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LucianCephus
Mar. 1, 2004, 09:40 AM
Check out the USEF suspension lists...still
more names have been added. Unreal.

LucianCephus
Mar. 1, 2004, 09:40 AM
Check out the USEF suspension lists...still
more names have been added. Unreal.

J. Turner
Mar. 1, 2004, 10:02 AM
DESLAURIERS, MARIO
HAMPTON, NH 03/01/04 - 05/31/04

GLEFKE, LARRY
KESWICK, VA 03/01/04 - 07/31/04

Those were the ones I recognized, although there's a huge contingent from Texas. I haven't heard of them ... a few from Flower Mound.

Anyone want to call to find out what their suspensions were for so we have accurate information?

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lms
Mar. 1, 2004, 10:07 AM
Jeff Ayers has a new one from 3/1/04 to 8/31/04

"Some people need to buy the winners, others make them."

Scarlet 1
Mar. 1, 2004, 10:59 AM
I posted this on another thread on suspensions, it does include Mario's suspension, but not Larry Glefke's suspension. This was from USEF magazine.

Jeff Ayers, this time for 007 (in January it was for Social Secretary) fluphenazine. $6,000 and six months.

Laura Belmer of KY Showing Vanna, Fluphenazine and Ketoprofen, four months $3,000.

Belynda Bond of TX Showing Chilly, Reserpine, four months $4,000.

John Bragg of CA Showing Atlantis and Say the Word, Fluphenazine, six months $6,000.

Matthew Burke of TX Showing Sazza, Ace, two months $3,000.

Robert Cheska of WI for at least six years before he can reapply. Infraction was for orginal insurance fraud/horse killings and then showing up at a horse show.

Dan Cohn of CA Showing Grandiamo, Fluphenazine, five months $5,000.

Mario Deslauries of NH Showing Big Sur, Fluphenazine, three months $5,000.

John Gardner of GA abusing Slap Shot, horse abuse, one month $1,000.

Darcy Gordon of FL Showing Rosie O'Brien, Reserpine, four months $4,000.

Jayme Jamieson of NM, unsportsmanlike behavior, $200.

Jennifer Ledoux-Zendzian of CT, filing a false affidavit and unsportsmanlike behavior, six months and $2,000.

Sandra Lobel of NJ, showing Camden, Fluphenazine, four months and $5,000.

Alexandra Madigan of CA, behavior, two months and $2,000.

Eileen Maher of MS, behavior, one month and $1,000

Bruce Ekstron and Charles McCallister big issue over registering Saddlebred mares and Morgan mares. 20 years and $10,000 for Eckston and three years and $2,500 for McCallister. After suspensions they can reapply for membership, not guaranteed.

Mike McCormick and Tracy Fenney of Tx, showing Naboo, Grace, Laccord and Odette, Reserpine, Ten months and $9,000 for McCormick, $6,000 and six months for Fenney.

Rich Melville of UT for excessive beating of an Arab, "at least eleven, large, swollen, and hot whip marks on the right hip" and excessive sweating. Two months and $2,500. Kathryn Kizer, Owner got one month and $1,000.

Marty Morani of MD, showed Babarock, Fluphenazine, four months and $4,000.

Timothy Phelan of NY excessive whip use on HF Arielee, $2,000 and one month.

Zuze Rodrigues of OH, Addicted to Fame, Tied stallions testicles together with a leather strap, three months and $2,500.

Buddy Roulston and Carolyn Crawford Mikulec of TX, showing F.F. Mexacali, Fluphenazine, five months and $5,000 for Roulston and $250 for Mikulec.

Cam Smith of Canada, showing LuLu, Fluphenazine, four months and $4,000.

Melinda Sorenson of VA, showing MSM Mason Dixon Classic, bute, two months and $100.

B.J. Stiskin of NJ, showing Braveheart, Ace, two months and $2,000.

Barbie Ulbrich of NJ, showing Godsend, Ace, two months and $2,000.

Freddie Vasquez of IL, was suspended and trained in some way at a horse show, one year and then can reapply.

Nancy Verge of CO, showing Financial Power, excessively yanking on the reins and spurred and kicked her horse, two months and $750.

Diane Yeager of CA, showing Solitaire, Fluphenazine and Reserpine, six months and $6,000.

Cody Williams of FL, showing Money, acted as trainer at a horse show when he was not a member did not pay a non member fee and then excessively whipped the horse Money and poled a horse in the schooling ring. Three months and $5,000.

wishful thinking
Mar. 1, 2004, 11:13 AM
Wow, I haven't seen a list that actually lists the alleged infractions. I wonder what "unsportsman-like" behavior entails. Wonder what Sandra Lobel was charged with.

Janet
Mar. 1, 2004, 11:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wishful thinking:
Wonder what Sandra Lobel was charged with.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It says right there:<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Sandra Lobel of NJ, showing Camden, Fluphenazine, four months and $5,000. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Testing positive for Fluphenazine.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

elizabeth
Mar. 1, 2004, 11:27 AM
I have tried so hard to stay silent on this issue, but no more. Here's my opinion:

If you, as a professional, need to whip your horse or drug him in order to ride him, MAYBE YOU SUCK and should take up another sport.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming. . . .

mizzwade
Mar. 1, 2004, 11:35 AM
Here's a link that explains more about this antipsychotic drug:
http://www.mentalhealth.com/drug/p30-m03.html

mizzwade

On Second Thought
Mar. 1, 2004, 11:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by elizabeth:
I have tried so hard to stay silent on this issue, but no more. Here's my opinion:

If you, as a professional, need to whip your horse or drug him in order to ride him, MAYBE YOU SUCK and should take up another sport.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming. . . .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Elizabeth, that was the funniest thing I've read on one of these suspension threads. Kudos.

and I agree http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

--The difference between genius and stupidity is; genius has its limits.

hifi
Mar. 1, 2004, 11:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by elizabeth:
I have tried so hard to stay silent on this issue, but no more. Here's my opinion:

If you, as a professional, need to whip your horse or drug him in order to ride him, _MAYBE YOU SUCK_ and should take up another sport.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming. . . .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
DITTO....I am wondering if they are looking harder now...I have enver seen so many people popped for drugs, what do you guys think?

Poindexter, may he rest in peace.
Bobbie please rest in peace.
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elizabeth
Mar. 1, 2004, 11:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by On Second Thought:
Elizabeth, that was the funniest thing I've read on one of these suspension threads. Kudos.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif Darn skippy.

monstrpony
Mar. 1, 2004, 11:50 AM
Is there anyone left out there showing any more??

___________
He's not really a pony, and I'm really not "pony aged" either.

nelson
Mar. 1, 2004, 11:58 AM
Does anyone find it odd that the COTH has not reported at all (at least not that I have seen) on all of these recent suspensions? Doesn't this seem like news that should warrant an article or an editorial or something? Just wondering what you all think.

Scarlet 1
Mar. 1, 2004, 12:11 PM
By the way, the ones I listed were summarized from the Februrary edition of the USEF magazine. There were a bunch listed in January edition which I did not detail in the above list, such as Don Stewart and Todd Minikus. Additionally, there seem to be a number of suspensions that have been added to web site which have not yet made the magazine. This group in aggregate to be much larger than the last Reserpine mass susspensions in the 80's.

Coreene
Mar. 1, 2004, 12:42 PM
Elizabeth, I am so glad I did not pee in my pants when I read your comment! You GO girl!

MistyBlue
Mar. 1, 2004, 12:46 PM
Wow, maybe I will start showing again this year...after all, the rings and maybe even the schooling rings won't be crowded, right? Plus, better chance for higher ribbons even on my drug-free horse. If there's only a few people, I could pin by default, LOL! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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Flash44
Mar. 1, 2004, 12:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by monstrpony:
Is there anyone left out there showing any more??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just us nerds.

Meredith
Mar. 1, 2004, 12:49 PM
Can someone explain to me why the suspensions for horse abuse carry such a small fine when compared to fines of those using/showing under illegal drugs?

futurewin
Mar. 1, 2004, 12:50 PM
Unbelievable, when will people realize that drugs don't make the horse? I would say Elizabeth you summed it up very well. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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Nikki^
Mar. 1, 2004, 12:58 PM
Excuse me but why would you Tie a stallion's testicles together with a leather strap? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

And 20 years for Bruce Ekstron? WOW! That is a long time. I see those fines are really high on some of the people.

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DMK
Mar. 1, 2004, 01:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hifi:
I am wondering if they are looking harder now...I have enver seen so many people popped for drugs, what do you guys think?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm thinking maybe nobody tested for prolixin (fluphen) until last year... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I'm totally confused on the leather strap thing. It was at an arab show, so maybe there is some halter benefit or high stepping effect? Or maybe we are just talking a whacked out trainer.

"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony." - Monty Python

Anne
Mar. 1, 2004, 02:11 PM
Is Kelley Farmer still riding for Larry Glefke, and if so, why isn't she suspended also?

Hasty
Mar. 1, 2004, 02:29 PM
Kelley Farmer is married to Larry Glefke

Merry
Mar. 1, 2004, 02:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by elizabeth:
If you, as a professional, need to whip your horse or drug him in order to ride him, MAYBE YOU SUCK and should take up another sport.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Can't be much plainer than that!

I'm so glad to see that Diane Yeager and John Bragg have done their part. I was afraid we west coasters were, once again, so behind the horse show trends. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Cassiopeia
Mar. 1, 2004, 04:02 PM
Wow, it's just so hard to get good help today. Look how many people had their barn workers mix up feed buckets and got bad advice from their vets. I'm sure the abuse cases were just mistakes as well - those trainers probably had their grooms hand them the wrong horse and really meant to be abusing some other horse that wasn't showing. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

"Years ago, my mother used to say to me, 'In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant.' Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant." -- Elwood P. Dowd

Medievalist
Mar. 1, 2004, 04:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nikkibaby27:
And 20 years for Bruce Ekstron? WOW! That is a long time. I see those fines are really high on some of the people.

http://www.geocities.com/area51/crater/5267/HeartofGold.html

http://www.dmtc.com/dmtc98/Pedigree/

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Serves him right. I know the people that (unwittingly) sold him the saddlebred mare in question who *magically* became a morgan, and Charlie McAllister is from my town. Finally some of the morgan people are getting in trouble for ruining the breed. They showed and won with that mare for 9 years! Think of all the real morgans that got shafted! Now they just need to catch the rest of them....

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Drakaina16
Mar. 1, 2004, 05:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Serves him right. I know the people that (unwittingly) sold him the saddlebred mare in question who *magically* became a morgan, and Charlie McAllister is from my town. Finally some of the morgan people are getting in trouble for ruining the breed. They showed and won with that mare for 9 years! Think of all the real morgans that got shafted! Now they just need to catch the rest of them....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was actually going to ask about this. So these people were registering Saddlebreds as Morgans?

Danya

WWCountry
Mar. 1, 2004, 05:59 PM
Larry and Kelly are married? Where have I been?
I think Kelly is showing horses in Wellington, but Larry's not with her. Now I know why.

stop4
Mar. 1, 2004, 06:26 PM
what was the advantage of using a saddle bred in the morgan classes?

C*A*T*H*E*R*I*N*E
Mar. 1, 2004, 06:35 PM
OKAY-- Not enough sharps boxes?! Yu've got to be kidding me.. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

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Hasty
Mar. 1, 2004, 06:38 PM
I am pretty larry and kelley are married...at least they were married....anyone else have a clue?

Anne
Mar. 1, 2004, 06:48 PM
Considering that Kelley rode with Larry and Trudy (while they were married) when she was still on ponies, that's kind of an interesting twist of fate.

Party Rose
Mar. 1, 2004, 08:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Nikkibaby27
Advanced

posted Mar. 01, 2004 03:58 PM
Excuse me but why would you Tie a stallion's testicles together with a leather strap?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cowboys use to use rubberbands to castrate their stallions. Could it be along the same line, perhaps?

Beezer
Mar. 1, 2004, 08:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sandstone:
what was the advantage of using a saddle bred in the morgan classes?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sure others more in the know can (and should http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC, it was to "juice up" the action of the Morgan -- i.e. use the higher-stepping/bigger moving Saddlebred to defeat the more traditional-moving Morgans. The Saddlebred's more extravagant action would -- in theory and, unfortunately, in practice -- eclipse that of the Morgan.

As far as the whole strap around the testicles ... can we just say YEEEEOUCH!! (And, heck, I'm a girl. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif ) My **guess** would be that it would cause a stallion to move in a "fancier" manner -- the only other idea I can wrap my mind around is that perhaps it makes them swell temporarily?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Dearest Elizabeth, I say we just your slogan as the new bumper sticker for us "nerds," as Flash calls us. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

***** Currently assigned to the mouth-gaping, lip-flapping, head-twisting, wood-chewing, boot-shredding phase of baby greenie ownership! *****

Party Rose
Mar. 1, 2004, 08:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Alexandra Madigan of CA, behavior, two months and $2,000. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's about time someone put her in her place. She has been out-of-control for years. Nothing else needs to be said.

Beezer
Mar. 1, 2004, 08:24 PM
Indeed, Party Rose. Indeed.

***** Currently assigned to the mouth-gaping, lip-flapping, head-twisting, wood-chewing, boot-shredding phase of baby greenie ownership! *****

[This message was edited by Beezer on Mar. 01, 2004 at 11:38 PM.]

Risey27
Mar. 1, 2004, 08:26 PM
Merry please check your private topics or whatever...I dont know if I did it right but u didn't have an email thanks

TKR
Mar. 1, 2004, 09:03 PM
I think these fines, suspensions, public listings, etc. are a huge step in the right direction. It shows that the organizations are listening to their general membership and that we won't tolerate abuses from anyone to any degree. These "professionals" and "trainers" are being put on notice as well as the other negatives, that this will stop or severe penalties will be invoked. It is certainly time for the primary equine magazines to do some articles about the abuses, suspensions and the way most people feel about it and how strongly we want the rules enforced.
PSG

arnika
Mar. 1, 2004, 09:09 PM
TKR, very well said.

If COTH, Practical Horseman, et al, want to be considered evenly balanced they will make the effort to inform their readers about this wave of suspensions and continue the debate about the causes and the solutions.

stopher
Mar. 1, 2004, 09:24 PM
Hmm... say a name from around here that I wouldn't have expected to see.

Stopher

eqnjumperrider
Mar. 2, 2004, 12:03 AM
Beazer and Party Rose, I COMPLETELY AGREE on the Alexandra Madigan issue, she is completely out of control.

dressager
Mar. 2, 2004, 12:51 AM
While I don't agree with drug use at all, I can help but wondering why someone who ABUSED a horse so horribly got only a 2,500$ and TWO MONTHS suspension?!?! Shouldn't we be hitting them where it hurts?

What is unsportsmanlike behavior? Behavior? (I know what both are, but what do you have to do to get a fine and a month long suspension?)

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lms
Mar. 2, 2004, 05:40 AM
I am willing to bet the farm (no pun intended) that Kelly and Larry are *NOT* married.

"Some people need to buy the winners, others make them."

Medievalist
Mar. 2, 2004, 06:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beezer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sandstone:
what was the advantage of using a saddle bred in the morgan classes?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sure others more in the know can (and should http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC, it was to "juice up" the action of the Morgan -- i.e. use the higher-stepping/bigger moving Saddlebred to defeat the more traditional-moving Morgans. The Saddlebred's more extravagant action would -- in theory and, unfortunately, in practice -- eclipse that of the Morgan.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well it's the same thing that happens in all the saddleseat classes...morgan, arab, etc. The morgan people are known for it though - it's what wins in the morgan ring...something that looks and moves like a saddlebred. It defeats the point of having a morgan if the horse is supposed to move and look like a saddlebred. The morgan ring has been a travesty for years. Just check out any of the big time morgan barns online. They won't look like morgans, because in all liklihood, they aren't.

Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/club/houssaye)

Janet
Mar. 2, 2004, 07:03 AM
Tying testicles-
FWIW, it was an Arabian show, and one of the rules cited was for "Western", so I guess the horse was showing in the Western division at an Arabian show- but I still don't understand what the motivation was.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

MareOne
Mar. 2, 2004, 07:33 AM
Another in agreement on Alex Madigan. I cringe when I hear her yelling at her students at shows, not to mention her poor son. Anyone know the details?

Bumpkin
Mar. 2, 2004, 07:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MareOne:
Another in agreement on Alex Madigan. I cringe when I hear her yelling at her students at shows, not to mention her poor son. Anyone know the details?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Remember: You're A Customer In A Service Industry."
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Kinsella
Mar. 2, 2004, 08:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>John Gardner of GA abusing Slap Shot, horse abuse, one month $1,000.

Rich Melville of UT for excessive beating of an Arab, "at least eleven, large, swollen, and hot whip marks on the right hip" and excessive sweating. Two months and $2,500. Kathryn Kizer, Owner got one month and $1,000.

Timothy Phelan of NY excessive whip use on HF Arielee, $2,000 and one month.

Nancy Verge of CO, showing Financial Power, excessively yanking on the reins and spurred and kicked her horse, two months and $750.

Cody Williams of FL, showing Money, acted as trainer at a horse show when he was not a member did not pay a non member fee and then excessively whipped the horse Money and poled a horse in the schooling ring. Three months and $5,000.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
OK, I would rather have a trainer drug a horse than have any one of the above people anywhere near my barn. And I am saddened to see that abuse is a lesser crime when the supposed credo of our NGB is that the horses come first and they will not tolerate abuse. Apparently they will... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

******************************
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playing cards
Mar. 2, 2004, 08:31 AM
True true the fines and suspensions are not much for the people suspended for abuse, but OMG the stigma that must attach to having one's name published in the national trade magazine and on these boards to me would be SO embarrasing -- I think I would die of shame. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif It would be one thing to have a few people see what they are not supposed to see in the morning before the show or off show grounds in your private ring, those sightings just lead to rumors that you are a horse abuser. Here, one's name has been published and it is a fact that these people abused at least one horse. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Not that the penalties shouldn't be more, but I do think the embarrassment of it all hopefully might deter...

JulieMontgomery
Mar. 2, 2004, 09:12 AM
Unfortunately, many of these people are simply NOT embarassed........ it's just taken with a grain of salt, and the folks who patronize them think nothing of it. Not only are they not embarrassed, they aren't sorry - they're only sorry they got caught.

I think you will find this behavior more and more as time goes on, for the very fact that there seems to be no lasting stigma attached.

"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of his devotion."
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Medievalist
Mar. 2, 2004, 09:35 AM
Anyone who wants to have some fun, google "morgan show horses" and check out the sale pages for some of the farms. If those are morgans, then my horse is a fjord.

Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/club/houssaye)

Flash44
Mar. 2, 2004, 10:10 AM
Pretty soon, there will be no difference between the Shetland Ponies, Morgans, SAddlebreds etc except maybe size. I actually had a professional Shetland handler tell me, The crazier they are, the better they show.

Pocket Pony
Mar. 2, 2004, 11:15 AM
I know a couple of people who ride with one of the suspended NorCal trainers. Doesn't faze them a bit. I wish there were more of a stigma associated with being on "the list", but I think everyone else is just happy they didn't get caught...yet.

I think that the horses that received the drugs are not actually with the trainers anymore...I wonder how the new owners feel about having their horse's name in the magazine?

These trainers just happened to get caught. It wasn't the first time they did it, and I'm sure it won't be the last, either. I wonder how their show prep plan changes now?

And yes, who is Alex Madigan? PT me if you don't want to tell the story...

"Both rider and horse must enjoy the work. This is the essence of success" - Reiner Klimke

MareOne
Mar. 2, 2004, 11:29 AM
Let's just say Ms. Madigan is a very loud, abrasive person out here on the west coast. I would classify her as more of a local type trainer, though she does frequent some of the A shows at Showpark and the Oaks. She's the one with the gravelly NY accent yelling at all her students.

Coreene
Mar. 2, 2004, 12:47 PM
A great salesperson for earplugs.

ccoronios
Mar. 2, 2004, 01:57 PM
Hear, hear, Elizabeth ("maybe you suck and should find another job")!!!
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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Pet Psychic
Mar. 2, 2004, 02:52 PM
I always enjoy hearing the excuses behind the suspensions.

Maybe the Fed's magazine could start running a companion article each issue. The suspension list could be followed by a column called "Now Here's My Side of the Story." http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Flash44
Mar. 2, 2004, 03:00 PM
Why don't they all just go on Larry King Live.

stillwaiting
Mar. 2, 2004, 03:18 PM
Can only speak for one name on the list- Belynda Bond. I don't know why drugs were being used, but this person DOES know how to ride without them. Several years ago, she fixed my baby green stopper when everyone else in Memphis was afraid to get on him (including his own mommy http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif on his worst days) I know for a fact that there were no drugs involved, because she only met us at the ring to school and go in for his classes. She demonstrated great patience and class in working with an animal who was nearly ruined by a green horse/green rider (me http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif) combination. Through her skill and influence alone, he learned to relax and go forward, finally deciding that he wanted to be a hunter after all... and I was eventually able to show him in the adults myself. And we lived happily ever after until I went back to school and sold him as a children's hunter. I don't know the circumstances of the current situation, but the Belynda Bond that I knew absolutely rocks!

LE
Mar. 2, 2004, 03:23 PM
I am shocked that some people would stay with an abusive coach.
I also feel that it's a shame that people feel they can behave this way...it just wrecks it for you all who are honest, as you have to pay more drug fees and all that to police these people...and do they really learn???

It's also very sad to see that abuse goes peanalized with a seeming slap on the wrist..but, it's a start and I commend the USET for their efforts and good work. Now, if we can just make sure they don't/aren't able to show ANYWHERE, maybe THEN they'll learn.

ps--testicle tying should be applied to those who feel the need to break the rules, but sadly, they don't have any balls to do stuff like that!

Believe in yourself, and dare to dream....

scrubs
Mar. 2, 2004, 03:46 PM
Batgirl - That is why the NGB needs to start suspending the horses who were part of the infraction - regardless of ownership - and slap on a few more months. THEN lets see an owner keep his/her horse in full training & board with that trainer that just lost the horse its chance for a year end award or qualifying for finals. There would then be a direct link between what trainers did with a horse and how much $ the horse will bring in regardless of the trainers suspension.

eqnjumperrider
Mar. 2, 2004, 05:59 PM
medievalist please check your pt's

Katie_Rosenzweig
Mar. 2, 2004, 06:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by stillwaiting:
Can only speak for one name on the list- Belynda Bond. I don't know why drugs were being used, but this person DOES know how to ride without them. Several years ago, she fixed my baby green stopper when everyone else in Memphis was afraid to get on him (including his own mommy http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif on his worst days) I know for a fact that there were no drugs involved, because she only met us at the ring to school and go in for his classes. She demonstrated great patience and class in working with an animal who was nearly ruined by a green horse/green rider (me http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif) combination. Through her skill and influence alone, he learned to relax and go forward, finally deciding that he wanted to be a hunter after all... and I was eventually able to show him in the adults myself. And we lived happily ever after until I went back to school and sold him as a children's hunter. I don't know the circumstances of the current situation, but the Belynda Bond that I knew absolutely rocks!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i heard from my trainer that heard from Belynda herself that it was a mistake. the horse was tested by urine and blood, one was positive and one was negative. so they tested him again the next day and both were negative. and supposidly it would have taken 72 hrs for the drug to clear out of the horses system. but...because of the one positive out of 4, she was still set down. she said it was a drug that she had never even heard of. very unfortunate, i like her very much and she does ride well. And...Chilly showed at Indio, his name is in the results for the jr hunters. so, thats just the story that i heard

~*~Rosey~*~
Who's That
Picasso
Mikhail

"It doesn't mean being noticed, it means being remembered." ~ Giorgio Armani

dab
Mar. 2, 2004, 08:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Katie_Rosenzweig:

i heard from my trainer that heard from Belynda herself that it was a mistake. the horse was tested by urine and blood, one was positive and one was negative. so they tested him again the next day and both were negative. and supposidly it would have taken 72 hrs for the drug to clear out of the horses system. but...because of the one positive out of 4, she was still set down. she said it was a drug that she had never even heard of. very unfortunate, i like her very much and she does ride well. And...Chilly showed at Indio, his name is in the results for the jr hunters. so, thats just the story that i heard

~*~Rosey~*~
Who's That
Picasso
Mikhail

"It doesn't mean being noticed, it means being remembered." ~ Giorgio Armani
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>USEF recommends that reserpine not be given for 45 days prior to a show -- I don't know the particulars of this case, but the '72 hours' part of the explanation you heard doesn't add up --
I'm wondering who tested the horse the next day -- I wasn't aware that USEF turned drug test results around so fast (I do think they keep second samples to check if the first samples comes up positive for forbidden substances) -- Any chance the trainer had an independent test done the following day? -- I would think that USEF would be openning themselves up for a lawsuit if they suspended someone based on inconclusive test results --

Lord Helpus
Mar. 3, 2004, 05:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dab:
I don't know the particulars of this case, but the '72 hours' part of the explanation you heard doesn't add up --
I'm wondering who tested the horse the next day -- I wasn't aware that USEF turned drug test results around so fast ... Any chance the trainer had an independent test done the following day? -- I would think that USEF would be openning themselves up for a lawsuit if they suspended someone based on inconclusive test results --<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are right -- No USEF tests (taken in the normal course of testing) could possibly have results the next day. They have to be sent to the USEF's testing lab, and then the samples wait their turn for testing.

And, one might ask, why would Ms. Bond run her own tests the next day if she was completely unaware of the drug in the horse's system? And where would she get it tested within 24 hours? Most labs are not set up to run the same drug panel that the USEF runs, which is why the USEF set up its own drug lab.

Her story just does not make sense. Perhaps something has gotten lost in translation?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Do you know why they call it "PMS"? Because "Mad Cow Disease" was taken

Jake's Dad
Mar. 3, 2004, 05:55 AM
To All:
A trainer signs a paper but there is no proof
that the trainer administered the drug. Would
this stand up in a regular court? I would be very careful making these accusations.

Giddy-up
Mar. 3, 2004, 06:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jake's Dad:
To All:
A trainer signs a paper but there is no proof
that the trainer administered the drug. Would
this stand up in a regular court? I would be very careful making these accusations.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The trainer is accepting responsiblity for said animal by agreeing to sign the paper (I assume you mean the entries at the show). I know trainers who have people haul in & meet with them at shows & those trainers refuse to sign the entry blanks because the horse is NOT in their care & therefore the trainer has no clue what this horse has been given. I am one of those riders. I meet my trainer at the shows & therefore I can understand why she wouldn't want to sign my entry blank. She would have no idea if I gave my horse something at home & then brought it to the show (not that I do, just stating an example) where she would be accepting responsibilty for the horse. And look what happens when a horse is caught--you don't see the owners getting in as much trouble as the trainers. The owner could just take the horse to another trainer to show with when the trainer he/she was with gets set down.

"...but now the gloves are coming off and it's going to get ghetto." Robby Johnson

Flash44
Mar. 3, 2004, 06:43 AM
The trainer accepts responsibility for the condition of the horse when the trainer signs the entry blank. It's up to the trainer to prevent "accidental contamination" if the trainer is, indeed, innocent of administering the positive substance. A big part of being a professional trainer is making sure the horses are being cared for properly and the barn is well run. Chaos in the barn will eventually catch up somehow.

subk
Mar. 3, 2004, 07:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kinsella:
OK, I would rather have a trainer drug a horse than have any one of the above people anywhere near my barn. And I am saddened to see that abuse is a lesser crime when the supposed credo of our NGB is that the horses come first and they will not tolerate abuse. Apparently they will... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In my book giving a horse drugs for reasons other than medical therapy IS abuse.

Portia
Mar. 3, 2004, 08:38 AM
The "meeting at shows" issue is why there is now a place for the "coach" to sign on the entry form. USEF and show management need to have anyone who coaches sign the entry form for insurance and liability waiver purposes, but signing as coach only rather than as trainer means you are stating you did not have control over the care and custody of the horse, and so the trainer's responsibilty presumption does not apply.

Of course, the presumptions that attach to the trainer and coach designations are just that -- presumptions which are rebuttable by the evidence.

Any member who is actual responsible can be held liable regardless of whether that person ever comes near an entry form. If the evidence shows the trainer did not give the drug, say for example, the owner admits to doing it without the trainer's knowledge and other evidence backs that up, then the trainer may not be held responsible and the owner will be. If the evidence shows the person who signed as coach met the horse at the show but then took the horse back behind the barn for a quick medicinal tune up, then the "coach" will be held responsible. And, if only the owner signs the entry form but the evidence shows there really is a trainer handling the horse, then that person can be held liable too.

Janet
Mar. 3, 2004, 09:32 AM
Portia,

I signed as my own trainer on my HITS entry (since Belle lives at home). At the show, I asked my instructor to go to the office to sign as "coach". When she got there, the officd said "you can sign if you want to, but you don't need to, since we already have a trainer signatire".

So it seems that the show office doesn't understand how "coach" is supposed to work either.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

SueL
Mar. 3, 2004, 09:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jake's Dad:
To All:
A trainer signs a paper but there is no proof
that the trainer administered the drug. Would
this stand up in a regular court? I would be very careful making these accusations.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, Jake's Dad, the process is most certainly nnot infalliable. The trainer only signs taking responsiblity in the eyes of the USEF. Until when/if USEF ever makes the testimony as well as the findings of the Hearing Committee a matter of public record much of what we see on this board is pure speculation.

FWIW - I do not "drug" horses to affect performance. Never have, never will. In addition, I showed for many years with a person currently on the suspended list - S/he never, ever suggested I use anything prohibited even on my hot, spooky Anglo-Trak mare. My gawd/ s/he never even said "what about regu-mate?" I was just told "Work harder, work harder; get your
horse broke." I also did an ungodly amount of work w/o stirrups. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Now, I will say, there are uses for those meds like reserpine and prolixin by and on the order of a veterinarian. I also happen to believe that the rules, as currently written, are not perfect; that they can and do pick up matabolites from meds administered long before they ceased to have any pharmacological effect and that vets are currently hamstrung when it comes to dispensing such meds as legit. IOW, I should be able to, if my vet advises it, administer a med to a laid-up horse and return it to showing after a certain length of time as long as I fill out a D&M form. Just an example.

Right now, the USEF gets to decide what a legit use of a med is that I can fill out a D&M form for is - not my vet. I am not sure that is right - I think that should be between my vet and me. It is possible to establish levels where there is no pharmacological effect - the USEF should concern itself with that IMO. USEF is responsible for the actions of its members on the field of competition - the care and custody of my horse is MY responsibility. I take that very seriously and my relationship with my vet is a big part of that.

Just my two, uh, five, cents http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Sue and Tommy, who likes an occasional slice of pizza (is that an okay nutraceutical http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

Portia
Mar. 3, 2004, 09:58 AM
Yeah Janet, I can see that happening. It's an educational process. People who attend the show secretaries seminars should know the reasons why the signature is required, but a lot of them don't go to the seminars. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Discussing concepts like fair play and decorum with certain marketing people is like discussing salad with your cat." Bruce Davis, Executive Director, Acadamy of Motion Picture Arts & Sciences (Feb. 26, 2004)

Weebonilass
Mar. 3, 2004, 10:12 AM
SueL,

That leaves USEF assuming that your vet can be trusted, which is unfortunately not something that you can do. There are a lot of vets who will give a horse whatever the trainer wants as long as their bill is paid.

There was an Arab case where the vet actually inserted black dye in a horse's eyes because "human eyes" are not allowed in the halter division. Comestic alternations have never been allowed in the Arabian breed and yet that vet performed several surgeries that were cosmetic and tried to pass it off as medically necessary. The trainer is currently serving a 5 yr suspension in the states, but doing just fine for himself down in South America where they don't recognize the suspension.

NinaL aka Chrissy
Mar. 3, 2004, 11:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weebonilass:

That leaves USEF assuming that your vet can be trusted, which is unfortunately not something that you can do. There are a lot of vets who will give a horse whatever the trainer wants as long as their bill is paid.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I were a vet (and, FWIW, I worked with vets for many years) I would be offended at the blanket statement that there "are a lot of vets" who only care if the bill is paid.

We took a lot of abuse from people who wanted us to dispense the medicine du jour that was recommended by the breeder, the groomer, the handler, etc. Actually, just the statement "the breeder says" was enough to send everyone screaming from the room.

Most of the vets I know give a rodent's patootie about what the owners want - their interest lies in what is best for the animal.

If you have run into many of the other types - well, maybe you need to broaden your circle of acquaintences.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>There was an Arab case where the vet actually inserted black dye in a horse's eyes because "human eyes" are not allowed in the halter division. Comestic alternations have never been allowed in the Arabian breed and yet that vet performed several surgeries that were cosmetic and tried to pass it off as medically necessary. The trainer is currently serving a 5 yr suspension in the states, but doing just fine for himself down in South America where they don't recognize the suspension.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This has little to do with what constitutes a therapeutic pharmaceutical.

The point is that the current D&M rule groups Reserpine and Prolixin, which are often prescribed by vets for legitimate reasons, with a substance like cocaine, which, the last time I checked, had no therapeutic purpose. It is possible to have a trace level of a metabolite detected long after the medication has ceased having any sort of effect.

Now, I am fairly certain that the majority of the positives picked up in the last go around were not due to the medication being administered for a valid reason (dobbin goes slow is not a valid reason). But that does not mean that there are not valid reasons.

If I had a horse on layup and my vet wanted me to give said horse Reserpine to prevent further injury I would be very nervous about returning the horse to competition even after the 45 days recommended period.

I think that the time has come for the USEF to recognize that there are legitimate reasons for a vet to administer a substance like Reserpine and that it may be prudent to establish an acceptable trace level (the point at which the medication no longer has a physiological effect).

Nina

DMK
Mar. 3, 2004, 11:14 AM
weebonilass, the beauty of SueL's suggestion is that it also sets a "trace amounts" threshold. It may not guarantee the ethical behavior (or competency) of your vet, but it said you are only off the hook if a) you filed a D&M report and b) the trace metabolites are so low they didn't affect performance.

So far I have never heard a reasonable explanation for why this isn't a win-win for everyone. It sure would put the "the vet gave my horse reserpine 60 days ago, it should have been out of the system, I'm not to blame!" argument to rest. Either the horse had trace amounts, it didn't affect his performanceand you were up front about when it had been administered or b) there was a lot more than that in his system, and it really doesn't matter WHEN he got the drug. It still existed in levels high enough to affect performance. Go to jail. Do not collect $200. End of story.

Nina - great minds think alike!

"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony." - Monty Python

Hopeful Hunter
Mar. 3, 2004, 11:20 AM
As someone who is struggling hard to understand how/when/why D&M forms are to be filled out; what the various signature titles mean to suspensions and such; and why the USEF publishes clearing times for drugs - implying to my little brain that they DO see the drug as being of legit value for use, 'cause if it was just BAD like cocaine or something they wouldn't PUBLISH a clearing time, right? - but won't allow D&M reports to be filed if they've been used outside of very limited circumstances....

I have to say I think the current drug rules are Byzantine, trappy and almost impossible for otherwise intelligent professional people to decipher safely.

I don't understand why drugs are allowed for A or B, but not for C. If the drug is feared to alter performance, or if it's feared it can be used for that, why not just outlaw its use in show animals? Surely there are other options for that therapeutic use? And if a "new" drug has a therapeutic use, and the USEF says "ok, but not if it's used within 45 days" shouldn't a D&M report be allowed to be filed ANY time that drug is used? My head is just SPINNING at trying to understand this...

As to most vets being "bad apples" I have to disagree and just hope I'm wrong. I don't think most vets are, just as I don't believe most doctors happily overprescribe Oxycontin or anything like that.

BUT...I think everyone is confused at the rules. If the USEF is really a 501(c)3 would one grand way to use that status be to actually EDUCATE people on the drug issue? Offer seminars for everyone, heck even publish a booklet in lay language -- but do SOMETHING to help us to understand.

If these suspensions are being caused by trainers using prolixin or reserpine for a layup 90 days prior to showing or something like that, then that's just a shame. I'm sure that's only a few, but for those it's just sad that lack of understanding forces many of us to put them in the same box with the real cheats and abusers. I'd hope USEF might see the confusion and furor this is causing and do something constructive to address the issue -- from stiffer fines for owners and the horses tested to actual education and maybe reevaluation of some rules.

War Admiral
Mar. 3, 2004, 11:33 AM
Hopeful, if you haven't seen this page already, click here (http://www.usef.org/content/drugsMeds/) to go to USEF's D&M page. It contains PDF files you can download, as well as an e-mail address and phone number you can call for clarification of your questions.

______________

"Those who use horses just for the business are crass, classless horsemen."
--George Morris

DMK
Mar. 3, 2004, 11:47 AM
HH - a published "clearing time" would be most counterintuitive for any drug that has NO therapeutic value (i.e., cocaine), but may serve a purpose for therapeutic drugs.

But that is a different issue from establishing trace levels. Trace levels are such low levels as would not affect performance of the animal if found. For instance, 7 racing jurisdictions allow trace levels of clenbuterol (drug de jour in racing) in the system. The theory is that clenbuteral in amounts ranging from .05 to 10 ng/ml (depending on the jurisdicition) don't affect the outcome of a race. Any more found in the blood, and you are SOL. Theoretically this would reduce the number of suspensions by people honestly following the rules.

Like most people I don't think there are any innocents in this current round, but if someone out there that truly did have trace levels found, I feel for them, because they will forever be tarred with the rest of this group.

And when it comes to filing a D&M report, there isn't a ton of guidance in the USEF stuff other than to say don't bother asking about a D&M if the tranq was for clipping your horse (the answer is NO, that isn't an acceptable excuse). http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif But I have always rec'd a prompt, courteous response whenever I have called with a question about if I should file one for X drug.

"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony." - Monty Python

Ash
Mar. 3, 2004, 11:56 AM
And yet another twist.....I have just learned that a trainer who is currently serving his second consecutive suspension, has successfully lobbied one our local circuits to leave the "not in good standing with the USAE...." out of their prize lists. So now this particular trainer will be able to show all summer long..... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

************************************************** **********
Every great man has his disciples, and it is always Judas who writes the biography.
--Oscar Wilde

NinaL aka Chrissy
Mar. 3, 2004, 12:08 PM
In addition to clippin' and shippin' throw in routine dental work as a non-valid reason for a shot of Dermosodan, Ace, etc.

Let's talk about a gray area. What constitutes "routine dental work". Floating? Well, sure, except that in many cases these days "floating" involves the use of a dremel or other such electric tool. Most dentists I know (vet or otherwise) prefer that the horse be mildly sedated for this type of procedure. Safer for both horse and dentist.

So, dobbin gets his annual teeth floating done. Vet administers tranq because 1) horse doesn't like having his teeth done and 2) vet dislikes floating teeth more than the horse. One week later Susie Hunter Princes (SHP for short) goes to the USEF horse show of the week. Worried that Old Dobbin might have a trace amount of sedative left floating around in his system she heads to the steward to fill out a D&M report. Much to SHP's delight Old Dobbin sweeps the card (no doubt due to that great routine dental the week before) and is drug tested (SHP is delighted - she likes to see her drug $'s at work - she reads the COTH BB, after all).

Months later the letter comes - Old Dobbin had a trace amount of an illegal substance in his system and, no, routine dental work is not a valid reason. SHP; after paying fines, serving her suspension and reading numerous posts on COTH BB about what an evil person she is; vows that the next time Old Dobbin gets his teeth floated he will just have to suffer through it.

Vet, disappointed, removes reference to SHP's championship from the quarterly newsletter.

Now, audience, who is the horse abuser in this case?

Nina

Lord Helpus
Mar. 3, 2004, 12:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hopeful Hunter:
As someone who is struggling hard to understand how/when/why D&M forms are to be filled out; what the various signature titles mean to suspensions and such; and why the USEF publishes clearing times for drugs - implying to my little brain that they DO see the drug as being of legit value for use, 'cause if it was just BAD like cocaine or something they wouldn't PUBLISH a clearing time, right? - but won't allow D&M reports to be filed if they've been used outside of very limited circumstances....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. When to fill out a D&M report is really not that hard to figure out. If you have graduated from high school, you ought to be able to get your mind around the rules for this.

2. Publishing a clearing time for drugs is so that exhibitors have a guideline to help them understand the ramifications of administering certain drugs. The USEF is not saying that these drugs have no value. It is only saying that, if you need to use these drugs, then do not plan on showing within a certain time frame.

3. The USEF does not prohibit anyone from filling out a D&M report. It just does not take a completed report as evidence that you have complied with the rules, if the drug in question is not a drug that you are allowed to show on.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I have to say I think the current drug rules are Byzantine, trappy and almost impossible for otherwise intelligent professional people to decipher safely. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It really is not that hard. Many people are able to understand and follow the rules. Stupidity is not a defense.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I don't understand why drugs are allowed for A or B, but not for C. If the drug is feared to alter performance, or if it's feared it can be used for that, why not just outlaw its use in show animals? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ummmm, that is exactly what they are doing when they say that you are violating the rules if the horse shows while ANY of the drug remains in its system.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> As to most vets being "bad apples" I have to disagree and just hope I'm wrong. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No one has said that -- please reread the earlier posts. What was said is that SOME vets will administer whatever the trainer asks him/her to. That could mean 20 vets nationwide, out of a total of thousands of vets. No one has EVER said that most vets do that.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> BUT...I think everyone is confused at the rules. If the USEF is really a 501(c)3 would one grand way to use that status be to actually EDUCATE people on the drug issue? Offer seminars for everyone, heck even publish a booklet in lay language -- but do SOMETHING to help us to understand. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They do -- just ask for one.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If these suspensions are being caused by trainers using prolixin or reserpine for a layup 90 days prior to showing or something like that, then that's just a shame.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who has said this? People who have been caught? I find them less than credible, since they are hardly unbiased parties.

I don't know how much you show, or how hard you have tried to read and understand the drug rules. I hope that you are not really saying that professionals are not smart enough to understand them. That is certainly a naive attitude.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Do you know why they call it "PMS"? Because "Mad Cow Disease" was taken

SueL
Mar. 3, 2004, 12:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hopeful Hunter:
As someone who is struggling hard to understand how/when/why D&M forms are to be filled out; what the various signature titles mean to suspensions and such; and why the USEF publishes clearing times for drugs - implying to my little brain that they DO see the drug as being of legit value for use, 'cause if it was just BAD like cocaine or something they wouldn't PUBLISH a clearing time, right? - but won't allow D&M reports to be filed if they've been used outside of very limited circumstances....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, that's the thing. "Clearance" times are not withdrawal times and have no correlation to when the med actually affects the horse's performance. They are suggested guidelines for withdrawal from competition after which supposedly you should be able to show and if tested the test will be clear of the med and any of its metabolites. Unless the med administered falls under the umbrella of "okay for a medical situation/procedure" (and, for example, dental procedures DO NOT count) you cannot withdraw for 24 hours, file a D&M report and then show. Clear as mud huh? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif The problem seems to be that many of these longer-acting/time release meds do not actually seem to clear within the suggested guidelines.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I have to say I think the current drug rules are Byzantine, trappy and almost impossible for otherwise intelligent professional people to decipher safely. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have to say I totally agree with you - and that there is not enough leeway in the rules to allow for vets and owners/trainers to make intelligent decisions re' medical therapy for the horse.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I don't understand why drugs are allowed for A or B, but not for C. If the drug is feared to alter performance, or if it's feared it can be used for that, why not just outlaw its use in show animals? Surely there are other options for that therapeutic use? And if a "new" drug has a therapeutic use, and the USEF says "ok, but not if it's used within 45 days" shouldn't a D&M report be allowed to be filed ANY time that drug is used? My head is just SPINNING at trying to understand this...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Because the rule, as presently written, is byzantine, trappy and almost impossible for any logical being to decipher. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>As to most vets being "bad apples" I have to disagree and just hope I'm wrong. I don't think most vets are, just as I don't believe most doctors happily overprescribe Oxycontin or anything like that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have been around vet for myriad years and I can tell you that I heartily agree with you. Most vets are ethical IME. I do think that sometimes the best treatment for the horse and "what is safe for showing" may come in conflict.

MHO - again - I'd like to see the rules amended to allow more leeway in allowable uses OR to establish allowable trace levels of metabolites at which there is no pharmacological effect of the medication administered.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If these suspensions are being caused by trainers using prolixin or reserpine for a layup 90 days prior to showing or something like that, then that's just a shame. I'm sure that's only a few, but for those it's just sad that lack of understanding forces many of us to put them in the same box with the real cheats and abusers. I'd hope USEF might see the confusion and furor this is causing and do something constructive to address the issue -- from stiffer fines for owners and the horses tested to actual education and maybe reevaluation of some rules.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Plus summary from the actual testimony for and against the violators.

Sue L and Tommy, still worried about his pizza and potato chip habit....

DMK
Mar. 3, 2004, 01:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NinaL aka Chrissy:
In addition to clippin' and shippin' throw in routine dental work as a non-valid reason for a shot of Dermosodan, Ace, etc. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No kidding! I have a big horse who is a sweet, sweet soul, but is very claustrophobic in a trailer. Whenever I have a choice (like when I shipped him to FL to visit my old vet/chiro at Christmas), I gave him 3/4 of a cc of Ace every 5 hours. It by no means made him 100% comfortable, but I know it made him happier for about 3 of those 5 hours (and by consequence made ME the shipper happier!)

Do I think 1 1/2 ccs would make a difference in his performance if he showed 24-48 hours after I administered it? Nope. Not even close. Would I LOVE to be able to follow this routine and file a D&M when I show? Of course! But that just isn't a happening event.

"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony." - Monty Python

Tiramit
Mar. 3, 2004, 01:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NinaL aka Chrissy:
In addition to clippin' and shippin' throw in routine dental work as a non-valid reason for a shot of Dermosodan, Ace, etc.

Let's talk about a gray area. What constitutes "routine dental work". Floating? Well, sure, except that in many cases these days "floating" involves the use of a dremel or other such electric tool. Most dentists I know (vet or otherwise) prefer that the horse be mildly sedated for this type of procedure. Safer for both horse and dentist.

So, dobbin gets his annual teeth floating done. Vet administers tranq because 1) horse doesn't like having his teeth done and 2) vet dislikes floating teeth more than the horse. One week later Susie Hunter Princes (SHP for short) goes to the USEF horse show of the week. Worried that Old Dobbin might have a trace amount of sedative left floating around in his system she heads to the steward to fill out a D&M report. Much to SHP's delight Old Dobbin sweeps the card (no doubt due to that great routine dental the week before) and is drug tested (SHP is delighted - she likes to see her drug $'s at work - she reads the COTH BB, after all).

Months later the letter comes - Old Dobbin had a trace amount of an illegal substance in his system and, no, routine dental work is not a valid reason. SHP; after paying fines, serving her suspension and reading numerous posts on COTH BB about what an evil person she is; vows that the next time Old Dobbin gets his teeth floated he will just have to suffer through it.

Vet, disappointed, removes reference to SHP's championship from the quarterly newsletter.

Now, audience, who is the horse abuser in this case?

Nina<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I just called the USEF med line for this very reason. Bad weather had kept my vet away from the barn and delayed our routine dental work. I fretted because I have a show coming up, but know that my young TB would never stand still on his own. Ack!

What I was told was that for routine vet work, using dermosodan or rhompum, the time period was 7 days to leave the system. No D&M report required. My vet was very understanding of my barrage of questions over his selection of tranqs, but in the end it wasn't a worry for the USEF med folks because I have more than 7 days until the show. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

.................................................. .................................................. ......
"Whether you think you can or think you can't - you are right." -Henry Ford

Hopeful Hunter
Mar. 3, 2004, 02:11 PM
Lord Helpus -- well...I am just considering showing at larger rated shows, and frankly am mostly considering NOT doing so. Partly because I DO NOT want to violate any rules, and AM having a hard time figuring out the D&M rules. I've read them, and the PDF file on interpretation on the USEF site, but I'm still not clear on them.

I may simply be dumber than you, but I find some of the rules hard to understand. I also don't "get" the reasoning behind allowing a drug to be used for one therapeutic reason, after which you wait your 24 hours, file a report and show away, and the same drug being prohibited for use WHEN A LICENSED VET PRESCRIBES ITS USE ONLY for another therapeutic purpose - like teeth or stall rest. It leaves me going "huh? If it's ok for A, why not B?"

In addition to my stupidity, my inexperience handicaps me even more. See, I don't think for most people that they would realize that the clearance times published DON'T keep you in the clear if you're tested. If my horse was tranqued for dental work and I waited the clearance time, I would naively figure that he could then show....but I might well get "caught" because I didn't understand that a published "clearance time" has no bearing on testing results, and after all I couldn't file a D&M report because that wasn't considered an appropriate therapeutic use.

Take Tiramit -- as I'm trying to understand it, even though she called USEF and is waiting more than their 7 days, if the drug is still tested, she's busted. REGARDLESS of her having been concerned and checked, but because she used the tranq for a purpose for which one is NOT allowed to file a D&M report. Or am I wrong?

To me, these ARE byzantine rules. I have tried to read them, and the only thing I've gotten is "if the horse has ANY drugs or supplements you might not want to show."

I think the idea of establishing threshold trace levels is a very good one. THAT I can understand.

Katie_Rosenzweig
Mar. 3, 2004, 04:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lord Helpus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dab:
I don't know the particulars of this case, but the '72 hours' part of the explanation you heard doesn't add up --
I'm wondering who tested the horse the next day -- I wasn't aware that USEF turned drug test results around so fast ... Any chance the trainer had an independent test done the following day? -- I would think that USEF would be openning themselves up for a lawsuit if they suspended someone based on inconclusive test results --<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are right -- No USEF tests (taken in the normal course of testing) could possibly have results the next day. They have to be sent to the USEF's testing lab, and then the samples wait their turn for testing.

And, one might ask, why would Ms. Bond run her own tests the next day if she was completely unaware of the drug in the horse's system? And where would she get it tested within 24 hours? Most labs are not set up to run the same drug panel that the USEF runs, which is why the USEF set up its own drug lab.

Her story just does not make sense. Perhaps something has gotten lost in translation?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Do you know why they call it "PMS"? Because "Mad Cow Disease" was taken<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i probably misunderstood, i dont know for sure, it just sounded unfortuanate to me

~*~Rosey~*~
Who's That
Picasso
Mikhail

"It doesn't mean being noticed, it means being remembered." ~ Giorgio Armani

horselesswonder
Mar. 3, 2004, 05:14 PM
Ash, check you PT's. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Steve
Mar. 3, 2004, 05:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Medievalist:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beezer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sandstone:
what was the advantage of using a saddle bred in the morgan classes?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sure others more in the know can (and should http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC, it was to "juice up" the action of the Morgan -- i.e. use the higher-stepping/bigger moving Saddlebred to defeat the more traditional-moving Morgans. The Saddlebred's more extravagant action would -- in theory and, unfortunately, in practice -- eclipse that of the Morgan.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well it's the same thing that happens in all the saddleseat classes...morgan, arab, etc. The morgan people are known for it though - it's what wins in the morgan ring...something that looks and moves like a saddlebred. It defeats the point of having a morgan if the horse is supposed to move and look like a saddlebred. The morgan ring has been a travesty for years. Just check out any of the big time morgan barns online. They won't look like morgans, because in all liklihood, they aren't.

_http://www.eii.fr/club/houssaye_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



They really were breeding for height. The famous stallion Rhythm Nation who won the World Champion Stallion title a few years ago looked like a morgan except for his height...his breeder Bruce Ekstrom was a judge that year. He totally deserves the suspension.


Steve

Ghazzu
Mar. 3, 2004, 06:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weebonilass:
SueL,


There was an Arab case where the vet actually inserted black dye in a horse's eyes because "human eyes" are not allowed in the halter division. Comestic alternations have never been allowed in the Arabian breed and yet that vet performed several surgeries that were cosmetic and tried to pass it off as medically necessary. The trainer is currently serving a 5 yr suspension in the states, but doing just fine for himself down in South America where they don't recognize the suspension.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nah, it's worse than that.
The DVM did anesthesia so some local talent by the name of "Spider" could do the tatooing...

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

Hop On Pop
Mar. 3, 2004, 06:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ghazzu:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weebonilass:
SueL,


There was an Arab case where the vet actually inserted black dye in a horse's eyes because "human eyes" are not allowed in the halter division. Comestic alternations have never been allowed in the Arabian breed and yet that vet performed several surgeries that were cosmetic and tried to pass it off as medically necessary. The trainer is currently serving a 5 yr suspension in the states, but doing just fine for himself down in South America where they don't recognize the suspension.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nah, it's worse than that.
The DVM did anesthesia so some local talent by the name of "Spider" could do the tatooing...

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Pardon my ignorance but what are "human eyes"?

wesierobb
Mar. 3, 2004, 08:34 PM
"human eyes"...my best guess is that those would be with white showing...........

http://www.pzonearth.com

Ghazzu
Mar. 4, 2004, 05:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wesierobb:
"human eyes"...my best guess is that those would be with white showing...........

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes'm.
And I ought to mention, they're not "prohibited" in the halter ring, simply irrationally frwoned upon by many.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

Weebonilass
Mar. 4, 2004, 05:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ghazzu:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wesierobb:
"human eyes"...my best guess is that those would be with white showing...........

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes'm.
And I ought to mention, they're not "prohibited" in the halter ring, simply irrationally frwoned upon by many.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ghazzu,

Thanks for keeping the record straight.. you're right human eyes are frowned upon, it's the blue eyes that are illegal.

nelson
Mar. 4, 2004, 06:16 AM
Ash -

Are you talking about a local circuit here in PA? That is an interesting development, indeed.

If that's the case, I'm sure the regular exhibitors at that circuit will be thrilled that their shows will be open to suspended individuals, even though they apparently weren't in the past. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

Ash
Mar. 4, 2004, 06:36 AM
Nelson-

You hit the nail on the head. Apparently the "I will have no place to show this summer...." plea is a good enough reason for this association. So now a trainer suspended 2 times for drugging 2 different horses will be allowed to show. You know what they say: money talks and bull sh*#! walks.........

I wonder how the regular attendees of this circuit will feel about having to show against a suspended trainer and his string of "A" quality horses? Doesn't seem fair, does it?

************************************************** **********
Every great man has his disciples, and it is always Judas who writes the biography.
--Oscar Wilde

nelson
Mar. 4, 2004, 07:02 AM
Well, maybe if people get angry enough, he'll end up being the only one at the shows! Then the management of that circuit will really feel it in their pockets.

I know that if I was a regular exhibitor on that circuit, I would be extremely upset. Mostly because the circuit is allowing the past rules to all of a sudden be ignored to allow someone to come and "slum" and use the circuit for just one year! Do you really think this particular BNT would be caught dead at any of these "little shows" if he weren't suspended??? I think not!

horselesswonder
Mar. 4, 2004, 07:07 AM
Nelson,
Exactly. Not only is it a shame for exhibitors who don't have the animals to be competitive against the likes of this person's string, but it's also the principle of it. That is just plain wrong to allow a suspended trainer to use your shows for the summer. If that is really the case, I think I'll just be taking my greenie, whom I'd planned to show on this circuit while he gained experience, to the local rateds instead. They offer the same classes anyway. I'm hoping this isn't going to happen, but Ash is right, money talks.

nelson
Mar. 4, 2004, 07:11 AM
horselesswonder -

Sorry to hear that you are directly affected. Come show with us at the local rateds where the USEA rules are in place and enforced!!!

GreystoneKC
Mar. 4, 2004, 07:52 AM
This is rediculous. I hope a lot of people open their mouths and stop this from happening. Ash, check your PTs.

SoEasy
Mar. 4, 2004, 07:53 AM
He used to judge at some of them ... does that count? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I think I will print this part of the discussion

nelson
Mar. 4, 2004, 07:55 AM
Well, it sounds like horselesswonder is at least one person who doesn't plan to patronize the circuit. Maybe others will follow along.

horselesswonder
Mar. 4, 2004, 08:06 AM
It's really a shame, because I do love this circuit. It's where I started showing longer ago than I care to admit and where I returned after spending years doing the rateds. I was really looking forward to competing my greenie at these shows this summer; I was planning to pick and choose a mix of the local rateds and these shows, which would have made for a very pleasant show schedule.

Silver Bells
Mar. 4, 2004, 08:23 AM
What circuit? If it is unrecognized by a governing association, then what rule prohibits someone from showing at these shows that is prohibited from showing at rated shoes? If this circuit has their own set of bylaws, then it's their decision.

SoEasy
Mar. 4, 2004, 08:24 AM
CCHSA ... which has, previously, stated that it will run 'in accordance with the rules of the AHSA/USEF', and apparently does not this year.

Pocket Pony
Mar. 4, 2004, 08:45 AM
Geez, Lord Helpus, what the heck is your problem?

"1. When to fill out a D&M report is really not that hard to figure out. If you have graduated from high school, you ought to be able to get your mind around the rules for this. "

"It really is not that hard. Many people are able to understand and follow the rules. Stupidity is not a defense."

How rude can you possibly be? Here HH is trying to educate herself, asking serious questions, becuase she is interested in showing, and you haul off and insult her. No wonder people have a bad impression about our sport and the players in it. Do you have some personal beef with HH?

Not everyone is born knowing everything, as clearly you were. A little friendly help seemed to be all she was asking for...

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

"Both rider and horse must enjoy the work. This is the essence of success" - Reiner Klimke

KMZ
Mar. 4, 2004, 08:52 AM
Ah, so now his six page ad in the local horse sales magazine makes sense to me, he was advertising judging, sales, lessons, clinics etc... So he can still make a living with the judging, just on a local basis I must have been having a duh moment, because when I saw the ad, I was thinking silly him, he can't judge at a horse show. Oh well, guess I'm wrong.

cedarln
Mar. 4, 2004, 09:10 AM
Who is training/judging on the local CCHSA cicuit now b/c of suspension?

SueL
Mar. 4, 2004, 09:44 AM
Folks - you can agree/disagree with a local horse show's circuit's decision to allow a suspended trainer to show but you really can't do anything about it (except protest and vote with your feet I guess) The thing is, saying that the circuit "complies" with USEF rules isn't binding - they can follow what they want and do what they want the rest of the time.

This one reason why Snowbird makes such a big deal about local affiliated shows. The difference between your local association show that complies with USEF rules and a local affiliated show is that the local affiliated show has to follow the rules. You don't have to agree with Snowbird on everything but give her this - she runs her shows as an affiliated member. She would probably get just as many, if not more, entries if she dropped her affiliation and ran it as the Snowbird Horse Show Association.

The bottom line is - patronize your local affiliated shows if following the rules is important to you. If you like your local association then why not explore the possibility of the shows becoming affiliated local member shows?

Sue

horselesswonder
Mar. 4, 2004, 09:59 AM
SueL, not to be argumentative, but I don't really understand what you are responding to here. No one is suggesting trying to "do anything about it;" I think that, rather, we are expressing our disappointment at the possibility that this might happen. To me, there is a difference between running a circuit that is not required to comply with USEF rules (whatever the reason for that choice might be, I am guessing it's financial), and inviting someone who is serving two consecutive suspensions to show at your shows. I am sure that the playing field is not necessarily a level one at the local level - they don't drug test, after all. But permitting someone to show at these shows who has been suspended for twice altering the playing field via drugging to me is unseemly and unsportsmanlike, and I don't like it. Yes, those who run the local circuit may do whatever they please, but I don't have to support their choices with my pocketbook. Again, I am hoping this is merely a rumor and will not come to fruition. I guess we'll see soon enough.

Portia
Mar. 4, 2004, 10:08 AM
I think SueL's point, or part of it, is that unrecognized local circuits do very well piggybacking on the USEF rules, but they are not required to follow them and have no means of enforcing them. A local B or C rated recognized show, however, is both required to follow the USEF rules and has the backing of USEF resources in enforcing them.

While many don't see the benefits of USEF membership and recognition of shows, this is one of those instances where those benefits become apparent. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

nelson
Mar. 4, 2004, 10:23 AM
Horselesswonder - I feel exactly the same way you do about this issue.

It seems to me that CHANGING YOUR SHOW'S PREVIOUS RULES to allow a suspended trainer to compete (and maybe judge?) at your shows is almost the same thing (IMHO) as advocating his behavior and practices. This particular person was set down for 9 months for 2 separate D&M violations with 2 different horses. So, I can imagine it will leave a bad taste in alot of people's mouths if and when they have to compete against him at the local shows.

JMHO!!

SueL
Mar. 4, 2004, 10:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Portia:
I think SueL's point, or part of it, is that unrecognized local circuits do very well piggybacking on the USEF rules, but they are not required to follow them and have no means of enforcing them. A local B or C rated recognized show, however, is both required to follow the USEF rules and has the backing of USEF resources in enforcing them.

While many don't see the benefits of USEF membership and recognition of shows, this is one of those instances where those benefits become apparent. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Exactly my point Portia. Thank you. There are benefits in participating in an affiliated shows and there are benefits to a horse show association in having its member shows also be affiliates of the USEF.

It's just not for the "big names" even if it sometimes seems like it is.

Sue

Silver Bells
Mar. 4, 2004, 01:17 PM
Personally, I will stick with the rated shows.
I do not want a bunch of "self appointed deacons" at unrecognized shows changing things around from one week to the next. That is probably why they have their own shows to begin with. I say "live and let live". That's why we are fortunate to have all these choices to enjoy our hobby.

tyedyecommando
Mar. 4, 2004, 01:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by stillwaiting:
Can only speak for one name on the list- Belynda Bond. I don't know why drugs were being used, but this person DOES know how to ride without them. Several years ago, she fixed my baby green stopper when everyone else in Memphis was afraid to get on him (including his own mommy http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif on his worst days) I know for a fact that there were no drugs involved, because she only met us at the ring to school and go in for his classes. She demonstrated great patience and class in working with an animal who was nearly ruined by a green horse/green rider (me http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif) combination. Through her skill and influence alone, he learned to relax and go forward, finally deciding that he wanted to be a hunter after all... and I was eventually able to show him in the adults myself. And we lived happily ever after until I went back to school and sold him as a children's hunter. I don't know the circumstances of the current situation, but the Belynda Bond that I knew absolutely rocks!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

She might have been able to ride your horse, but the Belynda Bond I know is not someone I would want to be around more than 2 minutes and definately not someone I would let her on my horse. I have had a few personal incidents with her and am VERY unimpressed with her professionalism. She didn't get her nickname BB for nothing and it don't stand for Belynda Bond.

I am not suprised about one of the other Texas suspensions either. Also not a class act needing defending. The counter-part is nice though and I do not mind being around this person.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"No, that's wrong, Cartman. But don't worry, there are no stupid answers, just stupid people."
- Mr. Garrison, South Park

Jake's Dad
Mar. 4, 2004, 04:15 PM
nd he would never ask anyone to change there rules...you might want to take advantage that he has more time for lessons ,,,

Eddina Monsoon
Mar. 4, 2004, 04:30 PM
Jake's Dad, you must be married to BBer MOM.

Jake's Dad
Mar. 4, 2004, 04:42 PM
nelson sorry you got a small portion of my message ....who is the trainer that you are talking about????i think i know..jeff ayers? you think he went to the local shows and asked them to change their rules so that he could bring 007 etc and show this summer?...it is more likley they are asked him to judge and he MIGHT HAVE SAID you will have to say somthing different on the prize list for me to judge...nelson, if you can you should go to a show that he judges...it would do you a world of good ....

Jake's Dad
Mar. 4, 2004, 05:09 PM
sorry dont know who bb is ...what does she look like???

nelson
Mar. 5, 2004, 06:56 AM
Thanks for the advice Jake's Dad, but I beat you to it - I have actually already won at at least one show (a rated one) that he judged, that I think of off the top of my head. But, thanks anyway.

happy horse
Mar. 5, 2004, 06:58 AM
Does anyone know if someone suspended in the united states will also be suspended in Canada? Or vice versa?

nelson
Mar. 5, 2004, 07:00 AM
Great question frostbite - anyone know the answer?

happy horse
Mar. 5, 2004, 07:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scarlet 1:
I posted this on another thread on suspensions, it does include Mario's suspension, but not Larry Glefke's suspension. This was from USEF magazine.

Jeff Ayers, this time for 007 (in January it was for Social Secretary) fluphenazine. $6,000 and six months.

Laura Belmer of KY Showing Vanna, Fluphenazine and Ketoprofen, four months $3,000.

Belynda Bond of TX Showing Chilly, Reserpine, four months $4,000.

John Bragg of CA Showing Atlantis and Say the Word, Fluphenazine, six months $6,000.

Matthew Burke of TX Showing Sazza, Ace, two months $3,000.

Robert Cheska of WI for at least six years before he can reapply. Infraction was for orginal insurance fraud/horse killings and then showing up at a horse show.

Dan Cohn of CA Showing Grandiamo, Fluphenazine, five months $5,000.

Mario Deslauries of NH Showing Big Sur, Fluphenazine, three months $5,000.

John Gardner of GA abusing Slap Shot, horse abuse, one month $1,000.

Darcy Gordon of FL Showing Rosie O'Brien, Reserpine, four months $4,000.

Jayme Jamieson of NM, unsportsmanlike behavior, $200.

Jennifer Ledoux-Zendzian of CT, filing a false affidavit and unsportsmanlike behavior, six months and $2,000.

Sandra Lobel of NJ, showing Camden, Fluphenazine, four months and $5,000.

Alexandra Madigan of CA, behavior, two months and $2,000.

Eileen Maher of MS, behavior, one month and $1,000

Bruce Ekstron and Charles McCallister big issue over registering Saddlebred mares and Morgan mares. 20 years and $10,000 for Eckston and three years and $2,500 for McCallister. After suspensions they can reapply for membership, not guaranteed.

Mike McCormick and Tracy Fenney of Tx, showing Naboo, Grace, Laccord and Odette, Reserpine, Ten months and $9,000 for McCormick, $6,000 and six months for Fenney.

Rich Melville of UT for excessive beating of an Arab, "at least eleven, large, swollen, and hot whip marks on the right hip" and excessive sweating. Two months and $2,500. Kathryn Kizer, Owner got one month and $1,000.

Marty Morani of MD, showed Babarock, Fluphenazine, four months and $4,000.

Timothy Phelan of NY excessive whip use on HF Arielee, $2,000 and one month.

Zuze Rodrigues of OH, Addicted to Fame, Tied stallions testicles together with a leather strap, three months and $2,500.

Buddy Roulston and Carolyn Crawford Mikulec of TX, showing F.F. Mexacali, Fluphenazine, five months and $5,000 for Roulston and $250 for Mikulec.

Cam Smith of Canada, showing LuLu, Fluphenazine, four months and $4,000.

Melinda Sorenson of VA, showing MSM Mason Dixon Classic, bute, two months and $100.

B.J. Stiskin of NJ, showing Braveheart, Ace, two months and $2,000.

Barbie Ulbrich of NJ, showing Godsend, Ace, two months and $2,000.

Freddie Vasquez of IL, was suspended and trained in some way at a horse show, one year and then can reapply.

Nancy Verge of CO, showing Financial Power, excessively yanking on the reins and spurred and kicked her horse, two months and $750.

Diane Yeager of CA, showing Solitaire, Fluphenazine and Reserpine, six months and $6,000.

Cody Williams of FL, showing Money, acted as trainer at a horse show when he was not a member did not pay a non member fee and then excessively whipped the horse Money and poled a horse in the schooling ring. Three months and $5,000.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif Good job on the list...how do you get a hold of such detailed information??

wanderlust
Mar. 5, 2004, 07:10 AM
frostbite, as she said at the very top of her post, it came from the USEF magazine.

~formerly Master Tally~

SueL
Mar. 5, 2004, 08:52 AM
Jake's Dad -

please check your private topics.

Sue

tegotong
Mar. 5, 2004, 09:19 AM
frostbite, I asked EC this very question. They told me that EC does recognize USAEq suspensions. So all the Canadians on that list should not be able to show in Canada during the period of their USAEQ suspensions. I don't think that it goes both ways, however. I have heard of more than one case in the past, of Canadians suspended by EC who simply went down south for the period of their EC suspension and showed at American shows. I guess that once again, Canada is just too small a blip to make the American radar.

eclipse
Mar. 5, 2004, 09:42 AM
I guess we'll soon find out if the Canadians will stick to their suspensions or try to show here!! It's going to be an interesting show season to see & hear what "rumours" start floating around in an effort to cover up why said trainer is not at shows!!

"Don't bother me; I'm living happily ever after!"

Eddina Monsoon
Mar. 5, 2004, 10:38 AM
I said it because it seems as if you and MOM only come out to post when it is a thread regarding the suspended or (in MOM's case) those with records.

Silver Bells
Mar. 5, 2004, 10:39 AM
It seems to me that the discussion on the PV thread could apply here...
One thing remains true, there are plenty of choices where one can show.

happy horse
Mar. 5, 2004, 07:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by eclipse:
I guess we'll soon find out if the Canadians will stick to their suspensions or try to show here!! It's going to be an interesting show season to see & hear what "rumours" start floating around in an effort to cover up why said trainer is not at shows!!

_"Don't bother me; I'm living happily ever after!"_

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think a cover up can happen...the rumors I'm sure will be out of hand soon enought! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

happy horse
Mar. 5, 2004, 07:48 PM
The reason I was asking about the whole US - Canada suppension is I have a friend in the states who's trainer is on that list (not naming names) and they are thinking of taking a little hiatus up here. Is there anything we canadians can do to ensure this doesn't happen?
If you break the rules you break the rules you should just have to wait it out.

Hasty
Mar. 5, 2004, 08:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by frostbite:
The reason I was asking about the whole US - Canada suppension is I have a friend in the states who's trainer is on that list (not naming names) and they are thinking of taking a little hiatus up here. Is there anything we canadians can do to ensure this doesn't happen?
If you break the rules you break the rules you should just have to wait it out.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

frostbite-

i have heard of that happening before, actually on a few occasions...i don't know how you could prevent it unless you can get your horse shows to not allow people who are not in good standing with the USAE or something of that nature?

RHdobes
Mar. 5, 2004, 10:48 PM
I decided shortly before my old grade Morgan mare passed away (at the age of 37) that I wanted another. She was a slightly rotund, thick necked, heavy mane and tailed thing with legs and hooves of iron.

Over the years, the pictures that most resembled her (or vice versa) were those of Jubilee King/Brunk breeding. However, when I opened up a (recent) Morgan Horse magazine, I just about choked. Strange creatures stared back at me, more like poor-looking Saddlebreds than 'show' Morgans. Log-type heads, long backs, huge shoes and hooves shod up to THERE with unnatural action, wild eyes....

I told myself that if THIS is what the Morgan horse had become, I didn't want one. And then I read about the Bruce Ekstrom case. It also makes me wonder if there weren't OTHER Saddlebreds out there 'masquerading' as Morgans in the breeding shed.

The same thing seems to be happening in the Arabian horse circles. They either seem to force them to move in non-Arabian type or breed them (half-Arabians being registerable). They are always looking for the 'next big thang' as far as high stepping crosses---Saddlebreds, Friesians, Dutch Harness Horses, Hackney Horses, and yes, the Gypsy Vanner was recently mentioned, too.

If people want horses with Saddlebred type action why, for God's sake, can't they go out and buy a Saddlebred?

Luckily, as I started an Internet search, I found there are still some of the 'traditional' Morgan types out there---not enough, maybe, and probably not able to win in the show ring, but they ARE there.

Here's a question. Can the AMHA have its own sanctions against Ekstrom IN ADDITION to these imposed by USEF?

equit8not
Mar. 6, 2004, 08:35 AM
this forum is being used as a public lynching. I have never in my life seen a nastier group of malcontents. You should be ashamed of yourselves ; crucifying a trainer because of drug violation as if thats really your concern. If the person has been suspended and punished, why is there such venom? The PA group of riders all deserve each other. There is obviously a group set out to detroy a trainer. I cant imagine the crimes committed other than having this person beat you ,knowing the pettiness of your rants. And you use the guise of bettering the sport and fair play. I doubt it. A profiler would pick you special folks out as obessed and bent on detruction. Your venom would be better spent on improving your riding . You people have taken this too far. Can you imagine someone acting out on your father , mother or brother? You people cant stop. Threatening to black ball circuits? demanding a public outcry. My guess is riding/showing is an outlet for needs and attention you didnt get from your mommy. I see agendas beyond a drug violation. PS what is the relevance of a fancy string? Who made them fancy? WHo trains and schools them? The trainer. SO again you revel yourselves as sore losers . I trust you wont be able to stop the jaws from working overtime. You still wont win casting stones. Its jealousey and to deny it is a lie. This trainer , if its who I think it is is one of the most talented gifted instructors and worked his way up the ladder. I have ridden against his riders and was glad to be beaten by his talented riders and horses. Whats the point of winning if your competition is lousey?

DMK
Mar. 6, 2004, 08:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Whats the point of winning if your competition is lousey? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Conversely, what's the point of winning if it took performance altering drugs to get there? How "big" would you feel if you knew your success was due to cheating at the expense of others?

As for your gross generalization of a post, there has been a whole range of topics discussed on this thread. Some for, some against, some discussing problems within the system, problems within the unregulated shows and so on, problems with judging and so on. Quite frankly, given the width and breadth of topics discussed, I haven't a clue who you have a problem with, or why based on the spewage, above. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Sometimes I think I understand everything, then I regain consciousness.

MellowM
Mar. 6, 2004, 10:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Whats the point of winning if your competition is lousey? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Conversely, what's the point of winning if it took performance altering drugs to get there? How "big" would you feel if you knew your success was due to cheating at the expense of others?

As for your gross generalization of a post, there has been a whole range of topics discussed on this thread. Some for, some against, some discussing problems within the system, problems within the unregulated shows and so on, problems with judging and so on. Quite frankly, given the width and breadth of topics discussed, I haven't a clue who you have a problem with, or why based on the spewage, above. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

_Sometimes I think I understand everything, then I regain consciousness. _<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You go girl!!

dab
Mar. 6, 2004, 11:03 AM
Was it a CCHSA rule that their shows be run in accordance with USEF rules or is that a decision made by the individual shows? -- I know I've seen it in some prize lists, but not in others -- It's easy enough to avoid a particular show if I want to vote with my feet -- Do we know if all the show organizers were consulted about making a change to CCHSA rules? --

Madeline
Mar. 6, 2004, 01:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by equit8not:
this forum is being used as a public lynching. I have never in my life seen a nastier group of malcontents. &lt;snip major spew&gt; Whats the point of winning if your competition is lousey?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess if you're suspended you get a little bitter...

madeline

Silver Bells
Mar. 6, 2004, 03:32 PM
Eqit8not... There is only one trainer from PA referenced in this thread, Jeff Ayers. I know of no other person who worked harder, more diligently than he.
Everyone needs to move forward and get a life!
And Equit8not I agree with your post, as it has forced me to re-think my prior position.

portrock
Mar. 6, 2004, 03:39 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by equit8not:
If the person has been suspended and punished, why is there such venom?/QUOTE]
I have to agree with you. I have never used an illegal drug in my life. It's a matter of pride and sportsmanship with me. However, as much as I am for strict penalties, the aggresive hate of some posters is just not normal.

horselesswonder
Mar. 6, 2004, 04:54 PM
Actually, if you look at the thread where a poster asked about PA trainers, I said Jeff Ayers is talented and successful. And he is. No doubt about that. But he has also been caught and suspended for drugging two horses. i.e. Breaking the rules.I simply think it would be wrong and, yes, setting a bad example, to let someone who has been caught cheating compete at these horse shows. Often the CCHSA serves as a stepping stone to the rated circuit, and as new riders' introductory shows into this sport. It's not very sportsmanlike to cheat. Sorry, but that's how I feel about it. I would feel the same way if it was anyone else on the list. It's not venomous, it's called having a sense of ethics. I think a number of other people in this area feel the same way.

Oh and by the way, nowhere did I see a demand for a public outcry.

Slew Son
Mar. 6, 2004, 07:59 PM
What happened to doing this sport for the LOVE of the animal? This sport has gotten so out of hand it makes the horse in the backyard much more desirable.

zedcadjna
Mar. 6, 2004, 08:10 PM
Im surprised by some of the names I have read!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gifI rode w/ Don stewart for yrs, when I was a junior, and a few other people I had done some catch riding for.What some people will do for a ribbon. I have never had to drug any of our horses. I would much rather ride a fruit loop then a half knocked out horse.. But that is me..

Medievalist
Mar. 6, 2004, 08:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Here's a question. Can the AMHA have its own sanctions against Ekstrom IN ADDITION to these imposed by USEF?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm pretty sure that they have, from what I've heard from my saddleseat friends who are very much in the know. I'll ask one of them tomorrow.

I know for a fact that the big morgan breeders in our area have been crossing with saddlebreds on the side for years and showing them as true morgans, so your thoughts on the horses that you saw in the magazines are probably true. It's a terrible thing. I think that if you are looking for another morgan, the closest you will find to your old style morgan is the Lippett(sp?) morgan. There are some people on here who are proponants of the strain, and they look like 100% real morgans to me.

I'm a jumper person. I've never ridden a morgan or saddleseat in my life, but I have grown up in an area known for saddleseat (my cousins were world saddlebred champions multiple times as juniors and a few times as seniors, and one is still a pro), so I pay attention and appreciate the style. I love the saddlebred and I love the morgan, but I hate what is happening to the breeds. It is terrible.


and on another note
portrock, you are correct. It is not normal.

Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/club/houssaye)

equit8not
Mar. 7, 2004, 06:17 AM
I am not making a generalization . When I said this forum, I should have said this thread. I find it irresponsible for this thread to continue. The purpose is obvious. Is it to save horses? Absolutely not. Thats a crock. Funny, a few of the critics have ridden with the trainer mentioned. Isnt that ironic? PS The reality of the show world is such that not only the very rich can show. ALot of riders work or have families thus the pressure for horses that are made to death that will cart them around. Those clients dont always have the time to do all the riding and everyone must admit there are riders who damn well know their horses are drugged. This thread seems to imply the riders/owners have no idea. Thats untrue. They know it. They pay for it in board bills. Some are told when they buy "this horse needs a program" and we all know what that means. I think its client driven. Tell me a rider doesnt know what his horses ring prep is? If there werent any users, there wouldnt be any dealers. Hang the drug dealer. WHo feeds the need? Riders are buying horses so they can win. I have been screwed by a bad deal by a famous person. The horse was drugged. I regret it happened to me but it happens. I havent ever had the desire to share this in a public forum. People blame trainers for horses that dont turn out. IT happens. They are animals and there are no guarentees. I think riders need to share some of the responsibility. I take my share of the responsibility for buying the horse that didnt turn out. The writing was on the wall. Lets all grow up and be more constructive.

Silver Bells
Mar. 7, 2004, 08:39 AM
Equit8not... Your post once again is accurate. Your rhetoric is very familiar, and reminds me of someone I know, who went to school for journalism. Anyway... I agree, this thread is played out.
In the vein of good sportsmanship, we all need some compassion, since no one is above some sort of reproach.

CAH
Mar. 7, 2004, 11:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by equit8not:

Some are told when they buy "this horse needs a program" and we all know what that means.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Silly me. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif If someone said that to me, I would think, gee maybe a program of Adequan or Legend, with maybe an annual hock injection.

Oh well, guess thats what happens when you train with people that don't drug to win.

Medievalist
Mar. 7, 2004, 02:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RHdobes:
Can the AMHA have its own sanctions against Ekstrom IN ADDITION to these imposed by USEF?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I asked my saddlebred friend and Ekstrom has had his membership and judging papers pulled and the AMHA is trying to pull the papers on 50 of the horses that he bred that are related to the Summer Song mare in some way. These horses are worth over $3 million, so its a big deal. I didn't ask if he had been fined by them....I forgot, sorry. What is interesting is that the Summer Song mare has disappeared. He says she is off at pasture, but the general consensus seems to be that she has been sent to the slaughter house. As I understand it, she was a very nice saddlebred mare. Pity.

Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/club/houssaye)

Won2Keep
Mar. 7, 2004, 03:56 PM
I have not read this whole thread, but I have read enough to know that it is a vicious attack on one particular trainer. Some of you know who I am and how close I am to the situation and while I don't expect the hatred to end, there are some very important points that most of you are missing.

One, Jeff has had horses tested many, many times. You all act like he was tested twice and caught twice. He wins a lot and he is tested a lot. Many many times without traces of anything. I know the details of both incidents where he was supposively caught using illegal substances and one is incredibly suspect. After hearing his story and another suspended trainer's story, I would not leave my horse unattended at a show. Not for one minute. I would not rely on the night watchman at shows. Anyone can wander the barns at all hours and go unnoticed.

If you are sitting there reading this thinking that would never happen to you or your horse, it is because you are not playing in the big league.

My second point is this is a witch hunt and many innocent people are being hurt by the USEF. Owners, riders and grooms are all effected. Maybe it was time to clean up the hunter world, but NO EXCEPTIONS should be made for those who can make big contributions and get a trainer off the hook or because a suspended trainer can squeal on someone else. Fines should be set in stone for each infraction and suspension terms should also have similiar guidelines.

Jeff has an amazing talent as a trainer and has worked from the bottom up. Yes, he was caught and is staying off the show grounds and teaching lessons and clinics. Why should that bother anyone? If you want, boycott the CCHSA (or whatever it is) shows and let them know why. Talk with your money, but stop the personal attack.

I can personally guarantee that Jeff does not read these boards. And as he says, when they stop talking about you is when you have to worry.

Portia
Mar. 7, 2004, 04:07 PM
What evidence do you have that anyone "made a big contribution" to "get someone off the hook"? You may not like what happened to Mr. Ayers (whom I've never met and of whom I know little), but yours is a serious allegation against USEF, and it should not be made lightly or without solid evidence.

Also, what evidence do you have of a suspended trainer "squealing on someone else"? Mind you, I have no problem with one suspended trainer squealing on another one; ratting people out is a time-honored tradition in our justice system. It's how PV avoided jail time, after all. I'm just wondering what basis you have for thinking it happened in this instance.

RHdobes
Mar. 7, 2004, 04:25 PM
Medievalist, thanks for the information.

I know that the 'Lippitt' people are proud of their horses' 'purity.' I HAVE found out, by surfing the 'Net, that there ARE Morgans out there that look like Morgans. Funny thing is, many of them DON'T show---maybe that's the reason the horses look 'right' to me.

Another thing is the 'sport' Morgans. It seems that the Saddlebreddy-moving/looking Morgan is not quite the thing for open dressage/eventing/hunter, so it's possible I can find the Morgan of my dreams from those who breed for that.

Such a pity that people have to cheat and ruin a breed just for personal gain.

horselesswonder
Mar. 7, 2004, 05:28 PM
Perhaps I have missed the viscious attacks against Jeff Ayers somewhere else in this thread? Because the only viscious attack I see that came out of the CCHSA question is this one, by equit8not:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> A profiler would pick you special folks out as obessed and bent on detruction. Your venom would be better spent on improving your riding . You people have taken this too far. Can you imagine someone acting out on your father , mother or brother? You people cant stop. Threatening to black ball circuits? demanding a public outcry. My guess is riding/showing is an outlet for needs and attention you didnt get from your mommy. I see agendas beyond a drug violation. PS what is the relevance of a fancy string? Who made them fancy? WHo trains and schools them? The trainer. SO again you revel yourselves as sore losers . I trust you wont be able to stop the jaws from working overtime. You still wont win casting stones. Its jealousey and to deny it is a lie. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Erin
Mar. 7, 2004, 05:53 PM
Won2Keep, how can one trainer possibly "squeal" on another with regard to a drug infraction?

I interviewed Kent Allen for a COTH article about the USEF's drug lab last year, and he said that members often do try to give officials a "tip" on someone who they suspect is cheating... BUT that USEF doesn't act on those tips. They rely on their system of random testing and figure they'll catch up to the cheaters eventually.

I also don't understand your claim that this is a witch hunt and innocent people are being hurt. Why on earth would you blame USEF for hurting innocent people, rather than the people who were caught breaking the rules? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Sure, mistakes can happen (although I doubt they happen as often as people claim they do)... a horse could get the wrong feed, it could get more medication than it was supposed to, the trainer could have erroneously believed a drug had been withdrawn in time when it hadn't. But when a trainer signs that entry form, he or she is taking responsibility, and if the horse tests, they have to accept the consequences. As do the grooms, owners, what have you.

equit8not, are you trying to defend suspended trainers by comparing them to drug dealers??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif You might want to rethink that analogy!

I'm sure there are plenty of owners out there who know full well that their horses are drugged. But if the trainer signs the entry form, he or she had better be aware of what the horse is getting, because he or she is going to have to take responsibility for it. That's the way it works.

As to whether or not this thread is "played out"... these things always go the same way. There are people on each side who see things only in black and white -- either someone is the walking incarnation of evil, or they're God's gift to the horse world and incapable of wrong. Generally, the truth is somewhere in between. And if you can just skip over the posts from the black and the white camps, sometimes there's some good discussion in the middle. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

MsHunter
Mar. 7, 2004, 06:15 PM
I have not said anything on these threads, or barely. I will say however that I consider Jeff a friend and a good horseman. It is NOT my business to know HIS business. And viceversa. He has been one of the kindest most pleasant trainers I have ever been around ringside. Whether he drugged, he didn't drug, how much, why who did it who didn't, is NOT my business. I focus on what I do and how I do it.
I care not to judge others. I did that once in my venue Hunter Breeding, and I will tell you it doesn't ever get you anywhere. We bought one of the nicest horses we ever had in the barn owned by a regular poster here, that was sold to Jeffs barn. I have been there, they have been here. I don't see that relationship changing in the future. It must be a small world to live in when we judge others based on their actions as good/bad people or horseman.
I won't compare drugging to many other awful things I have seen or you have in the horse world, as then we start to once again decide what is better, worse, and so forth. Live and let live. Show where you want, when you want and focus on your horse, your program and your relationship with your trainer. This is supposed to be a hobby and a sport and we are supposed to enjoy it. That is what I am going to do, anyone else?

Owner/Trainer of http://www.geocities.com/plumstedequestrianctr/

Hexel
Mar. 7, 2004, 08:35 PM
Erin http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif. There is something to be said for finding the Happy Medium.

EQrider3885
Mar. 7, 2004, 09:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slew Son:
What happened to doing this sport for the _LOVE_ of the animal? This sport has gotten so out of hand it makes the horse in the backyard much more desirable.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Very much agreed. Well said.

~Child of the 80's Clique~
~Non-GPA Clique~
~Chicago Clique~
http://community.webshots.com/user/aubs3885

Flash44
Mar. 8, 2004, 07:45 AM
I don't think that this is a witch hunt, either. But from the consumer's point of view, don't you want to know which people are playing by the rules (successfully) and which are not BEFORE you do business with them?

I want to learn to ride better. Why would I spend my money on someone who resorts to a needle to get the best possible performance? I don't care that my horse is not a dead quiet automaton by nature. He has his little quirks, but overcoming these quirks and getting that good round out of him is what I strive for and what makes me improve as a rider. And what keeps it interesting for me.

nelson
Mar. 8, 2004, 11:28 AM
equit8not - I am surprised by your extraordinarily defensive and inflammatory posts. I have reread this thread and find no evidence of "demanding a public outcry", or calls for a "public lynching", or attempts to "destroy" anyone. All I see are people's opinions about the possibility that an unrecognized circuit of shows may change their previous rules to allow a suspended individual to participate. In point of fact, the name of the suspended individual at issue was actually not mentioned at all until, ironically, it was mentioned by one of his supporters who chimed in.

wtywmn4
Mar. 8, 2004, 01:11 PM
Nothing like semantics to screw up a good dialogue. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Somewhere in the gray area the truth is waiting. Its a big chess game folks. And we all play it. Only difference, there are living creatures who are the recipients of the moves we make.

Jake's Dad
Mar. 8, 2004, 02:32 PM
Erin:
The fourth paragraph answers your own question.
They sign as trainer, not baby sitter.
Equipt8not never defended the position of the
trainers for drugging horses.
For people saying the trainers drugged the horses, no they did not. The horses tested with
meds does not mean they gave it to them. Many
posters are taking that position. As far as
USEF not working on tips, phone calls, etc.
why would a trainer be tested seven times out
of nine shows. Doesn't that sound strange.
Random testing ?????

Eddina Monsoon
Mar. 8, 2004, 02:36 PM
Strange if no one else is tested a lot, but since many are, what is your problem? Because yours got caught?

Portia
Mar. 8, 2004, 02:40 PM
Jake's Dad, while the testing is random, as I understand it the D&M department does select certain prominent competitions to test. If the trainer in question has several horses at those prominent competitions, that person is likely to be tested more often than someone who doesn't attend those competitions.

Also, I don't know if this is the case or not, but it could be that if a trainer's horse is tested and comes up positive, or more than one of the trainer's horses test positive, then that trainer's horses may be selected for testing at subsequent competitions to help determine whether it is a pattern and practice of behavior. It would be rather difficult to successfully float the "it was an accident" defense when, for example, a trainer has a different horse turn up positive at four different shows within a few weeks of each other, like Mike McCormick and Tracy Fenney did.

ponygal5
Mar. 8, 2004, 02:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by elizabeth:
I have tried so hard to stay silent on this issue, but no more. Here's my opinion:

If you, as a professional, need to whip your horse or drug him in order to ride him, _MAYBE YOU SUCK_ and should take up another sport.

Now back to your regularly scheduled
programming. . . .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif I agree too!

&lt;\___~
..//.\\..
"Hong Kong Louey"
I &lt;3 horses 4 eva!
GPA lover**TB lover**WB lover
"We came, we jumped, we really did!!"
Eddie, Ty, and Louis
(}--{) ** Ride to live, live to ride!!
"If riding were all blue ribbons and bright lights, I would have quit long ago." ~George Morris

Eddina Monsoon
Mar. 8, 2004, 03:50 PM
Patsy, Patsy, where are you darling?

Jake's Dad or Jeff's Dad? Enquiring minds want to know.

Tackpud
Mar. 8, 2004, 04:04 PM
Having had the same horse tested at 4 out of the 5 shows it went to in one year, I can say it really is completely random. We had 10 - 12 horses at each of those shows and that one just happened to be in the ring when the testers walked up each time.

artsandletters
Mar. 8, 2004, 04:13 PM
Jeff Ayers is the most gifted trainer Ive ever ridden with . Everyone who has ridden with him has been groomed into a winner. He demands dedication and hard work. Regardless of your pocket book , you must practice. There are no divas. Alot of trainers will take a persons money and not care about how they ride. All trainers have strengths and weaknesses. If you want to be a rider he will take those "lacking" and turn them into winners. He will take talent to the top. He never degrades or humiliates or screams. He likes a work ethic. If you want your horse ring ready while you do nothing to get into the ring he isnt for you. If you want to go to the highest level you and your horse can go, ride with him. Ive never had so much fun and have never enjoyed riding as much as I did there. He has been a huge supporter of local shows. Many show managers were glad to have his large number of entries. We are all free to choose. Good luck to all

Steve
Mar. 8, 2004, 04:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RHdobes:
I decided shortly before my old grade Morgan mare passed away (at the age of 37) that I wanted another. She was a slightly rotund, thick necked, heavy mane and tailed thing with legs and hooves of iron.

Over the years, the pictures that most resembled her (or vice versa) were those of Jubilee King/Brunk breeding. However, when I opened up a (recent) Morgan Horse magazine, I just about choked. Strange creatures stared back at me, more like poor-looking Saddlebreds than 'show' Morgans. Log-type heads, long backs, huge shoes and hooves shod up to THERE with unnatural action, wild eyes....

I told myself that if THIS is what the Morgan horse had become, I didn't want one. And then I read about the Bruce Ekstrom case. It also makes me wonder if there weren't OTHER Saddlebreds out there 'masquerading' as Morgans in the breeding shed.

The same thing seems to be happening in the Arabian horse circles. They either seem to force them to move in non-Arabian type or breed them (half-Arabians being registerable). They are always looking for the 'next big thang' as far as high stepping crosses---Saddlebreds, Friesians, Dutch Harness Horses, Hackney Horses, and yes, the Gypsy Vanner was recently mentioned, too.

If people want horses with Saddlebred type action why, for God's sake, can't they go out and buy a Saddlebred?

Luckily, as I started an Internet search, I found there are still some of the 'traditional' Morgan types out there---not enough, maybe, and probably not able to win in the show ring, but they ARE there.

Here's a question. Can the AMHA have its own sanctions against Ekstrom IN ADDITION to these imposed by USEF?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe that Ekstrom is banned for life from AMHA sanctioned events. Which is very good for the breed. I personally have a really nice Park Morgan that I got for Chirstmas this year that is fiery and has a trot that you would not believe but he still lookes like a Morgan and you can tell that he is a Morgan, especially in his stall.

Horses like Born to Boggie and and TugHill Whamunition are amazing sires and performance horses that are 100% Morgan and its obvious...then there are the others from Maxine Snows breeding shed (another person who they tried to convict of crossing to saddlebreds unsuccessfully) that you can tell are saddlebredy. But overall, I believe Morgans are heading in the correct direction.

Steve

Steve
Mar. 8, 2004, 04:25 PM
The AMHA won their lawsuit and pulled the papers of the Chantilly Lace related horses, you can find out more at (AMHA WINS SUIT ON ALL COUNTS -SHR) (http://www.saddlehorsereport.com/content.aspx?cid=1567)

Steve

Erin
Mar. 8, 2004, 04:43 PM
Jake's Dad, whether or not the trainer gave the drugs isn't the point. If a trainer signs the entry, he/she is accepting responsibility. He/she may not have given the drug, and may not have known the horse had the drug in its system... but HE/SHE IS REPONSIBLE NO MATTER WHAT. They are not "innocent" under the USEF rules.

In my world, when you're caught breaking the rules, you sheepishly accept your punishment, say "oops, my bad," and do your penance, whatever it may be.

Let's hypothesize for a moment and suppose that trainer Joe Smith had a horse test, and Trainer Joe honestly had no idea the horse was on anything. Perhaps the owner of the horse withheld the information on purpose; perhaps the illegal drug was given by mistake and NO ONE knew about it; perhaps the owner mistakenly thought it had been withdrawn in time. In any event, Trainer Joe is stuck with a fine and a suspension when he did nothing wrong.

I would expect Trainer Joe to be livid at the owner of the horse if he was intentionally misled. I would expect Trainer Joe to be kinda pissed at being fined and supsended through no real fault of his own.

But I would not expect Trainer Joe (or any of Trainer Joe's friends, students or associates) to damn USEF for simply doing THEIR JOB and upholding their rules. If Trainer Joe were really not at fault, then his energy would be better directed toward making sure he trusts the folks whose entry forms he signs, and making sure his barn is run in a way to prevent mistakes from happening.

If this were the "real" world, and not the A-circuit bubble, I would expect Trainer Joe to accept his punishment like a grownup... instead, we get suspended trainers renting facilities just off the showgrounds so they can continue to train and judging unrecognized shows.

Sure, technically, such things are not in violation of their suspensions. And apparently the seeming hypocrisy of it (IMO) doesn't bother some show managers. But it DOES bother some people, and that's why this thread and the latest PV thread have gotten the reactions they have.

mbp
Mar. 8, 2004, 04:59 PM
And there you go! (clap clap)

So - does everyone else "know" that a horse that needs a program is one that needs to be drugged? I have had several discussions in the past about horses that "need a program" and they were all maintenance (esp. age related maintenance issues - it meant they needed turnout or handwalking or lunging on days off to prevent stiffness, maybe some Legend or Adequan, eggbars, maybe couldn't handle heavy competing etc. - everywhere else does it mean drugging?

You learn something new everyday.

I cannot really understand the diatribe from equit8not, but he/she spends some time specifically saying that the horses are being drugged, the owners know about it and are complicit, and the trainers are like the drug dealers - if you punish them the "owner/users" will just find another dealer.

So he/she doesn't seem to be saying that the trainers are "innocent" of anything but unknowing violations at all. Pretty much to the contrary. Also seems to be saying that it doesn't really matter how good the trainer is, they will have to drug anyway bc the owners will demand that even the good trainers drug. If that's so - then how can it be wrong to start cracking down? The owners' horses are being suspended too, right?

A lot of different opinions, but usually something good comes out of discussion and debate - hope it will here too.

wtywmn4
Mar. 8, 2004, 05:05 PM
Erin your point is an extremely valid one. My previous trainer, prior to retirement, had all owners sign a care/custody agreement. Literally you were not allowed to give your horse anything, without this person's knowledge. He would not take on outside horses that were not in his barn at shows, for just those reasons.

It is a sad legacy our business has come to, when trainers have to watch their backs so carefully.

Silver Bells
Mar. 8, 2004, 05:17 PM
Let's all give Jeff Ayers a break... besides his 15 minutes are up!

happy horse
Mar. 8, 2004, 06:11 PM
I have to say that I "almost" agree with equit8not. Up here in Canada our show circuit is so close knit that everybody "thinks" they no everyone elses business. You have to realize that these out of control rumors are playing with peoples lives. Yes people make mistakes and being suspended is enough punishment. Unfornately these trainers don't make enough money to fight court cases for months on end. The "said trainer" here in Canada has been in the business for years...with some of the best horses in these parts. If this person had been so called druging all his clinets horses all these years - wouldn't they have been caught before now?? There of been numerous wins and numerous drug tests -all clean. Mistakes happen and ill advice from vets alike does occur. So before you start making crude comments and out of line remarks at horse shows...maybe you should get both sides to the story.

Pet Psychic
Mar. 8, 2004, 07:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jake's Dad:
As far as USEF not working on tips, phone calls, etc.: why would a trainer be tested seven times out of nine shows. Doesn't that sound strange. Random testing ?????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hold on! Let me get Oliver Stone on the phone. I see a great conspiracy theory flick in the making!

Do you honestly believe that the Federation secretly maintains a list of professionals they enjoy annoying with drug tests? Yeah, right. And I happen to have a poodle that barks out the winning Lotto numbers based on how his kibble falls in his dish each night. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Pet Psychic says: "If the horse is too much animal for you, try a gerbil."

ALF
Mar. 8, 2004, 07:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Do you honestly believe that the Federation secretly maintains a list of professionals they enjoy annoying <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They openly maintain such a list.

Erin
Mar. 8, 2004, 08:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Silver Bells:
Let's all give Jeff Ayers a break... besides his 15 minutes are up!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Allow me to be blunt, Silver Bells... why?

Why is this not a valid topic of discussion? I haven't seen anyone here claim Jeff is an awful person or an awful trainer. To the contrary, many people have had very nice things to say about him.

People have said that, in general, they would not want to train with a trainer who "drugs," period. That's their prerogative, and it's up to them to determine what meets their definition of "drugging."

But look at some of the most contentious threads on this forum over the last couple of weeks. Ken Kraus, a convicted sex offender arrested for possession, who holds a job at a prestigious show circuit. Paul Valliere, convicted of having a horse killed and defrauding an insurance company, being asked to judge a prestigous non-USEF-sanctioned equitation class. Jeff Ayers, a trainer suspended for having a horse under his care test for an illegal substance, judging at a non-USEF-recognized circuit. Anyone notice a pattern?

On every one of those threads, defenders of the people in question cry "Public lynching!" "Witch hunt!""Mind your own business!" They vehemently assert that this discussion shouldn't be happening, because if you knew Person X, Y, or Z, you'd know what a wonderful person they are, and they don't deserve this.

Uh, people? What, does the suspended person have to be Ted Bundy before it's appropriate to discuss a sanction that is part of the public record?

I don't see the friends of NFL or NBA coaches claiming that the sportswriters who criticize them are seeking attention they didn't get from their mommies. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Oh wait... silly me. I thought this was supposed to be a sport... y'know, one of those things with rules and regulations and a level playing field. I guess I missed the memo about it being an old boys' club with a strict "Don't ask, don't tell" policy. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Erin
Mar. 8, 2004, 08:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jake's Dad:
As far as
USEF not working on tips, phone calls, etc.
why would a trainer be tested seven times out
of nine shows. Doesn't that sound strange.
Random testing ?????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you play by the rules, it shouldn't matter if you got tested at EVERY show. Why would it bother you? (Generic "you.") You wouldn't have anything to hide.

And I'm not bringing this up in reference to any specific individual mentioned on this thread. I just find the comment kind of odd.

happy horse
Mar. 8, 2004, 08:22 PM
Does anyone wonder how all these "big name" trainers/riders got caught for the same drug? You would think that these people work closely with veternarians. And just out of curiosity how long does motecate stay in a horses system, and what are some of the side effects? And one more question...how much does a shot of modecate cost?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

JEP
Mar. 8, 2004, 10:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by frostbite:
Does anyone wonder how all these "big name" trainers/riders got caught for the same drug? You would think that these people work closely with veternarians. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As evidenced by the number of "current horse show trends/what color shirt is "in" right now/GPA/breeches/nicest saddle" etc threads, the horse show world thrives on trends. Unfortunately, these trends extend beyond the world of fashion. Horse people are an incestuous bunch, and everyone seems to know everyone else's business.

BNT trade horses, clients, services, tips, etc. When one trainer catches wind of a drug that supposedly "won't test", it does not remain "inside information" for too long.

While I can't speak for all the trainers on the list, the ones that I know and have talked to about their suspensions trace their reasoning for using reserpine back to information by the same source.

re: your question about veterinarians--Unfortunately most of these trainers DO work closely with top vets (often the same ones). If the drugs don't come from Europe, they have to be purchased from/recommended by someone. You can bet your butt that some of the vets out there know better than to attribute the quantity of reserpine circulating the show grounds to precautionary, "stall rest" purposes.

JEP
Mar. 8, 2004, 11:10 PM
Ok, the editing thing isn't working (hopefully this will!).

I'd like to qualify the bit about horse show vets in my previous post by saying that I certainly do NOT blame this situation solely on the vets themselves. It is trainers, not vets, that are looking for injectable shortcuts. Some (not all) BNT have big time money and are willing to pay top dollar to someone that can increase their clients' chances of winning-that's how they keep bringing in the big time clients/sponsors.

However, I honestly believe that the trainers/owners/vets involved with intentionally (and repeatedly) drugging horses ARE a select and specific minority. I only bring up the vet topic because it frustrates me that some (however small the number) of the very individuals that we entrust to act in the best interests of our horses' health and welfare have contributed to the deliberate and potentially dangerous misuse of drugs in the show ring.

Weatherford
Mar. 9, 2004, 12:03 AM
Interestingly enough, a friend of mine here in Ireland, who is a vet, said if any of his horses/ponies were found showing here with ANY kind of sedative (herbal or not), not only would he be out of the NGB, but he would lose his lisence to practice!

Period. End of story.

So, he is looking into feeds and feeding and the effects of protein, fats, carbohydrates, etc on ponies' temperments and showing behavior. (He is currently thinking along the lines of Atkins http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

There ARE other alternatives availablt to a good horseman.

(FYI, the vet mentioned about has bred and produced several International horses, including one that competed for the US with Michael Matz.)

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Khamian Farms
Mar. 9, 2004, 04:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MsHunter:

It must be a small world to live in when we judge others based on their actions as good/bad people or horseman.

I think I am quoting Robby Johnsonhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif"What the fuh?" What other basis is there to judge, if not by someone's actions? If someone has done something AWFUL, like molest a child or kill a horse for insurance money, well, he deserves to be judged, and judged harshly. Medication infractions, not as big a deal IMO, and possibly a legitimate mistake - but against the rules and worthy of punishment and public knowledge regardless, no matter how wonderful a person or how talented a trainer the suspended party may be.http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

&lt;snip&gt; Live and let live. Show where you want, when you want and focus on your horse, your program and your relationship with your trainer. This is supposed to be a hobby and a sport and we are supposed to enjoy it. That is what I am going to do, anyone else?

Owner/Trainer of http://www.geocities.com/plumstedequestrianctr/<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, that IS what we do, on a VERY small scale. It is a hobby and is supposed to be a SPORT. IMO, a SPORT has rules that need to be followed. In tennis, you don't see the linesman or the umpire say, "You know, I really like Andre Agassi - so even though the ball he just served was outside the boundaries, let's pretend we didn't see that and call it an ace so he can win the game - he's a good guy." If such a thing did happen, the fans would not tolerate or support it.

The horse show world does not really seem to be "live and let live" - it is more "don't ask/don't tell". This appears to be changing, and I think this is a good thing.

You know, it IS my business to know if a show has a staff member who is a convicted child molester.....it is my business to know if a professional whose services I am considering has been, or is currently, suspended, (and to know what that supension is/was for), so that I can make INFORMED decisions regarding a SPORT for which I spend a lot of time and money.

Julie
www.caspianpony.com (http://www.caspianpony.com)

portrock
Mar. 9, 2004, 04:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jep:
I'd like to qualify the bit about horse show vets in my previous post by saying that I certainly do NOT blame this situation solely on the vets themselves.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How generous not to blame 'solely' the vets!
Do you have any proof, or are you attacking the vets just because you feel like it.

Lord Helpus
Mar. 9, 2004, 05:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by herewegoagain:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Do you honestly believe that the Federation secretly maintains a list of professionals they enjoy annoying <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They openly maintain such a list.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm, If the list is openly maintained, I would like to see a copy of it. Can you get us one?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Do you know why they call it "PMS"? Because "Mad Cow Disease" was taken

radio talk Aefvue Farms RCA
Mar. 9, 2004, 05:45 AM
Weatherford, I love it. Its very nice to know some countries take this seriously. Unfortunately for us, we have proven over and over again, it's okay in the "sports world". Guess it all goes back to the morality issue. We seem to think anything is okay in order for the win.

JEP
Mar. 9, 2004, 05:47 AM
I'm sorry if my post came off as though I were making an attack on vets in general. I tried to clarify that in my next post, but I guess I didn't do a good enough job articulating my point.

Basically, I was just trying to express my disappointment that some of our vets, the very same people we look to in order to keep our horses safe and healthy, knowingly contribute to the "doping" of horses under their care.

I won't claim to have "proof" of anything, because there are clearly about a million sides to every story. However, a few different people who have been caught up in this recent mess have mentioned the same name when talking about the circumstances leading up to their suspensions.

Could they be lying to me? I'm sure that's possible, but they have never lied to me in the past (that I'm aware of) and I don't have reason to think they would start now.

[Please spare us any "they are cheaters=liars=bad people" comments(not directed at you, potrock, I meant that to everyone-trolls and otherwise).
Regardless of their errors in judgment, some of these trainers are people that I care about a good deal, and I'm sure I'm not the only poster in this situation. I don't mean to rant/preach at anyone, I just wanted to remind everyone that these are sensitive issues to a lot of people and we ought to bear this in mind when posting.]

One of the very best vets to ever work on any of our horses has (regretfully) admitted to me that he contributed to an incident resulting in a trainer being "set down" for a drug violation. Do I still think he is one of the most knowledgeable vets in the business? Would I still call him for advice if my horse were injured? Yes. But it did open my eyes to the fact that in some of these situations, there's more going on than meets the eye.

I hope you all can understand that I in now way meant to "attack the vets"-I merely wanted to point out my dismay in learning that even the people I trust most with my horse's well-being make unfortunate decisions from time to time that aren't in the best interests of our horses....

becca's boys
Mar. 9, 2004, 06:13 AM
jep-
I thought your posts were very well articulated as well as right on the money (no pun intended). http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[This message was edited by a/o jumpin on Mar. 09, 2004 at 05:20 PM.]

Tory Relic
Mar. 9, 2004, 07:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Khamian Farms:
You know, it IS my business to know if a show has a staff member who is a convicted child molester.....it is my business to know if a professional whose services I am considering has been, or is currently, suspended, (and to know what that supension is/was for), so that I can make INFORMED decisions regarding a SPORT for which I spend a lot of time and money.

Julie
http://www.caspianpony.com
_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed.

Ash
Mar. 9, 2004, 08:36 AM
First off, I would like to set the record straight. I never mentioned Jeff Ayers name in my original post. I like Jeff and I think he is a talented trainer and rider. I don't, however, like what he did. I was expressing my disgust at our local show circuit for changing their previous policy of not allowing members "not in good standing" with the USEF to participate in their shows. This local show circuit has been the start of many riders in this area; I for one spent my first years at these shows before moving on to the rated shows. My only point in bringing up any of this is I think it sets a bad example and it sets a precedent. So what does this association do from now on? Leave that clause out from here on out? It was obviously put there in the past for a reason. Wonder what that was? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

I find the lack of accountability startling, distressing and just plain sad. So now (according to Won2Keep) we are supposed to believe that someone from the USEF snuck into the tents at night, drugged Mr. Ayer's horses then tested them? That he is on some sort of a black list? Or is this a case of mixed up feed buckets? Give me a break! Every day in my job I have to hear about how it it someone else's fault that they didn't pay their child support, got a DUI, didn't pay their taxes etc. Is the concept of accepting responsibilty for one's own actions such a hard concept to grasp? It is getting to the point where I am beginning to fear for the future of the human race. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

************************************************** **********
Every great man has his disciples, and it is always Judas who writes the biography.
--Oscar Wilde

[This message was edited by Ash on Mar. 09, 2004 at 11:44 AM.]

nelson
Mar. 9, 2004, 09:11 AM
Here here, Ash!

Blame-shifting has become a national past-time! It is very distressing and disheartening.
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Giddy-up
Mar. 9, 2004, 09:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jake's Dad:
As far as
USEF not working on tips, phone calls, etc.
why would a trainer be tested seven times out
of nine shows. Doesn't that sound strange.
Random testing ?????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you play by the rules, it shouldn't matter if you got tested at EVERY show. Why would it bother you? (Generic "you.") You wouldn't have anything to hide.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here, here!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif I have said that for years. What's wrong with being tested if you know you have nothing to hide? It's the people that constantly complain about being tested or the possibility of it that makes me wonder if perhaps they are trying to hide something. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

"...but now the gloves are coming off and it's going to get ghetto." Robby Johnson

LHART
Mar. 9, 2004, 09:29 AM
I think that it is sad how Jeff is being bashed. Many trainers are on the "LIST". Why is he the only one spoken about, I'll tell you why -JEALOUSY!!!!!

Jeff has a tendancy to win. I can see why you don't want his "string of A circuit horses" comming to your shows.

What he did was STUPID, as was for a majority of A-circuit trainers who got suspended. I hope he learns from this, as he it the most talented rider and trainer I have ever met.

The local area owes alot of graditude to him for producing MANY great riders and horses.

Weebonilass
Mar. 9, 2004, 09:39 AM
Hmmmm if he did it twice... I think a case can be made that he's doing it and to darn with getting caught. And I don't believe he was "bringing his string of A circuit horses" but judging.

I worked for a fellow that had been "caught" because his vet failed to file the form prior to the show. I remember going to nationals with him and everyone of his horses were "randomly" selected for drug testing and yours truly got selected to hold them. Wasn't bad except for the one mare that refused to pee anywhere but her own stall. After her second "random" test, the guy agreed to follow me back to her stall with someone else to test her there. And she went almost the minute that she entered the stall http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Erin
Mar. 9, 2004, 09:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LHART:
I think that it is sad how Jeff is being bashed. Many trainers are on the "LIST". Why is he the only one spoken about, I'll tell you why -JEALOUSY!!!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, because he is the only one for whom a circuit CHANGED ITS RULES so that he could judge while suspended.

Ash
Mar. 9, 2004, 09:53 AM
LHART, what are you talking about?

1)Jeff got mentioned only because one of his clients posted his name on this thread. We are "bashing" the association who changed their practice to accommodate a trainer who has been suspended by the USEF and has no where else to show and/or judge!

2) This particular trainer would never show at these shows had he not been suspended and forbidden to attend the shows he would really like to attend.

3) Perhaps you should re-read mine and other posts stating that they like Jeff and admire his talent.

4) Of course it was stupid to drug 2 different horses on 2 different occasions but it is even stupider to blame the USEF for drugging those horses

5) I would never be jealous of a cheater. And for the record I do not show at these local shows, I do however show at the big A rated shows and consistently beat Jeff's students.

6) Yes, I am grateful to Jeff since he taught be TONS when I rode with him. It certainly doesn't mean I have to excuse his breaking the rules.

So can we now get back to the real issue, that of the CCHSA changing their policy and STOP MAKING THIS ABOUT A CERTAIN TRAINER! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

************************************************** **********
Every great man has his disciples, and it is always Judas who writes the biography.
--Oscar Wilde

horselesswonder
Mar. 9, 2004, 09:55 AM
Oh come on LHART. If you go back and read the thread from pages 5 to 10, I think you can answer your own question (i.e. "why is he the only one spoken about?"). Further, a number of trainers were discussed, so your question is moot.

And as Nelson pointed out, Jeff's name was not mentioned until Jake's Dad posted this little gem:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> nelson sorry you got a small portion of my message ....who is the trainer that you are talking about????i think i know..jeff ayers? you think he went to the local shows and asked them to change their rules so that he could bring 007 etc and show this summer?...it is more likley they are asked him to judge and he MIGHT HAVE SAID you will have to say somthing different on the prize list for me to judge...nelson, if you can you should go to a show that he judges...it would do you a world of good ....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That whole portion of this thread probably would have died a quiet death were it not for Jake's Dad's and equit8not's rantings.

You know, someone new to SE PA who is considering trainers would come away from this thread knowing that Jeff had received two suspensions and fines for drugging horses, was rumored to be planning to attend or judge unrated shows this summer, and is highly-thought-of as a trainer and person by many posters, including myself. But the person would also have discovered that Jeff has some obnoxious, immature and nasty clients, if Jake's Dad and equit8not are clients, as I suspect they are. Frankly, were I thinking about trainers, the thought of encountering Jake's Dad and equit8not on a regular basis would make me think twice about Jeff. And knowing Jeff, he would probably be distressed reading their posts.

If you want to argue - in a thoughtful, persuasive and intelligent manner - that Jeff should be permitted to attend and judge unrated shows, by all means do so. But I have to tell you, the inflammatory posts in which you degrade posters about whom you presumably know nothing really just reflect poorly on you and therefore on Jeff. Same for you, LHART. What on earth do you know about me (or Nelson or Ash or anyone else) that would suggest to you that I am jealous of Jeff?

Ash
Mar. 9, 2004, 10:16 AM
Good post Horseless!

Total agreement here. If it wasn't for Jeff's clients (and for the record, Jake's Dad is Jeff's father) this thread would never have gotten ugly.

I, for one, admire that Jeff has had so much success. I remember when he was just starting out. I remember when the EEPHA honored him as horseman of the year and his entire family attended the banquet in support of his accomplishments. Why, oh why, can I not dislike the fact that he got caught CHEATING with out being accused of being jealous, nasty, being on a witch etc?

I bet Jeff would not be happy that his clients are on here accusing the USEF of drugging his horses and perpetuating his infractions.

************************************************** **********
Every great man has his disciples, and it is always Judas who writes the biography.
--Oscar Wilde

shade
Mar. 9, 2004, 10:35 AM
As I have stated about other suspended trainers...if they are SOO GOOD then why did they have to drug these horses??? If they are such fabulous trainers then they should not have to resort to drugging to win. Hence they can't be THAT great. And don't give me that bull about a mix-up in feed or someone else did it. If you believe that then I have lakeside property in Arizona for you to look at..

nelson
Mar. 9, 2004, 11:58 AM
Some very valuable points have been made on this thread. Namely:

1. If you have nothing to hide, you shouldn't care if you get tested at EVERY blessed show!

One of the horses that I showed in the adults several years ago was tested at 4 shows in 2 months. She was winning alot at the time, but I didn't feel the need to cry "Conspiracy!" or "Jealousy!". I also wasn't the least bit worried since we didn't have to cheat to win.

2. No one in their right mind would ever be jealous of a barn/trainer that had to use chemistry to get their horses to the ring!

Where I ride, we pride ourselves on the fact that we do very well at the shows without having to cheat. To us, having a horse "in a program" means riding it regularly. It has nothing to do with a "program" of illegal drugs.

equit8not
Mar. 9, 2004, 11:58 AM
I am not a client and I hoped Id be accused of same . It may prove that if I thought some of the people here were on a witch hunt and I thought this had gotten out of hand, Id be bashed for saying so .You played into my hand and accused me of being a client because I thought this had gone to far. For those not in the PA area, there is conduct unbecoming in the PA area as far as this person goes. You all know who you are. Its a small world and news travels. Some involved are posters on this subject . For some , this isnt an unbiased subject. There are some truly voicing concerns without motive and I respect that. I think the hunter world can be so small and petty. There are some good people out there as well. Enjoy the debate.

Ash
Mar. 9, 2004, 12:10 PM
equit8not- What are you trying to say? God knows I have no idea because that is the most incoherent post I have ever seen.

hmm...7 posts and everyone on a drug related suspension thread. If not a customer madly defending the disgraced, then maybe you are a troll?

************************************************** **********
Every great man has his disciples, and it is always Judas who writes the biography.
--Oscar Wilde

Coreene
Mar. 9, 2004, 12:22 PM
For all of those who scream "witch hunt" and "unfair," there are many of us who continue to wonder why known druggers are not tested.

horselesswonder
Mar. 9, 2004, 12:33 PM
equit8not, I've played right into your hand? Well goodness me, clearly you are the superior intellect here.

What on earth are you talking about in that post? "Conduct unbecoming in PA?" What? Surely you are not accusing me of anything - I haven't even shown since 1999 because I've been busy with grad school.

We are all still waiting for that thoughtful, intelligent and persuasive post which you, as the superior intellect, surely must be capable of producing.

nelson
Mar. 9, 2004, 12:46 PM
equit8not - all I have to say is HUH? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif It's a shame that you apparently cannot acknowledge any opinion that is different from your own without dramatic innuendo and accusations.

sage
Mar. 9, 2004, 02:08 PM
I was just reading the thread, and didn't realize that Jeff was in PA. I will probably be moving to Doylestown, PA from North Carolina with three of my pre-green horses. I am hoping that Jeff is close to that area, does anyone know? I hope so, I know he is good with the young ones, and will be a really good suit when they start the 1st yrs. Where I am in N.C., there are no good trainers (well, at least not within a 3 hour trip http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif ). Also, how much is each ride, or does he just have training board? Does he normally go to Vermont/Florida?

Thanks for any help!!

sage
Mar. 9, 2004, 02:15 PM
I was just reading the thread, and didn't realize that Jeff was in PA. I will probably be moving to Doylestown, PA from North Carolina with three of my pre-green horses. I am hoping that Jeff is close to that area, does anyone know? I hope so, I know he is good with the young ones, and will be a really good suit when they start the 1st yrs. Where I am in N.C., there are no good trainers (well, at least not within a 3 hour trip ). Also, how much is each ride, or does he just have training board? Does he normally go to Vermont/Florida?

Thanks for any help!!

sage
Mar. 9, 2004, 02:16 PM
Sorry for the dup, it's my first time http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

mbp
Mar. 9, 2004, 02:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Conduct unbecoming in PA <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've told PA over and over - don't go online and be so unbecoming!

MA and PA never listen.

LHART
Mar. 9, 2004, 02:45 PM
aS POSTED MY HORSELESSWONDER:

"That whole portion of this thread probably would have died a quiet death were it not for Jake's Dad's and equit8not's rantings."



............... You want to be free to speak, but not be answered by his loyal following . You do know that your on a DISCUSSION forum, don't you ?!?!?!?! I guess you think this is a dictatorship - how nice for you.

hehhe http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

horselesswonder
Mar. 9, 2004, 03:05 PM
Still waiting for one of you to contribute something, anything, intelligent and worth reading to this discussion. Can just one of the three of you (Jake's Dad, equit8not or LHART) actually post without resorting to mud-slinging, name-calling, or incoherent accusations?

By the way, I agree that you are perfectly free to post your opinions. I was merely pointing out in the sentence that you quoted that you people shot yourselves in the collective foot. Again, Jeff's name probably would not have been mentioned had it not been for one of his "loyal followers," and the discussion on the CCHSA probably would have gone away (which seems to be what you all want) had you refrained from posting inflammatory and generalized accusations of jealousy, witch hunts, conspiracies and lest I forget, poor riding skills, on the parts of other posters. By all means, keep the thread rolling. It does so spice up my work day.

Coreene
Mar. 9, 2004, 03:08 PM
Rollin' rollin' rollin' ... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

cedarln
Mar. 9, 2004, 04:51 PM
Oh my goodness -

this anti-Jeff clan sure is nasty

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif oh my http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif


PEACE

Erin
Mar. 9, 2004, 06:40 PM
My, the pro-Jeff clan sure is a close-knit bunch! Why, sage, cedarln and LHART are so close that they are all apparently posting from the same computer in Pennsylvania!

IP addresses are a wonderful thing... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Please, if you want to participate in the discussion, do so honestly. Don't pretend to be something you're not.

happy horse
Mar. 9, 2004, 06:44 PM
That is the funniest thing I've heard all day...my my how stupid they must feel now! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

JEP
Mar. 9, 2004, 07:07 PM
Erin! I know you hear this all the time, but you really are my favorite super hero of all time!!!

I am a relatively new member of this board and I must confess that when I first came here, I was reading through posts and thought, "wow, these people must really need this Erin chick to do them a favor or something, because all they ever do is tell her how awesome she is".

A few months later, I am a confirmed addict, and have since seen the Erin light! Thanks for making me grin foolishly at my computer (again). Maybe you should run for president. Clearly us COTHers have more influence on the non www world than one might assume...

Now that I've concluded my first Erin is a rockstar ramble, I am waiting with baited breath to hear how the sage/cedar/lhart group replies! I bet it's gonna be a good one http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif You all really know how to make my day

CuriousGeorge
Mar. 9, 2004, 07:11 PM
"I guess you think this is a dictatorship - how nice for you."

lhart, sage, cedarln, whoever you are, this IS a dictatorship! At least Erin is a benevolent despot! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

*****************************
I love stupid people; they're so entertaining!

Erin
Mar. 9, 2004, 10:23 PM
Ooh, I'm a rockstar and a benevolent despot! This is a good day! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Seriously -- and before anyone accuses me of being jealous, on a witch hunt, or whatever -- it irks me when people post and try to deliberately mislead people. No matter what side of the issue they're on.

Surely it's possible to discuss this issue like adults, without name-calling, mud-slinging, or imaginary friends?

MsHunter
Mar. 10, 2004, 04:11 AM
Sorry to take the other side, but, I for one think Jeff is an extremely wonderful person as well as a VERY competent UNBIASED judge who earnestly tries to "get it right". Regardless of his USEF standing, he is an EXCELLENT choice to judge ANY show, and a local circuit surely can benefit from his knowledge. If I had customers who showed at the CCHSA shows I'd be sure to attend one he is judging, as I know the students could walk away learning something on that particular day.
Whatever his suspension and fines are for have nothing to do with his vast amount of knowledge
that he is always willing to share.

For those that don't know Jeff or the Zone 2 area in particular, this particular trainer
is one of the few at the top who never forgets
his local horsemen. I can't say enough for friendliness, professionalism, turnout, riding ability is incredible and his horses are wonderful.

I can't speak of anything else I have NO first hand knowledge, and once again, I will state it is NOT my business.

Owner/Trainer of http://www.geocities.com/plumstedequestrianctr/

CuriousGeorge
Mar. 10, 2004, 05:15 AM
But Jane, the facts remain. If Jeff is such a wonderful rider and trainer, why was it necessary for him to use illegal substances as part of his horses' "programs"?

*****************************
I love stupid people; they're so entertaining!

Silk
Mar. 10, 2004, 06:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Regardless of his USEF standing, he is an EXCELLENT choice to judge ANY show, and a local circuit surely can benefit from his knowledge. /<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is he judging or is he bringing students to show? It sounded like the latter, at one point in the thread. I would have objections to him bringing students to a local circuit. Not as much for the suspension issue (that is another topic) but because his horses so drastically outmove and outjump anything local. I would be pretty pissed if my 5000 horse had to show against a class full of Jeff's very fancy hunters.

I choose the local, unrateds because my low-cost, all-around everything horse can be competitive there, but not so much on the A circuit. Even if I find all 8 fences nicely, there will be six others who jump tighter, rounder, nicer. Its the jump=dollar syndrome. I am not complaining about it; its just a fact. Let him stay in his venuses; leave us lower-level riders to ours, please,

**Here is the Uber-Pony 1:** http://www.equinesitegallery.com/VBG/LgSmokeyHead.jpg

shade
Mar. 10, 2004, 06:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CuriousGeorge:
But Jane, the facts remain. If Jeff is such a wonderful rider and trainer, why was it necessary for him to use illegal substances as part of his horses' "programs"?
Here here...why does no one want to address that fact??? I asked it previously and never got an answer from the pro-jeff people.
*****************************
I love stupid people; they're so entertaining!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

shade
Mar. 10, 2004, 06:52 AM
Oops sorry guys new to the quote thing..I meant to quote curious george's statement as to why he felt it necessary to use illegal substances if he is such a good trainer..

Those are my feelings exactly on ALL of the suspended people..

Rosie
Mar. 10, 2004, 07:03 AM
Well, I don't know this trainer at all and he may be the greatest judge/trainer in the world and a nice guy also BUT - if he is suspended he should not be judging shows local or otherwise.

I'm not suggesting that if seen on the street people spit on him - everyone is capable of making bad decisions now and then, but he should serve his suspension like the solid upstanding person everyone is saying he is.
It sounds as though he has been a great role model for young riders up until now - (I AM NOT ADVOCATING DRUGGING, REPEAT.... I AM NOT ADVOCATING DRUGGING) and the best way to show them that he made a bad mistake is to gracefully serve his suspension and to make sure that he doesn't ever repeat the offense.

And it DOES matter to me what other people do. I show, my daughter shows - I don't want to show against people who break the rules. I don't want our sport to close it's eyes to abuse of our wonderful horses.....and I don't want my daughter to think that it is ok to break the rules if you don't agree with them or if you think it will help you win.
Clearly there is a problem that the USEF needed to address and thankfully they are now stepping up and taking action.

Giddy-up
Mar. 10, 2004, 07:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:
My, the pro-Jeff clan sure is a close-knit bunch! Why, sage, cedarln and LHART are so close that they are all apparently posting from the same computer in Pennsylvania!

IP addresses are a wonderful thing... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Erin = 1 point
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif That is classic!

"...but now the gloves are coming off and it's going to get ghetto." Robby Johnson

nelson
Mar. 10, 2004, 08:38 AM
Originally posted by Erin:
My, the pro-Jeff clan sure is a close-knit bunch! Why, sage, cedarln and LHART are so close that they are all apparently posting from the same computer in Pennsylvania!

IP addresses are a wonderful thing...

************************************************

Pretty interesting development. I bet "they" (to the extent that "they" are even more than one person!) will get really quiet now. Maybe "they" should register (yet again) with the screen name "One-Post Wonder". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

playing cards
Mar. 10, 2004, 08:56 AM
Crap...the temptation is just too great to not give the obvious answer to Curious George et. al's query http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

I'm from Illinois, so not part of the pro-Jeff clan. I've never met him. BUT, surely, we have all come across horses that we don't ride/train well. Not everyone gets along with every single horse! And if you all do, well! woe to the rest of us.

In work and life we are judged by the aggregate of our work. Surely in your professional lives you win some and you lose some. I AM IN NO WAY advaocating that the answer to that solution is drugging the horse, so don't even go there. But it is also ridculous to say that being a great trainer is impossible unless you can train every animal that comes your way.

So Jeff didn't get along with two that we know of. And don't say because he drugged two every horse in his care is doped, because we all know that's a weak argument. But a few out of at least several thousand horses is a pretty good stat in the real world! Even GM says you should ride and train the horses that suit your style - even he doesn't expect that a trainer should be able to train every horse in order to be considered great!

Erin
Mar. 10, 2004, 09:09 AM
playing cards, that's a really good point.

I have a close friend who is a dressage trainer. She is young and has only been training people and horses full-time for 5 years or so. She knows that people form an opinion of her and her skills every time they see her ride, and she worries a great deal about putting forth the "right" image. And I mean this in a good way... she wants to appear competent, businesslike, professional, and talented. So she doesn't go out and show horses when she's not sure they're ready, because she doesn't want to see her name and a string of scores in the 50s up on the scoreboard.

When you look back at the insurance fraud cases, and the Lindemann/Charisma case in particular (since that's the one I'm most familiar with), the primary motive wasn't money, but embarrassment. Charisma was very successful with other riders; not so with GL. It seems that rather than admit defeat and sell the horse on to someone else, GL had it killed. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I'm sure the pressure to drug comes from some of the same motives. (And I'm speaking in general, not in reference to any one person.) And some of the comments here just prove how intense the pressure to perform must be... someone "can't ride" or "can't train" if they resort to drugs.

I'm not excusing drugging by any means. But I imagine sometimes it seems to be an easier way out than simply saying, "I'm not sure I can fix this."

On the other hand, many times it's just a quicker way of fixing something that a professional truly COULD fix... but I do think that playing cards brings up another scenario that's interesting to consider.

CuriousGeorge
Mar. 10, 2004, 09:12 AM
Playing Cards, I knew the answer when I posed the question. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I wanted to make Jane think about it a little bit more though.

And I agree with your post, so maybe my original question should have been more about moral fiber and character than about training ability.

Let's face it, not all horses make up in the same, pre-established time span. And when you have clients expecting results, I imagine it's tempting to take the "better living through modern chemistry" route to ribbons. I'm not advocating it, but it's another answer to my original question.

But if a horse doesn't fit your riding or training style, the admirable, honest thing to do is sell it in the hopes that it will find a program that works for it. Erin is right that ego and embarrassment seem to be a big piece of the puzzle here.

*****************************
I love stupid people; they're so entertaining!

whalo
Mar. 10, 2004, 09:12 AM
POSTED BY CURIOUSGEORGE : But Jane, the facts remain. If Jeff is such a wonderful rider and trainer, why was it necessary for him to use illegal substances as part of his horses' "programs"?

*****************************
I love stupid people; they're so entertaining!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wow your post kind of makes me think of my 8 year old sister!!! Hey if your so good at such and such why do you do this? huh huh huh??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Oh, and just FYI you CuriousGeorge entertain me often.

MsHunter
Mar. 10, 2004, 09:13 AM
Curious George, I really have no answer to your question. I do not know what he did or did not do or why. I can only state my first hand individual experiences. Those are questions only Jeff himself can answer to you, not anyone else. I'd never ask anyone a question like that either. But, that is just me.

Owner/Trainer of http://www.geocities.com/plumstedequestrianctr/

shade
Mar. 10, 2004, 09:24 AM
I wholeheartedly agree not every trainer can train every horse, but if you can't train it drug it?? And I'm not saying he did this but looking at it from the outside in that is what it looks like. I'm sure he had his reasons but the bottom line is he cheated and got caught.

nelson
Mar. 10, 2004, 09:24 AM
playing cards - I see your point exactly.

I definitely understand that not every rider/trainer has a rapport with every horse. I think the point most people on this thread are trying to make is that, if you end up with a horse that isn't working out, the answer isn't drugging, if you are ethical. To me, the definition of a good trainer includes not only great riding and teaching ability, but integrity and honesty as well.

JMHO

Uberraschung
Mar. 10, 2004, 09:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Let's face it, not all horses make up in the same, pre-established time span. And when you have clients expecting results, I imagine it's tempting to take the "better living through modern chemistry" route to ribbons. I'm not advocating it, but it's another answer to my original question.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ding ding ding! Correct answer. I know I sure wouldn't want to disappoint or lose clients that were paying more on board, training, & showing in a month than many people make in a year. I understand where things like this come from and how someone could be driven to drug a horse. That doesn't make it right, but I do think it is forgivable.

I've never met Jeff, but he seems like a nice guy and a good trainer. I wouldn't hesitate to take a lesson from him.

equit8not
Mar. 10, 2004, 09:54 AM
that this forum is outting people who arent against
Jeff. Suggesting posters are all one in the same? Shame on you Erin. Again , all in the interest of honesty? Nelson,ASh (good buddies ) and bashers united, you seem resigned to discrediting people pro Jeff or anti your tactics. If we are outting who the posters are , it could get interesting. erin, if your backround is journalism, I find it curious that you would identify a source . How unprofessional. This forum is so pathetic. As for when posts were made you bashers have no idea how long the posters have viewed the forum (years). Alot of new posters felt compelled to respond to you . Im done. Please feel free to "discuss" me or what I wrote. I still am disgusted by this and felt compelled to respond. PS I never condoned drugging. Read the posts. I cant believe the venom and I see Erin, Ash and Nelson adding fuel. Youve done atleast one trainer a favor. They say, you should worry when they stop talking about you. Talk on.....

Erin
Mar. 10, 2004, 09:59 AM
equit8not, I didn't identify anyone. No names.

All I did was point out that it appeared one person was attempting to portray him/herself as three different people. If you suspect anyone else on this thread is doing the same, feel free to let me know, and I'll look up their IPs too. But it's a sure sign something's afoot when a new poster signs up and chimes in on one of these threads. I don't see any of the "bashers," as you call them, with registration dates of yesterday. Do you?

If someone wants to use a second screen name to say something without fear of repurcussions in real life, that's fine by me. But most of the time, people make it obvious that that's what they're doing. Curious George is one example.

But if you can't argue for your side convincingly, and have to "create" more people to agree with you, then I feel that's dishonest and deserves to be revealed.

Ash
Mar. 10, 2004, 10:33 AM
EXCUSE ME EQUIT8NOT I never made this thread about Jeff or his suspension! I wanted to discuss what the CCHSA did. I NEVER mentioned names and NEVER offered and opinion as to why he did what he did. If you read my posts I say very positive things about Jeff. So do not blame me that this thread has turned into a drugging debate. Why is it so hard for you to accept that I never attacked Jeff or his actions? The long and short of it is he broke the rules and got caught. I never had anything to say about it other then that.

So stop trying to make a public lynching where there isn't one. (at least not by me)

Who cares if I am "good buddies" with Nelson? At least we are not trying to pass ourselves off as three different people. People know who we are and we are not ashamed to share our opinions.

P.S. Your 'stream of consciousness' type writing style (although I will assume that is not what you are going for) is very hard to follow. Try putting some coherent thoughts together and you might be able to get your point across better. Proper punctuation never hurts either.

************************************************** **********
Every great man has his disciples, and it is always Judas who writes the biography.
--Oscar Wilde

nelson
Mar. 10, 2004, 10:45 AM
Ditto Ash - thank you. I was just about to post the same thing.

I feel like I am repeating myseLf, but since some people can't get it through their heads, it bears repeating. THE POINT IN MY POSTING ON THIS THREAD WAS TO QUESTION THE PROPRIETY OF THE SHOW MANAGERS ON A LOCAL SHOW CIRCUIT CHANGING THEIRS RULES TO ALLOW A SUSPENDED INDIVIDUAL TO PARTICIPATE.

In all my time posting on this BB, I have never made a secret of my identity. I have posted the name of my late horse, the name of my trainer and the name of my barn. I don't have to conceal my identity, because I am not ashamed of my opinions.

equit8not - please, please reread the thread and try to comprehend the intended scope of discussion.

Flash44
Mar. 10, 2004, 10:50 AM
It's very black and white to me. There is no such thing as just cheating a little bit. You either decide to cheat, or you decide not to cheat.

And I don't buy the "tremendous pressure" excuse. EVERYONE has to make a living, whether they are training horses, appraising real estate, managing a mutual fund, doing the books for a big giant corporation, or a multitude of other occupations. Don't you think accountants are feeling the pressure to get big refunds for their clients right about now? Thanks, but no thanks. I'll do business honestly, and expect those I deal with to do the same. Maybe I won't be rich and famous, but I won't be looking over my shoulder wondering if it will catch up to me either.

Quinn
Mar. 10, 2004, 11:13 AM
Flash44, I think I have agreed with you 100% on one other occasion. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif But when I agree, I mean I AGREE. Well said. Each and every one of us is under some type of pressure or another. Once you lose your "ethics/morals" you lose a huge piece of who you are. Again to agree with Ms. Flash, there is no such thing as cheating a little. Once you start down that slippery slope it just gets easier and easier to "stretch" the rules.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

"If you are going through hell, keep going." ~Churchill~

mbp
Mar. 10, 2004, 11:17 AM
Really, there are a lot more than just one or two camps it seems, and a lot of people fall in several camps at the same time.

1. Those who think that if someone is a good horseman, they should be able to judge, teach, give lessons, etc. without regard to whether or not they broke the rules (once, twice, many times, consistently, little breaks (a smidge of Ace) big breaks (insurance fraud and killing horses) or whatever. A "good horseman" particularly if they think they are also "good guy" gets a bye even if they break the rules.

2. Those who think that if someone is caught breaking the rules, their punishment should be only the exact letter of any USEF action against them and they should not be "judged" or "punished" except by the exact letter of the USEF action. So unrecognized shows, teaching off grounds, etc. are fine and fair game bc they were not expressly prohibited.

3. Those who are friends with someone and will stand behind them, no matter what they did, because they are a friend. They will stand behind them whether they do it once, twice - whether they do it for gain, for glory, whatever - it's a friend.

4. Those who think that the person caught "didn't do it" because of tampering, conspiracy or some barn foul up that was "unbeknownst" to them, and so they shouldn't be punished and/or despite the findings of the USEF committee people shouldn't talk about them as if they were guilty bc gosh darn it, those in the know, know - they "didn't do it".

5.Those who think everyone does it or does some other bad things and it should just be fine and ok to drug and it is better than the alternatives, and they just flat out disagree with the rules and policies (this SEEMS to be limited to the drugging situations - not so much the horse killing and insurance fraud, although even there it seems to be a little bit of a "everyone does bad stuff" approach in some places)

6. Those who think that the person in question really is a great guy, great horseman, etc. but believe that if they are on suspensions from USEF, it is a very bad idea for organizations and individuals to promote them, have them judge, teach right off grounds, etc. during the period of their USEF suspension, but would be ok those things AFTER the suspension time was served. Basically, you shouldn't benefit from the industry at the same time you are supposed to be being punished for breaking the rules.

7. THose who think the person in question really shouldn't participate in the industry at all after the "big" infractions, like the insurance fraud/horse killing, and think that during the smaller infractions, whether they "did" them or not, if they were found guilty after hearing they should pony up and not try to find ways like unrecognized shows and off grounds coaching while looking over the fence, etc. to basically tap dance around the punishment.

8. Thos who think that the person under suspension is only responsible for complying with the exact terms of their suspension, but who feel that OTHERS (like show management and riders) are showing very bad judgement and setting bad examples by seeking out the suspended individual for lesson, judging, etc.

Then there' equit8not who I can't understand for the life of me, but who seems to think cedrln et al are somehow Erin's journalistic sources (?????huh????) and that this forum is pathetic - but he/she has watched it for years and keeps coming back????? I dunno - I can't really follow it.


Anyway - an awful lot of different takes - I know I have left some out. There are just a lot of different feelings on the subject, not any single Pro/Con camp. And it doesn't really seem to be about any one person as much as the many different situations that are facing the industry and individuals.

Erin
Mar. 10, 2004, 11:22 AM
Good post, mbp. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

And lauriep, thanks for responding to my original question. I do understand your point. I'm not all that familiar with the suspension process, but I assume it comes down to the decision of some USEF committee or another, and presumably the people on the committee have been around for a long time and will have all of the facts laid out for them to make a decision.

Whoops, laurie's response was on the other thread. Nevermind... I'm getting confused! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Ash
Mar. 10, 2004, 11:37 AM
Good post mbp! Thanks for typing all that out.

I guess I am a combination of 6,7 and 8.

I understand that there is tremendous pressure on trainers to produce results. That does not excuse breaking the rules although I can see it could be very tempting.

I am reminded by a piece of advice my boss once gave me. Life is 10% what happens and 90% of how we react to it. It is how we choose to react that defines us an individuals.

************************************************** **********
Every great man has his disciples, and it is always Judas who writes the biography.
--Oscar Wilde

nelson
Mar. 10, 2004, 12:46 PM
mbp - I thought your post was excellent and thorough - thank you for laying it all out like that!

I think if I had to pick one group (as defined in your post) into which I fall, I would pick #6.

Thanks again!

Flash44
Mar. 10, 2004, 12:50 PM
One of the qualities that makes a good horseperson a good horseperson is flexibility, or knowing when a program is not quite getting the desired results and tweaking the program to fit that individual horse. And what would make that good horseperson great is accepting that a quirk of a talented horse may prevent it from being consistent at the top, and having respect for that horse's ability and individuality nonetheless.

Ghazzu
Mar. 10, 2004, 02:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jake's Dad:
why would a trainer be tested seven times out
of nine shows. Doesn't that sound strange.
Random testing ?????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One season when I was drug testing at distance rides, I drew the same rider/horse's number out of a hat at 3 rides.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

poltroon
Mar. 10, 2004, 03:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by playing cards:
I'm from Illinois, so not part of the pro-Jeff clan. I've never met him. BUT, surely, we have all come across horses that we don't ride/train well. Not everyone gets along with every single horse! And if you all do, well! woe to the rest of us.

In work and life we are judged by the aggregate of our work. Surely in your professional lives you win some and you lose some. I AM IN NO WAY advaocating that the answer to that solution is drugging the horse, so don't even go there. But it is also ridculous to say that being a great trainer is impossible unless you can train every animal that comes your way.

So Jeff didn't get along with two that we know of. And don't say because he drugged two every horse in his care is doped, because we all know that's a weak argument. But a few out of at least several thousand horses is a pretty good stat in the real world! Even GM says you should ride and train the horses that suit your style - even he doesn't expect that a trainer should be able to train every horse in order to be considered great!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Someone I respect says that's why you need a back pasture if you're going to be a professional - for all those horses that don't work out. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif The larger and further away from the road, the better! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Bumpkin
Mar. 12, 2004, 07:09 AM
Trainers should just be honest with their clients and themselves.
Admit when the horse is not right for you and move on, hopefully finding another trainer who does fit the horse, without wrecking it or the owner.
JMHO of course.

"Remember: You're A Customer In A Service Industry."
"Proud Member Of The I Love Dublin, Starman Babies,and SunnieFlax Cliques"

Peggy
Mar. 12, 2004, 10:28 AM
The suspensions are mentioned in today's COTH -- both In The Country and the Chronicle Commentary.

(no time to link--have to go back to class--but you can find them via the main Chronicle page linked from the top of this BB page)

nelson
Mar. 12, 2004, 10:29 AM
I was wondering if/when the COTH would report about them. Thanks for the info.