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Glimmerglass

Jun. 24, 2004, 12:40 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by azgirl:
12 years ago I (and a friend) witnessed this person killing a horse the same way. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What am I missing here? You said YOU witnessed the killing so YOU would be the person who goes to the police and lodges the accusation. It really sounds like you are standing on the sidelines complaining when - per your own admission - you saw this first hand.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Anyway, I'm not naming names because I can't prove it <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

With your latter remark, how is it you can't prove it? If the death of the horse is known to be unnatural and you know the technique employed then I can guarantee you, investigators can determine the how and go after the who.

Go-Go

Jun. 24, 2004, 12:41 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by azgirl:
you can't build a case on hearsay. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, but apparently you can accuse people of killing horses on the Internet on it.

Janet

Jun. 24, 2004, 12:43 PM

Not necessarily a troll.

I am not going to name names, but I will tell a story about one of the trainers who WAS convicted of killing a horse(or having a horse killed) for insurance.

About 10 years before the public scandal I was told by someone I have known for MANY years, and trust implicitly, that SHE had been told by one of the grooms that witnessed it, of this trainer having a horse killed for insurance. Nothing either she or I could do about it as it was only hearsay, and the groom in question was too scared (with reasson) of what would happen to him if he reported it. So nothing came of it. (By the time of the big scandal, this particular incident had exceeded the statute of limitiations.)

I am quite willing to believe it is still going on, and the OP ins not necessarily a troll.

However, I am not sure what, if any, good can come of posting it.

Go-Go

Jun. 24, 2004, 12:45 PM

Well, you didn't ask for help. If you want to report it, call the insurance company. The woman that rides with the trainer is probably the agent, not the insurer.

Call your vet. Call the police. Call another trainer that you trust, or another insurance agency (Great American, for example) and get their advice.

Glimmerglass

Jun. 24, 2004, 12:49 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Go-Go:
The woman that rides with the trainer is probably the agent, not the insurer.

Call your vet. Call the police. Call another trainer that you trust, or another insurance agency (Great American, for example) and get their advice. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ditto on the advice.

Insurance companies pool funds - so Suzie at XYZ might own that affiliate but she isn't the underwriter.

RugBug

Jun. 24, 2004, 12:51 PM

Are we all naive enough to believe that it doesn't still go on?

Doesn't surprise me in the least....

And that's not to say that I believe/disbelieve the OP. Just a bit incredulous that people think that it doesn't still occur.

squeezix

Jun. 24, 2004, 12:54 PM

I don't mean to be harsh in response to your response, however...if grooms are witnessing killings and not reporting for fear of being deported...they shouldn't be working with horses.

In my opinion, ethically you should feel obligated to 1) Call the ASPCA 2) Call the police 3) Notify the insurance company of your suspicians. Trust me, the insurance company does NOT want to pay on false claims for their own self interest, and most likely THEY will pursue it.

I don't understand how anyone could turn a blind eye to the welfare of animals, regardless of the situation you have described.

SemiAutomatic

Jun. 24, 2004, 12:55 PM

How are they killing the horses? I am only asking to figure out why there is no proof.

Also, if numerous horses have died from the same problem, why hasn't the insurance company asked questions (or denied their renewal/new applications- they can do that you know)

If this is true- it's sad no one will step forward and fight to put an end to these awful peoples horse careers... If they have done it before they will do it again!

I think the reason people are upset with the OP is b/c instead of putting an end to it (telling authorities or insurance company). She/he came here and told all of us, who certainly can't stop it! By the way- there are ususally more than one person working at an insurance company and I am sure they would be interested in someone scamming them out of money (maybe this person riding there is in on the insurance fruad?!?)

Gunnar

Jun. 24, 2004, 12:56 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by azgirl:
go go -

who am i supposed to report this to? like i said, the cops aren't going to be able to do anything with hearsay.

the owner of the insurance company rides with this trainer! so that won't work

I can't do anything, I just wanted to vent and I didn't know where to go.

I figured this board would have sympathetic horse people on it.

I guess I was wrong <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hey I am sympathetic and understand. You can vent to me any time and I will not judge what you have no control over.

Putting on my flame retardent suit I will say that this BB can be full of naysayers. If someone really cares they will ask to help you, not criticize you for your venting. I realize in your situation there is little you can do but you felt bad and wanted to share with us.

Sorry.

Go-Go

Jun. 24, 2004, 12:56 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by RugBug:
Are we all naive enough to believe that it doesn't still go on? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't think anyone has said that at all, but the OP's responses are just a bit fishy. I mean, c'mon, if this is going on in my barn, I'm SCREAMING bloody murder at the top of my lungs and on the phone with everyone I can think of and their Uncle Jimmy, too.

Magnolia

Jun. 24, 2004, 12:59 PM

You know, they are breaking the law. You could report an anonymous tip to the insurance who does not want to pay out fraudulant claims anymore than you want to see Flicka killed. It's easy to post anon on a BB to get it off your chest, far harder to do something about the situation.....

Go-Go

Jun. 24, 2004, 12:59 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by azgirl:
I guess I could call the insurance company and alert them to the pattern of all these horses dying from the same thing after they become lame or fail to win. If they do anything with it, its their choice, right? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, call them and tell them that you suspect horses are being killed and you'd like to know who you can talk to about it. They'll let you know where to go from there, trust me.

SillyHorse

Jun. 24, 2004, 01:00 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by azgirl:
My vet and my tainer know. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
YOUR VET knows about this, yet does nothing? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif And is still your vet? Sorry, I don't get this at all.

Janet

Jun. 24, 2004, 01:02 PM

The people you need to alert are the underwriters, the ones whose money it is. The underwriters are far to big to have a single "owner". I suspect that the person who rides with the trainer is the owner of a local insurance brokerage, who "writes" the coverage, but does not personally pay the setlement.

If you don't know who the underwriter is, I would follow the suggestion of calling AN unerwriteer (Great American was suggested) and asking them for advice.

But reporting this kind of thing is by no means risk free. If you remember the original trials, one of the participants was ALSO convicted of trying to have one of the witnnesses killed.

SGray

Jun. 24, 2004, 01:03 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Janet:
.....I am not going to name names, but I will tell a story about one of the trainers who WAS convicted of killing a horse(or having a horse killed) for insurance.

About 10 years before the public scandal I was told by someone I have known for MANY years, and trust implicitly, that SHE had been told by one of the grooms that witnessed it, of this trainer having a horse killed for insurance. Nothing either she or I could do about it as it was only hearsay, and the groom in question was too scared (with reasson) of what would happen to him if he reported it. So nothing came of it. (By the time of the big scandal, this particular incident had exceeded the statute of limitiations.)

I am quite willing to believe it is still going on, and the OP ins not necessarily a troll..... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I had an experience very similar to Janet's. Groom for client of BNT (later convicted) was good friend of mine. He told me of the confusion and consternation of the people who were ignorant of what was happening when a show-hunter 'coliced' and died at a show. The ignorant didn't understand how the horse could be found dead in an undisturbed stall - no signs of pawing, rolling, pacing,......

Go-Go

Jun. 24, 2004, 01:03 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Janet:
But reporting this kind of thing is by no means risk free. If you remember the original trials, one of the participants was ALSO convicted of trying to have one of the witnnesses killed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Tried? Shoot, some argue suceeded...

411

Jun. 24, 2004, 01:04 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by azgirl:
There really isn't anything any of us can do about it. I'm just sick of everyone sweeping it under the carpet. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, there is something YOU can do about it. And by not reporting it, you yourself are guilty of "sweeping it under the carpet." If you have knowledge that a crime has been committed, you have a moral, if not legal, obligation to report it. You justify not doing anything based upon your assumption that no one will do anything about it, and I find that very disturbing.

Please do the right thing and report what you know to the authorities. File it anonymously if you must, but please, do something.

Janet

Jun. 24, 2004, 01:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Go-Go:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Janet:
But reporting this kind of thing is by no means risk free. If you remember the original trials, one of the participants was ALSO convicted of trying to have one of the witnnesses killed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Tried? Shoot, some argue suceeded... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>But only CONVICTED of trying.

Go-Go

Jun. 24, 2004, 01:07 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Janet:
But only CONVICTED of trying. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Quite true.

Go-Go

Jun. 24, 2004, 01:13 PM

Well, there ya go. Good girl. Let us know how it goes.

Ketch

Jun. 24, 2004, 01:14 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> and their Uncle Jimmy, too <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, Uncle Jimmy is very well-respected in the horse insurance industry. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Go-Go

Jun. 24, 2004, 01:15 PM

Oh, Ketch, you know him, too? What a small world!

Ketch

Jun. 24, 2004, 01:17 PM

What is with us and the bad jokes? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif We just can't seem to stay away from them. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Go-Go

Jun. 24, 2004, 01:18 PM

BAD!?!?! Ketch, where's your self-esteem? We are VERY, VERY good at this!

Ketch

Jun. 24, 2004, 01:19 PM

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

zedcadjna

Jun. 24, 2004, 01:20 PM

I think this goes on more then we know....

Flashy Gray

Jun. 24, 2004, 01:27 PM

azgirl, all I am going to do is suggest that you call your state's insurance fraud hotline.

Every state has a 'State Department of Insurance" regulatory agency or the state's Attorney General maintains an investigations bureau to deal with insurance fraud. Most have anonymous tiplines where you can speak to investigators.

If you are really serious about your first post and you want to do something then placing a quick phone call could be the start to a solution.

Go to your home state's web homepage and see if there is a link to the AG's office or the Insurance regulator.

hbm

Jun. 24, 2004, 01:28 PM

A lot of insurance companies under write with Great American - http://www.gaic.com/pages/index.jsp - if you want to try contacting them.

Party Rose

Jun. 24, 2004, 01:32 PM

THANK GOODNESS
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>azgirl
Training Level posted Jun. 24, 2004 04:11 PM
Ok, you all have convinced me to call the insurance company. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can not tell you how boiled I am from reading this thread....In a million different ways.

Remember too, that you are also breaking the law by not reporting this to the police. Withholding evidence (though hearsay) is not only a felony, but a punishable crime.

Good luck, keep us posted and most of all....blessings for our four legged friends. It is our responsibility to watch over their health and welfare.

squeezix

Jun. 24, 2004, 01:35 PM

Another thing occured to me. MOVE YOUR HORSE! CHANGE TRAINERS! CHANGE VETS! Don't give your money to people you know are corrupt. Don't support them in this way...which is what you are doing by patronizing them in any way. Encourage others to do the same. Help to make these practices NOT ACCEPTABLE. I am sorry your "VENT" didn't turn out to be a supportive "back patting" session. But this BB is generally full of folks who LOVE horses and will react strongly to situations of suspected abuse and MURDER. If I were you, I would DISTANCE yourself at minimum, since you clearly do not feel compelled to notify the authorities.

Go-Go

Jun. 24, 2004, 01:35 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Flashy Gray:
azgirl, all I am going to do is suggest that you call your state's insurance fraud hotline.

Every state has a 'State Department of Insurance" regulatory agency or the state's Attorney General maintains an investigations bureau to deal with insurance fraud. Most have anonymous tiplines where you can speak to investigators.

If you are really serious about your first post and you want to do something then placing a quick phone call could be the start to a solution.

Go to your home state's web homepage and see if there is a link to the AG's office or the Insurance regulator. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is great advice, too.

Seahorsefarmtobe

Jun. 24, 2004, 01:42 PM

you just learned about it?
or you witnessed it 12 years ago?
I am confused http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

411

Jun. 24, 2004, 01:51 PM

Good girl!!!!!

You have done the right thing. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Seahorsefarmtobe

Jun. 24, 2004, 01:53 PM

411 - love your sig line!

Go-Go

Jun. 24, 2004, 01:55 PM

clapclapclap - bravo, good job. You did the right thing. Hopefully it will pan out, but at the very least you did SOMETHING. Thank you.

khobstetter

Jun. 24, 2004, 04:25 PM

azgirl..

Horse killing is a VERY sensetive subject for ALL of us here!!!! You cannot just "bring it up to vent" and not get a rise out of all of us!!

People killing horses or people coming on the BB and posting about it just to "vent" will get us all riled up....

And I am proud that it gets us all riled up...please post facts and details and then we won't get crazy with the thought of someone killing a horse...WE WILL DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

This BB is full of people who will stick their necks out and call proper authorities if they even get a HINT that someone is killing a horse.

Don't throw stones at us cause we are that passionate about it...give us facts and we will follow up where you don't seem to want to..you just want to "vent".

GOOD JOB ON YOUR FOLLOW UP........PLEASE LET US KNOW THE MINUTE YOU HEAR ANYTHING.!!!!

WWCountry

Jun. 24, 2004, 05:32 PM

You should also report the Vet to the AAEP--the American Association of Equine Practioners (or something to that effect). Any vet who knowingly aids or ignores the murder of horses should be investigated and if found guilty, lose their license. They take an oath to protect and care for animals.

fleur

Jun. 24, 2004, 06:29 PM

some of the posts on this thread really make me shake my head...

1)grooms not reporting. if you worked 80+ hours shoveling shit and getting paid min. wage because it was the best you could get as an illegal alien, would you really risk your life, your livelihood, and the welfare of your family by reporting a trainer who most likely has a decent reputation, speaks perfect english, and if he is killing horses then clearly has a pretty damn good alibi?

2)talking about screaming your head off about it. again, are you willing to be killed or have someone close to you be killed for the sake of the cause? because as evident by the past scandals the people who do this are serious about not getting caught. reporting it is one thing but blatantly talking about it at the barn? doesn't seem smart to me.

3) the BB getting riled up over a horse getting killed. i am as much of a horse lover as everyone else but to be honest? a horse killed for insurance is likely to be electricuted which if done correctly (not saying it always is) is quick. breaking legs is a different story of course, but still it is still just a horse being killed. do you get riled up over the horses that die long terrible deaths in a field with no water or food? more importantly, do you do anything about it? how about the myriad stray animals in Greece being poisoned in prep for the 2004 games, of which horse sports are obviously an important part to us? i know this is an isolated incident being presented here but i don't think that makes it any more worthy of outrage than the many other injustices going on in and out of the horse world.

i guess i just don't see this OP's topic as being worthy of labeling her a troll. it seems like lately anything posted that is slightly off-color is immediately accused of being trollish. not nice, especially to new members, which it is entirely possible that azgirl is. JMHO

Lord Helpus

Jun. 24, 2004, 06:32 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by squeezix:
I don't mean to be harsh in response to your response, however...if grooms are witnessing killings and not reporting for fear of being deported...they shouldn't be working with horses. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Squeezix,

Your sentiment is admirable, but incredibly naive. A groom is not the person you want to be pointing a finger at and saying that he should not be working with animals if he doesn't step forward and do the right thing, even at the risk of deportation.

Why should he risk what he has to blow the whistle on a rich hombre -- when the police will probably not believe him anyway? Especially when so many white people know what is going on and none of them are doing anything to stop it?

Remember, Tommy Burns was given the nickname "The Sandman" because so many horses went to sleep when he was around.
Who do you think gave him this name?
When do you think he got it?
Who do you think called him The Sandman?

Three guesses -- and the answers are:

People on the A circuit;
While he was killing the horses;
People on the A circuit.

If these people did nothing to turn him (and the trainers he worked for) in while the killings were going on, WHY should a Mexican groom?

This stuff was going down when I was taking a break form showing and was back in law school and getting married. But I still had friends on the circuit and I heard things third hand.

I heard about the famous horse who kicked out in the grooming stall at a show and put his leg through the vaccuum and had to be destroyed on the spot. No one could keep a straight face over that one.

I heard about the unusually high rate of colic at a couple of farms. [wink, wink]

There were lots of rumors flying around; I was out of the loop, 3000 miles away from it and I still heard a fair number of them.

OF COURSE people knew what was happening. Hundreds of people must have known what was happening. And yet the circle closed in around the malfeasors. The equine world closed ranks to protect its own.

This is not an unusual occurrance. In horse racing several years ago there was improper usage of a drug (not a narcotic, but a banned drug nonetheless because it might have had a performance enhancing effect). One trainer used it until a test came out for it. He won tons and had several champions. Did people know? Of course. Did anyone say anything? Nope. Why? Because to say something would have rocked racing and shaken people's faith in the sport. Better to clean house and move on.

I think that is what the show world was hoping would happen with the insurance scandal But it got too big to sweep under the rug. So when it blew sky high, people who had known about it all along had to pretend to be surprised.

I believe the OP. I believe that she is far from the only person out there with such knowledge. For every horse that dies, there are at least a dozen people directly involved in the killing and cover up. And each of those 12 interacts with another 12 who tell the juicy story to another 12.

The number of people who know something 3rd hand expands logrhythmically....

SemiAutomatic

Jun. 24, 2004, 07:14 PM

I am glad you decided to do something. If the insurance company gets enough complaints about a particular person-- a thorough investigation will be done (I'd mention the one 12 yrs ago when you talk to someone- pattern of behavior). Insurance companies do not want to pay claims, hence all the conditions on most of the policies. Not to mention that is how they make money. At the absolute minmium this person could be convicted of insurance fruad.

As for the groom- illegal grooms are treated like crap in this country. They work their butts off to take care of us and our horses and get paid crap. None of us would work for what they do- that is why illegals are hired. But for some reason it is worth it to them to be here, so why would they want to leave? I don't blame them for not telling. Like many others have mentioned who would take their (an illegal persons) word over a white person? Not to mention many others are obviously staying quiet (vet, trainer)- people that would actually be reliable. I think the fact that the grooms in both cases told someone else should be prove that they care for the horses.

AZ- if you are worried about the groom then forwarn him that you are calling the authorities so that he won't be deported. Like, I said he obviously was asking for your help by telling you. He can get a job elsewhere.

Party Rose

Jun. 24, 2004, 09:53 PM

Thank you Wallace
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Wallace
Working Hunter

posted Jun. 24, 2004 08:32 PM
You should also report the Vet to the AAEP--the American Association of Equine Practioners (or something to that effect). Any vet who knowingly aids or ignores the murder of horses should be investigated and if found guilty, lose their license. They take an oath to protect and care for animals.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Without making this public, anyone that is aware of the situation is encouraging this behavior and then the ignorant feel that it is par for the course. DO NOT SUPPORT ANY PERSON, IN ANY WAY THAT HAS KNOWLEDGE OF, OR THAT IS INDIRECTLY OR DIRECTLY INVOLVED WITH HORSE MURDERS OR ABUSE IN ANY MANNER. DO NOT LET THEM THINK THAT IT IS CORRECT BEHAVIOR. REPORT THEM AND BE SURE THAT THE AUTHORITIES MAKE THE SITUATION VERY PUBLIC, SO THAT NO ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH ANYONE INVOLVED WITH, OR SUPPORT ANYONE THAT CONDONES THIS INSANE BEHAVIOR.

The last known number that I have for the AAEP is 606-233-0147 * * * PLEASE call them and ask for the Director.

Madame Butterfly

Jun. 24, 2004, 10:07 PM

Let me put it this way AZ, if this is just hearsay, and you didn't see it, or the other so-called incident, and there's no proof, then you better be careful what you say or write to third parties. Have you ever heard of libel or slander? If, however, you or someone else has proof of any kind, it is your responsibility as a horseman and as a human being to contact an authority of some kind that has already been mentioned by others in this thread. To vent without proof, just to talk and stir up a slanderous mess is, to me, not respectable. Gossip and rumour-mongering is low. Honesty, integrity and living up to responsibility without fear is couragous. And that's all I have to say, with all due respect, of course.

Ata

Jun. 24, 2004, 10:45 PM

Ok, I just started reading this now, so forgive me if I am dragging this out. I am utterly confused about you witnessing a horse being killed and you did nothing about it. What if you witnessed a person being killed?

Madame Butterfly

Jun. 24, 2004, 11:11 PM

Ata, plenty of people witness a person being killed and do nothing about it (ever hear of NYC)...so let's not even go there...the issue here is that AZ says there is no proof, won't give a name, does nothing about it...except talk. And talk is cheap. But action is frightening, and not everyone has it in them to walk the talk. And at this point, without proof, talking and writing on this thread can easily become not even libel...but slander...if the name of the person becomes known...or someone knows AZ and who she is talking about...and this is a very expensive lawsuit.

fleur

Jun. 25, 2004, 12:12 AM

actually MB i disagree. first of all azgirl can't post a name without published proof that it actually happened. clearly this is not the only case of killing horses for insurance so it's not like the BB needs to or is going to rise up against this one person. i think what we can use this thread for is to discuss in a hypothetical sense the drives of the industry that result in trainers committing insurance fraud in this way. what the BB can do is have meaningful discussions about the issue that could possibly prompt COTH to bring it to light in the print version. just an idea but IMO the more publicity it all gets, the better. however, i see no need for azgirl to dispense any more information than she already has. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

justgottaride

Jun. 25, 2004, 01:23 AM

you must report this to the insurance agency....or to a person you trust..if you love horses ..u will do this....otherwise another horse could be affected..

squeezix

Jun. 25, 2004, 05:09 AM

Lordhelpus,
Before calling me increadibly "naive," you might also want to give the illegal immigrant a little credit...

Madame Butterfly

Jun. 25, 2004, 05:33 AM

Fleur, I understand where you are coming from, and respect it. And, I don't expect AZ to release a name. However, it is very easy to accuse and spread rumours, and this is a very serious one. So, I was just suggesting that she be wary, because gossip, rumours and lies spread like wildfire. Thank you for your input...that was my only point. Respectfully...

Ata

Jun. 25, 2004, 06:26 AM

The thing is too, that she said other people know about it too. I am sure if a group of people went to the proper authoritys they would listen to them. Of course, I have never been involved in something like this...

Ketch

Jun. 25, 2004, 07:14 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Ata, plenty of people witness a person being killed and do nothing about it (ever hear of NYC)...so let's not even go there. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But does that make it okay?

There is no possible way in H that I would witness a horse being killed without doing anything about it.

Sswor

Jun. 25, 2004, 07:21 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> You should also report the Vet to the AAEP--the American Association of Equine Practioners (or something to that effect). Any vet who knowingly aids or ignores the murder of horses should be investigated and if found guilty, lose their license. They take an oath to protect and care for animals. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wish it was, but this isn't true. Dr Hugi was tried and convicted for wire fraud in connection with the killing for insurance money on more than one horse (he signed off on the ins. papers upon the death of more than one horse), and HE'S still in business as a vet and chiropractor. He even still has his own vet clinic, in the same area he was working in when convicted. The man did jail time and still has his vet license. His business seems to be thriving. Why anyone would use this man is beyond me.

Go-Go

Jun. 25, 2004, 07:23 AM

I agree with Ketch, and I grew up witnessing first hand MANY of the killings in Chicago. One summer show at Ledges, the barn across the aisle from us had two killer "colics" in one night, and I saw both dead horses. That's just the tip of the iceberg, too - one of my childhood friends had three horses die mysteriously in one summer - a horrid conspiracy between her wretched parents and the maniacal trainer. Even at my young age I knew what was up, so did my trainer, who did not stand idly by (God love him).

The ones that typically get into trouble are the ones that make a deal with the devil, not the ones that scream bloody murder. Fortunately, our OP seems to have made the good call to report it.

Ketch, I got your back, kiddo.

nycjumper

Jun. 25, 2004, 08:52 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Madame Butterfly:
Ata, plenty of people witness a person being killed and do nothing about it (ever hear of NYC).... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um - this is OT but I find that pretty danm offensive to NYers. Rest assured - I think most NYC residents would get involved if someone was being killed. And unless you live here - don't slam the city. Seriously. It just makes you look bad. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

As far as the other stuff - I agree with Lord Helpus. I'm a nobody in the horse world & I hear rumors about trainers. If no one in the know & with power speaks up, we shouldn't expect a groom (especially an illegal one) to do the dirty work.

Party Rose

Jun. 25, 2004, 09:48 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> He even still has his own vet clinic, in the same area he was working in when convicted. The man did jail time and still has his vet license. His business seems to be thriving. Why anyone would use this man is beyond me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well may be it is time for change. Late is better than never.
Why can't we, as horse lovers and owners, put the pressure on and see that no Veterinarian, trainer, owner, or anyone for that matter involved in any situation involving killing or abuse, NEVER work or be around horses in any manner ever again in their lifetime.

It is OUR responsibility to not support anyone involved. Not using their services is the best that we, non-authorities, can do to get the message across.

We can though, put the pressure on the AAEP and the Insurance Companies (do you like your rates rising due to them paying out enormous amounts for fraud cases?) and give the authorities all of the information that we may have that would help to put these people away.

I just don't think that enough has been done to make crimes as this not acceptable. If the message had been relayed correctly, then the practice would have stopped.

If this is indeed yet another case, then I think that now is the time to stand up, speak our minds and get something done to improve our industry.

Party Rose

Jun. 25, 2004, 09:59 AM

Another thought that has really bothered me, and I could be very wrong, so please correct me if I am incorrect in my thinking here.

I always felt that though in the case 10'ish years ago, that the government tried to nail one person and make him an example that wealth doesn't excuse crime sort of senario, that it was 95% based on trying to convict someone for the murder of Helen Brach.

It just seemed that from a court standpoint that the horse industry and it's goings ons, was just a vehicle to try to get someone put away for Mrs. Brach's murder.

Does anyone else feel this way? Do I just not have enough fact?

Go-Go

Jun. 25, 2004, 10:08 AM

PR, I don't know about that, but I can understand where you are coming from. I think that because some of the characters involved were also linked to the Brach case it may have seemed that way, but I remember the interviews - nearly everyone over 18 that may have even had a week connection to the cases was interviewed - and they were looking for anything and everything they could find - Brach, insurance, murder, whatever. I think they found so much at once they didn't know what to do with it all, and of course the press loved the Brach angle so they played that up.

I don't think the welfare of the horses was primary on the list of motivating factors for prosecution; indeed, insurance fraud was because that's really what they could get most of these guys on.

And, it was nearly 15 years ago now that they started looking into it - yipes!

Party Rose

Jun. 25, 2004, 10:20 AM

Go-Go: My thoughts are that the insurance fraud cases came out of evidence found from the investigation of the Brach case? What other information do you have to share that's a matter of public record? Fact only, so we don't spread rumors. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Go-Go

Jun. 25, 2004, 10:27 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Party Rose:
Go-Go: My thoughts are that the insurance fraud cases came out of evidence found from the investigation of the Brach case? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, it didn't. The Brach case had been going on for quite some time and then the insurance cases came up separately, but had some of the same characters. It's all a matter of public record, and if you are really interested you can look it up - it's actually very interesting.

Go-Go

Jun. 25, 2004, 10:40 AM

And furthermore, I hardly need to spread rumors - nothing I could make up would ever top the lurid truth!

Janet

Jun. 25, 2004, 10:44 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Party Rose said:

Why can't we, as horse lovers and owners, put the pressure on and see that no Veterinarian, trainer, owner, or anyone for that matter involved in any situation involving killing or abuse, NEVER work or be around horses in any manner ever again in their lifetime. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Every time someone here suggests that it would be a good idea to "not have dealings" with someone who has been convicted and banned because of insurance killings, there is a very vocal consituant that speaks up in their favor.
I see you only joined in March of this year, so you have missed them- the most recent being about the selection of such a person as the judge for a prestigious, but not USEF recognized, equitation class.

A search on the initials PV will allow you to experience the previous discussions on this subject, so we don't have to go through it all over again (though we probably will anyway).

Jun. 25, 2004, 10:59 AM

nycjumper

In response to your post- I don't think MB was saying that NYCers would overlook a murder, I think "NYC" was referencing a famous case years ago in which people witnessed a murder and did nothing to stop it. The case got (and still gets!) a lot of attention.

But I'm with you- if I thought anyone was bashing my city, I'd be the first to defend it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

xegeba

Jun. 25, 2004, 11:18 AM

nyc and BB, I think Madame would have been better off picking Watts as an example of "hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ORP

Jun. 25, 2004, 11:21 AM

Um, I'm sorry. Did you actually witness this horse getting killed? Because I find it extremely hard to fathom how someone could stand and watch a horse - or anything - get murdered. If it was, in fact, more like you were at the barn one day and the horse was there, and the next it had died mysteriously, then this inital post is completely unwarranted and this thread should stop immediately.

re: the Brach / Lindemann case. Yes, the DA was looking for information on the Brach murder and stumbled across the Sandman. The Brach case was never solved, but he did score a big coup by "exposing" the horse show world.

Seahorsefarmtobe

Jun. 25, 2004, 11:55 AM

Party Rose, I, too, wrote down Reagan's quote (your sig line) when I heard it... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Lord Helpus

Jun. 25, 2004, 12:16 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by seahorsefarms:
Party Rose, I, too, wrote down Reagan's quote (your sig line) when I heard it... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In the interests of accuracy, since I am sure that RR was not intending to plagerize when he said it, he was actually quoting Winston Churchill.

I don't know if Churchill was quoting someone else; the earliest person I have heard it attributed to is Churchill. If someone has a Bartlett's Familiar Quotations handy, perhaps they could look it up.

SillyHorse

Jun. 25, 2004, 12:16 PM

That quote has been attributed to everyone from Will Rogers to Mark Twain to Winston Churchill. I seriously doubt that Reagan came up with it.

Party Rose

Jun. 25, 2004, 12:29 PM

Hey Go-Go: Thanks for the info. Also, I put the smiley in there so no one would think the devil of me. I like to keep things in life to fact only. There is more than enough rumor that destroys, that we are surrounded by.

Seahorsefarms: The gut that I have felt for my entire life. Great opportunity to voice my soul.

Janet: You really do not have your facts straight. I think that you looked at someone elses profile, not mine, as March of this year is not correct. Look again at my profile:<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Member Profile for Party Rose Edit Profile
Date Registered: Jan. 31, 2003 09:42 PM <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> And that too is incorrect information. I have been on the boards for many more years, but when my hard drive died, I lost all of my info, did not know my passwords, etc...so I just started over, not caring about "my numbers". So no, I have not "missed them".

Please also expand on this comment, as I am clueless, or else brain dead! <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I see you only joined in March of this year, so you have missed them- the most recent being about the selection of such a person as the judge for a prestigious, but not USEF recognized, equitation class. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The only thing that I can think of is that you indeed pulled up someone elses profile.

You know that this subject will never end, even if the killings end. Unfortunatly, it is a part of our history. So don't stress yourself over the fact that it is here. And why the heck are you stressing over it, by going to it and becomming involved if you want the thread closed. I HATE stress and will walk away from any thread that is picking an arguement. I was mearly asking Go-Go for some informational fact so that I could piece some more together and to keep FACTS straight.

Party Rose

Jun. 25, 2004, 12:36 PM

Thank you ladies for the correction. I changed it to quote Winston Churchill, until, or if I/you find yet another person that the quote originated from. Thanks again.

Janet

Jun. 25, 2004, 12:42 PM

I just did a quick Google search. A couple of people attributed it to Shakespeare (but didn't cite a specific playm so I am not convinced).

But the earilest credible citation I found is 18th century British statesman Lord Palmerston, though most of the citations have a slightly different wording "the best thing for the inside of a man is the outside of a horse."

Flycatcher

Jun. 25, 2004, 12:48 PM

Shakespeare wrote in Richard III, I believe:
A horse! A horse! My kingdon for a horse!

Party Rose

Jun. 25, 2004, 12:56 PM

Thanks Janet. I actually like that better and have made my change.

Janet

Jun. 25, 2004, 12:59 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Party Rose:

_Janet:_ You really do not have your facts straight. I think that you looked at someone elses profile, not mine, as March of this year is not correct. Look again at my profile:<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Member Profile for Party Rose Edit Profile
Date Registered: Jan. 31, 2003 09:42 PM <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> And that too is incorrect information. I have been on the boards for many more years, but when my hard drive died, I lost all of my info, did not know my passwords, etc...so I just started over, not caring about "my numbers". So no, I have not "missed them".

Please also expand on this comment, as I am clueless, or else brain dead! <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I see you only joined in March of this year, so you have missed them- the most recent being about the selection of such a person as the judge for a prestigious, but not USEF recognized, equitation class. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The only thing that I can think of is that you indeed pulled up someone elses profile.

You know that this subject will never end, even if the killings end. Unfortunatly, it is a part of our history. So don't stress yourself over the fact that it is here. And why the heck are you stressing over it, by going to it and becomming involved if you want the thread closed. I _HATE_ stress and will walk away from any thread that is picking an arguement. I was mearly asking Go-Go for some informational fact so that I could piece some more together and to keep FACTS straight. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> My apologies. I didn't pull up your profile, I was reading the tag at the end of the post. But I must have misread it/ read the wrong one. Again, I apologize.

No, I have no desire to close this thread. We have a CURRENT issue to address.

But I would like to avoid rehashing the semiannual PV and BW threads about forgiveness and starting over, and the quality of the training being more important than the sins of the past.

In fact, I COMPLETELY agree with you about shunning those involved in horse killing. But I don't want to let that argument take over THIS thread.

Party Rose

Jun. 25, 2004, 01:11 PM

Janet: Thanks so much for the nice reply.

I am so glad that we are on the same train of thought. And yes, I do not want to rehash what has already been put through the grinder, for the upteenth time. It is a very sensitive subject for me and even more so, as one of the primary people involved had been a parent figure to me as a child.

Not only here, but in every arena of our industry, your comment should be addressed and taken care of, once and for all. It should be EVERYONES #1 PRIORITY.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> We have a CURRENT issue to address. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Go-Go

Jun. 25, 2004, 01:43 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ORP:
re: the Brach / Lindemann case. Yes, the DA was looking for information on the Brach murder and stumbled across the Sandman. The Brach case was never solved, but he did score a big coup by "exposing" the horse show world. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's not how it happened, actually. No one "stumbled" on Tommy Burns - (trust me, you didn't have to "stumble" on Tommy - he was wide out in the open) he was already being investigated in conjunction with the insurance fraud cases. Again, the records are all public, and a lot of the news shows that did specials on the cases took some pretty big liberties with connecting them.

Madame Butterfly

Jun. 25, 2004, 06:54 PM

I've been to some pretty great cities...here and in Europe....NYC is to me still the greatest city in the world (definitely has the best restaurants and clothing stores and doctors...what else could you ask for...) But the fact remains...people are often scared to get involved...not just there, everywhere...but it sticks out like a sore thumb there, in Watts (thanks X...) Don't kid yourself, it happens in small towns too...

Why would I bash NYC -- I had a great time there...don't want to live there anymore...Been there, done that...

xegeba

Jun. 25, 2004, 06:56 PM

I thought you were getting in the bath!

Madame Butterfly

Jun. 25, 2004, 08:29 PM

I had to answer this one....anyway, I did, .....and now, I'm bac-c-c-k....hot water made me so sleepy I fell asleep until mumsy woke me up on the telly...

Mumsy: I tried to reach you a half hour ago...
MB: Oh yeah, I guess I was sleeping...
Mumsy: Oh I'm sorry, honey, I'll let you go back to sleep....
MB: Okay.... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif but typing...

phxrayneigh

Jun. 25, 2004, 08:48 PM

Azgirl- are you from Arizona?

Party Rose

Jun. 25, 2004, 08:55 PM

I was wondering where Azgirl was today. HUM!!! Showing?

Ata

Jun. 25, 2004, 10:58 PM

What part of AZ are you in? I live in Chandler. phxrayneigh, I'm assuming you live in Phx. Do you guys ride at a barn or on your own?

phxrayneigh

Jun. 26, 2004, 05:29 AM

AZgirl, I have heard about this story, but don't know any facts.
Ata, I live in Chandler too, however I ride in Scottsdale.

dkcbr

Jun. 26, 2004, 05:38 AM

Just throwing in that I believe the New York reference may be to the infamous Kitty Genovese case (maybe from the 1960s?) in which a young woman was being murdered and no one did anything to help her. This happened to have occurred in New York City, but of course could have happened just about anywhere in the world.

Reference to the story has often been used over the years as a shorthand to invoke the phenomenon in which someone is attacked and people do nothing/won't get involved.

Mav226

Jun. 26, 2004, 09:05 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Madame Butterfly:
Ata, plenty of people witness a person being killed and do nothing about it (ever hear of NYC)....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Um - this is OT but I find that pretty danm offensive to NYers. Rest assured - I think most NYC residents would get involved if someone was being killed. And unless you live here - don't slam the city. Seriously. It just makes you look bad.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe it was the Kitty Genovese case (as dkcbr pointed out)that the first poster was refering to. That was obviously not a bash to NYC...just a historical reference. There was a woman beaten to death in the courtyard of her apartment complex. The beating went on for over an hour (assailent left and came back to continue his crime). Of the 40+ residents whose windows faced the center, none called the police. All had windows open as it was summer and building had no AC. Many of them admitted witnessing her brutal murder but not a single one went to help her or called the police.

Just wanted to clarify the situation. Although I'm not 100% positive on the specifics, that is roughly how the situation occured.

Janet

Jun. 26, 2004, 10:40 AM

And was the motivation for the Phil Ochs song "Outside of a Small Circle of Friends".

YankeeLawyer

Jun. 26, 2004, 11:25 AM

My thoughts exactly. They teach the Genovese case in law school. I think that scenario is also why many self-defense classes teach women to scream "Fire" rather than "Rape" if they are attacked.

Ata

Jun. 26, 2004, 12:38 PM

First time I ever heard of the NYC case and it truly seems unreal to me. That's crazy, over an hour and no one called the police. I have to go research this now.

SpringBreak

Jun. 26, 2004, 05:22 PM

It's true...

neutral milk hotel

Jun. 26, 2004, 06:52 PM

I think they did a cover-ish thing of that story on Law & Order...

( I watch too much TV! )

ridesoftly

Jun. 26, 2004, 07:26 PM

If it truly wasn't an accident, then they should throw the book at the trainer.

Another point that I'd love to draw to everyone's attention is that the quieter that everyone is about these issues, the more that we all pay in insurance premiums!

Insurance fraud costs all of us very dearly in increased premiums each year.

Party Rose

Jun. 27, 2004, 09:18 AM

itstoomuch Ditto...........
As I said a few pages back<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> [B]We can though, put the pressure on the AAEP and the Insurance Companies (do you like your rates rising due to them paying out enormous amounts for fraud cases?) and give the authorities all of the information that we may have that would help to put these people away.[/B <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If we keep harping on this FACT, then people will have more modivation to put an end to this horid practice, which is more prevalent than we all know.

nycjumper

Jun. 28, 2004, 06:31 AM

Quick notes & then I'll stop hijacking
a) the Genovese case was in the 60s - quite a long time ago
b) it is widely argued that in fact many of the very disturbing facts of the case are in fact wrong. The new reporter who wrote the story took a few comments and put together a story that indicted the entire neighborhood for apathy. In fact, very few people were aware of the attack, it didn't last for an hour, people did call the police, etc.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Darden

Jun. 28, 2004, 09:08 AM

nycjumper- okay. But I am still horrified that my chances of getting help when being attacked are better if I scream "fire" rather than "rape."

Unbelievable.

Waiting for the update on this insurance case...

C. Biederman

Jun. 28, 2004, 11:13 AM

Okay, azgirl, here's your chance.

PT me with details and I'll make sure the proper authorities check it out.

rileyt

Jun. 28, 2004, 12:04 PM

OK... I just hate this.

I think AZGirl is a huge troll (probably some teenager with nothing better to do between study halls like Musical Jumper). Why? Her little story does not ring at all true to me...

Your explanation that when you went to the authorities 12 years ago, and they did nothing with the information becuase it was a "he said/she said thing" ... or because it was "hearsay" reeks to me of someone who has watched The Practice too many times on TV but has never been involved in the legal system.

In the legal world, had you REALLY seen someone kill a horse and then collect the insurance money... we would call you an EYEWITNESS, and I guarantee you would be the STAR of the prosecution's case. This blather about how it all got investigated but nothing happened is a load of crap. Insurance fraud is a very serious crime, had you actually seen what you say you saw, and reported it as you say you did,... at the very least there would've been a trial... but probably a guilty conviction.

C. Biederman, if this girl pt-s you with any details I'll eat my hat.

AZgirl, go play somewhere else... we're all tired of the trolls here.

Sorry folks, I'll be the first to admit I could be wrong,... but I'm gonna call it like I see it... There are too many teens with too much time on their hands, and I'm tired of watching the nice people on this board getting taken for a ride because someone is bored.

rileyt

Jun. 28, 2004, 12:13 PM

Don't misunderstand me AZgirl. I believe that these things happen. I just don't believe you've seen any such thing. As for other people who "know about this situation".. which posters said that? You've give SO much detail about your situation... I can imagine LOTS of people know about it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

ridesoftly

Jun. 28, 2004, 12:31 PM

I really don't think it is a teen with too much time on their hands this time anyway. If you will look at her first post, you will see that she went here to vent and wasn't really trying to stir things up.

The rest of the board did that when they showed outrage at how someone could kill a horse for insurance money.

Personally, I think it happens more than we all like to admit and until someone comes along and goes to the authorities, it will continue...

Now, this could be a total accident that looks bad. It also could be a hit that looks like an accident too. If the trainer has nothing to hide, then he/she should welcome an investigation and clear the air.

I know that in this situation, my trainer would welcome the investigators. It is only those who have things to hide that don't.

rileyt

Jun. 28, 2004, 12:34 PM

The poster on page 6 just said she had heard of such stories (as we all have)... that doesn't lend credence to your account in my mind.

And, re-reading your "story".. you AND a friend witnessed this killing? Wow, TWO eye witnesses and still no case huh? What a shame.

I'm sure YOU'D be better off if I clammed up since I have nothing nice to say... but me? I'd rather hunt trolls.

And guess what? If YOU actually saw JACK... you're not going to get in legal trouble for saying what you saw (and naming names). Truth is an absolute defense against libel and slander... but its far more convenient to hide behind your legal fears.

I say put up or shut up. Give us the facts or go away and play elsewhere... troll.

rileyt

Jun. 28, 2004, 12:44 PM

Well, how about some facts about what you saw twelve years ago?

Oh, and don't worry about explaining the law to me... I'm pretty sure I've got that all figured out.

Ketch

Jun. 28, 2004, 12:46 PM

Then how about posting info about the incident you witnessed 12 years ago?

I'm with rileyt on this one. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Ketch

Jun. 28, 2004, 12:47 PM

rileyt, we must have posted at the same time. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

I agree, if you actually witnessed it 12 years ago, and truth is an absolute defense to an action for libel or slander, then why not post more facts? I have read this entire thread and still have only a very sketchy idea of what may or may not have happened to these horses.

rileyt

Jun. 28, 2004, 12:51 PM

Ketch... let me tell you what I think has happened.

A person (we'll call her Jane) reads an article about some horse dying of oleander poisoning. Now, maybe Jane has nothing better to do, or Jane is suspicious, or maybe Jane even knows the trainer who's horse it is, (whom Jane doesn't like)... and so Jane decides to add a little to the already swirling rumors. Lest she be accused of rumor-mongering, Jane decides to come up with some "VERIFIABLE FACTS" (that aren't so verifiable) so that she'll be taken seriously. So Jane cries "I SAW IT MYSELF! THE MAN IS A HORSE KILLER!" but, strangely, the only facts Jane can relay are those that were made public in the recent newspaper article.

How do you like MY story? Plausible?

rileyt

Jun. 28, 2004, 12:58 PM

uh huh.

Ketch

Jun. 28, 2004, 01:00 PM

Yes. Very plausible. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

What makes her story two VCR's short of a pawn shop, for me, is a) the lack of details and b) that this poster only had one or two posts. Um, not sure the way I'd introduce myself to a bunch of strangers would be to say, hey, guess what I saw and didn't report?

Edited to add: azgirl, I am not trying to attack you, but as other posters mentioned, this is a very sensitive subject for a number of COTH-ers; if you really witnessed this, then details should be made public and action should be taken.

Go-Go

Jun. 28, 2004, 01:04 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ketch:
two VCR's short of a pawn shop <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's funny.

xegeba

Jun. 28, 2004, 01:21 PM

Here is what I'm struggling with and maybe I've missed something(this would not be shocking)Does the trainer own these horses? What is the motivation? You said the horse that died 12 yrs ago was your friends horse. Trainer wouldn't collect on that, unless he just wanted to make another sale. If he just wants to make another sale, business must be really, really slow.

GatoGordo

Jun. 28, 2004, 01:45 PM

I quote, from the FAQ section,
"Under no circumstances may you allege that any specific individual or organization has done anything illegal, unethical or abusive, unless what you're saying has been documented as fact in court or in print somewhere (bulletin boards don't count!) and you can back your statements up."

So, the fact that truth is a defense against libel/slander does not mean you can do so on COTH. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ketch

Jun. 28, 2004, 01:47 PM

If she reported it at the time, it should be in print somewhere. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

xegeba

Jun. 28, 2004, 01:49 PM

Why would the trainer off her friends horse? azgirl? Anybody? Did I ask a dumb question?

xegeba

Jun. 28, 2004, 02:01 PM

GOGO?

C. Biederman

Jun. 28, 2004, 02:03 PM

Hey everyone--

"Under no circumstances may you allege that any specific individual or organization has done anything illegal, unethical or abusive..."

As far as I can tell, AZ girl has NOT alleged that any "specific individual or organization" has done something--certainly not by name.

I think you guys need to back off a bit. It seems to me that AZ girl has been pretty specific about something she witnessed, and that maybe, just maybe, she IS sounding off on this board out of conscience and/or frustration, in the hope that something can or will be done.

In fact, if she saw what she says she saw, I'd say she has a moral duty to sound the alarms.

WatersEdge

Jun. 28, 2004, 02:08 PM

Wow...I think there are some VERY naive people here. First off I know nothing about azgirl's particular situation, but I do KNOW that having proof of an illegal activity or situation doesn't mean the *bad guy* in the situation will be prosecuted or held accountable. There are MANY, MANY situations when the *bad guys* get away with doing things they shouldn't be doing even when there is PROOF. I myself have proof of a company I worked for committing fraudulent activity (stealing money from thousands of people). Yes I turned them in to the authorities along with my BLACK & WHITE proof. Are they in jail or being held accountable? NOPE. 33,000+ innocent "customers" are out $300. The company simply closed the business and re-opened under a new name...

Don't be so naive people! Open your mind. Our justice system isn't perfect & sometimes it just DOESN’T matter how much proof you have…

Azgirl: I don't think you are a troll at all. I'm sure this kind of thing happens more then people want to admit.

phxrayneigh

Jun. 28, 2004, 06:23 PM

think about it, the trainer was probably getting rid of a horse that wasn't performing up to par. If the trainer recommended that this customer buy the horse for big bucks and it wasn't working out,easy way out, collect insurance. Seems possible to me! Isn't that the case with George Lindeman's horse Charisma? Huge insurence policy horse wasn't worth it anymore, bam, it dies, collect the money. Thats why they do it.

JusJumpIt

Jun. 28, 2004, 07:04 PM

I see so many young children and their unsuspecting parents getting into the sport and choosing the 'wrong' trainers. I wonder what they would think if they knew that their big name trainer is a horse killer, among other things.

Not all those parents or owners are as "unsuspecting" as you think.
I get mad when there is a loud public outcry when a horseperson is caught hooking battery cables to a horses nose and rectum, yet we are willing to sit back and let people "kill" their horses slowly.
I think a lot more owners or parents know their trainers are giving their horses substances that can kill their horses. I find it hard to believe an owner can have their horses get caught not once, but twice with cocaine, and not think the trainer was responsible. Continue to have that person take charge of their horses care. More owners know what is going on. We also belong to an association that is willing to give a person a light, slap on the wrist, for using drugs they give mental patients, or give their horses ACTH to the extent the horse not only founders, but their entire endocrine system shuts down. These people are also killing their horses, and often with full knowledge of the owners. Yet they are willing to pay legal fees to prevent actions against them, or the USEF willing to say, shame, shame to someone that runs with the right crowd.

Killing horses for money is a symptom of a disease, it is the entire disease we must object to, not just parts of it.

xegeba

Jun. 28, 2004, 07:48 PM

JusJump... what is ACTH?

Erin

Jun. 29, 2004, 11:05 AM

Ketch and rileyt, lay off.

The OP is doing the EXACT right thing by not posting the details of what happened. In fact, I've removed the few details she did provide because the exact circumstances of this situation are NOT the point. Geez, for once someone is actually trying to go along with the "issues not individuals" stuff, and two lawyers try to talk her out of it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Leave the moderating to the moderators, please.

HiJumpGrrl

Jun. 29, 2004, 11:18 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by xegeba:
JusJump... what is ACTH? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
a pituitary hormone that stimulates the adrenal gland. is that what we're talking about?

Disgusted

Jun. 29, 2004, 06:19 PM

To AZgirl:
As a person close to the situation you have described, I feel compelled to set the record straight for you and the world.
You have one fact straight. A horse did die. It was not a lame horse, not an unsuccessful show horse. It was a very nice, sound, well-loved horse. His death was tragic and accidental.
This situation has been extremely difficult for everyone involved. It has been sad and emotionally draining. To have to read your vague but malicious rumor mongoring just makes it that much worse. I say go back to your soap operas if you need this kind of vicious nonsense and drama to entertain yourself.
I've ridden, shown, and loved horses all my life and am well aware of the bad image the show horse industry has with the general public. I firmly believe that this image is perpetuated by people like yourself who care nothing about facts but instead spout misguided, self-rightous sensationalism born of jealousy and self-hatred.
Your so-called "venting" has simply caused more pain. Hope YOU feel better.

brinkos

Jun. 29, 2004, 06:50 PM

Bravo Disgusted!! I wonder how AZgirl would feel if her horse died and it was posted on a chat room that she had done it. She might think twice before pointing that superior finger. Gossip ruins peoples lives.

I LIKE PONIES!!!

Jun. 29, 2004, 07:02 PM

this thread has just gotten way to weird for me... trolls, no they're not trolls, disgused and brinkos here just to snark at AZ girl, or not i dont even know, but this is pretty stange...
i dont know mabye its just me http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Silly Mommy

Jun. 29, 2004, 07:23 PM

Fact: People still kill horses for insurance money.

Fact: There are way too many brand spanking new identities presently on here to warrant any further discussion.

Sorry you have been put in this situation azgirl, and I understand your need to vent - this place can be very friendly and supportive at times, but newbies are guarded with suspicion and too readily labeled trolls. The prejudice was created by a few bad apples, and unfortunately it has created a bias for all others.

I suspect you post here under another name as well, otherwise you wouldn't have felt compelled to post this here, under an alter.

Pass the popcorn http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif