Do H/J people want to learn about breeding & pedigrees?

[KWF]

I am a small breeder who rides H/J and some dressage, I am trying to figure out if H/J riders are wanting to learn more about the top pedigrees and breeding lines. The dressage riders as a whole are much more interested in this area, but the H/J riders seem to be lacking behind. Don't quite know why this is, but probably stems from the trainers.

Anyway, as a breeder, rider and member of regional & national breeding organizations I am on the show committees and am wanting to work on educating H/J riders at the shows about breeding (not the acutal process of breeding but of bloodlines, etc). Wondering if you all can help me on some ideas on doing this in a way that people will be interested and attend.

Some thoughts I had were to have the in hand breeding classes held at the time of a dinner/recreational activity at the bigger shows. Have pamphlets to hand out the the in hand classes.

Any other thoughts from those of you who ride & show but don't breed would really help us breeders to give/teach you what you all are looking to know.

If you feel this is all worthless and H/J riders just don't care...then I'd like to know that too...why waste our time.

[KWF]

I am a small breeder who rides H/J and some dressage, I am trying to figure out if H/J riders are wanting to learn more about the top pedigrees and breeding lines. The dressage riders as a whole are much more interested in this area, but the H/J riders seem to be lacking behind. Don't quite know why this is, but probably stems from the trainers.

Anyway, as a breeder, rider and member of regional & national breeding organizations I am on the show committees and am wanting to work on educating H/J riders at the shows about breeding (not the acutal process of breeding but of bloodlines, etc). Wondering if you all can help me on some ideas on doing this in a way that people will be interested and attend.

Some thoughts I had were to have the in hand breeding classes held at the time of a dinner/recreational activity at the bigger shows. Have pamphlets to hand out the the in hand classes.

Any other thoughts from those of you who ride & show but don't breed would really help us breeders to give/teach you what you all are looking to know.

If you feel this is all worthless and H/J riders just don't care...then I'd like to know that too...why waste our time.

[Rubs Not Pats]

I like the program idea but it may be hard to impliment. Here at least most enter the morning of the show, so that would creat a logistical nightmare. Announcing pedigrees and or name might also cause concern and people yelling "politics" from the rail. Can't please everyone! You could however, announce this info when the class results are finalized.

[ComingAttraction]

No, we do not really have the time to care because we take all of the cast offs from the other disciplines and try to give them a career in ours. We are able to do this because we have far more people in our discipline than in other disciplines and can generally find a place for them. H/J (or hunt seat) riders range from the USET level to the back yard pleasure rider. If they do not make it as a dressage horse we can try hunters, if they don't make it at the track we can try jumpers, if they do not make it in those we can try hunting, pleasure, etc. If they are not "A" show quality we can try "B", "C", or local shows.
So this would be my guess as to why we are not as interested in breeding. If you polled our group however I would guess that the numbers would be closer than you think.

[findeight]

If a H/J owner is buying a youngster? They care about bloodline.
If they are buying a stallion? They care.
If they are buying a mare with an eye toward eventual breeding? They care.

If they are buying a 12 year old gelding to do Juniors with? They don't care.

Knowledge of bloodline is fine and more of us know more then many seem to think BUT most buyers buy the jump and the show ring experience/record, not bloodline.

The show world in general is largely populated by parents who buy a horse for the kid to compete until it is sold when they go to college. They have no intention of breeding and care nothing about pedigree. Even at the breed shows where breeding is public knowledge, many really don't care.

"Good horses always have good parents but good parents do not always make good horses" is an old saying in the breeding business. Good parents can give their offspring a better chance at it but so much more is early training and attitude-and attitude is influenced by early training.

So we look at the jump, at the horse, at his show record, at his attitude and maybe at who his parents are but breeding is the least important if the horse can do the job.

[ComingAttraction]

Very well put find eight, another view that is quite true.

[findeight]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ComingAttraction:
No, we do not really have the time to care because we take all of the cast offs from the other disciplines and try to give them a career in ours.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We posted at almost the same time or I would have led with this quote.
From failed racehorses to Eventers that hate jumping into water to a Dressage hopeful that can't piaffe to a QH who just ended up with a Hunt Seat owner, we get them all...and at a price most can afford.

While breeders are increasingly contributing horses specifically bred to win in the Hunters, they are still in the minority and, like other disiplines, winning on the line does not translate automatically into winning over fences.
Expensive too.

[MsHunter]

I hate to say it, but NO people (professionals)
don't care. We have sold or have had offers many a time at ringside and it was because of appearance and/or movement etc. After the fact, of course, we told the potential buyers who it was by and out of, and maybe they knew ofa horse or two by that stallion or not, but it wasn't going to influence the decision or the amount of money paid for said horse like it would in the TB sale ring. We as a whole need to focus on what the dams have produced NOT who the sires are.

[MsHunter]

Another topic that should be opened up for discussion in the future is one of "what wins on the line in the Hunter Breeding Ring" is not the same "type" of horse that will win a Conformation Model Class. We need to work on our judging criteria if this is the case. I have heard this from MANY prominent "AA" circuit judges.. Scary but true.

[findeight]

Absolutely. The MARE raises the baby and baby learns by watching the mare.

[KWF]

Thanks for the opinions...unfortunately what you all have said is what I thought would be said. I agree what they do in the ring is what's important, however it's not by mistake that the same breeding lines continue to show up in the USEF year end points (leading sires). So really breeding does matter in the top rated horses, maybe not at the smaller shows.

I think it's absolutely rediculous that H/J riders (actually it's more the hunters than the jumpers) riders don't even want to learn and be educated. Why should anyone ever want to limit their knowledge? Most jumper riders and trainers are knowledgeable about breeding, b/c they know breeding is the fundamental thing in addition to training that will make a Grand Prix horse...

[NumberTenOx]

I'm glad that someone is interested in pedigrees; I'm sorry but I'm not. Can the horse jump?

[Smiles]

Most people care about the brand than they do the breeding behind it. I have to say when someone is looking to purchase a new mount they are looking for physical features over the breeding. Sometimes the horses papers are not transfered or "lost" so they won't know what the breeding behind the horse anyway. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif I like to know, but would it cause me to pick one horse over another because of it, no. The reason is I would be more concerned about present performance on said horse than how it's parents did.

[Duffy]

I have never NOT asked and been interested in the breeding of any horse I've looked at/purchased. But, I've always liked the horse first, asked about his/her breeding second. I have never bought purely based on breeding.

[hunt_jump]

I hate to say it, but in my mind the USEF leading sire records are only good to a certain point. If riders and trainers do not care about the breeding of a horse how many of the USEF registered horses out showing do you think actually have their sire/dam/breeding listed in their registration? Many times even the registered horses in the hunter world don't have papers with them. I would like to think that as more people are actually breeding for the hunter ring specifically that this will change, but I'm not holding my breath.

[findeight]

I started in breed shows and can talk pedigree and influence in several. Very familiar with TB too, I like to go to the track. While it's fun to see famous parents in my own horse's pedigree it's not a deciding factor when buying.

A big issue with us versus the breed shows is we really don't have the young horses. Most of us don't buy youngsters and can guage talent with actual results without having to use who the parents are to guess if it will or will not be able to do what we want. If it can do it and suits us, what matter the parents?

Hate to say it but have seen way too many hopes dashed when pricey and well bred babies flunked out when tried for the intended purpose. Seen perfectly conformed animals with a pedigree that screams Hunter never bend a joint over a fence while others bred specifically for something else break in half with knees to eyeballs.
Heard too many sales spiels about the grandsire's half sister's dam being short listed for the such and so team.

So I will look at who the sire is and what kind of horse the dam is AFTER I see it go...and maybe AFTER I buy it.

[Bumpkin]

Back in the 70's around here there were several TB Stallions that consistently sired wonderful Hunters and Jumpers. At that time, trainers did look for these bloodlines when they came to the track to buy horses or when they bred mares they had. Names like Doctrine, Pan Man, Hitter and Kaneoehe Bay.
Who sired some Olympic horses, Sundancer, Old English, Man A'live, Diamond Jim. (off the top of my head, I know there were dozens more).
Coming back into it since then, I don't see it as much, if at all.
Most breeding is aimed at WB lines and not TB.

[sit up]

Well, from what I can see, it really doesn't matter what the horse is bred like. For hunters and jumpers, performance is everything.

There are just so few people who buy horses as babies. The vast majority of the hunter sales business is for MADE horses.

A lot of professionals are on the road too much and just don't have the time to bring along a baby. Most of the money in the hunter industry is also for juniors. Mom and Dad aren't going to spend money for a horse their kid can't ride for another year or two. They can take a little green (say a pregreen horse to eventually do the juniors) but aren't for the most part buying something for their kid that is getting ready for the baby greens.

So, breeding is just for that, the breeders. If you see a combination that works well, and makes nice performance horses, continue to breed that.

We as the consumer don't care if it is out of so and so and by big name stallion. If it doesn't perform, there won't be a market for it.

[OnyxThePony]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I think it's absolutely rediculous that H/J riders (actually it's more the hunters than the jumpers) riders don't even want to learn and be educated. Why should anyone ever want to limit their knowledge <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Same way it might be rediculous for a breeder to not consider that we actually do know, and are knowledgable (and how much is there to know.. hunter breeder is comparitively limited) yet we chose to base our decisions on what matters to us in the finite versus the intangible?

[KWF]

I am not only asking from a hunter standpoint but used the term H/J b/c I was referring to both hunters and jumpers.

[MsHunter]

Findeight. Your so right. Scary how bad SO MANY horses can jump. Isn't that exactly why a horse that jumps a 10 costs $$,$$$ and a horse that is easy to ride, jumps a 10, moves a 10, and is pretty can cost $$$,$$$?

That is what I aim at producing. Let me just tell you that if anything I breed isn't going to jump WELL it is being sold relatively inexpensively, but typically I will take the time to get it broke and going if not sold early on, to hopefully recoup some of my expenses.

Trainers and professionals will come see our young horses if they TRUST that we don't always say 'Yes, it moves and jumps great", when in reality it DOES NOT!!

You have to earn peoples respect as a breeder and that doesn't come by Breeding to popular stallions and or winning a million line classes.

The USEF List of leading sires and breeders
can be scary. The top horses can be mentioned with having only produced ONE horse that went to 5 million shows. However it is a step in the right direction, and hopefully smart people are smart about how they view the database!

I hope to gain a reputation one day as a breeder of nice hunter horses. Not a breeder who won a bunch of line classes and or has horses by such and such stallion or this premium stuff. Sorry. I just want mine to move and jump good!

[Hidden Hill Farm]

Plumstead, I completely agree!
I just want nice horses that move and jump well. However, the way I try to accomplish this is by picking my bloodlines carefully.

Unfortunately, most trainers don't really understand that a Ramiro-Alme colt out of a line bred Nimmerdor mare should be able to jump great merely by accident!!! The sad thing is that most trainers just don't care. They would pay the same amount of money for a horse by someone's back yard stallion or rather offer me the same price that they would pay for the back yard horse. Our bloodlines are getting better and better and imagine that... our horses are getting nicer and nicer.... funny how that works, but still most trainers don't even want to know the difference.

I am hoping that someday people realize that the reason the Europeans were so far ahead of us was simply that they bred the NICEST MARES (not crappy broken down mares) to the NICEST stallions and kept improving their bloodlines.

Bloodlines are incredibly important -- look at race horses, for example. I'm NOT saying that there aren't nice horses out there with terrible bloodlines. Nor am I saying that all horses by great mares and great stallions turn out great. But what I am saying is that if you do a test and breed 100 grade mares to 100 mediocre stallions and then breed 100 fantastically well bred mares to 100 great stallions, the group will the excellent bloodlines will produce far more great foals. If you don't have anything else to go on, go on bloodlines.

[Illyria]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hidden Hill Farm:
The sad thing is that most trainers just don't care. They would pay the same amount of money for a horse by someone's back yard stallion or rather offer me the same price that they would pay for the back yard horse. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And why shouldn't they, if both horses are equally (more or less) athletic?

I've seen some horses that are very well bred that couldn't jump or didn't move well enough for the hunters.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I am hoping that someday people realize that the reason the Europeans were so far ahead of us was simply that they bred the NICEST MARES (not crappy broken down mares) to the NICEST stallions and kept improving their bloodlines. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
ITA.

I don't know about TB breeding because I've pretty much only had WBs, but I do know some things about their breeding - I know who I like and who I don't...but even then, sometimes you get an individual that's outstanding. I've also had a few horses by relatively unknown/unpopular stallions (although there may have been some good ones way back) that were great jumpers and decent movers.

For me, breeding is secondary to what the individual horse can do.

[findeight]

Most leading H/J trainers don't care because they do not buy untried youngsters for their clients preferring what they can see now over what may be.

As has been mentioned, they are on the road too much to make anything from scratch anyway.

[Smiles]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hidden Hill Farm:
Unfortunately, most trainers don't really understand that a Ramiro-Alme colt out of a line bred Nimmerdor mare should be able to jump great merely by accident!!! The sad thing is that most trainers just don't care. They would pay the same amount of money for a horse by someone's back yard stallion or rather offer me the same price that they would pay for the back yard horse. Our bloodlines are getting better and better and imagine that... our horses are getting nicer and nicer.... funny how that works, but still most trainers don't even want to know the difference. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here in lyes the problem people are not willing to shell out large amounts of money on a 3 y/o and under prospect on breeding alone. Trainers and their clients don't care if the horse is out of "good bloodline stock" they want a horse that will go out into the ring today and win the tri color ribbon. I understand it takes a lot of money to get a foal on the ground, but people want horses with training not young horses they have to wait for to grow up. Thats why I think breeders have a harder time getting higher amount for there offspring with better breeding.

[mygenie]

If I were a breeder, and this was a concern of mine, I would maybe try to make the connection differently. Not to necesarily get H/J folks interested in breeding so much (because, yes, they are busy, and all the reasons listed above are very valid IMHO!) but, maybe how can they get their horses in a training program and out there performing. If they are good, IMO, folks will show interest! I can see how this might not be feasible for breeders, as they are busy folks too, but it is just another avenue to keep in mind. It can be more difficult to make the connection between a line class and a fully trained horse vs a horse that is out there being shown OF.

[KWF]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Smiles:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hidden Hill Farm:
Plumstead, I completely agree!
I just want nice horses that move and jump well. However, the way I try to accomplish this is by picking my bloodlines carefully. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here in lyes the problem people are not willing to shell out large amounts of money on a 3 y/o and under prospect on breeding alone. Trainers and their clients don't care if the horse is out of "good bloodline stock" they want a horse that will go out into the ring today and win the tri color ribbon. I understand it takes a lot of money to get a foal on the ground, but people want horses with training not young horses they have to wait for to grow up. Thats why I think breeders have a harder time getting higher amount for there offspring with better breeding. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


That is fine for people to want a horse already showing, but at the same time you're going to pay more for a nice one that's already going. Which if people want to do then that's fine, but for many people including myself, the only way I can afford a really nice horse is to buy them young and take a risk that they will be nice in the ring as well. There is always a risk everytime you buy a horse, but there is less of a risk when buying youngsters if they come from excellent bloodlines.

There are always going to be riders/trainers in the H/J world who have tons of money to spend on the really nice horses that are already winning in the ring, but believe me there are many people out there who don't have that kind of money. Teaching people about breeding may not help those of you with tons of money, but think about other people than yourselves who have to buy young, b/c they'd rather have quality in a few years rather than buy a OTT TB that they will always have problems with.

[RockinHorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>but think about other people than yourselves who have to buy young, b/c they'd rather have quality in a few years rather than buy a OTT TB that they will always have problems with. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Huh? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Why do you assume people will always have trouble with OTTB,s. That happens to be my breed of choice for hunters even though the WBs are more popular right now and I do not "always" have troble with them. As a matter of fact my current OTTB is an excellent Amateur horse.

I do buy my horses as prospects and for that reason, I DO know a lot about bloodlines, both what I like and what I avoid. I think this is true for a lot of the people that do buy horses young or unproven over fences.

[Gold Dust]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KWF:
There is always a risk everytime you buy a horse, but there is less of a risk when buying youngsters if they come from excellent bloodlines.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well well well. Where were all you guys when I was getting fingers pointed at me on the breeding forum!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

First, I can not disagree more with the above statement. How can you tell anyone here that if I buy a foal on up to 3, befor its seen a saddle that, this is less of a risk then one that is already going??
Excellant bloodlines is not a guarantee on performance. The cards may be in your favor but no way a guarantee.
Why is it always educate the trainers and buyers? Could it be that they already have done the math and the one in the ring cantering around is a better risk then the yearling frolicking in a paddock? As I have asked the question a thousand times over on the breeding forum-What is the majority of the H/J world looking for- figure that out and cater to that. Yes, no am I wrong again?

Hang on, I feel a bumpy ride ahead. Breeders from the breeding forum-here's your chance. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

[NumberTenOx]

OK, let's pass the peace pipe.

I don't care about breeding - but then I'm fortunate enough not to need to care. As many people have said, I'm able to afford buying horses that are already jumping, so breeding just clouds the issue (with obvious minor exceptions).

However, someone bred those horses. Do I think it's relevant that those people look at bloodlines? Try to do the science to produce the best product? Of course.

To me, saying my lack of interest is ridiculous is like saying my lack of interest in the metals used to make the fuel injector in my car is ridiculous. I value very much that someone cares.

You are providing a great service! Breed great horses! Advocate for your profession! I will buy them!

[ser42]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gold Dust:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KWF:
There is always a risk everytime you buy a horse, but there is less of a risk when buying youngsters if they come from excellent bloodlines.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well well well. Where were all you guys when I was getting fingers pointed at me on the breeding forum!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

First, I can not disagree more with the above statement. How can you tell anyone here that if I buy a foal on up to 3, befor its seen a saddle that, this is less of a risk then one that is already going??
Excellant bloodlines is not a guarantee on performance. The cards may be in your favor but no way a guarantee.
Why is it always educate the trainers and buyers? Could it be that they already have done the math and the one in the ring cantering around is a better risk then the yearling frolicking in a paddock? As I have asked the question a thousand times over on the breeding forum-What is the majority of the H/J world looking for- figure that out and cater to that. Yes, no am I wrong again?

Hang on, I feel a bumpy ride ahead. Breeders from the breeding forum-here's your chance. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think the argument was that if you are deciding between a well-bred 3 y/o and an already started horse of unknown breeding, that the 3 y/o would always be the better bet... I think the point was that ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL (so, deciding between 2 unstarted 3 y/os, let's say with similar conformation), the one with the better bloodlines is *probably* the better gamble...

[mygenie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gold Dust:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KWF:
There is always a risk everytime you buy a horse, but there is less of a risk when buying youngsters if they come from excellent bloodlines.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well well well. Where were all you guys when I was getting fingers pointed at me on the breeding forum!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

First, I can not disagree more with the above statement. How can you tell anyone here that if I buy a foal on up to 3, befor its seen a saddle that, this is less of a risk then one that is already going??

Hang on, I feel a bumpy ride ahead. Breeders from the breeding forum-here's your chance. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A lot of disagreements on this board come from people misreading posts. It is clear to me KWF is talking about buying a youngster, not a well bred youngster VS an already performing horse with lesser known bloodlines.

[mygenie]

ser42, we posted the same thing at the same time...

[KWF]

I guess the question here I was really asking is would people enjoy seeing/learning about pedigree stuff at the shows? I find it hard to believe that people who are really into horses would not enjoy learning about any aspect of them. Horse people are horse people and even though I'm not a farrier I enjoy seeing and learning what they have to say...maybe I'm unique but I love learning about horses whatever it may be about. I'm not saying you all have to buy our young horses or go out and breed yourself, I just find it hard to believe that you wouldn't enjoy learning about bloodlines etc at the shows.

[KWF]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mygenie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gold Dust:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KWF:
There is always a risk everytime you buy a horse, but there is less of a risk when buying youngsters if they come from excellent bloodlines.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well well well. Where were all you guys when I was getting fingers pointed at me on the breeding forum!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

First, I can not disagree more with the above statement. How can you tell anyone here that if I buy a foal on up to 3, befor its seen a saddle that, this is less of a risk then one that is already going??

Hang on, I feel a bumpy ride ahead. Breeders from the breeding forum-here's your chance. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A lot of disagreements on this board come from people misreading posts. It is clear to me KWF is talking about buying a youngster, not a well bred youngster VS an already performing horse with lesser known bloodlines. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly...glad to see someone reads the posts ahead of the current couple posts. Thanks

[PineTreeFarm]

If I'm looking for a childrens hunter or an adult amateur hunter bloodlines aren't important. What is important is performance and many folks want to buy something that's ready to go today, not 2-3 years down the road.
It costs a lot for board and training for those intervening years and you have no clue if the horse will be a success or not.
I've been lucky enough to have had several horses that were well bred but were dismal failures at the job they were produced for so there you go with the theory that superior bloodlines always produce better quality horses.
I have been interested in the bloodlines of the horses I've purchased but it was always after the fact. More as a research project.

[MsHunter]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif GoldDust Where are you? LOL
KWF.. OK here it goes and I know I am going to get MAJORLY FLAMED!!!!
Let's put bloodlines aside for a moment and divert to the "breeding can be a crap shoot" point of view and forget about inspections and awards and line performance and get to basics
with YOUNG HORSES (TB or NON TB or any horse).

I am not sure the bloodlines are what we need to educate people about but how to "evaluate" a young prospect. It seems MANY of the WB breeders love their European inspectors to come rate their horses and tell them what they have.

Here is a different idea altogether. How good are we as breeders at culling our horses? Not our mares, but what we produce. WHo are the breeders out there that can consistently put a horse on the ground that can perform in the discipine they are breeding for? That is my goal. I don't breed to certain bloodlines, but certain "types". That is just me. I breed for hunters. My goal is to be respected as a breeder of quality prospects for the hunter ring. Sure I am going to "miss" but when I do, those horses are culled out and sold to people who want a pleasure horse, a pet, a project to work with etc.
Can't we see certain tendencies in the types of horses breeders breed? If I start producing dressage horses I have done something I didn't plan on doing and I sure am going to change it fast. Don't we have to have the ability to properly evaluate what we have and decide if it will be all that before we advertise it as a "premium colt, by this and out of that" and expect people to buy it?

We need to give breeders who consistently put the desired end product in the ring the credit they deserve. Can anyone name a breeder who has done that? I can't.

That is my own personal goal. The ones I have for sale I most likely have scared people away in the past. I can't tell you with the yearling coming 2 what she is going to be. I can tell you she is sound, healthy great attitude and a good mover right now. That is 60% of everyones yearlings.
The coming 3 year old I can say more about so the price goes up.

And you can be DARN sure I am going to get them into the ring and have them jump, swap, and get sold. The price will sell the horse, the horse will dictate the price. When it is jumping around a 2'6" course at a show I do have a clearer vision of what I have and so does everyone else.

That being said. I show on the line. Turn it out well and your sure to be rewarded for your efforts. This is great mileage for the horses and prizes are nice too! It is the 1st step only to me. I have watched way too many line horse win that I'd NEVER want to own. I have seen some that I love the way they are put together and I do wait to see what happens with them!! It is a "type" I breed for..
Crossing TBs with Wbs is tricky business to me.
I am still always learning via what I do.
A breeder to be good HAS to look at what they produce and be honest with themselves and learn from it too.

[Hidden Hill Farm]

I agree, let's clarify here before this gets out of control.

Everyone can agree that a horse that is already winning in the ring is always less of a gamble than an unstarted three year old.

However, that is not the issue.

The issue is that it is hard to explain to trainers that a well bred unstarted youngster is a better gamble and IS worth more money than an unstarted youngster without impressive bloodlines.

I'm looking at this from both sides. Yes, I breed horses, but I ride, train, buy and sell and so does my husband...

I'm just sharing my own personal experience. As our horses bloodlines are getting better and better, they are getting nicer and nicer -- and of course, more expensive because they are more expensive for me to breed and buy.

It costs the same amount of money to train, feed, shoe and show a horse whether it is nice or not. So, why not err on the side of caution, invest in the one that is a safer bet because of its bloodlines and have a better chance of ending up with something special. The initial investment in the horse is usually smaller than the amount you'll pay to take care of it, train it and show it anyway!!

It's already been said many times that most trainers don't want to deal with youngsters. That is a given. We're not going to change that. Many pros are just too busy and on the road too much to deal with that.

I completely understand their feeling. We'd love to be back at the bigger shows, but we have 44 horses here and most of them are under 3 years of age. We had to make a choice. It takes lots of time and patience to deal with the young horses and they definitely don't fit the program of most show barns. That is why places like ours exist. We specialize in young horses. No, maybe it's not as glamourous as being in Palm Beach all winter, but it's very rewarding and we love it, and heck, we can fly down for a few weeks when it's too cold to do much here and show a bit....

Anyway, Rome wasn't built in a day. Things are slowly starting to change a little bit. I think most trainers at least know who Ramiro is...
Most hunter trainers at least understand that horses buy the leading IHF stallions are worth more.

As it gets harder and harder to buy in Europe, more young warmloods will be bought here. The bloodlines and the quality is the same. It's not so easy to look at 50 in a day. However, the presige of buying over there is ruined by the lously exchange rate, quarantine hassles and risk of getting cheated in a vetting due to a language barrier.

The link that is missing here is the trainers who are good with young horses. This has been discussed so many times on the breeder forums. In Europe, the youngsters are brought up through a good program with qualified trainers. Here, not many good trainers want to deal with young horses. So, young horses sit in the fields at breeding farms and don't get properly started. Then, they're sold cheap to people who don't know what they have and never realize their full potential. In Europe that is much less likely to happen.

[Smiles]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KWF:
There are always going to be riders/trainers in the H/J world who have tons of money to spend on the really nice horses that are already winning in the ring, but believe me there are many people out there who don't have that kind of money. Teaching people about breeding may not help those of you with tons of money, but think about other people than yourselves who have to buy young, b/c they'd rather have quality in a few years rather than buy a OTT TB that they will always have problems with. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey I'm a college student thats always had to bring along my own. I've never had a "made" horse to start with, but I can only commment on what the current trend in the A show ring is. People especial, working adults, don't have the time to invest in a young horses. I'm sure when they are shopping for a horse, bloodlines are most likely last or doesn't even make the list. I can also say the yes buying a young horse is a crap shot. I bought my now 6 y/o as a yearling. We bought her for the solo interest of her being a hunter. She did hunter breeding, won some year end awards. Anyway fast forward to the riding years and guess what I've got a jumper on my hands. Which doesn't bother me to much, but all the money on showing, in a sence, has gone to waste because no jumper rider is going to care if my horse has a show record in the hunter classes.

[findeight]

Well, if I was looking at 2 equal and unstarted prospects for any discipline, the better bloodline will be the better prospect and darn sure I'd research them before buying.

But I don't buy that way and it's not that I don't care. Just that bloodline is really a very small part of the puzzle in an older, finished animal not destined for the breeding shed.

[KWF]

Can we try to get back on track here...my initial post was to try and get ideas from people on what if anything they'd like to see done at the shows in regards to breeding and pedigrees. Everyone has their own opinion but what I'd like to hear is your opinion, brainstorm of sorts, on activites that people would enjoy seeing at the shows.

[findeight]

Well, they could announce the sire and dam of Champion and Reserve. With 8 rings going, nobody wants extended pedigree information on all 8 places of every class....but don't be surprised if unknown is heard alot.

Breeders could also rent vendor space at a big circuit and provide information on their product by showcasing how their youngsters have done at the shows. Some simple brochures and videos plus show records prominently displayed. H/J folks would stop by, lots of them. You could host a wine tasting or something one afternoon.
The shows themselves are not going to feature anything in that direction special event wise-they already run 7am to dark. Most don't even have exhibitor parties anymore.

We do have the IHF and almost everybody knows who All The Gold is as well as Jones Hall and Schoenfeld (sp?) so we are not in some kind of void bloodline wise.

[Hidden Hill Farm]

Absolutely findeight.

The breeders are the ones seeking the change. So, they're the ones who are going to have to do the work. Have a wine and cheese party promoting your stallion or get your breeders group together and sponsor something that makes you more accessible.

Trainers are going to want to know what they're getting out of it.

A more expensive prospect doesn't always mean that THEY make more money.... think in their terms.

I think the leading hunter sires list is a bit of an indicator. Gosh, no one in the hunter world knew who Voltaire was several years ago.

IHF is another place to start except that those stallions are nominated with fees and not results. Personally, I would look at the stallions with a jumping score of 10, great temperament and offspring on the ground with the movement I wanted for the hunters.

Then, there's the other and arguably more important part of the equation the Dam.
This is where things get difficult as we should know her parentage as well. So, perhaps there should be a way to keep track of those bloodlines through the USAE.

Maybe breeders should ban together and sponser some challenges and awards for leading sires. For example, what if breeders put a $1000 award together to be kicked back to the breeder of the Champion working hunter or even junior hunter... Perhaps it should be split 50-50 between breeder and trainer. Maybe that would generate some interest.

I know in some states there are classes for horses that were bred there for example Michigan and Virginia. There are options, if there is a sponsor, there will be a class....
Maybe there should be a division for North American bred Warmbloods -- just a thought.
There could be an award to rider, trainer, breeder and stallion and mare owner. OR-- a maybe a COTH full page ad is the award...

[CBoylen]

Hmm.
Well, I'm a H/J person, and I like to think I know a bit about pedigrees.
However, when translating that into buying a horse, I do what I think most H/J people do. I look at the horses that are representative of breeds or registries suitable for the hunter ring. If I find one I like, I ask how it's bred specifically. However, the answer probably wouldn't affect my decision unless I had a distinct AVERSION to the breeding. Sure, if I later had to choose between it or another horse, I would tend to pick the one with the lines with which I'm most familiar, but how often do you look at two horses without having a decided preference?
Most professionals will know the lines of their good horses, or at least their registeries. They will be more familiar with these lines, and thus possibly more likely to go see horses of similar breeding. However, once you get them to come see your horses, you still need to have something nice to show them. I think a lot of breeders assume that if they tell someone how well bred their horses are, and "teach" them what those bloodlines mean, it will somehow raise the quality of their horses. Frankly, I think most of us will buy what we were going to buy anyway, or leave with the impression that the breeder is highly deluded about the quality of his stock.

[ponygirl]

I ride with a pro from Europe. When I first called him, he asked me what I had. I told him "A five year old Holsteiner mare." His second question was "How is she bred?" Not, what level of training is she or I at, etc, etc. He is very interested in bloodlines and knows them so well he can give great insight to bloodlines and how a line might be under saddle. I find it fascinating and can sit and listen for hours. I am unsure if it's due to him being from Europe but he was the first pro who wanted to know how my horse was bred before they wanted to know anything else.

[WhatzUp]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Boylen:
Hmm.
Well, I'm a H/J person, and I like to think I know a bit about pedigrees.
However, when translating that into buying a horse, I do what I think most H/J people do. I look at the horses that are representative of breeds or registries suitable for the hunter ring. If I find one I like, I ask how it's bred specifically. However, the answer probably wouldn't affect my decision unless I had a distinct AVERSION to the breeding. Sure, if I later had to choose between it or another horse, I would tend to pick the one with the lines with which I'm most familiar, but how often do you look at two horses without having a decided preference?
Most professionals will know the lines of their good horses, or at least their registeries. They will be more familiar with these lines, and thus possibly more likely to go see horses of similar breeding. However, once you get them to come see your horses, you still need to have something nice to show them. I think a lot of breeders assume that if they tell someone how well bred their horses are, and "teach" them what those bloodlines mean, it will somehow raise the quality of their horses. Frankly, I think most of us will buy what we were going to buy anyway, or leave with the impression that the breeder is highly deluded about the quality of his stock. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very well said, in fact I have nothing to add,
and I completely agree.

Yours in sport,

Lynn

[MsHunter]

CBoylen what are some of your favorite registeries,and on the other hand least favorites?

I personally like Dutch Warmbloods x'd with
old time TB bloodlines. I am embarking on a new adventure this year with C line Holsteiners xs and I have even thought about breeding to
a "mecklingberg? spelling".. In addition I have seen SO MANY Z horses I really admire, I am taking a trip to see a stallion a friend of mine "imported" , not that I care about it having been imported, I have just heard wonderful things about how well it jumps that i want to go see it!

[Gold Dust]

OK OK I deserved those shots but only flesh wounds guys and not rapid fire direct hits to the chest!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif Yes, I read that wrong and my apologies.

As far as an interest or knowledge of bloodlines, most professionals want to and do have this knowledge. It just means for only a small handful, does this knowledge bring your next purchase solely off blood lines. So many other things go in the pot of next purchase and why.

Right now, the one class that does announce breeding are the YJC. Why I started the thread here and does not seem to get much responses. At this time, the only class that seems to be trying to educate in its own way. I do believe in wanting to and wanting to learn more on breeding. So, KWF- to answer your question, yes I would like to see more of this at shows. I'd like to see the YJC and others form, grow and expand. I'd like to see the Jr. and A/O hunters and even your 3 ft. hunters, some day, have breeding announced.
As far as what the majority of horses that are the real market in the H/J world? Unfortunatly that is more the made or started horse at this time IMO. Note- I'm saying the large market, not the whole market.
BTW- I agree- OTTBs do get the short end of the stick sometimes. They fit the bill for many. Just like a well bred horse for many also. You cann't fault those who search for either type. To each his own-right?

No matter what slices of the pie you dole out, be it a breeder, trainer or so on, this buisness is tough. We all get a nice big slice of 'this ain't easy'!

[Merry]

You sort of seem to ask 2 questions here: Do H/J people WANT to learn about bloodlines, and if so, HOW do you go about disseminating that information.

I'll answer as someone who continues to compete in the ammy adult hunter and equitation divisions, and as someone who's bred and raised 30+ WB's and WB/TB crosses of several registries that have been successful (some more, some less) in the show ring.

Even when we were marketing our 2 yr. olds and 3 yr. olds, who'd had some backing/long lining/free jumping, virtually NONE of the prospective show hunter buyers cared about the breeding. And these were by nice sires like Alla Czar, Schoenfeld and Hall of Fame. What mattered was: How did they move? What was their temperament while they were being worked? And most important, what was their form when they free jumped?

When my mom was very much involved with a large WB registry, she was on a committee that tried to do pretty much what you're aiming for. We held mid-sized open H/J/dressage shows in combo with in-hand breed and sporthorse classes. We even maintained a "sales barn" of youngsters with their pedigrees plastered on their stalls. And we held the ol' wine and cheese party while some of the stallions and their offspring that were for sale were paraded in the big arena, complete with announcements about their bloodlines. NO ONE SEEMED TO CARE, other than other breeders who were in attendance.

Ultimately, even when it comes down to youngsters who aren't yet performing in the show ring, buyers want to see some extrinsic evidence of performance.

Now, do I care about a young horse's bloodlines?In a word, yes, because I've spent so much time becoming familiar with them. And I'm comfortable in buying an unbroke horse, even though I cannot ever foresee myself being in that position (kept the Alla Czar and the West Coast babies, thank you very much http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif).

So while I thoroughly understand your frustration with the subject of bloodlines and the lack of apparent interest thereof, I think you just need to understand the hunter/jumper market a little bit more. It took me a long time to realize that first the young horse has to demonstrate some modicum of talent before someone will be open to hearing what bloodlines it possesses. If it longes over a small oxer with its legs dangling, no one cares that it won on the line or that it's sired by an IHF stallion. The proof, as my grandmother would say, "is in the pudding." http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Hidden Hill Farm]

Exactly Ponygryl!
There's a reason for this. The Europeans had it figured out a long time ago. There is a formula and quality control that we seriously lack over here. I'm not saying that nice horses can't happen by accident. However, I'm pretty sure the KWPN has some published literature linking the jumping index of the sire and dam sire to the performance of the offspring. It's more than just trying to convince people, it's been proven.

The other side of it is this:
If American Breeders want to be taken seriously, they need to be responsible breeders and learn everything they can about what they are breeding. Use the methods that have worked in Europe for decades -- don't just cross a broken down mare to local warmblood stallion and proclaim it to be a nice hunter prospect because the sire has good lines. That won't work either. If the American breeders want to command the type of respect that the Europeans receive, they need to run their operations in a similar fashion.

I'm not slamming breeders. There are many great breeders out there who do a great job. However, there are enough others who just want to have a foal or two and therefore breed whatever mare they have to a warmblood stallion. Evidently, this is even prohibited in Germany. I'm not sure about the rest of Europe -- maybe someone else knows. I'm not saying that I think the government should take away our freedom to breed horses or that I think registries are the answer (at least for hunters). However, breeders are asking what they can do to keep people from going to Europe and to get trainers more interested. I think this is an important part of the equation.

[Merry]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hidden Hill Farm:
...don't just cross a broken down mare to local warmblood stallion and proclaim it to be a nice hunter prospect because the sire has good lines. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
While I totally agree with this statement (knowing too many people who had the broken down mare with a functioning uterus so therefore it was morphed into a broodmare), I'd like to make it clear that ALL of our mares were in the main mare books and were, in fact, "premium" status. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Nonetheless, breeding a quality horse is a crapshoot.

The End.

Leaving before this reaches Page 23 and Train Wreck status.

[van]

C.Boylen said it perfectly... nothing more to add.

Vanessa Brown
www.derbyhillfarm.com (http://www.derbyhillfarm.com)

[Hidden Hill Farm]

Merry, I was not posting in reply to your previous post. It hadn't popped up until I posted mine and realized yours was above it.

My experience with breeding and sales has been very similar to yours and I agree with your post whole heartedly.

[CBoylen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hidden Hill Farm:
However, there are enough others who just want to have a foal or two and therefore breed whatever mare they have to a warmblood stallion. Evidently, this is even prohibited in Germany. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, basically you've just described my involvement in the breeding world. I've never had more than one broodmare at a time personally. My mother has always kept only one or two. However, she bred four Devon champions. I've sold over $300,000 worth of offspring so far, as well as having bred a quality amateur horse for myself. None have been registered.
Some of us breed for one or two foals a year because we have a good mare, and like her. I think you're generalizing when you assume that you have to have a large opperation and highly bred stock to be successful. If one can recognize a nice horse and breed it to another nice horse they can do very well.

[Hidden Hill Farm]

I think perhaps I have been unclear. I am certainly not putting down people who breed one or two mares and I do not in any way feel that you have to have a big operation to be successful.

What I was trying to say is that there are people out there (and I discuss this with my vet all the time) who have one or two mares in their back yard who have no show record or potential, have glaring conformation faults, and usually the mare has gone lame (probably becuase of this conformation fault) and so they breed her. Sometimes it's to teach their kids about the cycle of life. Sometimes it's because they really think that breeding that mare to a nice stallion will give them something decent.
That is what I'm talking about and those are the horses that flood the market and make the reputable breeders in this country taken less seriiously. Those breeders, not responsible breeders like you, are partially to blame for the fact that you can't tout bloodlines and expect it to mean much in this country.

For the most part, I do not register my foals either. Until their are more registries that are hunter friendly, I most likely will not do so.

[CBoylen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MsHunter:
CBoylen what are some of your favorite registeries,and on the other hand least favorites? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I know the most about Holsteiner lines, so they tend to stick out in my mind, and I'm partial toward horses of any registry with my favored Holsteiner lines. My second choice though are the Dutch, followed by Oldenburg, and then Hannoverian. The Belgian and Danish also seem to produce hunters(although I know less about them), but the Trakheners and Swedish are very few in the hunter ring, so I would be less likely to go see one unless someone could offer me an incentive of some kind like a great tape or picture. I tend to think of the Mecklinburg and Zangersheide horses as being more jumper material, and would again need to be prompted.
I'm now unlikely to buy a straight TB, unless it's spectacular, as they're so much harder to market for resale, but I like to see good TB lines in both the registered warmbloods and in unregistered crosses.
As far as breeding, until this year I've only ever bred with a TB on one side or the other of the equation, but next year I'll have a 3/4 warmblood (mostly Dutch) foal (hoping all goes as planned), and I'll be venturing into straight warmblood breeding with my Holsteiner mare.

[2Dogs]

Mares! We have to look at the quality of our mares! Too often I see all kinds of soooooo sub=average mares mares being bred. And the sad part is that the stallion owners let this happen. If I had the honor of owning a fabulous stallion, I would be very sure that the mares I was breeding to were quality- why not! I have researched the stallions for my mare of a million and I intend to show off the offspring. But until we make it less like a backyard, puppy-mill standard of breeding, then the "breedlines" are insignificant.

[van]

When I first read this post, something struck me as inherently wrong. Not wanting to write anything that could be taken the wrong way, I simply agreed with C.Boylen's well done post (and I still do). However, after thinking on this for a while (and having a little more Turkey), I realise that I truly believe that the poster has it backwards! We, as trainer's, owner's, rider's, and exhibitors of hunter/ jumper horses should be educating the breeders! After all, we are the ones that are dealing with the grown up product and are seeing first hand which horses are great stylists, great movers, easy or hard to get to the ring, which ones hold up soundness wise, and which ones are mentally suitable for our customers. We also know which ones have been huge disapointments, and have been sold to alternative disciplines. I would really like to see the breeders asking us for our input, and finding out which "winners on the line", and "premium this that and the other" are really turning out to be successful in the horse show world. I can also assure you that we are very aware of how our best performers are bred, and even more so of how our greatest dissapointments, and most difficult ones are!

Vanessa Brown
www.derbyhillfarm.com (http://www.derbyhillfarm.com)

[Beezer]

Vanessa, while one would THINK that breeders-- and stallion owners, in particular -- would want to hear such feedback, the unfortunate truth is that most -- not all, but most -- do not want to hear anything that smacks remotely of "negative."

Just look around the sporthorse breeding forums and see what happens as soon as someone posts something that might -- just might -- not be exactly glowing about a stallion. As fast as one can say, "That's slander! I'm suing you!!" they will. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Which is why, unfortunately, it's so difficult to get good information about stallions in particular and breeding lines in general. We all whisper about which stallions we won't touch and why, but no one actually comes out and says it, for fear of that whole lawsuit thing.

As for the OP's premise, I think Chanda and Merry (my always brilliant sister) pretty much covered it. I must add, though, that even after years of breeding horses, bloodlines are still low down on my list of concerns when I'm horse shopping. Why? Because the best hunters I ever sat on were, in order, an appendix Quarter Horse; another appendix Quarter Horse; a gentleman who was probably a TB/WB cross but since he didn't come with papers, it's anybody's guess; an Oldenburg; and, now, an OTTB.

Meanwhile, next-door to that OTTB is my well-bred warmblood, who, despite doing well at his inspection and in-hand, can't make the counts down a line to save himself and is a crippled Froot-loop besides. Still, he's mine and I love him, neuroses and all. But the OTTB has him beat 16 ways to Sunday when it comes to being a show hunter.

Which is a very long way of saying, breeding for hunters is and always will be a crapshoot. And that's why, in the end, until the hunter folks can SEE a horse over a fence, they aren't going to be that interested in a young horse, no matter what the breeding. Dressage folks can look at movement; jumper people aren't that concerned about style. But the hunter has to be an artist over a fence, and the registration papers and bloodlines, no matter how good, are not going to show that.

[van]

Beezer, LOL!!!! So true, and certainly nobody wants to hear bad things PUBLICLY about their pride and joy boy, or the dam's less than stellar lines, but seriously, why wouldn't the breeders contact trainers, and have quiet, private conversations about their personal experiences with their favorites/ most unfortunate performers. After all, aren't we the customers that they are trying to cater to?

Vanessa Brown
www.derbyhillfarm.com (http://www.derbyhillfarm.com)

[WhatzUp]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hidden Hill Farm:
Exactly Ponygryl!
There's a reason for this. The Europeans had it figured out a long time ago. There is a formula and quality control that we seriously lack over here. I'm not saying that nice horses can't happen by accident. However, I'm pretty sure the KWPN has some published literature linking the jumping index of the sire and dam sire to the performance of the offspring. It's more than just trying to convince people, it's been proven. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes the KWPN does have these and more.
One place to start understanding the basis of the
KWPN system for non-Dutch reading folks ...
http://www.google.ca/search?q=cache:NTkdmKnoJcIJ:www.nawpn.org/kwpnsystem.htm+nawpn+predicates&hl=en&start=1

Yours in sport,

Lynn

[khobstetter]

I'll get into this...from 2 angles...BUT PLEASE NO FLAMES...even tho I will probably make your blood boil..

1. I buy in Europe all the time AND I do buy a lot of young horses there and train them here.....One of them was the only horse at The North American Young Rider Championships to have 5 (YES 5) clean rounds this year.

I bought her in Europe and the thing that made me go find her was the comment,,,"I know where there is a really nice Cassini mare".

2. I would like to buy in the US but so far have not been too successful at it.

IN MY OWN PERSONAL OPINION...please no flames!!!!....

In Europe I know that the breeding programs are NOT a personal/pet project...it is a national research business. Here it seems different...IMHO.

I know there that the breeders are running a "science project" to NOT just breed good foals.....THEY WANT TO BREED SUPER FOALS....and really try to get their personal pet attachments out of the way. Just because they have a well bred mare...they possibly won't breed it! Just because they have a "nice" stallion..they possibly won't breed it.

Here...if someone has a "well bred" stallion they advertise and breed it, sometimes NOT APPROVED, sometimes no matter what quality an individual it is, it's conformation, it's show ring success or whether it's stallion material or not...over there they don't..it becomes a gelding sporthorse...and usually a good one.

Here if a Hannovarian won't pass the Hannovarian inspections..they go Rhineland/Pfalsar or whatever..just so it is "Approved".(I like and buy that breed so don't attack me for making that comment).

I really don't mean to cause friction here...but IMHO...there I go hundreds of miles to drive and see "a Cassini"..but here I probably won't.

I think the issue is the "sorting process" AND breeders there who are willing to listen to and respect (though sometimes not agree) qualified opinions of their stock.

Here, when I would try to go to the farms and buy.....most of the time the horses were NOT as they were represented....

The breeders would ask for my opinion...AND GET MAD AS H%$&%LL IF I DIDN'T TELL THEM HOW WONDERFUL THEIR HORSE(S) WERE.

They didn't want an opinion so they could learn just what it is we want to buy...they wanted me to tell them how wonderful their horses were.

I DID SEE SOME NICE HORSES...but when I did they were usually overpriced and underbroke.

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ...I AM highly "educated" to bloodlines but it seems to me...IMHO...that here it doesn't tell me much about most of the individuals.

Before you flame me and go goofy.....this is a short "generalization" of what "breeding & pedigrees" mean to me.......not a whole lot here...

I KNOW THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS..AND MY HAT IS OFF TO THOSE...

SORRY...but you wanted feedback......I would LOVE to see the sorting process here as carefully critical as it is there...that is what sells horses THERE...and that is what brings us to the farms..and THAT is what makes me take my wallet out.

Can you guys help figure out a common ground somewhere in between..the issue is not "learning"...it is finding the quality individual here.

ONE MORE ISSUE..over there the breeders just about ALWAYS send the young stock to a trainer to get it started...I have watched the Breeding Forum and from the threads there..it's a problem for most of you guys...

ANY SOLUTIONS?????????????

[Kestrel]

I buy for performance, not potential. What I want to know first is can the horse do the job I'm asking of it, and second, is it conformationally suited to do the job over time?
I think that most of the time, breeding info just seems like breeders trying to advertise. Same with trying to force owners to keep the name that the breeder gives. Yes, it makes it easier for the breeder to follow their foals, but once I buy it, I get to decide what I'll hear it called when I go into the show ring.

[heidiPg]

I have to say that on average most hunter/jumper trainers no nothing about breeding and pedigrees and they do not care to learn anything. Though the top riders in the country always know something about pedigrees. I once talked to a trainer at a show who didn't know the breeding on a huge chestnut that was showing in the jr.hunter/eq. I went on the internet did some research and found out her horse was from Rubenstein. I told her and she looked at me and said "who's that?"
I agree with many people on this board. Horses bred here to tend to be overpriced. You can buy a young horse in Europe and pay the price on import and it is still cheaper than the horses here. Breeders in europe have less exepenses as farrier, vet, feed and everything else is cheaper so they don't have as much invested in the horses as breeders in america.
I think that most americans have enough money to buy nice made horses so they don't need to look at breeding to buy prospects.
But back to the original post.... I noticed at Devon this year the horses bloodlines were posted on the score board after they announced the owner/rider/horse. I think that small steps such as that are the best things in the beginning. Also most results for indoors have the horses breeding if it is available.
If people don't care to learn nothing will change that but it would be nice for people who do care to have access to that information. Maybe the shows could print a list of the horses and include info (ped, color, sex) like in europe. That is the best idea I have- i think handing out pamphlets is a waste of time and money.

[Yowsa]

I haven't tipped the fence of the hunter world in many years, but I still partake in a good jumper show now and then. But many of my students are actively involved in hunters or use that as a training base for their horses.

I'm always looking for nice show horses for myself and clients and while I understand breeding and bloodlines more now that I actually do it (I breed my retired show mares for myself, not as a sales business), I still (more likely than not) would not buy young stock from a breeder.
Why?
1. My students want something to show NOW, not in 3 years. They want a sure thing, not a gamble (and by gamble I mean both that the foal will end up a show horse AND that it will make it through the 3 pasture puff years unharmed).

2. Foals often dictate the job they will do as they grow older, where as my clients want a horse for dressage or for eventing. They don't have the "I'll do what the horse decides it's best at" mentality.

3. Why on earth would we go spend 10k PLUS on a foal, plus all the expenses of keeping it until it's old enough to ride, train, bring along, and HOPE it is good enough to do what YOU want it to do when there are nice horses APLENTY for much less than that? To me this is the why buy Armani jeans when you can get Levis that serve the same purpose? I can go to Penn National and spend a couple hours with the trainers looking at their horses and find a NICE, full grown OTTB that will be ready to test the circuit that season for 4k and under. I'm like a kid in a candy shop at the track- if you know what to look for you can walk away with a steal. Do I ask about the bloodlines? Nope, nadda once. I see a well conformed, great moving, willing, sound horse- nuff for me, I don't care who his sire/dam were.

4. Breeding is a crap shoot. Even the most respected breeders will admit to that. Just go to an inspection and watch! You'll see some high point foals out of average mares, and some premium mares with some average looking foals at their side. All with a price tag of 8k and up. Why? B/C the sire is X? So? I need more than that, sorry.

5. If I have a client with 10-25K to burn we can get a NICE 3-4 year old horse that is ready to start its career, and in some instances has. Why on earth would we pass on that market and buy a weanling? As long as those others are available, I think your average people will go for that market. The time, money, heartache, finding a place to BOARD a youngster, etc. will all limit a lot of potential buyers.

IMHO. So, did I ruffle any feathers http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[MsHunter]

Van I WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree with your post.
I in fact DO talk to fellow trainers about horses they have had in the 3'6" and 4ft ranks
that are winning and get all the information I can about the likes/dislikes about what they have. Good and bad experiences both. In addition when I am at the better shows I do sit ring side and watch trips see what "types" are doing the best. That is how I got started in WB breeding (was a true TB person).
AS an aside. I have an imported German mare without papers. What I have been told by SOME trainers is papers sometimes get "lost" so buyers can't track the horses back to Europe and find out what the "actual" cost is. Did that make me NOT breed this mare? NO. She has an outstanding USEF show record, first in the hunter ring, later in the eq ring. Moves great, jumps the best and is conformational correct. I also don't register anything. I understand the pros and cons of it, but I am totally not interested in what someone thinks of my horse, shoot, I won't even know what I think of it until it is at least 2 years old, other than whether it is correct.
We do need to focus more on what bloodlines PRODUCE WINNING HORSES in their respective disciplines and I am as a trainer and breeder INTERESTED in any education to give me those hard facts any day of the week.

Van I also agree that breeders try to educate buyers/exhibitors/professionals INSTEAD of it being the other way around. However, with everyones busy and hectic schedules I agree the only way is to discuss with your friends in the business and I do this on a regular basis. I am not sure that many breeders take the time to get involved learning about what trainers like.

[LLDM]

Near as I can tell, there is no established selective breeding program for Hunters. I do beleive there are good programs out there, but they are all private as far as I know. So without having generations of good breeding stock selected specifically for the ultimate "hunter type" it is difficult to produce this with a reasonable level of certainty.

Add to this that most of the judging in the hunters is about style and brilliance, not about some strictly objective rules (not saying this is bad, just the way it is). And even in the Hunter on the line classes there is no score sheet (given out) as there is in sport horse breeding.

It seems more the exception than the rule that Hunter riders and trainers even know the bloodlines of the horses they show sucessfully. So how is one to even start breeding specifically for the Hunters? I know that there are some who are trying, and I wish them the best of luck. I can only hope they register their horses somewhere so that their programs can start building the necessary histories to make this more feasible down the road.

I do not breed for the hunters. Even those who are savvy about seeing hunter potential in youngsters don't know how to go about breeding for it. I am no exception.

IMHO the gap between breeders and hunter riders is too wide to cross in most cases. Now, if we (breeders) could find the hunter trainers who are good at evaluating hunter potential and are interested in bring young horses along, then we might have something.

In the mean time there are just too many types of breeder and too many "prospects" in this country to make it worth my efforts to crack the hunter market. If I end up with a young horse who wants to be a hunter and has what it takes, I'll try to find it a good hunter trainer that is interested.

I am so tired of the bad feelings between breeders and hunter folk. It isn't that I don't care what hunter riders want. It's just that knowing what you want doesn't mean that there is enough historical information and objective criteria for me to sucessfully breed for it and have any type of consistency like there is for the dressage and jumper markets. Nor is there enough of a proven hunter stallion base to have the right options to breed to a proven hunter mare (even if I could afford one).

SCFarm

[hunt_jump]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LLDM:
...
IMHO the gap between breeders and hunter riders is too wide to cross in most cases. Now, if we (breeders) could find the hunter trainers _who are good at evaluating hunter potential_ and are interested in bring young horses along, then we might have something.
... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are trainers and riders (or clients of trainers) who buy or take on young hunter prospects to train and sell/resell once the horse has show mileage (I did this for several years both with young WBs and OTTBs). It does take some experience and talent IMO to pick a winner out of a field as a weanling or yearling though - no matter what the bloodlines. This is not to say that I am not interested in bloodlines - actually quite the opposite is true. My current horse is by a stallion that I used to own (I did not breed either horse) and my trainer has had at least four other horses from this direct family in her barn in the past few years. All are quite nice and talented, though all slightly different, you can't tell me that isn't due to breeding.

The biggest problem I ran into around here dealing with young horses was that I cannot afford to buy a weanling, yearling, or even two year old to train and sell. Sure they tend to be less expensive at that age, but at $500+ a month for them to grow up I can pay a lot more for a ready to start 3 1/2 - 4 year old. By that age free jumping form and free movement are what are going to interest me far more than bloodlines in a prospect (though I still find it interesting).

[khobstetter]

I just think it is different here. "Over there" breeders are intricately involved with trainers on a daily basis!! Sure there are shysters there...sure there are "trainers" who ruin young horses, sure there are trainers there who charge too much, sure there are trainers there who "cheat" their breeders by hiding pricing....it happens all over the world!!

BUT the breeders I deal with in Germany/Holland/Belgium/Denmark...all have worked VERY hard to find wonderful trainers/partners they can work with in selling their young stock.

I have been going over many times a year (this year 9 times so far) and I/we go to most of the same trainers/breeders/farmers with our agent...WHY???? Because of the long standing relationships of trust and respect between them AND US.

The breeders know I come on a regular basis and they are excited to get their young horses somewhere where I can see them.....they go out of their way to make sure I see what I need and want to buy.....AND I DO!!

AT THE SAME TIME...when my agent says "Jorge N has a super 2-3-4 year old by Caretino, do you want to drive 2 hours??" I AM ON THE "BUS" SOOOOOOOOOO FAST..I WANT THE FRONT (first choice) SEAT!!! WHY???? Because I know Caretino, I know Jorge and I know he will NOT waste my time in the "hopes" I will buy his horse...

I agree with you guys that there is a HUGE lack between breeders and trainers...YES IT IS EXPENSIVE!!! BUT BUT BUT if you are breeding to sell, that is a huge part of it...and must be factored in at the start....the day you decide to breed.

Most of you cannot break, train, sell them yourself....I know there are exceptions..but there just are not the "connections"..

Before you get flames at me....IN EUROPE IT IS ALL ABOUT CONNECTIONS!!!! Believe it or not..it is!!! Breeders there know that and work inside that issue....connections between the Verbands, the trainers, the sport AND MOSTLY the buyers.

I find WAY WAY WAY too often here (on the Breeding Forum) that the breders are always flaming us and blaming us for not realizing...1) What a super prospect we are looking at 2) expecting it to be broke appropriately for its age 3) recognizing that they have XXXXXXXX amount of money in it and therefore it IS worth XXXXXXXX!!! 4) that we should overlook the crooked leg/sway back/hammer head/bad movement/poor jumping stlye.....BECAUSE IT IS BY SPOT/BLACKIE/JOE (what they consider great stallions) !!!!

It's not that we don't "care" "OVER HERE"..it is that we also don't "care" "OVER THERE".....BUT their conversations are true to form and not wishful talking. We are just as selective over there......it's, FOR ME, just that they really really want dialoge about what we don't like so they can try to help their program for what we do like...AND BUY.

The breeding motivation is not for personal enjoyment first...it is for super foals/young horses FIRST..then personal enjoyment..they know they will love their foals..but they know they can sell good ones and get stuck with not so good ones!

I don't think the breeders here are wrong, I don't think the trainers here are wrong....I think most breeders here don't realize the entire picture over there and think we (trainers) should be excited about doing it the "American way"........

Well...let's put our heads together and find a ground that works for all of us to breed SUPER foals and then be in a relationship that will sell them!!! THEN it will be important to know breeding & pedigrees.

It's a win win for the breeders, the trainers, the sport, and the show ring....

OK&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;I have on my flame suit...BUT please don't.!!

[Hexel]

There are also those times when it is wise on the breeders part to keep a few of the best mares.
IMHO finding those blue hen type broodmares is not easy. I hope for boys as they are easier to part with then my special girls. I see my mares as hope and a possible way to improve what I breed for the future. So please forgive us for wanting to keep a few of our best to insure future bests.

The ideal, is a quality horse, athletic, good minded,
good mover, correct conformation and a pedigree to go with all of the above. Pretty is nice too. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif
This is what some of us small or large strive to breed.

[Hidden Hill Farm]

I completely agree with Van and MsHunter.

However, I have to say that not all breeders are closed minded or deaf to what we have to say. For example, I have a friend with a couple nice warmblood stallions and several different types of imported mares. She lives in the area and we gradually got to know each other. The more comfortable she got, the more she confided that she would really love to know more about hunters and how to adapt her program for the market. I told her some things she liked and some things she didn't want to hear and she has changed the direction of her program. She has also dumped some inferior prospects and held tne nicest fillies back to be bred eventually.

I have another friend who is a dressage rider and was "accidentally" breeding hunters. She has a few stallions and fantastic imported mares and began asking me about breeding hunters. She too has adapted her program somewhat and even imported a stallion prospect who is very modern and elegant with amazing bloodines who will probably be a fantastic hunter sire. She is getting him groomed to show in the hunters on the west coast. Time will tell.

I think many breeders are interested in what we have to say. But, I think that it's all in the delivery and sometimes they feel that hunter trainers are not very approachable or accessible to them. If you befriend a breeder, you may be surprised what happens. I now have two more great friends who are trying to breed fantastic hunter prospects. Many of them are going to end up with me. So, we all benefit.

I think a lot of breeders choose to breed for dressage because the concept of "big movement" is easier to understand than the complex hunter world. It is our job to help them understand. But, if hunter riders and trainers learned a little bit more about bloodlines, they would be able to communicate better with breeders.

A little education on both sides will help. But so will the willingess to share and receive information without taking it personally.

Open lines of communication can solve a lot.

[Tory Relic]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Yowsa:
I haven't tipped the fence of the hunter world in many years, but I still partake in a good jumper show now and then. But many of my students are actively involved in hunters or use that as a training base for their horses.

I'm always looking for nice show horses for myself and clients and while I understand breeding and bloodlines more now that I actually do it (I breed my retired show mares for myself, not as a sales business), I still (more likely than not) would not buy young stock from a breeder.
Why?
1. My students want something to show NOW, not in 3 years. They want a sure thing, not a gamble (and by gamble I mean both that the foal will end up a show horse AND that it will make it through the 3 pasture puff years unharmed).

2. Foals often dictate the job they will do as they grow older, where as my clients want a horse for dressage or for eventing. They don't have the "I'll do what the horse decides it's best at" mentality.

3. Why on earth would we go spend 10k PLUS on a foal, plus all the expenses of keeping it until it's old enough to ride, train, bring along, and HOPE it is good enough to do what YOU want it to do when there are nice horses APLENTY for much less than that? To me this is the why buy Armani jeans when you can get Levis that serve the same purpose? I can go to Penn National and spend a couple hours with the trainers looking at their horses and find a NICE, full grown OTTB that will be ready to test the circuit that season for 4k and under. I'm like a kid in a candy shop at the track- if you know what to look for you can walk away with a steal. Do I ask about the bloodlines? Nope, nadda once. I see a well conformed, great moving, willing, sound horse- nuff for me, I don't care who his sire/dam were.

4. Breeding is a crap shoot. Even the most respected breeders will admit to that. Just go to an inspection and watch! You'll see some high point foals out of average mares, and some premium mares with some average looking foals at their side. All with a price tag of 8k and up. Why? B/C the sire is X? So? I need more than that, sorry.

5. If I have a client with 10-25K to burn we can get a NICE 3-4 year old horse that is ready to start its career, and in some instances has. Why on earth would we pass on that market and buy a weanling? As long as those others are available, I think your average people will go for that market. The time, money, heartache, finding a place to BOARD a youngster, etc. will all limit a lot of potential buyers.

IMHO. So, did I ruffle any feathers http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not mine &lt;G&gt;. I agree with you wholeheartedly, especially about the OTTBs. Mine certainly hasn't been something I thought I'd "always have problems with", and I haven't. I DO know about breeding and pedigrees of THOROUGHBREDS. So when I've had a call saying I've got a nice prospect for you of such-and-such breeding, I know, pedigree-wise, what I'm looking at, but I'm not buying this horse as a weanling or yearling from a breeder. I'm buying it because it didn't succeed at its original job and now may do better at the one I want it to do, and it's ready to go with only a little (in many cases) adjustment time. Certainly not three years' worth. But breeding IS secondary. I know someone who has an OTTB that I'd buy in a skinny minute, that is lovely and can jump the moon. Yeah, I knew his name and looked up his pedigree. No surprises. But it wouldn't have made any difference in my wanting or not wanting to buy him. Which I can't because she won't sell him. &lt;G&gt; And, like you, if I wanted a baby to raise, I'd breed my own. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[Hunter Hag]

When buying a horse, bloodlines are the least thing I'm interested in. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[JusJumpIt]

KNOBSETTER, EXCELLENT, well thought out, well presented ideas. I think you are 100% on the money. I spent most of my junior years riding in Germany, (Silver)with a super trainer. In Germany you can not just hang out a sign that proclaims you a trainer, you go through the system. Once you hang out your shingle, you ARE the real deal. It is exactly the same concept for the breeders. You DO NOT breed a horse simply because they have the "equipment". You DO NOT breed a mare that is lacking in talent or temperament, you will not, hear a reason for wanting to breed a specific mare, to be, "she is too crazed to show".
In Europe, (I say Germany because I spent so many years there) breeding has been a science for years and years. Horses are "culled" without emotion taking over, if they do not have the ability, conformation and talent to perform, they are not bred.
The comment "HAG" made, about not asking for pedigree when they go to look as a prospect is true, but it is SAD that we have not developed, through years and years of carefull breeding, the ability to tell much about a horses jumping ability from it's bloodlines.
Horse Racing in the US has come close to the breeding program found in Germany. Lines have been studied and followed for years and years. Some breed associations have "tried" to develop working lines, but with the impatiennce of Americans, the years and years it takes to identify crosses that work well, was traded for in-breeding (under the disguise of Line breeding) causing a host of problems.
The solution is to start now, keeping track of parents, the PHF started on this. Not only keep track of the crosses that work, but more to the point, those that DO NOT WORK.
Do not breed a mare or stallion because they have the working plumbing. Do not breed a horse because they are lacking in temperament, talent, soundness, and can not be shown. Spay and Geld and go on looking for a better cross.
It is very sad we spend so many dollars in Europe, but, that is where you can find the best horse. I am not a fan of many of the imports, I still LOVE a good TB. I think the TB just has that added will, desire and heart, to want to win. But for now, if you want the best possible horse for the money, you have to look across the pond. Learn to say auf wiedersehen,
By the way KNOBSETTER, if you ever need a translator to drag along to Germany I am game.

[CBoylen]

I agree that the Germans and others appear to have fabulous breeding programs. However, I'm less convinced that it's entirely because they have a better understanding of the bloodlines. It seems to me that a great deal of it is simply that they have better funded breeding programs of larger scope than we do here, and more of them.
Keep in mind the fact that the Europeans are spending their time, for the most part, trying to breed for high class jumpers. Now, what do we import the most of from Europe? Hunters. Equitation horses. Low level jumpers. In short, horses that could no more jump around a WC course than read their own pedigrees. For every great GP horse that someone brings over there are 100's of these horses crossing the ocean. As far as the German breeding program is concerned, these horses are failures. The fact that they are highly valuable to people in this country is a complete accident.

[JusJumpIt]

Justified, First Monday and too many to name, were imported as jumpers and went on to be some top hunters. And while there is some "Euro-trash" to be found, overall, the program is very, very successful.
I agree 100% with C. BOYLEN, the programs are far better funded. Better funding means, not only better development, but also better PR. They market their horses with the budget's some companies use to advertise Ford's. However, Grand Prix Jumping brings in thousands of spectators, if you see a tape from one of the shows in Europe the stands are FULL!! Football, playoff FULL. Not just the 3 or 4 people that come with each horse, but they fill stadiums at their shows. I think that is one of the biggest differences in the two show worlds. I do not have an answer for the large numbers comming to watch, paying admission, for the shows there. Crowds the size of NFR in Las Vegas.
C.BOYLEN, I think you have touched on the root of the problem. Show Horses in Europe have the same "star status" as some of our football stars. Somehow, good old fashioned MONEY is a part of the problem.
I remember showing in the "A" Level jumpers, basically our childrens adult level, in front of packed stands. Sponsors are more than willing to put their money out there in front of the masses.
In Europe they do not offer the hunter classes, nor do they offer the hundreds of lower level classes. Although there is some EQ type classes, not like here in the US. I am not sure exactly how the "type" of class plays into the equation. Perhaps they have their younger horses jumping higher earlier than we do here. They may wait an extra year to start them under saddle, but they also start out in higher divisions. The first time I was an exhibitor in a jumper class it was at the 1 meter + level, or 3'6" here. My first event (Military) was at the Prelimb level. However I think that at the very bottom of the problem is what C. BOYLEN correctly pointed out, $$$$$$$$'s.

[fish]

Khobstetter-- one thing you said REALLY hit home for me: you shop in Europe, and bloodlines mean something to you there, but not here because people here MISREPRESENT their horses!!! I spent 2 years trying to find a young prospect here-- and completely gave up after spending a fortune in gasoline and lodging going to look, for example, at "16hand" horses that shrunk to 15.1 or less by the time I arrived!!! (One seller actually had the gall to try and convince me that the horse would grow as soon as I put it into training!!) Eventually, I gave up entirely on even asking people about their horses and bought my prospects at the big TB yearling auctions so I could simply see and compare for myself-- It's nice to know that there's someplace in the world where people know what they have and are honest about it.... I guess the dishonest/inaccurate European horsedealers have all come here???

[KWF]

What I find ironic about the whole hunter thing and importing is that in Europe most all breders register their horses and take them to inspections etc, to evaluate their breeding stock to determine who they will breed, who will be kept as potential stallion prospects and who is gelded. They very much live by this system, as others have said it is an outside educated unbiased person evaluating the horse, which is what needs to be done.

What I find is interesting is that in Europe no one breeds for the hunters b/c they don't have them, yet Americans continue to import horses from Europe that are very successful in the hunter ring. So obviously their system is working in all aspects (dressage, jumpers and hunters).

Now what I think is ironic is that as most hunter breeders above have mentioned, they don't use the inspections in this country to evaluate their breeding stock and young horses. I think that is the problem in America. Breeders will say "the buyers don't care if the horse has papers or is branded", I know they don't but the breeder should care how their breeding stock and young ones measure up to other horses in this country. The comment that the judges are not looking for the hunter type is not true. This year infact at the AHS inspection in our area the judges commented that my colt had the look and movement that is being desired in the hunter ring. That's what buyers and breeders should want to know.

[glenda]

Good post JusJumpIt - just one small correction. First Monday was bred at White Oak Farms in Florida. His sire was a TB stallion that stood in Ocala and out of one of their DWB mares.

[lauriep]

Fascinating thread.

Although I am just becoming interested, a little in the breeding going on in this country, I bred Dalmatians successfully for many years, and there are many things that hold true in breeding dogs and horses. A couple of thoughts I had:

Chanda, as usual, I completely agree with you, and would add two things: the type of breeding you are doing, and well, I might add, is what I have referred to as "type to type" breeding, where you breed two specimens of a type and with the performance that you prefer, regardless of who is in the pedigree. Anecdotal information suggests that you can be every bit as successful using this type of breeding, and I know many Dal breeders who are, as in going completely on pedigree. I also have seen several of the popular stallions go, and using my type to type stategy, would never consider them. Don't care for their look, and my opinion wasn't changed by their movement/jump. Temperament can also be factored in.

Another item to consider in assessing h/j trainers interest in breeding is that they will be MUCH more interested if they have had a particular horse that they like and were successful with. They will probably be interested in locating more of similar breeding because they liked one individual. So the breeding information is really secondary.

The Europeans make sure we only see their best, not the mistakes. They are VERY GOOD at this little dance, make no mistake. And, as Chanda pointed out, they also have far greater numbers to deal with, so of course their success rate is going to go up too. But, I don't think you will see their leg hangers or pony gaited horses. They are culled long before the American buyers get there, but it doesn't mean they didn't happen.

Van made excellent points, too, and until American breeders can leave their egos at the door, lose the pet mentality and treat the breeding shed as a business and LISTEN to what the final judge of their product, the trainers/owners/riders, have to say, they will not be able to progress in this endeavor.

And lastly, until the "line" begins to reward what it should, proper conformation and movement that will develop into performance, these lovely, fat youngsters will continue to make beautiful field ornaments, or founder and have to be put down. Some of our biggest winners on the line have fields full of these horses, either dead or alive, that never saw the inside of a hunter ring because they couldn't perform.

[crestline]

Wow...some interesting stuff here...and boy am I late to the party! I guess I have a few thoughts on what's been said here...

First...I do feel I should comment on making generalizations about "my horse is Dutch" Hannoverian, holst., etc...and assuming that it means that a horse will fit into a certain mold. More often it is about what bloodline a horse is than what brand landed on it's behind. For example...our Dutch WB stallion is sired by HOLST stallion Caletto I and I'd wager can jump circles around (and out-hunter) most papered Dutch stallions of dressage lines. You can have an OLD registered horse whose parents are all HANN or all HOLST...or even all TB lines...and each can be different in type.

Second...I guess I must be a minority in breeders but it does prove we're out here. I WANT to know what someone doesn't like about any horse we have...and I want to hear it honestly. Truly how can I mold my program and more accurately describe what others think of my horses if no one will tell me feedback for risk of hurting my feelings. Sure, everyone has a certain type of horse they like for a certain job and there might be some variances...I recently had a young horse that a trainer wasn't too hot on...they next trainer fell madly in love...but isn't that horses?

I think once horses are 3,4,5 it does become about what their performance is AS WELL AS what their bloodlines are. But man...in nearly fifty foals we've had here, I just haven't had any that completely defied their breeding and shocked me too much. Sure, we bred a couple jumpers here and there that moved so good dressage folks snapped them up....and we've certainly bred hunters that became jumpers and jumpers that became hunters....but those horses were all impressive to some degree over a fence if that's what they were bred to do. Yes, I agree that buying a youngster is riskier than buying a made horse...but the gamble pays off for alot of people that go this route (and can't afford the option of the made horse route)...and many of them choose their foals by making their best educated guess on what the horse is bred to do.

Along the lines of breeders and trainers working together...it seems that more trainers would want to regularly be calling breeding farms to see what they have available. I'm not the only farm I know of with well raised, fancy, sane, professionally started young horses. As a breeder standing a stallion and foaling 5-8 of my own mares each year it's pretty hard to pack up and show the A shows...but we put miles on at the schooling shows...easier on the pocketbook but not always the place to be seen by the end buyers. Maybe it's breaking down the sterotype that breeders only have foals for sale...not started horses??

To answer the original posted question...I think it should be a GIVEN in the jumper ring both at shows and when televised that the breed sire/damsire, breeder and owner be mentioned. The hunter ring and dressage ring I think it should be mentioned either as the horse leaves the ring or as the classes are pinned...those are a little tougher since you don't want people saying it is the politics of the breeding as to why one horse does well at show over another.

Also...I must admit...I've been pretty impressed at how many trainers (and yes...well known successful trainers) have come up to me out of the blue to chat bloodlines at the big shows once they have seen Palladio jump. With his color they are never sure what they are looking at but when they ask and I say Caletto I...they all nod and smile...so there are at least some that do care about the breeding side of things.


OK...this got long..... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[heidiPg]

we are all making this way to complicated. The reason americans don't care about bloodlines is b/c everyone in america has way too much money. germans care about bloodlines b/c they don't have as much money and they have to make their own horses or breed them. Even people like Christian Alhman breed 20 mares a year hoping for the next Grand Prix horse. Yes he does have sponsors but if someone doesn't offer him a horse he doesn't have the money to go and buy a 300,000 euro horse like so many 10 year olds in america that have a string of 9 ponies. He will breed his own or buy a foal (max 10,000 euro) that is a Cassini-Caretino out of a fantastic mare from a great breeder that will more than likely jump a Grand Prix course. Some one show me a Cassini-Caretino that doesn't jump clear over 1.40m (not possible) And if the horse doesn't turn out to be international caliber he can sell it to the next american who comes along on their private jet and make money.
Of course the best riders and trainers in our country know about bloodlines- they are educated people that know about everything. Your average hunter/jumper "A" circuit trainer knows nothing about bloodlines b/c they know nothing about anything. Most don't even know the correct way to ride shoulder-in. Go to the horse shows and watch them school their horses on the flat. Riders like Chris Kappler are doing 45 minutes of dressage work. The rest of them are riding their jumpers like they ride the hunters...in 2 point with the horses nose sticking out....at least that is the way california riders are... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[MsHunter]

LaurieP go back earlier to one of my posts and it says exactly what your talking about.
Breeding "type" to "type". For me in 10 years of breeding and having 2-4 mares I have culled 3 mares in total out of the herd. The "type" wasn't one I wanted to spend the money repeating. On the other hand, the others ARE "the type".

Also, I will go back to stating the judging in the breeding ring IS subjective, which I can live with, doing it long enough you have NO choice. Instead of a set of standards being put in place it would be NICE to see the judges getting something out of their clinics. I feel the issue with judging in hand horses has MORE to do with people ONLY having a R in HB or being a more local judge with a card along with the R in the hunter ring. We call all think of some people we believe can separate out the horses similarly to what would win in a model conf class in WPB. THey need to evaluate a type, AND MORE EMPHASIS MUST be placed on MOVEMENT and SOUNDNESS.. Come on, lets all be real here. We have seen far too many limpers walk away with a prize. THe HB ring really COULD work to discriminate type toward future potential, however at this point it isn't doing it. In fact my best horses are the ones I have taken as yearlings and gotten those 3,4,5 place ribbons with usually (not always) as 2 year olds they get the 1,2 prize!! I am always scared the yearling winner will be the one that looks like a horse then and later as a 2 year old looks like a pony in movement and stature.

As far as the inspections go, get over it people. Some of us ARE professionals and we don't want to spend our time or money of someone elses opinion of our young horse, we bred what we wanted and we will get it to the desired ring of our choice or cull it out of the farm. WHY would I care if it was "premium"?
That still DOES NOT GUARANTEE ME IT WILL BE A SUCCESSFUL PERFORMANCE ANYTHING!

If USEF is tracking our parentage and we record our horses I see no problem with finding out bloodlines.

[Lucassb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KWF:
I guess the question here I was really asking is would people enjoy seeing/learning about pedigree stuff at the shows? I find it hard to believe that people who are really into horses would not enjoy learning about any aspect of them. Horse people are horse people and even though I'm not a farrier I enjoy seeing and learning what they have to say...maybe I'm unique but I love learning about horses whatever it may be about. I'm not saying you all have to buy our young horses or go out and breed yourself, I just find it hard to believe that you wouldn't enjoy learning about bloodlines etc at the shows. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You might want to go to a few H/J shows and see how things run before you proceed much further with this idea. I highly doubt that most exhibitors would make the time for a seminar on breeding. They are there to show, and getting that done is generally an all-day affair as it is.

I don't disagree that you can breed for such traits as jumping talent and temperment, both of which are desired by the great majority of amateur riders. However, the pitch for educating H/J riders on breeding generally translates into "and that is why you should go to a breeder for a baby instead of shopping for a made horse." As you have already heard, that approach is rarely attractive to the typical H/J rider - the working adult who boards their horse, and is paying through the nose for the privilege, never mind the training required to get a young horse to the point of being able to canter around a course and swap its leads.

Of course there are people with the facilities, means etc to raise and make up a young horse. But they are the exception in many areas, not the rule. First and foremost these are horses evaluated on PERFORMANCE and given the choice, most prefer to evaluate the individual on its merits, rather than on its parentage.

[khobstetter]

WHOA there fish...I don't believe breeders here "misrepresent"...that would mean they really want to out and out lie to us....I DON'T BELIEVE THAT FOR A MINUTE!!!!!

I just think there is a tendency to see their stock through rose colored glasses..that's all.

and for HeidiPG...
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Your average hunter/jumper "A" circuit trainer knows nothing about bloodlines b/c they know nothing about anything. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> at least that is the way california riders are... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Them be fighting words there!!!! Please do not disparage the California trainers specifically...they are a really outstanding group of trainers..... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

It's been a great thread so far...PLEASE do not flame me and my peers here on the Coast!!!!!!!

Hap is the "winningest" GP rider in the nation...HE COMES FROM AND HAS ALWAYS BEEN CALIFORNIAN!!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Riders like Chris Kappler are doing 45 minutes of dressage work <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Chris is an EXCEPTIONAL horseman...but I remember the first 15 years of his professional life......HE HAS EVOLVED INTO ONE OF OUR NATIONS BEST...but way back in Illinois in the beginning he was just like everyone else.....

He has chosen a SUPER PATH for himself....and with the family and "personal" help he has had along the way he is ABSOLUTELY AN EXAMPLE OF A GREAT RIDER...but he is not the only one!!!!!...ON EITHER COAST!!

MsHunter...I agree about our inspection process....IMHO it is flawed!!!!

[Linny]

I work in racing where breeding means more than in H/J. There are reasons for the difference.
In racing a HUGE percentage of the annual foal crop is sold at predetermined time, weanlings, yearlings or 2yo in training. Buyers at most sales have nothing but pedigree and looks to base buying choices. The exception is 2yo in training sales.
Once a horse is racing, unless a horse is being asked to do something new (ie. 1st time turf) no one cares about his breeding. There are plenty of sons of AP Indy and Slew running for bottom claiming tags. They never lived up to the breeding and their current owners just hope they hold together for a win at Turfway Park or Tampa Bay. A race horse may change hands many times and except for the novelty of a "famously bred" horse, once he's found his level no one cares about how he's bred.
Similarly a show horse may change hands. A nice youngster is chosen by a trainer to develop for a client. He turns into a nice 3'6 horse but owner has to sell him for outside reasons. He becomes a junior horse and does OK with a decent rider. Off she goes to colleg and little sis now has a childrens horse. Little sis goes to school and he's on the market again. The potential buyers are far more interested in his record as a packer than who is sire is.
Once a horse "finds his level" most folks don't bother to look at his breeding as a buying consideration.

[overlooked]

I've bred show hunters for almost 30 years now, and I've discovered that there are a FEW professionals (trainers, judges, trainer/judges) who really do care about breeding. They will come up to the owner/rider after a class and ask who this horse is and where he came from. If the breeder is VERY lucky, the owner/rider will give that information, in full. Usually, after receiving the same breeding info a few times, that trainer/judge will contact the breeder, and make arrangements to come see the stock for himself. The biggest problem for those of us who don't exhibit anything ourselves, and are strictly market breeders, is that often the investors are very reluctant to let anyone know where they got the horse. I suppose they hope to keep the farm a secret, like their own little private gold mine, so that whenever they're in the market for a fancy greenie, they will have the pick of the crop, or the pick of ALL the crops. Sadly, for the breeder, this attitude doesn't result in enough sales, and he/she is forced to cut back production to fit the smaller market, and then this lack of willingness to promote the horse's family backfires on the investor. As far as trying to educate the average show rider on the value of genetics in hunters, the average rider really doesn't care, because, as everyone has said, she's going to buy whatever her trainer tells her to buy, and 99% of them are going to buy made horses anyway.
http://www.oditech.com/~allenstockfarm

[LLDM]

Just a couple of points:

On one hand, some of you say that Hunter Breeding classes are flawed, on the other hand you think inspections are flawed. Yet you will go buy in Europe where everything you are shown is a product of the inspection systems there.

You don't care about registering your horses, but you want people to breed for the hunters (or breed for the hunters yourselves). How do you then link pedigree to performance? The registration process is (for a very large part) proof of pedigree, with DNA proof. Or else every horse will suddenly be the produce of sucessful mares and stallions. Or gets to start over with a new name/ID number, which happens all the time now.

You will go to Europe with check book in hand and wonder why they are all so nice and helpful. Well, you are a qualified buyer with limited time and an investment in your travel. The whole thing is set up for you to "buy now", rather than to go home, sleep on it and talk yourself out of it. Or think that that same nice horse will be there waiting for you in another month or so.

In Europe both the trainers and the breeders are qualified by strict systems and guidelines. It is just as hard for me, as a breeder to find quality trainers as it is for trainers to find quality breeders here in the US. At least the warmblood breeders here who participate in the registries submit themselves to the judgement and standards of the European parent registry. At least it gives trainers a starting place. What standards do the trainers here comform to here? How do I find trainers that are 1) Ethical, 2) Interested in young horses, 3) Good at developing young horses, 4) Willing exchange knowledge and information with like breeders?

I have established relationships with a hunter trainer, a dressage trainer and an eventing trainer. The eventing trainer is by far the most helpful and interested. The hunter trainer wants lots of money to bring along my horses for the hunter ring, would allow various students to ride it and expects me to pay for training board and all show expenses. But won't sell it until it has a show record. Similar situation with the dressage trainer, but doesn't expect as many shows or students to ride. Every time I ask about other trainers, they just tell me the negative stuff about them.

I do go to shows sometimes to try and make contacts. Hunter shows are the worst for this, as trainers are not very approachable, nor encouraging when I do approach them. I am pretty low key and very honest. Any advice here would be appreciated. I have had much better luck at dressage shows and am developing a new contact from the last one I went to. This IS much easier on the dressage side.

KH - You and I have disussed this before, always in a civil manner. You must admit that there are just as many crappy hunter trainers as there are crappy breeders in this country. And there are far too many of both. I think a huge problem for both is weeding through the crap. It is way too time comsuming.

Since there is no centralized quality control here, this is where it stands. It goes back and forth and people get their backs up, mostly becasue the remarks are taken to literally.

Here's my plan: Build a system. It will probably be with the dressage and maybe the eventer folks. Becasue they are smaller, their orgs are established, and they each have a certified trainer program. My assumption is that if we build something, the H/J folks will come, just as they go to Europe. I don't know if the H/J folks will buy, but I think they will show up just to make sure they aren't missing something. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

In the mean time I will listen to anyone here that has some positive suggestions. I won't pay much attention to a rehash of all the problems, as I already know most of them all too well.

SCFarm

[lauriep]

Breeders, selling your young stock directly to h/j trainers is always going to be difficult to impossible. IMO, your best bet is to encourage those who have indicated an interest in establishing young horse training centers, and establish relationships with them. Send your bablies to them to be started well and subsequently sold. Develop a system with them where all will benefit financially from this relationship.

In return for you keeping a constant supply of babies coming in, the trainers of these horses will invest their time and expertise and eventually advertising $ to get the trainers to come and buy well-started 3-5 year olds that are ready to go do the pre-greens. And, if you can work at keeping costs low, you can also provide affordable horses for the non-A crowd who must buy youg horses because of the $$, but don't really know how to go about training one themselves.

And, I do not think you must import riders/trainers from Europe to do this. The talent is here, but they must be shown that they can make just as much of a name for themselves as a great young horse trainer as they can going to the horse shows.

[LLDM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
And, I do not think you must import riders/trainers from Europe to do this. The talent is here, but they must be shown that they can make just as much of a name for themselves as a great young horse trainer as they can going to the horse shows. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with your whole post. However it is the above that seems to be the main problem. The "talent" here does not believe that they can be sucessful, make a name for themselves without being on the circuit, or put in the same level of grunt work that most breeders and newbie trainers do to make this happen.

Just about all the models we have come up with for young horse training centers are relying on European "imported" trainers to get them going. Mostly because the domestic versions want too much money to make it cost effective. So, yes, we may have to start with imported talent. Maybe that will change if we can make such a system sucessful and prove that it works.

In the mean time, do you have any suggestions as to how we convince the "locals" to come on board? It isn't so much a question of talent as it is credentials and a willingness to try and make something like this work.

SCFarm

[LLDM]

I keep forgetting to give a "shout out" to the pony breeders! We have some amazing pony breeders in this country who have indeed made it in the hunter ring!

And they don't seem to have a problem with folks changing the names of their ponies! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I doff my hat to all those pony breeders who have established themselves, their breeding programs, their organizations, their incentive classes and their good names and reputations!

Well Done!

SCFarm

[cherham]

Interesting thread as always http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Had to snicker though when I read that NA breeders do not breed for "hunters". Gee the Canadian Sport Horse Association (AKA previously known as the Canadian Hunter Improvement Society) is solidly based on breeding hunters.....traditionally the old type field hunters in the early 1920's to the more defined "conformation hunter" or present day. Almost 19,000 horses since 1926 (not a typo that IS the correct number registered now in the CSHA stud books) show a long, long history of hunter breeding in NA. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

What I think is sorta funny is that now the Dutch Warmblood (KWPN) Registry has started its own hunter breeding division specifically aimed at producing conformation hunters for the NA show ring. Sorry guys.....we are way ahead of you on that onehttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Leena]

LLDM, there is something we forget about European system; horses should be registered for showing. This make a huge difference on the market.

This is true that as long as a horse jump, who would care for bloodlines. But when you enter big shows, grand prix, you start to care about bloodlines.

Buying a horse with papers and bloodlines, it is all the difference. I feel I have informations on relatives so I know what to expect. Or at least, I have a better idea.

I felt the same when I bought my first registered dog. Why did I bought her ? Because I wanted to compete in obedience and one rule of the show is registered dog only can compete.

A good breeder will guarantee character, he will care about his product and be probably in the audience to see his product in the ring.

Yes a no registered horse could do the job, yes he can win a class, but for how long ? Do we have information about character, relatives than won.

This thread is very good but that discussion could go on and on as long as there is so many different opinions.

[khobstetter]

I agree with LaurieP and with LLDM (to an extent).

It is difficult for hunter/jumper trainers to "build relationships" here, to an extent, BECAUSE...we simply do not have time to waste with stroking personal emotions regarding breeders stock....if a trainer is doing a quality job they do not have time to babysit a breeder.

I have 3-5 breeders I am closely involved with here in the states, I do their babies, I sell their young stock, I successfully show and sell their Stallions (Ragtime-hunter, Oslivos-GPjumper, Corofinato-eventing prospect, etc) and I do a good job of it.

They REALLY REALLY respect my opinion and DO NOT get offended when I am brutally honest about their stock..and they allow me to be a HUGE part of their sorting process..and their pricing!!!

AT THE SAME TIME..there are an additional 4-5 breeders who sent me horses that were not what they represented to me as being..when I told them it was crooked legged and would NOT be a conformation horse (in spite of it being beautiful), or told them it did not jump with it's knees good enough to be a hunter, it did not have the scope to be a jumper...or so on and so on...THEY GOT MAD AND WENT TO "FIND SOMEONE" WHO WOULD AGREE WITH THEM!!

One lady sent me a horse from another state and when it got here it had a bump on a leg...THEN she told me it had "ONLY SLIGHTLY" bowed a tendon jumping in a "small" show over "ONLY" 3 foot jumps as a 3 year old!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif It also had a suspensory, was an ordinary looking paint (by Rainbow) and a stride about 6' long!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

She was LIVID that I did not think the horse was worth more than $5000.00 at best!! And went away REALLY REALLY mad at me when I told her it was NOT the Indio winner...

Her rational....."I have ALOT of money in this one, I bred to Rainbow, I used my SUPER QH/arab mare, I got GREAT color, anyone can ride it (western broke) and the Inspections placed her in the Main Mare book....OBVIOUSLY YOUDON'T UNDERSTAND THE WANT FOR PAINT SPORTHORSES!!!!! bye bye!!!

She is now out of breeding and BLAMES IT ALL ON "THE TRAINERS".

I simply do not have time for this....I sell alot of horses, we train them kindly and safely, we win like crazy with them when we get to the ring...and I DO NOT want to deal with all the personal emotions!!!!
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> You will go to Europe with check book in hand and wonder why they are all so nice and helpful. Well, you are a qualified buyer with limited time and an investment in your travel. The whole thing is set up for you to "buy now", rather than to go home, sleep on it and talk yourself out of it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

YES BUT!!!!!!!!!!! They do not get offended if I don't like a specific horse. They do NOT BAD MOUTH me if I don't buy from them...they try like crazy to stay in touch and provide different horses the next time I am there. I keep going to those Professional people, I buy alot of horses from them and we all go have drinks together...WHETHER I BUY OT NOT!!!!!

HERE.....if I don't like a specific horse they may ask why...I tell them, they get REALLY snotty and short...and then BAD MOUTH us after we are gone.

NOPE&gt;&gt;&gt;DON'T NEED THAT CRAP!!!! I only want to sell horses and market nice stock appropriately priced....

AND I COMLPETELY AGREE.....let's build a system....count me in to help BIG time!!!!

**edited for spelling.. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[fish]

"WHOA there fish...I don't believe breeders here "misrepresent"...that would mean they really want to out and out lie to us....I DON'T BELIEVE THAT FOR A MINUTE!!!!!

I just think there is a tendency to see their stock through rose colored glasses..that's all."

Actually, I believe I got that word from your post-- and kind of debated using it myself, because I, too, believe that a great deal of the "misrepresentation" was very likely not intentional-- that's why I said that more of our sellers need to "know what they have" so they don't end up discouraging buyers. A good case in point is the height issue I mentioned-- when I started shopping, I was looking for a horse that was bigger than the one I already had,. Since I had been told my horse was 15.3h when I bought him, I told people I needed "at least 16 hands"-- and drove 100's and 1000's of miles only to find horses that were smaller than what I already owned. When I finally bought a stick and measured my own "15.3 hand" horse, I found out that he was actually only 15.1 --- and if I had put him up for sale, I, too, would have been one of the ones misrepresenting my horse!! It therefore came as no surprise that when I campaigned my 16.2h horse, a great many people insisted she "must be at least 17 hands!"

Kind of too bad for the owners of some of those supposedly 16h horses--- they might have done pretty well if they'd known they had ponies!

To me, the moral of the story is not so much a matter of honest vs. dishonest people as it is one regarding the need for better education/communication, which could both be facilitated if we had more sport horse events/auctions/sales similar to what they have in Europe-- and to what we have for our racing stock here. It is, after all, pretty hard to claim one's horse is big if she's surrounded by 100's the same age who're obviously bigger!

I must say, though, that I know for a fact that there IS a lot of "tell them what they want to hear" going on--- that was, after all, the (professional) advice I got when I had my daughter's pony up for sale 12 years ago. I had a hard time getting people to come out when I anwered questions honestly: e.g., one man asked me if the pony "ever spooked" and I said "of, course, she's very quiet and a true packer, but she's an equine, not a machine." The guy decided not to come see her and when I asked him why, he said "well, I figure that if you admit she spooks at all, she must be a real freak." As I see it, a lot of sellers end up being less than honest because they're so desperate to get people to come to their farms, and then the buyers get discouraged about making those drives because they've gone on so many wild goose chases-- it's all a vicious circle -- one which the Europeans have (????) somehow found ways to escape???

BTW-- I never got anyone to come out to my farm to see that pony-- tried for 6 months, finally gave up and took her to a BNT, who had her sold 3 times over within days-- and ended up keeping her for his own kids. It definitely seems to be all about connections-- and somehow building a name and history which generates trust.

[lauriep]

Leena, I don't know how it is in Canada with showing dogs, but here, to show in performance (agility and obedience, lure coursing, etc.) you only need an ILP number, not a registration. ILP stands for Indefinite Listing Privilage and is obtained by taking pictures of your dog and submitting them and any history you know to the AKC. If the dog looks like what it is supposed to be, or you can provide proof that it is the breed you say, then they will give you the ILP # that allows you to show in competitions for purebred dogs. Of course, in conformation, it must be a registered dog as, in theory, this is where the breeding stock comes from.

And, it is a well-known fact that an AKC registration is only so much paper and in no way indicates quality. Poor quality animals are shown (and win) every single day.

In horses, I think that if a certain bloodline has been shown to CONSISTENTLY produce those qualities that you are looking for in a hunter or jumper, then you should pursue those bloodlines. But there are so many breeds and crosses out there to choose from, it is tough to know where to start. Which is why I said that a trainer probably wouldn't be bothered unless he has had a horse that he was particularly pleased with that he wanted to try to duplicate.

LLDM, I will PT you more about this, but it will most certainly be a process. A trainer/horseman is going to need some sort of "in" to start with, whether name recognition, close contacts with trainers who would be willing to give him a chance, or that one lucky sale that puts him on the map. That is the kind of thing that it is going to take to get American trainers to forgo a trip to Europe and check out a program here. But you better be prepared to show him what he wants, because you won't get a second chance, IMO.

Kath, that is exactly what I meant by losing the egos and "pet" mentality and be real and honest about your breeding program. I've seen too much kennel and barn blindness and it never helps achieve the goal. No one breeds all winners, and when you can admit that, go back and do further research on how you got what you got, you can then move on and fix it. Refusing to listen to the users of your product will simply send you out of the business sooner.

[lauriep]

A useful lesson I learned which can be applies here:

Go and watch many classes at many shows. Make notes (without checking breeding; go entirely on type and performance) of the horses that make you go "Wow." When you are done, THEN go back and check the breeding on these animals. If you are consistent with your taste and choices, you will probably find that most of your choices are similarly bred and go back to just a couple of bloodlines. THAT is a good eye, and tells you you are on the right track. If you can't do this, and only are interested in what is winning TODAY, you won't go far in this business.

And one more thing: the qualities you are looking for don't always come from the parents. So, if you see a horse you like, look to the GRANDPARENTS as well, if you don't like the parents. Your answer may be there.

[khobstetter]

FISH......OH MY......I am so sorry!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Here, when I would try to go to the farms and buy.....most of the time the horses were NOT as they were represented.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It's interesting how one can say something and SINCERELY mean it one way, and yet it can be taken another...

I in no way meant to infer that breeders "MISREPRESENT" their horses...only that they LOVE their stock and sometimes present them to us from that perspective..BUT when we get there they are not as stated.

"MISREPRESEANT"..to me means "on purpose to cheat"........

"not as they were represented"..TO ME..means the owner simply did not know that a leg was crooked or the horse didn't jerk their knees or it didn't move good,,,usually they don't know because IMHO they are too close to be objective, OR they really didn't know!!

SORRY TO ANY OF THE BREEDERS IF YOU TOOK THIS AS FISH DID,,,,,I CERTAINLY DID NOT MEAN IT AS A "MISREPRESENT" IN MY VOCABULARY!!!!

[khobstetter]

LLDM..I agree with LaurieP here.

It is a "romantic" idea that you can import a European rider and do it cost effective..
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Just about all the models we have come up with for young horse training centers are relying on European "imported" trainers to get them going. Mostly because the domestic versions want too much money to make it cost effective <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
A "young horse training center"...IMHO opinion....will not work here..and it doesn't work in Europe either.

Here BECAUSE the costs of boarding and care is still the same and the really good riders from there will NOT work for free..it stills costs ALOT of money...but THAT Is why we get more for the horses over here. It costs almost nothing to keep them there...and they get less. Here it costs more..and we get more. Think RESALE!!

I personally think the issue here is Breeder/Trainers LONG TERM relationships..THAT is what is selling horses there..the connections and relationships..

We go to the TRAINERS over there...not some "training center"...

We need to build a program that works..and it can be a bit of a "prototype" of "THERE"...with an American influence.

Shall we give it a try..?? Why don't LaurieP, myself and 2 (only 2) breeders have a conference call..I will pay.. and see if we can dialoge......

Any takers?????????????????

BUT BUT BUT BUT....IF LAURIEP AND I GET FLAMED...WE ARE GONE GONE GONE FAR FAR FAR AWAY!!!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

[LLDM]

KH - I would love to confrence call with you. However, I am trying to get my barn straight before I run off to the USDF convention. Yep, the USDF. Why? Becasue it is focused around young horses this year! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Including marketing and training & delvelopment. So I have decided to go pull up a chair, listen and speak up for the breeders.

Also, I am a little surprised that you ended up with breeders who got mad at you for being honest. Trust me, you couldn't be more brutally honest than my German inspectors - AND I PAY them for that honesty! Now, they are not telling me how to breed for the hunters. But they are telling me about every conformation issue (in gory detail), any deviation in correct movement, quality of gaits (albeit from a dressage perspective) and what they want in type. Yep, they do have people who leave in a snit. They also have plenty of poeple like me taking notes and asking more questions. And thanking them.

BTW - There are a number of breeders that import barieters, both short and long term. Becasue they will work hard for little money - as it gives them international experience. Plus they have the qualifications from the German system. Some BNT "imported" dressage trainers only take working students from Europe.

KH - I will tell you this - If you want to find good breeders, call the breed registry of your choice and ask them for a list of good breeders near you. Tell them who you are and that you are looking to build relationships. I seriously doubt they will send you to the "emotional" breeders. And they DO know which ones those are.

Now - Please tell me how to find the right hunter trainers! Who do I call? How do I check their credentials? I have not had very good luck so far. That doesn't mean I think all hunter trainers suck, it means I don;t know the secret handshake. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I also agree about the honesty issue. If you are really honest, no one will come out and look. If I say, nope, this isn't the next Strapless, but this is a nice, pretty horse that will be regionally competitive at 3'6", but won't win the hack and yet will probably make up to pack an ami around. Not a conformation hunter, but sound and built to stay that way. How many people will come look at that. I can tell you - None. But that is what I had. And what most people need and can afford. Now if I "market" only the good qualities, then I am not being honest. But if I am truthful and up front, then people think I am hiding something. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

KH - Just refreshed and saw your last post! You go to trainers? That explains a lot. When breeders go they go to breeders. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

SCFarm

[khobstetter]

LLDM..wish I was going to USDF with you..I bet it's really a good one!!

Let me be sure you and I have the same understanding....I don't just "go to the trainers"...remember that soooooooooo many of the trainers are breeders...and the breeders have their own home riders/working students/trainers...

Here is a shorthand run down of the last trip I just got home from...these are directly from my notes..

Day 1..Rainers...a decades old breeder with 2 trainer sons, 3 indoor arenas and many many horses. we saw:
1. Black mare, 5 yr, 16.3+, beautiful type, dressgae background. Easy in the mouth, umps 120-130. Free jumps in impeccable form. $25K Euro
2. Chestnut geld, older (11?) 16.2, blaze, 2 high hind socks. Big bodied EQ type, moves good, jumps great and looks like it can do the 4' easy. Ridden exclusively by a young lady off to school. VERY comfortable and attractive, little sticky left-right change $18k Euro
3. Liver chestnut mare, 6 yr, 16_, blaze, 3 high socks. "Limited" as far as the jumpers..doing 130's..Tony rode and it jumped BEAUTIFULLY hunter. $30k Euro
4. Grey Geld, 9 yr, 16 h, very sensitive and hot...NOT my type.
5. Brown geld, 7 yr, 16.1h, difficult for Americans..NOT my typw
6. Bay gelding, 5 yr, 16.2, BEAUTIFUL, spectacular type...to difficult for us.

Same day..Erins..a trainer..we saw
1. Grey gelding, DARK dapple grey, 5 yr, 16.1 1/2, jumps a 10, moves great, yanks it's knees, lots of "style" classes..THE WINNER! EASY to ride...$30k Euro

Day 2....Yureor's.....trainer on an old time breeding farm.
1. Bay mare, 16 h, 5-6 yr. VERY scopy, jumper really good and has A LOT of jump. Looked a bit "difficult" but was sooooooooo easy to ride. Placed really high in the Bondeschampionade (sp) $25k Euro
2. Cassini Grey mare, 6 yr 16.1 1/2, white grey, BIG bodied. pretty, easy changes auto, comfortable and great disposition, jumped in good form no matter the distance. $30k Euro
3. Bay gelding 16.1 plain..NOT my type
4. Black mare.....very cute BUT HOT!!!!!!!!!
5. Bay geld, 4 yr, 16+h, blaze 2 socks. Very pretty. Moved quite cute, easy to ride, spunky with personality, jumps in great form. Just started. $13k Euro

Same day...Karl's...a HUGE breeder, one of the main stallion producers..has his own trainers and wk students..
1. Grey gelding, 7? yr, 16.2+, LOTS of show miles. Very nice to ride, scopy, easy leads, Tony rode great and jumped HIGH. We love this one... $30k Euro
2. Liver chestnut geld, 9 yr, 16.1, flaxen mane and tail, EQ type but nice for the hunters. Small blaze and 2 high socks, lovely mouth, changes great. BEAUTIFUL type. Quiet, supple. $25k Euro
3. Black mare, 16.2, 6 yr,small strip 2 hind socks. SOOOO beautiful and easy to ride..any child!!! Jumps great, changes, quiet, lovely mouth. INDIO!! $20k Euro
4. Grey geld, 16+ 6 yr. VERY cute, changes, jumps great..lovely horse but just not my type..$22k Euro

Same day...Michaels...a Denmark rider who trains at a big farm/breeder in Hamburg. Probably 90 horses on the place...a young man brought 3 for us to see from Denmark
1. Black geld, 7 yr, 16.2, BEAUTIFUL german type, big bodied, very gentle, easy!!! Big step, great form...A SUPER first horse or medal horse for anyone!! xray changes $15k Euro
2. Grey mare, 16.2, 8 yr. Jumps a 10, moves a 10, pretty, fashionable and a bit too hot for me. $15k Euro
3. Brown mare....16+, no white....unusual build...gave us the crack up giggles...NOT my type, but I would own it in a minute if I lived here. $10k Euro
4. Brown gelding 16.1, 8 yr, VERY big lop ears. I LOVE THIS ONE!!! He is so cute, special, honest, useful and wonderful. Jumped great, changed leads and will jump thru fire QUIETLY for anyone...$25k Euro

DAy 3....Wold's...a huge breeder/"snacker" (dealer)..has working student riders
1. Brown gelding, 5 yr, 16.2, Beautiful type, wonderful to ride...an EQ deluxe..COMFORTABLE!! 130-140's easy!! Sound, clean with xrays. $30k Euro
2. Bay 3 yr old geld, 16+, very pretty, beautiful mover, jumped super (the first jumps are with us) $10k Euro
3. Plain brown gelding...NOT my type
4. Chestnut 2 yr old, geld, free jumped really good....great hunter prospect..$12k Euro
4. Dark brown mare, 16.2, 4 yr, very nice type, moved nicely, easy to ride...a bad scar..

Same day...Volker's....a trainer WAY up by Kiel..
1. Bay gelding, 6 yr, LOTS of white, unique lookinf, 6 yr, 16.1 1/2, 130's winner-style winner. Super type, extremely cute/pretty and easy to ride. We jumped the top of the standards..Tony loved this one...$35k Euro...

So that is a sample of a quick 3 day trip that we also spent time at the Stallion Approvals that weekend. The Approvals was the reason we were there......so didn't have too much shopping time.

I go to breeders/trainers and so on......notice that I only made reference to the breeding on 1....BUT we talked about the breeding on every horse, every time...AD NAUSEAUM!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[van]

OK, so I think we are on the right page here... suffice it to say that there are good and bad everything (breeders, and hunter trainers alike), but that some of us are very approachable, and would love to have quality relationships with each other. Trust me, I would MUCH rather shop close to home (in fact the last one I bought I found very close, but he had been imported by someone else). KHobstetter's itinerary and notes are much like the rest of ours that travel overseas, and hopefully it can give some insight to our breeders on pricing, and the kind of quality we get to see in such numbers of horses over there. The other invaluable message is that we all shop with people we have had long standing relationships with...BECAUSE they truly know what they have, what we like, and how much we think is fair to pay. Of course, we are not opposed to making new relationships, and you can bet that if you call me and tell me you have a beautiful, typey, great moving horse with plenty of step, and a slow, correct jump and it turns out to be what you said it was and is priced fairly, not only will I buy it, but I will make sure yoiu have my number on speed dial so you call me the next time you see or have another!!

Vanessa Brown
www.derbyhillfarm.com (http://www.derbyhillfarm.com)

[MsHunter]

van, in general, what do you think of as fair in price for yearlings, 2 year olds and 3 year olds of "the right type" and then 4 year olds?
If your like me the price can be astronomically greater in the US at 4 if they are the "real deal" which is why I have been trying to hold onto what I have.

Yet, again, I got a call tonight that someone HAS to come see the 2 coming 3 year old for all the money. The problem isn't someone seeing her now as much as that I don't body clip the ones that are hanging out being babies and not showing until February. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif
How can they look perrttty when they are all fuzzy. YIKES http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif All the 'explaining' in the world can't change that.
I'd rather wait until March thank you very much!

[van]

MsHunter,

I will answer this to the best of my abilities, and accompany it with my rationale. I personally stay far, far away from anything under three years of age, because they can change so much still, and I don't feel it is fair to test a horse that young to show me what I need to see. However, since my customer's do breed 7 to 10 foals a year, I am finding that I am being forced to price some of these. As a rule, if they look like the right type (hunter, or jumper), I reccommend that we keep them until at least 2 years of age.

When they are 2, we put them through the jumping chute. Once again, if they show very good instinct, and they still are developing beautifully, then I reccommend we keep them through the year and re-evaluate at 3. During this year we do some long lining, etc, and start to get an idea of their temperament, and natural tendencies.

When they are 3, or 3 1/2 if they are bigger bodied, we break them to ride. We walk/ trot/canter, and then kick them back out for a few months. The next time they come in, we will jump them a little. If by this time they still show that they are the "real deal", I am very comfortable pricing them. I will clarify that by the "real deal" as a hunter, the horse must have a beautiful head, look through the bridle beautifully, have flawless conformation and a stunning natural topline. He must be an 8 to 10 mover at the trot (with shoes), and a 9 or 10 canter with great natural balance and length of stride. Most of these do their changes naturally! The horse must have a natural tendency towards being quiet, and approach work confidently and intelligently. He must have God giving ability to back up at the jump, and follow through with a high, slow effort, and use both ends impressively. Of course, it must also be sound and have good radiographs.For a mid 3 or 4 year old that is all these things, but very green still, and obviously not been to any horse shows, I would be very happy giving $30 to $45k as a 3 year old, $40 to $65k as a 4 year old. Of course, I really like it when I can find this model for $25k! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Any horse that is less than described above, should be priced accordingly.

Sorry this is getting so long, but I think what I am saying is if you are a breeder and you really have one you think is that kind of quality, you are better off getting it broke, and to an age where you can market it to the trainer's that will truly appreciate the quality, and end up showing it places (hopefully very successfully) that will give you and your breeding program some credibility (I am not saying this about your program in particular, am just saying it in general terms).I think sometimes by selling your good foals too young, they end up as projects for people who want to raise a baby and break it themself, etc, etc. and never get any exposure in the world that you are trying to breed for (presumably the best A Circuit hunter competitions).

Did I amswer all the questions? Probably not... if I didn't cover the angle you were looking for, please ask again (one question at a time for my over analytical brain http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

vanessa brown
www.derbyhillfarm.com (http://www.derbyhillfarm.com)

[Little Indian]

I have never bought a horse based on bloodlines. Though now that I have had Gomez for a year and a half and have done some research on his parents, i like the lines he has. Mostly because his sire is in the 13-15 year old range and is still competing in the grand prixs in europe. I hope this means I will have a sound horse for the future (Gomez is a lifer, as are all of ours). He has only been sore once, and it was because he kept on pulling shoes and then stepping on hard rocks and then brusing himself...He is 3/4 Hanoverian and 1/4 Trak, but is reg. and branded westfalen.

[crestline]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I think sometimes by selling your good foals too young, they end up as projects for people who want to raise a baby and break it themself, etc, etc. and never get any exposure in the world that you are trying to breed for (presumably the best A Circuit hunter competitions).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK...I totally agree with this!!! We sell our foals young if people want them but I can't even tell you guys how many really nice, talented, well bred horses from our farm have not made it to the ring since their new owners (that love them very much) don't take them there. I've got three at home right now that I am trying to talk Mr. Crestline into keeping around as I would love to have them step into the ring in 3-4 years....at least then I would be sure that they were in a home that wanted them competitive in the show ring.

[heidiPg]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>and for HeidiPG...
[QUOTE] Your average hunter/jumper "A" circuit trainer knows nothing about bloodlines b/c they know nothing about anything. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> at least that is the way california riders are... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Them be fighting words there!!!! Please do not disparage the California trainers specifically...they are a really outstanding group of trainers..... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

It's been a great thread so far...PLEASE do not flame me and my peers here on the Coast!!!!!!!

Hap is the "winningest" GP rider in the nation...HE COMES FROM AND HAS ALWAYS BEEN CALIFORNIAN!!!!



sorry to make you so mad khobstetter but i clearly stated the AVERAGE HUNTER/JUMPER trainer. I would NEVER consider HAP to be an average trainer or average rider. You must admit there are thousands of trainers in California and many are average and don't know a whole lot. I never said you were average (I don't even know you!) and I would never consider riders and trainers like HAP average.

[khobstetter]

Hi HeidiPg...

Sorry..just gets me ticky when specifics are made on a thread like this.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> You must admit there are thousands of trainers in California and many are average and don't know a whole lot. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I will "admit" that there are thousands of trainers throughout this nation!!!..AND many are average..California is not specific to anything like that any more than any other state is!!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> and don't know a whole lot. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
THAT sounds pretty negative. Unless I can stand at the TOP of the BIG ring line in front of trainers...I prefer to not cast statements that the ones ahead of me "don't know anything"...

Not "mad" at you...just that this thread has been soooooooooooooooooooo productive, civil and GREAT dialog...IMHO because we have all stated our position without getting "specific".

I have very stong feelings about breeding and "breeders" BUT I would NEVER NEVER NEVER say something like........You must admit there are thousands of BREEDERS in TEXAS and many are average and don't know a whole lot.
PS PS PS PS.... just an example!!! I use Texas in this post because I have GREAT breeder friends in Texas that I DO business with...I just sent a 2 year old stallion there!!!!!

TEXAS would whoop my arse!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO..thank you for pointing out I missed the word "AVERAGE"....I did and I am sorry......I just really really am enjoying the dialoge and civility here right now..

Again, sorry I missed the word!

[fish]

'scuse me, but I've lived and ridden in California, Massachusetts, Florida, Arizona, North Carolina, etc., etc.-- and can assure you that the "average" h/j trainer is pretty much the same everywhere-- and so is the top, and the bottom. California has had-- and continues to have-- many of the best: Jimmy Williams, Susie Hutchinson, Karen Healy, Hugh Vidal-- in addition to Hap Hansen. Over here on the East Coast, we've got George Morris, Katie Prudent, Aaron Vale, Danny Robertshaw-- and I hear there are good, bad and middling trainers in the "red" states, too.

Seems to me that's the way it is everywhere, and in every profession. Re: horse training, Michelle Gibson says they even have idiots in Germany. On the bright side, I think it's undeniable that the overall level of horsemanship and quality of horses have both risen incredibly from coast to coast over the last 20-30 years, as the popularity of our sport increases.

[khobstetter]

AGREE AGREE AGREE.....well said.

[buschkn]

do people REALLY pay $65K for fancy FOUR YEAR OLDS?!?! this is incredible to me! i am an ammy who trains young horses for myself. i am very busy with my "regular job" but in a couple years hope to phase out of this and do more with the horses, buying young ones, bringing them along, selling, etc. This discussion has been great for me to read and see what everyone thinks. I do agree that most people are not able, (or willing?), to pick a young horse out of the crowd, bring it along to maximize it's potential, and show it or sell it on. One of my goals is to compete in GP jumpers, hopefully international. BUT I also really enjoy finding horses and bringing them along. I was able to buy a $1400 horse, and through selling him, buying another, and selling that one, I now have a $18K horse who is worth a fortune more. It is very exciting and fun to be able to do this and watch them come along. I do not feel, like someone else mentioned, that I would be able to build a name for myself just by doing this (buying/selling babies), though I might like to. Most people want BNTs, etc so they "know" they're getting a good horse. Ironic, of course, for many reasons, but probably true in many cases.

I think that all the comments regarding breeders (AND trainers!) not knowing what they have, or not representing them accurately are dead on. One of the problems I see in this business with people trying to make a living, or selling horses, is that people ARE unrealistic. Most really do think they have nice horses, even when they are average. It's the rose-colored glasses that were mentioned. Part of the problem is that people will see a decent horse that has some potential and buy it to re-sell. There are too many people buying average horses to market as sport horses. We need to concentrate on horses that are much better than just average, outstanding even. We, as consumers, need to demand better quality. Not that those horse don't have their place in the world, but people (breeders/trainers/sellers/et al) can't be frustrated that the A circuit world isn't beating down the doors to spend a bunch of money on average movers, jumpers, and personalities.

And some, NOT all, of the onus is on breeders. If people keep buying average horses in this country, people will keep breeding them. Until we demand better, we will not get it. In Europe, they have systems in place to try and produce outstanding sporthorses every time. Does it work? No. Does it work better than here? Yes. The reason prices of nice horses are less there is b/c there are MORE of them to choose from. The prices here are exorbitant b/c they are so much harder to find. At least to find consistently.

Anyway, I like the discussion going on. I think some people are on the right track here! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif We are working on it!

[van]

buschkn,

Yes, people really will, and do spend $65k on a four year old that has not stepped in the ring yet. That said, please CAREFULLY read the description givin of said horse that I said I would be comfy paying that for! To me, it is the "perfect" four year old in every way, and I can assure you that they are so few and far between that it would make you cry! It is the decription of the elusive "the one". The type of horse that when you see it, you truly believe it could become the next truly famous hunter... one that others are compared to for years to come.

Vanessa Brown
www.derbyhillfarm.com (http://www.derbyhillfarm.com)

[LLDM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by buschkn:
do people REALLY pay $65K for fancy FOUR YEAR OLDS?!?!
<span class="ev_code_BLUE">Not directly from the breeder, no. This is why it is good to shop directly with your local serious breeders. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </span>
&lt;snip&gt; I do not feel, like someone else mentioned, that I would be able to build a name for myself just by doing this (buying/selling babies), though I might like to.
<span class="ev_code_BLUE">This is exactly the "bridge" we need to build - people who want to bring along nice horses, that then feed them to the BNTs.</span>
Most people want BNTs, etc so they "know" they're getting a good horse. Ironic, of course, for many reasons, but probably true in many cases.

I think that all the comments regarding breeders (AND trainers!) not knowing what they have, or not representing them accurately are dead on. One of the problems I see in this business with people trying to make a living, or selling horses, is that people ARE unrealistic. Most really do think they have nice horses, even when they are average. It's the rose-colored glasses that were mentioned. Part of the problem is that people will see a decent horse that has some potential and buy it to re-sell. There are too many people buying average horses to market as sport horses. We need to concentrate on horses that are much better than just average, outstanding even. We, as consumers, need to demand better quality. Not that those horse don't have their place in the world, but people (breeders/trainers/sellers/et al) can't be frustrated that the A circuit world isn't beating down the doors to spend a bunch of money on average movers, jumpers, and personalities.
<span class="ev_code_BLUE">Well it works both ways. I know some breeders & trainers who don't know they have a good hunter prospect, only that they don't have the dressage/eventing/jumper horse of their dreams. Many nice horses in this country have the wrong job. This is less likely to happen in Europe - not so many jobs (disciplines) to choose from and much more overlap between the ones that are there.</span>

And some, NOT all, of the onus is on breeders. If people keep buying average horses in this country, people will keep breeding them. Until we demand better, we will not get it. In Europe, they have systems in place to try and produce outstanding sporthorses every time. Does it work? No. Does it work better than here? Yes. The reason prices of nice horses are less there is b/c there are MORE of them to choose from. The prices here are exorbitant b/c they are so much harder to find. At least to find consistently.
<span class="ev_code_BLUE">I don't know that Europe has more better horses - But they do have much less crap. We (as a country) produce thousands of OTTBs, PMU foals, backyard "what the heck" horses and about 75 thousand registered QHs, Paints, Arabs, etc. every year. Not that there is anything wrong with these horses, it's just that they are not bred specifically for hunters, dressage, jumpers or eventing. That is a lot of horseflesh to weed through. </span>
Anyway, I like the discussion going on. I think some people are on the right track here! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif We are working on it! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One thing Europe is doing is developing young horse specialists and is placing a premium on classes for young horses (where those specialists and shine). The USDF is now starting to promote the suitability and Materiale classes, which are especially for young developing horses. The USEA has done a test run this year of the young event horse series. More and more Prix Caprilli (dressage w/jumps) classes are starting to spring up in various venues.

Classes which are specific to the appropriate training levels for young developing horses would seem a logical place to start. These should be fewer in number, as opposed to a full first year green or pre-green schedule. It would also keep costs down and keep trainers of young horses from having to live on the road to be noticed.

SCFarm

[lauriep]

But let's not lose sight of the little guy for the horses that don't fit the mold, either. Perfectly nice horses withoutthat elusive quality. And all breeders and all trainers of young horses can't all be selling only to the upper echelon of the sport. There is a huge market, if costs can be kept down, for the $20,000 - $35,000 (and perhaps less, if you start out with a real bargain), mostly locally to you, that NEEDS these horses the most! The breeders above who said they have a lot of horses out there not reaching their potential...who sets that potential? Maybe their potential IS to be a nice childrens/junior/amateur horse. But these buyers still need a nicely started animal to continue with. And these local trainers are MUCH more likely to take you at your word and come see what you have on the farm then the BNTs are. IF you have something they can use.

[van]

sorry, all. when i answered MsHunters question, I really only gave the price range I thought was fair for that elusive next household Hunter name. There are too many factors when pricing anything less to put on one page. All I was able to do was to come up with a range on the perfect specimen as I figured everone could conjure up an accurate idea of this horse. I can tell you that we have sold quite a few 4 year old homebreds that were jumping around courses with flying changes at home, and had some show exposure this year for our clients. They ranged from $10k to $35k and were all very useful horses that varied in degrees of fancy.

Vanessa Brown
www.derbyhillfarm.com (http://www.derbyhillfarm.com)

[MsHunter]

Remember when you find that 4 yr old you have to pray to god it is still sound and you don't have to "retrain" it also. People don't realize the fine line between what trainers want and what you "the breeder" has developed during the process of making it to the 4 year old stage, both physically and mentally. We have to strive to also produce a horse that one can "get to the ring" as the top busy trainers just don't have "all the time" to take one on that needs "alot of prep" either. So I think rideability has to enter into that top dollar equation also. We don't want a hunter that has to be ridden like a dressage horse (just for example).

[lauriep]

And so, the circle continues, as breeders need to educate themselves as to what is winning, while still breeding an overall nice horse, so that the babies can be marketed competently and feelings aren't hurt when one is told that a baby isn't going to cut it.

Damn, this is a great discussion, even though we have strayed from the OP's original question...

Hey, Vanessa!! Happy Turkey Day, and love to Buddy!

[van]

thanks laurie.p! turkey was GOOD!!! ate too much, though. Buddy is on an airplane coming back from a clinic in Boston, but I will give him your love when he gets home!

[CBoylen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
And so, the circle continues, as breeders need to educate themselves as to what is winning, while still breeding an overall nice horse, so that the babies can be marketed competently and feelings aren't hurt when one is told that a baby isn't going to cut it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, absolutely. That to me is really important. I really dislike having "hunter prospects" marketed to me by someone who has never been to even see a high level hunter show. Particularly when they then try to "explain" to me why their horse is so suitable for the hunter ring. If breeders are taking their horses to be seen by professionals of a discipline other than one in which they have extensive experience they need to stop and consider the fact that that professional likely has a better understanding of the discipline than they do, and try to use that knowledge to their advantage.

[KWF]

Great ideas everyone...please read the new thread I just started which might help us to come up with some ideas/solutions for this breeding/selling youngster problem in the US.

[pwynnnorman]

Ok, I tried really, really hard to read all the pages before posting, but I ran out of patience on page four, so, sorry, if I'm repeated.

By page four, however, some folks did seem to be implying what I'd like to come out and state (Flame suit? No, don't believe in them.):

Too many American breeders have VERY BAD ATTITUDES. Too many can only see things from THEIR perspectives and spend no time whatsoever finding out what and how the other side thinks. Too many breeders "know what they know and know that's all they need to know." Too many simply do little to become better JUDGES of horseflesh. Too many think that if some inspector says its "premium" it must be good (whatever THAT means!). Too many RELY on inspections instead of what SHOULD be their knowledge of the industry they are breeding for.

Heck, too many breeders don't go to waaaaaaaaay enough shows to know what they heck it is they are breeding for.

Too many breeders don't even RIDE! Or only ride at such a low level that they wouldn't know talent if they sat on it.

I'm not saying ALL breeders are this way, but so many ARE that trainers think we're all idiots who simply cannot be trusted to describe what they have accurately, much less PRICE it accordingly!

Sorry, but it ticks me off because I'm not that kind of breeder, but I get treated that way all the time. When I'm feeling less kind, I blame the trainers for it, but in reality, it's OUR problem, not theirs at all.

Solution? Send your babies to trainers and GO WATCH THEM being made up and, even more importantly, get them into the ring and then WATCH them and their competitors go. Or if you can't afford to send them off, do it yourself or hire a kid to do it under your hopefully increasingly knowledgeable supervision.

I really wonder sometimes if inspections are a bad thing simply because they seem to encourage breeders to take little responsibility for developing their own judgement. I mean, how can you possibly price a baby if you don't understand the competition it is headed into and what it takes to succeed there? (And I don't just mean a pretty jump or pretty movement or pretty looks. You have to talk the talk, IMO!) With other products, there's always someone who knows the product's market inside and out...but not horses, for some odd reason.

(Panting.) Rant over.

[LLDM]

Uum, Pwynn - Luv ya, but chill babe! What does it help when breeders trash breeders and trainers bash trainers? You shoulda kept reading, 'cause we been over this already. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

You even missed my glowing post about pony breeders, didn't cha? Don't make me take it back. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Now back to our regularly scheduled productive thread. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

SCFarm

[pwynnnorman]

YOu're so right, LLDM! Like I said, I just couldn't keep reading--I got impatient.

But I have now and I say again, y'all are so right!

[Westfalen-Pferde]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NumberTenOx:
I'm glad that someone is interested in pedigrees; I'm sorry but I'm not. Can the horse jump? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well breaders work hard to get good prospect horses that has the conformation, the rideability and the potential and the work ethic to get a great HUNTER/JUMPER and that is the product you will be later happy to ride.

Good parents that fit together raises the chance to get a great SPORTHORSE very much!!!! That's what we breeders are doing - of couse there will never be a security to raise a Chamion but the chanches are much better than doing just a mare together with a stallion ... and working on breeding is a long but worthful project to get some great generations of horses that fit to the SPORT you want to do and those horses do their job maybe easier and better than horses that are bred "without care". SORRY - I do not want to attack any breeder - I just would like to underline how import and and helpfull successfull breeding and working on pedigrees (and character) can be - that all need to fit together to get a product that is just fun to ride!

[sidepasser]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

The link that is missing here is the trainers who are good with young horses. This has been discussed so many times on the breeder forums. In Europe, the youngsters are brought up through a good program with qualified trainers. Here, not many good trainers want to deal with young horses. So, young horses sit in the fields at breeding farms and don't get properly started. Then, they're sold cheap to people who don't know what they have and never realize their full potential. In Europe that is much less likely to happen. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi,

I must say I agree with you in that it is hard to find a well mannered, well trained youngster without driving/flying all over the country to see them. I raise one baby a year - I know that is not much to most breeders- but given my time constraints that is as much as I want to do each year. Do I have the "best pedigree out there" - no. Do I have a baby that is well mannered, trained properly for it's age, yes. It takes time and patience to start a weanling correctly and teach it the basics. Wash, groom, lead out, trot nicely, and just do the basics like pick up it's hooves for the farrier, stand for the vet, learn to tie. When I look for a baby, it would be nice to be able to travel to see alot of babies out of different mares/stallions in one area. That just isn't easy in the States as there is are no centralized breeding studs. So a buyer invests hundreds of dollars looking, responding to ads, calling, and hopefully finds one with potential that hasn't been left in the back field with little or no handling. Good training of youngsters is alot different than training a horse that has already been started. I think it is comparable to teaching a middle school student versus a preschooler. There are breeders who do handle their horses a lot, take them out, get them used to different things, teach them manners - but you have to weed through a lot that aren't to find the ones that are. Putting 10,000 in a weanling is a big gamble, especially when you can buy a three to four year old in the same price range or maybe a little higher (in this market today).

I had a fellow call me about my weanling last night and as I started to go into the pedigree, he said right off - I'm not riding papers, does the horse move correctly for it's age. Out of the many calls and emails, not ONE has asked about her pedigree. All focus on movement first, disposition second, and training third.

So if that is the way buyers think - all we can do is point out that pedigree can give an "indicator" that the baby is bred to do what the buyer wants. Seems that most buyers don't really care what the pedigree is as long as the horse is a certain "type". Paperwork seems to come second and in the buyer's market right now, there are so many people "dumping" babies to make room for next year's foals, that pricing has come way down. I am fortunate that if my weanling doesn't sell, I can keep her for two to three years and start her myself and then turn her over to a professional for showing. Many breeders can't do that, so the price continues to drop as buyer's have a lot to choose from. Unfortunately most want a started horse, not a weanling or yearling.

Sidepasser

[Youngjumpers.com]

A pedigree is nothing more than a 'recipe' of the genetics that created the individual. Since we can't see or know which genes were actually inherited from the parents, the pedigree is little more than an indication of what the individual 'should' be. If you consistently used top producers in your breeding program you are loading the genetic dice, and can hope that you produce the product you intended, but final judgement must be passed on the individual-- not the pedigree.

[stillpointfarm]

Have been following this thread with great interest....there have been so many differing comments yet all so important in considering the big picture......"PERFORMANCE"
You can't "Ride a Pedigree"....there are no guarentees in gentics, sometimes it can be a crap shot( you all remember that movie "TWINS" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif) ....however, we hope that in evaluating the pedigrees when considering dam and sire combinations and their performance we have a better chance of producing a better foal, but to me the proof will always be at the performance level. I think that we have learned so much from the Throughbred Racing Industry and German Breeding to know this is true. Look at how many potential racehorses are bred every year and how many actually deliver the promise, look at Keenelands Novemeber Catalouges yearly, 5,000 horses are up for auction four times a year .
In Germany how many stallions are licensed yearly and the ones that are Champion of their testing get up to and over 800 top mares each year and if you add up all of the well bred pedigree to pedigree breedings there should be a glut of "increidble" horses every year if the formular worked but there are many that we don't see that go to Frances' table.
I don't know the answer, I know that I would rather sell an offspring of mine that has training that I have taken to shows because I know that it has a good solid begining to hopefully ensure them a better future in their life and less worries for me, just have to consider the out of pocket costs in training gets passed along in the asking price of the future riding prospect as oppossed to the lower cost of an unbroke prospect.
How do connections get made ?? Go to shows, its easy to meet the pros they are always at the rings, they are approachable, talk to them get them interested in your program and follow up.
Carolyn http://www.stillpointfarm.net

[pwynnnorman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> over 800 top mares each year and if you add up all of the well bred pedigree to pedigree breedings there should be a glut of "increidble" horses every year <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great point.

And I think you bring up something else very important what you ask, "How do connections get made?" This is where too many of us just make too little effort (in time and in money--which some of us can't help).

I realize it is TOUGH as heck to take a chance on an animal you've invested a lot of time, money and dreams in, but there ARE a lot of hungry young trainers out there who would take on babies for only the cost to board them. But isn't it a fact that most of us aren't willing to trust such individuals with our "babies"? Isn't that part of the problem?

Things CAN go wrong, but you know what I've done? I start off by sending something I can afford to "lose" (that is, I won't mind terribly if it comes back blemished or a mental-case...basically something I would cull anyway) when I'm thinking of using some unknown or young, hungry type.

But you have to start somewhere. You don't develop relationships if you can't find a way to trust the people you want to relate with. Just look at the "horseless rider/riderless horse" thread to see how many riders there are out there who would like to work out something. The riders/trainers ARE there, but we just can't seem to get ourselves into the mental place that would allow us to work out mutually beneficial arrangements with them. We can't seem to compromise.

[lauriep]

The one problem, pwynn, is that starting/training babies takes a different set of skills (but not exclusive skills) than taking over started 4 year olds, or maintaining an older horse, or even undoing problems. And, I doubt that many young riders are exposed to young horses much in their short careers.

Now, if they have a good horseman/groundman who HAS got experience with young horses, then you are good to go. But just sending young horses to young trainers with nothing in their resumes that includes young horses, isn't a good idea, IMO.

And, unfortunately, too many are obsessed with going to the shows and not content to stay on the farm.

[buschkn]

I TOTALLY AGREE!
I am a young ammy who has brought along 4 horses successfully, maximizing their potential and finding them great homes, AND made money in the process. I have experience with young horses, love working with them, and love trying to find the right rider match to sell them on to. Even now, while I have almost NO free time from my "real" job to compete, I have taken my newest prospect (keeping this one!) from GREENBEAN 4yo, barely w/t/c/x-rail not much steering/brakes to a nice to ride, fun, sensible boy with great ground manners, solid w/t/c, courses to 3'6" and single fences to 4'6", working on changes, know lateral movements, etc. BUT he is my horse so I can take my time and not rush him. Professionals often feel rushed to "accompish something". I would LOVE to have another horse to play with but don't have the money. I would kill to find someone with a nice horse who needs starting or bringing along, who would just pay board/expenses/any shows, and give me a little something for my help when the horse sells. Anyone I know would do it, but they don't have the horses or the money. And nobody I don't know would be willing to "take that risk" on an unknown entity. So when my job gets better in a couple years, I will just buy/train/sell for myself. If I continue to do well at it, maybe some people will send me horses, but right now, I highly doubt it! Some of us do exist, but my last name ain't Kappler! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Giddy-up]

To answer the orginal question the OP stated--it depends on the person. Some people find pedigrees & breeding fascinating whereas other people just want to see the final product in front of them & don't care how it came to be or got there.

I am a working mid-20's single person. I have 2 horses now. When I bought the 1st horse, it was a 6 year old OTTB out in a field found via a newspaper ad. I liked his look, liked how he felt under saddle & the price was right. After he was bought, we looked into his breeding & learned more about it, but that was not a deciding factor. 2nd horse--whole different story. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif I wanted something young to bring along & was specificly looking at Alla' Czar offspring. I took my time, looked at websites/pictures, inquired, followed show records. I would say it took me about a year before I purchased my yearling which I know is a huge gamble. Will he turn out as I want? Hope so. Could he be a big bust? Maybe he won't work out for what I want, but he is still a nice well bred horse that can be useful for another discipline so I took the risk.

So before making it a too generalized assumption that either the whole industry cares or not, there are some of us that do know our horses breeding to some extent (am I an expert? No, but I can tell you siblings & basics). Honestly I would love to know the mom/dad of horses, especially in the HB ring. I don't think you should announce ahead of time (agree with the politics statement posted earlier), but when the winners are announced, I would like to know the stallion & mare. I am getting pretty bold I guess--if I see a horse I like or admire, I ask the owners or trainers about breeding. I don't always get an answer ("the papers got lost" is a popular response), but I try. And I also agree the horse show isn't going to do anything to promote breeding so host a party or something to attract people & have your own seminar or Q&A session at the showgrounds.

I know this has sort of veered off topic, but I thought I would offer my response. I too agree that there is a gap in the process--horses don't go from weanlings to jumping around the show ring without folks in between & that is what is missing. Unfortunately there is no clear cut answer it seems.

[lauriep]

As far as announcing the breeding of the HB winners, they are usually shunted off to some side ring and are lucky to even HAVE an announcer, much less one with the correct information and the knowledge to include it in the results!

[Giddy-up]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
As far as announcing the breeding of the HB winners, they are usually shunted off to some side ring and are lucky to even HAVE an announcer, much less one with the correct information and the knowledge to include it in the results! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Totally agreed... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif. Have experienced that. Which is why I have adopted the "if curious, just ask" approach.

[sidepasser]

Hi Fish -
Loved your story about measuring the horse and finding it was smaller than you were told...

I find that there is an incredible lack of children's ponies available and around here, if someone has one, there is a list of people who want it as soon as the child outgrows it. My daughter's two show ponies are leased out to families with young children and neither family is willing to part with either of them as they are lining up their next child to take over as soon as the first child outgrows them. Now that is a market I see a need for, a reasonably priced hunter pony that is safe, sane, and sensible. A pony in the 5,000 to 10,000 range that is safe and sensible seems to be in demand, of course, most parents would love one in the 1,000 to 5,000 range, but I don't see that happening, not with training and expenses the way they are.

How many of you market to the beginning child rider? Not necessarily the "A" circuit, but the pony clubber or the child who has a good instructor but isn't ready for the "big time" yet?

Sidepasser

[stillpointfarm]

The one thing that I've noticed at the H/J Shows is that there are no "Show Guides" providing information like the horses name, breeding, rider, and owner, for each class. Many times I see extraordinary horses and would like to know breeding info and rider/trainer info but don't want to leave the ring waiting for my horse to go and without a guide I am left clueless unless I go from stall to stall. Now I know at the Dressage Shows there are Show Guides with this information but the close deadlines are many weeks before a show, where as the H/J Shows you can post enter at the show grounds which is great depending on how well or how fresh your horse may be that day. But geesh, I think a Show Guide would be so helpful, horses entered in the show that are assigned a number, the breeding, owner and rider/trainer info could be provided. There are so many wonderfully talented horses I have seen at shows and am still wondering who, what, where and when. I also agree that the announcing at the shows are a bit faulty, just to follow placings in a class is hard, no less announcing who the owner,rider/trainer and breeding profile. Relatively easy things that could be worked on and provided at the shows.
Carolyn
http://www.stillpointfarm.net

[khobstetter]

Carolyn...

These are Hunter-Jumper Shows...not Breeding shows. Yes we have the Breed classes BUT promoting the horses for the Breeders/Breeding is not the purpose of those classes. These classes are to judge a certain "type". It is to have young hunter prospects judged on the line. This is all about hunter show horses...not breeding.

While I LOVE the breeding information, it would be time laborious to try to get all that to the announcer...his job is to announce the results of the class.....not to promote the breeding of any specific horse...even tho it is the winner.

It would be nice to find an alternative...AND WE ARE LOOKING...BUT I want to be very specific about what the classes are about...the are about judging hunters...not promoting breeds.

In order to change that and get them announced, IMHO, the hunter trainers and riders (NOT the breeders) have to band together and try to make a change.

The jumper riders all got behind the Young Jumper Championship program and they DO announce the breeding at most shows. It was because Linda Allen and a few others have worked HARD to promote the YJC and the breeding of those.

Maybe at some point in the future we can get the hunter riders to really stand behind the Breeding classes and ask for announcements...not behind a breed BUT behind the classes and how important breeding information is.

[stillpointfarm]

Knobstetter......I'm not just saying the announcer at Breed Shows I was talking about H/J Shows.
I'm saying a "SHOW GUIDE"......
You say...."This is all about hunter show horses not breeding"

***Okay...well if you see a fabulous hunter doing great and you want to find out breed info for research because it could impact producing another hunter show horse type, why can't this information be supplied ??? It can't be supplied in the US but you say its always supplied in Germany and you admire them for that....why ????

you say...."his job is to announce the results of the class.....not to promote the breeding of any specfic horse"

****Sometimes the announcers job at the shows is a difficult job announcing results, most of the time its almost impossible to even follow your own class results, at least at the shows I've attended, but I think there is room for improvement. And personally I don't understand why you think that it would be "PROMOTING" the breeding of any horse as you seem to think its wonderful that the Germans are so fluent with pedigree information. I really wouldn't call announcing the breeding of horses at a show "promoting the breed of any specfic horse" I would call it "EDUCATION"
Its a long slow road but practice makes masters and the more we try to educate, the level of awarness becomes higher...its a win win situation. I just thought a Show Guide would be a useful and helpful tool, something that I have never gotten at a H/J Show and wanted one so many times.
Carolyn http://www.stillpointfarm.net

[lauriep]

Carolyn, you answered your own question about why there is no program at most h/j shows. The big shows, like Harrisburg, Washington, Toronto, Devon, that close early and don't allow post entries, do have lovely programs. But the average hunter show won't, sorry to say.

[khobstetter]

Carolyn...I know you are talking about H/J shows...SO WAS I.

Some of the quotes you posted above are not mine!! It appears to me that your entire post was aimed at me, and that's OK...The only quotes that are mine are the 2 small ones.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> This is all about hunter show horses not breeding"
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> ...."his job is to announce the results of the class.....not to promote the breeding of any specfic horse"
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just know that I agree with you on some of your points...

BUT I don't think you will be satisfied with a "Show Guide" as it would happen in our hunter world....we call those programs...and some shows do have them, alot of the ig ones. Even then they do not list breeding specifics.

I do agree there is room for improvement and I said that AND made suggestions!!..<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> In order to change that and get them announced, IMHO, the hunter trainers and riders (NOT the breeders) have to band together and try to make a change.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Maybe at some point in the future we can get the hunter riders to really stand behind the Breeding classes and ask for announcements. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am on the side of trying to promote the breeding BUT I also know my sport and it will take time AND a concerted effort!!!!

[stillpointfarm]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by khobstetter:
Carolyn...I know you are talking about H/J shows...SO WAS I.

Some of the quotes you posted above are not mine!! It appears to me that your entire post was aimed at me, and that's OK...

*****Sorry that you felt that I was singling you out but I was only responding to your comments and the comments with the **** were mine. I felt that your original response to my post was incorrect and I was trying to clarify.

Lauriep...I have seen the lovely programs of the BIGGER Shows and once again they are missing pedigree data. Since this was the OP question I still maintain why a simple idea like a Show Guide could not be implemented it's not reinventing the wheel.

[Kirsten]

To answer the original question, "yes!" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

My mother purchased her mare as a weanling, so bloodlines certainly came into play. The primary thing she was looking for was temperment. The mare (now 11) is in foal this year to Popeye K. We don't have our own place, and are not breeders. But you better believe we did a lot of reseach into finding an appropriate match for our girl.

As a competitor, I would be very interested to hear at least the breed, and preferably also the sire, of those who pin. At the hunter spectacular class in West Palm, I believe they announced what breed each of the ribbon winners were.

[buschkn]

I think the program idea would be nice, but also hard to implement due to post-entries. However, even if they don't list breed info, at least if you see a horse you like and jot down the number, you could find out who the rider/owner/trainer is and could go and ask where it came from, what the breeding (if known), and so on. I have evented for many years and was always seeing nice horses without a BNT to recognize. I would just look up the number and go find the owner to ask about the horse later if I was busy.

Alas, they also have the very early entry deadline, so this is possible. Not sure what the answer is. Maybe a "master list" of numbers and who they were handed out to? that would at least help you track the horse/people's names down! not sure, just know I am always wanting to know more about certain horses. It's tough in the HJ world.

And I do care about breeding, but that is an aside. I didn't before, but I now have a very well bred Zangersheide gelding who is exceptional at jumping- what he was bred to do. I am now MUCH more interested in how a horse is bred, esp. since I am "po" and have to buy young/green. BUT, as has been pointed out a million times already, bottom line is performance. Still plenty of well-bred duds cantering around.http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[lauriep]

Carolyn, I didn't say they had breeding listed. I just said that it is only at that big a show that there is a program. There has never been any reason to put breeding in and until, as Kathy has suggested, there is a substantial support for such a thing, it won't happen anytime soon. And for other shows, the post entry thing precludes it.

[LLDM]

lauriep, buschkn & Giddy-up - YES, YES, YES!!!!

Young horses require special skills and people who LOVE starting and bringing them along! This is true of any discipline. The question is HOW do we get those special people hooked up with the breeders to get these nice young horses going!

I love young horses, which is why I started breeding after a lifetime of riding. It took me years to find a trainer that would teach me to bring along youngsters from the all the pre-backing ground work up to their first shows. I started starting horses at the tender age of 40. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

WE need to fill the gap. But there is no organization for "young horse people". I know we are out here, but how do we find each other? If I could clone myself, then I would have enough time to get all my kids started AND out and showing (whilst running the barn 7x24). http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Then KH wouldn't have to look so hard for prospects "over there". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SCFarm

[Leena]

There is an old adage saying: Young horse-mature rider; old horse-young rider.

I think the main thing is character. When I was young, I never thought there could susch a difference in character, trainability in between a horse from good breeding and a horse from no where.

In fact I have learn this in the last 10 years.

Education of rider in regard to this is important. I don't think people are that aware if this.

[pwynnnorman]

I disagree, Lauriep. The young people I've encountered are actually MORE skilled in backing babies than anything else--in fact, I WAS one of those young people, twenty-some-odd years ago. I was practically "typecast" in the role in fact. There's a whole slew of less advantaged kids out there who don't get to go to the shows, but are THERE, in the background, doing the gruntwork. I grew up riding the babies, breaking for the track, hacking out the young fieldhunters, putting the flatwork on the show horses, etc., etc. Everything but take them in the ring--and as a result, I--like many you may not have encountered because of the particular track you happen to be on in the industry (not meant as a slight or anything--just acknowledging different experiences)--can do wonders in getting them going, but the finesse parts are beyond me (for example, you don't get to jump babies a lot, so while I've ridden more horses than I can remember, I have no eye for a distance and no skills at heights exceeding about 3'6").

Indeed, perhaps that's something breeders and others need to think about: other "worlds" if you will. I don't know if I'm misinterpreting Lauriep, but what she said makes me think that perhaps breeders (and others) are unaware of the number of young riders like the rider I was (and I was somewhat lucky, since there was enough demand for me to ride that I didn't have to do much in the way of grooming and other scutwork that might further hide one's skills from those who could use them).

ARE people who, say, show the AAAs unaware of the little people in the background who are quite capable of breaking babies and beyond? I can identify a slew of individuals, in several states, whom I've met who would fall under that category--and they'd treat your horses like angels: they're knowledgeable, they're skilled, they're compassionate...granted, their facilities might not be all spruced up--but a lot of them would travel for the opportunity to develop a quality horse.

But "you guys" have to trust them and be willing to see that they ARE there first. Am I under the wrong impression here?

[lisa]

I'm one of those who is interested in bloodlines. When I was shopping for a greenie (I'm po', too http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif), I wanted one that at least had genes in his favor. In addition, I'm glad I had siblings to compare to, so I knew *in general* what to expect.

Regarding bloodlines of those showing, the USEF website lists the sire/dam.

[LLDM]

pwynn- For the most part I agree with Leena. BUT - there are some wonderful exceptions. I think you may have better luck finding them than I do. If you want to share your secrets for finding those naturally talented young riders, PLEASE, let me know.

SCFarm