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gjperry
Jul. 28, 2011, 03:27 PM
I address this comment to all those who have looked at and responded to the Video of my ride on Sundust that Mr. Buck posted. I am very willing to use my true name and yes, I was 81 when the Video was done last September. I am now 82 1/2, in excellent health and enjoying life and new challenges.
I have been amazed that most of you use pseudo names and that the comments have been so base-minded. Not only do you have the audacity to rip apart Mr. Buck, but you are insulting my judgement and ability and that of my Horse Partner, to distinguish between a charlatan and an honest knowledgeable person.
I ask you this question - Who among you can take a Western Pleasure Trained horse (head almost to the ground) or a young green horse and on the second lesson have that horse completely and constantly in proper frame and on the bit? I guarantee NONE of you can! You have been so busy criticizing Mr. Buck that you failed to acknowledge that Sundust came to us as a Western Trained Horse and that he had had only one, I reiterate, only one other session with Mr. Buck before the Video was shot. If you had really studied the Video,you would have been able to immediately see the difference in his head carriage and demeanor when we switched from the bitted bridle to the bitless bridle. Now after regular sessions, we have a totally different horse and we are totally different riders due to the way Mr. Buck educates the three of us. We understand how to use our bodies and the effect it has on Sundust. In the 30 years I have been riding, I have never been educated this way, not even by one who is considered a true top Classical Trainer. We will soon have a new Video to show the progress after 8 months.
I challenge all of you to take a series of sessions with Mr. Buck to evaluate what he has to offer you, the rider, and your horse. If none of you are willing to do this, then I suggest you refrain from the negative, abusive, tirade you post. Simply put, in the vernacular street language, "KNOCK IT OFF".
You are all missing out on the wondrous feeling of being one, being light and dancing with your mount without the usual pull, drive and push. You are also missing out on the soft response you receive back from your completely happy horse partner.

With Love, Kindness, Joy and Beauty to All
Gloria J. Perry

LarkspurCO
Jul. 28, 2011, 03:58 PM
I didn't see the thread about the video but is this the one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQMGbRv92YM

Your horse looks very uncomfortable there. Maybe it's the western pleasure training, but he looks very foot-sore. ETA: And very stiff.

Will the new video be posted here?

cuatx55
Jul. 28, 2011, 04:15 PM
Sorry, but that horse is sore, if in fact its the one in the video. That is not a happy horse. I am on the horses' side here. I would ethically not be riding that horse in this state.

I have no other opinions on this matter.

dalpal
Jul. 28, 2011, 04:22 PM
I'm at a loss as well......I have no idea who Mr. Buck is or what thread you are talking about...

But I don't know any classical trainer who would "have the horse on the bit on the second ride"...When I sent my horse to be saddle broke, the trainer spent 30 days doing long lining and groundwork before he ever stepped in the saddle.

And yes, your horse looks lame to me in that video...and very hollowed through his/her back. I would definitely recommend having your vet look at your horse.

Congrats on being active in your 80s...I can only hope I will be riding at that age.

meupatdoes
Jul. 28, 2011, 04:29 PM
Personally I think that any trainer remotely worth their salt could have any horse achieve that level of contact in one ride, WITHOUT needing the martingale.

I am also inherently suspicious of people who found the large majority of their training philosophy on "We Are The Only Ones Doing It Right; Everyone Else Is Doing It Wrong." It is not as if anyone is reinventing the training wheel. While there are unfortunately a great number of trainers in every discipline who only achieve the barest of competence, there are also a great number of trainers in every discipline who can competently, skillfully, and tactfully train a horse. The second somebody starts saying they are the ONLY ONE doing something correctly (and this is usually coupled with a startling lack of demonstration of any horse doing any kind of upper level work) I start to wonder what exactly is so very special about a horse trotting a mincy circle in a running martingale that everyone in the world should upend their training programs to emulate.

Imo the horse in the video is not sound for the work it is being asked to do.

While I am glad that an 80+ year old is enjoying horse back riding, I would still like to see some more consideration displayed for the soundness of the equine partner in this instance.

carolprudm
Jul. 28, 2011, 04:35 PM
I didn't see the thread about the video but is this the one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQMGbRv92YM

Your horse looks very uncomfortable there. Maybe it's the western pleasure training, but he looks very foot-sore. ETA: And very stiff.

Will the new video be posted here?
I see that that video was uploaded by dragonhart08. Could this be an alter for spirit horse?

Unfforgettable
Jul. 28, 2011, 04:38 PM
Dear Gloria,

First, kudos to you for choosing to enjoy your horse and I hope you have many more pleasurable years in the saddle. It's wonderful to see a rider enjoying the sport in their golden years.

However, it disappoints me that you choose to do the same thing you accuse so many here of....you insult the ability of many professionals here and claim they could never do for your horse what Mr. Buck (aka spirit horse) did.

***Editing to make clear that no trainer with any modicum of talent or horsemanship would find the methods used in the video to be acceptable or useful or correct.***

I promise you there are many trainers who could do it far better and more classically correct. Mr. Buck has earned his reputation here all by himself, and has yet to post any evidence that he can ride in anything resembling a balanced, classical seat either over fences or on the flat. The vast majority of his writings here prove his lack of knowledge, and rather than learn, he chooses to parrot things, but out of context and adding his spin.

Personally, I need to see a level of credentials and ability from someone before I'd ride with them or let them handle my horses...and I don't mean competition results. From what I've read and seen, I'd be glad to give Mr. Buck some lessons (gratis) but I see nothing that makes me want to do what he is doing.

Please don't misunderstand...I'm truly happy that you've found what you want in an instructor...but it is presumptuous of you to assume that he is someone who could be of any help to me or many others here.

Best wishes-
Sharon Potter
(Retired trainer, used to post under my real name until I requested it be changed due to my warnings about a horse molester potentially exposing my name and horses to retaliation)

lovey1121
Jul. 28, 2011, 04:39 PM
I see that that video was uploaded by dragonhart08. Could this be an alter for spirit horse?

It is.

arabiansrock
Jul. 28, 2011, 04:39 PM
Well, that horse is NOT consistently or completely "on the bit", his head is up, his back is dropped, and he is mincing.

BUT .. You are 82 and riding@!!!!! CONGRATULATIONS. SEriously, that is awesome.

If you are happy with Mr. Buck, that is great, but it doesn't look like my cup of tea.

gjperry
Jul. 28, 2011, 04:50 PM
Thank you all for your quick reply. Just to let you know, Sundust was not lame. He was check shortly before the Video by our vet, who is also certified to do acupuncture and chiropractic work on horses. He had a clean bill of health.

With Joy and Beauty,
Gloria J. Perry

mickeydoodle
Jul. 28, 2011, 04:55 PM
I did comment on your video, and I am so glad that you are happy and I want to be able to ride myself into the 80's. I took lessons with Violet Hopkins when she was still riding dressage and hosting the dressage instructors seminars in Michigan in her late 70's.

I am glad you like your instructor, but I agree with the above that any trainer worth their salt could have a horse much more consistently on the bit, forward, starting to bend in just one or two rides. Moreover, many instructors could teach it from the ground with the owner on the horse. Ms. Hopkins certainly could.

Bogey2
Jul. 28, 2011, 04:58 PM
Who among you can take a Western Pleasure Trained horse (head almost to the ground) or a young green horse and on the second lesson have that horse completely and constantly in proper frame and on the bit?

is that a B bit or a baucher bit?? no magic there though...don't buy the snake oil!:lol:

Anyway, congratulations on your riding!!! You are obviously a good sport!

lovey1121
Jul. 28, 2011, 05:00 PM
:DMiz Perry, I simply wish to say that it is awesome to see you riding at 82:D. Happy trails to you!

quietann
Jul. 28, 2011, 05:10 PM
Is Gloria for real, or just one of spirithorse's alters? I suppose I'll never know.

Looking at the video, I see a very kind rider but a horse who says "ouch!" every time it puts its right hind down. Would also wonder about why it's reaching so far under with that leg; something clearly hurts!

Tamara in TN
Jul. 28, 2011, 05:19 PM
I see that that video was uploaded by dragonhart08. Could this be an alter for spirit horse?

Equine myotherapist.
Inventor of 'Bitless Bridle' Spirit Bridle
dragonhart08

the same ??

Tamara

Tamara in TN
Jul. 28, 2011, 05:23 PM
A Bit About Me and my Horse(s)
I started riding when I was 52. Now I am 82 and still at it. I have been longing to learn true Classical French Dressage. My horse partner, Cathy Torlina and I own a wonderful 9 year old Quarter Horse Gelding named Royal Sundust out of a Barb line extending back to 1724. We are blessed to have Allan Buck as our educator. We use his Spirit Bridle and Spirit Yolk. He is teaching us to use individual muscles to cue as well as exercises to increase our horses ability to use his muscles. What fun and joy. Everything is light, light, light and in tune with our Boy. Yes, Allan buck knows exacting how to teach Classical French Dressage.

Tamara in TN
Jul. 28, 2011, 05:24 PM
On my own horse, Sundust and another horse Henry, I was told the hock were the problem. In both cases,upon checking the lumbar muscles, the horses dropped moving away. Deep message work corrected the problem & both moved freely afterward.

Posted by Gloria J. Perry on 11/24/2010

Tamara in TN
Jul. 28, 2011, 05:25 PM
http://www.harmoniousconnections.com/html/about_gloria.html

Tamara

manentail
Jul. 28, 2011, 05:39 PM
I'm at a loss as well......I have no idea who Mr. Buck is or what thread you are talking about...

But I don't know any classical trainer who would "have the horse on the bit on the second ride"...When I sent my horse to be saddle broke, the trainer spent 30 days doing long lining and groundwork before he ever stepped in the saddle.

And yes, your horse looks lame to me in that video...and very hollowed through his/her back. I would definitely recommend having your vet look at your horse.

Congrats on being active in your 80s...I can only hope I will be riding at that age.

In watching western pleasure competitions, it appears that the lame look and movement is what everyone is wanting. No clue why that would be desirable.

showidaho
Jul. 28, 2011, 06:16 PM
In watching western pleasure competitions, it appears that the lame look and movement is what everyone is wanting. No clue why that would be desirable.

I don't think this is a fair assertion...Do you know anything about western pleasure? Have you ever seen a nice, or world champion quality western pleasure horse? I'm sure there are plenty of negative assertions uneducated people could make after watching dressage too...The horse in the video doesn't look at all like a western pleasure horse, nor did I read anywhere that it is western pleasure trained, only 'western' trained. A horse can be lame in any discipline. Please try not to make sweeping accusations about an entire discipline, about which you don't ascribe to know a thing.

easyrider
Jul. 28, 2011, 06:17 PM
Gloria - If you open yourself up to public scrutiny, you open yourself up to public feedback.

You are certainly free to suggest that people either agree with your assessment, or take lessons from someone they consider a charlatan, or refrain from comment, but I wouldn't expect anyone to comply with any of those suggestions if you or your "trainer" are going to go around posting videos like that one.

The fact that you feel happy about your training doesn't make it correct, and the fact that you're 82 1/2 doesn't change that. I usually only post if I need help or think I can be helpful, but I'm going to make an exception here. Calling this Classical French Dressage is really pushing it. The emperor has no clothes. He really doesn't.

carolprudm
Jul. 28, 2011, 06:21 PM
Thank you all for your quick reply. Just to let you know, Sundust was not lame. He was check shortly before the Video by our vet, who is also certified to do acupuncture and chiropractic work on horses. He had a clean bill of health.

With Joy and Beauty,
Gloria J. Perry

I have my doubts that he is sound however you need to post to let him round instead of hollowing his back. While you are posting you need to develop steady hands to allow him to go FORWARD without jabbing him in the mouth at every step.

But great that you are riding. I'm 62 and hope to do a century ride on Sophie in 14 years

cuatx55
Jul. 28, 2011, 06:31 PM
Thank you all for your quick reply. Just to let you know, Sundust was not lame. He was check shortly before the Video by our vet, who is also certified to do acupuncture and chiropractic work on horses. He had a clean bill of health.

With Joy and Beauty,
Gloria J. Perry


Did you do X-rays???

Get a second opinion! That horse IS lame, as much as you don't/can't/won't see it. This isn't rocket science. I know many QH, and they do NOT move like this even the ones trained for WP. I suspect navicular....or something else foot related.

I don't get why people post like this----troll????

leilatigress
Jul. 28, 2011, 06:44 PM
If that was a professionally trained and finished Western Horse (2 rides ago) than I have a Butterfly farting Gypsy horse doing Grand Prix. He's hollow through the back, mincing like he's been quicked on all four feet and doing a fantastic impression of a giraffe. I'd also be willing to bet he's toeing out on the back left and right front.

However, KUDOS to being able to ride in your 80s and look pretty decent doing it.

carolprudm
Jul. 28, 2011, 06:48 PM
I don't get why people post like this----troll????
Yup or had to much koolaid

Tamara in TN
Jul. 28, 2011, 07:02 PM
If that was a professionally trained and finished Western Horse (2 rides ago) than I have a Butterfly farting Gypsy horse doing Grand Prix. He's hollow through the back, mincing like he's been quicked on all four feet and doing a fantastic impression of a giraffe. I'd also be willing to bet he's toeing out on the back left and right front.


I was reminded of these:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1iCQjwlyNs

Tamara

DutchDressageQueen
Jul. 28, 2011, 07:18 PM
If that was a professionally trained and finished Western Horse (2 rides ago) than I have a Butterfly farting Gypsy horse doing Grand Prix. He's hollow through the back, mincing like he's been quicked on all four feet and doing a fantastic impression of a giraffe. I'd also be willing to bet he's toeing out on the back left and right front.

However, KUDOS to being able to ride in your 80s and look pretty decent doing it.

:yes:

catosis
Jul. 28, 2011, 07:33 PM
Yup or had to much koolaid

Well, if its the kind of koolaid I am thinking of she would be posthumously posting by now :lol:

Unfforgettable
Jul. 28, 2011, 08:23 PM
I'm thrilled that you're riding....it's wonderful to see that age isn't stopping you from enjoying time in the saddle.

But please call it something other than dressage....and it is SO not French Classical dressage. Riding in a Baucher bit and in a dressage saddle is just tack. I'm hoping that the 8 months later video shows a big difference and a sound horse, because the old one is painful to watch.

If this is the best instruction you've had in 30 years....that is truly very, very sad.

NorCalDressage
Jul. 28, 2011, 08:44 PM
I see that that video was uploaded by dragonhart08. Could this be an alter for spirit horse?

OMFG!

I'm only 2 minutes into that video, but the commentary is freaking priceless!!!!!

DutchDressageQueen
Jul. 28, 2011, 09:16 PM
I'm only 2 minutes into that video, but the commentary is freaking priceless!!!!!

I know right! :lol:

mickeydoodle
Jul. 28, 2011, 10:40 PM
Ok, I admire that the rider is over 80 and still riding, but I have watched every minute of the video and I would submit the following comments:

1. In the first two minutes or so, the horse is ridden in a Boucher bit, with the contact bouncing, unsteady, and no forward impulsion. The walk and the trot are barely shuffles, with the hind print lacking at least 12" from tracking up. The rider deserves kudos for trucking along, with the instructor saying "great, good, etc" in the background and staying on this nice, gentle creature. Despite the "instructor" input, the horse is above the bit at all times, hollow, not bent, shuffling, and appears lame because he is dorking around with his head in the air, not paying much attention to what he is doing, as he has no leader to tell him what to do, despite the video audio. You and he are shuffling around a 20m circle.

2. Then, the instructor "changes the bridle" to a bitless bridle WITH A VERY VERY VERY TIGHT (!!!!!!) RUNNING MARTINGALE. Voila!!!!!!!!! the horse is now 'ON THE BIT" thanks to the cranked down noseband of the 'BITLESS" bridle. (OK, I KNOW THAT ALL CAPS MEANS SHOUTING, BUT CAN'T YOU SEE THAT THIS IS HOLDING THE HORSE'S HEAD DOWN?????????????????? THERE IS A LARGE "V" BETWEEN THE HAND AND THE NOSEBAND. The contact is just as inconsistent, bouncing, jabbing as before the bridle change, only now with the tight martingale (look at the "V" between the hand and the bit in 99% of that part of the video) The horse is broken at the third cervical vertibrae, it is behind the bit. Just take a look at the video with no sound. How is it in ANY WAY different from any Anky, etc, etc, etc, anyone whom your instructor has attacked along the way.

I will tell you the difference; he is proposing this crank the head down, nose in device for all and sundry- use the bitless bridle and the running martingale and you will .................not

Look at yourself and the horse critically, measure the amount of "over track" and "under track" for the gaits. Look closely at any video the USDF or USEF (not all can be in any one conspiracy- LOOK AT ALL

rant repeated, but essentially useless, why bother posting?

atlatl
Jul. 28, 2011, 11:58 PM
Actually, I have taken a Western Pleasure horse and successfully shown him at training level. He was consistently on the bit, thanks to having been propery started and trained. His speciality was the straight square halt. He never had the movement of a warmblood but was bombproof and a spectacular horse to learn on. I still miss him.

AlterBy
Jul. 29, 2011, 12:23 AM
I address this comment to all those who have looked at and responded to the Video of my ride on Sundust that Mr. Buck posted. I am very willing to use my true name and yes, I was 81 when the Video was done last September. I am now 82 1/2, in excellent health and enjoying life and new challenges.
I have been amazed that most of you use pseudo names and that the comments have been so base-minded. Not only do you have the audacity to rip apart Mr. Buck, but you are insulting my judgement and ability and that of my Horse Partner, to distinguish between a charlatan and an honest knowledgeable person.
I ask you this question - Who among you can take a Western Pleasure Trained horse (head almost to the ground) or a young green horse and on the second lesson have that horse
completely and constantly in proper frame and on the bit? I
guarantee NONE of you can! You have been so busy criticizing
Mr. Buck that you failed to acknowledge that Sundust came to
us as a Western Trained Horse and that he had had only one, I
reiterate, only one other session with Mr. Buck before the Video
was shot. If you had really studied the Video,you would have
been able to immediately see the difference in his head
carriage and demeanor when we switched from the bitted bridle
to the bitless bridle. Now after regular sessions, we have a
totally different horse and we are totally different riders due to
the way Mr. Buck educates the three of us. We understand how
to use our bodies and the effect it has on Sundust. In the 30
years I have been riding, I have never been educated this way,
not even by one who is considered a true top Classical Trainer.
We will soon have a new Video to show the progress after 8
months.
I challenge all of you to take a series of sessions with Mr. Buck to evaluate what he has to offer you, the rider, and your horse. If none of you are willing to do this, then I suggest you refrain from the negative, abusive, tirade you post. Simply put, in the
vernacular street language, "KNOCK IT OFF".
You are all missing out on the wondrous feeling of being one, being light and dancing with your mount without the usual pull, drive and push. You are also missing out on the soft response you receive back from your completely happy horse partner.

With Love, Kindness, Joy and Beauty to All
Gloria J. Perry

Just to keep it from vanishing...

ThreeFigs
Jul. 29, 2011, 12:39 AM
Dear Ms. Perry,

Bless you for riding and enjoying your horse at age 82!

However, scolding us for failing to recognize your "instructor's" genius is uncalled for. I would never subject my good horse to that man's theories.

Your horse, bless his patient and tolerant heart, is not "on the bit", he's trapped in a frame by the martingale. He looks unsound. Uncomfortable at the least. Your "instructor" should have you post ALL the time at trot to help your horse lift his back. And you, even at your advanced age, need to develop steadier hands. With or without a bit. Doesn't matter. The unsteadiness still translates to the horse's face.

Put down the glass of Koolaid!

ThreeFigs
Jul. 29, 2011, 12:41 AM
Thanks, Alterby. Yanno, come to think of it, that DOES sound a lot like our good pal, Spirithorse/Dragonharte8.

Perhaps he dictated it to her...

WBLover
Jul. 29, 2011, 10:03 AM
Gloria, I would also submit that your horse is NOT on the bit in EITHER one of those contraptions (the bit or the bitless bridle). He is protecting his mouth and back in both cases. I would also agree that you need to be posting the trot, and working on steady hands before you can even think about trying to get your horse on the bit. He CANNOT come round with his mouth being bounced off of and his back being pounded on.

Mr. Buck has been given you NO SUBSTANTIAL INSTRUCTION in the video. All he says to do is go around in figure eights, and feel this or feel that, and feel how great his bitless bridle is.

A good instructor would be working on YOU and your riding FIRST, not putting contraptions on your horse that will force it to LOOK like it's on the bit.

You look absolutely TERRIFIC for 82, and I would bet you are capable of doing a nice, balanced posting trot if you work on it and that your horse will thank you for.

I do commend you highly for getting out there and riding, but PLEASE, get a REAL instructor!

AlterBy
Jul. 29, 2011, 10:38 AM
Thanks, Alterby. Yanno, come to think of it, that DOES sound a lot like our good pal, Spirithorse/Dragonharte8.

Perhaps he dictated it to her...

It seems that she does exist for real...she has a website (I don't want to advertise someone who's claiming that Rev. Buck is a Classical Dressage trainer...irk)

But with all due respect to her age, please don't feed the troll.

ThreeFigs
Jul. 29, 2011, 11:02 AM
You're right. I'm done...

carolprudm
Jul. 29, 2011, 11:07 AM
It seems that she does exist for real...she has a website (I don't want to advertise someone who's claiming that Rev. Buck is a Classical Dressage trainer...irk)

But with all due respect to her age, please don't feed the troll.

There is indeed a person with that name. However we don't know if hte real Gloria is posting here. Spirit could have easily signed up in her name

ThreeFigs
Jul. 29, 2011, 11:37 AM
After all, he's got two usernames here. What's one more?

gjperry
Jul. 29, 2011, 12:55 PM
Thank you to all who posted.

To Quitann and few others: Yes, I am real; born in New York City in 1929. If you like, I would be delighted to have you visit me. Just let me know when.

To Lellatigrass: I never said or indicated Sundust was a finished Western Horse. We have his records form the American Quarter Horse Association. It shows his training was very basic.

Young Equestrian and Beasmom: Thank you for your humor!

Mickeydoodle: The Spirit Yolk as I call it (you call it martingle) is not at all tight. We rode him in a regular martingle, so we know the difference. If you ride Sundust in a tight nose band or tight martingle, you would soon know it in no uncertain terms that it is irritating and not to his liking. I do not understand your comment about "crank the head down" nose in device. What do you expect a horse to be like coming from 6 years of such a completely different discipline.
Also, I never claimed to be a well educated or high level Dressage rider.

WBLover: How little you know about what we have learned!

May all of you have a wonderful weekend coming up and may we all hear good news from Congress in D.C.

With Love, Kindness, Joy and Beauty,
Gloria Perry

carolprudm
Jul. 29, 2011, 01:27 PM
This is an Intro test on a quarter horse
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yWBL8koMrI

I picked it at random on youtube
PLEASE tell us you can see the dufference

WBLover
Jul. 29, 2011, 01:34 PM
WBLover: How little you know about what we have learned!

You are right, because I cannot see that you are learning anything if the video is indicative of a typical lesson with Mr. Buck.

esdressage
Jul. 29, 2011, 01:36 PM
When do you expect to have the "8 months later" video? Everybody is commenting on the initial video and quite correctly seeing many issues with it, but perhaps if your 8 months later video shows the tremendous improvement that has you so thrilled, we would all be able to congratulate rather than question your experience with your instructor.

Regardless of that, I'm thrilled to hear that you are enjoying time in the saddle at your age. I can only hope to be riding in my 80s as well! Best regards and happy trails to you.

Tamara in TN
Jul. 29, 2011, 01:39 PM
Mickeydoodle: The Spirit Yolk as I call it (you call it martingale) is not at all tight.

I think that's an egg...

a "yoke" is used on draft animals

Tamara

meupatdoes
Jul. 29, 2011, 01:46 PM
Mickeydoodle: The Spirit Yolk as I call it (you call it martingle) is not at all tight. We rode him in a regular martingle, so we know the difference. If you ride Sundust in a tight nose band or tight martingle, you would soon know it in no uncertain terms that it is irritating and not to his liking. I do not understand your comment about "crank the head down" nose in device. What do you expect a horse to be like coming from 6 years of such a completely different discipline.
Also, I never claimed to be a well educated or high level Dressage rider.

Gloria,

With all due respect, when there is a very noticeable "v" shape in the "spirit" aka German martingale, physics simply dictates that the ring of the martingale is exerting downward pressure simultaneously on the hands of the rider and the bit/whatever the reins are attached to on the horse's end.

If you pull down on the middle of a clothesline, you are exerting downward pressure on both ends of the clothesline. If one end of the clothesline happens to be attached to a horse's face, and you make a notable "v" in the clotheline... you do the math.


Secondly, this is what I expect a horse to go like "after several years being trained in a different discipline":
This horse came to me out of a 4-H home where he was ridden roughly twice a month by a child, before which he had received extensive western pleasure training. For the record it is a14.3 hh, 7/8th QH Appendix, extensively western pleasure bred.
His first ride went like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtMzR3Iz2jA); a week later he was going like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7stlCJI1PwQ&).

Note the absence of any "v" shapes in the reins.
Note as well that "the mince" disappears.


Same horse one year later (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFr8X8fdCYE&).

All results achieved sans "Spirit Bridle."

So no, your trainer is not the "only one" who can retrain a horse, as you claimed in your first post. And for the record I would expect those results from *anybody* who calls themself a professional. It is kindergarten for horses, not something only one person in the universe can do.

I do not understand why your trainer INSISTS on declaring to everyone that he is the only one doing it right, and everyone else is doing it completely wrong. It is wonderful that he is providing you with a learning experience that you find positive but this confrotational attitude of Spirithorse-Against-The-World and Spirithorse-Is-the-Only-One-With-"The-Secret" is just nonsense. He is not the only one in America who can trot a horse on a 20m circle without falling off.

In fact he seems to be unable to demonstrate any results with a horse or student other than the most basic of the basic walk/trot/canter and the occasional 10" jump. Which, again, is fine if that is what you want to do with your horse, but why the rest of the world is apparently supposed to stop everything they are doing and change their programs to emulate him is beyond me.

purplnurpl
Jul. 29, 2011, 02:54 PM
I ask you this question - Who among you can take a Western Pleasure Trained horse (head almost to the ground) and on the second lesson have that horse completely and constantly in proper frame and on the bit? I guarantee NONE of you can!

I'm glad you didn't stake money on that guarantee.

Western Pleasure mare.
bred out the butt for WP.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/a+gucci+investment

1st ride in English tack. I do have to half halt constantly because she wants so badly to put her head down.
(I had to buy the wintec wide and use the largest gullet = ~42cm tree)

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p189/xckaboom/abbysaddle.jpg

If the WP horse is trained correctly and not by the barns that tie their heads in the air for the night prior to the pleasure class than they most certainly can be ridden in any frame desired at anytime...which is how many of them compete in "all around".

I wish I had a pic of her in her western jog. I broke/rode her western to start out.
I sit there and wiggle my fingers occasionally and boop, the nose is on the ground--they are just bred to do that, it's amazing.
--that is if I stay awake long enough to remember that I'm sitting on a horse. :lol: Talk about a great ride, those WP horses.

I hope that I can ride when I am your age. Congrats on such a healthy, well maintained body. Be proud because your fitness is quite excellent.
And have a great time riding.

as for this thread, it's quite odd.

purplnurpl
Jul. 29, 2011, 02:59 PM
Mickeydoodle: The Spirit Yolk as I call it (you call it martingle) is not at all tight.

some also call it a fork.

cuatx55
Jul. 29, 2011, 03:03 PM
You can't get a horse to change his whole musculature/way of going/connection in 2 rides and be "on the bit". If you think that is possible then you don't know much about dressage, sorry. thats just a fact. I'm guessing the horse is adopting a headset of some sort.


Its not that hard to re-train QHs you know....

Old Fashioned
Jul. 29, 2011, 04:08 PM
We have his records form the American Quarter Horse Association. It shows his training was very basic.

So the AQHA records training? Huh.. Who knew?

showidaho
Jul. 29, 2011, 04:47 PM
So the AQHA records training? Huh.. Who knew?

I was thinking the same thing...I wonder where I can find my horse's training history...I'm a lifetime member of AQHA and my horses have show records so...I must just be looking in the wrong spot. :lol:

alicen
Jul. 29, 2011, 05:49 PM
You are all missing out on the wondrous feeling of being one, being light and dancing with your mount without the usual pull, drive and push. Gloria J. Perry

Quote from the video, "Rein! More rein! Turn him tight! Drive him across them [rails]. Kick him hard. Get After him. Drive him! Drive him! Drive him!

Big Kudos to your riding, Gloria, but I suspect you knew more than a little before taking lessons with Mr. Buck.

DutchDressageQueen
Jul. 29, 2011, 06:35 PM
Gloria,

With all due respect, when there is a very noticeable "v" shape in the "spirit" aka German martingale, physics simply dictates that the ring of the martingale is exerting downward pressure simultaneously on the hands of the rider and the bit/whatever the reins are attached to on the horse's end.

If you pull down on the middle of a clothesline, you are exerting downward pressure on both ends of the clothesline. If one end of the clothesline happens to be attached to a horse's face, and you make a notable "v" in the clotheline... you do the math.


Secondly, this is what I expect a horse to go like "after several years being trained in a different discipline":
This horse came to me out of a 4-H home where he was ridden roughly twice a month by a child, before which he had received extensive western pleasure training. For the record it is a14.3 hh, 7/8th QH Appendix, extensively western pleasure bred.
His first ride went like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtMzR3Iz2jA); a week later he was going like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7stlCJI1PwQ&).

Note the absence of any "v" shapes in the reins.
Note as well that "the mince" disappears.


Same horse one year later (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFr8X8fdCYE&).

All results achieved sans "Spirit Bridle."

So no, your trainer is not the "only one" who can retrain a horse, as you claimed in your first post. And for the record I would expect those results from *anybody* who calls themself a professional. It is kindergarten for horses, not something only one person in the universe can do.

I do not understand why your trainer INSISTS on declaring to everyone that he is the only one doing it right, and everyone else is doing it completely wrong. It is wonderful that he is providing you with a learning experience that you find positive but this confrotational attitude of Spirithorse-Against-The-World and Spirithorse-Is-the-Only-One-With-"The-Secret" is just nonsense. He is not the only one in America who can trot a horse on a 20m circle without falling off.

In fact he seems to be unable to demonstrate any results with a horse or student other than the most basic of the basic walk/trot/canter and the occasional 10" jump. Which, again, is fine if that is what you want to do with your horse, but why the rest of the world is apparently supposed to stop everything they are doing and change their programs to emulate him is beyond me.

Wow, you did a really good job with the horse! He looks totally different in the year later video!:)

DutchDressageQueen
Jul. 29, 2011, 06:55 PM
@Gloria J. Perry

If you want to see the result of the teachings of a truly great trainer, look at my website.
I have a background in horses, used to do first/second level ponies in holland. Then didn't ride much for a couple years. About 2 2.5 yrs ago I started training dressage seriously( with my trainer helping me). Look at my riding, I think I am doing decent considering I have been training dressage seriously for only 2 2.5 yrs. I am not saying that my trainer is the only way to go and is the only one that is right. There are many good trainers, but mine is totally awesome.

Petstorejunkie
Jul. 29, 2011, 07:14 PM
Okay, I'm going to assume that Mr. Buck has told Gloria he is a french classical dressage rider/trainer since she has used those terms to describe him.

Who did Mr. Buck learn french classical dressage from?

Snoball 1
Jul. 29, 2011, 07:17 PM
Your horse is REIN LAME, and will become permanently lame due to the way he is being ridden. You are doing your horse no favors by believing this way of going is acceptable.
Dressage should improve the balance, suppleness, strength of the horse, and this is NOT what is being done for this horse.

Good for you for wanting to learn to ride at your age, huge applause, but you must understand you are not learning correct principles, and your horse will suffer because of this. Alas, this is your horse and when he becomes sour, resistant, and uneven you will only have yourself to blame.

There are many, many, many trainers out there more than willing to take your money, tell you what a good job you're doing, whilst never giving a damn about teaching you or your horse correctly. Sadly far too many riders would prefer to have a "good Honey" lesson rather than hearing the truth.

DutchDressageQueen
Jul. 29, 2011, 07:19 PM
Sadly far too many riders would prefer to have a "good Honey" lesson rather than hearing the truth.

SO true!

SillyHorse
Jul. 29, 2011, 08:29 PM
You all are talking to the proverbial brick wall. This poor lady has no idea what she's doing, and in the process is making that sorry beast lame. It's disgusting, pathetic, and shameful.

meupatdoes
Jul. 29, 2011, 09:44 PM
Wow, you did a really good job with the horse! He looks totally different in the year later video!:)

Thanks!

I used my "Spirit Butt."
:cool:

mickeydoodle
Jul. 29, 2011, 10:05 PM
You know, I swore to myself that I would not post one more thing on this thread- it is truely a brick wall event (maybe like congress and the senate right now, with the debt ceiling......)

I am only posting to say that the videos posted by all the other people, the random ones from youtube, meupatdoes, etc all show such a remarkable level of horsemanship so far above anything spirithorse/dragonhearte, and sorry to say our 80+ original poster that it is incomprehensible to me that even the densest fog of denial can deny this fact. Yet, clearly spirithorse/dragonhearte, our 80+ poster can.

Kudos for everyone with the videos that were posted, great example of intro level, retraining a wp horse, etc. Great "dressage" great training.

mickeydoodle
Jul. 29, 2011, 10:07 PM
Thanks!

I used my "Spirit Butt."
:cool:

this has got to be one of the best and funniest replies in the history of "comebacks" rolling on the floor laughing is nothing compared to the mirth that this produced!:):lol::D:winkgrin::cool:;):eek::yes::):D :lol::winkgrin::cool:;):yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::y es::yes::yes::yes:

mswillie
Jul. 29, 2011, 10:22 PM
We will soon have a new Video to show the progress after 8 months.


I'm looking forward to it. It would take some doing to be worse than the first.

I do admire the 80+ year old woman riding but I'm no where near convinced that the woman in the video is really the OP.

ThreeFigs
Jul. 29, 2011, 10:50 PM
Gloria, take lessons from meupatdoes. Seriously.

Bless your heart, you're drowning in Mr. Buck's Kookaid.

Instead of bragging about your progress and Mr. Buck's genius, post the video here and remove all doubt.

katarine
Jul. 29, 2011, 11:01 PM
And I quote,at 2:45: YOU FEEL HOW HE'S BETTER?

yeah, she says, I do

YOU CAN SEE THE DIFFERENCE BECAUSE HE CAN'T PUT HIS FACE OUT IN FRONT OF HIM

isn't the saggybritches Reverend one of the MAJOR hecklers of horses on or behind the vertical?

Then he proceeds to encourage unsteady, pawing paws out of her hands.

AYE AYE

this is too rich, like dark chocolate, baby. TOO rich.

I think I need some spirits after that! That, or a prefrontal lobotomy ;)

mswillie
Jul. 29, 2011, 11:17 PM
I think I need some spirits after that! That, or a prefrontal lobotomy ;)

Better a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy. ;)

mickeydoodle
Jul. 29, 2011, 11:24 PM
Better a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy. ;)



ok, this might be funnier than the stated (by me) above, :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

must sign off now, jaws too tired from laughing

partlycloudy
Jul. 30, 2011, 02:37 AM
I've heard of 'selective hearing', this is like 'selective seeing'. How can anyone look at the pics/vidos posted by cothers, radom pictures in mags like 'dressage today', the many thousands of videos posted on youtube of upper level dressage riders and even begin to think that the original video here is even in the same league let alone somehow 'better'.
Strange, very strange and scary.

alicen
Jul. 30, 2011, 05:48 AM
I've heard of 'selective hearing', this is like 'selective seeing'.

And selective denial. Under comments on the video, sh/dh is denying that he said this: "Figure eights. Use your outside leg for impulsion, inside leg for the degree of the arc and the curve."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQMGbRv92YM 3:47 - 4:00.

indyblue
Jul. 30, 2011, 06:34 AM
Can anyone tell me why the "Spirit Yolk" is needed with the Spirit Bridle? Just been on Youtube and there are allot of really nice examples of bitless riding in the Dr Cook bridle.None of the videos have the riders using a martingale and Gloria it is a martingale plain and simple.No magical spirit powers attached to it.Anyway also wanted to say that its fantastic you are riding at 82yrs.I would love to be doing the same in 40yrs but sadly I'm pretty sure my body will not allow it.

partlycloudy
Jul. 30, 2011, 06:48 AM
I think it is on there to trick the riders into thinking their horses are 'on the bit'. The spirit bridle is to instantly create a classical connection between horse and rider, when actually its just pulling the head down ( the martingale that is).
And what is the purpose of doing so much walking over the rails? We only walk the horses over the rails a time or two to simply let them see that they are there....the spacing is not correct if you intend to then trot over....it has absolutely no training effect to walk over them continually.

alicen
Jul. 30, 2011, 07:49 AM
Can anyone tell me why the "Spirit Yolk" is needed with the Spirit Bridle?

Bib martingales are primarily used for flat racing and steeple chasing.

"A bib martingale has a leather 'bib' between the two martingale straps. This helps to keep the reins closer together, and prevents a horse from grabbing the straps.
However a bib martingale will not allow a rider to open the rein." from equi-therapy.net.

picture: http://newyorktack.net/catalog/i4.html

As for its use in dressage training, go figure. Actually, you probably have better things to think about.

DutchDressageQueen
Jul. 30, 2011, 08:34 AM
I used my "Spirit Butt."

Best comeback EVER! :yes::lol:

4xhoof
Jul. 30, 2011, 11:26 AM
If a rider is 8 years old or 100 years old, if that person are going to ride and teach a horse, that rider needs to fully understand every piece of tack they use on their horse. They also should learn about other tack and function. As a little kid, I was in 4-h and pony club. And you were expected to know various tack items, what they did, and how it was used even if you did not have that item on your horse or anywhere in your possession. The OP should research this Racing yoke martingale and its function. Just because someone renamed it to 'spirit' does not make it magical tack. It is a device that alters how the rider and horse interact with each other.

At any age, a rider should should not zero in on one 'instructor' and declare that said instructor is the ONLY one who can train their horse. There are many instructors and trainers having years of experience, mentor-ships with other trainers and knowledge to offer. Even if you adore your instructor, every rider should step outside their box and go to a clinic with someone new. At least 2 times a year IMO. I ride with my primary trainer and then clinic with 3 other trainers several times a year. And my Trainer fully supports this. If someone has an' instructor' that does not encourage riding in clinics, riding with other trainers and does not assist their rider when trying different tack to find what works best for that person and their horse, it may indicate that there are some control issues, some insecurity from said instructor.

Get out and meet other instructors, experiment with other tack. Do not zero in on 1 item thinking it is the only way, all or nothing. By expanding ones knowledge and experience by working with a variety of horse people/products, It is the best way to become a true horseman/horsewoman.

ThreeFigs
Jul. 30, 2011, 12:14 PM
Well stated, 4xhoof.

Ghazzu
Jul. 30, 2011, 01:15 PM
Mickeydoodle: The Spirit Yolk as I call it (you call it martingle) is not at all tight. We rode him in a regular martingle, so we know the difference.

It is spelled "yoke". And it *is* a type of running martingale--that particular flavor of it is not uncommon in race horse training barns. Try googling "fork".



If you ride Sundust in a tight nose band or tight martingle, you would soon know it in no uncertain terms that it is irritating and not to his liking. I do not understand your comment about "crank the head down" nose in device. What do you expect a horse to be like coming from 6 years of such a completely different discipline.

Frankly, a horse who had spent 6 years in WP? I'd expect his neck to be horizontal with respect to the ground. Not inverted, as it is in most of the video.

MyssMyst
Jul. 30, 2011, 01:31 PM
So, my thoughts:

1.DH8 should not be training.
2. DH8 REALLY likes pussycats.
3. DH8 should not be training.
4. DH8 needs fashion help.
5. DH8 should not be training.
6. DH8 needs a haircut.
7. DH8 should not be training.
8. That horse is not on the bit.
9. DH8 should not be training.
10. I want a Spirit Butt!

LarkspurCO
Jul. 30, 2011, 01:58 PM
I can't help but wonder about the black horse waiting in the wings. Is he the next unfortunate victim?

birdsong
Jul. 30, 2011, 03:42 PM
My first instinct was to forgive her for drinking the Koo-laid...geesh at 80+ its fantastic to be riding IMO...

But forget that! She needs to be educated enough to see the mistakes in the video or what has she gained by living to her 80's??.

She's bumping the horses mouth so much that his head is elevated against the discomfort....the tail swishing also indicates annoyance. He doesn't seem to be stepping under himself very well either.

I suppose all the syrup this person pours out has affected her mind. There are too many people taken in by trainers. This is obviously a case of that.

Brick Wall

Melissa.Van Doren
Jul. 30, 2011, 07:05 PM
Gloria, take lessons from meupatdoes. Seriously.

Bless your heart, you're drowning in Mr. Buck's Kookaid.

Instead of bragging about your progress and Mr. Buck's genius, post the video here and remove all doubt.

:D:lol::D:lol:
I don't know if you intended that, or simply mis-typed... funny, either way.
:yes::lol:

catosis
Jul. 30, 2011, 07:41 PM
"It is easier to do things at trot than it is at the walk"

So you just avoid doing anything at the walk all together???? That is certainly not correct. If you can't correct an issue in the walk, then it will only be exacerbated in the trot and especially the canter. J*sus!

Oh, and that horse is lame. I would get a second opinion on that from another vet, not an equine masseuse.

On a side note, I like the fact that this guy is talking to his kittykat while teaching. CATS AWAY!

honeylips
Jul. 30, 2011, 08:19 PM
We really shouldn't feed the trolls - even 80+yo trolls. Not worth the energy.

ThreeFigs
Jul. 30, 2011, 09:33 PM
So, my thoughts:

1.DH8 should not be training.
2. DH8 REALLY likes pussycats.
3. DH8 should not be training.
4. DH8 needs fashion help.
5. DH8 should not be training.
6. DH8 needs a haircut.
7. DH8 should not be training.
8. That horse is not on the bit.
9. DH8 should not be training.
10. I want a Spirit Butt!

Wonderful! :lol:

DutchDressageQueen
Jul. 30, 2011, 10:25 PM
""So, my thoughts:

1.DH8 should not be training.
2. DH8 REALLY likes pussycats.
3. DH8 should not be training.
4. DH8 needs fashion help.
5. DH8 should not be training.
6. DH8 needs a haircut.
7. DH8 should not be training.
8. That horse is not on the bit.
9. DH8 should not be training.
10. I want a Spirit Butt!""

:yes:

mickeydoodle
Jul. 30, 2011, 11:02 PM
So, my thoughts:

1.DH8 should not be training.
2. DH8 REALLY likes pussycats.
3. DH8 should not be training.
4. DH8 needs fashion help.
5. DH8 should not be training.
6. DH8 needs a haircut.
7. DH8 should not be training.
8. That horse is not on the bit.
9. DH8 should not be training.
10. I want a Spirit Butt!

:winkgrin::D:lol: men over the age of 50 who are NOT built like Jake Gyllenhall (spell) should not wear leather vests, nor tie their gray, thin, receeding locks into a pony tail- best left to biker gangs

Old Fashioned
Jul. 31, 2011, 08:25 AM
men over the age of 50 who are NOT built like Jake Gyllenhaal should not wear leather vests, nor tie their gray, thin, receeding locks into a pony tail- best left to biker gangs

Maybe he is in biker gang and figures if a bike can go in a spirit whatchamigidgit then a horse should too... :winkgrin:

MyssMyst
Jul. 31, 2011, 11:11 AM
Maybe he is in biker gang and figures if a bike can go in a spirit whatchamigidgit then a horse should too... :winkgrin:

Well, that would certainly explain why he thinks it's easier to do trot work than walk work. Faster is always easier :p:winkgrin:

CFFarm
Jul. 31, 2011, 03:41 PM
I couldn't watch more than a few moments of the video because the horse is so sore. :no:

ToN Farm
Jul. 31, 2011, 04:42 PM
I couldn't watch more than a few moments of the video because the horse is so sore. :no: Agree, and it's very sad. SH, as much fun as it is for some of you to poke at him, is not the issue here imo. It is a rider that is clueless about the soundness of her horse. She is not alone either. I see many videos on these boards of riders with varying degrees of being NQR. Just because this lady is 80 does not give her an excuse for riding a lame horse.

dragonharte8
Jul. 31, 2011, 05:23 PM
Thank you for your posts regarding this horse being lame.

I am going to use these posts to show how individuals - which would include judges - do not have a clue regarding how to visually see lameness.:eek:

:mad:Ok ----- The crap stops now! :mad:
Not one of you posters has a damn clue.
The horse was not sore when this was filmed.

The tiptoeing he does comes from his previous schooling.
We have a new video, trying to get it uploaded in the the computer so we can let you see him revert to tiptoeing when he tries to evade or more oftenly is emotionally reacting!

This horse did not know how to move in any other manner except the tiptoeing and it was frustrating teaching him to open up. We have a long way to go with him, however, he has progressed and that is because of the patience we have used in dealing with the emotional baggage previous schooling inflicted upon him.

So now you may continue with your diatribes :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

gjperry
Jul. 31, 2011, 06:19 PM
I would appreciate if all of you would clarify the word "Credentials" used in reference to Mr. Buck. What "Credentials are you looking for? From the English classes I took, I learned that word "Credential" means "Letters of Introduction" and comes from the Medieval Latin "Credere" meaning "Believe". In everyday use, it refers to such things as DR. in front of a name or PhD at the end of the name or certificates received from various Academies or Groups. I am aware that in Germany there is a training program for Equestrian Instructors where by a person moves up the ranks receiving a special title at each level. The same holds true at the Spanish Riding School in Vienna and the Cadre Noir in Sumur, France. However, I have, to date, not heard or read about any program like that in the U.S. Which trainers can you name, that are in the U.S. that have such credentials and did they obtain them here in the states?

With Love, Kindness, Joy and Beauty,
Gloria J. Perry

Unfforgettable
Jul. 31, 2011, 06:21 PM
Dragonharte8, please do post where your degree in veterinary medicine came from so we can verify it.

I'd also be interested in knowing who you studied French Classical dressage under so that can be verified as well.

The horse in question is more likely bridle lame than anything, because with the bit in his mouth, he's getting pounded by unsteady hands. And the training fork (call it what you will....whip=carrot stick, training fork=spirit yoke....tomatoes. tomahtoes) clearly puts an angle in the reins and steadies the contact, breaking the straight line between the mouth and the hands. If he was previously western pleasure trained, he wouldn't be going inverted and hollow with his nose in the air, so it clearly wasn't western pleasure training you're trying to "undo".

Your sig line is in direct conflict with your words during the video...you're forcing and demanding, there is no ask and allow.

Bugs-n-Frodo
Jul. 31, 2011, 06:32 PM
Mr Harte, I have one question having just read your article, On The Bit, The Frame.

Have you EVER listened to STEFFEN (not Stephen) Peters teach?

Are you going to tell me that the picture illustrated in this article, on page 7 (http://www.hartetoharte.org/New_Pure_Classic_Dressage__complete_.pdf) is correct?

MyssMyst
Jul. 31, 2011, 07:01 PM
Thank you for your posts regarding this horse being lame.

I am going to use these posts to show how individuals - which would include judges - do not have a clue regarding how to visually see lameness.:eek:

:mad:Ok ----- The crap stops now! :mad:
Not one of you posters has a damn clue.
The horse was not sore when this was filmed.

The tiptoeing he does comes from his previous schooling.
We have a new video, trying to get it uploaded in the the computer so we can let you see him revert to tiptoeing when he tries to evade or more oftenly is emotionally reacting!

This horse did not know how to move in any other manner except the tiptoeing and it was frustrating teaching him to open up. We have a long way to go with him, however, he has progressed and that is because of the patience we have used in dealing with the emotional baggage previous schooling inflicted upon him.

So now you may continue with your diatribes :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Emotional baggage? :lol: FFS, how does a training fork indicate patience? And how the hell does it help with emotional baggage? Is there some majikal substance in zee spirit fork that draws out bad thoughts/memories? If so, it sure as heck better cause this horse to fart glitter and crap gold, because that's some special sh!t you're feeding this horse/owner.

I'd love to see the vet exam showing this horse was not sore.

A quick little life lesson: If one person calls you crazy, ignore it. If two call you crazy, start wondering. If three call you crazy, accept that you are BSC and make your way to the nearest mental health facility. You are way past three.

dragonharte8
Jul. 31, 2011, 07:12 PM
In the court of law here in the States it is widely accepted that extensive experience alone can qualify as expert testimony.

As for Mr. Peters, the answer is YES. And I do not give a dang who is teaching, if they do not transmit the lesson of correct on the bit frame then they should stop teaching.

And folks who squawk like parrots should refrain from ruining their vocal chords ----
squawk means: to scream or protest loudly or vehemently

MyssMyst
Jul. 31, 2011, 07:20 PM
In the court of law here in the States it is widely accepted that extensive experience alone can qualify as expert testimony.

As for Mr. Peters, the answer is YES. And I do not give a dang who is teaching, if they do not transmit the lesson of correct on the bit frame then they should stop teaching.

Then by your thinking, you really, really need to stop training.

Bugs-n-Frodo
Jul. 31, 2011, 07:21 PM
And I do not give a dang who is teaching, if they do not transmit the lesson of correct on the bit frame then they should stop teaching.

Interesting that you should say that.

Also, I have never seen Steffen use a "Yoke", spirit or otherwise, to get his horse in a "correct on the bit frame". It actually comes from rhythm, suppleness, contact, impulsion, straightness, and collection, not use of artificial gimmicks. Just saying.

ideayoda
Jul. 31, 2011, 07:43 PM
An 'on the bit frame' is NOT a frame per se, it is result of what the entire rest of the horse. Riding a horse on a curved line and lateral flexibility can help the horse learn to offer a bit on longitudinal flexion, but that is by NO means 'on the bit'. And a horse must really have a bit to be properly on the bit. Impulsion is by no means originated in the outside leg, it might control the hindquarters falling out, but not impulsion.

My mom hunted 5-6 days a week until she was 87 and was a very clever trainer. That said, some the basics

As to the length of the (racing) yoke...it IS too short. A running martigale's ring should be the height of the point of the hip. Otherwise it is simply a lever which creates false flexion.

For the OP, it is very dangerous to walk (trot) over poles on the ground, ideally they should be set into Xs, but more so they should be set to the stride length properly. So, there is a different length to walk ones and top ones. Additionally, the horse should step to the middle of them and more is NOT better, it easily makes the horse hollowing the back.

Perhaps it is the rider just finding a greater balance and stride length which helps the horse, but it most certainly was foot sore in the beginning. And asking for that many caveletti (anything beyond 4 in the beginning is asking a lot of a horse) is also over the limit, and invites muscle pain. And the chest of the horse does NOT remain lifted afterwards, which reveals the level of fatigue of the horse. Not traditional nor methodical imho.

NO one should propose that a retraining horse (or worse yet a green one) in a 'proper frame' in a couple of rides. That sort of (apparent) control comes only from false leveraging, it impresses those with have no other frame of reference or proper methodology as to how to present bit acceptance and flexion to the horse and rider. The most that type of horse should have is steady energy and a light sustained contact, the rest is the responsibility of a steady rider with clear intention.

It will be interesting to see the changes in the horse after a year of training, and how its bit acceptance/energy level/stride length has improved.

DutchDressageQueen
Jul. 31, 2011, 07:45 PM
Interesting that you should say that.

Also, I have never seen Steffen use a "Yoke", spirit or otherwise, to "get his horse in a "correct on the bit frame". It actually comes from rhythm, suppleness, contact, impulsion, straightness, and collection, not use of artificial gimmicks. Just saying.

yes, no gadgets used.:) ( ahem... martingale or whatever you are calling it with spirit bridle... a gadget :eek::yes: for a FALSE frame.)

DutchDressageQueen
Jul. 31, 2011, 07:48 PM
It will be interesting to see the changes in the horse after a year of training, and how its bit acceptance/energy level/stride length has improved.

:yes:

MistyBlue
Jul. 31, 2011, 07:56 PM
If the previous training was as a flamenco dancer...then I can understand the movement.

Western pleasure is neither tip-toe, head high nor inverted back.

CatPS
Jul. 31, 2011, 08:11 PM
I would appreciate if all of you would clarify the word "Credentials" used in reference to Mr. Buck. What "Credentials are you looking for? From the English classes I took, I learned that word "Credential" means "Letters of Introduction" and comes from the Medieval Latin "Credere" meaning "Believe".


The latin 'credo, credere, credidi, creditum' is actually closer to 'to trust, to trust in, to rely upon, to believe as a fact, to entrust (something to a person),' and that verb is classical latin, not medieval. So presumably, "Credentials" refers to the proof which demonstrates one's suitability to fulfill the trust that is placed in him. Hence the concept of "questionable credentials;" just because someone lists a bunch of junk that they claim makes them an expert does not mean that those "credentials" prove their trustworthiness.

alibi_18
Jul. 31, 2011, 08:36 PM
I would appreciate if all of you would clarify the word "Credentials" used in reference to Mr. Buck. What "Credentials are you looking for? From the English classes I took, I learned that word "Credential" means "Letters of Introduction" and comes from the Medieval Latin "Credere" meaning "Believe". In everyday use, it refers to such things as DR. in front of a name or PhD at the end of the name or certificates received from various Academies or Groups. I am aware that in Germany there is a training program for Equestrian Instructors where by a person moves up the ranks receiving a special title at each level. The same holds true at the Spanish Riding School in Vienna and the Cadre Noir in Sumur, France. However, I have, to date, not heard or read about any program like that in the U.S. Which trainers can you name, that are in the U.S. that have such credentials and did
they obtain them here in the states?

With Love, Kindness, Joy and Beauty,
Gloria J. Perry

You are kidding right? Or truly clueless?

DutchDressageQueen
Jul. 31, 2011, 08:46 PM
I ask you this question - Who among you can take a Western Pleasure Trained horse (head almost to the ground) or a young green horse and on the second lesson have that horse completely and constantly in proper frame and on the bit? I guarantee NONE of you can! You have been so busy criticizing Mr. Buck that you failed to acknowledge that Sundust came to us as a Western Trained Horse and that he had had only one, I reiterate, only one other session with Mr. Buck before the Video was shot.
:confused:


was the horse completely and constantly in proper frame and on the bit?:eek:




The truth is hard.

propspony
Jul. 31, 2011, 08:48 PM
If the previous training was as a flamenco dancer...then I can understand the movement.

Western pleasure is neither tip-toe, head high nor inverted back.

Here is a good example of western pleasure... no tip-toe, inversion or anything else that looks like that poor sore horse in the first video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUwfiriN_7Y

(and his TB line is the same one that Laurie's Crusador came from... just some fun trivia there)

Mkelle11
Jul. 31, 2011, 09:13 PM
You are kidding right? Or truly clueless?

I'm hoping she simply doesn't know anything but what he's taught her. Like people who grow up with their grandpa telling them that, say, horses should be backed and trained as yearlings. Later, they get to the larger horse community and don't know any better. Of course they defend the practice to the death, simply because that's all they know....I'm hoping, no, PRAYING that's the case here. She deserves a medal for riding at her age, and it's a shame she's defending this ridiculousness and being attacked because of it. :(

cuatx55
Jul. 31, 2011, 09:18 PM
This person MUST be a troll, no reasonable person can honestly be thinking like this?

katarine
Jul. 31, 2011, 09:42 PM
By all means, when I encounter a horse who's been held back, picked at, crabbed at to create a bad, faux WP 'frame',,,by all means, I pick at them further, trapping them in too short training forks, with unsteady, pawing hands, over loose ground poles. Yeah, that'll get 'em to reach and lift. Hold their faces down and in: in your own words, he can't get his face out in front of him.

Personally, I can't wait for more ponytailed saggy fanny wonderment. Oh, that, and cat chatter. I do like cats.

alibi_18
Jul. 31, 2011, 10:05 PM
I'm hoping she simply doesn't know anything but what he's taught her. Like people who grow up with their grandpa telling them that, say, horses should be backed and trained as yearlings. Later, they get to the larger horse community and don't know any better. Of course they defend the practice to the death, simply because that's all they know....I'm hoping, no, PRAYING that's the case here. She deserves a medal for riding at her age, and it's a shame she's defending this ridiculousness and being attacked because of it. :(


I'm not from the US and I know certification programs do exist everywhere on earth...and those certifications can be recognised internationaly so here is a
link for the US levels:


http://www.usdf.org/education/instructor-certification/levels.asp

If she can log on a BB, create an account and start a thread, I'm sure she is able to do some internet research...at her age, she should know better. Think before talking. Sorry.

Unfforgettable
Jul. 31, 2011, 10:33 PM
As for Mr. Peters, the answer is YES. And I do not give a dang who is teaching, if they do not transmit the lesson of correct on the bit frame then they should stop teaching.


Perhaps you'd be willing to take your own advice, since you value it so highly?

Bugs-n-Frodo
Jul. 31, 2011, 11:13 PM
OK Mr Harte, since you have seen Steffen teach, what does he say, CONTINUOUSLY, about working in "frames"? (Personally, I hate the word "frame" in dressage as it connotes to me, something artificial, and that is not how I want my dressage work to be. Is there a better word for that?)

mswillie
Jul. 31, 2011, 11:20 PM
I'm still 95% sure that the woman shown riding in the video is not the OP. Even if someone didn't start riding until they were in their 50s you'd think they'd have learned something in the 30 ensuing years. I'm just not buying it.

mickeydoodle
Jul. 31, 2011, 11:40 PM
I would appreciate if all of you would clarify the word "Credentials" used in reference to Mr. Buck. What "Credentials are you looking for? From the English classes I took, I learned that word "Credential" means "Letters of Introduction" and comes from the Medieval Latin "Credere" meaning "Believe". In everyday use, it refers to such things as DR. in front of a name or PhD at the end of the name or certificates received from various Academies or Groups. I am aware that in Germany there is a training program for Equestrian Instructors where by a person moves up the ranks receiving a special title at each level. The same holds true at the Spanish Riding School in Vienna and the Cadre Noir in Sumur, France. However, I have, to date, not heard or read about any program like that in the U.S. Which trainers can you name, that are in the U.S. that have such credentials and did they obtain them here in the states?

With Love, Kindness, Joy and Beauty,
Gloria J. Perry

sorry old duck, the gloves are comming off- the USDF has a long (over 20 years) and proud tradition of CERTIFYING DRESSAGE INSTRUCTORS (AT TWO DIFFERENT LEVELS EVEN) LOOK AT YOUR LOCAL GMO DRESSAGE ASSOCIATION TO FIND CERTIFIED INSTRUCTORS IN YOUR AREA, (BUCK NOT BEING ONE OF THEM) OR LOOK AT THE USDF WEBSITE.

mickeydoodle
Jul. 31, 2011, 11:52 PM
Thank you for your posts regarding this horse being lame.

I am going to use these posts to show how individuals - which would include judges - do not have a clue regarding how to visually see lameness.:eek:

:mad:Ok ----- The crap stops now! :mad:
Not one of you posters has a damn clue.
The horse was not sore when this was filmed.

The tiptoeing he does comes from his previous schooling.
We have a new video, trying to get it uploaded in the the computer so we can let you see him revert to tiptoeing when he tries to evade or more oftenly is emotionally reacting!

This horse did not know how to move in any other manner except the tiptoeing and it was frustrating teaching him to open up. We have a long way to go with him, however, he has progressed and that is because of the patience we have used in dealing with the emotional baggage previous schooling inflicted upon him.

So now you may continue with your diatribes :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:




OK YOU OLD ...... I agree the horse is not lame, instead it is SHUFFLING around the ring with your poor deluded rider pulling its head down with your "YOKE- NOT YOLK" look at the V in the reins, the horse is still fightin up against the restraint, and the bobbing, jamming, unsteady contact. You are there on the ground with the "SO DO YOU FEEL THAT, GOOD, ETC" WHEN THE WHOLE THING IS MISERABLE!!!!!!

Do not hide behind the "on his toes" you proposed above- sorry any western pleasure started horse (let alone trained) is going to SHUFFLE!! When they are confronted with HARSH, INCONSISTENT CONTACT, FOLLOWED BY A MARTINGALE THAT PUTS DOWNWARD PRESSURE ON THE REINS FROM THE HAND TO THE NOSE- they will curl, mince, back off, and do all of the things that your poor victim does in the video.


Try watching some real lessons, some real rides. However I know it is hopeless, you are stuck in your .............

ToN Farm
Jul. 31, 2011, 11:58 PM
I'm still 95% sure that the woman shown riding in the video is not the OP. It is her. If you don't believe it, just send off an email to her and let her confirm. Her address is on her website. She has posted before on udbb.

The horse is lame, not just rein lame, but leg lame.

DutchDressageQueen
Aug. 1, 2011, 07:28 AM
"Still riding at 82 and still learning the fine art of Classical Dressage."

Who are you learning that from?

partlycloudy
Aug. 1, 2011, 08:02 AM
The OP makes reference to the SRS and the Cadre Noir....I am proud to say that my coach has trained in both schools. If the OP would like to pm me for his next clinic schedule (he teaches in both Can and the US) perhaps she could attend one of his clinics. She would then see the difference (I would hope)

alicen
Aug. 1, 2011, 08:34 AM
I am going to use these posts to show how individuals - which would include judges - do not have a clue regarding how to visually see lameness.

Oh great Spirithorse, please forgive the errors of our narrow, egotistical, and all-too-human way of perception. And understand that the lack of availability to Spirit Koolaid prevents us from sharing your enlightened way of seeing.

katarine
Aug. 1, 2011, 08:46 AM
You know, the likes of Lendon Grey and Jane Savoie and many, many others wander through here. It would be a waste of their time (just as it is ours) to set him straight, but it could be humorous.

Darn those folks for being too classy to get in the mud with this maroon ;)

dalpal
Aug. 1, 2011, 09:20 AM
You are kidding right? Or truly clueless?

LOL...well, you know, when you don't have a legit argument, as always go for the jugular, attack someone's English language/grammar skills. :lol:

dalpal
Aug. 1, 2011, 09:28 AM
Thank you for your posts regarding this horse being lame.

I am going to use these posts to show how individuals - which would include judges - do not have a clue regarding how to visually see lameness.:eek:

:mad:Ok ----- The crap stops now! :mad:
Not one of you posters has a damn clue.
The horse was not sore when this was filmed.

The tiptoeing he does comes from his previous schooling.
We have a new video, trying to get it uploaded in the the computer so we can let you see him revert to tiptoeing when he tries to evade or more oftenly is emotionally reacting!

This horse did not know how to move in any other manner except the tiptoeing and it was frustrating teaching him to open up. We have a long way to go with him, however, he has progressed and that is because of the patience we have used in dealing with the emotional baggage previous schooling inflicted upon him.

So now you may continue with your diatribes :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


Ok..I'll play......:D

Ok, so horse isn't lame, he is just evading contact....so your training method is just to throw the rider up on a hollowed back and toss her some gadgets to hold in two very unsteady hands????:confused::confused:

If this is just an evasion, please why aren't you doing ground work with the horse...ie teaching the horse to use himself properly without a rider first, build up enough muscle to hold his back up, to move through his body.

Quite honestly, if a horse is truly through his/her body, there isn't any need for gadgets. in a rider's hands. As one of my instructors would tell me.."Ride the hind legs, not the front"..If the horse isn't lame and just shuffling, you should be addressing that issue without having a rider just sit on this poor horse's hollowed back and bounce.

The horse doesn't look happy that's for sure, pinning ears, swishing tail...if he isn't lame, he is certainly sore. Did you at least have a chiropractor adjust him?

meupatdoes
Aug. 1, 2011, 09:41 AM
You know, I don't even have a huge problem with the lesson as pictured (caveat about the horse looking uncomfortable and wishing that were addressed better, but bear with me a second).

If you have a sweet but somewhat limited horse on the equine athlete side of things, and an 80+ rider on the human side of things, I have absolutely no problems with shifting the lesson-mode down a few notches and making sure everyone has a safe time where they enjoy their horse and feel like they have accomplished something at the end of the ride. Even if it is a small thing it is ok. It is not necessary to coach 80 year old students on QHs like they need to be scoring 70's at First Level in 6 weeks. So you let some stuff slide, you work on what you can work on.

I am not going to criticize an 80+ year old for not riding like a teenager or a casual instructor for not wearing breeches to teach or sticking to a level he is comfortable teaching. I respect the fact that on the video he is quoted as saying he is "not a good enough rider to do certain things." Fine -the three of you get together and do what you can and if you are enjoying yourselves and making progress here and there on a beautful day with a sweet horse then great!


What I really have a problem with is the insistence that somehow this video illustrates the Grand Poo Bah Dressage Mastery at work, and that it is basically being presented as EVIDENCE that the rest of us are all doing it wrong. We are supposed to be wowed by the results and shamed into changing our ways. Um, why is this confrontational attitude so necessary to your self concept? Is it really necessary to elevate a student trotting slowly and (understandably) bumpily around a 20m circle to "THIS IS BETTER THAN STEFFEN PETERS TEACHING."???

Do you really have to convince yourselves that Steffen Peters ain't got nothin' on us to enjoy teaching a student or learning from an instructor???

kinnip
Aug. 1, 2011, 09:44 AM
Thanks!

I used my "Spirit Butt."
:cool:

:lol: :lol: :lol: Just had to pause my reading of this thread and post. That made my day!

Lost_at_C
Aug. 1, 2011, 10:11 AM
I am not going to criticize an 80+ year old for not riding like a teenager or a casual instructor for not wearing breeches to teach or sticking to a level he is comfortable teaching. I respect the fact that on the video he is quoted as saying he is "not a good enough rider to do certain things." Fine -the three of you get together and do what you can and if you are enjoying yourselves and making progress here and there on a beautful day with a sweet horse then great!


What I really have a problem with is the insistence that somehow this video illustrates the Grand Poo Bah Dressage Mastery at work, and that it is basically being presented as EVIDENCE that the rest of us are all doing it wrong. We are supposed to be wowed by the results and shamed into changing our ways. Um, why is this confrontational attitude so necessary to your self concept? Is it really necessary to elevate a student trotting slowly and (understandably) bumpily around a 20m circle to "THIS IS BETTER THAN STEFFEN PETERS TEACHING."???


Excellent post!

LarkspurCO
Aug. 1, 2011, 10:42 AM
OK Mr Harte, since you have seen Steffen teach, what does he say, CONTINUOUSLY, about working in "frames"?

What does he say?

WBLover
Aug. 1, 2011, 10:46 AM
IMO "credentials" may not just mean they are "certified" by USDF or another governing entity, but what have they accomplished in the dressage world?

Who have they trained with?
How have they done showing?
To what level?
Do they have any of their medals?

And even if they don't ride regularly themselves (due to injury, etc.), how many students and to what level have they successfully trained?

References from those students?

I don't know of any other students who have piped in and defended Mr. Buck except you, Gloria.

Doesn't that tell you something??

Bogey2
Aug. 1, 2011, 10:52 AM
IMO "credentials" may not just mean they are "certified" by USDF or another governing entity, but what have they accomplished in the dressage world?

Who have they trained with?
How have they done showing?
To what level?
Do they have any of their medals?

And even if they don't ride regularly themselves (due to injury, etc.), how many students and to what level have they successfully trained?

totally agree with this

ThreeFigs
Aug. 1, 2011, 11:04 AM
^ This!

I don't believe USDF instructor certification guarantees great teaching. My own coach lacks this, but makes up for it with experience and success both in and out of the show arena. She has her Silver and Gold USDF medals, has travelled extensively here and abroad to work with upper level coaches, and is always adding new skills to her teaching.

My very first instructor rode at the SRS. My second instructor trained with Waetjen. Extremely different teaching styles, both very effective.

Then I had a BHSI instructor who, while not a super rider (getting older and health issues), she could teach, teach, teach! One does not NECESSARILY have to be an Olympian to pass on good info.

That said, SH/DH8 dispenses poppycock.

alibi_18
Aug. 1, 2011, 11:38 AM
I don't believe USDF instructor certification guarantees great teaching.

I brought up the USDF certification program because of this :


However, I have, to date, not heard or read about any program like that in the U.S. Which trainers can you name, that are in the U.S. that have such credentials and did they obtain them here in the states?

Being an USDF instructor doesn't mean bad teaching either. But the certification program does exist, works and there are lots of great teachers out there who are certified.

There is lots of other ways to get credentials of course.


That said, SH/DH8 dispenses poppycock.

That is true.

carolprudm
Aug. 1, 2011, 11:40 AM
If you have a sweet but somewhat limited horse on the equine athlete side of things, and an 80+ rider on the human side of things, I have absolutely no problems with shifting the lesson-mode down a few notches and making sure everyone has a safe time where they enjoy their horse and feel like they have accomplished something at the end of the ride. Even if it is a small thing it is ok. It is not necessary to coach 80 year old students on QHs like they need to be scoring 70's at First Level in 6 weeks. So you let some stuff slide, you work on what you can work on.

I generally agree with your posts but can't say the same about this one. It's not a case of a rider with limitations riding a horse with limitations. It is the rider's unsteady hands jabbing the poor horse in his mouth and her bouncing seat on his hollow back that they should be working on.

birdsong
Aug. 1, 2011, 11:45 AM
I really DON'T think this sounds like an 80+ person!

It's not real.

CFFarm
Aug. 1, 2011, 11:46 AM
You know, I don't even have a huge problem with the lesson as pictured (caveat about the horse looking uncomfortable and wishing that were addressed better, but bear with me a second).

If you have a sweet but somewhat limited horse on the equine athlete side of things, and an 80+ rider on the human side of things, I have absolutely no problems with shifting the lesson-mode down a few notches and making sure everyone has a safe time where they enjoy their horse and feel like they have accomplished something at the end of the ride. Even if it is a small thing it is ok. It is not necessary to coach 80 year old students on QHs like they need to be scoring 70's at First Level in 6 weeks. So you let some stuff slide, you work on what you can work on.

I am not going to criticize an 80+ year old for not riding like a teenager or a casual instructor for not wearing breeches to teach or sticking to a level he is comfortable teaching. I respect the fact that on the video he is quoted as saying he is "not a good enough rider to do certain things." Fine -the three of you get together and do what you can and if you are enjoying yourselves and making progress here and there on a beautful day with a sweet horse then great!


What I really have a problem with is the insistence that somehow this video illustrates the Grand Poo Bah Dressage Mastery at work, and that it is basically being presented as EVIDENCE that the rest of us are all doing it wrong. We are supposed to be wowed by the results and shamed into changing our ways. Um, why is this confrontational attitude so necessary to your self concept? Is it really necessary to elevate a student trotting slowly and (understandably) bumpily around a 20m circle to "THIS IS BETTER THAN STEFFEN PETERS TEACHING."???

Do you really have to convince yourselves that Steffen Peters ain't got nothin' on us to enjoy teaching a student or learning from an instructor???

Great post, although the horse still looks sore to me which means I wouldn't be using him. This is kinda how I feel. I can't help but wonder how Mr Dragon/Spirit's products are selling other than to his students. Even if I was curious I would really think twice after seeing his videos and photos. From strictly a marketing prospective, why wouldn't you get someone more educated in the ways of classical riding to promote it? Maybe he cannot find anyone who knows quite as much as he? Anything I see he posts hurts his cause.

Valentina_32926
Aug. 1, 2011, 11:51 AM
Gloria - Great you're riding at 80+ years - you are my inspiration.

I looked just now at the video posted in THIS thread. I see why the martingale was added but would suggest doing a few things so you don't need it.

By the way - The "mincing steps" are only because horse is uncomfortable - look at the video and you'll see you are bouncing on his back - which in turn makes him hollow and take shorter steps. I don't believe he is lame.

First - start with rising trot. Relax your legs (stretch them down instead of gripping with them - old habits die hard! The focus on opening your elbows as you rise, closing them as you sit. That will help your arms (and thus the reins) to be steadier. That in turn will help the horse to lower his head and bring his nose in versus using a martingale. Tha martingale is not a bad idea - it will help you get a better feel to the way it should be, but the martingale is a bandaide and not a fix.

Once you can do a rising trot and keep your hands ready (and IF you can relax your legs more) then you can try the sitting trot. Here you use the same elbow action (opening/closing) timed to the horses natural head action. As his head comes down you "open" the elbows, as it comes up you "close" the elbows. If you can sit the trot and pull one or both legs away from the saddle that will help eleviate the gripping with your legs. (Those of us whom have ridden hunter/jumper in the past tend to grip with our legs and turn our toes out, so I completely understand.)

In the sitting trot your upper body follows the horses head movements, the lower body follows the horses body movements - so it like when the (riders) hips come forward the elbows close (come back) - when the hips go back the elbows open.

And make sure you breathe. Also - if you are secure enough try to lower your stirrup leather at least one hole. As you get more comfortable you'll be able to lower it more.

best of luck.

LarkspurCO
Aug. 1, 2011, 11:52 AM
I generally agree with your posts but can't say the same about this one. It's not a case of a rider with limitations riding a horse with limitations. It is the rider's unsteady hands jabbing the poor horse in his mouth and her bouncing seat on his hollow back that they should be working on.

Or they should be working on finding a more suitable mount, preferably of the gaited persuasion.

ThreeFigs
Aug. 1, 2011, 12:58 PM
Oh, I hear you, alibi_18!

This poor deluded lady has no idea that there are GOOD teachers with GOOD credentials, USDF or not, in her area.

SH/DH8 has stated that he attends clinics with ONE clinician twice a year here and elsewhere. That, IMO, is NOT ENOUGH TO DO HIM ANY GOOD. SH/DH8 needs weekly, if not daily, lessons to fix all that is wrong.

Heaven help the instructor that has such a student!

Appsolute
Aug. 1, 2011, 01:08 PM
I just went to spirt walks on waterwhateverhisnameis's website.

Literally it caused me to sit here slack jawed. Mouth agape at the horrible riding shown as proper example.

I don't know why this yahoo gets the time of day here. It is very clear that he does not know how to ride or train a horse properly. ANY ONE who has some real world experience can see this (which is most of coth).

The fact is there are crazies all throughout the world, and people who will flock to them and believe their word as gospel. This is no different then scientology or other fringe cults. THERE ARE PEOPLE OUT THERE THAT WILL BELIEVE ANYTHING. And will listen to few to change their minds.

I wouldn't try to make Gloria "see the light". She has chosen to believe her trainer (mentor, cult leader, how ever you want to identify him). He is a typical self proclaimed expert and healer, a "charismatic leader".

alibi_18
Aug. 1, 2011, 01:13 PM
Oh, I hear you, alibi_18!

The only thing there is to hear are crickets.

http://www.hartetoharte.org/MyNotations.html?entry=certain-members-of-the-chronicle

SillyHorse
Aug. 1, 2011, 01:17 PM
You know, the likes of Lendon Grey and Jane Savoie and many, many others wander through here. It would be a waste of their time (just as it is ours) to set him straight, but it could be humorous.

Darn those folks for being too classy to get in the mud with this maroon ;)
I doubt the OP has any idea who they are. She seems to think we are all rank beginners like her, who should be blinded by the light of Mr. Buck, as is she.

Bugs-n-Frodo
Aug. 1, 2011, 01:33 PM
What does he say?

He says that we should not work our horses in the same frame all of the time, but change the frame, maybe from a deeper frame to a long and low frame etc to help keep our horses supple. We should not be working them constantly in the frame we show in.

BTW, I am paraphrasing, NOT quoting.

fargaloo
Aug. 1, 2011, 02:06 PM
Appsolute, you nailed it -- this is about psychology.

There is a very small (but notable) subset of the COTH community of which Mr. Buck is a member. For these folks, their posts and online persona seem to contain the following:

1. An indignant belief in their own genius and the misguideness of almost everyone else;

2. Angry outbursts, sneering and condescension to others, while being morbidly sensitive to perceived slights;

3. Extensive irrelevant quoting of the dictionary (or the Bible) to support a point that is never clearly made;

4. Constant deflection when pressed on a point (credentials are never presented, but are constantly questioned of those who oppose the poster);

5. When really backed into a corner or hoisted on their own petard, they revert to silly humor or "just kidding" comments with extensive use of the winky-face (not so much Mr. Buck; a notable Parelli-ite comes to mind...);

6. Their only supporters are obvious sock-puppets, or beginners who have been duped.

Although I couldn't wade through his whole manifesto what emerged for me is this: what Mr. Buck says that is good is not original; and what is not original is not good. I didn't see much classical dressage but I did see a lot of evidence for a personality disorder.

fargaloo
Aug. 1, 2011, 02:25 PM
Oh, and OP -- if you are still reading:

I asked a question a while ago about retraining a WP horse to be an eventer and got lots of examples (with pictures) showing that it is not a magical feat after all:

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=259308

I know you said the magical feat was "being on the bit in the first (or second?) ride"... well, if the video is evidence of being correctly on the bit -- Houston, we have a problem....

I'm not trying to be nasty -- really. Kudos for still riding and wanting to learn at an age where many of us will have packed it in. But that is all the more reason to open your eyes and see that the emperor truly has no clothes.

gjperry
Aug. 1, 2011, 03:02 PM
Oh,Thank you, Valentina! You are right about how I am riding. If ever these other people would like to know what trauma I had been through before I started with Mr. Buck and would truly listen, then they would understand why Royal Sundust and I look the way we do in that Video. I have repeated to them, that it was only the 2nd lesson. We have worked on just what you talk about and we have come to be far more in harmony and balance. It has become a joy to ride. Yes, I am real and yes, I am 82 and yes, others in our facility have watched this slow but wonderful transformation and have been amazed at our progress. Thank you again for your tread. Gloria J. Perry

DutchDressageQueen
Aug. 1, 2011, 03:08 PM
I wonder what his next response is going to be...

DutchDressageQueen
Aug. 1, 2011, 03:15 PM
Quoting:

The perfect example of what is wrong with our country today. These represent the exact same attitudes of our politicians;

Pompous: self-important, pretentious,

Rude: offensive, lacking accuracy, primitive or uneducated,

Self-righteous: excessively insistent of one's rectitude,

Rectitude: moral uprightness,

Arrogant: aggressively assertive or presumptous, overbearing,

Disrespectful: lack of respect, discourteous,

These individuals on the COTH forum act in the exact same manner as our politicians, without integrity, without respect and showing malicious distrust.




Is he not the one acting like that?

fargaloo
Aug. 1, 2011, 03:45 PM
Thank you for your posts regarding this horse being lame.

Clearly sarcastic. I think this fits the bill for "disrespectful" and "arrogant".


I am going to use these posts to show how individuals - which would include judges - do not have a clue regarding how to visually see lameness.:eek:

The people on this board include vets, farriers, breeders, certified trainers and upper-level competitors. All of us, including carded judges don't have damn clue. Hmm... Pompous, arrogant, self-righteous? I'd add deluded and narcissistic.

(FWIW, I don't see a horse that is lame, but I do see a horse that is tense and possibly sore. This is not my point here; my point is the arrogance of saying "none of you has a damn clue" when you disagree. That is a pretty sweeping statement, and therefore, highly arrogant.)



:mad:Ok ----- The crap stops now! :mad:


Definitely rude; I'd say disrespectful as well....



Not one of you posters has a damn clue.


....

Aw heck, this is just shooting fish in a barrel. Not fun anymore.

Gloria, I am truly happy you are enjoying your horse and feeling that you are making progress. That's the most important thing here. Forgive us if we think that you are making progress in spite of the input of your mentor, not because of it.

canterhavenfarm
Aug. 1, 2011, 04:30 PM
Oh,Thank you, Valentina! You are right about how I am riding. If ever these other people would like to know what trauma I had been through before I started with Mr. Buck and would truly listen, then they would understand why Royal Sundust and I look the way we do in that Video. I have repeated to them, that it was only the 2nd lesson. We have worked on just what you talk about and we have come to be far more in harmony and balance. It has become a joy to ride. Yes, I am real and yes, I am 82 and yes, others in our facility have watched this slow but wonderful transformation and have been amazed at our progress. Thank you again for your tread. Gloria J. Perry

I was trying my best to stay out of this thread but this post brought me in.
Good for you, Gloria. If you have joy when riding your horse, then that is the goal. Just always be aware of you and the horse. Sometimes you can feel things that the ground observer cannot see. That is part of the bond with your horse! I know with my horse, who can get a bit tense in his back after being extra silly or overly energetic that day, that I feel it towards the end of our ride in how he moves. No one has ever noticed any variation in his movement but I can can feel the subtle change and that tells me needs a good massage or liniment rub after a ride. Or maybe my riding was not up to par that day and I need to fix me!
And thanks for your positive response the other poster for tips on improving riding position. That is point of these forums and discussions, IMO, to help each other improve! You are much more brave than I in that you put a video on the net. The most I have done is added pics of me riding to my FB but then only my limited number of friends get to see!

If you are going to post an update video, how about you post what you have done in your own words. It would give us a more personal perceptive of your journey!

moonriverfarm
Aug. 1, 2011, 04:38 PM
I was in New Orleans last weekend and I think they serve Spirit yolks at Marie Laveau's Egg and Pancake House of the Rising Sundance.

LarkspurCO
Aug. 1, 2011, 05:42 PM
He says that we should not work our horses in the same frame all of the time, but change the frame, maybe from a deeper frame to a long and low frame etc to help keep our horses supple. We should not be working them constantly in the frame we show in.

BTW, I am paraphrasing, NOT quoting.

Thank you. I think I have a DVD somewhere of him and Janet Brown Foy teaching a symposium. I'll have to go back and watch it again.

Bugs-n-Frodo
Aug. 1, 2011, 05:43 PM
Thank you. I think I have a DVD somewhere of him and Janet Brown Foy teaching a symposium. I'll have to go back and watch it again.

:lol: That is like, my favorite "program" ever. I refer back to it frequently.

ThreeFigs
Aug. 1, 2011, 10:54 PM
Yes, I've attended two Foy/Peters symposia in person. Both excellent! I have the DVD's, too.

Has SH/DH8 attended any such clinic or symposium? Doubt it.

gjperry
Aug. 3, 2011, 11:50 AM
To Canterhavenfarm - Thank you for the very intelligent reply. It is so refreshing to have a thread that does not bash. When my next video is posted, I will give a short summary of what I has happened to me. Even since that last video, I have learned so much and am having much better rides. It would be very nice to exchange information with you and Valentina but not on this site. Nothing I say here is taken seriously and my credibility is always attacked. If you are interested in doing this, you can go to my web-site: www.harmoniousconnections.
With Joy and Beauty,
Gloria J. Perry

WBLover
Aug. 3, 2011, 01:36 PM
Gloria, it is not your credibility AT ALL that is being attacked. But rather your trainer's. We are just trying to ask you to open your eyes and think outside of his world.

Bugs-n-Frodo
Aug. 3, 2011, 02:21 PM
Gloria, I have a ton of respect for you because horses are my passion, and I pray that, when I am 82, I am still able to ride. If I can't ride, I have other plans on order to keep myself involved with horses because I can't imagine, nor do I want to imagine, my life without them.

"I ask you this question - Who among you can take a Western Pleasure Trained horse (head almost to the ground) or a young green horse and on the second lesson have that horse completely and constantly in proper frame and on the bit? I guarantee NONE of you can!"

However, with the above statement, it seems to be that it is YOU who is attacking the credibility of others on this board. Without knowing the experience and knowledge of the other posters on this BB, you have made a blanket statement that, I believe, is questioning the credibility of the other members of this BB. Now, I have no problem with you in anyway, as I said, I actually have a lot of respect for you, but having busted my bum to get where I am now, I resent a statement like that. I have retrained horses from other disciplines to dressage and am currently bringing along my own horse, whom I bred myself, started myself and have done most of his training myself. Based on that alone, I can tell you, being properly "on the bit" takes more than one or two rides if done correctly. There is a whole lot more involved in that process than can be covered in 1 or 2 rides. The fact that Buck has you believing that is not true is what is bothering me. He is selling you a bit of goods, and I think that is sad and I think you deserve better. Also, one the the keys factors of "being on the bit" is actually having a BIT to be ON! Now, if you have personal reasons for not wanting to use a bit with your horse, that is fine, he is your horse that is your decision. I think what people object to here is that Buck touts himself a classical dressage trainer, yes, the examples we see of his riding/teach prove otherwise and based on that, many folks believe his greater skill is talking people out of their hard earned cash. I am sorry, I am not trying to offend you in the least, I am just trying to explain to you everyone's objections here.

DutchDressageQueen
Aug. 3, 2011, 02:31 PM
Gloria, I have a ton of respect for you because horses are my passion, and I pray that, when I am 82, I am still able to ride. If I can't ride, I have other plans on order to keep myself involved with horses because I can't imagine, nor do I want to imagine, my life without them.

"I ask you this question - Who among you can take a Western Pleasure Trained horse (head almost to the ground) or a young green horse and on the second lesson have that horse completely and constantly in proper frame and on the bit? I guarantee NONE of you can!"

However, with the above statement, it seems to be that it is YOU who is attacking the credibility of others on this board. Without knowing the experience and knowledge of the other posters on this BB, you have made a blanket statement that, I believe, is questioning the credibility of the other members of this BB. Now, I have no problem with you in anyway, as I said, I actually have a lot of respect for you, but having busted my bum to get where I am now, I resent a statement like that. I have retrained horses from other disciplines to dressage and am currently bringing along my own horse, whom I bred myself, started myself and have done most of his training myself. Based on that alone, I can tell you, being properly "on the bit" takes more than one or two rides if done correctly. There is a whole lot more involved in that process than can be covered in 1 or 2 rides. The fact that Buck has you believing that is not true is what is bothering me. He is selling you a bit of goods, and I think that is sad and I think you deserve better. Also, one the the keys factors of "being on the bit" is actually having a BIT to be ON! Now, if you have personal reasons for not wanting to use a bit with your horse, that is fine, he is your horse that is your decision. I think what people object to hear is that Buck touts himself a classical dressage trainer, yes, the examples we see of his riding/teach prove otherwise and based on that, many folks believe his greater skill is talking people out of their hard earned cash. I am sorry, I am not trying to offend you in the least, I am just trying to explain to you everyone's objects here.

And you explained it Very well.:)

Thoroughbred1201
Aug. 3, 2011, 05:15 PM
Huh. There are many ways to ride and enjoy horses. Just about as many as there are people. That said, anybody who says they have the 'one, right way' immediately set me on edge.

And to those people who say there is only one right way, and they know it and nobody else does (especially if you have to spend $$$ for their special device - the Parillli's come to mind as well as Spirit Horse), my comment is that 'People have the right to be stupid, and some people exercise that right daily.' Or, 'a Fool and their money are soon parted'.

However, if a fool enjoys the process of spending that money, have fun and may you live forever in ignorance and belief of your superiority.

ThreeFigs
Aug. 3, 2011, 07:48 PM
^ This deserves repeating.

PT Barnum KNEW he was hornswoggling folks. ("There's a sucker born every minute".) I can't get into Buck's head to KNOW if he KNOWS he's a charlatan, or if HE THINKS he really does have the ONE RIGHT WAY. (Just ooged myself out at the very idea of being in SH/DH8's head -- OOGY!)

I'm with you TB1201 -- that sort of claim sets me on edge, too. I had (briefly) such teachers in the past. Their riff got tiresome in a hurry.

Ms Perry, you've lived a fine long life and I applaud you for pursuing your riding passion at age 82, but it's NEVER too late to learn the RIGHT way to ride. Mr Buck has indeed sold you a bill of goods.

WHEN can we expect to see your miraculous video? Perhaps it will prove me wrong. Please stop teasing us and present the proof of your improvement.

Petstorejunkie
Aug. 3, 2011, 08:45 PM
it's NEVER too late to learn the RIGHT way to ride. boy, ain't that the truth!

alicen
Aug. 3, 2011, 08:58 PM
I can't get into Buck's head to KNOW if he KNOWS he's a charlatan, or if HE THINKS he really does have the ONE RIGHT WAY.

Brave of you to try Beasmom, but I'm sure any horse you ride would advise you not to go there.

dragonharte8
Aug. 3, 2011, 09:19 PM
Charlaton: a person falsely claiming a special knowledge or skill

Can be applied to many of you :D

Reddfox
Aug. 3, 2011, 09:24 PM
Charlaton: a person falsely claiming a special knowledge or skill

Can be applied to many of you :D

Beasmom spelled it correctly. And I don't believe she ever claimed to be the one true light of dressage.

mickeydoodle
Aug. 3, 2011, 10:33 PM
copied in whole from the source below, spelling included- amazingly apt to this discussion


Charlatan
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For other uses, see Charlatan (disambiguation).
"Swindler" redirects here. For other uses, see Swindler (disambiguation).
Look up charlatan in Wiktionary, the free dictionary.


Pietro Longhi: The Charlatan, 1757
A charlatan (also called swindler or mountebank) is a person practicing quackery or some similar confidence trick in order to obtain money, fame or other advantages via some form of pretense or deception.
The word comes from French charlatan, a seller of medicines who might advertise his presence with music and an outdoor stage show. The best known of the Parisian charlatans was Tabarin, who set up a stage in the Place Dauphin, Paris in 1618, and whose commedia dell'arte inspired skits and whose farces inspired Molière. The word can also be traced to Spanish; charlatán, an indiscreetly talkative person, a chatterbox. Ultimately, etymologists trace "charlatan" from either the Italian ciarlare, to prattle; or from Cerretano, a resident of Cerreto, a village in Umbria, known for its quacks.[1]
Contents [hide]
1 Details
2 Famous charlatans
3 See also
4 Specialty studies
5 References
[edit]Details

In usage, a subtle difference is drawn between the charlatan and other kinds of confidence people. The charlatan is usually a salesperson. He does not try to create a personal relationship with his marks, or set up an elaborate hoax using roleplaying. Rather, the person called a charlatan is being accused of resorting to quackery, pseudoscience, or some knowingly employed bogus means of impressing people in order to swindle his victims by selling them worthless nostrums and similar goods or services that will not deliver on the promises made for them. The word calls forth the image of an old-time medicine show operator, who has long since left town by the time the people who bought his "snake oil" or similarly named tonic realize that it does not perform as advertised.


Hieronymous Bosch paints a scene of a Renaissance mountebank fleecing incredulous gamblers.
In reported spiritual communications, a charlatan is a person who fakes evidence that a spirit is "making contact" with the medium and seekers. This has been challenged successfully by skeptics who wrote passwords and gave them to people of trust, containing a password that should be spoken by the person if he ever tried to make contact, to validate the truth of the claim. No such claim has been verified. Notable people who have successfully debunked the claims of purported supernatural mediums include Brazilian writer Monteiro Lobato and magician Houdini.
Synonyms for "charlatan" include "mountebank", "shyster", and "quack". "Mountebank" comes from the Italian montambanco or montimbanco based on the phrase monta in banco - literally referring to the action of a seller of dubious medicines getting up on a bench to address his audience of potential customers.[2]
"Quack" is a reference to "quackery" or the practice of dubious medicine.
[edit]Famous charlatans

John R. Brinkley, the "goat-gland doctor" who implanted goat glands as a means of curing male impotence, helped pioneer both American and Mexican radio broadcasting, and twice ran unsuccessfully for governor of Kansas.
Albert Abrams, the advocate of radionics and other similar electrical quackery who was active in the early twentieth century.[3]
Italian Alessandro Cagliostro (real name Giuseppe Balsamo) who claimed to be a count.
The mystical Count of St. Germain.
Charles Ponzi, for whom the "Ponzi scheme" is named, a scam that relies on a "pyramid" of "investors" who contribute money to a fraudulent programme.
[edit]Se

wcporter
Aug. 3, 2011, 10:39 PM
Ummm, it's been a week. Was there ever any intention of actually posting this updated "new and improved Sundust" video? :confused:

meupatdoes
Aug. 3, 2011, 10:43 PM
Ummm, it's been a week. Was there ever any intention of actually posting this updated "new and improved Sundust" video? :confused:

The "Spirit Firewire Cable" seems to be broken.

:cry:

mickeydoodle
Aug. 3, 2011, 10:43 PM
methinks not

ThreeFigs
Aug. 4, 2011, 12:12 AM
Thank you for that enlightening definition, mickydoodle!

There will be NO video. Just more attention-seeking by our old pal, the Reverend.

dragonharte8
Aug. 4, 2011, 12:38 AM
Learned members of COTH;
FYI - What a person writes can place them in legal jeopardy.

Libel:
A published false statement damaging to a person's reputation
A false and defamatory written statement
A thing that brings discredit by misrepresentation

Atypical
Aug. 4, 2011, 01:29 AM
Pretty sure you're not going to be able to get anyone for libel on this board. That's no judgement to either side, that's just a fact of life.

Eventer90210
Aug. 4, 2011, 05:25 AM
An actual, court approved definition, I think is appropriate, given what I've gleaned about you the short time I've been on this bulletin board.

561 S.E.2d 276

"Libel is defined as written defamation." Market America, Inc. v. Christman-Orth, 135 N.C. App. 143, 149, 520 S.E.2d 570, 576 (1999).

The three classes of libel long recognized under North Carolina law are:

(1) publications obviously defamatory which are called libel per se;

(2) publications susceptible of two interpretations one of which is defamatory and the other not; and

(3) publications not obviously defamatory but when considered with innuendo, colloquium, and explanatory circumstances become libelous, which are termed libels per quod.



http://www.dba-oracle.com/internet_cyberlibel_usa_cases_message_boards_forum s.htm

Just found after a quick little minute long search on google.

But yes, I am bored so sorry for the (probably useless) post that will probably just amount to my waste of time. Stupid insomnia...

:D

Oh and there's already been plenty of court cases where things said over the internet are held to a much higher scrutiney of 'libelous', 'defamatory', or 'malicious'. Just sayin..

Oh and another aside, I apologize that this is just N. Carolina case rulings v. Supreme Court. I didn't feel like delving that deeply, but the debator in me cringes at the half-arsed 'research'. ;)

Bogey2
Aug. 4, 2011, 06:31 AM
FYI - What a person writes can place them in legal jeopardy

yes and you should also consider the legal jeopardy you put yourself in with your false claims:lol:

DutchDressageQueen
Aug. 4, 2011, 07:23 AM
yes and you should also consider the legal jeopardy you put yourself in with your false claims:lol:

:yes::lol::lol::lol:

CFFarm
Aug. 4, 2011, 10:50 AM
Ya know, when I was first riding I thought certain trainers were the "be all" and "end all" of how to do it. The more one gets exposed to all the numerous trainers out there and, more important, educated by horses themselves, one learns that they never knows it all. At least rational people do. Maybe given enough experience the trainer in question will come to the realization that his is not the only way and that, in fact, others do know more than he. If he wants to ride and market his gadgets, go for it. This IS America, after all, but to put down judges and other trainers as not knowing what they are doing is just silly and alienating (not a great marketing concept if nothing else). And shows a lack of equine theory.

As far as the rider I would hope she would open herself upto the bigger training world in the time she has left to ride. She is certainly entitled to have her own opinions. I only suggest she educate herself. Best of luck to her. JMHO

meupatdoes
Aug. 4, 2011, 10:59 AM
Um, I think you need to first HAVE a reputation for being as good at Steffen Peters before other people saying you AREN'T can damage it.

You are the one going around saying everybody else is incompetent. Not the other way around.

MyssMyst
Aug. 4, 2011, 11:29 AM
Learned members of COTH;
FYI - What a person writes can place them in legal jeopardy.



I'll take Legal Terminology for 500, Alex!

wcporter
Aug. 4, 2011, 11:40 AM
The "Spirit Firewire Cable" seems to be broken.

:cry:

Hahaha! :D

and still, no video

Booo! :(

SillyHorse
Aug. 4, 2011, 01:03 PM
I'll take Legal Terminology for 500, Alex!
:lol:

But seriously, I feel sorry for this poor woman and for her horse, too.

mp
Aug. 4, 2011, 01:32 PM
the person called a charlatan is being accused of resorting to quackery, pseudoscience, or some knowingly employed bogus means of impressing people in order to swindle his victims by selling them worthless nostrums and similar goods or services that will not deliver on the promises made for them.

Charles Ponzi, for whom the "Ponzi scheme" is named, a scam that relies on a "pyramid" of "investors" who contribute money to a fraudulent programme.


Excellent! It's all clear now. Rev. Buck is a charlatan; Parelli Natural Horsemanship is a Ponzi scheme. :D

LarkspurCO
Aug. 4, 2011, 02:10 PM
I wonder if this thread will still be around "8 months later" ...?

Carol Ames
Aug. 4, 2011, 02:27 PM
I'm sorry I never saw the video,:no: this a description of Centered Riding understand how to use our bodies and the effect it has on the horse:cool:

Thoroughbred1201
Aug. 4, 2011, 06:41 PM
I'd love to see the new video - I bet the horse is much improved. The horse in the original video did indeed go better with the bitless bridle. But I think that is because he was no long bothered by the riders hands as much as the equipment change itself. He could have been ridden in a halter and had the same change.

Bouncing hands jarring a bit on the bars of the mouth is going to cause inversion - no matter what bit is being used. Bouncing hands with no bit at all will indeed cause the horses to relax as he isn't being 'grabbed' each stride. Add the racing martingale, and you a 'steady' encouragment to stretch in place of bad, bouncing hands. Gadgets are just that - gadgets. And in this case, it showed the flaw.

I think what I disagree with, is that the gadget is seen as the complete end. All fixed. No more problem. Instead, the gadget should be used to show where the real problem lies - with the rider - where most training problems usually do. Then, once that problem is fixed, there is not more need for the 'gadget'.

I guess I do see why the USEF wouldn't accept the bitless bridle. It's a crutch to avoid the real problem. Use it at home to learn, then transition to a real bridle if you want to show. If you want to just have fun, and your horse is happier, the whatever floats your boat.

Melissa.Van Doren
Aug. 4, 2011, 09:57 PM
Um, I think you need to first HAVE a reputation for being as good as Steffen Peters before other people saying you AREN'T can damage it.

:yes::lol:

DutchDressageQueen
Aug. 5, 2011, 07:36 AM
I guess I do see why the USEF wouldn't accept the bitless bridle. It's a crutch to avoid the real problem. Use it at home to learn, then transition to a real bridle if you want to show. If you want to just have fun, and your horse is happier, the whatever floats your boat.

:yes:

MistyBlue
Aug. 5, 2011, 08:36 AM
"1) n. to publish in print (including pictures), writing or broadcast through radio, television or film, an untruth about another which will do harm to that person or his/her reputation, by tending to bring the target into ridicule, hatred, scorn or contempt of others. Libel is the written or broadcast form of defamation, distinguished from slander which is oral defamation. It is a tort (civil wrong) making the person or entity (like a newspaper, magazine or political organization) open to a lawsuit for damages by the person who can prove the statement about him/her was a lie. Publication need only be to one person, but it must be a statement which claims to be fact, and is not clearly identified as an opinion. "

There's the legal definition of libel. :)

rcloisonne
Aug. 5, 2011, 11:24 AM
There's the legal definition of libel. :)Apparently, it also depends on where you are. Interesting...


Truth is no longer a defense in some private-figure libel cases in Massachusetts where the "ill will" of the speaker is established -- at least according to a federal appellate opinion issued last week. The court was interpreting Massachusetts state law, not federal law.

The case involved a lawsuit brought by a former Staples employee against his employer. Alan Noonan sued Staples for libel after the company’s executive vice president sent an e-mail to 1,500 employees alerting them that Noonan had been fired for violating the company’s travel and expense policy.

http://jourlaw.blogspot.com/2009/04/truth-no-longer-defense-in-some-libel.html

MistyBlue
Aug. 5, 2011, 11:30 AM
Ahh, but opinion isn't libelous. Even in MA. :winkgrin:

Neither is stating that facts given by someone else aren't actually factual.

Regarding the Staples employee I was surprised to see that judgement too. The man was fired. Had they kept it to an email only listing terminated employees without the reason for the termination...or sent out an email that falsifying travel and expenses would lead to termination without naming anyone, they'd probably have been fine.

esdressage
Aug. 5, 2011, 05:30 PM
Just noticing that the 8 months later video has STILL not surfaced… things that make you go hmmmm (as if there weren't enough already).

LarkspurCO
Aug. 5, 2011, 07:02 PM
I see that Part 1 of the original video has surfaced. The plot thickens.

http://youtu.be/0AkoxIJXVzo

I hope that 8 months later, Gloria is no longer hanging off the right side of her horse. But the dragon never once mentioned it, so I have a feeling it was not addressed.

Moogles
Aug. 5, 2011, 07:21 PM
In watching part 1 it's mentioned he could get 25K for this horse from that video? While he looks to be a quiet boy I just don't see that at all. Make me think I should have asked more for my mare!;)

CaitlinandTheBay
Aug. 5, 2011, 08:34 PM
In watching part 1 it's mentioned he could get 25K for this horse from that video? While he looks to be a quiet boy I just don't see that at all. Make me think I should have asked more for my mare!;)


Saints are worth their weight in gold.

cuatx55
Aug. 5, 2011, 08:39 PM
That horse? 25K? in what fairytale land? You couldn't pay me to take that lame horse....poor thing!

I can't stomach any more of the vid, so if they address why the rider is pushing/grinding into the saddle with the seat please enlighten me.

DutchDressageQueen
Aug. 5, 2011, 08:49 PM
That horse? 25K? in what fairytale land? You couldn't pay me to take that lame horse


:yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes:

Bugs-n-Frodo
Aug. 5, 2011, 08:55 PM
I am absolutely speechless. :eek:

Bugs-n-Frodo
Aug. 5, 2011, 08:57 PM
I can't stomach any more of the vid, so if they address why the rider is pushing/grinding into the saddle with the seat please enlighten me.

Never addressed but he did shorten her stirrups a hole and explain that she needs to twist her ankle to keep her toes turned in.

MyssMyst
Aug. 5, 2011, 09:06 PM
In watching part 1 it's mentioned he could get 25K for this horse from that video? While he looks to be a quiet boy I just don't see that at all. Make me think I should have asked more for my mare!;)

Holy cow, he may be a saint, but he ain't worth 25k. I had to quit watching, my head hurts.

alicen
Aug. 5, 2011, 09:16 PM
LarkspurCO, I believe Gloria's listing is the result of weighting the outside seat bone.

mswillie
Aug. 5, 2011, 09:24 PM
25K?? The man is blowing so much smoke up their collective behinds. And speaking of smoke they must grow some pretty decent stuff up there in the Utah hills if anyone really thinks they could get $25,000.00 for that horse.

Carol Ames
Aug. 5, 2011, 10:19 PM
I’ve watched the videos, part 1 and 2; and am very confused:eek:; what are we supposed to be watching/ looking for...:confused:? What is being taught? I hear words:yes:; but, see no changes occurring:no:; i don’t know if the horse is sore:sadsmile:, or a “leg mover:(, or both; the toe dragging is alarming:eek:; also the rider’s’ sitting crooked :eek:; which, results in the left leg gripping, calf and heel:yes:; maybe this an improvement but, from what:confused:? I am still looking for the horse going “consistently on the bit; was that this video?

dragonharte8
Aug. 5, 2011, 10:44 PM
The comment regarding $25,000 was NOT about the horse in the video, it was referencing a different horse.

The point of these videos is show what was at the beginning.
The horse was basically layed off for the winter and started up in April. Please remember that this horse had emotional issues that have had to be dealt with.
A newer video is being uploaded. In it there are still errors, however, since filming it, Gloria finally figured out to correct some of them. We also found out the problem with her left leg and have got it lengthening.
These videos are not about achieving perfection, they are a visual of the journey, a journey not of speed but rather of patience.

alibi_18
Aug. 5, 2011, 10:48 PM
We also found out the problem with her left leg and have got it lengthening.
.

So it was lame! :o



Did you use an ankle chain to fix the problem?

cuatx55
Aug. 5, 2011, 10:49 PM
The horse probably has "emotional issues" because its sore somewhere......poor horse.

My horse was flinging her head like the 1st video, and whatyaknow, she needed her teeth done. Problem solved.....

ToN Farm
Aug. 5, 2011, 10:56 PM
No matter the teacher or the horse, I don't think Gloria has enough core strength to support herself without balancing on the reins. I'm guessing the reason she isn't posting is because she can't.

mswillie
Aug. 5, 2011, 11:04 PM
So it was lame! :o



Did you use an ankle chain to fix the problem?

I think he means Gloria's left leg. She seems to buying what this guy is selling but I think even she would get a little miffed at being made to wear an ankle chain.

dressurpferd01
Aug. 5, 2011, 11:30 PM
Mr. Buck, perhaps you'd like to address the fact that you have pictures in your "on the bit frame" PDF file on your website that are not yours and that were blatantly stolen from another trainer's website from one of their clinics. Copyright infringement is illegal you know.

ThreeFigs
Aug. 5, 2011, 11:34 PM
I hear ya, Larkspur. That starboard list bothers me, too. The problem with Gloria's left leg is, she's not sitting evenly on the horse. That far off to the right, of COURSE her left leg is going to be shortened and gripping on the horse's side. Bless her, she needs a competent teacher.

I don't understand the weighting of the outside hip. Can anyone explain?

LarkspurCO
Aug. 6, 2011, 01:10 AM
OMG. I think the long-awaited "after" video is here. Someone, please watch it and let us know.

http://youtu.be/Wa2ptsekI-4

LarkspurCO
Aug. 6, 2011, 01:20 AM
OK, I watched the first few minutes. Dragon, why are you yelling at her to stop pumping her arms? Have you never heard of a "following hand"? Gloria had a nice following hand going at the walk you yell at her? :confused:

Good lord. What you are demonstrating and scolding her for at the 4:15 mark is exactly what she should be doing for the horse at the walk.

Gloria, I can imagine what a nice rider you could be with a real trainer.

indyblue
Aug. 6, 2011, 01:44 AM
OK so Ive just got to 7.42mins in and I can't watch anymore.First thing Gloria your horse is dead lame behind and no amount of being yelled at to unlock yourself (say what?) is going to help that.Second of all I'm cyber punching you in your big ,fat gob Rev Buck for talking to Gloria in that manner.That is not teaching,that is being a disrespectful arse. I'm all for a bit of instructor toughness .I can't stand wishy washy instruction but you Rev Buck are losing your temper at an 82yrold woman who is clearly doing her very best with very little instruction and what instruction she is getting is crappola.You Rev Buck are a snake oil salesman and Gloria please don't let your remaining riding years be with this man.

ThreeFigs
Aug. 6, 2011, 02:09 AM
Agree completely with Larkspur and indyblue.

There's too much of the "Dragon" in this video and very little "Harte".

It's more like Elder Abuse than instruction. A bit more patience and a lot less bombast from The Reverend would put this nice lady at ease much quicker.

LarkspurCO
Aug. 6, 2011, 02:17 AM
Well said.

I made it to the end, for this choice piece of advice: "You shake your reins to maintain the rhythm."

alicen
Aug. 6, 2011, 02:19 AM
Have I got this right? At the walk the rider is supposed to lock up the elbows and shoulders and shake the reins with the fingers? And then he yells because the horse backs up?

Gloria, both you and the horse deserve better. There's no spirit, there's no harte, and there's no reverence here.

alicen
Aug. 6, 2011, 03:17 AM
In video #1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AkoxIJXVzo&feature=related at 3:11 he contradicts what he says in video #3.

I'm beginning to think that sh/dh thinks horses are supposed to go with an inverted neck.

Lost_at_C
Aug. 6, 2011, 05:48 AM
Gloria, please please please take just a single lesson with any other instructor in your area. I think that will open your eyes to the way that this man is taking shameful advantage of you. I have withheld my full opinion so far because I had no real evidence of his ability - but this latest video would lead almost any horseperson to believe that he is ignorant, wrong and dangerous. I've worked with horses, riders and trainers from a variety of backgrounds over the years and I have never seen anything so contradictory of the basic principles of equitation.

You actually have good instincts as a rider, but SH/DH is telling you to contradict them in a way that is counterproductive for both you and your horse. I suspect he likes making you feel dependent on him... you are not doing things so badly as he suggests. It is HIS directions that are throwing you off. You could be doing so much more, and having so much more FUN, with some knowledgable instruction. At the very least, thumb through one of the books by Sally swift (Centered Riding) or Sylvia Loch (Classical Seat). You can buy them here: http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0955629829/ref=sr_1_2_olp?ie=UTF8&qid=1312623981&sr=8-2&condition=new). FWIW, this is not about riding in a bitless bridle - it's about riding EFFECTIVELY no matter what tack you choose to put on your horse.

I am posting this because I really want to help you - I hope it really is YOU posting to COTH and not someone else posing as you. I could care less if SH/DH continues to peddle his wares to the unsuspecting masses, but I can't stomach him taking such blatant advantage of someone like yourself whose heart is clearly in the right place.

Bogey2
Aug. 6, 2011, 06:16 AM
It's more like Elder Abuse than instruction.
I was thinking the same thing.
Gloria your horse is adorable, I loved it when he was "mugging" the "dragon" for a treat. Please listen to the others here, you need someone to advocate for you and you need to advocate for your horse.

partlycloudy
Aug. 6, 2011, 06:46 AM
Ugh, couldn't watch the whole thing either. The woman has good hand position, following the head with a nice line from mouth to elbow and this 'instructor' is yelling at her to quit pumping and lower her hands?:no::no:
Can we arrange a coth kidnapping for gloria and her horse?

alibi_18
Aug. 6, 2011, 07:04 AM
I think he means Gloria's left leg. She seems to buying what this guy is selling but I think even she would get a little miffed at being made to wear an ankle chain.

I read too fast (and had a bad day) and so was 'happy' that someone had took care of the horse's lameness...my bad, I should have known better!

Seeing the new video, I'm sorry to see that Gloria is wearing an ankle chain and SH/DH is the end ball. Restrcting her to become a good rider!

SH/DH is SO rude and NOT teaching you! Run free asap and as far as you can!

Eggplant_Dressing
Aug. 6, 2011, 07:26 AM
Gloria, good for you for riding at age 82, and I only hope we all are able to ride at your age. You are an inspiration.

I did watch both videos and think you would benefit greatly by trying other trainers out in your area. This man will only confuse your aids to a point that you may never have confidence as a rider.

You are a doll to allow videos as these critics are tough, but I do think both you and your horse would benefit from a more experienced, honest, and kindly speaking trainer.

Galloping Granny
Aug. 6, 2011, 08:35 AM
My husband just saw me watching this video and came in to see it. He finally said, "How can you stand to watch that? Are you trying to torture yourself? I've never seen anything so painfully wrong in my life! That poor woman!" Well said, DH!

Petstorejunkie
Aug. 6, 2011, 08:41 AM
The Parelli outake video made more logical sense. I'm still wondering who he learned from....? Anyone know?

rcloisonne
Aug. 6, 2011, 09:25 AM
And please, please, please get that horse checked by a vet. He's very lame. Even his fronts are tossing up dirt from the toe first landings. :no:

carolprudm
Aug. 6, 2011, 09:45 AM
OK, as probably the oldest poster in this thread except Gloriaand resident expert in howtodothingswrong , I'll bite.

Gloria, you are sitting on your tailbone in a chair seat. Your seatbones need to land in the deepest point of your saddle and point straight down. When you think of the part of your bottom that is in contact with the saddle it should be the area from the seatbones forward towards your pubic bone. That will help bring your shoulders hip and heal into a verticle alignment.

Your stirrups are uneven, with the right one longer and you seem to be collapsing to the right. Are you compensating for a hip problem?

I'm glad to see you posting more but you need to post for a bigger trot. You should think of thrusting your pubic bone towards your horse's ears. This takes quad and core strength. Do you have a Curves Smart in your area? The Curves Smart program is great for helping women get more fit .

I totally disagree with Mr Bucks instructions about your hands.

You should hold your reins in your fists with your thumb on top. You have a tendency to "piano" hands. Sally Swift has a great analogy. You want to think of holding a little bird in each hand. You don't want to crush the birds so it's not a white knuckle fist but you don't want them to escape either. And you don't want to bang their heads together. And at the walk (and canter) you most certainly DO want the following motion to come from your elbows.

At the trot your hands should stay still but as you post the change in the angle in your elbow matches the change in the angle between the angle between your body and your hips. Try this: sit on a firm chair with your feet on the floor and fists on your knees. Keeping your fists on your knees, stand up, using yor quads. Notice how the bend in your elbows changes.

And please PLEASE find better instruction. Mr Buck is doing you no favors. Life is to short to waste on bad instruction.

You might find a good instructor here
http://www.utahdressagesociety.net/barn_trainer_list.htm

In the meantime check out Sally Swift's books Centered Riding and Mary Wanless books particularly Ride with your Mind Essentials and her two Masterclass books. (Yes I know I have a HUGE problem with her in a clinic situation but her books and videos are good) And sign up for Jane Savoie's newsletters at www.janesavoie.com (http://www.janesavoie.com/). She is incredible generous and supportive.

esdressage
Aug. 6, 2011, 10:12 AM
Berating a woman who is trying to learn to ride her horse better is not instruction, it's cruelty.

Here's what I think. This video was taken AFTER the original post in this thread and he's getting mean and angry hoping to display some magikal transformation (which of course his instruction can't produce). Sad.

Gloria, you are obviously loyal and patient. But no matter our age, we need to do what's best for our horses, which means getting the right instruction to help us ride them well, for their comfort and development. You do look to have some lovely natural tendencies in your riding that another instructor can help you build upon rather than destroy.

alicen
Aug. 6, 2011, 10:25 AM
Here's what I think. This video was taken AFTER the original post in this thread and he's getting mean and angry hoping to display some magikal transformation (which of course his instruction can't produce). Sad

Exactly. Yell at the student to cover up the inadequate teaching skills and knowledge.

carolprudm
Aug. 6, 2011, 10:36 AM
Exactly. Yell at the student to cover up the inadequate teaching skills and knowledge.
And then post it on the internet for all the world to see....and complain and whine when people say how bad it is

King's Ransom
Aug. 6, 2011, 01:43 PM
Just want to say that I want to be Gloria when I grow up ...but with my lovely Miss Dana as my trainer!

Wow -- just being able to get on and off when you're 82 is terrific! You have definitely inspired me (I am only 54)!

I think you're doing beautifully in many ways, but I agree with the others here -- time to dump that loud-mouthed trainer.

I have a dear friend (who also is 82, but unfortunately suffers from Alzheimer's now) who rode well into her 70s, once told me -- a gentle voice and a soft hand make for a good horse. That fellow has NEITHER!

Please -- take your dear horse and your lovely spirit and find a suitable trainer. That guy is no good, really. And he's a jerk. Find someone with a gentle voice and a soft hand and you will find your riding becomes soft and gentle as well.

Bugs-n-Frodo
Aug. 6, 2011, 02:23 PM
Gloria, I have a lot of respect for you, as do most of the other people who are chiming in on this thread. I CHALLENGE you to take a lesson with a real dressage instructor and I am sorry to say, Buck is not. EVERYTHING he says to you on the video, I think, "What is he talking about??" He tells you things that, in my 32 years of riding, I have never ever heard from another trainer.

Maybe you think I am full of it, and, that is your right. However, I work with two different instructors, both German trained (one is German and here for a college education) and both have brought along horses from the beginning to upper levels and Grand Prix. I have brought my own horse from starting him under saddle to training at 2nd and 3rd level and we are not stopping there. A GOOD TRAINER is PRICELESS. Also, I truly believe that a good trainer also rides, they they can ride beyond the level that they teach and that they should be more than willing to demonstrate that. If they can no longer ride due to injury or something else, fine, then I would want to see proof (video, awards, certifications, pictures etc) that they rode in the past and rode well beyond my level.

I realize that you feel some loyalty to Buck, as I do my trainers, but I think you will be surprised what you see when you get out and watch other trainers. My trainers NEVER discourage me from going to a clinic with another trainer, BTW. I also teach lesson and I never discourage my students from taking lessons from others either. Go audit a clinic with a good dressage trainer, watch some youtube videos of dressage trainers instructing, anything, just so you can see that there are some REALLY good instructors out there.

Carol Ames
Aug. 6, 2011, 02:24 PM
don't understand the weighting of the outside hip. Can anyone explain? _______Some of the Swedes, Lindgren, Ljundquist, Blixen Finecke talked of weighting the outside hip , "bun control" but, actually doing it results in very crooked seats as you see here; it is more a "thought process" than "doing; "if someone were to have her balance/ sit on both seat bones;) at the halt and simply "allow her leg to lengthen, releasing at the hip and inner thigh her leg would lengthen dramatically:cool:; basic Centered Riding bodywork;);:yes:

Fillabeana
Aug. 6, 2011, 02:24 PM
I just can't watch that.

If there was ever an advertisement, or guide, for how NOT to choose an instructor, or how a riding lesson should NOT go...this is it. In spades.

...where do you start...the religious, cult, nobody-else-can-accomplish-this facet, the majikal training devices for sale that are re-named speshul versions of tack that already exists, the horse that is ok at a walk but lame at a trot, the consistent verbal abuse toward the rider...(now, I'm all for an instructor getting firm, especially with the rider's blessing- some students do fine with this kind of instruction- but this is verbal abuse.)

alicen
Aug. 6, 2011, 03:13 PM
If your going to yell, sh/dh, make sure you yell the right things.

Moogles
Aug. 6, 2011, 03:25 PM
The comment regarding $25,000 was NOT about the horse in the video, it was referencing a different horse.

The point of these videos is show what was at the beginning.
The horse was basically layed off for the winter and started up in April. Please remember that this horse had emotional issues that have had to be dealt with.
A newer video is being uploaded. In it there are still errors, however, since filming it, Gloria finally figured out to correct some of them. We also found out the problem with her left leg and have got it lengthening.
These videos are not about achieving perfection, they are a visual of the journey, a journey not of speed but rather of patience.


On the Part 1 video at the 1:14 min mark "you know how much we can sell that horse for with that video, 25 grand." Then you talk to the woman video taping about how she isn't wealthy and she said it's not about the money, "the money isn't whats important".

Listen, in that context it sure sound like you are talking about this horse in this video. I haven't said a thing about your training or technique, nor will I, however it sure sound like you are referencing this horse.

OldMorgans
Aug. 6, 2011, 03:31 PM
Well said.

I made it to the end, for this choice piece of advice: "You shake your reins to maintain the rhythm."

A little bird told me the video has been saved off somewhere, just in case it "disappears."

"Shake your reins"--really??!!:eek:
I haven't had time to watch the new video. But it sounds like nothing has improved over the first one which gave me indigestion.
I plan to be riding when I am 82, and beyond, and am really sorry to see the OP with this guy (I shall leave it at "guy". What I really call him is not at all polite or anything to publish in public.) She is wasting time and getting nowhere.
OP, if one person disagrees w/you, then it is just opinion. But when an entire slew of people kindly point out to you all that is wrong, it is time to pay attention.

indyblue
Aug. 6, 2011, 03:44 PM
"Here's what I think. This video was taken AFTER the original post in this thread and he's getting mean and angry hoping to display some magikal transformation (which of course his instruction can't produce). Sad."

I think this is on the money. And whoever that other woman is in the video who walks across the arena egging Buck on? She needs a lesson in lesson manners as well. I find myself still fuming hours after watching the video.

kinnip
Aug. 6, 2011, 03:56 PM
Everything that needs to be said has been said, but I want to reiterate: a good instructor, a quality instructor, will always encourage his/her students to ride with other trainers, and see what knowledge they can glean. Gloria, take some of that enviable energy of yours and just try a clinic, or a few lessons, with another trainer. Diversify your experiences, life's too short for one flavour.

alicen
Aug. 6, 2011, 04:04 PM
I don't understand the weighting of the outside hip. Can anyone explain?

Weighting the outside to encourage the horse to stay to the outside of a circle or turn rather than falling-in, but not weighting to the extent that you are chronically crooked in the saddle or sabotaging the effectiveness of the inside leg.

kinnip
Aug. 6, 2011, 04:20 PM
I've always heard "ride the outside of the horse". I think someone mentioned previously, it should be the thought of weighting the outside, not the actual weighting. This kind of nuance is why it's so super we have different instructors, with different ways of saying things. Some folks think weight on the outside hip and land in a perfect position, some folks list off. The best instructors I've had have been able to adapt their hyperbole to a rider's needs. :lol:

Fillabeana
Aug. 6, 2011, 04:21 PM
as to weighting outside hip: some horses collapse to the inside, if you can stay upright on the horse (which, in the collapsing-to-the-inside horse case, means weighting the outside hip, since your inside hip ends up sort of floating along in midair!) you can encourage the horse to bring its back up underneath you.
If you instead end up leaning to the outside, you'll just mess things up more.

nomeolvides
Aug. 6, 2011, 05:27 PM
Hey, at least the horse isn't BTV! ;)
Comment on the video:

Gloria's instincts are not hers, she has learned to be aware through my teaching her the extreme subtle aida. LOL. Charming.

Carol Ames
Aug. 6, 2011, 06:43 PM
I am not at all sure what to make of this video, since this thread appears under/ on the dressage forum, I am guessing this was to have been a dressage lesson/ clinic; it is true that I have no idea where/ how they appeared in an earlier video; but, do know that I see here nothing resembling dressage; unless, it is the sitting trot, talkitalk of use of the aids in turning;he trot would score as inadequate in classical dressage, not a 2 beat gait with diagonal pairs , moment of suspension; the horsedoes not appear able to balance well enough to allow the moment of suspension to occur;yes, the rider is still riding at an age when, I hope to be out of a wheelchair and enjoying her horse perhaps she learns enough in these sessions to fill her desire to learn dressage; show this to others who do ride in clinics and take lessons and you will hear opinions relative to what they are being/ have been taught. from certified;), well known;) riders and trainers.

AnotherRound
Aug. 6, 2011, 07:15 PM
Well that was fun.

Gloria, I hope after you have had some time with the present trainer, you begin to question the results. Even if you don't switch trainers, and if you stay with Mr. Buck, do some reading on classical french dressage; educate yourself about the horse's way of going from books and observe your horses' way of going with a critcal eye. Then observe your trainer's way of going with a critical eye.

It is often that the student surpasses the teacher. Learn what you can from him, but don't close yourself off to moving on and learning more for you and your horse.

Best of luck!!

kinnip
Aug. 6, 2011, 07:29 PM
nomeolvides, I thought that was pretty condescending, too.

Carol Ames
Aug. 6, 2011, 08:21 PM
I think you do amazingly well:yes:, considering the lack of help you are getting:mad:. from the instructor.

atr
Aug. 7, 2011, 12:28 AM
Gloria, I urge you to come down to Millbrook Farm and watch the Utah Dressage Society annual show this weekend (Fri/Sat). Whilst I'm not saying that everything you'll see will be a stellar example of training and riding, there will be some good stuff there and it'll give you a chance to see what else is going on in the State.

Carol Ames
Aug. 7, 2011, 08:22 PM
Do we have ANY idea what his background IS:confused:? I'll bet it was \NOT SRS:no:

The Parelli outake video made more logical sense. I'm still wondering who he learned from....? Anyone know?

carolprudm
Aug. 7, 2011, 08:31 PM
Do we have ANY idea what his background IS:confused:? I'll bet it was \NOT SRS:no:

I suspect he is self taught, perhaps from the internet

SillyHorse
Aug. 7, 2011, 08:33 PM
I suspect he is self taught, perhaps from the internet
Oh, snap! :lol:

AlterBy
Aug. 7, 2011, 08:36 PM
I suspect he is self taught, perhaps from the internet

That is not nice for the internet.

Carol Ames
Aug. 7, 2011, 08:42 PM
from her profile:still learning the fine art of classical dressage; :confused:; Gloria,there was NONE:eek: of it in these videos; you are being taken:mad:!

Carol Ames
Aug. 7, 2011, 08:46 PM
Bill Woods Clinic, October 7-9 at Ann Coester's barn. Please contact Ellen Walker at 435-462-3330.

Carol Ames
Aug. 7, 2011, 08:50 PM
This makes Rollkur appear benign, doesn't it?

TheHorseProblem
Aug. 7, 2011, 11:00 PM
I would appreciate if all of you would clarify the word "Credentials" used in reference to Mr. Buck. What "Credentials are you looking for? From the English classes I took, I learned that word "Credential" means "Letters of Introduction" and comes from the Medieval Latin "Credere" meaning "Believe". I

With Love, Kindness, Joy and Beauty,
Gloria J. Perry


Charlaton: a person falsely claiming a special knowledge or skill

Can be applied to many of you :D

They are both sitting there with a dictionary in hand? Hmmm...

Gloria, if you indeed wrote the OP, after watching the videos, I just want to suggest that you pitch the dressage idea and take up trail riding. Seriously. You still get to walk around on your horse, but there won't be anyone yelling at you, and the scenery is much nicer.

lawchick
Aug. 7, 2011, 11:18 PM
Gloria,

You are working hard and you are an inspiration. However, your instructor sucks. You have nothing to lose by either auditing some lessons or taking some lessons from a dressage instructor. I wish you could see how much you would gain by that.:sadsmile:

in_the_zone
Aug. 8, 2011, 07:30 AM
What a quack. Do not pay this abusive, down-talking, jerk another penny to teach you this bastardized, backwards version of what he interprets dressage to be. Why does the French school attract the crazies (and strange over the top facial hair and ponytails)?

What was that you said? Stop, stop. Stand there, take deep breaths and remember how to ride. How dare you antagonize and treat this good-humored lady like this. Who do you think you are?