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View Full Version : Prelim division at hunter oaks



Gry2Yng
Jul. 24, 2011, 03:18 PM
What happened? Most of the division either withdrew or was eliminated.

CatchMeIfUCan
Jul. 24, 2011, 03:34 PM
I think they had really challenging weather there. They were potentially trying to move stadium into the indoor.

Brigitte
Jul. 24, 2011, 03:36 PM
I'm getting the scoring up. It looks like stadium is really shaking things up.

Brigitte
Jul. 24, 2011, 03:40 PM
It does look like they are in the middle of a lot of heavy weather, it has been quite a week for rain! I'm not sure if they got the amount we got here the other day, but what a tough summer for everyone.

Carried Away
Jul. 24, 2011, 07:10 PM
Anyone know if it was all weather related? There were a ton of W's, but also many E's from horses I know with no history of E in SJ...I'm assuming footing was an issue for those who chose to stay and ride?

happyhaffiehaley
Jul. 24, 2011, 10:15 PM
I was at Hunter Oaks at BN and the weather was certainly a challenge. Friday and Saturday we had heat indexes well over 100 (up to 115). Today (Sunday) we had major storms all morning - probably 4+ inches of rain in a couple hours. The TD/organizers said at a rider meeting this morning that stadium just wasn't doable on the grass where it was set up, the outdoor was flooded, and the indoor wasn't big enough, so they gave us the option of running it as a combined test or waiting an hour to see what the weather did. Considering there was a lot more rain coming, everyone voted that we call it then and hold it as a combined test.

Most people start packing up in the pouring rain and many people left. However, after about an hour, it was announced that they were going to try to make the indoor work for stadium. By that point, many people were packed up and on the road or decided it just wasn't worth it to stay, myself included. Apparently, they did finish in the indoor, even though they'd said they'd run it as a CT.

While this was a bit frustrating, I guess that's how it goes! It was really slick everywhere (one girl tore her ACL simply walking in the mud to her truck). So all those W's as far as I know are from people who either thought it would be run as a CT as per the rider meeting or didn't want to risk anyone's safety by warming up in the mud/torrential rains.

Haley

Uno, The Great Escape
Jul. 24, 2011, 10:24 PM
I ran novice at Hunter Oaks this weekend, and this is incredibly frustrating to see that they ran stadium in the indoor after all the discussion.

Our group in particular was very large, with ten horses competing. We had an IP rider with another training horse, one training rider, 2 novices riders (including myself), and the rest were beginner novice. We were super impressed with the event, having come from a less-than-desirable facility (Derbyshire HT). But when the rain started pouring, our BN rider who was in 1st decided "Not just no, heck no." Many BN riders don't have studs! This is soooo dangerous. Four of our horses left for our 5 hour drive home then and there.

The rider meeting was called, and we figured it was to call the event off and hand out ribbons and prizes. When we got there, we couldn't believe that people were considering riding! There was a LAKE outside the barns. The TD and ground jury president were very understanding and considerate during the whole thing, so a job well done to them. They explained that no matter how they tried, it would be tricky to get stadium done. So after an old-school raise of hands that was split 50/50, it was decided that they would wait 2 hours and "see how it was". Though the indoor option was discussed, it seemed to be quickly dismissed. Therefor, our group left.

I wish I could have done stadium, and kudos to those who did. I'm just glad they didn't run it out on the grass. What a relief. A great event on the whole, I just am disappointed I didn't get to keep (or move up from!) my fourth place standing.:rolleyes:

flutie1
Jul. 25, 2011, 11:09 AM
I understand that the decision to call the event was reversed in deference to some riders who needed qualifiers. Kudos to the H.O. staff and volunteers for making it happen.

aurorag16
Jul. 25, 2011, 11:16 AM
I was at Hunter Oaks and stayed until the very end. One of the main reasons Stadium was run was because many riders needed QRs for AECs and moving up. The organizers did the best they could to accommodate everyone, and decided to run stadium in their indoor, which was a bit small and challenging. I saw many horses have difficulty in the indoor as it was a very tight, compact course with a lot of questions. On the prelim course there was a one stride combination only 2-3 strides out of a turn and then maybe 5 strides to a skinny, and that caused almost (if not all) the stadium Es in the prelim divisions.

Overall though, I thought it was a very nice event. The organizers did the best they could to run the show in scorching heat for two days and torrential downpours the third.

secretariat
Jul. 25, 2011, 11:42 AM
I'm sure I'm gonna get flamed for this, but "needing a QR" should NEVER be a reason to continue an event if the venue has been determined to be unsafe or unrideable.

someday
Jul. 25, 2011, 11:55 AM
everyone that decided to do the ride in the indoor was able to see how tight the turns were. It was not unsafe, just needed a very accurate ride. It was the rider's decision.
The officials did all they could based on rider input.
I had a blast:D

aurorag16
Jul. 25, 2011, 12:11 PM
I saw every level go in the indoor, and I agree with someday that the courses required an accurate ride, but the questions were appropriate for each level. I think the weather and changing to the indoor just unsettled some riders and the scores reflected that. I do not think that the indoor course was dangerous, and I don't think there was a single fall, though there were quite a few rails.

corgigirl14
Jul. 25, 2011, 03:30 PM
I rode in one of the novice rider divisions at Hunter Oaks. The organizers and officials did an OUTSTANDING job of bending over backwards to finish the horse trial for us.

The rain was horrible Sunday morning. The officials made it very clear in the riders meeting that riding outside was simply not an option. I was actually hooking up my trailer packing for the 7 hour drive home when I got word that they were going to hold stadium in the indoor. There were lots of people there trying to get their last NQR for the AEC's and the officials did the best with what they had to get those riders their NQR. I give them a lot of credit for that. Pulling together and organizing a brand new stadium course in that short amount of time was very impressive to me.

The arena was small but so were the jumps (I believe they used the minimum height and amount of jumps required for each division). It required an accurate and steady ride. But it was in no way, shape, or form dangerous at all. In fact I felt like the reason it was difficult were the distractions in the arena (small size, the shadows, and spectators crammed in to watch) way more so than the actual jumps.

This show was a perfect example of when life hands you lemons you can choose to make lemonade. We riders had the choice of either scratching or jumping a small (and when I say small I felt like my novice stadium course was more the height of a beginner novice course) stadium course to finish out the horse trial. And when I am traveling that far and paying that much $ to go to a show as long as it is safe for my horse I will always choose to finish.

Thanks again to everyone at Hunter Oaks for making it happen!

MichiganMischief
Jul. 25, 2011, 07:01 PM
How long does one need to wait after a decision has been made to ensure that is not reversed? For those that left after being told the indoor really didn't meet the nec. size requirememts it is hard to understand why it was then used for SJ.

Is it fair to those who have qualified for the AECs (or to move up) on a legit SJ course that riders who rode a less than legit SJ course (Nov course that was more like beginner novice) are also qualified?

Are we compromising the integrity of the sport by trying to accomodate riders who want to get a qualifying score and/or finish a HT even if it means using a substandard SJ course?

JAM
Jul. 25, 2011, 09:14 PM
I'm sure I'm gonna get flamed for this, but "needing a QR" should NEVER be a reason to continue an event if the venue has been determined to be unsafe or unrideable.

No flame from me. Why would anyone put him/herself and, more importantly, his/her horse through heat indexes of 100-115, 4+ inches of rain (really?) just to qualify for something? This is where rider responsibility comes in.

enjoytheride
Jul. 25, 2011, 09:41 PM
I had a question about moving the course to a smaller arena. Can't the course designer modify his course to make it easier to navigate? I'm not talking about dumbing it down, but if it isn't reasonable to ask a horse to do something in the space allowed then why can't you change it?

I have a very small arena and I can make an entire course that is doable and safe yet challenging. I can't set up the bigger lines but I can do things like making a fence jumpable from both directions.

Kealit
Jul. 25, 2011, 10:06 PM
Is it fair to those who have qualified for the AECs (or to move up) on a legit SJ course that riders who rode a less than legit SJ course (Nov course that was more like beginner novice) are also qualified?

It doesn't seem like it ran more like a BN course given that a previous poster who was there described it as needing a very precise ride. The height, as described, was not max novice height, but I don't know that I would call it "less than legit" based on the description.

corgigirl14
Jul. 25, 2011, 10:57 PM
No flame from me. Why would anyone put him/herself and, more importantly, his/her horse through heat indexes of 100-115, 4+ inches of rain (really?) just to qualify for something? This is where rider responsibility comes in.

I take serious offense to this comment. So since I live in the Midwest should I not ride my horse from June to September just because it’s hot? Horse are made to be outside 24/7 365 days a year. We choose to “soften” them by pampering them and putting them in a barn in any kind of adverse weather condition. I did not hear or see of one horse having trouble with the heat. Most eventers are excellent horseman and for you to insinuate that me or anyone else who went to Hunter Oaks are anything but that is ridiculous.

Even if I had not participated in this show my mare would still have been in a barn in 100 plus degree weather. The rider responsibility comes in that you need to actually ride your horse in the heat to prepare them (and you) for a show situation in which it will be that hot. Horses are not made of glass and a properly conditioned horse is perfectly able to perform well in the heat. And no I did not need to finish this show to earn a NQR for the AEC’s. I choose to stay and finish because that was the right thing to do for me.

And no I do not think asking my athletic and conditioned horse to perform less than 30 total minutes of actual work over the course of three days (the show was Friday, Saturday and Sunday) in the heat is asking too much.

There was a competitor’s meeting on Thursday evening and the officials made it very clear that they did not want to see one dressage coat at this show and that there would be a huge cattle trough of water at the end of cross country to use to cool down the horses as they came across the finish line. There were also water trucks at every barn and the temp stalls had enough generator power for at least two fans to be on each horses stall. And Sunday was only calling for a 40% chance of light rain all day. The enormous storm and rain that hit the show grounds was a surprise to everyone and the officials dealt with it in the best way they thought possible.

In the competitor’s meeting at 10 on Sunday morning the show WAS NOT CALLED OFF. The officials said they would wait at least another hour to decide what to do for sure. So anyone that left during that time did so knowing that there was still a small chance they would move the stadium in the indoor.

No rules were broken by the officials by moving stadium and even though the course was on the small side for each respective division it was still extremely challenging due to the unique circumstances.

JAM
Jul. 26, 2011, 02:02 PM
It's just as hot in the summer where I live, probably hotter. If it was your considered judgment that it was appropriate for you and your horse to compete under the conditions as they were described -- 100-115 heat index and then heavy rain -- then that was the rider responsibility you chose to exercise. (And I assume that the amount of riding time includes both warm-up and time in the ring or on course.) I was proceeding from the statement made in the OP, namely, that most of the division in question either withdrew or was eliminated, which suggested to me that many riders chose not to compete under the conditions as described and many or most of those who did choose to compete under those circumstances paid or made their horses pay a price.

I have seen numerous articles from respected sources suggesting that when the temperature plus humidity exceeds 180 (e.g., 90 degrees plus 90 percent humidity), that is a dangerous riding condition and extreme caution should be exercised when riding (much less competing).


I take serious offense to this comment. So since I live in the Midwest should I not ride my horse from June to September just because it’s hot? Horse are made to be outside 24/7 365 days a year. We choose to “soften” them by pampering them and putting them in a barn in any kind of adverse weather condition. I did not hear or see of one horse having trouble with the heat. Most eventers are excellent horseman and for you to insinuate that me or anyone else who went to Hunter Oaks are anything but that is ridiculous.

Even if I had not participated in this show my mare would still have been in a barn in 100 plus degree weather. The rider responsibility comes in that you need to actually ride your horse in the heat to prepare them (and you) for a show situation in which it will be that hot. Horses are not made of glass and a properly conditioned horse is perfectly able to perform well in the heat. And no I did not need to finish this show to earn a NQR for the AEC’s. I choose to stay and finish because that was the right thing to do for me.

And no I do not think asking my athletic and conditioned horse to perform less than 30 total minutes of actual work over the course of three days (the show was Friday, Saturday and Sunday) in the heat is asking too much.

There was a competitor’s meeting on Thursday evening and the officials made it very clear that they did not want to see one dressage coat at this show and that there would be a huge cattle trough of water at the end of cross country to use to cool down the horses as they came across the finish line. There were also water trucks at every barn and the temp stalls had enough generator power for at least two fans to be on each horses stall. And Sunday was only calling for a 40% chance of light rain all day. The enormous storm and rain that hit the show grounds was a surprise to everyone and the officials dealt with it in the best way they thought possible.

In the competitor’s meeting at 10 on Sunday morning the show WAS NOT CALLED OFF. The officials said they would wait at least another hour to decide what to do for sure. So anyone that left during that time did so knowing that there was still a small chance they would move the stadium in the indoor.

No rules were broken by the officials by moving stadium and even though the course was on the small side for each respective division it was still extremely challenging due to the unique circumstances.

Uno, The Great Escape
Jul. 26, 2011, 02:27 PM
How long does one need to wait after a decision has been made to ensure that is not reversed? For those that left after being told the indoor really didn't meet the nec. size requirememts it is hard to understand why it was then used for SJ.

This is exactly my thinking. I would have stayed, finished the event, and even moved up. Like others have stated, I feel like AECs should not be the determining factor. Area IV eventers still have Silverwood and Otter Creek to qualify if it's really that big of a deal. I thought eventing was about forming a team with your horse, not the ribbons...? Don't get me wrong, I'd love to go the AECs, but right now, I just want to have fun.

As for an "accurate" ride, my horse and I do better with twisty-turny courses because we have to think and it makes sure that I keep him focused and forward between our fences. And as for the prelim course, a one stride off a turn, five strides to a skinny? That should be basic to a prelim pair. Of course there might have been other factors, yada yada, so I'm sure that wasn't the issue.

Again, good for HO to making it happen, but the possibility was so quickly dismissed that I, among many others, left, and we most definitely would have stayed. If the indoor was this "do-able" in the first place, the program should've stated that in case of rain, an indoor facility is available for use. :)

eventerwannabe
Jul. 26, 2011, 04:48 PM
[QUOTE=JAM;5741279] If it was your considered judgment that it was appropriate for you and your horse to compete under the conditions as they were described -- 100-115 heat index and then heavy rain -- then that was the rider responsibility you chose to exercise. (And I assume that the amount of riding time includes both warm-up and time in the ring or on course.) I was proceeding from the statement made in the OP, namely, that most of the division in question either withdrew or was eliminated, which suggested to me that many riders chose not to compete under the conditions as described and many or most of those who did choose to compete under those circumstances paid or made their horses pay a price.


I was at HO this weekend and yes it was hot. All of the WDs you see on the live scoring were people withdrawing because of the confusion about SJ (is it cancelled, is it not cancelled) not because of the heat. I believe all competitors went out on XC on Saturday and I will tell you all of the horses that I saw cross the finish line had several people waiting there to take care of them. And the few that didn't have help were lent a hand by others waiting for their own riders to come across the finish. Water and ice were readily available and a vet truck was also at the finish line in case a horse was in distess, but I don't think it was ever needed. I saw great horsemanship and great team work all the way around.

There was definte confusion about whether or not the event was being cancelled at the riders meeting. After the vote it seemed to be called but about 2-3 minutes later the organizer said we would wait an hour and see. The only problem was she didn't have any type of microphone and people had already left to start packing or didn't hear. I was within ear shot so I heard the second announcement. It would have been nice if if the loudspeaker was working better to have made the announcement more clear because I know a lot of the WD probably would have stayed had they known they were able to make the indoor work.

corgigirl14
Jul. 27, 2011, 10:38 AM
All the “W’s” that show up for Hunter Oaks came from people leaving the show (I assume) because they thought it was cancelled. I don't think it has much of anything to do with pulling out because they thought the course/conditions were dangerous. I can't speak for the upper levels but since when is jumping a small (novice) course of jumps in an enclosed indoor considered dangerous???

Within a few minutes after the competitor’s (Sunday) morning meeting more rain continued to pound the facility. I guess a lot of people didn’t want to wait and just wanted to get on the road home. I can’t speak for everyone but as I was loading up my stuff I heard from several other competitors that stadium was going to be held in the indoor. I didn’t have to go to the show office or listen for an announcement to find that out it was spreading like wildfire through the barn area.

And since officials were offering stadium jumping they couldn’t split the difference. Meaning, they couldn’t very well give those that left credit for a combined test when those that stayed were completing all three phases.

So if you did not show up to ride your stadium course a “W” went by your name. And a lot of people did leave which explains all the "W's" on the scoring sheet.

LynLyn
Aug. 7, 2011, 01:37 PM
At one point during one of the rider meetings it sounded like the possibility of using the indoor was no go. As people expressed concern about qualifiers, they said they would have another rider meeting. There are some who stayed who probably wish they had gotten a W instead of an E and some who left who wished they had not. The weather was truly a challenge all weekend. You know it is going to be a bad strom when the announcers says,"If you have anything you need to tie down, now would be a good time to do it!" Kudos for getting through it!

It ain't over till the proverbial fat lady sings.

OTTBs
Aug. 11, 2011, 12:36 PM
The one thing I didn't notice anyone else mentioning was the warmup situation. They were only letting 2 riders in the outdoor arena at a time, so figure you had 3-5 minutes to warm up your horse. I think THAT should have been the reason the event should have been called off.
Also, if you think the course was challenging enough for Prelim, then you should also think it was TOO challenging for the lower levels. My vote would have been to run Prelim and Training (figuring more of those riders were trying to qualify for something) and leave Novice and BN as a CT. (I was riding Novice.) I also thought the footing in the indoor was terrible. While they were still setting the course up I walked around and it was hard as cement. Then when they had it set for Novice I walked the course and the footing was SO deep at the end before the first jump I wondered how the horses could jump in it. Likely that's why my horse crawled over the first jump and refused the second. After a 2nd refusal at jump #2 I called it a day.