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DutchDressageQueen
Aug. 1, 2011, 06:36 PM
I am doing a paper, and I would like to know which vets have proved that rollkur is damaging to the horse. also any helpful websites with objective information about rollkur would be appreciated.

Thanks!

(not trying to start a rant, so please only post the vets which have proved that rollkur is damaging and/or helpful websites):)

dressurpferd01
Aug. 1, 2011, 06:44 PM
Good luck with that. I'm not aware of any definitive studies that have been done. And good luck finding "objective" info on the web. EVERYTHING has an agenda.

cnm161
Aug. 1, 2011, 06:59 PM
Ohhhh boy.

DutchDressageQueen
Aug. 1, 2011, 07:02 PM
again please resist the urge to post unless you have helpful information
Thanks

DDQ

netg
Aug. 1, 2011, 07:16 PM
Good luck with that. I'm not aware of any definitive studies that have been done. And good luck finding "objective" info on the web. EVERYTHING has an agenda.

This is pretty helpful information.

I believe there have been some "see, it's harmful!" type of studies/reports which were never actual proof. I don't believe there are any true, peer-reviewed, accepted studies showing it to be harmful.


I may not *like* rollkur, but I still don't believe any of the "proof" out there. (And with a quick google I didn't come up with the referenced for you, but you may be able to find some with more googling time. Gerd Heuschmann is a good place to start.)

schneidepc
Aug. 1, 2011, 07:38 PM
Start with Dr. Gerd Heuschmann's book "Tug of War: Classical vs 'Modern' Dressage".

ise@ssl
Aug. 1, 2011, 07:42 PM
Gerd's book is excellent and so is his follow up video.

siegi b.
Aug. 1, 2011, 07:43 PM
... and this paper would be for what class? Please enlighten me before I give out more information.

dressurpferd01
Aug. 1, 2011, 07:45 PM
Start with Dr. Gerd Heuschmann's book "Tug of War: Classical vs 'Modern' Dressage".


Gerd's book is excellent and so is his follow up video.

Too bad he doesn't practice what he preaches...

AWorkinProgress
Aug. 1, 2011, 07:49 PM
Have you tried PubMed? There are several published studies on the subject. "Proved" is a highly subjective word, anyway. You must look at the evidence and draw your own conclusions.

DutchDressageQueen
Aug. 1, 2011, 08:06 PM
... and this paper would be for what class? Please enlighten me before I give out more information.

It is for my highschool English class.

DutchDressageQueen
Aug. 1, 2011, 08:07 PM
I will google Dr. Gerd Heuschmann and see what comes up

alibi_18
Aug. 1, 2011, 09:05 PM
If you want to be objective, you should also look at Anky's clinics on youtube related to hyperflexion. Low Deep and round training technique.

Sjef Jensenn of course.

Sustainable dressage has good articles : http://www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/schrijer.php

Pia Munck of scandinavian dressage website/blog.

Also look at the western folks.

Dr. Heuschmann is quite controversial.

Look at the people in Allege Ideal.

But why did you choose that subject?? This is a really tough one and I don't think 'non-horsey' folks will understand what you'll be talking about...

Good luck! :)

DutchDressageQueen
Aug. 1, 2011, 09:11 PM
If you want to be objective, you should also look at Anky's clinics on youtube related to hyperflexion. Low Deep and round training technique.

Sjef Jensenn of course.

Sustainable dressage has good articles : http://www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/schrijer.php

Pia Munck of scandinavian dressage website/blog.

Also look at the western folks.

Dr. Heuschmann is quite controversial.

Look at the people in Allege Ideal.

But why did you choose that subject?? This is a really tough one and I don't think 'non-horsey' folks will understand what you'll be talking about...

Good luck! :)

Thanks for all the suggestions!:D

I am doing it on Rollkur because I would also like to learn more about it. (Of course I am including pictures and videos) so my teacher will know what I am talking about.

Donella
Aug. 1, 2011, 09:41 PM
Gerd's book is excellent and so is his follow up video

Excellent in what way? The guy quotes books and systems he has clearly never read/understood and he was photographed riding last year in a way that looks worse than any picture in his book.

Rollkur is defined by the FEI as training low, deep and round USEING EXCESSIVE FORCE. Obviously training in this way by this definition would be harmful (see the recent reining video posted by EPONA.TV).

However, it is important to note that riding in RK (according to the above definition) is not the same as riding a supple, relaxed horse low, deep and round (though Gerd and such people clearly make no distinction).

,

dragonharte8
Aug. 1, 2011, 10:09 PM
http://www.admon.com/products/professional-use/equine-exercise-endoscope/

Those who claim to investigate Rolkur have not used this piece of equipment. I have spoken to the company and they say it can by used with a bit and will not interfere with the bit.

$12,000.00 seems like a small price to pay if a vet 'really' wanted to see if there was compression of the air way in rolkur.

Also there is electronic sensors that can be placed on the surface of the skin to show tension in the muscles.
Also there there are blood tests that can demonstrate the changes in the structure of blood during rolkur, including the amount of oxygen in the blood.

Eireamon
Aug. 1, 2011, 10:12 PM
Google Dr Andrew McLean Rollkur. He was one of the ones that was on the panel that investigated Rollkur for the FEI.

I went to a seminar of his which discussed Rollkur quite intensively and there was lots of very interesting information. I am sure he published some papers on the effects of Rollkur and Learned Helplessness as a result of it.

Kazan
Aug. 2, 2011, 01:25 AM
Recently two FEI veterinarians have weighed in on rollkur in the context of FEI reining. Maybe contact them through the FEI?

Vet Leo Jeffcott

http://epona.tv/uk/news/show/artikel/olympic-vet-its-rollkur/?tx_ttnews[backPid]=388&cHash=2a51608d5b245572a1624b925f10a0f2

Vet Dr. Peter F. Cronau

http://epona.tv/uk/news/show/artikel/top-vet-comments-on-reining-videos/?tx_ttnews[backPid]=388&cHash=25264cedd208e2e38dae4ea5267c08bd

longride1
Aug. 2, 2011, 08:43 AM
Studies are very difficult to set up and even more difficult to interpret. They test very localized systems. The effect of neck position on weighting the hind quarters for instance. This study is widely quoted in support of deep riding, but it only measured transfer of weight. It did not measure effects on breathing, sight, pressure on the bursa of the joints, stress, build in muscles mass, etc.. Use the Google Scholar feature for publications in peer reviewed science journals. You'll be amazed at the broad, generalizations made by even good scientists from very limited, very specific data.

longride1
Aug. 2, 2011, 08:45 AM
BTW, I haven't been able to find any studies on the biomechanics of movements used in western disciplines. If there are any out there please point me to them. I need that information.

Oberon13
Aug. 2, 2011, 09:18 AM
I just wanted to drop in and say that, as a writing teacher, I'm very pleased to see a student allowed to write about what interests him/her. It's a fantastic teaching technique to help develop writing skills, knowledge of the writing process, and writer confidence. Good for your teacher! ;)

Moving on...another vote for you to check out the links given by Kazan on the FEI investigation of reining practices. It's recent and relevant (two qualities valued in research).

carolprudm
Aug. 2, 2011, 09:41 AM
I just wanted to drop in and say that, as a writing teacher, I'm very pleased to see a student allowed to write about what interests him/her. It's a fantastic teaching technique to help develop writing skills, knowledge of the writing process, and writer confidence. Good for your teacher! ;)





Yes, but as someone with a science backround I cringed at the use of the word "proved". Harm is loosely defined and the empirical evidence points in both directions.

It's like porn or the recent Casey Anthony trial. Yeah we may know porn or harm or damages or guilt when we see it but can we define or proove it.

Oberon13
Aug. 2, 2011, 10:17 AM
Yes, but as someone with a science backround I cringed at the use of the word "proved". Harm is loosely defined and the empirical evidence points in both directions.

It's like porn or the recent Casey Anthony trial. Yeah we may know porn or harm or damages or guilt when we see it but can we define or proove it.

Absolutely agree! Not something I was arguing with at all! I'm just pleased to see writing taught in an encouraging way (a particular soap box of mine as a writing teacher - that everyone is so scared of writing because it's been beaten out of us by the time we graduate from high school. This particular high school teacher seems to "get it" in terms of encouraging writing skills to grow).

If the OP plans on pursuing a science career or science studies in college, I'm sure he/she will come to see the more nuanced ways of using language that the exacting nature of science demands!

Mardi
Aug. 2, 2011, 10:38 AM
Recently two FEI veterinarians have weighed in on rollkur in the context of FEI reining.



One vet also mentions the 23 second spin in the warm-up at the championships as a problem as well.

Once reining became an FEI sport, it was only a matter of time before
someone had to step in and question their training methods.

The photo posted on the epona website of the western rider with his horse's head bent around and deep is VERY typical of western training, no matter what level. So is the position of the rider....looking around to see who's watching. :)

The OP can put that in her paper.

Donella
Aug. 2, 2011, 11:34 AM
The photo posted on the epona website of the western rider with his horse's head bent around and deep is VERY typical of western training, no matter what level. So is the position of the rider....looking around to see who's watching.

Again, it's not supposed to be about the position of the horse's head. It's the force used to put it there. You can clearly see the rider yanking the horse as hard as he can, standing in the stirrups to yank. THAT is Rollkur.

The problem is that everyone seems to use the word Rollkur to define the position of the horse's head when he is schooling and then saying that anyone who rides a horse with his head and neck in LDR position uses Rollkur. LDR and Rollkur are not the same thing nor should they be confused. One carries the implication of abuse. So when someone says Anky uses Rollkur, they are implying that she uses abusive training methods, when in fact, she does not (though she does use LDR and has retired most, if not all, of her top international GP horses sound in their late teens).

So before you write a paper on the negative effects of rollkur, make sure you understand the FEI definition of it and how it differs from simply riding the horse LDR. As I recall, the FEI hired a veterinary panel to investigate the ethical implications of riding horses in LDR and they concluded that there is nothing harmful in riding horses in such a way (this was back when the outrage over riding horses in LDR started ).

wendy
Aug. 2, 2011, 11:57 AM
there's a couple of them on pubmed, this one looks like a reasonable design (same horses compared to themselves after different riding methods). But not sure if it meets the definition of "rollkur". I watched the video of the reining horse being yanked and was more disturbed by someone yanking that hard on a curb bit than the horse's head position.


Tijdschr Diergeneeskd. 2006 Mar 1;131(5):152-7.
Workload and stress in horses: comparison in horses ridden deep and round ('rollkur') with a draw rein and horses ridden in a natural frame with only light rein contact.
Sloet van Oldruitenborgh-Oosterbaan MM, Blok MB, Begeman L, Kamphuis MC, Lameris MC, Spierenburg AJ, Lashley MJ.
SourceDepartment of Equine Sciences, Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, Utrecht University, Yalelaan 12, 3584 CM Utrecht, The Netherlands. m.sloet@vet.uu.nl

Abstract
'Rollkur' or 'overbending' is the low and deep riding of a dressage horse during training or warming up. Lately, this technique has been criticized, and not necessarily objectively, on welfare grounds. To be able to evaluate these criticisms, more needs to be known about the workload and stress of horses being ridden 'rollkur'. The aim of the present study was to compare the workload of eight riding-school horses when being ridden deep and round with a draw rein ('rollkur') and when being ridden in a natural frame with only light rein contact ('free'). Workload (as measured by heart rate and blood lactate concentration) was slightly higher when horses were ridden 'rollkur' than when they were ridden 'free'. There were no differences in packed cell volume, or glucose and cortisol concentrations. No signs of uneasiness or stress could be determined when the horses were ridden 'rollkur'. Subjectively, all horses improved their way of moving during 'rollkur' and were more responsive to their rider.

PMID:16532786[

DutchDressageQueen
Aug. 2, 2011, 01:40 PM
Again, it's not supposed to be about the position of the horse's head. It's the force used to put it there. You can clearly see the rider yanking the horse as hard as he can, standing in the stirrups to yank. THAT is Rollkur.

The problem is that everyone seems to use the word Rollkur to define the position of the horse's head when he is schooling and then saying that anyone who rides a horse with his head and neck in LDR position uses Rollkur.

That is exactly what I was thinking.

dghunter
Aug. 2, 2011, 03:43 PM
I just wanted to drop in and say that, as a writing teacher, I'm very pleased to see a student allowed to write about what interests him/her. It's a fantastic teaching technique to help develop writing skills, knowledge of the writing process, and writer confidence. Good for your teacher! ;)

Ditto! It can be hard to help some students figure out what they want to write about (once they get beyond standard issues like death penalty, abortion, etc...) but once they find something it's great! I had students write about breast cancer who knew survivors, diabetes, etc... In college I wrote a paper about synthetic tracks vs. traditional dirt in my bio class.

/tangent

DutchDressageQueen
Aug. 2, 2011, 03:54 PM
Recently two FEI veterinarians have weighed in on rollkur in the context of FEI reining. Maybe contact them through the FEI?

Vet Leo Jeffcott

http://epona.tv/uk/news/show/artikel/olympic-vet-its-rollkur/?tx_ttnews[backPid]=388&cHash=2a51608d5b245572a1624b925f10a0f2

Vet Dr. Peter F. Cronau

http://epona.tv/uk/news/show/artikel/top-vet-comments-on-reining-videos/?tx_ttnews[backPid]=388&cHash=25264cedd208e2e38dae4ea5267c08bd

Those are very helpful, I would like to see the video of the reining warmup that they are talking about. Where could I find that?

DutchDressageQueen
Aug. 2, 2011, 04:01 PM
actually, I just found the video. I do not know much about western riding, so can someone please explain what kind of bits are used?

Thanks

HFSH
Aug. 2, 2011, 05:20 PM
I can't believe no one has yet suggested you contact Dr. Hilary Clayton.

Liz
Aug. 2, 2011, 08:38 PM
Funny, I was just reading this thread and thinking for sure someone would have mentioned her. Check out her book, "Activate Your Horses Core" if you google her you should be able to get some information. She did a study on the biomechanics of stretching and strengthening the horses core muscles with ground exercises. There was an article about her a few months ago either in Chronicle of the Horse or Dressage Today. I can't remember. Anyway, some of the stretches in her book look a whole lot like rolkur. I found it interesting. Now, remember no one is on the horses back and the horse is putting himself in that position trying to get a carrot but, she does see a purpose in the position. You should definitely look her up.

carolprudm
Aug. 2, 2011, 08:45 PM
actually, I just found the video. I do not know much about western riding, so can someone please explain what kind of bits are used?

Thanks
Hard to know what CS was using in the video but he sells some pretty darn harsh spade bits
http://trainingtack.com/bits.htm

questomatic
Aug. 2, 2011, 09:11 PM
Here's the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=en_90D5TOKA

Gag.

MySparrow
Aug. 2, 2011, 09:48 PM
BTW, I haven't been able to find any studies on the biomechanics of movements used in western disciplines. If there are any out there please point me to them. I need that information.

I think that Dr. Molly Nicodemus at Mississippi State has done a lot of work in this area.

longride1
Aug. 3, 2011, 07:42 AM
Thanks. I'll look her up. This has been an interesting thread.

fish
Aug. 3, 2011, 08:04 AM
Yes, but as someone with a science backround I cringed at the use of the word "proved". Harm is loosely defined and the empirical evidence points in both directions.

It's like porn or the recent Casey Anthony trial. Yeah we may know porn or harm or damages or guilt when we see it but can we define or proove it.

As someone with an English (teaching) background, I also cringed at the use of "proved." Nothing like a word choice that declares prejudice prior to doing research to undermine a project before it's even begun!

I hope/trust that the OP learned that important lesson (as well as a great deal about rolkur), as a result of posting here;)

carolprudm
Aug. 3, 2011, 08:06 AM
The photo posted on the epona website of the western rider with his horse's head bent around and deep is VERY typical of western training, no matter what level. So is the position of the rider....looking around to see who's watching.

Again, it's not supposed to be about the position of the horse's head. It's the force used to put it there. You can clearly see the rider yanking the horse as hard as he can, standing in the stirrups to yank. THAT is Rollkur.

The problem is that everyone seems to use the word Rollkur to define the position of the horse's head when he is schooling and then saying that anyone who rides a horse with his head and neck in LDR position uses Rollkur. LDR and Rollkur are not the same thing nor should they be confused. One carries the implication of abuse. So when someone says Anky uses Rollkur, they are implying that she uses abusive training methods, when in fact, she does not (though she does use LDR and has retired most, if not all, of her top international GP horses sound in their late teens).

So before you write a paper on the negative effects of rollkur, make sure you understand the FEI definition of it and how it differs from simply riding the horse LDR. As I recall, the FEI hired a veterinary panel to investigate the ethical implications of riding horses in LDR and they concluded that there is nothing harmful in riding horses in such a way (this was back when the outrage over riding horses in LDR started ).
compare
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMqS1DTShNE&feature=related
with
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poFr5Xz5uU0

siegi b.
Aug. 3, 2011, 08:18 AM
So in answer to the OP's question, isn't it safe to say that no, it hasn't been proven by a vet or other folks that rollkur is damaging to horses?

What has been proven ad nauseum is that rollkur is very hard to define and means different things to different people.

Just my opinion....

wendy
Aug. 3, 2011, 10:04 AM
so maybe we need to move beyond rollkur and try to define WHY certain riding methods make observers cringe and other riding methods don't?

Amazone
Aug. 3, 2011, 11:51 AM
www.scienceofmotion.com -it's worth a look.

Liz
Aug. 3, 2011, 12:35 PM
For the most part I do not like to participate in the rolkur debate. I read this thread on a whim and suggested the op check out Dr. Hillery Clayton. After reading the thread I went ahead and checked out the reining video. I have to say, I can not understand how anyone could watch that video and not call it abuse. Wow. What are we doing to our horses? You know that poor mare had a spade bit in her mouth. That last slide, the man is standing up, spuring her and jerking on her face with all his might. Makes dressage look nice. Not to hijack the thread, just felt bad for the poor mare.

alicen
Aug. 3, 2011, 12:50 PM
So, DDQ, what exactly is the assignment? Research paper? Persuasive argument?

DutchDressageQueen
Aug. 3, 2011, 02:34 PM
It is really a mix between research and persuasive. I have to research about the topic, then make a claim, and present it.

Mardi
Aug. 3, 2011, 11:09 PM
to those who have said it's not just about the horse's head position, it's the force that put it there...also factor in the amount of time the head is kept there.

MassageLady
Aug. 5, 2011, 01:45 PM
So when someone says Anky uses Rollkur, they are implying that she uses abusive training methods, when in fact, she does not (though she does use LDR and has retired most, if not all, of her top international GP horses sound in their late teens).

So before you write a paper on the negative effects of rollkur, make sure you understand the FEI definition of it and how it differs from simply riding the horse LDR. As I recall, the FEI hired a veterinary panel to investigate the ethical implications of riding horses in LDR and they concluded that there is nothing harmful in riding horses in such a way (this was back when the outrage over riding horses in LDR started ).

You're kidding right?
Don't know about you-but this 'panel' obviously is drinking something, or not watching how she rides, or other using this method! And why use it?? Why would you think it's ok to treat an animal this way??
You can check this out too...by Dr. Nancy Nicholson, who has done a ton of research on this.
http://midwestnha.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/hyoid_gutteralpouches21.jpg
http://midwestnha.wordpress.com/rollkur/

Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
Aug. 5, 2011, 04:51 PM
Really? Still? I guess PS and partners paid a good bit for Toto to save him from the "rollkur"he had been put through. Not because his core was so strong, or his soundness and rideability. Thank goodness for the benevolence of rich horsemen and horsewomen! I bet Peters sponsers bought Ravel to save him from Gals training methods as well. BTW. Would any of you have wanted to hack Salinero before Anky had ridden him a couple years? I hear he was one tough POW! At the end if you dont like the way these people ride, dont ride that way. If you could I mean.

DutchDressageQueen
Aug. 5, 2011, 05:38 PM
Is there any way I can close this thread? I have gotten enough information.

Mardi
Aug. 6, 2011, 12:01 AM
Would any of you have wanted to hack Salinero before Anky had ridden him a couple years? I hear he was one tough POW!

Salinero was a prisoner of war ?

MassageLady
May. 4, 2012, 02:59 PM
Really? Still? I guess PS and partners paid a good bit for Toto to save him from the "rollkur"he had been put through. Not because his core was so strong, or his soundness and rideability. Thank goodness for the benevolence of rich horsemen and horsewomen! I bet Peters sponsers bought Ravel to save him from Gals training methods as well. BTW. Would any of you have wanted to hack Salinero before Anky had ridden him a couple years? I hear he was one tough POW! At the end if you dont like the way these people ride, dont ride that way. If you could I mean.:lol::lol::lol: This cracked me up-like I would even WANT to ride like that? I have too much respect for my horses welfare than to treat them like this.:no:

Bluey
May. 4, 2012, 03:20 PM
:lol::lol::lol: This cracked me up-like I would even WANT to ride like that? I have too much respect for my horses welfare than to treat them like this.:no:

You do realize that there are right now whole groups of people fighting seriously to eliminate any use of horses, especially any riding of horses, because they consider that to be extremely abusive to them?

Yes, these questions of what is acceptable training and what abuse, some of them are not as clear cut as we think.

A bit of perspective, looking at the big picture, may expand horizons here.:yes:

MassageLady
May. 4, 2012, 03:31 PM
Gee thanks for that little bit of 'smack down' at the end of that Bluey-but seriously- I have looked at the big picture-been riding for 25yrs now, and NEVER EVER felt the need to ride this way. You are going to the extreme here in your post. If riding in this manner is going to 'expand my horizons', then perhaps I should start smoking crack to in order to keep myself more open minded to how others think. :)

Bluey
May. 4, 2012, 04:14 PM
Gee thanks for that little bit of 'smack down' at the end of that Bluey-but seriously- I have looked at the big picture-been riding for 25yrs now, and NEVER EVER felt the need to ride this way. You are going to the extreme here in your post. If riding in this manner is going to 'expand my horizons', then perhaps I should start smoking crack to in order to keep myself more open minded to how others think. :)


That last phrase was a separate thought, in general, advice for all, myself included.
Sorry it came thru as directed to anyone in particular.:(

I too don't like rollkur, don't see any need to ride like that, but I don't think RK is in itself other than one more training technique and as such, subject to the one applying it, not inherently abusive and needing banning, as so many are wanting to do.

THAT is what I meant, just evidently didn't come across.

There is plenty I don't like that we do with horses, that I would not do, but I would not impose my opinion on others, not if I expect others to respect what I want to do.

That is what laws and rules are for, they set some parameters and let us live and let live within them.
Those laws also permit us to make changes where needed.
I don't think we need to ban RK, or call those that use it abusers just because they use RK.

Just my opinion on this, just as you stated yours.

JSjumper
May. 4, 2012, 04:23 PM
Is there any way I can close this thread? I have gotten enough information.

...Seriously?

Velvet
May. 4, 2012, 04:25 PM
Who resurrected this thread? Oy.

ideayoda
May. 4, 2012, 04:33 PM
Use google scholar http://scholar.google.com/ ..... there are MANY studies listed there on the topic, each slightly different. Some will give you only the abstract and some the entire study, and some require a log in for more than the thesis.

ThreeFigs
May. 5, 2012, 11:22 AM
DDS, if you've gotten enough information, just finish your paper and let it go. You can't control what other COTHers will do with the topic you started!

RK is red meat to this crowd.

carolprudm
May. 5, 2012, 11:45 AM
Is there any way I can close this thread? I have gotten enough information.

The internet in general and COTH in particular don't work that way. Once you post a question in an open forum you have no control over the responses

LanceBehind
May. 6, 2012, 06:02 PM
Is there any way I can close this thread? I have gotten enough information.

Now you have enough information you can start working for the FEI. Because they are still working on collecting enough information, but first have to find a budget of 25 million dollar.

SnicklefritzG
May. 6, 2012, 11:17 PM
My thesis advisor used to have this saying "believing is seeing", meaning that you have to be careful when reviewing your data because sometimes you see what you want to see.


Rollkur is controversial enough that you'll have to be careful about what you read.

belgianWBLuver
May. 7, 2012, 12:54 PM
Now you have enough information you can start working for the FEI. Because they are still working on collecting enough information, but first have to find a budget of 25 million dollar.
:lol::lol::lol:
Here is another link on Rollkur/LDR- Dr. Gerd Heuschmann

http://www.gerdheuschmann.com/bdp.html

Kinda sums it up

From a groom's perspective - whilst I was a working student back in the 90's - I did 2 stays one at a german competition barn and another at a french competition barn; both employed the LDR technique in schooling practise on a regular basis.
The horses needed regular deep massage and chiropratic care; their backs, necks and hind ends were sensitive to the touch, palpation and grooming. Girthing them was hazardous as they would resist and try to bite, one of them rearing. Enough said in my mind...
While I didn't have the nerve to outwardly discuss or object to these practises givin my "lowly position", I did leave after only a few weeks at each place.

ideayoda
May. 7, 2012, 01:13 PM
the newest article: http://steckenpferd.antville.org/static/steckenpferd/files/St%20Georg%20August%20Seiten%2052%20und%2053.pdf

belgianWBLuver
May. 7, 2012, 01:19 PM
the newest article: http://steckenpferd.antville.org/static/steckenpferd/files/St%20Georg%20August%20Seiten%2052%20und%2053.pdf

UGH!! brings back ugly memories - Thanks for the link Idea!!
I've been around the block a few times but this still makes me squirm...

Bluey
May. 7, 2012, 03:41 PM
:lol::lol::lol:
Here is another link on Rollkur/LDR- Dr. Gerd Heuschmann

http://www.gerdheuschmann.com/bdp.html

Kinda sums it up

From a groom's perspective - whilst I was a working student back in the 90's - I did 2 stays one at a german competition barn and another at a french competition barn; both employed the LDR technique in schooling practise on a regular basis.
The horses needed regular deep massage and chiropratic care; their backs, necks and hind ends were sensitive to the touch, palpation and grooming. Girthing them was hazardous as they would resist and try to bite, one of them rearing. Enough said in my mind...
While I didn't have the nerve to outwardly discuss or object to these practises givin my "lowly position", I did leave after only a few weeks at each place.

You do realize that in some barns and under some trainers, over the years, even many years before anyone even heard of RK, there are some horses and some whole barns where some horses become cranky and sore, just as there are some barns they don't?
Happened in all kinds of barns, race barns also, under some trainers and not so much others, under some grooms and not others.

I would not say the sore horses you saw was because, the horror, someone was using RK for some of the training.
To state that is a bit out there, really.
There may have been other barns where the trainers used RK and the horses, surprise, may not have been sore.

As someone said, when you are looking for something, you seem to see that everywhere.
When you don't like RK, you can only see and imagine all that is bad being because of RK.

belgianWBLuver
May. 7, 2012, 04:03 PM
You do realize that in some barns and under some trainers, over the years, even many years before anyone even heard of RK, there are some horses and some whole barns where some horses become cranky and sore, just as there are some barns they don't?
Happened in all kinds of barns, race barns also, under some trainers and not so much others, under some grooms and not others.

I would not say the sore horses you saw was because, the horror, someone was using RK for some of the training.
To state that is a bit out there, really.
There may have been other barns where the trainers used RK and the horses, surprise, may not have been sore.

As someone said, when you are looking for something, you seem to see that everywhere.
When you don't like RK, you can only see and imagine all that is bad being because of RK.

Ah Provacateur!!:lol:

And... After having worked in 7 different barns throughout Europe, this experience allows one to make some pretty sound opinions - not opinions that are "a bit out there" as it were. No matter what is said in this thread and by whom, I will always be against the practise of LDR/RK period speaking from a very up close and personal experience as a professional groom.

Bluey
May. 7, 2012, 04:21 PM
Ah Provacateur!!:lol:

And... After having worked in 7 different barns throughout Europe, this experience allows one to make some pretty sound opinions - not opinions that are "a bit out there" as it were. No matter what is said in this thread and by whom, I will always be against the practise of LDR/RK period speaking from a very up close and personal experience as a professional groom.

I may have topped your number of barns I have worked in Europe, one mine.;)

Yes, I still think you really can't say "horses were sore because someone used RK".;)

If you really have that much experience, you ought to know better what all a horse may be sore or not from all a horse does.
You can't isolate if RK alone was why, not when the same can be said, from working in barns before RK, that some more horses in some barns tended to come up more sore than they did in others.:yes:

belgianWBLuver
May. 7, 2012, 04:28 PM
I may have topped your number of barns I have worked in Europe, one mine.;)

Yes, I still think you really can't say "horses were sore because someone used RK".;)

If you really have that much experience, you ought to know better what all a horse may be sore or not from all a horse does.
You can't isolate if RK alone was why, not when the same can be said, from working in barns before RK, that some more horses in some barns tended to come up more sore than they did in others.:yes:

So, Chere Bluey, are you an advocate for LDR/RK?

Bluey
May. 7, 2012, 05:24 PM
So, Chere Bluey, are you an advocate for LDR/RK?

No and have stated so many times, not the way I was trained, not the way I have ever trained.

I am an advocate of what makes sense and it doesn't make sense to make a witch hunt out of anyone that chooses to use RK.

There is plenty I don't like that others do, but it is their horses, their training, not for me to say how others should train or go hunt them down if they don't do what I say.
I object to that greatly.

I think no matter how you train, there will be some that is good, some better and some misused.

I think RK is just one more training tool in horse training, some prefer to use it, use it more or less, others don't, all ok, to each it's own.

I was a gymnast and I know about training hard and hyperflexion and how it works and doesn't and I see how for some, with some horses, at some time, it would be one way to achieve what they want.

Not any different than some like to use, even overuse draw reins, I don't use them, but that doesn't mean I will hunt anyone that uses them and insult them because of it.

I think it is disgraceful that some have taken this to a personal level of wanting to turn the world against some trainers because of how they choose to train, that is very poor sportmanship.

To say I don't like RK because of this and that, I train this and that other way, debate this, is the professional way to give an opinion.

To make a crusade against some training technique that is not abusive, watch the video and find fault there and become famous because of a certain following from it, not very professional.

Also, we have all those outside the horse world that watch the group hounding others as they are doing with glee, one more coffin in our rights to use horses, one more line crossed from use to now calling RK abuse.

RK is no more abuse than just getting on a horse's back and riding him, that also is not without deleterious consequences to the horse's body, but it is accepted that we do it.
Keep pushing those fine lines further and further and riding itself will equal abuse.:(

MassageLady
May. 8, 2012, 12:40 AM
RK is no more abuse than just getting on a horse's back and riding him, that also is not without deleterious consequences to the horse's body, but it is accepted that we do it.
Keep pushing those fine lines further and further and riding itself will equal abuse
This is simply not true, if you ride correctly and allow the horse to build muscles, build topline and work correctly-it isn't abuse, whereas RK is. It seriously damages the nuchal ligament...can you honestly say it's ok for the horse not to be able to breathe?

I think it is disgraceful that some have taken this to a personal level of wanting to turn the world against some trainers because of how they choose to train, that is very poor sportmanship.

I find it disgraceful that these trainers have gone to 'training' their horses in this poor manner. That's what I find to be poor sportsmanship. I've also seen many WP trainers and reining trainers that continuously 'jerk and spur' the horse until they get the horse so beat down there is no life left in the poor animal. Is that ok too?? I don't think so---again, that is poor sportsmanship

nhwr
May. 8, 2012, 01:18 AM
Studies trying to detect stress in rollkured horses have failed to yield any results that show they are any more stressed than pleasure horses. In fact, there is some data (http://www.equinescienceupdate.co.uk/rollkur.htm) that suggests rollkur is actually relaxing to elite horses trained in this manner. There is nothing but the conjecture of fanatics to suggest that horses in rollkur have trouble breathing.

More information about it here (http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=19699).

Some additional findings;
"this controversial position is probably no more harmful than the standard vertical head position required in dressage competitions",
"hyperflexion actually showed improved range of motion in the horses' backs",

"while the position itself might not be dangerous, the training method used to obtain the position certainly could be: "(Hyperflexion) may be useful in the hands of a professional. It may be very harmful in the hands of a nonprofessional"

IOW, bad riding (of any kind) may be detrimental to the horse.

dragonharte8
May. 8, 2012, 02:59 AM
Applied Animal Behaviour Science
journal homepage: www.elsevier.com/locate/applanim

Impact of riding in a coercively obtained Rollkur posture on
welfare and fear of performance horses
Uta Ulrike von Borstel a,b,*, Ian James Heatly Duncan a, Anna Kate Shoveller a, Katrina Merkies d, Linda Jane Keeling b, Suzanne Theresa Millman c

5. Conclusions
The present study demonstrates that horses show
higher levels of discomfort when ridden in a coercively
obtained Rollkur posture compared to regular poll flexion,
and that they will avoid being ridden in Rollkur if given the
chance. Given the potential negative impact on rider safety
and welfare of the horse as demonstrated in the present
study, and for want of clear scientific evidence of any
beneficial effects, it is suggested that Rollkur should not be
practiced in a coercive manner.

alicen
May. 8, 2012, 06:04 AM
Applied Animal Behaviour Science
journal homepage: www.elsevier.com/locate/applanim (http://www.elsevier.com/locate/applanim)

... it is suggested that Rollkur should not be
practiced in a coercive manner

So they "suggest" that Rollkur can be practised in a non-coercive manner.

Bluey
May. 8, 2012, 07:32 AM
This is simply not true, if you ride correctly and allow the horse to build muscles, build topline and work correctly-it isn't abuse, whereas RK is. It seriously damages the nuchal ligament...can you honestly say it's ok for the horse not to be able to breathe?

I find it disgraceful that these trainers have gone to 'training' their horses in this poor manner. That's what I find to be poor sportsmanship. I've also seen many WP trainers and reining trainers that continuously 'jerk and spur' the horse until they get the horse so beat down there is no life left in the poor animal. Is that ok too?? I don't think so---again, that is poor sportsmanship

That is your opinion, but that we have an opinion doesn't give us the right to hound others and try to ruin their horse training business because we don't agree how they train.

Have those that object EVER trained hard to achieve the top of some physical activity, do they understand what it takes, what really training seriously is?
We can cruise thru our lives doing little physically, but we won't do other than mediocre efforts.
When you train seriously, it is hard and RK may fit for some trainers, used properly.
Evidently it is not harmful, their horses are living long and healthy and sound, just like others not trained thru RK.

Sure, you can use any technique training where you overuse and that will have consequences, like overlonging to tire a horse one example.
Still, no one goes around taking videos of trainers longing horses and writing about how this or the other trainer is in their opinion overlonging and how abusive that is, organize ban overlonging groups and write books about overlonging.

I think that witch hunt mentality fomented by the internet is what is shameful and those that push it should be called on it.
The witch hunt on trainers that may have or are using RK is more of a reason to call that abuse than RK itself is, as calling the video presented here "RK abuse!"
Give me a break!

There is enough real abuse out there, goo hunt that out.

ThreeFigs
May. 8, 2012, 09:11 AM
So, Chere Bluey, are you an advocate for LDR/RK?

This is a disgraceful ploy used by RKphobes.

Much like the question, "When did you stop beating your wife?"

LDR and RK are not the same, and as others have stated, it's the use of force that makes it wrong, not the posture itself.

Lots of horses will RK themselves when scratching an itch or doing carrot stretches.

Naturally this thread would descend into a train wreck, given enough time...

Velvet
May. 8, 2012, 10:30 AM
Actually, LDR is just the new name they've put on rollkur to make it more acceptable. They've gone from long and low to deep, and in the case of people like Sjef, that means rollkur/hyperflexion. It's semantics. It's not truly having a horse coming up over the back in a lower frame, which is acceptable. They've taken the label and are misusing it to cover up RK.

suzy
May. 8, 2012, 02:05 PM
Kudos to ThreeFigs, Bluey, and NHWR.

There is no proof--or strong evidence for that matter--that rollkur or LDR are harmful to a horse per se. However, any technique or piece of equipment used incorrectly can cause great harm.

MassageLady, your argument particularly frightens me. You give whackjobs like PETA fuel for their witch hunt and their efforts to prevent us from using horses for any activity.

As for the original poster, I think your paper would be of greater interest if you focused on the controversy caused by this topic rather than the actual technique. An interesting comparison you could make would be between rollkur and the Salem witch hunts. And, I am not saying this tongue in cheek. I'm quite serious. Of course, it will involve the added research into the Salem witch hunts, but I think you'll find it really interesting.

DonRobertoRollkurista
May. 8, 2012, 07:32 PM
Bravo.

MelantheLLC
May. 8, 2012, 07:37 PM
You guys do realize the OP is a year old? :lol:

Seems to have brought some of our more decrepit banned posters out of the woodwork, too. :eek:

suzy
May. 8, 2012, 09:42 PM
In my whiniest voice...I may be decrepit, but I'm not banned (yet). ;)

suzy
May. 9, 2012, 09:49 AM
So they "suggest" that Rollkur can be practised in a non-coercive manner.


I can't read the article you are referring to, but I can say that rollkur/LDR can be practiced in a non-coercive manner with fit, supple horses who are good in the bridle. I can easily put my horse in an LDR position with very light manipulations of the bit and by closing my legs around him. I don't use this often but find it really helpful for adding expression to the gaits. A few strides in this position encourages the horse to lift his back even more and become softer over his entire topline. When you ride him back "up" into a conventional outline, he will swing much more expressively through his back.

If the horse is being manually hauled into and held in this outline, than that is NOT a good thing. When my horse is LDR, I can give on both reins, and he will stay there until I ask him to come back up. No force necessary. However, I don't believe this is a suitable technique for a green or unfit horse.

MassageLady
May. 9, 2012, 11:26 AM
I can't read the article you are referring to, but I can say that rollkur/LDR can be practiced in a non-coercive manner with fit, supple horses who are good in the bridle.
Why would you want to teach the horse to go BTV? and the only way to do it, is to take more rein and be heavy in the hand.

A few strides in this position encourages the horse to lift his back even more and become softer over his entire topline. When you ride him back "up" into a conventional outline, he will swing much more expressively through his back.

Studies have proven that it actually doesn't help with topline or the hind end.
http://midwestnha.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/rollkur-equine-back.jpg

suzy
May. 9, 2012, 02:49 PM
Aha, I see where the disconnect is for you massagelady. I do not use LDR or rollkur to "teach the horse to go BTV." There is no value in that IMO, and I think many who use the technique would agree. I am not sure why you think it encourages the horse to be heavier, but IME it actually makes my horse lighter. It encourages the horse to become longitudinally more supple. When I ask him to come back to an uphill posture, I find that he is much more off his hind legs which increases his expression from back to front and makes him softer in the bridle.

If you reread my paragraph in my previous post that starts “A few strides in this position…”, you will see that I do not say or imply that it improves the topline or hind end. Improving the topline and hind end involves years and years of progressive strength training. I use LDR to get the horse to “release” his topline so that when I ride him back up, he is freer and more expressive. Perhaps some people do think it strengthens the horse, but I would have to disagree based on my own experience. I have found that the horse has to be strong to begin with to benefit from LDR. I am also not sure how it benefits a horse to keep the horse in that position for more than 4-5 strides. Again OPMMV.

MassageLady
May. 9, 2012, 03:08 PM
Well..IME this does absolutely no good to the horse, no matter how few strides it is-FORWARD AND DOWN, is what should be used to get the horse to raise their back and go onto the bit-NEVER back and up.

suzy
May. 9, 2012, 03:20 PM
What is your experience that demonstrates LDR does no good? Did you try it and it harmed your horse? Was the person teaching you not experienced in this technique which resulted in problems for you?

There is a lot of bad training and misinformation out there, so I do understand the reluctance of some people to venture into uncharted (for them) territory. And they shouldn't be fooling around with things they don't understand.

However, for the more experienced riders who intend to move up through the levels on a variety of horses, it is important to maintain something of an open mind and to get out of our comfort zone. In my experience in all areas of my life (education, job, relationships, etc.), I have only excelled when I pushed myself to do more, try more, experiment more. It can be very uncomfortable but inevitably it is very rewarding.

But this way of thinking/acting is definitely not for a lot of people. I get that. I love the journey but I am also goal oriented. However, my journey to GP could end up being the goal. ;)

Manni01
May. 9, 2012, 04:32 PM
I´m not a vet, just a long time rider (not up to GP level, but lucky enough to have had some schoolmasterhorses, which enabled me to ride most of the sequences...)

When I was around 19 I owned a very talented young horse, which was boarded at a stable with a GP Trainer. I had lessons 3 times a week and the Trainer (probably not) was supposed to ride the horse the other days...

We bought this horse as a 3 year old just backed and rode it for ourselves for about a year. He was quite a nice willing guy. Then we changed to this boarding stable because everybody complemented about his talent....

After some weeks already I felt that he was very tight on one rein... The longer he was there the more I got the impression that he never ever relaxed any more. Of course it was expected of me that I had short reins with a stable connection. A very common command was to bend him fast first to one side, then to the other.
I was a willing student so I did everything, because I believed this was the way to the top......

The longer I was in this stable, the less fun I had (and IMO my horse had) He started to rear, got tighter and tighter and I had to bend him nearly all the time in order to get anything achieved... The trainer told me that I wasn´t doing my aids consistent enough and that he was doing much better with him. Then he started to do the flying changes, which made everything more complicated for me. Because every time I wanted to ride any diagonals the horse went crazy and out of control.

You have to consider at that time I rode for 13 years already, had my "silbernes Abzeichen" and was sucessful with young horses as well as up to 2nd level.
But I had never experienced anything like this before....
At this time I thought, it was only the horse... There was another horse of the same age in that stable. He was ridden solely by the trainer. Usually in shows, he won and our horse was placed.. with 7 years he did his first S-level shows....

By that time I had left this stable. I was either ready to give up riding completely or change something....... The whole thing turned out to become crueler every day. My horse had reguarly a bloody mouth (skin was too sensitive...) Also there were spurholes on his side (wintercoat is also more sensitive and he was a chestnut....)
Another problem were my parents who put more trust in the trainer than in me.

So finally they sold him the horse (rather cheap, because he was so difficult) and I got another horse which I moved to another stable.
The other horse in the stable quit to cooperate with 7 years (the owner was totally shocked when this happened, it was completely unexpected for him...) My horse was obviously tougher, he made it to GP level......

This were the beginnings of Rollkur. At that time I figured out that for me this is not the right method...
Since then I´m very very sensitive on this topic. I´m sure that I´m not a good rider. Maybe this is the reason why I wasn´t able to pull enough to make it work for me.....

But because I´m a weak rider I need a horse which is cooperating. And this LDR does IMO not produce cooperating horses...
By the way my better show sucess I had later on with riding the conventional way with a light connection to the mouth, although I never had a horse with this quality again......

ideayoda
May. 9, 2012, 05:10 PM
.... (RK/LDR makes the horse more)off his hind legs which increases his expression from back to front and makes him softer in the bridle. IF it makes the horse 'softer in the bridle' then why are the curbs of such horses always torqued, and why is there no allowing for self carriage (uberstreichen)????

Btw I have had horses from the masterworkers of RK, they are rather like riding mannequins, and do not have the hallmarks of what the rules/directives suggest: i.e. cannot chew fdo (they go down/closed), show tensioned trots rather than relaxation (hence passage more than piaffe), go quicker rather than longer in strides. Takes a while to install traditional responses and get a mobile jaw.

ThreeFigs
May. 9, 2012, 05:26 PM
What you describe Manni01 is very sad and a disgraceful example of forced riding. This is true (forced) Rollkur.

What Suzy and others are trying to describe is a brief foray into LDR to aid the horse in suppleness and expression. One does not hold the horse or force the horse into this position for long periods of time. That WOULD be counterproductive, as Manni01 knows.

What troubles me about these discussions is, rationality flies out the window as soon as someone whispers "LDR". There are degrees of "low". There are degrees of "down", and there are degrees of "round". We see those degrees displayed in free walks and stretchy trots.

Correctly applied use of LDR is NOT forced, it is soft and light and easy for the horse. I used the technique to rehab my gelding's injured back when I bought him. (The injury occurred before I bought him and it's what ended his budding jumping career.) We did lots of stretches, slow trots in a mild LDR, lots of walking and then trotting up and down hills to strengthen his back. And cavalletti grids. It took a year of careful work to guarantee the health and soundness of his back.

He's now going Third Level. Where he used to be atrophied, he now has fantastic muscles over his quarters and loins. He uses his rear end effectively now, where before he quite literally dragged his rear end around and had the squared off toes to prove it. We no longer need LDR -- that was a brief phase in the beginning of his rehabilitation.

I've had many discussions, some rather heated, with folks over the years about my supposed use of "RK" (actually what I call LDR -- there was NEVER any force used on this gelding!) At NO time was my horse ridden in a frame like the awful Patrick Kittel "Pink Tongue" video shows. I'm in the camp with the RK haters here -- that was some ugly stuff!

My guy has been ridden as light, soft, forward and as correct as my middle-aged body allows. His current state of health is my best argument that LDR can be used for good, not evil!

Manni01
May. 9, 2012, 07:51 PM
What troubles me about these discussions is, rationality flies out the window as soon as someone whispers "LDR". There are degrees of "low". There are degrees of "down", and there are degrees of "round". We see those degrees displayed in free walks and stretchy trots.

Correctly applied use of LDR is NOT forced, it is soft and light and easy for the horse. I used the technique to rehab my gelding's injured back when I bought him. (The injury occurred before I bought him and it's what ended his budding jumping career.) We did lots of stretches, slow trots in a mild LDR, lots of walking and then trotting up and down hills to strengthen his back. And cavalletti grids. It took a year of careful work to guarantee the health and soundness of his back.

He's now going Third Level. Where he used to be atrophied, he now has fantastic muscles over his quarters and loins. He uses his rear end effectively now, where before he quite literally dragged his rear end around and had the squared off toes to prove it. We no longer need LDR -- that was a brief phase in the beginning of his rehabilitation.

Thank you very very much for your nice post! i love your story, which shows how many thoughts you put into the rehab of your horse and obviously it was rewarded too!! But really I think you are a little (thats how I would say it in German, no idea if its the same in English...) blue-eyed...
What you did is no LDR what you did is a beautiful correct supporting gymnastic which you did to your horse. And obviously it worked well too...
Really I do the same thing with my horses. Riding dressage is a little like Ballet, of course there has to be soft bending and stretching.

But the aims of LDR are a little different. IMO it is supposed to make the horse more and more expressive. And if it is not cooperating of course there is more and more force to develope that expression....
And this is exactly the point I worry about.....
In the classical way Dressage is like Gymnastics it develpes the horse to a true athlete....

In my understanding, the way to perfection has to be consistent and very very patient. It takes a long time to develope the muscles correctly and to get the horse to carry its body. (exactly like a primaballerina) And there are limits how far you get .

And I think the LDR pushes theses limits.... With help of the force of the LDR you may get the horse more expressive than with any other method. That is one reason why nobody thinks all the famous Teams in the past very good anymore. They were only able to get to a certain point, because the horse is an animal...

Now the LDR is able to push the horse further to its limits... Spectators love it because it is more spectacular....
If you don´t question what is behind this method, it just looks very impressive....

Maybe my experiences were just bad luck, and maybe my stable was the only one using the LDR in such a cruel way.
I really hope so for the horses...




I've had many discussions, some rather heated, with folks over the years about my supposed use of "RK" (actually what I call LDR -- there was NEVER any force used on this gelding!) At NO time was my horse ridden in a frame like the awful Patrick Kittel "Pink Tongue" video shows. I'm in the camp with the RK haters here -- that was some ugly stuff!

My guy has been ridden as light, soft, forward and as correct as my middle-aged body allows. His current state of health is my best argument that LDR can be used for good, not evil!

With this I agree totally, But I still think you are blue-eyed...

nhwr
May. 9, 2012, 08:15 PM
I have to giggle at some of the responses here.

I just want to point out that pretty color pictures aren't studies. Studies are published in peer reviewed scientific literature, not on wordpress blogs :winkgrin:

suzy
May. 9, 2012, 08:34 PM
IF it makes the horse 'softer in the bridle' then why are the curbs of such horses always torqued, and why is there no allowing for self carriage (uberstreichen)????

Btw I have had horses from the masterworkers of RK, they are rather like riding mannequins, and do not have the hallmarks of what the rules/directives suggest: i.e. cannot chew fdo (they go down/closed), show tensioned trots rather than relaxation (hence passage more than piaffe), go quicker rather than longer in strides. Takes a while to install traditional responses and get a mobile jaw.

Like everything else, there are good examples of LDR and bad. I can't explain why some people have the curb torqued backwards. In fact, I never practice LDR when I'm riding in the double; just in the snaffle. I also have no problem getting my horse to chew the reins and take longer strides. You are painting everyone with the same brush stroke. As far as it taking time to install the basics, I couldn't agree with you more. I also made the point earlier that LDR is IMO appropriate for a more advanced and well muscled horse.

nhwr
May. 9, 2012, 09:07 PM
When I see the curb rotating backwards it is usually due to the misplaced notion that a looser chain is kinder. A properly adjusted curb can't be torqued backwards.

Not every horse responds to every rider and their way of riding. Isn't that what we have witnessed with Rath and Totilas? IME, the biggest difference between dutch and german philosophies in the idea that the horse goes until told otherwise under the dutch method and the german method says to ride every stride. That difference right there tends to make dutch trained horses tense when put is a more german system. It takes a while for them to become desensitized.

ideayoda
May. 9, 2012, 09:08 PM
So, the 'leading purveyors' of LDR don't use it right, and their lack of ability to show lightness (other than torqued curbs) occurs why?

And why use ldr instead of fdo?

BaroquePony
May. 9, 2012, 10:14 PM
I basically learned "Cavalry Method" of riding for both dressage and jumping, and some XC.

I studied modern cavalry material, USPC, BHS, US Cavalry, Brig. Gen. Harry D. Chamberlain, Musseler, Podhasky, deKunffy, and that era of material.

Three decades after I had read, and reread, Brig. Gen. Harry D, Chamberlain's, Training Hunters, Jumpers, and Hacks, I heard reference to the book and Chamberlain that this was considered a "non-resistant" training method.

I would have to agree with that.

Chamberlain states, many times, that if the horse becomes nervous or upset when being introduced to something new, then go back to what you were doing that was relaxed and working.

The only exception to the ^ above was/is in the case of asking the horse to go forward. He does not like using a whip or a bat, but prefers the rider always wear blunt Prince of Wales spurs, and if the horse does not want to go forward (once he truly understands the forward aid) off of asking with the leg, then the rider can reenforce the leg immediately (one of his most important points).

But Chamberlain clearly states that if the horse gets upset, back up to what he was relaxed doing.

No tail wringing or swatting or swishing in aggitation.

nhwr
May. 9, 2012, 10:20 PM
I didn't say that the "leading purveyors" are doing it wrong, ideayoda. You did.

Post an example of what you are talking about and I'd be happy to comment.

SnicklefritzG
May. 9, 2012, 10:39 PM
"That difference right there tends to make dutch trained horses tense when put is a more german system. It takes a while for them to become desensitized."


I agree. We woudn't expect a human child to go from one value system to another without being thrown for a loop, so why should we expect more from our equine counterparts?

ThreeFigs
May. 10, 2012, 09:40 AM
Manni01, you'll just have to take my word for it. There were times in his rehab that his nose was pointing backwards. Not for long, but it was a function of his very weak and atrophied back. For the first two months or so of his rehab, my vet forbade me to go beyond a trot. When he was satisfied the horse was going in the right direction, we began canter. About that time he needed the so-called "deep" work less and less.

He did not stay in this "backwards" posture very long, but I often asked clinicians and my coach "where's his nose?", and they'd tell me. Really, it's a matter of how you're asking the horse. Asking or forcing. It's a big difference. My horse's attitude was never sour. He approaches his work with happiness. I think that's what points out the difference between LDR and forced RK.

But thanks for calling me "blue-eyed'! I really am blue-eyed!

Bluey
May. 10, 2012, 09:55 AM
I basically learned "Cavalry Method" of riding for both dressage and jumping, and some XC.

I studied modern cavalry material, USPC, BHS, US Cavalry, Brig. Gen. Harry D. Chamberlain, Musseler, Podhasky, deKunffy, and that era of material.

Three decades after I had read, and reread, Brig. Gen. Harry D, Chamberlain's, Training Hunters, Jumpers, and Hacks, I heard reference to the book and Chamberlain that this was considered a "non-resistant" training method.

I would have to agree with that.

Chamberlain states, many times, that if the horse becomes nervous or upset when being introduced to something new, then go back to what you were doing that was relaxed and working.

The only exception to the ^ above was/is in the case of asking the horse to go forward. He does not like using a whip or a bat, but prefers the rider always wear blunt Prince of Wales spurs, and if the horse does not want to go forward (once he truly understands the forward aid) off of asking with the leg, then the rider can reenforce the leg immediately (one of his most important points).

But Chamberlain clearly states that if the horse gets upset, back up to what he was relaxed doing.

No tail wringing or swatting or swishing in aggitation.

I tend to think that these comments may have been taken out of context, because spurs are to refine the leg aid, not to create impulsion and more forward, really.

Ever seen how a horse that the rider uses spurs more forcefully reacts?
It is pure biomechanics, poke your belly on the side and watch your leg on that side come forward and your middle fold a bit.

Horses are very differently built that humans, obviously, but watch a horse poked with a spur and you will see the automatic reaction is to move that hind leg up forward more than he would, that is an autonomic reaction.
On the other hand, if well trained to respond to leg/spur to move away from it, even move sideways from the spur at the same time.

I would definitely not want to use spurs to try to gain forward motion only, too fine a tool for the task.
If the leg aid is not enough, a crop behind the leg reinforces the leg without the autonomic reaction of a cue with a spur, to curl the hind leg under.

I would rather the less experienced trainers use a crop than, before they have a very educated leg and the concepts that go with it, use spurs indiscriminately to gain forward motion.

Forward motion has to be established long before the horse is ridden with active spurs.

I kind of think that quote may have been part of a whole different conversation than advising the use of spur to get the horse moving, as it seems there.:confused:

inspired
May. 10, 2012, 10:41 AM
Agree with Bluey about the use of the spurs....

Agree with nhwr about the curb chain....

In my real life experience, I find that the specific methodology of how the horse is trained is much less important than the feeling of the person doing the training. Regardless of what posture the horse is asked to assume or what exercises are used to get there, a horse trained with compassion will be happy, and a horse trained without compassion will not be.

I know a "classical master" that is widely regarded on these internet BBs that I would not allow near my horse with a 10 foot pole because I find that he lacks compassion in his application of classical technique. If I were more closed minded, I might assume that all "classical" training resulted in tense and unhappy horses, especially since I've seen more unhappy horses come from "classical" trainers than not.

I have used many different methods in my journey. I feel that most things have their place, and am much more concerned with the feeling and compassion of the rider, the veterinary care of the horse, and the saddle fit.

suzy
May. 10, 2012, 11:39 AM
So, the 'leading purveyors' of LDR don't use it right, and their lack of ability to show lightness (other than torqued curbs) occurs why?

And why use ldr instead of fdo?

As I said before (sounding like a broken record), some LDR is good, some is bad. That holds true for ALL training techniques and schools. There is some godawful “classical” out there and some that is lovely. The world is not nearly as black and white as you paint it. As for the torqued curbs, you need to go to the source to get that question answered. I can only conjecture based on pictures, and that’s not fair to the riders involved.

I use FDO to stretch my horse whereas I use LDR if I am working in collected gaits and may want to do some medium work and want to get greater expression/amplitude in my horse’s gaits. The horse is more closed up through his throatlatch and rounder through his body, so when I ask him to come up into the bridle, he is in the outline I want, which is compressed rather than stretched as in FDO.