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View Full Version : Eventing Nation Responds....What do you think?



Xctrygirl
Aug. 8, 2011, 02:52 PM
In the spirit of fairness, non-snarkiness and an overall need to allow you all to see this new development free from the 11 page wonder thread, please allow me the chance to highlight that Eventing Nation has responded to the Infringement issues raised by me.

Here is the link: http://eventingnation.com/home/2011/08/photographer-love-and-a-new-en-series.html

I do believe it's a nice thing they're willing to do for Eventing Photographers. In my haste I honestly missed the "one time use" verbage. With that in place I believe it's a nice olive branch.

~Emily

mustangsal85
Aug. 8, 2011, 02:56 PM
I think it's big of them to respond and try to reach an amicable resolution. I am no expert on the subject at hand so I'll just say that I am happy that they seem to be doing better with crediting the photogs whose photos they are using. I don't think, in the great scope of internet media, there is a truly efficient way of policing the internet. If there was, blogs like Tumblr would be illegal and there wouldn't get any photos anywhere. I'm not defending hotlinking or taking photos by right clicking but I do think EN is making an effort to at least police themselves and establish a working relationship with photographers, which is more than you can say for a lot of others.

Xctrygirl
Aug. 8, 2011, 02:59 PM
MustangSal

I completely agree. The effort is appreciated from me.
~Emily

PonyGal08
Aug. 8, 2011, 03:01 PM
"2) Send either a .jpeg or a link to several of your photos that you would like to be featured and include a description of the photos.* To make sure that the photos are protected, they can be watermarked as much as you like and we will only publish them once and only in the post promoting your business."

I see this as EN's way to promote photographers and their businesses, not as a way to gain a bigger photo library. I don't have an issue with it.

53
Aug. 8, 2011, 03:02 PM
I don't follow your logic.

How does the EN series you linked set up for a potentially worse problem? (by which I think you mean the problem of photographers not getting paid for use of their photos).

Edited to add: I interpret the EN series the same way PonyGal08 does, promotion of equine photographers and their business.

SevenDogs
Aug. 8, 2011, 03:03 PM
I think that EN has admitted a mistake, has settled the issue with the photographer in question (per her post on the other thread stating it was resolved BEFORE XCGirl started her thread), and now has gone even farther by offering free promotional opportunities to photographers to promote their business on the website and/or have links added to shows where they will be shooting and selling photos.

If photographers want to take advantage of free PR and advertising, they can choose a photo, write a promotion and send it in. They don't have to do so and since they control the content of the photo, they don't have to choose a photo that supports EN, in any way. What exactly is your problem?

I don't know you and I don't know John. What I do know, is that you seem to be on some sort of personal vendetta.

evntr5218
Aug. 8, 2011, 03:04 PM
i cant believe that there is a second thread about this!!!!!!!!!!!

SevenDogs
Aug. 8, 2011, 03:06 PM
MustangSal

The effort is appreciated even if I don't quite get what they're offering now.

~Emily

REALLY?!?! ... because that certainly is not coming across in any way.

horseworld
Aug. 8, 2011, 03:07 PM
THIS^^^^

Xctrygirl
Aug. 8, 2011, 03:08 PM
Re-reading it again... OK just saw the one time submission.

Then yes it's a nice thing that they're doing for Eventing photographers.

~Emily

evntr5218
Aug. 8, 2011, 03:09 PM
Is there anything that he could do that would make you happy at this point? If your post was in the "spirit of non-snarkiness", you have issues. I crown you the Queen Snark. You made your point on the previous 11 page thread, why create another negative thread about the same issue when they have made a genuine effort to resolve it and go beyond what they had to do?

Go Eventing.

ditto

SevenDogs
Aug. 8, 2011, 03:10 PM
Re-reading it again...


On the surface it looks good.

~Emily

Again, not what is even REMOTELY coming across in your posts.

westcoasteventer
Aug. 8, 2011, 03:12 PM
Is there anything that he could do that would make you happy at this point? If your post was in the "spirit of non-snarkiness", you have issues. I crown you the Queen Snark. You made your point on the previous 11 page thread, why create another negative thread about the same issue when they have made a genuine effort to resolve it and go beyond what they had to do?

Amen. Emily is like a dog with a bone, and she just won't let go.

Duckz
Aug. 8, 2011, 03:12 PM
I see this as EN saying "our bad, we'll do better in the future." The new series they're offering is a chance for the pros to promote their business via a profile in EN, a link to their site, and they can show some examples of their work in the profile. Not much different from their rider profile series. Good on EN.

subk
Aug. 8, 2011, 03:13 PM
What I am questioning is *IF* the submitted picture or pictures by a photographer to promote their business will then become property of EN and possibly be used in other parts of the site without that being the submitting photographers intention.

On the surface it looks good. It's after the intial submission that I wonder about.

~Emily
So now you are accusing John of lying?! He specifically states in the post that the submissions are for one time usage.

elctrnc
Aug. 8, 2011, 03:16 PM
Re-reading it again...

What I am questioning is *IF* the submitted picture or pictures by a photographer to promote their business will then become property of EN and possibly be used in other parts of the site without that being the submitting photographers intention.

On the surface it looks good. It's after the intial submission that I wonder about.

~Emily

If you, as a photographer, don't like what's under the "surface," then don't submit a photo. Are you a photographer? If not, then why you are still posting about this?

Beam Me Up
Aug. 8, 2011, 03:17 PM
Re-reading it again...

What I am questioning is *IF* the submitted picture or pictures by a photographer to promote their business will then become property of EN and possibly be used in other parts of the site without that being the submitting photographers intention.

On the surface it looks good. It's after the intial submission that I wonder about.

~Emily

EN says explicitly that it will not re-use the photos outside of this:

"To make sure that the photos are protected, they can be watermarked as much as you like and we will only publish them once and only in the post promoting your business."

If a photographer does not trust this statement, they are free to not take part in the exercise, but I don't think it is intended to be a photo-stealing venture. I think they are honestly trying to give back by allowing event photographers free advertising. Sort of like the rider profiles, but for businesses.

I'm not an expert on the business, but it seems that a lot of photographers publish promotional photos in print, or portfolios on their websites as a means of advertising their skill, as opposed to selling those particular images, so the idea that they might want to do that as part of a business profile on EN doesn't sound crazy.

I don't know, I guess we will see how many photographers take him up on it.

Alagirl
Aug. 8, 2011, 03:21 PM
Well, at least it's out thee in black and white then.

If you join a contest of this sort, it pays to read the small print.
I don't see professionals submitting anything, but hey.

but yeah, not sure how the 'becomes property of' byline works with photos etc...

Good grief, people, why the nasty?
I thought Eventers were the sane horse folks.....

Duckz
Aug. 8, 2011, 03:23 PM
It doesn't appear to be a contest. I don't see this as any different from the rider profiles or new to eventing profiles. They're just offering to promote business for pro photographers. Can't we just take this at face value and back off? Sheesh.

JP60
Aug. 8, 2011, 03:24 PM
Emily,

I am starting to get a picture of a personality that either has a big personal axe to grind, has closet feelings for John and was left unrequited, or you enjoy trolling this and other forums for attention.

Okay, I'll bite this time (though I sloughed through all the other 11 pages and refrained from comment).

Unless you wanted to use the words "Free Advertising", I think the intent was clear.

"To make sure that the photos are protected, they can be watermarked as much as you like and we will only publish them once and only in the post promoting your business.".

It seemed clear to me. He offers people who make money from taking pictures at eventing shows the opportunity to promote their business through the use of words and pictures; pictures selected by the photographer. On top of that, he offers to link the photographer with the show so it is clear to interested parties who was taking pictures (even more free advertising).

For Pete's sake, stop already. Even more so, he not only apologizes, he accepts responsibility and sets up processes to try and police his site. I hope your not looking for blood sacrifice or the burning of oats under full moon for pure absolution. How about you take a deep breath and accept an apology, forgive a mistake, and move on to the next troll topic.

LisaB
Aug. 8, 2011, 03:32 PM
Is there anything that he could do that would make you happy at this point? If your post was in the "spirit of non-snarkiness", you have issues. I crown you the Queen Snark. You made your point on the previous 11 page thread, why create another negative thread about the same issue when they have made a genuine effort to resolve it and go beyond what they had to do?

Go Eventing.
Agreed
Cripes, Emily! Give it a rest! I'm the one who's supposed to be a hormonal mess and bored out of her mind since I'm due in 1 week and want this kid out NOW! And I think you're being really unreasonable.
It's a great website with a huge growth factor. Of course there's going to be bumps in the road. But to come onto another website and bash the hell out of them and their hard work is just really clASSy.

DiablosHalo
Aug. 8, 2011, 03:33 PM
Emily,

I am starting to get a picture of a personality that either has a big personal axe to grind, has closet feelings for John and was left unrequited, or you enjoy trolling this and other forums for attention.

..., and move on to the next troll topic.

:yes::yes::yes:

DiablosHalo
Aug. 8, 2011, 03:34 PM
In response to the op's original question... "What do you think"?

I think you should stop hitting the new thread button.

LexInVA
Aug. 8, 2011, 03:35 PM
Enough is enough. (http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs31/f/2008/209/3/d/Picard_shenanigans_by_bthauronite.jpg)

Duckz
Aug. 8, 2011, 03:37 PM
Enough is enough. (http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs31/f/2008/209/3/d/Picard_shenanigans_by_bthauronite.jpg)

:lol:

evntr5218
Aug. 8, 2011, 03:38 PM
:lol::lol:
Enough is enough. (http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs31/f/2008/209/3/d/Picard_shenanigans_by_bthauronite.jpg)

babecakes
Aug. 8, 2011, 03:43 PM
In the spirit of fairness, non-snarkiness and an overall need to allow you all to see this new development free from the 11 page wonder thread, please allow me the chance to highlight that Eventing Nation has responded to the Infringement issues raised by me.

Here is the link: http://eventingnation.com/home/2011/08/photographer-love-and-a-new-en-series.html



Here's what the objection to this is - You could have stopped here. And should have. The question that you put in your title is asking what others think. Don't ask what someone thinks and then talk all over on top of them and put your opinion out there first to start the fire. Maybe let someone else talk and you listen.

Candle
Aug. 8, 2011, 03:49 PM
I think that this is a classy move by John, LOVE his viewpoint on this, and love it even more that he's managed to refrain from sinking to your level in any of his replies. That's impressive, and I'll be over there on EN even more in the future. You, on the other hand, appear to be unable to comprehend that we understand both yours and John's (EN's) viewpoints on this, and it's really discouraging to watch how you're handling this. I'll agree that it's likely a personal axe to grind on your part, and I hope you step back and leave John alone in the future. It's also got to be embarrassing for AKDragoo to be dragged into this in this manner. Quit using the "New Thread" button.

Xctrygirl
Aug. 8, 2011, 03:55 PM
I have corrected my first post about EN's response.

I missed "one time use" in the first and second read throughs. It is there and as such it's my official position that I think this is a nice thing they're doing.

I read to fast and judged too quick. I am a big enough person to admit that. My apologies to all for the rush to judgement.

Carry on.

~Emily

wcporter
Aug. 8, 2011, 04:00 PM
good.

Tamara in TN
Aug. 8, 2011, 04:02 PM
Enough is enough. (http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs31/f/2008/209/3/d/Picard_shenanigans_by_bthauronite.jpg)

well played!

Tamara

BaroquePony
Aug. 8, 2011, 04:21 PM
copyright violation on using Captain Jean-Luc Picard :lol::lol::lol:

gold2012
Aug. 8, 2011, 05:27 PM
Good job EN!

lsa
Aug. 8, 2011, 06:17 PM
EN +1

gchildean
Aug. 8, 2011, 06:28 PM
Eventing Nation has responded to the Infringement issues raised by me
~Emily

You sure are taking a lot of credit for something that was handled before you even raised the issue.

flutie1
Aug. 8, 2011, 07:54 PM
OK guys. Emily has had her moment in the sun. John has stepped up to the plate with a reasonable and generous offer. I for one am over and out. What's been said s enough already!
Ciao all.

GingerJumper
Aug. 9, 2011, 09:08 AM
If this turns into another 11 page thread that is essentially rehashing an already dealt-with topic that we really have little to no say in, I. am. going. to. slap. someone.

...or perhaps start awarding the drama llama trophy. :lol:

Lori B
Aug. 9, 2011, 10:32 AM
I fail to see why piling on to the OP (who was in fact pointing out an activity that is ILLEGAL) is called for.

EN was being at best sloppy in its adherence to copyright law. When one's business benefits from a failure to observe the property rights of others, it shades into theft, and is not how one ought to do things.

OP was a little hasty, but her observations were largely accurate that EN has been insufficiently careful in this regard.

EN acknowledges the general error of their ways and tenders an olive branch.

So why is it that the thing most worthy of correction and comment here isn't lawbreaking and lapses in professionalism by a prominent web publication, it's the demeanor of the OP? Who the eff are you people, her parents?

I think that whether the self-appointed demeanor police like it or not, it seems pretty likely to me that the other thread is EXACTLY what prompted EN to make this thoughtful gesture towards photographers, one that if photographers participate, has the potential to benefit both them and EN.

GingerJumper
Aug. 9, 2011, 11:45 AM
I don't think the problem people have with this is that the OP brought up a relevant issue: I think it's the way in which she did it. Add to that the fact that she came on here again about the same issue, to all appearances looking to start another flame war, and I can see why people would get a little PO'd.

That said, kudos to her for saying that she read it wrong and that it is, in fact, a good solution and a nice gesture on the part of EN.

Lori B
Aug. 9, 2011, 11:49 AM
Ok, read carefully.

I get that they are choosing to pester the OP for failing to adhere to their chosen notions of behind the scenes clannish whatever.

The question remains:

WHY do a significant number of respondents on this and the other thread clearly care more (by virtue of the number of characters they are willing to type and the amount of snottiness expressed) about the demeanor of the OP than they care about copyright law? (talk about axes being ground, etc.)

That is what I'm asking. What I'm asking is, why is that so freaking important? Maybe.... maybe it's NOT.

CapturinYerRide
Aug. 9, 2011, 11:49 AM
Well, I for one both appreciate that the OP brought this up, but in the spirit of moving on, I'm trying to figure out how it all works. I have this teeny weeny little horse trial in Georgia coming up in September, and a rather busy season following that. It might just be a help......

LLDM
Aug. 9, 2011, 12:18 PM
Ok, read carefully.

I get that they are choosing to pester the OP for failing to adhere to their chosen notions of behind the scenes clannish whatever.

The question remains:

WHY do a significant number of respondents on this and the other thread clearly care more (by virtue of the number of characters they are willing to type and the amount of snottiness expressed) about the demeanor of the OP than they care about copyright law? (talk about axes being ground, etc.)

That is what I'm asking. What I'm asking is, why is that so freaking important? Maybe.... maybe it's NOT.

Maybe people here are just tired of the general atmosphere (in general - in this country) of beginning a "discussion" filled with ranting and raving and serious accusations, impinging someone's character and generally spewing self righteousness?

I mean really, would you rather I responded to you by calling you names or attacking your motives? Or would you appreciate a post that tries to make a point without all the drama?

EN has grown very quickly and is likely a victim of their own success. That doesn't make okay for them to use photos without permission. But it doesn't make them evil incarnate out to destroy the other professionals they work with at events either.

We really don't know the other side of this issue. I sure don't know how those photos came to be on EN's site. Maybe people sent them in thinking since they bought the photos they had the rights to use them in this way. In any case, I seriously doubt EN is the monster that the OP made them out to be. And since they have made a significant effort to rectify the situation, I think that assessment stands - not a monster, in my book anyway, but not perfect either.

Most people here just would like to get back to civil discourse rather than finger-pointing, blame gaming, one-upsmanship rhetoric and actually DO something productive to solve the problem. And when someone claims victory using the methods the OP did, then it just reinforces that poor behavior. It gets painfully tiresome.

Oh, and I am most certainly not of the clique. They get mad at me all the time. I question things a lot, but try to do so in a reasonable manner. People still get pissed off at me for my point of view, but at least they get mad at me for the that and not because I'm calling people names and accusing them of crimes.

SCFarm

llevent
Aug. 9, 2011, 12:23 PM
^^well said LLDM

What do I think?

A certain Buckcherry song title comes to mind....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GZuzlmpbOs

jk jk

but really, from day one the OPs attitude in these threads has been kind of uncallled for. hopefully from this she has learned that haste makes waste.

GingerJumper
Aug. 9, 2011, 12:39 PM
^^well said LLDM

What do I think?

A certain Buckcherry song title comes to mind....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GZuzlmpbOs

jk jk

but really, from day one the OPs attitude in these threads has been kind of uncallled for. hopefully from this she has learned that haste makes waste.

I'm not calling anyone a crazy b!tch but that was brilliantly done. :lol::lol::lol:

llevent
Aug. 9, 2011, 01:11 PM
I'm not calling anyone a crazy b!tch but that was brilliantly done. :lol::lol::lol:

:lol: haha thanks.. i wasn't either really, i just couldn't resist! besides, if people are going to write so much on this, we need some humor!

evntr5218
Aug. 9, 2011, 01:13 PM
i think regarding the OP she time and time again has dished it out but when it comes time to take it she doesnt. in other words she doesnt hesitate to give but when it comes to recieving she doesnt handle that near as well.

GingerJumper
Aug. 9, 2011, 01:14 PM
:lol: haha thanks.. i wasn't either really, i just couldn't resist! besides, if people are going to write so much on this, we need some humor!

Agreed. :lol:

Beam Me Up
Aug. 9, 2011, 01:28 PM
The question was what do we think of EN's response, not what do we think of the OP.

llevent
Aug. 9, 2011, 01:53 PM
The question was what do we think of EN's response, not what do we think of the OP.

lighten up! i think everyone has said their fair share about how the feel (both sides). This thread is turning into a joke anyway.

Jealoushe
Aug. 9, 2011, 02:10 PM
Ok, read carefully.

I get that they are choosing to pester the OP for failing to adhere to their chosen notions of behind the scenes clannish whatever.

The question remains:

WHY do a significant number of respondents on this and the other thread clearly care more (by virtue of the number of characters they are willing to type and the amount of snottiness expressed) about the demeanor of the OP than they care about copyright law? (talk about axes being ground, etc.)

That is what I'm asking. What I'm asking is, why is that so freaking important? Maybe.... maybe it's NOT.


My thoughts exactly....there are majorly starstruck EN readers out there.

Sandman
Aug. 9, 2011, 02:12 PM
The question was what do we think of EN's response, not what do we think of the OP.

I think it was admirable that John responded and seems to be offering reparations through this photographer feature.
I feel it was disingenuous, however, for that response to imply that this was a one-time mistake and the site is going to great lengths to fix this one-time oops. In fact, as John surely knows, it has happened quite a bit -- like the previous time the site used the very same Amy Dragoo photo.

http://eventingnation.com/home/2011/07/neville-bardos-and-leyland-are-making-comebacks-at-maryland-ht.html

No apology then, maybe because he wasn't called out? As was said on the other thread, it's about how many times you take photos knowing it is wrong, not how many times you get called out on it.
I would have been more impressed if he'd taken more ownership of what he knows has been a recurring or habitual mistake rather than playing it off as a one-time thing.
This situation might also have been an opportunity for EN to remind readers how important their free, reader-submitted photos are and to encourage continued submissions.

lsa
Aug. 9, 2011, 02:56 PM
The problem is that, as usual, the negative thread gets 24,000 views and this positive one gets 4,000. This board feels more and more like just a place for a few consistently negative posters to attack something anonymously and the rest of us to watch helplessly. What's the next troll thread going to be about?

EventingJ
Aug. 9, 2011, 05:59 PM
congrats! (http://unicornbooty.com/2011/08/so-youre-mad-about-something-on-the-internet-infographic/)

Duckz
Aug. 9, 2011, 06:19 PM
congrats! (http://unicornbooty.com/2011/08/so-youre-mad-about-something-on-the-internet-infographic/)

That's brilliant!

Gry2Yng
Aug. 9, 2011, 07:22 PM
Agree. Brilliant. gonna print me a copy.

kcrubin
Aug. 9, 2011, 10:02 PM
congrats! (http://unicornbooty.com/2011/08/so-youre-mad-about-something-on-the-internet-infographic/)

Classic!! Love it!

Alagirl
Aug. 9, 2011, 11:06 PM
The problem is that, as usual, the negative thread gets 24,000 views and this positive one gets 4,000. This board feels more and more like just a place for a few consistently negative posters to attack something anonymously and the rest of us to watch helplessly. What's the next troll thread going to be about?

erm, 'negative' thread was about something that is not legal....

This thread is plenty 'negative' with all the folks bashing the OP who has since edited her initial post and the title...

I find it good that the blog in question has stepped up to do something right. But it seems the operator was a wee bit cavalier about it initially.

Sooooo.....

llevent
Aug. 9, 2011, 11:50 PM
congrats! (http://unicornbooty.com/2011/08/so-youre-mad-about-something-on-the-internet-infographic/)

hahaha! this should be put at the front of EVERY new thread.

GingerJumper
Aug. 10, 2011, 01:13 PM
congrats! (http://unicornbooty.com/2011/08/so-youre-mad-about-something-on-the-internet-infographic/)

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

CiegoStar
Aug. 10, 2011, 01:16 PM
The problem is that, as usual, the negative thread gets 24,000 views and this positive one gets 4,000. This board feels more and more like just a place for a few consistently negative posters to attack something anonymously and the rest of us to watch helplessly. What's the next troll thread going to be about?

I think it's more that people are just tired of the topic. It's been hashed to death, and what's more, resolved. Moving on.

CapturinYerRide
Aug. 11, 2011, 03:50 PM
In the spirit of moving on, I turned my little answer sheet in..

Still not sure how much I will be visiting EN, though.. You all know by now that I love Eventing as much as a hockey player likes the smell of ice, but there is simply sooooooo much on EN, I think I'd have to give up a game or two of Freecell every day... :lol::lol:

mbm
Aug. 12, 2011, 09:40 PM
just wandered in to eventing forum and got caught up reading this and the other thread.

my questions is what does this ->

"Our policy on Eventing Nation is to never use photos by eventing photographers without their permission, and I simply screwed up."

mean ?

i suggest a better wording so that it doesn't sound like he will use non eventing photographers images .....

Ranger
Aug. 12, 2011, 10:41 PM
It seems intuitive that he means the photographers that attend events as professionals and offer their images for sale to the participants (consumers) as opposed to the participant / family member / friend who sends in a good or interesting shot that they took for their own pleasure.

You may feel that he did not paint a broad enough picture of any and all sources whereby he could find an image to use, but I think he was clearly reacting to and addressing the scanario brought to light herein (an event photographer) and so many other event photographers that have commented. I feel certain that it goes without saying that he intends this statement / policy to include all sources.....and that brevity just prevailed.