Sen Ensign on CSPAN 2 NOW..

[jetsmom]

Sen Ensign just took ther floor to ask for a vote on the Ensign/Byrd amend. They are doing a quorum call and should vote in a few min. go look.

[jetsmom]

Sen Ensign just took ther floor to ask for a vote on the Ensign/Byrd amend. They are doing a quorum call and should vote in a few min. go look.

[SafeHorses]

Keeping all fingers and toes crossed!

[certifiedgirl]

thank you for the update!

[nettiemaria]

This sucks - because I'm gonna miss it again! Just like last time. But, maybe that's a good sign, because it passed at the House!

[jetsmom]

I'm lost as to when they will actually vote. Here's what's happened so far...
Sen Ensign spoke about the amendment. Points he made were-
*He used to be a vet and cares about animal welfare, and is against the practice of slaughtering horses for human consump overseas.
* Horses are part of our history, ie George Washington, Paul Revere, Pony Express.
* 65000 horses slaughtered here in US last year by 3 foreign owned slaughterhouses with 100% of the profits going overseas.
*Abuse cases in Illinois dropped during the yr that the slaughter plant was out of operation due to fire. CA abuse cases dropped since 98 when slaughter/transport to slaughter for human consump banned.
* Mayor of Kaufman quoted stating that against slaughter and that the slaughter house in her city is a blight on her community and impedes growth.
* Cited organizations that support the amend to include NTRA, various animal welfare groups and businesses (Churchhill Downs, Inc. etc)
* Explained that this amend takes away funding for USDA inspectors, which would mean that the horse meat can not be sold , hence, eliminates slaughter for human consumption.
* Stated that most horses sold to slaughter are healthy, many racehorses, pets, etc. Often owners of horses sent to auctions have no idea that they are going for slaughter.
* That ending slaughter will not result in an excess of horses/abuse. That those horses currently that would be slaughtered will be kept longer by owners, sold, adopted by rescues, or humanely euthanized. That Euthanasia is about 225.00 and is far less than the monthly upkeep of horses.
* That there is currently a national standard being worked on for horse rescues.


There's probably a lot that I forgot, but that was the bulk of it. They went to quorunm call, and haven't yet voted.

[SafeHorses]

I watched it too...you have a pretty good summary of what he said. Did you happen to catch all the co-sponsors of the amendment? I caught Byrd and Feinstein, but I didn't catch the others...

Seems to me that they are introducing amendments now with a short speech from each senator who is introducing the amendment. I don't know if there will be any debate later or if they go straight to a vote once all the amendments are in.

[jetsmom]

I didn't catch all of the sponsors.

Does anyone familiar with Senate procedures know why they keep having quorum calls? Isn't that basically a roll call? Is there a min # of Senators required to pass an amend or is it that the majority vote wins regardless of the # of Senators present? Do Senators come and go throughout the day, so they have to keep having roll calls to see who is there? If so, why aren't they required to stay until business is completed for the day? Seems like they'd get more accomplished.

[SafeHorses]

I think they go in and out of the chamber attending to other business and the quorum call is a way to stop business on the floor until they get the senators back in the chamber. One thing I can say about this issue...I am getting crash course on how business gets done in the Senate!

[Lildunhorse]

I so appreciate the updates, guys!! I'm stuck here at work w/o tv or radio and you are my only connection to the Senate!
I should have taken a sick day... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[SafeHorses]

Bennett (Utah) just asked that the amendment be voted on at 4:45pm today. They are now calling roll again.

[Marli]

Well, like the rest of you ladies, I've been watching with great interest as well. Geesh, wish I could understand more thoroughly their procedures! Keeping the digits crossed!!!

[jetsmom]

Lildunhorse...too bad you don't have a TV...Sen Ensign is rather good looking.
In fact, if this passes, I'd be willing to go give him a great big kiss. Purely to show my appreciation for the amendment, of course! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Lildunhorse]

If this passes, I'd kiss him even if he resembles the back end of my horse!
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jetsmom:
Lildunhorse...too bad you don't have a TV...Sen Ensign is rather good looking.
In fact, if this passes, I'd be willing to go give him a great big kiss. Purely to show my appreciation for the amendment, of course! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[SafeHorses]

I think (emphasize think) that there will be no debate on the amendment and that it will go for an up or down vote in about 5 or so minutes...

[Marli]

I do believe they're taking the vote right now. Please prayer they've heard our voices!

[SafeHorses]

Yes, the vote is on now...but I don't see anyone in the room. I think these things take about 30 minutes to get done.

[Lion1024]

you can watch it live on cspan.org

[Lion1024]

All have been Aye (sp?) since I've been watching. And I'm proud to say that Sen. Biden (DE) voted Aye as I did some work on his campaign in high school.

[Lion1024]

Someone named Johnson was the first no since I turned it on - anyone know where he is from?

Mrs. Clinton was an Aye!

Craig - no
Bond - no
Roberts - no
Burns - no
darn - missed a no
Enzi - no
Conrad - no
Dorgan - no
Five nos in a row but they were too fast.
enhoff - no
Shelby - no
Thomas - no
Cochran - no
bocus (?) - no
Grassley - no
Sessions - no

On the whole I would say more ayes than no

[jetsmom]

So far Sen Cornyn (TX ), Johnson, Brownbeck -No's.

[libgrrl]

This dude:

Johnson, Tim- (D - SD) Class II
136 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510
(202) 224-5842
Web Form: johnson.senate.gov/emailform.cfm

[SafeHorses]

31 to 5 so far in favor

[SafeHorses]

Looking very good for the amendment passing.

[SafeHorses]

I show that it's 50 ayes

[Procella]

So if this bill stops are the slaughter houses shut down tomorrow or are they phased out?

[jetsmom]

Passed!!!!! 68 aye 29 no

[SafeHorses]

They would no longer have USDA inspectors at the slaughter plants or at the borders to inpect slaugther bound horses starting Oct. 1

final tally 68 ayes, 29 neys

[Marli]

OMG!!!! YES!!!!!!

[Lildunhorse]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif!!!!!!!

[gazenna]

The final vote was 68 ayes and 29 no's Yippy

[SweatySaddlepad]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif GREAT DAY FOR THE HORSES! Finally both my Senators voted AYE, EVEN DURBIN! It's nice when you feel heard!

Side note the Senator from Hawaii sounds like a real animal welfare advocate http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[inca]

I'm ignorant on the subject - so the slaughterhouses can't legally operate without USDA inspectors? Is there going to be enforcement? Will this bill realistically put the slaughterhouses out of business in 11 days?

[jetsmom]

The following Senators voted no. If you are in one of these Senator's districts keep this in mind for re-elction/lobbying for future slaughter issues.
The names may not be spelled correctly, as I am spelling them like they sounded
No's-Bornavitch
Prior
Bingaman (NM)
Salazar
Lincoln
Talent
Stevens
Domenici (NM)
Sessions
Graffly
Bacchus
Cochran
Thomas
Shelby
Enhoff
Dorgan
Conrad
Coburn
Allard
Thune
Kyle
Encie
Crapo
Burns
Roberts
Bombeck (Bombach)
Johnson
Cornyn (TX)
Bond

Sorry for the spelling.

[RainyDayRide]

Hutchinson changed her vote to "aye" after it was clear it was going to pass.. I think Kyle did also.

[jetsmom]

RDR thanks! I heard an "aye" for hutchinson, but thought it was another by the same name. I'll edit my post.

[equinelaundry]

jetsmom: that's "Voinovich" from OH. He sucks and his scorecard sucks too. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif I assume DeWine voted "Aye" - finally - because he's from the county next door and we're a little horsey around here!

This is great news. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[17handtb]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Well done! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Marli]

Here is the full tally of how your representatives voted on the Ensign Amendment Bill that PASSED today!

Ensign Amendment - Votes (http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00237)

[Daydream Believer]

Woohoo! A step forward! Great News.

Did anyone else notice that the Nay's were predominantly Senators from western states? I'm guessing that they are representing ranchers interests?

[jetsmom]

It was interesting to see that Minnesota voted FOR the amendment...and here, I thought they were all a bunch of pro-slaughter people up there...

[EBO]

I have blocked out the name of that piece of dung from Montana--Conrad something. I don't see his name and he wouldn't vote in favor if his life depended on it. Must be in appointment with his (criminal) lawyer. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Do you suppose this means that county will crawl back into his hole?

[Procella]

That piece of dung is no other than Conrad Burns. I used to live in MT and my mother still does - I told her that she better never let me catch her voting for him! She said she never would.

[jetsmom]

Burns voted "No" as did the other Senator from MT.

[2Traks]

I'm sad to see that Cornyn voted no. I voted for him last time and will have to seriously rethink how I vote next time. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[blondy]

What does this mean? Will slaughter houses be forced to shut down?

[Calhoun]

As with Blondy, what does this mean? Will equine slaughter shut down?

[jetsmom]

I'll try to answer, but Gail or someone else could probably do it better.
In order to ship horse meat overseas for human consumption, you must have USDA inspectors present at the slaughter facility. This bill removes the funding for inspectors, so there will be no USDA inspectors. Therefore the meat cannot be shipped overseas for human consumption. Approx 65000 horses are slaughtered ea yr for human consumption. Without a market for the meat, the slaughter houses don't have a reason to exist. This doesn't affect renderers, who take dead livestock and use their parts for other stuff. (But renderers don't slaughter live animals).
As county has pointed out on other threads, the horse slaughter industry is driven by demand for horse meat for overseas human consumption, not because there are too many horses.
It is not cost effective to try to get around the laws and transport to Canada or MX. There are too many drawbacks (See prev slaughter threads).

[Kahuna]

Just an observation - only a handful of senators east of the Mississippi voted "nay".

[Susan P]

My senators from PA voted YES! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif Thank you Sentators Spector and Santorum

[Calhoun]

Question:

Since all 3 of the slaughter plants are foreign owned, what would stop the country owning the plant from putting in their own inspectors (for example, the USDA equivilant for Holland). Can this be done? Is it legal?

[cinder88]

Not to rain on your parade.....If they find some way to find another market for this meat...

Does this mean that they can slaughter in these plants without vet inspection? As in, no-one to make sure it's humane?

What now, will happen to all of these horses that no-one wants? Obviously, there are lots of them...they aren't all feral or whatever.

I'm not in foavour of horse slaughter, per se....I'm just wondered, realistically, what now for these animals?

Cinder

[Susan P]

I doubt that the US would allow foreign inspectors to do the job on our soil. I don't see how that can be legal anymore than we could go onto their soil as officials. Government agents of any kind have to work under the guidance of their host country and that would still require our goverment to oversee them in some capacity.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Calhoun:
Question:

Since all 3 of the slaughter plants are foreign owned, what would stop the country owning the plant from putting in their own inspectors (for example, the USDA equivilant for Holland). Can this be done? Is it legal? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[certifiedgirl]

Both senators from Wa State voted yes and I also heard Boxer from Ca vote "yes" too! We're not all backwards out west! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Susan P]

I'm glad you don't support horseslaughter, it's horrible end to a beautiful animal.

I think this means that those horses who were once cruelly slaughtered will now have to either be humanely euthanized if the need to be and those that were stolen will be safer.

That leaves less horses that actually need homes and the horse community and related businesses will need to step up as does the pet owner who no longer wants any pet. Once you take on the responsibility of owning a domestic animal you are resposible for their life. I think we've always needed to require that this is a committment. For those few animals that would fall through the cracks we have shelters and sanctuaries.


It's an American disgrace that in this wealthy and just country that our animals are too often considered disposable. We must shut down puppy mills and the overbreeding of all companion animals, including horses. It's a matter of holding people personally accountable for their actions.

If we have the will to do this it will happen. This starts on the local level, educating the public is the first step. The animal cop shows are a good start, their very popular. Now we need to educate people about the other causes of animal abuse and neglect.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cinder88:
Not to rain on your parade.....If they find some way to find another market for this meat...

Does this mean that they can slaughter in these plants without vet inspection? As in, no-one to make sure it's humane?

What now, will happen to all of these horses that no-one wants? Obviously, there are lots of them...they aren't all feral or whatever.

I'm not in foavour of horse slaughter, per se....I'm just wondered, realistically, what now for these animals?

Cinder </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[nettiemaria]

OMIGOD! I CAME IN WORK THIS A.M., CHECKED MY E-MAIL, AND I CAN'T BELIEVE IT! I DID NOT THINK IT WOULD PASS! WOW! Poopoo on my senators Talent and Bond! who voted Nay. I'm going to write them about that. Just seems like the money could be better spent, i.e., Hurricane victims, federal deficit.


WOW! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Susan P]

Good idea, tell them they work for you. They should be weary of their next election and get your friends and neighbor to tell them too. Let's watch them squirm. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nettiemaria:
OMIGOD! I CAME IN WORK THIS A.M., CHECKED MY E-MAIL, AND I CAN'T BELIEVE IT! I DID NOT THINK IT WOULD PASS! WOW! Poopoo on my senators Talent and Bond! who voted Nay. I'm going to write them about that. Just seems like the money could be better spent, i.e., Hurricane victims, federal deficit.


WOW! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[nettiemaria]

I'M STILL FREAKING!!!!!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif OMIGOD.

I think I'm going to ride my horse straight up to their office in St. Louis, and ask them why they would allow such a horrid death of such a beautiful creature. Really, I'm gonna do it!

I'm also going to send ANOTHER letter in to the paper, hopefully this one won't be poo-pooed on by AN ANTI-ABORTION ACTIVIST!!!!!!! And tell everyone. Yeah! Yeah!!! Yeah!!!!

[county]

Why would you think evereyone in any state is pro slaughter? Thats not a real bright assuption I think even you would have to admit that if your honest about it.

Now will the oplants actually quit operating Oct 1 is the next question.

[Susan P]

I'm prolife and don't want to see these two issues mixed. There are people on both sides of the abortion issue who are against horseslaughter. I think we should stay away from other issues if we are going to see this through successfully or someone will be put off. Let's remember that we all have our right to our opinions and this is a single issue discussion.


We can agree and celebrate the ending of horse slaughter, can't we? I hope so.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nettiemaria:
I'M STILL FREAKING!!!!!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif OMIGOD.

I think I'm going to ride my horse straight up to their office in St. Louis, and ask them why they would allow such a horrid death of such a beautiful creature. Really, I'm gonna do it!

I'm also going to send ANOTHER letter in to the paper, hopefully this one won't be poo-pooed on by AN ANTI-ABORTION ACTIVIST!!!!!!! And tell everyone. Yeah! Yeah!!! Yeah!!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[nettiemaria]

Who is that statement directed to County?

[county]

The person who decided that everyone in a state thinks the same way

[nettiemaria]

Well, that wouldn't be me then. I did not see THAT post.

[county]

I did

[nettiemaria]

Oh, I see now. Well anyway, http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[county]

It will be interesting to see what happens after the year is up. The plants plant to ask for their own inspectors for a year in which case if approved its business as usual. Does anyone know the plan for when the year is up?

Personally it doesn't change much for most people other then I'm not sure what happens to the mean or dangerous horses other then they get killed just to be dead much like the Humane Society places do now that kill dogs and cats just to get rid of them. Myself I'll still buy neglected horses when I see them but will bwe paying much less as theres just one less avenue to recoup expenses so that others can be bought. Will be interesting to see if this benifits horses or peoples agendas the most

[Susan P]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lildunhorse:
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif!!!!!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

&lt;&gt;&lt; http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif &lt;&gt;&lt;

[nettiemaria]

County, I have an idea. How bout instead of of people trying to "pawn off" these dangerous horses in the first place at auction or via dealer - on some poor unsuspecting person, why don't those people take responsibility for that horse? Can you imagine how many people get hurt when an idiot takes a horse to the local horse dealer to pawn it off, because they don't want to take responsiblity for the horse when people come to look at it, and when the thirty day drugs wear off, that the buyer who went to the dealer GETS SERIOUSLY HURT? I think this will actually protect some buyers, because the dealers won't be taking in these horses anymore, and the responsibility will stay with the person who had the dangerous horse in the first place. The person who "made" the dangerous horse, that is to say that the horse is just not nuts, it SHOULD be their responsibility. IF we all made wiser buying decisions in the first place, then we wouldn't be stuck with these dangerous horses, and we wouldn't NEED to recoup any expenses. This has happened numerous times with a dealer in our area to many people that I know. I'm talking 8 hours of surgery, broken shoulders, legs, arms, concussions, etc. I know for a fact that these particular dangerous horses I am speaking of went through many buyers and back to that same dealer many times, and probably finally made it there, hurting people all along the way. I bought two of them myself. Trying to "recoup" my expense, I took it back to the same dealer and got another one!

[county]

Hey I'm all for that, now tell me how you propse to make it happen? Personally I'd much much more see people take responsability for the kids they breed and abuse. Horses are just an animal that can serve a purpose as food. People are here till there dead and the entire world has to live with them. Child abuse and neglect is about a million times more important to me.

[nettiemaria]

It's GONNA happen because the dealers won't be able to "recoup THEIR expenses" on a dangerous horse. I will be glad when this particular dealer I am speaking of won't be selling these horses to beginner riders, or ANY rider for that fact. I think it's just terrible.

And, if child abuse and neglect is a gazillioin times more important to you - KUDOS TO YOU! Then you realize your calling in life, which is EVEN BETTER. I didn't choose my calling - I certainly don't think it's the most important thing in the world, VERY FAR FROM IT. It's just what I am supposed to do. Don't know why, just is.

[onthebit12000]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
It will be interesting to see what happens after the year is up. The plants plant to ask for their own inspectors for a year in which case if approved its business as usual. Does anyone know the plan for when the year is up?

Personally it doesn't change much for most people other then I'm not sure what happens to the mean or dangerous horses other then they get killed just to be dead much like the Humane Society places do now that kill dogs and cats just to get rid of them. Myself I'll still buy neglected horses when I see them but will bwe paying much less as theres just one less avenue to recoup expenses so that others can be bought. Will be interesting to see if this benifits horses or peoples agendas the most </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

By the time the fiscal "year" is up, we will have passed HR 503 and its Senate bill companion and horse slaughter will be forever banned from our country.

Our legislators have twice now, sent a clear message that they agree with the American people on this issue, that the cruel practice of horse slaughter has no place in our country. In fact, a few senators noted yesterday that they recieved more calls and letters on this issue than they had even on the Roberts Supreme Court nomination!

The slaughter plants can "ask" for their own inpsectors until they are blue in the face, and it will never happen. It is against the Federal Meat Safety Inspection Act for any slaughter plant processing human food to do this. Period. End of story.

Here is a quote from this months The Horse Magazine in which the correct an article they ran last month quoting Cavel's James Tucker as saying that they would just hire their own inspectors...

Bonnie Buntain, DVM, MS, Dipl. ABVP, ACVPM, Chief Public Health Veterinarian, USDA Food Safety and Inspection Service, Office of Field Operations, states: "All establishments slaughtering meat for interstate and international use must have USDA inspection, including meeting all requirements of Humane
Methods of Slaughter Act and its requlations covering livestock (horses are included in this)".

In answer to The Horse's question: Would the lack of that USDA inspector close the slaughter plant? Buntain says " An establishment may not produce meat or poultry products for interstate or international use without USDA inspection of every carcass. If the USDA is not present, the product is not eligible for the USDA seal and therfore is not eligible for export out of the state".

I hope this clears it up for you, County. Please try to garner the facts before posting. Your constant promulgating of the slaughter plants propaganda is getting really old. We are all sick to death of the lies and spin. This is America and if the slaughter plants cant live by our laws and the will of the American people, then they really ought to just simply pack their tack and head on back to the countries they came from.

[county]

So because a horse can't be sold for meat that means that people accross the country are just like that going to take responsability for their horses? Your dreaming, kids can't be sold for meat and that hasn't exactly made people take responsability for them.

[county]

So tell me onthebit do you have as big a problem with others in real life expressing their opinions as you do here? Rather sad if you do I imagine your family and freinds just shrug you off as someone whos obsessed with your own ideas.

[Lildunhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Child abuse and neglect is about a million times more important to me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Human beings are remarkable creatures in that they can have concern for all living things, not just one at a time. We're awesome multi-taskers.
I have advocated loudly to end horse slaughter, while being employed as a victim's advocate for victims of domestic violence, which includes child abuse.
I can tell you that one hasn't taken precedence over the other, nor has one interfered with the effectiveness of the other.
Pretty cool, huh?

[SweatySaddlepad]

Hi Gail so what's the word on HR 503? Any idea when it may come to vote? Are we looking at weeks or months?

[Susan P]

VERY COOL! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lildunhorse:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Child abuse and neglect is about a million times more important to me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Human beings are remarkable creatures in that they can have concern for all living things, not just one at a time. We're awesome multi-taskers.
I have advocated loudly to end horse slaughter, while being employed as a victim's advocate for victims of domestic violence, which includes child abuse.
I can tell you that one hasn't taken precedence over the other, nor has one interfered with the effectiveness of the other.
Pretty cool, huh? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[county]

I don't see anywhere that I said a person can't feel strongly about more then one thing?

[jetsmom]

county, can you link me to the child abuse and neglect message boards where you are posting? I'd love to see what kinds of things you are posting there, and suggestions you are offering. I won't ask you to elaborate on this board since it wouldn't be horse related.

[county]

Who says I posted on one? And why would I give you the loink? Here you've been nothing but insulting to anyone that thinks differantly then you do. You hardly open minded with any thought differant then your own. Your certainly not looking for anything but your own agenda.

[jetsmom]

Can you point out where I've been insulting?? I even referenced one of your points about slaughter on page 3 (about halfway down).
I assumed that because child negect/abuse was a million times more important to you than the slaughter issue, that based on the number of posts here on an issue you don't care as much about, that surely you are voicing your concerns somewhere else. I just can't imagine posting with such frequency or venehmence about a topic I was a million times less interested in, than another topic.

[county]

You would assume alot of things I'm sure. Also sure manuy of them would be wrong.

[Lildunhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Who says I posted on one? And why would I give you the loink? Here you've been nothing but insulting to anyone that thinks differantly then you do. You hardly open minded with any thought differant then your own. Your certainly not looking for anything but your own agenda. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
County, this thread was started by an anti-slaughter supporter, to communicate with other anti-slaughter supporters. Why would you think it unreasonable that people stick to their "agenda" as you call it? I have followed this thread pretty closely and I have yet to remember a post where you changed your position and agreed with an opponent. Does that make you close minded, or just a firm believer in your position?

[county]

When the personal attacks come then IMO so does being close minded. I have no problem with people being anti slaughter as I've said many times. They certainly have the right to their opinion and I;ll fight for that right and have. But when they start attacking me personally then I have no time for them and will not accept it.

Truth is I'll bet money in the last 30 years I've bought more abused and neglected horses and fixed them up then most anyone here. Differance is rather then scream about slaughter I got my hands dirty helping them recover.

[jetsmom]

Again, I'll ask, where have I personally attacked you or insulted you on this thread, county?

[county]

Your joling right? Go back and read all the threads on topic and then tell me that theres not been personal attacks, insults, and snide remarks.

[jetsmom]

I'm not asking if you've ever been attacked, I am responding to your remark that "I" have insulted and attacked you ( To quote you "Here, you've been nothing but insulting to anyone that thinks differantly (sic) then (sic) you do.").

[county]

On other threads you have made your insulting remarks. On this one you asked to see where I posted on forums about child abuse. Why? Because your interested? I don't think so, I think it was because your looking for a way to further your agenda to try and make me beleive your right and I'm wrong about horse slaughter. I could be wrong but in all honesty I really don't think you care one way or another about my veiw on a subject.

[EBO]

I've certainly tried to insult county personally, but I don't think he really ever "got" it. Too subtle, I guess.

[county]

Oh i got it, I just don't feel your bright enough for it to mean anything worth while

[Susan P]

Hey guys, you can't let County steal this thread as he seems to have done AGAIN. This thread is not about County, I don't care what he thinks about this issue, he's said his opinion over 500 times in the past month, who cares?

His boring chatter goes on endlessly stealing the spotlight for himself. Just ignore him and discuss around his posts.

I think if you have a different thought you would start your own thread but I guess it's too much effort.

Please, let's get on with what this thread is about or let it go. Let's not make it the "County Show"

[jetsmom]

I am interested in the pro slaughter views, as it helps me learn where we need to be educating the public and possible loopholes to helping prevent slaughter. You only get that information by hearing what the "other side" of an issue thinks.

I went back through all of the slaughter threads and really don't see any personal attacks from me. I did find one where I posted a "verbal wrist slap" for a post that you did on a thread where the OP was mourning the loss of a sweet mare to slaughter, and I told you that your post lacked empathy and tact, and that you ought to start a new pro-slaughter thread, but I never personally attacked you.
I just don't see the connection between my request for the links to the child/abuse boards and how it could "help my agenda to prove I'm right/you're wrong on the horse slaughter issue". And my agenda isn't to prove I'm right/you're wrong...it's to end horse slaughter, and improve animal welfare. Whether you think I'm right or wrong, is irrelevent to me, except for the reasons I listed regarding knowing how the other side thinks in the first paragraph.

[jetsmom]

Susan P- you're right... we should be celebrating and answering legitimate questions. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[county]

How does one steal from a public forum? If saying the same thing over is bad does that work one way or both? It would seem theres some that just aren't secure enough in their veiws that they feel a differant one is a threat to them. But hey heres an idea if someones breaking the rules of this forum why not have the moderators stop it?

[jetsmom]

There's a really good link by prudence on the "Urgent Action" thread on pg 14, about "Where would all of the horses go?" that answers a lot of the concerns and myths posted here.

[county]

I read that, some I agree with some is myth from their side just as theres myth from the other side. I think the anti slaugher myth I laugh at the most is that slaughter exists cause theres to many horses. If thats true then there really must be to many cattle, hogs, and poultry!!!! ROTFLMAO!!!

[jetsmom]

This is to county and other pro-slaughter poster that feel that they have been attacked on anti-slaughter threads.

I've been thinking of some way to explain why you aren't getting the responses that you'd like and at the same time let you know that we do welcome input on some threads.

I think most of us would agree that there are pros and cons to animal research. If you went over to a dog-lovers board and posted that you are for the use of dogs in animal research (especially if it was on a thread started by an anti-animal research poster) you would get the same negative reaction that you feel you have received here.
Likewise if you went on the ACLU website/forum (if they even have one), and posted a pro-Ayryn/white supremist viewpoint on a thread started by a person of a minority race,celebrating a civil rights victory, you would also not be well received. Doesn't mean you can't post there, but you should know your "audience" and the "feel" of the board you are posting on.
I love hearing about opposing viewpoints and think that it is invaluable to both sides to know how the other side thinks. (A prosecuting attourney can't argue their case without knowing what the defense will argue.) However, if you post on a horse-lovers board, and the majority of the country is against horse slaughter, your chances of being well received on a horse slaughter thread drops...even more so on a thread not asking for debate.
County, I do apologize if I have offended you /insulted you directly. I admit that I truly cannot understand the thought processes of a person who says they love horses but could send one to slaughter, knowing what that entails. I am interested in your side, but also feel, that when you are on a minority side of an issue, on a board that has a majority of it's members on the other side of an issue, you need to exercise a large degree of discretion/self restraint on which posts to post on, if you want to maximize your imact to any favorable degree.

[Brigit]

First of all thanks for the explanation jetsmom, it makes a lot of sense. Although there were some times where we were just stating facts or asking a question, that wasn't intended towards anyone in particular and we got jumped on with both feet. But what you said does make a lot of sense.

For everyone just because we see the purpose for slaughter doesn't mean we aren't horse lovers too.

On the other thread someone mentioned about Canada, we had a short discussion but I figured I'd show everyone this so I can get some feedback. I'm not looking to get a rise out of everyone and I have really tried to keep this as neutral as possible.

I think with our government (Canada's, and yup I'm Canadian) it would take a lot longer and even more hard work (and a cattle prod) than you guys had to do to get anything of that sort accomplished. It's hard to get anything done up here sometimes.

As was mentioned, most states that voted nay were more agricultural. Most of western Canada (manitoba to british columbia) are agricultural, so it might have the same result.

Does anyone know how many slaughterhouses there are currently in the US? How about Canada?

Another tid bit of info for everyone. The canadian border is closed to horses right now at the montana crossings because of a contagious disease outbreak. One of our main slaughterhouses is in Southern Alberta, so that may impede a mass transport of horses into Canada to our slaughterhouse.

I'm curious to what happens now too. I know a lot of Canadian horses were shipped down to the US to be slaughered. Maybe this will smarted up some of those irresponsible horse owners. What is going to happen to all of those extra horses that the meat buyers would have bought at auctions?


So the ensign amendment means that funding for USDA inspectors would be taken away. And meat can't be sold for human consumption without that inspection. So is there a possibility that the slaughterhouses will continue slaughter horses but for dog food or something like that? Also could the slaughterhouses fund their own inspectors?

[jetsmom]

Brigit- I'll try to answer your questions
There are 3 slaughter houses in the US (1 in Illinois, 2 in Texas). I don't know how many in Canada.
The huge majority of horses slaughtered her in the US are slaughtered for human consumption. Most commercial pet foods in the US no longer use horse meat as one of their ingredients. Not sure there would be much of a market/profit margin to make them start doing so.
The slaughter plants cannot hire private inspectors as any meat shipped overseas for human consumption must be inspected by USDA inspectors that work for the government.

[Susan P]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">For everyone just because we see the purpose for slaughter doesn't mean we aren't horse lovers too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I think it's a contradiction to say you love horses and allow them to be brutally killed in what is essentially a torture chamber when there are options.

1. Euthanasia

2. Shoot them in the head with a very good and careful aim. (You can still eat your horse if you really want to http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif)

3. Turn them over to be adopted or give them away yourself.

4. Offer them as a free lease.

You may have to advertise for some of these choices but you might just need to put the word out in the horse community and start in this BB. There is a Giveaway section on this BB.

[Brigit]

Jetsmom, thanks for the civil response. See Susan P's example if you would like to see the "jumped on with both feet" response type I described.

[nettiemaria]

Perhaps it has something to do with your PETA signature. (hint hint)

[Brigit]

Well my siggy has nothing to do with this topic. I took it off for awhile but I figure if other people can't be courteous then I won't return that bit of courtesy.

[nettiemaria]

Maybe that's because you were talking of cutting their legs off FIRST (as you typed FIRST) before cutting their throats, and THEN added your PETA signature. Eeeeek.

[Brigit]

nettiemaria; No no, you completely misunderstood me. I can see how that would sound completely horrific. What I meant was that at least they are knocked out before all that happens. That would be truly cruel. Really honestly sorry for the the misunderstanding.

[nettiemaria]

Okay, truce, it doesn't matter, I guess. It did sound horrible though, I was just thinking Omigod!

[Brigit]

Deal! I can totally see why that upset you. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[MSP]

I would like to know why anyone who loves horses or who dosn't eat horse meat would be for slaughtering them? Why don't we have dog and cat slaughter plants? We don't slaughter them and sell the meat to Asia! Horses deserve the respect we give our other companion animals. Cattle, pigs and sheep are consumed in this country horses are not. For me it is that simple. I never want to see any horse die before their time never mind to be exported as meat.

[Marli]

None of the slaughterplants IN the U.S. are OWNED by Americans, they're ALL foreign owned-

U.S. Slaughterplants (http://www.ultimatehorsesite.com/savehorses/contacts.html)

[Susan P]

It's just not true that all slaughtered animals are knocked unconscious before being carved up. Some are not knocked out and the assembly line continues. We know that many times horses heads have been discovered with multiple bolts. Just try to get a halter on an unwilling horse, they no how to duck and weave.

Horses are dismemberred fully conscious sometimes. How many times does it take before we find it abhorrent?

There were many great horses that once knew fame and glory and met their end in the gruesome slaughterhouse. Many pampered horses and much loved companion horses have met the same end as do young foals to be mixed up into Foal Stew, a Hungarian specialty. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

I don't eat veal either, we can certainly wait for the poor cow to grow up a little. There are kinder ways to slaughter any meat animal too. http://certifiedhumane.org/

But horses are not food animals, they are beasts of burden, and carry us, they are transportation too. They are for sport, pleasure and certainly they are beauty on hoof, not meat.

[county]

I think the thing some of you fail to understand is livestock producers aren't going to kill or give away their stock just to get rid of it. Makes as much sense as if you were going to take your paycheck each week and burn it.

As far as someone not understanding how a person can love livestock and still be in favor of slaughter I don't understand how they can't so whats the differance?

[county]

So Jetsmom, are you saying that if someones in a minority that its OK for the majority to attack them personally. Its OK to attack their opinions because there differant then the majority? You say " we ' are interested in what people on the " other " side have to say. You could sure fool me theres an awful lot of the so called " wes " that I don't think agree with you. If a number of them are part of your " we ' you can keep them I wouldn't want thatt type to be considered part of me for any reason.

[onthebit12000]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
So tell me onthebit do you have as big a problem with others in real life expressing their opinions as you do here? Rather sad if you do I imagine your family and freinds just shrug you off as someone whos obsessed with your own ideas. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

County,

You were NOT expressing an opinion when you stated that the "plants plan to ask for their own inspectors". You were delivering yet more horse slaughter plant propaganda!

I have no problem with anyone expressing their opinion, on any issue at any time. I do however have a problem with people (such as yourself) who promulgate lies and propaganda.

You have claimed repeatedly on this forum that you have been employed in the slaughter industry. If this is so, why then would you even make such a ridiculous statement? Have you never heard of the Federal Meat Safety Inspection Act? Seem so me that someone who works in the slaughter industry should at the very least have an understanding of the laws that pertain to the industry they work in.

[county]

Yes I've heard of it so whats your point? And whats the lie? You seem to make things up as you go

[Susan P]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Seem so me that someone who works in the slaughter industry should at the very least have an understanding of the laws that pertain to the industry they work in. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not when you're at the bottom rung.

[county]

Why not Susan? And what exactly is the bottom rung?

[county]

BTW Susan I beleive your the one thats told everyone not to post to me? Whats the matter can't take your own advice or can't pass up a chance to try to insult someone? How pathetic but thats been your mode from the start.

[Susan P]

Taunting children are best left ignored. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[county]

Which describes tou to a T. To bad your not bright enough to converse like an adult.

[cinder88]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Why don't we have dog and cat slaughter plants? We don't slaughter them and sell the meat to Asia! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We DO have dog and cat slaughter plants. It's called the Humane Society. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

Secondly, obviously it wouldn't be financially viable to slaughter small animals with little meat per carcass and ship it to Asia.

Again, I'm not pro-horse slaughter, but there has to be a realistic examination of WHY horse slaughter happens. And, what it will mean for all those involved, IE: horses/owners/meat exporters, that this law is passed.

When large dollars are involved and an "industry" is effectively ended, a lot of people are going to fight for their jobs and livelihood. I'll bet it ain't over, yet, and it isn't going to stop, IMO.

You may very likely see the Canadian borders opening to more shipments of US animals destined for slaughter.

So, now, not only do these animals still go to slaughter, they also have to endure a long, packed trailer trip to get there.

The one good thing may be that the Canadian laws are more strict on humane slaughter and the inspectors have more far-reaching power over what the plants do.

As you may have guessed, I am involved in an industry that daily slaughters thousands of animals for food. Both chicken and beef cattle, in Canada, and have seen first hand the steps taken to avoid pain/fright for these animals. Not saying that pain and fright doesn't happen, over the course.....

I've also toured chicken and beef cattle plants in the States.

I don't BUY US meat, anymore. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

It's lovely to think that these animals owners are suddenly going to "see the light" and decide to take care of the animals, as they deserve....But, don't hold your breath.

THEN what happens?

Again, I am NOT pro horse slaughter, but I believe that the issue is going to be much more far-reaching than a lot of people have thought of.

Cinder
PS, just 'cause it is BUGGING ME!...."your" means that something belongs to you. If you mean to say "You are", then please type it "you're", as in...."You're driving me crazy using incorrect spelling in your sentences, over and over...." http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[county]

But its not bothering me in the least.

[SweatySaddlepad]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cinder88:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Why don't we have dog and cat slaughter plants? We don't slaughter them and sell the meat to Asia! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We DO have dog and cat slaughter plants. It's called the Humane Society. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

Secondly, obviously it wouldn't be financially viable to slaughter small animals with little meat per carcass and ship it to Asia.

Again, I'm not pro-horse slaughter, but there has to be a realistic examination of WHY horse slaughter happens. And, what it will mean for all those involved, IE: horses/owners/meat exporters, that this law is passed.

When large dollars are involved and an "industry" is effectively ended, a lot of people are going to fight for their jobs and livelihood. I'll bet it ain't over, yet, and it isn't going to stop, IMO.

You may very likely see the Canadian borders opening to more shipments of US animals destined for slaughter.

So, now, not only do these animals still go to slaughter, they also have to endure a long, packed trailer trip to get there.

The one good thing may be that the Canadian laws are more strict on humane slaughter and the inspectors have more far-reaching power over what the plants do.

As you may have guessed, I am involved in an industry that daily slaughters thousands of animals for food. Both chicken and beef cattle, in Canada, and have seen first hand the steps taken to avoid pain/fright for these animals. Not saying that pain and fright doesn't happen, over the course.....

I've also toured chicken and beef cattle plants in the States.

I don't BUY US meat, anymore. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

It's lovely to think that these animals owners are suddenly going to "see the light" and decide to take care of the animals, as they deserve....But, don't hold your breath.

THEN what happens?

Again, I am NOT pro horse slaughter, but I believe that the issue is going to be much more far-reaching than a lot of people have thought of.

Cinder
PS, just 'cause it is BUGGING ME!...."your" means that something belongs to you. If you mean to say "You are", then please type it "you're", as in...."You're driving me crazy using incorrect spelling in your sentences, over and over...." http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would really like to know some first hand accounts of the differences between the slaughter process in Canada vs the US. Could you explain in more detail please?

[Estelle]

For those of you wondering about if it will stop horses from being shipped to Canada or other countries to be slaughtered, yes it will, here is what it says:


H.R. 503, The American Horse Slaughter Prevention Act (AHSPA)
To amend the Horse Protection Act to prohibit the shipping, transporting, moving, delivering, receiving, possessing, purchasing, selling, or donation of horses and other equines to be slaughtered for human consumption, and for other purposes.

[county]

On paper that sounds great, in reality though will it be enforced? I have no reason to think it will. There 1000's of miles of border with Can. and Mex. Theres drugs and illegal aliens that cross everyday and the Border Patrol admits they don't make a dent in catching them. Why would they with horses. The people selling horses over borders aren't exactly going to be pulling into any port autority points. There going to be using the 1000's of back roads on the borders from one end of this country to the other top and bottom.

[Susan P]

As much as I hate the kill shelters (oxymoron)at least the dogs aren't going through a slaughterhouse, it's more of death row with a chance of reprieve. They usually don't see each other being killed either and they are not sliced up into pieces. Also there is no high profits for their meat to be sold so they aren't actively seeking animals to kill as in the horse slaughter industry. It's not a good thing and there are changes being made in the shelters, some of them at least.

This is not to say I approve or like what's going on in the killing animal shelters. If I wasn't so involved in helping horses now I would be involved with the small animals. My husband prefers not to have animals in the house so I am limiting the number of indoor animals, horses work better for me at this time. I now only have 4 indoor pets.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">We DO have dog and cat slaughter plants. It's called the Humane Society. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[SweatySaddlepad]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
On paper that sounds great, in reality though will it be enforced? I have no reason to think it will. There 1000's of miles of border with Can. and Mex. Theres drugs and illegal aliens that cross everyday and the Border Patrol admits they don't make a dent in catching them. Why would they with horses. The people selling horses over borders aren't exactly going to be pulling into any port autority points. There going to be using the 1000's of back roads on the borders from one end of this country to the other top and bottom. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh come on County that's just not logical.........Horses are 1000 lbs and certainly NOT worth the money drugs are, drugs are so much easier to hide than a truck load of horses. Horses will NOT become a huge illegal black market, won't happen. That argument won't ever fly. As for the illegal aliens, most are trying to improve their lives, they live in less than poverty, horrid conditions, they will do anything for a better life including risking their own. So of course there will always be scum to prey on them. There is ALWAYS scum that will do ANYTHING FOR MONEY! All laws are broken, that doesn't mean we shouldn't pass them and enforce them to the best of our ability. We need to lead by example and hopefully our children will learn the true meaning of a kinder, gentler Nation, we are so falling short on every level http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif.

[county]

Thats one opinion then theres otrhers. Horses aren't exactly hard to cross the border with like I said I can take you to any number of places to do so. And its a whole lot closer to take them into Can. or Mex. then the U.S. plants for many places in this country. And you make a very good point many people in Mex. are very poor and will do anything to improve their lives. Including hauling horses to kill plants in Mex. Theres been many hauled out of Ca. into sothern Az. then Mex. ever since Ca. outlawed slaughter. Even the authorities in Ca, have admitted that. Why would it surprise anyone that will increase?

[Daydream Believer]

One point you all are missing about horses being shipped to Canada is that currently horses are being shipped FROM Canada to the US for slaughter...so much for an excess horse problem here in the US. It makes you wonder how many of the 60,000 actually are American horses. I suspect those Canadian horses will stay on their side of the border now and be shipped to the existing Canadian slaughterhouses. I strongly suspect that there won't be a lot of extra capacity left over for American horses unless they build more plants.

I can't speak for Mexico but there is some possibility some horses will be hauled down there that aren't now. Hopefully the slaughter bill can be passed quickly to stop any legal exportation into either country.

[county]

Take a look at what a joke enforcement of the Coggins test requirement turned out to be. No thought or funding as to enforcement I don't see any on the slaughter bill either. Both were in place to apease people

[county]

Theres horses shipped both ways, the shippers are going to wherever its closest from their start point. Cattle the same way the price of fuel its more so now then ever. Also alot depends on kill floor capacity at the time. If one plant is really busy they have to go to another one.

[Brigit]

A thought I just had. The amendmant stops horses from being shipped to canada or the us for the purpose of slaughter. Wouldn't it be possible for the "seller" and the "shipper" to still bring those horses over the borders for the purpose of selling them at an auction? I don't think anybody can say where they sell the horses as long as they don't go directly to slaughter. Couldn't they still end up there?

[Lildunhorse]

Wouldn't they need Coggins and Health papers to do that?

[county]

Why can't they get either one?

[Lildunhorse]

I didn't say they couldn't. I was asking if they needed them.

[county]

Oh I'm not sure what the canadian laws are as far as auction horses. To get legally across the border they need them. But thats not a problem at all I get coggins and health papers to go into Can. all the time. And I see nothing in this ammendment that says someone can't haul a load of horses legally into Can. or Mex. and sell them. This looks more and more like the coggins requirments. Lots of holes in it that no one sat down and spent time looking at.

[Lildunhorse]

I've had three horses brought down from Canada on a load of 25 or so. Seems like it took forever to get them across the border! But then, most of the horses on that load were either Norwegian Fjords or Belgians, and the individuals from both breeds look so much alike, it probably made it pretty difficult.

[terrygean]

I am a over the road truck driver and it is not so easy to cross boarders with trucks. And yes illegals & drugs cross boarders but illegals have nothing to loose if caught. And drug dealers make a good income breaking the law. Most slaughter horse haulers aren't going to risk breaking the law for a load of horses. Remember committing a crime in a commercial vechicle is alot worst than committing a crime in a pick-up or car. Their are Federal Motor carrier regulations. I suggest everyone ignore county and people like him that suggest loads of horses are going to go over the boarder. That's simply a lie, a scare tactic. Same you county.

[Susan P]

Thanks for the info Terrygean. My husband fixes the big trucks and used to drive a flat bed. I went with him a couple times, I guess it's not for me. It's not just like taking a road trip, you're always in a hurry to get somewhere only to wait around to be loaded or unloaded. We have a garage here in PA and get local truckers and truckers from all over the country and even Canada, this is mushroom country so these mushrooms go everywhere. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[county]

So terrygean can you explain to me how someones opinion is a lie? If thats the case then your a liar.

[county]

BTW terrygean theres loads of horses going over the borders now I don't see why it will stop. This bill says nothing about not allowing horses out of the country, only not to slaughter plants.

[Lildunhorse]

Brigit's question is a good one. It begs for discussion. I don't think it's a scare tactic at all; I think it might be a real possibility. But I'd like to know more about the cost effectiveness of it.

[county]

Alot will depend on current price and number of miles hauled as far as if its cost effective. Hauling from here in Mn. to Can. is clser then to U.S. plants. The current market is in a down swing right now when its back to its peak meat prices will be more then double what they are now. Then hauling longer distances will be more cost effective.

[Lildunhorse]

Well, I'm in Northern Washington State, and Fort McCleod isn't that far away. I'd say maybe 8 hours tops.
So if meat prices are low right now, would it make sense to take a load through, at $35 a pop for the coggins, plus the border fees, fuel, which is close to or above $3 a gallon, (more for diesel)? The other thing that I think about is the saturation of the market in Western Canada with the BC ranchers all losing their PMU contracts.

[county]

Totally depends on each producer and how much profit margin they operate on same as any business. Most vets here at least give a big break on coggins if you have large numbers and a teast at full price is $18. Meat price for primes here is only mid .40's. But when the market cycle goes back up in the mid 90's then profit margins go up dramatically on a truck load.

[terrygean]

County , where are your facts to back up your opinion? You are always making statements about so many different thing pertaining to the issue of horse slaughter, but you never mention your sources so someone can check you statements out to be true or false. And I think that I know alot more about the trucking industry than you do. It will not be easy or profitable for people to haul horses for slaughter. And some owner/shippers don't transport their own horses to the plants they broker their load with livestock hauling company's. I don't think that they are going to take the risk for someone else. The Dept of trans. fines are alot higher the the USDA's fines for violations. Please call Dr. Cordes & the DOT and discuss these matters with them, so you will be poperly informed.

[terrygean]

County, As a matter of fact I have 3 way calling and if you give me your phone # I will even call Cordes and the Dept. of Trans. & you. Then we could clear this matter of transporting horses over the boarder once and for all. How about a little education on my dime?

[county]

Facts for my opinionms? The facts are my opinions. If its not profitable to haul horses for slaughter or auction why do they do it now? I hardly think to lose money. And what risk? If there hauling legally whats the risk?

[county]

Call and ask them if you want. What exactly is illegal about hauling horses over the Can. border I've done it for years

[Lildunhorse]

There's nothing illegal about it and that's what worries me. But I think now with the PMU situation the way it is, not too many American horses will be crossing the borders into Canada. Not grade horses, anyway. I suppose that could be wishful thinking.

[gazenna]

Country, I noticed you wrote you have hauled horses to Canada for years. Are you a horse trader or a kill buyer, and truck driver in your spare time? I had made a decision to not talk to you again, but I just had to ask that question since you made that statement......

[terrygean]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Call and ask them if you want. What exactly is illegal about hauling horses over the Can. border I've done it for years </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have called. I have been calling and FOIAing state and Federal agencies for years. I have been attending a slaughter auction in my state alot. I've done my homework. I don't just state my opinion. And like I said I know the trucking industry, I'm not worried about horses being sent over the borders for slaughter or for auction and then slaughter.

[county]

No i'm a breeder in north central Mn. sell alot of horses to customers in Can. and when selling to Europe they transport out of Can.

BTW I didn't think for a minute you were serious about not talking. Figured at any possable opening you could throw a insult or maybe a chance for a snide remark you'd never pass it up.

[county]

And why don't you feel horses will go over the borders in Can. and Mex. for auction/ they do now, why would they stop?

[terrygean]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
When the personal attacks come then IMO so does being close minded. I have no problem with people being anti slaughter as I've said many times. They certainly have the right to their opinion and I;ll fight for that right and have. But when they start attacking me personally then I have no time for them and will not accept it.

Why would you buy neglected horses and spend money to fix them up when I'm sure I seen you post before that you have sold horses for slaughter???? Makes no sence to me.



Truth is I'll bet money in the last 30 years I've bought more abused and neglected horses and fixed them up then most anyone here. Differance is rather then scream about slaughter I got my hands dirty helping them recover. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[terrygean]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
And why don't you feel horses will go over the borders in Can. and Mex. for auction/ they do now, why would they stop? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The horses that are going out of US to Canada for slaughter are hauled by dealers that have contracts with the Canadian slaughter houses. Your comment about dealers hauling their horses to the closest plant is BS. Sugarcreek, Oh hauls to Texas (because LeRoy Baker has a contract with those plants) it would be closer for him to haul from Oh to Quebec. Bovery of Canada purchased apx. 2000 horses from my state OHIO last yr. Wonder why he didn't get them from Canada? So you see their are only so many people in the business. I am sure people will be watching. I know I will in my state & on the highways while I am working. It will be more hassle for them than it is worth. Believe me it will.

[Lildunhorse]

I know a lady who goes up to BC and buys saddle horses at auction, then brings them back down to sell. I guess there's quite a market there, buying selling and trading. It makes me wonder if she ever takes some back up?

[county]

Why? Because I feel every animal should have a chance at knowing what good life is like be it even if its a short time. Makes no sense to you but it does to me and that to me is all that matters. I don't do it for someone else to make sense of.

[county]

And the order buyers here haul to Tx. Ill. or Can which ever place is the closest and taking horses at that time. I've hauled horses to Can that went to sales. Why would it be more hassle now then before? Not saying it won't just asking why the differance?

[terrygean]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Facts for my opinionms? The facts are my opinions. If its not profitable to haul horses for slaughter or auction why do they do it now? I hardly think to lose money. And what risk? If there hauling legally whats the risk? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How can opinions be facts? OK direct me to the sorces of your opinion/facts, so I know they are true. But keep talking about those trucking issues. I live in a house full of truckers and you are amusing us quite a bit.

[terrygean]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by county:
And the order buyers here haul to Tx. Ill. or Can which ever place is the closest and taking horses at that time. I've hauled horses to Can that went to sales. Why would it be more hassle now then before? Not saying it won't just asking why the differance?[/QUOTE

Are you hauling in an 18 wheeler?????

[county]

Like I said the source of my opinion is me. Do you ever have an opinion of your own or only someone elses? Glad your amused though you don't seem like the type that gets much of that.

[Lildunhorse]

Just wondering, when you haul horses across the border and they have coggins and health certs, do they ask you your purpose? When you take them to sales, the papers won't have a buyers name on them. How do you get across without a buyers name and social security number? The rescues that I got from Canada all had to have the papers with my name and ss# on them to get across to this side. What do they need on that side?
I wish we had a couple of Canadian folks that would be willing to help with the answers.

[county]

No I haul my horses in a stock trailer. The two guys that feed horses here large stock trailers not sure how long 30 some feet I know but can't remember excact size.

[terrygean]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Why? Because I feel every animal should have a chance at knowing what good life is like be it even if its a short time. Makes no sense to you but it does to me and that to me is all that matters. I don't do it for someone else to make sense of. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I feel evey animal should have a good life before death. I am against factory farming because the animals don't have a life. I just saying with horses it would not be economical to pay to rehab one & then sell to slaughter. You must be very wealthy. Maybe I need to give up trucking and become a farmer.

[terrygean]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
No I haul my horses in a stock trailer. The two guys that feed horses here large stock trailers not sure how long 30 some feet I know but can't remember excact size. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Make sure you have a DOT # on your truck when pulling that trailer. It is a Federal Reg. & something that I have been pushing the DOT to enforce. I have mentioned it to my Congressman & Senators that many duallys & stock trailers are running around without them & it is a law on the books that needs to be enforced. If your over 26,000 # GVWR you need a log book, medical card, drug testing and many other things.

[terrygean]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by terrygean:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
No I haul my horses in a stock trailer. The two guys that feed horses here large stock trailers not sure how long 30 some feet I know but can't remember excact size. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Make sure you have a DOT # on your truck when pulling that trailer. It is a Federal Reg. & something that I have been pushing the DOT to enforce. I have mentioned it to my Congressman & Senators that many duallys & stock trailers are running around without them & it is a law on the books that needs to be enforced. If your over 26,000 # GVWR you need a log book, medical card, drug testing and many other things. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If your 10,000# GVWR you only need the DOT#, but if the trailers are 30 ft it sounds like you need all of the other stuff also.

[luvmytbs]

thanks terrygean for coming on board and giving us some much needed facts in the trucking area.

according to a friend of mine, who travels a lot with her one horse, she is now required to get a health certificate for each state she drives through. she is going to two different states this weekend and the healthcertificates (good for 30 days) cost her $45.

[Susan P]

Yes Terrygean, you've made some useful points and not just about trucking. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I sent you a PT.

[county]

I must be very wealthy? Depends on ones idea of wealthy. Mine has nothing to do with money some things are more important to some people then a money figure.

[county]

BTW terrygean I had no idea I sold to slaughter you seem to make things up as you go

[montanamanda]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
And the order buyers here haul to Tx. Ill. or Can which ever place is the closest and taking horses at that time. ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is hard for me to believe. I know the killer buyers have contracts with particular slaughterhouses. If not then they are more or less walk-ins or drive ups or drop offs. (whatever you want to call it). They do not make anywhere near the same money as the contracted kill buyers. The kill buyers also have to have a certain amount (# of horses or weight) per truckload.

[onthebit12000]

So County, you stated you've hauled horses over the border for years. If this is true, then you will know that each non-slaughter bound horse must have not only a coggins and health certificate, but also a USDA signature and seal at a cost of $38.00 each.


One very important aspect that you seem to be leaving out of the equation is...
P-R-O-F-I-T!

Not only would kill buyers have to purchase coggins and health certificates on every horse they are supposedly sending over the borders as "riding horses", they would also need to purchase USDA export certificates at $38.00 each. In order to obtain these, they have to actually drive to a USDA facility thus adding to their already high costs. I hardly think they are going to hold horses at their feedlots, pay a veterinarian to come out and pull coggins, and issue a health certificate, drive their paperwork all the way to a USDA headquarters, only to sell their "riding horses" at a loss in Canada or Mexico.

The price of fuel alone is taking a huge chunk out of their profit margins, not to mention the fact that they will be taking a loss on currency exchange rates by reselling their horses abroad. Furthermore, the plants in Mexico pay next to nothing for horses, because only 1 Mexican plant is approved by the EU to export horsemeat for human consumption. Same with Canada, they pay far less than the US plants, and there are only 2 who are approved for export for human consumption.

So that said, and with the already narrow profit margin even further decreased, it is not likely that many will try to thwart the law.

[onthebit12000]

Oh, and just another little FYI...

Feedlots are classified as "slaughter facilities" in the definition of "Equine for slaughter" from Subchapter 2, Section
902 "Definitions" of the Federal Agriculture Improvement and Reform Act
of 1996 (7 U.S.C. §1901 note; Public Law 104-127), one of the laws
affected by the amendment, which states:

"SEC. 902. DEFINITIONS.
"In this subtitle:

"(2) Equine for slaughter. - The term 'equine for slaughter'
means any member of the Equidae family being transferred to a
slaughter facility, including an assembly point, feedlot, or
stockyard.

This is available at http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/7C48.txt

So, the killers will not be able to use feedlots as outposts or fronts
to continue shipping horses for slaughter either inside or outside the
US.

[county]

I'ver gotten an awful lot of USDA signatures and never drove to get one yet. Send all my paperwork via the U.S. postal Service to St. paul and they mail them back. And as I already said tough to make a profit that way with .40 a lb horses. When the nmarket swing is back in the .90's makes it a whole lot easier.

[onthebit12000]

County, I believe that Bouvry and Richelieu are only paying 10-20 cents per pound for walk ins.
I havent called in a while, but that is where they were at appx. 60 days ago.

I doubt that the feedlots will be willing to pay anymore than that given the fact that the demand for horsemeat in the EU is ever decreasing.

[county]

Could be but then I've been hearing since the 60's that slaughter prices will never go back up. But they always do same as every type horse. Price cycles are very normal in all livestock species, always have been. Thats why breeding and raising them for a living isn't for the faint of heat.

[Brigit]

lildunhorse: I'm canadian. I may not have all the answers but ask away and I'll do my best to find them for you.
I don't think you need to have signed papers of ownership (from the buyer) if you are transporting a horse across the border. There are lots of sales in Montana that we bring horses down to and that americans bring horses up to in Alberta, BC and Saskatchewan. And I'm pretty sure that most people don't know who they're going to sell their horse to before the sale.
I know to transport a horse to the US, it needs a coggins test, vet check/health certificate for sure. I don't know what a horse needs to come up to canada however.

Another question about horses being shipped up to Canada. Say you have some guy with a truckload of horses taking them up to canada to an auction (which will more than likely be bought for slaughter). Since he's crossing the border into canada, and we don't have the same rules would the US regulations still apply? I'm just thinking that because it's the canadians that are inspecting the truckload. So could they still come across no problem? I know our rules apply to Americans bringing horses into Canada and US rule apply to Canadians bringing horses over the border.

Would the rules still apply to a canadian that comes down to the US to purchase truckloads of horses to bring back up to canada?

It does seem that this bill will make transporting horses a bit more expensive. But if what County says is true, that a vet certificate and coggins can be done for say $50/horse. In the scheme of things for a horse that will bring $500 - $1000 from the slaughter plants, that doesn't seem like that much.


I just had an interesting though. I'm going to email someone from the AFRD (canada's regulatory body for this type of thing) and see what they believe will be the impacts of the US bill. And I'll post the reply when I get one.

[luvmytbs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brigit:



In the scheme of things for a horse that will bring $500 - $1000 from the slaughter plants,


</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You do not get 500 to 1000 per horse from a slaughter plant. Only the usable meat is being paid for and depending to the going rates mentioned before, you can figure what a horse will bring you, then deduct all the expenses getting the horse and taking it to a plant (fuel etc)

[Brigit]

luvmytbs: How do you know this? I'm not trying to be snide I really want to know how you know?

Here's a scenario for you. A meat buyer has to buy the horse first off, say the going horsemeat price is $0.45/lb, which is quite low. For a 1200lb animal the meat buyer pays $540. Now the meat buyer has to make some money on that. So I imagine with the price of fuel, feed etc the slaughterhouse pays them more than $540 for each horse.

[county]

You don't get $500 to $1000 from a slaughter plant? Totally depends on price and weight. When price is high its very easy to get that and more.

[Brigit]

Can someone post the link to the bill? I can't seem to find it.

Thanks!

[luvmytbs]

Brigit,

that would be a question for someone more familiar with the prices.
I know at the auction I go to, they buy the horses for sometimes $200. You can buy a big horse there from the kill buyer for $550, which will give him a big profit already. So if he was to get a whole lot more from a plant he wouldn't sell them as cheap to a private individual.

[luvmytbs]

When we spoke to the plants a while back, they told us, they do NOT pay for the weight of an entire horse, the head, legs and other parts are disposed of. We were told that for a 1100 pound horse, depending on the breed, they would only be able to use 600 pounds. And that's what the kill buyers get paid for. That's the info we got from the slaughter house directly.

[county]

Alot depends on age and condition of the horse. Last month at Corsica meat prices were from .10 to .49, the top prices were for younger horses many which will be tryed out as riders. If they can resell for riders they make more money. If they can't they go for meat some are bought and money is actually lost on. The goal is like any business, make a profit at the end. Just because a volume buyer takes say 30 head his goal isn't to profit on every 30. Its to profit on the package, hopefully he'll profit on each one. Realistically he knows thats probably not going to happen. The big thing for him/her is to not take any more loss on one then need be.

[Brigit]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by luvmytbs:
Brigit,

that would be a question for someone more familiar with the prices.
I know at the auction I go to, they buy the horses for sometimes $200. You can buy a big horse there from the kill buyer for $550, which will give him a big profit already. So if he was to get a whole lot more from a plant he wouldn't sell them as cheap to a private individual. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why not? They're still making a profit either way. Besides I'm sure they're not against selling a horse to a private buyer, why not see it go to a home?

Maybe it's different up here but they charge per lb for the entire horse. I bought a few from the meat buyer's feedlot. The fillies were 800lbs and we paid for ever pound. Not just the body. Maybe it's different down in the US.

[county]

luvmytbs, thats the way many cattle plants pay also. But buying at sales etc. its a live weight sale. The meat buyers regardless of species can tell you within a few lbs what an animal carcass will weight. They know what the dressed weight price is and bid accordingly on the live animal. I can tell you within a few lbs what a live beef will dress out by looking at it for instance.

[luvmytbs]

Brigit:
of course to a private party they will charge a lot more then what they would get from the plant.

County:
Correct, live weight, however, they will pay very little at these auctions to the people bringing in the horses, in most cases, folks who have no clue who they just received $200 from for their beloved horse.
Then there are middlemen I call them who travel to the farms and buy them up cheap ( I am talking $100) take them to the auction, stuff that horse in the kill pen and get 50 or 100 more from the kill buyer.

I guess we were discussing the point of how much the plants will pay them per horse. It is not 500 to 1000 dollars! If you have 600 usable pounds at $0.45 then you only get $270 for that horse.

[county]

Like i said totally depends on the price at the time. Some horses bring over .45 some bring up into the $1.00 a lb dress weight and higher. Market goes up and down just like every other species of livestock. If a horse dresses out 900 to 1200 lbs and gets in the high 90's thats alot better price then 600 at .45

[county]

BTW I don't know about the auctionns you go to but the ones I go to the seller doesn't have to sell a beloved horse or one it hates for $200. Totally up to the seller if they sell or not.

[Brigit]

The meat buyers that I know don't charge any more for a horse to private sellers than to anywhere else.
I'm pretty sure that the meat buyers get more than $270 per horse. That doesn't even seem slightly profitable. And from what I've seen, all the meat buyers I know seem to be making quite the profit.

[montanamanda]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brigit:
The meat buyers that I know don't charge any more for a horse to private sellers than to anywhere else.
I'm pretty sure that the meat buyers get more than $270 per horse. That doesn't even seem slightly profitable. And from what I've seen, all the meat buyers I know seem to be making quite the profit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

WOW Things sure are different where you are. I have never seen a killbuyer NOT charge more to a private buyers and 270 seems to be about the going price for healthy kill horses here in Montana. I attend the Billings horse sale. It has the biggest loose horse sale in the USA. Before I moved back here from texas I attended the Stephenville Horse Auction that caters to the kill buyers. They are within a couple of hours from both Texas slaughter houses. Same story there too.

[county]

How come Billings and Corsica borth keep claiming to have the biggest loose horse sale in the U.S.? They both can't, I;'ve never figured that out. Been to both personally I thi nk Corsica does now but there close to each other. Was at Corsica last month and $270 was pretty low for healthy loose horses. Haven't gotten the sale average yet but there were some over $1000 that went for riders. I think top meat price was .49 Canners were a .10

[terrygean]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
BTW terrygean I had no idea I sold to slaughter you seem to make things up as you go </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

On one of your posts back on Aug 9, 2005 you said their is 1 to 2% culled in the livestock business. And you have said that you breed & raise horses. I thought that animals that are culled are sent to slaughter. Am I mistaken?

[montanamanda]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
How come Billings and Corsica borth keep claiming to have the biggest loose horse sale in the U.S.? They both can't, I;'ve never figured that out. Been to both personally I thi nk Corsica does now but there close to each other. Was at Corsica last month and $270 was pretty low for healthy loose horses. Haven't gotten the sale average yet but there were some over $1000 that went for riders. I think top meat price was .49 Canners were a .10 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I don't know why they both claim to have the largest loose horse auctions, you will have to email and ask them. As far as riders go I am not talking about those, those were bringing very good multi thousand dollar prices for well bred, well trained performance horses, even saw on no-saled for 22,000.00. I am talking loose horses that are not ridden in or represented in any way, run through like cattle. They had over 300 in the July sale, they cancelled the Aug and Sept sale due to a V S outbreak. Their next sale is at the end of October which is past the date that the new amendment is to kick in. Should be a very interesting sale, also wonder what is to become of the hundreds of horses at the Canadian owned shelby Montana feedlot.

[county]

Yep most culls go to slaughter plants I haul my cattle directly to one. Horses I sell as riders if there broke if not to a horse auction. Where they go from there all depends on who pays the most and what they want them for.

[terrygean]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Theres horses shipped both ways, the shippers are going to wherever its closest from their start point. Cattle the same way the price of fuel its more so now then ever. Also alot depends on kill floor capacity at the time. If one plant is really busy they have to go to another one. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then why is Baker going from Ohio to Texas? Because he has a contract with Texas plants. Like I said its closer to Canada than Texas. He is about 10 hrs to Quebec, and 9 hrs to Cavel. So why does he drive 18 hrs to Texas every week? Why is Musick, Beverly, Sebastain all from Western Canada & SD going to Texas? Wouldn't Ft. McCleod, Alberta be closer? Since you seem to know so much about this business please tell me because a apx $3.oo a gallon for diesel I don't know how they make a pofit.

[terrygean]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Yep most culls go to slaughter plants I haul my cattle directly to one. Horses I sell as riders if there broke if not to a horse auction. Where they go from there all depends on who pays the most and what they want them for. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you do sell to slaughter. You profess to know alot about the business so you know that your horses are being bought by killer buyers. Just because the auction house sells them to the killers and you don't directly do it yourself does not let you off of the hook of selling to slaughter. Kowledge of an activity makes you a co conspiritor of that activity.

[county]

And your point would be?

[county]

You don't know how they make a profit which I'm guessing they could care less about. But obviously they are or they wouldn't be in business.

[Rivermeer]

Wow, if this was survivor, I know who I would vote out of the island. I am so disgusted right now.

Heather

[luvmytbs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
BTW I don't know about the auctionns you go to but the ones I go to the seller doesn't have to sell a beloved horse or one it hates for $200. Totally up to the seller if they sell or not. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I pointed out, most the time these people don't know who is buying the horse. It's not like they frequent auctions, so if Mr. X brings in a horse to an auction once every few years, because he is getting another one, he has no clue what goes on here. I spoke to a trainer about the dealings at this auction, he was in disbelieve, he had taken a horse there himself a few years ago.
In this state we live in a pampered world when it come to horses. Most people here have no clue.

[county]

If someone has no clue then IMO they have no business selling at an auction. I beleive taking responsability is the term I see here so often.

[montanamanda]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Yep most culls go to slaughter plants I haul my cattle directly to one. Horses I sell as riders if there broke if not to a horse auction. Where they go from there all depends on who pays the most and what they want them for. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just as "one man's trash is another man's treasure" ot "beauty is seen in the eye of the beholder", there are a lot of "culls" that would be another persons wonderful riding horse. I saw many loose horses go through with saddle marks, new shoes and i walked in their pens and had many beautiful gentle souls come up for a pet or scratch. I think the only thing wrong with the biggest part of them was they had an owner who did not give a rats ass what happened to them and just wanted the money. Nice thing about the Billings auction is they turn away lame, blind, skinny horses so that sure was not the excuse.

[luvmytbs]

County, I guess that's like saying, someone using a computer for the first time, should be totally computer literate before they get on. Hmmmm

[nettiemaria]

The first people I would vote off would be about 50% (including myself) and EVERYONE here at work! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[county]

Ya Corsica doesn't take cripples either. I'm always amazed at the number of people that think its wrong to give a horse or any animal a chance at a good life. I always look at it from the horses perspective and not a human emotion one. I think if the horses I've bought over the years that were starved, neglected whatever term is the PC one could talk. They say take me home and feed me, fix me up and I'll take my chances getting a home. Their other option is to stand where they are and have a long slow painful death.

To me its much like if you went into a POW camp in Viet Nam and gave the prisoners a choice. stay here or we'll open the gates and you guys take a chance on freedom and survivial. Some of you will no doubt be killed most will live and return to good health.

What choice would each of you make? I know for me its not even a question.

[county]

Depends on if you think a horse and a computer are basically the same thing. Personally I place living creatures over machines.

[Lildunhorse]

I suppose for it to be fair, the auction yards should have a disclaimer telling people that their pet may be going to a killer buyer. But it doesn't work that way. I called ahead to my local auction to find out if there were going to be killer buyers bidding and the owner told me they didn't have killer buyers there, ever. I found out later that that's where a lot of the feedlot horses were coming from. So in order for people to know what they're doing, they'd have to go to great lengths, like we do, to find out what's what. And since the majority of the people I have spoken with about this in the last two years didn't even realize horses are sold for meat...well, there ya go. They wouldn't even know to ask, would they?

[county]

People would have to go to great lenghts to learn whats what in the world of a horse. As well they should, to do any less when having a child or animal IMO is a very poor way to go about having either.

[Lildunhorse]

County, that's an excellent analogy. What a horrible position to be in, though, for horse or human.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
To me its much like if you went into a POW camp in Viet Nam and gave the prisoners a choice. stay here or we'll open the gates and you guys take a chance on freedom and survivial. Some of you will no doubt be killed most will live and return to good health.

What choice would each of you make? I know for me its not even a question. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[terrygean]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
And your point would be? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you are talking to me the point is that you said I was making things up about you selling to slaughter, I am not, you do sell to slaughter. County I have no reason or need to lie or make things up. The truth is all I need. But I will admit that it does sent a fire under my butt when people do not speak the truth or twist things to try and fit their purpose or wiggle their way out of things. That's kind of childish, isn't it?

[Lildunhorse]

I don't disagree with that. You're absolutely right.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
People would have to go to great lenghts to learn whats what in the world of a horse. As well they should, to do any less when having a child or animal IMO is a very poor way to go about having either. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[county]

But its real life and thats where I live. Emotions don't do much for fixing up neglected livestock. Lots of sweat, grain, and hay do. To aquire them you have to sometimes get your hands dirty and do things that alot of other people don't like. Personally I'm not real worked up about what others don't like. They have the choice to actually do something, neglected livestock doesn't.

Like to see some of the cattle I've gotten? Makes most neglected horses look like Kentucky Derby horses

[luvmytbs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Depends on if you think a horse and a computer are basically the same thing. Personally I place living creatures over machines. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wasn't comparing horses with computers, but the way an auction works with how to operate a computer. In either case you wouldn't expect a person to know how it works without educating themselves. Unfortunately they don't have instruction manuals on livestock auctions.

And yes, having signs at each auction where it applies would be GREAT! But we know that would never happen.

[county]

terrygean if thats the way you look at it fine by me. I'm sure your in the camp that loves to point fingers but getting off you butt and doing anything positive is way to much work. But hey then what can one expect your not wealthy like me right? Plus it doesn't fit your agenda and God forbid that isn't front and center in your world.

[county]

Your right theres no manual at a livestock auction. But if people take responsabilty for their livestock they would never sell or buy at one till they got educated on how they operate. Anything less is doing a poor job of care taking for the animal IMO.

[Lildunhorse]

I suppose if we walked up and down in front carrying a sign, we'd get a polite escort off the property? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by luvmytbs:

And yes, having signs at each auction where it applies would be GREAT! But we know that would never happen. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[luvmytbs]

The point that has been made here many of times over and over, is that most people, myself included until a couple of years ago, have NO clue that horses are going to slaughter, no clue that an auction is more then private parties selling their riding horses to another private party as a riding horse. If you don't know it exists, how can you research it?

[luvmytbs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lildunhorse:
I suppose if we walked up and down in front carrying a sign, we'd get a polite escort off the property? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I doubt it would be polite, LOL.

[county]

Why would you carry a sign? I know many many horse auctions accross the country if you want to learn how to buy and sell at one the owners are more then happy to steer you in the right direction to learn.

If most people made the choice not to leasrn everything there is about horse auctions whose fault is that? They've been around many years before any of us have. Why they made the choice only they can say

[terrygean]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
terrygean if thats the way you look at it fine by me. I'm sure your in the camp that loves to point fingers but getting off you butt and doing anything positive is way to much work. But hey then what can one expect your not wealthy like me right? Plus it doesn't fit your agenda and God forbid that isn't front and center in your world. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What have you done to change laws to better life for animals? Oh but ending horse slaughter & enforcing DOT laws on ALL (small & large) trucks hauling livestock, and working to change my state abuse laws for livestock is the center of my world. It consumes all of my free time.
Buy the way did you get a DOT # for your truck. Make sure to tell you friends to get one also. I want all of the small haulers to abide by the same laws that I have to. It's cheaper to get a DOT# than pay a fine if you don't have one. I think I will call MN. and see if they are enforcing the reg. up their.

[Lildunhorse]

It was supposed to be a joke. Apparently, not a very funny one.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
Why would you carry a sign? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[county]

Call away, i'm sure there going to jump right to what ever you tell them. ROTFLMAO

[terrygean]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by county:
Call away, i'm sure there going to jump right to what ever you tell them. ROTFLMAO[/QUOTE

I'm sure they won't. But like I said the issues are the center of my world. I will be very persistent. Here is the sorce of my fact's for you to check out
Go to the Federal Motor Carrier website, look at rules & regs.
Reg. 390.5 defines commercial vechicle & interstate commerce

[county]

I'm very aware of the regulations and have been for many years. There not a mystery, just not inmportant to my world.

[terrygean]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
I'm very aware of the regulations and have been for many years. There not a mystery, just not inmportant to my world. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you are hauling livestock to market they better be an important part of your world. Or are you like most people in the slaughter horse industry Not law abiding, thing your above rules and regulations.

[county]

I'm so wealthy none of the rules apply to me you should know that.

BTW something should be important to me cause you say so? I hardly think so your just not as important here as you think. ROTFLMAO

[terrygean]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by county:
I'm so wealthy none of the rules apply to me you should know that.

BTW something should be important to me cause you say so? I hardly think so your just not as important here as you think. ROTFLMAO </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's not because I say so. I am not claiming to be important.You where the one who said it wasn't important to you. But since you have been aware of the Federal Motor Carrier Regs. for so long you know they apply to you when hauling livestock no matter if you are rich or poor. It is already the law. Not one that I am trying to get on the books. All I'm saying is we need to enforce the laws that are already on the books.

[MHM]

Jetsmom, shame on you for changing the title on this thread at such a late date!

For a moment there, I thought I had missed out on 12 pages of chances to be an obnoxious know it all!

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[MHM]

Oh, great, now you've changed it back so I look like a complete nutcase. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Oh, well, I'm sure it won't be the first time.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[county]

So tell me what makes you think I've broken any laws?

[MHM]

Oh, wait. Moot points now on both counts. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif