Losing your marriage over not wanting children, success stories please [Archive]

lost

Sep. 14, 2005, 05:31 PM

This is an alter...because I am in the middle of a mess right now. I need the support of the horsey community if anyone can chime in and give me hope, in any way.

I have been married for a few years to a person who knew, from the outset, that children were not for me. (He also knew how much horses were a part of my life.) He said he didn't want kids either. I always said that if he changed his mind, that we would discuss adoption. Well, he has now changed his mind in the matter of a few weeks...and not only wants biological children, he also wants a wife to work part time and be the primary caregiver. He also says he has always been lonely when I go do my horsey things. He has always refused to live on a farm...and trying to compromise now in the middle of working towards saving our marriage, I have suggested I potentially work part time from our home, but we must move to a farm so I can see my horses. But that he must also consider being primary caregiver because he is the one who wants a child so desperately. He doesn't want to be the primary caregiver. He has withdrawn from me and the marriage.

Our counsellor - I feel - is acting like a realtor, HIS realtor. She keeps stressing to me that two professionals can have a nanny etc. I don't feel she has my best interests at heart.

I feel that the majority of my horsey friends have ended up single b/c very few women are as self sufficient/independent as horsey women. I am totally fulfilled with my 4 legged babies. I won't give it up...but I am devastated by the break up of my marriage. I am not afraid of being alone or leaving the relationship..but I am just sad.

If anyone can share your experiences for the positive, please do. Thanks in advance.

lost

Sep. 14, 2005, 05:31 PM

carolprudm

Sep. 14, 2005, 05:36 PM

I have no advice to offer, only hugs to you.

michigander

Sep. 14, 2005, 05:45 PM

Wow, I'm sorry that you are having to deal with this. Good for you for being so up-front about your wishes before you married. It's a shame that your husband couldnt' have been more honest about his desires and instead waited until after you were married to voice them. I would definitely predict that this will be his style of communicating throughout the marriage (that is if you choose to stay with him.) Considering how strongly you feel about NOT having children and NOT being the primary care giver and NOT wanting to interupt your current lifestyle then I would urge you to file for divorce and move on. I highly doubt that your husband suddenly changed his opinion about having children. More likely, he waited until AFTER you were married to drop the bomb because he didn't want to loose you. This is selfish and manipulative behavior which I doubt will get better if you give in about having children. Cut your losses and find a man who shares your goals and can communicate in an open & honest way.

PMJ

Sep. 14, 2005, 05:45 PM

Wow, I am so sorry.

My husband and I both knew children were not for us--because I ride, I have some health issues, and basically he doesn't like children. I think if I had really wanted children we would have compromised, but we really discussed it clearly and right after we got married he got a vasectomy, so that was that http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

It doesn't seem like a great deal of compromise going on from your husband does there? Does he realize that he risks losing you over his unwillingness to discuss a more compromising position?

VirginiaBred

Sep. 14, 2005, 05:50 PM

I have been in two marriages; one to a non horse person and the 2nd to a horseperson. It's very, very difficult being married to someone who does not have the love of ponies and horses to be able to develop that same desire. They can assume some sort of new horse related role (the good ones) and "pretend" to be interested, but ultimately if they don't have the deep down love of the animals, they won't.
That was a large part of the demise of my first marriage, but we had two children together.

My second marriage I felt was built on a much more solid horse foundation, as we both were owners (and he sold horse trailers) but he still didn't participate in my horse world, although he was always welcomed. He ended up leaving me for someone else (that didn't have kids). The counselor we used seemed to me to be much more on his side than mine, and the discussions always sounded so one sided and set up that way. I felt like I was in a loosing battle, and I ultimately was. I did not want my 2nd divorce, and it nearly got the best of me for several years. Getting over it was painfully hard, but I did.

If this has happened to you in a matter of a few weeks, and it had been thoroughly discussed before marriage, then to me it unfortunately sounds as if he has met someone else, and she has change his mind. I ache for you and I wish I could make it better. Change counselors and you be the one to choose who that is. But marriage is compromise, and both parties need to meet 50/50. Do not give up everything for someone, no matter how much you love them.

One's identity is all one has in this life. Keep it.

Bugs-n-Frodo

Sep. 14, 2005, 05:51 PM

I can't really offer advice to you in your situation, but I do offer hugs.

I can say that I am going through a difficult time in my marriage right now as well. We are working things out, but we still have the horse battle to figure out. My husband wants kids as well, and I am not totally against them, but don't want to give up my horses in the process. Our issues are different from yours, but IMO, if I were you guys, I would search for another counsellor. My husband and I have been to more than one, and I am very happy with the one we have now. It is difficult to find a counsellor that BOTH of you feel confortable with, but it is integral to counselling. Seriously, if only one of you feels comfortable, then only one of you is truely able to open up and share, which is the POINT.

I am sorry you are going through this and I wish marriage was not so difficult at times. Truely I do. I love my husband, he loves me, but as we are now figuring out, being open and honest with our feelings on a REGULAR basis, and making an effort to be on the same page is KEY, or ONE of the keys, to success in a marriage... I hope we are successful in figuring out what the other keys are.

Good luck my friend, sometimes, the best things in life are those things we work hardest to achieve and/or maintain.

chaotic mind

Sep. 14, 2005, 06:05 PM

Well first off get another counsellor having a child to patch up a marriage is the worst thing you could do to the child and it won't really work to patch up the marriage either. If things do continue to go south you as the main caregiver would most likely end up with a child you didn't want in the first place.

I have a suspicion he may want out of the marriage and he feel the having a child thing as good a reason as any. The other reason might be is that he sees this as one way to keep you home and around for him. Either way you do have a problem and I think you need your own counsellor. Don't be afraid to shop around for the right one. There are alot of them out there that seem to have gotten there lisence out of a cracker jack box.

Good luck I have a feeling you are at a major cross roads. What ever you decide try to look at how that decision will effect your life 10 or 20 years down the road.

Critters Everywhere

Sep. 14, 2005, 06:12 PM

((((hugs)))

Before we got married, my husband & I agreed absolutely NEVER, EVER would we have children. There have been times since when one or the other of us has decided we wanted children. Since we were both so adamantly opposed to having children before, what really helped was figuring out WHY we suddenly started thinking that having a baby would be a good idea. (Usually there was something that triggered it that we were able to pinpoint...talking to an older person who was in difficulty because they didn't have any children to take care of them as they started needing assistance; seeing (or working with in our jobs/volunteer work) a particularly charming child we wanted to mentor; feelings of being alone & unloved and wanting someone--a child--who would love us; feeling insecure about our marriage & wanting something to keep us together...thank heavens we recognised THAT for a recipe for misery for everyone involved!; et cetera). Figuring out what the REAL underlying issue and then working on that instead was very helpful.

Going and walking around a crowded Wal-Mart full of screaming, bratty kids is usually an EXCELLENT reminder of why we don't want kids.

Ultimately, my husband & I seperated over issues that had nothing to do with kids. During our seperation we were able to re-priotize & evaluate & get over hurt feelings. We got back together & have been very, very happy ever since (@3 years now).

I second finding a counselor that you both like...a counselor working for only one of you is worse than useless. Also, if you don't want children, please, please for those childrens sake DON'T GIVE IN. I had several friends growing up who had one parent who didn't want them & they felt it keenly.

ASB Stars

Sep. 14, 2005, 06:12 PM

I agree with Chaotic...I have never wanted to have two footed children, and I have always made it clear to anyone I was involved with. Something else may be affot here... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I will say that it is possible to find a non-horsey person who can support (morally) your love of animals- horses in particular- IF they truly care about you. My SO knows that horses are integral to my existence, and, while I do not try to get him to become a rider, etc., he is VERY supportive of my addiction...er...virus...er... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

carolprudm

Sep. 14, 2005, 06:14 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VirginiaBred:
I have been in two marriages; one to a non horse person and the 2nd to a horseperson. It's very, very difficult being married to someone who does not have the love of ponies and horses to be able to develop that same desire. They can assume some sort of new horse related role (the good ones) and "pretend" to be interested, but ultimately if they don't have the deep down love of the animals, they won't.<SNIP>
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have been happily married to a wonderful non horsey person for 35 years. He plays golf.
We respect each others interests. I don't begrudge him his golf, he supports my riding.
We'll spend quality time together at the Clinton Anderson tour in Dillsburg and the Mary Wanless workshops over Thanksgiving.
Sharing the same interests isn't the key, respect honesty and love are.

Bugs-n-Frodo

Sep. 14, 2005, 06:16 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Sharing the same interests isn't the key, respect honesty and love are. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Truer words have never been spoken! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Critters Everywhere

Sep. 14, 2005, 06:36 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bugs-n-Frodo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Sharing the same interests isn't the key, respect honesty and love are. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Truer words have never been spoken! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

lost

Sep. 14, 2005, 06:38 PM

Thanks so much EVERYONE for so much support and so many rapid replies. I need them tonite.

Of course I cannot tell the whole story, nor do I feel like thinking of all the details right now, but until 6 months ago, we had a marriage that I would bet big money on would NEVER end. He supported my riding, I supported his golf, poker, tennis...etc. I always tried to be sensitive to our need for "us."

6 months ago, some secrets from his life started to unravel..and basically these very negative things are the result of his horrible horrible childhood. So, even though my trust and self esteem were damaged, I supported him through this time with lots of counselling and an emotional roller coaster ride.

Through the counselling, he is resolving childhood issues, and has learned some things about himself..one being that he does want to be a father. What I can't understand is how quickly he "discovered" this and prioritized it over his marriage. It would be one thing to discover it and discuss it with me fully enveloped in the marriage. But another to pull away.

I have confronted him a few times....want to know where he is and look at his cell bill. He has been completely up front offering everything but he says he doesn't know why he pulled away...and that he is just numb to everything right now. To your loving supportive wife????

So, suspicions are another woman...wanting out and finding a way to force me out...??? these things he denies. I asked him to move out last week for a separation. He said he didn't want it.

I plan on finding another counsellor, even if just for my piece of mind...but I just don't get it. How do you fall out of love or change your mind that quickly? I also don't plan on being someone's mother...

The work situation is a bit stickier since I started a job just two weeks before this started. As a professional, I can't just up and quit.

The only comfort is my horses..but with the new job, I don't get to see them very much.

I don't worry about being single, possibly for the rest of my life...but, is it too soon to pull the plug? I am emotionally exhausted..so, even if it is possible to come out together on the other side, I feel he has damaged this marriage and my trust in his feelings for me that it wouldn't matter anyway.

Alagirl

Sep. 14, 2005, 06:44 PM

OK, Mom chiming in here...

He changed the contract on you. He is making all those demands on you, but not commiting to the workload. Trust me, little ones untill they are in school (figure about eight+ years) are a full time job. And if you hire a nanny, why bother with the kids...

You need to get your own counselor, ASAP! Because there is more going on. And my friend who was married to a pictutr perfect controling SOB would tell you a thing and a half...You will have no time for *you*. At least for moms the *me* goes out the window once Jr gets here, trust me. I love my little bugger to death, but I am also ready to be my own person again instead of somebodies mom! If Daddy is not considering to be caregiver (where did you find this reactionary prick anyway, turncoat SOB http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif) you will be up sh*tcreek w/o a paddle, with a 24/7 job, a part time - you need superhero strength to run even a small house/garden with a young one (if the grandparents do not chip in)

I know I repeat myself, get ye to a therapist of your own NOW!!!

maybe you can schedule a session with both counselors present (as I recall, when my mom devorced her second husband, she also found herself outnumbered 2:1 with SO(B) and thereapist against her...get your own! It is not your fault!)

Best wishes!

Linny

Sep. 14, 2005, 06:47 PM

I just bought a condo after separating from Mr Linny. We have one child, a wonderful 5yo boy. I simply could not have another child at my age and we had some other issues all related to my not having a second child.
If you are getting counselling, its agreat start, but the councellor must be impartial. We never went to a councellor, and maybe we should have. He's looking for someone who wants more kids and I meanwhile have no interest in dating at all.
Send me a PT if you like to chat about it off the bb.

Alagirl

Sep. 14, 2005, 06:48 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The work situation is a bit stickier since I started a job just two weeks before this started. As a professional, I can't just up and quit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Wonder about the timing?! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Are you making more money (than him) now?

Hugs honey! Not much more I can tell you other than you will be in my thoughts!

Trakehner

Sep. 14, 2005, 06:53 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I feel that the majority of my horsey friends have ended up single b/c very few women are as self sufficient/independent as horsey women. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sigh...you were done wrong. He didn't suddenly decide he wanted kids, he's wanted them for a while. Sorry your marriage lasted for such a little time...but there are lots of good guys out there who are honest when they claim they prefer no kids (this usually happens the other way with a comment of "I know he'll love the kid once he sees it born"...just as crappy a behaviour). You can't base a marriage on a lie...I'm sorry he did this to you.

Women may want to blame guys for breakups, but guys really prefer self-sufficient, competent and self-sufficient women and partners...guys don't want to come in second to a horse though, they want a partner, not an employer.

lost

Sep. 14, 2005, 06:53 PM

I have always made more money than him and supported him in a very nice lifestyle. I worked two jobs and lots of extra shifts to pay for our wedding....which I didn't want - he did(all the expensive accoutrements..blah blah) He is just now coming into his own income after schooling finished...so, he was never previously "bothered" by my being his sugar mama..maybe he is now?

Thanks for the offer Linny....I may give you a holler.

Pandarus33

Sep. 14, 2005, 07:06 PM

I agree with the others....find yourself another counselor and go by yourself! There are plenty of good ones out there and not all of them can play the middleman for a couple. I am twiced divorced and the horses played a big part in the first one. When marriage #2 was in trouble, we were very lucky to find an excellent counselor. In the end, she told us (quite correctly) that we had done everything possible to make it work and it was her professional opinion that we separate. It hurt to hear it but the relief when we did was huge. I then found another counselor who helped me through the divorce and some other issues. A good counselor may not tell you what you want to hear but they should tell you what you NEED to hear. If your hubby won't change counselors or even think of it, go yourself. Good luck and keep your chin up!

carolprudm

Sep. 14, 2005, 07:07 PM

I've deleted this thought a few times because I really don't like it, but could it be that you have filled his needs (support through school) and now he has new needs and is moving on?
Hugs.

17handtb

Sep. 14, 2005, 07:10 PM

I'm so sorry, lost. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Reading this, it's clear who is at fault here - and it's NOT you. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif Of course some people do change their minds about wanting children after they've made the initial decision, but to change his mind with such lightning speed, and allow you absolutely no time to react...and cut you no slack whatsoever...is inexcusable on your husband's part.

You need to do what feels right to you in your heart, and children are way too important to be born just because other people - even if that other person is your husband - think it's what you should do. Be sad, give yourself time to grieve if nothing can be done to save your marriage, but don't sell yourself short. You have a lot of great qualities to offer and there ARE men out there who will want and respect that - without children as the dealmaker.

lost

Sep. 14, 2005, 07:13 PM

That thought has crossed my mind and come out of my mouth..don't worry about being blunt carolprudm. It may be true..I just don't know what is going on. I need outside input b/c I don't typically open up and it has led me to where I am now.

It all just reeks of me being used and him viewing the relationship as disposable.

Irish Ei's

Sep. 14, 2005, 07:15 PM

OK...Sounds to me like you're a long way away from losing your marriage or having children. Maybe time to see this counsellor alone, cuz you're getting ganged up on. These "other" issues must be addressed, cleared, etc. long before you take that irreversible step, and he must understand that babies are not handy little cures, especially if anyone is not openly willing....resentment kills....

LUVMYQH

Sep. 14, 2005, 07:20 PM

(((HUGS)))

Okay - I REALLY hope it doesn't come to divorce...but if it does, then you need to be prepared. Just make sure that you watch out for your own interests. My good friend just went through a nasty divorce - her husband went to the top 10 attorneys in town for a "consultation". By meeting with these attorneys for 15 minutes each, she could not hire any of them because of attorney/client priveleges. So, he basically locked up all of the best attorneys in town. See what I mean?

Get a counselor that will be more objective - try to understand both of your positions. You should both be satisfied with the counselor.

If these differences continue and it doesn't look like you will be able to reconcile...you must immediately start to take care of yourself - financially, legally, emotionally, etc. Don't let him take everything after you have supported him for so long.

Best of luck my COTH friend. I'm very sorry that you're going through this and I'm sure it must be very difficult for you. I hope things work out, but either way - you will be okay. You're a horse woman - we're strong.

Critters Everywhere

Sep. 14, 2005, 07:23 PM

Oh, the echoes & memories! The more you say, the more your situation sounds like mine used to.

I, too, always made more than my husband. We followed my career from Day 1. My husband, too, had more-than-your-usual-baggage from childhood. I, too, was blindsided when my husband out of the blue said he was miserable, hated pretty much everything about our priorities, regretted marrying me, & had thought many, many times about just driving off & never coming home.

In our case, it turned out to be combination of unspoken (& unmet) expectations, poor communication all-around on everything, making assumptions about what the other felt/saw/knew, trying to hard for the wrong reasons, AND...one of the biggies...true chemical depression in my husband. We were both so good at hiding our emotional distress, things got very, very bad before either of us knew that the other was unhappy. There were plenty of things that I did wrong as well.

I have to say though, aside from the seperation (which neither one of us initially wanted, then I did something which he couldn't handle & he asked me to move out...best thing we ever did, other than getting back together!), the single, number one reason our marriage is now a happy, content one rather than the misery it used to be was him FINALLY agreeing to try Lexapro. The day we were sitting in a doctor's office and there was a poster on the board about depression & we were reading it (for lack of anything better to do while we waited) & he said he answered 'yes' to every single one of those questions...well, let's just say it was eye-opening!

Good luck to you. (Obviously) I don't know where you're from, but if you need a shoulder to cry on (or an anonymous person to vent at), give a holler. There's nothing more important in this time than the support & love of friends.

onelanerode

Sep. 14, 2005, 07:24 PM

So sorry that you're going through this ... I can't imagine what that would be like! I don't really have any positive experiences to share, because I haven't gotten that far down the road yet. I'm almost engaged to a wonderful man and we've both said we don't want kids (though if an Oops happened that'd be OK), but I worry what may happen if one of us changes his/her mind. My mother didn't want children when she married at 23, and neither did my father. At 27, she changed her mind. Right now, all it takes is a dinner out or a trip to WalMart to remind me how much I don't want kids, but I worry if that'll change, and how my SO and I will handle that.

Babies aren't a fill to a need ... they should be an added blessing to a healthy, open, loving, understanding and fulfilling relationship between two people. It's not fair to the child to bring him/her into a world where one person is a parent but reluctantly so ... that only breeds resentment.

I do agree that you need a counselor who will listen to both of you and help both of you ... siding with one person makes any counseling one-sided and ultimately unhelpful for either person.

I'll be thinking about you and hoping everything turns out for the best. Good luck. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

silver

Sep. 14, 2005, 07:31 PM

It sounds like he's extremely depressed and wants to have a child in order to "fix" everything that went wrong with his childhood. Finishing grad school is an horrendously difficult time too as you start thinking about how you are locked into a career now and coming up with wild possibilities and all the stuff you want to do but can't now because you have to get a REAL job. Also your counselor sounds like an idiot.

Personally I'd tell him that you don't think he'd mentally competent to even think about having kids right now and that he needs to get his shit together and not blame his indecision and desire for a completely different life on you. If you think there's anyway you might ever compromise and have kids tell him to sign up for a mentoring program or volunteer at a school to prove to you that he's serious about the kid thing. And that there is no way you are having children with someone who cannot handle their own problems and is not stable in their life. I predict that once he gets a job and starts earning some money and everything settles down he'll stabilise.

In the meantime maybe you guys should try and go on a vacation someplace to celebrate him finsihing school? Something you've both always wanted to do that reminds you of why you choose the DINK lifestyle in the first place http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

lost

Sep. 14, 2005, 07:33 PM

Don't worry about me having children just to fill some "perceived need" by my husband. That is the last thing on my mind. I did agree to try to get to the root/explore the background of why I didn't want them....but it doesn't seem worth it when he is absent on a daily basis from the emotional aspect of our marriage - a totally foreign concept in our relationship.

He says he knows that NONE of this is my fault and that he never meant to hurt me....it is all starting to sound so meaningless.

He has a family history of depression, and was evaluated for depression at the request of our counsellor. Psychiatrist said no, it was just a situational short term thing. No meds needed. I disagree.

I also think that the void he is now realizing he has in his life ( at least that is what he calls it), he believes children will fill the emptiness. I am certain this is dead wrong and that he needs to get to the root of his emptiness. But he, and the counsellor are certain that he really does want kids.

Pocket Pony

Sep. 14, 2005, 07:42 PM

I'm sorry to hear you are going through this. My ex-husband and I got divorced partly because of the kid issue. In our situation, I suppose it was me who did the "leading on". We met in college and I assumed that one day I would want kids. As I grew older and matured, I realized that I did NOT want them. It wasn't a matter of getting to a certain point in my life, it was a matter of having no desire whatsoever to be a mother. He tried to give me the "it will be different when you have them", "you'd be such a great mom", "who will take care of us when we're older", blah blah blah bullcrap.

And he also felt like he came second to the horses. Which he did. Being married to him was like having a child and it wasn't really an equal partnership.

Anyways, I'll stop going on about myself.

You need to be true to what you want or don't want out of your life. If you don't want kids, then DON'T HAVE THEM. You will be a million times more miserable if you give in to something that is not in your heart.

Divorce is not fun and it is hard even in the best of circumstances.

But I must say that it was a major turning point in my life and I have never been happier since leaving my ex-husband. (I re-married almost a year ago and have the most wonderful, amazing, loving, supportive PARTNER who is at this very moment in the kitchen making me dinner http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif).

You can get through this and you WILL be happy again.

Critters Everywhere

Sep. 14, 2005, 07:48 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lost:
He has a family history of depression, and was evaluated for depression at the request of our counsellor. Psychiatrist said no, it was just a situational short term thing. No meds needed. I disagree. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This one is really, really easy & cheap to test. My husband also swore up & down that it was the situation (hated his work partner, stressed about money, blah, blah, blah). He agreed to try Lexapro for one month. If he didn't need it, it wouldn't hurt him (and with insurance was only about $15...the doctor even offered 2 weeks of free samples). If it helped, he'd know within that month.

It helped. A lot.

Critters Everywhere

Sep. 14, 2005, 07:50 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lost:
I also think that the void he is now realizing he has in his life ( at least that is what he calls it), he believes children will fill the emptiness. I am certain this is dead wrong and that he needs to get to the root of his emptiness. But he, and the counsellor are certain that he really does want kids. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Would he be willing to sign up for the Big Brother/Big Sister program? It might help fill whatever 'void' is there, as well as helping him experience some of the realities of having children.

SaddleFitterVA

Sep. 14, 2005, 07:54 PM

Ironically the only couple I knew well enough on this issue it was the WOMAN who changed her mind.

HE did not want children, ever. Doesn't like them. One day, SHE changed her mind...and had 2 kids.

Now that one is a teenager, he does a bit more with them, but a non-participating father who provides all the monetary needs is still lacking.

I would assume there would be similar issues with a reluctant mother and attentive father, and requisite nannies and babysitters.

This couple did not divorce, but had the roles been reversed they probably would have. In that one place, a biological child, women do have an edge in the relationship, assuming fertility is not an issue.

People do change, and either you will figure it out together or move on to a new phase in life with someone different.

I agree w/ the people who say to talk to your own counselor.

Mel

luveventing

Sep. 14, 2005, 08:00 PM

just my little two cents here-slightly off topic, but I totally can understand where you are coming from, have had this talk a LOT.... I am also in the not really wanting children club. I may at some point agree to ONE, but it would take A LOT of convincing (and pretty much a time frame where I had no horses I could ride and no shows to go to!) and I think by that point I will be too old to get pregnant!

but I am so sick and tired of society (AND family!!!) pressuring women and/or couples to have children because thats what you are supposed to do. you get married, you have kids. if you truely do not want kids, dont have them. some people arent meant to have children and just because you can doesnt mean you should. I still feel that I would be incredibly jealous and selfish if I had a child that took away from my riding. that sure as hell isnt the mind set you want your mother to have!! if more people would really sit down and think about what it means to have a child and what you must give up for that child, I think we would have a lot less problems in this world.

it is very possible that now that you are married he is feeling that need to be the "norm". as much as its 2005, things are still very traditional and I think horsewoman tend to be much more independant and dont always fit into that norm. I have friends YOUNGER than me, early 20s, (that are ALREADY married to the first guy they ever dated -three of my friends!) that still will run home and cook dinner for their hubbys and miss out on riding their horse because they need to clean and do laundry. (no offense to those of you, I am glad you do exist in this world!) but its just not something I would do. luckily my husband has been witness to this for four years, so he doesnt expect much more than for me to come home sweaty, smelly, tired and hungry. but when I have the time I really try to make him know how much I appreciate the days he doesnt complain that I am at the barn two more hours to ride another horse for someone.

So I guess the moral is you arent alone in your feelings and you certainly arent wrong for feeling the way you do. he may be feeling pressure since you are married to have the whole "leave it to beaver" happy little home. you need to honestly look at the situation and see if you can both live happily with what you both need and what you are both willing to give up. I think to be a good parent, you need to be willing to give up your life for your child- not to say you would HAVE to, but I think you have to be willing to do it to say you are ready. (I could be off base here being childless, but thats how I feel...the day I can say that is the day I am ready to have kids.)

ok, sorry for the looooooong post. this topic just hit really close to home.

Hopeful Hunter

Sep. 14, 2005, 08:01 PM

oy. I'm sorry. Situations like this are never pretty, never easy, and never welcome. *hugs*

FWIW, I was married before. To a wonderful man, who was told by me, my friends and my mother (and we won't go into THAT one.....let's just say she was not exactly supporting her daughter there....) that I was a lot different from what everyone thought he wanted, and was that OK? He swore it was, and I think he genuinely believed it could be.

I was, and am, not very traditional. I had no intention of changing my name, so far I'm over 40 and my biological clock has yet to turn on, and I'm a very liberal, sometimes loud feminist semi-pagan woman. My ex was and is a conservative, traditional Catholic man.

After almost 4 years of marriage, some work changes for both of us caused other stresses to emerge. Seems he had thought that once we were married and I got comfortable and secure in our relationship -- which I did -- I'd "settle" a bit. And take his name, and be more like a "wife" and maybe want kids. Instead, I DID get more comfortable and secure....enough to become more outspoken and confident in those causes that mattered to me. The end result was that we split -- he remains a friend and a great guy, but not the right one for me. It was difficult and confusing to our families, since there didn't seem to be anything WRONG with the marriage. And there wasn't -- we just weren't right, either. Love wasn't the issue, but it also wasn't enough.

I've been married again now for over a dozen years. I didn't WANT to get remarried -- I'd gotten to a place where things were OK and didn't want the aggravation of a relationship. And my husband was in the same place. But...we met, and something really did just "click" as they say.

My husband knew I was not likely to have kids, and as he was ambivalent on it, that was OK. We very much share core values and I believe and hope we both respect each other, and issues that resonate and matter to me matter to him, too. We spend a lot of time doing different things, but overall we support each other in those pursuits.

There are issues, of course. And, as we continue on the downside of our 40s I DO worry one day he'll wake up and say "damn! Kids! Wonder if I should do that?" and well, that will end it. BUT...

From my first marriage I've learned that I have the right to insist that my core values are respected in a relationship. It's my responsibility to communicate those values, and any changes or concerns about them, but those values aren't negotiable. It's also my responsibility to acknowledge and respect my partner's core values. And if something changes and either of us find we can't do so, we need to get counseling - together AND alone (I'm a firm advocate of each partner having "their own" space along with something mutual) - and see if we can grow to understand and respect the changes, and if not, to part with dignity.

I'm sorry to share this, but it may be helpful. All I can say is try to use this situation to really determine what your critical needs are, and who you are. I hope things work out as they need to, and that whatever that is is not too painful, and good things come soon!

carolprudm

Sep. 14, 2005, 08:06 PM

Oh Dear.
The fact that he doesn't want to be the primary caregiver leads me to believe that he doesn't really want to have children. He wants the "leave it to Beaver" life style. And he is putting the onus on you to make it happen. I'm not a psychologist (I can't even spell it!) but from what you have posted I think he could be trying to create a life he didn't have as a child. If you heart is not in it you can't do that for him....AND SHOULDN'T. It won't work because you won't be able to play the part he is expecting.

fullmoon fever

Sep. 14, 2005, 08:10 PM

My first marriage (of almost 20 yrs.) ended after I got completely fed up with the lazy bum. He knew from the get-go that children were a NO for me. I had decided when I was 12 that I hated them and would never have any. At 25, I had a tubal ligation. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I was fortunate that the lazy bum stuck by his word and never pressed the issue of children with me. At the age of 53, he is now a dad. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Since I've had a hysterectomy, I don't worry about it at all now and I'm married to a wonderful guy who says he is sure he shoots blanks so he's never thought about having kids; figured it wasn't in the cards for him.

Anyway, a friend of mine did have a baby to "save her marriage" (on the advice of a marriage counsellor). The marriage ended 2 mos. after the baby was born and she's been stuck with it for 21+ years.

There really seems to be a helluva lot more going on than your DH just "feeling the need" to have kids. I ditto all the other advice about the counsellor and being prepared for what may come (especially on the legal front).

Sorry I'm not much of a ray of sunshine. Hope you are able to get through this and find your life. *hugs*

carosello

Sep. 14, 2005, 08:14 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by luveventing:

... but I am so sick and tired of society (AND family!!!) pressuring women and/or couples to have children because thats what you are supposed to do. you get married, you have kids. if you truly do not want kids, don't have them. some people aren't meant to have children and just because you can doesn't mean you should. ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Boy is that the truth! And if you do have one they still don't stop. Incredibly frustrating.

I ditto another counselor. It only makes sense to find that "neutral" person who can help you walk thru this.

No other advice just wanted to tell you, you are not alone nor the first/last to go down this lane. Jingles

littleum

Sep. 14, 2005, 08:33 PM

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Hugs- what an awful upside down cake that must be on the kitchen floor. I do agree you need to get some 2nd opinions on this- I can't believe any good therapist would recommend children for a troubled marriage.

While I guess I could understand him having a breakthrough in therapy that relieved fear/anxiety about contining a bad family legacy in a fatherhood role, the other stuff (mostly not wanting to raise them) would sending my eyebrows straight into my hairline.

You say all this, and a mental picture from a 1950s-esque sitcom just ran through my head: Father comes home from work. Wife has dinner on table and the houes is pristine. The ideal 2.4 children trot up, give Father kisses, dinner is polite and civil and then the kids run off to play quietly while you knit and he reads the paper. My amateur mind wonders if maybe he suddenly wants a family to "overcome" the less-then-ideal circumstances of his own childhood, and Leave It To Beaver is the model he's chosen.

This might sound crazy, but I'd tell Mr Littleum to WRITE OUT or even better, make a VIDEO of his wants & desires. Then I'd give it back to him a day or two later and tell him to read it to me/watch it with me. Sometimes re-reading or watching something after the fact can have a real impact.

Sympathies, and hang in there...

Smigget

Sep. 14, 2005, 09:19 PM

Gosh, I'm only 17, and I'm already worried about this! *sigh* I'm thinking that if I want to get into horses big time, I'm going to stay single. I'm terrified I'll fall in love with someone from a large family who wants kids and is allergic to horses or something. Or, yeah. *shudder*

Nothing to add, but (((((HUGS)))))

EponaRoan

Sep. 14, 2005, 10:20 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I did agree to try to get to the root/explore the background of why I didn't want them.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It doesn't really matter why you don't want them if you don't want them. I don't want a cat or a bird. Nothing wrong with them, I just don't want 'em. Or children for that matter, although I'm happily single.

There's a newsgroup - alt.support.childfree - that you can search in Google. Lots of folks in your shoes or who have been in your shoes.

I'll PT you with a link/info on a childfree mailing list. It's sort of closed/private, so I don't want to post the info publicly since we get the occasional troll (who is pretty promptly axed, but ...).

Kaydence

Sep. 15, 2005, 12:45 AM

I haven't read any of the responses but your post just reminds me of so many friends.

First, the friend who, while planning her marriage, was totally caught off guard when he started making suggestions on how to spend the money from the sale of her horse. She clearly stated there would be no sale of her horse. He thought she was joking. She thought they'd cleared things up before getting married but 13 years later he left her, the horse was still with her, and she is totally obsessed with her ex-husband to this day. Gorgeous, brilliant, funny lady, who doesn't realize her own qualities without him. Very sad. Good thing she still has her horse to hold her together on the worst days.

Then the gal who never wanted children. She took the pill for 2 years while pretending she wasn't taking it. When he started suggesting going to the doctor to find out which one of them was having the problems, she decided to go off the pill. Her son was less than a year old when she left her husband. She always treats the child as this huge burden and it shows in his behaviour.

If I had to venture a guess, you won't save your marriage by having a child. Sleepless nights and unwelcome sacrifices are not what a rocky marriage is improved upon.

Going through a divorce is so very hard but going through a divorce with a child is so much harder than that. You should be proud of how self-aware you are in not choosing to have kids for your own reasons.

Oh, just think of putting the child before yourself, and that means your not even conceived yet child too! If you put the child first, you won't get pregnant under such conditions.

And I'm sorry you have to think of these things at all.

JRG

Sep. 15, 2005, 02:21 AM

I want to start off by saying I am no means a councellor.

Having been through a similiar situation with my first husband. I can simpathize.

A couple of things go through my head. You are in councling and it does two things. One, it could be unleasing the desire to have kids that were suppressed at the time the two of you had married. It is amazing what you can convince yourself of if the right situation presents itself. Two, he could be thinking that things are so uncomfortable that he feels a child may help him get back what he feels that he missed as a child himself. We all know that that never works out but he is not thinking that way.

Unfortunately you have a big choice to make. Stick it out and see if his feelings level out and come back to the way you two had discussed or be prepared to have him say that it is something that he really wants and will regret not having children. It is a really tough choice. I would suggest your own therapist too.

I too had had the "big conversation" about children before I was married both times. My first husband thought I would "change my mind" and become the traditional wife. Needless to say I am on my second husband. We are not perfect and have been together for a few years, every once and a while he has said he might be changing his mind and wants children, but stick him in a room with kids for 30min. and he quickly changes his mind. Especially because he knows I am not the traditional women which is why he married my in the first place.

But I can't say in the back of my head it doesn't worry me that he has had thoughts about changing his mind. But if he did, I would still love him and let him go. It would be very hard.

I can only say that you have a long road ahead. Get someone to talk to, that you can unburden yourself with, a therapist. I feel for you.

Reynard Ridge

Sep. 15, 2005, 02:52 AM

Sorry for your pain - you are in my thoughts. Can't imagine what it must be like for your world to turn upside down like this.

Bogey

Sep. 15, 2005, 03:26 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Sharing the same interests isn't the key, respect honesty and love are. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

well put carolprudm! My husband plays golf, I was not in to horses until a few years after we married. We both did not want children. We are both passionate about our sport but at the expense of each other.

Just My Style

Sep. 15, 2005, 04:02 AM

I am always sorry to hear about things like this. Good for you for being honest with yourself about what you want out of life. No one should ever have a child because someone else wants them to. I feel strongly that both parents need be 100% on board and be willing to give the child 100% commitment or they shouldn't have kids.

As far as the horses, my husband has always said that the horse is cheaper than a marriage counselor (or a divorce). He knows that they are a part of who I am and not just a "hobby".

Good luck with everything. Just remember to be true to yourself and your needs. You only go around this world once and you need to make the best decisions for you.

shea'smom

Sep. 15, 2005, 04:07 AM

If the doctor doesn't think your husband should try anti-depressants, get another doctor. At my worst, I had various HUGE troubles mentally, that I look back now and think, what was the big deal? The meds fixed me and changed my outlook on everything!
Best of luck to you both.

WildWest

Sep. 15, 2005, 04:14 AM

((Hugs)) Lost.

Not entirely relevant to this conversation but as a child of a mother who was pressurised into having children when she never really wanted them and didn't have a maternal bone in her body (she had 4 of them) I would never ever say to anyone to compromise themselves to have children when they don't want them not matter how much pressure is put on them.
My mother grew up in an era when it was expected. Both her parents and parents in law pretty much hung out waiting for the first grandchild the minute she walked down the aisle.

My childhood was miserable, None of us children ever felt loved. My mother was always distant and cold.
Now shes a grandmother and still struggles with
her grandchildren even though she dosen't have to deal with them alot. It breaks my heart to see the hurt in the eyes of her grandkids when she repels them. (she dosen't even realise what she is doing, her actions are so ingrained) I know what they are feeling because I felt it myself and still do even though I am an adult.

I always thought no one noticed how she was until I recently met a childhood friend who I have not seen for 20 years. We chatted for a bit about old times and she told me how sorry she always felt for me as my parents were always so unsupportive and cold. She told me things I never even thought about. How I battled to find rides, rode my bike for miles to search out horses to ride in the cold and wet. How sad I always was when I was at home and how I loved to get away and find horses.
I used to ride my bike an hour and a half in all weathers to a barn whenever I could so I could get rides.

Wow sorry for all this. Thanks for letting me tell my story anyway. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Me well I ended my first marriage after 2 years.
He was pressuring me to have kids. I knew I couldn't. I walked. I spent the next 10 years on my own and then met my current man. We had only been together a short time and I knew I wanted his children. It seemed so right (and still is 10 years later)

Declaring

Sep. 15, 2005, 04:24 AM

I hate that some people think they have the right to project what is normal in a relationship onto others and can upset people as much as they want because they must be right.

I remember at the age of 24 being read the riot act by some stupid woman at a staff party because I said I did not want kids. 'What about your boyfriend', she yelled, 'he'd make a great dad, you can't deny him children.'

'My Mike's last girl was like her', she then announced smugly to the table. 'Didn't want kids- Career motivated, so he left her.'

('Her Mike' had left her for yet another woman not 3 months earlier and come back and she had nearly smoked and drunk herself to death.. what a lovely relationship to be in.)

Of course me and my boyfriend split about a year later, him cheating on me, and blaming my horse obsession for the split. So I could have ended up abandoned by an immature prat and lumbered with a kid I would resent for the rest of it's life poor thing because I could not juggle the horses, college and a job around the child.

So in variations, I think the no children and the horse thing can be a factor in a lot of relationships.

I am so so sorry this is happening to you. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
I hope you are holding up ok. Sending lots of good wishes from overseas.

Evalee Hunter

Sep. 15, 2005, 04:39 AM

She who laughs last, laughs best.

You WILL laugh last, I assure you. I was one who didn't think I would survive a divorce - this was 30 some years ago. Well, I did survive &, in the long run, I was better off.

Hang in there. Everyone is pulling for you.

bjrudq

Sep. 15, 2005, 04:40 AM

imo silver nailed it.

you guys need to see a better counselor.

until your husband resolves his issues with his childhood, he is not ready to have children. and once he has figured that out, things may get better.

he is going through a lot, and your counselor is recommending having a child for all the wrong reasons.

if i were you i'd:

line up my ducks financially, in case i decide to leave the marriage, maybe even consult a lawyer;

find a different counselor. if he won't go, go by yourself;

try to be loving and supportive as you can be.

if you don't want kids, do NOT allow anyone to pressure you into having them. especially not someone as ambivalent about it as your husband!(and yes, he is ambivalent, if he doesn't want to share the parenting duties.)

my personal story: i got married at age 38 to a man who already had a son, and did not want any more children. i never wanted kids anyway, so fine with me.

two years later after a death in my family and a bunch of other stuff(and that biologicval clock!), i changed my mind; and my husband got very enthusiastic about having a baby; i got pregnant, ended up having a daughter at age 41.

but at the time neither of us had any issues. and both of us wanted the baby. as my due date drew near, i became very afraid that i had made a mistake and would not want the baby and to want to take care of her. i told my husband, "what if i don't love her? what if i don't want to care for her?" he replied, "then you just hand her to me and i will take care of her."

VERY different than your husband. and mine has been a very active, involved father for 13 years; he probably does as much as i do if not more.

VirginiaBred

Sep. 15, 2005, 05:07 AM

lost, your post had me thinking about you last night. As I posted at the beginning, it DOES seem sudden, but him getting out of school and discovering/discussing childhood's ugly past has made him feel disconnected. He is assuming children and your being at home will fill the void and give him the happy childhood he didn't have? Perhaps that is it.

At any rate, you must insist on a non-partial counselor for the two of you, and perhaps one for yourself.

I have two lovely children, but as I posted earlier, my 2nd husband left me, and one of the reasons stated later was he didn't want to raise more children. (as if he didn't know I had them before we married)

I know your feelings of helplessness and hopelessness. I have been there. But from what you have posted, he needs very much to get some help and healing of his own feelings, before going further.

I'll be keeping you in my thoughts.

monalisa

Sep. 15, 2005, 05:17 AM

Lost:
Marriage and any good relationship is built on compromise. You both need to give. In my humble opinion, a great relationship with your husband is extremely important and ALL alternatives should be considered.

You need to somehow give on the horse issue and he somehow needs to give on the children issue. I don't know what that answer is, but if you both stand your ground you will find yourself in divorce court. As someone who has gone through divorce, it is the MOST PAINFUL experience of my life and I would NOT wish that on anyone - and I walked out of my first marriage.

I ride and have a husband, but I too have to give. It is lonely to be home weekend after weekend alone. I used to show all of the time and if I had kept it up I too would be single again. I don't go to Florida anymore cause it is too much time away from home. There is a way to make it work but you both have to want the relationship to work more than anything else in order for it to work.

Your horses are wonderful but they won't take care of you at the end of your life.

Ridgetop Ghost

Sep. 15, 2005, 05:47 AM

Coupla things:

I've often had more money than the men I date, and I've helped them along. Without fail, the SECOND they have money of their own, they BOLT.

I've found that men who have problems stemming from poor childhoods often bring along "baggage" that I'm not equipped to (and don't care to) deal with. My policy is to run screaming when these things surface, and they don't often surface in the beginning.

It seems like the hardest thing in the world to do, but once you dump the sniveling little weasel and stick to your guns about it, you will wonder what you ever saw in him 6 months later. And you'll realize you're relieved to be rid of him. And you'll be so much happier in your own life. And if you see him with a new woman, you'll PITY HER.

Being single is AWESOME!!!!! No one to disappoint you, control you, boss you around, act like a big baby, take your money, etc. As a single person, you enjoy your freedom to come and go as you please, interact with anyone you want, you have control of your remote (YEAH!!!!), you can spend your money as you please, and you are free to find a better deal than the one you left. I'm not opposed to marriage, but I can't see sticking around when you are obviously unhappy and he is the source of your misery. I'd say sayonara, baby, as fast as possible. The way I look at it is that I am nice, clean, decent, respectful, and if the other person can't at least be those simple and basic things, you are wasting your valuable time. Life is short--dump this loser and kick up your heels!

Oh, and here's some hugs {{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}, 'casue the first 6 months SUCK (but it gets better, trust me).

PMJ

Sep. 15, 2005, 05:53 AM

I was telling my husband about your post last night and he was talking with me about it. It was interesting because he is a court authorized mediator--at some point in the future, all family court matters will be refered to mediators before going foreward to family court--and his point was that while you are very willing to see the other side of things, ie your husband's side, he is unwilling to compromise, of which I'm sure you are well aware. When people are not willing to meet at some point of compromise it is very hard to do much and in this case, you have a councilor that is "on his side" as it were. You certainly need someone who is impartial and helps sort the issues, not someone who takes sides. Is this the same person who has helped him sort out his prior issues?

While he and the therapist may be convinced he wants a child, if he has childhood issues, it often takes much longer to work through those and prep yourself to be a parent--as evidenced by his current behavior. Someone who shuts out his wife and lover and the person with whom he seemingly wants to have a child with in order to selfishly get his way is in no way ready to bring a child into this world, much less parent.

Again, my heart goes out to you and you are in my prayers.

Timex

Sep. 15, 2005, 07:08 AM

yikes. first off, my sympathies. been there, done that. my ex and i were both of the mind that we didn't want kids. he had his own thing, i had mine, and kids didn't figure into that picture. we got married, and suddenly, everything changed. i was supposed to drop everything and be mommy and the perfect wife. his words: "i always imagined that we'd end up like my parents in 20 years'. yeah, as if. his mom quit her job to raise 2 kids and keep house, all while working a part time job, and once the kids were grown, she was keeping house, working a full time and a part time job, all while coddling her husband. nope, i'm NOT doing that. and when my ex said he wanted kids (where did THAT come from?!?!?) i know how it would end up. he'd come home from work, pat little Johnny on the head, plop himself down in the recliner and send the kid off to mommy. nope, i'm far too selfish and self centered (admittedly) to be a 24/7 mommy. i want to go ride, have *me* time, and a LIFE. well, fast forward a few years. my OOPS baby is 19 months old tomorrow, i love him to death, his daddy (my boyfriend, we haven't gotten around to getting married - and maybe we won't) is a great father, who is willing to work nights, while i work days so that the baby doesn't have to go to daycare and be with strangers. The baby loves his ponies, my horses are really good with him, he comes to the barn and plays while i ride, is very social, so he'll hang out where ever i take him, and basically, has made things very easy for me to be both a mommy and myself. i got lucky. not everyone is that lucky. but my son was an oops, i was on the pill when i got pregnant. having a kid to save a marriage will never work. find yourself a different counsellor. like others have said, it sounds like he has decided that having the 'Leave It TO Beaver' kind of life will somehow make up for his crappy childhood. which obviously, it won't. Good luck to you.

J Swan

Sep. 15, 2005, 07:21 AM

I'm sorry to hear of your troubles. I can't offer any advice - I've been married almost 20 years - we both decided we didn't want kids before we got married. (We eloped at 19). We've survived the strange looks, the occasional ridicule or name calling, etc.

I have a good marriage that has its ups and downs - and sometimes the downs last a while.

When faced with an ongoing crisis, I ask myself what is REALLY the problem. Is it him? Or is it the situation? If it's the situation, will it change, can we compromise, or can I live with it? If it's him - what is motivating his behavior? Am I contributing to the negative behavior? Will it change? Should it change? Can I live with the outcome and be a happy, healthy person?

Obviously having a child is not going to solve any problems. So if the counselor is advising that - she/he should be strung up.

The child is not the issue - something else is. If you can work though that together as a couple, identify exactly what the source of the problem is - THEN you can make decisions about where to go.

If he's got unresolved issues from childhood - he needs to work that out (with you by his side).

Then, if it turns out that he really cannot be a happy, healthy person unless he becomes a father, you can make a decision for your own life. And if you don't want to become a parent, then you two will need to decide whether to remain married.

Seahorsefarmtobe

Sep. 15, 2005, 07:25 AM

No advice, but I did lose my fiancé (he decided he DID want kids after all). Whose tag line on COTH says: "If I wanted to hear the pitter-patter of little feet, I'd put shoes on my cat!"
I identify with that 100%! I have beasties instead of kids http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Won For Me

Sep. 15, 2005, 07:26 AM

Lost,
I cannot tell you how this absolutely tore me up inside to read. I am trying so hard not to cry sitting here in my office with the phones ringing off the hook and hundreds of emails to read.

This did not start recently. It started 2 years ago. When he became selfish about the move. He had to have it his way. No ranchette. Only the biggest house. Remember his push to be on the water? Trying to move you away from the horses. The horsey area that you loved.

Remember when you were not ready for the puppy, but he had to have one? Hmmm, I remember it being the puppy he wanted. Who was the primary, oops strike that, the ONLY caregiver?

It is a status thing with him. The house, the careers, the 2.5 kids, the car (take the freaking keys back now!).

You are the most amazing woman. He should be on his knees every night thanking whomever that you are in his life. You have always done a better job than anyone else of making sure the horses did not take over. You are a master at the balancing act.

I am sorry if I put too many personal details out there, but you are so loved and respected by all your friends. You know I will always be there whatever you decide and support you 100%. It sounds so simple, but one of the things that I had to remind myself of was that you have to go through it to get through it. Whatever path that is.
Hugs from me and the boys.

nettiemaria

Sep. 15, 2005, 07:30 AM

Saw, had to respond. Yes, lost marriage PARTLY due to him not wanting children, after I had spent alot of time, money, etc. trying to get that. Gee, I thought that's what I was doing in those three painful surgeries, but . . ..

The only success I can say is that even though it was two years of HELL, now my life is much better for it, and have a wonderful husband, wonderful home, and everything I have ever dreamed of. Good luck!

As an aside, old hubby (who didn't want any children) married ACTUALLY kind of part of MY family, and she got pregnant (before marriage) and now they have a child, who is related to my brother's child, my neice. Weird and sick. Yuk!

Perfect Pony

Sep. 15, 2005, 07:38 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Critters Everywhere:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lost:
He has a family history of depression, and was evaluated for depression at the request of our counsellor. Psychiatrist said no, it was just a situational short term thing. No meds needed. I disagree. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This one is really, really easy & cheap to test. My husband also swore up & down that it was the situation (hated his work partner, stressed about money, blah, blah, blah). He agreed to try Lexapro for one month. If he didn't need it, it wouldn't hurt him (and with insurance was only about $15...the doctor even offered 2 weeks of free samples). If it helped, he'd know within that month.

It helped. A lot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This I couldn't disagree more with. Herion might make the guy happy and seem "normal" again, it doesn't mean he needs it.

The guy has shown no "clinical" signs of depression for how many years? Sorry, I totally do not buy that all of a sudden this guy had some "chemical switch" go off in his brain that means he needs meds, merely because the guy has finally come to some realizations in his life that you don't agree with!

A doctor has already said he isn't sick. We all go through life changes and change our minds, or old issues get triggered and make us think differently. My bet is the guy is coming into his own, finally has the emotional strength to deal with his past issues, and is coming to some discoveries about himself that maybe aren't what he thought about himself a couple years ago.

I think the worst thing you could do is go around to doctors until one of them drugs your husband into being the person you want him to be. 80% of people on anti-depressants get them from a GP because they are "sad". What happens when the happy pills stop working? What happens when he realizes he doesn't need nor want them next year, and his desire for kids is still there? What happens when he's pissed off at you next year for treating HIS FEELINGS like a mental illness?

I certainly wouldn't want a man around that I had drugged into agreeing with me.

Instant Karma

Sep. 15, 2005, 07:48 AM

I don't have any advice really, other than to say I am so sorry for what you are going through.

My fiance and I have been together for over 5 years- we actually moved in together almost immediately. The first day we met, we talked about kids. I was adamant about not ever wanting any, and told him if that was a problem then we shouldn't even consider a relationship. He's warmed to the idea over time, as he loves animals a lot.

He has his hobbies, I have my horses. While I'd like him to come out to the barn sometime, I understand if it doesn't interest him enough.

It's not fair that you should have to suffer for your husband's fickleness with the idea of having/not having kids.

I hope it all works out for the best... things always seem to though.

Magnolia

Sep. 15, 2005, 08:01 AM

A few things.
1. People change. Maybe your husband got to a point where he decided he wanted to try raising a kid. Maybe one morning he woke up and felt children would be a good thing. My mom never wanted kids. Then ding ding... age 35, wanted a kid. It happens.

2. Don't have a kid of you don't want one. I was at lunch the other day prattling on about all the things I do. I don't have kids. If you like, horses, career, free time, whatever, a kid's gonna put a dent in that. If you have a kid, you will make sacrifices. My boss has a nanny. She still devotes a lot of time to her kids. Her only "own time" is an hour at Yoga every weekend. She's not bitter or sad, but then, she WANTED children.

I'd sit down with hubby and say, look, I don't want children. If you want children, you need a different wife, and I wish you luck.

Here's another thought... and I do this to Mr. Magnolia rather frequently when he decides he wants a kid. I send him to his friend's house where there are 3 kids for the day! Can you borrow someones children for a day? So he can see how much work and responsibility is involved? Kind of like leasing a horse.

Lucassb

Sep. 15, 2005, 08:10 AM

I wonder from what has been posted so far, if your husband wants children, or some vision of life where children are part of the "perfect picture."

The reason that I say this is the comment that he wants children, but doesn't want to be the caregiver. People who actually want kids want to PARENT them. People who think that they "should have" kids as part of the package want someone ELSE to parent them. (That would be YOU.)

For people like this, I find that the list of things they "need" to have is neverending. They are trying to fill emotional voids with physical things - with predictable results.

And yes, my first husband was the poster child for this behavior. At the time we divorced, I was devastated. Not long after, I found myself thanking God every day that the marriage ended.

As an aside, I always knew I never wanted kids and rolled my eyes when people would protest, "oh but you'd be such a great mom." Maybe yes, maybe no - but it was a moot point since I just didn't want to. Fast forward to this year when I married a GREAT guy with a pre-teen son. He's a nice kid (he even rides!) and my husband is a very involved primary parent - and yet being a "bonus parent" is still without question the hardest thing I have ever done. The normal things that kids do - which many people find so charming - will grate on your last nerve if you are not child-oriented. And if you think you are considered the "bad guy" now for not wanting kids, you can't even IMAGINE how you'd be painted as a parent that got pressured into having kids you didn't really want (the resentment shows, I promise.)

Dow Jones

Sep. 15, 2005, 08:11 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Perfect Pony:
80% of people on anti-depressants get them from a GP because they are "sad". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do wish you wouldn't throw about your opinions disguised as facts. If you are going to cite statistics, have the studies ready to back them up.

Lost, I'm sorry for what you are going through.

Windsor

Sep. 15, 2005, 08:15 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The reason that I say this is the comment that he wants children, but doesn't want to be the caregiver. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, that struck me as total BS too--"I want kids as long as YOU'RE the one investing most of the time, effort, etc. raising them." Talk about your red flags.

Wish I had some words of wisdom for you, lost, but I hope you've gotten some insight into your situation from all the other posts, and that things work out well for you.

Critters Everywhere

Sep. 15, 2005, 08:30 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dow Jones:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Perfect Pony:
80% of people on anti-depressants get them from a GP because they are "sad". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do wish you wouldn't throw about your opinions disguised as facts. If you are going to cite statistics, have the studies ready to back them up.

Lost, I'm sorry for what you are going through. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dow Jones...PP is very obviously someone who has never lived with someone with true clinical depression who is afraid to admit it. It's amazing how well someone can hide their feelings when they choose to. I think most of us have done it at one time or another in our lives. People like PP who refuse to admit that it can be chemical rather than situational and have no clue about the chemistry involved are the reason that my husband keeps it very quiet that he is now taking Lexapro. And is the same reason that even though my mother was a complete wreck for many, many years she never was willing to go in & talk to a doctor. My husband lied to psychologists for YEARS about what he was thinking/feeling...how were they supposed to diagnose him correctly?

Perfect Pony

Sep. 15, 2005, 08:33 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dow Jones:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Perfect Pony:
80% of people on anti-depressants get them from a GP because they are "sad". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do wish you wouldn't throw about your opinions disguised as facts. If you are going to cite statistics, have the studies ready to back them up.

Lost, I'm sorry for what you are going through. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I will continue to look for the exact article that cites the current exact number. It was more than 60% in 2003 and had grown to approx 80% in 2005. This is from 2003.

I will cite a quick quote from this article
http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/2004-08-20-prozac-n...he-party-is-over.htm (http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/2004-08-20-prozac-nation-the-party-is-over.htm)

"Glenmullen says he himself prescribes SSRIs when appropriate but is dismayed to see patients who have been prescribed antidepressants for every triviality, from nail-biting to boyfriend breakups. It is easy to see where overprescribing could become a habit. General practitioners, internists and family doctors are, at times, penalized by health insurers for making referrals to psychiatrists. These first-line doctors write 73% of all antidepressant scrips in America. Fact: We now spend more on mood-altering drugs for our children, including antidepressants, than we spend on antibiotics."

Just My Style

Sep. 15, 2005, 08:34 AM

I forgot to post this the first time:
A former neighbor of mine did not want children. She is a counselor in a school and, although she loves kids, did not feel the need to have her own. Her husband pressured, stated how he was unhappy and needed a child to "complete" the family and the next thing you know she was pregnant. Guess what? Mr. Unhappy ended up cheating on his wife and leaving her for a sleezy co-worker. Now she is a single parent. Not exactly the plan that my neighbor had for herself.

Like I said before- both parties need to be 100% committed to having AND raising a child or it is not a good idea.

trubandloki

Sep. 15, 2005, 08:38 AM

Lost, I do not have anything to add as far as advice. I just wanted to say that I am sorry for what you are going thru and I hope it resolves quickly and as painlessly as possible.

Sing Mia Song

Sep. 15, 2005, 08:40 AM

Perfect Pony

Sep. 15, 2005, 08:42 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Critters Everywhere:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dow Jones:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Perfect Pony:
80% of people on anti-depressants get them from a GP because they are "sad". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do wish you wouldn't throw about your opinions disguised as facts. If you are going to cite statistics, have the studies ready to back them up.

Lost, I'm sorry for what you are going through. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dow Jones...PP is very obviously someone who has never lived with someone with true clinical depression who is afraid to admit it. It's amazing how well someone can hide their feelings when they choose to. I think most of us have done it at one time or another in our lives. People like PP who refuse to admit that it can be chemical rather than situational and have no clue about the chemistry involved are the reason that my husband keeps it very quiet that he is now taking Lexapro. And is the same reason that even though my mother was a complete wreck for many, many years she never was willing to go in & talk to a doctor. My husband lied to psychologists for YEARS about what he was thinking/feeling...how were they supposed to diagnose him correctly? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Give me a break. I have lived with MORE THAN one person who was diagnosed as "clinically depressed". I know of more than one person who has killed themselves on antidepressants. My closest cousin has been turned into a drug addict and a zombie from all the drugs she has been prescribed. I worked as a social worker for several years and seen more than most people believe me.

I also had a quack doctor try to put me on meds when I was in my late teens. My "clinical depression symptoms" were actually caused by my birth control pill, LOL, and I have been "symptom free" now for 15 years! I am thankful every day of my life I didn't listen to that quack.

Again, my comments stem from the fact that a doctor has already told them it's NOT clinical depression. I guess you know more than the doctor? Then again, due to advertising, many people think they know better than doctors now and self prescribe. A good family friend has been a pediatrician for 30 years, and says that most of the parents that come into his office now come in for meds for "diseases" they have self prescribed! He believes that less then 10% of the children and adults he sees prescribed these meds actually need them. Pretty scarey.

Timex

Sep. 15, 2005, 08:42 AM

Anne FS

Sep. 15, 2005, 08:48 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lost:
6 months ago, some secrets from his life started to unravel..and basically these very negative things are the result of his horrible horrible childhood.
.....
supported him in a very nice lifestyle. I worked two jobs and lots of extra shifts to pay for our wedding....which I didn't want - he did(all the expensive accoutrements..blah blah)
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am so so sorry. Forgive me if this has been mentioned, and I'll delete the post. All this is like deja vu for me and actually, for a few others I know. It might not be another woman, but another man.

I've seen this before, exactly the same.

Hang in there, lost. Keep in mind that if you do have the child and become the primary caretaker and the marriage breaks up, let the voice of experience (me) tell you that YOU will be the poor one. Out of the jobmarket, difficult to get good-paying jobs because you can't do all the travelling, overtime, etc. required because you have a very small child, plus you'll be stuck with the expenses of same. His std. of living will skyrocket and you will have to hang on for yourself & your child. Money for a horse? HA. And if the horses are a bone of contention for him now, he may take a perverse satisfaction in the fact that you will then HAVE to give them up. Sounds like a control issue to me.

And yes, my SO was definitely the picture-perfect one.

However, years later let me guarantee you also that life is great and living well and happily is indeed the best revenge! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Perfect Pony

Sep. 15, 2005, 08:49 AM

BTW, I really didn't mean to go on a tangent. I really feel for the OP, it is my greatest nightmare. I am about to get married on October 15th to a man I have been with for over 7 years. I am going to be 35 this Friday and I know I do not want kids. He also doesn't want kids. Even when I bring up taking in foster kids at some point he is dead against it.

This is our agreement. If he all of a sudden wanted kids I would leave him. I don't think once a person decides that is what they want they will change, especially if they let it control their life from that moment forward. I would be heartbroken, but I won't have kids just because someone else wants them.

And for the record, it wouldn't really shock me if in 5-10 years he changed his mind, and I am going into our marriage with the understanding that he might. I think people as they get older DO change their minds - in both directions, and this should be OK. I don't think he lied, and I don't think he's a bastard, or in need of medication (lol).

I wish you the best!

Critters Everywhere

Sep. 15, 2005, 09:05 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Perfect Pony:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Critters Everywhere:
PP is very obviously someone who has never lived with someone with true clinical depression who is afraid to admit it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Give me a break. I have lived with MORE THAN one person who was diagnosed as "clinically depressed". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

PP, apparently you just skimmed what I wrote. Someone who is in denial about their problem & trying to hide it is very different from someone who thinks they have a problem but doesn't.

Would you give the same advice to someone showing every sign of having a heart attack who refuses to admit it, and when you force them to go to the emergency room, LIES to the doctor about their symptoms as you would give to someone who is a chronic hypochondriac? Because that's what you're doing now.

Duffy

Sep. 15, 2005, 09:05 AM

pacificsolo - You know I love you, but...

There are times when one party can't fix what's wrong with a couple. Why should both parties be miserable because of it? I'm not saying not to TRY to fix it. But, sometimes it's beyond one's control. There is such a thing as "I made a mistake and I need to do what I can to correct it".

Don't get me wrong! I don't like the fact that I'm divorced. But, I will also say that we were pretty miserable in the last year or so of our marriage and I'm sure our lack of whatever was having an effect on our children. (I didn't realize how miserable I WAS during that last part of our 13 years together until several YEARS afterwards. The hurtfulness of him only recently stopped shocking me. Now, he's just an jack*** at times, but doesn't have the power to make me feel miserable 24/7 any more. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) If one person has given up and won't work together/making compromises, then I don't see how it CAN work.

Lost - many {{{{{hugs}}}}} to you. I truly hope, that with constructive counselling, that you and your husband will be happy together again. But, if that is not the case, please do not feel guilty and be happy yourself.

fullmoon fever

Sep. 15, 2005, 09:14 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by monalisa:
Your horses are wonderful but they won't take care of you at the end of your life. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are no guarantees that ANYONE will (except a paid caregiver). That was one of the big arguments tossed at me when I was first married: "Who'll take care of you when you're old?". If that's the only reason people have children (or get married), they need to have a good, long hard look at themselves.

I will take care of my mother in her declining years (which have started), but I'd much rather have her euthanized.

MSP

Sep. 15, 2005, 09:28 AM

It sounds to me like having kids is really not the heart of the issue. Your husband has not really given it much deep thought. Have you tried telling him that you would consider it and see if he comes up with some other demand? But realistically the worst thing you could do is bring children into a marriage on the rocks. Children will stress the best of relationships.

I have two small kids and two horses. When we got married I made it perfectly clear I wanted both kids and horses would always be part of my life, it was not an option. He wasn't worried about the horses but kids scared him a lot. Now he can not imagine what he would have done with out the children in his life. And, I hope that one day we can enjoys horses as a family.

Some times you have to compromise in a marriage but every one has things that are not an option, there are things that make you what you are and you have every right to not compromise them. That being said some times people change there minds because they were just afraid, like my husbands fear of having children. I wish you the best, I am sure it will all work out in the long run (married or divorced) just make sure you protect your self and your interest.

carol_okc

Sep. 15, 2005, 09:41 AM

Oh boy.. Lost, I do understand! At nearly 62, childless (couldn't, and thankfully didn't want them), and single most of my adult life, I see far too many sides to the issues you're facing.
I assure you there is nothing more crippling than to grow up knowing that you were unwanted. Been there... and learned to be comfortable enough with myself that I didn't attend my late father's funeral. Frankly, I didn't even grieve over his death - it didn't mean much of anything to me, other than that the pain had stopped.
Listen to your head and your heart. Follow YOUR path, not someone else's idea of the path you should follow. It may be lonely, but it's YOURS! And as someone who has walked that walk, the one foundation that has sustained me is the horses. They will sustain you (and they won't show up some day with someone else's lipstick on their collar, saying that they want out).

Irish Ei's

Sep. 15, 2005, 09:46 AM

Get him a Puppy, or let him carry an egg around for 24 hours. Any of the programs/excercises they give to teenagers to familiarize them with the realities of having someone totally, inescapably dependant on you.....
Run that one by you're hub-enabling counselor....

fullmoon fever

Sep. 15, 2005, 09:56 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carol_okc:
I assure you there is nothing more crippling than to grow up knowing that you were unwanted. Been there... and learned to be comfortable enough with myself that I didn't attend my late father's funeral. Frankly, I didn't even grieve over his death - it didn't mean much of anything to me </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm also in that club...although it was my mom that didn't want us. Dad was fine with it, although equally negligent. After 45 years, my mother finally told me she loved me; I just laughed at her and said it was too late. She also only said it because she needed me to drive her to a doctor's appointment. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

From as early as I can remember, my mother would make comments like: "If abortion were legal, I wouldn't have to talk to you." and "YOU kids RUINED my life.". To this day, we have NO idea wtf it was she wanted out of life or what it was we prevented her from doing. (Oh, and she was 5 mos. pregnant when she married my dad. I'm pretty sure she "trapped" him because his family were well-off.)

Anyway, being an unwanted child is not a pretty life. I've got over 90% of it, my sister is still stuck at the emotional age of 3 and will not move on and my other sister is a dependent wreck.

I too will be happy when my mother is dead; the bitching will stop. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Duffy

Sep. 15, 2005, 10:00 AM

All five of us were "accidents". My mother is/was NOT the nurturing kind. She sort of started liking us when we became teenagers. I feel horribly for her as well as my kids. She's missing out on a lot. My kids know she doesn't "like" them, especially when compared to their other grandmother. It's just sad. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

asb_own_me

Sep. 15, 2005, 10:03 AM

Lost, I am so sorry you are going through this difficult time. I have gone through rough times with my husband, and the worst was when he said that he had changed his mind about children. I have never wanted any, and when we met and married he said he didn't either.

We've since gotten past it. I know that somewhere in there he still wants children...I also know that he loves me, and by staying with me, he's chosen me over children. We have friends with kids and he enjoys his time with them, and that's that.

I hate to say it, but from your posts I'm getting the feeling that there are a lot more issues going on with you and your husband. So it may not be so simple to resolve as our situation was.

On a lighter note, I have to say that I have a wonderful husband, who had never been around horses before we met, but now rides and even started showing this year. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif I hope that in the case that you two can't work this out, that you find someone who loves you, respects your decisions AND your very expensive hobby, and is willing to compromise instead of throwing around unreasonable expectations.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"

Sep. 15, 2005, 10:04 AM

I don't know if this counts as a success story...because I'm in my late 40s and never married. I never wanted kids from the get-go - wouldn't even babysit for kids under 3. Love puppies, kittens, foals, you name it...to me, babies are a bunch of protoplasm who can't interact in a very interesting way (and my field of study is animal behavior). I do appreciate that just as I feel this way, there are many more people who think sbabies are terrific and think horses of horses in the way I do babies.

I was also very focused on my work. I went to one of the top grad schools in the world and damn near killed myself getting a PhD. Essentially all the men I met (in grad school, in med school, whatever) assumed that my career would take 2nd place to theirs (by divine right) and that I would also sacrifice whatever was necessary to bear and take care of their children. I am very grateful I didn't succumb and marry one of these guys as I would have been miserable (and he would likely have ended up with a machete in the back of his head).

I don't hate children, quite the contrary: I am a terrific aunt and godmother, I am a speaker for science at schools in the area, I am a fabulous mentor (high school kids on up) plus what I do with kids at the barn. But in my opinion, when you have a kid, that is someone's life. I won't have a dog or cat or horse if I cannot be fully responsible for their care, and after all, I can board my horse. But to have children because it is expected by society or to fulfill someone else's desires is simply wrong, in my opinion.

All by way of saying: listen to your inner self. If you don't want children, you shouldn't have them. I think by presenting you with this ultimatum, your husband is putting you in a situation where he can walk away and blame you by saying, Well, she didn't want children" (which will likely garner him much sympathy when he tells his story, and he can hold himself blameless).

I agree with everyone else that has suggested you find a counselor with whom you are comfortable. You don't need two people with the same agenda not listening to you.

And as far as "divorce is wrong" - yes, you made a vow. But I cannot imagine how making the rest of your life a complete misery is better than deciding you need to divorce this man - if that is, in fact, what you choose to do.

I will also add that I have yet to meet an eligible man who has anywhere near the emotional competence of my horse - of course my sampling population may have been skewed, given my educational history - you wouldn't believe some of the socially incompetent men I have met in the field of medicine and science). But I don't mind doing my horse's laundrey, I don't mind cleaning up after him, he is capable of showing me affection and trust.

Believe me, if I find one, I'd be happy to do what it takes to have a marriage.Obviously I'm not holding my breath.

Good luck - the most important thing is that you be at peace with yourself.

llt

Sep. 15, 2005, 10:16 AM

I guess I am missing the boat here, but doing some simple math, if I took all the money spent on counselors in this thread, I could get myself myself a pretty fancy new four horse and truck, then I could complain about how much fuel costs, and have a damn good reason not to pop out a kid, it's hard to be nurturing when you are standing at the gas pumps all day.

asb_own_me

Sep. 15, 2005, 10:22 AM

I didn't mention this in my post, but would like to underline a point made by many others on this thread. NO ONE should force, coerce, nag, or threaten you in any way to have a child. It is YOUR choice and only your choice. I used to get so irritated when people acted shocked when I told them I never wanted children....if they didn't act shocked they laughed at me and said in a most condescending tone, "Oh, that will change".

Expectations and assumptions are nasty things.

The Pie

Sep. 15, 2005, 10:26 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lost:
I have confronted him a few times....want to know where he is and look at his cell bill. He has been completely up front offering everything but he says he doesn't know why he pulled away...and that he is just numb to everything right now. To your loving supportive wife???? So, suspicions are another woman...wanting out and finding a way to force me out...??? these things he denies. I asked him to move out last week for a separation. He said he didn't want it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

First of all, I'm very sorry. Speaking from experience, just because he SAYS there isn't another women doesn't make it so. Perhaps you should be happy that you DON'T have children, divorcing is that much more complicated with kids. If he's changed, he's changed, you may have lost him already. Sorry for being so blunt, but I speak from a great deal of experience in this area.... all the signs appear to be there from what you've posted.

Heidi

Sep. 15, 2005, 10:46 AM

Firstly, I'm sorry for all that you're going through, lost.

It sounds like your hubby is at that stage in life where he questions, 'now what'? For various reasons he's decided that a child would fill the void of what he missed as a child within his own family. Problem is, his desire to have a child has nothing to do with you, the state of your relationship, and, I fear, should you have a child, will have little to do with the child's well-being. It's really all about him. And if there's anything I know about parenting, it's that you become the low man on the totem pole; your child's needs, expectations, welfare takes precedence. All as it should.

Your husband clearly has issues to work out; it also seems as he's elected to do it mostly alone, with the support of a counsellor who's probably telling him what he wants to hear. I suspect he's withdrawn from you because you can't, won't, nor should you, confirm his irrational decisions.

At the end of the day, he seems to be confirming that notion that all we have in life is oneself. So, protect yourself, take care of yourself to the best of current circumstances; and know that there are some 'failures' which are really victories of self-preservation.

llt

Sep. 15, 2005, 10:47 AM

Hey now - I missed out on that - what kind of trust and respect are you showing him if you want to audit his cell bill and check up on his travels? If my husband asked me to review my phone bill, or started questioning where I was and when, I'd moon him.

The Pie

Sep. 15, 2005, 10:55 AM

uh, the point is, if she's wondering about the possibility of "another woman" chances are there IS "another woman". Him saying otherwise and saying he still wants to be married doesn't mean he's being truthful. I've lived through this, he may just not have the guts/heart to tell you the truth at this point. And as for the kids thing - I LOVE LOVE my girls, just sent both of them off to university, and boy oh boy ... those 21 years went fast, I love my girls but I'm glad they're adults now. Kids are a HUGE commitment and no matter what you think they are WAY more work and cost WAY more money than you could possibly anticipate.

EqTrainer

Sep. 15, 2005, 11:04 AM

People do change. People do decide that although they initially did not want children, now they do.

A marriage contract does not state that things will never change. It's unrealistic to think that people will not change. We hear that they don't but they do. It really could be as simple as he has decided he wants children.

What he does *now* is what is important. He and the OP may indeed have to divorce. Perhaps things can be worked out. But to question or doubt that he has the right to change his mind... err... no. Nope. He does.

mrs.smith

Sep. 15, 2005, 11:18 AM

Wow. Lost, I just can't imagine what you're going through. It really sounds like he had his own agenda all along, and I am so sorry that you've been used. I myself could never be anyone's sugar mama, nor do I want a sugar daddy. I want a partner I can love and respect.

So, anyway, here's my story. I've always disliked children. I had my horses, and that was enought for me. I was honest with my husband about it from day one. He married me anyway. If he ever changed his mind, he kept it to himself. I'm finally making decent money, bought a decent car and the horse of my dreams. Only to find out at age 38 I'm pregnant. I had about a 1% chance of getting pregnant, but here I am.

I'll tell you the truth. While my dh was overjoyed and running around telling all his friends (no, he didn't sabotage me, I was on the pill http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif), I spent the first trimester a very bitter woman. I was sick and hated it. I am high risk and had to stop riding. I can find no one to help me with my horse. Parents are too old or too far away to help with child care. I just about slapped anyone who brought up the baby.

But, I decided that the baby didn't ask to be born either, so I'm sucking it up and resolved to do the best I can. They only way I can do this is that my dh is there for me 110%. He said flat out not to sell the horse. He will change diapers and feed the baby while I ride. I know it's not going to be easy, but at least my dh is there for me. God help us both.

Don't have a baby just to complete someone's picture of what life "should" look like. I'd never let a man dicate to me how my life should go, and it doesn't sound like the OP will either. I hope this helps, even a little bit.

Edited to add: the idea of motherhood is growing on me. I caught myself singing to the baby in my belly this morning, and I was looking at pony ads on my lunch break. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Timex

Sep. 15, 2005, 11:57 AM

sure, he has the right to change his mind, but she has the right to expect a compromise. in the OP, she said that there was the option of adoption, but he refused, saying he only wants a biological child. so, it's not like she's saying 'no kids no way', he's saying 'iwant what i want, forget about what you want and any compromise between the 2'. which is childish and unreasonable. to dismiss the option of adoption out of hand without even considering it? nope, he's being a creep.

nhwr

Sep. 15, 2005, 12:19 PM

I haven't read this whole thread so excuse me if I am being redundant. It sounds like a really tough situation and I am sorry you are struggling with it. First, if your husband is dealing with traumatic childhood issues, it may take him quite awhile to work these things out. Having small children is really therapeutic in some ways in that you can be the kind of parent to your child that you wanted to have, you can help show them a world that you never saw. BUT it is grossly unfair to your children to have children for this reason. If your husband wants to be a dad, he has to show he has what it takes, make a commitment to it. That means he has to be the provider, it has been that way since the dawn of time. This is not to say women can't participate or even be the total bread winner. But in your situation, he says he wants to be a dad so it is up to him to prove it.

Regarding the therapist who says child care or nanny, run! don't walk away from them. I am really against this. If you want to be a parent, be a parent. Don't pay someone else to do it.

I respect your privacy and don't want details but it sounds like there is a lot more going on here. It is not fair to bring children into an unsettled situation, especially if you are reluctant. DON'T DO IT http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

nhwr

Sep. 15, 2005, 12:29 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I AM hardcore about marriage and vows. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just want to point out the according to the OP, the vows were taken with an understanding of the issue of children. This is part of the commitment that lead to the vow. The OP's husband certainly has a right to change how he feels about that. What he doesn't have a right to do is insist that she change her position. His feelings changed, it is his responsibility to their marriage do deal with his feelings in a way that isn't destructive to their marrriage. He isn't doing that.

The Pie

Sep. 15, 2005, 12:37 PM

why would you want to stay with someone who doesn't want the same thing you want? Kids are pretty significant, its not like having a gold fish. She's young, she may be happier in the long run without him, she may end up in the long run with someone who can't live without her, who supports every aspect of her riding. Who will get up at 5 am to watch her show, stand there in the pouring rain holding your horse for you while you check your course, jump up and down with glee when you win a 2$ ribbon that cost the two of you $1000's in lessons, board, feed..... there ARE guys out there like that. My second hubby is one of them. I'm one of the lucky ones.

philosoraptor

Sep. 15, 2005, 12:37 PM

Get a new therapist, one who both of you feel comfortable and happy with.

I'd be really careful right now. I hate to say it but some people will resort to dirty means once they decide they want kids and their spouse "owes it" to them. He could rationalize it as "mistake", as an "effort to keep you together", or as "something you'd grow to love once you had one". Anyway, all I'm saying is count your Pills and check your condoms for pin holes. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Why he's doing it? I think he's threatend by you having a huge passion for horses and your own hobbies that he doesn't share or is a part of. He wants you home, plain and simple. A child is the best way to put an indepentent woman "in her place" so to speak.

Then he'll want you to give up on your other goals. Your career dreams will be forgotten. Pretty soon you'll exist only to change this man's offspring's diapers and to cook the man dinner.

As far as guilt for divorce -- HE is the one who should feel guilty. Kids are a huge deal. How could he just wake up one day, shortly after being married, and just decide "I MUST have kids now". Either he's been totally dishonest with you -or- he's trying to control you (or a little of both).

Whatever you do, don't give in to see if it'll make things better. Then you're stuck with a kid you didn't desperately want in the first place (and this can screw up a kid whether he/she is told directly they weren't wanted or not).

I think the sucess story isn't necessarily making compromises to make this man happy enough to save the marriage... it's deciding what YOU need, want, deserve to be a self-respecting, independent woman and not feeling ashamed for maybe choosing your own happiness over this not-so-great man's.

Demi

Sep. 15, 2005, 12:39 PM

Not much to add that hasn't already been said, but best of luck to you. I hope you can move on and get back to being happy with your situation, whatever route that may involve taking.

I also wanted to say that I'm so very proud of COTH and horsewomen in general after reading these posts (as well as some on relocatedTXjumpr's 'I think, I'm done for a while' thread.) I don't know what it is about us, but horsewomen are so inspirationally brave, strong and independent. I wish all women had great advice from people like you, and the confidence and ability to stand up for themselves that so many of you posses. Congratulations to all of you on being such amazing women. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sadsmile.gif

Coreene

Sep. 15, 2005, 01:00 PM

You had a deal. He wants to change the terms of the deal purely for his benefit. Bad business practice. I don't do business with people like that.

And when it's in my real life? Ditto.

Pocket Pony

Sep. 15, 2005, 01:16 PM

pacificsolo, in my younger years, I did feel like you do. I thought divorce was too easy and many people took the easy way out. I thought that *I* would take it seriously and *I* would make sure the my marriage worked out...until my ex and I had problems and he refused to see a therapist because he thought he could fix all his own problems. I think he also saw having kids as completing some kind of picture that would "fix" his unhappy childhood. I went to see a therapist on my own. And he finally agreed to go see one with me (so I had two, he had one). But it was too late. And he wasn't really interested in making any changes and participating as a partner. He wanted a mother who would clean up after him, take care of paying the bills, run the household, and pay attention to him when he demanded it.

Anyways, I don't have to justify my divorce to you.

But your comment here:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Duffy, I am certainly not saying that divorce cannot ever happen ....certainly there are times when it is going to happen....and her husband may well choose to leave her...but she will heal quicker if she knows she did all she could to save it </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

really struck me. It implies that HE is the only one allowed to make the decision in their relationship. Why couldn't she "may well choose" to leave him? Why would it be ok for him to make that decision but it isn't ok for the OP to make that decision?

Giddy-up

Sep. 15, 2005, 01:21 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carolprudm:
Sharing the same interests isn't the key, respect honesty and love are. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is huge. I am not even married or close to it, but that is an excellent reminder. Everybody thinks I want a guy who is into horses, but I don't care--I just want somebody who is understanding & supportive of them. Just as I would be of their hobby/interests.

lost--best of luck to you. I am sorry, this sucks. I am glad you know what you want though & don't give in to something you don't. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

carol_okc

Sep. 15, 2005, 01:25 PM

I can't stomach the thought of anyone turning themself into a Stepford Wife (or whatever male equivalent you want to interject) for the sake of making a marriage 'work'. That isn't working, that's going away without being gone.

Is it better to do the no-divorce-ever routine, when it means separate bedrooms, separate lives, separate everythings but under the same roof? My grandparents went that route.. both sets... My mother tried to leave my father, but her training was too entrenched. She broke under the stress and went back 'home'. Ultimately, it killed her (30+ years ago).

I see no merit in subjecting anyone to that.

Kim

Sep. 15, 2005, 01:26 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I am not even married or close to it, but that is an excellent reminder. Everybody thinks I want a guy who is into horses, but I don't care--I just want somebody who is understanding & supportive of them. Just as I would be of their hobby/interests. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said!! Now, if I could only find one... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

LostFarmer

Sep. 15, 2005, 02:08 PM

I have had an intersting read here. I feel for Lost, it sucks when things suddenly change as you know them. On the other hand, a good friend of mine was happily married when he was paralized in a car accident. His wife left with the kids because he had changed and wasn't the same man she married. NO KIDDING!

This man didn't think he wanted kids and now does. How many women do the same thing?

My wife always wanted to be Super MOM. That was what she wanted. She changed majors from chemical engineering to math with a teaching option to make that happen. She wanted 5 to 7 kids, then life kicked her in the overies. We are lucky to have the kids we have but for medical reasons no more are possible. Because of her support for my opening a new buisness she is now working outside the home instead of a stay at home mom.

Our lives are not like we thought when we got married. The real world changed us and our minds about what was important.

I am sure some of you are asking the questions why is he telling us this crap. Because it is about US working out OUR changes and OUR problems. Divorce is rarely a good option. Lost and Mr. Lost were at one time at least in love what changed and now where do you go?

LostFarmer

Sep. 15, 2005, 02:10 PM

One more idea. Has Mr. Lost concidered volenteering with Boy Scouts, YMCA, or Big Brothers? That may feed his need for children and benifit the youth at the same time.

Ridgetop Ghost

Sep. 15, 2005, 02:16 PM

I'd watch letting him get involved with Boy Scouts, etc. As Anne FS said earlier, perhaps his "problem" involves another man, not another woman. I have tons of guy friends, and you would be amazed how many of them have similar "problems" in life--all because they are hiding the fact they are gay. I've also dated a few guys with very strange behavior--in hindsight, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out they are gay (ewwww--yuck, yuck--why do they have to date WOMEN--OK, I know the answer to that one, but ewwww). Perhaps this explains Mr. Lost--don't get mad, but it is an idea.

Perfect Pony

Sep. 15, 2005, 02:26 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ridgetop Ghost:
I'd watch letting him get involved with Boy Scouts, etc. As Anne FS said earlier, perhaps his "problem" involves another man, not another woman. I have tons of guy friends, and you would be amazed how many of them have similar "problems" in life--all because they are hiding the fact they are gay. I've also dated a few guys with very strange behavior--in hindsight, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out they are gay (ewwww--yuck, yuck--why do they have to date WOMEN--OK, I know the answer to that one, but ewwww). Perhaps this explains Mr. Lost--don't get mad, but it is an idea. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

First we have someone saying he should be medicated, now he's gay!! LOL http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Maybe the guy just wants kids??!! Hey, look around, MOST people want kids!

As bizzare as it seems to me that anyone could possibly want children, I can admit I'm definitely in the minority...

Perfect Pony

Sep. 15, 2005, 02:43 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by pacificsolo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Anyways, I don't have to justify my divorce to you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never asked you to.

It's not a matter of feelings. Obviously if people go into a marriage with baggage, it's gonna carry into the marriage. But the glib attitude on this BB regarding divorce is sickening. It's thrown out as just a quick fix.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, now you are starting to offend me...

Sickening attitudes? Maybe some of us see marriage as it is, as a contract? We're not all religious on here, or think that once you go through the motion of marriage it's somehow some bond ordained by God, or some pledge over all others that means you have to put up with shit that one normally wouldn't put up with.

I don't think divorce is great, but I don't think that before people shelfishly have children it's some kind of tragedy either.

My attitude come from the fact that if I were in the OPs shoes, I'd get the hell out before I brought some poor child into the world becuase some guy just up and changed his mind on me. I don't think that attitude is sickening at all. Maybe we'd have a lot less screwed up kids/people in the world if people did that instead of trying to save their marriages...

Coreene

Sep. 15, 2005, 03:07 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by pacificsolo:
Someone mentioned something about the strength on this BB. If women were so strong on this BB, why do so many have such broken lives? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif Is it possible that many of us make poor decisions that lead us to be in the situations we often bring to the OC forum? The best advice someone ever gave me was be strong enough to say "no" to the wrong man. We make bad decisions sometimes, and then try to corrrect them by making other bad decisions. I am NOT saying that somehow we deserve our hurts and sorrows. I'm not even suggesting that the OP did anything other than everything right with marrying this man.

You would think with divorce rates as they are, people would take the decision to marry much more seriously...and maybe make the decision to not get divorced everytime things get tough http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

I am NOT judging individuals on this BB who may be divorced...that isn't my "job". But would any of you who have endured that hell ever recemmned it to a friend? I mean, would you say "here's something you've GOT to experience before you die!"? NO. So, I guess I'm not here to chastise anyone's life...I'm just hoping someone will reconsider how they think/feel about marriage. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The divorce rate is 50%+. BB or not.

We get one round in life. Why would you be miserable with someone when you can be happy either solo or with someone else? After all, having your headstone say "HAD A SHITTY LIFE BUT STAYED WITH THE JERK UNTIL THE END" is not going to win you any points.

caffeinated

Sep. 15, 2005, 03:11 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Someone mentioned something about the strength on this BB. If women were so strong on this BB, why do so many have such broken lives? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry, but what makes you say so many here have "broken" lives? Because they're divorced or went through pain or didn't choose the path you would?

I think it's really presumptuous to sit there and say people who have gotten divorces are "broken"- you don't know them. Perhaps they are actually more whole than they've ever been- I know I was when I broke things off with the guy I was "supposed" to marry.

You're coming across like religious people who think atheists' lives are empty and devoid of meaning- it's the only thing I can compare it to. YES, you think divorce is wrong and that that's a promise that should be kept- that's great for you. But it doesn't mean that people who make a different choice are "broken" or miserable or shattered.

As for the OP, I feel for you. That's a big part of the agreement to change on his part. And it bothers me that you have to get "at the root of not wanting kids" as if not wanting children was some kind of psychosis.

Dow Jones

Sep. 15, 2005, 03:12 PM

"Judge not lest ye be judged."

I think it's very easy to say "I'd never do XYZ" but quite a different thing to be in that situation.

nhwr

Sep. 15, 2005, 04:20 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I am concerned with the people who are suggesting that somehow life is about making yourself happy and feeling good. I'm not saying those are bad things, but at the expense of what? Is the emotional turmoil from a divorce somehow better than the turmoil of disagreement? Are people's hearts truly THAT hardened? How sad. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But isn't that exactly what Mr. Lost is doing here? He woke up and said "You must have my children". That is what the problem here is.

Hey, I don't really believe in divorce. And if you read my post you'd see that I didn't suggest it as a solution, though I strongly urge Lost not to have kids 1) if she doesn't want them and 2) until they figure out what is really eating Mr. Lost.

If Mr. Lost didn't accurately represent himself and his feelings going into the marriage, he owes lost a big apology, not an ultimatum. So life doesn't turn out the way you expect... That isn't liscense to renegotiate the plans they made together. Mr. Lost may just have to live with the disappointment of not having children. That isn't glib, it called taking responsibility for your behavior. And it is a much better option than bringing a child into a muddled relationship.

Sabina

Sep. 15, 2005, 04:22 PM

I think it's almost outrageous to expect a woman who does not want children, and has clearly stated that she does not want children, to have children to make some wishy- washy excuse of a man "happy."

Not to mention that 50% divorce rate includes families with children. Do you really want to be a single mother, OP?

Children are an 18 year commitment, folks. And you can't tell your spouse to sell them and move to a smaller house if you suddenly decide you've made a mistake and you don't want them after all.

As to happiness vs. being in a committed relationship....this is the 20-ought-5's. "Miserable but committed, children the sole purpose of the union" was the duty theme of the last century and is now only held onto by certain religious sects as a rationalization for continuing to make others feel guilty. Mankind was really not any better for it.

Time and time again I hear people with children commit the casual verbal abuse of the child by saying such things to me as "they're driving me crazy, do you want to take them home with you? I wish I had never had them." It makes my skin crawl. You think the kids don't hear you? You think the kids don't comprehend when the father gets bored and loses interest and leaves the family?

My advice...get your own advisor.

And I'm in a very, very long term relationship, thank you very much, no kids, yes horses and pets.

mairzeadoats

Sep. 15, 2005, 04:31 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">6 months ago, some secrets from his life started to unravel..and basically these very negative things are the result of his horrible horrible childhood. So, even though my trust and self esteem were damaged, I supported him through this time with lots of counselling and an emotional roller coaster ride.

Through the counselling, he is resolving childhood issues, and has learned some things about himself..one being that he does want to be a father. What I can't understand is how quickly he "discovered" this.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think its possible , or at least likely, to heal from a seriously horrible childhood in 6 months of counseling. He sounds very emotionally unstable right now and I would question his sudden realization that he really does want children after all.

Parents need to want children because they love being around them, caring for them and teaching them, in the same way we love being around our critters. And they need to be in a place of emotional maturity and stability in order to do a decent job raising them. Any other reasons -- to fulfill our own emotional needs, to take care of us when we get older, etc. -- is selfish and using them.

Maybe he should temporarily fill his need to have children by volunteering someplace, such as big brother. Just for practice...see how long that lasts.

llt

Sep. 15, 2005, 04:39 PM

This poor guy had something horrible happen to him in his childhood, and HER self esteem and trust are shattered? Come on, give the guy a break, hokey counselor or not, stop making him seem like an ogre. Put down your white zinfandel, put out your cigarettes, the lilith fair of bashing him should stop.

Alagirl

Sep. 15, 2005, 04:42 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">BUT, the way people are advocating for her to divorce him disturbs me... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not many are advocating it, just cautioning here to be prepared to not be left out high and dry...
(The story about the SO engaging all top ten divorce lawers in town for a paid chat to keep the wife from getting to them - scary to say the least!)

The point is that OP's SO has changed the contract on her, is not giving in and pretty much all agree that there is more rotten in the state of Danmark then just the desire for kids - and that she did not feel comfortable with the therapist...

BUT sometimes an end in horror is better than horror without end...one has to cut one's losses before they get too big to handle, and move on.

Hopeful Hunter

Sep. 15, 2005, 04:57 PM

ya know, I'm not terrifically "fond" of children, but that's not the major reason why I've never wanted to have them.

I've never wanted to have children because I believe that if you have children, that is the most important job in your life for the rest of it. Period.

Doesn't matter if you're male or female, those kids OUGHT to be your number one priority. Now, that doesn't mean they have to "take over" your life, but they simple DO depend on you for, well, their life, and you need to respect that IMO. I don't give a a rat's tongue whether mom or dad or mom and mom or dad and dad share or don't share parenting, as long as they AGREE about it and accept that one of them needs to be the primary caregiver - even if that swaps off every few years.

My parents had me "by accident" when my mom was quite young. She did a great job, but I've always felt as though so much of her life was lost because of what in reality is a mistake. My father certainly wasn't prepared to have a kid, and shouldn't have. Their marriage was a disaster from the start, and only ended years after they split because dear old dad wanted to marry someone else (to whom he's still married, maybe now even with some happiness, I hope). But the bottom line is that even though my mother certainly did and does love me, I have some scars and baggage from not REALLY being planned and wanted.

Being a parent is the most important job on earth. Period. NO ONE, imo, should be judged as anything less than brave for saying they may not be up for it.

As to the sanctity of marriage....I do believe in that, but I also believe that keeping a vow for the sake of endurance is insane. Certainly, couples ought to consider long and hard before divorcing, and should try counseling and spiritual work and anything else but in the end, sometimes relationships have a natural life cycle that doesn't include "forever." That's not wrong, it just is.

And for the record, I was the one who "wanted" my divorce. I NEVER regretted it, I only regretted not having seen that it would have been best sooner. And this is from someone who STILL exchanges holiday cards with my ex and ex-in-laws nearly 20 years later....

lost

Sep. 15, 2005, 05:07 PM

Perhaps I should change the title of the thread to "Losing your marriage over not wanting children, your input please."

I really appreciate everyone taking a piece of their time and giving me input and sharing some of your lives. Some of you seem to have undergone very similar misery and pain. It helps to know there is a life on the other side. I feel that at least I have not been rash...and, if anything, a little too naive.

I want to respond to so many things that were written...will see how many I can cover right now.

Six months ago I discovered some "nonmarital" things he was doing which - apparently - was a form of self medication that had developed during his childhood. So, even though I was hurt, they had nothing to do with me. I stayed with him to help him work through the issues, but our marriage was on the back burner so that he could deal with the childhood and work his way forward.

I don't snoop and am very trusting. He offered to share everything including his cell phone bills and where he was based on the discovery 6 months ago to help me rebuild my trust.

I waited to get married for the first time until was in my 30s. I was not "love stricken." We had a long engagement and I felt I knew him, his motives and what drove him. We were very compatible on a friendship level as well as husband and wife.

About a year before I met him, I had finally been able to afford to get back into horses seriously - a wait that had been 13 years in the making due to financial difficulties and schooling for many years. He knew HOW much it means to me and the fact that I have scraped by being creative and working extra jobs while in school so that I could hang on to my first horse my parents gave me many many years ago....it was not a passing phase.

We had long NONPRESSURED talks about kids while first dating. You know, when you are lighthearted about just learning about each other. I asked him "why" he wanted kids. What he would love about having a family..etc. He came to his own conclusion he did not want to have kids. But we discussed it often - I would bring it up - to check in.

I take marriage vows very very seriously. My mom stayed in the marriage with my dad until we were out of the house. They were mismatched and she basically was a martyr for the better part of her adult life. She lost so many years in that hell. Still, I am in a marriage to make it work. I have tried to keep communication lines open with dialog inducing questions. And opening with info that shows I am willing to work on this as a "team" which is what I believe marriage is. But he is completely single about this. He is certain what he wants and narrows down the criteria each time we talk. I swear, in a few weeks, he might say "I want my wife to be a 36-24-36 with long blonde hair and be a gourmet cook, certified in CPR and ready to go to PTA meetings." That is how compromising I feel he is being in this situation.

I threw out the separation line to him with the suggestion he go live for a while in a friend's guest house. Friend's wife is a stay at home mom with 3 kids. Also, they actually now own the puppy we adopted - a puppy he wanted - but somehow I had to take off work to care for her the first few weeks...and his work schedule changed little to accomodate her. Finally I said that it wasnt' fair to her because when I was working, she was in the kennel 14-18 hours per day. I needed to work, because I make the majority of the income.

Anyway, I have suggested big brother/sister, coaching, visiting his family..etc. He says no to it all.

So, I completely agree with all of you who say that his lines sound like BULL. They do to me too. And the actions he has taken are completely NOT in line with how he has acted in the past.

I just don't know if I work through it with another counsellor with the hope of somehow keeping the marriage together...or if I cut loose of this emotional roller coaster and try to heal. It has been going on for about 6 months now.

I told him I was afraid I was in love with the person I thought he was, not the person he truly was discovering that he is. He said that is his biggest fear too. He just doesn't know who he is.

There are so many other things that would make the story more complete..but are really not necessary for this board. I have been so thankful that the people here would take time to support me. It helps as I sit in tears each nite wonder where I will be in 6 days, months and years. I have always seen horsey women as a unique breed. We are very independent and don't stay in relationships due to "need" but b/c it is worth staying in. So, please keep giving stories, anecdotes, advice..whatever. It is refreshing to get people who don't wholeheartedly agree with each other. To see each present their viewpoint helps educate others. I am thankful for every post.

nhwr

Sep. 15, 2005, 05:10 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">This poor guy had something horrible happen to him in his childhood, and HER self esteem and trust are shattered? Come on, give the guy a break, hokey counselor or not, stop making him seem like an ogre. Put down your white zinfandel, put out your cigarettes, the lilith fair of bashing him should stop. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not bashing the "poor" guy. But unless he had repressed memory syndrome (which I don't really think exists), he made sham of a serious committment. He represented himself falsely. That certainly isn't lost's fault. He is in the middle of some irrational process. There is no way he should consider being a father til he shows he is ready. That means being honest with himself and lost, getting a real job and making long term plans to be a provider, not a victim.

PiedPiper

Sep. 15, 2005, 05:27 PM

The story about the SO engaging all top ten divorce lawers in town for a paid chat to keep the wife from getting to them - scary to say the least!)

Isn't this from Soprano's?

mairzeadoats

Sep. 15, 2005, 05:29 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">But unless he had repressed memory syndrome (which I don't really think exists), </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

For the record, I believe from personal experience it does exist. When I was 14, I came home from school one Friday afternoon and found myself locked out in the street. My parents started going away for weekends and leaving me locked out of the house, no note, no shelter, no food, no money. And they did it at least a half dozen times, the last time in freezing rain in November.

Once they stopped (after a neighbor saw me breaking in and called the police), I moved on. I just didn't think about it. I couldn't afford to.

In my 20s, I started losing my keys and leaving myself locked out...of my apartment, my car, etc.

In my 30s, during a conversation with co-workers, something...who knows what...triggered the memory. I laughed about it, but they looked shocked and told me it was a terrible, terrible thing.

It wasn't until I was home alone that night I allowed myself the 'luxury' of totally remembering it...and re-experienced the deep, deep fear I felt that first time, when I sat in my front yard until dark waiting for someone to come home. And finally realising nobody was coming home.

I still have no memory of large parts of my childhood...years and years missing. And that's after some counseling and therapy.

Which is why I don't buy that after 6 months of counseling he's suddenly realized he must have biological children. He may think that's what he wants, but it could all change in a week. If his childhood was truly horrible, it'll be a lifetime of healing.

mzpeepers

Sep. 15, 2005, 05:31 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I think it's almost outrageous to expect a woman who does not want children, and has clearly stated that she does not want children, to have children to make some wishy- washy excuse of a man "happy."

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Especially when the wishy-washy excuse of a man has already stated that yes he wants kids but no he won't be the primary caretaker...Excuse you me???

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Children are an 18 year commitment, folks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not really http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, more like a lifetime one both emotionally and, during the college years, financially.

As far as divorce being hurtful, a broken promise and so forth...we need to be happy in order to make others happy, especially when kids are involved. Being miserable and denying one's own right to happiness because of some "promise" we supposedly have to keep at all costs is deterramental to one's health.

3Ponies

Sep. 15, 2005, 05:34 PM

I haven't read this WHOLE thread, but I've read enough to have an opinion...

It makes NO sense to have a child simply as a mechanism to save a marriage.

If hubby doesn't "know who he is" or "who he is becoming" it makes NO sense for him to become a father at this point in time.

Certainly, it seems that your going to work, and your apparent success has somehow triggered in your husband feelings of inadequacy and a desire to regain control over things...confidence issues that you perhaps didn't notice before or chose to overlook that have now come bubbling to the surface. You should consider to what extent you are responsible for changing the dynamic in your marriage, and should closely examine how your actions (however justified) have led to a change in your relationship over a relatively short period.

I don't see where you have mentioned these, but normally others (friends, relatives, his coworkers, and now your coworkers) share in the dynamic--how have others affected (positively or negatively) the way you and your husband percieve and interact with each other?

A child deserves a better reason than making someone feel adequate or in control for its existance. And there is more to parenting than simply deciding who will be the "primary caretaker." That is a pretty cold approach to taking on the closest of human relationships.

Any ideas either of you have about having a child need to be tabled for the time being while you mutually evaluate and work on your relationship with each other, and resolve your conflicts.

eventer79

Sep. 15, 2005, 05:36 PM

I am going through something similar now!! I would love to have someone who is going threw this to chat to. if you wana blow off steam email me livehappy79@aol.com

tosca4711

Sep. 15, 2005, 05:46 PM

I am the child of a bad marriage, and believe me, my parents didn't do me any favor by staying together for 25 years. They were both miserable, but stayed married because that was the way they were brought up. All I remember from my childhood at home was fighting, and waiting for the other shoe to drop. My life was miserable, and tense. The day my parents separated was the best day of my life. Divorce is sometimes the best thing for everybody.

By the way, my mother never wanted me, and I always knew it. Don't have a child unless you really want one.

Good luck to you, whatever your decision.

Tosca

ASB Stars

Sep. 15, 2005, 06:21 PM

I have a VERY dear friend whose husband went to see a shrink, by himself, for several months, and, after giving his loving wife the "my psychologist has CRIED for me !" speech, filed for divorce, without telling her.

He, too, has suffered a horrible childhood. She has supported his hopes and dreams in a real way; financially, as well as emotionally, and hell, every other way, as well.

YOU CANNOT TAKE SOMEONES LESSONS FROM THEM !

Sometimes, you just have to turn them loose, and go on your way.

I feel deeply for you, Lost, in this abyss of emotion, and pain.

However, some people are more passive-aggressive than others, and your husband would appear to fall into that category of being.

Some people are not capable of being happy. You cannot make them happy- because it is not within THEM....

mrsbwayne

Sep. 15, 2005, 06:32 PM

Personally, if you can do it, I'd advise you to get out now.

I know someone who is in a similar situation. Her husband has all kinds of childhood issues (who doesn't, that's what I always wonder!) and she didn't know it until after they were married. She tried to stick it out and it's not better. But now they have stuff, and at this point, she said she'd rather not lose half her stuff, since she makes most of the money, the house is hers, but she'd have to split it with him. She makes the most of it and does her own thing, but I'm sure she wishes she had gotten out when it all started. It just seemed to keep going and going and going. She kept thinking, okay, I can deal with this. Then somethign else would pop up. Ugh.

I can't belive the shrink said to to have a kid and get a nanny...??? Huh?? What would be the point? And I love that he wants to have a kid, but you have to do all the pregnancy, having it, he wants you to stay home. Sounds like he should get a pet instead.
SW

Perfect Pony

Sep. 15, 2005, 06:42 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mrsbwayne:
Personally, if you can do it, I'd advise you to get out now.

I know someone who is in a similar situation. Her husband has all kinds of childhood issues (who doesn't, that's what I always wonder!) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

NO KIDDING!

My current fiance has a textbook perfect childhood, and I had the worst possible childhood a person could have, literally. This is ON PAPER. But you know what? He has a ton of "issues" too. I think being raised by a married couple you end up with some issues.

Hell, my ex-fiance (that I was smart enough not to marry back in my early 20s) literally lived an Ozzy and Harriet life. His parents were perfect, in love, beautiful, upper middle class, with 3 perfect sons that went on to be upper middle class professionals. My fiance had tons of issues that I wasn't willing to deal with - making me into his mother!!!! haha!

IMOP all you can do is live for today. Sounds like you had some great times, cool! But if life is taking a turn, well then ride the wave.

Like I said, I am getting married next month and my situation sounds so much like yours! But the only way I could finally allow myself to marry at age 35 is to go into it realizing that we are 2 individuals, and I still, even in marriage, cannot control him or base my entire future happiness on who is is today.

Sep. 15, 2005, 07:08 PM

A mom that didn't want kids weighing in. I apologize, I didn't get through all 7 pages of posts.

I hate divorce!!! People that are unhappy end up with this thought in the back of their heads, "well if it doesn't work out..." and what happens is that neither party gives 100% to the marriage. Which is where the best marriages are. Not at the 50/50 level. It is when both are giving 100% that you stop looking at who gave what and how much and just grow together, taking care of one another.

Good marriage has compromise. But not at the expense of the other person. The compromises are freely given, not asked for. What I mean is that I will see that my husband needs something and give it freely to him. I am not worried about repayment. And my (non-horsey) husband of 19 years does the same.

Don't have a child just to save a marriage. Especially if he is demanding it. If he is not fufilled with out a child, chance are that there are bigger emotional holes than a child or anyother created thing can fill.

However, I would invite you to consider the idea that you may change one day. I did NOT want any children when I was in college, even after I was married at first. Some how, the overwhelming trust and love that I had for him inspired a rather passionate moment where he said "Stop or you'll get pregnant" and I said I didn't care. 9 months later my son was born 4 days before the first wedding anniversary.

In the beginning, I was a horrible mother. But my husband, was an excellent father and husband. He would get home from work and I would go to the barn. When I got home, the baby was fed and in bed. My hubby was patient while I grew up and came to grips with myself. He never threatened to leave and did his best to support me. My 19 yo son left for college this fall, and I do so miss him. We have a really good relationship.

Try to salvage the marriage. Part of depression involves a lack of serotonin. If he just dealt with some serious past-life issues, he may have depleted his serotonin reserves and need some help with that. Find a great marriage counselor. Not the ones that are divorced, look for someone with a track record of knowing what it takes to make it work. Eventually, he will either come back tothe marriage emotionally or he won't. Then you can always say: I gave it my very best. I wasn't the failure here.

Having children will not fill emotional holes. In fact, I find it one of the most challenging things to do is raise children, because they sense your emotional holes and can take advantage of them. (gotta love the 13 yo's they "know"everything...and yet nothing at all)

Best of Luck and many hugs to you. I am available by PM if you want to talk. I know what I am saying isn't the general tone here, but I hope that you will consider my experiences.

Irish Ei's

Sep. 15, 2005, 07:14 PM

Jingles!!!!

aregard

Sep. 15, 2005, 08:19 PM

Well, I didn't wade through all 7 pages, either. Just the first two and the last two.

Here's my perspective.

When I was young and foolish, I got married to a man who already had children. When I finished college, he really wanted another one. I'd never cared for the notion myself, thinking I had much bigger fish to fry on this planet than making babies, and I wasn't a very maternal person, either.

But he wanted one, pretty bad. So, I thought about it for a long time until I was secure in the knowledge that when I had a child, I would be prepared for that child, and that child would be _mine_ 100% and I would be committed to that child. Which was probably my subconcious telling me something about the bozo I was married to, because I no sooner got pregnant than he left me to live with his mistress.

Lucky thing I'd done such a strong series of exercises to cement my mental fortitude for the arrival of the child, no? Cause I sure wasn't going to let that WEASEL have custody. You wouldn't believe how messed up his other kids ended up.

So, I had the child, and kept the child, and later on had a second child (with my current DH, who I didn't marry for 15 years because I ceased believing in the institution, so I absolutely don't give a good g@d d@mn about how 'glib' people are about divorce: marriage is a crock. All that matters is commitment and commitment is demonstrated daily [or not] and has zip to do with words that flow out of the mouths of con artists.)

And, long and short of it is, I made a rather good parent, my kids are the joy of my life, it's something of a shame that my DH and I didn't have more, because we were good at it.

BTW, DH stayed home with the second child for YEARS as primary care giver.

So, my advice is: don't worry about marriage versus divorce. Examine commitment. What are you committed to? What is he committed to? What are the _actions_ that evidence commitment, and ignore the words. Who is flaking on whom, and do you trust a 6 month turn around not to turn around AGAIN after another 6 months?

Don't have a child unless you, yourself, COMPLETELY want one whom you would never give up to anybody. Because that may be the situation you find yourself in.

Even if he were golden, hubs can be taken out by a truck on the freeway as easily as anybody else, and how would you feel if you had a kid 'for him' and him wasn't around anymore?

You should only have a kid for you. And only you know if you are interested enough to do it.

Good luck, lost.

blueboo

Sep. 15, 2005, 10:53 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by pacificsolo:
I'm only gonna say this once. You took a VOW I don't know how else to say divorce is wrong. You wanna know why so many people are broken and sad these days? People cannot count on ANYTHING to be for real. It's so easy to say "I'm not happy so I'll just end it". When has marriage EVER supposed to be self-centered?

I feel for you, really. I would be really mad if my husband flipped the script all of a sudden. HOWEVER, it is up to us to work thru it.
<sic>
Being a strong woman isn't to be equated with picking up your toys and running away if you don't like how the game is being played. Being a strong woman is learnign how to deal with change.
I do not know what your counselor is like. HOWEVER, just because she may say something you don't like doesn't mean she is wrong...are you seriously looking to have someone help you and your husband or are you wanting to be told what you think is right? PLEASE do not go into counseling with the idea that you will get patted on the back for your "side".

Marriage counseling is not often successful without both partners present. If you need a few personal sessions, ask....but allow the counselor the ability to work with you together. You're working on a sum greater than the whole. Marriage is hard. But don't throw it away because you aren't being served. A healthy marriage desires to see each other thrive. You CAN come to that. I promise you if you really want it to work, it can.

<sic> And if they tell you what you don't wanna hear, suck it up and decide that maybe YOU are the one who needs to change! Nobody likes to be wrong...trust me...I hate it myself. But if I want to be a happy and growing individual I have to accept that I am human and can certainly be wrong!

I have more empathy than you can imagine for what you are dealing with. But I completely disagree with any contemplation of divorce. You made a vow...a promise. Ask yourself what that means to you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry, and I haven't read all of this thread yet, but I simply have to take issue with this Pacificsolo. First, yes, she took a vow - but so did HE. Why should HE get to suddenly change the rules - and not about what color to paint the bedroom for God's sake, or what kind of car to buy, or even what state to live in - yes, I agree, these are all things worthy of compromise. But to go from agreeing to not have a child to insisting on having a child? AND insisting on having a child and not being willing to co-parent it? This is NOT something to compromise on. I'm sorry. I don't have kids, don't want kids, never wanted kids, and thank God can no longer have kids, but having or not having a child is NOT the place to 'compromise'.

Being a strong woman and being able to "learn to deal with change" comes under the heading of 'Gee, I didn't plan on getting pregnant right now, but I wanted kids sometime, so I'll deal with the life changes now rather than later.' It DOES NOT mean I didn't yesterday, don't now and won't tomorrow want children - but a two-bit counselor told me I was wrong to feel that way, so I guess I'd better just suck it up, have a kid (or two or three - what the hell, in for a penny in for a pound), raise it (them) myself, since my husband wanted the damned thing(s), but doesn't want any of the responsibilty. Give up my career, my passion(s) my dreams and the next 20 or more years of my life all in the, probably, vain hope that it will keep someone ELSE happy (not me, but obviously I don't count in this deal)just so that in a few years when I'm completely exhausted single handedly raising the child (or children), and have proven to be a major disappointment because I don't trip to the door with perfect makeup, in a well fitting frock, in heels, every hair in place, in pearls and a frilly apron with dinner simmering on the stove every evening (damned hard to accomplish with toddlers) that he's decided to move on to someone who DOESN'T have kids who can spend more time with HIM.

And as far as the counselor telling her she's 'Wrong' (which is what you're implying in your post) for not wanting children - exactly what century are you living in?

Where's HIS compromise in the future you're outlining for "Lost" here?

Declaring

Sep. 16, 2005, 05:03 AM

My personal alarm bells rang over the tightening up of the wants and needs he mentioned Lost.

When my ex first announced we should split out of the blue to me, in shock I announced that I was willing to try anything to give us a second chance and as he started out by blaming my horse interests I even offered to take a break from that so we had some time- he refused that- I offered then to leave my job- he refused that- he was not interested in my compromises because he just wanted out at all costs (for his other bit of stuff).

I wouldn't put it past him to be trying something similar on a more gentle gradient- getting more and more unreasonable until you were forced to cry enough.

There again I'm a terrible cynic these days..

MistyBlue

Sep. 16, 2005, 05:47 AM

Declaring...I don't think you're being cynical about this. This could very well be a case of demanding something you *know* is impossible/one sided in order to get out of something you no longer want.
However this could also be a case of the husband changing his mind (or having had made a promise he didn't know he didn't really mean) and wanting children in itself isn't a bad thing. Wanting children you know your spouse doesn't want, wanting children you really don't want to have any care of and wanting children to *only* point to as progeny...none of those are good reasons to have children from the man's point of view.
From the woman's point of view...regardless of being married or not it's her body and she shouldn't feel pressured to have children if she doesn't want them.
Anyway it's looked at it's a sad situation for both involved. But it's a definite "sucker punch" out of the blue for the OP...and even though I definitely agree with the sanctity of marriage I'm not foolish enough to think all marriages can survive through everything. Nor should some marriages even try.
Children are the single largest life altering experience people can have...it's not a decision to be made from a single spoue in a marriage, a counselor who isn't going to be raising the child nor even by folks on an internet BB. If the OP knows she definitely doesn't want children...the OP shouldn't feel pressured by *anyone* to have them. Her decision was/is made...they can decide what to do from here but the child point should be non-negotiable in their future decision making.
I'm sorry you're having to go through this Lost. There's nothing wrong with not wanting to have and raise children...contrary to popular belief there is nothing unnatural for a woman to not want to procreate.

goobs

Sep. 16, 2005, 06:37 AM

aregard -truer words were never spoken. I agree with you on every point. Sorry you had such a tough lesson with your first husband - but happy that your second go around was worth all that trouble.

VirginiaBred

Sep. 16, 2005, 06:41 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I told him I was afraid I was in love with the person I thought he was, not the person he truly was discovering that he is. He said that is his biggest fear too. He just doesn't know who he is. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

lost, that is all you need to remember, to maintain your sanity and keep your focus. That is the point I made early on, and in my opinion, nothing is going to work for the marriage until he learns who he is.
Remember, if you divorce, you can always re-marry if he indeed finds his way back to the man you thought he was.

Cartier

Sep. 16, 2005, 06:41 AM

About the vows… and their importance in your life… if you believe they’re important; they’re important. Just like, if you believe the bible is the word of god, then for you it is. And if you believe that the bible (absent the Sermon on the Mount) is basically a thinly disguised political manifesto to subordinate woman and advance the agenda of those in power at the time, then that is all it is.

Regardless of your religious views, whether by design or happenstance, we have free will to believe what we choose. I suggest that you look in your heart for guidance.

About your relationship with your husband… if you are very still… and listen to yourself… you already know what is true.

As for therapy, make no mistake, therapist are people, they are not omniscient or infallible. Their education tells them to approach problems a certain way; absolutely nothing in their medical education makes them wise. A bad therapist can be extremely destructive to a relationship… and a good friend who simply listens and does not judge can be a god-send.

Years ago I dated a man, we were in love, committed to each other, going to be married. Initially this man appeared to be the entire package; he was loving, mature, responsible successful and sensitive. Turns out it was all an act… and he entirely unraveled over time.

For all of our relationship he was in psycho-therapy and I watched as he became more and more withdrawn from those around him and more and more self-centered. Everything was about “him,” his needs and his “unresolved issues from his childhood.” He became absolutely obsessed with himself. He spouted psych-babble jargon 24/7 and took responsibility for nothing he did…. (e.g., if he set you on fire, it was your choice to experience the pain).

He was a wealthy man… a cash cow for his psychiatrist, who would take his call 24/7 (and of course bill him). This man was on Ritalin, Dexedrine, Aderall, Wellbutrin, Clonidine and I forget what all else, all prescribed by the quack therapist. Because of the side effects of all the drugs, our relationship was a rollercoaster ride from hell: He loved me; he’d withdraw. He loved me; he’d withdraw. He loved me; he’d withdraw.

He started to put all kinds of demands on our relationship. I had to give up my friends, my career goals, and the things I loved to accommodate him. I was much younger back then, and at the time I was supportive of his “therapy.” I did not hold the views I hold today about the abusive nature of bad therapy. Still, back then I was close enough to him to question the medications and other things. His psychiatrist came to view me as a threat to the cash flow… the psychiatrist wanted the relationship over.

At one point this guy and I decided to go to couples therapy (his idea). The therapist (a woman) fell in love with him. She and I had one private secession, she was late and left early, all she asked about was how much money my guy had and what was the source.

My friends all saw the relationship for what it was and urged me to end it. But no, I kept plugging away, hoping that what I had loved about him was real and that he would return to being the man I fell in love with. Never happened! I turned myself inside out for this guy… until I finally had had enough.

Looking back from the distance of many years, it is amazing to me that I didn’t simply say very early on, “Bye sweetheart, this ain’t working. If you ever get your “issues resolved” look me up. Til then, I gotta move on. The quality of my life is every bit as important as yours.” But no, I stuck it out for a long time because I had “made a commitment” and that affirmation can be a horrible destructive trap.

As per the thread title, the “success story” … I learned from this relationship, made better choices... found Arthur and appreciated him immediately for the wonderful man he is.

Sarabeth

Sep. 16, 2005, 07:53 AM

If he's willing to sacrifice his relationship with you for a person he's never met before (baby), he's not worth keeping.

He doesn't sound mature or secure enough to be in a mutually supportive, happy marriage. Cut your losses and run.

bjrudq

Sep. 16, 2005, 08:00 AM

lost-you wrote:

"I just don't know if I work through it with another counsellor with the hope of somehow keeping the marriage together..."

that's not what i meant. you see a counselor to decide if you are going to keep the marriage together-if so, how to make it better; and if not, how to work through the ending.

levremont

Sep. 16, 2005, 09:23 AM

Well I certainly took my vows seriously, and fully intended on keeping them, BUT people change things on you...in my case a husband who knew from the onset what was important in my life and had previously always been supportive (not money wise, never asked or expected that) had not been to a horse show in nearly 7 yrs, or shown any interest, moral support in hard times (loosing my best horse). He started instead resenting my family for "supporting" me in my dream. I have been separted only 2 months or so, and have never been so happy in my life. I never realised how much he weighed on me... even the little comments. I stayed with him for a long time after it was "over" because I was scared of being alone. I now cannot believe how silly that was, I take better care of myself now, I have "found" all my true friends again and I am very happy.
No matter what happens, trust me, there is a reason for things and if you decide to, you will be happy either way. I am sure God only wants the best for me and I am sure he aggrees with this. (the fact that I never wanted children does make it a much easier matter though!)

Trixie

Sep. 16, 2005, 09:32 AM

What does DH stand for?

Lucassb

Sep. 16, 2005, 09:35 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I know everyone will not think like me...but I will be honest and say I wish they would. I wish people took promises more seriously...I wish loyalty meant more than it does, and I wish marriage was taken more seriously...prior to the vows as well as the duration of the marriage </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The OP relied on her husband's PROMISE about not having children.

The OP also relied on her husband committing to loyalty in their relationship... but he has now withdrawn.

When you say that people need to be able to TRUST EACH OTHER, I would agree with you... and would suggest that the OP's husband has proven himself untrustworthy. I'd say that this is the strongest argument AGAINST staying in this marriage.

I would have a lot more sympathy for the husband IF he really did want TO BE A PARENT. But he hasn't said that. He said he wants children - BUT only if the OP will make all the sacrifices required to raise them. HE DOES NOT WANT TO BE THE CAREGIVER FOR THIS CHILD.

Talk about your broken promises and how they affect people... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

aregard

Sep. 16, 2005, 09:46 AM

DH == dear husband. Or damned husband. Depending on context. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

IndysMom

Sep. 16, 2005, 09:58 AM

Wow. First of all hugs to you, lost.

Second. Let me get this clear. His attitude is as follows: "unless you do everything I want, exactly the way I want it, including having a child-a forever responsibility-we're done. And, by the way, this list is subject to change at any time and you must still comply with all of it, both said and unsaid"

If I've got it right, then I suggest your reply is as follows: "Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out".

Now, this may sound harsh, but I've been there and I waited what should have been the best 10 years of my life! (from mid-20 to mid-30). I acutally found a LIST in my ex-husbands dresser drawer with his "requirements". Boy, was that one of the final eye-openers. Will it be hard-yep. Will you be sad and cry a lot-yep. In the end will you be happier-YES. No one-and that includes you-should be a door mat. Can and should you compromise if possible-yes, but that's much different than what I've seen in your posts so far.

Get your financial house in order and get him on his way.

tosca4711

Sep. 16, 2005, 10:05 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by aregard:
DH == dear husband. Or damned husband. Depending on context. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know what it means, but I keep thinking "designated hitter."

Tosca

Cartier

Sep. 16, 2005, 10:48 AM

pacificsolo wrote <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Cartier, you know I think highly of you...but I do disagree that vows should be made to be changed....whether you are "religious" or not. Many cultures use vows to signify truth in words. It says "I am making this real to you, no matter what". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pacificsolo, I appreciate your kind words and I greatly respect your opinion; but please understand, I very strongly disagree with your fundamental premise… so much so that I think it is destructive of any useful human dynamic I would ever endorse or advocate.

Vows are words, often spoken with sincerity in the moment. I can vow to kill someone; I can vow to stay married forever to one person; I can vow to make healthy choices in life.

About your reverence for vows, I do not remotely connect to the merit. How did we as a culture ever develop this concept of a marriage vow being some inflexible binding thing? Who is benefited by this view point?

While not meaning to put words in your mouth, I suspect that you hold a conventional view that our commitment to a vow is directly connected to other aspects of the quality of our character. Essentially if we break a “vow” our word can never be trusted. I strongly disagree. The vow of marriage is (generally) made with the hope and expectation that we are making a fundamentally good choice. And as we all know, that is not always the case. We can not predict the future.

The concept of this inflexible martial vow came out of the need for societal order… i.e., society benefits if parents stay together to raise their children, rather than burdening community resources with the challenge. Consider also that early in man’s history there were no DNA tests. A husband had no way to know with any degree of certainty whether the child his wife was carrying was his. Men had all the political power then, and it was in a man’s best interest (in furtherance of his concern that the child he was paying to raise was indeed his), to make the vow of marriage unassailable and inflexible. Men even went so far as to make adultery punishable by horrific public torture.

Fast forward to this thread… we are not speaking of ending a marriage over something trivial (like a dispute about the choice between Burger King and McDonalds). There are some significant problems in the OP’s marriage. Whether the OP stays or moves on is entirely up to her… but I do not think that adherence to a contrived archaic custom that a marriage VOW is inflexible should even be a factor.

We go through this life once… I believe we should live our lives so that we may at some point reflect back and say that the choices we made reflect and celebrate wisdom, health and beauty (i.e., "beauty" in a spiritual sense or in the sense that a loving gesture is a beautiful thing). Humans are capable of a very sophisticated level of reasoning; there are many many instances where vows should be broken… where doing so is the wise and healthy thing to do.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"

Sep. 16, 2005, 11:52 AM

Two things I'd like to mention:

First, there may be sad people on the board, yes. None of us get to go through life without trials. And generally, when things are going right you are on cruise control (the "don't mess with it if it ain't broken" theory). Certainly this issue received more replies than my request about cavalettis - and don't hit me!!! - I'm not presuming importance. But it's probably not going to make a huge difference what type of cavalettis I get, but when someone is going through such a difficult and emotional time as is Lost...well, you want to help if you can, at the very least share, so she knows she's not alone.

Second - Cartier - your story is so reminiscent! When I moved here, I was alone, without family, without contacts, quite a distance from relatives, and all by my lonesome. Pretty scary. Someone I worked with started hitting on me (inappropriately - I realize now I felt threatened) - and it is quite amusing in retrospect to realize that although he saw a therapist weekly, it certainly didn't seem to be helping him get out of his emotional age of 4. When he hurt me, somehow...it became MY fault. He convinced me (since I was now pretty miserable) that I needed to see a therapist for my issues. Which I decided to do, being willing to try it...I had one session before she left for 2 weeks on vacation. During this time, my parents came to visit, and while I obviously tolerated his abhorrent behavior towards myself, when I saw his selfishness directed against my parents...well, it opened my eyes, and I flat out told him I never wanted to see him again, end of discusion. My parents are simply wonderful, and we talked it out, and I realized I had fallen into a trap - I had not yet had time to get friends, DIDN'T HAVE A HORSE!!!, had no family in the area, and was trying to establish myself in my job, and all I was looking for was ...someone. Even a schmuck. I called up the therapist and said the issue was resolved, that I dumped the guy, that I realized he was making me miserable. She refused to accept this. My arguement: if I was happy, who the hell is the therapist to judge the depth of my happiness?

Of course, if Ihad had the horse, then I would have made the value judgement: is the guy worth taking time away from the horse? And the answer would have been a resounding NO.

Lost, maybe you can make the same assessment. Seems to me that your gut is telling you things aand you are listening. And don't judge yourself too harshly. My feeling is, if you are that unhappy, and you feel you are a reasonable person, then something is wrong and it may not be you!!!!

Frankly, I appreciate the outpouring of support on the board...not all of us are pinko liberals like myself, but we all know what it is to be in difficult situations, and certainly we can share that.

Coreene

Sep. 16, 2005, 11:57 AM

I always think a healthy dose of black and white is helpful when trying to wade through shades of gray.

hastyreply

Sep. 16, 2005, 12:11 PM

I've not read all the postings but wanted to make this comment.

Just because someone isn't a "kid" person doesn't mean they won't make a good or great parent. I've had several friends who were horsey who were uncertain about being parents. (I even made a cap with ears and eyes that one could put on her son and pretend he was a puppy- she thought that was great and still has it even though he's grown now).

I not telling someone who doesn't want children to have them- please don't but if people are uncertain about how they will feel about children, then think about your relationship with your pets. Most of the things that a child needs are the same as a pet (shelter, food and TIME with you).

To many children are born just to be Trophies for their parents. Something to show off and brag about to their friends.

carolprudm

Sep. 16, 2005, 12:17 PM

fullmoon fever

Sep. 16, 2005, 12:47 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carolprudm:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by aregard:
DH == dear husband. Or damned husband. Depending on context. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
or D!(k head.
Quack quack </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif You said what I was thinking. Depending on my/his mood, it's Darling Husband or D!)k head; and he knows it. After a long time of being the latter, he is now (most of the time) the former; which is good, since I was ready to kick his butt out the door. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

DakotaTA

Sep. 16, 2005, 12:55 PM

Another member of the I never wanted kids group here.

Sorry, children and pets are not in the same category. You can sell or give away the pet if you don't like it any more or the situation arises that you cannot keep it. You can't give away or sell a child, the law frowns on it.

You can't put a child in a boarding kennel when you go on vacation.

You don't have to go down and bail a pet out of jail.

Horses/dogs/cats only get pregnant when you let them. And if there's an accidental pregnancy you can get them an abortion.

Pets don't talk back to you, nor do they occupy your time 24/7 like a child does.

Pets don't expect you to give up your own life activities for them.

Your pets love you whether you're rich or poor. OTOH, a child who has had the good life will hate you for moving him/her into lower circumstances. If you're already in lower circumstances, they sulk and whine at you for not being in better circumstances so they can have $250/pr sneakers.

Pets are much much better than children. And to those who think having a child will guarantee someone to take care of them when they get old...get over it. In this day and age they slap you into a rest home and pray you die so you don't use up all the estate before they get their grubby paws on it.

And I too was unwanted. My sisters are 16 and 14 years older than me and I knew all my life I was an accident. I couldn't wait to leave home.

My take...dump the guy. I had a tee shirt a long time ago...it said "So Many Men...So Little Time." Life is too short to live in misery.

ThirdCharm

Sep. 16, 2005, 01:26 PM

Although it is SLIGHTLY possible that Mr. Lost has undergone some sort of deep revelation about fatherhood through therapy, that seems unlikely since he's not willing to help out with the caregiver bit..... more likely his motivations are such that if Lost capitulates she'll end up not ONLY divorced, but divorced with a kid to raise on perpetually delinquent child-support payments....

Either he always wanted kids.... in which case he is a lying scumbag.....

Or, he doesn't really want kids, but knows this is a deal-breaker that will cause Lost to call it quits, absolving him of blame while painting her as an 'unnatural, non-maternal woman' to his friends and associates.....so he can go guilt-free to his girlfriend/next wife who is already more than likely waiting in the wings....

Or, he really does THINK he wants a kid, but only as a symbol of his youth/virility/immortality (since he clearly doesn't want to be responsible for raising it, just wants to trot it out on occassions sounds like)... in which case a Sweet Young Thing named Bambi is probably in the offing (I love the scene in Moonstruck "No matter who you sleep with, you're still gonna die" (to paraphrase, haven't seen it in a while)).

While I agree that vows should be taken seriously.... it seems the OP is the only one who is in this situation! "love honor and cherish" clearly mean diddly squat to Mr. Lost.... and it seems the only thing Lost can do to single-handedly salvage their vows is to cave and have a kid she really doesn't want.... give up her hobbies, career, etc to be the primary caregiver.....

Mr. Thirdcharm occassionally will make noises about having a kid..... and I always remind him that when we got married, I told him I don't have a single maternal bone in my body, I don't really like kids a whole lot, I have a career which I love, but if he really wants a kid that's fine if he does HALF the caretaking. Compromise on both our parts. He agrees that is fair, and fortunately http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif he doesn't want kids as much as he wants freedom to work 12 hour days and hang out with his buddies on weekends.

Jennifer

Bogie

Sep. 16, 2005, 02:05 PM

Mr. Bogie has a family history of depression and has had several severe incidents . . . if your husband is depressed (and it sounds like he is, despite what the counselor says), this has nothing to do with you.

When my husband gets depressed, he does not think rationally. It still makes me feel terrible when he's depressed, but inside I do know that it has very little to do with me. The wanting children issue may be a red herring and just a manifestation of his depression.

You should get a counselor that you feel comfortable with to talk through your feelings. For your husband, you might need to take him to someone who can treat his depression. I was so worried about my husband that I finally just called a well-known professional in the area, put him in the car and took him to an appointment. It helped a lot.

Good luck and lots of ((())).

hastyreply

Sep. 16, 2005, 03:29 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">DakotaTA </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
We are obviously talking about different kinds of pet owners. I am refering to people who make a life time commitment to their animals, horses, dogs, cats. If you keep a horse for it's entire lifetime you'll be spending as much time as you would rearing a child.

I was also implying that people who have learned to make that long term commitment to an animal don't necessarily have that much trouble doing the same to a child.

I've never "boarded a pet while going on vacation", "bailed any children out of jail", No children have gotten pregnant, though a dumped barn cat did. I guess it's a point of view thing as to how much time my animals/kids take and I've had dogs and horses give me attitude and disrespect. I don't think I've given up any life activities because of children. I move 3 children from a 3000sq ft home to a 1000sqft home and added 2 more people and my children didn't sulk or whine they adjusted.

Children reflect the values and influences of their parents. So I guess if you slapped your parents in a rest home then your children will probably do the same.

I'm sorry that you felt you were unwanted that was a reflection of how your parents treated and valued you. So I guess it's for the best the live you chose.

I was just commenting that "loving children" doesn't necessarily make you a good candidate to be a parent and likewise not being child crazy doesn't necessarily mean you'll be a bad parent.

Jaegermonster

Sep. 16, 2005, 04:15 PM

Lost, this situation has become about "YOU" not about "US". I know it sounds cliche, but there is no US without a YOU. You must be true to yourself. You need to be honest with yourself, look at the long term big picture. I have been in exactly the same situation as you are. And as someone else posted, it turned out that he had met someone else only I didn't know it at the time. Within a month of our divorce being final she was knocked up. Anyway enough about me, but I know where you are right now...........
Sit down one day when it's quiet, or on a long ride, and look at your future. 5, 10, even 20 years from now. Look at what you are doing and where you are. Is he in it? No? then you know what you need to do.
We were married for 7 years. I thank god every day I never had children with him. Otherwise we would have eventually divorced anyway and I would have been stuck with a screaming kid all by myself. And this would drastically impact my horsiness, which would be a bad thing. I'm now married to a wonderful man, 2 years ago he sold his house he had before we met and bought me a horse farm on 5 acres, and he is incredible. I am very lucky.
Don't cave and have a baby and do the mom thing to try to save your marriage. If the two of you can't save it, the stress of you 1)having a baby, and 2) doing it when you don't really want to, will flush it down the toilet for sure. And you will end up bitter and resentful.
Life is too short to be unhappy and miserable. You can make your dreams come true, but it doesn't sound like it's going to happen with him. But ask yourself the questions I presented and see what the answers are.

Zonie

Sep. 16, 2005, 04:20 PM

Just a thought that may, or may not, help.

Have you or your spouse considered Al-Anon as a means of support?

I only ask because you mentioned, discretly, that he was "self medicating" at one point, and that he had a very difficult childhood that he has only recently started to confront. Even if he is no longer self-medicating, he may still exhibit behaviors of an alcoholic.

And those behaviors, including depression, control issues, and the alternating loving and withdrawing, can make you start to wonder if he's crazy -- or you are. I offer this idea because I am currently going through something similar myself.

My parter is the adult child of an alcoholic and grew up in a very disfunctional home. She does not drink herself, but somedays, living with her is almost unbearable as she alternately pushes me away and begs me to never leave her. She will "act out" like a teenager, overreacting to things I have said or done, and then complain that I am distant. I was going crazy trying to figure out how to please her until I realized I never could.

Now, I am seeing a therapist, reading books about adult children of alcoholics, and starting to attend Al-Anon. I pray that one day she will start therapy and attend Adult Children of Alcoholics groups to help her cope with the pain she still carries. We are still together, although there are definitely some hard times. The support of the groups does help when I start feeling too crazy. So, if you are looking for "success stories" -- well, I don't know that I'd call it a success yet, but there is light.

I don't know if this is relevant to your situation, but when you mentioned the "self medication," it rang a bell.

Sep. 16, 2005, 04:39 PM

A couple of issues that I am having a hard time with in this thread. One is that those of you that choose not to have children characterize them in an extremely negative light. I can't say that every moment with them is a Hallmark moment, but it is certainly not all screaming their heads off at WalMart either. Incidently, much of what you see in public are spoiled untrained children. How many of you enjoy spoiled untrained bratty pets? Not many of us, I venture. Children have to be trained and taught the mores of society. Unfortunately, too few that become parents anymore take the time and sacrifice in the immediate that it takes to turn out resonable, functional adults. Just like breeding horses is more a labor of love than a money maker for most, so is making and raising children. Rant on issue one over

Issue two. There has been suggested that the marriage contract should be terminated because he changed. I have to disagree with this as a reason to divorce. That is part of the security of the marriage vow, that each can grow and change and will still have a precious person to grow with and love them. (I don't mean love in the fuzzy happy feeling sense, I mean love in the self sacrifical sense that wants the best for the partner regardless of the personal cost) How many of you are the same today as you were 5, 10, 15 years ago? I know that I am not. But my DH is not the same either. I am glad that he hasn't dumped me just because I changed, some better some worse (like my waist line yikes!)We change as we grow and age and I think that was the real intent behind a permanent marriage vow. It is a commitment to love forever, no matter what. That, when not abused, leads to the freedom to discover who we really are and grow intertwined with our other half.

Here is a thought about your situation, Lost, he may want the baby as a tie to you. He has already stated that he feels lonely when you are off with the horses. He is insecure for some reason about your love. Probably from childhood issues, which his examination of have made him less secure in love, rather than more so...in other words, he has not really worked through the problems and been healed. His trying to control things is another manifestation of insecurity. Emotional withdrawl is also a sign that a person is insecure, they don't want to interact for fear of being rejected. Having a child will not solve his insecurities, but there may be other ways to salvage the marriage. If you understand where he is really coming from, the solutions may be more obvious.

Jaegermonster

Sep. 16, 2005, 04:46 PM

If he's lonely when she's off with the horses, there are lots of pets in New Orleans that could keep him company. It seems to me that he wants a baby for all the wrong reasons, and he doesn't want to be an active participant in it's life, ie A PARENT.
Now, I don't particularly care to be around children for long periods. I'm ok with friends kids, and I like to play with them and stuff, but then I get over it and go on to other things. So I understand where the OP is coming from.
I just don't think it is fair for him to throw this out there, and then tell her she is going to be the one making all the sacrifices and doing all the work while he gets to be good time daddy. That sounds like crap to me.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"

Sep. 16, 2005, 08:00 PM

It is the issue that Lost will have to do all the work for the child that bothers me. I accept that women are the ones who get pregnant (hey - all those college classes finally stuck for something!). But after the kid comes out, there is no reason why people can't adjust the division of labor as they see fit.

I was seeing a guy in grad school (he was a visiting student in my lab) who just assumed he would have kids because that's what you do. I told him that if he wanted kids that much, then he should be prepared to make it a joint venture and take on at least 50% of the childcare. He was appalled - he replied that I could just take off the time and keep up by reading the literature (equals END OF CAREER). When I asked him how he could ever think that I would be willing to do that, his reply was, "My work is more important than yours."

By the way, not only was I at a more prestigious institution, I had published more papers and in better journals. Thank goodness I wasn't a total moron and I dumped him right there.

llt

Sep. 16, 2005, 08:17 PM

Ok, it is IMPOSSIBLE to determine what is going on here without the input of MR. Lost. He hasn't had the opportunity to present his side of the story. Maybe, just maybe, he has some valid points. God only knows why happened to him as a child or what prompted his need to spawn. Y'all are assuming things based on one side of the story and your own experience - you are doing this woman a disservice by offering any advice - unless of course you have a degree in psychiatry.

Irish Ei's

Sep. 16, 2005, 08:31 PM

Next time you hear a baby or very small child screaming in public, check your watch...90% of the time it's either lunchtime, naptime or both.

Jingles......

nhwr

Sep. 16, 2005, 10:11 PM

I don't try to convert people about children, though it having them has been the best thing I have ever done in my life, hands down. Oh I joke about selling them to the gypsies occasionally. But I wouldn't trade them for anything. People that think child are a PITA are like people who think riding isn't really a sport or manure smells really foal. It is a contextual thing....

I still think it is an extremely poor gamble for the child involved for lost to roll with Mr. lost's changes. I am saying she should divorce him (though she has the ground, IMO, should she choose to). Just don't have a baby ,please.

Mariesonny

Sep. 17, 2005, 07:14 AM

Wow! Tons of replies and support and I have no time to read them all.

Hubby and I are childless. He did want children but was pretty flexible about the whole thing. We put it off and eventually did try for a short period of time. He knew that he would be primary caregiver. Unfortunately, or fortunately, it just didn't happen for us. He was the one who even suggested me going back on the pill. We are both happy and there are other ways to become involved in the lives of young people other than having a child yourself.

Hang in there and be true to what you want. Having a child is difficult enough in a good marriage. It will not fix one with problems. I think a lot of men want children as long as they have a cute little wifey at home to take care of them. That is Ok if that is what the woman wants but I am just not that woman and it sounds like you are not either.

NowThatsATrot

Sep. 17, 2005, 07:34 AM

I keep rewriting and deleting my response, because I can't quite get it right. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

I'm finally going to go with this: The problem seems to be only ostensibly about having children -- I think there are much bigger issues here that have to be worked out. It's impossible to get the full story without Mr. Lost's input, though as a woman (and a rather cynical one at that) it is easy to side with Lost right off the bat.

Lost, I will say that I think you and your husband do need to look into seeing another counselor, or several if you have to find one that is good at being an impartial but supportive third-party. Personal counseling -- nothing to do with marriages or legal advice -- might not be a bad idea either. I personally hate this form of therapy (possibly because I've been dragged into it from an early age at the start of my own parents' unpleasant divorce), but for some people it works wonders.

I'm sorry you find yourself in this position, Lost, and I hope everything works out. You have a lot of big decisions to make and none of them will come easily.

(P.S.: I've often suggested to friends that they lease a horse before buying one so they can get a feel for the respsonsibilities involved; it's really a shame they don't have an equivalent for children! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

FlightCheck

Sep. 17, 2005, 08:20 AM

Not all of us who do not want children hate them.

I love my niece and my nephews. I go to their baseball/soccer/piano recitals, their birthday parties, etc. When we had the farm, the kids were always staying over - for a day, a week, etc.. I like babies - I don't care if they throw up or need to be changed - I can do that too.

I have never wanted children because I KNOW I would be a rotten mother. I KNOW that I would resent giving up things because of a child. I KNOW that I don't want to do the "get up, get the kids ready, take them to school, get them to soccer/baseball/etc." dance.

I have known this my whole life. My poor father has asked me time and time again if he and my mother did anything wrong that made me not want children. My more pragmatic mother says that if more women really gave thought to it, there would be less abandoned/abused children in the world.

If, after 11yrs, Mr. FlightCheck suddenly decided he wanted children, it WOULD be a divorce situtation.

Or, actually, as I have told him, "We don't divorce. We BURY" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Chief2

Sep. 17, 2005, 08:48 AM

Two stories, different results.
Story #1:We married not wanting children due to carreers, etc. One changed their mind, the other did not. We elected to remain married. The one who wanted the children now teaches children, cares for the horses and the spouse. All is well.
Story #2: My cousin married a man who said he wanted children. Within weeks, he came clean, admitted that he never wanted childre, he really only wanted her, and would never change his mind. She wasted no time and within months, he found himself divorced. She is now married to a very nice man, and they have an eight year old daughter around whom the sun revolves.

carolprudm

Sep. 17, 2005, 08:49 AM

I agree with Dakota TA.
I have 3 wonderfull children and lots of great pets and I know the difference between them.

I think I am a good pet owner and I was a good mother.

You can leave your dog or cat or horse alone when you go shopping. It is dangerous and possibly illegal to do that with a child.

Children, even the best of them, grow up to make decisions that will cause your heart to break for them, and you can't do a thing about it. A parent has to a very great extent let the child make his or her own mistakes but it can be extremely painfull to watch.

Pets don't get drivers licenses and don't have friends who have drivers licenses.

You do not have to worry about your pet and irresponsible alcohol consumption, either theirs or their friends.

fergie

Sep. 17, 2005, 08:57 AM

Lost,
For me, I stick with things until I am sure I have tried everything, so there are no regrets later. When is that for you, where is your breaking point.... only you can decide. I also feel that you can get more data to make that decision by living with them, not without them. So for me, you're in or you're out. And if you're out, then get the f out.... Don't you ever leave either. Make him do the leaving.
Unfortunately, when I read some of your posts, I think this feels like another woman. If there is a sudden change in the man, there is usually a reason. And men don't leave without someplace to go. This are things my mother told me, and I think they hold true for generations and generations....
Good luck and get some help for yourself. If you go to a pshchiatrist vs. psychologist, they can prescribe drugs to help you through this, if needed. I'm sure all of this frustration and depression has changed your brain chemistry quite a bit. Hang in there. Someday the nightmares will return to your sleeping life and not the waking one....

carolprudm

Sep. 17, 2005, 09:01 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fergie:
<SNIP>
Unfortunately, when I read some of your posts, I think this feels like another woman. If there is a sudden change in the man, there is usually a reason. And men don't leave without someplace to go. This are things my mother told me, and I think they hold true for generations and generations....<SNIP>
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Don't forget that it is very possible for one person to have 2 cell phones, or a credit card whose bill goes to the post office.

fergie

Sep. 17, 2005, 09:09 AM

Sad, but true.

fullmoon fever

Sep. 17, 2005, 09:16 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carolprudm:
Don't forget that it is very possible for one person to have 2 cell phones, or a credit card whose bill goes to the post office. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Also, pre-paid cell cards and deleting your call history works well. There are many, many ways to sneak around and I know most of them. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

VirginiaBred

Sep. 17, 2005, 10:49 AM

fullmoon fever....

I was married to one that taught me all those sneaking tricks....

Check for a PO Box and prepaid calling cards. That's what I found.

Lambie Boat

Sep. 17, 2005, 12:46 PM

my ex had a po box, but left the key/# out once. I found the box full of gay porn. that was it.

Plumcreek

Sep. 17, 2005, 01:32 PM

I just had time to start reading this long thread. Got thru page 2, so if I am behind the ball here, sorry.

Men sometimes don't KNOW what they want. He could have agreed to no kids because of some revulsion from his upbringing. Men also are around many other men who are spectators in their kids life - mom does it all. Seems reasonable to them.

I would agree that your support thru his college may have something to do with this. Now he might feel he has options he didn't have before.

My husband also comes from a family with a history of small scale depression. None of them ever took medication for it, just were disfunctional. He has been on medication with, great results (as I saw it) but always quits when he starts to feel better and be a happier person. Later when he is back acting depressed, he remembers that he felt "bad" on the pills. (Totally contrary to how he acted). That is because he can't cope with the fact that he needs them. Doctor calls him a "classic depressive". I have realized that people who are chemically imbalanced in their brain towards the depression side, but not whacko, have a common trait: they need outside "things" to make them happy, it does not come from within. So they go searching...

Good news: Tryptophane helps a lot. As a neutraceutical. it does not have the "I need drugs" stigma, and my husband is staying on it, with great results. You can buy it online. Often on this BB, I see husband's depression referred to in marriage going bad threads.

My husband and I do not have kids. I don't think he ever really knew one way or the other how he felt, but thankfully did not switch on me. Been married 30 years, mostly pretty happy. Our values and interests, except horses, are the same. Since I am 10 years younger, his old age care is covered. Now that I understand how genetics work, I am so thankful we did not have kids. A family history of depression, chemical imabalance, whatever, may come out in YOUR kids, then you are talking behavior problems, drug rehab, stc.

I have seen great families. Both mom and dad are dedicated to raising those kids and TEACHING them. I could never have done it right.

Finally, I think the kid question is one issue that SHOULD end a marriage if there is a genuine difference of opinion. That is one of the huge life decisions that a person must not compromise on, then regret it for the rest of their life.

lost

Sep. 19, 2005, 10:09 AM

Thanks so very much everyone for their thoughts and the private messages some have sent with encouragement, etc. I do appreciate it more than you know. I was able to get away for the weekend with a girlfriend which was very helpful.

One thing I realized when I just reread the thread is that I (subconsciously?) never shared one key point. My DH has said all of these things without compromise, but also says "I know you don't want these things and therefore I do not see any alternative other than divorce."

Thus, I have been written out of the love and marriage in his heart. I don't know if it is a phase or this is the real him that I am only now discovering. It is tough to fight something that doesn't make sense. He says he doesn't know why he feels this way either.

EqTrainer

Sep. 19, 2005, 10:36 AM

Ah.

It sounds like perhaps (and I am sorry to say this, oh so sorry to say this) that perhaps he really just wants a divorce, and this is the excuse. You may never know the real reason, or you may find it out later, after the divorce.

I am so sorry. Once people say things like that, IME, it is a done deal in their mind.

RegentLion

Sep. 19, 2005, 10:48 AM

I haven't read the whole thread (but will after I post this)...

It sounds like it is the EMOTIONAL distance that is really the problem.... he's figuring out some problems w/his past, and isn't turning to YOU (when you're supposed to be able to support him!) for any kind of emotional support/help/comfort. Instead he's turning you off....

I dated a guy that did just this, complete with the hard childhood, etc. He refused to discuss his issues with me and would withdraw to the point of non-communication for days. It ended the relationship. He wasn't able to (not that he "wouldn't", he really "couldn't")open up to me. It taught me that people relate to the world in different ways. It isn't a bad thing, but you have to ask yourself if it is something you can deal with.

My fiance is also emotionally reserved, but he tries very hard to make sure he lets me into his feelings. And I am very very thankful for that.

I suggest that you ignore the kids issue at present, and start focusing on the emotional distance... perhaps letting him know that his being an emotionally distant father/husband isn't going to make a nice life for his kids... and I assume that since his childhood was difficult that he woulnd't want to force that on his own children.

I don't know if I'm making any sense here. I would guess that it is the psychological/emotional trauma that is causing him to withdraw from you, and somehow related to him wanting children. He needs to open up with you before you even consider having kids. It is stupid to bring children into an unstable family, and I'm glad you realize it.

Good luck. And I agree with everyone else, find your own counselor. I think it sounds like you have your head on straight. Keep thinking. Keep riding, it kept ME going. Of course, keep us updated, we are all hoping for you.

Duffy

Sep. 19, 2005, 11:32 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lost:
Thanks so very much everyone for their thoughts and the private messages some have sent with encouragement, etc. I do appreciate it more than you know. I was able to get away for the weekend with a girlfriend which was very helpful.

One thing I realized when I just reread the thread is that I (subconsciously?) never shared one key point. My DH has said all of these things without compromise, but also says "I know you don't want these things and therefore I do not see any alternative other than divorce."

Thus, I have been written out of the love and marriage in his heart. I don't know if it is a phase or this is the real him that I am only now discovering. It is tough to fight something that doesn't make sense. He says he doesn't know why he feels this way either. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure sounds like he's "checked out" of this marriage already, for whatever reason. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

My ex tried to pull the, "I want a divorce, but I still love you" crap. We had lunch the day after this announcement and I asked him if he'd consider counselling. He said no. Emotionally, I'd been on a tightrope for months - just didn't want to face the emotional distance I was experiencing. Confrontation is not my strong suit.

Good luck to you, Lost!

Plumcreek

Sep. 19, 2005, 11:42 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I don't know if it is a phase or this is the real him that I am only now discovering. It is tough to fight something that doesn't make sense. He says he doesn't know why he feels this way either. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So sorry for you. Take him at his word at this point in time. You are probably getting divorced. It is not your fault or anything you did. Men are just different - they do not analyze themselves. He was young then, but is older now and ready for a family. You can't ever count on a man wanting the same thing now and five years from now. They tend to live in the moment. Maybe it is biology, dunno.

Spend your money on a good lawyer, not another counselor. Don't pay maintainence just because you have been working hard and earning more money while he's been in school. And, you will not be alone for the rest of your life.

Inyureye

Sep. 19, 2005, 11:51 AM

I have not read the other posts, so I apologize, but read your first post, and this is my first impression: I don't think he was being honest with you from the beginning. I think he wanted children and thought he could change your mind, once he had you tied down. I think you are well rid of a partner who is not really a partner in support of you. He is in support of what he wants and needs, but not you. He even has hired folks to be on his side! (the Realtor/Therapist). Tell her where to go piss. Sorry.

Yes, this sudden "change of heart" is probably coming out of a new woman he's found. He is raising the bar to levels he knows you won't abide by, so it looks like you failed the marriage, not him.

Personally, I would tell him cooly just that - that he has lied to you from the start, that he is likely bringing all this up because he has a honey on the side he wants and hopes he'll make you look bad and get out of the marriage. Then I would say, if he did protest, that it doesn't matter even if he DOESN't have a honey on the side, he is treating you exactly as if he did by changing his story and rules and such and you haven't got any room in your life for men like him. Then I would shut down (at least from him), hire and attorney, and find somewhere to count my scars and recover and remind myself to look for honesty in my next partner. Cause this guy ain't thinking about what's good for you, at all.

Sorry, but, that's my opine.

lost

Sep. 19, 2005, 11:58 AM

RegentLion..you hit the nail on the head. I am trying not to be rash..and address one issue at a time. A whole marriage to lose...if I get hasty. So, the why of the distancing when he has been the most emotionally intimate person I have ever before known....it is perplexing.

But I feel like the writing is on the wall. As many of you are pointing out and relaying your own experiences. I thank you. I can't say I have done my best if I haven't tried to honor my side of the vows. Even if he does not.

Critters Everywhere

Sep. 19, 2005, 12:00 PM

(((((hugs)))))

I'm so sorry you have to go through this!

Duffy

Sep. 19, 2005, 12:00 PM

That's all you can do, Lost. {{{{{ HUGS }}}}}

Duffy

Sep. 19, 2005, 01:05 PM

Except that HE won't agonize over this, pacificsolo. That's the unfair part. (He's already justified his decision.)

Jaegermonster

Sep. 19, 2005, 01:44 PM

Sweetie, based on your most recent posts, I must say this: your husb is similar to my ex in that he is spineless and gutless. He has already made up his mind but does not have the balls to follow through. He wants you to be the heavy and kick him out and deliver the coup de grace. So you must do what you must do, or you will be putting up with this garbage for the rest of your life.

VirginiaBred

Sep. 19, 2005, 02:07 PM

Well, Renée Zellweger and Kenny Chesney just split, after only 4 months, and she based it on FRAUD.

You could do the same. Get a good lawyer. Now.
Watch your bank accounts. Any "joint" money? Get a handle on that right away.

RegentLion

Sep. 19, 2005, 02:14 PM

It does sound like the guy wants OUT and is afraid to do it himself... making the OP miserable and hoping she does the hard stuff..

BUT she did say that <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I asked him to move out last week for a separation. He said he didn't want it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So how does that fit in?

I also imagine that if I were suddenly facing some horrible hard stuff about my past that I would perhaps withdraw and think about it and maybe be irrational about it and my behavior

I think that if I were the OP, I'd try a little longer to see if there were something I could do... if not to save the marriage, but to be a decent person. But while I was doing that I'd figure MY shit out, as in: get a lawyer, see a therapist (to help with everything), support system, etc., so that if the worst DOES happen, that I wouldn't be SOL.

carolprudm

Sep. 19, 2005, 02:48 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Plumcreek:<SNIP>

Spend your money on a good lawyer, not another counselor. Don't pay maintainence just because you have been working hard and earning more money while he's been in school. And, you will not be alone for the rest of your life. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Emphasize the GOOD lawer part.

Sep. 19, 2005, 04:32 PM

OK, I have read this whole thread. And here’s my $.02 ….

Someone waaaaaaay back on p. 1 or 2 said marriage is a 50/50 proposition. And I don't agree with that. It might average out to 50/50 over the long run, but on a day-to-day, week-to-week and, sometimes over much longer timeframes, one of the partners needs more support than the other. And the other partner has to be the “strong” one, who gives waaaaay more than his or her 50% for awhile. But that is part of the “for better or worse” thing. It’s part of the deal.

In marriage, you don’t keep score and there are no “rules” This isn’t a game of gin rummy or checkers. It’s two human beings who are committed to each other, who change and grow and keep working at staying together in some form of harmony until, in the process, their relationship becomes more important than their individual needs.

This does not mean the partners have no individual identity outside the marriage. It simply means that you will always think twice (or many many more times) before you do something that you know would hurt your partner and weaken or harm your marriage.

When you have disagreements with your partner about what that means (and please note, I didn't say if), you both work at finding a way through it. And sometimes resolution is a long time coming. Joseph Campbell calls it the “Ordeal of Marriage” and that’s about as apt a descriptor as I’ve ever heard.

The key to getting through this ordeal is that both parties are committed to the marriage, and they respect, honor and love each other (listed in order of importance, I think). Otherwise, someone is going to take it on the chin.

lost … I could be wrong, but it doesn’t sound as though your husband is committed to your marriage. This isn’t just about having children. It’s about control. He’s not happy, for whatever reason. You’re not doing what he wants you to do, so he’s checked out, which is probably how he dealt with whatever happened to him as a kid.

Get another counselor. See if you can get him to try the anti-depressants. Give it as much as you can. But be prepared to face the fact that your husband just isn’t up to the “ordeal.”

I wish you strength and the very best, whatever happens.

foundationmare

Sep. 19, 2005, 06:16 PM

MP, Amen.

I have two failed marriages in my past and can recite the reasons why. It's water under the bridge now and I'm a different person with different, more realistic, expectations.

I haven't given up on marriage, or commitment in general, and I'm optimistic that I'll get it right one of these days.

To the OP, I've never had to deal with the kids-or-not situation but I absolutely understand the ramifications of childbearing on a relationship. The only good reason to have a kid is because two people are united in their desire to parent a little F1 with a minimum of spatting and a maximum of patience, resilience and unity.

I, too, think your hubby has opted out and this is his not-so-graceful way of compelling you to give him the boot.

Hugs. Life/love sucks sometimes, but the strong ones prevail. I hope you're a strong one.

RegentLion

Sep. 19, 2005, 06:36 PM

I thought of a few things.

1. Why would you want kids if you don't want to be responsible for them????

2. It seems as though BOTH of you are unwilling to be "primary care givers" but HE wants kids anyway. I know a lot of families like this with day care or babysitters being the "primary care giver," and yet the parents really love and support their kids while having a career. Perhaps this is what he is thinking?

3. Is it possible that he withdrew because suddenly (!!) he wants kids and you don't??? Just something to think about as a possible cause for the emotional withdrawedness... Of course I'm not part of the situation so have no idea, just trying to open up some other possibilities.

So I guess.... (this is a very long shot) Is it possible that he didn't want kids because he didn't want to be a bad parent (like presumably his parents were)? And now through therapy he's learned that he doesn't have to raise a child the way HE was raised, and so has decided that he would like to be a father. But, when he came to you with his concerns, you still feel like you don't want to have kids (which is OKAY), but he feels shut out by YOU, and has in turn shut YOU out?

Like I said, a long shot. But trying to figure out if there is any way that you wouldn't have to lose your marriage. In your first post you sounded like you wouldn't want to lose your husband.

lost

Sep. 19, 2005, 11:07 PM

Well, some progress tonite. He was looking through some photos of us and called me at work, extremely upset, telling me he loves me and doesn't know why he shut me out. It was almost like he came out of some haze.

We talked a bit more later tonite and he still isn't sure why he did it but realized what he was letting go (the marriage), for some reason, tonite. We talked a bit more about the children issue and what we both want and how he needs to realize that everything cannot be black and white...the world is a messy place. But, I wanted to table that for a while to see if he can address the other issues first.

We will see. It was nice to know a bit more "what" I am fighting. And, if he slips back into it again, I now know. I am definitely not certain we can work things out..but now we perhaps can start on a path of figuring it out together.

I know some of you who feel I should kick him out or file for divorce will think I am weak (or similar). Perhaps I am, but I also want to be sure I have done everything I can to honor my vows and be sure I don't throw what was once a good union down the toilet.

He suggested we see another counsellor together. He wants his appointment tomorrow with the old one to be his last. He talked about how he can rearrange his work schedule for a child...obviously actions speak louder than words...but at least we are now speaking.

I am sooo appreciative of you guys giving me your input. I will keep you updated.

Jaegermonster

Sep. 20, 2005, 02:33 AM

Girl, are you sure you aren't reading my diary from when I went through this? The night before our divorce was final he stood in our foyer in our brand new house hugging me and crying saying how sorry he was that he hurt me and he wanted me back and all this other garbage.....
He is in all kinds of turmoil, and no one likes change, remember that. There is also the old you don't know what you've got til it's gone syndrome. So don't let him blind you with sweet talk. You have to do what is best for you, but please try to be as objective with yourself as you can. It is very easy to believe that you see what you want to see instead of what is really there. Many hugs.

Declaring

Sep. 20, 2005, 02:48 AM

Agreed with the last poster. I understand that you are pleased that you are both talking again, but be careful not to read too much into it as you could stand to get very hurt. That is me not assuming that you have or you haven't either.

My ex ditched me but still popped around for a while to act like nothing had happened and even had a go at me when he heard I had kissed another guy. He didn't want me but he didn't exactly want to let go either.

On the bright side, yes it could be a turning point. But you need to talk it all out now as if this resurfaces in another few years- it will hurt, maybe even more.

Ridgetop Ghost

Sep. 20, 2005, 06:28 AM

How typical--not to be mean, OP, but they ALWAYS come back crying and bawling. Doesn't last long--next thing you know you're ready to bash his teeth in and toss his bags out the door.

When I think of how much of MY TIME I wasted giving some boo hooing guy a second chance, I could just slap myself. The way I look at it now is that my time is too precious and life is too short to waste time with guys who act like buttheads. Let him go make someone else miserable. Look at how many days you have been in turmoil and feeling upset because of him, and believe me, there will be more of the same. I will never let a man upset me like that again--I prefer to go through life feeling happy and content. Seems like some men just LIVE to upset women--gives them a feeling of power, I suspect. The minute they realize you don't care enough to be upset, they're out the door in a flash because their little game isn't fun for them anymore. So don't be a sucker and play along with his babyish little power trips, if that is, in fact, what he's up to. You have to believe YOU'RE TOO GOOD TO BE TREATED THAT WAY!!!!!!!!!!

And Renee Z filed based on FRAUD--sounds like she found out he's GAY. What else can it be? Lots more common than women care to think. I could have told her he was gay just by looking at him--I mean, COME ON!!!!

Duffy

Sep. 20, 2005, 06:40 AM

lost - you need to do what your heart (AND mind) tell you to do. I don't think there's any harm in giving your husband a chance to work out his issues here. Just don't get bogged down too long - it will destroy you in so many ways for a long time.

This is not a bf/gf thing. This is a marriage. It deserves a committment to make it work, if possible. If hubby makes that attempt, it will have been worth it. If he bails again, and he surely might..., then you know you've given it all you possibly can and will be able to move on much easier, imo.

More {{{{{ hugs }}}}} to you, lost!

Please feel free to PT if you want. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

fergie

Sep. 20, 2005, 06:59 AM

Lost,
Reread MP's advice - it's the soundest I've read so far. For me, if I enjoy my time with him more than without him, I stay. I'm pretty basic. You only have so much time on this earth, so you better use that time enjoying things. So, if you're happier with him, stay, if you're happier without him, leave. You will know when you know which it is, and it differs for everyone. Each and every situation is different. Good luck.

Hopeful Hunter

Sep. 20, 2005, 07:46 AM

Lost, that is a change, and I respect you for seeing and and for being willing to see it through.

I do, however, think that it might still be good for YOU - to help you be more centered, stronger and self-aware - to see a counselor privately and to also become aware of potential legal obligations/options. You do NOT need to use those legal options, but knowing what they are, what processes you might face, etc could give you more insight into potential choices.

As to being "weak" to hear him out - not true. At least not IF you also take this as a wake up call to yourself to determine your own private boundaries and needs. You do have an investment in this marriage, and as MP pointed out, ain't no marriage that's 50/50 -- hell, on good days you might hit 70/30 imo. What matters is that both of you feel your needs are respected and met.

Choosing to stay or go is totally up to you. But I do think that looking at pros and cons of both options is a reasonable and prudent thing to do. I remember when I used to fly in a small hobby plane with a colleague -- we always wore parachutes, but certainly never PLANNED to use them. However, he always did a pre-flight checklist, including how to deploy the chute. Knowing that protocol made it easier to feel safe in an antique aircraft. Maybe knowing YOUR options for change can also give you the space to see if you can work this through to a new relationship. Good luck.

fargo

Sep. 20, 2005, 08:00 AM

Hi Lost, read the whole thread and am glad you're talking again. But I wonder even if he's willing to change a shedule, that shouldn't matter so much because you don't want to have children?? I hope he is on his way back but I think this will be a road of many ups and downs and mood swings. I hope he's not just playing your feelings. I think it's important that he agreed to another counseler but it's also way more important that his issues are sorted out and that he's not depressed but a stable person. And then you decide if he's still the one for you I guess. And that doesn't mean that you have to have his babies or that you should decide now because he shows some potention this doesn't mean that you're there by a long shot. But I guess and I hope that you see and feel that for yourself as well. Don't trick yourself, be well and take care of you! Wish you a lot of wisdom and strength.

Salar

Sep. 20, 2005, 08:32 AM

As others have alluded to....this scene sounds all too familiar to me as well. Unfortunately it took me 4 years to really "see the light" and realize that I needed to distance myself and finalize the enevitable. It has only been a year and a half since we separated, but this brings back (at am alarming rate) what I went through.

As you are now, I wanted to be so very sure that before I closed the door that there would be no guessing or "what if's". I can not believe how very much I just want to take hold of you, sit down and tell you what to expect. Unfortunatly, this is a course that is and can only be driven by yourself. We can offer support and input but please, please, please......trust your heart and your head.

I see so many similarities in that he has changed his mind on everything. This DID NOT happen overnight, I know that you feel blindsided by this, but trust me there are many issues surrounding this behavior.

I wish that I had a dollar for everytime that he said that he was "sorry" and would change. This behaviour WILL NOT change unless he truely believes that there is a problem. I stuck with it for as I said, for 4 years and although I am so happy without the stress in my life, looking back I caused alot of negatives in my life while I "put up with this behavious". Please know that someone who supposedly loves you, (no matter what they may be going through in their personal lives - his childhood background etc.) should NEVER intentionally hurt the ones they love. It took me far too liong to realize this. My ex, after I finally said that it was over, scrambled, cried, professed his love and his willingness to see any counsellor that I chose. It was too late, and I realized that words were no subsitute for actions and as Dr Phil suggests....past behaviour is a good indication of what lies in the future. Be smart.

poltroon

Sep. 20, 2005, 10:48 AM

My mother impressed upon me that I should not have children unless I was prepared to raise them myself as a single parent.

That no matter how wonderful my mate might be, no matter what he promised, that anything could happen: he could be sick or hurt or killed, we could split, he might not be able to help. In the end as long as I was alive it would be my responsibility and burden and mine alone.

Don't have kids unless you really want them. For yourself. They're even harder to sell than horses. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Plumcreek

Sep. 20, 2005, 10:54 AM

Who needs Dr. Laura? - great advice right here!

One BB member (Tom King?) once said:

Work, Children, Horses - pick two.

How true.

lost

Sep. 20, 2005, 12:04 PM

Hi all. The advice offered is definitely being heeded. Although I feel positively about the steps taken last nite, I am not naive (any morehttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif and am aware of myself, him, patterns, etc. I am hopeful that we will be able to resolve our problems together. It may not be (and probably will not be) to stay together based on what he voiced that he hopes for last nite. I can accept that. But, at least it can start amicably. And I now don't feel as completely lost as I did last week. Weird, huh? Strange power relationships hold over our emotions.

I have gotten my ducks in a row regarding the various aspects mentioned here by everyone who has posted - I hope - (ie financial, atty, work, place for myself and horses, potential new jobs, etc.) My current job is now aware of the situation. I am trying to make an appt with new counsellor (both a solo counsellor for me) and am making him responsible, with me, for finding the new joint counsellor.

That is really all I can do. I want to see where this brings us. When it is time to discuss or think about children, I want to do it, not just because of what he has done in the past week, but despite it. Perhaps I will decide I want to be a mom...and he has raised my awareness. Perhaps that decision will
be to not have a child with him. I will never have a child I don't want to parent 100%. I am adamant about making the right choices for me. We will see.

Again many thanks to everyone for the continued support.

Salar

Sep. 20, 2005, 12:21 PM

Lost,
Glad that you forging ahead and it certainly sounds like you have all of your ducks in a row. It is never easy, and whatever the outcome is for you, I guarantee that you will come out of this a much stronger person. Looking back, that is one of the most positive outcomes from my situation.
Take care!!!!

mcmIV

Sep. 20, 2005, 12:31 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Pacificsolo, I appreciate your kind words and I greatly respect your opinion; but please understand, I very strongly disagree with your fundamental premise… so much so that I think it is destructive of any useful human dynamic I would ever endorse or advocate.

Vows are words, often spoken with sincerity in the moment. I can vow to kill someone; I can vow to stay married forever to one person; I can vow to make healthy choices in life.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just wanted to say... this is the point entirely... do not make a vow that you are not willign to keep! If you do not *really* mean to kill someone, why would you promise to do it?!

Kudos to DJ and PacificSolo and the other handful of people who are outspoken about marriage vows.

No one (no one!) has said that the OP or anyone else should stay in a marriage that the other partner has quit and ended.

As long as you both have even the tiniest amount of willingness to work it out... it is your duty to do so! If you don't want to find yourself in that difficult position, than don't get married - it's no different than not having children! So many have said "I don't want kids because they are a lifetime committment above and beyond my own life." This is true! And a marriage vow is not that much different - it is a lifetime committment, sometimes a compromise.

It's not about religion. It's about promises and trust. If you *know* your partner will be there through thick and thin, when you get a little "crazy" or a little fat or a little unreasonable.... it sure makes for a much more committed, loving, close marriage.

The OP's husband could ahve very well realized he wants kids. Or maybe he truly thinks he does because he feels it might mend the hurt inside himself that he is uncovering as he goes through his feelings. He could very well realize in a day or a month or a year "WHAT AM I THINKING???" and say to her "thank you SO MUCH for being supportive and strong for me..."

People get crazy. Every one of us has been unreasonable about a topic, an issue, a situation... maybe for a long period of time. That does not mean we are "bastards" or "scum sucking liars".

My only point is - I'm an advocate for sticking it out until *he* insists it's over. Understanding he may be unreasonable right now, but this sounds like an awfully tough time for him and you and the relationship.

This is a link that I've personally found very meaningful. Lessons from lasting marriages: http://mentalhelp.net/psyhelp/chap10/chap10l.htm#c
martha

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"

Sep. 20, 2005, 12:39 PM

Lost - so glad our support has helped.

Listen to your gut. You will need to be at peace with whatever you decide, and only you can know what that is and when it will happen.

Anne FS

Sep. 20, 2005, 01:26 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cartier:

Vows are words, often spoken with sincerity in the moment.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
----

Essentially if we break a “vow” our word can never be trusted. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

YES.

By it's very definition, a vow is "an earnest promise or pledge THAT BINDS ONE...."

They are not by ANY means something to be spoken 'in the moment' and then chucked away. Aarrgghh. The word 'vow' has a very specific meaning, and if you don't mean it, don't take a vow. I'm not talking about marriage exclusively - yes, in lost's case things changed, and she's trying to work it out, but Cartier, if you VOW to me that you will honor a business deal and then you break that vow and do what you promised (vowed) you would not, yes, that means your word can never be trusted.

A vow by definition is a solemn promise and NOT something you 'for the moment.'

Sheesh.

Sandy M

Sep. 20, 2005, 02:40 PM

As a single, never married, don't EVER want kids person... I really can't comment from any position of experience, so I won't.

However, and forgive me if someone has addressed this, since I haven't read all 12 pages, - but someone suggested getting lost's husband involved with Boy Scouts/Big Brothers and someone else said, something like, oh, don't do that, he might be gay!

PLEASE>>>>>> "gay" does NOT mean "pedophile" and I think it is highly insulting to suggest that.

lep

Sep. 20, 2005, 08:22 PM

I haven't read all this thread, but the title jumped out at me. I've been with my boyfriend for over 5 years, and he's "pretty sure" he wants kids, and I KNOW that I do not. Sometimes I think I should jump ship and find someone else who definitely doesn't want kids, or just be single, but I do love him. When we fight the topic rears its ugly head, and even when we're getting along, I feel that the issue is lurking.

Anyway, I don't have much advice, but I do know a few happily childfree married couples. There is a bulletin board for the childfree that I lurk, and occasionally post on....there are quite a few on there that had marriages break up over the kid issue, but I think every one of them will say they're better off now. If you want the website/bulletin board, PT me.

myrna

Sep. 20, 2005, 10:00 PM

I haven't read all of the replies.I do know that i never really thought about having children,but 3 kids later and a nasty divorce i would not have been without them.they are wonderful (at times) they are also on their own and self supporting now.my husband and i have 6 children between us.i love them all.now it's time for me and my mare.dressage here we come!!!!!!!

Hazelnut

Sep. 22, 2005, 03:23 AM

From reading your original post it sounds like your husband wants out of the marriage and is too chicken to say that up front. You can only compromise if both of you are willing. Sounds like he's placing the stakes at a level he knows you can't accept. Be honest, handle yourself with class, and use your support system to get through this.

Take care of yourself!

Declaring

Sep. 22, 2005, 04:43 AM

I hope things work out either way, and we won't judge whatever decision is made so please keep us updated. Good luck to you.

Cartier

Sep. 22, 2005, 04:52 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">YES.

By it's very definition, a vow is "an earnest promise or pledge THAT BINDS ONE...."

They are not by ANY means something to be spoken 'in the moment' and then chucked away. Aarrgghh. The word 'vow' has a very specific meaning, and if you don't mean it, don't take a vow. I'm not talking about marriage exclusively - yes, in lost's case things changed, and she's trying to work it out, but Cartier, if you VOW to me that you will honor a business deal and then you break that vow and do what you promised (vowed) you would not, yes, that means your word can never be trusted.

A vow by definition is a solemn promise and NOT something you 'for the moment.' </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think I understand what you are saying, and I agree to a point. Setting the dictionary and societal conventions aside, I do not agree that a vow can never be retracted. For example, I would certainly like that any enemy of our country who has taken a religious vow to destroy the USA comes to see that such a vow (how ever solemn), should be rescinded. And, like many personal aspects of our lives, a marital vow is essentially grounded in realities that are private. It is not for outsiders to judge. Only the person in the marriage can know if the vow should be kept or broken. I think that our emotional and physical health and well-being trump sticking to a vow. And breaking a vow does not mean that the person who breaks a vow can not ever again be trusted. We go through this life once… there is no value in living as a martyr.

fargo

Oct. 5, 2005, 02:27 AM

Bump!!Can we have an update on how you're doing? Any progress or any new developments? Hope you're doing fine!

Feenikks

Oct. 5, 2005, 06:48 AM

I read just some of the thread.

Lost: If you are not happy, then leave... just leave. Love comes and yes, if forced, it does go.. but that does not mean there is no more love out there waiting.

I don't think people should scarifice and be unhappy with someone or base their decisions on someone elses thoughts. We only have one Life make of it what you can, but most of all ... be happy.

Here is a little story.

A great friend of mine met a guy, married him in a year, HE wanted a baby, not her but now they have a 2 month old child. The "dad" is always out playing poker with his friends, or going to concerts.. while Mom is at home 24/7 caring for the baby. Just a mess and I feel sorry for my friend but she is so under the "influence" of the husband that whatever he wants he gets..

Jaegermonster

Oct. 5, 2005, 11:08 AM

Anybody heard from Lost? Whatssup girl?

Maggie G

Oct. 5, 2005, 12:45 PM

I never wanted children, I was severly abused growing up and could not imagine having a child go though what I went through, 3 children later I could not imagine my life without them, my husband is not into horses and that can and does make things harder but we are making it, we also work together doing horses for a living, just to complicate things even more. Yes I have had to give certain things up but anything that is worth anything has sacrifices.
I love my horses very much, my husband does not understand the healing aspect that they have to offer, even thow I dont get to ride very often,just being around them brings me great peace and senerity. I guess you could say that you just need to find a balance, things can and do work if you both really want them to.

lost

Oct. 5, 2005, 06:00 PM

Hi guys,

Well, We went to see a new counsellor at the beginning of last week. She suggested a trial separation of 3-4 months. She also pegged him and stated some very blunt opinions of what he has been doing, which helped me realize I am not going insane. She thinks he has checked out due to being overwhelmed with a lot of stresses right now and that the child issue is a smoke screen.

Even though he didn't want to move out, I held my ground (I didn't ask for this) and so he moves out this saturday. Immediately following the session, he was checked out completely for about 4 days. However, I realized that once he moves out and we have no more contact in this "trial divorce" that there can be no regrets so I spent some time instigating conversation. We have been doing a lot of talking since then. He is adamant about wanting kids, and now, moving back to the state that he is from (across the country), the one he supposedly "never wanted to live in again" when we first got together.

I have insisted that our finances be divided completely evenly. I will not support him any more.

Counsellor says she is cautiously optimistic that he may just snap out of it one day....and realize he is ruining his life. But that I also will, at some point, get sick of putting up with this. I don't know why I have for so long already..I guess because it is a marriage and I love the person I thought he was.

You guys on COTH and all my horsey friends are the only reasons I feel I have gotten through this in one piece thus far. (My first day off in the few months since I started my new job was hard to come by..finally got it last week. Broke down not once, but TWICE on my way to a lesson..never made it to the lesson. Don't feel like I needed that kick in the head right now!) I have seen the counsellor once alone and will again tomorrow. Am going to see her at least once a week for a while. He has also scheduled time with her. She said I have some unresolved issues but that, in general, I am pretty balanced...also nice to hear.

Anyway, I thank you all so much for every bit of input. Would love to have more. It helps me look through the tears.

fullmoon fever

Oct. 5, 2005, 06:11 PM

Glad to hear from you, lost.

Sounds like things are progressing; maybe not in the way that you had hoped, but better than staying in a rut. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

(Someone's signature says something about the difference between a rut and a grave is the depth.)

Oct. 5, 2005, 07:43 PM

{{{{{Lost}}}}}}

mcmIV

Oct. 5, 2005, 07:51 PM

You sound very strong and positive and balanced to me, too! Best of luck and stregnth to you... I hope you can both get through this the better for it.

martha

stfatpony

Oct. 5, 2005, 08:04 PM

Lost, you deserve lots of hugs for how well you are keeping it together. I hope that I never find myself in your position, but if I do, I hope I handle myself as admirably as you have been.

Good luck and glad to hear that you are sounding better about yourself!

CosmosMariner

Oct. 5, 2005, 08:56 PM

I confess to not having read all of the replies so if this is a duplicate please ignore. Your body is your own. If you do not want biological children at this time or at any time then that is your decsion. That choice did come with a price but you must make up your mind about what is best for both you and your body. He should not be pressuring you into something that he wants that will make you spend 9 months carrying a child you do not want. That is unfair. It will make you resent the child. I do wonder if it is that you do not want children with him or want children at this time. That was my friends situation. She was very anti-kids but once the marriage ended over that issue she met a great guy and spent a few wonderful years with him before wanting a little one. It was right for her with the new husband and at that time. People want different things at different times of their lives. You may never ever want kids and that is OK. I think it is awesome how strong you are in your beliefs not to just give in to the pressure. I wish you the best.

arabhorse2

Oct. 6, 2005, 04:09 AM

Lost, I've been following your story and read each and every last page. You've gotten some great advice, and some well deserved pats.

Never understood why someone who feels they need to make a comment wouldn't take the time to read what everyone else has written. Helps put things in perspective.

In any case, I can only offer support, sympathy, and prayers. I have no advice to give, other than the fact that I've been in a relationship with a man similar to your husband. At least yours was willing to go to counseling. Mine determined that the problems all stemmed from me, and if I wouldn't change my wicked, selfish ways, then we'd have to part. It hurt, because I really loved that man, or as you said, the man I thought he was.

Once I was away from the situation, I realized that I liked who I was, and determined that his problems were HIS, and not mine to bear.

And Fullmoon, that sig you like is mine. Always been a favorite saying, and a reminder that it's easy to get stuck.

Good luck, Lost. You have a lot of folks pulling for you.

ESG

Oct. 6, 2005, 04:44 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ThirdCharm:
Although it is SLIGHTLY possible that Mr. Lost has undergone some sort of deep revelation about fatherhood through therapy, that seems unlikely since he's not willing to help out with the caregiver bit..... more likely his motivations are such that if Lost capitulates she'll end up not ONLY divorced, but divorced with a kid to raise on perpetually delinquent child-support payments....

Either he always wanted kids.... in which case he is a lying scumbag.....

Or, he doesn't really want kids, but knows this is a deal-breaker that will cause Lost to call it quits, absolving him of blame while painting her as an 'unnatural, non-maternal woman' to his friends and associates.....so he can go guilt-free to his girlfriend/next wife who is already more than likely waiting in the wings....

Or, he really does THINK he wants a kid, but only as a symbol of his youth/virility/immortality (since he clearly doesn't want to be responsible for raising it, just wants to trot it out on occassions sounds like)... in which case a Sweet Young Thing named Bambi is probably in the offing (I love the scene in Moonstruck "No matter who you sleep with, you're still gonna die" (to paraphrase, haven't seen it in a while)).

While I agree that vows should be taken seriously.... it seems the OP is the only one who is in this situation! "love honor and cherish" clearly mean diddly squat to Mr. Lost.... and it seems the only thing Lost can do to single-handedly salvage their vows is to cave and have a kid she really doesn't want.... give up her hobbies, career, etc to be the primary caregiver.....

Mr. Thirdcharm occassionally will make noises about having a kid..... and I always remind him that when we got married, I told him I don't have a single maternal bone in my body, I don't really like kids a whole lot, I have a career which I love, but if he really wants a kid that's fine if he does HALF the caretaking. Compromise on both our parts. He agrees that is fair, and fortunately http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif he doesn't want kids as much as he wants freedom to work 12 hour days and hang out with his buddies on weekends.

Jennifer </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">Wise words. I couldn't agree more. Lost, jingling that you will find the happiness you deserve, now that Mr. Lost isn't around to cloud the picture. Yes, I know the separation is temporary, but distance often helps one make decisions one knows to be right. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

You're in my thoughts and prayers. Huge jingles and hugs from someone who's been down the road you're traveling, and come out whole on the other side. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sadsmile.gif</span>

ESG

Oct. 6, 2005, 04:57 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carolprudm:
It won't work because you won't be able to play the part he is expecting. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_GREEN">Exactly. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

You can't fix this, because it isn't yours to fix - it's your husband's. IME, it's always the other party's shortcomings that are threatening the relationship. Yours happens to be the child issue; mine was that I didn't want to continue the military lifestyle my ex swore we were leaving, then changed his mind. In both cases, it's one spouse wanting something from the other that she can't provide - a solution for his problems/issues/depression. This is a no-win situation for the spouse, and the best thing to do is to part. You'll be amazed at how much better you feel without him around, dooming and glooming. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </span>

Inyureye

Oct. 6, 2005, 05:13 AM

Gosh, think of it this way. If he does really want kids, why deprive him. I would give him what he says he longs for - freedom to find a chicky who wants kids. Go. Be Free, little man. I am sure you'll be happier. Then leave it up to him, if that's what he really wants.

Free, I am sure you are doing well. As time goes by and you let go, he'll be in a position to own this mess himself and assume the consequences. Meanwhile, buy another horse! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ESG

Oct. 6, 2005, 05:23 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by The Pie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lost:
I have confronted him a few times....want to know where he is and look at his cell bill. He has been completely up front offering everything but he says he doesn't know why he pulled away...and that he is just numb to everything right now. To your loving supportive wife???? So, suspicions are another woman...wanting out and finding a way to force me out...??? these things he denies. I asked him to move out last week for a separation. He said he didn't want it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

First of all, I'm very sorry. Speaking from experience, just because he SAYS there isn't another women doesn't make it so. Perhaps you should be happy that you DON'T have children, divorcing is that much more complicated with kids. If he's changed, he's changed, you may have lost him already. Sorry for being so blunt, but I speak from a great deal of experience in this area.... all the signs appear to be there from what you've posted. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

JMO, but I think he's "been completely up front and offering everything" because he has something else (another cell phone, perhaps?) that he knows you don't know about. I'd be willing to bet that there's another woman waiting in the wings somewhere. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

carolprudm

Oct. 6, 2005, 05:36 AM

It sounds like you have things as much under control as they can be.
Do you think there are religious/cultural issues that have come into play?

fargo

Oct. 6, 2005, 05:49 AM

I am proud of how well you handled it so far. I'm glad you're both seeing this new counceler and that he seems to break through the walls and sees through the smoke screens. I think that's the only way to get through this and get results, whatever way that may turn out. I hope it turns out the way you want it to.

ESG

Oct. 6, 2005, 06:01 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by pacificsolo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It's not about religion. It's about promises and trust. If you *know* your partner will be there through thick and thin, when you get a little "crazy" or a little fat or a little unreasonable.... it sure makes for a much more committed, loving, close marriage </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed!! It is this commitment that makes being human "safe" in marriage. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A nice thought, but quite unrealistic. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

There is no "safe" relationship on the planet. I can trust and believe that my husband loves me as he says he does and will never leave, but I know the reality is that it could happen. I do everything I can to forestall this by letting him know daily that I love and appreciate him. But despite my best efforts, I know that may not be enough. Why? Because I can only control my own actions, not his. And if he decides that he's had enough of me/us/life in general, there's nothing I can do to stop it.

JMO. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

arabhorse2

Oct. 6, 2005, 06:09 AM

ESG, very good points. We can't control anyone's actions except our own.

And it's been my experience that men always have somewhere and someone else to go to, by the time they've decided to leave.

I think Lost caught her husband off guard by telling him to leave earlier than perhaps he had planned. Speculation of course, but everything unfortunately points to someone else in this little scenario.

KimPeterson

Oct. 6, 2005, 06:13 AM

I hope you are holding up well, I have no advice stories of a past fiance yes..but no real advice that could help you through this time in your life other than of my friends (4 of them) that did get a divorce they are all doing better now than they where in their marriage, happier, - although they went through a brief period of anxiety over it...

ESG

Oct. 6, 2005, 06:48 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by arabhorse2:
ESG, very good points. We can't control anyone's actions except our own.

And it's been my experience that men always have somewhere and someone else to go to, by the time they've decided to leave.

I think Lost caught her husband off guard by telling him to leave earlier than perhaps he had planned. Speculation of course, but everything unfortunately points to someone else in this little scenario. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right back atcha - excellent points, all. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Sansena

Oct. 6, 2005, 11:36 AM

Lost;

I have never been married, though I am engaged to be very soon. It's been a long road to find the right one... especially, since I, like yourself don't want children.

I've read through most of the posts here, and want you to take my opinion with a grain of salt.. afterall, I've never been married. But, having said that, your hubby sounds to me like a real stinker. You are a strong, supportive woman with a tangible sense of self when you entered this marriage. From what I"ve read, you have been willing to compromise on several important issues.

This fella has done a 180 on kids and where he'd like to live, among other things I haven't caught in skimming through.

Sounds like a super manipulative co-dependent guy I was engaged to once. He claims he was drawn to me because I knew my own mind and had such a strong sense of independence. Little by little he asked for 'compromises' until I (nearly) forgot who I was.

Guess what? He dumped me 2 years into the relationship because "I wasn't as strong as I used to be"... which of course was just code for "I met someone else".

Deep meditation on what YOU want is the key to eventual happiness. It's important to compromise in relationships, but not to the point of resenting your partner.

Something tells me that this is going to turn out just fine for you in the long run... You sound like a fair, loving, compassionate woman. If the man can't see what' he's got right now then he deserves to lose it.

And you deserve better.

lost

Oct. 6, 2005, 07:02 PM

Thanks everyone so much for your support and jingles! Hopefully things will get better soon. A good horsey friend is allowing my gelding and me to invade her farm for the weekendhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif and I am truly thankful! (gotta leave the house but want to ride!)

Pandarus33

Oct. 6, 2005, 07:49 PM

Jingles for you from a two time divorcee. Find your happiness first and the rest will fall into place. Good luck!

Mother: You have to kiss a lot of frogs to find a prince. Look at your father and me.
Daughter: So, mom, guess you never found that prince, did you?

CHJoker

Oct. 7, 2005, 05:57 AM

It will get better!! you can get through this, and you will be stronger for it. Things have a funny way of working out... and just think about how many times in our lives the worst possible scenarios opened the door for truly wonderful things to happen.

If a man(or woman) doesn't want to be in a marriage, there isn't much the other person can do, unfortunately. I personally think the best strategy is make sure you have made your decisions with your heart, and then follow what makes you truly happy and fills you with joy. It is easier to forgive that way too (after all, if he really wants kids, another woman, a mom, whatever, why not let him go?? You don't want those things, and you can't help him in his dreams)... bitterness does nothing but ruin your karma http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif It hurts, but it will get better.

Good luck!

Scootie

Oct. 7, 2005, 07:43 AM

Lost, I'm so glad you finally found a counselor who is taking a more objective approach to the situation and offering you the support you need.

And while this "trial divorce" may well prompt him to reconsider his position, if you don't feel like resuming the relationship at that point, go with your instincts.

He has already showed his capacity for being manipulative and he has already put you through too much that you don't deserve. It would take a long time to ascertain if he has in fact changed his attitude and behavior. Only you know what your tolerance for disappointment would be.

If you do decide to end the marriage, here's hoping your next "frog" really turns into a genuine prince and not a "toad" in disguise. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

CHJoker

Oct. 7, 2005, 01:14 PM

Oh, and one other thing....I re-read the title of your post, and it occurred to me... you didn't actually lose your marriage because of a lack of desire for children.

You lost your marriage because your partner decided to leave you. Don't let him put the guilt for this on your shoulders, saying that it is because of the horses and the kids (or lack thereof). I can almost guarantee you that it has nothing to do with children or horses per say, and everything to do with your husband's own private issues, that he may or may not share with you, and sadly, have probably been around for quite some time.

Well, in any case, good luck! I think many of us have been in your boat at some time in our lives.

TeddyToo

Oct. 7, 2005, 02:23 PM

Been following the thread, and just want to say, you are a strong woman! It's difficult to watch a marriage go downhill, and see the person you thought you knew change almost overnight.

I'm glad you found a counselor who can see this from an objective point of view. Sounds like the first one you two visited was a bit blind to what was really going on.

I've been married two years, and have found the "children" issue to be the most difficult to deal with. I think my hubby and I discussed everything before we got married, except what would happen if biological children were not an option. I think we both naively assumed we'd have them.

Now we're at that point. He wants biological children, or none at all. I don't want to continue being a human science experiment, but can't see going through life and not being a parent. I'd happily adopt. For him, its not an option. Will it be the end of us? I'm not sure, I certainly hope not. But who should compromise?

Now, I can understand how and why marriages end... things come up, life throws things at us, and people change.

It stinks being a woman, having to juggle careers, marriages, households, children, etc. All I can say is enjoy your horses, friends, and family. There's nowhere to go but up from here.

Bogie

Oct. 7, 2005, 02:48 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lost:
He is adamant about wanting kids, and now, moving back to the state that he is from (across the country), the one he supposedly "never wanted to live in again" when we first got together.

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My husband used to "threaten" that he was just going to move out west and simplify his life, because he was too stressed out living with me and the kids. We went to a therapist for awhile who told him (finally!) to stop threatening me. He told me that the next time he said this, I should say, "Send me a postcard." That he was venting to make himself feel better by making me feel bad.

It sure made me feel better http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. No, he didn't move out west. Yes, we're still married.

Good luck! I hope that a bit of time apart helps you decide what the right thing for you will be.