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Xpression
Jul. 24, 2011, 08:23 PM
When practicing half pass, my horse tends to feel as if he is not bending around my inside leg sufficiently, and 'going' into my outside rein properly. I feel as if I am creating the bend through my inside rein and both legs (inside leg is at the girth, outside leg supports the haunch) with not enough suppleness in the outside rein. I am sitting on the seat bone in the direction of travel.
Therefore, my horse is tense in the topline during the half pass... Trot half passes are good, are great when he is supple. I mostly experience this tension through the topline in the canter half pass.

Does anyone have any recommendations for exercises to help me?

dotneko
Jul. 24, 2011, 08:46 PM
I use half pass - leg yield - half pass to really
speak to him about the inside leg.
Both in trot and canter.

You can also do half pass to shoulder in to half pass
as sort of a stair-step pattern

lovey1121
Jul. 24, 2011, 09:04 PM
I use half pass - leg yield - half pass to really
speak to him about the inside leg.
Both in trot and canter.

You can also do half pass to shoulder in to half pass
as sort of a stair-step pattern

This. dotneko beat me to it. Remember to keep the rhythm!

Pony Fixer
Jul. 24, 2011, 09:05 PM
I use half pass - leg yield - half pass to really
speak to him about the inside leg.
Both in trot and canter.

You can also do half pass to shoulder in to half pass
as sort of a stair-step pattern

I love both these exercises. In addition, in a clinic with Cesar Parra he had me do medium across the diagonal, then switch to half pass. Amazing how the forward fixes a multitude of sins...

goeslikestink
Jul. 24, 2011, 10:26 PM
look here page 12 on leg yielding which covers the half pass video attached
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=178116

Hampton Bay
Jul. 24, 2011, 10:52 PM
...I am sitting on the seat bone in the direction of travel. ...

Try putting your weight on the outside seat bone. Look at pictures of upper level riders riding HP. They are usually sitting more to the outside than the inside.

DutchDressageQueen
Jul. 24, 2011, 10:58 PM
do half pass to shoulder in to half pass
as sort of a stair-step pattern

THIS.

J-Lu
Jul. 25, 2011, 01:03 AM
If your horse is truly ready for half-pass in terms of strength and training, I'd suggest doing half-pass to shoulder in to half-pass as described above. I'd also suggest doing shoulder-in on the rail to haunches in to shoulder in, both in the true and counter direction. You shoudl be able to do a counter-shoulder-in, to haunches out, to counter-shoulder in on the rail and on the first-track. I think doing this on the rail is a true test of your straightness, because if your horse isn't straight he'll drift into the rail and he'll get upset. I'd also suggest suppling to the counter-bend (I.e. shoulder-in to renvers back to shoulder-in - that's a great way to teach your horse to move into different outside reins). You can also do these excercises across the diagonal. Your horse will have to really listen (and you will have to really deliver good aids) to pull this off. If you two can do this, the half-passes as presented in the tests will be alot easier because they are more straightforward.

Good luck!

dotneko
Jul. 25, 2011, 06:24 AM
Try putting your weight on the outside seat bone. Look at pictures of upper level riders riding HP. They are usually sitting more to the outside than the inside.
Jul. 25, 2011 01:26 AM


No, weight always and evermore to the bending leg in every
movement.

raff
Jul. 25, 2011, 06:34 AM
If you can find S Peters Palm Beach freestyle ride, there was a camera showing his trot half pass from behind.I was amazed at his position, how 'down' his outside seatbone was,and how forward his outside shoulder!
(HP right is a troublesome movement for me, so it really struck me,as I tend to shorten my left side.)

SaddleFitterVA
Jul. 25, 2011, 08:02 AM
No, weight always and evermore to the bending leg in every
movement.

whew! I just had a lesson yesterday where the lightbulb moment was realizing how crooked I was while I "felt" straight. I essentially was over-weighting the outside and leaning over that way a smidge. Correcting it and suddenly the haunches in and half pass were more forward, straighter and easier.

The mirror confirmed my straight status while I felt like I was "leaning" to the inside.

Hampton Bay
Jul. 25, 2011, 08:24 AM
No, weight always and evermore to the bending leg in every
movement.

Not if you want anything even remotely like a HP on my mare. If you weight the inside, all you get is a pissed off horse. I've had BNTs tell me to weight the outside in HP to free up the inside to go sideways.

SaddleFitterVA
Jul. 25, 2011, 08:35 AM
Not if you want anything even remotely like a HP on my mare. If you weight the inside, all you get is a pissed off horse. I've had BNTs tell me to weight the outside in HP to free up the inside to go sideways.

this is where internet instruction fails. When a good instructor is teaching you sees something, they give you the instruction to fix it, at that moment in time. Perhaps you were leaning in too far and blocking the inside, and the correct instruction was "weight the outside".

I absolutely have gotten opposite instructions over the years, and invariably, the instruction I got at the time worked to fix whatever we were working on. Then, riding alone 95% of the time, my propioception is not the same as reality, so I go too far the other way, and get fixed again, or the horse's balance was off at first and gets better.

What is cool is that once I find that correct place and learn to replicate it, it works on all the horses I ride (currently 3 of them).

dotneko
Jul. 25, 2011, 09:20 AM
Even though your weight is always to the bending (bearing)
leg - remember the horse wants to move in balance and will
follow your weight, your leg aids are independent of your
weighted seat. In the half pass right for example, when the
right hind is in its grounded phase, your right leg is supporting while your left leg is asking the left hind to move sideways.
When the right hind is in its airborn phase, your right leg is slightly 'opening' to allow the right hind to swing sidewards while at the same time activating the right hind to push forwards.
If you weight the outside in the half pass, you lose engagement. It may work as a bandaid, but not for long term training.
Your outside seatbone is back, your outside leg is 'long'
your hips mirror the horse's hips and your shoulders mirror
his shoulders.
This is so much more difficult to write than ride :lol:

Valentina_32926
Jul. 25, 2011, 11:43 AM
One of the things that has helped me most in HP is to use my inside HIP - push forward with inside hip, that makes the inside leg "firmer" so that when you apply outside leg and rein horse must bend around inside leg.

I use that same hip position in SI to get and keep the bend (inside leg to outside rein). :D

dotneko
Jul. 25, 2011, 12:10 PM
I teach my students that they use the same basic
leg positioning for all lateral work.
If you are going right for example, your legs are in basic
'canter right' positioning. Half pass in trot and canter, shoulder in, travers, half pirouette in walk and canter, full pirouette in canter, canter depart all require the same relative positioning. The difference is the angle and degree of pressure from the legs (well, and obviously the rein aids). But if I was looking at
them from above, I would not be able to tell the movement
from their bodies.

cyndi
Jul. 25, 2011, 01:50 PM
One of the things that has helped me most in HP is to use my inside HIP - push forward with inside hip, that makes the inside leg "firmer" so that when you apply outside leg and rein horse must bend around inside leg.

I use that same hip position in SI to get and keep the bend (inside leg to outside rein). :D

THIS. It also works for canter piros!

Xpression
Jul. 25, 2011, 02:39 PM
Thanks for the exercise suggestions, I have been doing Half Pass-Leg Yield-Half Pass but have not done Half Pass-Shoulder In-Half Pass for a very long time.. forgot about it!

angel
Jul. 25, 2011, 03:53 PM
Yes, sit on your outside seatbone, not your inside one. Don't think about bending the horse so much.

dotneko
Jul. 25, 2011, 04:24 PM
Question for the 'weight on the outside seatbone'
camp - where is your weight in SI and HI?
Since half pass is HI on the diagonal, then I assume
you will say weight on the outside in them also?

mjhco
Jul. 25, 2011, 05:07 PM
Question for the 'weight on the outside seatbone'
camp - where is your weight in SI and HI?
Since half pass is HI on the diagonal, then I assume
you will say weight on the outside in them also?

I am curious as well.

Which seat bone do you weight for the canter pirouettes?

For the tempis?

raff
Jul. 25, 2011, 07:32 PM
Canter is easy, you sit from one to the other,trot is where the question really arises.

angel
Jul. 25, 2011, 09:38 PM
Any canter movement, including the canter pirouette is weighted on the outside. (Many riders are not weight it correctly, which is why so many pirouettes travel and slow and all sorts of other faults) Haunches-in is weighted on the outside. Half-pass is weighted on the outside, and is NOT just haunches-in done on the diagonal. If it were, you'd be crossing the horse's front legs for the travers. With haunches in, the horse's forequarters are to be kept straight as if on a straight line, and this means a slight shoulder-fore position. For half-pass, you want the same degree of bending that you have for shoulder-in. The difference between the two movements is that for the shoulder-in you weight the inside while for half-pass you weight the outside. That is the only difference there should be, and the entwicken exercise is to demonstrate that you can move the horse by changing your weight aids...that the horse understands that if the weighting of a hind leg changes, the direction of movement (straight or sideways) changes. Tempis are the results of the rider shifting the weighting of the seatbone on every stride with the horse so well attuned (hopefully) that the weight change effects a flying change.

In all of these, the rider must understand how the degree of his/her weight aids will influence a horse who has a degree of crookedness. The weight aids cannot be applied equally to each side of the horse with the same degree of success because of these crookedness issues. In the ideal world, this would be the case, and in the real world, this is for what you work, knowing all along the limitations under which you as well as your horse labor.

dotneko
Jul. 25, 2011, 10:45 PM
From "Advanced Techniques of Dressage" an Official Instruction Handbook of the German National Federation:

Half Pass - Aids -

"The aids for the half pass are the same as in travers and renvers. The rider prepares the horse via half-halts. Then:

*more weight is placed on the inside seat bone (in canter there is already more weight on this seat bone)"

Shoulder-in Aids-

" the rider uses half-halts to begin the exercise, then:

* more weight is placed on the inside seat bone"

Travers - Aids -

" the rider prepares the horse by the use of half halts, then:

* more weight is placed on the inside seat bone*

Canter pirouettes - Aids-

" * more weight is placed on the inside seat bone"

and additionally from the USDF Dressage Manual
excerpted from the British Horse Society Manual of Equitation
" The half-pass.....
* puts more weight to the inside stirrup"

J-Lu
Jul. 25, 2011, 11:13 PM
Wellllllll, for what it's worth, I disagree with Angel and the poster who said SP weights the outside seatbone in lateral work. Beyond being a very good rider/trainer, SP is also a great test rider and can give an individual horse a great ride in a test in order to stay on top of any imbalance that might come up. He doesn't teach half-pass this way.

The inside hip/seat leads in the half-pass, and in travers/renvers. The inside hip/seat also drives during SI. The terms "lead" and "drive" have to do with the direction of travel, not pushing or pulling. If you are sitting on the outside seatbone, you're asking the horse to bend against your seat and you're being left behind in the movement. As a rule (not a correction).

Just my 2cents.

mjhco
Jul. 25, 2011, 11:44 PM
Any canter movement, including the canter pirouette is weighted on the outside. (Many riders are not weight it correctly, which is why so many pirouettes travel and slow and all sorts of other faults) Haunches-in is weighted on the outside. Half-pass is weighted on the outside, and is NOT just haunches-in done on the diagonal. If it were, you'd be crossing the horse's front legs for the travers. With haunches in, the horse's forequarters are to be kept straight as if on a straight line, and this means a slight shoulder-fore position. For half-pass, you want the same degree of bending that you have for shoulder-in. The difference between the two movements is that for the shoulder-in you weight the inside while for half-pass you weight the outside. That is the only difference there should be, and the entwicken exercise is to demonstrate that you can move the horse by changing your weight aids...that the horse understands that if the weighting of a hind leg changes, the direction of movement (straight or sideways) changes. Tempis are the results of the rider shifting the weighting of the seatbone on every stride with the horse so well attuned (hopefully) that the weight change effects a flying change.

In all of these, the rider must understand how the degree of his/her weight aids will influence a horse who has a degree of crookedness. The weight aids cannot be applied equally to each side of the horse with the same degree of success because of these crookedness issues. In the ideal world, this would be the case, and in the real world, this is for what you work, knowing all along the limitations under which you as well as your horse labor.

I am curious. What levels have you competed in?

Just wondering.

Pony Fixer
Jul. 26, 2011, 12:22 AM
Angel does pretty much everything opposite to what I've been taught (and do).
:)
It's easy to get "caught" on the outside seat bone/stirrup in HP, but in order to achieve the bend you need those inside aids. The outside leg is just back to ask for the over, but the key to the movement is the bend. JMHO. I can "force" my horse over with my outside leg and put my weight there, but then you lose the forward and the bend. To me, the forward and the bend make the movement, with the "over" being secondary. (I know I just said the same thing twice--I'm tired!)

And, I've ridden to 4th and taken lessons with Steffen Peters, in case that matters.

Xpression
Jul. 26, 2011, 01:29 AM
Any canter movement, including the canter pirouette is weighted on the outside. (Many riders are not weight it correctly, which is why so many pirouettes travel and slow and all sorts of other faults) Haunches-in is weighted on the outside. Half-pass is weighted on the outside, and is NOT just haunches-in done on the diagonal. If it were, you'd be crossing the horse's front legs for the travers. With haunches in, the horse's forequarters are to be kept straight as if on a straight line, and this means a slight shoulder-fore position. For half-pass, you want the same degree of bending that you have for shoulder-in. The difference between the two movements is that for the shoulder-in you weight the inside while for half-pass you weight the outside. That is the only difference there should be, and the entwicken exercise is to demonstrate that you can move the horse by changing your weight aids...that the horse understands that if the weighting of a hind leg changes, the direction of movement (straight or sideways) changes. Tempis are the results of the rider shifting the weighting of the seatbone on every stride with the horse so well attuned (hopefully) that the weight change effects a flying change.

In all of these, the rider must understand how the degree of his/her weight aids will influence a horse who has a degree of crookedness. The weight aids cannot be applied equally to each side of the horse with the same degree of success because of these crookedness issues. In the ideal world, this would be the case, and in the real world, this is for what you work, knowing all along the limitations under which you as well as your horse labor.

From Britta Schoffman's "Dressage School" - 'A half-pass looks like a travers - the only difference is that the horse doesn't move along a track but away from it at an angle'

And in the "Most Commong Mistakes: Rider" she says - '[when rider] shifts her weight incorrectly (sits to the outside)'

What you said above is opposite to what I have been taught. My trainer and I worked on endless half pass-leg yield-half pass transitions to make me aware of my seat bones and the correct positioning of them during these movements.

But back to my original question... I think I have discovered what my problem is! In "Dressage School" she says:

'Allow your inside rein to maintain this flexion, yielding the outside rein slightly so the outside of the horse's neck and trunk muscles can stretch. As soon as the horse has taken on the appropriate flexion, your inside hand must become soft again (give the rein forward.), so as not to block the forward-striding motion of the corresponding shoulder and hind leg.'

I think I choke him with the inside rein in order to attain the proper flexion. I need to allow him to move more forward once the bend has been established... Food for thought!

raff
Jul. 26, 2011, 06:11 AM
Indeed.
Another issue is that one can sit mostly on the outside seatbone, but still have the weight to the inside.
As a seatbone goes back (towards the cantle) it becomes more weighted,and the long inside leg doesn't actually weight the inside seatbone as much as it weights the stirrup.So,the seatbone can be light, but the weight still to the inside?

AlterBy
Jul. 26, 2011, 11:50 AM
@Angel: I think you didn't check back the last thread about Hi and half pass?
A half pass IS a HI on the diagonal, as stated in the FEi dressage rule book.

As for where to put the weight? As even as possible. Its been said to be in the direction of travel or in the bending. What works for each rider and horse! And since there is many school of thinking, the FEi doesn't care where you put your weight as long as the movement is done correctly!
But what is taught is usually the weight a bit inside the bend.

Velvet
Jul. 26, 2011, 11:56 AM
@Angel: I think you didn't check back the last thread about Hi and half pass?
A half pass IS a HI on the diagonal, as stated in the FEi dressage rule book.



Yep, I don't think Angel ever did check back in. All the information from successful upper level trainers/riders is that you put weight evenly in the saddle, and if there's any additional weight from POSITIONING of the rider (often by moving just their head to look in the direction of travel) it is on the inside.

Angel just hasn't given us any real proof. Angel keeps saying that you can see this in top riders. I'm wondering if Angel has seen someone out of balance and thinks that's correct.

Horse's move under the rider's weight. If a person has a child on their shoulders (not that this is a perfect analogy since horses have four legs, but it fits for balance) and the child leans to one side, the person will want to stay under them and will move to rebalance the child to a more comfortable position.

To the OP, I wouldn't try weighting the outside. We had another link to a great article on the old HI topic.

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=312468

Forte
Jul. 26, 2011, 12:12 PM
The weight should be on the inside seatbone. SI, HI, HP, pirouette, even a simple circle, always on the inside seatbone.

Many great suggestions given on this thread. HP to SI to HP is a good exercise for reestablishing the bend and the connection from inside leg to outside rein.