Vet is stumped! Any ideas???

[HanLady]

I've posted about my gelding before, we were sure we were dealing with a serious bout of ulcers. I treated him with gastro guard, no luck, no changes. Before going with gastro guard, he was on Legacy by Nutrena and Neigh-lox. Then we tried the cimetidine. Vet came out and ran a series of blood tests, complete exam and all is normal, except for the fact that he's loosing a ton of weight and will not eat. I've done B-12, Lysine, and now he's getting a 10cc shot of Equipoise every 3 weeks. I had changed his diet to just hay and beet pulp, he will not eat the beet pulp, even with a bit of bran in it. He will not eat soaked alfalfa. I'd been putting carrots and apples in a blender and adding that to beet pulp and/or alfalfa to make it more appealing to him, he will NOT eat! He's eating a bit more hay than he had been, but certainly not enough to even maintain the scrawny weight he's at, never mind gain any back. He seemed to like the bran mash, but I don't want to give him too much of it when he's not getting enough calcium to keep things normal, so we are trying the Nutrena Senior, I've tried it dry and he won't eat it, I've tried it soaked and he won't eat it. We're stumped and can't find the reason why he'd quit eating like he has. Anyone have a suggestion? either as to why this may be happening, or something to get into his system so he eats?

[HanLady]

I've posted about my gelding before, we were sure we were dealing with a serious bout of ulcers. I treated him with gastro guard, no luck, no changes. Before going with gastro guard, he was on Legacy by Nutrena and Neigh-lox. Then we tried the cimetidine. Vet came out and ran a series of blood tests, complete exam and all is normal, except for the fact that he's loosing a ton of weight and will not eat. I've done B-12, Lysine, and now he's getting a 10cc shot of Equipoise every 3 weeks. I had changed his diet to just hay and beet pulp, he will not eat the beet pulp, even with a bit of bran in it. He will not eat soaked alfalfa. I'd been putting carrots and apples in a blender and adding that to beet pulp and/or alfalfa to make it more appealing to him, he will NOT eat! He's eating a bit more hay than he had been, but certainly not enough to even maintain the scrawny weight he's at, never mind gain any back. He seemed to like the bran mash, but I don't want to give him too much of it when he's not getting enough calcium to keep things normal, so we are trying the Nutrena Senior, I've tried it dry and he won't eat it, I've tried it soaked and he won't eat it. We're stumped and can't find the reason why he'd quit eating like he has. Anyone have a suggestion? either as to why this may be happening, or something to get into his system so he eats?

[HanLady]

Forgot to add... his exam included his mouth and teeth, not only by the vet but also by an equine dentist... he had a rectal exam too. Vet said no need to scope if gastro guard didn't work, stomach tap was also done and we found nothing out of the ordinary.

[Eclectic Horseman]

Try some probiotics to get his intestinal bacteria flourishing. You can get them in a paste like a wormer. A probiotic sometimes will stimulate the appetite.

[julie710]

I second the probios, you can get them in feed stores. When was the last time he was wormed and was he checked for worms from his stoles? What is his heart rate and I take it since the vets were examining his mouth they check his gums? I like bran oil added for weight gain. He might like that. If he continues not to eat then he might need IV fluids for nutrition. Does he drink water?

[Posting Trot]

I would try a Panacur powerpack on him (check with your vet to make sure it's okay). And I'd give him lots of whatever he will eat. Does he clean up his hay? If he does, find the best-quality hay you can and give it to him free choice. If he'll eat a little bit of grain, or some pelleted vit-min supplement, I'd give him that too. Giving him a probiotic is a good idea, my favorite is RationPlus (actually a prebiotic). (The website is www.rationplus.com (http://www.rationplus.com) ).

If he won't eat the Legacy, try him on something else. I"ve heard of a number of horses that, over time, begin to refuse Legacy. Try giving him a pelleted feed, maybe wet down a bit with warm water. You might add a splash (a quarter-cup or so) of oil (a lot of horses like coco-soya oil from Uckele, or just some corn oil or canola oil), just to increase the calories he's getting.

There may well be something systemic going on that is underlying the problem; but, from your description, it sounds as though the most immediate problem right now is the weight-loss and the refusal to eat. So, getting calories into him is the first priority.

[cloverlone]

I second the possibility of Panacure power pack; but be careful. Not eating is woorisome time to hit them with this. I have spread out doses over 10 days rather than charging them with so much at once. The OLD way to do panacure was 5 days double dose. The power pack is 5 days x10 dose. So I start at a double dose and wean up to a full does then wean back down so as not to shock the system too hard. This IS NOT FOLLOWING directions on the box.

Everybody will laugh here, but a horse phsycic came here to a big farm and was truly AMAZING! She has cured many upset horses. One had a headache from the pop machin; turned out to have a short and may have burned the barn down; another lost it's best friend (paddock mate) and picked his new mate (many had been tried with no acceptance) Another picked out a person he wanted to live with. That person had left a year prior to the reading and this lady knew nothing of her yet was able to describe her!!!

I'll have to look her up, but if you are truly desperate and this horse's health is in jeapordy??? ... I'd do it.

[HanLady]

Yes, his gums were checked. After the GG we really thought we'd find a problem with a tooth or something like a twig lodged in his throat, but nothing. There was nothing wrong with him what so ever! It's a royal pain!

He's been wormed, our last wormer was Safeguard, I prefer over Pancur. He's been UTD on a deworming schedule, I use a schedule given to me by my vet for him.

I did take him off the legacy, he is now on the Nutrena Senior. It's pelleted, and can be fed soaked. I try both frequently thru out the day. I go and try to feed him about every 2 hours, more or less pending on what he'll eat and when.

He'll eat hay better than he has over the last weeks, but he's such a jerk about it! If there is any left in his stall in the morning (and there usually is) he won't touch it. I've tried leaving it for when he comes in later, but it's sat there all day and he won't touch it. So I throw it outside for him, he won't eat it then either. I throw him a fresh flake and he'll eat it till it's almost gone then walk away, he won't touch it again at all, no matter how long it sits there, he won't touch it. It's quite frustrating. He gets free choice hay. I throw a flake at a time, but he doesn't go for any length of time with out hay to eat.

It's just really strange, my vet is stumped, both of them actually. Neither has any suggestions on what to do next. The stomach tap was the last test we could do and that was normal. So, we're now on the Equipoise and with out success.


Yes, calories into him is my main goal at this point, more so because he's loosing weight and because we've come to the conclusion that there isn't anything "wrong" with him health wise to make him loose his appetite.

[toowoomba2]

There's a horse at my barn with the same problem and the owner hasn't figured out how to get weight on her finicky eater either. Keeps turning his nose up at T&A, but will eat coastal hay. Be REALLY CAREFUL on changing things though, because this poor gelding at our barn suffered a severe case of colic over the weekend because he was loaded up on alfalfa hay after not being on it for a year. Poor thing , vet and owner were considering putting him down but he pulled through. Now he looks even thinner.

Whatever you try, keep it gradual.

[HanLady]

I agree 100%!! Yes, my goal is to get food into him, but I haven't made a ton of changes, not to things he wasn't use to. When I changed him to the Senior feed I'd only give him a handful with his handful of legacy, I did it gradual. Not that it mattered too much, he won't eat it anyway. I think he eats about 1/2 pound of the grain a day. That's it! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[In the Air]

Is he drinking? If not perhaps he needs to be rehydrated to stimulate his appetite.

[luv2jump]

Scoping his stomach may reveal something other than ulcers- like a tumor?? How old is he?
Luv2Jump

[furlong47]

How old is this gelding? I don't want to worry you too much but sometimes if a horse is older, they stop eating and drinking simply because they know their time is coming and they are trying to tell you. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif My friend just had to put her horse down, and it was the same way -- he suddenly stopped eating and drinking, he lost a ton of weight, the vet examined him and ran blood tests and nothing was found. He was laying down a lot and just getting weaker and weaker. Senior feed was changed, he was wormed for everything including tapeworms, had his teeth done only a few months ago, and she tried everything to get nourishment into him. Finally last Tuesday he went down in the field and would not get up. Alec was 28 and he had a good life... he was just letting his mom know it was time to go.

[birdbrain]

I agree with Luv2jump- have him scoped ASAP! I knew a horse who stopped eating, had been on gastrogard (no help), was losing weight, etc. Gastroscopy showed that the horse had serious stomach cancer. I do not want to scare you, but the vet originally did not want to scope the horse and then when he finally did- he couldn't believe it.

[toowoomba2]

When/if you find a solution, could you PT me? I don't know if the horse at my barn has the same problem as yours, but it might be helpful.

He was never the same after the hurricanes this summer, then he had a sinus infection that required surgery last month, and now this. I feel bad for his owner too - she's doing the best she can w/o going into debt.

He's always been a hard keeper though.

[Vandy]

I wish I had better ideas/advice, but I agree that getting some calories into him is crucial. Do you have a feed store/feed rep that can get you sample-sizes of various feeds for a "taste test"? (I wouldn't think that having a handful of a variety of feeds would be too much on his system but of course I'd be careful.) The ones I have who are picky eaters all love Nutrena XTN.

[Kota]

I know of many horses that enjoy Buckeye's Ultimate Finish, it smells really sweet kind of like cookies. You can read more about it here: Ultimate Finish (http://www.buckeyenutrition.com/equine/UltimateFinish.htm).

Also, a probiotic would help him utilize the feed he is eating. I've used Missing Link with success. Also, apples are kind of acidic so that may further upset his stomach, fyi.

[Oldenburg Mom]

How about going back to just plain old oats?

[Eclectic Horseman]

Wait a minute. I came back to this thread because my memory was ringing bells. I remember a case like this that my local vet handled. The horse was DOWN when he was called in on the case (previous vets having been stumped.) It turned out that the horse had had it's teeth floated several weeks prior, and the rasp had knicked the roof of the horse's mouth. The wound healed, but then abcessed.

When my local vet got on the scene the horse was so weak that it had gone down and wouldn't get up. It may have been his luck that from that position when he examined the horse's mouth, he could see the angry bump on the horse's palate.

Obviously, the abcess was lanced, the horse was put on antibiotics, and there was a happy ending.

Your case sounds so similar I thought that I would relay this story to you.

[VAhorsevet]

Assuming as many have suggested that there really is no problem in mouth teeeth gums or back of throat that is causing him pain. There is also a high fat supplement called "Quick Start" that will help get more calories in to these types horses that are otherwise not eating. Might try it!

[DMK]

I second (or third) scoping him - who's to say he doesn't have a mild obstruction/inflammation/something in the throat? It doesn't sound likely, but on the other hand, equipoise is seriously good at stimulating appetite, so something else has to be going on...

toowomba - has your friend's vet rule out a gutteral pouch infection?

[Posting Trot]

The reason I suggested a Panacur Powerpak (double-dose of panacur over 5 consecutive days) is that it targets encysted small strongyles. Strongid will *not* killed encysted strongyles. The only other wormer that kills encysted strongyles is moxidectin (Quest), which might be too strong for your debilitated horse.

A horse with encysted strongyles will have acute gastric distress as the strongyles begin to emerge from their cysts in late winter or early spring. The horse might look as though it's colicking, or just begin to lose weight rapidly. Look at this link: http://www.ivis.org/advances/Parasit_Bowman/monahan_equine/chapter_frm.asp and scroll down to the section on Larval Cyatostomosis (encysted strongyles).

[HanLady]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vandy:
Nutrena XTN. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He was on this up til spring time when he first started going off grain, that is when I did the U guard and then to neigh-lox and he'd been super up till about 6-7 weeks ago. I also did the legacy because of one of the nutritionist recommending it.

[HanLady]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by In the Air:
Is he drinking? If not perhaps he needs to be rehydrated to stimulate his appetite. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, he seems to be drinking fine. It's cold now so he's getting warm water. I'm a stay home mom, so I'm able to bring out warm water when ever needed.

[HanLady]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by luv2jump:
Scoping his stomach may reveal something other than ulcers- like a tumor?? How old is he?
Luv2Jump </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He is 18. According to my vet, the stomach tap would have shown any issues as far as tumors go. Is that not accurate??

[HanLady]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:
How about going back to just plain old oats? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Been there done that too... he won't eat 'em.

[HanLady]

I will for sure... if me going thru this with my Mc, and it helps someone else, then I'll be quite happy I can maybe help someone else when I couldn't help my own. It's quite sad, I've had this boy since he was 2.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by toowoomba2:
When/if you find a solution, could you PT me? I don't know if the horse at my barn has the same problem as yours, but it might be helpful.

He was never the same after the hurricanes this summer, then he had a sinus infection that required surgery last month, and now this. I feel bad for his owner too - she's doing the best she can w/o going into debt.

He's always been a hard keeper though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[HanLady]

He had a VERY thorough exam of the mouth. We really thought that is where we'd find the problem.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Eclectic Horseman:
Wait a minute. I came back to this thread because my memory was ringing bells. I remember a case like this that my local vet handled. The horse was DOWN when he was called in on the case (previous vets having been stumped.) It turned out that the horse had had it's teeth floated several weeks prior, and the rasp had knicked the roof of the horse's mouth. The wound healed, but then abcessed.

When my local vet got on the scene the horse was so weak that it had gone down and wouldn't get up. It may have been his luck that from that position when he examined the horse's mouth, he could see the angry bump on the horse's palate.

Obviously, the abcess was lanced, the horse was put on antibiotics, and there was a happy ending.

Your case sounds so similar I thought that I would relay this story to you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[HanLady]

About how long would the equipoise take to start working? Vet sent me 4 needles, told me to give him 10cc every 3 weeks.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DMK:
I second (or third) scoping him - who's to say he doesn't have a mild obstruction/inflammation/something in the throat? It doesn't sound likely, but on the other hand, equipoise is seriously good at stimulating appetite, so something else has to be going on...

toowomba - has your friend's vet rule out a gutteral pouch infection? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[draftdriver]

Try putting beer in his feed. Horses like the smell of it. (The only time I've ever bought beer in my life was to put in the feed of a picky TB http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif ).

[HanLady]

Definitely!! I really don't want to put all that poison into him right now, seriously, he couldn't take it! From what I've read and going by my vets, the safe guard ought to do the same as Pancur??

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Posting Trot:
The reason I suggested a Panacur Powerpak (double-dose of panacur over 5 consecutive days) is that it targets encysted small strongyles. Strongid will *not* killed encysted strongyles. The only other wormer that kills encysted strongyles is moxidectin (Quest), which might be too strong for your debilitated horse.

A horse with encysted strongyles will have acute gastric distress as the strongyles begin to emerge from their cysts in late winter or early spring. The horse might look as though it's colicking, or just begin to lose weight rapidly. Look at this link: http://www.ivis.org/advances/Parasit_Bowman/monahan_equine/chapter_frm.asp and scroll down to the section on Larval Cyatostomosis (encysted strongyles). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[HanLady]

LOL! Seriously?? I guess I shouldn't laugh... I had an "old time" farmer, one who raised drafts for pulling, suggest I put a teaspoon of ash in his feed daily. It's suppose to make them want to eat more?? I haven't done it yet. Suppose to use ash from hard wood.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by draftdriver:
Try putting beer in his feed. Horses like the smell of it. (The only time I've ever bought beer in my life was to put in the feed of a picky TB http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif ). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[BirdLady]

HanLady,

Don't know that this helps any, but my boyfriend used to give his racehorses their oats with a full pint of Guinness every day. It certainly won't hurt to try one on your boy and see whether or not he likes it.

Good luck...hope it all turns out all right in the end.

[draftdriver]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HanLady:
LOL! Seriously?? I guess I shouldn't laugh... I had an "old time" farmer, one who raised drafts for pulling, suggest I put a teaspoon of ash in his feed daily. It's suppose to make them want to eat more?? I haven't done it yet. Suppose to use ash from hard wood.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I haven't heard that one, but I have heard some real strange ones. Like saltpeter to "cure what ails them" and get the coat to shed out in the spring. I don't suggest you try these without some evidence that your horse has a particular mineral balance, though. (FYI: Ash from hardwood makes a great garden fertilizer, encouraging root growth.)

[DMK]

Han, it's been so many years since I have been around equipoise I wouldn't know how long it would take to kick in, but I would guess around a week to start to work. Also, be prepared for potential change in temperment. It's your basic anabolic steroid, and comes with all the joys of that topic.

From your post I gathered he had already been on it for some time, not starting it. Still, scoping would just rule out anything else in the stomach or throat, and that couldn't be a bad thing...

[Hexel]

Does he have a fever? Is he making ok manure inspite of poor food intake? Has he ever been double dosed with strongid for tape worms or have you used one of the wormers with praziquantel in it ? I have had experience with horses having low levels of gut pain with a tapeworm infestation.I understand not wanting to use chemicals. However maybe check with your vet to see if worming for tapes at this stage, would do no harm and may help. Tapes are not easily detected with fecals studies.

[Sing Mia Song]

Can you explain what you mean by a "stomach tap?" Do you mean a transtracheal wash?

Admittedly, I''m in small animal medicine, so I'm not totally familiar with a lot of the large animal procedures, but we generally don't tap the stomach. We tube them, for sure, or do a transtracheal or endotracheal wash, or tap the peritoneum, but not the stomach.

I'm going to go along and say "scope him." My old horse had the same symptoms and was helped slightly by the Gastrogard. When he colicked and was put down, we discovered he had a squamous cell carcinoma in his stomach.

[DMK]

Sing Mia Song, I assumed she was referring to the BIG needle they tap directly into the stomach in order to extract fluid. SOP for most admitted colics, best as I can tell. (Isay this because I swear every time I am at UGA they have some poor colic victim with a needle stuck in the bottom of his stomach) Or maybe that was just the peritoneum they were aiming for? Would make sense I suppose. But I always heard it referred to as a stomach tap (on the one occassion I paid attention, that is)

[HanLady]

He's due for the second injection on the 12th of March, so it hasn't been too long. I hope it starts working.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DMK:
Han, it's been so many years since I have been around equipoise I wouldn't know how long it would take to kick in, but I would guess around a week to start to work. Also, be prepared for potential change in temperment. It's your basic anabolic steroid, and comes with all the joys of that topic.

From your post I gathered he had already been on it for some time, not starting it. Still, scoping would just rule out anything else in the stomach or throat, and that couldn't be a bad thing... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[HanLady]

No temp at all. Yes, he was double dosed with Strongid, have to look back at dates ??? But that is a routine dewormer for us. His last wormer was safeguard the mid of January.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hexel:
Does he have a fever? Is he making ok manure inspite of poor food intake? Has he ever been double dosed with strongid for tape worms or have you used one of the wormers with praziquantel in it ? I have had experience with horses having low levels of gut pain with a tapeworm infestation.I understand not wanting to use chemicals. However maybe check with your vet to see if worming for tapes at this stage, would do no harm and may help. Tapes are not easily detected with fecals studies. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[HanLady]

The stomach tap was when we insert a GI-NORMOUS needle into his belly and drew fluid to have it tested. I was told it would test for any abnormalities, tumors being one of them.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sing Mia Song:
Can you explain what you mean by a "stomach tap?" Do you mean a transtracheal wash?

Admittedly, I''m in small animal medicine, so I'm not totally familiar with a lot of the large animal procedures, but we generally don't tap the stomach. We tube them, for sure, or do a transtracheal or endotracheal wash, or tap the peritoneum, but not the stomach.

I'm going to go along and say "scope him." My old horse had the same symptoms and was helped slightly by the Gastrogard. When he colicked and was put down, we discovered he had a squamous cell carcinoma in his stomach. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[HanLady]

Forgot to answer about pooping.. yes, he is still going normally. Or, as normal as he can with out the norm food intake. Part of his exam was also a rectal exam, he wanted to see if he may have tumors or abnormalities in the rectal tract.

As for wormers... I'll do the norm. But I didn't want to do a power pak or anything too strong in the condition he's in right now.

I've just ordered probios (the tube kind) I also ordered Red Cell. I'm not sure about it, but figured it can't hurt. He's certainly not getting enough vite's and min's from food, and it also mentioned stimulating appetite.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hexel:
Does he have a fever? Is he making ok manure inspite of poor food intake? Has he ever been double dosed with strongid for tape worms or have you used one of the wormers with praziquantel in it ? I have had experience with horses having low levels of gut pain with a tapeworm infestation.I understand not wanting to use chemicals. However maybe check with your vet to see if worming for tapes at this stage, would do no harm and may help. Tapes are not easily detected with fecals studies. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[HanLady]

I agree... I did put another call into my vet to update him on the equipoise not having effect as of yet and also asked him about scoping. He can't do the scope of the stomach, but can do the throat and esophogus. When we was last here for the stomach tap he also looked in his mouth again and had his hand right in his throat. When he pulled his hand out he smelled it, said that if he had an abscess or infection in his throat he'd be able to smell it?? He should be calling me back this evening...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DMK:
Han, it's been so many years since I have been around equipoise I wouldn't know how long it would take to kick in, but I would guess around a week to start to work. Also, be prepared for potential change in temperment. It's your basic anabolic steroid, and comes with all the joys of that topic.

From your post I gathered he had already been on it for some time, not starting it. Still, scoping would just rule out anything else in the stomach or throat, and that couldn't be a bad thing... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[DMK]

Han - if scoping is recommended, I thinkI would take him someplace you could scope the stomach as well - might as well once you are spending the money, right?

[Kyzteke]

Is there some reason you don't want to scope this horse?

If the tumor was somewhere other than the stomach, I doubt a "tap" would reveal anything. My bet is (unfortunatly) cancer or some object in the digestive tract.

Take him to some place that can scope him completely...I think in the long run that will be cheaper. It's no fair to just let him slowly starve to death.

Please let us know why they find.

[williamsknollfarm]

I just came onto COTH to see about doing a search for 'rapid weight loss' and noticed this posting. My vet just left and he is stumped too. I have 2 with this seemingly same thing. They both had a bout of diarrhea though within the past month and now ones poop is normal the other is like a firm cow pie. The youngest, 7 months is so thin now, she will pick at the hay and might take 2 bites of grain. She had an internal infection and was treated with SMZs less than a month ago and her older sister (the other one that is now sick) was turned out with her in the backyard during treatment. Now I have them both back in a young horse herd (4 total) and her older sister just started dropping weight and looking extremely gaunt. She is eating well. They were both wormed 2 days ago and 7 weeks before that. The vet still thinks maybe it could be worms and mentioned the panacur double dose for 10 days. He took blood. He looked at both of their teeth and went ahead and knocked off a couple of sharper points. He took stool samples. He took their temperatures and they are normal (when the baby had an internal infection before her temp was way elevated).

He doesn't know what it could be. I did searches all morning. We talked about ulcers, but he said the poop is usually dark. He said to buy Red Cell and give each 1 oz each day, squirt it in their mouths. Both are already on probiotics, and I have to mix one with warm water because the baby just won't eat anything.

I asked him about Ghardia (not sure how to spell it), because a friend said she knew of another lady whose gelding got that and had the same symptoms. The vet said it is a remote possibility but will check into what a test entails. He said the Red Cell should stimulate the appetite and help their intestines heal in order to begin functioning normally to pull the nutrients from the food. He said they need lots of sugars and high calorie foods. Problem being I would have to shoot whatever the baby needs into her mouth, since she isn't eating anything but a little bit of hay...

I certainly hope someone can figure out what is wrong. He said using the daily wormer following 1 dose of ivermectin is also a good way to treat the potential possibility of worms if you have a high infestation.

I hope your gelding gets better soon!

[Farside54]

Has there been any physical changes in this horse's environment? Loss of pasture buddy, stall neighbor, change in discipline, etc? Does he have any other pain issues, i.e., leg problems, muscle soreness, etc? Older horses can go off feed for reasons not associated with digestive system problems. I'd start expanding my investigation past the usual suspects...

[horsesourcetexas]

I know the Power Pac is terrifying! I am a chronic non-believer in most things but it has worked over and over in a number of different situations for me. The last one I used it on was a 36 year old walking skeleton that I rescued and I am sure he looked worse that your guy ever would(I can send pictures!). It kills things that NOTHING else will!

I have found that if they like warm bran mash and you begin to mix some pellets in with the mash, increasing gradually, they will usually pick back up. Just don't surprise him with it. Start with a little at a time 4 or 5 times a day. This is also an easy way to hide supplements, but again, take it easy on him. Try a little molasses added if he really still has no interest. Is his feeder high or on the ground? If he has any type of back pain, he may not want to stretch down to eat. Try raising his feeder to chest level height for him if it is lower. Same with hay...if you are feeding on the floor, try raising it up(hay net or in feeder). I have another rescue that will refuse to eat any hay that touches the ground! He just started doing this though so I just raised it and he consumes all.

The main thing to remember is be patient. I am not saying to ignore him and hope for the best, but changes won't happen over night and massive changes in his feeding back and forth will further upset his digestion. Get a plan and go with it. Try not to get discouraged too soon with anything but don't throw everything at him at once.

Good luck to you...it's a long hard road but he seems to have a caring and dedicated Mom to get him through!

[Tiramit]

This may be waaaaayyyy off the mark, but just to throw an idea out there for you. My family had an older horse years ago who started out with similar symptoms. After some time (with vets), he deteorated and started having diarrhea (despite an almost completely hay diet at that point). More tests, and finally he had a confirmed diagnosis of diabetes. Just something you may want to ask the vets about.

Good luck with him!

[Posting Trot]

I'm sorry, I really don't mean to harp on this, but a PowerPack may be a really good idea. Ask your vet. Diarrhea, being off the feed, gastric distress, etc. can be symptoms of encysted strongyles.. Strongid and ivermectin and daily wormers do not kill encysted strongyles. If your horse has not been wormed either with moxidectin or the Panacur Powerpack within the past year, there's a reasonable chance that the horse has encysted strongyles. Late winter and early spring are when the strongyles begin to emerge. A fecal count of the manure will not necessary pick up the encysted strongyles.

Last spring, a gelding (6 years old) at the barn where I board had persistent, low-level colic-like symptoms. He didn't shed out well, his coat was dull, he dropped weight, didn't eat well. Vet checked him for infections, etc., nothing turned up. Put the horse on daily wormer, and that actually made the symptoms somewhat worse. Doses of maalox made the symptoms somewhat better, but after a couple of hours the symptoms returned. The owner dosed him with a PowerPack and he really turned around.

[HanLady]

I'm going to try and respond to all the latest posts here... As for scoping, it's not that I don't want to have it done, I've been going by my vets advice and ruling things out one at a time. Treated for ulcers, nothing, did blood and exams, nothing, now equipoise, not so great... I agree, it's something we're going to have to do. He's strange, one day he'll eat well and the next next to nothing.

I also am starting to agree about the power pak, it's certainly worth a try.

We're trying to do everything we can before going to the extreem. But as we're going along, I wish we went to the extreem to start with (scope), it probably would have been less expensive in the end. No telling at this point. I've also been trying to follow the advice of my vet. After treating for ulcers he told me that we didn't need to scope, and the stomach tap would have shown tumors or other abnormalities. BUT, I am now getting the point that a stomach tap won't show issues elsewhere in his digestive system. At the point in time that we're doing the diagnostic stuff, you don't always think that your vet is wrong, or missing something, ya know??

Horsesourcetexas... thank you so much for the encouragement! Part of my problem is I'm scared to death for my boy and I'd love to see him gain 100 pounds overnight! wish it were possible! We've been doing things slowly. Because he won't eat much at a time, I go out and feed him every 2 hours. I'll either give him a warm bran mash mixed with the grain, or just mash, or just soaked grain, sometimes not soaked. But I'm not adding all sorts of NEW things to his diet. I think I posted earlier, I've even thrown carrots into a blender (so he can't just pick out carrots) and added that to the food.

Farside54, no, there haven't been any changes to his environment at all, not for 2 years now. One thing we've thought of is he may be homesick from my mothers property. He'd been at her place for 14 years, here for the last 2. He's spoiled rotten, just him and my mare, no new horses in or out. I'd been talking to someone else who's been going thru something similar and I guess the horse has Lyme. I've looked into it, but he has NO symptoms that would lead to that.

I did just order the red cell and probios, figured neither will hurt. As for this morning, he finished 2 pounds of his grain thru the night. At 10pm last night he still had about 1 pound of grain left, this morning it was gone. I gave him 1 pound this morning, he munched some, but he also ate about 5 flakes of hay thru the night, and I threw him another this morning. He's up and down like this, one day he'll eat very normally and the next nothing.

He's no colic symptoms at all. Trust me, I watch him like a hawk.

Kyzteke... I'm doing everything I can, I'm not just letting him starve to death. Please understand that I'm trying to follow the advice of my vet and go from there. When he said scope wasn't needed, I just trusted that. And yes, at this point... we will have him scoped. Not sure where, my vet is suppose to get it set up for me, he doesn't have a mobile unit so we've got quite the travel for it, but it will be done.

DMK, yes.. definitely. I wish I had done the scope to start with, it would have most likely been less money in the long run. My vet only has a scope to do the esophogus, not the stomach, so we're setting it up for me to bring him, probably Milton, VT (about 2 hours one way)

williamsknollfarm... please let me know how your 2 are doing. My boy never had a fever or diarrea, hasn't shown any signs of not feeling well what so ever, the ONLY thing he's done is stop eating. He still runs around playing with my mare as he always has, has had absolutely NO other signs of being sick. It's frustrating.

[Kyzteke]

HanLady -- believe me, I know you are doing everything...but vets can be wrong and they can miss things.

Personally, the vets I've worked with would never advise treating for ulcers (using GastroGuard) WITHOUT scoping!! With the treatment costing $750 per month, it would be foolish to spend that money without confirming the presence of ulcers! So that's what made me think the vet was off base somewhat.

The fact that you say he is running & playing makes me rethink the cancer thing...also I would think that a horse with a parasite load big enough to cause them to lose weight like that would also be rather lethargic...so it DOES sound puzzling.

But HanLady, an older horse like yours is fragile -- if it can possibly be managed, I would haul him to the nearest vet teaching hospital and have him tested.

williamsknollfarm -- your babies sound like they may have that "pig disease...." I keep forgetting the name of it. The symptoms sound similar.

[williamsknollfarm]

Kyzteke - Pig Disease... Did a search and came up with Vesicular Stomatitis. not it. The vet inspected the mouths, there are no blisters. If this isn't the one you were referring to let me know and I can do more internet searches.

Also this disease runs its course in about 2 weeks. I have been struggling on and off with the little one for a month. She ate better last night, I added sugar to her food. The blood work should come back today. They both also started the Red Cell. It may simply be parasite overload which should indicate (because I wormed on Saturday) that they should start looking better.

Thanks!

[HanLady]

One of my vets teaches at UVM on Tuesdays. I spoke to him last night and he was actually helping me get something scheduled in Milton, VT. Other than that, there isn't anyone else I can bring him to... Rochester Equine, but it's even further away. I'm still trying to locate someone with a portable unit. Someone on COTH gave me a website to someone in my NH that has one, I'm still looking into that too.

Yes, puzzling! As I said, other than not eating, he's as normal as normal gets.

[BasqueMom]

Hi,

Buckeye's Ultimate Finish is great stuff. All three of mine lost weight the first summer in TExas and we added it to their regular grain (Purina Senior).

Last spring, my oldster lost his appetitude even for his favorite things, was dropping weight, not shedding out. He has arthritis problems and tried a gram a bute morning and evening. A friend who has had many oldsters said controlling the pain is imperative in these cases. So figuring if his days were numbered, they were going to be comfortable.
Vet says that dose would kill some horses and others live on it for many years. So far so good. Started doing the beet bulp thing with a dash of mash thrown in to help balance the minerls along with his regular ration of senior and so far so good. And this year, he's already starting to shed. Last year, after he got his appetite back, shedded out, etc, his coat was as gorgeous as ever, dappled, etc.
He's pushing 30 so we're hoping for another good year for him.

Have you also thought about wetting his hay?
Do that when I get a batch of really dry coastal. He doesn't care much for coastal but that's the only grass I can here. In Colorado, he loved brome/orchard mixes and turned his nose up at mountain timothy (they all did).

Hope you find out what's going on soon and it's a happy ending!!!

[HanLady]

Can buckeye be ordered on line? I have no one in this area that carries buckeye products.

Someone also mentioned to me that Poulin now has a weight gain stuff that is suppose to be really super. I hadn't checked into yet.

[Underdog]

Whatever you find out, keep us posted please.

Also a suggestion...offer free choice minerals to supplement with. It could be that simple that he isn't getting the minerals he wants and needs, or even some herbs like camomile(sp?) and peppermint to settle his stomach.

Best of luck and again, let us know what you find out. :-)

[Jessi P]

HanLady, keep up the diligence, I know you must be disheartened and frustrated but we are all rooting for your fella!

Just a couple comments about Equipoise.. it can take up to a month for it to affect their appetite. We will usually give our racehorses Winstrol-V instead of Equipoise if we want to pick up their appetite, but at 10cc every 30 days you are on target to increase his appetite. Just watch his teeth (as in biting! lol). You can also look into something such as Body Builder or rice bran oil to help pack on pounds and increase appetite. We have many horses that will pick what they want from a flake of hay and wont touch the rest... we have finally accepted that and just keep tossing them more hay a flake at a time. In the long run, by keeping hay in their stomachs you are helping with the stomach acid (remember horses are grazers and are intended to be digesting food most of the time - strong stomach acid) and it might kill you to waste good hay on a picky eater (it does me!) but when you figure out the cost of wasting a few flakes of hay a day its cheaper than many treatments. And I have a few scavengers that will eat that leftover hay without blinking an eye, so I have the stall cleaner toss clean leftovers to one of those horses. I would also consider adding a cup of aloe vera juice to his grain twice a day, you can add pancake mix to his feed to help add calories, and some horses love red wine or apple cider vinegar added to their feed. Same with beer or guiness as has been suggested.

Best of luck, hope something helps!
Jessi

[HanLady]

hobie cat, how long do you or would you keep them on equipoise? My vet ordered me a bottle of it, charged me 205 bucks. He sent 4 needles, so I was guessing it would be a total of 4 injections he gets. Is the winstrol-V a Rx? Or can it be bought OTC?

He's not doing well at all! The last 2 days have been complete hell! He's okay with hay, and he gets free choice of it. I've been okay with that, at least knowing he's eating something. Tonight when I brought him in, I gave the norm with hay, and he also gets some grain given to him too. He just went down. He didn't get back up until about 6:30. So, he was down for about 2 hours with out touching anything. Not like him at all. He would normally eat at least his hay.

Pancake mix? Really? soaked I assume??

[poltroon]

If you have watery diarrhea, you could be looking at a GI infection - giardia is one, salmonella and C.Dificile are also possibilities.

Watery diarrhea for any extended period is very dangerous; it means that the animal is getting hardly any nutrition from his food, and he may suffer seriously from malnutrition and/or electrolyte imbalance and be unable to repair whatever damage is occurring.

[Laurie@CBF]

Has a fecal been run? There other things to look for besides routine parasites (coccidia, blood cells).

Has a Lymes titer been run?

Additional things to consider include immune mediated ulcerative colitis (sometimes they have diarrhea - sometimes not). Treatment for this often involves corticosteroids for months. Any non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug often exacerbates this problem (think Phenylbutazone toxicity). These horses do well on a grain based diet (odd as it sounds - colon needs a break from roughage).

The flip side of this is a protein losing enteropathy (immune mediated) that responds well to a hay based diet and corticosteroids. I think a glucose tolerance test can be run "in the field" for a dx for this.

Once in a while a case of Lymphoma can present like this - and it isn't until the tumors get larger that one can find evidence of it on an abdomial tap. This is very rare.

Good Luck!

[julie710]

PLEASE READ and take this seriously

Hi Julia:
Just recvd this today, and wondered if it might fill in a piece of the puzzle on your colt. Since you mentioned colitis as a symptom, and that seems to be the main descriptor for this disease called Listeriosis, this may be an answer.

Phil Cheadle, 616-540-3447
Pride of the Fleet

Kris Szuba &lt;krislakota7@yahoo.com&gt; wrote:
To: hitch-hiking_horses@yahoogroups.com
From: Kris Szuba
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 11:47:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: [hitch-hiking_horses] PLEASE READ


Thank You, Patricia, very helpful !! I will pass it on !!

patricia reid &lt;wulfgar@comcast.net&gt; wrote:
HERE IS THE LIST OF THINGS TO WHATCH OUT FOR........ITS KINDA LONG SORRY.


After this post I will quit cluttering up all the unrelated boards and post only to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/whisper_syndrome.

Until the veterinary community can get ahead of this, I am posting what I have learned. Horses are being treated at this moment that had been unsuccessfully treated as having colic and other disorders, so I have felt it urgent to get this out. I have originally consulted with three veterinarians and now contacted several other veterinarians including the Virginia Tech staff who act for the state here.

In posting the symptoms of my horses and three at a near by farm I received an enormous number of emails saying that they had seen the same symptoms, and most of these horses had died within 12 hours to 4 days. The symptoms mimic colic, West Nile, and even Salmonella, and the only effective treatments have been with antibiotics that are effective against gram positive bacteria. I only have a record on one untreated mare surviving and she is still sick. Not a single report had diagnosed Listeriosis and not a single necropsy had determined the cause of death other than the symptom of colitis. Therefore it became clear that an outbreak of an entirely undiagnosed or misdiagnosed disease clearly killing horses in the following states:

Florida, South Carolina, North Carolina, Kentucky, West Virginia, Virginia, Ohio, Minnesota, Pennsylvania, Minnesota, Maryland, up state New York, Wyoming, and there is a possible case in California.

We believe that the disease that we have been calling Whisper Syndrome is in fact Listeriosis or a new strain of this disease. It is a gram positive bacterial infection most commonly known in Icelandic horses.

http://www.cavalor.com/nutritionitem.php?id=175

It is common in Canada in sheep, and in the US in goats. It is also found in humans but it is not known (by me at least) if it can migrate between these species. In Goats it causes symptoms very similar to that seen in horses, especially the strange neck curl or twist we call the Whisper twist. In humans it causes neck pain.

Listeriosis causes gastro enteritis and septicemia. This accounts for the symptoms that appear to be colic, and for the frequent loose manure and/or foul smelling manure and sometimes breath. Please read the symptoms carefully because it is easily misdiagnosed.

Among the horses it appears to be most prevalent in PMU mares and foals from Canada, but our PMU mare Whisper came from North Dakota and had been with us for a year. It has been reported to me in almost every breed and in minis. Since our mare had been here for a year, and no other horses had come or gone, it is possible that this is carried by these horses for long periods of times. The other explanation is that the wet conditions have been such that the organism has spread by other vectors or that it was already present and simply was able to transfer. I personally believe it is transmitted by feeding from the ground or food in contact with the ground and by manure, but that is speculation.

About 80% of all cases involve feeding of round bales. It tends to strike multiple times at a single multi-horse facility often killing three or four horses.

The great majority of cases have occurred since this past Christmas. This is the same season that it is seen in Iceland, largely because this is the time of year that grass silage is fed on the ground. It has also been reported in the warmer months but to a much smaller degree. This could coincide with the fact that fewer round bales are fed during these months. It has been reported in some horses with not round bale access or ground feeding other than grazing.

Symptoms:

Not all these symptoms are present in any single case, but many are seen in most cases.

Sudden, uncharacteristic, aggressive events have been reported to have preceded the onset of other symptoms in a number of cases. Whisper attacked me without provocation several days before her onset and then seemed confused over why she had done so.
These have all been singular events.

Stage 1 symptoms (4 hours to 1 day):
The most reliable early indication is inability to finish meals or complete lack of appetite. Chewing without swallowing is common.

There are unusual neurological symptoms that are nearly as common.
Strange uncharacteristic, isolated stumble, trip, stretching step, head gesture, or other apparently neurological sign.
One common characteristic is a strange step that looks either like a stretch or the animal trying to jump over a nonexistent object.

These are often dismissed due to age or other factors. Turning head sideways while lying down in apparent peace (not looking at flanks like colic) is also classic and very common. Pawing at floor of stall, and or circling. Change of habitual patterns of behavior / confusion. Glassy eyed look and tendency to wander off and get lost.

Some of these symptoms obviously mimic colic, but rolling and looking back at the sides is not common. They also mimic other disorders ranging from West Nile to salmonella and have been commonly treated for these. Only the cases that used a gram positive effective antibiotic for a salmonella diagnosis have been successful, but in these cases fecal tests have not shown salmonella.

Horse will commonly lay down to rest in apparent peace during early stage. If they do this at a time or place that is uncustomary, it is a warning. This may be accompanied by the turning of the head sideways. Nasal discharge has been present in many cases and it contains both fungi and bacteria. A foul breath and/or manure are common. Bloody nasal discharge has been reported in one case with otherwise classic symptoms.

Lack of appetite or chewing but not swallowing are almost universal.
Aversion to water (most but not all cases). Horse may be attracted to water and then react as if shocked when the lips touch it.
Water aversion may precede other symptoms because dehydration is seen early.

No elevated temperature, and possibly a subnormal temperature (96-99.8 is typical).
Temperature may spike for a short period in Stage 1 and then drop to normal or below normal. This spike is often either missed or does not occur at all.

Blood work will show drop in lymphocytes.

Heart rate may not be elevated, and may even be depressed in this stage.

Some signs of colic (caused by colitis that results). It is often treated as colic, losing critical time and resulting in death.

Even if your vet is relatively sure you are dealing with colic, have him or her run blood tests immediately or start Naxcel as a precaution until you know what you are dealing with.

Stage 2 symptoms:
Difficulty walking or refusal to move from a standing position.
Difficulty getting up.
Total confusion and glassy eyed look
Tripping and sudden collapse.
Shivering (onset of shock)

Colitis is a symptom which can cause loose and septicemia causes foul smelling breath and stools. Bloody stool has been reported in one case which is consistent with severe colitis. Distension of the stomach has been noted both during symptoms and at necropsy. Severe diarrhea is reported as is one case of strange stools with small pellets. While not caused by parasites, the syndrome is probably aggravated by them.

White count may or may not elevate.

Stage 3 symptoms:
Shock, seizures, erratic breathing, death

Death results in 12 hours to 4 days.

Survival rates:
1 reported survival in an untreated horse where two others died. This horse is still not fully recovered after several weeks.
2 reported survivals when SMZ (Spectrim or Bactrim) was administered, but disease rebounded in one case.
1 reported survival with 20 CC twice daily of Gentamiacin 30 CC of Probios twice daily (used to treat rebound case above)
2 reported survivals with Tucoprim, unknown dose
6 reported survivals with Naxcel (average dose 20 CC twice daily for 5 to 14 days depending on how early symptoms were caught.
0 reported survivals with penicillin alone (confirms it is gram positive bacteria)

Blood work should be done immediately to determine if the antibiotics are indicated. It is not safe to assume you are dealing with colic and not check blood at this time. Dozens of horses have been reported to have been treated for colic and died shortly thereafter.

It strikes multiple horses at a single facility and in most but not all cases it is horses that are eating round bales. It does not appear to be communicable from horse to horse, at least directly. It may be communicated via feces but this is only speculation. It strikes where no horses have entered the population for months or years. It strikes in facilities that are well managed and clean. If there has been the death of one or more horses with these symptoms, it is crucial to watch the others very closely.

If you have a case to report, here is what I need to know.

Can we contact the attending veterinarian?
Can an investigative veterinarian contact you?
How many of the symptoms were present?
Were multiple horses at the facility and were others affected?
What treatment (exact medications) was given and what were the results?
Were round bales being fed?
Was anything fed from the ground?
Was feed tested?
Where did this occur and how recently.
Was a necropsy performed? Can we have access to it?


I feel like we are very close to getting this thing nailed down. I very much appreciate the help of everyone on all these boards. You are great people!


PS: I believe strongly that horse slaughter for human consumption should stop until we know if this strain can infect humans. I propose a 50 year study.




Patricia Reid
Vice-President
Mustang-Spirit
615-542-4710

[easyrider]

This is really alarming. I seem to recall that your horse "stopped eating" in early January. It's now two months later. How much weight has your horse lost in these last two months? What's his current body condition score? I understand that his eating varies from day to day, but how much hay and anything else does he eat in an average week?

[HanLady]

He has no signs of colitis at all, no loose, runny, stools what so ever. His poop looks quite normal, he's been going just fine, considering he's not eating much.

I considered a lyme titer.... he has no symptoms of lyme. I looked into it, he has no soreness, unexplained lameness issues at all. Did I miss something? Are his symptoms classic of lyme? In 2 yrs he's been at my home, I've never once seen a tick on either horse or my dogs.

Laurie@CBF, would the blood work we ran show anything you've mentioned? He had complete blood work done.

When I spoke with my vet the other day, he was still stumped as to what could be going on. He's eating his hay, which is good, he's drinking his water, another plus, but he won't touch his grain. He looks horrible.

[HanLady]

Yes, this has been going on for about 2 months now. As for signs of illness, he's not eating well, that's it. No temp, all vitals are good, complete blood done and that is all normal.

He eats an "ok" amount of hay, not enough to put weight back on. I give him 2 flakes in the am with grain, he'll eat the hay, ignore the grain. Once he's outside, he has free choice. I throw a flake at a time, but he's always got it there to eat. When he's back in for the night, I throw 3 at 6:00pm, then i go out and throw another 3 at 10. Most of the time he has a bit left in the morning.
I guess allot would consider what he's eating to be quite normal, he eats enough hay for quite a bit of horses to be just fine. Since he was 2 yrs old, he's one who has needed grain to maintain a good weight.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by easyrider:
This is really alarming. I seem to recall that your horse "stopped eating" in early January. It's now two months later. How much weight has your horse lost in these last two months? What's his current body condition score? I understand that his eating varies from day to day, but how much hay and anything else does he eat in an average week? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[SquishTheBunny]

My horse went through a 'phase' of not eating. Picky about hay, but would eat it. Wouldnt touch grain. Tried different kinds of grain. Tried krunch. THe only thing he would eat was krunch submerged in water (so it was mushy) after a week or two, I started adding in grain and now he eats grain just fine. Not saying this will work for you, but have you tried changing feeds?

[HanLady]

The first time he ever went off grain he was on XTN, we went to Legacy and Neigh-lox and he was great til 2 months ago. I just put him on the senior. It can be fed dry or soaked, sometimes he'll eat it dry, sometimes soaked, sometimes not at all.

I just got my probios today, along with red cell. I gave him the 15g as directions state right off. Can't say if anything has changed or not, he's eating his hay. I just added the red cell to a very small amount of bran mash and he ate that too. I'll go back out in a few to give him a handful of grain. I'm only giving him a handful at a time so there isn't much wasted if he chooses to not eat it.

I'm picking up the panacur power pak tomorrow, so will start that tomorrow as well. Hopefully a combination of all this will help him out. I'm considering a weight gain product too. I'm okay with him not wanting grain if he can maintain a good/healthy weight with out it. I'd much rather stick to forage only, but that's just me. And, he won't eat beet pulp. I'm so tired, and frustrated, broken hearted... you name it... I just REALLY hope this isn't just him letting go.

[Sonesta]

Please have another blood test run to see what your horse's protein levels are now. I had a foal last year with these EXACT same symptoms and after MUCH testing and research we discovered that is was a protein losing enteropathy caused by lawsonia intracellularis - which is normally a pig disease. Here is an article that helped us. http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=340023

The first blood tests did not show anything abnormal. It was later that the protein loss was shown.

Please check this out. It is treatable, but deadly if not discovered and treated properly.

[Ghazzu]

Yanno, if this were my horse, about now I'd be considering trucking to a referral faculity and getting a complete diagnostic workup.

As far as the belly tap (abdominocentesis), it wouldn't necessarily rule out all types of neoplasia, though that may not be the problem anyhow.
But you need answers sooner rather than later.

If he's bad enough off that you're concerned a powerpack of panacur is too much for his system(which is the same drug--fenbendazole--as Safegaurd, BTW), then he's in rough shape.
And he'll likely continue the slide until you get yourself a diagnosis so you can properly address the problem.

[num1train]

How is his urine? Is he peeing a lot or just a normal amount?

Did you have just baseline blood work or the whole gambit?

I had a horse who went off his feed (grain). He was diagnosed with chronic renal failure.

I hope you figure it out.

Dana

[HanLady]

Ghazzu,... I've been doing all I can, (have you read my past posts on this?) We don't have facilities in my area as you may in yours. I've been working with 2 vets on this issue. I've had to put some faith into my vet thru this that he knows "something" about what he's talking about. Mc has has a COMPLETE physical, more so than just the norm, lets listen to vitals and check his teeth. He had a complete series of blood work done to check all organ functions, and more, even had a rectal exam done. And yes, panacur, safeguard.. same thing. I understand that. He was wormed with Safeguard in January. Before that it was Ivermectin. I use a worm schedule given to my by my vet based on fecal exams. I choose that over panacur, because I've had horses that for some reason would have a bad reaction to panacur and not safeguard. Why?? Who knows, but that's the one I choose to use.

Question for you.. why is it your always so darn negative rather than supportive to people just looking for a bit of advice?

[momofbeast]

HanLady - I feel for you and what you've gone through. However, I didn't feel that Ghazzu's comments were negative - perhaps curt and short, but not negative. Reading over your posts, it sounds like your guy first started having difficulties in the spring, then was ok for a while, now has been losing weight/not eating for quite some time. I understand that you've been working with the 2 available vets, and that you live quite far from any clinics, but, if it were my horse, I would get him to a clinic for a complete workup - the field vets can only do so much, and, out of necessity usually do what they can in a piece-meal fashion. Not a criticism of them or of your handling of the situation, but it certainly sounds like Ghazzu is right. He needs to be evaluated somewhere with the facilities and expertise to do a complete workup. Rochester is a long drive for you, but they would probably keep him at least overnight, so he wouldn't be doing all of the travelling in one day. I look at the animals like I do my kids and ask myself "if it were one of the kids, would I bring him or her to another doctor or hospital to get another opinion?" If the answer is yes, off we go. Again, I do feel your frustration, but it sounds like some real answers are long over-due.

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HanLady:
Ghazzu,... I've been doing all I can, (have you read my past posts on this?) We don't have facilities in my area as you may in yours. I've been working with 2 vets on this issue. I've had to put some faith into my vet thru this that he knows "something" about what he's talking about. Mc has has a COMPLETE physical, more so than just the norm, lets listen to vitals and check his teeth. He had a complete series of blood work done to check all organ functions, and more, even had a rectal exam done. And yes, panacur, safeguard.. same thing. I understand that. He was wormed with Safeguard in January. Before that it was Ivermectin. I use a worm schedule given to my by my vet based on fecal exams. I choose that over panacur, because I've had horses that for some reason would have a bad reaction to panacur and not safeguard. Why?? Who knows, but that's the one I choose to use.

Question for you.. why is it your always so darn negative rather than supportive to people just looking for a bit of advice? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I understand that your DVM has been doing what he can in an ambulatory setting. I'm not criticizing him at all.
However, the trip to a referral center from where you are can't be more than a few hours, and you might well get an answer quicker with access to all the bells and whistles.

Since you find my contributions less than helpful, I shall endeavor to avoid commenting on issues of yours in the future.

[Inyureye]

You could bring him down to Tufts, Tufts is a completely reasonable haul for you. From CT I have hauled horses to Cornell and Tufts, its long but appropriate in this circumstance. I'd make the trip. His downward slide is so far along, it may have gone beyond the original reason for going off his feed, and his whole system is out of whack, now. He may need some specialized care and IVs, etc. to get him back on track. I wouldn't keep giving him things right now, his health may be too tender to take it. At the university, they can monitor him and intervene quickly if he crashes, and they WILL diagnose him. I think at this point you could consider yourself choosing between keeping him undiagnosed at home or bringing him to Tufts and having the problem solved.

[Maple]

I agree - you need to haul.
I'm on Cape Cod as well and have hauled to both Tufts and/or Rochester when necessary, it's 2 hours +/-. I see you're in NH, how how far can you really be from either place?

It sounds like your choices are two: either watch your guy wither away and die, or be more pro-active about it.

I'd choose #2.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I had an OTTB that also wouldn't eat much. He was on 24/7 turn out and I couldn't get weight on him. He'd eat sometimes but basically wasn't interested in grain. He was turned out alone but had other horses in the field next to him. I stopped putting any supplements or any thing else in his grain. I turned him out with a yearling and started to feed them both together. The competition for food and the company turned him around. He and my other horse became real buddies. He started to eat and eat well. After a few months I started to add back in supplements and he kept eating.

Good luck--hope he turns around quickly.

[HanLady]

I will do what ever is needed for him. I speak with my vets serveral times a week about this and just recently I asked what the benefit of having him brought to a facility would be. His answer was (from a vet who's been with Rochester Equine for eons! btw) was they will not be able to run any tests that we haven't done already. Except scoping, which Levine says is NOT needed. Maybe you all feel that here, but you all are not the ones who have seen him/ examined him.

I totally am peeved http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif that you even dare accuse me of letting him "wither and die"!

I'm sure he doesn't look half as bad as your all assuming. I say he looks horrible, but compared how he looked over the summer, sure he looks horrible. I've seen many that look worse.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Maple:
I agree - you need to haul.
I'm on Cape Cod as well and have hauled to both Tufts and/or Rochester when necessary, it's 2 hours +/-. I see you're in NH, how how far can you really be from either place?

It sounds like your choices are two: either watch your guy wither away and die, or be more pro-active about it.

I'd choose #2. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[HanLady]

I trust 200% that if either of my vets thought he needed to be in a facility, it would have been recommended ASAP. The vet I've been using more on this has been affiliated with Rochester for MANY years, he now runs his private practice and also teaches at UVM. He's not a moron, he knows his stuff, and he wouldn't leave anything out, wouldn't just let my guy just go downhill. If he felt being "hospitalized" was needed, it would have been stated.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Inyureye:
You could bring him down to Tufts, Tufts is a completely reasonable haul for you. From CT I have hauled horses to Cornell and Tufts, its long but appropriate in this circumstance. I'd make the trip. His downward slide is so far along, it may have gone beyond the original reason for going off his feed, and his whole system is out of whack, now. He may need some specialized care and IVs, etc. to get him back on track. I wouldn't keep giving him things right now, his health may be too tender to take it. At the university, they can monitor him and intervene quickly if he crashes, and they WILL diagnose him. I think at this point you could consider yourself choosing between keeping him undiagnosed at home or bringing him to Tufts and having the problem solved. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[HanLady]

Things like this CAN and DO happen with out medical reasons.

[HanLady]

Ghazzu, it's not that I don't find your advice helpful, I just felt you didn't need to treat me like an idiot with things, such as feeling the need to tell me what the "medical" term to a stomach tap, or that this wormer is the same as that wormer..I'm not stupid and I didn't feel I needed to be treated as so.

Sorry if I've read ya the wrong way, sorry if you've misunderstood me.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ghazzu:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HanLady:
Ghazzu,... I've been doing all I can, (have you read my past posts on this?) We don't have facilities in my area as you may in yours. I've been working with 2 vets on this issue. I've had to put some faith into my vet thru this that he knows "something" about what he's talking about. Mc has has a COMPLETE physical, more so than just the norm, lets listen to vitals and check his teeth. He had a complete series of blood work done to check all organ functions, and more, even had a rectal exam done. And yes, panacur, safeguard.. same thing. I understand that. He was wormed with Safeguard in January. Before that it was Ivermectin. I use a worm schedule given to my by my vet based on fecal exams. I choose that over panacur, because I've had horses that for some reason would have a bad reaction to panacur and not safeguard. Why?? Who knows, but that's the one I choose to use.

Question for you.. why is it your always so darn negative rather than supportive to people just looking for a bit of advice? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I understand that your DVM has been doing what he can in an ambulatory setting. I'm not criticizing him at all.
However, the trip to a referral center from where you are can't be more than a few hours, and you might well get an answer quicker with access to all the bells and whistles.

Since you find my contributions less than helpful, I shall endeavor to avoid commenting on issues of yours in the future. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HanLady:
Ghazzu, it's not that I don't find your advice helpful, I just felt you didn't need to treat me like an idiot with things, such as feeling the need to tell me what the "medical" term to a stomach tap, or that this wormer is the same as that wormer..I'm not stupid and I didn't feel I needed to be treated as so.

Sorry if I've read ya the wrong way, sorry if you've misunderstood me.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do believe you have--or vice versa. For instance, you alluded to being uncomfortable using panacur, but safeguard was ok. That made me think perhaps you didn't know they were the same drug made by the same manufacturer.
God knows there are about a million names out there for the same drug, and I have clients who mistakenly believe that they are rotating drugs when they are merely rotating trade names.
Doesn't make either them or you "stupid".

When you used the term stomach tap, it was unclear whether you thought the stomach was being examined by that test. There could certainly be a case of gastric carcinoma, for instance that would not show up on an abdominal tap, and is a stomach problem.

I am fully aware that you can run every test in the book with no answers.

I did it with my own stallion a few years ago.
After exhausting every other test, we took him in for an exploratory to find that his small intestinal walls were infiltrated by sheets of abnormal tissue, and the lumen was much reduced in diameter.

Nothing to indicate that had shown up on bloodwork, radiographs, ultrasound, gastroscopy, repeated abdominal taps, rectal exams, etc.

And no clear answers as to what it was, even on necropsy.

Trust me, if I think you're an idiot, I'll come right out and say it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ghazzu:
Trust me, if I think you're an idiot, I'll come right out and say it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll vouch for Ghazzu on that one! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

HanLady, look at it from "our" perspective - you came on this thread, you asked for our advice, you are very worried about your horse and it showed up in your writing.

That's what we know.

We don't know your vet. We don't know if he was declared Most Supreme Infallible Vet of the Universe. We only know what you write. And what MOST of us are getting out of it is you are NOT happy with the lack of diagnosis or improvement. A few of the more savvy posters know that a) you probably need to do a full work up if only for your own peace of mind and b) that may not tell you anything new.

But it's worth throwing out the suggestion because if things were hunky dory in your part of the world, I doubt you would have started this post.

[Moonriver]

We're praying for your boy (& you too), HanLady. Please be assured of this. I can only imagine how heartbreaking this is for you. Maybe there will be a breakthrough soon......

[none...]

I didnt get a chance to read through all the posts (so I dont know if this was already suggeste, tried)

but have you thought about cushings disease? It frequently happens to older horses and results in lots of weight loss and no appetite. There is a horse at my barn that has cushings, he just one day started to drop weight and would not eat. He wouldnt touch his hay, didnt finish his grain, nothing. *Maybe* if we were lucky, we could get him to eat a bit of beat pulp or mash.

The vet drew some blood and did all neccessary testing and concluded it was cushings. He is now on meds and looking better, but we still need to keep a good eye on his weight.

Best of luck with your guy http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Spurt]

Ok,
Scope him-no ifs, ands, or buts.

If your vet is stumped, I wouldn't be putting all my eggs in his basket. I would get a second, third and fourth opinion. Get copies of all the labwork and send it out to various clinics.

Do another blood test, scope him immediately, continue to take all his vital signs on a regular basis.

Ritadine, is used to treat ulcers, it helps with appetite. It is much cheaper the gastro-guard and works faster but not as good. I would get a bottle of that, you should see results fairly quickly if it is a problem like that.
Instead of doing the panacur, how about tube worm him?
Go to your local feed store and just pick up a couple random bags of feed, doesn't have to be anything expensive. Try them. If he eats bran mashes feed them to him. Try beetpulp, try cooking his oats, try his feed in different forms and feed him at different times and different locations.
Is he dehydrated? I would get a tube of electrolytes and blam him with that.
Truthfully, anything you do though is going to be shooting in the dark until you scope him.
I would once again check for sores in his mouth, having his teeth done once doesn't mean they didn't miss anything or that they didn't mess them up. If you can't find the problem the first time, its time to recheck and take a different route.
Try feeding him alfalfa mixed with his hay.
So, once again, call a different vet, get him scoped, look at the results and proceed. Plus, fax all the labwork to clinics to be checked again. Compare notes from first vet to second vet and make sure there aren't any sudden changes in any of the results.

[WarHorse]

I'm not familiar with all different types of wormers, but I am familiar with a horse that pretended to take his paste wormer, then spat it out later.

He died after a month in our hospital. His abdominal artery was 99% occluded with worms.

Just a thought - and hugs for you and your horse.

[HanLady]

He was wormed Jan. 18th with a tube of safeguard, and last week with ivermectin. When I worm him I have to hold his head up for a bit to make sure he's swallowed it. I've never noticed anything spit out afterwards.

When we first started out and swore it was ulcers, he has already been on Legacy and Neigh-Lox. I did cimetidine and then gastro guard, and also changed his diet to beet pulp and alfalfa, he'd eat a very small amount at a time, so I was going out feeding him as much as he'd eat as often as he'd eat. At times it was every hour just trying to get a handful into him. I'd add some bran to the beet pulp, carrots... I also put him on the senior, it can be fed soaked or pelleted. Sometimes he'll eat it soaked, sometimes pelleted. I've been soaking it with bran, he seems to eat more that way. He has days where he'll eat super well, and others he won't be interested at all. He likes the red cell. I've only been giving it to him to make sure he's getting enough vite's and min's. He's eating hay like crazy! Which is very good, I think if he hadn't lost weight the amount of hay would be just fine, but I'm not sure it's enough to put weight back on him. I'm also giving him the T-n-T (timothy and alfalfa mix) from nutrena.

As for his teeth, he needs to be sedated when having them done, they were done in June, maybe May.. it was done by my vet due to the sedation, my dentist looked at him after that and found all to be good. When he started not eating again, my dentist checked him again, as did the vet.

I do have the vet coming again on Monday for more blood work, so I will have him look again at his teeth and mouth while he is here. The reason he is coming is because he feels the equipoise should be working better by now. Maybe it is, and maybe that is why he's eating hay as he is? I've mentioned things to him such as cushings, lyme, diabetes... so another reason we're doing it all again.

He's drinking really well, not sure if it's because I'm bringing warm water to him or not, but he's drinking so I continue to do so. I'm home all day, so it's no issue to run out as often as needed.

Another thing we've been thinking is he's home sick. I bought him as a 2 yr old, he spent his entire life at my mothers home, 2 yrs ago he came here when we bought the place. (My daughter rides him now). We're thinking that maybe he just wants to go home. When some of this 15 inches of snow we just got melts and our trailers are unstuck, we're going to bring him back there. Not sure, but trying to think outside the box. Also thought of an animal communicator. We'll see...

[Spurt]

Well thats all good. But when your vet comes out have him scope him. I don't know why you would go through all this trouble and not do a simple check of his throat and such.

[Ghazzu]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[trevorstreats]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by *Eventer Allie*:
I didnt get a chance to read through all the posts (so I dont know if this was already suggeste, tried)

but have you thought about cushings disease? It frequently happens to older horses and results in lots of weight loss and no appetite. There is a horse at my barn that has cushings, he just one day started to drop weight and would not eat. He wouldnt touch his hay, didnt finish his grain, nothing. *Maybe* if we were lucky, we could get him to eat a bit of beat pulp or mash. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm glad someone else suggested this...I just lost my old guy to cushings. No symptoms other than lack of interest in feed & weight loss. We tried every feed & temptation - even B12 shots. The tumor finally grew to the point it pushed on his brain, causing seizures. I'd suggest this test if your vet were coming anyway to draw blood. At least you can rule it out. 18 isn’t to young for this disease.

Best of luck with this....I know how hard & frustrating it is to try to get them to gain weight.

[HanLady]

What is the test for cushings? Is it a simple blood test? more? I'm taking it that it would NOT have shown in the blood we've done?

[none...]

I found this article threw equisearch:
http://www.equisearch.com/care/illness/cushings/
It pretty much goes over the basics about cushings, though, Ive seen a lot more (and different) symtomes from the ones in this article, so another websearch might help you. Good luck to your guy, I hope you figure it out!

[trevorstreats]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HanLady:
What is the test for cushings? Is it a simple blood test? more? I'm taking it that it would NOT have shown in the blood we've done? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is a specific blood test, not something that shows in a general blood "screen". If your vet is coming to draw blood anyway, it couldn't hurt to ask to have him test for it?

[OneonOne]

Any update on this horse?

[Tiramit]

Have you asked your vet about diabetes? It's a wild shot in the dark, but my family had a horse with similar symptoms to yours that, after countless tests (including blood work and scoping), turned out to be a rare form of diabetes. Just something to ask since you don't yet have an answer.

Good luck.

[HanLady]

Vet was out again on Monday. He scoped his throat, all is fine. He did blood again, the complete work on all organ function again, iron, protien, etc... also did one for diabetes and cushings. I should hear today. Vets commments on him were that he seems to be in better spirit than last time he was out. His appetite has got better, no weight gain yet, but he's eating more now. He's just very picky with grain still. The equipoise has effected him so he's acting like a stud. He's crazy around my mare (who is in foal) and had been trying to mount her, so they are now separated. Vet doubts he has cushings, he has no signs, even for diabetes, he said he'd be drinking and urinating frequently, he's not, but the tests were run to rule them out anyway. I'll post when I have results.

[annikak]

bump...

how are things??

[tazzmom]

Has anybody thought it might be enterolithes??? I know of two cases out here that had completely different symptoms, and in the end... they both had "e's"!!! The first horse always had a scraggly coat, even in the summer, big gut but bony topline. He had a very bad bout of colic, and during the surgery they pulled out over two dozen enterolithes!!! Some of which were larger than oranges with one being the size of a large cantalope! He now looks like a completely different horse! Good weight ALL over him not just in the gut, and a beautiful glossy coat, something he never had bafore! The second horse, much like this one, went off his feed, even refusing to eat treats. Well the vet was called and he diagnosed ulcers without any scoping only blood was taken, and there was nothing too revealing there. After putting him on the VERY expensive treatment for ulcers for one month, he seemed back to normal, and was taken off the treatment per the vet. Well,, two weeks later, when I was cleaning his stall I noticed some "rocks" in his poop!! He was passing enterolithes! They were about the size of a plum!! Now he is on a supplement to help pass "stuck" things along. He gets the psyllium the first week of each month in his feed. Don't know if this is your problem or not, but when you get your horse scoped, keep a lookout for these little (or BIG) buggers! Oh yeah! He also gets 1/2 cup of cider vinegar in his feed each feeding to help prevent the formation of these "rocks". BUT make sure its enterolithes you're dealing with before giving the vinegar because that would majorly aggrivate ulcers if that is indeed what he has.

[HanLady]

Blood came back normal again. He does not have diabetes or cushings. He's been eating well. He's eating 2 lbs grain am AND pm. He's due for one more equipoise injection in 3 weeks. I've also added stuff called Cool Calories 100 to his diet.

I'm going to do a search for enterolithes, but what is it? Never heard of it?? How was it diagnosed?

I just looked it up... would these "stones" be felt by rectal palpation? He had a rectal exam and was fine there too.

It's been extremely frustrating to NOT have a diagnosis, but I do have to say I'm extremely relieved he's eating again.

[daysgonebyfarm]

Now I have actually sat here and read the whole thread and it sounds like your doing everything possible to help your boy.

Glad to hear he's eating again. Do you have any pictures of him, say from last summer to fall and then now as he's started to eat again. Sometimes because you see him every day (or 2-3 hours from the sounds of it) you won't "see" the weight gain. Maybe have someone out that will only see him once a week or so. You said even your vet saw a difference in him, hope it keeps prgressing in this line.

Maybe he just had enough of winter! Thank goodness spring is here - but their calling for 6-12" of snow tonight http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[GallopGal]

Sounds like you have tried everything. What about turing him out in a huge grassy pasture for 10-12 hours a day.(Spring is near grass will be getting greener) Just let him be a horse, sometimes they know whats best.

My horse went from a 7 hours a day to 10-12 hours a day and from a little padock to a large grassy pasture and the difference in his looks, personality, and soundness are more than I could have expected. Before we could not keep weight on him and we could not get his hocks sound no matter what we did. Now that I gave him a huge pasture and 3-5 more hours out I dont have to do anything to keep weight on him or help his hocks!!!

[tazzmom]

A recal exam most likely won't show anything, since the enterolithes can form ANYWHERE in the hundreds of feet of intesines. We were told that ultrasound or x-rays MAY show them but not always. Doing those tests, however meant hauling to a facility with highly specialized equipment, the portable stuff that the average vet has is not powerful enough to get a good reading in the intestines. Ask your vet...he may say to try it! With all the time and money you aready have invested, this might not be a bad idea! Good luck, and I'll be praying for your guy!

[tazzmom]

Oh yeah, GallopGal, you know which horse I was talking about, the first one was Frosty, you know Herder's horse,the one that got reserve at the team penning finals 2 years ago! Then, he looked like he was a million years old, now he looks great! The other one is Mousse, Heather's horse.

[tazzmom]

BUMP, any new news on your guy?

[HanLady]

No new news since I got back results that he does not have cushings or diabetes. Good news is he has been eating pretty good. Not sure if it's the equipoise? Maybe. He's been eating a total of 4 pounds of senior, free choice hay. Also at night I fill is feeder with the Nutrena T-n-T. I just hope he continues to eat like this and put some weight back on.

[moribelle]

I seriously agree with taking him off the alfalfa. BUT GRADUALLY. Have you tried a nice Brohm hay? It has a wide blade and is easy to digest. Be careful of coastal, it can cause an impaction because of its thin blade. I'm all for the plain oats too, get the rolled (crushed) kind.
Best of luck!

[rhymeswithfizz]

Wow.... this thread is almost 3 years old. How do these things get resurrected??

[DMK]

yeesh, THREE years? Life. Get one.

[dallasbarnone]

I'm sorry, I really don't mean to harp on this, but a PowerPack may be a really good idea. Ask your vet. Diarrhea, being off the feed, gastric distress, etc. can be symptoms of encysted strongyles.. Strongid and ivermectin and daily wormers do not kill encysted strongyles. If your horse has not been wormed either with moxidectin or the Panacur Powerpack within the past year, there's a reasonable chance that the horse has encysted strongyles. Late winter and early spring are when the strongyles begin to emerge. A fecal count of the manure will not necessary pick up the encysted strongyles.

Last spring, a gelding (6 years old) at the barn where I board had persistent, low-level colic-like symptoms. He didn't shed out well, his coat was dull, he dropped weight, didn't eat well. Vet checked him for infections, etc., nothing turned up. Put the horse on daily wormer, and that actually made the symptoms somewhat worse. Doses of maalox made the symptoms somewhat better, but after a couple of hours the symptoms returned. The owner dosed him with a PowerPack and he really turned around.


im with you - the power pac kills the third stages of the encysteds - nothing else will touch them including moxidectin, which i would never use on a young horse or an older weakend one anyway .. but i would still say to have this horse checked over by a vet with the mouth spec, i work with a vet and we had a four year old mare that seven SEVEN vets checked-scoped- bloodtest you name it, they ended up treating it for EPM- while we were there for another horse the owner was talking to someone about the vet being scheduled to put this horse down the next day, my vet went over and asked if he could take another look in the horses mouth, and this horse has also been seen by several dentists,, anyway - when he looked - all the way in the back under the tongue was a huge ulcer, from the INSIDE of the last cheek tooth , it had a point on it that jabbed this poor horse under neath where the tongue attaches, to top this off- the dentist that had checked the horse had used the horses tongue to keep his mouth open and damaged the attachments where the tongue joins.. My vet gave him a light sedative and took off the point, and by the way it was the ONLY point in the horses mouth - the rest of the teeth were done .. and they called the following day and said even though the horse was hanging his tongue out from the damage caused by the other guy, he was eating up a storm and they called and cancelled the Euthanasia--- get the horse rechecked well if you can before it goes much farther-that could very well be part of the problem . Panacur is not strong - and its the same ingred's at Safeguard- they are both fenbendazole, no difference except the power pac IS a double dose per tube- with safeguard you would have to use ten tubes for five days at two tubes per day.. its the safest wormer you can use - up to many times the dosage ..even at the double dose.

[Jumphigh83]

I am surprised no one mentioned tape worms. I know of one horse that went downhill rapidly and lost all kinds of weight and on necropsy he was loaded with tape worm. (this was in the day before praziquantil (sp?) and it was thought that horses didnt "get" tapeworm....) So if the thread is three years old what happened to the horse? The suspense is killing me!

[Char0308]

I have known several horses that we suspected for ulcers, they didn't eat well, losing weight, were girthy, and got gas colic a lot. We tried gastrogauard, hay changes, diet changes, home remedies, etc. and nothing worked. The only thing that made a difference in these horses was to move them to a farm where they got all day or all night turnout on good grass pastures. Then within a few months all their issues cleared up and they have healthy appetities for hay, grain, and pasture.. Previously that had been on all day or all night turnout but in small overgrazed paddocks with hay. Quality turn out can really make a difference in some horses.

[My2cents]

Ooops, jumped on this train a little too late. I must have looked at someone's 'join date' and not the posted date. Hope the old boy is still with us