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Laurierace
Jul. 19, 2004, 06:05 PM
It never ceases to amaze me what people will throw away. Today the rescue that I volunteer for bought a 3 yr old colt out of the kill pen at New Holland for $175. We normally don't buy studs, but this one was just so spectacular that we couldn't pass him up. She calls me and asks me to look up his name and find out what his pedigree was and if he has a race record etc. We like to contact past owners just to let them know what happened to their horses.
Anyway, I almost fall over when I see the sire was Danzig and the dam produced a stakes winner of almost $500k in Nebraska Tornado. There doesn't appear to be anything wrong with him either other than he needs to be singing soprano to be in our program. Will be interesting to see how this one pans out.

Laurierace
Jul. 19, 2004, 06:05 PM
It never ceases to amaze me what people will throw away. Today the rescue that I volunteer for bought a 3 yr old colt out of the kill pen at New Holland for $175. We normally don't buy studs, but this one was just so spectacular that we couldn't pass him up. She calls me and asks me to look up his name and find out what his pedigree was and if he has a race record etc. We like to contact past owners just to let them know what happened to their horses.
Anyway, I almost fall over when I see the sire was Danzig and the dam produced a stakes winner of almost $500k in Nebraska Tornado. There doesn't appear to be anything wrong with him either other than he needs to be singing soprano to be in our program. Will be interesting to see how this one pans out.

LaurieB
Jul. 19, 2004, 06:25 PM
If your colt is Media Empire, out of Media Nox, according to the information on the Pedigreequery board, he's also a full brother to grade 2 stakes winner, Burning Sun.

Laurierace
Jul. 19, 2004, 06:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LaurieB:
If your colt is Media Empire, out of Media Nox, according to the information on the Pedigreequery board, he's also a full brother to grade 2 stakes winner, Burning Sun. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's him.

Linny
Jul. 19, 2004, 07:28 PM
Burning Sun was with Frankel as of this spring. He began is career in Europe.

SeaOat
Jul. 20, 2004, 03:54 AM
Media Nox ran & produced group placed/winners, as did her dam. We really liked her sire (still alive I think?) Lycius....don't know if he ever stood here or is still in Europe but he threw out some nice-nice runners as well. Currently, a friend of ours trains one of his group winning sons in Milan. We've not lived in Europe for years, nor bred anything in as many so was a pleasant surprise to see her name in your post.
Good luck w/ your new guy & please http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif post some pics! (is he a chestnut? Silly question but I think I remember his mom was one)

Rusty Stirrup
Jul. 20, 2004, 04:26 AM
Has the makings of a future movie. Keep an eye on this one. Remember the jumper Snowman, bought out of the killer's pen. Sometimes owners personal problems make their horses wind up in the strangest places. Keep us posted with his progress.

Linny
Jul. 20, 2004, 08:57 AM
Lycius is in NY, at MIll Creek (http://www.nybreds.com/frames/FS_stallionreg.html) and has been well received.

Glimmerglass
Jul. 20, 2004, 09:09 AM
Interesting find to be sure http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Does this guy have any race starts as a 2-yr old? Of course he wouldn't be the first off spring of a mega horse that found himself being cast off.

Congrats on the very cheap score and him not going to someone looking to milk every dollar from him and his bloodlines.

Kinsella
Jul. 20, 2004, 09:17 AM
And yes, I know there are bazillions of breeding horses out there, but please contact his previous owners or breeder before gelding him. A nice stallion with a good pedigree may be worth something to their breeding program. (and I don't mean monetarily)

Jessi P
Jul. 20, 2004, 09:26 AM
Medie Empire was unraced thru 12-31-03, so he had no starts as a 2 yo.


MEDIA NOX (GB), 1993, Lycius- Sky Love by Nijinsky 2nd.
YRS ST WN PL SH EARNED SR SSI
1999 BURNING SUN,c,Danzig
IN UNITED KINGDOM 3 9 1 2 2 56,466
IN FRANCE 1 2 1 0 1 63,378
DP = 10-11-21-4-0 DI = 2.17 CD = 0.59 AWD = 9.97
At 3 Won Hampton Court S. (ENG), Pr Eugene Adam -G2 (FR), 3rd Pr Guillaume
D'ornano -G2 (FR)
At 4 3rd Huxley S. (ENG)
2000 NEBRASKA TORNADO,f,Storm Cat
IN FRANCE 1 5 4 0 0 558,255
DP = 8-3-11-4-0 DI = 1.74 CD = 0.58 AWD = 9.07
At 3 Won Pr Melisande (FR), Pr De Diane Hermes (French Oaks) -G1 (FR), Pr
Du Moulin De Longchamp -G1 (FR)
2001 Media Empire,c,Danzig Unraced
DP = 10-11-21-4-0 DI = 2.17 CD = 0.59
SIRE 7.37 Spi, 684str, 58%2yo, 32%1st, 19%Mud/590sts, 19%Tf/999sts, AWD 8.1
DAM(sw) 0.00 Dpi, 1 2yostr/0wnr, 0%Mud/0sts, 2 Tfstr/2wnr, 2 Rtestr/2wnr, AWD 9.4
2002 Mirabilis,f,Lear Fan Unraced
DP = 6-2-22-4-0 DI = 1.27 CD = 0.29
SIRE 2.99 Spi, 515str, 35%2yo, 13%1st, 13%Mud/546sts, 14%Tf/999sts, AWD 8.4
DAM(sw) 0.00 Dpi, 1 2yostr/0wnr, 0%Mud/0sts, 2 Tfstr/2wnr, 2 Rtestr/2wnr, AWD 9.4
2003 Unnamed,c,Maria's Mon (pending)
DP = 5-2-11-4-0 DI = 1.32 CD = 0.36

Las Olas
Jul. 21, 2004, 06:59 AM
Laurierace - Are you sure it's Media Empire? Are you getting this from the tattoo? The records I pulled up say that Juddmonte still owns that colt. Please call Garrett O'Rourke at Juddmonte Farm (859)272-7629 and tell him that you have a colt that you think is Media Empire and you want to confirm it. They keep the registration photos that they send in to TJC on file and may be able to confirm the colts identity. They would be horrified to know that one of their colts was at a kill pen, and by alerting them, they can sever ties with the person that took the colt there (they may have given the colt away with good intentions). Please let us know how it turns out. I have a hard time believing that a Juddmonte colt would end up that way. They are very good to their horses and careful about placing them.

Laurierace
Jul. 21, 2004, 01:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Las Olas:
Laurierace - Are you sure it's Media Empire? Are you getting this from the tattoo? The records I pulled up say that Juddmonte still owns that colt. Please call Garrett O'Rourke at Juddmonte Farm (859)272-7629 and tell him that you have a colt that you think is Media Empire and you want to confirm it. They keep the registration photos that they send in to TJC on file and may be able to confirm the colts identity. They would be horrified to know that one of their colts was at a kill pen, and by alerting them, they can sever ties with the person that took the colt there (they may have given the colt away with good intentions). Please let us know how it turns out. I have a hard time believing that a Juddmonte colt would end up that way. They are very good to their horses and careful about placing them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I contacted Juddmonte Monday night and they said they sold him in August of last year. They also said that once a horse was "off their books" that they weren't interested anymore. We are having his papers overnighted to us by his previous owner who is being very cooperative. I think we are going to sell him as a stallion prospect with a clause that he has to come back to us as a gelding if he doesn't pan out, or if he is pensioned at some point. I have two nice pics of him, maybe I can figure out how to post them.

LaurieB
Jul. 21, 2004, 04:44 PM
I would love to see pictures. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Beezer
Jul. 21, 2004, 08:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Laurierace:
We are having his papers overnighted to us by his previous owner who is being very cooperative. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is this the person who dumped him at New Holland? If so, did he/she say why?

And while I applaud you -- no, sing, dance, wave my arms and then bow to you -- for the rescue work you do, I simply don't know how you keep yourself from hauling off and clobbering these people. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

As you can probably tell, I tend to make only monetary contributions to rescue groups, lest I be arrested for assaulting a$$holes. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

LaurieB
Jul. 22, 2004, 06:11 AM
Laurierace sent me pictures and he's a good looking colt. I wonder what the previous owner could possibly have been thinking? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

LaurieB
Jul. 22, 2004, 06:13 AM
And another. Too bad he's not a mare. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Laurierace
Jul. 22, 2004, 06:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beezer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Laurierace:
We are having his papers overnighted to us by his previous owner who is being very cooperative. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is this the person who dumped him at New Holland? If so, did he/she say why?

And while I applaud you -- no, sing, dance, wave my arms and then bow to you -- for the rescue work you do, I simply don't know how you keep yourself from hauling off and clobbering these people. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

As you can probably tell, I tend to make only monetary contributions to rescue groups, lest I be arrested for assaulting a$$holes. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Luckily, I don't have to do much of the dealing with people. I can't tell you how many times someone has told me that I have to take their horse TODAY or else they are going to the killers. When you tell them it will be soon, but not today, they inevitably say "So you are just going to let them die?" Like I am the one sending them there! That one drives me crazy because if you accomodate them by taking their horse right then, you are basically screwing over the people on the waiting list who are nice enough to wait their turn, but if you don't....

Jleegriffith
Jul. 22, 2004, 07:03 AM
Wow! I can't believe he was at New Holland. Any soundness issues or particular reason he ended up there? I have bought so many there over the past couple of years when I was renting a big field to turn them out in for let down and to make sure they weren't sick. I would give them a few months of and recondition them for show homes. I haven't gotten any this year b/c I have no field and I worry about bringing sickness into our barn.
My stepfather was/is a trainer and I have never been comfortable with the owners who just want to dump their horses. It personally makes me sick. All the see is the $. I always would say how about donating them? Can I resell them for you as a riding prospect? Most of them don't want to waste the time it takes.
I hope this guy gets a good home. If I had seen him I would have snatched him up in a second. I am glad you got him.

mistyjewell
Jul. 22, 2004, 09:55 AM
Wow! What a great find! While not so special, I got my mare from New Holland for $425, sound as a 10 yr old, having raced her whole life, and won $250k on the track. Now she's my future eventer, and taken to going XC like a duck to water. While she'll never be amazing, being retrained as an 11 yr old, I do hope to get a sporthorse baby out of her. Can't beat her soundness and attitude!

Las Olas
Jul. 22, 2004, 01:57 PM
Good job Laurierace. I have to say that I'm very disappointed in Juddmonte, though. Do you remember who you spoke with. I know a lot of the people over there, and you can bet I'm going to give them hell over this. As far as I'm concerned, if you breed a horse, that horse is your responsibility. ANY horse that I have bred will be welcome back to my farm. I may not have room to keep them forever, but I will retrain them or have them trained at my expense and then find them a home. Every industry needs to clean up after itself.

Flash44
Jul. 22, 2004, 03:22 PM
Me me me me me me me!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I want him, not for a stallions, but for a spoiled rotten show horse with lots of grass and good food and a nice warm stall!!!!

And I'm already in MD!!!!

texang73
Jul. 22, 2004, 03:23 PM
Laurierace,
Thanks for what you do rescuing these guys... He looks amazing. I can't understand why someone would give him away...

Laurierace
Jul. 22, 2004, 06:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Las Olas:
Good job Laurierace. I have to say that I'm very disappointed in Juddmonte, though. Do you remember who you spoke with. I know a lot of the people over there, and you can bet I'm going to give them hell over this. As far as I'm concerned, if you breed a horse, that horse is your responsibility. ANY horse that I have bred will be welcome back to my farm. I may not have room to keep them forever, but I will retrain them or have them trained at my expense and then find them a home. Every industry needs to clean up after itself. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't ask her name, but it sounded like a somewhat older woman. I just talked to whoever answered the phone if that helps you any.
The DRF article will be published on Sunday. Not sure if the part about them not being interested in him will be in there or not.

gobabygo
Jul. 22, 2004, 06:22 PM
i have never posted here, but i saw a link on final turn about this horse. i was at the frankel barn the beginning of june, and took a picture of two of his horses outside getting baths. one of them i believe was burning sun. the pictures shown here of media empire, they didn't show his face front on. but if he has a blaze like burning sun, then they could be twins! i don't know how to post pictures here, so any help is appreciated! please keep everyone posted about this horse. had i been there and been in a better financial situation, i'd have grabbed him as well. at least he was saved.

hitchinmygetalong
Jul. 22, 2004, 06:42 PM
Someone should call Claiborne. If this is a Danzig colt, they might be very, very interested.

Toadie's mom
Jul. 22, 2004, 11:19 PM
Laurierace... A big pat on the back to you and the rescue organization you work for! I must say though, I'm not a bit surprised at any story I hear of the plight of a TB. I have 4 retirees and 2 yrs. ago I decided I'd try to breed my own to race. Well boy did I get a rude awakening. I've come across greed, mismanagement and have been treated with total disrepect. It is truly an "industry" and how anyone could be so naive to think that any big breeding farm could give a rat's a** about any horse they sell is beyond me. Oh, I take that back. They certainly do care what happens to the ones that make a lot of money on the track. As long as it's something they could sell a relative of, or possibly get back to breed for an outrageous stud fee.
I still love the races, but I'm seriously rethinking my involvement.

Flash44
Jul. 23, 2004, 07:19 AM
There are some good Tb people left. I got my horse from Bill Boniface, and I also worked for him for years. He always went above and beyond to find good homes for horses that were not going to make it as race horses. As fate would have it, the old owner of my horse now has horses with Mr. Flash's current boss. He was delighted to hear that the horse he let me have for a song is doing well and happy.

Las Olas
Jul. 23, 2004, 08:17 AM
Hitch - Unfortunatley, Claiborne would not be interested in this colt as they didn't breed him. They have plenty of Danzig's around there that are much better bred than this colt.

Laurierace - You must have spoken with Barbara Taylor, and although she is nice, she can be a bit short on the phone sometimes. Also, have you checked his fertility yet? I have a sneaking suspicion, from things I've heard, that this colt may be sterile.

Toadie's Mom - My opinion is that your comments here are way out of line. I know, and have worked, for several of the big names in the industry. Although there are many that don't care, there are just as many that do care about the future of their horses. Claiborne places all of their horses that can't run in H/J homes and they just took Lure back, AND they've kept Private Account there for over a decade, just to make sure he is taken care of. They also spend TONS of money every year on their pensioned broodmares. Padua has a seperate training facility to retrain their OTTB's and place them in homes. Cobra Farm does the same. There are always horses that fall through the cracks, but MOST of the horses in the kill pens are ex-pleasure horses that H/J, Dressage, Polo, ASB, Arabian, QH people don't find useful anymore. Thoroughbreds are NOT the majority. Not to mention that you are contributing to the problem if you are breeding your own "backyard racehorse" as you state. Anyone that breeds horses is contributing to the "problem" of unwanted horses(including myself), so I am certainly not going to be hypocritical and point fingers elsewhere. I am sorry that you have had bad experiences in this industry. So have I. But I've also met crappy bankers, car salesmen, brokers, real estate agents, etc. Bad apples in every bunch! It's frustrating to come across the scum in any industry, but I don't think that the TB industry should be singled out as the exception.

Epitome
Jul. 23, 2004, 09:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Toadie's mom:
I have 4 retirees and 2 yrs. ago I decided I'd try to breed my own to race. Well boy did I get a rude awakening. I've come across greed, mismanagement and have been treated with total disrepect. It is truly an "industry" and how anyone could be so naive to think that any big breeding farm could give a rat's a** about any horse they sell is beyond me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am sorry that you have had such a bad experience in the racing industry. It sounds as though you are very bitter because your homebred didn't exactly get the reception in the racing world that you expected. But to be perfectly honest, it IS an industry, and not a hobby, as breeding a racehorse obviously was for you.
Those of us in the horse business actually have to make a living at it, and that involves selling our stock, and occasionally cutting our losses. I don't agree with sending a horse to slaughter, but to expect that anybody would or could be responsible for everything that they have ever sold is ridiculous. It is a business just like any other. It would be wonderful if it were possible, but it isn't. Do regular horse people buy back every horse that they have ever had? I see ads all the time trying to give away 20 year old and older "schoolmasters", or "companion horses" to a good home. Usually the ad also mentions that the owner is going off to school, or has a younger horse and cannot keep both. It is a sad reality in all facets of the horse world.

One thing that does amaze me about this business is how many people decide to breed a racehorse of their own, without any real knowledge of racing itself, and then complain because nobody takes them or their stock seriously. They blame everybody else, but never even consider that maybe it is their own ignorance that is the problem. Few people would buy a restaurant to run who didn't even know how to cook, but massive numbers of people decide to breed and race just because they have owned a horse at one time or another. Then they cannot understand why nobody is falling down to buy or train their stock on a percentage, since few of these amature breeders actually have the funds to pay a trainer to get the horse to the races. I'm not saying that this is the case with you, since I have no idea who you are or anything about you, but based on your comment about owning retirees and deciding to breed, it sounds as though it could possibly be the case. If not, then I stand corrected.

Most thoroughbred breeders try as best as they can to provide for their horses throughout their life. Most major farms make huge contributions to horse rescues throughbout the country, and most will give away their unwanted stock to good homes when needed. I myself have a standing offer to take back any horse that I have ever bred or sold when that horse leaves the track. But we are in business to make money, and I don't see a problem with trying to realize a profit for our hard work. If you have a job, I doubt that you are willing to work 40 hours a week for free, and if not, I daresay your husband feels the same. Why should profit be a dirty word only when connected with the racing industry, and not anywhere else?

Toadie's mom
Jul. 23, 2004, 02:24 PM
Ok, I have a thick skin and I did figure I'd be attacked for expressing my feelings. Unfortunately those feelings came from very unpleasant experiences. I've posted on the breeding forum about my mare that came home from a breeding farm with a rectal tear. Another one came home dangerously underweight. 2 different farms...1200 miles apart. No, I don't have 6figure, black type mares, but they are conformationally correct, both winners (albeit cheap races) and both proven producers of warmblood crosses. I have the room and the ability to retrain my own horses, so I wasn't breeding to sell. I've shown breed shows and eventing and yes, there are bad apples everywhere, but these were the worst I've encountered.

Las Olas... you're fortunate to live in the best possible TB "neighborhood" and I know there are some good people at the farms. I'm still entitled to my opinion on a public forum. Like I said, I still love racing and will remain a fan, I just don't think I'll contribute to the business part of it again. And as small as my contribution was, and would be in the future, no one will miss me! LOL I'm still coming to the Keeneland sale, are you mad at me??????? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

Epitome... My oldest TB homebred is a yearling, so there hasn't been any kind of reception. I don't begrudge anyone a profit in business, whether it's horses, or toilet paper. I just expect to be treated with the same respect I show as a customer. I've bought quite a few OTTB,s to retrain. I called farms where 2 of them were raised to let them know how they were doing and also to tell them I'd be interested in buying others should they retire any that were similar. Maybe it's just my bad luck, but I was met with total disinterest. I'm not naming names and I'm certainly not influential enough to stop anyone else from contributing to the TB industry. Like I said abv. This is a public forum and we're all entitled to voice our opinions. Believe me, I wish my opinions weren't based on personal experience.Truce http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LaurieB
Jul. 23, 2004, 03:28 PM
Here's the colt's story, with another nice picture, from the TB Times site:

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/todaysnews/newsview.asp?recno=47193&subsec=1

Flash44
Jul. 23, 2004, 03:58 PM
$25,000!

drifting cloud
Jul. 23, 2004, 05:14 PM
Great article. Congrats, Laurierace! I'm sure Lost & Found can use the money. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Please keep us posted about where the colt ends up.

Laurierace
Jul. 24, 2004, 08:27 AM
This appears in the sunday edition of the Daily Racing Form.
By the time Media Empire’s strong though undernourished physique caught Kelly Young’s eye at the New Holland Auction in Central Pennsylvania on Monday, the three-year-old son of Danzig already had been sold for $175 to a Canadian horse slaughter company.Young operates Lost and Found Horse Rescue in York, Pennsylvania, and despite a sold tag already adorning Media Empire, Young knew the colt was one she had to have. She found the buyer, negotiated a $225 price, and took the colt back to Lost and Found.

"This horse was just gorgeous," Young said the day after the sale. "He had just received a sedative and was getting ready to load the van, so I acted fast."

Young was eventually able to piece together the colt’s history with help from a veterinarian and information on his Coggins test once she returned to York. Bred in Kentucky by Juddmonte Farm, Media Empire is the third foal out of Group 3 winner Media Nox (GB), whose first two foals are 2003 Prix de Diane (Fr-G1) (French Oaks) winner Nebraska Tornado and Group 2 winner Burning Sun. A condition affecting the colt’s hind end precluded Media Empire from ever racing and Juddmonte sold Media Empire in August 2003 for an undisclosed price to William Rickman Sr., an owner-breeder who owns Delaware Park in Stanton, Delaware.

Garret O’Rourke, manager of Juddmonte’s Kentucky operation, would not provide details of Media Empire’s condition but confirmed his identity and that he sold to Rickman last year for future use as a stallion since he could never race.

Rickman tried to breed Media Empire this year, but the colt could not mount mares properly, so Rickman used him as a teaser at Williams Grove Farm near Chesapeake City, Maryland, where Rickman stands another son of Danzig, Zignew.

"He’s got a bad back—he’s sort of a wobbler—but we tried to breed him anyway," Rickman said on Wednesday. "He was a good teaser … but we couldn’t breed him, so I gave him to a guy who had five mares and said he could stabilize the horse to breed."

Rickman declined to identify the individual he said he gave Media Empire to, and Young said the name Bob Thompson was listed on the Coggins report drafted a week before the sale. O’Rourke said Juddmonte had no knowledge of Rickman giving the horse away or that he had ultimately ended up at the New Holland Auction.

"For as much care as we give our horses, this is an embarrassment," O’Rourke said. "We made sure it worked out as well as it could have, and hopefully, this won’t happen again. The end result will be good for the horse and the retirement foundation."

Rickman overnighted Young a check for $500 on Wednesday to cover the expenses of saving the colt and he told her that he wished to discuss the possibility of him further helping Lost and Found financially as well as find Media Empire a good home.

"I feel terrible about what happened, but I have no control over what these rotten [people] in the business do with horses," Rickman said. "I’m getting all the bad publicity for this, but it’s not my fault. There are more crooks in the horse business than in Sing Sing Prison."

Young said her veterinarian examined Media Empire on July 21, and he tested negative for any neurological problems but had what Young called a "sticky right hock" as well as a recently popped abscess on the same leg. Young added that Media Empire had been "trotting, bucking, walking, and playing in his paddock" since arriving at Lost and Found, and the veterinarian said Media Empire could be a stallion with time off and conditioning.

As for pursuing a future for the colt, Young is working with Kim Zito, wife of trainer Nick Zito, on speaking with several agents to help her appraise Media Empire’s value if he is able to breed. Young said she received a $25,000 offer for the colt on Tuesday, and others have come in since.—Ed DeRosa

War Admiral
Jul. 24, 2004, 08:50 AM
He is gorgeous. Blessings on you Laurierace for rescuing this wonderful horse!! Wish it was me!

...And JHC on a RAFT, what are people THINKING when horses like this get sent to New Holland??!!!

BaldEagle
Jul. 24, 2004, 11:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Las Olas:
ANY horse that I have bred will be welcome back to my farm. I may not have room to keep them forever, but I will retrain them or have them trained at my expense and then find them a home. Every industry needs to clean up after itself. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Don't expect everyone to follow in your footsteps...
Most of them will give the exact same answer as they did. "Once sold its no longer our business anymore".

Hard to believe that such a nice and good looking colt ended down there.
I would like to know the reason why it ended there. It looks that we do not know everything about this horse.

If he is sound, in due time I need a deal like this one. Well in fact it doesn't need to be sooo goood http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Epitome:
but to expect that anybody would or could be responsible for everything that they have ever sold is ridiculous. It is a business just like any other. It would be wonderful if it were possible, but it isn't. Do regular horse people buy back every horse that they have ever had? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
See how come a Greenie in his/her first post knows how the world we live is.
Of course it is impossible and economically unfeasible...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Laurierace:
Today the rescue that I volunteer for bought a 3 yr old colt out of the kill pen at New Holland for $175. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally from the ThoroughbredTimes :
Young operates Lost and Found Horse Rescue in York, Pennsylvania, and despite a sold tag already adorning Media Empire, Young knew the colt was one she had to have. She found the buyer, negotiated a $225 price, and took the colt back to Lost and Found. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Laurierace:
There is something that doesn't match. So the "Rescue you volunteer for bough the colt for $175" as you say, right ?
But the article says that this price was for a Canadian slaugther company (Ah always those canadians) and the "rescue" negotiated $225 for it.
So where is the exact truth stands ?
Or could it be that the Canadian "interference" in this case is just "film" to turn the rescue even more heroic, another tearful story for the website, or another banner for the anti-slaughter movement? Is that so ?
Glad the colt got out of the bad situation where he was, but I am very picky with these type of details. It happens that I just love accuracy and truth. Could you explain the discrepancy for me, please ?

Was the horse's last owner identified ?

Laurierace
Jul. 24, 2004, 11:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by_ Laurierace_:
Today the rescue that I volunteer for bought a 3 yr old colt out of the kill pen at New Holland for $175. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally from the _ThoroughbredTimes _:
Young operates Lost and Found Horse Rescue in York, Pennsylvania, and despite a sold tag already adorning Media Empire, Young knew the colt was one she had to have. She found the buyer, negotiated a $225 price, and took the colt back to Lost and Found. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
_ Laurierace_:
There is something that doesn't match. So the "_Rescue you volunteer for_" bough the colt for $175 as you say, right ?
But the article says that this price was for a Canadian slaugther company (Ah always those canadians) and the "rescue" negotiated $225 for it.
So where is the exact truth stands ?
Or is it that the Canadian "interference" here is just "film" to turn the rescue even more heroic, another tearful story for the website, or another banner for the anti-slaughter movement? Is that so ?
I am very picky with these type of details. It happens that I just love accuracy and truth. Could you explain the discrepancy for me, please ?[/QUOTE]

If you read the article, the horse was bought by a killer buyer for $175. We paid them $50 plus the $175 they paid for the horse. This is how we always do it. Until a horse actually goes through the ring, you don't know where they are going to end up. We wait until they are sold and in the kill pen so we know that we are rescuing a horse that actually is in need of rescuing.
The last owner is clearly identified and quoted in the above article as well. As far as your claims that the story could be padded to make the resuce more heroic, and more of a tear jerker is silly. People who care about the story will care about it the way it really is. People who are pro slaughter wouldn't care if the Pope personally handed Smarty Jones over to slaughter. You either care or you don't and nothing added or left out will change that.

BaldEagle
Jul. 24, 2004, 12:04 PM
OK. So "the rescue you volunteer with" DID NOT buy the horse for $175 as you initially said but for $225 as the article said. Correction dully noted.

If you always wait, as you say, "until they are sold and in the kill pen so we know that we are rescuing a horse that actually is in need of rescuing." it seems a risk that you could face with someone that refuses to sell the horse back to you and take it to is final destination. (I know money is scarce and every dollar counts)

Anyway there is something else that I am also wondering about. What is the ongoing "meat price" in the US?

If I have it correct a horse of this type should fetch around $400. Why $225 only ?

Laurierace
Jul. 24, 2004, 01:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaldEagle:
OK. So "_the rescue you volunteer with_" DID NOT buy the horse for $175 as you initially said but for $225 as the article said. Correction dully noted.

If you always wait, as you say, "_until they are sold and in the kill pen so we know that we are rescuing a horse that actually is in need of rescuing._" it seems a risk that you could face with someone that refuses to sell the horse back to you and take it to is final destination. (I know money is scarce and every dollar counts)

Anyway there is something else that I am also wondering about. What is the ongoing "meat price" in the US?

If I have it correct a horse of this type should fetch around $400. Why $225 only ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately there are always many to chose from in the kill pen. We select the one or two that we want and if we can't get them, we move on to a different choice. At this point it is a much bigger problem deciding which ones of the many to save than it is getting someone to sell us one.
The meat prices are in the $300-$400 range right now, but this horse was skinny meaning less meat and a stallion. The killer buyer now has to segregate stallions from the other horses. It makes the too much of a hassle to pay full price for.

Gallop On
Jul. 24, 2004, 03:31 PM
I just read about this in tb times. Congrats! Sounds like you got a good one!

gobabygo
Jul. 24, 2004, 10:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Laurierace:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Las Olas:
Good job Laurierace. I have to say that I'm very disappointed in Juddmonte, though. Do you remember who you spoke with. I know a lot of the people over there, and you can bet I'm going to give them hell over this. As far as I'm concerned, if you breed a horse, that horse is your responsibility. ANY horse that I have bred will be welcome back to my farm. I may not have room to keep them forever, but I will retrain them or have them trained at my expense and then find them a home. Every industry needs to clean up after itself. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't ask her name, but it sounded like a somewhat older woman. I just talked to whoever answered the phone if that helps you any.
The DRF article will be published on Sunday. Not sure if the part about them not being interested in him will be in there or not. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

sandra volpe at juddmonte is not one of the most pleasant people there, if she was the one you spoke with.

can anyone tell me how to post a picture?? i have one of burning sun i'd like to post.

drifting cloud
Jul. 25, 2004, 05:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gobabygo:
can anyone tell me how to post a picture?? i have one of burning sun i'd like to post. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You have to pay for a premium membership. Or, you can e-mail the picture to someone with a premium membership and ask them to post it for you. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif If someone is a premium member, it says so under the screen name (at the top and left of each post).

Epitome
Jul. 25, 2004, 08:26 AM
Am I the only one who finds this whole situation a little ironic? Here we have a horse rescue whose own website states :

"This “Protective Ownership” means that the L&FHRF is the sole owner with the rules for adoption simple: don’t breed, race or resell any equine. By retaining ownership, we legally have the ability to reclaim a horse at any time and place it in a more suitable environment if a current situation is deemed unsatisfactory. While this “tough love” rule may seem extreme, it is founded with only the best intentions for each and every equine."

But let them get their hands on a horse who can actually make them some cash, and that all goes out the window! I mean, nobody else who adopts an animal from this rescue can breed them, or sell them outright, but it's ok for them to do it, as long as they can make a few bucks from it. I have no problem with profit, and I fully understand that many horses can be helped with the proceeds from selling Media Empire for breeding, but I do think that perhaps the rescue needs to get off their high horse a bit if they are going to turn around and do exactly what they complain about other people doing. Either everybody gets to do whatever they want with their own horses, or they all follow the same rules. Be honest and admit that you are no better than anyone else when it comes to making money, and that all principles can be compromised if the price is right.

I fully expect to get flamed for saying this, but I think that it's a valid point. I have attempted to adopt horses from "rescue organizations" like this one many times, only to get a list of rules that they expect me to abide by, including the one about not really owning the horse that I adopt. Frankly, I have a real problem with this. If a rescue wants to dictate how a horse is going to be cared for, then they had best do the caring themsleves, with their own money. I have been in the horse business my whole life, I own my own farm, and I pay all my horse's bills, without needing to ask strangers for donations to do so. My horses get the best possible care, and I pay for all of it myself. I also rescue many horses off the racetrack, and find them good homes, or keep them myself, if they have health issues that make it seem like the best course for their future welfare. But as their owner, I expect to be fully in charge of them, and not have to answer to someone else who hasn't been paying for their upkeep, or doing any of the labor involved with it. If a rescue wants to maintain control, then let them also maintain the bills. If not, then let the person who is footing those bills do as they see fit.

I just find it a little hypocritical for a rescue to forbid anyone else to breed one of their horses, and then to turn around and do it themselves, in order to profit from it. You are either a rescue, and worried about the horse's well being first and foremost, or you are in it for the money, and sell to the highest bidder. Decide which it is going to be, and get on with it.

Las Olas
Jul. 26, 2004, 08:20 AM
Toadies Mom - Of course I'm not mad at you! I just thought that what you said was an out of line generalization. There are some crappy people in this industry, but I've met some really great people in the oddest places, who have done a lot to help me. I have had some bad experiances, mostly with trainers, but I try to get over it and move on (but I have my moments, too http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif). We're still on for drinks at Keeneland!

BaldEagle - No, not everyone will follow in my footsteps. Maybe that's why they make money and I only get a tax write-off every year! Good thing I have a day job. I also realize that large scale breeding isn't for me. I love the horses too much on a personal level. So, maybe that's a flaw, but I can live with it. I'm also not against eating horses, or against people selling them for meat. It's the suffering on their way there that gets me. And, the fact that it's so under-regulated and you have to wonder how many stolen animals end up there.

Epitome - I agree with you completely. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif In my opinion, though, the horse shouldn't be bred and neither should other rescue horses. My reasoning is that when a horse ends up in a kill pen, it's not so much an individual that feels the animal is worthless, but the entire market must feel that way or the animal would've been sold elsewhere. The $25,000 that was offered may have been before the people making the offer realized that the horse has a problem. If three previous owners have decided that he can't breed (Juddmonte, then Rickman, then the guy with the 5 mares), then I think it wouldn't be in the horses best interest to try again. I don't have first hand knowledge of this situation, though, and there are always exceptions.

NMS
Jul. 26, 2004, 10:31 AM
Epitome--thank you! The irony is not lost, but the opportunity certainly is.

Nancy

Flash44
Jul. 26, 2004, 11:49 AM
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Instead of looking for the slightest little thing to criticize (Bald Eagle and Epitome), i was thinking, "Wow, imagine how many more horses they could save by making money off this one."

Most rescues have rules in place because no matter how carefully you place an animal, there is no guarantee the new owner(adopter, whatever) will take good care of the animal.

BaldEagle
Jul. 26, 2004, 11:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Epitome:
Am I the only one who finds this whole situation a little ironic? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No you are not the only one.

I find that “tough love” rule just plain abuse because that get the money and keep the merchandise too… or better, that send you the horse for you to foot its bills and they retain all the rights on the horse…
A pre-screening of those interested in adopting it seems more then reasonable.
A follow up to see how things are going, seems fine too.
To retain ownership and dictate the terms of just about anything after pocketing the money is just plain “abuse” not to say something else a little nastier.

I would NEVER adopt a horse in such conditions and I discourage anyone of doing so because it can create situations extremely expensive to correct.

In the article we can see:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>that “he has a condition in his hind legs” but they declined to say what the problem really is.
<LI>Then somebody complaints about the “bad publicity” but doesn’t make any effort to put the blame where it should be.
<LI>Then it was also “declined” to name the last owner of the horse, the most important person in this whole affair.
<LI>Then the price initially paid was one, and the article says it was another…
[/list]
all things that make you go hhuummmm

I don’t find the whole affair “ironic”. In fact, at this point, I don’t have first hand knowledge of some details to find the right adjective for all this.

As you saw in one of my posts above I started making some questions about certain “discrepancies” in what is being said about this “story” by people directly involved in this events.
However I stopped making more questions about this because I am not in a position right now to spend time, energy and resources to find out exactly what is going on. If I was not in the “tight corner” that I am and I would be talking to a lot of people to dig the whole and complete story about this horse and how he ended up in that auction. The way the “story” is told and how fast it found its way to the press just shows that we don’t know everything about it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Epitome:
I fully expect to get flamed for saying this, but I think that it's a valid point. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not by me. I look at most “horse rescues” with a weary eye.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Epitome:

If a rescue wants to dictate how a horse is going to be cared for, then they had best do the caring themselves, with their own money. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is another story. Many are waiting for a bill to increase the number of “pensioners” and taxpayer’s dollars to foot the costs and boost their “business” (so to speak).

Want a horse? Buy it from a trainer.
Plenty of them available in the CANTER lists and elsewhere. The trainers also need to sell them and go on to train the next one. That’s their livelihood.
Its cheaper, safer, no constraints, no “tough love” rules and, for better or for worse, you have the ownership of the horse.
Let the rescues do what they want with the horses they have with their own money.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flash44:
Instead of looking for the slightest little thing to criticize (Bald Eagle and Epitome), i was thinking, "Wow, imagine how many more horses they could save by making money off this one." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not at the cost of breaking their own rules that they impose on everybody else. This is not the slightest little thing" but a very important and worrisome rule.
The "look at what I say and not at what I do" style is completely unacceptable nowadays... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

BaldEagle
Jul. 26, 2004, 12:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Las Olas:
Maybe that's why they make money and I only get a tax write-off every year! Good thing I have a day job. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hope it will never happen, but if you have a "rainy day" in your life, you are going to regret it. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Epitome
Jul. 26, 2004, 12:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flash44:
Instead of looking for the slightest little thing to criticize (Bald Eagle and Epitome), i was thinking, "Wow, imagine how many more horses they could save by making money off this one."

Most rescues have rules in place because no matter how carefully you place an animal, there is no guarantee the new owner(adopter, whatever) will take good care of the animal. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If this is true, then why not offer the rest of the horses up for sale outright? After all, all of the rpoceeds could help many more horses? It's the $$$$ talking, not concern about horses right now, at least where this rescue is concerned.

I'm not disagreeing that many horses can be saved with the cash gotten from selling Media Empire for breeding. What I have a problem with is the fact that this rescue specifically forbids the breeding of their horses, but is willing to sell this one specifically for breeding purposes, simply because they can get big bucks. If they want to be a non profit rescue, fine. If they want to be a for-profit sales barn, then admit it, and quit pretending otherwise.

If you follow your logic through to the end, then it would be ok for me to give this rescue $25,000 and then send the horse back to the killers, if I wanted to. After all, many more horses could be saved with the money, right? And before you have a fit, that really is what you're saying.
If the point of retaining control and not breeding a rescued horse is to guarantee that the horse will have a good home for life, and they relinquish control over this one and allow him to be bred, then they are basically saying that it is ok for him to be put at risk for the good of the rest.

Flash44
Jul. 26, 2004, 03:11 PM
Totally NOT what I am saying.

It's pretty rare to have this kind of horse come through the bottom of the barrel auction ring. Even if the money made off this horse goes directly into someone's pocket and they use it to remodel the master bathroom, WHO CARES. The horse did not go to the killers and is most likely having a much better life because of the person who saw the opportunity and took the risk.

No one looks at a stallion and does not think about using it for breeding.

SeaOat
Jul. 28, 2004, 01:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flash44:
No one looks at a stallion and does not think about using it for breeding. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not true....I look at them and think "snip-snip". I also think one must see the forest through the trees, with the goal being to SLOW the population and set an example. Not make any exceptions, $25,000. or otherwise (choke-sputter-cough...keeping the forest in mind w/ the message you send vs. horses saved w/ the $$ recieved). Most would be appalled to hear of a small animal from the local pound being used for breeding, I see a good reason why they insist you spay or neuter as a condition to adoption.
Regardless, after reading this horse's history, seeing his breeding, seeing his photo, hearing his repo problems of past, I think he contributes best as a gelding. I congradulate all in their rescue work but must admit I was sorry to hear he was being considered for breeding. With adoption, I feel the same as Epitome....yes he might well produce something of talent and make everyone go ahh, but the message sent to people adopting stallions AND mares is one of "I too can breed & succeed". A bad message indeed that counter serves the purpose.

Epitome
Jul. 28, 2004, 02:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flash44:
Totally NOT what I am saying.

It's pretty rare to have this kind of horse come through the bottom of the barrel auction ring. Even if the money made off this horse goes directly into someone's pocket and they use it to remodel the master bathroom, WHO CARES. The horse did not go to the killers and is most likely having a much better life because of the person who saw the opportunity and took the risk.

No one looks at a stallion and does not think about using it for breeding. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, if I call and ask to buy one of their mares outright for breeding, are they going to cheerfully turn over the papers and say, "Good luck at the races"? I somehow doubt it.
I just don't see how they can justify making an exception for this horse, simply because of $$$$.

Jessi P
Jul. 28, 2004, 05:22 PM
While I can understand both sides, and yes the $25k will be very beneficial for many many horses think about it this way:

If you were adopting a mare out the max # of foals she can possibly produce (to contribute to horses in kill pens) is SO much smaller than the same # for a stallion. Ok so he wont be in Ky breeding 50+ mares, but the max a mare can produce is 1 a year barring twins. Just food for thought. I honestly dont know what I would do if it was up to me... $25k goes a long way towards rescuing and caring for other horses, esp when its invested such as in facilities/premises for rescues - would make nice down payment anyway, or if premises arent a concern it could be invested and the interest is used or reinvested.

gobabygo
Aug. 1, 2004, 06:51 AM
drifting cloud-thanks for that info. i'll see who i can get to post that pic.

i also found this on the drf website-

* Lost and Found Horses, which bought the 3-year-old Danzig colt Media Empire for $250 from a slaughter auction, has decided not to sell the horse, according to the group's founder, Kelly Young. Young said the group has decided to keep the horse but has not decided whether to geld him or breed him. The colt, she said, is in good health, though he is undernourished and has a pinched nerve in his back.

BaldEagle
Aug. 1, 2004, 09:42 AM
Can I know what is the drf website ? Is that "Daily Racing Form" ?

I think some sense went to those heads at the rescue and that might well have come as a result of several "discussions" in different Forums criticizing their handling of the issue...

I even have some serious doubts about the whole affair.
Horse rescues... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

LCR
Aug. 1, 2004, 10:18 AM
Reading over the forum replies is very painful! Many of you are nit picking, sour grapes, the whole smear-- Read your comments--many of them are like the "worst" of the horse industry.

Can't you be elated that someone took the time to recognize "quality" in the kill pen and rescued this young stallion?

Please give someone credit for once and back off!!!

free
Aug. 1, 2004, 11:10 AM
LCR...I couldn't agree more. So many of the posters are STUCK in their own issues and can't SEE beyond them.

Epitome
Aug. 1, 2004, 11:27 AM
Personally, I think that all of your "horse rescue" types are stuck on your own issues. I am thrilled that Media Empire was rescued. If you read my posts, I rescue plenty of horses myself.
But I am appalled that this rescue would consider breeding this stallion, especially when they have a strict no-breeding policy at their rescue.

This stallion is not really breeding material, and likely isn't even sound enough to breed. But let those $$$ get in the rescue's eyes, and all of their good works go out the window. They have gone from rescuing a nice animal from the kill pen straight to trying to breed more mediocre stock that will stand a good chance of winding up there themselves. Either they don't believe in breeding rescued animals, or they do. They just look really bad when they say that no one else can breed any of their rescues, but by golly, they are going to start themsleves.

BaldEagle
Aug. 1, 2004, 12:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LCR:
Reading over the forum replies is very painful!
Please give someone credit for once and back off!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't find it "convenient" but if this is "painful" I would really like to see what your reaction would be if I posted exactly what I think about the whole affair...

I never backoff from anything...

free
Aug. 1, 2004, 01:15 PM
Epitome...rather than wade...in your opinion, why is this stallion not of breedable quality? I thought that the vet found no issues that could be passed on through breeding?

LCR
Aug. 1, 2004, 01:17 PM
Has anyone read a veterinarian's health report on this stallion? Those of you opposed to breeding him--have you actually handled and seen this young horse in the flesh. There are many reasons that this horse is perhaps unsound, and many of these problems do not prevent using him as a stallion. The blood is there and DANZIG is retired. Use him for sport horse breeding! BUT first find out if this is a lethal problem!

Just give the new owners credit for having some common sense please!

Besides for $225-- this is cheap publicity focusing on the fact that GOOD horses do go to killer buyers. You can bet that there will be many buyers at the next auction and some of them will take home horses they would not have otherwise purchased.

Pitbulls don't backoff either--they just bite and hang on whether its a good thing or a bad thing. Doesn't mean anything, as its pure instinct!

BaldEagle
Aug. 1, 2004, 02:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LCR:
Besides for $225-- this is cheap publicity focusing on the fact that GOOD horses do go to killer buyers. You can bet that there will be many buyers at the next auction and some of them will take home horses they would not have otherwise purchased. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Finally somebody is getting really close to what I was willing to say about what I think this whole affair is, and didn't, because I am not 100% sure and don't have the time and the will to check everywhere. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
If I was proved correct in my assessment of this affair I don't know what I could do or say. Better leave things as they are, at least for now.
You must be a very bright woman http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

No "LCR" GOOD horses don't end up in auctions. Only those that their market value alive are below their market value dead, end up where this one is supposed to have been found.

BTW I just hate PitBulls. If it would depend on me that breed would only exist in dip frozen DNA form. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
I never act by instinct. Always trying to use the brains to control all kinds of resoning and emotions http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
Allowing one's heart to control something is too dangerous.

LCR
Aug. 1, 2004, 04:53 PM
UNFORTUNATELY "GOOD HORSES" end up at auctions all the time!

There is a Thoroughbred stallion standing not that far from me, that was bought off the killer truck, on his way to DeKalb, from Arlington race track. He was lame and the owners did not want to put any time in him!

He is now siring some nice foals--is not lame--and the owner ended up with a bargain.

HAPPENS ALL THE TIME! We are living in the land of disposibles -- many do not want to put any time, money or patience into rehabilitation or whatever!

And, I am not against sending horses off to end up on someones plate, IF treated humanely in the process!

free
Aug. 1, 2004, 04:55 PM
BaldEagle...I have some questions regarding your post;

1.what you were willing to say, but DIDN'T????

2.then innuendos (that aren't clear)?

3.GOOD horses don't end up in auctions?

Surely you jest. There are numerous 'good' horses that HAVE been found at the cheap auctions and gone on to highly successful careers in other venues and even return in their own. I know of one Saddlebred that was bought off a "killer" truck and went back to showing at the top levels. No one knows how he fell through the cracks. What about the famous jumper named Snowman? Others successful horses narrowly missed getting ON the truck Rattle and Hum is one. So if LCR prompts people to look at these auctions...that's wonderful"

Laurierace
Aug. 2, 2004, 04:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaldEagle:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by _LCR_:
Besides for $225-- this is cheap publicity focusing on the fact that GOOD horses do go to killer buyers. You can bet that there will be many buyers at the next auction and some of them will take home horses they would not have otherwise purchased. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Finally somebody is getting really close to what I was willing to say about what I think this whole affair is, and didn't, because I am not 100% sure and don't have the time and the will to check everywhere. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
If I was proved correct in my assessment of this affair I don't know what I could do or say. Better leave things as they are, at least for now.
You must be a very bright woman http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

No "_LCR_" GOOD horses don't end up in auctions. Only those that their market value alive are below their market value dead, end up where this one is supposed to have been found.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You really should be ashamed of yourself for saying what you have said. You obviously haven't looked into this specific issue, nor rescue in general. I haven't got a clue what you are alluding to when you talk about where this horse was supposed to be found. Do you think he was really in a cushy stall somewhere and we starved him and made up a pack of lies about who had him and how he got in that condition? Besides being criminal, that would be borderline insane, and I find your suggestion reprehensible.

Between all the rescues that I volunteer for we adopt about 300 horses per year. If you asked those adopters if their horses were worth killer price, they would laugh at you. We have had horses go on to compete at the highest levels of many disciplines as well as being loyal memebers of the family.

Usually when people start spewing filth such as you have, they are doing it just to ease their conscience for their involvement with the problem. Congratulations, I hope you sleep well with your rationalizations.

Rusty Stirrup
Aug. 2, 2004, 05:36 AM
End of the novel: Horse is bred-son falls through cracks-is found at same killer pen-nickers for camera-fade to black. JMHO

Rusty Stirrup
Aug. 2, 2004, 05:38 AM
Of course I meant "end of film".

BaldEagle
Aug. 2, 2004, 07:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LCR:
UNFORTUNATELY "GOOD HORSES" end up at auctions all the time! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by free:
There are numerous 'good' horses that HAVE been found at the cheap auctions and gone on to highly successful careers in other venues and even return in their own. I know of one Saddlebred that was bought off a "killer" truck and went back to showing at the top levels. No one knows how he fell through the cracks. What about the famous jumper named Snowman? Others successful horses narrowly missed getting ON the truck Rattle and Hum is one. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
For everything in life there are some exceptions that just confirms the rules. It’s not what happens to one or two horses in tens of thousands that can be used to change anything of what I said.
When free says “no one knows how he fell through the cracks” she is implicitly admitting this. Normally they don’t fell through cracks but they are victim of their “market value". At a certain point, regardless of the reason, nobody wanted to buy a certain horse for more then the value of its meat and the horse end up in what you call “a killer auction” which I also take as an unfair assumption because the auction has nothing to do with the intentions of the buyers that can be many different ones. People also unffairly treat those auctions for reasons that are well known.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LCR:
He was lame and the owners did not want to put any time in him! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

At a certain point the owner of this horse decided “not to put any time in him” as you say. Eventually tried to sell it and found no buyers probably for the very same reason, and send it to an auction. Again LCR, maybe unwillingly, is confirming what I said. At the time of the decision made by its owner, its market value alive was zero and was sent to an auction to be sold for whatever price someone is willing to pay for it.
If the person that bought it at the auction had stepped in earlier may be it might had not ended down there.
That’s why I have the uttermost respect and appreciation for what CANTER as well as some horsy Forums does. Advertising the available horses in very attractive (and addictive) web sites and volunteering in the tracks not only to take pictures for the website but also to help prospective buyers find what they want and try to place as many horses as possible before a drastic decision is made.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by free:
BaldEagle...I have some questions regarding your post;
1.what you were willing to say, but DIDN'T????
2.then innuendos (that aren't clear)?
3.GOOD horses don't end up in auctions? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are being too curious. If I didn’t want to say it for the very reasons stated in my post, its not because you asked that I am going to change my position. And my posts are always very clear for those that want to read its exact content without undue inferences or illations.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by free:
So if LCR prompts people to look at these auctions...that's wonderful" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are misquoting me and again interpreting in a wrong way. I have nothing against going to look at these auctions. I find it wonderful myself too.
Try to read my post again.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Laurierace:
You obviously haven't looked into this specific issue, nor rescue in general. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You might be wrong. One doesn’t need to be an “expert” in this area to see a ting or two that are “non compliant” with one’s way of thinking.
Some do nothing, others do very little. From those that do a lot, almost all use prices and terms of doing it that, in my point of view, are absolutely unacceptable. I consider their “contracts” just pure abuse. To adopt an animal, these “rescues” impose a contract that is more stringent then those used to adopt a human being, and you already know from many of my previous posts that I NEVER put an animal ahead of a human being, regardless of the type of animal or the reasons behind those procedures. They impose conditions to those that put up the money and foot the bill to maintain the horse alive that they are willing to forget as soon as their own material interests arises. They keep the money AND the merchandise. They… well… you will never see me signing one of those contracts.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Laurierace:
Do you think he was really in a cushy stall somewhere and we starved him and made up a pack of lies about who had him and how he got in that condition? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is your own illation, not mine.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Laurierace:
Between all the rescues that I volunteer for we adopt about 300 horses per year. If you asked those adopters if their horses were worth killer price, they would laugh at you. We have had horses go on to compete at the highest levels of many disciplines. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You completely fail to grasp my point. Reviewing, even superficially, Einstein’s “Theory of Relativity” would help you on that.
Even in some of the examples given in the posts above, it is absolutely clear that, at the time that the decision to send a horse to auction was made they were NOT “good” horses at all for one reason or another. Please try to understand this. One was said to be even LAME.

What those that bought the horses cited above did with their intervention was to change those conditions by heavily investing in the horse, time, money, training, health care, whatever that TURNED those unwanted, BAD horses into good ones.
To help you grasp what I mean with this, I ask you a question. Give me (more then one) example of a horse that went STRAIGHT from an auction to the show ring or to the stardom of the show jumping. And I mean straight, directly, immediately without any further investment in training, rest, TLC anything... Got it now ?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Laurierace:
Usually when people start spewing filth such as you have, they are doing it just to ease their conscience for their involvement with the problem. Congratulations, I hope you sleep well with your rationalizations. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Since you didn’t grasp at all what I meant with my post, its obvious that your illations and inferences are dead wrong. There is no filth anywhere and I am not at all involved with the problem.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Laurierace:
...as well as being loyal members of the family.
Congratulations, I hope you sleep well with your rationalizations. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That’s another very big difference between us. I don’t have family members with hoofs. They all have feet…
In fact I am not sleeping well in the last couple of years or so but that is for other reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with horsy stuff.

Heather
Aug. 2, 2004, 09:05 AM
Just want to comment on the notion that "good horses don't go to slaugter".

Well, I've found that to be both true and not true.

We have a horse we got for free of the meat truck. He is 17.2, gorgeous, a ten mover and has a world class jump. He has multiple ribbons at the prelim level in eventing, and is aiming for a three day. By all quantitaive measures he is more than a "good" horse.

That being said, when we got him, it was very clear why he had ended up with the killers. He was a miserable spook and very barn/buddy sour, and this behavior manifested itself in violent and dangerous ways. In the process of re-schooling him, both my husband and myself were injured and required a trip to the emergency room. I fell off of him more than any horse Ihave ever owned or ridden. He has a spin bolt rear maneuver that is second to none. He trusted noone and nothing. He was going to get away before anything could hurt him, and if you were in the way that was just too bad for you.

It's not his fault, he had terrible handling for much of his life, and got bullied and beaten a lot. But it doesnt change the fact that I was a sucker for his face marking, and he was a dangerous horse.

We've had him for 6 years, and though he is generally easy to handle these days, and is a successful competitor, you just have to know that he has quirks that will never be disolved. He is claustrophobic in the extreme (dark barns, dark, enclosed tunnel like areas on the trail, etc, will bring out the spin), and will still balk when asked to leave a friend. We generally take him to events alone, because if he rides solo in the trailer, he is good, but if we take another horse he is a monster all day.

So while he's a good horse, any horse in the killer pens is there for a reason, either physical or mental. Now, that doesn't make them unworthy of assitance, and often only a minimum of effort can fix whatever the issue is. But, sound, sane, easy, young horses do not end up in the kill pens. Fancy horses with screws loose do, nice horses with soundness issues do. Old horses do. Again, I'm not saying it's OK, or that there isn't value to be found in these horses. But let's be honest about what's there and why.

Oh, and I don't like the black and white, pro or anti slaughter views given here. I'm not anti-slaughter, but I take exception to being compared to the Pope donating Smarty Jones to New Holland. Rather I consider myself "sorrowfully accpeting". I wish no horses had to go to slaughter. I accept that some will. I believe that if a horse has served you faithfully, and especially has made you a ton of money, you have a duty to provide for it.

Laurierace
Aug. 2, 2004, 09:59 AM
Face the Music
10-year-old
Thoroughbred
Mare
16.2 hands
Slaughter rescue. We bought this lovely chestnut mare out of the meat pen on Monday, and took her to a hunter show on Wednesday. She's clearly got show experience, knows her leads, jumps beautifully and is over-all, a very nice girl. She's very kind and sensible and would be suitable for an intermediate rider working with a trainer.
back to top.

And with that I am officially done. Best wishes to all of you. PS. I saw this mare at the show with my own eyes. She wasn't made up either.

windycity
Aug. 2, 2004, 10:20 AM
Laurierace-

I've been lurking...sorry you have had some of the usual stiring of the hornets nest with this case. I think it's great -- the story and the outcome.

On a public forum people are going to air their opinions; clearly or not; kindly or not. But I for one appreciate you posting on this and I am sure many of us sould love to hear updates. He is a lovely boy and I am thrilled he was saved.

Best of luck.

BaldEagle
Aug. 2, 2004, 10:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heather:
So while he's a good horse, any horse in the killer pens is there for a reason, either physical or mental. Now, that doesn't make them unworthy of assistance, and often only a minimum of effort can fix whatever the issue is. But, sound, sane, easy, young horses do not end up in the kill pens. Fancy horses with screws loose do, nice horses with soundness issues do. Old horses do. Again, I'm not saying it's OK, or that there isn't value to be found in these horses. But let's be honest about what's there and why. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WOW I was starting to think that "I" have a "loose screw" because it seemed to be the only one seing the things as they really are.

I ABSOLUTELY agree with you and praise those that go there to see what can be done to save a few and try to find the eventual "hidden" value to be found in these horses as you say...

But as I said before really "good horses" don't end in up auctions of that kind.

Those that want some "legislation" we have been talking about recently are the ones interested in spreeding this false notion for political reasons...

BaldEagle
Aug. 2, 2004, 10:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by windycity:
I think it's great -- the story and the outcome.

He is a lovely boy and I am thrilled he was saved.
Best of luck. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I absolutely agree that it is a lovely boy.
The "story" is also great no doubt. I repeat the "story". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

windycity
Aug. 2, 2004, 10:51 AM
You guys...if you are going to make allegations, then get some proof and then come back here and post it.

We all get the idea. You don't think the story is being portrayed honestly, you don't have respect for the way it's being handled, but to make insinuations and generalizations without getting proof and putting your money where your mouth is is just wasted energy, IMO.

Now you may reply that these are my own "illations" and I am misunderstanding your posts and misinterperating (sp...yikes..sorry)you, yada, yada, yada.....if that is the case as I said, be clearer or come back with proof.

I also think it is a generalization to say that no good horses with no problems end up in the kill pen. There is a different story for each, and yes, lots for the reasons you have mentioned above...some will need only minimal work to be the "perfect" horse.....but some end up there because of the financial choices of their owners and that's it. NO horse is perfect and many of the imperfect horses of the world are sold who could have just as easily ended up in the pen.......sheeeesh.... I thought I was just lurking...what happeeeened? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Heather
Aug. 2, 2004, 11:06 AM
First of all, I don't want to be lumped in as not believeing laurierace, and I am commending her in the extreme for what she's done. I think it's despicable that the horse ended up in those striaghts, and I'm thrilled she found him, saved him, and is having such a good outcome.

If your last post was directed at me, then I'm sorry if you think I was bashing you in anyway Laurie, I was not, at all. The work you and people like you do is invaluable, and I am certain there is a special place in heavan for you.

If the lovely mare you found and rescued does not end up to have any issues, then you have indeed made a great find, and how lucky will the person be that ends up with her, and how lucky the horse to have been found.

But, I work with OTTBs, and I so very often see people dumping them after they purchased them from the track or from a rescue, because their hearts outstrip their training, riding, and horse mangement skills. The majority ofhorses from an auction or coming off the track will need expereinced horseman--either because they have physical issues that need care and management or because they have mental ones. I don't think we as a community do horses any favors when we act as though this isn't so, and anyone can handle these horses. These animals need and deserve caring, loving, expereinced homes who walk into this with their eyes wide open knowing what to expect. They should not be found homes just to find them homes, with people who have good hearts but no expereince, who in time will either pass them on, or not give them the home and care they deserve because of their inexpereince. It's a romantic notion to rescue a horse from slaughter, but as with anything in horses the romance is often not nearly as realistic as the daily grind of their care and training and management.

I would just hate to see someone read these boards, hear about, say, your lovely mare Laurie, go to New Hollland and buy something and end up with a horse that is dangerous to them, or requires care they are unable to provide, because they heard that the kill pens are filled with fabulous horses who just need loving homes.

The fact that I think this way does not IN ANY WAY, mean though that i don't think that people like you laurie are wonderful people' who do grand work with not nearly enough support. I respect you enourmously, and the fact that I tend to be a bit cynical, should not be taken as a personal afront to you at all.

BaldEagle
Aug. 2, 2004, 11:31 AM
Heather

Its not surprising that a person that works with OTTB's has a very reasonable and prudent position. You know what we are talking about and you also know what it takes to complete a rescue
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I would just hate to see someone read these boards, hear about, say, your lovely mare Laurie, go to New Hollland and buy something and end up with a horse that is dangerous to them, or requires care they are unable to provide, because they heard that the kill pens are filled with fabulous horses who just need loving homes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very very wise words Heather. The "rosy" picture that is portrayed in some of the rescues don't tell the whole story about how much talent is required, how much time and money need to be invested to be successful.
Most of the horses in those auctions are beyond any possible rescue.

BaldEagle
Aug. 2, 2004, 11:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by windycity:
I also think it is a generalization to say that no good horses with no problems end up in the kill pen. There is a different story for each, and yes, lots for the reasons you have mentioned above...some will need only minimal work to be the "perfect" horse.....but some end up there because of the financial choices of their owners and that's it. NO horse is perfect and many of the imperfect horses of the world are sold who could have just as easily ended up in the pen.......sheeeesh.... I thought I was just lurking...what happeeeened? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I don't mean that ALL the horses, 100% of them were beyond salvation. Of course I am sure that every now and then some good things with minor problems might turn up. But it require knowledge to pick that "hidden" value when it shows up. After this it requires a lot of talent to correct whatever issues they might have. Not for the average "lurking" guy here http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Epitome
Aug. 2, 2004, 11:48 AM
Laurierace

I doubt that I'll ever get an answer to this question, as you have avoided it so far, but how can you justify breeding this horse, based on Lost And Found's own criteria for adoption?

I applaud your having adopted him, but how can you even consider breeding him, when the rescue doesn't allow breeding of their adoptees.
I've seen this same question being asked on several differnt boards, but as yet have seen no answer, just the same replies with the same sort of insults that you are hurling around on this one.

I understand your wanting everyone to pat you on the back and tell you how wonderful you are, but any organization that begs for public funds in order to operate has to be accountable to that same public for how they handle their affairs, or they quickly lose the public's respect, just as your organization has lost mine.

I simply cannot take seriously any rescue who is so perfectly willing to bend their own rules just to make a profit. That sort of kills your credibility as far as doing what's best for the horse, and makes it seem as though you are more interested in what will bring in the most money for you.

By the way, is Lost and Found a registered non profit organization?

Laurierace
Aug. 2, 2004, 12:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Epitome:
Laurierace

I doubt that I'll ever get an answer to this question, as you have avoided it so far, but how can you justify breeding this horse, based on Lost And Found's own criteria for adoption?

I applaud your having adopted him, but how can you even consider breeding him, when the rescue doesn't allow breeding of their adoptees.
I've seen this same question being asked on several differnt boards, but as yet have seen no answer, just the same replies with the same sort of insults that you are hurling around on this one.

I understand your wanting everyone to pat you on the back and tell you how wonderful you are, but any organization that begs for public funds in order to operate has to be accountable to that same public for how they handle their affairs, or they quickly lose the public's respect, just as your organization has lost mine.

I simply cannot take seriously any rescue who is so perfectly willing to bend their own rules just to make a profit. That sort of kills your credibility as far as doing what's best for the horse, and makes it seem as though you are more interested in what will bring in the most money for you.

By the way, is Lost and Found a registered non profit organization? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know I said I was done, but I don't want you to think I am afraid to answer your questions. I have stated over and over again that I am a VOLUNTEER at several rescues including Lost and Found. I did not rescue him, I did not adopt him, and I am not going to breed him. What happens to him in the future is not my decision to make although I do have my own opinion obviously. Personally, I think this horse has already done his job by raising awareness both with the public and with some very influential people in the industry.
Yes, Lost and Found is a 503 C non profit, so whatever money generated by this horse either directly or indirectly, will not line anyone's pockets.
I don't want or need you to pat me on the back or tell me how wonderful I am. I know that the work that I do makes a difference, that is enough reward for me. I also don't feel that I have hurled insults nor anything else at anyone. Just sharing a event in my life. If it is of interest to you, read it, if it isn't then move on, no hard feelings.

free
Aug. 2, 2004, 12:19 PM
BaldEagle...to be 'beyond any possible rescue' they would have to be at death's door or totaly unmanageable. I have not inspected every cheap auction, but I am sure that you haven't either, so how can you make such ridiculous assumptions of percentages as 'most' are beyond any possible rescue?

I give credit to 'most' readers and potential buyers that they are not so naive as you would make them out to be, and that they are intelligent enough to think for themselves. Where there is life there is hope and I'm all for giving a horse a second chance.

Heather...most of YOUR posts are intelligent and right on (I actually seek them out). However, I did disagree with you somewhat on this one.

SeaOat
Aug. 2, 2004, 12:44 PM
Regardless of who adopts a horse or how splendid the filly/colt is, it should never be used for breeding more purebreds of same surplus. To do so is defeating the purpose and/by considering one horses life at the expense of too many others.
I frankly have stopped giving a poot about the people who selfishly see otherwise (within or outside of the adoption networks) and assume the more intelligent of this species will see the damage dream-on breeding causes and take on the attitude of the small animal spay/neuter mentality.
There are almost more TBs than cats needing homes, why in hell would anyone sans ego think they do any horse a service by adding to the ante? Primarily because of $$. Full stop.
And if you are a sucessful breeder you don't need to rumage around the kill-pens on treasure hunts. You recognize the need of these wonderful animals to either provide a service in a GOOD home or be (now here's that word pro-slaughter people never use) EUTHANIZED. Yes (side topic), we humanely euthanize scads of dogs and kittys, bunnies and guinea pigs every year......now, other than that word LIVESTOCK, why can't we provide the same neglect LAWS, RESPONSIBILITY and UNDERSTANDING to what has become our larger human companion (that is also over-populated)??
Several of you into breeding post photos/websites of your latest crop and oodles of people pop on and tell you what lovely babies you have.....good googly-goo. What a wonderful selection of short hipped, straight shouldered, long cannoned/pasturned, back at the knee (and pinched behind it as well), and so on and so on, assorted eye-sores. None of us has either the nads or the knowledge to say "Stop already!". It's like telling the bride her dress is ugly....only THAT would be rude and isn't likely to save a life.
So people, a lot of you anyway (no, not you but the other guy), are certainly standing and breeding some real sad individuals. The stallions around are the worst! I know people who'll get a free TB teaser and want to stand him! Heavens unleash if he's related to something.
Maybe if there were a show on the tube where people could bring all their finds & creations to be appraised by established professionals they'd accept/appreciate what they have for what it is and not what it could be. Oh yeah, PBS already does, we need a Race-Horse Roadshow.
If any doubt, I APPLAUDE the people envolved in adoption/rescue, very heartbreaking work on the front-lines. I simply differ with anyone who wants them placed in breeding homes.

windycity
Aug. 2, 2004, 12:46 PM
BaldEagle

Ok....perhaps I should have clarified but I didn't realize that by saying I was "lurking" anyone would assume that I have no knowledge or horse sense, experience or talent...I meant lurking on this topic. I imagine there are others who fall into the same lurking category.

I too work with OTTBs, am certified by the British Horse Society and have a filly of my own (bought through CANTER connections)who has taken extensive time and work to begin to uncover her true talent. So I am not talking out of my butt here.

I was calling Heather and you out on what Heather said..."So while he's a good horse, any horse in the killer pens is there for a reason, either physical or mental. Now, that doesn't make them unworthy of assistance, and often only a minimum of effort can fix whatever the issue is. But, sound, sane, easy, young horses do not end up in the kill pens. Fancy horses with screws loose do, nice horses with soundness issues do. Old horses do. Again, I'm not saying it's OK, or that there isn't value to be found in these horses. But let's be honest about what's there and why." And then you agreed with that statement -- so to me that does say that you felt 100% of horses in the pen are troubled somehow and my point was just that almost all horses have issues and all of the horses in the pen are there because the owner made a financial or personal choice to let them get there.

I am actually not judging those people. You can't know why a person can't continue their responsibility to an animal. There are all sorts of reasons good and/or bad -- But THAT is the "honest" reason as to "what horses are there and why"

I do agree that the average person should not go to an auction or pen expecting to get a beginner safe 1st horse prospect. No one was ever saying that. Just as many horses sold through private sales are sold to people who have no business owning a horse -- but none of that was really the issue here.

Great - fine - question the rescues, keep them accountable, etc., etc., but you will be challenged on your responses too here in the spirit of what a message board is about and I DO think you have made some gross generalizations here.

Laurierace has now clarified what the resuce is (NFP). I hope the money can be used for more rescues or to rehab a horse or two in need of medical treatment or help provide more awareness or education.

There are always going to be rules and there will always be good reasons for the rule makers to break the rules for a good cause, and I still think this falls in that catgory.

If you don't like it - go start your own rescue and run it however you want - or don't bother posting once you've gotten the answers you were asking questions on. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Edited to say: Ok - I won't erase that last stuff because I did mean it -- But there is an equally strong and valid point for holding rescues who say 100% no breeding ever to that policy. It IS a valid argument and I'll beinterestedin seeing how this rescue continues to answer for themselves in what I am sure will be a barrage of questionings similar to those brought up in this thread.

BaldEagle
Aug. 2, 2004, 01:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by free:
so how can you make such ridiculous assumptions of percentages as 'most' are beyond any possible rescue? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What you call my "ridiculous assumptions" are based also in the assumption that most American horse-owners are intelligent and caring people that do not throw away "good horses" as a sport or just for the sake of it. I have posted, in the above posts, more then once, how come they end up there. Just have the time to read them.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by free:
I give credit to 'most' readers and potential buyers that they are not so naive as you would make them out to be, and that they are intelligent enough to think for themselves. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WRONG. Some of the readers of these posts and potential buyers are simply being MISLEAD by lots of posts and “stories” that do not reflect the reality at all.

Not long ago I was thinking that with my knowledge I would be perfectly able to by an OTTB and give him a second career. Bought a book about training horses just in case I didn't knew it all, and if it weren’t because of a few problems that still persist I would have embarked in a situation that could have turned the wrong way. That’s when I started posting about the costs “From OTTB to a jumper” or something similar.
By that time I already knew about the “stories” that abound everywhere and that I am not at all qualified for the retraining of an OTTB. At least the adaptation, the uncover of talents and the initial training phases must be made by a more knowledgeable persons then I am. I included found someone in my area willing to do the job. A soon as I am ready I am going to talk to her to see if we can strike a deal before buying anything. If it is feasible then I am going to talk with a COTHER that know where 900 magnificent horses are … http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Also I must say that the animal freaks, horse nuts and the like, that embarked in a kind of extremism really touch my nerves. That situation must be fought to prevent the distortion of the realities and abusive positions that might well lead to legislation that will greatly affect humans.
It’s not just my opinion that this “animal stuff” especially in the US is getting completely and dangerously out of hand. In Europe there is LEGISLATION in the works to combat this type of animal extremism.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Home Office minister Caroline Flint said the strategy was to tighten up and amend existing legislation - rather than create a separate bill to deal with the problem.

"We will be strengthening the powers of the police to tackle protests outside family homes because it's not just about the impact on the person targeted but the whole family," she told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.
"What we are talking about here is an extremist campaign attacking people for doing activities which are guided by the law," she added.
She said the UK had the "strongest laws in the world" on the use of animals in research and people were being attacked "for doing nothing illegal". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Animal extremists face crackdown (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3937435.stm)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>On Friday the Home Office unveiled plans for a crackdown on animal rights campaigners who use terror tactics against scientists
Protesting outside someone's house in an intimidating manner will be made a specific criminal offence and harassment laws will be tightened.
It follows concern the economy is being harmed by the security costs firms face in dealing with such activism.
The government has warned activists they may be banned from entering the UK and statements made by them are being examined. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

US animal activist defies warning (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3528132.stm)

Animal activists 'damage economy' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3932899.stm)

If you see most of the Horse “Rescues” websites you will find almost always the same thing:
A moving story about a “good horse” that ended up in a slaughter house, with as many gruelling details as possible, followed by a scheme to induce people to open their purses…

You will also find all kinds of vitriolic prose against horse slaughter, which is no more then a fine way to create a monumental problem and a nightmare of “retired” horses that is impossible to manage and to support.
In my opinion this is only an attempt to divert hundreds of millions of dollars of taxpayers money to increase their business prospects in a country where untold human needs have not being addressed yet for lack of adequate funding.
Just as an example in thousands, ask your retired “humans” why are they going to Canada to buy all the drugs they need at reasonable prices…

This “story” of the “media empire” happened July 17 and, at the speed of the light, a few days later was in the website of “you know who” with links to two media websites “to see the whole story” with the PayPal sign not far and a request to help them to “stay operational”. But nowhere to be seen is some important details as the name of the guy that sent the horse to the auction so we can confirm the story.

Some of this type of horsy stories, even if some are true, are no more then marketing coups which is bad, or political ploys which is worse.

BaldEagle
Aug. 2, 2004, 01:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by windycity:
BaldEagle
Ok....perhaps I should have clarified but I didn't realize that by saying I was "lurking" anyone would assume that I have no knowledge or horse sense, experience or talent...I meant lurking on this topic. I imagine there are others who fall into the same lurking category. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
When I said "not for the average lurking guy here" I hadn't anyone specific in mind. I just took your phrase meaning "not for people without knowledge"...
If you see my next post this will make sense.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>There are always going to be rules and there will always be good reasons for the rule makers to break the rules for a good cause, and I still think this falls in that catgory. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well that is also related to the fact that they have those contracts more stringent then when one is adopting a child... an abuse.
If they are so stringent with the others they must apply the same criteria to themselves too.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If you don't like it - go start your own rescue and run it however you want - or don't bother posting once you've gotten the answers you were asking questions on. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well its not in my horizon to do something like this. I don't agree with them and will never use their services nor I ever will make any contribution to their purses. And that is all http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
About posting here, thats something else. I also lurk a lot, copy lots of posts with good info that might be of use, and don't post very often. However, anti slaughter bill, horse rescues, and the like I simply can't let it go without a "fight" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Have to go now. Long way home. Be back tomorrow again. God willing http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

SeaOat
Aug. 2, 2004, 01:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bald Eagle
You will also find all kinds of vitriolic prose against horse slaughter, which is no more then a fine way to create a monumental problem and a nightmare of “retired” horses that is impossible to manage and to support. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If we can (unlike so many other countries) funnel thousands, on top of thousands, of small animals through private, state & federal agencies (to be placed or euthanized) without the advantage of slaughter, then WHY is it so hard to concieve the same laws and plans for horses?????????????
We already police abuse on equines as well as small animals. Few tax payers mind the service. I see little excuse for not extending our resources (taxes, public awareness towards equine abuse, neglect, over population, criminal ramifications, etc.) for horses and their kin.
If you can stomach putting to sleep Fido & Fluffy, then why can't you understand the ability/need to put horses down? Racing greyhounds meet that fate regularly, though public awareness and better policing have cut their numbers somewhat.
A veterinarian wrote a commentary that appeared recently about the flood of old & neglected horses that would suffer w/out slaughter (haven't heard that before http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif). In the company of 4 veterinarians (assembled during recent race day lull & not all from the same practice) someone chuckled at the letter (last page of July's The Horse, I believe he said) and almost at once EVERYONE said "Euthanize". And NO one would profit a nickle from sending their unwanteds to the kill pens. Owners may have another disposal fee instead.

Heather
Aug. 2, 2004, 02:07 PM
free, and others.

In my job, which I won't disclose on the BB, but if you want to PT me, I will share with you, I get a lot of emails from the "average horse owner" from every discipline you can imagine seeking help or advice for problems with their horses.

On a daily basis I am well and truly horrified by the emails I recieve. People with no business owning a guinea pig writing to me about their horse problems. Just a sampling of this week's mail includes someone who wants to know if I think it's alright for them to use a piece of barbed wire to make a bit for their OTTB who "won't turn good," a woman who bought a pony for their child at a killer auction who has now been attacked multiple times by the pony, and whose duaghter has had their arm broken, and someone who bought a racing QH (as in less than a week off the track) for their 78 year old grandmother to trail ride on and did I think it was a good idea to give the horse some time off or anything before setting grandma loose in the wilds.

Evertyime I think I've seen it all, I get something worse in the in-box. So honestly, my faith in the average horse buying public's ability to use good judgement is absolutely zero. I know I'm rather jaded and cynical by the job I do, and that I may be seeing the smallest, and worst percentage of horse buyers, but if I get one more letter from someone who is (a) adopting a resuce and has never owned a horse before and wants to know when it can show, or (b) has never ridden, and is buying a yearling, and wants to know how soon they can try riding it, I'm going to eat my hat.

And it goes without saying that when I suggest that these people employ professional help I get one of the following responses:

"I can't afoord a trainer or lessons."

"My [insert name of family member here] had horses as a kid and is going to help train 'em over the phone."

"I've had horses for 50 years and never needed any help before" (this is usually after I've been asked some totally inane question like do horses really need hay in the winter).

So my generalized thoughts on the issue of whether or not "good" (hate that word) horses end up in dire straights are certainly temepered by the fact that while I think slaughter is a pretty bad way to go, I'm not sure it's a less desirable that a home where the horse gets poor nutrition, inadequate care, has a mouth torn to bits by some terrifying bit contraption, and is covered with wounds from being hobbled since it doesn't want to be caught.

Nothing in horses is an always or never situation. I know that. However, i do firmly believe that a statistical majority of horses that end up there have somekind of problem that will need to be resolved, and that in my expereince dealing daily with the great unwashed of the horse world, most people do not have the ability to deal with them. Again, that doens't mean we shrug and turn our backs and say oh well. But, I do think it would be irresponsible, TO THE HORSES, to suggest that average horse people should be bringing horses home from the kill pens en masse.

It's been said before, but keep in mind that this BB has a far higher percentage of committed and expereinced horse folk than exists on average. I think it's easy to think the horse world is populated by folks like you find here. It's not. Believe me. It's not.

The Fjord Jockey
Aug. 2, 2004, 05:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heather:
free, and others.

Just a sampling of this week's mail includes someone who wants to know if I think it's alright for them to use a piece of barbed wire to make a bit for their OTTB who "won't turn good," a woman who bought a pony for their child at a killer auction who has now been attacked multiple times by the pony, and whose duaghter has had their arm broken, and someone who bought a racing QH (as in less than a week off the track) for their 78 year old grandmother to trail ride on and did I think it was a good idea to give the horse some time off or anything before setting grandma loose in the wilds.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dang. Talk about sendin' grandma over the river and through some woods. I'm all for the active elderly folk but that's a bit extreme.

Barb wire? I can't even stand the sight of people using it for fencing, much less a BIT. Jeezum.

free
Aug. 2, 2004, 06:38 PM
Heather...from the sound of the people that you deal with...it sounds as though we should breed more hortses and less humans.

free
Aug. 2, 2004, 07:00 PM
SeaOat...everyone that I know personally does euthanize when a horse reaches the point where it is suffering. Unfortunately this is not the norm among the racing industry. I fully agree with you. The racing industry creates the majority of the mistakes and is where irresponsiple breeding should be stopped in its track.

Jessi P
Aug. 2, 2004, 07:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The racing industry creates the majority of the mistakes and is where irresponsiple breeding should be stopped in its track.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Last time I checked the AQHA records an approx 125,000 foal registrations annually. Compare that to approx 35,000 TB registrations annually and you will see that racing is indeed NOT the problem.

free
Aug. 2, 2004, 08:37 PM
hobie cat...WOW that is even more amazing. This just shows how well the AQHA takes care of its own, in comparison to the TB racing industry.

Albion
Aug. 3, 2004, 12:39 AM
free, I'm sure there are PLENTY of papered AQHA horses - that are perfectly nice for some cause - that wind up at slaughter.

And if you want to see egregious mistakes being made, let's look at the AQHA halter horse, shall we? While the racing industry in the US may be geared towards precocious speed these days & not really give a damn about long-term soundness, at least they're not breeding horses that are so grotesquely deformed from BIRTH that they have NO possibility of having any sort of useful under saddle career.

And what nasty disease (I'm NOT talking conformational defect) has the Jockey Club encouraged to be spread around the breed, because it produces a body type that's 'suitable' for the halter classes that have turned into a freak show? I can't think of anything, but HYPP springs to mind with the QHs.

SeaOat
Aug. 3, 2004, 04:16 AM
Free: You may be surprised to know there are many trainers/owners who ask that their horse (healthy & not suffering) be put down when finished racing. They would rather KNOW it will not fall into the wrong hands.
There are great progresses in TB rehab and much of it comes from the larger farms and owners in the industry. The Secretariat TB Rehab Center is the best idea yet. Just adopting out TBs often leads to disaster even w/ seemingly knowing & well meaning horse experienced people. Most can't imagine the difference between handling a racing TB, QH, or Standardbred. And if they already have had a horse(s) off the track then they often think they know it all. Often it's been the trainers, not their students, who were the hardest to deal with.
It's too hard to school people, so finding the time & volunteers to re-train the horses first is the best way. I think the Secretariat Rehab Center has a website, check it out.

SeaOat
Aug. 3, 2004, 04:24 AM
Here's the link....

http://www.trfinc.org/trf_secretariat_center.htm

Epitome
Aug. 3, 2004, 06:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by free:
The racing industry creates the majority of the mistakes and is where irresponsiple breeding should be stopped in its track. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

EXCUSE ME?????

The racing industry most definitely does NOT create the majority of the mistakes. The racing industry is made up of professionals who actually have some idea what they're doing. The people who create most of the mistakes are the backyard breeders and trainers who find a cheap horse somewhere who is by nobody out of the family pet, and decide to try their hand at breeding, because their horse is "incredibly well bred, with names like Man O War and Secretariat in their bloodlines". Or they decide to train their own at the track, and wind up with an ill bred horse who has 52 starts, no places, but is great breeding material, because they retired sound.

I've seen it a thousand times on these very boards, for goodness sake! For example, this was posted a while back:

"I have a 10 year old Thoroughbred mare, Never Knew, that we are about to breed for a racehorse. He grandfather is Seattle Slew, and she has some nice lines. We want to breed her to a nice stally somewhere in West Virginia/Maryland."

This is the type of person that creates the problem, not the racing industry.

Not to mention the fact that racehorses make up less than 5% of the overall population going to slaughter each year.

BaldEagle
Aug. 3, 2004, 07:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeaOat:
If we can (unlike so many other countries) funnel thousands, on top of thousands, of small animals through private, state & federal agencies (to be placed or euthanized) without the advantage of slaughter, then WHY is it so hard to conceive the same laws and plans for horses????????????? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The “small animal spending” is a result of the serious human health related problems that can be created by stray animals. Not the case of the horse. Its human welfare that is at stake in this case.
Also we have long ago and in other threads gone through “numbers” to see how many horses could be “retired” with an average life span of 10 years. The numbers are staggering and could well top half a million horses in 10 years and thereafter. The logistical nightmare and the cost to provide adequate care for them are absolutely unacceptable in societies where a lot of human needs are not yet addressed for lack of adequate funding.
Just take some time to see the finances of some of the American states to see how things are. California is almost bankrupt and has an emergency budget with cuts in services everywhere. Many other states face similar situations.
Talking about spending a single dollar in retirement of horses ? No way.
Think about increasing retirement facilities and health care, drug plans and so on for humans and you will have my support.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heather:
I think it's easy to think the horse world is populated by folks like you find here. It's not. Believe me. It's not. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I really appreciated your post and in my opinion you will have some day to eat your hat, something I sincerely regret …
Its EXACTLY as you say and I absolutely agree with you.

I am going to say something that a few will not like, taking the opportunity created by your post.

With some exceptions that just confirm the rule, most of the people that care to spend the time to sustain a verbal fight in Forums, are those that belong to what I call the “extremists” of the animal world.
Many of the more rational and moderated people with a pragmatic approach to this “horse slaughter” stuff just keep on “lurking” and only jump on it when somebody pinches one’s nerve and then we get a post, normally a good one.

This also creates the illusion that the majority of the people belong to that extremist group when that is definitely not the case. This is something similar to think, as you well said, that the horse world is populated by folks like you find here when it is not the case. That’s why, in another thread about the impending Illinois bill, when I was answering to one of those that I consider an extremist (two toofs) I talked about the “noisy extremist group” and about the “silent majority” that normally don’t fight or make noise but would make themselves heard when the time was right.

That’s why I never miss an opportunity to try to be an obstacle to those extremists because sometimes, my posts, help create a controversy that pinches some nerves that led people to jump in and speak up their minds. So my posts have always that double objective:
To make clear my opinion and show that not everybody share those extremists points of view and try to provoke others to do the same. If we let go this will be like a growing snowball with dangerous consequences. The United Kingdom is being FORCED by those animal freaks to come up with legislation to curb their activities as you could see in the BBC links posted in one of my posts above. Other countries are considering the same and the European Union in thinking about doing the same for the 25 countries that joined the EU. With tremendous urgent and important tasks ahead the EU is loosing time to come up with legislation to curb those animal freaks. It’s insane. This is, in some cases a result of what I call the “too rich syndrome” or, in others, a distorted, perverted and inhumane view of what the priorities of our society should be.
I will never let them go away with it without a fight.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by free:
SeaOat...everyone that I know personally does euthanize when a horse reaches the point where it is suffering. Unfortunately this is not the norm among the racing industry. I fully agree with you. The racing industry creates the majority of the mistakes and is where irresponsible breeding should be stopped in its track. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here again goes someone stepping on other people’s rights. In the name of what right do you think that other people's individual rights should be curtailed ?
I am not a breeder, I am not a racer. I like the races as a spectator and for another very good reason: Because their activity (be it TB's or STB's) creates a continuous flow of very good pure bred horses that are sold cheap, so folks like me that can’t afford warm bloods, can also have the opportunity to buy a pureblood horse.
Now I ask:
- In the name of what rights do you think you are entitled to curtail my opportunity and that of many, many others to have a good horse ?
- Who are you to think you are entitled to do that ?
- How many jobs does the race industry provide ?
- With what right do you think that those that work for the racing industry should be fired just to comply with your @#$%^&* ideas about horse welfare?
- How many do you think it was acceptable to you to be put without livelihood just to satisfy your horsy feelings? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

- In my opinion NOT A SINGLE ONE!

Even not thinking about warmbloods, what would the price of the average horse be in North America without the flow of uncompetitive TB’s /STB's and the flow of foals from the PMU related industry ? 2 ? 3? 4? 5 times higher ?
I understand some positions ONLY from the commercial perspective...

When the horse is injured beyond recovery or reaches a point were it is suffering, for me it should be up to their owners to decide to euthanize it and let it rot away somewhere or send it to slaughter and use everything that is left.
- Do you know that a horse hide saddle lasts five to ten times more that the cow hides ones last ? (I also can explain you why).

And if in the end the French want to eat it, for me its fine. You see, since the times of Napoleon and what he did throughout Europe and especially after Mr. ChIraq oh pardon… Mr. Chirac come to power, I think they need a good deworming too… Who knows if they don’t get it ? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

The Fjord Jockey
Aug. 3, 2004, 07:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaldEagle:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by_ SeaOat_:
If we can (unlike so many other countries) funnel thousands, on top of thousands, of small animals through private, state & federal agencies (to be placed or euthanized) without the advantage of slaughter, then WHY is it so hard to conceive the same laws and plans for horses????????????? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The “small animal spending” is a result of the serious human health related problems that can be created by stray animals. Not the case of the horse. Its human welfare that is at stake in this case.
Also we have long ago and in other threads gone through “numbers” to see how many horses could be “retired” with an average life span of 10 years. The numbers are staggering and could well top half a million horses in 10 years and thereafter. The logistical nightmare and the cost to provide adequate care for them are absolutely unacceptable in societies where a lot of human needs are not yet addressed for lack of adequate funding.
Just take some time to see the finances of some of the American states to see how things are. California is almost bankrupt and has an emergency budget with cuts in services everywhere. Many other states face similar situations.
Talking about spending a single dollar in retirement of horses ? No way.
Think about increasing retirement facilities and health care, drug plans and so on for humans and you will have my support.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by _Heather_:
I think it's easy to think the horse world is populated by folks like you find here. It's not. Believe me. It's not. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I really appreciated your post and in my opinion you will have some day to eat your hat, something I sincerely regret …
Its EXACTLY as you say and I absolutely agree with you.

I am going to say something that a few will not like, taking the opportunity created by your post.

With some exceptions that just confirm the rule, most of the people that care to spend the time to sustain a verbal fight in Forums, are those that belong to what I call the “extremists” of the animal world.
Many of the more rational and moderated people with a pragmatic approach to this “horse slaughter” stuff just keep on “lurking” and only jump on it when somebody pinches one’s nerve and then we get a post, normally a good one.

This also creates the _illusion_ that the _majority_ of the people belong to that extremist group when that is definitely _not the case_. This is something similar to think, as you well said, that _the horse world is populated by folks like you find here_ when it is not the case. That’s why, in another thread about the impending Illinois bill, when I was answering to one of those that I consider an extremist (two toofs) I talked about the “noisy extremist group” and about the “silent majority” that normally don’t fight or make noise but would make themselves heard when the time was right.

That’s why I never miss an opportunity to try to be an obstacle to those extremists because sometimes, my posts, help create a controversy that pinches some nerves that led people to jump in and speak up their minds. So my posts have always that double objective:
To make clear my opinion and show that not everybody share those extremists points of view and try to provoke others to do the same. If we let go this will be like a growing snowball with dangerous consequences. The United Kingdom is being FORCED by those animal freaks to come up with legislation to curb their activities as you could see in the BBC links posted in one of my posts above. Other countries are considering the same and the European Union in thinking about doing the same for the 25 countries that joined the EU. With tremendous urgent and important tasks ahead the EU is loosing time to come up with legislation to curb those animal freaks. It’s insane. This is, in some cases a result of what I call the “too rich syndrome” or, in others, a distorted, perverted and inhumane view of what the priorities of our society should be.
I will never let them go away with it without a fight.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by _free_:
SeaOat...everyone that I know personally does euthanize when a horse reaches the point where it is suffering. Unfortunately this is not the norm among the racing industry. I fully agree with you. The racing industry creates the majority of the mistakes and is where irresponsible breeding should be stopped in its track. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here again goes someone stepping on other people’s rights. In the name of what right do you think that other people's individual rights should be curtailed ?
I am not a breeder, I am not a racer. I like the races as a spectator and for another very good reason: Because their activity (be it TB's or STB's) creates a continuous flow of very good pure bred horses that are sold cheap, so folks like me that can’t afford warm bloods, can also have the opportunity to buy a pureblood horse.
Now I ask:
- In the name of what rights do you think you are entitled to curtail my opportunity and that of many, many others to have a good horse ?
- Who are you to think you are entitled to do that ?
- How many jobs does the race industry provide ?
- With what right do you think that those that work for the racing industry should be fired just to comply with your @#$%^&* ideas about horse welfare?
- How many do you think it was acceptable to you to be put without livelihood just to satisfy your horsy feelings? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

- In my opinion NOT A SINGLE ONE!

Even not thinking about warmbloods, what would the price of the average horse be in North America without the flow of uncompetitive TB’s /STB's and the flow of foals from the PMU related industry ? 2 ? 3? 4? 5 times higher ?
I understand some positions ONLY from the commercial perspective...

When the horse is injured beyond recovery or reaches a point were it is suffering, for me it should be up to their owners to decide to euthanize it and let it rot away somewhere or send it to slaughter and use everything that is left.
- Do you know that a horse hide saddle lasts five to ten times more that the cow hides ones last ? (I also can explain you why).

And if in the end the French want to eat it, for me its fine. You see, since the times of Napoleon and what he did throughout Europe and especially after Mr. ChIraq oh _pardon_… Mr. Chirac come to power, I think they need a good deworming too… Who knows if they don’t get it ? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Huh? Actually don't answer that. I barely make it through the first paragraph of your posts.

Sandbarhorse
Aug. 3, 2004, 07:44 AM
I've been following this thread with interest, but have managed not to get into it, until now.

Finding a Danzig colt at the slaughter house is amazing to me. My inital reaction was that it was wonderful that he was saved and wondering if the racing industry would lose out on using this horse for breeding. Let's face it, Danzig is pretty well known sire. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif Then it occurred to me that perhaps, if his issues were non-heritable (is that a word?) and he couldn't mount, perhaps he'd be a worthy horse to try as a sporthorse sire via AI. I should underline "try", as he may/may not, like any other stallion, pass on traits worth passing on.

Whatever the case, I think the rescue would end up being beat up by someone, regardless of what they did with the horse. If they breed him, they're bad and if they geld him, they're bad (to those who think the horse has good bloodlines and got to the slaughter house via some odd twist of fate).

If I were them, I wouldn't have told a soul what I'd found. Of course, that doesn't help with showing that they have good horses to be adopted, so it's a catch-22.

Personally, while I think that AQHA and APHA horses may be overpopulated, the one thing I will say (buttoning flame suit here), is that at least those horses aren't bred only for speed, bred for a career that will last maybe 3 years, then trained only to run and finally left to find a home when they are well beyond what the avergage horseowner can handle to re-train (I do agree that the average person cannot do this).

So, while I think it's great that the racing industry donates to organizations to help find homes for these horses and at least makes an effort on their behalf, I don't think that absolves it of all guilt for unwanted horses that end up at slaughter. Despite their efforts, they are as much a part of the problem as the clueless QH/paint people who breed Backyard Bessie to Nextdoor Ned.

Overall, I think the average person has a better chance of getting a paint or QH to a safe, rideable place, than an OTTB. This is probably the quality that makes so many people breed them. Unfortunately, it is too easy/cheap to get a new one when said paint or QH is lame or old, so they just send them down the road and get another one to ride, thinking that "someone" will take them in. Damn fools for believing that, IMHO.

So, having said all that, I will probably breed my paint mare in a few years. I happen to really like the bloodline and have already begun finding the perfect stallion to compliment her. Am I adding to the problem? Maybe, on the one hand, but my horses stay with me for life and will be provided for after my death, so maybe not entirely. I will not feel guilty for this, as why should I take on someone else's throwaway for my personal riding horse, especially one that is not bred to do what I want to do? Actually, I probably will take on at least one horse in need of a home once we move to a larger property.

Heather, I don't know how you manage to respond to those e-mails. Are you able to help some of these people or is it always in one ear and out the other?

free
Aug. 3, 2004, 08:01 AM
Well...I guess that we have come full circle here folks...because the horse that this post was originally about came from a large, successful breeding farm.

The Fingerlakes TB Race Track alone is supposedly sending about twenty horses per week to the infamous New Holland auction. This speaks volumes.

SeaOat
Aug. 3, 2004, 08:04 AM
SANDBAR: "I will not feel guilty for this, as why should I take on someone else's throwaway for my personal riding horse, especially one that is not bred to do what I want to do?"

No one is telling you to. But you are naive to think some stallion found at the kill-pens should be bred because he is the son of Danzig out of a stakes producing mare ESPECIALLY if he's found by a rescue group. They, above all others should know better. They should know the message they send in standing him.
Everyone has a reason to breed one thing or another and everyone has a good explaination of why. With so many smart people you'd think we would have a surplus of buyers.

Sandbarhorse
Aug. 3, 2004, 08:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeaOat:
SANDBAR: "I will not feel guilty for this, as why should I take on someone else's throwaway for my personal riding horse, especially one that is not bred to do what I want to do?"

No one is telling you to. But you are naive to think some stallion found at the kill-pens should be bred because he is the son of Danzig out of a stakes producing mare ESPECIALLY if he's found by a rescue group. They, above all others _should_ know better. They _should_ know the message they send in standing him.
Everyone has a reason to breed one thing or another and everyone has a good explaination of why. With so many smart people you'd think we would have a surplus of buyers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One question and I'm not saying I agree or diagree with breeding him, why should he not be bred? Is this not a prime example of what people should look for in a sire? Good, historically quality producing bloodlines? The lack of a performance career is one strike against him, but if his conditions will not be passed on, why shouldn't he be given a chance?

Sorry, can't resist playing devil's advocate here? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Albion
Aug. 3, 2004, 08:47 AM
Because there are all ready a LOT of TBs that are bred to the hilt & that actually HAVE race records standing. We don't need another one, unless (and this is a big unless) there is a truly compelling reason to think he has something to offer to the TB gene pool. This goes for ALL stallions, not just TBs. There are plenty of 'meh' WB, QH, whatever stallions out there - ones with very nice bloodlines & little else.

Just because his sire recently retired from stud duties is NOT a reason to breed him.

moose
Aug. 3, 2004, 08:54 AM
Sandbarhorse, I am going to play devil's advocate.

There have been no reports saying that this has not been caused by something that is not inheritable. I have read terms such as: undisclosed, bad back, wobbles, "not neurological", sticky hock, popped abcess, pinched nerve.

Personally, I think this makes a good argument for live cover in breeding as opposed to AI. This is a colt, not a 20 yr old raced tb with arthritis from his career. Does this mean that a similar colt in AI would have slipped through the cracks in creating a sport horse?

No one has come out and said that none of the above was caused by a pasture accident versus a conformation flaw, ocd etc. If you were buying the horse to do a job, for riding, jumping, sport etc. how would you feel about those reports? Would you buy him?

Danzig has sired close to a thousand registered tb's with 100 sired in the last 4 years. I do not know much about tb breeding trends. Is this low, high, or the norm?

http://www.pedigreequery.com/index.php?h=DANZIG&g=5&query_type=progeny&search_bar=progeny&done=y&inbred=Standard&x2=n&username=&password=&x=0&y=0.

BaldEagle
Aug. 3, 2004, 09:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Soup From the Store:
Huh? Actually don't answer that. I barely make it through the first paragraph of your posts. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One of the good thing of these Forums is that we only read what we want or find interesting.
No need to say you don't read because it has no effect whatsover in what I say or how much I say http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif
Also nobody asked you to answer http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Epitome
Aug. 3, 2004, 09:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by free:
Well...I guess that we have come full circle here folks...because the horse that this post was originally about came from a large, successful breeding farm.

The Fingerlakes TB Race Track alone is supposedly sending about twenty horses per week to the infamous New Holland auction. This speaks volumes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A large successful breeding farm that sold him to a small time breeder, not to the auction for slaughter. The buyer, unfortunately wanted to have a cheap stallion to breed, rather than spend money on stud fees.

But gee, who is thinking of breeding this stallion now? A horse rescue! Thereby providing more poorly bred horses for the kill pens, just because he has Danzig as a sire! Danzig alone doesn't make him stallion material, folks.

And a whole racetrack that sends a whopping 20 horses per week to the New Holland auction. Whoop do doodle! Who is it that send the other several hundred every week? Oh, please.......

SeaOat
Aug. 3, 2004, 09:27 AM
SeaOat said:
If we can (unlike so many other countries) funnel thousands, on top of thousands, of small animals through private, state & federal agencies (to be placed or euthanized) without the advantage of slaughter, then WHY is it so hard to conceive the same laws and plans for horses?????????????

BALDEAGLE replied:
The “small animal spending” is a result of the serious human health related problems that can be created by stray animals. Not the case of the horse. Its human welfare that is at stake in this case.
Also we have long ago and in other threads gone through “numbers” to see how many horses could be “retired” with an average life span of 10 years. The numbers are staggering and could well top half a million horses in 10 years and thereafter. The logistical nightmare and the cost to provide adequate care for them are absolutely unacceptable in societies where a lot of human needs are not yet addressed for lack of adequate funding.....
Talking about spending a single dollar in retirement of horses ? No way.
Think about increasing retirement facilities and health care, drug plans and so on for humans and you will have my support."

SeaOat says in re:
You need to focus. I say pretty CLEARLY that I am for euthanizing horses that cannot be placed. I said NOTHING about state/federal funded "retirement". There are more humane, and relatively inexpensive (though not profitable) ways to dispose of a horse than sending to slaughter. You blab on about people's rights...were there laws in place WITHOUT the option of slaughter, more abused/unwanted/neglected horses would fall into the hands of welfare agencies who would have the legal right to euthanize. While small animals running at large DO pose a human health risk, a large % of animals that end up in shelters are brought there by their owners or confiscated by animal patrol. I see the same possibility (larger than what already exists) for horses. A 20 horse barn behind your local ASPCA without a slaughter option. Hmmmmm.
You cannot equate the social need of one agency with the needs of another as a reason to forfeit all together.
Everyone has the RIGHT to fund their own cause, often with help from tax dollars. Lobbyists (spew) loby for your causes and for others you distain as well. I have just as much RIGHT to ask for tax dollars to be spent for my ideals as you do.
FYI, & like it or not, there are noticable amounts of people with more concern for pets/animals than they are with other humans....it's not *getting* the funding that's the problem, it's reaching a majority rule on how to spend it. I'm out to push people into another way of thinking. It's my right.
I don't think all horses can be saved. I don't think all horses should be saved. I don't think the #s would be as high in ANY breed if people were more prudent & intelligent & realistic in their breeding, or lack of. I DON'T agree with slaughter, purple juice being readily available.
You talk about the strength of horse hide over cow (maybe pig & deer too, both are used in saddles). We have a thing called RENDERING plants where you can haul/sell your euthanized horse off to be tanned and processed. You can also donate your dead horse to a school. You can euthanize the animal (for about $21.00) and have it buried (a service usually costing around $250.) on your farm. But without slaughter you most certainly won't be sending it off to be someone else's problem and pocketing any change for your effort. You'll have to deal with your animal properly or answer to a welfare agency under law. And if you do let your horse die from neglect undetected, well nothing is fool-proof. But I somehow doubt the #s of neglect will be as high as the #s of slaughter, and in time euthanasia will be easier and more accepted as well as make those around you understand their responsibility more clearly.

Sandbarhorse
Aug. 3, 2004, 09:31 AM
Albion and Moose -

I don't think the lack of a performance career is a valid reason to discount a stallion, out of hand. Perhaps I'm biased, as my 2 paints were sired by a stallion who was injured, on the track, at 2yo. He is, however, a full brother to another stallion (now deceased, I believe), who wasn't injured, was very sucessful on the track and has had an extensive breeding career. The breeder of my two horses (not me), decided that an injury wasn't the same as a flaw and made an informed decision to breed to him.

The result, 2 horses that I have had many professionals compliment and have even had a purchase offer from a pro, who sees horses nationwide, on our gelding. Guess they made a good choice.

Now, that's not to say that it wasn't something of a gamble, but that's the choice of a mare owner. The main thing is to find a way to educate people so that they realize that it's a gamble and to have stallion owners who stop standing a horse that's not putting quality individuals on the ground. Just to add fuel to the fire, like Impressive's (the QH linked to HYPP, fo rthose who don't already know) owners did, once they realized their horse was responsible. Too bad they didn't have any control over all the foals he'd already sired. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

As for this horse, as I said earlier, there was no possible way this rescue would come out looking good to everyone.

SeaOat
Aug. 3, 2004, 09:39 AM
SANDBARHORSE:
I've answered that question on a much earlier post on this topic. It has to do with the message adoption agencies are sending.
Can you see going to the pound, seeing this wonderful Yellow Lab, well bred & all, and actually being able to take it home and breed it????? Yellow Lab rescues would cringe for much the same reason I cringe at this colt standing.
See the forrest for the trees, forrest for the trees, forrest for the trees.........

Epitome
Aug. 3, 2004, 09:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sandbarhorse:


One question and I'm not saying I agree or diagree with breeding him, why should he not be bred? Is this not a prime example of what people should look for in a sire? Good, historically quality producing bloodlines? The lack of a performance career is one strike against him, but if his conditions will not be passed on, why shouldn't he be given a chance?

Sorry, can't resist playing devil's advocate here? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When you say that Media Empire has historically producing bloodlines , you’re falling into the same trap that most non racing people do when they look at a pedigree. Danzig himself comes from a good bloodline, but he isn’t the only, or even the most important part of the equation. The dam side is what you look at more, and Media Empire’s dam is not exactly a blue blood. She is from a pretty average family, if you want to be brutally honest about it.

Why shouldn’t Media Empire be considered stallion material? His dam, Media Nox is by Lycius, not exactly known as a great broodmare sire, or a great sire of any kind, for that matter. She is a decent winner of less than $100,000 at the races, and has no siblings of much note, none of whom were great producers. Out of 5 foals , she has produced 2 runners, both of whom are European, only one of which looks to be a stand out at this time. Media Empire himself never raced, so no points there. He is by Danzig, but gee, Danzig sired probably over 80 foals a year for how many years? That leaves lots of other little Danzigs to choose from, many of whom are far better bred and were far more successful at the races.
Altogether, this is a semi-decent regional pedigree, but is probably all grass, which means he’ll go down the tubes so fast in this country, you’ll hear the sucking sound from wherever you’re at when his foals start running. He’s bred no better, and probably a bit worse than a thousand cheap sires already standing at stud, none of whom really should be.

free
Aug. 3, 2004, 09:54 AM
Epitome...where is your proof that they intend to breed poorly bred horses?

And that 20 is only from one track. Whoops...you forgot to do the math. How many tracks are racing at any given time. Then average the number of horses shipping from all of them to various cheap auctions and the picture is quite different.

Sandbarhorse
Aug. 3, 2004, 09:56 AM
IMO, it's not me who doesn't see the forest for the trees. If a rescue can put a horse or dog (though I agree with Bald Eagle about the not transferring ownership issue)in a place where they will be bred responsibly and that allows them to get other animals out of situations where they are not being cared for/bred responsibly then I really don't see a problem.

The issue is really responsibility and education. You can't legislate either of those any more than you can honestly stop irresponsibility or stupidity. If you think keeping this horse from being bred or even all the horses that are "rescued" you are going to fix the problem, dream on. At least if a rescue supports the breeding of quality individuals in a responsible home, perhaps they've at least kept quality individuals available, that are less likely to end up (at least in the case of horses, small animal owners are even harder to understand)at the slaughter house.

FWIW, I don't agree with rescues spending loads of money re-habbing some of their rescues, who will never be useful for anything. Haven't they already suffered enough? I'd rather see them euthanize them and spend the $$ on horses that can truly be helped. My biggest issue with slaughter is the conditions leading up to it, not the fact the someone else wants to eat the horse or that the horse will be killed. It's better than many of the alternatives, if the transport, etc. can be fixed.

Anyway, enough of my opinion and ramblings, my goal was mainly to show that there may be more than one rational way to view things and that the alternative view has to be taken into consideration.

Oh and someone asked if I'd take this horse. Yep, if I had a way to keep him away from my mare, I'd love to see what his problems really are.

Sandbarhorse
Aug. 3, 2004, 10:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Epitome:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sandbarhorse:


One question and I'm not saying I agree or diagree with breeding him, why should he not be bred? Is this not a prime example of what people should look for in a sire? Good, historically quality producing bloodlines? The lack of a performance career is one strike against him, but if his conditions will not be passed on, why shouldn't he be given a chance?

Sorry, can't resist playing devil's advocate here? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When you say that Media Empire has historically producing bloodlines , you’re falling into the same trap that most non racing people do when they look at a pedigree. Danzig himself comes from a good bloodline, but he isn’t the only, or even the most important part of the equation. The dam side is what you look at more, and Media Empire’s dam is not exactly a blue blood. She is from a pretty average family, if you want to be brutally honest about it.

Why shouldn’t Media Empire be considered stallion material? His dam, Media Nox is by Lycius, not exactly known as a great broodmare sire, or a great sire of any kind, for that matter. She is a decent winner of less than $100,000 at the races, and has no siblings of much note, none of whom were great producers. Out of 5 foals , she has produced 2 runners, both of whom are European, only one of which looks to be a stand out at this time. Media Empire himself never raced, so no points there. He is by Danzig, but gee, Danzig sired probably over 80 foals a year for how many years? That leaves lots of other little Danzigs to choose from, many of whom are far better bred and were far more successful at the races.
Altogether, this is a semi-decent regional pedigree, but is probably all grass, which means he’ll go down the tubes so fast in this country, you’ll hear the sucking sound from wherever you’re at when his foals start running. He’s bred no better, and probably a bit worse than a thousand cheap sires already standing at stud, none of whom really should be. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It comes down to market (see my post on education and responsibility). Perhaps he's not the best potential race horse sire in the world. Perhaps he is a nice possibility for another discipline? I don't really know, I'm not an expert in pedigrees for racing or dressage or eventing. Ask me about reiners, then maybe I'll have an opinion.

My point is just that, if there is a market for him, which based on the $25K offer, someone thinks there is and the rescue feels that this is a responsible type of breeder, then I don't see a problem with it. I have to confess, I did think that he had better breeding than your indicating and maybe that does change the argument somewhat.

SeaOat
Aug. 3, 2004, 10:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sandbarhorse:
IMO, it's not me who doesn't see the forest for the trees. If a rescue can put a horse or dog in a place where they will be bred responsibly and that allows them to get other animals out of situations where they are not being cared for/bred responsibly then I really don't see a problem. ..... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Blind as a bat. I suppose you think Juddmont and the spiraling staircase of owners he went down, were just irresponsible breeders. Look at his beginning. Look at where he ended up & the road that took him there. Twas no accident http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif.

Epitome
Aug. 3, 2004, 10:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by free:
Epitome...where is your proof that they intend to breed poorly bred horses? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, for starters, the fact that he is going to be the sire. If they intended to breed good ones, they would choose another stallion. I'll rest my case on that one.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And that 20 is only from one track. Whoops...you forgot to do the math. How many tracks are racing at any given time. Then average the number of horses shipping from all of them to various cheap auctions and the picture is quite different. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not the one with the math problem. If every racetrack in the country sends 20 horses per week to the auction, (which they don't, by the way) and every auction had only 20 horses entered, then I might agree with you. But I haven't seen that 20 horse auction yet. Seems that most of them usually have a few hundred. So subtract that 20 fromn the racetrack, and where did the other 80 or more come from? And which number is larger, 80 or 20? That's pretty simp[le math, isn't it? Not to mention the fact that not all of the horses at auction go to slaughter. Given a choice between Ole Bessie, 27 years old, blind, crippled and dumped by Farmer John's kids as too bad to ride, and a still sound 4 year old retired racer, who do you think the average horse shopper is going to buy?
You can twist the facts to suit your particular predudice all you want, but you can't change the facts. The racing industry isn't the creator of all evils when it comes to horse slaughter.

Sandbarhorse
Aug. 3, 2004, 10:35 AM
Honestly, I don't get it. This downward spiral happens to horses constantly. Usually older campaigners. Would it happen less if there were less horses? I seriously doubt it.

Yes, it was irresponsible breeders that took this horse to the auction where he was sold to the meat man. Not Juddmonte (the responsible type), but the last owner. He or she decided the horse wasn't what they wanted and, instead of either: 1) putting the effort into finding a purchaser or 2) putting the horse down, they decided to send him to a low level auction.

There clearly is a buyer for this horse, assuming we've been correctly informed about the offer made to the rescue. The owner just didn't want to find them.

I'm going to say it again, for emphasis:
The issue is really responsibility and education. You can't legislate either of those any more than you can honestly stop irresponsibility or stupidity. If you think keeping this horse from being bred or even all the horses that are "rescued" you are going to fix the problem, dream on. At least if a rescue supports the breeding of quality individuals in a responsible home, perhaps they've at least kept quality individuals available, that are less likely to end up (at least in the case of horses, small animal owners are even harder to understand)at the slaughter house.

I'll even add that they have, in the meantime, been able to hopefully re-hab others that need homes. I suspect that it is an unusual case where this situation arises.

With regard to this particular animal, I have already acknowledged that Epitome is probably right about the quality of his breeding and whether this particular horse's gelding would be a loss to the racing community.

I might even go so far as to say that if this horse should not be bred and cannot be ridden, it might be in the overall best interest of the rescue and other needy horses to put him down. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

SeaOat
Aug. 3, 2004, 10:52 AM
SANDBARHORSE said with emphasis:
"The issue is really responsibility and education."

Yes that's true. That's why the lesson a rescue teaches when they abandon their own message is especially criticle.

This horse is *fairly* well bred on the bottom as well & might have deserved a shot. But as fate has it he has (luckily) ended up in the hands of a rescue operation. Think how much they could teach by NOT breeding this horse. By NOT taking $$ for him as a breeding stallion. By setting an example, not bending one.
It's my understanding that an appraisal of the colt is pending. I would hope that even if higher than expected, he would still set a better example for a better cause than breeding.

Albion
Aug. 3, 2004, 11:01 AM
If they want to support breeding quality individuals, they should START with a high quality stud that offers SOMETHING that the legion of mid-level/regional race stallions already out there don't.

This one doesn't.

So Danzig is his sire. Epitome has already discussed some of the issues of his pedigree. A friend of mine has a turf horse who is bred very, very well (top AND bottom) & she already has well-respected racing people who have expressed their desire to take a mare to him. He's stakes winning (in good company) & placed horse, with some top 3 graded finishes in there; mostly in Europe, on the grass, over long-ish distances (wherein lies the big stumbling block). He retired totally SOUND at the age of NINE, after breaking his maiden in a maiden stakes at the age of 2. She's STILL batting around the idea of standing him, nearly a year after his retirement - she wants to, and feels (along with other people) that he definitely has something to offer & probably has more to offer than a lot of our regional VA/MD stallions - but she's still taking a good, long hard look at her options & if this is something that is worth doing - can this horse really improve upon the stock that is out there? And this is for a horse who is better bred than the rescue horse, a WINNER, and *sound*. Black-type, etc. Not a rare horse at all, although I think he's got some nice bloodlines to offer, that differ from a lot of the stuff you see here. Who knows what will happen - but if he doesn't go to stud, he will be her foxhunter. It's not the end of the world.

If this horse isn't sound to be ridden, geld him & turn him out to pasture as a buddy. If that's not a suitable career, figure something else out, or put him down. Why perpetuate the cycle by standing a horse with little to offer, other than a famous sire? There are PLENTY of those horses around, we don't need more. It's not going to fix the problem, but at least there won't be any future offspring from THIS horse to go to slaughter.

Bea
Aug. 3, 2004, 11:16 AM
I don't think this colt should be bred. Without a performance and/or produce record, bloodlines are nothing but lines on a piece of paper. Look at human families, I'm one of four siblings, skills, athleticism, and some might say intelligence http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif varies greatly amongst us. In my experience it tends to be similar for horse families. Look at most broodmare produce records, the vast majority of the time the records of her offspring vary tremendously. It's a rare broodmare that consistently produces outstanding foal after outstanding foal. When someone says to me, I've got a mare, never shown or produced but she's a full sister to x, a picture of my full sister pops into my head, four inches shorter than me, asthmatic, but far more intelligent. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I'm sure you TB folks do the same, but I spend a lot of time looking at produce records for AQHA reining studs. Take total number of offspring, minus number not of performing age, divide the number of performing offspring by that number. And you get % of offspring who are performers. Not necessarily great performers, but have some record however small. Average number to come up with for say the top 50 studs in the country? 50% Very small portion of the top 50 might have between 55-65%. So that means 50% of the offspring of the very top reining studs end up with a performance record. And the top reining studs have extensive performance records of their own. 50% offspring with performance records is considered the best breeding odds on paper. That's pretty risky numbers.

A 501(c)3 rescue group I feel should set the highest example of responsible breeding. Taking a colt with no performance record (and no one has even mentioned his conformation) and breeding him, in my mind is not setting the highest example.

free
Aug. 3, 2004, 11:28 AM
Epitome...where did anyone say that that the TB race industry was the creator of 'all' evils?

Forgot to add the number of used broodmares that said industry disposes of each year.

Sandbarhorse
Aug. 3, 2004, 11:31 AM
I'll agree to disagree on whether a rescue should ever consider breeding a horse they've rescued. With repsct to this horse, having more info. on his pedigree and it's value, I'll concede that this horse shouldn't be bred 9at least for racing). I agree as to his future. If he can't be ridden and a companion home can't be found, I guess he's better off being humanely put down. Too bad, as he really is a beautiful horse.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bea:
I'm sure you TB folks do the same, but I spend a lot of time looking at produce records for AQHA reining studs. Take total number of offspring, minus number not of performing age, divide the number of performing offspring by that number. And you get % of offspring who are performers. Not necessarily great performers, but have some record however small. Average number to come up with for say the top 50 studs in the country? 50% Very small portion of the top 50 might have between 55-65%. So that means 50% of the offspring of the very top reining studs end up with a performance record. And the top reining studs have extensive performance records of their own. 50% offspring with performance records is considered the best breeding odds on paper. That's pretty risky numbers.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's just one flaw with that reasoning, Bea. A lot of top horses offspring don't ever get a performance record, that we can see, due to their purchase by non-show types and those that have no desire or ability to make it to those levels. I'm sure there are a lot of horses doing local shows and leading happy lives, that just don't make it to an NRHA approved show. it is not necessarily due to lack of talent on the horse's part. There's also a monetary issue to showing and the mares portion of the equation to consider.

One thing the WB folks do do right, is require inspections/performance records to allow registration of foals.

free
Aug. 3, 2004, 11:38 AM
Well secretariat had a fairly good race record and he was a huge disappointment as a sire from what I heard. However, some less prestigeous relatives sharing some common bloodlines produced winners.

Are you only speaking in terms of beeding him as a producer of runners, or are you including Sporthorses?

Flash44
Aug. 3, 2004, 11:49 AM
Just because a horse that is for sale does not sell and ends up at the auction does not mean that there was not a market for the horse, or the horse had little or no value.

Having recent horse shopped, I can tell you that advertising is everything. There are WAAAY too many horses for sale for me to even consider going to see a horse who's photo I did not see first. There were a kabillion text only ads that fit my criteria, how to sort through them?

The horse I ended up buying was through luck. I went to see one horse, did not like it, and they pulled the one I bought out of the field. Loved her immediately. I asked, "why wasn't she on (website?)" She was, but the price was "Private treaty," and no pic was included. So I never saw the ad.

SeaOat
Aug. 3, 2004, 11:50 AM
Free....
Secretariat was a pretty decent broodmare sire having many talented daughters. He also had the best mares sent to him, as many talented runners do, in the beginning. I wouldn't call him a flop.
"Fairly good" race record http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif indeed!

Bea
Aug. 3, 2004, 12:02 PM
[QUOTEThere's just one flaw with that reasoning, Bea. A lot of top horses offspring don't ever get a performance record, that we can see, due to their purchase by non-show types and those that have no desire or ability to make it to those levels. I'm sure there are a lot of horses doing local shows and leading happy lives, that just don't make it to an NRHA approved show. it is not necessarily due to lack of talent on the horse's part. There's also a monetary issue to showing and the mares portion of the equation to consider.[/QUOTE]

Yes SH, you're right that is one of the wildcards. But if you're comparing studs who have been breeding for a while and whose stud fees are reasonably high, you can make some assumptions that the attrition rate through death, injury, non showing etc for their offspring is approx the same.

And since reining is so small, you can see on paper often how the numbers are affected. Bob Loomis has a fantastic marketing and training component therefore Topsail Whiz offspring probably have some greater opportunities. And if the goal is to breed reiners, an offspring having a great career in say dressage, doesn't matter. There's a big buzz around Lil Ruf Peppy offspring and his performance offspring percentage is lower than others. But when you look at the broodmares being bred to him, you see most people so far are taking a chance on him with their second string. That's possibly part of the buzz, people wondering what he could do with great mares. But who's going to step up and take that chance. Well, since Tom McCutcheon co-owes him and wants to build a business around him, he will. And has the ability to do so.

I would think it's a very similar situation to breeding TBs for racing. And would imagine good TB breeders make decisions based on similar considerations. If you've got a great mare, you're not going to breed her to an unproven, unraced stud. And therefore that unproven, unraced stud is getting to get unproven mares. Is Roxe Dene getting to be bred to this colt?

Glimmerglass
Aug. 3, 2004, 12:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by free:
Well secretariat had a fairly good race record and he was a huge disappointment as a sire from what I heard. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hear that often, but still among his progeny is Lady's Secret (b 1982) [by Secretariat - Great Lady]

1986 Horse of the Year & 1986 Champion Older Mare; Hall of Fame inducted 1992; won the Whitney Stakes at Spa against some of the best males of the day;

45 starts 25-9-3

Sandbarhorse
Aug. 3, 2004, 12:22 PM
My apologies for the hijack folks, but one more reining comment from me to Bea. I just thought you'd get a kick out of this Bea, seeing as how it sort of proves your point. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I have a friend with a Topsail Cody son. You'd probably think, he'd at least be a pretty good reiner right? Well, he's not even built for it. Picture tall, long, TB looking sorta guy. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Sweet boy and a nice horse, but no born and bred reining genes visible.

There was recently an IRS sale of some cutting bred horses, including some carrying Color Me Smart blood, which is one stud that I've been watching. If I hadn't already been going away, I might have at least gone to TX to look.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled thread:

That's, I suppose the sort of risk you run in breeding horses. By culling certain horses, you never know if you've just nixed a potential superstar (it has happened with little known parents) or a line that may have proven its worht from another angle, like Secretariat as a broodmare sire (I've heard) or in another discipline. I suppose that's why I see the name Danzig and wonder, however, if what has been posted is correct, then I suppose it's better to err on the side of caution.

free
Aug. 3, 2004, 12:28 PM
SeaOat...Yes, a pretty decent broodmare sire...but there are a lot that believe that this was due to those 'best mares' and not due to him as a sire. They say that those wonderful mares 'carried' him.

Why did you have to add 'in the beginning'? Is that because top breeders quit using him after initial dissapointments?

Actually, his name appears often in the pedigrees of good Event horses. But I haven't seen it as often as Danzig lately. Although the Bold Ruler line as a whole is sought after.

Personally, I like the Northern Dancer/Green Dancer line but I would look at everything down from Bold Ruler. Now add that to imported frozen from the UK and it makes me dream. However, I would never breed a horse from conformatio or bloodlines alone...I would need to see its movement and personality first.

Ooo.Kaaay. I guess that I could up that to "Pretty Decent" race record.

Bea
Aug. 3, 2004, 12:48 PM
Sandbarhorse, I PTed you. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

SeaOat
Aug. 3, 2004, 01:03 PM
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Free:
What I was trying to point out, is all great race colts get the best mares those first few years, for obvious reasons. That is a thought among many, that his mates carried him...but I don't know enough about that to say.
But back to our subject stallion by Danzig, I can't imagine anything more than average mares coming to him, like so many cheaper stallions. I can't decide who's more frustrating, the boys who don't add anything & stand or the girls who've no business being dams.
To address those who keep throwing in exceptions to logical rule...one must remember these are EXCEPTIONS in the ranks and not meant to set a standard.
I know one thing in racing: the people who care most about the bloodlines are owners and owners who breed. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

free
Aug. 3, 2004, 02:38 PM
SeaOat...well in all fairness to Secretariat, I have also heard that the ability of his foals did not drop when he was bred to lesser quality mares...so if that is true, it was in good measure due to him.

Aha...I hadn't thought of the fact that 99% of the time only average mares would be coming to him. But what about Smarty Jones? Weren't his parents just average? I understand that he is an exception, however don't they need average horses to keep the tracks going? Although with only one in every two foals only fair to poor compared to their ancestors even among the top breeders, I suppose that there is enough to fill each calender. But it breaks my heart to know that most race breeders are not breeding for long-term soundness and distance any more. It is increasingly difficult to find a horse among the racers that can make it as a *** or **** star Event horse now. Most of our top riders are importing now and I hate to see that happening. I love and want to remain proud of the U.S. Thoroughbred. We should be able to breed just as good or better an Eventing horse over here!

O.K. He was the greatest!

SeaOat
Aug. 3, 2004, 02:52 PM
Free: I do have a Secretariat bobblehead......now there's a beauty! The feet are the same size as his head, he's a liver brown, and his mouth has lips like a llama http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sadsmile.gif. But if I squint & look sideways I can see the super-horse w/in... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Jessi P
Aug. 3, 2004, 04:48 PM
Smarty Jones parents average? Did you know that his sire, Elusive Quality has the world record for a mile as well as being a graded stakes winner? His dam I'll Get Along is a multiple stakes winner and was on the board (1st 2nd or 3rd) 30 of her 39 lifetime races (granted she *ONLY* earned 277k).... wish I had a barnful of *average* ones like these 2.

1992 I'LL GET ALONG,f,Smile 5 39 12 10 8 277,008 ( 99) 4.84
North America 2 YO Record * 1 1 0 0 8,100 ( 86)
North America Turf Record 1 0 0 0 200 ( 68)
North America Dirt Sprints 29 9 7 5 174,389 ( 99)
North America Dirt Routes 9 3 3 3 102,420 ( 95)
North America Muddy/Sloppy 1 0 0 0 600 ( 73)
DP = 13-5-8-2-2 DI = 2.75 CD = 0.83 AWD = 6.57
At 3 Won William Parker S. (O) (35,000), 2nd Contrary Rose S. (O)
(36,750), Office Queen S. (O) (31,675), 3rd Moonlight Jig S. (R) (O)
(32,700)
At 4 Won Alma North Handicap (O) (32,130)
At 5 3rd Light Hearted S. (O) (42,800)
At 6 2nd Veiled Look S. (O) (43,800), George F Hammerscmidt Mem. Hcp (R)
(O) (42,300), 3rd Princess Rooney S. -L (62,000)
-------------------------
1993 ELUSIVE QUALITY,c,Gone West 3 20 9 3 2 413,284 (115) 11.49
North America Turf Record * 4 2 0 0 147,990 (105)
North America Dirt Sprints 12 5 2 2 217,694 (115)
North America Dirt Routes 4 2 1 0 47,600 (103)
North America Muddy/Sloppy 4 2 0 0 63,500 (107)
DP = 11-8-14-1-0 DI = 3.25 CD = 0.85 AWD = 7.17
At 3 2nd King's Bishop S. -G2 (108,200)
At 4 3rd Tom Fool Handicap -G2 (150,000)
At 5 Won Jaipur Handicap -G3 (86,250), Poker S. -G3 (85,400)

gobabygo
Aug. 5, 2004, 05:11 PM
Bald Eagle- I thought this was a racing forum?? Yes, DRF is the daily racing form.

WhiteCamry
Aug. 6, 2004, 05:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>1992 I'LL GET ALONG,f,Smile 5 39 12 10 8 277,008 ( 99) 4.84 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Five years running ... isn't that a long time for a flat-course horse, especially a filly?

SeaOat
Aug. 6, 2004, 07:41 AM
Flat isn't the precipitant so much as turf vs dirt. Turf runners often get winters off, adding to their shelf-life...while SCing is on the turf, I'm guessing they have a higher career ending injury rate.
Any horse given proper breaks (or simply resisting the wear & tear above most) is likely to shine their best around 5 & 6, IMO.
Fillies can be tricky, as they are generally more stoical workers, working through pain & not as quickly giving in to it. (Boys are bigger cry-babies http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif) So when training girls, you probably have to be more in tune w/ them, I think.

Jessi P
Aug. 6, 2004, 02:54 PM
And that means her career spanned 5 calendar years, she could have run her only 2 yo start late in the year and that would count as racing in that calendar year. Might be somewhat misleading unless you take that into consideration - doesnt necessarily mean she ran the whole year.


~Jessi

Black Opal
Aug. 7, 2004, 08:27 AM
I just read this whole topic quickly and for the most part, the people posting can be divided into two kinds- Hobbyists and Breeders/TB Racing Industry people.

That says it all to me.

Hobbyists post about SPECTACULAR horses they saw/own now/bred/consider breeding who have a FAMOUS GRANDSIRE/GREATGRANDSIRE/BROTHER TO A GREAT SIRE etc.

This to me is scary.

This should be illegal or we should at least provide education/counselling/experience to the guilty individuals in the TB breeding industry about bloodlines-namely that the most ignored factor in hobby breeding is the importance of the mare(or bottom) of the pedigree.

If I had a nickel for everytime someone came on here and posted about an OTTB whose family WAAAAAAAAAY back was good on the sire's side I would be as rich as the actual breeders in the industry.

It smacks of total ignorance to TB breeding and bloodlines. Truly then, could it theoretically be these people who have bred their "masterful creations" who are ultimately responsible for clogging the country's kill floors with calf-kneed, sickle-hocked, curby monstrosities?


Just my opinion.

witherbee
Aug. 13, 2004, 09:46 AM
I also have that pet peeve that most people who know I have TBS and have one themselves say "He/she has [insert famous name here: Man O War, Secretariat, Northern Dancer etc.] is his/she bloodlines..." You hear it all the time on the various bulletin boards too. That's great, but most have some famous sire way back - who are their sire and dam? What are you going to use them for? What is the conformation like? I agree that certain TB lines seem to do well as hunter sires and some as eventers, but most of these folks are not talking about that or about performance horses - they are talking about their backyard OTTBs. It's great when people know those venerable old names and take pride in their horses, but when they want to use that as a basis to breed, I find it sad.....

lee.
Oct. 21, 2004, 04:27 PM
Looks like there's an update on Media Empire's status, except...I can't find anything on Lost & Found Horse Rescue's website that says WHERE he is (and whether he's gelded or not) - just these great photos of him enjoying himself "at his new forever home" - http://www.lfhr.org/. Does anyone know what his status is, or am I missing something on their site?

Inyureye
Oct. 22, 2004, 09:33 AM
Hi, I am coming into this discussion late, please forgive me if this issue has already been addressed, however, reading the first half of the thread, I keep waiting for someone to address the most obvious question about this horse - why should he be bred? Certainly not for his conformation, and it sounds like the act its self is physically stressful. I would be surprised if the horse is rideable, but I am hopeing to find out that he has been gelded?

Inyureye
Oct. 22, 2004, 10:12 AM
Sorry - Epitome, you addressed it eloquently. Just because there is a famous name in a horse's background does NOT mean you breed him. A stallion with a mediocre broodmare sire doesn't - pardon the pun - stand a chance - in the breeding shed. That's why he ended up where he was found. Sad but true. OK, geld him, love him and play with him, and hopefully some of the dreamers have learned a good lesson from reading this post - such a critical lesson - that there is much much more, serious complex and involved issues to consider when contemplating to breed a TB. I don't know how many hundreds of progeny Danzig has, and how many of those were mediocre or less, breeding or performance-wise, and how many of these have reproduced, a. Poor Media Empire is just another Danzig grand son. That's all. He doesn't have the breeding to be stood.

Laurierace
Oct. 25, 2004, 04:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chiggins:
Sorry - Epitome, you addressed it eloquently. Just because there is a famous name in a horse's background does NOT mean you breed him. A stallion with a mediocre broodmare sire doesn't - pardon the pun - stand a chance - in the breeding shed. That's why he ended up where he was found. Sad but true. OK, geld him, love him and play with him, and hopefully some of the dreamers have learned a good lesson from reading this post - such a critical lesson - that there is much much more, serious complex and involved issues to consider when contemplating to breed a TB. I don't know how many hundreds of progeny Danzig has, and how many of those were mediocre or less, breeding or performance-wise, and how many of these have reproduced, a. Poor Media Empire is just another Danzig grand son. That's all. He doesn't have the breeding to be stood. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For the record, Media Empire was a SON of Danzig, not a grandson as quoted above. He also has a full brother who is a graded stakes winner and a half sister who is a graded stakes winner and will be one of the faves in her breeders cup race on Saturday.
That said, we do not allow breeding, and as tempting as it was, we gelded him and went on with our lives.