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View Full Version : Denny tackles the long/short format issue in Btw Rounds



flyingchange
Oct. 22, 2004, 07:03 AM
Really good (of course) commentary on this issue - good timing with respect to this week's discussion here on the board.

Here's a taste:

"If you current riders are happy with the short format, that’s your choice. But, if you prefer the old, longformat formula, are you going to let some little FEI gnomes, sitting in Lausanne, Switzerland, who’ve probably never jumped a cross-country fence in their lives determine your future?" http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Here's the link -

http://www.chronofhorse.com/Issues/102204/047.pdf

flyingchange
Oct. 22, 2004, 07:03 AM
Really good (of course) commentary on this issue - good timing with respect to this week's discussion here on the board.

Here's a taste:

"If you current riders are happy with the short format, that’s your choice. But, if you prefer the old, longformat formula, are you going to let some little FEI gnomes, sitting in Lausanne, Switzerland, who’ve probably never jumped a cross-country fence in their lives determine your future?" http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Here's the link -

http://www.chronofhorse.com/Issues/102204/047.pdf

bambam
Oct. 22, 2004, 07:19 AM
Hear, hear, Denny!

3dazey
Oct. 22, 2004, 07:20 AM
YOWZA! Go Denny!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

flyingchange, thanks so much for pointing this out...what a great article (as usual from Denny). I am SO motivated to do something, but WHAT???

justdream2ride
Oct. 22, 2004, 07:23 AM
WOW! That was a very moving and motivating article. My favorite part was.........

"Do you care, or don’t you care? Because if
you do care, you better speak up now or take
what you get."

Personally I think he pretty clearly stated that if we want to save the long format we can't just complain/talk about it we've got to DO something!!

So......what can we do to make sure we are heard?

baileygreyhorse
Oct. 22, 2004, 07:46 AM
Bravo Denny! I am totally sure I will NEVER ride at the level of a three day, even an Training 3 Day, but I believe 100% that it needs to stay.
So what can we do??? What can a lowly BN rider (who can't vote with her entries) do?

VetRep
Oct. 22, 2004, 07:46 AM
THANK YOU, Denny! This article just says it all. Again, the question is "what can we do"?

As I've posted here before, I am sick about the changes I'm witnessing. I am so grateful I had a shot at the upper levels--I was able to grow through the *** level with a horse I bought for very little money (via an ad in the back of The Chronicle http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif), competing for years on a shoestring budget. My horse was an old-school brave, willing, cross-country machine. Dressage was a challenge--he was an event horse through and through! My horse would have a much harder time today. Without A, B, and C to settle him I'm not sure we would have completed a ***. There is also NO WAY I'd be able to compete like that on a shoestring budget today. Neither can other aspiring, hard-working eventers with the way the sport is going.

It isn't progress...I find it all very sad.

flyingchange
Oct. 22, 2004, 07:53 AM
Here's an idea from another lowly lower level eventer wannabe -

Agree on a t-shirt logo and have them screened up. Distribute them as soon as possible. Sell them at the convention in SF and pick a day during the convention wear everyone wears them (everyone that supports keeping ALL phases of the long format). And also wear them to your Area meetings that are coming up.

Also start a letter writing campaign to USEA board of directors (does it have a bod? I'm ashamed to say I don't even know how it is structured).

tle
Oct. 22, 2004, 08:08 AM
WOW! Anyone else brought to the verge of tears by the end paragraph alone?? I certainly was.

I guarantee... this article will be seen by several hundred eventers by the end of the weekend. I'm headed down to KHP tomorrow morning to volunteer in teh vet box for teh CCI* and then to pick up some year end awards. Somewhere in the day, I plan on taking copies of this article and dropping them at every freakin' stall that looks like an eventer lives in it. The least I can do is spread the word.

Denny is right... we need to speak up because I certainly don't like where we're headed.

OK -- who is going to be at the Open Forum on Thursday at the National Convention? I just got an email notice that there will be a discussion on the long vs short format. Who can go and speak for those of us here who can't??

LLDM
Oct. 22, 2004, 08:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>One is too forgiving, but the other is too unforgiving. Can we find a format that rewards the great horses and riders without destroying the weaker ones? - from the Denny Emerson article <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

SCFarm

justdream2ride
Oct. 22, 2004, 08:20 AM
Ok here are some of the people that need to be written to. I'm sure I'm missing people and there are probably several that we don't need to write to - anyone care to narrow it down? Perhaps if each person writes a letter and just changes who it is addressed to and sends it to 1 person from each group - USEA, USEF, FEI?? I'm just trying to come up with ideas......


Mailing Address:
USEA, Inc.
525 Old Waterford Road, NW
Leesburg, VA 20176

Email Address:
info@useventing.com

USEA Departments and Staff

Jo Whitehouse - Executive Director
Jo@useventing.com

Judy Ottoviani - Director
Judy@useventing.com

USEF
David O'Connor doconnor@usef.org
James Wolf Director of Eventing and Games Preparation jwolf@usef.org

FEI

Ms Catrin NORINDER, Manager
c.norinder@horsesport.org

Ms Fabienne Diserens, Assistant
f.diserens@horsesport.org

Ms Diana DI CLEMENTE, Assistant
d.diclemente@horsesport.org

Mrs Nathalie DESSCAN, Assistant
n.desscan@horsesport.org


Also - would this be worth the time?

http://www.petitiononline.com/create_petition.html

Janet
Oct. 22, 2004, 08:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>OK -- who is going to be at the Open Forum on Thursday at the National Convention? I just got an email notice that there will be a discussion on the long vs short format. Who can go and speak for those of us here who can't?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I should be there- my flight arrives mid-day on Thursday.

tle
Oct. 22, 2004, 08:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by justdream2ride:
Also - would this be worth the time?

http://www.petitiononline.com/create_petition.html <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Working on that now. But have to run to a chiro appointment... will have it up and running after lunch. Worth the time? Certainly can't hurt.

justdream2ride
Oct. 22, 2004, 08:49 AM
THANKS tle!

3dazey
Oct. 22, 2004, 09:00 AM
GO JANET!!! Do you feel like being a "spokeswoman" for those of us who can't be there?

rebeginner
Oct. 22, 2004, 09:29 AM
If we have a spokesperson, be sure to include the views of us lowly lower-level-will-never-ride-a-3DE riders. Like Baileygreyhorse, I will likely never have the opportunity to ride phases A,B,C and D. However, I would like to ASPIRE to ride them. I DO NOT aspire to ride the short format. That's not the sport I signed up to dream about! Is there a place for our voice, too?

Spiritwind
Oct. 22, 2004, 09:49 AM
Denny, very well put!!!! Wooohoooo!!

I am a low level eventer who started in the early 90's and will never compete above training level.

I had the luck to be able to see a full three day event in progress at Ledyard. It was an awesome sight to see those "tough, fire breathing" T-breds performing at dressage, all phases of roads and tracks, and then the stadium jumping. It was something I will never forget and something extra special.

It would be a shame and very sad to have the essence and tradition of eventing "snuffed out".

tle
Oct. 22, 2004, 10:32 AM
Ok, before I do this I want to make sure my thoughts are reflected with everyone here. Once the petition starts, we can't change the statement. I was thinking of the following... does it sound ok?

We believe that the sport of Eventing needs to be preserved in the traditional format -- where Roads & Tracks and Steeplechase are part of the Cross Country Day of the sport (CCI-long format). We believe it is NOT to the benefit of the sport to change the format to the CCI-short format. We believe the governing body of the sport (the FEI) have the burden of proof to show that the popular rhetoric "it is better for the horses" is true and valid as a reason for the change to the CCI-short format. We, as participants at all levels and in all manners from volunteer to judge to rider to owner to sponsor, feel it is our right to demand such proof PRIOR to the governing body's making sweeping changes to our sport.

Lionheart
Oct. 22, 2004, 10:37 AM
Go get 'em Denny! I LOVE THAT MAN! Thank god he said it. If only there was a way we could hook up with him as our spokes person! Not that Janet wont do a fine job.

I do aspire to do a star'd event some day. I have a great up and coming horse that should be able to do it all (as long as my pocketbook can keep up). I have dreams and aspirations to get beyond the BN and Novice that i've been doing my whole eventing career with Lion. I dont want my dream to get changed by some "little FEI gnomes" sitting in Europe. If I chose to change my dream, fine, but someone cant change my dream for me!

lizathenag
Oct. 22, 2004, 10:40 AM
calling them "gnomes" won't help!

Lionheart
Oct. 22, 2004, 10:43 AM
Liza - sure it will help... it will help us feel better.

Cobee
Oct. 22, 2004, 11:02 AM
Wow great article, puts it all out there straight forward.
I think the language is just right, to anyone who see someone as 'medaling' with there stuff in ways they don't like... they are gnomes.
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif its not mean or disrespectful its perception

Cobee
Oct. 22, 2004, 11:06 AM
TLE very nicely said. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>We believe that the sport of Eventing needs to be preserved in the traditional format -- where Roads & Tracks and Steeplechase are part of the Cross Country Day of the sport (CCI-long format). We believe it is NOT to the benefit of the sport to change the format to the CCI-short format. We believe the governing body of the sport (the FEI) have the burden of proof to show that the popular rhetoric "it is better for the horses" is true and valid as a reason for the change to the CCI-short format. We, as participants at all levels and in all manners from volunteer to judge to rider to owner to sponsor, feel it is our right to demand such proof PRIOR to the governing body's making sweeping changes to our sport. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My other thought is, It might also be good to include that if FEI is set in changing the format they need to come up with something else, because the current "short format" isn't going to work. Following in Denny's thought below <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>One is too forgiving, but the other is too unforgiving. Can we find a format that rewards the great horses and riders without destroying the weaker ones? - from the Denny Emerson article <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

bambam
Oct. 22, 2004, 11:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tle:
_We believe that the sport of Eventing needs to be preserved in the traditional format -- where Roads & Tracks and Steeplechase are part of the Cross Country Day of the sport (CCI-long format). We believe it is NOT to the benefit of the sport to change the format to the CCI-short format. We believe the governing body of the sport (the FEI) have the burden of proof to show that the popular rhetoric "it is better for the horses" is true and valid as a reason for the change to the CCI-short format. We, as participants at all levels and in all manners from volunteer to judge to rider to owner to sponsor, feel it is our right to demand such proof PRIOR to the governing body's making sweeping changes to our sport. _ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I really like it. I think doing a petition is a great idea and kudos to you tle for going ahead and starting to do the legwork. My main thought was that I really like the first part but am not as sure about the part about the FEI and the burden of proof. I am not sure that is technically true and, even if it were, not everyone might agree with that. I tend to think that the petition might get more signtaures if it is very straighforward and maximizes the number of people who will sign it.
Maybe change the last 2 sentences to "We believe it is not in the best interest of the sport to change to the CCI short format without first determining whether it is in the best ineterests of the horse and whether the traditional role of Phases A,B, and C in physically and mentally preparing horses for Phase D can safely be removed from the CCI Phase D. We, as participants at all levels and in all manners from volunteer to judge to owner to sponsor, feel it is our right and in the best interests of the horse and the sport to have such proof PRIOR to the governing body's making sweeping changes to our sport."
or something like that- the "burden of proof" thing is just more a legal term of art and they can go back to the FEI rules and say- "actually they don't have the burden and they don't need any proof before making changes"-

Just my opinion- would it be worth it to add a statement about how this was done basically without communication or collaboration with the participants (both the FEI doing and the USEA and USEF capitulating to it). That might carry a bit of weight with USEA since hopefully many members will sign it (another point- I would indicate on the petition when you sign whether you are a USEA and USEF member, i.e. pay their salaries to some extent)
Just MHO- take it for what you will http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif and thanks for stepping up to the plate tle

flyingchange
Oct. 22, 2004, 11:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tle:
Ok, before I do this I want to make sure my thoughts are reflected with everyone here. Once the petition starts, we can't change the statement. I was thinking of the following... does it sound ok?

_We believe that the sport of Eventing needs to be preserved in the traditional format -- where Roads & Tracks and Steeplechase are part of the Cross Country Day of the sport (CCI-long format). We believe it is NOT to the benefit of the sport to change the format to the CCI-short format. We believe the governing body of the sport (the FEI) have the burden of proof to show that the popular rhetoric "it is better for the horses" is true and valid as a reason for the change to the CCI-short format. We, as participants at all levels and in all manners from volunteer to judge to rider to owner to sponsor, feel it is our right to demand such proof PRIOR to the governing body's making sweeping changes to our sport. _ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I like it - especially the last sentence which includes two powerful words/phrases "proof" and "sweeping changes."

Thanks for putting that together so quickly!

Janet
Oct. 22, 2004, 11:29 AM
I think you need the petition statement to specifically address the *** and ****.

As it is written at the moment, the "official" response would likely be "the long format is not under any threat. It will continue at the * and ** level. It is only the *** and **** level that is changing to the short format."

My second thought is that the petition needs to address things the USEA CONTROLS, rather than demanding that the FEI do something.

There ARE several things the USEA/USEF CAN do.

One is too change the job objective for the team coach so it addresses performance in the "long format". For instance, making "the number of US riders who finish in the top 10 at Rolex long format" one of the coach's evaluation criteria. The two people who were AT the riders briefing (Heather, and my sister) have stressed that THAT (job description) is the most compelling factor at the moment.

Another is to ensure that Foxhall only gets to retain its title of "National Championship of Eventing" if it remains a "long format" CCI.

A third would be to restructure the grading points so that a CCI long format is worth more points than a CCI short format.

And so on. Those are all things that the USEA/USEF CAN do. Demanding that the FEI "prove" something is not a concrete enough goal.

Cospi
Oct. 22, 2004, 11:31 AM
You can count on my signature! Where will you have this petition available?

tle
Oct. 22, 2004, 11:43 AM
Janet,

The way I worded the statement, I was thinking we should talk to the FEI -- open up the petition internationally. Maybe we need 2 petitions... one for the USEA/USEF folks with the points you mentioned (which I think are excellend btw) and one specifically for the FEI. ??? Or is this a case of talking to the national and getting them on our side to do the talking with the FEI for us? Would we be jumping the gun to have a petition directly for the FEI?

Janet
Oct. 22, 2004, 11:50 AM
PEOPLE are members of the USEA and USEF.

But the National Federations (e.g. USEF) are the members of the FEI. It is my impression that the FEI pays attention to what the NFs say. NOT to what individual people who represent only themselves say. But I could be wrong.

But I would still ask for something more concrete. Who is to say what does, or doesn't constitute "proof"?

BarbB
Oct. 22, 2004, 11:54 AM
Janet, I think you are right.
We need to address our national organization(s).
That organization is a member of FEI.
Individuals are not members of FEI.

I'm all for this.....where do I sign?

Janet
Oct. 22, 2004, 11:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> One is too forgiving, but the other is too unforgiving. Can we find a format that rewards the great horses and riders without destroying the weaker ones? - from the Denny Emerson article <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> People are taking this quote out of context. He was referring specifically to the Athens Olympics vs 2004 Burghley.

I doubt many would say that the 2004 short format Rolex ****was "too forgiving".

tle
Oct. 22, 2004, 12:21 PM
Janet... very good point.

Am I getting closer? Version #2 --

We believe that the sport of Eventing needs to be preserved in the traditional format at the highest levels of the sport (Preliminary/* through Advanced/****) -- where Roads & Tracks and Steeplechase are part of the Cross Country Day of the sport (CCI-long format).

We believe it is not in the best interest of the sport to change to the CCI short format without first determining whether it is in the best interests of the horse and whether the traditional role of Phases A,B, and C in physically and mentally preparing horses for Phase D can safely be removed from the CCI Phase D. We therefore request an official investigation into the affects of the change in format on the horse with scientifically collected and analyzed data, concluding with the publication of the results of the investigation for the membership PRIOR to sweeping changes being made to the sport.

We believe the traditional CCI format is the apex of our sport and should be emphasized as such. As a result, we request the job description and performance evaluation of the US Chef d'quip be modified to reward team victories/placings at traditional CCI format events OVER victories/placings at short-format CCI events. We also request a change in the grading and award point systems. Points awarded at traditional CCI format events should count more than any short-format CCI events. We also request a directive be given to Foxhall CCI that ensures they are only able to retain the title of "National Championship of Eventing" if they run the traditional CCI format. Similar directive should also be given to Fair Hill International for them to retain the title of "USET Foundation Fall Championship."

We, as participants at all levels and in all manners from volunteer to rider to judge to owner to sponsor, feel the changes made to the sport to date are not in the best interest of the sport and were taken without the concensus and without communication with the membership at large. We feel the traditional format CCI needs to be retained for the good of the sport and the participants within the sport.

KentuckyCourage
Oct. 22, 2004, 12:24 PM
Can someone explain to me why the long format is safe at the * and ** levels? Am I to understand that these are and end in themselves and not a prep for a "big-time" horse? My point is, without the long format at the *** and **** levels, who's to say that the big name riders and FEI will support the long format at any level?

Not trying to be cynical, just scared that the short format will eventually trickle down...

tle
Oct. 22, 2004, 12:26 PM
KC... my thoughts exactly. They are safe for the time being (IMHO) because no one has bothered with them (YET). But I can't see them lasting long if there is no traditional format CCI at the next level.

Jupes
Oct. 22, 2004, 12:33 PM
HEY!

I started working on a logo. Can I email it to someone who can post it?

I would love to get everyone's feedback.

tle, maybe you can attach it to the petition, as "letterhead".

I'm all over this one!

Janet
Oct. 22, 2004, 12:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>As a result, we request the job description and performance evaluation of the US Chef d'quip be modified to reward team victories/placings at traditional CCI format events OVER victories/placings at short-format CCI events. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> But when is the next TEAM event in the long format? Pnn Am games in 2007, maybe? WEG in 2009, maybe? Too far out to have an effect now. That is why I suggested "number of US competitors in the top 10 at Rolex", to have an effect NOW, while keeping the "national" focus (realizing that I MAY have my own vested interest in specific non-US competitors).

Nit- I think it is chef d'equip, not chef d'quip.

tle
Oct. 22, 2004, 12:53 PM
I see what you're saying about individual placings. I'll see about rewording that part. However, shouldn't we ALSO be emphasizing team? I know the next PLANNED long-format team event is far out, but isn't that at least part of the point? To get our voices heard to the USEF and make their voice heard to the FEI so we won't have to wait that long. Shouldn't we include points about team performance at long-format CCIs to HELP move the USEF along in their dealings with the FEI?

How about...

As a result, we request the job description and performance evaluation of the US Chef d'equip be modified to emphasize and reward team and US individual victories/placings at traditional CCI format events OVER victories/placings at short-format CCI events.

Thanks for the pickup on the chef spelling.

LLDM
Oct. 22, 2004, 12:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>As a result, we request the job description and performance evaluation of the US Chef d'quip be modified to reward team victories/placings at traditional CCI format events OVER victories/placings at short-format CCI events. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> But when is the next TEAM event in the long format? Pnn Am games in 2007, maybe? WEG in 2009, maybe? Too far out to have an effect now. That is why I suggested "number of US competitors in the top 10 at Rolex", to have an effect NOW, while keeping the "national" focus (realizing that I MAY have my own vested interest in specific non-US competitors).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The following link is from the FEI website: http://62.2.231.126/PDFS/C/05_04/Future_of_Eventing.pdf

It contains the schedule of both formats.

Maybe we should ask how the USEF responded to this?

Also: The following is an excerpt from the FEI GENERAL ASSEMBLY SUMMARY A record number of National Federations took part in the 2004 FEI General Assembly hosted by the French Equestrian Federation. The six days of meetings (16 through 21 April):

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>EVENTING It was confirmed that Eventing would consist of two categories of competitions: the Three Day Events (CCIs) and One Day Events (CICs) as per current rules. 1. Three Day Events (CCIs) can be run with or without steeplechase. 2. One day Events (CIC) are preparatory events for the CCIs. 3. World Cup events will continue to run under special regulations. Safety programme: The collection of statistics which was started 2 years ago is providing very useful information for the future development of safety measures for the sport The proposal to encourage a new under 25 category of events to cover the gap of progression of the Young riders from the 2 to 3 star level was supported. Slight modifications in qualifications procedures were approved, the general principles being maintained. The Chairman of the Eventing Committee expressed his satisfaction at the successful launch of the FEI Eventing World Cup in 2003. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It looks to me like the FEI is fully supporting both formats. That the short format championship series is provided as a means to qualify for the Olympics. The long format is still slated for the World Champions as far as I can see.

Maybe the FEI is not the enemy here. When the IOC was planning to get rid of eventing, where was the USEF? Who wrote the proposals to keep it in? Was the USA even at the table? Or were we busy fighting over who was in charge, the USET or the AHSA?

The short format was the answer to the question of how to keep eventing in the olympics. The FEI didn't make it up for no reason. To me, it looks like they are fully supporting BOTH formats in International competition.

If this is so, then what you are asking is for the USEF to focus on the long format track for the majority of the upper level Team resources. If that is what you want, then frame it that way. Or am I missing something?

SCFarm

Janet
Oct. 22, 2004, 12:57 PM
Yes. BOTH team placings at long format, and US competitors at Rolex.

In fact, on second thought, you coule expand it to
team placings at long format
AND
US riders in the top ten at ANY individual long format CCI****

Surely the US gets as much prestige from a top finish at Badminton or Burghley as they do from a top finish at the Olympics.

tle
Oct. 22, 2004, 12:59 PM
SCFarm

Yes, they do "offer" both. However, the focus is quickly being shifted to short-format. The WEG has the option and will be a short-format event in 2006 (someone correct me if I'm wrong). The powers that be are currently suggesting riders skip long-format events such at Rolex in favor of short-format events. With this kind of "support", the long traditional format event will not be around unless something is done to change the focus BACK to the long format... and a start would be for the USEF/USEA to keep their focus on the long format and reward (points, etc.) riders/horses accordingly.

Janet... did my last revision cover it? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Janet
Oct. 22, 2004, 01:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Janet... did my last revision cover it? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Almost. I think you need to say individual US placings at long format CCI**** (or MAYBE CCI**** and CCI***). I don't think we need the chef d'equip focusing on CCI* and CCI**.

And I think that if you stress the **** (which have as much visibility as the Team competitions), then everyone who wants to do a long format CCI**** will be doing the long format CCI*** to prepare.

Jupes
Oct. 22, 2004, 03:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jupes:
HEY!

I started working on a logo. Can I email it to someone who can post it?

I would love to get everyone's feedback.

tle, maybe you can attach it to the petition, as "letterhead".

I'm all over this one! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WHAT? No one wants to see my logo? It's very clever; "Save The Three-Day. It's as simple as A, B, C, D"

C'mon...

purplepants
Oct. 22, 2004, 03:11 PM
WOW, I just read that article and it is just amazing. Extremely motivating and emotional. He really puts into perspective how much is at stake here. Imagine not being able to really have a chance of making it with an OTTB. What would happen then to horses and riders alike. I definitely don't think the change from the long to short format is in the OTTB's best interest!I am surprised that I haven't really heard much of a debate over here in the U.K. from H&H or anything. I think you guys are doing a great job getting on the situation. Thank you for keeping all of us "out here" up to date so we/I can jump in as soon as the opportunity is available. You can count in my vote.

Lionheart
Oct. 22, 2004, 03:31 PM
Thank you guys for taking the initiave on this. I dont have any verbage ideas for the petition, but i do know that i'm ready and waiting to put my name to that puppy!

as for Jupes' logo, let's see it baby! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Jupes
Oct. 22, 2004, 03:34 PM
Can I please email the logo to someone who's able to post it here?

Lionheart
Oct. 22, 2004, 03:43 PM
Jupes, i dont know how to post pictures here either, but i'd love to see it!

Janet
Oct. 22, 2004, 03:44 PM
You can email it to me,and I will try to post it later this evening.

But there may be someone else who can get to it sooner.

Janet
Oct. 22, 2004, 03:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I definitely don't think the change from the long to short format is in the OTTB's best interest! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I THINK that what Denny was saying was that the harder dressage test (e.g., 3 flying changes, 15 m counter canter) is what ia not in the OTTB'a best interest. And that applies to both the curretn "long format" and the current "short format" CCI***/**** dressage tests.

Sannois
Oct. 22, 2004, 04:20 PM
YEAH!!!! I KNEW Denny would come through!!!!!!! What can I sign??

Sannois
Oct. 22, 2004, 04:22 PM
I'm picture posting Challenged as well, But I know Delta Wave and several others can do it!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

TheOrangeOne
Oct. 22, 2004, 06:20 PM
Perhaps include something about the CCN in it? "We believe that the USEA and all eventers of the united states has a vested interest in the preservation of the sport in its traditional format, and as such should provide every opprotunity for riders to support the long format, including but not limites to emphasizing teh long format as the pinnacle of teh sport and creating National level three day events so that eventers can compete with the long format while free from the FEI regualtions." Somethign along the lines of that, without the typos

Tom King
Oct. 22, 2004, 06:27 PM
tle, I would add "or the horses" right after "We believe it is NOT to the benefit of the sport


Good work!

Tom King
Oct. 22, 2004, 06:31 PM
Sorry, I posted that before I read your second version.

tle
Oct. 22, 2004, 08:15 PM
Jupes... of COURSE I want to see the logo!!! YOu should share it with bigdreamer who is making up the t-shirts!

Tom... no worries. This is going to have to wait until I get back in town tomorrow night anyway.

I do, however, have 150 copies of the article that I am going to pass out while at MidSouth. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Finally... a "good" way to use my 'pitbull' tendencies!! Woohoo!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Blugal
Oct. 23, 2004, 01:14 AM
Well, thanks for brining this up, and doing something about it! You've inspired me to print off the article and take it to our Horse Trials British Columbia (Can.) AGM.

Just to be a nitpick (I sometimes wear that hat...) it's chef d'equipe (with an 'e' at the end).
Thanks!

Robby Johnson
Oct. 23, 2004, 04:27 AM
Everyone keeps saying, "I don't want to pound my horse" and, thusly, are choosing "w/out steeplechase" options. I scratch my head over this since riders can now do 2-3 "CCI's" per season. With horse trials preparatory runs in between.

I think in 2-3 years the sport will either water down more, or there will be a return to the traditional format. Simply put, the horses will ultimately tell the story of how it affects them, and that is where the future of the sport will hinge.

For the common amateur, that is maybe good news. Just think, you can work on your dressage and show-jumping and if you can effectively jump around a preliminary XC course, you could also be considered for the Olympics! Let the point-chasing and blood-letting begin! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The paradigm shift over the past five years of increasingly complex dressage and show-jumping was not, in my opinion, a bad thing. I felt the added complexity was truly reflective of quality competition at the pinnacle level.

Thank you Denny, for addressing this with America. I am now more than ever of the conviction that CCN*/** will become a viable option and that individuals like you can help document and historically record the process for preparing a horse for the traditional format of competition. I do feel that is the ultimate reflection of horsemanship, and that it will be years before the short format "rules" can fall into place.

I wonder how those rules will be written? With horses being "saved" from pounding and competing so much more, and with points at stake, will we see the introduction of more lenient drug rules too?

Robby

Sannois
Oct. 23, 2004, 06:58 AM
I Repeat! This is a wonderful effort, and I think along the lines of what the Author of the article in Eventing magazine was talking about! A grass roots effort! The wording is excellent to the point, And if we can get enough sigs, Should make an impression. Well at least we wont be taking it lying down! Now! Where do I sign and How can I get a tee shirt??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

flyingchange
Oct. 23, 2004, 07:50 AM
Jupes -

I have a picturetrail accout and can post it there for you if you send the logo to me. I don't have a premimum COTH membership so I can't do that.

Anyway, can't wait to see it!

Erin
Oct. 23, 2004, 09:25 AM
Jupes, you can email it to me if you like and I'll post it. erin@chronicleforums.com

canyonoak
Oct. 23, 2004, 04:26 PM
One. Im with Denny:
Long format all the way.
Long fromat is the test of truth, the test of a champion. It is, simply, The Test.

That said, what the long format is up against is not merely those who have shrugged and Seen the Future--Blyth Tait, David O'Connor,et.al.--but the 'little gnomes' themselves...

here is how The World Eventing Cup is described:

&lt;&lt;The FEI Eventing World Cup is the sport's first linked series consisting of 17 qualifiers culminating in a yearly Final. It is organised at the highest level (three-star) of the short Eventing format which is the new standard for Championships and the Olympic Games. The series is designed in manner to encourage the participation of the world's best riders and horses and thus promote such emblematic values of Eventing, as the constant quest for harmony between physical skills and mental balance, contact with nature, precision, stamina, agility and insightful training. The FEI Eventing World Cup is a showcase of a sport resolutely turning to the future.&gt;&gt;


So the gnomes know that there are murmurs--and have come up with a new definition of the sport.

hoping Robby Johnson is correct, and the sport will re-discover the beauty of the long format...but not willing to bet on this outcome at all whatsoever. No Way..

cheers,

DizzyMagic
Oct. 23, 2004, 07:28 PM
...the common amateur with a half a million dollars laying around to drop on an expensive German warmblood...

Sorry...pessimism has got the better of me at the moment...!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Robby Johnson:
For the common amateur, that is maybe good news. Just think, you can work on your dressage and show-jumping and if you can effectively jump around a preliminary XC course, you could also be considered for the Olympics! Let the point-chasing and blood-letting begin! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Robby <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

tle
Oct. 23, 2004, 07:32 PM
Unfortunately, between the time, weather and my bruised/swollen back that had been in action all morning, I didn't get to pass out the articles BUT I did post them at the scoreboard, secretaries office, AND inside most (outside some) of the portapotties near the barns at KHP today (call it bathroom reading at its finest! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

However, with regards to what Robby said... just a possible interesting note of my own. When I arrived this morning, it was to sadness... due to the footing or something (have heard a couple stories), the steeplechase and phase C portions of the CCI* were eliminated. Competitors did phase A, had time for an over fences warmup, did phase D and then were monitored in the vet box per usual. I ended up taking MOST of the temps in the box at one point or another. Today's weather was cool, overcast and with a breeze. Should be perfect right? The Open division CCI* went first -- the likes of Buck Davidson, CAthy Weischhoff, ... competitors who were either non-US or upper level...so most should know what they are doing. I would say out of the first 10 horses to complete the course, 70% had initial temps in the high 104 to mid 105 range. And honestly, that didn't change much throughout the day. There were a small handful that came in in the high 102s but not many. AND there was a LOOOOONG walk from teh finish to the box... made longer by some who "took the scenic route" or hand walked in or even untacked PRIOR to those temps being taken. IN addition, there was what I felt was a strangely high number of horses who's temps just didn't fall much if at all during their time.

Now... no one can REALLY say this was a conditioning issue because all these riders were fully expecting a full traditional CCI*. I think the stats from today would be EXCEPTIONALLY telling in this short vs long format debate... especially since conditioning difference was nil.

LAZ
Oct. 23, 2004, 08:26 PM
TLE

When Obie came off the course at Fair Hill, his temp was higher than it's ever been at a 3-day--104.5. IIRC, last year at Radnor it was 103 something where it was warmer and hillier. I know the course was faster and longer, but I still got the ice on pronto when I got his temp.

LAZ

RacetrackReject
Oct. 23, 2004, 08:51 PM
I think some people are speaking out. David O'Connor was published as saying, "I don't think this event (the Olympics in Athens) was any safer than Sydney or Atlanta. If it's not safer, what's the point?". And isn't that part of how the FEI is touting this new format?

It was also publised that Jim Wofford "has issues with the short format- but says, "I'm personally prepared to agree with any change in conditions necessary to retain our place in the Olympics. They are important because it is a world stage for our sport." When it comes to World Championships, though, Jim believes that "it should be the long format. Including both formats "in the calendar" gives a wider range of opportunities for horses, riders, trainers, and dealers to produce different types of horses." I think the last comments go along with what Robby and others were saying.

Do we really want 2 different types of event horses? How is that going to strain the upper level riders who will now need high caliber horses of both type?

At first I thought that Eventing should do whatever it could to stay in the Olympics, but now I'm not so sure. Basically our whole sport is being broken down and rebuilt into something else just so that it can stay in the Olympics which makes me think "screw the Olympics" in favor of the sport keeping it's integrity. Denny is right, there are already sports that focus on Dressage only and Show Jumping only, and our sport should focus on Endurance Day because that is the heart of the sport and it's why not every horse can be an Event horse, nor every person can be an Eventer.

Of course I don't have any ideas how to fix it, but I'm willing to help by signing whatever I need to sign, or writing whomever I need to write. Maybe we should start with David because of his position and his passion for Eventing? Maybe he would share some insight or would be willing to give guidance as to which direction to go.

Janet
Oct. 24, 2004, 10:26 AM
This is an atempt to post Jupes's proposed logo.

But I suspect is going to be too big.

If it doesn't work, I'll try resizing it this evening (or Jupes, you could resize and send a resized version to me).

But I think it looks great!

Janet
Oct. 24, 2004, 10:28 AM
This is an atempt to post Jupes's proposed logo.

But I suspect is going to be too big.

If it doesn't work, I'll try resizing it this evening (or Jupes, you could resize and send a resized version to me).

But I think it looks great!

Yep, "File too big". Needs to be less than 100KB.

tle
Oct. 24, 2004, 11:57 AM
LAZ... my point (I think) was that without speculation over fitness (did the rider do enough because of knowlingly not needing steeplechase and phase C)... I just found it interesting that in "perfect" weather conditions, so many temps were so high. AND so many of them did not drop as one would think given the weather and cool-out time. Highest I saw all morning was 105.8 -- but MANY were over 105. It's all speculation as to if my observations "mean" anything or not, but I found them interesting in a "wonder how the short format affects the horse" kind of way. And based on JUST my observations, I don't like it. Especially wehn you add Obie's numbers to it as well. Just doesn't give me a warm fuzzy when it comes to the affects of the short format on the horses, regardless of how many times I hear proponents claim it's easier on the horses.

Gry2Yng
Oct. 24, 2004, 07:41 PM
First, I am all in favor of the long format and am in search of any evidence to support its demise, but as far as temps, is it possible that the deep footing could have contributed to the high temps? I also wonder if the humidity was high.

deltawave
Oct. 24, 2004, 08:01 PM
As to the conditioning effects, etc....just some VERY rambling thoughts.

I wonder if a selected CCI*'s vet box stats could be broken down a bit to use as at least the beginnings of a database. I saw some TIRED horses out there this weekend in Kentucky, but didn't get to see a lot of the "veterans" ride...mostly the Jrs and the amateurs. Could conditioning not have been a factor as well as the lack of steeplechase? Given that a sizable majority of horse/rider pairs at any given CCI* will be "first timers", (and therefore maybe not as well conditioned) I wonder if the CCI** might not be a better format for data-dredging.

OTOH, I saw some veteran horses acting very sticky at the first few fences...wondered if a lack of steeplechase was responsible and if these horses were going "what the fuh???" when the first few jumps wound up being big and solid and technical.

I thought Denny's article was OK, but perhaps some implementable suggestions would have been better than just a lament for the "good old days" and the "good old horses". Not too many people will argue that today's tough **** XC courses DEMAND a higher level of technicality/finesse than courses from 20 years ago, am I right? Wouldn't better dressage, then, be a requisite to safely tackle these more demanding courses? (exceptions noted, of course...Charisma was a phenominal dressage horse of yesterday, some of today's stars on XC are difficult in dressage, etc.)

I guess I didn't realize people were unhappy with the tougher dressage standards. It seems a shame to go backwards in this phase, especially since at the lower levels dressage is still so un-demanding.

I get the feeling that more and more eventing IS undergoing a major schism, but to me (given my humble place in the eventing world) it seems more like the upper levels are diverging from the lower levels, and THAT is (**TO ME**) more disturbing than the squabbling at the rarefied heights of the sport.

I guess it's a good thing that us lower level types are "immune" from the FEI's influence--we're kind of "below the radar", I guess. Our three day format--the one-star--isn't going anywhere any time soon, I don't think. Yet surely the CCI* is where you'll find the LEAST experienced eventers? This whole safety thing makes NO sense to me, it never has.

I always thought the short format was going to be an uneasy but necessary partner to the long format. Having seen--in my VERY limited experience--how much better horses seem to go AFTER steeplechase, I'm becoming convinced the FEI has got it all wrong. What a situation! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

EventerAJ
Oct. 24, 2004, 08:20 PM
tle- thanks for the info on the temps. When I heard about the "short format" change http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I wondered how the horses would be affected. Jess said the course didn't seem to ride much worse than usual.

As far as the weather on Saturday- it was similar to last year (early), and the year before: cool and overcast, becoming rainy. In 2002 the footing was VERY deep at the end, but I know the winning horse had a temp of mid-103 after D. He was fit, but appropriate for a one-star.

I heard steeplechase was under water on Wednesday, but we didn't get any more rain until mid-afternoon on Saturday. A friend walked the chase on Saturday morning, he said only one fence was questionable, and that fence could have been moved 20' to good footing. This was his opinion...I didn't see it for myself. But I can attest that the ground in general wasn't terrible... I parked my 2wd wimp truck in grass field and didn't get stuck. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I'm sorry for the one-star competitors who worked so hard and looked forward to doing a full three day. I wasn't competing, but I still felt disappointed... I know you don't want to risk your horse, but I think the weather conditions weren't all that bad.

I know the organizers made the decision expecting the worst, and it wasn't as bad as predicted. Hindsight is 20/20.

ksbadger
Oct. 24, 2004, 09:30 PM
Deltawave,
You said "Wouldn't better dressage, then, be a requisite to safely tackle these more demanding courses?"

According to Lucinda Green, writing after the tragic series of accidents in the Uk, the answer is NO. She beleives (or beleived at the time) that the part of the problem was that some horses were so over-trained that they lost that natural response that would allow them to instinctively get themselves and their rider out of trouble.

deltawave
Oct. 25, 2004, 06:10 AM
With all due respect to Lucinda Green, I wonder if that argument isn't part of this polarity among eventers...if you hate the short format, you'd say something like that, wouldn't you? And conversely, if you favor the short format, you're going to pick and choose examples of how the long format is worse.

I repeat: I have no legitimately held, powerful beliefs one way or another because there are no data to support either viewpoint. Emotion should have no place in this debate; it's where credibility is lot on both sides. Time for some RESEARCH. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Janet
Oct. 25, 2004, 07:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> According to Lucinda Green, writing after the tragic series of accidents in the Uk, the answer is NO. She beleives (or beleived at the time) that the part of the problem was that some horses were so over-trained that they lost that natural response that would allow them to instinctively get themselves and their rider out of trouble. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> With all due respect to Lucinda Green, I wonder if that argument isn't part of this polarity among eventers...if you hate the short format, you'd say something like that, wouldn't you? And conversely, if you favor the short format, you're going to pick and choose examples of how the long format is worse. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You seem to be missing the point. The dressage is EXACTLY the same in the long format and the short format CCI*** and CCI****.

There is a certain correlation betwen the people whjo favor the more technical dressage, and the people who favor the short format. But the issues are completely independant.

tle
Oct. 25, 2004, 07:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I guess it's a good thing that us lower level types are "immune" from the FEI's influence--we're kind of "below the radar", I guess. Our three day format--the one-star--isn't going anywhere any time soon, I don't think. Yet surely the CCI* is where you'll find the LEAST experienced eventers? This whole safety thing makes NO sense to me, it never has. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have to argue this point. The lower levels are NOT completely immune from the FEI influence. Where do you think that ridiculous change in SJ scoring came from? From teh FEI, where yes it does make sense that one would accrue tons of time faults given a refusal and thus "it all works out in the end". HOWEVER, it does NOT make sense at the lower levels because the speeds and fences are too slow/low. I've seen several refusals at Novice but no time faults are assessed. However the USEF/USEA adopted teh change because that's the way teh FEI events were going and of course it would be ludicrious to assume people could keep track of 2 separate sets of rules http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif... so we'll just screw up 75% of our membership. (pet peeve, can ya tell?)

So I don't think the lower level membership can just sit back and say "it's the FEI and therefore we have no reason to speak up... it doesn't/won't" affect us. As for the CCI* changing... again, no not any time soon, but if the long format isn't seen as a prep at the * level for eventually the ***/**** levels, how long do you think organizers will continue to offer it? How long do you think they'll sink in TONS of $$ and TONS of volunteer hours when they could spend that $$ and those hours at something they might actually have a chance of making $$ at (a short format or horse trial)? You do realize (you being the general sense of course) that the Team Challenge horse trials "pays" for the CCI*, right?

bambam
Oct. 25, 2004, 07:31 AM
tle- I like the latest version of the petition a lot.
where do I sign?http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
I disagree that emotion has no appropriate role here- my love of the sport forms a large part of my opinion here. I 100% agree that we need research and that that should ultimately determine where we go. But I don't think it is wrong to feel strongly about this separate and apart from the data- emotion just should not form the only part of the argument but emotion (in the form of love of the sport) certainly should form part of the argument.

Janet
Oct. 25, 2004, 07:52 AM
Logo

As I said earlier, the logo Jupes sent me was too big for COTH.

Didn't have much luck resizing it on my home computer.

But I ahad more luck at owrk.

I have one version with the same resolution, but only 8 bit color, and another with "true color", but less resolution.

Either should be sufficient for discussion, ad I am sure JUPES will send the original file to anyone who needs both true color and high resolution.

Here is the "8 bit color" version.

Janet
Oct. 25, 2004, 07:53 AM
Logo

And here is the version with full color, but reduced resolution.

Jupes
Oct. 25, 2004, 07:56 AM
Thank you SO MUCH, Janet!

Janet
Oct. 25, 2004, 07:56 AM
And, with perfect timing, Here is one that Jupes resized herself.

JDufort
Oct. 25, 2004, 08:31 AM
I love it.

decals, t-shirts, petition logo...

Robby Johnson
Oct. 25, 2004, 10:00 AM
buttons to wear in SFO!

deltawave
Oct. 25, 2004, 10:05 AM
I know the dressage is the same for both formats. I was referring to Denny's reference to "horses who are too aggressive to calmly deal with three flying changes and tight 15-meter counter-canter serpentines."

Argh, I am totally aware that I'm not expressing myself clearly! This is not usually a problem--a reflection of my utter confusion and ambivalence on this topic?? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

My original comment was that the article, while emotionally appealing to all who love eventing, didn't IMO offer much of an alternative for TODAY. It came off as the "good old days" vs. the "newfangled horrible format". Being the fence-sitting, waffle type http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I tend to automatically zero in on the middle ground...and there just doesn't seem to BE one here in all the debate.

And I certainly didn't mean that there is no room for emotion in this debate, but there HAVE to be facts to back it up, too. In reading Denny's article, I can't imagine ANYONE (myself included!!!) NOT giving a cheer of support for the long format.

What I also read was a feeling that there are a lot of rumors and innuendo behind the reasons for the change. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> But this is a new era, brought on, if you believe the rumors, by a group of German show jumpers who control the [FEI] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That just makes me incredibly confused--either the reasons for the short format are well spelled out, or they're not. I thought it was an Olympics issue? I thought it was the animal rights activists? I thought it was about land? I thought it was about safety? It's like "pick your conspiracy theory", and to me it all sounds incredibly uncertain.

Here I go again--can't put my thoughts down clearly. Please don't misunderstand--I support the "old style" CCI in every way. I started out thinking the short format might be a good thing to have ALONG WITH the old format (I believe in peaceful coexistence) but it seems that will never be allowed to happen. WHY? Are the powers-that-be turning this into a power struggle? Can the sport not accomodate both? Is the FEI the archenemy? Is one format or another really "bad"? Sadly, I have more questions than answers, but I appreciate the input and wisdom of all the people who are more "in the know" than I am. I just wish all these "rumors" could be laid to rest about the origins of the short format.

IQ3day
Oct. 25, 2004, 10:38 AM
I posted this on another thread but I'm gona post it here.....


Mood of the topic. posted Oct. 25, 2004 02:38 AM Oct. 25, 2004 02:38 AM
Whew! Just returned home from KY and could resist posting. So please, forgive all my spelling mistakes because it is 1:30 AM here! I had a wonderful weekend. Im dissapointed in myself but not in my horse. He put in a personal best dressage (48.6) in the CCI* and a best showjumping form both of us. But I had a silly blip on the xc and had a runout. We still only had 5 time pents. He was extremly FIT!! I was really happy with how EASY my guy made it feel. Next event is the move up to intermediate! TLE- did you see my pony or me? #43. What do you look like? I might rember you?

Now...for the sad stuff. Why must they take the steeplechase off? Wet weather? Sure that was part of it. But I do remember running the CCI* there two years ago in freezing rain and standing water. Umm. I think this has been such an expiremental year with the format and the FEI and ground jury were afraid to run it. Simple as that. I think it was a bad idea to call it off before they waited to see if it dired up though. Cause it was not standing water when I snooped about on saturday morning!

We spent much time in our barn talking about the Denny article. Boy did he hit it right on the spot. I would love to see the long format stay. I spent a lot of time talking this weekend with Bill Hoos's son about this. We decided our generation loves to run at outrageous speeds at solid obsticles. What about the horses that are waiting for the steeplechase?? I supose we make their riders and them suffur by cantering sideways on A and then going out to XC where they tear off with you?! THAT doesnt seem safe to me? I could never do the short format on my Intermediate horse. Therefore I NEVER will.

I was soo dissapointed this weekend in the last minute change. Was this fair to all those who spent the money and time to not know they were signing up for a glorified horse trial? you tell me.

I know I was not happy having to run the short format for so many reasons. I spent for much time getting my horses fit and now he was too fit and took much un-needed pounded over the last two months. And spending severel $100 in Adequan and Ledgen was not soo necessary.

But we do have to look at Fair Hill. The long format was offer. No one entered. Maybe riders do want the short format? But the way they are running it now is not sutible. Look at how many horses are doing soo much worse. Riders, you guys have to show what you want. Dont wait around for someone to tell you what its going to be. Raise your hands and offer your advice in how to run a new format thats sutible to you and your horses. Or stand up for the original! But make a choice!

The short format to me seems HARDER on the horses. You make them be out of hand on A (most of them) and then run XC. You have more jumping efforts in a smaller distance with a faster time. Causing horses to run steepechase speed in btwn. and then coffin canter to jump. Just seems dumb to break their rythem that much!

I dont know about you guys. But I signing up for the glory of the orignial sport. It is true, this is a sport for the servival of the fittest. I want to keep dreaming of achieving my same dreams. Not change my goals because of the FEI. If I want to change them, I will make that choice my self. I want to continue bitting my nails off and having the wind blow tears out of my eyes while I do what I LOVE doing.

Janet
Oct. 25, 2004, 11:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> But we do have to look at Fair Hill. The long format was offer. No one entered. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually they DID enter, but not enough of them. I have heard several different figures, but the most reliable was 16. And Fair Hill couldn't justify all the additional expense and volunteers for 16 riders.

And the impression I get from my sister, and from Heather, is that the REASON so few entered was "Mark Phillips said they would have the best chance of being considered for future teams if they did the short format".

TBFAN
Oct. 25, 2004, 01:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It came off as the "good old days" vs. the "newfangled horrible format"...
And I certainly didn't mean that there is no room for emotion in this debate, but there HAVE to be facts to back it up, too. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with the point Deltawave makes here. Maybe now that the results of some short format competitions are in, we can show the fact that they're harder on the horses (or so it seems from what I've read).

In my own experience, I would agree that there is some confusion around the origin and continuation of the short format. Several eventers I spoke to thought it was just an Olympics issue this year. It's been frustrating to remind them what's at stake without getting emotional!

I love the logo, and I want to do whatever I can to help. But is it really going to be simple to save the 3 day? Can we petition riders not to compete in the short format in protest? If we still had the old format of team selection, we could have a small group of horses that just competed that way and went to the Olympics. I wish I had more ideas to offer. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Synrgystyk
Oct. 26, 2004, 11:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tle:
&lt;snip&gt;
We therefore request an official investigation into the affects of the change in format on the horse
&lt;snip&gt;
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, if we're going to post a petition for worldwide consideration...it's "effects" of the change, not "affects."

Putting the editor back in her cage.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Lorree

wanderlust
Oct. 27, 2004, 08:18 PM
deltawave, in response to your comment a page or two back about Lucinda's take on dressage, I personally think she is right on the money. I have ridden with two successful FEI dressage riders who were successful upper-level eventers before turning exclusively to dressage. One claimed she ruined her horse for XC by taking him through the FEI levels for dressage. She believed that the discipline required to have every step dictated took away his ability to think for himself on XC if they got into trouble... after being trained to FEI, he would wait for her to tell him what to do. The other was very much in agreement that upper-level dressage and XC did not usually mix well.

Personally, I think Lucinda is very much on the mark.

Janet
Oct. 27, 2004, 09:25 PM
In the recent clinic, Lucinda stressed that you need to achieve balance. On cross countyr, the horse has to be willing to take direction form the rider, while at the same time retaining the ability to "think or itself" and amke decisions independant of thr rider.

I also remember reading about some upper level jumper rider (Steinkaus, maybe) who had a horse that, recovering from an injury, had an extendid period when it could be ridden on the flat, but not jumped. He taught the horse more advanced dressage, including flying changes and tempis. He said he ddeply regretted it, because the horse was TOO sensitive to his weight shifts, and forever changing leads when he didn't intend it!

bigdreamer
Oct. 28, 2004, 12:51 PM
guys... i posted something about this on the t-shirt thread... but i have to say it seems like we are all dancing around the thought of forming a "group" to fight this... a real formal non-profit organization... well, why don't we stop dancing around it and DO IT??

whose in?

my mom has formed 2 and was president of both for quite a while, i'm sure she would be able to help me. I'm sure there are some other people no here that have experience with this sort of thing... Deltawave said something in the other post along the lines of "how are the t-shirts and stuff going to help?" sure they'll get the word out a bit, but it's not changing much. we need to make a change. well, prevent change.

we could use the petition TLE made as our mission statement.
we can be the rider representatives for our sport. they should have to take council with us before making any drastic changes like this EVER...

thoughts?

deltawave
Oct. 28, 2004, 01:09 PM
A governing body typically does NOT consult their membership before making decisions. It is up to the membership, however, to elect these governing bodies.

Somebody educate me: Who are the FEI? How are the members selected? I kind of think that as USEA members a better route would be through the USEA, not the FEI.

In most societies there ARE laws that allow items to be "brought to the table" for discussion or vote if a majority of the membership demands it. Anybody have the USEA bylaws handy?

RoeVee
Oct. 28, 2004, 01:46 PM
Bigdreamer -

I am definitely in! Haven't done a 3day YET but would love to do one in the future. I go to many of the shows in Area IX - so if anything needs to get handed out, petitions signed, t-shirts/buttons sold - I'm there.

Ellie K
Oct. 28, 2004, 02:50 PM
The members of the FEI are the 133 or so national federations affiliated to it; each national federation has one vote in most of what the FEI does. Some things (dressage tests are one example) are approved only by the FEI Bureau (18 or 20 people--committee chairs, regional group chairs, etc. who are nominated/recommended by their NFs and approved by the FEI General Assembly).

The General Assembly, held each April, is the supreme authority of the FEI. New rule books and rule changes are developed by the respective committees, subject to the approval of first the Bureau and then the General Assembly. Drafts of new rule books, as well as proposed rule changes which have not already been published in the FEI Bulletin, are sent to the NFs prior to the General Assembly as part of the meeting agenda, and are regularly made available to the NFs months prior to their final approval. Rule changes, even those already published, and even if they have already taken effect (normally they take effect Jan 1), are ALWAYS subject to the approval of the NFs at the subsequent General Assembly and can be reversed by the GA after they have already taken effect (evidenced in 2002 in endurance). Historically, the drafts have not been distributed. At times, they have not even been looked at. Consequently, new rule books and rule changes we and other countries don't want get ratified by the General Assembly each year, usually unanimously accepted with no objections raised by any NFs. In 2001, it was the endurance people who got screwed. In 2002, it was dressage.

Regardless of the proposals and letters that get sent here and there about the direction of the sport, format preferences, etc., the sport is fundamentally changed only when the rules are changed to allow it.

So, there may be 'little FEI gnomes' in Switzerland, but those little gnomes in fact exist in each country's national federation, whose voting delegates (traveling on your dime)approve the rule changes each year, often contrary to the consensus of their memberships and to the detriment of the sport.

deltawave
Oct. 28, 2004, 04:15 PM
Thank you very much, Ellie K!

So it's back to the USEA, which I assume sends the US representative to the FEI meetings. We (the US) might only have one vote, but it seems as though that vote might actually be in doubt, what with Mark Phillips so (seemingly) negative and him being in the position he's in. (ie, team captain, etc.)

I would think David O'Connor would really, really be the person to go to with this issue, him being president of the USEF and by all accounts someone who does want to listen to us "smurfs".

I feel a "Dear David" letter coming on! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Gry2Yng
Oct. 28, 2004, 04:39 PM
FWIW, USEA is not a member of the FEI. USEF is the member. There is an Eventing Committee in the USEF, I believe Roger Haller is the Chair. The FEI also has an eventing committee if I am not mistaken. I am not sure there is an American on that committee.

deltawave
Oct. 28, 2004, 04:41 PM
OK, I stand corrected...again! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif I really, really think a very thorough understanding of how the FEI/USEA/USEF interact is needed for us to be able to discuss this issue in an intelligent manner. So thank you for the education!

Gry2Yng
Oct. 28, 2004, 05:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by deltawave:
OK, I stand corrected...again! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif I really, really think a very thorough understanding of how the FEI/USEA/USEF interact is needed for us to be able to discuss this issue in an intelligent manner. So thank you for the education! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that is some kind of advanced degree that NO ONE is willing to pay the tuition for. Something like a PhD in FEI.

JFS
Oct. 28, 2004, 05:49 PM
Thanks TLE for posting Denny's article in the at the jons at the KHP. I started reading inside one, but it was later in the week & too nasty to stay in for the whole article. I did finish it at another jon where it was posted on the outside. Of course I agree with everyone else, it was great & perfect timing.

I was there with two students, second 3 day for both of them. We all were really bummed out that it was reduced to the "without Steeplechase" format. Apparently it has been decided to call it that because it is felt that the "short" format would give people the impression that it is less significant if it is called "short" Well duh...

As far as the stats go, my son's horse in a previous 3-day came in off of C with a temp of 101.6 and after 5 minutes in the box it came down to 101.2 & a heart rate of 44. He came in off of D with a temp of 101.4 & was released from the vet box by the time I got back there.

Last weekend his stats were significantly higher. Yes it was more humid, but it was cooler. But the horse actually got to cool down on phase C & went out on D almost completely recovered wheheas last weekend we came in off of A & then had to warm up over a few fences before we headed out. We finally got kicked out of the after D box, not because his stats were down but because the horse was being so obnoxious & abusive to the people around him. He knew he hadn't done all that he had come to do & his stats weren't coming down because he was pumped up. This was a horse who really could have used the full format. Of course he's a TB, but he is home raised & never raced.

Just another note, the NAYRC ** will be the "short" format because it is a championship & the FEI says that all championships @ this time will be in the short format.

As far as Lucinda goes, I heard her keynote talk at the USEA Annual Meeting in Portland where she talked about too much dressage making the horses too dependent on the rider to tell them what to do & loosing the ability to think for themselves. For anyone who has ridden with her, you know how she puts together all those funny lines & distances to help the horse to learn to think & react for themselves while we do our best to keep them balanced & powerful while staying out of their way. I know I'm in no danger of causing this problem for my horses, as my dressage will never be that good.

Personally I would like to see the One * run as a CCN. (national competition rather than a FEI competition) It would be a whole less expensive for the organizer to run & therefore less expensive for the competitor.

One final note, I really like the logo, except for the green horse. Maybe black or brown?

I will be going to San Francisco, & believe me I will voice my opinion & that of all the others who are in support of the "real" three day event.

JFS

deltawave
Oct. 28, 2004, 06:01 PM
Another thing I'd ask of all of you going to San Francisco. (along the same lines as my other posts)

Would the "powers that be" PLEASE consider publishing some sort of letter to the USEA membership explaining

a) the FEI's "official" stance on the reasons for the short format change

b) any statistics that were used to support the chanbe

c) the USEA's "official" stance on the short format

d) what sort of studies are going on to see if this format actually will work out.

I know this is a rehash of a lot of what's been said, but this kind of clear, factual statement is sorely needed, IMO!! Passions are running high and that's all well and good, but IFO would like to see some FACTS so that I know these changes are being made for good reasons (or otherwise). http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

Ellie K
Oct. 28, 2004, 06:52 PM
Here are some interesting old links, let me know if they don't work.

Letter to Infanta (http://www.equestrian.org/aboutus/inter/eventing/FEI-Eventing-Oct-16.pdf)

FEI proposal to IOC (http://www.equestrian.org/aboutus/inter/eventing/fei-proposal-to-ioc.pdf)

FEI Future of Eventing docs (http://62.2.231.126/C/c_05_04.html)

The US position was very well represented during all these discussions, and I think the FEI did a great job of involving the NFs and seeking consensus before going back to the IOC with their proposal, but what surprised me was that as quickly as the FEI caved to the IOC (unlike the other sports which were threatened, who reportedly stood their ground), the countries so committed to the long format so quickly caved to the FEI. I think I understand the reasons for the focus on the short for now, I just feel like if the countries supporting the long format don't continue to represent that position in favor of it within the FEI structure, that's the end of it for all time. This can hardly be a majority opinion, I mean it's us, AUS, GBR, IRL and who else? The other countries all have much to gain by the switch to the short. All the small/developing countries (and that's a huge percentage of the FEI) will have, on the surface at least, more opportunity to participate if the short format reigns. It's more inclusive and that's what the IOC wants. And that grows the sport worldwide and that's a valid reason for promoting the CIC and CCI short, but it needs to then come back around, using the growth to feed the development of the long format again later on, when the sport has more of a base to support both. I don't see that happening if these few countries don't take a stand to consistently, quietly, and diplomatically continue to represent that position at every opportunity within the FEI. Doing away with it altogether is the easiest solution, so that's what will happen if no opposition is heard.

Pol
Nov. 3, 2004, 03:56 PM
Hey. I am the caboose here, but did want to chuck a couple of cents into the pot. Over the last year +, I have spoken with a few 'horse professionals' (vets, massage therapists, saddle fitters, etc) and BNR's who have ALL said that the short formats they had witnessed had shown the horses to be in very rough shape upon their return to the barns. Most of them required much more attention/treatment than they had in the past when competing in long format CCI's. I am afraid if the short format is allowed to stay, even if on a trial basis, we will see more and more tragic ends. It really does scare me. I am too old to have (*** or ****) be my OWN goals, but my daughter is out there riding at night after classes trying to make her way up the ladder. I dread the loss of the full format.
Can we get the petition signed before San Francisco? You guys are great.

tle
Nov. 4, 2004, 06:54 AM
I know I was asked by Katie Lindsey and Kyra Stuart about my observations when taking temps in the "after D box" at MidSouth CCI* as they are both concerned as well. Especially when teh official line they received was "nothing out of the norm happened." http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I wish I was going to SF now! Nothing out of the norm? When consistently horses are coming in with 105+ temps? When quite a few horses were released with 104+ temps on a cool, overcast and breezy morning?? If that's the norm, then it's VERY scarey indeed.

flyingchange
Nov. 4, 2004, 07:20 AM
Hi TLE -

Did you finish that online petition? I apologise if you've already posted it but I'm not seeing the link to it.

Would you mind please posting the link again?

Thanks http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

tle
Nov. 4, 2004, 07:40 AM
No I hadn't... thanks for reminding me. I have now... and will start a separate topic for it!

Fred
Nov. 6, 2004, 05:10 PM
to quote: "don't mourn; organize" -
I agree completely - if you don't like it, don't sit on your hands....
I am hoping the Canadians on this BB can get the ball rolling too..