always a heartbeat behind. Love my big guy, not even green broke, he's foxhunted and been to his first show. No longeing, no "slow me down" no bit change. Gotta love it. Be patient, it will be worth it.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I have not seen them NOT be able to jump on their own, but steering -- they are "loose in the neck and shoulders". Why would anyone want a horse to learn to "tune out their aids"? They do have a very good sense of self-preservation, as evidenced by their eventual refusal to go forward in that unbalanced position. It is not that hard to learn to steer correctly.

MY West Coast Oliver (aka Follow Me West) (http://hometown.aol.com/fairviewhorsectr/images/whoops%20at%20devon%202001.jpg) is VERY smart, but not a "reactor". He SOOOO wants to please, but has a very calm, quiet brain, and you may not see the instant reaction. EXAMPLE: When zapped by an electric fence, you may not know he even hit it, as he will not jump. HOWEVER, if you look closely, you will see that his neck is now perfectly 1 inch above the wire, and he WILL NOT touch it again. What a solid, easy going, super boy! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif and BTW, he was tacked/lunged/broke/w/t/c and trotting 18" jumps, working 25 minutes a day for 7 days http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Lilac]

I'm not sure where Fairview's "tune out their aids" came from -- I don't think anyone in this thread said that's what warmbloods do. Same with TBs "following their noses."

As for a horse's "refusal to go forward in an unbalanced position," balking's not a sign of intelligence or self-preservation, but rather of laziness, belligerence, or lack of athletic ability. The self-preservation that counts is avoiding danger, not "unbalance."

Consider a horse asked to turn too tightly in a jump-off, who ends up at too awkward an angle and/or distance to safely make it over the jump. The rider's aids may well be sending the horse forward, "riding both sides," whatever, but the horse just can't make it over the jump. That's when I'd be grateful for a horse that overrides the rider's cues, and refuses honestly instead of landing in the middle of the jump.

So what's impressive is not whether you start horses over tiny jumps when they are barely broke, but how a horse later navigates bigger challenges. And I'd prefer a horse that IS bothered by getting zapped by an electric wire -- they probably move off the rider's leg, spur and whip more readily, too.

[Fairview Horse Center]

"tuning out the aids" would be when horses stiffly keep their bodies in line, rather than flexing when someone rides/pulls on just the inside rein to turn. You need to support (or block to keep the movement from escaping thru) the outside shoulder.

I would NEVER fault a horse for balking when being ridden really poorly. Sooner or later, they will begin to get upset/lose their trust in the rider that is constantly telling them to go in an unbalanced way. That is not lazy, but frustration.

The illustration about the tight turn to a jump is exactly what I am talking about. You would never expect a horse to be able to jump if their nose was cranked around to one side by a rider that was just hauling on the inside rein. Warmbloods WILL stop (balk?) if they are not able to jump from that position. Why should they have to put up with it on the flat?

My friend that events and breeds mostly TBs, says it takes a lot less leg on my "non-reacting" Hanoverian then on her TBs. WHY? because he REALLY wants to please, and NEVER wants to be punished (squeezed/kicked) again. He learns quickly what to do to make his rider happy. He may not "over react" when you tap with the whip, but you won't need to use it again, as the light leg will give you the forward you want. And he WILL remember. He may be physically strong, but he has a tender heart.

[Flash44]

I hear you, Sing! Riding a green warmblood v. TB is like driving Fred Flinstone's car v. a Formula I. I much prefer a horse I don't have to pick up and carry around with me. Give me a point and shoot TB anyday, I really don't want to work THAT hard. I'm pretty happy with getting a canter then sitting still until the course ends. You all can do the real riding.

[Tiffany01]

I heared that WBs are a LOT calmer then TBs and i somtimes want a wb but my trainer is like why do u want a dummy (sorr guys) when u can have a challage??

[Bugs-n-Frodo]

Please don't expect a TB to be a WB or a WB to be a TB. I love both, and the WB breed that I love, happens to be a controversial one at that. It stinks to hear generalizations, it stinks for everyone. I LOVE TBs. I have a retired TB mare. She was bright, forward, quick minded, forgiving and brave when I was riding her. She was awesome. I also have a Anglo Trakehner gelding. He is wonderfully easy to train. He is also quick minded, doesn't get upset over new things, and is smart as a whip. I will have to get back to you as far as what he is like under saddle, give me about a year and a half. I truely expect him to be a breeze to start. He is very willing, forgiving and quiet, and he is only a year and a half. I really do think a lot of it has to do with how they are brought up, same with kids. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif Personally, I don't believe in turning them out until they are 3 and then wisking them in from the pasture one day to begin training. I have been VERY hands on with Frodo and every bit of it has been rewarding. And, you know what?
If I ask him to do something new, when he does it, I tell him he is a good boy, he doesn't forget that lesson... ever.

Keep in mind, as others have already said, that WBs mature later than TBs, both physically and mentally. I understand what you are saying about your WB not being able to walk in a straight line. I once rode a 3 1/2 year old Dutch WB who wold practally fall on his knees when walking down a small hill. I was flabbergasted. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif Looking back, it was evident that this guys needed more time to mature, his baby brain was not making the connections. A few years later, I saw him again and he was a different horse. He just need time to mature, he had very little attention span at 3 1/2, that did not make him dumb.

[davidgud - equestrian jihad]

Why did the Germans ride Hannoverians to War??


So they'd be good and bloody mad when they got there!!

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[buschkn]

OH WOW! Them's are fightin' words! Now I have ridden my fair share of both and I have to say I MUCH prefer WBs in general. TBs can be a little overly sensitive and if you ask me, stupid as well. How many people have seen a TB just "check out" and go ape-sh** over virtually nothing? Countless. The WB tried to figure it out, the TB tries to run through it. If you push a WB too fast before he understand what you are asking, he will balk and try and understand, a TB will just keep running forward until finally he gets it right and you let up on him. I want a horse who can figure things out, not one that is just reactionary to it's surroundings. Like if I have to pick someone to build me an airplane, I'd pick the guy who understands the physics of it all even if it takes him a little longer to get the job done, than the guy who's simply been shown which pieces to weld together. Kapisch?

I think it's hilarious that TB people think WBs are dumb. There are smarties and dummies of each.

I also disagree that the reason WBs cost more is b/c of longer training times and higher vet bills. Bigger well built horses with good feet have fewer problems than spindly little TB's with tiny feet. They cost more b/c they are more costly to breed and also to buy as babies. Good ones anyway. You can't just go to the local track and buy one for $500.

As for the WB being dumb and slow and easy, and just packing Ammy's around- how many TB's, and I mean FULL TB's, did you guys see in the Olympics this year? Maybe those people are all just looking for dumb slow packers? Hmmm...

As for the starter of the thread, you should definitely give your horse some time, it will be worth it in the end for sure. I bought my BIG WB a little over a year ago and had a lot of then same problems- no brake, no steering, no bending, etc. Now a year later, with very inconsistent work, he is a star. A complete joy to ride and learning more every day. He learned his changes in one day. And he DOESN'T forget, even when I can't ride for a while. Give him a chance and I think you'll be converted! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[warefox]

I have always ridden TB's and love them. But just this year I have become completely infatuated with my "baby" DWB, coming six in the spring. He is requiring my complete attention and patience as his brain is generally somewhere other than with me. The frustration! But when he gets it right, when I do keep his interest, his sheer talent and ability make it so worthwhile. He is making me a better rider every single day by making me do it RIGHT. I completely sympathize with the OP; I am determined to stick it out with my guy and I hope she does too.

[Equuleus]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by buschkn:
OH WOW! Them's are fightin' words! Now I have ridden my fair share of both and I have to say I MUCH prefer WBs in general. TBs can be a little overly sensitive and if you ask me, stupid as well. How many people have seen a TB just "check out" and go ape-sh** over virtually nothing? Countless. The WB tried to figure it out, the TB tries to run through it. If you push a WB too fast before he understand what you are asking, he will balk and try and understand, a TB will just keep running forward until finally he gets it right and you let up on him. I want a horse who can figure things out, not one that is just reactionary to it's surroundings. Like if I have to pick someone to build me an airplane, I'd pick the guy who understands the physics of it all even if it takes him a little longer to get the job done, than the guy who's simply been shown which pieces to weld together. Kapisch?

I think it's hilarious that TB people think WBs are dumb. There are smarties and dummies of each.

I also disagree that the reason WBs cost more is b/c of longer training times and higher vet bills. Bigger well built horses with good feet have fewer problems than spindly little TB's with tiny feet. They cost more b/c they are more costly to breed and also to buy as babies. Good ones anyway. You can't just go to the local track and buy one for $500.

As for the WB being dumb and slow and easy, and just packing Ammy's around- how many TB's, and I mean FULL TB's, did you guys see in the Olympics this year? Maybe those people are all just looking for dumb slow packers? Hmmm...

As for the starter of the thread, you should definitely give your horse some time, it will be worth it in the end for sure. I bought my BIG WB a little over a year ago and had a lot of then same problems- no brake, no steering, no bending, etc. Now a year later, with very inconsistent work, he is a star. A complete joy to ride and learning more every day. He learned his changes in one day. And he DOESN'T forget, even when I can't ride for a while. Give him a chance and I think you'll be converted! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said.

[SBT]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by davidgud - equestrian jihad:
_Why did the Germans ride Hannoverians to War??_


_So they'd be good and bloody mad when they got there!!_

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or, as George Morris put it in one of his clinics last year, "The Germans invented dressage because they couldn't get their horses out of the barn." http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Love it. But then, I'm a TB girl through and through.

"Little feet" and "spindly legs?" Puh-leeze. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Do you really think it's easier for a 1400 lb. WB to pound his big feet/legs over fences, than it is for a 1000 lb. TB to pound his "little" ones? By this logic, all small ponies would be dead lame. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif IME, if a TB can come off the racetrack with 4 good legs/feet, jumping is never going to bother him...regardless of his bone structure. And for the record, my TB wears LARGE boots and takes a size 2 shoe. "Spindly and little" he ain't. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[CanadianGolden]

The several WBs I know and own are brilliant.

The TBs I have interacted with have been stupid, flighty, and generally difficult to handle and deal with because they're always about to run off because of something dumb.

I much prefer my smart, sensible WBs.

[Merry]

I can see it now: the COTH BB divided up into blue posters and red posters, depending on whether you prefer a warmblood or a Thoroughbred! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Of course some sweeping generalizations about WB's vs. TB's have been made. It's sort of like comparing dressage queens to hunter princesses. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

I appreciate the fire and spirit of the TB. I'm a thin, small boned woman and I like the sensitive responsiveness of a TB. I grew up riding nothing but hot horses. However, now that I'm in my "golden years" I actually prefer riding and competing a warmblood. While in my experience it takes a little longer to acheive my goals with a warmblood, in the end it's worth the time and effort. But like I said before, I'm the very patient sort, so it doesn't bother me. Plus, I live for that lofty WB trot in my equitation classes!

[Bugs-n-Frodo]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Merry:
I can see it now: the COTH BB divided up into blue posters and red posters, depending on whether you prefer a warmblood or a Thoroughbred! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, if that were to happen, can I be purple? I love both TBs and WBs and purple is my favorite color.

Seriously, why quibble over this? Some of you prefer TBs, some WBs, we are all different, but that doesn't make one better than the other. This Thread (http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=6656094911&f=5986094911&m=504209444&p=2) was posted a few days ago in the dressage forum. It was a good discussion and there are some good points in there. I am not saying it has everything to do with this thread, but, let's just say, my perfect horse is not your perfect horse. No matter whether it is TB or WB or MULE!

[Esquire]

OK, this is not me saying this, but my "trainer" says if you are not a patient person, buy a tennis racket? If the horse has not been in consistent work than it is already behind. With any horse, regardless of breeding, you need to take whatever time is necessary to properly develop it in a way that is beneficial to the both of you. Just stick with your plan and stop looking for it, one day you will wake up and it will be there. If you can get someone to help you make this a smoother and faster transition though, you need to get someone to help you ride it at least 5 days a week. Your horse needs a regular program, 2 days a week only teases him in terms of "teaching" him anything.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Merry
I have to object to your color choice, I'm just not a purple person http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif but I DO like both, and actually have found them VERY similar to work with. The modern warmbloods are extremely like good TBs.

I have also seen the steering issues with both, but the "goeyness" (is that a word?) of the TB, covers up a lot of steering issues. The more forward they are, the less "perfect" the steering needs to be.

[Illyria]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
The more forward they are, the less "perfect" the steering needs to be. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That applies to all (green) horses it seems. The more forward they go, the easier it is to keep them straight, even really wiggly warmbloods...that's what mine learn first, anyway: forward and straightness, mostly at the trot.

[Vandy]

SMS may remember my old WB "Roquefort", who my trainer liked to say was "no rocket scientist". I rode him in the Eq years ago - this will tell you how long ago: he was often the only WB in a Medal class! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif I loved him, and he was truly a pleasure to ride. He had a huge, rhythmic stride and was very calm and mellow - stereotypical WB. However, I never felt he had the heart or the intelligence of a good TB. Ironic that I sometimes felt like the only rider at the shows on a WB (and often got comments from judges like "too Dressage-y" and "Clunky horse") and now I am showing TBs in WB-domintated hunter ring. Guess I'm just destined to be hopelessly behind/ahead of the times, depending how you look at it.

I think (and hope!) there will always be warmblood people and TB people, with a healthy mix of those who like the crosses. I personally hope the pendulum will swing the other way in the future, and the forward, brilliant TB Hunter trip will be able to win against the slow, rollicking WB one, but that's another can of worms...

[nightsong]

Merry, sounds like your horse is not purple, he's just GREEN!!! I think the folks who have GOOD warmbloods at a young age just have ones at the high end of the age/maturity spectrum, and you have one of those old slow bloomers, who abound in the breed, PLUS have the DISADVANTAGE of maturing slowly PHYSICALLY also, giving htem problems balancing with the new body they have practically every week. Jmho...

[PineHillFarm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Warmbloods IN GENERAL react very slowly to any new instructions. So it's: repeat the lesson, repeat the lesson, repeat the lesson, _repeat the freakin' lesson_ until suddenly the lightbulb flashes on and they have it. What's nice, though, is that once they "have it" they don't forget, and they usually lack the mental capacity to come up with clever evasive bad habits.

So there ya' go. Your horse is a typical warmblood.

: <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I absolutely agree!

[ser42]

Sounds like I have a typical WB too- but he is SMART and OPINIONATED. But he is only 4 1/2, a noodle at the walk (straight line? What's that?), and very late to mature physically- he's still growing into himself.

Take it slow- better to let him go at his own pace than rush him and have issues down the road. In the end, it will really pay off.

Good luck!

[Lord Helpus]

Waaaaaaaaa.... This thread may be confirming my growing fears.

I don't want Petey to ride the short bus!!!!!!!

But I have noticed that he is the only horse I have ever owned who has chosen to exculsively poop in the exact same part of his stall that he sleeps in. I have stopped calling him Petey Puppy and have started calling him Petey Poopy.

Not so smart he isn't.

I may have owned TB's for too many years to learn to live with a horse who lies in his own manure.

Is there a horsey IQ test I can give him to see how many french fries he's got in his happy meal?

[RioTex]

LH, in my experience the short bus riders are not as difficult to train as the rocket scientists, IF they are compliant short busers. The dull, resistant ones on the other hand...

[Tiramit]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by davidgud - equestrian jihad:
_Why did the Germans ride Hannoverians to War??_


_So they'd be good and bloody mad when they got there!!_

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif May I use that one? I have some friends who soooooo need to hear that joke! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Tiramit]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by buschkn:

As for the WB being dumb and slow and easy, and just packing Ammy's around- how many TB's, and I mean FULL TB's, did you guys see in the Olympics this year? Maybe those people are all just looking for dumb slow packers? Hmmm...
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now that's just a silly comment. Fads and trends have quite an influence on the horse world, including what breeds of horses people ride. It wasn't too long ago when the Olympics were populated by quite a few TB's, including &lt;gasp&gt; the medal winners. Our only individual gold medals have been on TB's.

Something to ponder along that same train of thought is the success of the USET in international competition. Looking specifically at the Olympics, what breed of horse has carried the U.S. to more victories? I dare say it wasn't an imported breed.

Really this argument is like Merry said, a matter of taste and rider, NOT horse, suitability. There are many kinds of riders out there, and not all are able to ride lighter, hotter, and yes, very intelligent horses.

Much like the automatic release and everyone showing at the 3'6" level, the TB has been pushed aside in favor of an equine model that can take abuse and perform for less skilled riders. Obviously there are excellent warmblood horses who carry our top riders to glory, but when you really look at the show world as a whole, warmbloods have become popular because of a combination of the status symbol of importing a horse and the fact that a slower, thicker horse can be safer for a new ammie rider. It's not because TB's are less suited or less capable, it's that they often require a more skilled rider. Not as good for business when you ahve a barn full of returning adult riders and their young kids.

And as for the comments of warmblood breeding programs costing more than TB's, have you seen the stallion prices coming out of Kentucky? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[buschkn]

posted Nov. 12, 2004 11:11 AM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by buschkn:

As for the WB being dumb and slow and easy, and just packing Ammy's around- how many TB's, and I mean FULL TB's, did you guys see in the Olympics this year? Maybe those people are all just looking for dumb slow packers? Hmmm...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Now that's just a silly comment. Fads and trends have quite an influence on the horse world, including what breeds of horses people ride. It wasn't too long ago when the Olympics were populated by quite a few TB's, including &lt;gasp&gt; the medal winners. Our only individual gold medals have been on TB's.

Actually, yes, I have seen the TB stud prices coming out of KY- I LIVE about 10 minutes from Keeneland. But you can bet your sweet bippy that just b/c a horse bred to race with a $300K stud fee who ends up as a failure at the track, it's still going to sell CHEAP as a non-racing horse. I've seen Storm Cat babies ($500K stud fee) for sale as sport horse prospects for &lt;$5K.

And I disagree that my comment about the Olympics is "silly" as you say. People who go to the Olympics are not looking to follow trends, they are looking to make money and win gold medals. THAT is not a fad. I am not suggesting that the TB is a bad horse or doesn't have it's place, I think they are amazing athletes. But the idea that the WB is stupid slow and untalented is unwarranted. I firmly believe there are more WBs that are good movers and exceptional jumpers, percentage wise, than there are TBs. And I don't give a rat's a$$ if it's hard or easy to ride- I'll ride anything.

Just please stop implying that the only people who would be foolish enough to choose a WB over a TB are crap riders who are lazy weekend warriors just looking to follow a trend and win ribbons at horsey shows.

[Equuleus]

Oh lord, now not only are TBs smarter but people that ride warmbloods are less skilled riders..... Give me a break!!! I think some people are just trying to make themselves feel better.

This is a form of prejudice if I ever saw one. I don't know how some of you can can steroetype a whole breed of horse based upon one or two OR EVEN 3 individuals. It is almost humerous and I hope it doesn't carry over into your personal life.

It is fine to like one or the other and state that but why trash the other??

[RugBug]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lord Helpus:
I don't want Petey to ride the short bus!!!!!!!

But I have noticed that he is the only horse I have ever owned who has chosen to exculsively poop in the exact same part of his stall that he sleeps in. I have stopped calling him Petey Puppy and have started calling him Petey Poopy.

Is there a horsey IQ test I can give him to see how many french fries he's got in his happy meal? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sure his happy meal has the full complement of fries. He just doesn't want you to know. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

WB's are smart enough to convince you they ride the short bus so you go easy on them. In reality, there's just as many WB's on the long bus with the TB's as there are TB's on the short bus with the WB's.

Show poops in his feed bucket...Every.Stinking. Day. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Why? I can only surmise he does it to mark his bucket as his own. I find the habit stupid and gross. I'm sure Show sees it differently. He probably tells all his friends how he not only gets to make sure no one uses his bucket, but how he also gets some entertaining target practice in. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

IMO, warmbloods are more individuals than TB's. They won't play the game because you tell them to, they play because you convince them it's the best way. I personally think that's a pretty smart way to live. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif A different kind of smart than a TB, but smarts nonetheless.

[RugBug]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by buschkn:
I firmly believe there are more WBs that are good movers and exceptional jumpers, percentage wise, than there are TBs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Could this be because most TB's are bred to run while most WB's are being bred as sporthorses? It really is hard to compare the two because there breeding programs have such different goals. A TB that's a good mover and exceptional jumper is possibly the reject of the racing program. The same cannot be said about the WB's...they are the goal.

[Fairview Horse Center]

LH, I hope I don't have to judge a horse's intelligence by if they poop where they sleep http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I have been boarding horses for about 28 years, a VERY large portion of TBs. And most of them are PIGS - I know, I do the stall cleaning. RARELY do I ever get one that does NOT poop where it sleeps. That goes for ALL breeds. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

BTW, only once in all of those years have I gotten a "full house". That is what an owner described to me that she found in her stall one morning - Both water buckets AND the feed bucket - full of POOP. Yep! It was a FULL TB http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

[Sing Mia Song]

Okay, it looks like I stirred up a hornet's nest!

I wasn't trying to make a generalization about all warmbloods (although I've certainly heard the "dumbblood" line more than once. I just was wondering whether Mr. Shortbus was typical.

Gargamel asked whether I'd ridden him before I bought him, and the answer is no...because I didn't buy him. My friend was in a tight financial space and she gave him to me outright.

To his credit, he's a very sweet, willing horse. And admittedly I can't ride him as often as I would like to be able to at this stage of the game.

But he's dumb in Horse Sociology 101, too. Every single day that he's been here, he's walked up to Stanley wih his ears pricked and a "Hi, there!" expression. Every single day, Stanley has swung his neck around and chomped him.

If you knew the neighborhood bully was waiting to knock your block off at the bus stop every morning, would you present yourself daily in front of him for his boxing pleasure?

It's things like this that make me roll my eyes and say, "Oy, vey!"

[Tiramit]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gargamel:
Oh lord, now not only are TBs smarter but people that ride warmbloods are less skilled riders..... Give me a break!!! I think some people are just trying to make themselves feel better.

This is a form of prejudice if I ever saw one. I don't know how some of you can can steroetype a whole breed of horse based upon one or two OR EVEN 3 individuals. It is almost humerous and I hope it doesn't carry over into your personal life.

It is fine to like one or the other and state that but why trash the other?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you had read for comprehension, you'd have noticed that I also said there are excellent warmbloods competing with our top (obviously highly skilled) riders. How is that trashing warmbloods?

And my comments weren't meant to be derogatory toward the type of horse. But it's true, they are a style of horse that seems to suit ammies well BECAUSE they aren't as high spirited as TBs. There isn't anything wrong with that, is there? And right now there are so many people riding in the amateur classes that there are plenty of trainers on the hunt for suitable horses. Voila, enter the warmblood. And while those trainers are looking for ammie horses, they might as well see what else is in the sale barn that they could ride.... Don't you see a the development of a fad?

And where exactly did we all say that our experience is limited to 2 or 3 individuals? You might want to know who you're talking to before tossing out comments like that! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Beethoven]

This post is just hilarious!!! I have only read the first two pages at this point. I am at TB girl as well, but it doesn't mean I don't like WB. I do! I like the ones that have a lot of TB in them!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif All TB that I have interacted with are very very smart and no spooky! My TB is not spooky at all! He is the lets stop and figure out what is going on kind, but them again he also has a double whirl on his head, which is suppose to be bad, but he is an awesome horse! He is smart and will save my butt if needed, but will also point out my mistakes to me, if I am no riding him totally correct.

Fairview, I don't know why you hate TB so much. I wish you lived in Co, so you could come see what my horse does when you just pull on the inside rein. Yup he bends his head to the inside and loses his outside shoulder!! I guess he is trained correctly seeing as you have to ride both sides of him. On the flat he does need and crave that constant attention, but when it comes to jumping he is just like let me know where you want me to go and I will go, which is nice. He likes to know I am there, but does not need me to ride each and every step and can make his on decisions safety wise.

Maybe I have only worked with smart TBs, and smart WB. yes, WB are slower and in my experience somewhat spookier. I like both breeds and I love getting on WB where you can just sit there and point or TB that are the same. I also enjoy riding a WB or TB that needs every step ridden, which ever is fine with me.

In my opinion, each horse is different, but there are way to many stereotypes out in the horse world about breeds, same with the human world, but each horse is different and should be treated that way.

There are stupid and smart of each. When I ride a horse, the breed is the last thing I think of. I think of it as the horse they are and how the tell me they should be ridden and such.

I guess I am a fan of both, or I guess I am really a fan of the individual horse, breed is always in the back of my mind! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[RioTex]

SMS, I have a very large, very shortbussed TB. I love him. I laugh at him and when he picked me up this morning by my coat, I yelled at him. He is so stupid, he is not afraid of anything. One day I drug the arena while he was in it and he trotted around behind me trying to catch the the chain drag with his feet. After stopping and starting a dozen times, he still could not figure out why when he was *this* close, that thing would stop moving.

One of my smart (too smart) TBs takes his feed bucket in his teeth and shakes it up and down at dinner time. The ox *learned* this trick and he takes his water bucket and shakes it up and down at any time of the day until he spills all of his water in his stall and sometimes removes the handles from the buckets.

This summer he went to school at the local circuit and we had to take away the key to his stall. A knob that twists on and off that you pull on to open the door, as when he spun it with his lips, it flew off into the shavings and he was locked in. So, we twisted it off and put away the key. I had to put it back on the stall while avoiding the lips to get him out.

My husband does not love this horse and keeps asking why he is not listed on the website. The sooner he is sold, the better in his eyes.

[Merry]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nightsong:
Merry, sounds like your horse is not purple, he's just GREEN!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wait a second. You have me confused with the original poster... I think. My current WB horse (the one by West Coast) is a great competition horse and wins just about everything-- when she isn't being a complete diva, but that's another story.

I guess we've bred/started about 30 WB's of all breeds and bloodlines and I DO LIKE THEM! That's why we continued to breed and show them. I just think that in some aspects they are "different" to work with than the average TB. Not worse, not more difficult, just DIFFERENT.

That's my personal experience and opinion and I'm sticking to it, even if I'm dragged kicking and screaming off the BB. So there. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Fairview Horse Center]

Actually what I am seeing bred today with the "modern type" of warmbloods is that they are getting hotter and hotter to breed those "World class athletes". I personally think that is a mistake. I watched Rembrandt in Atlanta totally blow his chance for a 2nd Ind. Gold when he spooked at the statues in the corners near the arena. Definitely HOT - HOT - HOT!! There were MANY more in Athens. Not your Amateur horses. It is thrilling to watch the horse that had a good day, and blows you away, but what about the other 363 days? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I prefer to breed wonderful gaits, and athletic ability but a quieter personality, and easier to ride. HOWEVER, they won't show off that "snorty, blowey trot" all of the time. They WILL show off nice rhythm, and elasticity when ever you want it.

[Beethoven]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
Actually what I am seeing bred today with the "modern type" of warmbloods is that they are getting hotter and hotter to breed those "World class athletes". I personally think that is a mistake. I watched Rembrandt in Atlanta totally blow his chance for a 2nd Ind. Gold when he spooked at the statues in the corners near the arena. Definitely HOT - HOT - HOT!! There were MANY more in Athens. Not your Amateur horses. It is thrilling to watch the horse that had a good day, and blows you away, but what about the other 363 days? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I prefer to breed wonderful gaits, and athletic ability but a quieter personality, and easier to ride. HOWEVER, they won't show off that "snorty, blowey trot" all of the time. They WILL show off nice rhythm, and elasticity when ever you want it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

HAHA!! My horse has been in the Grand Prix ring in Conyers, so many times! The funny thing that it was never once spooky, even with the fair in the background! The things that scare my boy are people riding western or yesterday when my friend was making her horse go over crossrails when he was trotting behind her!

The thing that I love about all the horse I have ever owned and showed is that at a show it is time to be perfect, not misbehave or no listen! Maybe thats why I love showing.

Anyways, thats terrible that that horse spooked, but funny at the sametime seeing as he is a WB.

I also think that the breeding the WB to be hotter is interesting. It like they want the status of riding a WB, but want the ride of a TB, IMHO of course.

Anyways I am all about the individual as I said before. Breed doesn't matter to me!

[Fairview Horse Center]

Beethoven - ???????????????? How is it I hate tb's??????
this is from my previous post

Merry
I have to object to your color choice, I'm just not a purple person but I DO like both, and actually have found them VERY similar to work with. The modern warmbloods are extremely like good TBs.

[Beethoven]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
Beethoven - ???????????????? How is it I hate tb's??????
this is from my previous post

Merry
I have to object to your color choice, I'm just not a purple person but I DO like both, and actually have found them VERY similar to work with. The modern warmbloods are extremely like good TBs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To me it seemed that you were implying that they were the inferior horse because IYO they are spooky, stupid, not fun to ride, not willing to go correctly, and more. Maybe I miss interpreted your post and I am sorry, but thats just what I got from them.

[MistyBlue]

MPO is that this thread is full of gross generalizations. The average TB is not hot, sensitive and smart and the average Wb is not slow, cold and stupid. I've ridden both types...and my general opnion is: If you want to ride a REALLY smart (ass) horse ride something with spots. Apps overall seem to be the ones needing the most fine tuning, pleading, precise and humble riding. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif
As for the TB's and WB's...follow the breeding lines to help you pick a personality type. Researching lines and traits will help determine which style horse fits your riding style. Some TB lines are hotter and more senstive than others...and some TB lines produce horses that fit the AQHA stereotype of quiet, calm and sweet tempered. Same with WB's...try a few from different lines to find the personality type that you like or need. 50% of each type I've ridden have been point and shoots...and 50% of each type I've ridden tell you to "ride every stride please, or get off."
Sheesh...they're horses...not the Hatfields and the McCoys. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Flash44]

Also, breeders have been selecting WBs for jumping ability and temperment for generations. Most TBs are still being bred to run fast, with little regard for anything else. It's a credit to the TB breed that they are able to adapt to hunters, jumpers, eventing, dressage and all the other things we have them do even though they were originally bred to race.

[Tiramit]

Good point, Flash. One TB who was bred specifically to jump comes mind... Gem Twist.

Warmbloods are wonderful (keep working with yours SMS!), but it;s a TB life for me!

[RugBug]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tiramit:
Good point, Flash. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey now...I made that point as well...on page three. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif Apparently I didn't word it well enough to garner any recognition for my insight, albeit not an original one. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Fairview Horse Center]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> 50% of each type I've ridden have been point and shoots...and 50% of each type I've ridden tell you to "ride every stride please, or get off."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I usually see that in the same horse. They WILL pack you around like a school horse, BUT if you begin to try and show them how to do it, you better be showing them right, because if you are going to tell them you know more, you better know more than they do. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[MistyBlue]

LOL, Fairview...you got that right! My first horse, an App mare, had days where she was a dreamboat to cruise along on. Then she had days....well, let's just say making it through the in gate was a battle and making it back out with her still under me was a blessing! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif
And my current KWPN mare will actually tilt her head to look back at me in the saddle when I ask her to do something with that, "Excuse me, but if you don't ask it 100% right honey, you ain't gettin' it!" look. Nit picking her will get you absolutely nowhere...and heaven forbid I don't ask correctly or send an ingraved request through the proper channels. But get on your game and have one of those "I can do nothing wrong" days and she's fab-u-lous. Could be the reason I keep the opnionated beast around...when she's good, she's VERY good...but when she's bad....look out! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Oxerbound]

I like horses. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

I like horses that get the job done. Who cares what breed it is? Also, considering how many warmbloods breeds there are, I don't think you can easily generalize either "type." http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

(btw, TBs for ever because I'm loyal like that, and WBs for all because they're so cute!)

[jordiensyd]

I too have a baby WB - she's 4 1/2 now - but - she is the excpetion to the dumbblood rule! She is very smart - and I find that I can't just drill the same lesson day after day - she gets bored. I have to find new ways of teaching the same lesson in order to keep her interested. I'm having a blast training her (of course with the help of a wonderful trainer.)

[Tiramit]

Please accept my most humble apology. You did indeed make that point first! Good point, RugBug! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[Peggy]

IMHO, on average TB's and WB's are different in some ways, but one isn't always better than the other. TB's might be likelier to "see dead people" but WB's are somewhat likelier get surprised by something that sneaked up on them. A smart, more sensitive horse of either ilk will probably have to be ridden by a series of agreements.

Cool, a TB, is probably way too smart to be a horse and keeps looking for ways to make it more interesting http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif This does not always make for a pleasurable riding experience. OTOH, once you teach him something he has it. He was a bit silly the other day so I put him to work and asked for (and got) all of the lateral work at the trot and a few tempi changes, despite the fact that he hasn't done this work in a year or so. All done in a jumping saddle and a flash-less bridle with a fat snaffle.

Then there is Star. A bit over half TB, with the rest Hanoverian, he can display an entire Kinsey sort of scale of behavior from stereotypical hot TB to dull dumblood. Fortunately, he's generally someplace in the middle. Then there are days I've longed him and gotten more exercise than he has while trying to make him move, mounted and started to ride when, kah-wham, the tail goes over his back and he's off to the races. Those are the days of the notorious MRL (mid-ride longe). His metabolism runs more to the TB side, making me feel like I'm feeding a 1200# teenage boy. He is an excellent escape artist who figured out how to turn on the water faucet outside his stall at his first show. He is generally quite trainable, tho there is a stubborn streak in there too. Do we credit the former to the smart TB or the compliant WB? Do we blame the latter on the Northern Dancer or the "dumblood" ancestory?

[Bugs-n-Frodo]

I don't think everyone, and I am not just talking about this BB, will EVER agree about this. Everyone IS entitled to their own opinion.

WBs became more popular when people were looking for MORE movement. Yes, to some, I suppose it was the status symbol associated with them. However, when dressage riders wanted MORE, WBs had it. I am not saying that there are not some wonderful movers who are also TBs, but as somebody (s) have already stated, they are bred for speed, most of the time, whereas WBs were bred for sport. Recently, we are seeing an influx of TB blood in the WB breeds. Many people, myself included, are breeding TB mares to WB sire or v.v. to get the "modern WB". There are qualities of both that are beneficial to the show ring. I personally like a horse who is a bit hotter, that can turn into brilliance in the show ring in chanelled correctly. But, brilliance has it's price, if you push too hard for it, it can blow up on you... litterally. I have also seen an increase, lately, of TB sport horse breeders. Seems as though the popularity of crossing TBs and WBs has resulted in people wanting to promote TBs as sport horses. In Germany there are many REALLY NICE TB stallions in their breeding programs. They are put to the same test as the WBS to become approved in their registries. I think the US is trying to head in the same direction. Germans use TBs (And, pardon the shameless plug, TRAKEHNERS http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) as improvement and refining blood for many WBs. My point is, there is not one breed who is better than the other, they are just different. IMO, WBs rock, TBs rock and I guess that is why I chose to breed my TB mare to a Trakehner stallion, it was my attempt to get the best of both worlds... and well... to be honest... I did! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif (Sorry 'bout the shameless brag on my "kid", I just think he is the bee's knees. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

[northplaza]

I was considering getting a WB for my next future-ex-horse, but now I think I'll stick with what I know and know I love- The Thoroughbred.

Seriously.

But this has been an elucidating as well as entertaining thread.

[Pet Psychic]

Okay. So who among you uses draw reins on your warmblood or Thoroughbred? That's what I want to know.

(See other nasty thread to gain point of sarcasm). http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Lord Helpus]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by northplaza:
I was considering getting a WB for my next future-ex-horse, but now I think I'll stick with what I know and know I love- The Thoroughbred. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL. Many of my OTTB's don't hold up for very long, but, going in, I always hope they will. I have never thought they would go lame so quickly that I would call them a "future-ex horse". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Madame Butterfly]

I don't use draw reins AT ALL!!! Sometimes when doing dressage, I use a German martingale...and I have used the elastic neck stretcher.

But actually, I prefer to get him on his back end and into a frame with my own human apparatus...my legs, seat...blahblahblah...

[Sing Mia Song]

Okay, as the OP, I have to get back to the business at hand. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Is my poor guy simply a "typical" WB?

Or does he ride the Short Bus?

For those who have forgotten the original post and don't wanna weed back through 4 pages, here ya go:

&lt;&lt;He's a sweet horse, but the fact that he just doesn't seem to "get it" has me a little frustrated in working with him. Am I asking too much because I expect him to act like a TB? To me, he's at the stage of maturity of a late 2yo or early 3yo TB would be--very short attention span, big and googly-eyed, doesn't have his sealegs. He's going to be 6 soon, for crying out loud!&gt;&gt;

&lt;&lt;But he's dumb in Horse Sociology 101, too. Every single day that he's been here, he's walked up to Stanley wih his ears pricked and a "Hi, there!" expression. Every single day, Stanley has swung his neck around and chomped him.

If you knew the neighborhood bully was waiting to knock your block off at the bus stop every morning, would you present yourself daily in front of him for his boxing pleasure?&gt;&gt;

[Lord Helpus]

SMS~~~~

I gotta think he's a short busser. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

At his age he should be able to get out of his own way and show some low level of self preservation.

But at least there is a good program available for mentally challenged equines.

It's called "Dressage". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Fairview Horse Center]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If you knew the neighborhood bully was waiting to knock your block off at the bus stop every morning, would you present yourself daily in front of him for his boxing pleasure? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is just too funny!

I would say, no, he doesn't sound like typical warmbloods I have had. Most of mine have been fairly to quite smart, quick learners, not very spooky, ready to begin their careers by the time they are 3 to 3 1/2. I actually find them to be smarter than many TBs I have worked with. Remember though that bloodlines will breed true. There are some lines that are late maturing.

Delayed in the birth canal? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[Peggy]

Doesn't sound like a typical WB. While some have a "processing speed deficit" they do get it eventually. As someone said some lines do mature more slowly. Maybe the lack of maturity is related more to the fact that not much was done with him? Or, expected of him? Animals (and this includes children and college students) tend to rise or fall to what is expected of them.

[SED]

SMS -- As a WB owner (only 1, so limited experience) I don't think your question can be answered until your boy is 6. My WB mare was very immature at 5. She had early training, so she was obedient, tracked well, had good transitions and never acted like a bronco in training like some TBs can, so it took me awhile to realize that while she is never "bad", she can't always concentrate. She was very easily distracted. Once she turned 6, she seemed to settle down and concentrate more. But she is still an adorable ditz, and is insatiably curious. I can see her -- even at 6 1/2 -- repeatedly approaching a horse who would try to bite her! She would always just want to know if he would do it again....

[JB]

Sing Mia Song - forgive me if you already said this, but can you give some examples of "he doesn't get it"? I have found with mine that if I am not absolutely consistent in how I ask him to do things, he "doesn't get it". I think it goes back to "Why. Why. Why. Why. Why." so if I change something, it's a new game without me even realizing it. This is the opposite of my TB who would go "Oh, that's sorta what you asked earlier, is THIS what you meant?" because he was always looking for the right answer.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I would like to know as well. Other than being super friendly http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif what is it he is doing?

[*In Vogue*]

wow i havent read all the responces yet but your horse sounds just like mine!! mine is a 5 year old sweedish warmblood and she is very silly and looks at everything and spooks at everything. She has to be 100% sure of everything before she goes over it. She has had a bit of training she did the hack divison when she was a 3 year old and then just got a bit of working like a few times a month and a bit of jumping. we are jumping around 2'9 right now but she stops at the fence the first time and then jumps the hell out of it the second time. Its very frustrating but i just keep remembering shes a baby. i get frustrated really easy so im trying to just take it easy and think positive and remmeber that one of the horses at my barn is a trakhner and he used to spook at everything he was the biggest retard when he was 5 and now hes 7 and hes the most laid back perfect hunter ever the girl that owns him now puts her little kids on him and everything so im hoping its just a stage shes going through as a baby.

[Sing Mia Song]

He actually was pretty terrific today! But to answer your questions:

He finds it almost impossible to walk a straight line without shambling around from side to side. More so than your basic greenie. When doing circles, he does the same fall-in, fall-out. I find that I have to micromanage every step he takes. He just feels like a horse that was barely broken, when I know he was walking, trotting, cantering and jumping little jumps at the trainer's. And when he's done with work, he's DONE--his attention span is about 10 minutes, then I praise him heavily and we go for a stroll around the paddock.

More telling is his behavior on the ground. Our farm is next door to a dairy, and the heifers' field is right next to ours. In the field is also a big white tarp covering roundbales.

Every Single Day, Toad comes out of his shed and wheels around, going "HOLY $h!T! What the HELL is THAT!" After several minutes, he strolls off to graze by the fence line.

Oh, and if I more the water trough, he can't find it. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

[Fairview Horse Center]

Definitely NOT a typical warmblood

but it did make me laugh http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Lilac]

Sing Mia, the phrase "creatures of habit" was probably invented to describe horses, and I'd say specifically warmbloods. I think your horse is typical in that he has created his own learned habit of spooking at the white tarp he sees day after day, and he sticks to his habit of walking to a certain spot for a drink whether his water trough is still there or not. Those are funny, familiar descriptions of WBs. So keep working on creating new habits for him through repetition, and eventually (when he's sufficiently dehydrated?) his new habits will be as engrained as the originals. I'm currently in a situation similar to yours -- looking after a big 7 year old WB whose owner didn't spend quite enough time on the horse's formative years, and asked for help a little too late, so the horse has engrained habits and gaps in his education that are taking a long time for me to change or fill. Stick with it, though, and enjoy the small victories. This kind of horse can be a really satisfying project.

[jordiensyd]

I have found my WB to be quite the quick learner - but as others have said - I must be very consistent with her. I must ask for things the same way each time - or she seemingly doesn't get it.
She is much better now - but I remember many days of not being able to walk in a straight line without me physically supporting each and every step!
I do believe with time and persistence your "dumblood may" turn out to be worth all the effort it's taking now.

[Lord Helpus]

Ya think if you changed his name from "Toad" to "Einstein" it might help?

[Illyria]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sing Mia Song:
I find that I have to micromanage every step he takes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Perhaps that's part of the problem? Maybe you're trying to ask for too much too soon. With mine I just ask them to go forward and straight (no circles or tight turns or even a lot of transitions) mostly at the trot until they find their balance, even if they are 5 coming 6.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And when he's done with work, he's DONE--his attention span is about 10 minutes, then I praise him heavily and we go for a stroll around the paddock. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I praise mine as they are working - if they take 2 good steps, they get praised and pats right away - not all at once at the end, although I do that to and try to end on a good note all the time. I find they respond much better to praise than to correction/punishment, which sometimes only makes them more determined not to listen and do the opposite of what you are asking for.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Every Single Day, Toad comes out of his shed and wheels around, going "HOLY $h!T! What the HELL is THAT!" After several minutes, he strolls off to graze by the fence line. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I've been around quite a few WBs, not all of them green or young, that do that. I don't know if they're really scared or just playing/acting silly or fresh. I do find that what they get fed (and how much they're worked) has a lot to do with their behavior.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Oh, and if I more the water trough, he can't find it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That does not seem typical of a WB. Even the ones that spook for no apparent reason seem to be rather smart. A lot of them seem to figure out pretty quickly what they can get away with and then keep trying to push the limits (ie not wanting to work) - I'm not sure if that's typical of TBs or not as I haven't been around a lot of them and the ones I have been around were either extremely easy and willing to please or nutcases that no one wanted to ride...WBs seem to fall somewhere in between.

[Peggy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Ya think if you changed his name from "Toad" to "Einstein" it might help? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Maybe not. I knew an Einstein once--he was kind of a geeky plastic pocket protector sort of horse, but without the accompanying smarts.

[JB]

*snort* I just had to laugh about the "HOLY $h!T! What the HELL is THAT!" because that sounds pretty typical of some! One of my neighbors has a brick pile which is right outside my fenceline where I ride. Rio "spooks" at that pile Every. Single. Day. Unless I get him SUPER busy before we approach it. It's not a "omg it's going to eat me!" deal, it's a "you aren't keeping me busy enough so I'll entertain myself" deal. What about next time backing Toad out of his shed? Or is this something that he does on his own? If so, I wouldn't worry, it's his own little game http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

As for his attention span, I think he's trained you to 10 minutes http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif If you praise him and go for a stroll when he says he's done, you will never get past that. I would work on that now before it's REALLY ingrained in him, or it will be ugly ugly ugly to correct. When he says he's done, ask him for something else relatively easy and quit on your terms.

I think he's also trained you to manage him http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif He needs to learn to think for himself. The fact he seems SO wiggly seems to be an indication that he's not really forward, so that's what I'd work on first. Been there!! He's asking "WHY do I have to walk straight, do you SEE me walking in a straight line out in the pasture except when I'm going to look at something?" See, there's what "why why why why why" mentality again http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif So, give him a reason to walk straight - GO to something. Then stop there for a minute. Then GO to something else and stop for a minute. He needs a reason to walk a straight line so his "WHY???" is answered. Let him make his "mistake" of wandering away from the straight line, then correct him. If you constantly try to prevent him from wandering, he'll never learn the consequence of his actions. Soon he'll get tired of being correct and will walk to where you pointed him.

[Sing Mia Song]

Okay, let me answer a few more of the questions y'all have posed.

I do praise him as we go along--right now we're working on walk-halt-walk and he gets a big "gooood booooie" and a pat if he does it properly. And as far as micromanaging...well, all I was trying to get him to do was walk in a straight line! He does seem to have cottoned on to that, though.

I think you're right in that the "Holy $h!t!" thing is a fun game for him.

As far as keeping him to ten minutes or so, I try to keep him going until I feel him flag. He hasn't done much of anything for the 3-4 months before he came home, and he's sooo upright in his stifles that I'm trying to build him physically as well as mentally, so I can make sure I have a horse later. I agree I should probably be pushing the envelope a little more--except I'm out of shape, too! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif To that end, I've started going back to the gym.

Oh, and I've been on plenty of horses who had the "why why why." His is more of a "huh? huh? huh?" http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

As to the name...my husband and my partner both said, "You CAN'T call him TOAD!!!" But it really, really fits. I call him the Toad King.

I like Toads! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Flash44]

You have much more patience than me! The only thing I might add would be field work? Sometimes, the faster you go, the straighter you go, and sometimes if you can just get a young horse into an open space, drop your reins and just push them forward, they get the forward thing.

[Illyria]

I agree with Flash44, and this was the point I was trying to make earlier, obviously not very well. The walk tends to be difficult to manage because it's such a slow gait and they have lots of time to think (or not think) about what they are (not) doing. If you push them to go forward at the trot (the canter might be a little difficult because they tend to be very strung out), they have a lot less time to get crooked with each step, and the more forward they go, the more they tend to straighten out...I'm more worried about having a straight horse than so much going in a straight line (if that makes any sense), although it does seem to follow. And then you drop your reins so that they have nothing to lean or balance against. I think the walk and halt is probably the last thing I'd worry about.

[SAM]

This topic made me laugh when I saw the title. I myself have also ridden nothing but TB's my whole life so the WB thing is new to me. I bought a 3year old WB last Jan. All I have to say is WOW I fell off him a ton of times. He spooked at everything possible and even things that were not there. One day I made a mistake and sneezed on him and he spooked lol He's been in training for a solid 11 months and he is a total saint now. It;s pretty funny cause he will spook at everything at home but once at a horse show he's all business and doesn't spook.

I have found WB's need a lot more patience and are just as smart as TB's. My guy retains a lot and has a wonderful work ethic. He just needs some reassurence at times. It took my a while to adjust to the way he is but now we understand each other and I know what his breaking points are.

[LH]

typical WB.

With some, you have to tell them where to put every foot, every step, and create the energy/run the motor for them. Some mature WBs you have to ride (read, push and spur) every step to make sure they keep going forward. Some do take until they are 8 or so (or older) to mature. Don't despair, don't lose patience, and just keeping working on!

Patient repetition is key. And as an aside, I had kind of a "slow" TB many years ago that was my junior hunter. Not real smart, but he would jump anything, including the fence line that was part of a handy hunter course that some of the other "smart" horses wouldn't jump (hey, I can't jump out of the ring!). So, there may be some benefits if the horse doesn't think "too much" for himself.

[Ratatosk]

Maybe your Toad could use some work that challenges him a bit. Something like riding cross country, with and with out fences, in company and without you helping (!!!) - just so that he realizes that he better start taking some responsibility.

[Tin]

lol! this thread makes me laugh!

It's funny because I rode a Hann for 4 years and he was dumb but oh sooooo smart! What I mean by that was he found it quite easy to spook at something and if you pushed the issue he'd make a huge stink about it. But if you ignored it, turned and came back at the scarey he'd walk right on by. He knew when he had to work and when he could avoid it or if he was bored by wiggling, spooking, acting up etc
First time we put him out with our mare she kicked him sqaure in the butt and all he did was "grunt" from the impact and saunter away lol! drove the mare nuts, was funny as hell!


Same horse that could be the most brilliant beast I have ever touched over fences as soon as he taught me to ride him.

[Fairview Horse Center]

We had a TB mare boarded here a few years ago that drove me crazy with spooking. It was all a huge game to her. She would spook at eveything, and esp every single blanket on a door when being led by. Well, one morning, I had had enough. I went and got a chain, put it on her and led her back out. She TOTALLY ignored the blankets. I grabbed them, shook them at her, tried to walk her over them in a lump on the floor. Tried to do everything I could to make her not respect my body space. NADA. She yawned! Just not going to play unless she could get me. Sure am glad no one had a video on me, or we would have seen who was the "dumblood" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif