Morgan Assoc. approves use of bands/turnbuckles UPDATE page 12

[hitchinmygetalong]

[links removed because the photos do not belong to the OP]


The Board of Directors of the Morgan Horse Association has approved the use of bands and turnbuckles for any horse other than a weanling or a yearling.

They now take the rules change proposal to the USEF.

This is a travesty.

The board has somehow been convinced that this is for the good of the horse. Are they joking? Yes, the bands and turnbuckles will help keep pads and shoes on. But the horse should not have so much padding and shoeing that it needs to be strapped on.

This is, pure and simple, the personal agenda of a small but influential (think: $$$$) group trying to rewrite the rules to fit THEIR needs. This is for THEIR good, certainly not the welfare of the horse.

Those of you familiar with USEF: Who can we contact at USEF in order to try and stop this rule change?

Back in the 60's the AMHA put limits on foot length, shoe weights, and banned the use of braids in order to separate the breed from the growing Saddlebred population. The trend is the reverse now, and soon the two breeds will be virtually the same to the unpracticed eye.

I love Morgans. I like Saddlebreds. Let's not get the two confused.

Help us stop this rule change.

Thank you.

[greysandbays]

If the rag-taggle reports I've heard from the AHA convention, the Arabian Association is headed down the same path.

I D I O T S, the whole blooming works of 'em.

If they want contests for creative farriery, then have farrier competions and leave the horses out of it.

[Ridgetop Ghost]

Hey, Hitch, pardon my ignorance for a sec, but what on Earth os that big V wedge looking thing in the front of the hoof? Does it cause pain? Is this the same kind of stuff the TWH big lick people do to get them to high-step? If so, I think it's AWFUL.

[Phaxxton]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

What is the point of all that stuff on the feet?!

[ChocoMare]

Originally posted by Phaxxton:
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

What is the point of all that stuff on the feet?!

To, cough/sputter/gasp, "enhance" their way of going. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

'Scuse me...but I enjoy seeing a Morgan, TWH, Saddlebred, MFT, RMH, etc. go the way God created them....au'natural!

Just look at those poor feet. Bent, under run heels (that's an understatement) et al. And then the owner wonders why they have hock and back problems. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

I boarded with a woman who had 2 TWH mares. Gorgeous, free-moving mares - barefoot, never been strapped to those instruments of torture and (Thank God!) never sored. They were a delight to see move. Even got a couple of blues in Western Flat Shod classes.

Used to board next to a TWH breeder/shower/trainer. All were strapped into those things...some worse (i.e., lifts that weighed 5 pounds and were 4 inches high). Kept stalled 24/7 to build heel. Oy vey http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

This thread will probably go sideways as those who work with these type of horses see nothing wrong with lifts, straps, chains, soring, etc. Let the games begin...

[Luvinfoofy]

Yeeeeouch!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

[hitchinmygetalong]

I'm bumping this in hopes of getting some feedback on how best to contact USEF to protest the passage of this rule change.

[coalforge]

The big wedge shaped thing is a toe clip. It's used to keep that mess of a shoe job from shifting back on the horse's foot. I agree that turning Morgans into Saddlbreds is a crime! And I love Saddlebreds too.

[Sue from Auckland]

Holy moly (some of) you yanks are crazy!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif There's about 2 inches of hoof and ?? inches of *what the heck is that - call that a shoe??* hanging off that horse that shouldn't be there. How could anyone impose that on any defenceless animal?

[CuriosoJorge]

The toe clip itself is not the issue. Toe clips can be used on any horse that tends to pull shoes, even hunters shod in aluminium.

[shakeytails]

Here we go again...

[Steve]

I personally believe it is a good move. If a horse takes a wrong step and rips of its shoe along with a lot of hoof, the horse could be out for the season. Not only will the use of bands help prevent that, it will also speed up the shows because of less thrown shoes. The BOD has had a lot of problems in the past and they are moving in the right direction. If you have attended the USEF Rule Forum's at the major shows they poll the people who attend them, and bands were something that was asked (at least last year) and the public wants bands.

But I do not think that a horse should have such a big shoe that it cannot carry it without a band.

Steve

[Aptor Hours]

I wish somebody would trim the fur around that coronet band and sand the feet up a bit...they look messy! Other than that they look fine to me. I am going to save my energy for horses that are truly abused and sadly http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gifthere are plenty of those http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif I don't know why trimming around the legs is such a pet peeve of mine http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[hitchinmygetalong]

Before this gets out of hand:

1. This is not a jab at any other breed or their shoeing/showing practices. Please be clear on this point.

2. Steve makes the point that I want to put across AS IT PERTAINS TO MORGANS (notice I did not point a finger at any other breed): If the shoe can't stay on without bands, it should not be on the horse.

I personally would love to see the heavy shoes etc. come off every horse, period. But that's not going to happen. Not. Going. To. Happen. What I want to see is that this NOT happen in the Morgan breed. I know in my heart of hearts this rule change is going to happen but I owe it to myself to do what I can to try and stop it.

So, I repeat. This topic concerns MORGAN HORSES. No other breed. That's an argument someone else can take on.

[Aptor Hours]

Why shouldn't a horse wear a band if needed? They can be a pain but so can a lot of things with horses.

If you need to contact USEF I think the website would be usef.org it should be fairly easy to contact them if you wish.

[hitchinmygetalong]

Originally posted by Aptor Hours:
Why shouldn't a horse wear a band if needed? They can be a pain but so can a lot of things with horses.

If you need to contact USEF I think the website would be usef.org it should be fairly easy to contact them if you wish.

The band becomes an issue when it is holding on a grossly overpadded/weighted shoe that has zero chance of staying on the foot without a band.

My apologies to the Saddlebred folks on the board. I don't want to turn this into a breed-bashing and I know it is a sensitive issue. I am watching this very closely and if things turn nasty I will close the thread.

This has me so upset I can't think straight. I've been around Morgans for a long long time and there are a lot of people out there (and they are usually too busy foaling out mares or working two jobs to help pay the feed bill to go to the shows) that are HORRIFIED by this. How can they make their feelings known?

I'm off to search the USEF website.

[mrd]

That's too bad. It's going down a controversial road. However, bands themselves are not evil. I have one horse that is light shod - no pads - but will pull his shoes off in turnout with his overreach. For this he gets bands on at home. The shoes are too expensive to be losing every night and the damage to a foot or leg could be great. They are not bands that are used to clamp the foot so tight that it is soring, and the bands come off before showing. Being a racking horse and SSH he *could* be shown in the bands if we wanted, but there is no reason. It is strictly to keep shoes on at home.

What stand does the USEF take on it now?

[hitchinmygetalong]

Originally posted by mrd:
What stand does the USEF take on it now?

USEF MO103 - Shoeing Regulations (Morgans)
1. Except for weanlings and yearlings which must be shown barefoot, horses may be shod or barefoot. If shod, shoes must be without turnbuckles, or bands, rocker bars or Memphis bars. Bars must not extend below the bottom plane of the shoe. Weight attached to the exterior of the hoof is prohibited. Borium or standard screw-in caulks are allowed.

[Aptor Hours]

Originally posted by mrd:
That's too bad. It's going down a controversial road. However, bands themselves are not evil. I have one horse that is light shod - no pads - but will pull his shoes off in turnout with his overreach. For this he gets bands on at home. The shoes are too expensive to be losing every night and the damage to a foot or leg could be great. They are not bands that are used to clamp the foot so tight that it is soring, and the bands come off before showing. Being a racking horse and SSH he *could* be shown in the bands if we wanted, but there is no reason. It is strictly to keep shoes on at home.

What stand does the USEF take on it now?

FYI those bands are not for soring they are just like you stated to help prevent the loss of a shoe. That is all.

[KrazyTBMare]

My trainer has to use the buckles on her Trak to keep his shoes on. He has the crappiest feet in the world and rips his shoes off left and right. He doesnt have all those pads and everything on there, but the buckles have been a God send to keep his shoes on and him sound.

[Ghazzu]

The Board of Directors of the Morgan Horse Association has approved the use of bands and turnbuckles for any horse other than a weanling or a yearling.

Bummer.
They're such nice little horses when they're not artificially messed with.
If someone wants a Saddlebred, why don't they just get a Saddlebred?

[mrs.smith]

I got out of Morgans after the whole Rhythem Nation debacle. If it takes something other than a Morgan to win at the World's, then something is sadly wrong. Saddlebreds and Hackneys have been bred into the breed on the sly for years, with only a handful getting caught. If I ever owned another Morgan, it would be Lippitt bred.

Unfortunately, Park horses command the most $$$$, hence the new weighted shoes.

This is why I bought a haflinger, but guess what? The powers that be are mucking that breed up too! If I wanted a taller, long backed Arab, I would have bought one! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

[TheOrangeOne]

I don't see a problem with bands per se, but I do see a problem with the shoes! God... Then again this has been discussed ad nauseum....

[mrd]

Originally posted by Aptor Hours:

FYI those bands are not for soring they are just like you stated to help prevent the loss of a shoe. That is all.

No, I agree, I guess that was what I was trying to say - the bands are not evil. Well, unless you are pressure banding. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

What does worry me is that allowing the bands will open the door for the use of bigger packages on their feet. I'm not at all familiar with AMHA rules, but I suppose there are shoe sizes and measurements in their rule books, right? Is everyone trying to max out on shoe/package size? Do Morgans have the "commissioned circuit" as the big money maker like it is(was) in padded TWH.

[Lazy Palomino Hunter]

Although this is walking horses, I think the "big shoe" theory applies...

check out (http://www.twhbea.com/gaitsVideo.htm) the CANTER on the horses with the big shoes!! They look so scary!

[Steve]

Morgans do have strict shoeing requirements as well as length requirements that vary by division. I do not believe that the board of directors is trying to allow "bigger packages" but that they are trying to help more horses show at the top of their game. Morgans compete on their own circuit and have done so without bands for a very long time, the addition of bands will not transform the breed or its performance. The main objective in legalizing bands is that shoes will not fall off and horses will have healthier feet. If you look at magazines alike the Morgan Connection (http://www.morganconnection.net/) you can see that Morgans can perform very well without bands. Bands will allow horses to show even when the footing is not ideal (as in mud after a rain storm at an only outside show) and will prevent injuries.

Steve

[Rudy]

Hey Lazy Pally Hunter,

You should see them in person. WOW. O.o

Most of that movement is trained in and they will generally do it without the pads. The pads just add the extra oomph wanted in the show ring.

I know many will not agree but when you see these big boys in person many actually enjoy their job. Yes, it is true that many don't and they need to find another job. These horses have been bred for this(same as some bred for trail, light shod..etc.)

I went to the Celebration this year and loved every second of it!

[Tiffani B]

I must say, that is an AWFUL example of typical saddleseat shoeing jobs. I believe what is being shown in the photos is a REPAIR job to a horse who lost most of its hoof. You can see a big section of acrylic on the left hoof - which would explain why the bands are needed. Maybe this particular horse will have them removed when his hoof grows back? Without knowing what these are photos OF (some frame of reference) it's hard to comment accurately.

I have mixed feelings on this. I am a longtime ASB owner and saddleseat exhibitor, and also showed Morgans for awhile. If I didn't have an ASB I'd have a Morgan - they're wonderful horses. But, I like the fact that there are shoeing limits in the breed. In fact, I'm one of the advocates for shoeing limits in certain divisions of the ASB show ring.

However, I can see how allowing bands can be beneficial to the horse, AS LONG AS OTHER SHOEING REGULATIONS ARE NOT CHANGED. If they keep the same restrictions on length and weight, bands can do nothing but help a horse who would already be wearing that package. They'll just help him keep it on better, eliminating the possibility of injuries and losing shoes.

However, if you have a horse who does not NEED the extra package, and also cannot keep it on because of shelly hooves or an overreaching problem, you may be seeing them in a bigger package because now the option of banding is available and the owners/trainers will be trying to maximize their gait.

I don't quite know what side of the fence to sit on...I love the Morgan as it is and would hate to see them continue their slide into "ASB clones". Although, the truely talented ASBs, and Morgans, don't need much shoe and pad to do what they do best...

[Ghazzu]

Originally posted by Steve:
The main objective in legalizing bands is that shoes will not fall off and horses will have healthier feet.

Newsflash: for the vast majoirty of Morgans, if the shoes *were* off, the feet would be healthier

[fourmares]

I'm just curious. The horse in the pictures, is it club footed or does long term use of those bands cause the hoof to warp?

Those bands sure are ugly. I don't think I'd want to show in them. But I can see where they might be a necessary evil.

[Dancing Lawn]

Those feet are one hell of a mess. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

[hitchinmygetalong]

Originally posted by Steve:
The main objective in legalizing bands is that shoes will not fall off and horses will have healthier feet. If you look at magazines alike the <snip> Bands will allow horses to show even when the footing is not ideal (as in mud after a rain storm at an only outside show) and will prevent injuries.

Steve

Steve, on the surface this looks like a very valid argument for the use of bands. And I'm CERTAIN this is the reasoning behind the vote. What makes me wonder is why, when the topic was put to a vote in 2004, was it voted down SOUNDLY (10 against to 3 for) yet this year the vote was reversed (5 against to 11 for)?

What exactly happened over the year to change all those minds?

And the voices I am hearing that are so vehemently opposed to this rule change are coming from Morgan folk who have been around for years (as in decades) and have seen the insidious little changes that are allowing even the Pleasure classes to look like a Saddlebred Stakes class.

[buryinghill1]

Originally posted by Fast Alice:
I got out of Morgans after the whole Rhythem Nation debacle.
Unfortunately, Park horses command the most $$$$, hence the new weighted shoes.

Alice, remind us, what was the Rhythm Nation debacle? Was that the ASB stallion that bred Morgans and the offspring were papered as purebred?
As for Park horses... it's ironic because there are so few of them, and their trainers are changing a whole breed. Hunter and Western Pleasure brings in the bucks at Morgan shows! Not Park!
I haven't read the rule change... will any Morgan be able to use bands? English Pleasure? Carriage?

[Magnolia]

I have a problem with the premise that this will allow the horses to be"at the top of their game" because they aren't pulling off the platform shoes that help them be at the top of their game. It's kind of like allowing hunters to use a bunch of bute because it keeps the horses who are lunged for two hours sound. It seems unfair to the person who's horse moves correctly with minimum shoeing to have to compete with a horse shoed so unnaturally as to require rather unsightly steel bands to hold the shoes on.

[buryinghill1]

Originally posted by hitchinmygetalong:
They now take the rules change proposal to the USEF.
Those of you familiar with USEF: Who can we contact at USEF in order to try and stop this rule change?


I've always been surprised that the breeds have to present their rule changes to USEF for approval. They all have their own organization and members, I figured they'd just TELL the USEF their own rules have been changed. I would assume only the FEI disciplines in the USEF book would have to get approval.

As for rule changes, you'd have to start a campaign to kill the rule change and make sure there's a few thousand member-voters at the USEF convention to vote down the rule. Good luck.

[mrs.smith]

Originally posted by buryinghill1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fast Alice:
I got out of Morgans after the whole Rhythem Nation debacle.
Unfortunately, Park horses command the most $$$$, hence the new weighted shoes.

Alice, remind us, what was the Rhythm Nation debacle? Was that the ASB stallion that bred Morgans and the offspring were papered as purebred?
As for Park horses... it's ironic because there are so few of them, and their trainers are changing a whole breed. Hunter and Western Pleasure brings in the bucks at Morgan shows! Not Park!
I haven't read the rule change... will any Morgan be able to use bands? English Pleasure? Carriage? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here's the gist of it. The trainer's name escapes me now, butan American saddlebred stallion was registered fraudulently as a morgan stallion. This horse later went on to breed many mares, and his babies sold for top dollars. When it came to light about his true breeding, the AMHA pulled his papers along with those of his offspring. The owners of the offspring now had unregistered crossbreds, instead of top dollar morgan babies. They tried to sue the AMHA to reinstate their horses as purebreds, but ultimately lost.

Years before in the late 1980's, Maxine Snow did the same thing. She tried to get around the old blood typing by buying an old morgan mare who was exempt from the rule. She later used a saddlebred mare's blood for registry purposes and bred lots of half breeds which she sold as purebred. She was also caught and the all the offsprings papers were pulled.

But these are just the ones that have got caught. There are many unproven rumors about many top stallions going back to the 1960's as being part, or mostly saddlebred. That's why the breed's look has changed so dramatically in the past thirty years. The Lippitt Morgan breeders pride themselves on keeping only pure Morgan blood in their stock. That's why a chunky little Lippitt doesn't even look related to it's park saddle brothers.

What certain people will do for the love of money.... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

[Estelle]

Ditto...it literally made my stomach turn to watch it...it's cruelty plain and simple. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif and before someone here jumps me for saying that look up the workd cruel it fits!

Originally posted by Two Simple:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lazy Palomino Hunter:
Although this is walking horses, I think the "big shoe" theory applies...

check out (http://www.twhbea.com/gaitsVideo.htm) the CANTER on the horses with the big shoes!! They look so scary!

What a *&%^$#@ freak show. That's all it is. I have limited, albeit disgusting experience with padded up horses. The gaits are a b*&ch to ride and the horses I worked with were seething idiot demons, I assume because they were uncomforable in pain. Just a freak show. I loathe the hateful devils that pad horses up like this.

If anyone can do so PLEASE check out the canter in the "performance horse" section of the website she posted here. It's enough to make you puke. I've ridden it and after I got over the shock and the tears, I vowed to never look to it again. This just makes my gutts turn inside out. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Loveofallhorses]

I have to say that that video made me sick. I have never seen a saddlebred, which is the horse with the most natural motion canter like that. That did look painful. OUCH. As for the picture of the feet, they just looked a little messy. Many horses will feel more comfortable with pads on. If you ever felt a shoe like that its not as heavy as it looks. This is a horse we are talking about. I know that I will pad my horse up for the shoe season and probably use a toe clip. I would most definately take them off if a problem arises, but if she is comfortable then the more motion the better. I am ready to get told off now.

[Kat the Horse]

We have a relatively small charity horse show here every October and the saddlebred folks come out in force. Every year there are the same 'big lick' horses to wow the crowd (but not me) and one lonesome gentleman who shows his saddlebreds 'natural'. Despite the fact that his horses are groomed to a glossy finish and perform flawlessly, ridden and driven, HE HAS NEVER PLACED in a class.

I think until the JUDGES have a lot to answer for here.

[YankeeASB]

Why is it so hard for people to keep saddlebreds and walking horses separate?

Kat the Horse: Big Lick refers to walking horses only. Please don't lump everyone together.

And, I have to agree... those feet were not ideal-rather dishy looking... definitely a repair job.

Typically, the better the horse (and the better the training-and, of course, the better the rider) the less you need on the feet. I think most saddlebred (and MORGAN) people will agree - Motion comes from natural ability and collection.

I use pads and weights on my horses feet... mostly to enhance take off and landing. I'm more in favor in adding a lead weight (4-8oz)) to a foot at a horse show than growing enormous feet and putting heavy shoes on.

I've seen plenty of horses show with incredibly long feet... and most of the time, in my opinion, it makes them look rather "floppy" going. I prefer a more crisp and hesitant way of going.

But some people dont know any better... some poeple are stupid... and some people were taught wrong.

As far as bands go... I can understand using them on a horse with very bad feet. But for the most part they are unecessary.


And I too agree that Morgans are (and have been) headed down the wrong path. I LOVE the older type heavier morgan... but, in my opinion, the newer type IS starting to look a little too much like a saddlebred (and there are one or two other breeds out there doing the same....)

[Immortality]

Originally posted by Two Simple:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lazy Palomino Hunter:
Although this is walking horses, I think the "big shoe" theory applies...

check out (http://www.twhbea.com/gaitsVideo.htm) the CANTER on the horses with the big shoes!! They look so scary!

What a *&%^$#@ freak show. That's all it is. I have limited, albeit disgusting experience with padded up horses. The gaits are a b*&ch to ride and the horses I worked with were seething idiot demons, I assume because they were uncomforable in pain. Just a freak show. I loathe the hateful devils that pad horses up like this.

If anyone can do so PLEASE check out the canter in the "performance horse" section of the website she posted here. It's enough to make you puke. I've ridden it and after I got over the shock and the tears, I vowed to never look to it again. This just makes my gutts turn inside out. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think your atttitude is enough to make ME puke. Your lack of knowlegde in gaited horses runs right out in the open. You call them seething idiot demons, but it seems that you the patience to get to know the horses, and their way of going. That, or you are too lazy to work at it. This thread is nothing but a way for people to bash horses, and ways that they nothing about. I don't come out here and bash the jumper, or dressage horses. You like a bunch of hate filled ignorant people. You wonder why people think that you snotty. Take a step back... look at yourselves. It seems you like you are all just trying to push your beliefs on someone else. If someone likes their horses, and what they do why can't you just leave them be. The majority of you go around acting like their horses are stupid, wild, sored, fill in the blank. You make me sick.

[Luvinfoofy]

Originally posted by Immortality:
If someone likes their horses, and what they do why can't you just leave them be.

Actually, we can't do whatever we want with our horses - abuse is illegal. I think the argument here is whether this is boarderline abusive or not.

Originally posted by Immortality:
I don't come out here and bash the jumper, or dressage horses. You like a bunch of hate filled ignorant people. You wonder why people think that you snotty.

I think people who have gaited breeds have just as much of a reputation for being snotty as dressage riders and hunter/jumpers, so that isn't really a valid argument.

[MissBri]

Immorality - Easy! - I've been around Morgans for about 25 years - used to show way back when. In those days some would weight the shoes and/or keep long feet - but not to the extent you see today. We kept all ours barefoot or 'flatshod' and showed each in a variety of disciplines - saddleseat (Park in those days), dressage, endurance, driving, gymkhana. Many times we would be switching saddles at the shows going from a Park class, to jumping, to gymkhana, to inhand.

Speaking on Morgans only -
Personally I would prefer to see all weighted shoes and unnaturally long feet banned for showing. Enhancing a 'natural' gait while training is to be expected (using weight rings, weighted shoes, etc.), but I feel the 'enhancements' should be removed for showing. The gaited horses used to be known for their comfortable gaits for riders that spent long, long hours in the saddle. Now with the unnatural footwear they are relegated to arena work, and receive limited and/or supervised turnout.
We did not have any of the 'long tall' modern Morgans but rather kept to the old style. If a Morgan is more than 15.3, has a long back, long face, and/or narrow forehead, it is more than likely there is something besides Morgan blood in there somewhere. In the 20's and 30's quite a few 'midnight breedings' occurred where the resident Morgan stallion's name was put as the sire, but the get didn't quite run 'true'. Hmm, 'Sailor' black bay, is quite stocky, 15H, has a wavy mane/tail, short back, wide flat forehead. 'Lady' true black, 14.2H, Lippet bred, compact little packer. Their get, 'Lil Sailor Gal' chestnut, is gonna be tall 15.3 minimum, and looks very elegant with her long face, upheadedness, high hock and knee action, and slender build. So, sometimes looking at the back generations won't give you a true reading - look at the horse.

The Morgan used to be hailed as a very versatile breed - show saddleseat one weekend, do an endurance ride the next, maybe a combined driving event another, give pony rides to the neighborhood kids, hack out to the beach bareback, run barrels, do a dressage test, maybe a 3 phase event, and lets haul some logs too. That to me is what a Morgan should be.

[equusvilla]

Just some information for those who don't know the differences between Tennessee Walking Horses (especially Big Lick shod ones) and American Saddlebred Show Horses: http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

There is not a specific rule for Saddlebreds as to how many pads can be used that I know of, with the exception of certain class types (Country Pleasure) yet I have never in all the shows I have been to seen a horse padded up like a Big Lick Walking horse. No breed wants to be teamed up with that mess!

I use a rubber pad on my horses, expecially thoses with extreme motion,weather it helps their motion or not. A rubber pad acts like a tennis shoe does for humans and helps to keep the joints from getting sore. I currently show a 19 year old mare. The higher a horse lifts his feet - the harder they will hit the ground. A leather pad (about 1/4 of 1 inch) is placed next to the hoof so the hoof can breathe and we carve out a hole in the center of the pads on the back feet.

As for the people who say that they prefer 'au natural' - does that mean that you do not use shoes on your horse at all? Because any type of shoes are not 'au natural'. I work my show horses outside most of the time on trails. The dry sandy-clay type of soil would have my horses pretty sore pretty quickly given the fact that we ride daily.

If you sore a Saddlebred - you will have a lame horse. Even the most inexperienced spectator could spot a limping horse. Horses can not trot 'square' if they are sore and every class for Saddlebreds - other than lead line, requires the horses to trot.

I have enjoyed the conversation here - but just wanted to post this because a few people seem to think that TWH and Saddlebreds are the same - or at least they are shod the same. This is a very common assumption here in Texas.

[Immortality]

Originally posted by Luvinfoofy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Originally posted by Immortality:
If someone likes their horses, and what they do why can't you just leave them be.

Actually, we can't do whatever we want with our horses - abuse is illegal. I think the argument here is whether this is boarderline abusive or not.

Originally posted by Immortality:
I don't come out here and bash the jumper, or dressage horses. You like a bunch of hate filled ignorant people. You wonder why people think that you snotty.

I think people who have gaited breeds have just as much of a reputation for being snotty as dressage riders and hunter/jumpers, so that isn't really a valid argument. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I can't say they are all that snotty. We have many open shows inviting all breeds & disciplines. We have had a whopping one horse show up for hunt seat classes. If it weren't for the gaited horses there would be no show. Spotted saddle horses, saddlebreds, walking horses, racking horses are there in endless amounts. The last show we held had 272 entries. Almost all of them were gaited horses with exception of some quarter horses.

Forgot to add:

I am not talking about illegal done things to horses. Someone can say they have their horse shod, and GODFORBID! It seems as if people aren't bunched into thinking whatever the mojority of you believe, that they are just stupid, and should have their horses taken away. I can say I show, and that would be wrong. If I said that I let my horse stand in the stall, that would be wrong. It doesn't matter what people do, you guys are just never happy. You have to bash on them until time ends. Anytime some says something about bands, or shoeing... here goes the Saddlebreds, and Walking Horses being thrown into. A Saddlebred & Walking Horse are nothing alike. Travel diffrently, diffrent personalities, conformation differences, etc. But nevermind... you only read, and believe what you want too. No one will ever be able to convince you that a Walking Horse, a Saddlebred, or Morgans are diffrent breeds. You just lump them all together no matter what.

I know I sound rude, but it just ruffles me that people don't care about other people. They seem to care about themselves. Do you go up to children you don't know, and tell them all this bad stuff you "know" to be true if you see them on a Walking Horse or Saddlebred? People should be happy with whatever horse they choose. They shouldn't feel the ridiculed. If I said I had quarter horses, here would come the thing on them being bleed. If I said I had Walking Horses, they would be sored no matter if it was a flat shod horse.

As for bands on a horse, there is no harm in them. I know many horses that wear them. I have never seen where it hurts them. Some horses just have such poor feet that they can't even wear a shoe without pads. I know of a couple of Hackneys that have this problem. Unless a band is setting right on the coronet band or close to it, there is no problem. And those pics used for samples, are a bad example. But it does seem as he has thrown his shoes fromt he looks of the reconstruction work that has been done. What makes it look so bad is all the epoxy.

[Steve]

Originally posted by Luvinfoofy:

Actually, we can't do whatever we want with our horses - abuse is illegal. I think the argument here is whether this is boarderline abusive or not.



It is obviously not abusive, unless you consider jumping abusive. How many horses do you know would naturally be jumping such high fences all the time by themselves, a few absolutely would be...but not as many as show on the jumping circuit. Jumpers are trained to do their job, just like park horses; and they both have nice lives. Park horses are not out showing every weekend; they show about once or twice a month (in probably 2 classes a show) and they are taken care of the best.

This discussion was not about abuse, it was about Morgans legalizing bands. It was not about Saddlebreds or Chantilly Lace, it was about bands; the additional comments are not appropriate or relevant to the discussion.

Steve

[equusvilla]

Wanted to add in one more thing:

I understand that some people are unsure about what one rule change might do for other rules, but I do think that bands and clips put on properly, do help a horse and do not hurt them at all. I use them and they work especially well when I am trail riding. If my horse steps in mud (icky red clay in my area) it keeps the mud from suctioning off the shoe.

[Luvinfoofy]

Originally posted by Steve:
It is obviously not abusive, unless you consider jumping abusive. How many horses do you know would naturally be jumping such high fences all the time by themselves, a few absolutely would be...but not as many as show on the jumping circuit. Jumpers are trained to do their job, just like park horses; and they both have nice lives. Park horses are not out showing every weekend; they show about once or twice a month (in probably 2 classes a show) and they are taken care of the best.

This discussion was not about abuse, it was about Morgans legalizing bands. It was not about Saddlebreds or Chantilly Lace, it was about bands; the additional comments are not appropriate or relevant to the discussion.

Steve

If you go back and read the posts prior to mine, you will see that this was -becoming- a discussion about whether "extreme shoeing" is abusive or not.

I never said if I thought it was abusive or not, because I am staying out of that. I do not doubt that there are plenty of gaited horses with wonderful lives.

However, I do not think that you can use jumping as a comparison as far as abuse goes because you can't muscle a horse over a 4' fence. The exaggerated gait that you see in these breeds is caused by a reaction. Reaction to shoeing, training, and sometimes (unfortunately) even pain. When jumping, it isn't a jerk reaction unless you are poling or using something to scare the horse over the fence.

Honestly, if any of my horses decide that they aren't going to jump a fence - there isn't any way in hell I'm going to make them. Sure, we can have a very heated *discussion* about it, and in the end I usually win.. but if they aren't going to do it, they won't.

As in all breeds, if a horse doesn't truly enjoy its job, it will be hard for it to reach the top levels. In no way shape or form am I bashing Morgans, TWHs or Saddlebreds, I just took offense to the comment of dressage and jumping riders being snotty - I don't feel that kind of behavior is any different than when someone starts throwing a fit about gaited breeds. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

[khorsem]

They are allowing bands but not changing the length/weight limit, is that correct? Then what is the problem? The change is obviously to help those horses that have weak hooves or clip themselves a lot.

As far as the Arab change - They are certainly NOT allowing the heavy packages, either - they've changed the way they measure from weight to size of shoe/length of foot.

[Immortality]

Here is what I don't understand, you don't mind people breed bashing (ie: Two Simple calling gaited breeds seething idiot demons, and freak shows) but I say something about people being snotty, and you get all offended. That is what makes no sense to me.

[Luvinfoofy]

Originally posted by Immortality:
Here is what I don't understand, you don't mind people breed bashing (ie: Two Simple calling gaited breeds seething idiot demons, and freak shows) but I say something about people being snotty, and you get all offended. That is what makes no sense to me.

I never said that I didn't mind people breed bashing. You can go ahead and defend your breeds (I'm sure as heck not going to, because I know that the people who breed and train these horses know more about them than I do..), and I'll go ahead and defend my riding style.

When you called dressage riders and jumpers snotty, I defended them because *I* am one. If you want to defend your favorite breeds.. go for it, but do not make personal attacks on people who are not at all involved. "Snottiness" in the horse world is spread out pretty evenly throughout all types of riding, with the exception of eventers. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[khorsem]

You don't think it's personal when people insinuate that all saddle seat riders abuse their horses because of the stupid things that some do? Wouldn't anyone take it personal if someone accused you of abusing the animal you love and care for?

[Luvinfoofy]

Originally posted by khorsem:
You don't think it's personal when people insinuate that all saddle seat riders abuse their horses because of the stupid things that some do? Wouldn't anyone take it personal if someone accused you of abusing the animal you love and care for?

Hey, I never said it wasn't personal. READ what I said.. I'm leaving it up to the people who breed, own and show these horses to defend them. I'm defending my type of riding, now you go and defend yours.. but DO NOT bring me into it.

Edited to add: If anyone wants to argue with me about it, please start a PT. I'm actually kind of curious as to others opinions on the use of bands and this is taking over the thread.

SORRY to the OP(hitchinmygetalong)!

[khorsem]

Sorry, didn't intend to bring you into it... The point is, that I don't think anyone should have to defend their discipline - They all have their place, and their own methods. Do I see things in other disciplines that I don't agree with? Do I see things in my own discipline that I don't agree with? Absolutely - But I can't attribute what "some" do that is wrong as something wrong with that whole breed/discipline - it's silly.

[Luvinfoofy]

Yes!! Which is why I didn't like it when Immortality said that people who do dressage and jump are snotty. I wasn't jumping on you or the gaited breeds, just defending those of us that don't fall under that generalization. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[khorsem]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Agreed.
And I certainly don't think dressage people are snobs. (I mean, I'm sure some are, but I've met plenty of snobs everywhere) I kind of thought that the person who posted that comment was trying to hit home as to what ground others were treading on by bashing ss horses. I really don't think that it was meant to personally offend anyone. And if it was, then screw em - no one deserves to be sterotyped like that.

And just to clarify, not all saddle seat breeds are gaited and not all gaited horses are saddle seat. The gaited saddle seat breeds are TWH, some Saddlebreds, some NSH.

[mrd]

Originally posted by fourmares:
Those bands sure are ugly. I don't think I'd want to show in them.

You would hardly see the bands - the hoof black goes right over it and over the shoe and anything else and all just looks like hoof. You would have to be close up to see them in a show.

Okay, so back to the topic. If we are just talking about bands going on to keep shoes on - the same shoes they are using now - what is so bad about that? Some horses need help. Tearing off huge chunks of hoof wall would be more damaging than the bands.

[BlackWatchLady]

Ugg, Those feet are atrocious!

[BlackWatchLady]

Originally posted by Lazy Palomino Hunter:
Although this is walking horses, I think the "big shoe" theory applies...

check out (http://www.twhbea.com/gaitsVideo.htm) the CANTER on the horses with the big shoes!! They look so scary!


Oh man, that makes me absolutly sick, http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

[Loveofallhorses]

This conversation can go on 4 everrrrrrrrrrrrr. It has been talked about numerous times on this website. Are there any moderators on here. MIght as well add on to the same 35 page topic.

[Ghazzu]

Originally posted by mrd:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fourmares:
Those bands sure are ugly. I don't think I'd want to show in them.

You would hardly see the bands - the hoof black goes right over it and over the shoe and anything else and all just looks like hoof. You would have to be close up to see them in a show.

Okay, so back to the topic. If we are just talking about bands going on to keep shoes on - the same shoes they are using now - what is so bad about that? Some horses need help. Tearing off huge chunks of hoof wall would be more damaging than the bands. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here's a novel thought--if the horse has crappy hoof quality, perhaps a break from showing while the problems are addressed and corrected would be a Good Thing?

[CA ASB]

Originally posted by Luvinfoofy:
However, I do not think that you can use jumping as a comparison as far as abuse goes because you can't muscle a horse over a 4' fence. The exaggerated gait that you see in these breeds is caused by a reaction. Reaction to shoeing, training, and sometimes (unfortunately) even pain. When jumping, it isn't a jerk reaction unless you are poling or using something to scare the horse over the fence.



Um, isn't what all horses end up doing a "reaction" to training? (Including jumping). If you have ever been around a field of babies of ASB or Morgan or Hackney or any other naturally high stepping breed, you'd soon learn that the motion is NOT a reaction to heavy shoeing.

I've got one ASB who, even with her white feet, has the strongest/toughest feet of virtually any horse in the barn. No problem for her to go barefoot at all. She also *does not* want to pick them up and no amount of shoeing is going to make her do that. So, she's an awesome Western horse because that's what she likes to do. My gelding, OTOH, has shelly awful feet that break off if you sneeze on them (no matter what we do for him nutritionally). He's got wonderful motion. We tried showing him Country Pleasure - without pads, and he's a mid-teen now with pidgeon toes. He has enough motion that he ends up being "ouchy" without pads. So, we added a pad as a shock absorber as equusvilla pointed out. Now? He's happy with lots of nice motion and a pad.

I had one horse who wore a band for one show season on one foot. He developed a habit of overstriding on that side and pulled that shoe off regularly. The band helped. Through a reaction to training and shoeing <g> that year, we were able to correct the overstride and the band came off.

[wiseman]

It's totally amazing the ignorance people show when it comes to breeds they know absolutly nothing about. If people would worry more about the breed they have and issues within it instead of looking at others that they have no history about, know nothing about the training, and know nothing about the breed industry, then we all might be a lot better off. It amazes me when their idiot attitude and lack of knowlegde comes out....it makes me shake my head and laugh...oh and don't forget about the "drama" most put in their post.....absolutley amazing

[TheJenners]

Originally posted by Lazy Palomino Hunter:
Although this is walking horses, I think the "big shoe" theory applies...

check out (http://www.twhbea.com/gaitsVideo.htm) the CANTER on the horses with the big shoes!! They look so scary!

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif God that is so sad...I must be hormonal, but I cried when I saw that.

[khorsem]

You can not judge every saddle seat breed on ONE type of ONE breed of horse.

[Albion]

CA ASB, are you saying that the big lick Walkers move like that NATURALLY?

I'm more than willing to believe that there are plenty of ASBs, Hackneys, etc. who have a lot of motion - NATURALLY - after all, they've been bred for it for centuries (well - the breeds that make up the Hackney, ASB, etc.). I have a REALLY hard time believing those Walkers that move in such a ... perversion of what Walkers do naturally (the running walk etc.) do that WITHOUT the big shoes, the chains, etc.

[khorsem]

I don't believe that CA was referring to or providing any sort of testament regarding Walkers...

[CA ASB]

Thanks, khorsem.

[Kat the Horse]

I try not to get too emotionally caught up on all the snarking going on here, but I just to point out: my post was to highlight the fact that (a) the 'no big shoe' guy was riding a SADDLEBRED who was gaiting well, a joy to watch, and was absolutely one lovely animal.

The other horses in the class had on the Frankenstein footware and were doing the paddlewheel stuff to beat the band.

I KNOW what a Saddlebred looks like. I'm familiar with 'gaited' breeds, and having rode a 'natural' pacer for most of my callow youth, know how smooth and comfy the ride can be.

The horses in this class were all Saddlebreds.

In looking at the 'action' I could not understand why those who were doing the giantic paddlewheel, with the aid of God-knows-what tacked, rubbed, screwed, glued and tatooed to their poor feet were more desireable and attractive than the high-stepping, smooth gaited and elegant 'natural' saddlebred. It was patently obvious who was the better animal!

[bludejavu]

Kat - what you may have seen is a breed that is totally apart from Saddlebreds and they are called Walkingbreds (part Walker, part Saddlebred). If it was an open class, then a gaited Saddlebred would be eligible to enter but if the judge was a Walking Horse judge (which is usually who judges Walkingbred classes), then a Saddlebred would have looked like an alien to him as it would have been racking instead of "walking". Walkingbreds are padded just like purebred Walking Horses and are shown in exactly the same manner. Some of them look more like a Saddlebred in structure but they move like the other half of their breeding - the Walking Horse. That would account for the judge not placing the horse as a purebred racking Saddlebred would not have been his cup of tea.

[Tiffani B]

Just what exactly do you call Frankenstein footwear? Most ASBs, especially GAITED ones, do NOT wear big shoe packages - it makes it very hard for them to do all 5 gaits. The big packages are found only on the TWH.

A typical ASB shoe is one leather pad, plus one wedge or plastic pad, for a grand total of maybe 1/2" to 1" of pads, plus a shoe. The stacks that exceed 3" and sometimes much more are ONLY found on the TWH and are only wearable by a lateral-moving horse due to the way it moves (landing severely heel-first with a sustained time period on the ground). A trotting horse could not possibly function in that type of package.

And you used the term "big lick". That is strictly a TWH term and is never used in reference to Saddlebreds. At least, not by those who know anything about the two breeds...but it's commonly used by the ignorant.

And based on your description of the way the horses moved, and the shoes, I FIRMLY believe you were watching either a TWH show, or a gaited show where crossbreds are shown, and yes, sometimes someone will take a purebred ASB. But none of the horses there will trot. In the ASB ring, motion like a TWH is NOT desirable since it is very unnatural to the ASB. If you ever see an ASB or a partbred (usually crossed with a TWH) performing at a gaited-only show (no trotting in the classes) then you might see a perversion of the ASB slow-gait and rack or something that resembles the TWH running walk. But you are not seeing how a true ASB is represented in the show ring.

[CA ASB]

Actually, I went back and read the first post from Kat the Horse and then saw where she is from. I believe she is speaking of the Salina horse show that is a charity show and is also the home of the Kansas Futurity (for ASBs). Am I correct?

Kat - are you speaking of this year? If so, I was at the show. In the gaited class (since you state the horse gaited wonderfully), there was only one entry. I know as I was riding the horse for a friend. And, since there were so few horses there, I'm sure I would have noted a gentleman with a barefoot ASB - but quite honestly, I didn't see anyone like that at all.

As to not placing, no ASB class had over 4 entries in it this year, so the horse would have placed had it been there.

[Luvinfoofy]

Originally posted by CA ASB:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Luvinfoofy:
However, I do not think that you can use jumping as a comparison as far as abuse goes because you can't muscle a horse over a 4' fence. The exaggerated gait that you see in these breeds is caused by a reaction. Reaction to shoeing, training, and sometimes (unfortunately) even pain. When jumping, it isn't a jerk reaction unless you are poling or using something to scare the horse over the fence.



Um, isn't what all horses end up doing a "reaction" to training? (Including jumping). If you have ever been around a field of babies of ASB or Morgan or Hackney or any other naturally high stepping breed, you'd soon learn that the motion is NOT a reaction to heavy shoeing.

I've got one ASB who, even with her white feet, has the strongest/toughest feet of virtually any horse in the barn. No problem for her to go barefoot at all. She also *does not* want to pick them up and no amount of shoeing is going to make her do that. So, she's an awesome Western horse because that's what she likes to do. My gelding, OTOH, has shelly awful feet that break off if you sneeze on them (no matter what we do for him nutritionally). He's got wonderful motion. We tried showing him Country Pleasure - without pads, and he's a mid-teen now with pidgeon toes. He has enough motion that he ends up being "ouchy" without pads. So, we added a pad as a shock absorber as equusvilla pointed out. Now? He's happy with lots of nice motion and a pad.

I had one horse who wore a band for one show season on one foot. He developed a habit of overstriding on that side and pulled that shoe off regularly. The band helped. Through a reaction to training and shoeing <g> that year, we were able to correct the overstride and the band came off. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You misunderstood me. I stand by what I said..
"The exaggerated gait that you see in these breeds is caused by a reaction."

I didn't say that they don't step high naturally, I said that when a gait is exaggerated as it is, there is something causing that reaction. Moreover, I didn't say that shoeing is the only cause of reaction! In this entire thread, I haven't said anything about not being a fan of pads OR bands, so you don't have to explain yourself to me.

[Noctis]

I ride hunters and jumpers, but some of the best times I ever had were riding saddlebreds and morgans. There is nothing in the world like those high trots..and the best thing is that the truly great ones can do it with normal shoes. Those horses seemed to step high just to show off. To me, not being a "saddleseat" person with great knowledge, seems the way it should be. Like they hit a plateau and couldn't get better/higher etc., or didnt match up to the older styles, and went "artificial". It happens in every breed/style. And in many ways it sucks. Not saying shoes/pads are evil, but how they are used, at least in some ways. Sure most of them arent lame, they get amazing care, but i'd love to see them trained and not shod so heavy/high. But thats just me, a saddlebred and morgan dabbler.

[CA ASB]

Yes, but you did say you didn't think that jumping could be used as a comparison - and isn't a 4' jump an "exaggerated" height of what a horse might naturally do on their own? BTW, I indicated as you did that both training and shoeing could be considered a reaction. I *should* have made myself more clear by stating that the natural motion expressed by an ASB is not a reaction to shoeing OR training OR via pain.

Further, what I was explaining is that I have a horse that you might think has "exaggerated" motion, but it is his naturally. However, he is most comfortable exhibiting that motion in a pad rather than doing so without one.

[Little Indian]

Originally posted by CA ASB:


I've got one ASB who, even with her white feet, has the strongest/toughest feet of virtually any horse in the barn.

FYI, I am not attacking you in any way, shape, or form. Isn't that just a myth? I have one gelding and one colt with all white feet, and another gelding with two white feet. None of them have ever had any issues with their feet and all actually have super feet. (Granted, the colt is only 6 months old on the 6th of this month, but his feet are awesome)

[Luvinfoofy]

Again, jumping a fence isn't a jerk reaction, so it doesn't matter if it is exaggerated or not.

If I pinch you, you'll flinch. If I ask you to jump a creek, you'll just look at me like I'm crazy. Apples and Oranges.

Some of these horses DO have exaggerated gaits, or they would all be ridden with flat shoes or *gasp* barefoot.

[Aptor Hours]

Sounds fair to ride them all in flat shoes and while we are at it we should remove all jumping from the three day event. Is that ok with everybody? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Albion]

Aptor Hours, I believe the point some people are trying to make is that if the "extreme" motion is natural in all these horses (I don't doubt that it is in some of them, but if it were so-very-common, they wouldn't be worth a lot of money, would they now?), why do they need chains, stretchies, weighted shoes, built up shoes, long toes, etc. etc. etc.? If the extreme motion is NATURAL, you shouldn't NEED to do any of that. Just like if a horse is NATURALLY tidy over fences, you don't NEED to pole it, or sore it, or anything else.

[SLW]

Originally posted by greysandbays:
If the rag-taggle reports I've heard from the AHA convention, the Arabian Association is headed down the same path.

I D I O T S, the whole blooming works of 'em.

If they want contests for creative farriery, then have farrier competions and leave the horses out of it.

The Arabian association just allowed an increase in the length of the hoof to 5". Additionally, pads and shoes may be added to that length. Foolish if not downright cruel.

[Aptor Hours]

Originally posted by Albion:
Aptor Hours, I believe the point some people are trying to make is that if the "extreme" motion is natural in all these horses (I don't doubt that it is in some of them, but if it were so-very-common, they wouldn't be worth a lot of money, would they now?), why do they need chains, stretchies, weighted shoes, built up shoes, long toes, etc. etc. etc.? If the extreme motion is NATURAL, you shouldn't NEED to do any of that. Just like if a horse is NATURALLY tidy over fences, you don't NEED to pole it, or sore it, or anything else.

Very sorry but I have to disagree with you on this one...no problem though http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Maybe someday you will be fortunate to ride a horse like this and you will understand but until you do.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Noctis]

i dont really see how riding a horse with greatly built up shoes at speed has anything to do with jumping. they do that rather naturally (and yes the action starts out as natural, i know this, but then exaggerated). at least all *my* happy fence jumpers do!

and Aptor..i HAVE ridden horses like that...and its amazing. And the horse also wasnt hugely padded up or weighted. Stretchies yes, shod yes, small weights yes, huge pads/weights, needing to be held on, no. And i LOVED it. cant wait to do it again. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Steve]

My horses do not have bands and they do not need them, I just think it is a nice option to have. I don't think that some people realize that the weight of the shoe can not be increased and increased because it will become too heavy and impede the horse’s motion instead of enhancing it.

I kind of think of bands as double knotting a shoe lace, the one knot is great for so many things like going for a jog...but if you are going to be running a marathon, you really need to have the double knot (or in this case the band). I honestly do not see why people who are not even involved with the breed have such a concerned interest in weather we have bands or if we don't, I personally think it will just help the horses and that’s what I care about.

[Albion]

My my Aptor, perhaps one day you will ride a great jumper and understand. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Again, if the EXTREME motion is so natural to ALL these horses, WHY do you need all the training "extras"?

[Noctis]

well said Albion http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

and great sig.

[shakeytails]

Ok, I finally looked at the pics of the feet posted. That horse appears to have crappy feet, period. The epoxy on the left foot may be needed because he yanked a shoe off and took part of his foot with it. The bands should prevent that from happening again. The clips just keep the shoe from slipping back. No different than the little clips that many h/j shoes have, just a different form. I doubt that letting him go barefoot(as another poster suggested) is going to help much- that dish isn't going to go away, and no- it wasn't caused by the bands. I've personally never had a horse with bands, though I wouldn't hesitate to use them if needed. FYI, the bands are loose most of the time, and "snugged up" when the horse is worked. They are not really tight, ever.

I imagine the bands will only be used much for Morgan Park horses, where weight limits are unrestricted(or used to be). I forget- Is there a toe length limit on park horses? And bands are a PITA, so I don't think that all of a sudden, every horse in the show ring will be wearing them. I honestly don't see a problem with it.

Another FYI for those that don't know- these horses will only carry so much weight (which depends on the individual horse) before he looks labored and unnatural in his way of going, which is not rewarded in the show ring. There's an old saying- "The good ones go light." Trainers and farriers don't just arbitrarily add weight, because it just doesn't work!

[Aptor Hours]

Originally posted by Albion:
My my Aptor, perhaps one day you will ride a great jumper and understand. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Again, if the EXTREME motion is so natural to ALL these horses, WHY do you need all the training "extras"?

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gifSo jumping horses recieve no extra training? Odd but when I boarded at an event barn there was all kinds of jumping and training and galloping over water jumps even though every single horse hated the water. Also a lot of screwing studs into shoes which I am sure you know is not really great for legs. I think you are helping make the point that we all use training devices and they aren't bad so just relax and be happy like me and my appypoo http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[CA ASB]

Originally posted by Luvinfoofy:
Again, jumping a fence isn't a jerk reaction, so it doesn't matter if it is exaggerated or not.

If I pinch you, you'll flinch. If I ask you to jump a creek, you'll just look at me like I'm crazy. Apples and Oranges.



Oh, I can't resist, LOL - I've seen plenty of horses jump in reaction to the jerk on their back (aka a jerk reaction!).

Yes, if you pinch me, I'll flinch. If you pinch me when I'm standing next to a creek, I'm highly likely to jump the creek. Still sounds similar to me ... you teach them to jump higher via training. You teach them to trot higher via training. If done correctly, there's no PINCHING (pain) with either one.

[Tiffani B]

Albion, I will try to answer your question as to why we need the "extras".

A horse, wild and free in a field, can piaffe, sidepass, pivot, etc. However, they would not do this repeatedly for hours on end unless they had a screw loose. The purpose of dressage training, gymnastics, is to increase their flexibility and ABILITY to perform these maneuvers when asked, with no hesitation or discomfort.

A good (saddleseat) Saddlebred, barefoot and free in a field, will trot high above level, snapping his knees and hocks up to his chest and belly...for about ten strides...then he goes back to grazing or bucking or running or whatever it was he was doing before the truck blew past and blared its horn.

Our training methods build up their muscles and teach them to maintain that natural action for a sustained period of time (stretchies, chains, etc). The shoes also help them to sustain it without much effort.

I know it goes against logic to think a weighted shoe is easier to move than a lighter one, but it was explained to me this way and in my years of being around this discipline, it's about the best analogy I've heard...

If you take an empty pail and swing it around (up and down circle), the slightest breeze will send it off its path. Your wrist might rotate a bit at the back, which will turn the bucket sideways. Maybe it'll rock on its handle...whatever it is, the circle is not pushed out to its furthest limits and if you try to do it forcefully, you will subscribe a very inconsistent circle and your arm will get tired. Not to mention, you'll probably whack yourself upside the head with the pail. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If you add a few inches of water to the pail and swing it again, the water will push the bucket out to the furthest arc of the circle, and keep it steady. Yes, it takes more effort to get it moving, but once it's in motion it's effortless.

Our training methods are to strengthen the horses' shoulders and legs and back muscles to help him be able to get his motion started. The shoes just keep it going in the direction it wants to go. If that direction is up and out, GREAT! But not all horses have that natural direction - so they do not make it as Saddleseat show horses.

We can affect the direction of the motion to a certain degree with angles, weights in various parts of the shoes, and length. That is why the shoeing packages are so customized to each horse, and why our horses remain sound for so long, often showing at the highest levels well into their teens - because our farriers watch each horse move and determine the best way to push their arc to its limit (probably the part most of you dislike), and have them take off and land at the best angle for their conformation (the good part). But I have also found that no matter what is done, the shoes will only exaggerate WHAT ALREADY EXISTS.

If you were to put a weighted package on a QH, the horse would clip daisies with even more ferocity than before. And more weight does not equal more motion - it can have the opposite effect. It's a fine line between pushing the arc and deflating it.

Just as a horse might choose to jump a higher fence on a whim, he would never do it 15 times in a row on his own for fun. Yet a rider will ask him to do it under saddle, at a full gallop, and not touch a single rail. A dressage horse will certainly not choose to sidepass out in the field when going in a straight line will do, but the rider asks it anyways. For the entire length of the rail. The cutting horse will most likely not be inclinded to do sliding stops and pivots on his own in a pasture except in play, but he does it when asked by his rider.

All activities we ask of the horse are to push them to their absolute limit, whether it's the highest jump they can do, the quickest pivot, or the most correct piaffe. Saddleseat riders simply ask their horses to use their legs to the limit THEY can do. We do not train for hours on end, or put their legs at risk with 6' jumps - we add a few ounces of weight to their shoes.

Is this evil? To some of you, yes, it's the worst thing in the world. But most of you who feel this way (not all, but most) have never spent more than maybe a few hours watching a show, or worse yet, just looked at photos. Then you go talk in your little groups about how evil saddleseat is.

Instead, go get a job in a saddleseat barn. Work there for a year. Spend time talking to the vets and farriers. Watch the trainers. Ask them why they choose the shoeing packages they do and how each change might affect the horse. Stay there for a year - and then come back on this forum and debate with us again. Because otherwise you are no more knowledgeable about saddleseat than you are about the moon. You can see the moon at night, you saw a video of someone walking on it, and you read about it online - but you've never been there.

[Luvinfoofy]

Thanks for the kind and detailed explanation, Tiffani. I don't agree with absolutely everything you have said, but it sure gave me a lot to think about. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif I've spent some time at a farm with ASBs, and learned a lot, but there are still some things I don't understand, and a couple things I don't agree with. Either way, they were really cool animals! I have very little experience with TWHs, so I really can't comment on them. Anyway, thanks for the new insight.. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[CarrieK]

This conversation can go on 4 everrrrrrrrrrrrr. It has been talked about numerous times on this website. Are there any moderators on here. MIght as well add on to the same 35 page topic
Very true. But as long as folks blast training practices that they don't use and that they don't approve of as abuse, the folks who use and approve of those practices will respond. And since there will never be a consensus or even an agreement to disagree, the conversation continues.

Tiffani B: wonderful post!

[hitchinmygetalong]

Tiffani B:

As the originator of this topic, I have watched it ever so carefully and was *this* close to having a moderator close it because of the arguments when I read your post.

I greatly appreciate the time you took to explain so carefully and clearly some of the gaited horse training methods. Thank you.

After thinking this whole controversy over, I will concede that in the hands of caring and careful trainers the bands/turnbuckles do seem to serve a purpose. But you will also have to admit that there are some out there that will "overdo" it to the detriment of the horse.

Personally (and this is a stance I will never budge on) I would much rather see a Morgan (this discussion was supposed to be about Morgans, after all) strutting his stuff barefoot or with light shoes than to see that heavy, exaggerated, foot-flinging gait so popular in the show ring. I guess I'll have to stay away from the shows and just go watch them playing in the pastures, heads high and tails flagged, romping for the sheer joy of it.

Thank you all for your input, and again, a special thanks to Tiffani B.

[YankeeASB]

Originally posted by Noctis:
i dont really see how riding a horse with greatly built up shoes at speed has anything to do with jumping. they do that rather naturally (and yes the action starts out as natural, i know this, but then exaggerated). at least all *my* happy fence jumpers do!

and Aptor..i HAVE ridden horses like that...and its amazing. And the horse also wasnt hugely padded up or weighted. Stretchies yes, shod yes, small weights yes, huge pads/weights, needing to be held on, no. And i LOVED it. cant wait to do it again. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I have ridden jumpers... quite a few in fact. I rode at a farm when I was younger that had saddlebreds AND jumpers - and a few other things tossed into the mix. It was fun, it really was, and I still occassionally jump on one of my lesson saddlebreds (who has been both a 5-gaited horse, a dressage horse, and a jumper in his day) and will take him through a few jumps just for fun. He likes it. But he also likes to rack (however, from what I have gathered from his previous owner... HATED dressage)

The action of jumping DOES start out as natural.. and is enhanced with training so that they are capable of doing it over and over and over again all within the space of a few minutes. THAT is NOT natural. But they seem to enjoy it once they get the hang of it... with proper training- and the proper attitude.

And you know how a GOOD jumper with gather itself, or swell, or get in the bridle just before a jump? That little adrenaline rush they get just before they do what they LOVE to do? Well... that's what a good saddlebred does-either right when you first get on (the very best ones), or when you first ask it to trot, or just as you're hitting the gate at a show - they LOVE what they are doing... adrenaline junkies even. And the ones that DON'T get that swell... well, there's no amount of shoeing that will change that. They either love it, or they don't.

The majority of saddlebreds DON"T have giant feet. They are as you desrcibed - shod, sometimes weighted, a little pad to prevent concussion injuries. The occasional stretchers to build muscle and increase stamina - and chains to improve their timing. All of these things are used to enhance what they are naturally capable of. A horse who isn't naturally capable of doing it cannot be taught to do it with shoeing.

Tiffani made (as usual) an excellent post.

And please excuse any spelling or typing errors.. I am not yet fully awake. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[herptile]

Please pardon my ignorance,but what is soring?
thanks in advance

[khorsem]

Originally posted by SLW:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by greysandbays:
If the rag-taggle reports I've heard from the AHA convention, the Arabian Association is headed down the same path.

I D I O T S, the whole blooming works of 'em.


If they want contests for creative farriery, then have farrier competions and leave the horses out of it.

The Arabian association just allowed an increase in the length of the hoof to 5". Additionally, pads and shoes may be added to that length. Foolish if not downright cruel. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ACTUALLY the length increase is INCLUDING pads, and only for the 1/2 Arabians, so the larger horses (there are a LOT of 1/2s up well over 16h with big ole feet) don't need to be crammed into 4" feet anymore... There were plenty of studies conducted on this, and the foot studies were done in the SPORT HORSE arena - of what was comfortable and natural -

[CarrieK]

Please pardon my ignorance,but what is soring?

An article on soring (http://www.thegaitedhorse.com/morethansore.htm)

[khorsem]

AGAIN - Soring is a practice in the TWH world - I can't comment, because I've not been exposed to that world, but DO NOT GENERALIZE as everyone has done for this entire topic. What one Saddle Seat breed does, certainly does not mean that they all do.

[XHalt]

It makes me sick to see the things that are done to these poor horses. The chains, the shoes, fire extinguishers, bottles of chemicals, nails stuck in their feet, firecrackers, etc. I personally think it's down right torture. I only wish that Morgan's weren't so sweet and loving and would actually fight back.

[Timex]

so, back to the original post. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif the pictures in the OP are obviously of a horse who has some hoof issues. i'd be willing to bet that the toe clip, band, epoxy, are all an attempt to keep the horse's shoe ON, rather then make the horse travel a certain way. Those pictures are therefore not valid to the arguement of whether or not Morgans should be allowed to band. The rule change doesn't have anything to do with how owners and farriers should try to keep a horse sound, it involves what is allowed for showing. so, the picture and the rule change, it's apples and oranges. they don't go together.

[Tiffani B]

XHALT, it's posts like yours that serve to spread misunderstanding and complete falsities about what goes on. You make it sound like we spray a horse with a fire extinguisher and throw firecrackers at them...totally wrong and posted with blatant misunderstanding of how and why these things are used, and perhaps with the hope that someone will believe you and join the hate club. If anyone wants to see what happens at a training barn with a fire extinguisher or firecracker, please go to http://www.indiansummerfarm.com/lily.htm and view the view of Lily at home. We are using baby powder, but it's the same idea - a puff of smoke to give the horse a challenge to overcome and to teach them to be fearless in the face of whatever comes.

As for the chemicals and nails - again, you're muddling up TWH with trotting breeds like the Morgan and ASB. And the TWH world is trying very hard to stop this type of thing. But that's a whole 'nother thread.

And chains and shoes have been explained. They are not evil or cruel, and only people who do not understand them would assume so.

[XHalt]

Tiffany B, sounds like you are one of the good ones.

[Noctis]

Yankee ASB, I was saying moderation with chains, stretchies etc is fine and muscle building like so many things done in any breed/discipline. And i know that a ton of the morgans and saddlebreds are thrilled with their jobs. I was just wishing that the extremes (to me, the earlier posted canter clips, twh i know, but its an extreme) would be moderated. And the extreme is what most people see and harp on. *sigh* So I wasn't trying to say its all evil, it has its rightful place!

And Tiffani B, thank you so much for your great posts, and your mare is amazingly beautiful. She reminds me of Gracie, the first saddlebred I ever rode (that wasnt a hunter. My first good jumper (childrens) was a saddlebred mare).

[CarrieK]

AGAIN - Soring is a practice in the TWH world - I can't comment, because I've not been exposed to that world, but DO NOT GENERALIZE as everyone has done for this entire topic. What one Saddle Seat breed does, certainly does not mean that they all do.
Since the only response between your two posts is mine with the link to the article, is this comment directed at me? I hope not, since a) the link is to an article posted on a gaited horse site and is not written in a dis-respectful or inflammatory tone and b) I own a Saddlebred.

[khorsem]

No, it wasn't directed at you - Just wanted to clarify re-the link before people started talking about the cruel things that all saddle seat people do to their horses again. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[CarrieK]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[Amwrider]

Having trained Morgans, I want to add my 2 cents.

As stated, the bands do not enhance action, they merely help keep the shoe on. There are weight limits and length limits on Morgans so the bands will not change enything except to help the horse keep its shoes on.

I love Tiffany's explaination with swinging an empty bucket and then swinging a weighted bucket, I have heard her use that explaination before for reasons why a slightly weighted foot helps the horse and it is very accurate.

A good saddle seat horse had a different way of moving, their foot makes a much taller and circular arc. If you attached a light to the hoof and trotted the horse in the dark, you would see almost a circular motion and the little extra weight helps control that motion. Put lights on a hunter or a QH at the trot and you would see a completely different pattern, much more of a stretched out oval.

Now lets get back to the weighted shoe and the circular arc that the hoof travels, the extra weight of the heavier shoe helps the horse manage the arc and when weighted properly for that horse, the horse should move more efficiently, not more labored.

That same centrifugal force that helps the foot move more efficiently, also pulls at the weight that is on the hoof. Remember, our horses are not doing a leisurely jog, they are flying around the ring at a trot that moves along almost as fast as a hunter or hunter/hack's extended canter. There is a great deal of force applied to the nails and to the rear of the shoe which of course is not nailed to the foot. It is very common for shoes to get tossed in the ring from clinches failing. The nails used are pretty long also. When that shoe comes off, it can take quite a bit of hoof with it. The bands simply help to combat the centrifugal force pulling on the back of the shoe and stressing the nail clinches.

Now with Morgans, at a rated show, if a Morgan throws a shoe, the shoe is weighed before it is put back on the horse. The shoe, pad, wedge, everything in the package must meet strict weight requirements. Adding a band will mean that the shoes will have to be lightened a little bit so that the whole package will still meet the weight requirements.

****I also want to point out that regarding the big scandal from a couple of years ago, it is not the fault of the person who owned, trained or showed the stallion that was half/saddlebred. They purchased that horse as a Morgan and had no knowledge that he was not Morgan.

The breeder was Bruce Ekstrom, he bred his Morgan stud to a saddlebred mare and fraudulently registered the get as Morgan. He was able to do so because the aged mare that he had listed as the dam, Chantilly Lace, had no registered offspring that had been tested, had deceased parents that could not be tested, and did not have any siblings or half siblings that had been tested. There were no DNA results on file so when he submitted the DNA of the saddlebred mare Summer Song PHF as being that of Chantilly Lace, there was no way to refute that it was not her sample. Thus all of the resulting get DNA tested as accurate. He would have gotten away with it also, except for a disgruntled employee who leaked out the information.

This particular offspring stallion, FCF Rhythm Nation was an incredible horse. I drooled over him many times. He sired some nice babies that sold for high dollar amounts, including some that were exported to other countries. I have had the pleasure of working with one of FCF Rhythm Nation's get, Accel Rhythm Dancer, who had his papers pulled before he made it into the ring. This gelding I worked with was absolutely breathtaking to look at and I had high hopes of getting him around the ring in pleasure driving....sigh, really too bad.

When the scandal broke, the owners of FCF Rhythm Nation took a huge financial hit. The partnership had to declare bankruptcy. They had so much invested in this stallion and their breeding program and everything just got shot down from underneath. The trainer ended up with "Nate" and he hung on to him for several years. A year or so ago, he contacted me and probably also other facilities to see if we wanted Nate, he was moving to another training facility up north. I do not know if he was able to find a home for the stud or if he still has him.

Bruce Eckstrom and his family have been "excommunicated" from the AMHA for fraudulent registration.

[CA ASB]

Originally posted by XHALT:
Tiffany B, sounds like you are one of the good ones.

Yes, and there are far more good ones than bad ones - just as with any discipline. What causes us to come out and explain practices is that *in general* there are blanket assumptions made. It becomes *all* SS horses move with exaggerated motion, or look at the horrid things that are done - not to a few, not even to some but to a *majority." Are the majority of jumpers poled? I would hope not and don't think so. To add to Tiffani's post, XHALT, the trotting breeds, such as Morgans aren't sored - so "bottles of chemicals" and "nails stuck in their feet" (other than to keep a shoe on) are just not part of the equation when coupled with "Morgans are so sweet and loving and would actually fight back."

Additionally, the use of fire extinguishers and firecrackers is well established for police horse and desensitization training. Why is it acceptable there, but if a SS trainer uses it in the same way (to have a horse be unafraid) it suddenly becomes abuse? Now that is turning an apple *into* an orange!

[khorsem]

Exactly... Here's my horse- look how unhappy he looks with his big cruel shoes... Really - please stop using horrendous examples to charicterize saddle seat horses - most don't do those things.

http://community.webshots.com/album/501621936qKNsLA

[FLAbreds]

Originally posted by CA ASB:

Additionally, the use of fire extinguishers and firecrackers is well established for police horse and desensitization training. Why is it acceptable there, but if a SS trainer uses it in the same way (to have a horse be unafraid) it suddenly becomes abuse? Now that is turning an apple *into* an orange!

I would assume people have a problem with it because there are some trainers out there that go beyond desensitizing a horse and overuse firecrackers, fire extinguishers, a can of hairspray and a lighter (seen that!) causing a "reaction" as opposed to a non-reaction, sometimes to the point that the horse spins and bolts off in the other direction (I've witnessed this several times). At least that was the case with my ASB at the training barn he lived at for 11 years before I purchased him. Poor thing will lather up with fright over any loud popping noises and try to get away from it anyway he can.

The point I'm trying to make is that if training devices and farrier work are done in moderation then I have no problem with it. But as in any breed or discipline you have the few that think more is better when in actuality they are doing their breed/discipline of choice a disservice.

BTW, love your posts, TiffanyB. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[beausgirl]

What one Saddle Seat breed does, certainly does not mean that they all do

You can't generalize about SS breed owners also. Padded horses are a VERY small percentage of TWH's. Do some sore? Yes. Do they all sore? no. The majority of TWH people, show people included, don't sore, have never sored, and will never sore. It is an abhorent practice that is taken very seriously by the TWH folks. Unfortunately, the media that writes up about soring knows absolutely nothing about the breed and showing practices and leaves Joe Schmoe public thinking it is common place. It is too bad that the sins of the few, fall on the majority.

[Tiffani B]

Not to argue with a fellow saddleseater, but bands are used on horses who overstride - NOT to keep on a shoe because of its weight. If you think of how centrifugal force works, it pushes the weight (the shoe) to the outside of the circle - which would be pushing it AGAINST the hoof, not pulling it away from the hoof. And again, our shoes only weigh a few more ounces than a normal shoe so the weight is not the issue behind bands.

We tend to leave the heels of the shoes long to help support the legs - compared to a regular shoe, that stops right at the end of the hoof or is turned up to prevent being stepped on. It's because of the overhanging heel that a hind toe can step on the shoe and tear it off.

A horse who does this frequently is a candidate for banding - however, it's not USUALLY a problem. The percentage of horses who need bands is very small. But, the damage they can do to their front feet and legs is HUGE. So allowing bands, IMHO, is not a detriment to the breed. If the Morgan rules pertaining to the shoe weight and hoof length are not changing, I do not see any negative side to this.

[Immortality]

Here is a link to the horse that I just sold, I can't say his shoeing ever hurt him.

http://community.webshots.com/album/221753394yeIqaS

Will post pics of my walking horse with his massive shoe http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif when I get home, and get it scanned.

[FLAbreds]

Originally posted by beausgirl:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">What one Saddle Seat breed does, certainly does not mean that they all do

You can't generalize about SS breed owners also. Padded horses are a VERY small percentage of TWH's. Do some sore? Yes. Do they all sore? no. The majority of TWH people, show people included, don't sore, have never sored, and will never sore. It is an abhorent practice that is taken very seriously by the TWH folks. Unfortunately, the media that writes up about soring knows absolutely nothing about the breed and showing practices and leaves Joe Schmoe public thinking it is common place. It is too bad that the sins of the few, fall on the majority. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some years ago I used to trail ride with a few really nice TWH folks that would only show in the flat shod classes, mostly because of the soring issues that go hand in hand with the breed. So it is true that there are TWH enthusiasts out there that find issue with the stacked pads and soring and are trying to stay far, far away from it.

[wiseman]

can't say
Amazing....absolutley Amazing....All these experts on shoing and training and none of them know squat http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

[Tiffani B]

My opinion on the use of earing up devices, whether it's a firecracker or a bag on the end of a whip is this...

A horse loves a challenge. They love to play games. A jumping horse has a jump to conquer. A cow horse has a cow to chase down. A race horse can chase other horses. Just what does a saddleseat horse have? Nothing...

By providing them an outlet for their competitive spirit, it's "them against the thing". And when they puff up their chest and march past, just DARING that thing to come get them, and it doesn't - they WIN! And their confidence builds to the point where they LOOK for things to challenge.

A young horse is first shown a bag on a whip or someone might toss a few shavings in front of him. The more "advanced" techniques do not appear until the horse has proven to be steady and forward-moving when faced with the smaller things. If he sucks in and heads off in reverse, we back off or stop. There's no point in terrifying our horses - we'd get hurt! And the horse who proves that he CANNOT accept the challenge does not make it as a show horse.

So when you see a saddleseat horse, all bug-eyed and pop-legged, that's not from fear, that's training. We teach them to anticipate a challenge, so they LOOK for it, wide-eyed with anticipation, heart pounding, trotting in place, just like the barrel horse or race horse gets all pumped up before the gun goes off. They are not afraid - if they were, they'd hightail it (no pun intended!) right out of there! For as I'm sure most of you know, you cannot force a horse to go past something he is genuinely afraid of, no matter what you do.

[horseguy]

It would seem to me that people who like that sort of thing wear black leather, carry whips when not riding and have websites that can be blocked by parental control software. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Joanne]

Years ago, I had friends who owned and showed American Saddlebreds. The horses had their tails nerved (is that the correct word?) and then had to wear tail sets. They also used ginger salve up the butt. Are these techniques still used? How are they achieving the high tail sets with the Morgans nowadays?

Just curious. The ginger salve thing always bothered me.

Edited: Cut the tail ligament?

[asb_own_me]

Looks like our multiple WGC CH Sky Watch is wearing plates in this photo:
WGC CH Sky Watch (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v186/asb_own_me/Other%20Horses/SkyWatch_training_1982.jpg)

[khorsem]

Ahhhhhhh - love that photo!

[asb_own_me]

Originally posted by Joanne:
Years ago, I had friends who owned and showed American Saddlebreds. The horses had their tails nerved (is that the correct word?)


No, nerved is what is done to QH so they can't wring their tails.

[FLAbreds]

Originally posted by asb_own_me:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Joanne:
Years ago, I had friends who owned and showed American Saddlebreds. The horses had their tails nerved (is that the correct word?)


No, nerved is what is done to QH so they can't wring their tails. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, but it's illegal according to the AQHA rulebook, even though there are still exhibitors and trainers out there doing it! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

[Tiffani B]

horseguy, my boyfriend would probably like it if that were the case, but not so...sorry, I'm pretty boring! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif

[Luvinfoofy]

Originally posted by asb_own_me:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Joanne:
Years ago, I had friends who owned and showed American Saddlebreds. The horses had their tails nerved (is that the correct word?)


No, nerved is what is done to QH so they can't wring their tails. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Honestly, that is another generalization. If I said soring is done to TWHs, without explicitly stating that -not all- TWHs are sored - I'd be jumped upon. There are plenty of QHs out there that will never have their tails blocked or nerved.

[YankeeASB]

Originally posted by asb_own_me:
Looks like our multiple WGC CH Sky Watch is wearing plates in this photo:
WGC CH Sky Watch (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v186/asb_own_me/Other%20Horses/SkyWatch_training_1982.jpg)

Isn't he the <span class="ev_code_RED">most beautiful thing</span> thing you've ever seen??? He still gives me goosebumps... two decades later... just thinking about him.

[Immortality]

Alot of Saddlebreds, and Walking Horses wear tailsets, but that doesn't mean that the tail was cut. Alot of people are getting away from tails being cut. Lots of horses that wear tailsets and you see with a set tail have never had anything done to their tail. Most of the horses we have now just wear their tailset.

[harli36]

I haven't read the whole thread but I would like to say that the Morgan breed is VERY near and dear to my heart.

It is a great breed that is being ruined by a registry that doesn't have the guts to stand up to the standard/well being of the animal when a little bit of $$$ is involved.

I totally agree with the orginal poster. I love Morgans and I love Saddlebreed's but they are two different breeds that should look different. If you are breeding Morgan's but you want a 'leaner' version of the breed then you should go breed a different breed.

And to the original post. How those pads and such aren't abuse I have no idea. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif I'm all for saddleseat event's but are the pads, and clamps really necessary?

[mrd]

Thank you Tiffani B for your well written repsonses.

How many of you (non-SS folks)turn your horses out with bell boots on? Why? So they don't overreach while playing and pull a shoe or hurt themselves. Right?

Our gaited horses have a little longer trailer on their front shoes and sometimes have heel caulks. The shoes are not heavier - just a little different and make it easier to step on. Have you ever had your hunter's shoes set back a little to help with the breakover?

How many eventers use glue on shoes because they can't keep shoes on while competing? Should all those horses that can't keep shoes on take a break from competition? How about those horses that have to use bar shoes, or any other corrective shoeing and get shots in their joints to compete - should they stop competing? Who would be left?

I'm certainly not condoning poor horse management, but it's gotten out of hand here.
The original post way back was about bands being approved for Morgans and the rule change going to USEF.

[Amwrider]

Originally posted by Tiffani B:
Not to argue with a fellow saddleseater, but bands are used on horses who overstride - NOT to keep on a shoe because of its weight. If you think of how centrifugal force works, it pushes the weight (the shoe) to the outside of the circle - which would be pushing it AGAINST the hoof, not pulling it away from the hoof.

I differ with you there, go back to your bucket with water, what stablilzes the bucket? The water is trying to pull away from the force and the bucket is what is containing it.

Gravitational and centrifugal forces would have a pulling effect as the hoof leaves the ground and starts with the circular arc. How many times have you seen a big trotting or racking horse toss a shoe and flip it a good 20 feet in the process?

The bands would just help support the heel of the shoe and would help keep clinches from failing.

Not every horse needs it. At the barn where I trained, there was only one or two Morgans that I wish we could have shown in bands. We usually kept them on at home and then took them off before going to the show since we could not show in them.

[Amwrider]

Originally posted by asb_own_me:
Looks like our multiple WGC CH Sky Watch is wearing plates in this photo:
WGC CH Sky Watch (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v186/asb_own_me/Other%20Horses/SkyWatch_training_1982.jpg)

I love that photo also. THAT was a HORSE! I remember seeing a video by ASHA many years ago where they had interviewed trainers of the great horses. They interviewed Mitch Clark and If I remember correctly CH Skywatch showed with an 18 or 20 ounce shoe.

The good ones do go light as far as shoeing goes.

[Tiffani B]

The water is the shoe and the bottom of the bucket is the hoof. The water presses against the bottom of the bucket - obviously, or it would spill out while upside down.

The movement of the hoof and leg keep the shoe on. Now, if we're talking about a poorly attached shoe, or a horse in desperate need of a reset, or a horse who may have overstrided and LOOSENED a clinch or two the step before, YES - the shoe can come flying off without help from the hind foot.

However, the first two issues are horse management problems. The last issue, a loose shoe, IS the reason for bands. But it's due to the overstride that the shoe came loose in the first place, necessitating bands.

The reason it goes flying 20 feet is because it comes off or loosens in just one area (not all nails become equally loose at the same time), thus changing the weight of how the shoe lies on the foot, creating a disturbance in the movement of the leg - the circle is no longer correct - and the shoe leaves the underside of the hoof when the hoof turns - thus giving the shoe the ability to slide off and be flung away.

A shoe, put on properly and properly maintained, will NEVER come off on its own.

So no, bands are not needed to keep the shoe on because of its weight. The weight is not the inherant cause of losing a shoe. Bands are needed to keep the shoe on in case it's loosened by an overstride.

Can a horse in a keg shoe with no pads do the same thing? You bet. And the shoe will fly 20 feet, just like a weighted shoe. The only difference is, the nails on a keg shoe are not extra-long, and when the shoe pulls off it doesn't take half the hoof with it. So we have more of an incentive to use bands (to keep the hoof intact), although they may be beneficial to all horses who have this problem regardless of discipline.

[xemasabini]

Originally posted by harli36:
And to the original post. How those pads and such aren't abuse I have no idea. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif I'm all for saddleseat event's but are the pads, and clamps really necessary?

Go back and really look at those photos. The one hoof has clearly been damaged (hoof wall lost), so there is not much there to nail a shoe on to. The extra padding is to match the lenght of hoof to the undamaged one, which I hope you noticed has a small leather pad.

As it happens, the horse who is the "model" in those pictures wore the bands until the damaged hoof grew back out, and is now wearing shoes with no bands and no problems.

Use of bands on that horse was simply to be able to keep him in training - not to put excessive weight on his feet.

Bands are a tool that may or may not be needed by any individual horse.

As has already been noted, less is frequently more - many Morgans are wearing less weight now than in the past. Better understanding of the correct action (fluid, not labored, and with the hoof taking an elliptical flight path) and how shoeing affects that action has led to less weight on the hoof, and more of a platform to support the take off (the previously mentioned extended heels on the shoe). It is rare to see a horse laboring with too much weight.

Tiffani B - lovely mare you have!

[Tiffani B]

And thank you to everyone who has complimented me on my mare. I love her to pieces and she's an absolute joy to own.

[Amwrider]

Originally posted by Tiffani B:
The water is the shoe and the bottom of the bucket is the hoof. The water presses against the bottom of the bucket - obviously, or it would spill out while upside down.
and be flung away.

Centripital force would push the shoe to the hoof, this is centrifugal force I am talking about.

Put a ball on a string and swing it around. Centrifugal force is what is pulling the ball away from you. If the string breaks, the ball will go flying off because of centrifugal force.

When you are on a tilt-a-whirl ride at a carnival(or the teacup ride at Disney),
http://www.ride-extravaganza.com/rides/tilt-a-whirl/tilt_04.jpg
you are in a "bucket" being spun around. Gravity pulls to to the bucket. You have the little doo-hicky to hang on to with your hands also (and to make yourself spin faster!).

What would happen if you didn't have the bucket around you and just had to rely on your hands on the doo-hicky thing to stay on the ride? You would still be pulled away from the center by centrifugal force and would have to hang on for all that is holy in order to not go flying off the ride.

Think of your arms as nail clinches, you are the shoe. The bucket on the ride is the band that helps you stay on the ride!

[Tiffani B]

I completely understand your analogy, but that would be saying the shoe is held on by the leg. There is something ABOVE the shoe preventing it from flying off - the hoof. Just like the seat of the tiltawhirl keeps you in place, the hoof keeps the shoe in place for the most part. Remove the seat, and yes, all you have to hang on with are your arms, which will wear out and eventually you'll go flying. But bands are not what keep the shoes on - the nails do. Or we wouldn't even use nails, all shoes would just be banded on.

If you remove the hoof as the stabilizing force, then yes, the shoe goes flying off. The only way to take the hoof out of the picture is for the shoe to no longer be centered over the hoof - an action that takes place when the shoe is pulled by the hind foot.

So we are, in a way, both trying to say the same thing. Your viewpoint is from the point at which the shoe is loosened or becomes wobbly. My viewpoint is from before that happens. Either way, we both mean the same thing. Yes, the shoe will go flying if there is nothing to hold it on anymore.

[Ghazzu]

Originally posted by Tiffani B:
I completely understand your analogy, but that would be saying the shoe is held on by the leg. There is something ABOVE the shoe preventing it from flying off - the hoof. Just like the seat of the tiltawhirl keeps you in place, the hoof keeps the shoe in place for the most part. Remove the seat, and yes, all you have to hang on with are your arms, which will wear out and eventually you'll go flying. But bands are not what keep the shoes on - the nails do. Or we wouldn't even use nails, all shoes would just be banded on.

If you remove the hoof as the stabilizing force, then yes, the shoe goes flying off. The only way to take the hoof out of the picture is for the shoe to no longer be centered over the hoof - an action that takes place when the shoe is pulled by the hind foot.

So we are, in a way, both trying to say the same thing. Your viewpoint is from the point at which the shoe is loosened or becomes wobbly. My viewpoint is from before that happens. Either way, we both mean the same thing. Yes, the shoe will go flying if there is nothing to hold it on anymore.

A farrier acquaintance of mine has witnessed the unholy sight of a package, including the hoof capsule, flying off the foot of a Big Lick TWH and, as he put it, "landing in the lap of a spectator", though I think that last bit is hyperbole.
But he weren't kidding about the hoof capsule.

I will add here that I have known a lot of ASBs who are shod longer and heavier than I care to even consider for a horse who remain sound and show for *years*.

They are wonderful horses, as a breed, and a blast to ride.

[Cella]

Originally posted by Ghazzu:
A farrier acquaintance of mine has witnessed the unholy sight of a package, including the hoof capsule, flying off the foot of a Big Lick TWH and, as he put it, "landing in the lap of a spectator", though I think that last bit is hyperbole.
But he weren't kidding about the hoof capsule.


Off topic but related to your story.
I witnessed an ASB throw a shoe in a muddy ring years ago. The shoe flew in the air and landed on the head of a box seat spectator. She had to be rushed to the hospital.

[sleepdeprived]

Guys if you think all the 'good' ASBs wear light shoes then you must not spend a lot of time on the rail. There are plenty of big time ASB show horses with seriously padded and heavy shoes AND with a toe full of lead to boot and too much reliance on that, among other things imho. Of course the bands are used to keep those heavy suckers on. I love saddlebreds dearly but the PR problem the breed has exists for a lot of reasons and the constant rationalizations I hear just makes me http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif.

Not that factions of other breeds are any more ethical as I have learned from my fellow COTHERS http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. The problem with saddlebred show horses imho, fwiw, is that it's small world and there's a good number of trainers still stuck in the dark ages and good at convincing customers that what they do is perfectly ethical, good for the horse, what everyone does, etc, etc. That is, if the customer actually *knows* what the trainer is doing to their horse (witness what happened to Wild Eyed & Wicked). There's more to life than chasing the other brown horses round and round a ring and getting a silly ribbon (except for a bona fide ribbon whore of course http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ), getting your silly picture in one of the vanity magazines, and having a lame horse with a shortened life expectancy as a result.

Yay! post number 999!

[chai]

I have to be honest, and I have my flame retardent suit ready. But I do not like those shoes at all. They look like something Herman Munster would wear. I grew up on Morgans and they have such wonderful, sturdy feet and such nice movement without artificial interference. It seems a shame to strap on all that extra hardware to make the horse move a way some humans think they should. I wouldn't want to wear heavy platform shoes 24/7 and I don't think horses should either.

[JackandMo]

Originally posted by queasy:
Guys if you think all the 'good' ASBs wear light shoes then you must not spend a lot of time on the rail. There are plenty of big time ASB show horses with seriously padded and heavy shoes AND with a toe full of lead to boot and too much reliance on that, among other things imho. Of course the bands are used to keep those heavy suckers on. I love saddlebreds dearly but the PR problem the breed has exists for a lot of reasons and the constant rationalizations I hear just makes me http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif.

Not that factions of other breeds are any more ethical as I have learned from my fellow COTHERS http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. The problem with saddlebred show horses imho, fwiw, is that it's small world and there's a good number of trainers still stuck in the dark ages and good at convincing customers that what they do is perfectly ethical, good for the horse, what everyone does, etc, etc. That is, if the customer actually *knows* what the trainer is doing to their horse (witness what happened to Wild Eyed & Wicked). There's more to life than chasing the other brown horses round and round a ring and getting a silly ribbon (except for a bona fide ribbon whore of course http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ), getting your silly picture in one of the vanity magazines, and having a lame horse with a shortened life expectancy as a result.

Yay! post number 999!

Could you please provide a list of the Saddlebred show horses you've personally trained, owned, and ridden? I'd also like a tab of the shows that you've attended, and your exact position "on the rail."

There's also more to life than chasing and penning cows, jumping over silly jumps (very boring, IMO) or piaffing around in a square arena.

We each do with our horses what WE enjoy - don't knock what others do just because it's not YOUR cup of tea.

As for the WE&W comment, something to wish to share, since you're insinuating?

Edited to add: You sound disgruntled that you didn't get your silly picture in a silly magazine. Shame, really.

[Luvinfoofy]

Originally posted by JackandMo:
There's also more to life than chasing and penning cows, jumping over silly jumps (very boring, IMO) or piaffing around in a square arena.

We each do with our horses what WE enjoy - don't knock what others do just because it's not YOUR cup of tea.


http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

That is one of the most hypocritical posts I've read here in years.

[greysandbays]

Originally posted by chai:
I have to be honest, and I have my flame retardent suit ready. But I do not like those shoes at all. They look like something Herman Munster would wear. I grew up on Morgans and they have such wonderful, sturdy feet and such nice movement without artificial interference. It seems a shame to strap on all that extra hardware to make the horse move a way some humans think they should. I wouldn't want to wear heavy platform shoes 24/7 and I don't think horses should either.

I agree. Anybody that thinks these shoe "packages" tacked on the end of a hoof that looks a year overgrown are a "good thing" should have to wear the biggest, bulkiest platform shoe on the market while running up and down a flight of stairs about fifty times -- just because the guy standing at the bottom of the stairs likes the way it makes the butt and the boobs bounce.

I don't have a problem with a bit of weight to keep the foot traveling straight (although I'd rather the horses be BRED to travel straight than SHOD to travel straight), and I don't have a problem with a thin pad to avoid bruising, and I don't even have a problem with using a band to help keep the shoe on if necessary. But there's something evil about a hoof/show package that is almost as long as the horse's cannon bone! Just like there is with pointy toed women's shoes with 6" heels.

We aren't swinging buckets with a little water in them over our heads here (which, BTW, is only "effortless" when it's a REALLY LITTLE bucket, like an ice cream pail, not a 5 gallon water bucket) -- some of these are big drums filled to the brim.

I also think that the saddleseat industry has decided it really likes the "labored" look and no longer even recognizes it as "labored". Just like the stock breeds western pleasure industry has decided it likes the "dead horse walking" look and sees nothing ugly about it at all.

[beausgirl]

The problem with saddlebred show horses imho, fwiw, is that it's small world and there's a good number of trainers still stuck in the dark ages and good at convincing customers that what they do is perfectly ethical, good for the horse, what everyone does, etc, etc. That is, if the customer actually *knows* what the trainer is doing to their horse (witness what happened to Wild Eyed & Wicked). There's more to life than chasing the other brown horses round and round a ring and getting a silly ribbon (except for a bona fide ribbon whore of course ), getting your silly picture in one of the vanity magazines, and having a lame horse with a shortened life expectancy as a result.

Amen sister!!!

[RHdobes]

Amwrider, 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder.' I picked up some old issues of THE MORGAN HORSE that had pictures of FCF Rhythm Nation as a weaning and an adult stallion. I thought (and still think) him one of the homeliest horses I have ever seen. Doubtless, however, they were breeding less for "looks" than "action."

When I showed my father a picture of the "new" Morgan show horse and some pictures from the older magazines, my father said (and I'm quoting him exactly), "It doesn't look like the same breed."

He knows next to zilch about horse breeds.

What makes me truly physically ill (and this is the truth, I feel like running to the bathroom and throwing up), is the fact that some people within a breed (and it is NOT just Morgan people/breeders) that feeling mixing breeds and calling it "pure" for their OWN PERSONAL GAIN (financial or fame) is justified. And I can hear it now, "The Morgan horse was developed using Saddlebred, Hackney, etc.---we're just adding a little more "needed" blood of the same type. And after a few more years and generations, it will be absorbed."

Breed for a type using the (purebred) horses you have. I DON'T like the new "show" Morgans. I started subscribing to The Morgan Horse and The International Morgan Connection after deciding I wanted (another) Morgan after my old Morgan mare died. If the new show Morgan was all that there was, I would NEVER get another Morgan horse.

But someone told me about the SIMPLY MORGAN magazine, and with the first issue, I saw the type of Morgan horse that made me weep with joy. Cobby, thick necked, heavy and wavy made and tail and just-all-around-usable-and-fun. My purebred mare never had her papers transferred with her when sold, but I could pick out all her aunts, uncles, and cousins with one look. (Beamington, the "Cobras", Flyhawk, Jubilee King, Senator Graham...)

I am SO thankful that the "old" type of Morgans still exist. I don't care if people prefer the showier type of Morgan. What I DON'T want is the ruination of a breed by turning a blind eye to the impure breeding that's been done or being done.

Like others, if people wanted a showier horse, why DIDN'T they get involved with Saddlebreds, Hackney Horses, Dutch Carriage Horses, etc.?

I'm not going to get into the shoeing discussion at all. I rode my Morgan hunter for the longest time with front shoes only. I only switched her to shoes all round when I started boarding at a place where you had to ride down gravel roads to reach the trails.

Well, thanks all for letting me rant. Like I said, 'Find the type of Morgan you like but DON'T compromise the breed in order to do so.'

[MsM]

I am a Morgan owner and have boarded at Morgan and Arab/Saddlebred barns.
The only good thing I see about the direction of "show" Morgans is that it keeps the prices of the more "old-fashioned" Morgans more affordable for folks like us! I love the personality of the breed, but have pretty much given up on the association and shows.
IMO, the push for bands would not be a problem except that it might allow more cheating. You see, IIRC, the only way the weight limits are enforced is if a horse throws a shoe in the ring. So up until now, the temptation to pack more weight has been counterbalanced by the fear of it flying off in the ring and getting weighed. If you can use bands, you have a better chance of keeping your "little secret".
Ironic thing is, I could not show my Morgan in most Morgan Show classes. I keep him in bar shoes because of past issues. Those shoes are illegal in most classes! I could stuff ginger up his backside and weight his feet, but not use bar shoes! Bizzare.
I have seen several well-respected trainers use "animation techniques" including fire extinguishers. Unfortunately in my experience, they were not used to interest the horses but to provoke just the right amount of fear. Horse was pulled out of stall and tacked up. As he went by people ran at him tossing shaker cans or waving whips until he moved in what appeared to me to be a more frantic manner (the trainers seemed to like it) Horses often were sweaty and snorting and trying to avoid the problem area. As the horse became used to this, they moved on to other techniques like suddenly spraying the fire extinguisher. After a short time, the horse was untacked, a cooler thrown over and put back in his stall. I never saw a horse physically damaged and many were calm on the ground, but they seemed totally nerved up and tense when under saddle (which seemed to be the desired result...)
Strange how we have such extremes in the horse world. From barely moving western pleasure, to "animated" Park and all the variations.

[sleepdeprived]

Originally posted by JackandMo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by queasy:
Guys if you think all the 'good' ASBs wear light shoes then you must not spend a lot of time on the rail. There are plenty of big time ASB show horses with seriously padded and heavy shoes AND with a toe full of lead to boot and too much reliance on that, among other things imho. Of course the bands are used to keep those heavy suckers on. I love saddlebreds dearly but the PR problem the breed has exists for a lot of reasons and the constant rationalizations I hear just makes me http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif.

Not that factions of other breeds are any more ethical as I have learned from my fellow COTHERS http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. The problem with saddlebred show horses imho, fwiw, is that it's small world and there's a good number of trainers still stuck in the dark ages and good at convincing customers that what they do is perfectly ethical, good for the horse, what everyone does, etc, etc. That is, if the customer actually *knows* what the trainer is doing to their horse (witness what happened to Wild Eyed & Wicked). There's more to life than chasing the other brown horses round and round a ring and getting a silly ribbon (except for a bona fide ribbon whore of course http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ), getting your silly picture in one of the vanity magazines, and having a lame horse with a shortened life expectancy as a result.

Yay! post number 999!

Could you please provide a list of the Saddlebred show horses you've personally trained, owned, and ridden? I'd also like a tab of the shows that you've attended, and your exact position "on the rail."

There's also more to life than chasing and penning cows, jumping over silly jumps (very boring, IMO) or piaffing around in a square arena.

We each do with our horses what WE enjoy - don't knock what others do just because it's not YOUR cup of tea.

As for the WE&W comment, something to wish to share, since you're insinuating?

Edited to add: You sound disgruntled that you didn't get your silly picture in a silly magazine. Shame, really. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually saddlbreds are my cup of tea and that's why I hate to see them used and abused just like I hate to see any animal mistreated. Not disgruntled at all and my show record is none-a-yurs lady but since you're so curious about me you should know that I hang out so close to the rail that I am usually holding it up and have one arm in the arena with a cattle prod to zap my trainer's horse as it goes by. If there are a lot of people about I will just make a low 'buzz, buzz, buzz' noise which can work if you have trained your horse right and proper.

And I actually need a body guard most of the time at the A-list shows to keep the paparazzi from the mags at bay. There is usually a hand in front of my face or a show program shielding my head from the onslaught of flashbulbs, which may be why you would never recognize me. My horses are multiple WGCs and since you asked, I am actually capable of training them myself but I prefer to keep my amateur status and just show in the open classes with trainers when it suits me. Usually I win.

Edited to add: Greysandbays, agree with so much of your post. I don't mind reasonable pads and a little weight or a band per se. It's the extreme and the fly wheel look of moving that looks almost vulgar to me. And ditto on the dead horse walking quarterhorse look.

[JackandMo]

Originally posted by Luvinfoofy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JackandMo:
There's also more to life than chasing and penning cows, jumping over silly jumps (very boring, IMO) or piaffing around in a square arena.

We each do with our horses what WE enjoy - don't knock what others do just because it's not YOUR cup of tea.


http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

That is one of the most hypocritical posts I've read here in years. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hypocritical why? Because I find it "boring" to watch a horse go around a course jumping? Just because *I* choose not to partake in this discipline, does not mean in any way that I knock others for doing it. I enjoy and appreciate a well turned out horse in any discipline, including jumping. I just choose not to watch it. Doesn't make my comment hypocritical at all, and if you consider this a bad post, I take it you have not read much here.

With that being said, I have never attempted jumping.

[JackandMo]

Originally posted by queasy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JackandMo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by queasy:
Guys if you think all the 'good' ASBs wear light shoes then you must not spend a lot of time on the rail. There are plenty of big time ASB show horses with seriously padded and heavy shoes AND with a toe full of lead to boot and too much reliance on that, among other things imho. Of course the bands are used to keep those heavy suckers on. I love saddlebreds dearly but the PR problem the breed has exists for a lot of reasons and the constant rationalizations I hear just makes me http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif.

Not that factions of other breeds are any more ethical as I have learned from my fellow COTHERS http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. The problem with saddlebred show horses imho, fwiw, is that it's small world and there's a good number of trainers still stuck in the dark ages and good at convincing customers that what they do is perfectly ethical, good for the horse, what everyone does, etc, etc. That is, if the customer actually *knows* what the trainer is doing to their horse (witness what happened to Wild Eyed & Wicked). There's more to life than chasing the other brown horses round and round a ring and getting a silly ribbon (except for a bona fide ribbon whore of course http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ), getting your silly picture in one of the vanity magazines, and having a lame horse with a shortened life expectancy as a result.

Yay! post number 999!

Could you please provide a list of the Saddlebred show horses you've personally trained, owned, and ridden? I'd also like a tab of the shows that you've attended, and your exact position "on the rail."

There's also more to life than chasing and penning cows, jumping over silly jumps (very boring, IMO) or piaffing around in a square arena.

We each do with our horses what WE enjoy - don't knock what others do just because it's not YOUR cup of tea.

As for the WE&W comment, something to wish to share, since you're insinuating?

Edited to add: You sound disgruntled that you didn't get your silly picture in a silly magazine. Shame, really. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually saddlbreds are my cup of tea and that's why I hate to see them used and abused just like I hate to see any animal mistreated. Not disgruntled at all and my show record is none-a-yurs lady but since you're so curious about me you should know that I hang out so close to the rail that I am usually holding it up and have one arm in the arena with a cattle prod to zap my trainer's horse as it goes by. If there are a lot of people about I will just make a low 'buzz, buzz, buzz' noise which can work if you have trained your horse right and proper.

And I actually need a body guard most of the time at the A-list shows to keep the paparazzi from the mags at bay. There is usually a hand in front of my face or a show program shielding my head from the onslaught of flashbulbs, which may be why you would never recognize me. My horses are multiple WGCs and since you asked, I am actually capable of training them myself but I prefer to keep my amateur status and just show in the open classes with trainers when it suits me. Usually I win.

Edited to add: Greysandbays, agree with so much of your post. I don't mind reasonable pads and a little weight or a band per se. It's the extreme and the fly wheel look of moving that looks almost vulgar to me. And ditto on the dead horse walking quarterhorse look. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You hate to see Saddlebreds used and abused, yet you hang on the rail with a cattle prod?

[badlove]

Enough already. If you have a personal stab to take at each other, do it through a personal message.

To get back to the original topic and to give my own opinion, I think it the rule change would obviously disregard a lot of the credibility the breed as gained with the "general public" by instilling their shoeing restrictions...and this is truely evident by the discussion on this board. The poster who mentioned it could possibily make it "easier to cheat" brings up a very valid point.

[sleepdeprived]

Originally posted by JackandMo:
<snip>You hate to see Saddlebreds used and abused, yet you hang on the rail with a cattle prod?

Gosh yes, all the time. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[emmy1]

Hi im new to this board but i would like to put in my two cents. First of all I love both the saddlebred and morgan breeds (learned to ride on both), but i hate to see the two intermingle so closely. I think that morgans should continue to have morgan like qualities and saddlebreds with theirs. If you take a look in a morgan magazine today and compare it to one years ago you can see a noticable difference in the confirmation of the horses. It seems morgan breeders today are going for the saddlebred look (which is gorgeous) but i still love that old blood kind of morgan.
Second of all I really have to say that I'm not partial to putting heavy pads on a horse. Personally I don't think that the heavier the shoe the prettier the motion becomes. I'm not against pads ( i had to put a very light leather medicinal pad on my saddlebred mare) and i know that if used correctly pads can help a horse's motion, but I know that the use of heavy pads is detrimental to the horse's health. I wish that morgans and saddlebreds associations would make some sort of weight limit for shoes. I truly feel that this is the step that both associations should strongly consider.
One other thing i want to point out is thatTWH's and saddlebreds are COMPLETELY different. From the ASB shows that i have been to no ASB has ever had that much pad on their feet.
I really wish that more people would recognize how great the morgan and saddlebred breeds are. My dressage instructor 9 iride both saddleseat and dressage) has jsut taken on a saddlebred and she's amazed at what an intelligent and talented horse he is.

[Luvinfoofy]

Originally posted by queasy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JackandMo:
<snip>You hate to see Saddlebreds used and abused, yet you hang on the rail with a cattle prod?

Gosh yes, all the time. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[asb_own_me]

Originally posted by queasy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JackandMo:
<snip>You hate to see Saddlebreds used and abused, yet you hang on the rail with a cattle prod?

Gosh yes, all the time. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you're terrible http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[YoungFilly]

Did anyone notice the "High Performance" horses were Fresians?!!!!????? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif They do *not* naturally move like that. Check out the Iron Spring Farm (http://www.ironspringfarm.com/horses/roster.php?section=friesians&sunid=7) Fresians to see the ones that move the way they are naturally supposed to.

To the OP, I am a member (as most of us probably are) of USEF. Here are the people who can help:

David O'Conner
President of USEF
doconner@usef.org

Dr. Samuel J Barish
Vice President, USEF
President, USDF
President@usdf.org

John Long
Chief Executive Officer, USEF
jlong@usef.org

Julie Goodman
General Council, USEF
jgoodman@usef.org

Good Luck! And I think you will get good responses. Of course, they might not be what you want to hear, but I would guess with the people involved, you are going to get a really thoughtfull response. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[FLAbreds]

I know this question is a tad off topic but what exactly is the Renai Horse Registry? I did a search to find a pic of FCF Rhythm Nation and his name popped up as a foundation stallion for this particular registry.

[CA ASB]

Ever heard of the National Show Horse? The creator of that registry and the marketing machine behind it that made initial "investors" (breeders) pots of $$s. The NSH was basically a 1/2 Arab, 1/2 Saddlebred.

The Renai registry? Another masterpiece from the same guy - this time 1/2 ASB, 1/2 something else - usually Dutch Harness Horse. It's in the early stages of development, but I'd bet that he'll put his marketing muscle behind the Renai as well.

[vtdobes]

The Renai Registry is, I believe, a performance horse registry. They do not have to be 1/2 anything but they do have to be approved. I'm glad someone finally cleared the air about what really happened with RN (saddlebred mare substituted for Morgan) and the fact that the original hoof photos were from a horse that had a damaged foot. I own/raise Morgans and I do NOT support the issue of bands and/or turnbuckles and have voiced my opinion to my BOD.

[buryinghill1]

totally off topic
My only complaint about the "old type" Morgans is they have the toughest necks in the world. Like a chunk of granite http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
When I had to jab mine in the neck (penicillin, whatever...) the needles would bend http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif
I'd rather have the old type than the ASB type, but damn they have thick necks! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif
Justin is rolling over in his grave http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[khorsem]

Originally posted by CA ASB:
Ever heard of the National Show Horse? The creator of that registry and the marketing machine behind it that made initial "investors" (breeders) pots of $$s. The NSH was basically a 1/2 Arab, 1/2 Saddlebred.

The Renai registry? Another masterpiece from the same guy - this time 1/2 ASB, 1/2 something else - usually Dutch Harness Horse. It's in the early stages of development, but I'd bet that he'll put his marketing muscle behind the Renai as well.

Renai is ANY trotting breed, pure or mixed in any percentage -

[buryinghill1]

Originally posted by vtdobes:
The Renai Registry is, I believe, a performance horse registry.
http://www.renaihorseregistry.com

[Amwrider]

Yes, the Renai horse registry is for crosses that mainly involve Saddlebreds, Arabians, Morgans and Dutch Harness horses.

FLAbreds, I would have to go through older back issues of the Morgan Connection to find photos of Rhythm Nation. He was black with more of a Morgan-y body with a long neck. He was a lovely mover and Richard Boule absolutely adored that horse.

RHdobes, I appreciate a good horse no matter what breed, and I also love the classic type Morgan. My 4 favorites at my former training position, 3 of them were "classic" horses. One, a hunter, was by PJM Preferability and if anyone made a modern Justin Morgan movie, this little horse would have been the star. He was a very cobby looking dark bay with a wavy and thick mane and tail. I bought him from Richard Boule for some customers.

[FLAbreds]

Originally posted by CA ASB:
Ever heard of the National Show Horse? The creator of that registry and the marketing machine behind it that made initial "investors" (breeders) pots of $$s. The NSH was basically a 1/2 Arab, 1/2 Saddlebred.

The Renai registry? Another masterpiece from the same guy - this time 1/2 ASB, 1/2 something else - usually Dutch Harness Horse. It's in the early stages of development, but I'd bet that he'll put his marketing muscle behind the Renai as well.

Yes, I've heard of the National Show Horse. I peeked at the Renai site again and read the handbook. Was hoping I could read some rules and regs for the registry but there were none. Does anyone know if this registry is governed by the USEF or will they have their own set of rules and regs like the AQHA, APHA, etc.?

Ok, and one more question that's off topic (maybe I should start another topic!), but aren't Dutch Harness Horses 1/2 ASB or are they are a breed unto themselves?

[khorsem]

DHH are a breed into themselves kind of- they are not a closed bloodline registry, so there is a lot of Saddlebred blood and hackney blood in the mix. In the Netherlands, no matter what the blood origin, they have to go through a keuring to become approved, then their offspring have to be approved DHH through the same process for those (original) horses to be approved breeding horses- Here in the states, it seems that breeding DHH x DHH will = DHH, though, from what I've seen.

Here's a link to some more info:
http://www.ablackhorse.com/forums/index.php?s=7be5c6aa9...3f82e&showtopic=1775 (http://www.ablackhorse.com/forums/index.php?s=7be5c6aa9d330f7ed96c4d341653f82e&showtopic=1775)

[TrotSquare]

I guess I joined this a little late.

I love the look of the heavier type morgans, the more refined look just doesn't have enough substance for me. The look like saddlebred ponies (and I would rather have a full sized saddlebred thank you!). If I'm buying a morgan I want a morgan - thick neck and all.

If the shoeing regulations aren't going to change I don't think it matters much if bands are allowed or not. Just less time out at shows for lost shoes.

[sleepdeprived]

Don't know if this has been discussed yet but isn't the reason modern Morgans have a more refined 'saddlebred' look is because there was some ASB blood what got into them a decade or so ago? I seem to remember some discussion of this a while ago as well as some stories I'd heard. Or maybe everyone already knows that and I'm just ADD/daft?

[CA ASB]

yep, it was discussed a few pages back. Maybe you need to use the cattle prod on yourself to remind/motivate you to read all the pages ... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[hitchinmygetalong]

Yes Queasy, there have been infusions of Saddlebred blood over the years, most notably through Upwey King Peavine, the grandsire of the great Upwey Ben Don.

http://www.welcomeranch.com/peavine.html

There are, however, some very strong family lines with ZERO Saddlebred influence. Some good reading for a cold winter night:

http://www.sportmorgan.com/families/

Both these sites are very interesting reading.

[sleepdeprived]

Originally posted by CA ASB:
yep, it was discussed a few pages back. Maybe you need to use the cattle prod on yourself to remind/motivate you to read all the pages ... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I use it so much I ran out of batteries. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

PS-- thanks so much Hitch. it is one cold winter night tonight in fact. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[emmy1]

I have to say buryinghill1 that it's true those classic morgans sure are hard as a rock. We had a morgan that needed penicillin shots and when my father (a doc) tried to give it to him it bent the needle! Poor little guy.

[clipclopdeaf]

I knew most all of you never visit Saddle Seat people at horse shows (Arabian, Morgan, Saddlebred and TWH, and some other breeds). That pads are not heavy, just plastic something, depend on some weight, helping horse lift up shoe high stepping.
Well same thing hunter/show jumper has stud on shoe, I understand that stud help horse won't slip or help jumping over fence, sometimes horse's hoof or hooves bump the poles, how many fences, (about 20 to 30 fences) horse jump over the fences around one time, if tie, then go again and again.
Well, all high stepping and jumping are same thing, huh.
Also jumping is danger, too what make different than ride saddle seat flat.

Next spring, why not you go visiting Saddle Seat people at horse shows, ask them, they will show you that would be nice, okay

[Timex]

huh? not understanding what you're trying to say. could you rephrase? and for what it's worth, a jumper course is going to consist of roughly 12-15 fences. and a jump-off would be a shortened version of the original course, roughly 6-8 fences. obviously, that would vary from show to show, byt no jumper is going to balst around a 20 fence course over and over, that's just not how it's done.

[Albion]

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

Studs "enhance" performance in the sense that they help the horse with traction. They don't enhance a horse's performance over fences. They just help ensure a horse probably isn't going to wipe out around a corner or something.

How that is analogous to weighted pads and the like is beyond me. Perhaps a better comparison would be weighted boots, which are illegal in competition.

[Sandy M]

CAL ASB: The NSH thing always seemed a bit weird to me. I had a friend who owned an ASB/Arab cross back in the '60s before it existed as a "breed" and it was a nice horse - an eventer - tended more to the Arab side of the breed than the ASB - but whatever.

Still, the motivations for the creation of the NSH have always seemed murky to me: If you want a "bigger" ASB type trot to show Park/Saddleseat - then buy an ASB.

Okay, so maybe part of the idea was something bigger, since some of the loveliest Arabs can be on the small side for a tall rider. I guess that's something of an argument for it. BUT... usually when Arabians are crossed on something - be it, Morgan (Morab), TB (Anglo-Arab) or Appy (Araloosa), the general consensus is that one is using the Arabian to "refine" or "improve" the other breed. To me, NSH is sort of a face slap to the Arabian: "They don't trot BIG enough or aren't TALL enough, so we're going to IMPROVE those Arabs by crossing with ASB."

Always seemed kinda funny to me. I learned to ride saddleseat originally and love ASBs as a breed, but not to ride as "gaited" horses in those awful park saddles. I also worked for an Arab breeder along the way, and thus, through various Arab magazines met the NSH. I went from saddle seat to hunt seat to eventing to dressage and picked up a love for Appies along the way, but the idea of "improving" Arabians with ASB sort of eludes me.

[Tiffani B]

Those studs weigh about the same as one pad...I think that was the point Karen was trying to make. I believe she was also pointing out that jumping is very hard on a horse and can cause injury to them, much more easily than picking their feet up and wearing show shoes can, and wearing show shoes is not nearly as much work as jumping a course at speed. Sorry Karen if I misinterpreted you!

Karen is deaf and her word choices are not necessarily the same that a hearing person would use - if you read carefully you can easily understand her.

I will invite anyone on this forum to come visit me and my horse at any of the shows we hit next summer in the WI and IL areas. I will be more than happy to show you her shoes, work her for you, and answer any questions you might have about our breed and style of riding and training. Only requirement - that you come with an inquisitive mind and true desire to LEARN. Please email me privately for show dates and locations.

[Sandy M]

I would tend to think that while jumping is undeniably stressful on horses' feet and legs, that living constantly with weighted, overgrown, unnaturally long feet is probably as much or more stressful on their long-term soundness.

[asb_own_me]

Originally posted by Sandy M:
I would tend to think that while jumping is undeniably stressful on horses' feet and legs, that living constantly with weighted, overgrown, unnaturally long feet is probably as much or more stressful on their long-term soundness.

I think that what many of us are trying to explain is that NOT all of our horses' feet are weighted, overgrown, and/or unnaturally long.

[greysandbays]

Originally posted by asb_own_me:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sandy M:
I would tend to think that while jumping is undeniably stressful on horses' feet and legs, that living constantly with weighted, overgrown, unnaturally long feet is probably as much or more stressful on their long-term soundness.

I think that what many of us are trying to explain is that NOT all of our horses' feet are weighted, overgrown, and/or unnaturally long. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Nobody was saying they WERE. They were saying that those who ARE, SHOULDN'T be. And this new rule facilitates them being so.

[Sandy M]

Thanks, greysandbays. Of course that is what I meant. The cover of the latest USDF Connection shows that lovely 3rd level dressage Saddlebred, and I doubt any of us have a problem with "Country Pleasure" type horses, be they ASB, TWH, Morgan or NSH. The problem is always, as is usual, the extremists, whether they be trainers and exhibitors of TWH, ASB or now (we hope not) Morgans.

I thought the comment that someone made about overuse of weights in Morgans being constrained by the exhibitor's fear that lost shoe will be weighed was interesting...so now that overuse could be concealed by use of turnbuckles. Hmmm......

[khorsem]

My horse is a NSH 3-gaited horse - the highest trotting level- There are no shoeing restrictions... He carries a 4 1/2" foot,16 oz shoe, and one pad. (To get an idea of the 16 ounces - our blacksmith weighed his (1)tennis shoe- it was 15.5 ounces)

Again, allowing bands is not changing shoeing restrictions as far as weight/length...

[Joanne]

The "creator" of the NSH and Renai registries, Gene LaCroix who was one of the owners of and head trainer for Lasma Arabians, did a clinic back in 1976 at the Orcutt Farm in Massachusetts. I was thrilled to go see him as he was winning everything in site and owned BASK! (I had a Bask granddaughter) During the park horse demonstration, they brought out an old very famous Morgan stallion (and I can't for the life of me remember his name) for Gene to ride. One of the goals of the park horse training was to get the horse to elevate the front end by bringing the hind end underneath. So while he was riding the stallion around, he would raise the whip up so the stallion could see it, and then he brought the whip forceably down on the hindquarters of said stallion, getting him to scoot underneath himself. He did this several times (show the whip, hit the hindquarters). The point was that all he had to do after a while was to show the whip and the horse would move out. I was shocked at this training method he was demonstrating and I've never appreciated him since. I've forgotten the stallion's name (poor guy), but never forgot that clinic demonstration!!!

[Tiffani B]

Sandy M, what do you consider extreme? One pad and an 18 ounce shoe? A 5" overall hoof+pad+shoe? Or the 4" TWH packages? Because without being clear you are leaving it up to our imagination...

And (not to sound like a snot) but I'd guess you don't know anything about our "country pleasure" horses. I have a feeling you'd detest most of their shoeing jobs even MORE - as I do. Since they cannot wear pads, some of them have their hooves grown out to lengths they wouldn't have if they had pads on. The heels get so far underneath their hoof that they cannot possibly be properly supported. They wear weighted shoes, usually weighing quite a bit more than a padded horses' shoe, because their angles cannot be correctly modified with pads to help them achieve the desired height of motion (motion is very much affected by angles, more than weight).

Of course, not every horse has this type of shoeing job, but it saddens me to see some of them. How they stay sound is a mystery to me. asb_own_me has some nice photos of her Country Pleasure horse (a world champion, BTW) who has very normal, trail-riding feet, and can trot level in his sleep.

I HATE what Country Pleasure has become. I wish to god we'd get some kind of shoeing regulations in place BESIDES the ridiculous "no pads". Pads weigh next to nothing. Let's set overall length and weight limits instead...

[Tiffani B]

Joanne, I must say, that method is NOT used by the good SS trainers. In fact, I've never even seen that done (for that purpose, anyways). Maybe for discipline on an unruly horse, but not to teach them to collect.

A crop to the behind is NOT how we teach our horses to drop their hineys and elevate their front ends. That is done with a lot of hard work, pulling a cart, and slowly learning how to collect through the hand, leg, and seat aids. Also, a lot of the good Saddleseat horses are naturally inclined to carry themselves this way, and "scoot" their butts underneath themselves all on their own. That's why they're chosen for Saddleseat!

I read somewhere that Mr. La Croix was banned from the Arab circuit for having cosmetic surgery done on some halter horses? Not sure if that's true. However, the Renai horse is mostly aimed at the Arab breeder who wants to cross their Arab mares with other stallions (DHH, Saddlebred, etc) to get the "ideal" park-type horse. I am in the camp that if you want it to move like, look like, and be the size of a Saddlebred, just go buy a darned Saddlebred and quit inventing breeds!!! Georgian Grande, NSH, Renai - sheesh. Pick a breed and stick to it. Now, I love a good crossbred who does its job well, but why invent something? Marketing, marketing, marketing...

[Sandy M]

Tiffani - I think any overlong foot, weighted on not, is a bad idea. If a horse for some reason (I'm trying hard to think of one, but can't) NEEDS the kind of feet I see on the "high steppers," I suppose it must be done,but I don't see that necessity. I know it's "traditional" and accentuates/exaggerates the gait, but frankly, I wish they were ALL "country pleasure" horses. I also have seen VERY flashy-moving ASBs with normal hooves, so it can be done, though I assume they would not be sufficiently "competitive". I concede the the ASB horses are not as extremely shod as the "Big Lick" TWH. That video was UGLY. I doubt ANY veterinarian recommends the kind of long feet (and pads) I see on these horses.

[Tiffani B]

Sorry Sandy M, I edited my post while you were replying.

No, vets don't recommend it (but neither do they recommend certain bits or tell me to body clip my horse). But in my 30+ years, I've never heard a vet tell me to stop, provided the horse was sound. Of course, if they become unsound, then a variety of things might change in their shoeing, one of them being length, but there is MUCH more to keeping a horse sound than length of hoof.

[Aptor Hours]

Originally posted by Tiffani B:
Those studs weigh about the same as one pad...I think that was the point Karen was trying to make. I believe she was also pointing out that jumping is very hard on a horse and can cause injury to them, much more easily than picking their feet up and wearing show shoes can, and wearing show shoes is not nearly as much work as jumping a course at speed. Sorry Karen if I misinterpreted you!

Karen is deaf and her word choices are not necessarily the same that a hearing person would use - if you read carefully you can easily understand her.

I will invite anyone on this forum to come visit me and my horse at any of the shows we hit next summer in the WI and IL areas. I will be more than happy to show you her shoes, work her for you, and answer any questions you might have about our breed and style of riding and training. Only requirement - that you come with an inquisitive mind and true desire to LEARN. Please email me privately for show dates and locations.

Ditto what Tiffani said. If anybody would like to see my horse show next year on the NY, Ohio and PA show circuit you are more than welcome. PM me for details. Actually my horse currently is growing toe but doesn't have pads since we will probably show in a division that doesn't allow pads but we go back and forth with pads and no pads.

[Joanne]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tiffani B:
....Maybe for discipline on an unruly horse, but not to teach them to collect.

A crop to the behind is NOT how we teach our horses to drop their hineys and elevate their front ends. That is done with a lot of hard work, pulling a cart, and slowly learning how to collect through the hand, leg, and seat aids. Also, a lot of the good Saddleseat horses are naturally inclined to carry themselves this way, and "scoot" their butts underneath themselves all on their own. That's why they're chosen for Saddleseat!

I read somewhere that Mr. La Croix was banned from the Arab circuit for having cosmetic surgery done on some halter horses? Not sure if that's true. "

It was David Boggs who was banned and I think he is back now. I just remember that Morgan stallion being good as gold and still he was "punished." I wish I could remember his name; he was an old park horse, very famous. The park horses back then were the English pleasure horses of today. Back then, Arabs were costing huge amounts of money. I think Gene's method was a QUICK way to obtain a result. He also demonstrated training the halter horse and used the exact same method: show the horse the whip, if he/she didn't stretch the neck and prick the ears up, said horse got the whip on the butt (and it wasn't done lightly either). Remember this was the 70s; I don't think Gene was even contemplating the NSH registry.

[hitchinmygetalong]

E-mails that have been sent by "a concerned citizen" - bless her heart for all the time and passion she has devoted to this subject. I have edited out certain names to protect privacy:

December 6, 2005

To: David O'Conner, President of USEF, Dr. Samuel J Barish, Vice President, USEF and President, USDF, Julie Goodman, General Council, USEF Morgan Horse Committee

I write in protest of the USEF rules that were voted on by the American Morgan Horse Association (AMHA) board of directors at the November 5, 2005 board meeting. I ask that USEF not consider ANY of the rule changes that were approved by the AMHA board, as these votes were ILLEGAL, according to the AMHA bylaws. I include a letter of protest I wrote to the AMHA board of directors, and I also include many emails sent to me by fellow AMHA members.

This cruel, inhumane treatment of hoof bands must not be allowed in any classes at any USEF-sponsored or endorsed horse show. AMHA members are rising up in anger and disgust at this recently-passed rule. The AMHA board of directors did a very poor job of informing the members about this upcoming vote. Most members had no idea this was on the board agenda. This must be stopped for the good of the horse. No horse deserves to be shown with bands. Trainers who use such methods should be barred from showing.


Thank you for your consideration and prompt attention to this important matter.


12-06-05


AMHA Board of Directors:

I include many emails I’ve received in response to the emails I sent out about this horrible issue of shoe bands/turnbuckles. I have received written permission from every one of these people to forward their emails to the AMHA and USEF boards of directors. AMHA members are incensed over this and we are not going to remain silent! This vote needs to be rescinded immediately.

Several members have reviewed the AMHA bylaws, and there is nothing in the bylaws that mentions the United States Equestrian Federation (USEF). There is nothing that prevents a board member from voting on USEF matters if that board member is not a USEF member. The “rule” requiring board members to join USEF is recent, and is totally arbitrary, unnecessary and unfair. If a board member does not show their horses, then why should they be forced to join USEF when they are elected to the board? This is done for “political reasons” only, just to show USEF that all AMHA directors are USEF members. Two directors do not belong to USEF – Bob Painter and Toodie Connor. Bob was not in attendance at the November meeting, but if he had been, he would have been denied a vote, just like Toodie Connor was.

It is unethical and illegal (according to AMHA bylaws) to deny anyone a vote on any board matter. This makes all USEF votes at the November board meeting NULL AND VOID. Sherry Cole stated in the audiotapes of the board meeting that she was introducing “15 different motions”. I counted 13 votes, so 2 “motions” must have been rolled into other votes. They must all be rescinded immediately. The AMHA board vote on shoe bands and the other USEF motions is ILLEGAL. I am writing USEF to protest the adoption, or even consideration, of any of the rules passed by the AMHA board.

It is time to say NO to inhumane treatment of our beloved Morgans. Anyone using shoe bands, GINGERING, or other cruel treatment of their horses should be barred from showing and have their license (trainer or judge) revoked immediately.

[Tiffani B]

I take issue with the copied email writer's opinion that bands are "cruel and inhumane treatment". Bands cause no harm to the horse. Obviously written by a person with no experience with bands...Extreme statements like these will only serve to make the board turn a deaf ear. A reasonable response is one that will get listened to, not knee-jerk reactions like this.

[Sandy M]

So, as Arab English Pleasure is now more like Park, I take it that Country Pleasure is becoming more like English Pleasure and the more exaggerated the movement, the more likely the horse is to win?? Too bad. It's been a few years, but the Country Pleasure Horses I saw (Arab and ASB, a few TWH) had feet that were only marginally longer than a totally flat shod hunter/eventer/western horse. That's sad to hear.

[clipclopdeaf]

Tiffani B,
Thank you, so much for me, I really appreicate it with you. I have Saddlebred http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[hitchinmygetalong]

Originally posted by Tiffani B:
I take issue with the copied email writer's opinion that bands are "cruel and inhumane treatment". Bands cause no harm to the horse. Obviously written by a person with no experience with bands...Extreme statements like these will only serve to make the board turn a deaf ear. A reasonable response is one that will get listened to, not knee-jerk reactions like this.

Tiffani, I certainly appreciate your feelings, and I agree in principle. But you need to understand what a really gut-wrenching issue this is for MORGAN people. I said at the beginning of this thread that this is not an "attack" of any sort on any other breed. I know you are trying to make clear the proper use of bands as applied to Saddlebreds. I hear you loud and clear. But I (and many, many others) do NOT want to see bands and turnbuckles in the Morgan breed. Period.

Just as I try to understand and accept Saddlebred showing styles and techniques, even if they are not something I personally would do (if I did I would have a Saddlebred, right?), please try to understand that for those of us who love the Morgan for the hardy, tough little horse that could plow on Saturday and trot the buggy to church in style on Sunday, this is a very passionate issue.

[Aptor Hours]

Bands being cruel and inhumane? Hmmmm sounds a bit silly. I think cross country in the sport of eventing is a lot more cruel and inhumane in my honest opinion but you have a right to voice your opinion and that is good that you chose to voice it.

[Tiffani B]

Hitch, I showed Morgans for several years. I love the breed and if there were a show circuit in my area I'd probably have one instead of an ASB.

I do not see bands as CRUEL and INHUMANE. Those are two words that are being inappropriately used. Crying wolf is not a good idea to get your point across in this instance. I would suggest writing a logical list of REASONS why the bands are something you do not approve of for use on Morgan show horses - not saying they're cruel or inhumane. Those types of comments, as I said, will get you ignored.

Here are some ideas.

1. The use of bands may promote the use of heavier-than-normal shoeing packages used on horses who, until this was passed, had to wear a package they could keep on without bands.
2. The tradition of the Morgan is the "sturdy, all-around" horse and by allowing the use of bands, we are moving further away from this image.

Etc, etc. Make some VALID arguments to support your point, not some overreaction, drama-queen statements. I know you didn't make that statement, but supporting it is as good as saying it yourself.

[Amwrider]

Originally posted by Joanne:
The "creator" of the NSH and Renai registries, Gene LaCroix who was one of the owners of and head trainer for Lasma Arabians, did a clinic back in 1976 at the Orcutt Farm in Massachusetts. I was thrilled to go see him as he was winning everything in site and owned BASK! (I had a Bask granddaughter) During the park horse demonstration, they brought out an old very famous Morgan stallion (and I can't for the life of me remember his name) for Gene to ride. One of the goals of the park horse training was to get the horse to elevate the front end by bringing the hind end underneath. So while he was riding the stallion around, he would raise the whip up so the stallion could see it, and then he brought the whip forceably down on the hindquarters of said stallion, getting him to scoot underneath himself. He did this several times (show the whip, hit the hindquarters). The point was that all he had to do after a while was to show the whip and the horse would move out. I was shocked at this training method he was demonstrating and I've never appreciated him since. I've forgotten the stallion's name (poor guy), but never forgot that clinic demonstration!!!

Lyman Orcutt? I knew him, he spent a great deal of time in the Tampa area. He used to help us out at the spring shows as paddock master. He passed away a few years ago.

Some of the Orcutt stallions:
Orcland Vigildon
Orcland Leader
Orcland Royal Don
Orcland John Darling
Orcland Bold Victory
Orcland Bold Fox

Lots of riders carry their whip up when they ride, but hitting the horse in the hindquarters to make him scoot is not right. I like a horse that is happy with his work and shows it, not a horse that will constantly be worrying when the next beating will take place.

[MissBri]

amwrider - it may also have been one of the ones being shown by Pat Tat or Doc Orcutt-
Green Meades Galaxy maybe?

[MissBri]

Leader and Vigildon would have been too old by then I think

[Joanne]

Some of the Orcutt stallions:
Orcland Vigildon
Orcland Leader
Orcland Royal Don
Orcland John Darling
Orcland Bold Victory
Orcland Bold Fox

None of the names rings a bell for the Morgan stallion I saw. All I can remember is that he had been a very successful park horse and when Gene rode him, he said something like "he still has it (meaning capability) in him." If you can think of any more names, I should recognize it when I see it.

Edited: Well now I am thinking I won't know it. I just went to this web site and none of the names popped out at me. I did recognize some of the names but not to the extent I could say that was the one I saw. The stallion should have been born in the 1950s. Maybe it was an outside stallion standing at the farm?

http://morganphotoarchive.com/all_names.htm

[Timex]

as the trainer for a Morgan farm, i can't get too worked up by the whole arguement. first off, the pictures posted in the OP were not valid to the arguement, were obviously NOT a show horse's foot, but rather, the bands were being used to keep a crappy foot together. why the condition of the foot is that bad, we don't know, so don't bother speculating. those pictures were inflammatory, meant to get people riled up, rather then think rationally. and it worked. now, our horses don't even have shoes, are all barefoot, (GASP! i even EVENT the younger stud!) so feel free to dismiss what i have to say. BUT! i see nothing wrong with bands, used in a therapeutic manner. if it keeps the shoe on, and keeps the hoof from being ripped apart, then what's the problem? and don't give me the whole the-shoes-are-heavier-and-need-to-be-held-on crap. some horses just don't have good feet, fact of life. if the bands, or a big toe clip is going to help keep that horse's feet together, and SOUND, then what is your problem? would you prefer a horse have his feet torn apart? if you honestly think that this is going to open the way for the infamous tricks used in other breeds by the less honest trainers, then either quit bitching here and write a letter to the morgan Assoc, USAEq, etc. but let's be realistic, the unethical trainers out there already have plenty of tricks up thier sleeves.

[asb_own_me]

Originally posted by Tiffani B:
asb_own_me has some nice photos of her Country Pleasure horse (a world champion, BTW) who has very normal, trail-riding feet, and can trot level in his sleep.

Thanks....but he was a RWC, not a WC. I wish! I'll post a couple links to some photos of him. He's been a show horse since age 3, when he got his first RWC title as a Fine Harness horse. I've only owned him for the past two years. He's been shown fine harness, five-gaited, park pleasure, show pleasure, pleasure driving and now country pleasure. He is now coming 13 years old and he's perfectly sound, still loves his job, and his hooves are fine. So TEN YEARS later, after all those so-called abusive and excessive shoeing packages http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif , he's sound and happy. Amazing, huh? Not really. He's the rule, not the exception.

at Louisville, 1996, Show Pleasure, age 6 (http://community.webshots.com/photo/519394291/519395187ymnrnh)

The following photos are all from this 2005 season, showing in Country Pleasure. Sorry there aren't any close-ups of his hooves, but since we've not had any problems http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif, believe it or not, I've never felt compelled to take any photos of his hooves http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif He's 12 years old in these photos.
Des Moines Springfest , 4/05 (http://community.webshots.com/photo/338881160/338882107fJWNJI)
7/05, Mid-States (http://community.webshots.com/photo/390375882/425508636EQpcHq#)
7/05, Mid-States (http://community.webshots.com/photo/390375882/390381230uwuAHU)
9/05, Longview Charity, blurry from video (http://community.webshots.com/photo/443368879/443368879cRWxKp)
9/05 St. Louis (http://community.webshots.com/photo/500937154/500939982iOnrEm)

[MissBri]

That doesn't look like a Morgan - looks like a Saddlebred. Isn't this thread about MORGANS or am I missing something in the title/original poster?

[asb_own_me]

TiffaniB brought up my Saddlebred CP horse as an example of normal feet. I thought I would elaborate on her point. Maybe you have missed something in this thread - Saddlebreds have been brought up many times.

[MissBri]

I realize that - I was hoping to get it back on track.

BTW your horse is very pretty - I am VERY partial to liver chestnuts with big white stars.

[Ghazzu]

Originally posted by clipclopdeaf:
I knew most all of you never visit Saddle Seat people at horse shows (Arabian, Morgan, Saddlebred and TWH, and some other breeds). That pads are not heavy, just plastic something, depend on some weight, helping horse lift up shoe high stepping.


Not the same at all.
Among the list, there are some serious differences on the thickness and weight allowed.
And, if they're not adding weight, then why stack the pads, as is commonly done in some of them?
Surely a horse working in a groomed arena doesn't need over an inch of padding (leather, usually, BTW) for protection?

[Ghazzu]

Originally posted by Tiffani B:

I read somewhere that Mr. La Croix was banned from the Arab circuit for having cosmetic surgery done on some halter horses? Not sure if that's true. ..

It isn't.
Ol' Gene got nailed many years ago for a drug violation, and had the cojones to file a lawsuit stating that, since he was the best Arab trainer in the world, his clients would be unduly harmed by his suspension. AHSA didn't buy it, and neither did the judge.

The cosmetic surgery debacle involved David Boggs, who, BTW, is back and as big as ever... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

And, IIRC, even though Gene LaCroix was one of the founders of the NSH registry, he got bounced out by that organization.

The Renai thing seems to me to be yet another attempt to make big $$ by convincing people that this particular Arab cross is just what they need...

[asb_own_me]

Originally posted by MissBri:
I realize that - I was hoping to get it back on track.

BTW your horse is very pretty - I am VERY partial to liver chestnuts with big white stars.

I think it has a lot to do with this thread. There have been many generalizations about ASB shoeing, which was brought up because that is allegedly the "disaster" that the Morgan posters want to avoid.

Anyway.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Thanks for the compliment! He thinks he's preeety, too!!!

[asb_own_me]

Originally posted by Ghazzu:
The cosmetic surgery debacle involved David Boggs, who, BTW, is back and as big as ever... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

Was that the "liposuction" on the throatlatch, or am I thinking of something else?

[clipclopdeaf]

I knew that Saddlebred and TWH wear any weight of wedge pads, they are plastic and with or without shoe band. See the picture of Morgan's shoe in first reply on page one. Of course some horses wear leather pads that is normal, no problem. But I am talking about plastic wedge pads, half inch high or one inch high, or maybe one-half inches high, also wedge weight too.
If trainer wants the horse stepping higher or maybe farrier has some problem with hoof that are up to trainer or farrier, not owner, who doing job.
One more thing, why Morgan wear it with shoe band, please explain more. I have seen all Morgan stepping high with wedge pad without shoe band, at horse shows. Morgan trainers and judges should know what rule of USEF or AMHA.

[asb_own_me]

Originally posted by clipclopdeaf:
If trainer wants the horse stepping higher or maybe farrier has some problem with hoof that are up to trainer or farrier, not owner, who doing job.

I think what some of them are saying, Karen, is that it IS the owner's responsibility to draw the line, and I completely agree.

[Ghazzu]

Originally posted by asb_own_me:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ghazzu:
The cosmetic surgery debacle involved David Boggs, who, BTW, is back and as big as ever... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

Was that the "liposuction" on the throatlatch, or am I thinking of something else? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Liposuction *and* removal of parts of the muscles.
Oh, and there were also the tattooed sclera and the cosmetic ear jobs. But I don't know whether those were part of the final nailing.
I do recall that a previous owner of one of the horses provided photos of her mare's ears when she owned her, and they were (gasp) quite different from their later appearance...

[meanmom]

Many comments have been made about the 'difference' between the 2 types of Morgans-Park horses vs classic Morgans. If you take the shoes off some of those park horses, turn them out, let them put on a little weight, think you would be surprised at how 'classic' they look.
My Morgan, who was shown English pleasure and classic pleasure, and could look very 'saddlebredy', is now my pleasure horse. He has added about 100 pounds, calmed down, is currently very fuzzy http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif, and the last trail ride we went on, had many comments about my 'classic' Morgan. His breeding is mainly Waseekas Nocturne line. I think some of the difference is how the horses are trained and presented.

[Timex]

meanmom, you should see our Waseeka-bred mare. the only difference between her and the 'older blood' Lippett and Gov't bred mares is the different head. otherwise, you'd never know the difference.

[xemasabini]

Originally posted by Timex:
first off, the pictures posted in the OP were not valid to the arguement, were obviously NOT a show horse's foot, but rather, the bands were being used to keep a crappy foot together. why the condition of the foot is that bad, we don't know, so don't bother speculating. those pictures were inflammatory, meant to get people riled up, rather then think rationally.

Actually, it was a show horse's foot, part of the hoof wall of one foot had been lost. The additional pads and acrylic were used to match the length and angle of the damaged hoof to the undamaged foot. That horse did show the latter part of this past season, and at this time his foot has completely grown out and he is no longer wearing bands. It was most definitely not a "crappy foot" being "held together".

[xemasabini]

Originally posted by Sandy M:
Tiffani - I think any overlong foot, weighted on not, is a bad idea.

What is an "overlong" foot?

I would take a "long" foot any day over one so short that the horse is walking on its heel bulbs. Talk about going lame fast!

As has been pointed out, keeping a proper angle on the foot is the primary key to keeping the horse sound.

Personally, I think too short a foot is far more harmful in the long run than a longer hoof. I know plenty of Morgans that have shown English Pleasure and Park for years and years, with "long" hooves and 18 oz shoes that are sound, healthy and happy.

[khorsem]

Originally posted by xemasabini:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Timex:
first off, the pictures posted in the OP were not valid to the arguement, were obviously NOT a show horse's foot, but rather, the bands were being used to keep a crappy foot together. why the condition of the foot is that bad, we don't know, so don't bother speculating. those pictures were inflammatory, meant to get people riled up, rather then think rationally.

Actually, it was a show horse's foot, part of the hoof wall of one foot had been lost. The additional pads and acrylic were used to match the length and angle of the damaged hoof to the undamaged foot. That horse did show the latter part of this past season, and at this time his foot has completely grown out and he is no longer wearing bands. It was most definitely not a "crappy foot" being "held together". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

um, okay then - a "damaged foot" being "held together" - if the foot has grown out, so now doesn't need the bands to hold it together - how else would you define that???

[xemasabini]

Originally posted by khorsem:
um, okay then - a "damaged foot" being "held together" - if the foot has grown out, so now doesn't need the bands to hold it together - how else would you define that???

Difference in perception of the words, perhaps.

"Crappy foot" to me is a foot that is always crumbly, shelly, thin-walled.

"Damaged" is exactly that - a foot that is otherwise in good condition (not shelly, crumbly, etc) that has been damaged. In this case, through loss of part of the hoof wall.

And technically, the foot isn't being "held together", the shoe is being held on the hoof.

To balance a horses feet under such conditions (for example, a horse out playing, overreaches, pulls of shoe and part of hoof wall), you either build the "damaged" foot up to match the undamaged one, or trim the undamaged down to match. Trimming down may or may not be an option, but building up is always an option. So, if the horse hasn't torn off so much hoof wall that he is lame, then he is perfectly capable of continuing work...except, his feet don't match. So, build the one foot to match the other while waiting for the (long and slow) process of hoof growth to take care of things.

Basically, it boils down to, trim the other foot down to match, then have two feet without enough wall to nail a shoe onto, and wait a year for them both to grow out, or put padding and acrylic on the "damaged" one, band the shoe on, and keep working the horse (who is not lame or truly injured in any way) while the one hoof grows out.

[khorsem]

Okay - when I said foot, I meant the whole package. I totally understand what you're saying, though, SS horses are my thing

[xemasabini]

Originally posted by khorsem:
Okay - when I said foot, I meant the whole package. I totally understand what you're saying, though, SS horses are my thing

Glad we have an understanding of meaning - thanks! (sometimes the internet is a barrier to conversation, not a help!)

[greysandbays]

Originally posted by xemasabini:
What is an "overlong" foot? Well, I'd say that if a normal horse person looked at it and thought, "My GOD, don't these people EVER trim their horse's feet!?!", it's probably an "overlong" foot. If it takes a big thick pad to fill up the space between the overgrown hoof wall and the shoe, it's probably an "overlong" foot. If a general-purpose farrier who gets wrangled into being the show farrier worries about not having any nails long enough in case any of these things come flying off, it's probably an "overlong" hoof.

I would take a "long" foot any day over one so short that the horse is walking on its heel bulbs. Talk about going lame fast! If a horse is walking on its heel bulbs, the toe is still too long.

Personally, I think too short a foot is far more harmful in the long run than a longer hoof. I know plenty of Morgans that have shown English Pleasure and Park for years and years, with "long" hooves and 18 oz shoes that are sound, healthy and happy. If the horse can move comfortably, there is no such thing as "too short a foot" unless you get very agressive with the trimming. Nobody but an idiot would do that, unless they are making the choice to trim little too short and make the horse temporarily a little sore in order to totally remove a compromised area of the hoof (bad nail holes, cracks, chips, etc). Even if the horse is trimmed a mite too short, there are no permanent ramifications; the stuff DOES grow back!

[xemasabini]

Originally posted by greysandbays:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xemasabini:
What is an "overlong" foot? Well, I'd say that if a normal horse person looked at it and thought, "My GOD, don't these people EVER trim their horse's feet!?!", it's probably an "overlong" foot. If it takes a big thick pad to fill up the space between the overgrown hoof wall and the shoe, it's probably an "overlong" foot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can understand where you are coming from, but I've had horses that made people have that immediate reaction - and the foot wasn't actually long. I had a horse that grew toe and heel at practically the same rate. End result, he had so much heel that his foot looked "long", yet that was his natural growth, and we kept him trimmed that way - to change his angles by taking off a lot of heel would have been very bad for his legs.

If a horse is walking on its heel bulbs, the toe is still too long.

I had a horse come into my barn with a 2" toe and no heel to speak of. Was on his heel bulbs. Nothing left to trim off. Barely enough hoof to be able to put a shoe on to allow him to grow out a decent hoof. Three resets, and he finally had a bit of heel and is now barefoot and comfortable.

If the horse can move comfortably, there is no such thing as "too short a foot" unless you get very agressive with the trimming. Nobody but an idiot would do that, unless they are making the choice to trim little too short and make the horse temporarily a little sore in order to totally remove a compromised area of the hoof (bad nail holes, cracks, chips, etc). Even if the horse is trimmed a mite too short, there are no permanent ramifications; the stuff DOES grow back!

Agreed about poor farrier work, but it takes a long time to grow a hoof, and I'd prefer to have enough hoof to work with (for me personally, at least 3.5" to 4" of hoof) - always easier to take some off than to put some on!

[Rudy]

Originally posted by greysandbays:If a general-purpose farrier who gets wrangled into being the show farrier worries about not having any nails long enough in case any of these things come flying off, it's probably an "overlong" hoof.

Thats why I buy my own nails...LoL. Okay, so I'm refering to my draft..he's wore pads before, does that count?

[hitchinmygetalong]

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif No surprise. USEF approved the rule change.

I'm going to the barn to apologize to my "classic" Morgan. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Eileen M]

Why would you want to do this medievel torture to a horse? Let's put this stuff in peoples toenials, and ask them to run around for awhile. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

I thought the Spanish Inquisition was over? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

[Amwrider]

Originally posted by Eileen M:
Let's put this stuff in peoples toenials, and ask them to run around for awhile. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

I thought the Spanish Inquisition was over? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

What the h@ll are you talking about? Nothing is going through their hooves except the usual nails. Did you even bother reading the post to know what bands/turnbuckles are?

[Duffy]

I have to admit, I'm not up on the current show Morgan trends. But, I keep thinking back to "Justin Morgan Had A Horse" type of Morgan. I guess some of those still exist...

And no, I admit to not having read the entire thread (shame of me - I normally get on others that comment when they haven't - my apologies in advance). But, why did people feel the need to make Morgans into these showing, high-stepping horses? Was it because they wanted a different temperment wrapped into a Saddlebred type of showiness?

I also have to admit, as ignorant as I am about these types of show horses, the shoes/foot - what do they call it, "package"(?) look pretty wild to me. Do people not think that some WILL increase the "package" because they are now allowed to use the bands while showing? I know there are limits. But, if the integrity of the foot isn't there to hold on these "packages" without the band, maybe it shouldn't be allowed? Am I totally missing the reasoning here?

I'm not trying to be ugly - I swear I'm not - just curious... I know us hunter people have made WB's and WB's crosses popular show hunters. For some, as a quieter alternative to the TB. We also use acrylic/glue-ons when we need to. One difference though, is that we're going for the more flat-kneed action - thus the lighter the shoe the better - usually.

[Eileen M]

Yes, I sure as h@ll did read the thread....and it got pretty http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif after the first page or 2 ..reminded me of a few WP lope/trope threads http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

Who is this benefitting... the horse,the breed, or the owner/trainer/whoever who wants to win ? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Amwrider]

OK, so if you did read through all of this, you are obviously trying to "stir the pot" since comparing this to driving things through people's toenails is an innacurate statement and your "inquisition" comment was obviously meant as bait since you are not communicating any valid points.

I can respect a comment such as Duffy's, but yours is an invalid argument with no basis other than to be inflammatory.

Shoes are nailed on and the turnbuckle is attached to the pad, not the foot. There is no pain involved. Go fishing/trolling elsewhere.

[Amwrider]

I found some photos of bands on saddlebreds. The bands fasten to the sides of the pads and go over the hoof. They do not cause pain, they simply support the back of the shoe.

Keep in mind that morgans have a length of foot/weight of shoe restriction. Saddlebreds don't and most of the horses in these photos have a toe length that appear to be in the 4 1/2 inch range. The pads bring the heel up so the angles are maintained and they absorb concussion as our horses trot big and fast. They also help to give the horse a bigger platform to land on to absorb concussion, similar to how a runner's sneaker is designed with added height in the sole of the heel, and a wider flare to the sole. The pads themselves are very lightweight plastic.

http://www.tnh1865.com/advertise/ad14.html

http://www.tnh1865.com/advertise/ad05.html

http://www.tnh1865.com/advertise/ad02.html

http://www.saddlehorsereport.com/contenders.aspx?world=true&wc=729

http://www.saddlehorsereport.com/contenders.aspx?world=true&wc=748

http://www.saddlehorsereport.com/contenders.aspx?world=true&wc=42

http://www.saddlehorsereport.com/contenders.aspx?world=true&wc=41


Duffy, using bands in a way does help the horse. By supporting the back of the shoe, the nail clinches are less likely to open up to where the horse can toss a shoe. When you nail high, a tossed shoe (especially when tossed in a big, high trot) carries a lot of momentum and can tear off a great deal of hoof wall.

You are correct in that if a horse has shelly or brittle feet, it would help the shoe stay on and thus keep competing, but hunters and racehorses use glue-on shoes for the same reason.

Shoes are specialized for the performance asked of the horse, whether it be racing, jumping or the saddle seat show ring, whether it involve toe grabs, caulks and studs or pads and bands.

As long as the horses are loved, healthy and happy, I don't see a problem.

[Duffy]

Amwrider - another stupid question for you. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif How does the shoeing differ for the hind? I don't see bands on those...

[hitchinmygetalong]

Amwrider, I need to say something here.

This topic was about MORGAN HORSES and a change in shoeing rules. I don't see how that has anything to do with Saddlebreds.

I am upset that this rule change closes the gap just that much more between the two breeds.

The Morgan Horse Association put down some fairly tight rules regarding foot length (ground to coronet) and shoe weight back in the 60's because Morgan enthusiasts were seeking to stop the slide to Mordlebreds.

We will NEVER see eye to eye on this subject, and for every defense you come up with I can come up with an equally strident objections.

I feel we must agree to disagree.

If you feel very strongly about the supposed misconception the general populace of this board has about Saddlebred shoeing, I might suggest you start a topic of your own entitled something along the line of "Saddlebred shoeing explained."

Thank you.

[sleepdeprived]

The thing about being overly defensive and harping on something is it's a bit like protesting too much. It negates what you have to say.

I agree with Hitch, it's her thread and it's about lamenting this major rule change which benefits the few and powerful in the *Morgan* breed. Why hijack it (yet again) to be the same old argument about shoeing and various equipment used by saddlebreds vs. another breed and replay the same tired old record? (And not all of us think of heavy shoes, pads and wedges as akin to wearing tennis shoes with a cushion, either, though I wish I had a dollar for every time I have heard it.)

Also, I don't think posting more pictures of the shoeing exactly helps your argument either as at least one of these you link to is as extreme an example of long foot/jacked up and banded pads as I have seen in the saddlebred ring (and I have seen it in person, too). Anyhow IMO, FWIW.

[Aptor Hours]

Those are good pictures and I appreciate you taking the time to post them.

[Aptor Hours]

Originally posted by pacificsolo:
The turn buckle appears to act as a sort of vice....explain how that would not be painful again??

No no....I guess it would be like buckles on your own shoes they keep them on your feet but unless you crank the buckles up really tight or something they certainly wouldn't cause yourself any pain. Or maybe you could even think of it as a belt??

[Kat the Horse]

Regarding the entire subject of shoeing for gait action, or shoeing for enhanced appearance, or any of the illogical reasons the show folks have for nailing 4-6 inches of wood/steel/acrylic onto the bottoms of healthy horses' feet--I think it's all a crock.
(puke emoticon here)

Morgan and Saddlebred, Tennessee Walker or Missouri Foxtrotter--all the naturally high-lustre gaited horses do what they do WITHOUT the added weight, strain, and wear of shoes of ANY type. But somewhere, 'way back there, somebody thought they knew how to make THEIR horse pick those feet up higher and with bigger action. It has NOTHING to do with the good of the horse, nothing to do with the actual appreciation of the breed, and everything to do with the ego of the person who owns/shows/trains the horse.

Arabians have always been hardy, intelligent, people-oriented animals, with tough bodies well suited for the work they did for us. However, in the past 30 years they have been 'refined'; their natural wide-eyed heads bred into grotesque caricatures, their sturdy build changed into long-backed, weak-rumped horrors. Worst of all, so much of the natural intelligence and steadiness has been affected, making some Arabians exactly what some folks say: "stupid and dangerous". And as if this wasn't bad enough, it has become fashionable to overgrow their hooves into long, underslung blocks, robbing them of most of their native grace.

Quarterhorses aren't much better--from the stalwart cowpony with feet like granite and the constitution to match, we now have a breed that is fed like beef calves in order to have those fat, over-muscled weanlings and pudgy halter winners. We've nailed shoes on healthy feet at an early age, retarding the natural increase in size, so that we have BIG horses on tiny, unfunctioning, painful feet.

And oh, Lord--the Appaloosa. I know, there are folks that HATED the 'original' Appaloosa. What was to LOVE? No mane, no tail, cobby and short-coupled, with a head like a Missouri mule and the mind of one too. But they were BEAUTIFUL, in the form dictated by their environment. They were sure-footed, strong and fast. Now the Appaloose is usually just a 'spotted quarterhorse', with long showy tail and refined body, with too much of the Appaloosa as a separate breed gone. Bah!

You look at every breed that has come under the unkind hand of 'popularity' and you will see a natural wonder falling into man-made decline. The fact that so little is really KNOWN about what is best for the animal (shoes or not? grain or just hay? 24/7 turnout or stalled for weather?) we then begin to 'tweak' their natural gaits, risking permanent harm and shortening their useful lives. We force their heads down, or up. We apply caustic chemicals, and harsh training 'aids'. We bend their tails up, or inject them so they don't do anything.

I know that anybody that shows at ANY level, any one of the many breeds of horses, knows of some 'enhancement' that doesn't do the horse one bit of good, and sometimes is nothing but abuse.

If Morgan breeders aren't fighting to keep the appreciation of the Morgan as a HORSE the focus of the Morgan show experience, instead of a TRAINING & PRODUCTION result, than I can't say these folks really appreciate their horses at all.

I don't understand the Saddlebred folks--they have a beautiful breed of horse with a naturally lovely gait and a calm but sensitive nature--and they feel they need to practically remodel it, from the ground up. NOTHING is considered 'abuse' and nowhere is anybody worried about keeping any integrity to the very animal himself because, hey--doesn't the horse look GOOD? (well...no...)

So, have at it. Band those damned shoes on. use more nails, perhaps some glue, hell--BONDO them suckers on. Plastic surgery has already come to showbarns for Arabians, along with 'neuticles' for that really rank stallion who would show better with fewer available hormones. So what if Morgans follow the Quarterhorse and the Saddlebred down that nasty foot-sore slope, at least they'll look good!

[hitchinmygetalong]

Kat, thank you so much for your post. It brought tears to my eyes. You have said so very eloquently and in plain speech what has been harbored in my heart for so long.

[Annetta]

hitch--I'm another Morgan owner that laments this new rule change. Unfortunately I figure it was inevitable--I remember years back when one big name Morgan trainer wanted AMHA to allow false tails...her attitude was "anything to win". We haven't shown in over 12 years now--it just became impossible to compete with our "natural" hoofed Morgans, and we were absolutely not going to go to the built up hoofs, heavy shoes, etc.

Sure there have been "strict" shoeing regulations in this breed, but those regulations became way too generous many years ago in my opinion. I find it all very sad.

Just to correct (not sure anyone else has said this) the stallion Rythum Nation wasn't a Saddlebred--it was his dam that was the reg'd Saddlebred, a Radiant Sultan daughter.

Hey, hitch--did you know that Bruce E. is now into Modern Shetlands?

[hitchinmygetalong]

Well, I've been giving this quite a bit of thought and I think I'm going to start writing the top farm owners and implore them to think of what their priorities are.

I'm sure it won't make a stitch of difference but I don't know what else to do. These are the people that are pushing this agenda and they are the ones responsible. So, I'm going to the source.

Please, anyone reading this thread, jump up a few posts and read Kat The Horse's post. We all need to remind ourselves just why we have these marvelous animals.

Marvelous Ideal - one of the great ones (http://www.lazys.net/lsm/images/MarvelousIdeal.jpg)

[Eileen M]

What about the membership in general, Hitch?

The silent majority, if you will.

That horse is just lovely http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[lilblackhorse]

hitch--thank you for bringing this to our attention.

I feel that once again the original intention of this thread has been lost and or hijacked along the way by the always defensive saddlebred people.

this thread is about MORGANS.

I find this trend very sad indeed. I grew up with a lovely Morgan--old style fellow, almost 16 hands. He evented with me and he stalked bears and large game, as well as taking me to my B rating.

I hadn't realized how downhill the breed had gone until I went to a large Morgan show recently--I was digusted. The breed has somehow morphed into little poodles who look like Arab/Saddlebred crosses. And when we watched the classes trying to pick winners? well, suffice it to say that the one we thought was the most digusting representation of the original breed was----well, it won. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

And now to allow the owners to tack on these stupid high shoes--and then tack them down with fricking plumbing hardware so they stay on (hello, they don't stay on because they are unnatural)...well, that's just a sad day for Morgan owners who remember the days when they looked like the horse pictured above.

[bludejavu]

This is my first and probably only post on this topic but I did want to say that you folks have misjudged Amwrider. She trains both Morgans and Saddlebreds and at any given time, she has twice as many Morgans under her care than Saddlebreds. I am pretty sure she used the pictures of Saddlebred hooves because they are easier to find in the Saddlebred glossies. After all, there aren't many Morgans using bands to date.

As for myself, I am a "dyed in the wool" Saddlebred fan, owner, etc., but my father raised Morgans and I grew up with them. They are wonderful horses but I never thought their true calling was as a Saddle Seat type horse. I think they make just about the prettiest western horses I've ever seen (other than Saddlebreds of course http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif). I tend to feel the same way about Arabians too. I'm not one to jump quickly to the defense of Saddlebreds, or any breed, for that matter, but do feel that bands aren't quite the boogers that most of you feel that they are. If Morgans are going to be shown with more pads, and if their hoof length is to be compromised, then bands will only help what is considered a sorry situation by most of you. Bands aren't the enemy in that they are just extra protection. For those of you who want the Morgans to stay as original as possible, then fight against added pads, weighted shoes, toe length, etc. In other words, start with the items that made the bands become necessary.

This post is merely to try and explain Amwrider's background as I have a lot of respect for her. You most likely wont hear from me again on this topic http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

[lilblackhorse]

. For those of you who want the Morgans to stay as original as possible, then fight against added pads, weighted shoes, toe length, etc. In other words, start with the items that made the bands become necessary.


I agree. The whole "let's build their feet into little skyscrapers so they can fall off them and break their legs" makes me http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif. However, if bands are not allowed, then maybe the stupid people won't be ABLE to mound their horse up on the Empire State Building. If they won't stay on...well then...bummer. No tall shoes for you. (said in the soup nazi voice) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[hitchinmygetalong]

Originally posted by bludejavu:
This is my first and probably only post on this topic but I did want to say that you folks have misjudged Amwrider.

I don't think anyone here has "judged" any particular person.

I was upset because the thread kept getting dragged into pointless, enlessly-circling arguments about the "benefits" of bands and turnbuckles:
Pro:
"They are good for the horse because it holds the 'package' on."
Con:
"If the horse wasn't carrying so much shoe/padding/etc. he wouldn't need bands."

So, like a dog chasing it's tail, this would never end. Ever.

And you know what? As saddened as I am that this shoeing rule change has passed, I am heartened in the knowledge that there are many good people quietly breeding the horse that is proudly depicted in that wonderful bronze at the Kentucky Horse Park. They may not be out there at the Grand National, they may not have the big splashy ads or the front cover of The Morgan Horse Magazine, but THEY are the ones protecting the integrity of the Morgan breed.

[hitchinmygetalong]

pacificsolo, it is my understanding that the turnbuckles are kept fairly loose and only "snugged" (not "tightened") when the horse is working.

What would happen if those turnbuckles were cranked hard is anybody's guess.

Mind you, I still maintain that I would never have this kind of overly long/cumbersome/heavy package on any horse of mine. I just don't believe in that type of artificial aid. Some do. We'll never agree.

[lindac]

What would happen if those turnbuckles were cranked hard is anybody's guess.

The horse would be lame and very off in it's trot. Not a good thing for the showring as they would be excused or not placed at all.

I am disappointed in the ruling on Morgan horses as I believe it is to allow cheating with more weight, but I come from an ASB Saddleseat background where many horses had these and honestly no horses that I ever groomed had a problem with them.

[Aptor Hours]

Originally posted by lindac:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">What would happen if those turnbuckles were cranked hard is anybody's guess.

The horse would be lame and very off in it's trot. Not a good thing for the showring as they would be excused or not placed at all.

I am disappointed in the ruling on Morgan horses as I believe it is to allow cheating with more weight, but I come from an ASB Saddleseat background where many horses had these and honestly no horses that I ever groomed had a problem with them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks Linda! Agree or disagree I would hate for people to think they are some sort of toruture device when in fact they are not. I maybe wrong but I thought I heard some dressage or hunter people saying they have bands?? Certaninly I am sure no package involved but bands.

[Robyn]

What Kat the Horse said. Ditto, ditto, DITTO! Nobody can say the "package" and all it's trappings are for anybody other than the owner/rider/trainers glory. Not the horse. Never the horse.

[Eileen M]

Amen, Robin .

[Kelly in NJ]

Originally posted by Aptor Hours:

Thanks Linda! Agree or disagree I would hate for people to think they are some sort of toruture device when in fact they are not. I maybe wrong but I thought I heard some dressage or hunter people saying they have bands?? Certaninly I am sure no package involved but bands.


I'm choosing to stay out of the discussion for the most part.

But, I have to put in my 2 cents on this point. I've been in H/J and then dressage for 25 years, and have NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, EVER seen a horse with any type of bands.

Needed to clarify that.

[khorsem]

lol - you really need to go look at one of these evil vices ,really - they aren't the torture inducing devices they're made out to be and IF THEY ARE CRANKED TOO HARD THEY WILL BREAK!!!!!!!!!! They're made of very thin metal and the metal will snap with too much pressure. (I found this out in my early years of grooming)

[Duffy]

They look a little too much like the doohickey that my dentist puts around one of my broken down tooth to replace an old filling or do a crown. We hates them! (Matrix is what I believe that torture thing is called.)

[Steve]

Originally posted by pacificsolo:
OK, so maybe it ISN'T the torture device that I thought it was from looking at it....but damnit! If you have to USE it to HOLD a shoe on, then the damn shoe is too freakin' heavy!!!!!!

Admit it! You care much more about the horse's action than you do about the care of his/her hooves! I have NEVER known a farrier who would say that adding extreme weight to a horse's hooves was good for it. And in my not-so-humble-opinion, if you need a band to hold the weights on, IT IS TOO HEAVY!!!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

The whole point of the bands is to help the horses. Imagine, a park horse with a decent sized shoe, steps on himself. The shoe will come off, and a lot of the hoof (most likely). As a result the horse is in pain and out for the season. If you have bands, they shoe pulls a little...does not come off and the hoof is still intact. The horse remains healthy and sound.

Band's do not hold the shoes on, we use nails just like hunter/jumpers. And even morgan hunters get a little weight to help them move in an ideal manner. Its not a really big deal.

Steve

[caffeinated]

I can see how the bands could be helpful when it comes to big heavy shoes...

but it is all about the movement, correct?

I think the real issue here is not whether the bands are painful or torturous, but the very basic issue of what a Morgan is and should be about. Are they the do-it-all versatility champions who can jump and pull logs and still look pretty under saddle like their ancestors? Or are they now just scaled down versions of Saddlebreds?

Last time I went to a Morgan show I was really shocked. Granted, I hadn't been following the Morgan world for a while, being into h/j and liking thoroughbreds, but I'd always had a soft spot for them (my grandfather had a few when we were kids, and a few of the school horses I rode were morgans). Going to a Morgan show, I expected to see horses like I remembered. Instead I saw... I don't even know- puffed up, stack-shoed, saddlebred-like horses. I know that old-style morgans could still move with some extravagance- I saw that at gramps's farm. So it's not like the "mini saddlebred" look is really necessary for saddleseat and harness horses to look cool (at least in my horribly uninformed opinion)

This rule change simply blurs that line more and creates more of a division between what a Morgan was and what a Morgan is now. It just cements the trend toward "mordlebreds" (tm someone). In some peoples' eyes, that's fabulous. To others, it's like a betrayal of the breed and a radical departure from what the breed is supposed to be about.

Kind of like Halter arabians and quarterhorses, or any breed that has become overdone for the sake of showing and winning. People who show those horses do certain things to win, and those things aren't really inhumane. But to people who care about the origins of the breed and what the horse was "meant to do" find those things abhorrent because they take the horses farther away from that.

If that was incoherent I apologize, I only got about two hours of sleep last night. I just think this argument isn't really about the specific shoes and equipment but about something more basic.

The above poster said that the weights help the horse move in the "ideal" manner... but why is it "ideal" for a Morgan to move like a Saddlebred?