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View Full Version : Track anti-slaughter policy...what's the point if it's not enforced?



jenm
Jul. 21, 2011, 10:23 PM
I heard today that owner/trainer Danny Bird at Mountaineer sent a horse to a kill buyer less than 48 hours after it had raced. The horse, Deputy Broad, last raced on July 11th.

The kill buyer, Fred Bauer, confirmed receipt of and shipment of the horse to Richelieu.

Mountaineer supposedly has an anti-slaughter policy, but it sure doesn't seem like it's being followed or enforced.

Now, in all fairness, I learned about Deputy Broad's fate on Facebook, so if anyone has information to the contrary, please set me straight.

Does anyone here know Danny Bird and is he really that slimy?

BeverlyAStrauss
Jul. 22, 2011, 07:51 AM
that has been the big question all along- good for PR I guess, and they hope race fans dont find out the reality........

Bacchus
Jul. 22, 2011, 09:10 AM
Did you contact Mountaineer?

jenm
Jul. 22, 2011, 07:49 PM
Did you contact Mountaineer?

Yes, as have several other people. Danny Bird admitted he did send the horse to slaughter, but used a middle man. Mountaineer is investigating, but if no proof of the transaction is presented, he may get away with it. He also said he didn't care about the track's anti-slaughter policy and would "take care" of anyone who came after him regarding the policy. Nice.

Hopefully he will have to prove the horse is still alive.

maxxtrot
Jul. 26, 2011, 07:31 PM
from what i heard there was conformation the horse was processed. i hope they nail his ass to the wall!

ASB Stars
Jul. 26, 2011, 08:12 PM
from what i heard there was conformation the horse was processed. i hope they nail his ass to the wall!

Isn't processed a nice, sanitary word.

The horse did what he could for humans, was thrown on a nasty truck, no doubt full of other horses who were "sold out", and killed in a nasty and horribly inhumane manner.

Maybe they'll find a way to show the trainer how that works for him.

Laurierace
Jul. 26, 2011, 08:16 PM
In my opinion the only tracks whose policies aren't absolute PR BS are Finger Lakes and Philly because they at least attempt to offer a suitable alternative.

SuperSTB
Jul. 26, 2011, 08:20 PM
Isn't processed a nice, sanitary word.

The horse did what he could for humans, was thrown on a nasty truck, no doubt full of other horses who were "sold out", and killed in a nasty and horribly inhumane manner.

Maybe they'll find a way to show the trainer how that works for him.

They don't care... bottom line. Horse slaughter is necessary to them. No amount of discussion or proof otherwise will change their mind.

VCT
Jul. 27, 2011, 10:02 AM
Laurirace, what do Finger Lakes and Philly offer as alternative?

maunder
Jul. 27, 2011, 10:13 AM
Laurirace, what do Finger Lakes and Philly offer as alternative?

Finger Lakes has an on site adoption program and a volunteer-organized trainer listings service for the horses.

It's an attempt to be proactive and provide alternatives to trainers who otherwise might sell to dealers.

VCT
Jul. 27, 2011, 11:01 AM
Yeah, I figured it was something like that, I was just curious. It's good they try to help find a solution to this problem.

Xctrygirl
Jul. 27, 2011, 12:00 PM
I call supreme BS on the notion that Finger Lakes trainers ALL use the adoption program.

Felix Monseratte (Of Zippy Chippy fame) sent one a couple months ago straight to Camelot. I called the stewards and the Adoption program at Finger Lakes. I asked them about enforcing their "Zero Tolerance" policy. NEITHER side 1.) knew the policy, or 2.) Claimed any familiarity or other instances of enforcing it.

And low and behold when one of the Camelot Weekly followers folks bought the horse everyone at Finger Lakes essentially said "Yay...horse got a home. All done."

To which I responded asking about enforcing the "Zero tolerance policy" on the trainer and I got the kind of long silences befitting of a politician waiting to see what their team of advisors say before they utter "no comment."

I know the FLTAP is a good program, but it doesn't make the measley few $ that the connections get from Camelot or the like go away. The trainers who need to recoup some amount will still steer towards pathways to achieve this.

~Emily

maunder
Jul. 27, 2011, 12:20 PM
I call supreme BS on the notion that Finger Lakes trainers ALL use the adoption program.

Felix Monseratte (Of Zippy Chippy fame) sent one a couple months ago straight to Camelot. I called the stewards and the Adoption program at Finger Lakes. I asked them about enforcing their "Zero Tolerance" policy. NEITHER side 1.) knew the policy, or 2.) Claimed any familiarity or other instances of enforcing it.

And low and behold when one of the Camelot Weekly followers folks bought the horse everyone at Finger Lakes essentially said "Yay...horse got a home. All done."

To which I responded asking about enforcing the "Zero tolerance policy" on the trainer and I got the kind of long silences befitting of a politician waiting to see what their team of advisors say before they utter "no comment."

I know the FLTAP is a good program, but it doesn't make the measley few $ that the connections get from Camelot or the like go away. The trainers who need to recoup some amount will still steer towards pathways to achieve this.

~Emily

I did not infer that ALL Finger Lakes trainers use the available programs. Please note that I wrote that it is an "attempt" to be proactive.

I do not know if there is an actual written policy at Finger Lakes regarding zero tolerance. I hope that your efforts, Xctrygirl, are affective in getting the powers that be there working towards one if there isn't one in place.

They did bar a well-known dealer from the backside when a complaint was made so they do act on things sometimes.

danceronice
Jul. 27, 2011, 12:43 PM
If they can't keep them and no one wants them, what exactly are they supposed to do? It's a business--only a moron would chose to spend money putting a horse down if there was someone willing to hand them cash. (Well, a moron, or someone with money to burn or who doesn't care if he stays in business.)

Finger Lakes at least has some options, but the adoption program has a waiting list, and the trainer listings are't a GUARANTEE the horse will sell. The Illinois breeders and owners association has a program they're working on that would provide homes for some horses--I don't think any sort of national program is at all reasonable (they rarely are for any purpose) but do the big racing states (KY, NY, FL, CA, etc) have anything similar--run by the associations, to look after their own?

And...how do you get people to buy OTTBs? I'll tell anyone who listens aboutt them (without trashing the racing industry while I'm at it), but there need to be people willing to pony up if they don't want the horses sold to anyone with money.

Xctrygirl
Jul. 27, 2011, 01:01 PM
I did not infer that ALL Finger Lakes trainers use the available programs. Please note that I wrote that it is an "attempt" to be proactive.

Sorry Maunder.

I was not responding directly to yours or anyone else's statements.

I was just uber freustrated by the responses I got with the Finger Lakes "officials" a few months ago. And honestly equally so with the Camelot volunteers. They were far more concerned how I managed to figure out the horse's identity, than actually learning how to easily check if a TB ran within a month of showing up there. I know it's volunteers, but if we called out the 0 tolerance tracks more....well then maybe the policies would work better!!!

At least NYRA is actually doing something and kicking trainers who violate the rule knowingl,y off the backside.

~Emily

maunder
Jul. 27, 2011, 01:17 PM
OK. Thanks. I can understand your frustration. I think it is assumed that there is a zero policy in place at Finger Lakes but I don't think there is one in actual writing.

The dealers can't usually drive right on to the backside to try to get horses but they will go around to area farms. Many of these dealers have a great song and dance in place about being a "good home" for the horses or having private people to sell too.

The Adoption Program and the Finger Lakes Finest listings do help place A LOT of horses, but they can't help them all.

I think it's a work in progress and your concern, Xctrygirl, and involvement can only help, I believe.

Xctrygirl
Jul. 27, 2011, 01:54 PM
In 2009 They issued a press release announcing their "Zero Tolerance Policy" same as many other tracks who hopped on the bandwagon once Mrs. Whitney's horse was saved. (not from FL, but many tracks jumped at the pr opportunity)

Just sucks their press department doesn't seem to recognize that stopping other trainers from doing this, would IMPROVE their image mightily!!

~Emily

maunder
Jul. 27, 2011, 02:57 PM
In 2009 They issued a press release announcing their "Zero Tolerance Policy" same as many other tracks who hopped on the bandwagon once Mrs. Whitney's horse was saved. (not from FL, but many tracks jumped at the pr opportunity)

Just sucks their press department doesn't seem to recognize that stopping other trainers from doing this, would IMPROVE their image mightily!!

~Emily

Hmmm. Thanks for that date and info. I'll see if I can find a copy of that press release online.

Xctrygirl
Jul. 27, 2011, 03:35 PM
Been there, tried that.

Have yet to find it.

The steward I spoke to said he had had difficulty locating it up at Finger Lakes.

Not sure where it went.

Need to call my friends who work at the Blood Horse.

~Em

maunder
Jul. 27, 2011, 04:54 PM
Hmmmm. Thanks. Interesting. I'll follow up too with some emails and let you know...

Mah Navu
Jul. 28, 2011, 10:07 AM
What a depressing situation.

Even IF most tracks had an anti slaughter policy AND enforced it, alot of people in the horse world don't want OTTBs. THe pervasive thinking in the "regular" trail riding/ western discipline world is that they are too high strung and nasty to be of any value. ALOT of people, even people who've been in the horse industry (i.e. running trail riding operations, boarding facility owners, and even the dealer we bought our OTTB from) don't want these horses. They are too much trouble due to their temperament, they say. THAT is the attitude of those in my area....

The horse dealer we bought Beau from NEVER deals with TBs. He doesn't like them. Beau was the first TB he ever bought... and he was more than happy to sell him to us to get rid of him.

Not because he was crazy, but because of the level of care most OTTBs require. Beau was turned out 24/7, through the winter... in a large herd wich included a stallion whom Beau refused to back down from, resulting in serious and large multiple bites, he was blanketed through the winter but the blanket was ill fitting, pony sized, had holes and rubbed huge areas of hair off his shoulders, and he was fed cracked corn....
In these conditions, he deteriorated quickly ....

So if the bad rep these horses have isn't enough to turn people off, the special care (esp. regarding feeding regimens) they oftentimes require will.....

It's a no win situation, IMO. Even IF tracks enforced their anti slaughter policies, if we can't get the general public to WANT to adopt these fantastic horses, what will happen then?
Rescues organizations will be inundated past their capabilities...and there will always be an influx of MORE OTTBs coming off the track.... Where do they go?

The whole situation is so depressing. And I just can't see how it is going to get better....even with strict enforcement of anti slaughter policies.:confused:

Lisa Preston
Jul. 28, 2011, 10:33 AM
I'm afraid there are far more good critters than good critter homes.
It is sad.

Alice
Jul. 28, 2011, 10:37 AM
It seems to all be steps in the right direction though. Warts and all, at least things are changing a bit to make sending them to auction not as accepted as it has been in the past.

But I am so glad there are people like you out there forcing the tracks to look at the issue!

jenarby
Jul. 28, 2011, 02:28 PM
I agree with Mah....
Unfortunately, with or without these policies, there is always the "underground." Ban the dealers....or ban the owners and trainers....it doesn't matter. People will always find ways to dispose of the horses they no longer want or find useful. So what happens *if* all policies are enforced....that makes people happy right? Then what do we do with all these horses who are in need of homes? Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favor of slaughter by any means....but what do we do? What about all the horses that were dumped in the hills of WV to survive on their own? Wasn't it something close to 200 up there and nobody could prove who any of them belonged to.
To me, regardless of which side you stand for, there is always going to be a catch 22.
I used to list horses on CANTER for this trainer. I've also bought several from him in the past that were very sound, nice horses that went on to be successful eventers. It isn't like the guy didn't know he had options.....in this case there had to be a different story that led to the horse's demise. Not that is is right. I know I could have helped place him.....I'm just saying, what happens when things start getting desperate. How do we help all the unwanteds?

danceronice
Jul. 28, 2011, 02:56 PM
I actually find it easier to convince the western/trail types to give it a go as more casual owners are more likely to buy a horse who needs some time or might not be physically flawless, but try to get the show barns (who used to be a big market) to get a racehorse. Compared to expensive speciality bred show animals they're usually shorter, lighter built, and there's the perception that they're unsound or the idea that literally all they know how to do is be lead to a gate and run one way around the track. (Look at the people on COTH who think that!) The eventers, at least, still like a TB, but dressage, hunter, jumper?

And I don't think it's fair to demand that trainers and owners pay euthanasia and disposal on every horse they can't sell to a 'good home.' They're in a business. The horses are business assets. They cannot be viewed the same as pets where you keep it forever (especially when in most states disposal of a large, chemically toxic carcass is more and more expensive.) Obviously, severely injured animals are another story, but one that you can't convince people to buy but they can't keep forever? Unless you get to write euth/disposal off your taxes it's not really feasible for non-hobbyists.

I like what the Illinois breeders and owners were publicizing at Arlington on the state-bred stakes day--a program that provides a home for the 'unplacables.' Obviously they have a lower volume than, say, Kentucky, but it's a thought. (Though one of their 'poster horses' in their brochure was, interestingly enough, the reverse--bought out of a feedlot as a yearling and succesfully racing!)

jenm
Jul. 29, 2011, 01:35 AM
If they can't keep them and no one wants them, what exactly are they supposed to do?


The fact is some people, like Danny Bird, don't even try to find an alternative, they simply sell to a kill buyer for a couple hundred bucks.

In the instance of the horse in question, there was someone waiting for the horse when it retired, but DB chose to take the easy route and just dump the horse.

danceronice
Jul. 29, 2011, 10:48 AM
$200 > -$50-75 stall fee. Cash in is better than cash out, unless the person waiting was also going to pay $1000 or so for it.

Maybe they need a cheap/free holding barn at tracks where they can put horses who aren't worth keeping for a week or two if someone is really interested and willing to come get them now/quickly, so the trainers aren't losing a ton of money paying for non-earners and there isn't the pressure of "we need the stall for one that races so enter him or else."

lifesabreeze
Jul. 29, 2011, 01:00 PM
$200 > -$50-75 stall fee. "

Where are you paying stall fees? I never had to pay for a stall at any track i raced, unless it was off-season training facility.

moonriverfarm
Jul. 29, 2011, 01:28 PM
They pay in Louisiana.

lifesabreeze
Jul. 29, 2011, 01:47 PM
They pay in Louisiana.

really? during the race meet? I don't see anything on the stall app that says you have to pay for stalls at Louisiana Downs,Evangeline or Delta Downs. I didn't find an app for TB stalls at Fair Grounds

2ndyrgal
Jul. 29, 2011, 04:03 PM
or even top tier tracks, you really have NO idea how many truely unrehomeable, probably not fit for any truly useful purpose horses there are every year. If a horse isn't racing, it can't stay at the track. These trainers do not have owners with some big farm somewhere. They live in a different apartment evey time they switch tracks. They don't all have trucks and trailers. The horse has to pay his way, or the owner isn't going to support it for very long. The trainer damn sure isn't going to support mr or ms non-winner of a ham sandwich last 4 starts either.

So as opposed to taking a half a dozen of them and renting "pasture" and then buggering off and leaving them to starve, he had them euthanized. Since they can't use chemicals on something that's going to be food for something, they got a bolt between the eyes. It isn't pretty, but it is usually instant. chemical euthanzasia is not, it's ugly, not instant, and damn sure no fun to watch your beloved, or any other horse go thru. It sometimes takes several agonizing minutes.

So, my thinking is that if a guy showed up with a normal six horse trailer with 5 other horses in it and loaded trigger up, no cash exchanged hands, and someone told everyone that Farmer Brown's son is a vet and does it for free then the horses are buried, that would be fine. The fact that some poor no luck trainer with a bunch of no hopers actually put a couple dollars in his pocket (which trust me, will still be a loss) and they are "processed" is a problem. Not all horses can have forever homes. I'd love it if they did and if I had several thousand acres of good grass with fresh water running through it I'd take as many as they'd send. But that isn't reality.

So if you really want to do something, then go get one from a trainer, and give it a lifetime home. Don't bitch because it isn't good for anything, just keep paying and hope it dies in an inexpensive and quick manner.

I don't like it, but it beats a suffering, slow death, or a breakdown on the track.

casper324
Jul. 29, 2011, 06:54 PM
The racing industry wonders why they can't drag people other then the true gamblers to the track. If the quote below is reflective of the attitudes towards horses, it sucks. Ya make your money on these animals and they deserve a little bit of respect, or go race cars.

You want horse lovers to go to the track, they have the money typically, they love the animal, they enjoy testing their knowledge of the animal in regards to their betting its a win win. This kind of published attitude simply drives us away.




"And I don't think it's fair to demand that trainers and owners pay euthanasia and disposal on every horse they can't sell to a 'good home.' They're in a business. The horses are business assets. They cannot be viewed the same as pets where you keep it forever (especially when in most states disposal of a large, chemically toxic carcass is more and more expensive.) Obviously, severely injured animals are another story, but one that you can't convince people to buy but they can't keep forever? Unless you get to write euth/disposal off your taxes it's not really feasible for non-hobbyists."

danceronice
Jul. 29, 2011, 07:54 PM
Because it's a business asset. Not a pet. Only a complete moron makes business decisions based entirely on sentiment that require taking an even bigger loss than they're already taking on a bad runner. It's a horse, not a human. It doesn't ultimately matter to the HORSE how it dies if it's going to die, and if no 'loving forever home' is willing to cough up, that's what's going to happen. Bolts and bullets are quick and at least something gets to use the carcass.

Now, most trainers and owners would like to sell most horses to someone who isn't shipping straight to Canada, but apparently too many people don't want a horse off the track. Those people really don't have a right to complain about who does buy them. If you don't want a horse going to slaughter or a big-cat sanctuary or a hound pack, buy it.

It constantly amazes me that people think they have the right to tell other people what to do with their money without putting their own where their mouth is. Especially hobbyists talking to people whose livelihood is at stake, who aren't exactly rolling in it.

Barnfairy
Jul. 29, 2011, 09:49 PM
There's also a little thing called ethics. Doing the right thing can be a useful business tactic as well.

2ndyrgal
Jul. 29, 2011, 11:06 PM
Those of you that disagree that racing is a business, and that all "race horses" should meet a dignified, peaceful end, in a lovely setting surrounded by people who love them and have cared for them til their dying day, please just stop saying that the owners/trainers are the bad guys. If you have a useful horse, sell it cheap to someone and go get a OTTB that has a chip in it's knee, a suspensory injury, an "old" bow. Now, spend the money to geld it. Plan to go take care of it yourself, every day, because a great many of these horses cannot, at least initially, be handled by the kind of novice barn workers most boarding stables employ. Get ready to pay more because that same barn is not going to give your new horse NEARLY enough hay to keep him in good weight. Be prepared to deal with the fact that he stall walks, constantly, so even if you own a hay farm, he's going to be a hard keeper. Now, we hope you have a terrific farrier that really knows what he's doing or those shelly feet with underrun heels are going to plague you for a long time. And if you get one that has wintered in Florida? Start buying blankets now, because he may or may not grow a decent haircoat this year. Or next. Be prepared to learn how to ride in a totally different manner than you do now. Oh, and be prepared for the fact that he's never crosstied, and won't stand still to be mounted. Oh, he doesn't like to be groomed much, and is so head shy you have to unbuckle his bridle from the top to get it on him. Oh, and make a quick vet appointment for the afternoon of the first morning you plan to turn him out, since he'll blow a stifle going stupid, he's now 6 years old, and he hasn't been turned out in a field since he was two. Oh, and forget taking your children around him, he pins his ears and bites at anything or anyone that dares come past his stall. Oh, he bit the barn girl when she didn't drop his feed fast enough and they want you to get the nutcase out of their barn NOW? Damn, well maybe you can find a place to pasture board him.. the trainer said he was a mean, nasty, SOB, but you thought he just needed love. He hates your guts and you're scared of him.

This sadly, is part of the reality. For every feel good story, there are way more just like this. I've saved, rehabbed, quit on and put down more than my share over the years, but what you learn is they are not all cut out to be pets. It's like when the rescue people say Pitt Bulls are misunderstood. No they aren't, they were bred for decades to be agressive and they are. Race horses are bred to run as fast and far as they can. They are NOT bred for temperment, intelligence or anything other than speed and stamina. It is a big money business, and like it or not, racing is the product, horses are the inventory.

I think that Thoroughbred horses are quite possibly, even the worst ones, the most beautiful, soul sirring beings on God's Green Earth. The ill-bred, awful looking common ones turn into hot silk in motion when they run. I hate that so many of them will not get to live out their days in sunshine and lush fields.

I had my last OTTB, who turned out to be the most wonderful show hunter I'll ever have, put to sleep on Sept 11. He was 27 years old. Until the last month of his life, he still galloped for fun, and smoked all the young horses in the field easily, and he loved every minute of it.

The last month of his life, he was unable to run. He was miserable.

I let him go.


Sometimes, the right thing, isn't the easy thing, and not the most pretty, feel good thing.

danceronice
Jul. 29, 2011, 11:44 PM
There's also a little thing called ethics. Doing the right thing can be a useful business tactic as well.

The right thing is the thing that keeps you in business and not on the dole. That means not willfully taking a loss when there's a chance for a slim profit. Or just a smaller loss.

Injecting a horse with cobra venom is unethical. Selling it is business.

Barnfairy
Jul. 30, 2011, 12:42 AM
The right thing is the thing that keeps you in business and not on the dole. That means not willfully taking a loss when there's a chance for a slim profit. Or just a smaller loss.

Injecting a horse with cobra venom is unethical. Selling it is business.
When the horse can be sold responsibly to a good home, I'm all for it. When the horse is sold to the pipeline, trying to justify that as good business sense is a total cop out.

Here's a thought: how about as part of the owner's business plan there are funds allocated for the humane euthanasia of his asset-turned-liability should need be. Risk of loss in racing should come as a surprise to no one.

It is a given that a racehorse's usefulness on the track will come to an end at some point. Is it really too much to ask that the animal which was raised to have heart be afforded a dignified death should its injuries prevent it from having a realistic chance at a second career? Is it really too much to ask that the racing owner not be blind to that? I've bought some of those horses myself, and you know what?- it feels a whole lot like enabling someone else's poor business practices.

If picking up a few hundred bucks for sending a horse to slaughter instead of paying for euthanasia is what keeps you off the dole, some revision is in order.

If sending your athlete to get the crap kicked out of it on a sardine-packed one way trip out of the country is the right thing, there wouldn't be so much public opposition to it. That status quo makes the industry look bad, and hey, it's not like the racing industry on the whole is exactly thriving these days.

Dahoss
Jul. 30, 2011, 04:19 AM
They don't care... bottom line.

This is what I have said many many times before about many owners, trainers and barn help. Some of us are in it for the love of the horses and the sport(such as myself), while others are in only for a paycheck and the horses are nothing more but an inanimate object to them ready to toss in the trash without any second thought. And yes, I said barn help too. Many of the so-called grooms, etc today, I see zero connection between them and the horses they "care" for. The horses get about as much attention(other then the obvious they were hired to do) from their handlers as they do from the four walls that surround them.

judybigredpony
Jul. 30, 2011, 06:56 AM
This problem has been around as long since we domesticated the horse.

Before there was internal combustion engines horses were the everyday mode of transport 100's of thousands just for everyday commute/transport. What do you think was the single largest sanitation issue for any metropolis....not manure...the disposal of broken cripples blind lame unsuitable or old used up horses...

As far an enforcing a PR tactic regarding not selling to slaughter..ask any legal represenative for any race track.
You can not tell someone what to do with their Legal Property unless it is an act of Cruelty.
Anyone can "Sell" their property to whom ever they like.
Now you can bar buyers from access to Private Property such as a track backside, but you can not stop a trainer from taking his property off the track and "selling" that property to whom ever they like for whatever outcome.

There are not enough homes or jobs for ever single horse in the racing industry. Even if there were only a fraction are suitable for new jobs.

Take this energy and lobby for safer surfaces, no 2yr old racing, better backside living conditions, affordable euthanesia, race day every day promotions to spot light OTTB in the sports world.

Stop detracting buyers and encourage buyers.

But most of face the facts, they are a commadity not a pet for the largest precentage of owners and trainers...It Is Business.

As a poster above has said a large number will never be suitable or sound enough for another job or quality of life.
It is more productive to find an aestetically acceptable and cost effective human means of euthansia and disposal than to get on the Bleeding Heart Band wagon....

ise@ssl
Jul. 30, 2011, 11:07 AM
If an owner has a horse that they feel has no useful life - call the Vet and have the horse put down and pay to have it taken away to the renderers. Just because someone is an "owner" doesn't mean they should dispose of a live animal like they would do with their trash.
Equine are not a commodity - they aren't recognized as such by the Agricultural world - they are LIVESTOCK - get it? LIVE STOCK. And as far as affordable euthanasia - the Veterinarians have to realize we are in dire times and if an owner wants to choose euthanasia over selling an animal to slaughter after exhausting all other options - that should be their choice and they need to offer it at an affordable amount - perhaps with no profit to get us through this horrible times.

animaldoc
Jul. 30, 2011, 02:00 PM
Euthanasia is cheap (and I don't know many vets making a huge profit from euthanasia) - often it's the disposal that is expensive.

When I had to euthanize my last horse - I paid cost for the drugs (cheap) and didn't charge myself a fee for the IV injection. The disposal where I lived - close to a major metropoklitan area, no field to bury in - was NINE HUNDRED DOLLARS. That was WITH a discount because I was a vet.

I have no idea how the average horseperson can afford that - the only way is to plan for it and have an emergency fund that you can use.

I will say that often at the tracks, disposal for a horse euthanized on the grounds is free.

Alagirl
Jul. 30, 2011, 02:18 PM
Euthanasia is cheap (and I don't know many vets making a huge profit from euthanasia) - often it's the disposal that is expensive.

When I had to euthanize my last horse - I paid cost for the drugs (cheap) and didn't charge myself a fee for the IV injection. The disposal where I lived - close to a major metropoklitan area, no field to bury in - was NINE HUNDRED DOLLARS. That was WITH a discount because I was a vet.

I have no idea how the average horseperson can afford that - the only way is to plan for it and have an emergency fund that you can use.

I will say that often at the tracks, disposal for a horse euthanized on the grounds is free.

Well disposing of 1200 pounds contaminated meat is not cheap.

And thanks to all the cidiots and NIMBYs it's not becoming any easier nor cheaper in the near future rather the opposite)

And I certainly don't see were a vet should eat the cost of a euthanasia, just because it's tewible on the owner.

It's always the same histrionics about the 'poor wittle ponies' packed into the trucks. No matter how many times the professional shippers explain that they have to be standing tight or the shifting weight puts the rig in danger.

OMG they are with strange horses....happens all the time. And in close quarters I can imagine damages are also limited.

This OMFG SLAUGHTER has become so ridiculous.
If you don't want a horse to end up in a bad situation and care more than the people owning the horses, BUY them. Keep them forever, park them on your couch.

The no slaughter rule for tracks is a PR move. The TBS still go to the dealers. Now they just have to go through a middle man

And although I am fully aware that the usual suspects don't read this, nor believe it: The meat packers don't wand bruised meat. They can't sell it. So it is in the hauler's best interest to present horses in their best possible condition.

2ndyrgal
Jul. 30, 2011, 03:30 PM
That at every little county dog pound in the US, thousands of little furry critters are destroyed and sent out with the trash every month. You just can't do that with a race horse.

To the poster that said due to the economy, vets should do it for no charge? Oh, so I guess vets aren't victims of the down economy, everyone is still doing just as many procedures, Coggins, etc as they were before. Idiotic at best.

No, horses aren't agriculture in this country. They aren't commodities. They are in fact, chattel. Personal property, which, unless it is cruel by legal definition, you can do anything legal you want with it. Sell it, give it away, kill it, eat it, paint it pink.

If you want to slam someone, slam the posters on the Giveaway Board on the CoTH bb. How many "free" old, broke down, pasture companions are there? So now that your horse is old and lame and you don't want him, you are going to give him away because he is of no use to you. You don't want to keep spending money on him, but you can't bring yourself to spend the money to euthanize him, so you give him to someone else hoping they will. Nice. At least the trainers at the track are calling it a day and MAKING SURE WHAT HAPPENS TO THE HORSE, not just handing the lead shank to someone else and hoping for the best. Guess what people, unless you are one of the few dozen people posting here that actually has their own farm, and will bury their old show hunters up on the hill with dignity, it isn't ever going to be any different than the trainers selling them on. Either some "collector" will take them and starve them to death, or someone will try to put them back in work, break them donw farther and then they'll either be given away again or sold for slaughter, except this time they'll go thru on 3 legs in pain. In fact, in my mind when someone has a horse that they've shown and competed for years, and has been treated like family, it's even worse, because for most of these owners it isn't a business to make money, it's about personal glory for them. They claim to be all about the welfare of the horse, but when he stops winning, he stops being what they need to win, then they're done. And there are pages and pages of them.

The racing industry keeps thousands of people in all kinds of related industries employed, but the players have to make money or at least cut their losses. There isn't enough pasture space to keep all the ex-racers alive and happy.

Find another cause that will make a real difference, or better yet, go find your nearest Thoroughbred race track, go to the backside and get a job. If you last a day without crying your eyes out and running for the door, I'll buy you lunch. If you last a week and actually get a check, my bet is that your perspective from now on will be vastly different.

LauraKY
Jul. 30, 2011, 05:00 PM
Danceronice and 2ndyrgal, I couldn't say it better. There are worse things than dead...much, much worse.

Calhoun
Jul. 30, 2011, 05:26 PM
Danceronice and 2ndyrgal, I couldn't say it better. There are worse things than dead...much, much worse.

It's how they get to dead that bothers me. There needs to be a better way.

I agree w/ 2ndyrgal, it disgusts me when people dump their older horses for a younger model. Every time I read on this Board, I can't afford 2 horses, therefore the old guy needs a new home. It makes me want to scream. BTW, I have walked the talk. For 2 years, no showing, no clinics, etc. due to finances and could only afford one horse which was an 18 yr. old OTTB that taught me to ride. When finances improved I purchased my next dressage horse. There was no way the old guy, who was like a member of the family, was going to end up in a bad situation.

Mardi
Jul. 31, 2011, 01:16 AM
And I don't think it's fair to demand that trainers and owners pay euthanasia and disposal on every horse they can't sell to a 'good home.' They're in a business. The horses are business assets.


Then find another business.
Period. End of story.

And as for no market for OTTBs, yes, the hunter/jumpers use them, and
compete with them. There's a new division at shows just for them.

Equilibrium
Jul. 31, 2011, 03:31 AM
Before I'm about to say what I'm going to say, I am not in favor of slaughter. But here is the reality.

The bleeding hearts who never owned, will never own, and haven't got a clue made things worse for horses by banning slaughter. Yup the darn well did. Instead of overhauling the the slaughter industry it's self to be humane for horses, they got rid of it totally in the belief all horses would get good homes. Now how silly is that? Instead of making things better for horses, they made it worse my now having them ship to other countries.

Quite frankly I am in favor of euthanasia. It also does not bug me when someone has the kennel man come and put a horse down for use in the kennels. This is not chemical but gunshot. Living in Europe shows you how things can be done correctly and humanely unlike the slaughter houses back home. You can sit there in your little bubble world and blame everyone fir those horses having a horrific and scary end, but ignoring the larger problem is a huge oversight. That problem is not enough homes for horses. So what do you all do? Slam breeders, owners, trainers. Why because they want to make money. Yeah, ok.

Racing is a large industry so they take most of the blame. Other industries don't get talked about because they are small and can get swept under the rug. But you all are a little silly to think the other sports on this very board take care til the end there high end horses that didn't turn out to expectations. Ones that will not make quiet pets per say. Ones riddled with problems that just aren't making the grade. It's all walks if equestrian life that get rid of horses that aren't making a living so to speak. But it's easier to blame the racing industry.

Horses are not pets. No amount of wishing, hoping, and dreaming will make them pets. That does not mean I do not love mine as such. But this is the reality that I have seen here in this country that has shocked me. I would much rather see a horse go to slaughter such as it is in this country, highly regulated and humane, than suffer because people are uncaring or actually beyond means of caring. Because THERE ARE WORSE THINGS THAN DEATH! First time I shouted on this board. But if people really started looking at things from that angle, the horses would benefit at the end of their lives or shall we say usefullnes.

And leave the damn money angle out of it. I'm sick and tired of people being called greedy because they got 200 for a horse going to slaughter. Answer me this, how many if you flip ex racehorses? Reschool them and get them going nice for a new owner? Do you do it for free? Do you do it for free? If you answered yes, then congratulations you are wealthy. I'm guessing you don't do it for free. Ok you can argue you are doing a service and should get paid and the others aren't. Make it right in your head any way you want. 200 is not being greedy.

I don't get the mindset. I really don't. It isn't reality. Reality is there are nit enough good homes for horses of any industry. So by banning horse slaughter it was made worse. Having convenient humane regulated slaughter houses like the ones over here would have been the correct option. But oh no, people can't wrap their heads around that option. It's better to be on double decker buses or make owners pay around 1000 to have a horse put down.

AFWIW, I was asked by 3 different people this week what I'm going to do with my 16yo ex chaser. Why I don't know. He's 16 and was supposed to never come sound 7 years ago. He's happy, fat, and semi retired. He stays with me until the end. He's doing great so unsure over the concern for Frank's well being. At his end he will be put down with dignity. That is my choice. I care about horses well being in life. So as long as people look after what they have in a loving and caring way then I don't have a right to tell someone what they should do with them at the end. I know this I'd have more respect for someone(over here) who sends a well looked after horse to slaughter than someone who send them to auction in a neglected state to be shipped off to another country. But hey, you all banned slaughter. I'm afraid this is the fallout. And it will not change. I know you all think me uncaring and a hard bitch. Far from it but you don't know me. You will ASSUME you do from reading this post.

Terri

Equilibrium
Jul. 31, 2011, 03:35 AM
Will get to laptop later to correct auto correct mistakes.

Terri

Alagirl
Jul. 31, 2011, 01:19 PM
May I applaude you!

Laurierace
Jul. 31, 2011, 01:41 PM
While I agree with mostly everyhing you said Terri, there is no slaughter ban here. The ban that we attempted to get passed included a ban on transport for slaughter as well as a euthanasia fund. The mess we have now is definitely worse than what happened when there were slaughterhouses operating in this country but it isn't due to the legislation that was introduced.

Alagirl
Jul. 31, 2011, 05:09 PM
While I agree with mostly everyhing you said Terri, there is no slaughter ban here. The ban that we attempted to get passed included a ban on transport for slaughter as well as a euthanasia fund. The mess we have now is definitely worse than what happened when there were slaughterhouses operating in this country but it isn't due to the legislation that was introduced.


you are right, with the exception of California and maybe another state or two there is no legal ban on horse slaughter, though anybody with any sense of self preservation is likely to option out of it, aside from the limited market.

The matter is complexer than just slaughter houses or 'just euth it'.

in any case, the viced 'get into a different business' voices fail to consider that those outfits who rely on the wayward buck to come their way make the bulk of the industry. Those who actually can afford to just kill the horse instead of selling them are few and far between and in all likelyhood started off as starving artist themselves. So unless one has a viable alternative that does not require somebody else to eat the cost (like the vet), paired with affordable safe disposal (yep, there is that) this will not work.

'just get out of the business' is epic fail in Business 101...

Equilibrium
Aug. 1, 2011, 03:24 AM
Thanks Laurie, in all the articles I'm reading it says banned. I don't want to be a hard ass. I don't want to come across as one. When I first moved here I remember being shocked as hell at seeing ad's in horse magazines looking for horses for slaughter. It's an accepted way of life but not because people don't care. Don't know if those are the right words, it's just that there is value in what a horse can provide. And people are very adamant that this is a business. It is how it's looked at. And most people will not keep a horse going that needs constant attention to keep them sound.

There are those horses that can be useful after their careers doing something. And then there are those that can't be useful except for pasture pets and or that need a good deal of care to be that. The day my vet told me to put Frank down I went out to see him. He didn't have a look of giving up yet and as I bought him I decided to let him decide. Now there were going to be no heroics here but I tended to his injuries daily until he could live out 24/7. Mind you he has to come in at night in the winter, he's soft! I've lost count of the jobs he's done for me. He has so earned his keep for life but he's sound and not riddled with problems.

I'm sorry the current legislation is letting horses down. It's sad really.

Terri

BoyleHeightsKid
Aug. 3, 2011, 12:00 PM
And I don't think it's fair to demand that trainers and owners pay euthanasia and disposal on every horse they can't sell to a 'good home.'

I don't agree with this... They own/train the horse, they are responsible... period. I don't care if it's a business or not. I wouldn't have such a problem with slaughter if it was done in a humane and respectful manner. If you're struggling that much as a trainer, that you need to squeeze every nickle you can out of a horse than maybe you need to consider a career change.

danceronice
Aug. 3, 2011, 04:39 PM
I don't agree with this... They own/train the horse, they are responsible... period. I don't care if it's a business or not. I wouldn't have such a problem with slaughter if it was done in a humane and respectful manner. If you're struggling that much as a trainer, that you need to squeeze every nickle you can out of a horse than maybe you need to consider a career change.

Not my business what someone does with their property. Just becasue some people insist on treating animals like their children does not mean everyone has to act like they're mini-humans.

And anyonoe who complains about "squeezing a nickle" better NEVER do a single thing with an animal based on money. Dead serious, if you insist others make their financial decisions because of subjective morality, better walk the walk. No euthing because surgery is expensive, no selling a horse if it doesn't work out or can't do your job any more (either you keep it or you pay whatever it costs for euth and disposal no matter how high), no skipping the vet because it's only some kind of pocket pet.

jenm
Aug. 4, 2011, 05:02 PM
you are right, with the exception of California and maybe another state or two there is no legal ban on horse slaughter.


California's law is supposed to prevent horses from being shipped to slaughter. Sure, it's a law but it's not enforced. The kill buyers around here are living large.


Then find another business.
Period. End of story.

Exactly. There is a thing called "responsibility". Just because a horse isn't considered a pet doesn't mean it doesn't deserve to be treated with dignity.


And as for no market for OTTBs, yes, the hunter/jumpers use them, and
compete with them. There's a new division at shows just for them.

The people who complain there is no market for OTTBs are generally the people who are looking for a quick way out. Again, the word "responsibility" comes into play.

sonomacounty
Aug. 4, 2011, 06:20 PM
Equilibrium: How are horses slaughtered in Ireland? So sorry to hear that, also.

------

General question: What is the reason horses are not shot (with a shotgun) at the slaughterhouse here? Seems this would be more direct/humane?

Tx.

up-at-5
Aug. 4, 2011, 08:07 PM
"If they can't keep them and no one wants them, what exactly are they supposed to do? It's a business--only a moron would chose to spend money putting a horse down if there was someone willing to hand them cash. (Well, a moron, or someone with money to burn or who doesn't care if he stays in business.)"

You're calling a lot of us Morons then, DOI!

Poor Lucky......I guess that $200. bucks IN your pocket means a lot more to you than being $200.00 lighter in that same pocket.

up-at-5
Aug. 4, 2011, 08:19 PM
Well disposing of 1200 pounds contaminated meat is not cheap.

And thanks to all the cidiots and NIMBYs it's not becoming any easier nor cheaper in the near future rather the opposite)

And I certainly don't see were a vet should eat the cost of a euthanasia, just because it's tewible on the owner.

It's always the same histrionics about the 'poor wittle ponies' packed into the trucks. No matter how many times the professional shippers explain that they have to be standing tight or the shifting weight puts the rig in danger.

OMG they are with strange horses....happens all the time. And in close quarters I can imagine damages are also limited.

This OMFG SLAUGHTER has become so ridiculous.
If you don't want a horse to end up in a bad situation and care more than the people owning the horses, BUY them. Keep them forever, park them on your couch.

The no slaughter rule for tracks is a PR move. The TBS still go to the dealers. Now they just have to go through a middle man

And although I am fully aware that the usual suspects don't read this, nor believe it: The meat packers don't wand bruised meat. They can't sell it. So it is in the hauler's best interest to present horses in their best possible condition.

Your posts are nonsense! Why must you use baby talk? Those of us against slaughter do not park our horses on the couch!
When you use that baby talk, it simply makes you look like a backwoods inbred with no idea how some people can actually give a sh*t without being reduced to using childish gibberish. I would so love to block your posts, but like a bad car accident, I just can't help but want to look!

danceronice
Aug. 4, 2011, 09:10 PM
Poor Lucky......I guess that $200. bucks IN your pocket means a lot more to you than being $200.00 lighter in that same pocket.

Of course it does. No money means no board check, no board check means horse gets sold (or in my case, I suppose I could prevail upon my parents to toss him in their pasture.) Only those who have never had to worry about amounts of paychecks would think it's better to spend money than save money. I never carry balances, only have a mortgage to improve my credit rating by never missing a payment and paying it off early, and don't waste money where I don't have to. I don't spend when there's an opportunity to earn. Working five jobs to stay ahead of the curve means you learn sentiment has no place in financial decisions unless you're so rich you never have to think about it. I'm not there yet.

I've seen way too many people who DON'T have that $200 to ever want to be them or question people who put money first and sentiment second to stay ahead. If the kill buyer taking the one who can't run keeps the ones who can in the barn, that's the math. There was one on the listings last year I liked, but didn't really want to pay a second board. He ended up shipping to PR, and we all know they don't come back. Shame, but if I wasn't willing to buy him and no one else was, that's the way it goes. Lucky's got a spot some other horse would have gotten. Because I bought him, some other horse probably went to Canada or Mexico or to race in Puerto Rico.

If I personally am not willing to pony up the cash for a horse and its care, it's absolutely none of my business what becomes of it, and the same goes for anyone else. They have their finances and if I am not supporting them, I have no right to dictate their decisions based on a subjective moral view of what an animal is.

fivehorses
Aug. 4, 2011, 09:27 PM
Not my business what someone does with their property. Just becasue some people insist on treating animals like their children does not mean everyone has to act like they're mini-humans.

And anyonoe who complains about "squeezing a nickle" better NEVER do a single thing with an animal based on money. Dead serious, if you insist others make their financial decisions because of subjective morality, better walk the walk. No euthing because surgery is expensive, no selling a horse if it doesn't work out or can't do your job any more (either you keep it or you pay whatever it costs for euth and disposal no matter how high), no skipping the vet because it's only some kind of pocket pet.

what is your thing about people who don't agree with slaughter and categorizing them as treating animals like mini humans?

cajunbelle
Aug. 4, 2011, 09:53 PM
Before I'm about to say what I'm going to say, I am not in favor of slaughter. But here is the reality.

The bleeding hearts who never owned, will never own, and haven't got a clue made things worse for horses by banning slaughter. Yup the darn well did. Instead of overhauling the the slaughter industry it's self to be humane for horses, they got rid of it totally in the belief all horses would get good homes. Now how silly is that? Instead of making things better for horses, they made it worse my now having them ship to other countries.

Quite frankly I am in favor of euthanasia. It also does not bug me when someone has the kennel man come and put a horse down for use in the kennels. This is not chemical but gunshot. Living in Europe shows you how things can be done correctly and humanely unlike the slaughter houses back home. You can sit there in your little bubble world and blame everyone fir those horses having a horrific and scary end, but ignoring the larger problem is a huge oversight. That problem is not enough homes for horses. So what do you all do? Slam breeders, owners, trainers. Why because they want to make money. Yeah, ok.

Racing is a large industry so they take most of the blame. Other industries don't get talked about because they are small and can get swept under the rug. But you all are a little silly to think the other sports on this very board take care til the end there high end horses that didn't turn out to expectations. Ones that will not make quiet pets per say. Ones riddled with problems that just aren't making the grade. It's all walks if equestrian life that get rid of horses that aren't making a living so to speak. But it's easier to blame the racing industry.

Horses are not pets. No amount of wishing, hoping, and dreaming will make them pets. That does not mean I do not love mine as such. But this is the reality that I have seen here in this country that has shocked me. I would much rather see a horse go to slaughter such as it is in this country, highly regulated and humane, than suffer because people are uncaring or actually beyond means of caring. Because THERE ARE WORSE THINGS THAN DEATH! First time I shouted on this board. But if people really started looking at things from that angle, the horses would benefit at the end of their lives or shall we say usefullnes.

And leave the damn money angle out of it. I'm sick and tired of people being called greedy because they got 200 for a horse going to slaughter. Answer me this, how many if you flip ex racehorses? Reschool them and get them going nice for a new owner? Do you do it for free? Do you do it for free? If you answered yes, then congratulations you are wealthy. I'm guessing you don't do it for free. Ok you can argue you are doing a service and should get paid and the others aren't. Make it right in your head any way you want. 200 is not being greedy.

I don't get the mindset. I really don't. It isn't reality. Reality is there are nit enough good homes for horses of any industry. So by banning horse slaughter it was made worse. Having convenient humane regulated slaughter houses like the ones over here would have been the correct option. But oh no, people can't wrap their heads around that option. It's better to be on double decker buses or make owners pay around 1000 to have a horse put down.

AFWIW, I was asked by 3 different people this week what I'm going to do with my 16yo ex chaser. Why I don't know. He's 16 and was supposed to never come sound 7 years ago. He's happy, fat, and semi retired. He stays with me until the end. He's doing great so unsure over the concern for Frank's well being. At his end he will be put down with dignity. That is my choice. I care about horses well being in life. So as long as people look after what they have in a loving and caring way then I don't have a right to tell someone what they should do with them at the end. I know this I'd have more respect for someone(over here) who sends a well looked after horse to slaughter than someone who send them to auction in a neglected state to be shipped off to another country. But hey, you all banned slaughter. I'm afraid this is the fallout. And it will not change. I know you all think me uncaring and a hard bitch. Far from it but you don't know me. You will ASSUME you do from reading this post.

Terri

This

danceronice
Aug. 5, 2011, 11:35 AM
what is your thing about people who don't agree with slaughter and categorizing them as treating animals like mini humans?

It's not about liking or disliking slaughter. (I don't care what you do with your horse, I object to your saying what I or anyone else can do with mine.) The thing is, the antis are, by and large, the fluffy-bunnies who seem to think it matters how an animal dies. It's a horse. It doesn't know or care one way or another and doesn't have a concept of death in any abstract sense. There is no moral issue, unless one views it as immoral to waste usable resources (chemical euthanasia.) OR if someone views a horse or any other animal as something that knows or cares about death or has any say in it, or whether it really matters what someone else does to one as if it needed some kind of child protective services. (That's opposed to antis who are against slaughter as part of larger political agenda of animal rights--they don't treat animals like children, and don't ultimately care about individual animals at all. I don't think anyone on the thread is that wacko.)

It's not a child. It's personal property that happens to breathe. A horse has no more inherent "right" not to be sold for meat than a cow or a pig or a sheep or a goat (the last of which I've had as a borrowed 'pet.' After it went back it got sold to the Mexican migrants. They don't keep farm animals as pets and it wasn't a dairy goat. Would I have slaughtered it? No. But my neighbor owned it, not me, he sold it, such is life. And to the migrants? That's a bbq. Not their fault I think of it as a pet and wouldn't do it myself.)

Better that people are free to do what they see fit with their property, even if I don't like it or wouldn't do it how they do. There is nothing special about horses over any other animal or item of property that means we should go around harassing and criminalizing others and trying to regulate their actions simply because we don't like it. No one is forced to sell a horse to slaughter if they don't approve of it, or to send them through an auction, or to train them using Parelli (or not using Parelli.) Lucky won't ever go to slaughter. How do I know? I'm not selling him. If I did, I give up any vote on what happens to him. Not my property, none of my business. Just because it's a horse doesn't change that.

Kyzteke
Aug. 5, 2011, 12:12 PM
The right thing is the thing that keeps you in business and not on the dole. That means not willfully taking a loss when there's a chance for a slim profit. Or just a smaller loss.

Injecting a horse with cobra venom is unethical. Selling it is business.

Racing IS a business. And businesses want to make a profit. Why the heck do you think so many American businesses have outsourced labor? Because they could no longer make a profit using American factories and American labor.

Again, the simplest, most effective solution IS humane slaughter. Period. More processing plants closer together. Stringent transport and holding laws. More inspection of processing plants.

Thanks to folks like Temple Grandom, this IS possible. The big plants that run cattle for operations like McDonalds & Burger King have videos in place where the big wigs of these companies can check in any time to monitor the processing. They have a VERY strict animal-welfare standard...I heard her say in an interview that the "allowable" number of animals who can show stress during the process is something like 3 o/o 100.

That's where all the effort should be, because the simple reality of the situation is that there are not enough homes for all those horses. Period. And with the aging of the Boomers, those number of homes are going to grow fewer and fewer.

These are FACTS, folks. Watch all the Disney movies you want, stick your head in the sand all you want....the FACTS don't change.

It's either that or ban horse racing all together.

And take a look at the repercussions something like that will have....

Barnfairy
Aug. 5, 2011, 12:40 PM
I've worked with cattle, both beef and dairy. I have yet to come across a racehorse that is anything remotely like a cow, regarding temperament and drug & medication protocol. We are not talking about recycling aluminum here. American horsemeat, as it stands, is largely tainted.

I know full well the difference between pets and livestock. None of the cows I knew had names; they were identified by number. Yet still, as the bread and butter of the farm, they were treated with respect because abusive and unethical practices do not pay off. When they were finished, they were processed in a system designed for them.

I've never witnessed an ox draw excitement on a national level as I have with a racehorse. I've never seen a cow crush her competition "like a tremendous machine", udder a swayin'. Don't blame me for putting emotion in horseracing. Take that up with track announcers if you want, but don't blame me.

I'm not a PETA freak. I'm not even a vegetarian. I don't think it's immoral to make a living with horses. Hard? Yes. Immoral? No.

I think it's amazing what a horse and human can accomplish together. The athleticism and try of a Thoroughbred can take my breath away. I am not anti-racing. But I am pro-horse. I don't care much what happens to the body once the horse is dead. Heck, if Danny Bird wants to eat his bute-laced horses -- that's his choice. It's what happens to the horses between the track and the captive bolt that bothers me most. Turning back the clock to a time when horses were processed locally is not going to happen.

I've met some wonderful people in racing. A few years ago I bought a filly from one of those good people. She came within a nose of breaking her maiden, but track life did not suit her. Despite the trainer's best efforts, she became ulcery and withdrawn. Naturally her performance suffered. Rather than persist and make a card-filler of her, the trainer arranged to have her CANTER listed while she was still young, sound, and full of potential for a career off the track. THAT is good business, knowing when to cut your losses. I paid significantly more than meat price for her. She would have cost her owner more than it would have been worth, had he tried to keep running her until all that was left was meat value.

The day after I brought that filly home, she colicked. Had she been on the meatman's truck, she would have been a downer. We've all seen the nasty images of how that turns out. Thankfully for her, today she is thriving on the farm.

Results are not independent of the process.

Because I am passionate about Thoroughbreds, I put my money where my mouth is. I am not wealthy. But I do know how to budget. I go without showing and fun things sometimes. Instead I have also purchased (note how I did not write "rescued") horses from racing connections that tried to get every last penny out of them while investing as little as possible. I will never regret offering those horses a better home, but I sure as heck hate that I put money into the pocekts of people who tried to run starving, neglected horses, or horses so sore they needed drugs to mask the pain. That's how you end up with horses worth nothing more than meat. The race records of some of those horses were pitiful. That wasn't good business. That was an epic fail, with the horse paying the price.

I didn't have a part in creating the problem of what to do with used-up racehorses, but I've tried to be part of the solution. I've helped with rehoming efforts in various capacities, including buying horses for myself, yet what do I get for speaking up about the issue? Mind your own business, you anthropomorphic bleeding heart.

Saying that the slaughter pipeline is good for business is like saying the aquarium should send Orca to Japan when he's all out of tricks. How many people would attend shows if that were the case? Public perception matters.

Should cash-strapped shelters sell homeless dogs to Korean restaurants? Why not - it's just an untapped resource, right? Imagine the public outcry over that.

Sometimes in business, you have to take into consideration opinons other than your own. Some tracks are recognizing that giving slaughter the a-ok is not the way to attract new fans.

Ultimately, it comes down to the horsemen, not the tracks. The owners make the decisions regarding the sale of horses and are therefore responsible.

If you are a horseman who likes the status quo, understand that you are putting the nail in your own coffin. You don't like being told to get into another business? Horseracing is on the decline, sunshine. Casinos make money; horses cost money. The way this is headed eventually racing will get the axe. The little guy had better get his head around that.

There needs to be a plan for low-cost euthanasia. 'Don't like my solution, racing industry? Come up with your own then. I didn't create the problem.

bayou_bengal
Aug. 5, 2011, 01:40 PM
Saying that the slaughter pipeline is good for business is like saying the aquarium should send Orca to Japan when he's all out of tricks. How many people would attend shows if that were the case? Public perception matters.

Should cash-strapped shelters sell homeless dogs to Korean restaurants? Why not - it's just an untapped resource, right? Imagine the public outcry over that.

Sometimes in business, you have to take into consideration opinons other than your own. Some tracks are recognizing that giving slaughter the a-ok is not the way to attract new fans.

Ultimately, it comes down to the horsemen, not the tracks. The owners make the decisions regarding the sale of horses and are therefore responsible.

If you are a horseman who likes the status quo, understand that you are putting the nail in your own coffin. You don't like being told to get into another business? Horseracing is on the decline, sunshine. Casinos make money; horses cost money. The way this is headed eventually racing will get the axe. The little guy had better get his head around that.

There needs to be a plan for low-cost euthanasia. 'Don't like my solution, racing industry? Come up with your own then. I didn't create the problem.

THIS!

I have never been part of the TB or race scene, but have heard for years about how the owners in this industry use up horses and just send them to kill because they can.

Also, I want to know how that mare was shipped and killed within 48 hours of her last race? I thought Canada had put new regs in place to try to protect horsemeat eaters form eating drug laced, tainted meat.

allintexas
Aug. 5, 2011, 02:04 PM
It's not about liking or disliking slaughter. (I don't care what you do with your horse, I object to your saying what I or anyone else can do with mine.) The thing is, the antis are, by and large, the fluffy-bunnies who seem to think it matters how an animal dies. It's a horse. It doesn't know or care one way or another and doesn't have a concept of death in any abstract sense. There is no moral issue, unless one views it as immoral to waste usable resources (chemical euthanasia.) OR if someone views a horse or any other animal as something that knows or cares about death or has any say in it, or whether it really matters what someone else does to one as if it needed some kind of child protective services. (That's opposed to antis who are against slaughter as part of larger political agenda of animal rights--they don't treat animals like children, and don't ultimately care about individual animals at all. I don't think anyone on the thread is that wacko.)

It's not a child. It's personal property that happens to breathe. A horse has no more inherent "right" not to be sold for meat than a cow or a pig or a sheep or a goat (the last of which I've had as a borrowed 'pet.' After it went back it got sold to the Mexican migrants. They don't keep farm animals as pets and it wasn't a dairy goat. Would I have slaughtered it? No. But my neighbor owned it, not me, he sold it, such is life. And to the migrants? That's a bbq. Not their fault I think of it as a pet and wouldn't do it myself.)

Better that people are free to do what they see fit with their property, even if I don't like it or wouldn't do it how they do. There is nothing special about horses over any other animal or item of property that means we should go around harassing and criminalizing others and trying to regulate their actions simply because we don't like it. No one is forced to sell a horse to slaughter if they don't approve of it, or to send them through an auction, or to train them using Parelli (or not using Parelli.) Lucky won't ever go to slaughter. How do I know? I'm not selling him. If I did, I give up any vote on what happens to him. Not my property, none of my business. Just because it's a horse doesn't change that.

Animals are personal property, but folks cannot treat them 100% as they please - hence animal cruelty laws. Based on your argument, dog-fighting, cockfighting, starving animals to death, horse-tripping - it's all ok. I am anti-slaughter because of the current methods and cruelty involved, not because of the outcome. You should read some philosophy and ethics. I would start with Temple Grandin. She is certainly no "fluffy bunny".

jenm
Aug. 5, 2011, 02:51 PM
Also, I want to know how that mare was shipped and killed within 48 hours of her last race? I thought Canada had put new regs in place to try to protect horsemeat eaters form eating drug laced, tainted meat.

Actually, he's a gelding. :) I remember asking how the horse could have been shipped and processed so quickly but I don't remember the answer. Someone created a Facebook page for him, so maybe I'll ask again.

http://www.facebook.com/RIPDeputyBroad

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Aug. 5, 2011, 02:56 PM
This just breaks my heart, because I think, there but for the grace. That could have been mine, because he raced at a very small track (Fairmount). I am grateful his breeders sent him through a paddock sale.

I support euthanasia. I understand the financial aspects. I do not understand inhumane treatment through to the death. I feel it is an obligation to do better than that. MUCH better than that.

LauraKY
Aug. 5, 2011, 04:19 PM
There are worse things than death, even in a slaughter plant. Much, much worse.

halo
Aug. 5, 2011, 07:28 PM
Your posts are nonsense! Why must you use baby talk? Those of us against slaughter do not park our horses on the couch!
When you use that baby talk, it simply makes you look like a backwoods inbred with no idea how some people can actually give a sh*t without being reduced to using childish gibberish. I would so love to block your posts, but like a bad car accident, I just can't help but want to look!

Nonsense? So far the only nonsensical post is yours.

I remember when I worked at a very large thoroughbred farm years ago, one of the tops in the business. They kept their broodmares until they couldnt produce anymore, then gave them 1 year of retirement in a large field, with trees, sheds, and all the good hay they could possibly want. Then they euthanized them. I always felt that was a very good way to handle a touchy situation.

Alagirl
Aug. 5, 2011, 09:14 PM
Your posts are nonsense! Why must you use baby talk? Those of us against slaughter do not park our horses on the couch!
When you use that baby talk, it simply makes you look like a backwoods inbred with no idea how some people can actually give a sh*t without being reduced to using childish gibberish. I would so love to block your posts, but like a bad car accident, I just can't help but want to look!

Go for it, Chica. You teeter on the edge of my ignore list anyhow.
Pretty much because of your constant low blows. But since I hardly ever pull punches, I guess it's all good.

2ndyrgal
Aug. 5, 2011, 09:50 PM
The way I see racing going (even Kentucky is too damn stupid to allow casino gambling and tie part of the profit to racing, duh) in 20 years, we won't be having this argument, there won't be any real racetracks left. Most of these guys don't really care what they bet on anymore.

Barnfairy, I like that you've helped some, as you can. You have walked the walk, so you have every right to talk the talk.


You guys can have this argument til the cows come home, it would change anything.

And what exactly do you think their gonna due with a 2 ton killer whale when he can't perform????

And shelter dogs going to Oriental restaurants??? Way to sound educated, not, but since you brought it up, have you been to a small county animal shelter recently?? Really, trust me, a swift death is far better than that. Don't believe me? Log off your computer and go stand in the smallest closet you have, but first, take an oven grate and put in on the floor. Take off your shoes and socks, put a cup of water on the floor, put a bowl of cereal on the floor. Strip naked and throw your clothes out in the hall. Shut the door. light on or off, won't matter. Play tape recorder of dogs endlessly barking.

Now stand there barefooted, on the grate until you piss yourself. lay in it. Since it's Sunday, no one will be there til monday morning. Now take a tidy little poo in the corner. Try not to lay in it, but by now you're so tired and hopeless it really doesn't matter. Monday, pay your spouse to spray out the bottom of the closet, fill your cup and bowl, and shut the door again.

Repeat for weeks at a time.

I like Moo goo gai pan.

Slaughter is a perfectly sensible alternative for unwanted horses as long as the transportation and execution are humane. And if we allow export, the slaughterhouses will be much closer and technology makes inspection from a distance instant and doable.

Again, if you have never worked at a track, owned or trained a horse, or haven't rescued one, then let it be, you have no cred at all. None.

It's like my theory on the PETA bunch. When they live naked in the woods, and don't impact the environment at all, no petrol, no electric, no materials at all, then you cannot begin to tell me what's what.

Send the money you waste on a COTH subscription and your internet access to a rescue every month.

Kyzteke
Aug. 5, 2011, 10:28 PM
Again, if you have never worked at a track, owned or trained a horse, or haven't rescued one, then let it be, you have no cred at all. None.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!

And I would add:

* or watched any animal slaughtered; whether by on the farm or at an actual slaughter plant. I''m not talking about the trumped up PETA videos, I'm talking the real thing.

* NEVER, EVER given up a cat, dog, kitten or puppy to a shelter/pound for any reason at all.

* EVER given away one of your horses because they were no longer useful to you, but you were just sure that the new owner was going to treat them great....then you just forgot about them.

* And folks who have never worked at the track REALLY need to shut up, 'cause they totally don't get how hard it is.

Oh....and I need to add that anyone who is not a strict vegan is just as guilty for animal suffering. 'Cause if you don't think the average cow, chicken, pig etc. raised in the typical "factory farm" where most of Americans gets their meat doesn't suffer (and suffer badly) from the cradle to the grave, you need to need a BIG wake up call!!

At least the average TB horse (or any horse) might have a pretty good life for the most part.

As for "tainted" meat....good gravy, have any of you looked at the long list of crap given to meat animals lately? Yeah, it's legal, but that doesn't mean it's any safer than the stuff we put into horses.

Temple Grandin is really correct and I admire her a great deal. She makes the point there is such a huge disconnect in this country between what really goes on to produce food for our tables.

Perhaps that's the biggest part of the problem.

I spent tons of summers on my grandparents farm as a child. I watched my grandmother butcher chickens and my grandpa butcher hogs.

Every summer I had a pet chicken...once I had a little banty rooster who was killed when the mule kicked him. That night he was dinner (well, him and another rooster, since banty's don't have much meat).

I did feel kind of bad eating "Little Red" ( I think I was about 8 yrs old), so Grandma gave me a drumstick from "the other" chicken (like I would know:)) and Life went on.

Now, assuming we ignore the "tainted meat" aspect, this one horse who started this discussion was dead within 48 hrs.

Prior to that (we hope) he was fairly well taken care of.

That's not really a bad deal when all is said and done....I've seen animals who probably wished for this quick a death because of their care....and I KNOW I've seen people go for years in pain and suffering due to disease and/or injury.

Life includes suffering and pain. THAT is reality. It's true for every living creature. Naturally we (the creatures) would like to avoid it at all costs, but it's just impossible.

So -- being healthy and well-cared for -- then dead within 48 hrs?

Not a bad end when all is said and done....at least IMHO.

maunder
Aug. 6, 2011, 06:43 AM
As you all know, sending animals away when not "useful" is as old as the hills, and certainly not limited to horses used for racing.

My wake up call came when I was 18 and went to the New Holland Sales as a working student field trip. I won't ever forget the chaos and distress on some of the horses. I'm not going to anthromorphosize and say they were worried about being sent to slaughter - of course not - but the kill pen horses were all packed together in a small pen and there was fighting, horses trying to get away with no room, kicking, biting and etc... I never forgot it. Put that with the owner of the fancy breeding farm that I worked for taking the school horses that no longer fit into his program straight to New Holland for a few bucks. The thought of our beloved school horses going there was horrifying. We couldn't change his mind. He was after the bucks.

Fast forward to today and you've got me who has always kept a horse, regardless of my finances or it's soundness. It's the lesson I chose to learn from New Holland. If they aren't riding sound too bad for me but there it is. They are my responsibility and that's that and I will put them down before sending them through that hell of a sale and truck ride.

I've been proactive with the Thoroughbred world by volunteering for five years with the Finger Lakes Trainer Listings. I've got a Finest of my own through that program. I have a mini horse that I took in after she was starved and five goats that no one wanted.

It's all I can do but it is a little contribution to a cause that I find necessary. I don't judge the trainers at the track but work with them to try to help them find new situations for their retiring horses. Lots of us out there do. I'm more apt to be annoyed at people who don't want their old dressage, jumper, hunter or family pet anymore because they don't find it useful. Annoys the heck out of me. Same with dogs, cats, birds and etc...

Moral of long-winded blah blah blah is do what you can proactively.

Alagirl
Aug. 6, 2011, 09:50 AM
As you all know, sending animals away when not "useful" is as old as the hills, and certainly not limited to horses used for racing.

My wake up call came when I was 18 and went to the New Holland Sales as a working student field trip. I won't ever forget the chaos and distress on some of the horses. I'm not going to anthromorphosize and say they were worried about being sent to slaughter - of course not - but the kill pen horses were all packed together in a small pen and there was fighting, horses trying to get away with no room, kicking, biting and etc... I never forgot it. Put that with the owner of the fancy breeding farm that I worked for taking the school horses that no longer fit into his program straight to New Holland for a few bucks. The thought of our beloved school horses going there was horrifying. We couldn't change his mind. He was after the bucks.

Fast forward to today and you've got me who has always kept a horse, regardless of my finances or it's soundness. It's the lesson I chose to learn from New Holland. If they aren't riding sound too bad for me but there it is. They are my responsibility and that's that and I will put them down before sending them through that hell of a sale and truck ride.

I've been proactive with the Thoroughbred world by volunteering for five years with the Finger Lakes Trainer Listings. I've got a Finest of my own through that program. I have a mini horse that I took in after she was starved and five goats that no one wanted.

It's all I can do but it is a little contribution to a cause that I find necessary. I don't judge the trainers at the track but work with them to try to help them find new situations for their retiring horses. Lots of us out there do. I'm more apt to be annoyed at people who don't want their old dressage, jumper, hunter or family pet anymore because they don't find it useful. Annoys the heck out of me. Same with dogs, cats, birds and etc...

Moral of long-winded blah blah blah is do what you can proactively.

Well, I do believe there is not really anybody who is the least bit fond of institutions like New Holland.....

halo
Aug. 6, 2011, 02:02 PM
Thoroughbreds are a small percentage of horses that go to slaughter. There are far more grade, and quarter horses and western type horses that find their way to the kill pens. Why dont people get all upset over those horses? This year there will be approx. 27,000 Thoroughbreds registered, 83,000 Quarter horses registered. So many QHs are bred for halter, that end up crippled and unable to be ridden. Plus they are heavy horses, just the type kill buyers look for. So wheres the love for them?

maunder
Aug. 6, 2011, 04:10 PM
Thoroughbreds are a small percentage of horses that go to slaughter. There are far more grade, and quarter horses and western type horses that find their way to the kill pens. Why dont people get all upset over those horses? This year there will be approx. 27,000 Thoroughbreds registered, 83,000 Quarter horses registered. So many QHs are bred for halter, that end up crippled and unable to be ridden. Plus they are heavy horses, just the type kill buyers look for. So wheres the love for them?

Good point, Halo. Since this thread was about race track anti-slaughter policies and this is the racing forum the comments have been focusing on the Thoroughbreds.

I would suggest that individuals choose their battles. I live near the track so focused my volunteer work and efforts on those horses, but also am connected with mini rescue.

Every horse deserves a chance and many folks do focus on the drafts or the nurse mare babies or saddlebreds or arabs. There is a rescue locally that has a little of each. Certainly there is no lack of horses anywhere in the states to assist.

up-at-5
Aug. 6, 2011, 08:14 PM
Go for it, Chica. You teeter on the edge of my ignore list anyhow.
Pretty much because of your constant low blows. But since I hardly ever pull punches, I guess it's all good.

Constant low blows? Hello! Baby talk, talking "down" to those who are against slaughter, insults based on your opinion of our lack of intelligence(hence, the need for baby talk, I guess) name calling, hmm, It's not my posts that are moderated miss alagirl.
I do my part to be a part of the solution, not a part of the problem.
And to DOI, you called some trainers "morons" if they don't take cash for a used up horse! WTF! Morons? Really? I have a BEAUTIFUL mare in my barn, gorgeous and uber talented..and she was a freebee from a connection at Pimlico. Yes, her trainer GAVE her away to me, as well as another mare, instead of taking the meat mans price. What a moron??.::confused:

jenm
Aug. 7, 2011, 03:51 AM
Thoroughbreds are a small percentage of horses that go to slaughter. There are far more grade, and quarter horses and western type horses that find their way to the kill pens. Why dont people get all upset over those horses? This year there will be approx. 27,000 Thoroughbreds registered, 83,000 Quarter horses registered. So many QHs are bred for halter, that end up crippled and unable to be ridden. Plus they are heavy horses, just the type kill buyers look for. So wheres the love for them?

Historical stats show that the #1 horse breed sent to slaughter is the Quarter Horse. The #2 horse breed is Thoroughbred.

The AQHA is very public about supporting horse slaughter. They make much of their money from registrations and transfers of ownerships, so it's in their best interest to encourage breeders to make more babies. More babies = more registrations = more money for the AQHA.

Schoolhouse Rock should create an episode around over breeding...:yes::no:

Stepping down off my soapbox since my intent was not to create a discussion about slaughter, but to understand why trainers can openly and admittedly send a horse to slaughter even when the track "rules" state otherwise.



And to DOI, you called some trainers "morons" if they don't take cash for a used up horse! WTF! Morons? Really? I have a BEAUTIFUL mare in my barn, gorgeous and uber talented..and she was a freebee from a connection at Pimlico. Yes, her trainer GAVE her away to me, as well as another mare, instead of taking the meat mans price. What a moron??.::confused:

The TB world needs more "morons" like the trainer you know...:yes: Kudos to both of you.

Chicagirl97
Aug. 7, 2011, 07:49 AM
If they can't keep them and no one wants them, what exactly are they supposed to do? It's a business--only a moron would chose to spend money putting a horse down if there was someone willing to hand them cash. (Well, a moron, or someone with money to burn or who doesn't care if he stays in business.)

Finger Lakes at least has some options, but the adoption program has a waiting list, and the trainer listings are't a GUARANTEE the horse will sell. The Illinois breeders and owners association has a program they're working on that would provide homes for some horses--I don't think any sort of national program is at all reasonable (they rarely are for any purpose) but do the big racing states (KY, NY, FL, CA, etc) have anything similar--run by the associations, to look after their own?

And...how do you get people to buy OTTBs? I'll tell anyone who listens aboutt them (without trashing the racing industry while I'm at it), but there need to be people willing to pony up if they don't want the horses sold to anyone with money.

I am not sure how to get your track horses, but Canter has a great program in many states. I am a proud owner of a track TB that was going to be put down from a trainer listing. She was only 3 and a half years and they were already done with her. I successfully showed her for a couple years and now she is a wonderful brood mare with the prettest babies ever. Even if you think you cant retrain a race TB you can always make some beautiful warmblood foals!

Laurierace
Aug. 7, 2011, 08:10 AM
Constant low blows? Hello! Baby talk, talking "down" to those who are against slaughter, insults based on your opinion of our lack of intelligence(hence, the need for baby talk, I guess) name calling, hmm, It's not my posts that are moderated miss alagirl.
I do my part to be a part of the solution, not a part of the problem.
And to DOI, you called some trainers "morons" if they don't take cash for a used up horse! WTF! Morons? Really? I have a BEAUTIFUL mare in my barn, gorgeous and uber talented..and she was a freebee from a connection at Pimlico. Yes, her trainer GAVE her away to me, as well as another mare, instead of taking the meat mans price. What a moron??.::confused:

I believe I facilitated that moron exchange! Eleven of them that week in fact. My busiest week ever. Thankfully there are more morons these days and less asshats that want the cash for their horse's dead body. I truly don't think the anti-slaughter policies have anything to do with that however. I think it is because they are being presented with other alternatives like me begging all of you or CANTER and the like. It never was about the money, it was about getting the horse off the payroll quickly.

up-at-5
Aug. 7, 2011, 08:30 AM
Yes, Laurierace was my Pimlico connection in helping me bring home two giveaway mares, Adelaide's Prospect and Sister Francis. Sister Francis is doing fantastic, out showing and having a wonderful life.
My coach stated the other night "you'd never know Adelaide has two massive bows by the way she moves!!"
Thankfully there are morons out there who think that it's not always about the almighty dollar. And many of those morons are not rich by any means. Both of those mares were from the same owner/trainer..so I guess he was out 400-500 bucks on that transaction.

Laurierace
Aug. 7, 2011, 10:09 AM
Most likely he wasn't out anything. It has been my experience that virtually all horses that go to the meat man from the track were giveaways as opposed to purchases. They give the horse away to the first person who will take it, regardless of what that person intends to do with it. They just want the horse out of the barn.

Alagirl
Aug. 7, 2011, 12:27 PM
Constant low blows? Hello! Baby talk, talking "down" to those who are against slaughter, insults based on your opinion of our lack of intelligence(hence, the need for baby talk, I guess) name calling, hmm, It's not my posts that are moderated miss alagirl.
I do my part to be a part of the solution, not a part of the problem.
And to DOI, you called some trainers "morons" if they don't take cash for a used up horse! WTF! Morons? Really? I have a BEAUTIFUL mare in my barn, gorgeous and uber talented..and she was a freebee from a connection at Pimlico. Yes, her trainer GAVE her away to me, as well as another mare, instead of taking the meat mans price. What a moron??.::confused:


I suppose I should be flattered that you expend this much energy on me.....

maunder
Aug. 7, 2011, 02:33 PM
I believe I facilitated that moron exchange! Eleven of them that week in fact. My busiest week ever. Thankfully there are more morons these days and less asshats that want the cash for their horse's dead body. I truly don't think the anti-slaughter policies have anything to do with that however. I think it is because they are being presented with other alternatives like me begging all of you or CANTER and the like. It never was about the money, it was about getting the horse off the payroll quickly.

Fantastic Laurierace! My Finger Lakes Finest was another moron exchange! :lol:

MMorgan
Aug. 7, 2011, 03:47 PM
I wouldn't put too much stock in being labeled a moron; after all, the Danceronice Intelligence Scale for Adults (DISA) is not well-normed, shows tremendous bias, and based on the test's criteria, Michael Gill measures in the genius range. I'll stick with the WAIS.

Alagirl
Aug. 7, 2011, 03:58 PM
I wouldn't put too much stock in being labeled a moron; after all, the Danceronice Intelligence Scale for Adults (DISA) is not well-normed, shows tremendous bias, and based on the test's criteria, Michael Gill measures in the genius range. I'll stick with the WAIS.

LOL, you know that genius and madness are very close together on that scale, too! (not to mention that sociopaths also tend to score high...)

but as my dear Grandmothers would have said: Wenn es Brei regnet muss man weinen Loeffel haben.
to paraphrase: it pays to be in the right spot at the right time.

But in essence it's about the right of the various morons to give away or sell the horses they don't care to keep any longer.

Blinkers On
Aug. 7, 2011, 04:17 PM
Those of you that disagree that racing is a business, and that all "race horses" should meet a dignified, peaceful end, in a lovely setting surrounded by people who love them and have cared for them til their dying day, please just stop saying that the owners/trainers are the bad guys. If you have a useful horse, sell it cheap to someone and go get a OTTB that has a chip in it's knee, a suspensory injury, an "old" bow. Now, spend the money to geld it. Plan to go take care of it yourself, every day, because a great many of these horses cannot, at least initially, be handled by the kind of novice barn workers most boarding stables employ. Get ready to pay more because that same barn is not going to give your new horse NEARLY enough hay to keep him in good weight. Be prepared to deal with the fact that he stall walks, constantly, so even if you own a hay farm, he's going to be a hard keeper. Now, we hope you have a terrific farrier that really knows what he's doing or those shelly feet with underrun heels are going to plague you for a long time. And if you get one that has wintered in Florida? Start buying blankets now, because he may or may not grow a decent haircoat this year. Or next. Be prepared to learn how to ride in a totally different manner than you do now. Oh, and be prepared for the fact that he's never crosstied, and won't stand still to be mounted. Oh, he doesn't like to be groomed much, and is so head shy you have to unbuckle his bridle from the top to get it on him. Oh, and make a quick vet appointment for the afternoon of the first morning you plan to turn him out, since he'll blow a stifle going stupid, he's now 6 years old, and he hasn't been turned out in a field since he was two. Oh, and forget taking your children around him, he pins his ears and bites at anything or anyone that dares come past his stall. Oh, he bit the barn girl when she didn't drop his feed fast enough and they want you to get the nutcase out of their barn NOW? Damn, well maybe you can find a place to pasture board him.. the trainer said he was a mean, nasty, SOB, but you thought he just needed love. He hates your guts and you're scared of him.

This sadly, is part of the reality. For every feel good story, there are way more just like this. I've saved, rehabbed, quit on and put down more than my share over the years, but what you learn is they are not all cut out to be pets. It's like when the rescue people say Pitt Bulls are misunderstood. No they aren't, they were bred for decades to be agressive and they are. Race horses are bred to run as fast and far as they can. They are NOT bred for temperment, intelligence or anything other than speed and stamina. It is a big money business, and like it or not, racing is the product, horses are the inventory.

I think that Thoroughbred horses are quite possibly, even the worst ones, the most beautiful, soul sirring beings on God's Green Earth. The ill-bred, awful looking common ones turn into hot silk in motion when they run. I hate that so many of them will not get to live out their days in sunshine and lush fields.

I had my last OTTB, who turned out to be the most wonderful show hunter I'll ever have, put to sleep on Sept 11. He was 27 years old. Until the last month of his life, he still galloped for fun, and smoked all the young horses in the field easily, and he loved every minute of it.

The last month of his life, he was unable to run. He was miserable.

I let him go.


Sometimes, the right thing, isn't the easy thing, and not the most pretty, feel good thing.

WOW, you paint a REALLY good.. enter eye roll here. I sincerely hope you and your mistaken views on TB's and pit bulls don't work in rescue.

MMorgan
Aug. 7, 2011, 04:19 PM
Oops, I made an error in my original post. It's the Danceronice Intelligence Scale for Sissies (DISS). Sorry about that. My thanks and respect for all those who scored in the Moron range.

Alagirl
Aug. 7, 2011, 04:21 PM
Oops, I made an error in my original post. It's the Danceronice Intelligence Scale for Sissies (DISS). Sorry about that. My thanks and respect for all those who scored in the Moron range.


moron

<ducks and runs>

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

halo
Aug. 7, 2011, 04:37 PM
WOW, you paint a REALLY good.. enter eye roll here. I sincerely hope you and your mistaken views on TB's and pit bulls don't work in rescue.

Actually that was a very thought provoking post, and I agree with it. There are many TBs not suitable for pleasure and show homes. And I wont even get into the pitbull discussion; suffice to say, she is exactly right, they are good at what they are bred for.

Blinkers On
Aug. 7, 2011, 05:41 PM
Actually, She's not, BUT feel free to throw your head into the stero typical bull sh*t um err sand...

I must restate, I hope neither of you work in rescue

Laurierace
Aug. 7, 2011, 06:07 PM
Actually, She's not, BUT feel free to throw your head into the stero typical bull sh*t um err sand...

I must restate, I hope neither of you work in rescue

Not only is she not right, she couldn't be more wrong in my opinion. You are welcome in my barn any day of the week so I can prove how wrong you are. You may find one in a million horses that fits your description but they could be of any breed.

Mariska
Aug. 7, 2011, 06:47 PM
I heard today that owner/trainer Danny Bird at Mountaineer sent a horse to a kill buyer less than 48 hours after it had raced. The horse, Deputy Broad, last raced on July 11th.

The kill buyer, Fred Bauer, confirmed receipt of and shipment of the horse to Richelieu.

Mountaineer supposedly has an anti-slaughter policy, but it sure doesn't seem like it's being followed or enforced.

Now, in all fairness, I learned about Deputy Broad's fate on Facebook, so if anyone has information to the contrary, please set me straight.

Does anyone here know Danny Bird and is he really that slimy?

Jenm - There is a Canadian Horse Defence Coalition blog post that seems to verify that Deputy Broad was sent to slaughter: http://canadianhorsedefencecoalition.wordpress.com/2011/07/31/the-sad-fall-of-a-racehorse/

If you scroll down through the comments, more of the story emerges. Mary Johnson, a well known animal rights advocate based in Columbus, Ohio was notified the horse was in jeopardy and was trying to remove him from the track when he was sent to kill. She has purchased many at-risk horses and Mountaineer has a CANTER presence so Danny Bird had options. I believe he had the horse killed out of spite.

Mountaineer Race Track was featured in a 2008 ESPN special that documented the tragic fate of a filly named "No Day Off" who was sent to kill after finishing her last race. Trainers at Mountaineer sent their horses to Sugarceek and New Holland to be purchased for meat. After the public embarassment of the documentary they implemented the no-kill policy which they have done nothing to enforce. It actually has made things worse for the horses because it has driven the slaughter pipeline underground.

There is an effort to publicize this incident via Facebook with the RIP Deputy Broad page. Hopefully we can get enough momentum built up to force Mountaineer to enforce their own policies.

tradewind
Aug. 7, 2011, 07:03 PM
I will state for the record that my current horse raced for over 8 years and had over 60 starts...he weaves (although less than 3 years ago) was completely stupid at first about turn out, has horrible feet, and old suspensories, an old ankle, dry hocks, was gelded late because of his serious breeding etc. He is also great to be groomed, fabuolous to ride, parks my old fat middle aged ass around, is sound for what I need him for.. is good for vet, farrier, hated chiro, and is still OCD..I would not trade him for anything...2indrygal acts like nobody in their right mind would take on a less than blemish free OTTB. Just not true...I do not need a blemish free, jump the moon, win a confo class horse. I needed a calm and nice, flat work horse. I also was prepared to give the horse time off, invest in reschooling by a person who knew what the hell they were doing, and a farrier who did too. This horse makes me feel young again although I am decidely not so at all. He is my reward to myself for working my ass off since I was 14. Do I also enjoy that he had a really good race record, and a really good pedigree. Sure, who would not...the thought of him meeting a less than savory fate makes me ill, despite the reality that there are not enough homes for all of them. But at least he did not meet that fate, and neither did the two pasture pet OTTBs sitting at my farm. I can't save them all, but it does make me feel good to know I made a difference in those three. I also have made a difference for the fosters I have helped with, even if it was temporary. There are many people I know who feel the same. I love racing, always have, always will. That does not mean I love the end game for many deserving horses that don't have a nice place to go to when they are done racing. One is not mutually exclusive of the other. And most OTTBs I have met are no where near as bad as that poster made things out to be....

2ndyrgal
Aug. 7, 2011, 07:43 PM
You know Laurierace, I agree with almost all of your posts, except the one that says I have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm absolutely sure your barn is top notch in terms of care and that you will make every effort to rehome as many as possible to appropriate homes. And I admire that, I really do.

My point was not about Pimlico, Churchill, Saratoga. Fair Hill. It was more about Mountaineer, Beulah, Turfway, River Downs. The tracks that have a glut of horses that are at the extreme low-end of the scale. Horses that have been run until there is nothing left, and jugged with God knows what. I've taken care of horses that had wonderful breeding and made tons of money for their connections. They were beautiful, and had wonderful conformation. Had been given the care befitting something that was of quality and expected to give a return on the investment. Many of them retired on their owner's or trainer's farms, went on to the breeding shed or were sold for way more than a meat price and went on to other careers.

I've also taken care of 2K claimer's and those that were even cheaper.. I've been in shouting and shoving matches because some gyp trainer who's cheap, barely holding together horse didn't get a check and hot and steaming on a day with freezing rain he was going to load the poor thing onto an open stock trailer that looked like it's previous job was taking pigs to slaughter. I've spent every dime I have and bought one to keep from seeing it break down on it's next work or race. I re-habbed and rehomed dozens of them, and I've held far too many leadshanks of horses that broke down on the track. My husband and I called our own vet (and paid) one night at a gas station off the interstate when somebody claimed one and then just shoved her on the trailer, no walk, no water, just strip off the tack and throw her on the trailer, and they were walking her around, wringing wet, trying to lay down in the parking lot, with no cell phone, no money and no f**king clue. I spent 3K on a worthless rescue off the interstate next to our farm only to give the horse away to a good home here on COTH where she's thriving.

So don't presume to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about and roll your eyes, I've been at the damn bottom of the industry, right down in it, doing what I could, when I could, how I could. If I took a year out of my life, went back, made an absolutely true documentary about the backside practices at the cheap, no hope racetracks with just half of what goes on, it would make PETA and the whale warriors look like rookies. I'm not sure even you have any real idea the lengths these losers will stoop to to make a horse keep running. Rattlesnake venom is just the beginning, truly.

You can blame anyone you want, but what reality really is, and I don't care if you admit it or not, is that as long as you have owners and trainers who are just in it for the glory (at whatever that pitifull level may be) you're going to have cheap nickel horses that are so used up, so conformationally inferior to begin with and so ill treated, ill-broke, that unless you do what some of the STB people do(sell them to the Amish (what a great life THAT is)) then you're going to have people dumping them and leaving them to starve, inexperienced people that are going to 'save' them, then can't deal with the mentality, or a guy that is just going to, right or wrong, moral or not, cut his losses. Except for standing around in comfort on someone's farm, truly, they aren't good for much else, not in most situations.

There are people that thought keeping Barbaro alive was cruel. He wasn't my horse, maybe doing every financial thing you can is right, maybe it's not. No one would have blamed them for euthing him on the spot, and you'd still have the same people banging the 2 and 3 year olds shouldn't race drums, and maybe, with the fragility of modern day TB's, they're right. Actually, that alone would solve the problem, I've got it Laurierace, just go right into the Secretary's office tomorrow, and tell them that you think that racing 2 and 3 y/o horses is cruel, too many breakdowns, and how bout you all start racing them at 4??

Only the rich folks that could afford to wait would still be in business and viola' no more Barbaro's no more (whatever the filly's name ;;Belles' was), and no more bottom line players that couldn't afford to take care of the horse after it was done.

Problem solved.

Race horses are, unfortunately, in this country, very very purpose bred and there aren't as many different lines as there should be. They're lighter, more fragile, etc.

You hear about a lot of steeplechasers and timber horses racing for a long career then retiring and foxhunting. Not nearly as many dirt horses. Lots of eventers have long and legendary careers. Not dirt horses.

There are reasons for this. Nearly any idiot can get a trainers license and in spite of all the rules, they're broken every day, on every race track in the country. Filthy stalls, filthy tack, crap hay, dull hair, every rib showing and running anyway. It's wrong and it's bs and it happens every day.

So no, I don't have any "blinkers on", I've been right there.
Do you have your own farm Laurie? Do you keep track of and buy back every horse you've ever had for training in your barn? Or do you give them to someone you "think" will be ok (as long as they don't lose their job, get a divorce, decide they don't want him) and just hope for the best?

My hope is that some of them keep you up at night, wondering, "what if??"

While I don't know where all of my previously owned horses are, the ones that were turned out, calmed down, and socialized with other horses and learned to do another job are, I know where the ones that would not have transitioned to any other life are. Do you??

2ndyrgal
Aug. 7, 2011, 07:55 PM
I don't think they're all bad, and I applaud ANYONE who takes those less than perfect, light work, companion animals on, but the reality is, that on this very bb, there are SHOW HORSES AND PETS that have served out their years, won the ribbons, are "gorgeous and have wonderful manners and bombproof" and are FREE!!! Most of the general public has to pay to keep their horse somewhere and they want him to be useable for what they want to do with him.

I'm talking about the horses that are going to need thousands of dollars worth of veterinary care, and will not adjust to someone that has little suzy from high school trying to find the extra money to do all, that may never be sound again.

I'm talking about those horses.

And while we're talking about it, almost all of the trainers have figured out what the buying public wants in the OTTB, pretty, sound, quiet. They put way more than meat prices on those and have for years.

How many used up horses that you bought that way, are standing in your barns??? I kept my OTTB former show hunter until he was 27 years old and buried him up on the hill. He had a HUGE ankle, I loved him to death and never once won a hack with him because he flattened his ears at every other horse he passed until the day he died. He was cheap, I loved him and trust me when I tell you, that we didn't always win over fences, but it wasn't because he had a rail or a refusal. I could have bought anything I wanted, and I bought a plain dark bay with no white markings, the most common looking thing you ever saw, with a trot that felt like he had straight legs, girthy, pacy,. not a lovey dovey horse by any stretch and I wouldn't have traded him for anything. I miss him daily. He was the last in a long line of OTTBs I've had, or at least probably the last. I have a trainer a week call me with a free one. I've done mine. Go do yours. If you don't have a free OTTB in your barn but you have a useful horse, then just shut up about it. It's just like bitching about the government and then telling me you don't vote because it won't make a difference.

Or, If you cant afford to keep one, then just go over to your local race track and tell them you'll pay for the next three euthanasia procedures they do and the disposal charges.

Then you can PM me and tell me what you think of my opinions. Mine are based in fact, not emotion.

Laurierace
Aug. 7, 2011, 08:13 PM
Who is this you that you keep referring to? Me? I would put my rescue record up against anyone's including the reputable rescues we all like to talk about. The horses I have helped rehome number at least 100. And not a single one of them was a trainwreck such as you described.
And no I won't tell the racing secretary not to write races for horses until they are four because she doesn't take orders from me and I do not think that would change anything. There have been countless studies showing the importance of strenuous activity on the skeletal system at a young age. Google the MD shin study for one such example.
You can bash trainers and owners and race tracks all you like but when you start bashing the horses themselves that gets my attention.

LauraKY
Aug. 7, 2011, 08:19 PM
Well said, 2ndyrgrl, I have two in my barn and an ex-jock friend who was sickened by what he saw at some of those last tier tracks.

tradewind
Aug. 7, 2011, 08:34 PM
I have spent thousands upon thousands in vet bills for my pasture pets as well as the one I desciribed to you earlier. I don't want an atta girl, I did it because I thought it was the right thing to do, just in case the you you are referring to was me. One was absolutely never going to be sound from the get go...the other had a possibility that was not meant to be. As my vet said to me, with what you have put into these, you could have had a Porsche. This does not include the 33 year old pony that has been retired for almost a decade.

kcmel
Aug. 7, 2011, 10:18 PM
I've worked with cattle, both beef and dairy. I have yet to come across a racehorse that is anything remotely like a cow, regarding temperament and drug & medication protocol. We are not talking about recycling aluminum here. American horsemeat, as it stands, is largely tainted.

I know full well the difference between pets and livestock. None of the cows I knew had names; they were identified by number. Yet still, as the bread and butter of the farm, they were treated with respect because abusive and unethical practices do not pay off. When they were finished, they were processed in a system designed for them.

I've never witnessed an ox draw excitement on a national level as I have with a racehorse. I've never seen a cow crush her competition "like a tremendous machine", udder a swayin'. Don't blame me for putting emotion in horseracing. Take that up with track announcers if you want, but don't blame me.

I'm not a PETA freak. I'm not even a vegetarian. I don't think it's immoral to make a living with horses. Hard? Yes. Immoral? No.

I think it's amazing what a horse and human can accomplish together. The athleticism and try of a Thoroughbred can take my breath away. I am not anti-racing. But I am pro-horse. I don't care much what happens to the body once the horse is dead. Heck, if Danny Bird wants to eat his bute-laced horses -- that's his choice. It's what happens to the horses between the track and the captive bolt that bothers me most. Turning back the clock to a time when horses were processed locally is not going to happen.

I've met some wonderful people in racing. A few years ago I bought a filly from one of those good people. She came within a nose of breaking her maiden, but track life did not suit her. Despite the trainer's best efforts, she became ulcery and withdrawn. Naturally her performance suffered. Rather than persist and make a card-filler of her, the trainer arranged to have her CANTER listed while she was still young, sound, and full of potential for a career off the track. THAT is good business, knowing when to cut your losses. I paid significantly more than meat price for her. She would have cost her owner more than it would have been worth, had he tried to keep running her until all that was left was meat value.

The day after I brought that filly home, she colicked. Had she been on the meatman's truck, she would have been a downer. We've all seen the nasty images of how that turns out. Thankfully for her, today she is thriving on the farm.

Results are not independent of the process.

Because I am passionate about Thoroughbreds, I put my money where my mouth is. I am not wealthy. But I do know how to budget. I go without showing and fun things sometimes. Instead I have also purchased (note how I did not write "rescued") horses from racing connections that tried to get every last penny out of them while investing as little as possible. I will never regret offering those horses a better home, but I sure as heck hate that I put money into the pocekts of people who tried to run starving, neglected horses, or horses so sore they needed drugs to mask the pain. That's how you end up with horses worth nothing more than meat. The race records of some of those horses were pitiful. That wasn't good business. That was an epic fail, with the horse paying the price.

I didn't have a part in creating the problem of what to do with used-up racehorses, but I've tried to be part of the solution. I've helped with rehoming efforts in various capacities, including buying horses for myself, yet what do I get for speaking up about the issue? Mind your own business, you anthropomorphic bleeding heart.

Saying that the slaughter pipeline is good for business is like saying the aquarium should send Orca to Japan when he's all out of tricks. How many people would attend shows if that were the case? Public perception matters.

Should cash-strapped shelters sell homeless dogs to Korean restaurants? Why not - it's just an untapped resource, right? Imagine the public outcry over that.

Sometimes in business, you have to take into consideration opinons other than your own. Some tracks are recognizing that giving slaughter the a-ok is not the way to attract new fans.

Ultimately, it comes down to the horsemen, not the tracks. The owners make the decisions regarding the sale of horses and are therefore responsible.

If you are a horseman who likes the status quo, understand that you are putting the nail in your own coffin. You don't like being told to get into another business? Horseracing is on the decline, sunshine. Casinos make money; horses cost money. The way this is headed eventually racing will get the axe. The little guy had better get his head around that.

There needs to be a plan for low-cost euthanasia. 'Don't like my solution, racing industry? Come up with your own then. I didn't create the problem.

Best post ever!

Blinkers On
Aug. 8, 2011, 05:57 PM
Not only is she not right, she couldn't be more wrong in my opinion. You are welcome in my barn any day of the week so I can prove how wrong you are. You may find one in a million horses that fits your description but they could be of any breed.
GOOD for you, Laurie!!!

2ndyrgal
Aug. 8, 2011, 08:34 PM
I'm not picking on you, as I said the very first thing in my first post, I have, until this point, agreed with every thing you've ever posted.

I have no doubt that you are in a unique position to help as many horses as you can, and I'm sure that you have. If you've never had a train wreck, and don't know any horses, or just one or two that fit my description of some of the bottom of the barrel that race daily in the lowest tier tracks, then you are truly blessed.

While there are studies in more than one species saying strenuous activity is good, and indeed necessary for proper skeletal development, I'm not sure that same study did any accompanying study on the stress on developing tendon and ligaments, or even joints, those usually just have to do with appropriate growth and bone density, though I've never read the one of which you speak.

My opinion is based on pure observations and years of that observing. There are far fewer horses racing at an older age and retiring sound but slow than there used to be. Since largely, horses are not significantly faster in the last couple of decades than they ever were, the surfaces remain, except for polytrack (and I don't think the lower tier tracks have much but dirt) much the same as ever, you have to look to breeding, conformation, and training practices.

What my original post said, before everyone rolled their eyes and got their panties in a wad is this. Not every OTTB is suitable for any useful purpose once it gets to the point where they can't race, and there simply are not enough good, or even mediocre homes for them. Laurie, and others, HAVE done their part and then some, my post did not actually address those people, it's the people that just jump up and down and scream "hey you can't just kill them" and have a show horse in a cushy stall and wouldn't know what to do with anything that walked it's stall, weaved, or stood on it's hind legs for the first 15 feet on the way to turn out.

Not every horse, when it's done with what ever the original purpose it was bred for is suitable for anything else. Not everyone has the resourses to rehome or euth and bury every horse they own. Should they? Well hell, I called the Sheriff's dept the other day because a guy was in a store shopping and left a full coated St Bernard in the back of his black pickup truck in the heat of the day and it was 95 with a heat index of 105. We watched for 15 minutes, called the store he was in, got a "so what" and called the county sheriff. They were not happy with him, he didn't see what the big deal was. I did.

I don't think the guy across the street is good to his cows because they are covered with flies every day, all day.. a little fly spray wouldn't bother me, I eat meat, and figure I've absorbed enough over the years to be immune.. he thinks they're just cows. He thinks I'm an idiot because my horse is kept in conditions that are befitting the most valuable TB stud on the earth. He has no value except to me.

My point is this, you can moan all you want, but he sold the horse to a meat guy, not to a girl, who sold him to a guy, who sold him to a meat guy.

I called today about a 2 year old, good bred, Storm Cat grandson, that is sound, sane, never raced, and free. I passed, and here's why..

He'll get a good, useful home, where he can be a show hunter, foxhunt, dressage or something. He lives out, he's easy.

If I decide to get another horse, it will be a problem child just like the last 30 or so have been, because I can.

I'm not bashing the racing industry, trainers, owners, and I'd never bash the horses. The Thoroughbred is the most beautiful animal God put on this earth, and they all deserve to be treated well, even if they don't turn out as hoped for.

A great many of them just don't get though do they?

gumtree
Aug. 9, 2011, 08:25 PM
Because it's a business asset. Not a pet. Only a complete moron makes business decisions based entirely on sentiment that require taking an even bigger loss than they're already taking on a bad runner. It's a horse, not a human. It doesn't ultimately matter to the HORSE how it dies if it's going to die, and if no 'loving forever home' is willing to cough up, that's what's going to happen. Bolts and bullets are quick and at least something gets to use the carcass.

WOW, are you for real? Or just stirring things up?

I am not a hobbyist nor naïve. I have worked my entire life with horses. Trainer, owner, breeder, groom, hot walker, etc. I got a lot of stick for not supporting the anti slaughter laws as being nothing but feel good legislation. And will only make matters worse. That being said any animal has the right to be treated humanly right up to the time you put a bullet in their head. If you make your living with horses, racing or any other discipline and feel they are the same as cattle or chickens you should be banned, tarred and feathered and run out town on a rail . There are only two animals that totally capitulate to man’s will, horses and dogs. I agree with some of your moronic statements to a certain degree but if you are so down on your luck and are so desperate for a few hundred bucks then you have no business training or owning any horses. Trainers and owners owe it to their horse to try and find a decent home to the best of their ability and these days there are plenty of places to at least try. And if that fails then the horse should be humanly put down. Again if you and or your owner can not afford a few hundred bucks to do the right thing then you have no business in racing. Period no argument.

Rbow
Aug. 9, 2011, 08:35 PM
WOW, are you for real? Or just stirring things up?

I am not a hobbyist nor naïve. I have worked my entire life with horses. Trainer, owner, breeder, groom, hot walker, etc. I got a lot of stick for not supporting the anti slaughter laws as being nothing but feel good legislation. And will only make matters worse. That being said any animal has the right to be treated humanly right up to the time you put a bullet in their head. If you make your living with horses, racing or any other discipline and feel they are the same as cattle or chickens you should be banned, tarred and feathered and run out town on a rail . There are only two animals that totally capitulate to man’s will, horses and dogs. I agree with some of your moronic statements to a certain degree but if you are so down on your luck and are so desperate for a few hundred bucks then you have no business training or owning any horses. Trainers and owners owe it to their horse to try and find a decent home to the best of their ability and these days there are plenty of places to at least try. And if that fails then the horse should be humanly put down. Again if you and or your owner can not afford a few hundred bucks to do the right thing then you have no business in racing. Period no argument.

Thank you for posting your thoughts. I've been a racing fan for many years, but this thread has made me think about it.

witherbee
Aug. 10, 2011, 09:33 AM
My issue with the debate is that there ARE responsible owners, trainers, breeders out there and many of us have ties to the show world as well. Things are changing - not quickly and some people will never change, but we are all tarred by the same feather in these threads and by some holier than thou show people from other disciplines. Those same disciplines that also have their dirty little secrets related to medication, soundness (or lack thereof), abuse, sending to auction etc. That doesn't mean that we shouln't still focus on improving conditions for racehorses, but the vindictiveness and apparant belief that we are all monsters does not help the dialog at all.

I do believe that some of the focus of even the extreme groups (that I do not support) has at least caused racing to act more than they would have without media attention. Some of the more famous injuries/breakdowns/deaths have brought that attention, and some good has come out of that as well. Same as with some less high profile sports.

I think the answer is to keep putting pressure on owners and trainers to do the right thing, while also working hard to support the groups that help rehome the horses after they are retired from racing (CANTER, TROT and the various retirement groups). I like that the JC sends literature with the registration materials about contributions that can be made and I like the idea of the ReRun stickers for owners to put on papers and the Thoroughbred Connect database. We now need to encourage more owners and trainers to use those and to check those resources and check with the breeders too to see if they can help with retraining costs, layup, rehoming. I also think euthanasia for some cases may be the answer - cases where the horse will not be sound or comfortable, or cases where the horse is dangerous.

Anyway, I think the attention is a good thing, but I would hope that attention would also be paid in other disciplines and that there would be recognition that MANY people are trying to do the right thing....

maunder
Aug. 10, 2011, 11:04 AM
My issue with the debate is that there ARE responsible owners, trainers, breeders out there and many of us have ties to the show world as well. Things are changing - not quickly and some people will never change, but we are all tarred by the same feather in these threads and by some holier than thou show people from other disciplines. Those same disciplines that also have their dirty little secrets related to medication, soundness (or lack thereof), abuse, sending to auction etc. That doesn't mean that we shouln't still focus on improving conditions for racehorses, but the vindictiveness and apparant belief that we are all monsters does not help the dialog at all.

I do believe that some of the focus of even the extreme groups (that I do not support) has at least caused racing to act more than they would have without media attention. Some of the more famous injuries/breakdowns/deaths have brought that attention, and some good has come out of that as well. Same as with some less high profile sports.

I think the answer is to keep putting pressure on owners and trainers to do the right thing, while also working hard to support the groups that help rehome the horses after they are retired from racing (CANTER, TROT and the various retirement groups). I like that the JC sends literature with the registration materials about contributions that can be made and I like the idea of the ReRun stickers for owners to put on papers and the Thoroughbred Connect database. We now need to encourage more owners and trainers to use those and to check those resources and check with the breeders too to see if they can help with retraining costs, layup, rehoming. I also think euthanasia for some cases may be the answer - cases where the horse will not be sound or comfortable, or cases where the horse is dangerous.

Anyway, I think the attention is a good thing, but I would hope that attention would also be paid in other disciplines and that there would be recognition that MANY people are trying to do the right thing....

Great post! Thank you! :yes:

Pristine
Aug. 11, 2011, 03:47 PM
Horses are the ones earning the purses. Without them there is no horse racing whether it is Thoroughbred,Standardbred,Quarter Horse,Arabian,etc. People who make their living from horses owe their livelihood to the horses. Without the horses they earn nothing. People should pay their debts and show their gratitude to those that support them. Everybody owes the horses. The breeders,trainers,jockeys,grooms,hotwalkers,track owners,stewards,ticket sellers,outriders,etc. If they all paid their debts to the horses then the horses would not go to slaughter. People have sent other people off to die or kill in the mass murder called war. Those who care only about themselves do not care about the fate of other people either. People have used and some still use other people as though they were property. Some people called other people property to be disposed of as they saw fit and while illegal some still do. No living breathing being with a soul an intellect is the same as an inanimate object that cannot suffer physically or emotionally no matter what species they are. Kindness should be extended to all creatures no matter what they were bred for.

witherbee
Aug. 12, 2011, 03:21 PM
Horses are the ones earning the purses. Without them there is no horse racing whether it is Thoroughbred,Standardbred,Quarter Horse,Arabian,etc. People who make their living from horses owe their livelihood to the horses. Without the horses they earn nothing. People should pay their debts and show their gratitude to those that support them. Everybody owes the horses. The breeders,trainers,jockeys,grooms,hotwalkers,track owners,stewards,ticket sellers,outriders,etc. If they all paid their debts to the horses then the horses would not go to slaughter. People have sent other people off to die or kill in the mass murder called war. Those who care only about themselves do not care about the fate of other people either. People have used and some still use other people as though they were property. Some people called other people property to be disposed of as they saw fit and while illegal some still do. No living breathing being with a soul an intellect is the same as an inanimate object that cannot suffer physically or emotionally no matter what species they are. Kindness should be extended to all creatures no matter what they were bred for.

Just like people do in the rest of the business world? My pension was eliminated almost 10 years ago along with most of the large corporations and just about everyone's "future care" related benefits are being eliminated as well - so you are going to hold racing to a standard that is not even there for humans? And how do you propose that is done? Are you going to require the same thing for riding stables (they make their money from horses), pet shops, grooming establishments, and all pet breeders too?

I agree, there are a lot of things in life that SHOULD be, but people are talking about mandating legally or via policy the long term after-care of these horses. That I do not agree with - at least not as a blanket statement....

sonomacounty
Aug. 12, 2011, 07:36 PM
"so you are going to hold racing to a standard that is not even there for humans?"

So sorry about your pension, WB. Eeesh. It is scary out there. I don't know how a lot of people will be actually able to retire, myself too. Things are not like they used to be.

The difference, though, is people get to make choices (investments, retirement plans, etc.) for themselves and our horses can't.

Alagirl
Aug. 12, 2011, 07:44 PM
"so you are going to hold racing to a standard that is not even there for humans?"

So sorry about your pension, WB. Eeesh. It is scary out there. I don't know how a lot of people will be actually able to retire, myself too. Things are not like they used to be.

The difference, though, is people get to make choices (investments, retirement plans, etc.) for themselves and our horses can't.


I don't know, but I think nobody chose to lose their funds in the market crash...back to square one...

sonomacounty
Aug. 12, 2011, 07:55 PM
"I don't know, but I think nobody chose to lose their funds in the market crash...back to square one..."

True. And apologies to WB.

Yes, dilemmas all around.

up-at-5
Aug. 12, 2011, 08:03 PM
"I don't know, but I think nobody chose to lose their funds in the market crash...back to square one..."

True. And apologies to WB.

Yes, dilemmas all around.

?? If you choose to invest in mutual funds or the stock market, you accept the risk that comes with it, period. With the chance of greater returns comes the risk of loss.
If you're talking pension funds managed by portfolio managers, I do believe you get to vote on how your pension is managed.
Not a valid comparison, imho.

LauraKY
Aug. 12, 2011, 08:32 PM
Funny, a couple of us were talking about humane euthasia this morning and we all agreed, a properly used bolt gun is more humane than pink juice, especially if you sedate them first.

As for the other, blaming people who lose a good portion of their retirement funds because they may not have invested as wisely as they might have, or even worse, because their company eliminated their pensions. Shame on you. There but for the grace of whoever. Wait, I understand, if you're down financially, it's all your fault and no one should help, but if you're doing extremely well, the heck with everyone else. Nice. That's the Christian way, right. Sorry for the vent, I'm getting pretty tired of the nasty blame game. Put it away and stick to the subject at hand.

Alagirl
Aug. 12, 2011, 09:45 PM
?? If you choose to invest in mutual funds or the stock market, you accept the risk that comes with it, period. With the chance of greater returns comes the risk of loss.
If you're talking pension funds managed by portfolio managers, I do believe you get to vote on how your pension is managed.
Not a valid comparison, imho.

Obtuse as ever...

You get a 401k retirement account (if you are lucky to be able to) you are investing in the market. The only alternative is to bury your money in Mason jars in the back yard....
:rolleyes:

up-at-5
Aug. 13, 2011, 08:25 AM
Obtuse as ever...

You get a 401k retirement account (if you are lucky to be able to) you are investing in the market. The only alternative is to bury your money in Mason jars in the back yard....
:rolleyes:

I may be wrong, but aren't your 401k's just like our RRSP's?(Registered Retirement Savings Plan) You choose to put money in? And you also choose how it is invested? I make my living helping people invest wisely. There is no blame on my part, I'm simply saying that if a person lost their investments because they made unwise decisions, lost all their retirement money, well, the only one accountable is themselves. Can you not choose between the market and guaranteed investments such as term deposits?
That being said, if it is your company pension that is taking a hit, that just sucks. Many people up here know their company pension may be shoddy, so they also invest on their own.
Things are different here, we are not in the same boat the US is in, now are we! Let's discuss this more on an off topic day.

Mah Navu
Aug. 13, 2011, 10:36 AM
I'd like to say a few words, from someone who knows next to nothing about the racing industry, and the only thing I have to judge it by is my OTTB Beauseant (registered name Brother Bill).

I have heard the horrible stories of how evil the trainers/breeders are, and I believed them. These people are painted in the media as monsters, the epitome of evil.....and they create these monsterous devil horses that will maul and kill you at the drop of a hat, the OTTB. Horses that were beaten, denied turnout, human companionship, denied a normal horse life....

But then we got our OTTB, and he was not what we expected. He ADORES people, perhaps too much so. He is way too emotionally dependent on humans, IMO. With other horses, he is very socially inept, and aggressive.

So what can I say about the OTTB life from our horse alone?

Well, the people he came in contact with, at least in his early days, were NOT monsters. Quite the opposite, he seems to have been pampered and certainly well taken care of, in his early days, to be so fascinated and trusting of humans as to be emotionally dependent on them.

However, he is very aggressive with other horses, unusually so, more than the other OTTBs at our ex barn, who usually got along well with other horses. Our guy was NOT socialized, and seems to not know how to get along with other horses.

The other OTTBs I've known were also NOT vicious killers, got along well with other horses, and had varying degrees of human cooperation. Some were not so human oriented, others were quite agreeable and friendly.

So.....judging by the limited number of OTTBs I've known, and the one I now own, MOST of them do not act like horses that were mistreated by humans. Not all, but most.

Does that mean that trainers/breeders in general are good people? I don't know. But I expected that mistreated horses would not be so agreeable and trainable, and in OUR case with our guy...SO strangely and abnormally emotionally and physically dependent on humans.

So, perhaps Witherbee is right, there are SOME good trainers/breeders out there..... so we shouldn't assume all are evil. I also think that there are indeed some evil trainers/breeders out there, and the horses that come out of those situations are likely those few that are dangerous and emotionally and/physically damaged.

BUt like anything in life, it is not all one thing or another.

Our boy obviously had a pampered life and TOO much human contact....but at least it was positive. He acts more like a dog than a horse.....He seeks out human companionship over equine companionship... he respects, and is fascinated by humans.... So whatever his past associations were with our species, it was most definately positive.

And so, we ended up with a horse-dog.:)


BTW, the PETA people are not freaks. They are exuberant/passionate about their cause, which does not make them freaky, just committed. Even if it is not YOUR cause...we should ALL respect such devotion and passion. To call someone a freak just because they do not conform to YOUR standards shows a lack of character on the part of the person spewing out adjectives. JMO

LauraKY
Aug. 13, 2011, 10:49 AM
Very few companies have company pensions...everything has gone to 401(k). If you want to keep up with inflation, you have to invest in stocks and bonds, not a guaranteed rate fund. Real estate used to be a good investment, now houses are underwater. No simple answers, but to blame people who thought they were investing wisely (and were until the 2008 crash) is just plain ignorant in my book. So there.

HR related, there are worse things than death. Much, much worse.

up-at-5
Aug. 13, 2011, 02:48 PM
Very few companies have company pensions...everything has gone to 401(k). If you want to keep up with inflation, you have to invest in stocks and bonds, not a guaranteed rate fund. Real estate used to be a good investment, now houses are underwater. No simple answers, but to blame people who thought they were investing wisely (and were until the 2008 crash) is just plain ignorant in my book. So there.

HR related, there are worse things than death. Much, much worse.

Hey, I wasn't the one who brought up the stock market. And yes, again, accountability is a factor. I lost 25% of my investment portfolio in the past two weeks, thankfully, the rest is in guaranteed investments, with the lower return comes the security of a safe and sound principal. I am accountable for my own investment choices.
Yes, inflation plays a huge part, the goal is to make sure your investment returns keep up with, or exceed, the rate of inflation. Real estate is still a safe investment as long as you do not finance to the hilt. So what if the markets tumble when it comes to home values, as an investment in ones own future,(flippers aside) owning a home still comes with the security of a roof over your head and hopefully no mortgage payment(if you're smart and don't over borrow) once you retire. With smart money management, and aside from health issues or death of the main bread winner, no one needs to be so poor as to have to resort to dumping animals.
Also, the loss right now on investments due to the market crash, is not a "real" loss in terms of "real" dollars. The loss is only on paper. One only realizes that loss if they cash out, as many do in a panic. Leave it be, and the markets will rebound. Saying you are "out" so many $$ in investment funds is only a reality if you cash them. Sit tight and those investments will rebound, they always, always do. Getting close to actual retirement? Time to re balance that portfolio and get into some safer types of investments. It's not rocket science. So no, the " I lost my money in the market so I can't afford to feed my horse" does not fly with me one bit.

Calamber
Aug. 23, 2011, 09:09 AM
?? If you choose to invest in mutual funds or the stock market, you accept the risk that comes with it, period. With the chance of greater returns comes the risk of loss.
If you're talking pension funds managed by portfolio managers, I do believe you get to vote on how your pension is managed.
Not a valid comparison, imho.

Not true that you get to "vote" on how your portfolios are managed. Check into what happened with S & P downgrading municipalities and cities when corporate bonds actually had a higher risk factors and more losses. Unless we get regulation in the banking industry, ie HR 1489, to reinstate the 1933 Glass-Steagall Act, the US and world economy is going to explode and we will have a new Dark Age of chaos. Just look at the overall picture, we are in a depression which no one in the "official" US news media has the balls to pronounce and Nerobama fiddles and lies while Rome burns. More wars anyone?! The loon announces imperially that Syria president should resign?! More fuel to the fire, would that he would take his own suggestion for himself.

Unless the people wake up, we are going to be heading for the slaughter pipeline ourselves, nevermind the horses. Where are the retirement facilities for the humans who take care of the horses? How unbalanced can a discussion get? We have to restart the US economy with great projects a la Franklin Roosevelt. We need big thinkers with big ideas, not monetarist obsessed freaks who just want to protect Wall Street and the banks who gambled with everyone's portfolios and then insist on austerity for everyone else to pay off their bad debts. The US population has to WAKE UP or there will be blood in the streets.

tradewind
Aug. 23, 2011, 11:29 AM
I thought this thread was about horses and the anit-slaughter policies..Alot of us lost alot of money, that is a discussion for off topic day....can we keep this about the horses?

witherbee
Aug. 23, 2011, 12:04 PM
Sorry to have brought it up (the whoile pension discussion) - it was a comparison that went awry. Just to set the record straight - it had nothing to do with MY investing. This was a company provided pension program that was discontinued completely. I was able to take what I had in there out, but would not get the projected retirement funds that were part of my employment. Of course I do have a 401K etc - this was a pension plan. And it has happened to many employees working for large corporations, but most of us were counting on that pension...

Back to the horses - I do think we in the industry need to step up to the plate as much as possible, but we face a lot of the issues that other disciplines do as far as cost of euthanization, training issues, health issues and a generally crappy economy. Living here in FL, we see so many starving horses, and so many of them are your average "backyard" horses.

Carry on, and I'll stop whining about my pension - could be worse, at least I am working! Hubby on the other hand has been laif off for 2 months...

englishcowgirl
Aug. 23, 2011, 12:08 PM
There's also a little thing called ethics. Doing the right thing can be a useful business tactic as well.

Exactly. I know a trainer who breeds good stock that do well on the track. These horses have a waiting list of dressage, hunter/jumper and field hunting trainers lined up to get one. When they race break them they also put the cash up to saddle break them for general riding as well. They make money if the horses win, or if they don't and they sell them to a home. They say they have never ever sold to a killer (in over 20 years) and have bought a few and easily placed them in homes from that type of dealer. There stallion is magnificient and the mares all look like they could be show horses. Beautiful, sweet well socilized babies. I am drooling over the chance to have one but it will be a few years. Bottom line: stop breeding junk and stop being lazy.

EmilyAlyse
Sep. 1, 2011, 04:08 PM
1. Horses are not livestock raised for food. They are domesticated animals who now serve as a companion role for humans... be that for entertainment or otherwise. They are constantly fed from life until death products that are labeled directly as "not to be fed to animals intended for human consumption". With the poor oversight of the USDA and FDA... a warning that they actually DO have in place really does carry some merit. To knowingly sell meat that is tainted in this way (99% of the horses being shipped to any slaughter plant from the US) is both unethical and dangerous.

2. If you are willing to bring a horse into the world (as in, a breeder of any kind), you must be fully willing to take the responsibility that entails... including the end-of-life planning for that animal. It is only responsible.

3. Equine slaughter uses the machinery and steps that were developed for the slaughter of cattle. VERY different animals. While cattle are much more docile, shorter, and more stout than horses in general, they are more able to withstand the changes, smells, sights, and sounds of a processing facility without undue stress or injury prior to their slaughter. That said, their "miss rate" is still "acceptable" at 3 animals per hour (that is, a "miss" by the "stunner", wherein the animal is either re-stunned if still in the box, or is "stuck" while still conscious hanging from the line). IMO, ZERO is the only acceptable "miss rate" in any slaughter system. Add a system designed for cattle with the more uppity, flighty, and fragile horse... and you have a gruesome, painful, and highly stressful end for many many more horses than should be allowable at all.

4. The problem really does stem from over-breeding, and indiscriminate breeding. Both of which are rampant problems in the TB market, as well as in other equine fields. Just because your mare or stud colt won a race or five does not make them suitable for breeding. At all. NO stallion should be bred 135 times per year (or more, if he is traveling hemispheres for a double season). Conformational faults are rampant in certain bloodlines, and need to be countered by QUITTING BREEDING CRAPPY HORSES.

I am very much anti-slaughter. I am very much anti-backyard-or-just-plain-asinine-breeding.

If you have the money to purchase/own/maintain a horse, you'd best well have the money to either pay a vet bill or have the horse euthanized if that is what needs to be done. Otherwise, you're a sh*tty owner and human. Period.

I've owned horses my whole life. And they are "lifers" at my farm. I re-train OTTBs for other disciplines, and all come to sale with a "buy back" clause ensuring that if anything comes to be, they can always retire with me. It is my responsibility to provide a home to any animal that I take on... for the entirety of their lives. For what they give back to me, I owe them at least that much. I've worked in many capacities at the racetrack, for both small-time and nationally-known trainers, with both bottom rung claimers and Multiple G1 winners. The fact remains the same for all of them: unless you are willing to give them the life and death they deserve, you have no business owning them.

jenm
Sep. 1, 2011, 05:02 PM
The fact remains the same for all of them: unless you are willing to give them the life and death they deserve, you have no business owning them.

I bet a lot of people will disagree with you, but I for one, think you are 100% correct with your statement.

witherbee
Sep. 2, 2011, 11:28 AM
2. If you are willing to bring a horse into the world (as in, a breeder of any kind), you must be fully willing to take the responsibility that entails... including the end-of-life planning for that animal. It is only responsible.

4. The problem really does stem from over-breeding, and indiscriminate breeding. Both of which are rampant problems in the TB market, as well as in other equine fields. Just because your mare or stud colt won a race or five does not make them suitable for breeding. At all. NO stallion should be bred 135 times per year (or more, if he is traveling hemispheres for a double season). Conformational faults are rampant in certain bloodlines, and need to be countered by QUITTING BREEDING CRAPPY HORSES.

I am very much anti-slaughter. I am very much anti-backyard-or-just-plain-asinine-breeding.

If you have the money to purchase/own/maintain a horse, you'd best well have the money to either pay a vet bill or have the horse euthanized if that is what needs to be done. Otherwise, you're a sh*tty owner and human. Period.

I've owned horses my whole life. And they are "lifers" at my farm. I re-train OTTBs for other disciplines, and all come to sale with a "buy back" clause ensuring that if anything comes to be, they can always retire with me. It is my responsibility to provide a home to any animal that I take on... for the entirety of their lives. For what they give back to me, I owe them at least that much. I've worked in many capacities at the racetrack, for both small-time and nationally-known trainers, with both bottom rung claimers and Multiple G1 winners. The fact remains the same for all of them: unless you are willing to give them the life and death they deserve, you have no business owning them.

I agree in theory, but it is a slippery slope deciding what is "crappy breeding" and what is not. Most people think *their* mare or stallion is wonderful. Also, I don't think every person that ever owns a horse needs to have it for life. I think eeach individual OWNER should be responsible for the care and responsible to find the next good home for the horse. Even though we too have a buy-back policy and I do my best to follow the few we have out there, fate sometimes takes a hand and you lose touch. I follow those we have bred and those we have previously owned and even those of the owners who board or train with us. I do that because I care, but I honestly believe that the current owner is always responsible to try their best to make sure the horse is in a good home.

That said, I think the spotlight on this is good, but I think it needs to be done in as positive a way as possible (like CANTER, rerun, the Jockey Club etc do) - acrimony only alienates those in a position to change/help... There are a lot of us fighting the good fight behind the scenes as well (including many on this thread - sounds like you are one of them EmilyAlyse).

2ndyrgal
Sep. 9, 2011, 01:06 PM
It is my fervent hope that you never have a life changing situation that makes everything you think every horse/pet owner should do, completely and utterly impossible.

I recently got a phone call regarding a client of mine who happens to have a rented small farm and several horses. She and her husband were in a car wreck. He died, with no life insurance and she is likely to be wheelchair bound for the rest of her life. Add a small, seriously injured child to this. He was the breadwinner and had insurance, but, as with most young couples, not nearly enough to cover all the bills and leave her with anything. She will not be able to take care of her child, let alone teach any lessons. His paycheck covered most of the bills, hers barely covered most of the horse expenses.

They have no family and are not trust fund babies.

Now E-A, you have a barn full of old, common W/T horses that you can now, no longer afford to feed. You do not have any where to bury them, nor do you have any cash left after the funeral to euth them. You'll try giving them away, but they are all in their late teens, with soundness issues that makes them unsuitable for very much.

What are you going to do now, from on top of that very high horse you're on???

Barnfairy
Sep. 9, 2011, 07:36 PM
2ndyrgal, I feel for your client. I really do. No judgement there.

But that situation is exactly why I have discussed with family and a couple close friends my plan for my animals in the event of worst case scenario.

If I lose my health and my ability to keep working to keep my horses, I would not also want to add to that hell the thought of my horses hanging on hooks in Canada.

smokygirl
Sep. 10, 2011, 02:56 AM
It is my fervent hope that you never have a life changing situation that makes everything you think every horse/pet owner should do, completely and utterly impossible.

I recently got a phone call regarding a client of mine who happens to have a rented small farm and several horses. She and her husband were in a car wreck. He died, with no life insurance and she is likely to be wheelchair bound for the rest of her life. Add a small, seriously injured child to this. He was the breadwinner and had insurance, but, as with most young couples, not nearly enough to cover all the bills and leave her with anything. She will not be able to take care of her child, let alone teach any lessons. His paycheck covered most of the bills, hers barely covered most of the horse expenses.

They have no family and are not trust fund babies.

Now E-A, you have a barn full of old, common W/T horses that you can now, no longer afford to feed. You do not have any where to bury them, nor do you have any cash left after the funeral to euth them. You'll try giving them away, but they are all in their late teens, with soundness issues that makes them unsuitable for very much.

What are you going to do now, from on top of that very high horse you're on???

I'm sorry to hear that. I hope her and her child recover ((HUGS)).

EmilyAlyse
Sep. 10, 2011, 11:06 AM
It is my fervent hope that you never have a life changing situation that makes everything you think every horse/pet owner should do, completely and utterly impossible.

I recently got a phone call regarding a client of mine who happens to have a rented small farm and several horses. She and her husband were in a car wreck. He died, with no life insurance and she is likely to be wheelchair bound for the rest of her life. Add a small, seriously injured child to this. He was the breadwinner and had insurance, but, as with most young couples, not nearly enough to cover all the bills and leave her with anything. She will not be able to take care of her child, let alone teach any lessons. His paycheck covered most of the bills, hers barely covered most of the horse expenses.

They have no family and are not trust fund babies.

Now E-A, you have a barn full of old, common W/T horses that you can now, no longer afford to feed. You do not have any where to bury them, nor do you have any cash left after the funeral to euth them. You'll try giving them away, but they are all in their late teens, with soundness issues that makes them unsuitable for very much.

What are you going to do now, from on top of that very high horse you're on???

I really do feel for her situation, and extend to her my deepest condolences for the loss of her husband. And I do not mean to imply that she is somehow in the wrong for what has happened to her. I really do feel for her, and if she is in my area, I would be more than willing to help her with homing the horses she can no longer sustain.

That said, I do feel that a lot of this comes down to personal responsibility. Life insurance in this day and age is something that is immensely important for people to have... particularly when there is a child involved. With the low rates available for a large amount of coverage, parents have the duty to their child to prepare for the worst situation possible... that being the demise of one or both parents. An extra $15-$20 per month alone can purchase in many cases up to or more than $100,000 in death benefits.

I'm sorry that you think I'm sitting on a "high horse" here... but my stance is simply that, like life with children, one should be responsible in their decision making to care for and live with another being. Be that an emergency savings fund, insurance policies on horse and human, or planned retirement (horse and human again)... it is the responsibility of owners to hope for the best and plan for the worst.

I'm not judging your friend or others that have been forced into her situation. Many people DO have plans in place for an emergency or tragic situation that are exhausted at some point. And that is where individuals and the industry as a whole needs to come together to help aid horse and human who HAVE reached their breaking points.

I'm very sorry if you took my posting the wrong way. And I do feel for your friend and her loss.

Rbow
Sep. 10, 2011, 11:45 AM
I really do feel for her situation, and extend to her my deepest condolences for the loss of her husband. And I do not mean to imply that she is somehow in the wrong for what has happened to her. I really do feel for her, and if she were in my area, I would be more than willing to help her with homing the horses she can no longer sustain.

That said, I do feel that a lot of this comes down to personal responsibility. Life insurance in this day and age is something that is immensely important for people to have... particularly when there is a child involved. With the low rates available for a large amount of coverage, parents have the duty to their child to prepare for the worst situation possible... that being the demise of one or both parents. An extra $15-$20 per month alone can purchase in many cases up to or more than $100,000 in death benefits.

I'm sorry that you think I'm sitting on a "high horse" here... but my stance is simply that, like life with children, one should be responsible in their decision making to care for and live with another being. Be that an emergency savings fund, insurance policies on horse and human, or planned retirement (horse and human again)... it is the responsibility of owners to hope for the best and plan for the worst.

I'm not judging your friend or others that have been forced into her situation. Many people DO have plans in place for an emergency or tragic situation that are exhausted at some point. And that is where individuals and the industry as a whole needs to come together to help aid horse and human who HAVE reached their breaking points.

I'm very sorry if you took my posting the wrong way. And I do feel for your friend and her loss.



Yes, this is a great post in my opinion.

So sorry for your client. I too would offer support. They did MOST things right and I'm sorry for their situation.

I didn't consider everything when I was younger either. Getting older/wiser, I have horses i reasonably believe I can outlive, and also have life insurance policies on myself for each. Crazy, yes...but they're not going to find themselves in a slaughter situation for lack of my prior planning.

OutRider_6
Sep. 12, 2011, 10:27 PM
Can you post a link to the anti-slaughter policy.
I'm very interested just how they've worded it.

darc'

jetsmom
Sep. 13, 2011, 02:25 AM
It is my fervent hope that you never have a life changing situation that makes everything you think every horse/pet owner should do, completely and utterly impossible.

I recently got a phone call regarding a client of mine who happens to have a rented small farm and several horses. She and her husband were in a car wreck. He died, with no life insurance and she is likely to be wheelchair bound for the rest of her life. Add a small, seriously injured child to this. He was the breadwinner and had insurance, but, as with most young couples, not nearly enough to cover all the bills and leave her with anything. She will not be able to take care of her child, let alone teach any lessons. His paycheck covered most of the bills, hers barely covered most of the horse expenses.

They have no family and are not trust fund babies.

Now E-A, you have a barn full of old, common W/T horses that you can now, no longer afford to feed. You do not have any where to bury them, nor do you have any cash left after the funeral to euth them. You'll try giving them away, but they are all in their late teens, with soundness issues that makes them unsuitable for very much.

What are you going to do now, from on top of that very high horse you're on???

That's a very sad situation and an uncommon one fortunately. However most people selling to Killer Buyers, auctions, etc, and especially most racehorse owners that sell to slaughter, are not in that kind of dire situation. They just look at it as an easy way to make a little extra money, rather than spending another minute trying to find them a home. They're greedy and lazy.

EmilyAlyse
Sep. 14, 2011, 10:59 AM
It is my fervent ................................ horse you're on???

I wanted to share this link with you... KY Equine Humane Center - Surrenders (http://www.kyehc.org/Surrender_a_Horse.html).

KEHC does take in surrenders from the very situation you are describing. If unable to re-home these horses in a traditional method, this would be far better for them than the meat truck (as that is what this thread is commenting on). KEHC works to rehab and rehome all horses they can. Those not placeable are euthanized humanely on-site.

jenm
Sep. 15, 2011, 06:36 PM
Can you post a link to the anti-slaughter policy.
I'm very interested just how they've worded it.

darc'

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/national-news/2008/november/03/mountaineer-enacts-anti-slaughter-policy.aspx

Excerpt:

With this step, Mountaineer joined other tracks trying to end the practice horsemen of selling horses to killer buyers—those who purchase horses for the sole purpose of sending them to a slaughterhouse.