Frustration Inc.: Devon discussions about starting young horses.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Well, I just got back. Thrilled with the Duc-meister's performance (9th in the open and 6th in the Cosequin Colt Championship.) In fact, I've got goosebumps I'm so thrilled!

ANYWAY.

Yet again there was a TON of discussion, with so many many people, about starting young horses. And the huge problem that it is here in the US ... and how it's becoming bigger. I spent a LOT of time with a German handler, who was a fine representative of his country and the German Equestrian community. What a gentleman! And what a fine horseman! From what I could gather, their system starts with what he called "clubs". I'm guessing think pony clubs for adults. Or maybe (and GD you might be able to chime in here) the PHA-local-kinda-thing. Oh, and the other extraordinarily interesting comment he made was that 50% of making a top horse is training. Yeah, I know everyone will probably say, "Duh" but it's not something I was aware of ... such a large percent. I always assumed that the majority had to be the talent of the horse.

I am really loathe to bring this subject up yet again ... but it really was quite the topic with a lot of people. And of course, it doesn't really affect those with cash to burn, it affects the small breeder. The large barns—and we all know who they are—don't have this problem. They, I believe, are really making some headway: slow but steady. But they have the $$$s to do so. Or maybe I should say $$$$$s to do so.

Having said that, the average breeder, on a world wide basis, has only TWO mares (thank you Cheryl Frank for that statistic.) We've discussed this problem and solutions (???) around and around and around. And I'm not sure we—as a BB group—can come up with anything to actually *DO*. But boy, am I sure thinking A LOT about this subject.

Anyone else have any thoughts or ideas? BTW, we sure as heck are breeding some NICE NICE NICE horses.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Well, I just got back. Thrilled with the Duc-meister's performance (9th in the open and 6th in the Cosequin Colt Championship.) In fact, I've got goosebumps I'm so thrilled!

ANYWAY.

Yet again there was a TON of discussion, with so many many people, about starting young horses. And the huge problem that it is here in the US ... and how it's becoming bigger. I spent a LOT of time with a German handler, who was a fine representative of his country and the German Equestrian community. What a gentleman! And what a fine horseman! From what I could gather, their system starts with what he called "clubs". I'm guessing think pony clubs for adults. Or maybe (and GD you might be able to chime in here) the PHA-local-kinda-thing. Oh, and the other extraordinarily interesting comment he made was that 50% of making a top horse is training. Yeah, I know everyone will probably say, "Duh" but it's not something I was aware of ... such a large percent. I always assumed that the majority had to be the talent of the horse.

I am really loathe to bring this subject up yet again ... but it really was quite the topic with a lot of people. And of course, it doesn't really affect those with cash to burn, it affects the small breeder. The large barns—and we all know who they are—don't have this problem. They, I believe, are really making some headway: slow but steady. But they have the $$$s to do so. Or maybe I should say $$$$$s to do so.

Having said that, the average breeder, on a world wide basis, has only TWO mares (thank you Cheryl Frank for that statistic.) We've discussed this problem and solutions (???) around and around and around. And I'm not sure we—as a BB group—can come up with anything to actually *DO*. But boy, am I sure thinking A LOT about this subject.

Anyone else have any thoughts or ideas? BTW, we sure as heck are breeding some NICE NICE NICE horses.

[Castlegate]

You didn't call!!!!

Don't worry I found out Duc's results on MY OWN!

Congrats!!!!!! That is FANTASTIC!

As for your issue....I have nothing of value to add only that I also think this is a HUGE issue that deserves lots of discussion....

[Sonesta]

The ISR is trying to address the problems by setting up some young horse training sites around the country. They will bring in young bereiters from Germany for three months to work with they youngsters to get them going well. There is one set up in Louisiana, but I'm not sure where. I'll get more info about it and let you know. It sounds like the 100 day stallion testing program only for OTHER than stallions.

[PiedPiper]

This may be completely off topic but I know that Hilltop is now reccomending that people start their young horses with eventers. Said that they give the best, most well-rounded education and teach them to go forward from day one. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And for a plug, they are highly reccomending Clark Montgomery in VA to send young horses to.
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[f4leggin]

Just 2 comments - first the obvious - training is 100% of how the horse ends up/performs - it's quite simple, w/o training, the horse is in a field eating grass his/her whole life - no one will know how good the horse is. What this translates to is if you can't afford to have a super horse trained and rider by someone who is going to teach the horse to be a super star, the horse will never be acknowledged as one. Second, my personal solution to get young stock trained is hook up with a trainer working on one of the coasts with lots of clients, offer them horses at a substantial discount, or partner up with them on the horses. They take the horse and start it, ride it, show it, and when it sells, we both get a piece of the pie. I don't get the 50K price that the horse sells for, but I get the horse sold into a market that helps my reputation as a breeder, and I get the horses sold w/o a huge training investment. I am a small breeder, I only have one foal coming next year. Jill

[Karosel]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sonesta:
The ISR is trying to address the problems by setting up some young horse training sites around the country. They will bring in young bereiters from Germany for three months to work with they youngsters to get them going well. There is one set up in Louisiana, but I'm not sure where. I'll get more info about it and let you know. It sounds like the 100 day stallion testing program only for OTHER than stallions. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Has the ISR considered getting trainers from Germany to train riders? I know its not really their responsibilty nor their goal to produce good trainers; producing good horses is their goal. However, having bereiters come over from Germany seems like a band-aid solution. What we really need in North America is a program to train riders to become good horse trainers. Once we have good trainers we will have people to train our youngsters.

[inca]

Correct me if I'm wrong, Sonesta, but I THINK Ekkehard DID mention that part of the ISR program was to have a US person assist in the process so that they could learn and eventually take over.

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by f4leggin:
Second, my personal solution to get young stock trained is hook up with a trainer working on one of the coasts with lots of clients, offer them horses at a substantial discount, or partner up with them on the horses. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What are you? A mind reader? This is the best solution, in my opinion. But boy, it is soooo full of pitfalls... so many opportunities for one side to take advantage of the other.

As far as the Hilltop issue goes, heck we don't need to train more RIDERS. For what? So they can go off and do their own career?

We've GOT the riders. We've got to find a way to get the young horses to them ... to interest them. AND, most importantly, to do so without investing a ton of cash, that the breeders **don't have!**

I wasn't kidding when I said, "Frustration Inc." in the title. This is soooo frustrating.

Can you imagine a breeder looking a raw talent in the back yard, with no way to get it trained?

[MandyVA]

Is the problem perhaps that the potential purchasers of your young horses have unrealistic expectations or don't want to put their own time/money into training? Maybe I am not understanding what the problem is, but I think there are good trainers for babies out there, you just have to find them. I think people with young horses also tend to forget that they can and should consider alternative ways to get their young horse going instead of assuming "I have to send him away to a pro."

I have a 3yo hanoverian, and don't know many trainers in my area. I asked around, got a name of an up and coming young trainer, and asked her if she would be willing to come to my barn and help me start my baby. She agreed and essentially gave me and the horse a weekly or twice-weekly "lesson" that initially included backing him, then progressively more riding. I had already taught him to lunge and wear tack.

I got him going quite well for probably less than $500. Yes it's a little unusual, but if you have the time, are experienced, and are willing to make a few phone calls, I think you can find a good trainer affordably. And this particular trainer had spent a good deal of time in Germany which is where she learned to start babies. Her methods were excellent and my horse was never so much as kicked or pulled on and now can w-t-c and hack out.

I think the answer is a willingness to depart from the idea that gets hammered into a young horse owner's head that "this is the only way it gets done." As in by sending the horse away to come back to you perfectly trained, or expecting the breeder to have also trained it. Also it helps to develop your network so you can get a referral to a good trainer. I think you folks may be more concerned with the next levels of training so that the horse is ready to show at the big shows. But again I think that I as owner have to take responsibility for getting my own horse to that point, with the assistance of a good trainer who will come give me lessons. Shipping them off to have someone else do it isn't my solution.

But then again I'm probably not the average buyer you all are having to market to, who probably wants the horse already well trained. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[CindyGen]

Well I'm in the northwest area of Indiana, I have a secret, a little small town trainer that I hold near and dear to my heart to start my youngsters for under $500 a month INCLUDING board. Her barn is really old and probably most people would run the other way, but the horses receive excellent care and she's a kind gentle trainer that gets them started properly undersaddle. I think she's a treasure, but she's not a dressage rider or jumper rider, but she gets them going quietly and consistantly enough for buyers to get on and try them out.

[showjumpers66]

We have a young horse program in our area, but the problem is that sending the young horses into training in the US is so much more expensive than it is in Germany. If small breeders have to add $12,000 in training to what we already have in our youngsters, small breeders will never be able to consistently get young horses started correctly.

[Mav226]

Maybe people could post the names of trainers whose work they feel most closely adheres to what we are trying to attain. In doing this, it could be possible for trainers to gain clients and for clients to properly train their horses (preferably without going bankrupt).

So who do you feel offers the best program for young horses from a small breeder? Would there be a way to offer incentives to trainers taking multiple horses? For example, if trainer x is generally slow through certain months, do you feel it would be possible for people from this BB to join together and send horses to that person? This would ensure that the trainer had clients at a time they typically might not. It also might significantly reduce the cost if the trainer could count on a certain income for the time the horses are there. Sort of like vacationing during the off season with a group discount? What do you all think of that?

I agree--the problem is the substantial cost. This makes small breeding opperations very difficult to run.

[pwynnnorman]

I think it is happening. I'm seeing more and more places advertising their services for breaking and training. Quite a few in No. Va. and I've seen the ad for the Louisianna facility, too. One thing I'm noticing about the promotions is that they are hitting the right buttons in their copy. It seems to me that "someone is listening." The word has gotten out that there's this demand and now suppliers are rushing in to fill the void.

Of course, the question remains as to whether these new facilities and newly positioned professionals will offer services that are both reasonable and effective. What I'll be looking for is 1.) modernism--specifically, I'd want to see a website, clear contact information, history and credentials, AND RATES right out there for all to see and access easily; 2.) concern for safety; 3.) conventional practices that are market driven (no roundpenning, horse whispering, wholistic approaches or other faddish stuff that can't be sold to competition-oriented clientele)...and what else?

Anyway, I do think many rider/trainers are indeed starting to reposition themselves. I hope those who use the new services being promoted will keep others posted on who does a good job.

[talloaks]

Sonesta posted:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The ISR is trying to address the problems by setting up some young horse training sites around the country. They will bring in young bereiters from Germany for three months to work with they youngsters to get them going well. There is one set up in Louisiana, but I'm not sure where. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I had heard that it would be at Judi Gerhardt's place. If I remember correctly it's called Blue Moon Farm in Louisiana, somewhere.

[Leena]

I train and show my own; nobody never help me in anything. The only thing for me is I have work for big rider in eastern Canada so some of them remember.

For next year, I have found a trainer that has a couple of junior rider with no horse. What I want to offer is this: I let you the horse for a season, I show senior, the young show junior and I am on the ground making my promotion.

Now I have to make sure my mare will get good points !

[graystonefarm]

I found a wonderful trainer in Indiana who is teaching me to train young horses on the longlines. She trains all of her horses everything on the ground in longlines before she tries it on their back. She said she can teach a horse all the way through Grand Prix on long lines! I think this might be a good option for breeders who don't ride, and even those who do. I'm going to try and schedule a clinic with her on how to start a young horse on longlines. It will be in NW Ohio, or SE Michigan. Let me know you or anyone you know would be interested in attending. I've been riding for over 20 years and I am so sold on this theory of teaching. The horses work so happily and willingly and are so relaxed. This training helps them to develop without having to compensate for the rider's weight. I started a young mare this way this summer and she was so very easy when I finally got on her back. She already knew how to stop and turn. Our only problem was moving forward and I had to reinforce my leg aids with the dressage whip. Of course she already knew what the dressage whip was for from our ground work. Her "breaking" was such a pleasant experience not only for me, but for her as well. I've had no resistence from her whatsoever and she already knew what contact was b/c of the longlines which cannot be with side reins. We'll be starting my 2 year old with the long lines soon. Perhaps we'll use her for the clinic. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Gold Dust]

Why does everyone here seem to feel Americans need to learn how to break and start young horses here? Many can, many do. It just takes money it's that simple. You can get someone to break your horse if you do not have the staff to do it. Then, you take it to a trainer to start. No matter what anyone thinks, most BNTs got that title through years of experience and in time, do not want to do the breaking.

Partnerships are not the cure all by far. If your baby is not sold by befor its first show, here comes show expenses. Ching cha ching. If said baby is still not sold years down the line, are all prepared for this? Partnerships are still a disaster waiting to happen if the current owner does not have enough funds to bring it along. Your trainer may train and show it for a piece of the pie at the end, but sure won't pay entries. It's that simple. They have already given you a huge chunk of money by providing services.

Breeders need to understand that this may be a future expense and people buying need to also understand this. It's just that simple. If your lucky, and step in a deal that keeps costs down, excellent, but those are few and far between.

I just don't seem to think this can be done without the money to back this investment first. I don't mean to sound blunt or anything but how can anything be done without some sort of money to start out with. The more you can do as a breeder and owner befor you need to consult a trainer,GREAT! But, if you cann't break or start how else can this get done?

[Tannenwald Trakehner]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
3.) conventional practices that are market driven (no roundpenning, horse whispering, wholistic approaches or other faddish stuff that can't be sold to competition-oriented clientele)... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow. Interesting post and I agree with many of your points, but do you REALLY think competition-oriented clientele are opposed to natural horsemanship methods? All of our horses are worked with NH principles and the ones who stay long enough do ground work in the roundpen. It is just a way of communicating with the horse. Even the farrier employs NH methods and both he and the horses benefit-- the horses are relaxed, and he sweats less and suffers less stress under his client's horses than any other farrier I have ever seen. I have never had ANYONE, clients both potential and realized, indicate that they thought our methods were invalid. So this statement really came as a surprise.

[mairzeadoats]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:
[QUOTE]

As far as the Hilltop issue goes, heck we don't need to train more RIDERS. For what? So they can go off and do their own career?

We've GOT the riders. We've got to find a way to get the young horses to them ... to interest them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Omom, there is a huge difference between a TRAINER and a RIDER.

[Timex]

beleive it or not, there are a lot of people out there that can will, and do start babies. i actually PREFER to start babies, rather then work with a more experienced animal. i find it more rewarding. doesn't pay very well, but what the heck. i've actually recently partnered up with a local morgan breeder. i work with her young stock, and we're going to start showing them next spring. i ride for free, she advertises my services, pays the showing expenses, and anything sold i get a % of. and i have fun, riding sweet, well behaved and well mannered babies. do i do this full time? nope, not any more. do i do a lot of advertising? nope. but i'll bet there are a lot more like me out there then you're aware of.

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:
From what I could gather, their system starts with what he called "clubs". I'm guessing think pony clubs for adults. Or maybe (and GD you might be able to chime in here) the PHA-local-kinda-thing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey GD ... any thoughts on this kind of approach/organisation? Of course, I'm not really sure what kind of approach this is! I think—and someone who knows the German system better correct me if I'm wrong—it's a question of shared resources within the 'club'.

Of course, the geography and the numbers skyrocket ... 8,000 foals per annum ... heck the club that he is president of has over 900 members.

And again, not to sidetrack anything ... but the system over there is so different. He is always surprised at the lack of spectators at the breed shows. And of course, the costs involved to him—regardless of the exchange rate—are astonomical. Oh, and BTW, I was kind of shocked to learn that American OWNED horses are being trained over there rather than here! Again, I guess it just comes down to the $$$$s.

Which turns this into what none of us want it to be: an exclusive, money-driven sport.

You know, at the end of the day, I just can't figure this stuff out. I feel like if we could just get everyone together in a a big room we could hash it all out.

*sigh*

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Timex:
i've actually recently partnered up with a local morgan breeder. i work with her young stock, and we're going to start showing them next spring. i ride for free, she advertises my services, pays the showing expenses, and anything sold i get a % of. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exchanging value for value ... something that is of value to you for something that is of value to the person you're partnering with.

That, I really believe, is a good thing. BUT. The key is VALUE. Both sides have to value what is being exchanged.

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mairzeadoats:

Omom, there is a huge difference between a TRAINER and a RIDER. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What a good point. Unfortunately, apparently it is not the case in Germany with the bereiters (how IS that spelled anyway????). Again, someone correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding they do both.

Here, you may have a point. I think it depends upon the individual. What's that old saying? The horse you get on is not the same as the one you get off? Something like that anyway.

Back to work. Ugh.

[Jleegriffith]

Pwynnnorman..see that is the problem. You aren't going to find a lot of good trainers looking on the web. A lot of people still don't even know how to do email let alone have a website.
I think another problem is the majority of people who are qualified enough to break and start these babies don't want to do it b/c they are getting older and break easier. The money isn't worth getting hurt.
It is hard to get a business started. For example, I am 23 yrs old. A B ponyclubber who has ridden since the age of 2 and started many greenies. Shown in all disiplines. Not afraid of behavioral issues but don't want to get killed. Patient and kind. Taken over 40 ottb's and turned them into show horses. I consider myself to be a good rider very effective but not necesarily a eq rider. I don't have a ton of money but show locally and take lessons with a super grand prix level trainer. I have started close to 20 horses now with the assitance of my mom as a group person. We start them slowly but correct. Take them out on the trails and to the show grounds. Don't charge a whole lot of money.
But..I have only competed up through third level because I always ride green horses and end up selling them before I take them further. I can't yet afford a permenant partner who is talented enough to go higher. I feel as though people don't want to take there horses to someone unless they are well known in the show world and have super fancy horses and a fancy show barn. I generally get clients through word of mouth but I feel as though people might not want to bring there nice babies to someone who has a small 10 acre farm and isn't a top level rider?
I usually just put the basics on the horses and then turn them over to another professional and I feel like there are places in the business for people like me but I am not sure where to advertise. I know a lot of trainers who won't take the horses hacking out or to different places for many reasons. Or the trainers that rush everything and end up putting the wrong basics on them. It is hard to make decisions concering your horses future.
It was hard for me just to find a trainer to work with b/c my tb is very sensitive and many people try to get me to force him into a frame..which of course is not the way to go.

[Hexel]

In my situation the issue is, being able to get them started in a cost effective manner.
Next is finding a trainer that appreciates what I have vested in my babies and will provide then care as if they were their own horse.
I do not mind a bit of roundpening to start. Not excessive, to hard on the joints of young horses. Anyway it is expensive to breed, in all honesty as much as we would like every foal to be perfect it does not always happen. So the exceptional ones need to pay the way for the most part. If to much is invested in getting them started, there is minimal if any profit margin to grow and keep food on the table.
Very few can lose money/just break even, long term, let alone work very hard and see little return for their hard work. Disheartened, and discouraged is the word I get from many small breeders. Yet the trainers work hard as well and need to make a living. Maybe we need a poll of what training board prices might be affordable to small breeders.

[mairzeadoats]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mairzeadoats:

Omom, there is a huge difference between a TRAINER and a RIDER. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What a good point. Unfortunately, apparently it is not the case in Germany with the bereiters (how IS that spelled anyway????). Again, someone correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding they do both.

Here, you may have a point. I think it depends upon the individual. What's that old saying? The horse you get on is not the same as the one you get off? Something like that anyway.

Back to work. Ugh. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, the bereiters in Germany learn to ride AND train. I don't know about the "everyday people" there, though. But the whole bereiter system is geared towards bringing along trainers.

Back here, I think our desire for immediate success (with success defined as winning at shows) led us to a system where we tend to buy horses already trained.

That's why (I forget who now) suggested creating a system where, instead of importing bereiters to train just the horses, have them train potential trainers.

[MsHunter]

I agree Hexel. Take a poll on what people "think" it should cost.

We do training board at $900 or $950 a month
Can't remember it is on my website. $625 of that goes to the farm and $300 to our rider/mth.

I have never had a problem keeping the barn full or anyone complaining about their horse when finished. Some sign up for the 60 day program, some 90 days and others want to continue to the first show u/s or to the first lead change or jump. It all depends on what the customer wants. What they won't get is
their thoughts on how we start/finish their baby. We will tell you what we do, and give progress reports, allow visitations to see, but not input. We are a non lunge, non side rein approach kind of barn. Want the horses for the long term!

[Gold Dust]

OM- The local organizations like the PHA is a group of amateurs and professional that meet once a month and discuss local issues and put horse shows, dinner dances and clinics together. You can meet other trainers through this meeting but if you put on the table a place to bring trainers and owners together on breaking and training horses you might get a confused look. Locally, here, its not that hard. We have many capable trainers right here on this little Island.


Many trainers do not have a web-site because the best advertising IMO is word of mouth. Many trainers would rather you come to them because you have seen them work and like what you see. All you need to do is hang around any show in the discipline you have chosen and watch a number of trainers do 'advertising'.

Partnerships, once they are formed are no longer a hobby. It is a buisness. Who enters any buisness without fully understanding gains and possible loss? Now, you have someone else involved and if it is a trainer, you know they are looking at it buisness style, not like a hobby. So, the 'value' you speak of is one that some times is hard to come to terms with. The best bred horse may not turn out to be a superstar. Do the math after all these expenses. Face it, this is not cheap and there really is no way around it unless you can breed, break and train without any outside help.

[Gold Dust]

See, MSHunter has a great reputation and I knew this long befor I saw her web-site! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Bundy]

Omom- no offense - but you are not 100% correct about bereiters and trainers and the german club system. But in a nutshell- no - bereiters and trainers are not the same thing.

I will try to explain, as best I know and even my knowledge is rudimentary- but it will take a really long post that most of you dont' want to read.
The nickel version that I have gathered from my bereiter and pferdewirschaft friends is (and Kareen or anyone you real german people - correct me if I am wrong!!!!!):
Bereiters - have completed one portion (the basic sort of undergraduate level if you will) of the german horse profession. This means they can be employed normally as professional riders - and normally continue to work under the supervision of a master, - or perhaps they ride for an auction or work at a training stable or breeding barn.

To be a trainer of people, i.e. teach (like at a riding club) - there are more levels of courses, training and certification they must complete along the way. Similar, in a fashion, to the USDF Instructor program. The Germans have "instructor A and B and C" etc levels. To be licensed to instruct amateurs in riding lessons up to L level takes one license. To go beyond that takes another. To instruct professional riders takes a different set of licenses. Make sense?

To be a trainer of bereiters and other higher levels - takes the "masters" license. Then they are "pferdewirtschaft" or "pferdewirtschaftmeister".

These to me are the true trainers. But many of the more highly certified bereiters are extremely good. Especially if they ride and compete on their own.

It is an FN requirement that anyone who wants to ride in a show in Germany - must be a member of a local riding club. Sort of like being made to be a member of a USDF GMO here in the USA.

The riding clubs are like our local boarding stables - run and owned by the members. With instructors on staff. The idea of a commercial boarding stable is not as common there as here - I guess the riding clubs are the exchange. So the average person, who boards a horse and doesn't have their own place, keeps it at the riding club. Normal riders, who maybe do have their own stable, will trailer in to these riding clubs for their lessons. With their membership dues comes so many lessons per month/year. Many of these riding clubs also have lesson horses and ponies available.

Some people, who are hooked up with a BNT who has their own place, will keep their horses at BNT's place. This is more expensive - of course!

One big difference I see is in the amount of money that training and lessons cost here vs there. It is much more affordable there. I keep horses over there - and ones that are in training. I can keep a young horse, full board, full 5-6 days a week training - with a bereiter that actively shows at the FEI level, and still working under the supervision of a German Olympic Gold Medallist -even with today's lousy exchange rate - for less than $700 us dollars a month.

Many many breeders over there are small, like here,- and do it as a side business/hobby. They are on a shoestring too. Most of them try to sell the colts as weanlings to colt raisers - and then get out of the cycle of raising them up and getting them going undersaddle. The mares are either sold as foals, or raised up and sent off for 30 days training, do the mare test - and then are either sold on - or put into their breeding program. There are many many fine mares that never do the mare show or mare test - due to the limited funds of the farmer who has the mare. So there are not as many farmer/hobby breeders there raising up young stock to riding age and then selling them on themselves as we see here. Some do - but in my personal experience - most don't.

Well - hope that helps.

[Home Again Farm]

If I still own one of my babies at the age of three, I send it to my trainer. She generally takes two months to get it going WTC, taking a nice contact, steerable, in front of the leg, happy in its work and able to be ridden by most potential buyers. My costs in traning run about $1600 for that basic start. To me that is quite reasonable and a very wise investment. I have never failed to sell such youngsters very soon after their basic training was done. The training cost actually represents a small percentage of what I have invested in them, and is money well spent.

I would not want to get into a partnership because I like to make my own decisions and because I believe that my training bill is quite reasonable. Granted, a trainer/partner MIGHT benefit from such a partnership. On the other hand, they and I might lose our shirts on one that does not pan out for various reasons. I prefer to take the risks and also to receive the rewards (if the rewards come). http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I have seen the ads for the Louisianna facility and was astounded by their prices. I would never be able to afford to send a horse there -- and doubt that I would want to, even if I could afford it.

When searching for a young horse trainer, word of mouth tends to be successful. They do not need to be -- and rarely are -- household names. They need to have an excellent and deep understanding of the training scale, no nerves, tact, feeling, know when to praise and when to correct, have a great work ethic and real moral ethics as well. They ARE out there.

[MsHunter]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif Thanks Gold Dust
And like most trainers, someone else does my website and it is VERY outdated!!!!

SOmeone said on another thread we probably if we have a website don't update it frequently

How true!

I have some time this week, as we are still drying out from all the rain!

I have new shots to put up of the paddocks
and soon the ring, trying to figure out how to do it though, not very computer savvy!

[Oldenburg Mom]

What an incredible amount of information we are all exchanging! Whew! Trying to digest all of it is tough!

Let's see if I can make head and/or tails of some of these comments:

Hexel:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Disheartened, and discouraged is the word I get from many small breeders. Yet the trainers work hard as well and need to make a living. Maybe we need a poll of what training board prices might be affordable to small breeders. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, what I've found so far is training board usually runs about $1K p/month. Of course, it can go waaaaaay up from there, but that's about the going rate. Less is, I think, great.

mairzeadoats - I guess we've both been educated about bereiters - and more.

mshunter - great site! and yup, you're about right on the money. The problem is, not a lot of breeders can afford the $1K per month. And this is the problem to address. As far as keeping your barn full,... great! I think it is marvellous to see successful people in the horse business. That's what we ALL want.

GD - you make some persuasive points. As far as the PHA goes, I was thinking more along the lines of the club that Melissa goes into such detail about below. Obviously, that's not the direction.

And of course, once partnerships are formed they are no longer a hobby. They are a business. And that business is selling a horse, for as much profit as one can with as little expenditure as possible.

The value that I spoke of is trying to maximize what everyone can contribute to the pot... to achieve just that. Selling. So perhaps for many people partnerships are not the answer. What is? We know the equation—breeders without the means to get some great horses trained. Obviously, we all know that cash would solve the problem. But for a lot of breeders that isn't an option.

Melissa-great post! Again, what an education! I never knew the clubs over there were our equivalent of boarding barns. I know of several places where co-ops have been formed, which appears to be about the same thing.

You know too, it occurs to me that this system didn't devlop overnight. And your comment:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> They are on a shoestring too. Most of them try to sell the colts as weanlings to colt raisers - and then get out of the cycle of raising them up and getting them going undersaddle. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think is very much the position of most small breeders here. The problem arises because the largest market, h/j, are not interested in babies, only finished going horses. GD has made that point very well indeed and she has also made the point that this position is unlikely to change. I certainly agree with that.

So we're right back where we started ... around and around and around we go ... and where we stop nobody knows! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Yet again, a giant *sigh*

Melissa, you got any great ideas?

[Oldenburg Mom]

BTW, did I get this right?

THE GRAND CHAMPION OF DEVON WAS Ocita? Wasn't she bred by a small breeder?

HOLY COW!!!! Way to go people!

[NinaL aka Chrissy]

I'll address the "club atmosphere" in Germany. If any of you are members of the listserv e-mail groups "Equine-L" and/or "Dressage-L" I am sure you know a contributer named Lutz. He is a rocket scientist by vocation, German by nationality, and he and his partner are heavily involved in the horse scene in Germany. You only have to read a few of his posts to realize the vast difference between here and there. Here in the USA we are heavily oriented toward competition and the people who ride for the journey (meaning training and learning) are often passed over in favor for those who ride for the goal (competition). Lutz and his partner board their horses at a farm where there are certified trainers and good facilities (indoor, jumps, etc.) but they do not compete and, unless Lutz is leaving something out of his posts, they do not have the horses with the idea of competing them. So, basically they are getting the same training and amenities that people get here; the difference is that they are not expected or required to ever attend a show.

When you read Lutz's messages there are a lot of descriptions of the social events at the barn in addition to the riding/training sessions. Most of them include the imbibing of various types of alcohol (:-D). All kinds of parties, celebrations, etc. Nothing that I can remember about the next big horse show. Going to the barn is a social event as well as an athletic diversion. Here in the U.S., going to the horse show is the social event.

Both of Lutz's and his partner's horses were purchased from German breeders. The gelding was fairly green; IIRC, the mare was more trained. However, neither were finished "show horses". They are relying on the trainer to help complete the horses' educations.

Do you think that would happen in the typical training facility in the US? I think not. Most of the trainers I know make their living at the horse shows. Many have requirements about the number of shows you must attend in a year in return for the privilege of training with them.

I don't begrudge them that - it is how they make their living, after all - but there are a lot of potential horse owners out there who may be falling through the cracks because they are not interested in competing. These are potential buyers of young horses and, because they are not interested in showing, these buyers do not have to purchase the fanciest mover or jumper. So there you have a market for the youngsters who are not going to make the next champion hunter, jumper or dressage horse. All these people want is one who is started nicely.

I'm not sure if we could recreate this over here. I think it may be well worth looking into. IMO, if the USEF really wanted to address the "grassroots" this is a logical place to start rather than gunning for the local, unrecognized horse shows. Maybe advertising geared to the non-competing horse lover plus some sort of support for people who would like to just run a boarding/training barn without running to shows (actually may be a good fit for breeders - who has time to run to horse shows if you are breeding horses, anyway?).

Just my 10 cents worth.

Nina (this post is way too long for 2 cents)

[PineTreeFarm]

From the point of view of an owner:
Over the years I have only bought young horses.
I usually have only 1-2 horses. Most of the time they were OTTB's. The advantage to buying OTTB's is that they are maybe 1/3 the cost of buying from a breeder and they are already broke to ride. Yes, retraining is needed but as 2 or 3 year olds the OTTB's can go into work right away. Buying a yearling from a breeder means 1-2 years of limited riding and board bills before you get to the point that you know if you have something or not.
It is possible to find a trainer who will support this type of an arrangement. Some years ago I bought an 18 month colt from Goldust's father in law. He bred horses for the show ring. By the time those horses were made up as 4-5 year olds they were out of my price range. However, he had no problem selling you a young horse and supporting you while you did the work yourself ( under his supervision).
I also had an instructor ( not a trainer, there is a diference) who was capable of supporting me from the ground while I did the work.
While I understand that winning at breed shows is an important gauge of a yearling or 2 year old's quality it doesn't do much for me as a buyer unless you can show me that horses from your breeding program have gone on to be a success as a performance horse.
I do understand that a breeder has to put a lot of time and money into producing a saleable young horse and you need to be able to make a profit or you won't be breeding for long, it's just that there are other less expensive alternatives available to the owner who doesn't want to wait a few years or who doesn't want to sink a lot of money into a prospect.
I'm probably not a typical owner but this is just the way it's worked out best for me.

[SportArab]

Hey Oldenburg Mom.. Buddercup and I were looking for you at Devon...

At any rate.. my solution for young horses that I still own by age 3 is that I do all the initial work myself - on the longe, etc. And then I get a Thoroughbred guy I know to get up for the first 10 or so rides... Then I know what the horse is like and generally take over from there.

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SportArab:
Hey Oldenburg Mom.. Buddercup and I were looking for you at Devon... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am BROKEN HEARTED I missed you! I have loved Buddercup—which BTW, is one of the most inventive & creative names I've ever seen—ever since I saw her snap on the OHBS website. Her sire is Budweiser, right?

We probably passed each other a million times and never realised.

*weep*

NEXT YEAR WE BETTER GET OUR G&T PARTY BETTER ORGANIZED.

[Cartier]

Boy, this thread strikes a cord. Searching for the right training situation is time consuming and discouraging. It does seem that there are few options if you want to start a horse from scratch. At one point we looked into the program the Talloaks and others have mentioned. As I recall, it is at Blue Moon Farm (though I could be wrong… there is an ad for it in the Old NA Breeder’s Guide and Hilltop Farm thought highly of the program). It sounded very good, the only downside for us was that it was only for a specific period of time… I think something like 3-5 months… I’ve forgotten now.


We were really looking for a long- term situation with a trainer (2-3 years at the very least) and we wanted to be close enough to monitor our horse[s]. For us it was not appealing to simply own a horse long-distance (and have the horse live with a trainer states away from where we lived).

As Cooldanz turned two we looked at a wide range of possibilities, it was rather discouraging. The trainers we liked were either too full to take on something new or too far away. Most of the good trainers did not want to start a horse from scratch, they wanted something going under saddle. For a time there it was rather discouraging, but then the perfect situation fell into our lap. We now have an excellent trainer who is on site and willing to go as far with Cooldanz as we all agree he is capable of. So we went from stress and apprehension to a sense of relief.

Cooldanz has been backed by our trainer without incident (if you exclude Arthur's single attempt at training, from a few weeks ago, which we are all trying to forget, all of us, even Cooldanz http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif). It is very reassuring to know that Cooldanz is in capable hands and is progressing as he should.

For those still looking for training situations... keep at it, good trainers are out there, you just have to take your time, do your homework and start looking ASAP so that you don't feel pressured to make the wrong choice for you and your horse.

[Karosel]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mairzeadoats:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mairzeadoats:

Omom, there is a huge difference between a TRAINER and a RIDER. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What a good point. Unfortunately, apparently it is not the case in Germany with the bereiters (how IS that spelled anyway????). Again, someone correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding they do both.

Here, you may have a point. I think it depends upon the individual. What's that old saying? The horse you get on is not the same as the one you get off? Something like that anyway.

Back to work. Ugh. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, the bereiters in Germany learn to ride AND train. I don't know about the "everyday people" there, though. But the whole bereiter system is geared towards bringing along trainers.

Back here, I think our desire for immediate success (with success defined as winning at shows) led us to a system where we tend to buy horses already trained.

That's why (I forget who now) suggested creating a system where, instead of importing bereiters to train just the horses, have them train potential trainers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was me.

[Gold Dust]

The more I read this thread [and the one going on in the dressage forum] I still do not see any problem with finding a trainer for young horses. They are out there. This is not the problem. The problem is spending money to do it. That is the real problem here. America is loaded with competant trainers. Yes, true, some want them at least broke. I look forward to the golden years with my husband with not too many limps coming from the pair of us!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I'm not sure how these bereiters work but they sure are not doing this for nothing. Seems like they gear towards a school to get certified to become a trainer. Surely not needed at this time here. Someday, will trainers need to be certified, I can only hope but for now a buisness card that says you're a trainer and voila-you are in buisness in H/J land. This is America guys and I'm sure you will find thousands around the country that can and will break your horse.

I found both Pine Tree and Chrissy's post funny that they came side by side. One talks of people looking to buy young but not show and one talks about OTTBs for the less expensive route. Breeders here today ARE breeding quality. Quality costs money, who spends the money-competition riders. Not someone who is keeping the horse in the back yard to trail ride. Right? So, breeders, my question, is that the market you are trying to capture? If so, here is one problem. Second, owners, can you do it all or have enough money to pay to have it done? If not, another problem.

I can surely go out and buy a car tomorrow, but, I better make sure I have gas money all week and, I better make sure when it needs work I can pay the repair man. If not,it sits in the garage! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[LLDM]

Ah yes, this again! It occurs to me that yes, young horse trainers exist and young horses do get trained. It's just not always pretty and/or cost effective. I have come to the conclusion the it is symptomatic of most of the other problems that underlie the horse world in the US.

We have no system. We have many, many networks, organizations, rules written and unwritten. But no generally recognized or accepted framework, like Germany and many other European countries. No common values, no agreement on basic training and riding principles, nor often, judging criteria.

This is why Germany consistantly beats us in international competition. They have a wonderful tiered comprehensive system. And it works more often than not.

The question I am coming to is this: Do we want a system or not? Do we want to do it our own way, with our own personal contacts, all the time? Or are we willing to ever play together as a team?

I think for us to produce international quality horses consistantly, we have to have a team (ala "it takes a village"). Owners/Trainers/Breeders/Riders, it takes the whole ball of wax.

Or we can just keep importing well bred, well trained horses. And top riders. And really high level trainers.

SCFarm

[poltroon]

I think, too, we are talking about some different things here.

There are a lot of trainers in the US capable of putting WTC on a horse. We don't need Germans for that. There you have more of a money issue. Secondarily, when putting in money for training, breeders need a way to get these youngsters in front of buyers, quickly, before they eat their own purchase price.

What we really don't have in the US is a lot of trainers who are capable of putting a solid dressage foundation on a horse - willing and capable of getting a horse from Training level to 3rd/4th.

[NinaL aka Chrissy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gold Dust:

I found both Pine Tree and Chrissy's post funny that they came side by side. One talks of people looking to buy young but not show and one talks about OTTBs for the less expensive route. Breeders here today ARE breeding quality. Quality costs money, who spends the money-competition riders. Not someone who is keeping the horse in the back yard to trail ride. Right? So, breeders, my question, is that the market you are trying to capture? If so, here is one problem. Second, owners, can you do it all or have enough money to pay to have it done? If not, another problem. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, my name is NinaL (the aka Chrissy was my original user name which I basically retired when my horse, Chrissy, had to be euthanized) so I went back to look for Pine Tree's post to make sure you were referring to me http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

But you really missed the point in my post. I was discussing the basic difference between here and Germany. Actually, your response underlines the difference because your attitude is that if you aren't competing you are out riding the trails on your backyard horse. And that the non-competitive rider will ride any old nag or, gasp, get a cheapie from the track.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Not everyone rides to compete. I know many people who ride for the journey not the destination. IOW, they enjoy improving themselves and their horse. Ribbons, trophies and horse shows are not their motivation. And, believe it or not, these people may actually want and will pay for a quality horse.

I am a case in point. I rode on the hunter circuit for many years. But, as I got older and my career got more demanding, I just was not as interested in competing. But I still ride. Now, I am enjoying the journey on my young warmblood who I purchased because he had top-quality gaits, jumping style and looks. Will I compete him someday? Well, maybe, if the stars align and the servers are stable (geek joke). Could I have done it "cheaper". For sure, but I prefer to ride a horse with quality and I paid for quality.

The point is that the person I was referring to does not compete but not competing does not mean hanging out on the trails or keeping the horse in the backyard. Indeed, I would dare to say that your average non-competitive rider in Germany could ride circles around some of our so-called show riders.

I don't think that the young horses purchased by Lutz were necessarily inexpensive. I do know that one woman from Germany who posts on rec.equestrian is appalled at what we pay for young warmbloods in this country but that is another topic.

Nina

[LLDM]

poltroon - I think you are right. We don't need need the Bereiters, we need the Bereiter program. That is the missing link and the credibility gap between breeders, discipline specialized trainers and buyers of young horses.

A person licensed/certified to start young horses might just provide a minimum level of comfort for both breeders, trainers able to provide a higher level of specialized training and buyers trying to figure out if they have the abilities to handle any given young horse.

If we could agree on the basic skill set a "well started" young horse should have it would be most healpful. A testing proceedure that covered the reasonable progression of training, the basic ground and under saddle skills and conditioning appropriate to a young horse would be a huge asset in this industry.

Just a thought.

SCFarm

[carosello]

I have to agree with LLDM. I also agree with the other who spoke about most trainers arent out there wanting to start young horses. They are there to go to shows and ride horses for people at shows AND to find horses for clients to buy (commissions). I know of not one trainer who specializes in young horses and this is all they do. I also think spending $600-1000 a month on a facility (ie show barn) for a young green horse is crazy. Its the quality of the trainer you need to invest in, the facility needs to be safe and secure and not a fancy showplace. I truely believe that once a trainer starts to climb the ladder and get a bigger clientel there is nothing in it for them to start at the begining, unless they themselves are invested in young horses (whether they breed also or are partners on a horse).
I have been in eventing barns, H/J barns and dressage. I would think an eventing trainer would be a good place to look since so many eventers are of a mind set to "work their way up". In dressage there can be this level of working but usually if there is a young rider or pc program too. The H/J barns I have been in the thought would have never occured to start a young horse. Infact most were just recirclulated from one rider to the next with a trainer find a new one ( from another trainer) when some new blood was needed.

[Silly Mommy]

Believe me, there are trainers are out there who have the mileage, the time, and the desire to put a solid foundation on a youngster. They may not have the $$$ to promote themselves, or lack the contacts to get their name out there. I know of more than one such person who would much rather have a barn full of 3yr old equines than 13yr old pubescent humans. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If I weren't physically able to do what I do, I probably wouldn't breed at all.

I'd rather not be the one to back them myself anymore if they seem squirrely - I don't recover as quickly, but then again, I don't fall off that often - I have an assistant who gets that duty http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif. I back and start ~ 5 a year in addition to my own, and have done so since I was, well, let's say for about 22 years http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif... I also live a little out of the loop, and I can't charge the extremely high rates quoted here - training board here is $500/mo which isn't much more than regular board.

I may be backing off from training youngsters because the money IS in the showing customer. I'm not necessarily motivated by money, but my motivation is in my career, and I have a very special boy that I am starting to promote. Someone mentioned "off season" training - y'all have til the end of January http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif.

All kidding aside, I believe that the ideas expressed here are great - who's going to take the ball and run with it? I don't have the need since I do my own, but y'all seem to be (and have been) sitting here hypothesizing about this for quite some time. Remove your thumbs and do something!

OK, wherever that came from, I don't know, but I'm not going to edit until I see some action.

[MsHunter]

OK back to the $$ part of the discussion (separate from the "type of facility" discussion).

Someone explain to me how it can be done at LESS than $600 a month. PLEASE!!!! I am ALL EARS!

DO you all want a farm that has a commercial farm liability policy including care custody control and mortality? Mine does. My accountant states that I divide the stalls in the barn and outside (18) into the annual cost.
$4000. OK so I am starting out at $200 a month per horse before I have added feed/shavings/hay.
1/2 bale of ANY hay a day at $2.50 a day. $75..
Grain ~$15 a week a horse.. $60 a month. $335.
Shavings now I have gone to sawdust to save money but not a airborne type. $400 a month divided by 14 stalls inside. $25 a month. $360 a month. My help (Mexican to do stalls so I can work with the horses $200 a week). $800/20
$40 a horse. $400. Hmm Electric, water, my time and a profit? I charge $625 now inside
including ALL grooming, show clips, handling
supps etc. I charge $400 a month now for pasture board which includes hay/grain. So, if I added the training onto the pasture board I could do it for $700 instead of $950 but to be honest I KNOW I AM MUCH LESS that most trainers
and that is only a $100-200 TOPS profit if you want to call it that per horse per month.

SO YES WE NEED TO EITHER SELL HORSES, TEACH RIDING AND OR GO TO SHOWS TO MAKE MONEY AND REALLY RUN A BUSINESS!

I operated at a LOSS for 6 years on my books.
You don't even want to know how big. I had to show profit this year. Rates had to rise last year.

ANYONE with a LEGITIMATE LLC or INC please tell me how to do it for LESS money and MAKE money please!

[Gold Dust]

OK-first, Germany does ride circles [from what I am told] in the dressage world but not necessarily in the H/J world.

NinaL-sorry, and I guess I did read that wrong. The point I was trying to make is I thought on the average, if you are not competing most may not need that top quality and would find a less expensive route via the OTTBs. I am not a breeder so I may be wrong on that.

What makes you all think once we formed this 'bareiter' program here, once these people struck out on their own they still are not charging you anything?

Why do I seem to be the resident pain in the #$% here, because how can any trainer, that works with young horses not take this a little personal as to where we are? What do you want us to charge if you come to us? How much do you want to ask from us in a partnership? This does not fall all on us. Breaking and starting babies takes a talent. Should we not be paid for this? The question someone else has asked-what do you all think is fair? I'm thinking some are afraid to answer or knows that answer and it may not be what you want to hear. Tell me now and I will pass the word on to all these trainers you can not find. MSHunter has done the math for you, Silly mommy has written a great post. So, now what? What do you really think will change? OM-remember that talk we had in my ring? Did I not tell you this was going to be hard to change an entire system! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

[yaya]

The program in Louisiana is called StartSmart Academy and it is at Judi Gerhardt's Blue Moon Equestrian Center.

Here's their link:

StartSmart Academy (http://www.startsmartacademy.com/)

[Home Again Farm]

LLDM wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>We don't need need the Bereiters, we need the Bereiter program. That is the missing link and the credibility gap between breeders, discipline specialized trainers and buyers of young horses.

A person licensed/certified to start young horses might just provide a minimum level of comfort for both breeders, trainers able to provide a higher level of specialized training and buyers trying to figure out if they have the abilities to handle any given young horse.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Before anyone jumps on this reply and starts firing away, please understand that it is my own humble opinion.

LLDM,

I agree wholeheartedly with your statement above. I require the sort of thorough knowledge of the basic training scale for dressage (which is merely the basis for <span class="ev_code_RED">ALL</span> training - whether it be higher level dressage or jumping) as a bare minimum from any young horse trainer that I use.

As a former rider and buyer, I have had horses that were started with trainers whose strengths were in hunters and those who were started by those who leaned toward dressage. I learned then that a youngster started properly by a trainer well versed in dressage was what I wanted. It is also what 90% of my buyers want. They want a horse that after very basic training has the inclination to seek the bit, to go forward with light aids and a good impulse from behind, is relaxed, rhythmic, and working through its entire body. That is what my trainer (who received her Bereiter's in Switzerland) produces.

If we had a similar program to the Bereiter's program, those seeking trainers would have some sort of assurance that the trainer they were hiring had some sort of minimum knowledge and experience. Beyond that some will have more talent and feel and tact than others. That is icing on the basic cake. What we have now is a hodge podge, where they buyer of training must beware, since there is nothing to prevent anyone with guts but not necessarily knowledge, experience or ablity to hang up their trainer's shingle.

I also believe that when we talk about trainers we can mean rather different things in this discussion. That can lead to misunderstanding.

I am talking about the young horse trainer that takes a horse from unstarted to nicely enough started that a rider who is not a basic beginner can get on and go. I am not talking about trainers who specialize and tend to do mostly showing for clients. To me that is another step up the ladder, and I prefer to have <span class="ev_code_RED">most</span> of my youngsters sold before we go that direction. If I have one that is an exceptional mare that I am reluctant to sell, I will invest further. But generally, <span class="ev_code_RED">for me</span>, it is best to get them sold when they have the very basics and let their new owners decide how to proceed from there.

And, yes, I believe that that basic training money is money well spent. Good trainers are worth their weight in gold twice over and need to make a living. Unfortunately that will make a horse more expensive, and Gold Dust is right, only certain folks will pay for such horses. It has not been my experience that they always want to compete, but rather that they are looking for very high quality and will pay for it.

Sorry for the book. I got carried away. And please don't misunderstand me — I am just trying to give my own point of view, based on my own experiences. Nothing more. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[MsHunter]

Ok so this last facility is $1200 a month without your add ons.

I would fully expect and demand someone to have x-rayed their horse to see that their knees have closed before expecting it to go into a work program.

I am not sure this is NOT in line with what others like myself have stated in terms of cost.

I always have felt our difference is not having ADD ONS to the bills.

I am sure there are others that can do it as affordably as myself in certain geographical regions.

By the way, the BNTs CAN do this too, the reason they dont' is that they are usually on the road showing. They are happy when we send them a horse that can W/T/C and do a lead change and jump a jump. Then the horse can go on the road and further it's education.

[talloaks]

Home Again Farm posted:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I have seen the ads for the Louisianna facility and was astounded by their prices. I would never be able to afford to send a horse there -- and doubt that I would want to, even if I could afford it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you have a link to this facility or to the ads??? TIA

[LLDM]

A bareiter program is not the be all, end all for everyone. But I do think it would fill a significant gap in the industry. The end goal, in my mind, would be to put a set of criteria around the term "well started".

Well started horses should have solid basics in place and be at a point where the horse can be thouroghly evaluated for its future potential. Is it a hunter, jumper, dressage horse, eventer, etc.? What is its upper potential? Is it an A/O horse? A PSG horse? an advanced horse? More? Less? Is it appropriate for an casual ami, a serious ami, or a pro? With a good start the potential and strengths/weaknesses of the horse begin to emerge with some clarity.

Then we will know how much more to invest in it, who to send it on to, or sell it to.

A bareiter program could serve people like me, who start their own. I would have a "cert" to show buyers, specialty trainers and/or sales agents.

The program would also be useful to "raisers" for the same reasons. And provide a level of comfort to breeders in sending a horse off. It would add a tangable value to the market for the money spent.

The program would help "tweeners", those who are not pros, but are more than amis. Many of these people have full time jobs outside the industry, but love starting or retraining horses. They may only do a couple a year, but are serious enough horseman to want the cert. and the training to go with it.

The program woulod be great for assistant trainers. It would make it easier for Pros to hire them and trsut their skills. They could take nice potential horses for training and let them be stated by the assistants for a little less. Pros could also use such a program for advanced students and those who would like to be BNTs in the future.

Professionals would benefit from getting horses ready to be "finished". It has to be more cost effective that way. It would aid pros shopping for clients looking for prospects.

It sets a level between unbacked and well started, but not ready to show green hunter or first level dressage and novice eventing.

IMHO it is a waste of everyone's time and money to have a good solid year long of ground work and backing to well started happen at a BNT or show facility. There are definitely exceptions to this in the case of spectacular young horses. Those horses should be showing on the line and getting experience in the hands of the big name pros. But this is not true of 95% of nicely bred solid young horses who will go on to be great A/A, 2nd/3rd level, intermediate level horses for amateur riders. This is my target market and where most will end up with the proper training.

This is where the price gap exists the worst. We are broken in the 15K to 50K range.

SCFarm

[talloaks]

Okay, I found the link to Judi Gerhardt's smart start program. Sure would like to hear if anyone attended and the results. Anyone know??? Here's the link: http://www.startsmart-acad.com

[LLDM]

Further clarification:

I think that 2 to 4 days a week for a young horse is plenty. Hacking out weekly is also great for babies. Over a year you get a happier sounder horse.

You don't need a super facility for this, just safe and workman like with great turnouts.

There are upper level pros who are great with youngsters - but they are rare! and IMHO should be for those 5% of horses that are future super stars.

Oh, and insure the horse, not the facilty, if its sole purpose is starting youngsters. You simply don't have all the other liabilty issues of a bigger full service facility.

I do believe trainers need to stay in business and should be paid well for their services. But the sort of "system" we have now is not economically feasible. No matter how you add it up you have to charge more than most of the buying market will pay for a really nice, sound, sane, talented horse who is not going to win at Welington, Devon or Rolex. But this is the majority of our market.

Really good (and honest) sales agents would help. I think a bareiter program would help. We simply must be more effiecient if we are to be able to produce NA bred horses competitive with the average European bred and started horse. Do we have the desire and the will to do so?

SCFarm

[Kareen]

Melissa explained the system in Germany well. I think our amateur trainer degrees are very helpful especially for the clubs who can not always afford to hire a full time pro but run a lot on parttime power and amateur instructors.
I think it is more difficult in the US than here to get going with your riding because everything has to be paid for by the single individual and if you don't know to hook up with a savvy and willing trainer how can you get to your full potential?
The US system with all the individualism seems to be controled more by the pros and if anybody who chose to can call themselves a pro there just is no real controling factor (meaning quality control) in the education.
It's a little bit like diving schools: When I first learned diving I went to the diving school that was attached to where we went in vacation. At that time I didn't realize that being a beginner diver isn't much different a situation from being a beginner rider (although diving is obviously learned more easily and faster).
Of course I had no idea about how different diving schools are altogether, no concept of the different training systems and/or clubs in place. Hell I was a beginner and as such wasn't equiped to tell a good place from a bad place.
It was only years later when I introduced my fiancé to diving that I was able to deliberately access and evaluate diving schools and only then did it come to mind (after being at some real bad and good diving schools in the meantime) how much I had put myself at risk and how lucky I had been to find my first diving school.
I think many riders suffer the same with the trainers they pick. You won't be able to tell if someone is really good until you have been with someone who really IS http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I think our system's greatest benefit is that it cuts off (by and large) the very bottom of what would otherwise be poor quality trainers / instructors. Also the instruction in Germany is synonyme for learning how to train because learning to ride is understood as being learning how to train your horse while in the US there in fact seems to be a difference between riders and trainers that really shouldn't be there.
There is also not much difference made here between breaking and starting a young horse. Surely our BNT's won't back a horse before it has reached a certain level but most who can afford to be this picky will still have staff to do the starting in a manner that is according to their own concepts. Because how a horse is broken does make a huge difference. There needs to be more to it than mere toleration of a
'foreign body' on the horse's back...
Think one other difference is that in the US - and maybe that is because everybody has to do everything on their own - many riders seem to have lost touch with reality and tend to think because they have been riding for x- amount of years that they are sort of knowing it all. There seems to be much less acceptance of training authority than in Germany.
Here - can be the old military background or a mentality thing - when in a lesson you just don't say things like 'I can't do that', 'it doesn't work' or 'he won't do it'. And if you are being yelled at you think it's probably because you don't have your sh** together and not because your trainer is a jerk.

[MsHunter]

OK I think this is getting off topic again.
Not to be rude, but we are here, NOT in Germany or anywhere else in Europe. Let's find out what the charges range here in the US. I think people can buy a horse for less in Europe becuase it cost less to raise it. OK following that train of thought , then horses should cost more here because it costs more to raise them.

Moving forward. I'd never operate a facility and take horses in WITHOUT insurance, liability etc. YOU should not send a horse to a farm that isn't insured. Again, that is moving off topic.

When horses leave here that have been started anyone can ride them. Let's also remember that maybe someone charges you $1000 a month, but after 2 months YOU can sit on the horse and hack it around quietly. Now, there could be another facility that cost $600 a month, but maybe it will take 5 months before you can sit on that one. There are also more than sheer monthly costs in mind.

How good is a facility at starting youngsters?
You'd have to get references from people who have used the program or look at the ones showing to see!

As an aside. Just because it may not be a horse worth TONS of dollars later does NOT mean it shouldn't be started properly.

I've done "repair" work for people that NO ONE knows about. In the last 5 years I've had about 6 sent in to be "fixed" that someone broke along the way. Faster or slower isn't always BETTER.

Cowboys aren't always the answer either.

Fuel for thought.

Again, what IS some current pricing for starting youngsters?

Also, I want to state that I have 2 of my own that have shown on the line TWO times only in their lives that are now starting u/s to keep MY costs down!

Now, if I could ONLY learn how to update the website.

You guys have inspired me. My husband at this moment is out buying a digital camera with the video clip option so we can add some of ours 'starting under saddle" to the website for potential clientele!!

[Gold Dust]

With all due respect I cann't see the full 'bereiter' program working here in america. Just because you may have this name attatched to you does not mean because you have started a horse you or any trainer here in the US can tell you it is a future AO horse. No one can know that until it has some horse shows under its belt. Many trainers here in the US can do an evaluation if they are good and spend enough quality time with the horse. You need to shop around, watch them work and know the past accomplishments they have. Same with the person breaking or starting them. Ask around, shop, get on the phone. Both of these type professionals are out there. Sometimes you find that all in one but usually not. As I have said befor, BNTs get this title with age and wisdom. I'm not sure but if you took a baby to George Morris do we think he is actually breaking it? I'm thinking no but I won't speak for him or any other trainer.

Do I think America should certify its trainers. YES. Test us, go ahead. This would help the average consumer just starting out in this sport. Like anything else, why would anyone buy a baby without investigating all this first? Maybe if we had to have a certificate it would help that we have passed a test. Until then, you as the buyer and breeders should already have people set up in line. If you like dressage, set up camp week after week watching trainers work, same in H/J land.

Bareiters are not going to be any more of a financial savior to you then the good top American professionals right here IMO. Anyone need names on the East coast? I'm sure I could send you a list to get started! If you told any BNT you had a baby, it's not broke but you wanted them to work with it once it is I'm sure they too could point you to a person they already trust and deal with.

[Silly Mommy]

I am only replying because I feel a bit insulted.

I have full insurance, and have sent one home recently after 30 days with solid WTC, lead changes, and jumped an x. A few months later I saw her at HITS Saugerties in ring 5 schooling. I even sent her home with a video tape of her progress ---- all for $500 --- which I was told was the best $500 the owner ever spent.

As I said before, that type of training is out there, and I guess since I don't have to find it, I don't appreciate what I have. Maybe I should raise my training board http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif to get more youngsters.

[XHalt]

This is a great discussion and I believe not only needs to happen hear but at the registry and USDF levels. I think that we are on the right path with recognizing the issue. 10 years ago, nobody would have thought this was an issue, now with much more emphasis on young horses via the wonderful breed shows, materiale classes and 5&6 year old FEI test, people want their babies to participate. However, there isn't a large group of BNT trainers out there to assist. I completely agree that there are tons of capable non-BNT and non fancy farm that can handle starting young horses. I think the real issue is finding a way to promote the smaller trainers willing to do this work. I think that this could be a wonderful opportunity for the USDF to test and approve 'young horse trainers', similar to the certified instructor program.
It's unfortunate but very true that many people do not want to take the risk of working with young horses. I personally would love to quit my 'real job' and start horses for people, it's one of the most rewarding things to me about riding. However, it is not a business plan that I can make profitable and attract customers. If I want to go pro, the only way I could do it is working with horses that I own and then selling them.
It's sad and definitely hurts US breeders. Germany has such a structured program that if you want to be a BNT, you need to work your way up. We don't have that, it's easy for junior on expensive horses to immediately get rides on clients horses and turn pro. Maybe comparing the US to Germany isn't the right thing to do, very different economies.

[MsHunter]

Silly Mommy I wasn't negatively referring to you at all.. I think your farm and horses look awesome, and your quite affordable!!! I am thinking this group wants LESS THAN even your rates.. NOt sure, but that is what I am thinking!!!!

[MeanderCreek]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:

Can you imagine a breeder looking a raw talent in the back yard, with no way to get it trained? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now I haven't read the whole thread, so please excuse me if someone alread said this but WHY THE HECK DID YOU BREED OR BUY THE DARNED HORSE IF YOUR NOT CAPEABLE OF BRINGING IT ALONG YOURSELF OR OF ENGAGING SOMEONE ELSE TO DO SO?

If I buy or build an airplane but can't fly it and don't have the resources to hire myself a pilot would I sit around trying to figure a way around my dilemma? Nope, I'd either learn to fly or sell the plane. Pretty simple.

*edited to clarify that I'm using you in a general sense not directing this specifically at OM.

[Ashemont]

We've been at this WB breeding business for 20 years. During that time we've sold most of our horses as babies... prior to 2 years of age. Up to that point I can handle them myself and no matter what anyone thinks there is always a good market for the correct, good-moving foal with a great temperament.

The horses we've had at 2 and beyond we send to a western trainer to be backed the fall of their 2 year old year. $450/month and they come home doing walk-trot quietly and even go down the trail. At that point the majority have sold because buyers like to be able to sit on them - and they can do so safely at this point.

The few that haven't sold I've sent to an eventer friend who loves bringing young horses along. We've been fortunate to usually have a horse for her when she is horseless or one horse-shy so there's very little expense involved. Once she has worked them for 1-3 months they ALWAYS sell readily.

On other occasions we have traded breedings for training. With the top horses we've always been able to find a promising rider who needs a good horse. We pay the board and show expenses and they do the rest. It's worked very well for us. If you have a world-class talent that is doing mid-level work we've found you can even interest a top pro in the job without expense. Were this not the case we would never have been able to get Pikor to the FEI level, nor would Welt Marke and Phoenix be doing so well.

I really liked the comment about event riders as I do think they are great for starting the youngsters. They give them a look at all the disciplines and then you can see what the HORSE wants to do. It's much easier to train one for a job they like http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif And I do think there are lots of 'unknowns' out there who are very capable of starting a youngster and who are willing to work with you. It's just a matter of finding them.

[Carol Ames]

This really rather ironic, though it is hard to laugh; I looked for15 years for such a job, starting younghorses for a breeder, only to be told, i was over qualified for what they were really looking, for, muckers,It was after several months of flying around the country looking for jobs;and, realizing thatheonly offer ihad gotten was from a breeder of TB /TW crosses who, they wanted them evented, and, sold to my eventing friends in area II , now, suddenly, breeders realize that, they do need someonewho, wants to start babies, though this may seem strange, theTB racehorse breeders were re always intereted in people to start their horses;;What was ithat madetheWB breeders aware that, they needed us? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[talloaks]

Carol, I think the warmblood breeders realize they need trainers of young horses because they need to ssell their horses of riding age. So many don't sell as weanlings. Event riders start youngsters and can give them some primary dressage training instead of just backing them, or the cowboy trainers.

[Silly Mommy]

Awww, c'mon Bernie, even us Hunter Princess' can throw a leg yield or two in there! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If anyone actually looked at my website, you'd see my theories on breaking youngsters, and having them tell me what job they want to do.

Take Yak - until recently, I wasn't sure if he was going to go hunter or jumper - well, he likes striped rails, so after a season or two doing line/diagonal ad nauseum, he'll find those striped rails!

[Kareen]

To Ms hunter you are being rude http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I for my part do live here and not there. It's ok if you'd like to keep this discussion national as COTH is an American mag. It's not ok to imply someone is not taking part in the discussion because they are referring to what's done elsewhere.
Maybe it is just this attitude of 'we don't need help we know best what's good for us' that prevents the US from having a professional system in place? Because to be part of such system you need to accept the fact that yes there are people who know better and no oneself is not always right. Food for thoughts, am out of here http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[MsHunter]

To Kareen. I am not trying to be rude just factual. Furthermore, I have not once discussed the methods used to start young horses, I don't think that is relevant to this discusssion. What I found particularly relevant was COST.
As far as Germany/Europe and US, I feel we can't compare costs (not methods). IMHO from all the BNTs I know that go overseas to buy horses it is ALWAYS because they can get a 3/4/5 year old that IS w/t/c jumping a 2'6" course and swapping it's leads for under $35,000 and in some instances even $15,000.

Even if mine sat in a field I can't sell them for $15,000 when they are 3 years old. So, instead of fighting the system, I either have to try to sell them as weanlings or 1, or wait until they are 3/4/5 and broke and going.

When someone shows me another way I am all ears.

[ise@ssl]

There are good points here but I feel there are are some real problems in the US with respect to this topic.

In this country just about ANYONE can print up business cards and call themselves a "Trainer". With NO National Horse ID system - you CANNOT validate a Trainer's competition record even if they tell you the horses they say they have competed on - you have to rely on their word. Any rider can compete at any level in this country (except for some Qualifying shows)- very different than Europe where riders earn the right to move up the levels. In lower levels of dressage - they are also required to JUMP the horses in competition as well.

One comment that really put some sand in my shoes - was the comment about mucking. That's one MAJOR DIFFERENCE between here and Europe. Young riders there accept the fact that they will have to do BARN WORK as well as ride. And riding the best horses is something they EARN - not expect.

We've used Event rider for early training on young horses and do agree they are capable of giving them a taste of all three disciplines but once the horse is started we have seen other problems. The biggest one being total lack of patience. If the horses are talented and athletic they want to push them - especially with cross-country and jumping. And they seem to have almost NO PATIENCE for flat work in Dressage. Draw reins, side reins and (oh yes!) Pelmham bits.

We put all the ground work on our young horses and will start them ourselves if they aren't sold as youngsters but we learned the HARD WAY - they will not go where we can't monitor the training and we will have the right to speak up if we don't like what we see. Here in the Northeast - we have the reality of weather and an indoor becomes a necessity to train through the winters. So we either board locally or may face the decision to build a small covered arena. Boarding out has issues in that MANY people are just plain rude when it comes to riding around young, green horses that are just backed.

We are planning to convert space in the carriage house to an efficienc apartment with the hopes of having a bereiter from Europe for several months a year to back the young horses. I know there are some hard working young riders in the US - but (don't flame me) they are few and far between. YOung Riders from Europe don't have problems with putting in long days, mucking and helping with other barn work. Here - most young people expect to be "managers".

There is work in process now to set up a national network of qualified trainers so that owners/breeders will be able to link - up with those who don't consider it a "come-down" to start or with with a young horse. Sadly our FEI riders think it's beneath them - European riders tend to have horses of all ages under their supervision as a normal.

FYI - many of the other breeders I spoke with at DAD had the same comment about marketing their young horses - especially those under saddle. The majority of people looking seem to want horses with talent and movement that is far beyond their ability to ride. Some breeders told me they've backed way off or stopped breeding because they just won't sell the horses to the people that come to look at them because they feel the horses will be ruined. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[mbj]

I am rather suprised no one has mentioned the Pony Club testing and rating system. "A" and many "B" level riders are tested to be able to run a barn, start horses correctly,prepare for and compete at prelim event level, teach riding,etc. It is really hard to get your HA and A leevels, the Natienal office would have a list, these kids know how to be complete horsemen, not just riders.
As to the cost of starting a young horse:
My daughter is an "A", I was a "B",and both like starting the babies. But the expense is in the cost of horsekeeping in our area (Unionville, Pa.). Good turnout with big fields with hills helps the babies learn to balance. Good miles of varied hacking, ditto plus great for minds. We have that...location,location, but at a price. Land here is $$$ and good hay, straw, and help ditto. I can't see charging less than $1000/month for training board. Sorry!

[LLDM]

The question of how things work in Europe/Germany Is very relevant to me! As a breeder they are my main competition. They are for dressage trainers too! And maybe they aren't hugely impacting the hunters yet, but they do impact the jumpers in a major way. The hunters may not be far behind.

I always appreciate Kareen's input. It is a great perspective to have. And one should always study the competition's methods, especially when they are sucessful. We will never be Germany, but I for one, am very interested in what they do right!

We now have (in the last 5 - 10 years) colleges here churning out "Equine Studies" degrees. I know a bunch of young people who have them. These degrees do NOT prepare these kids for a real job in the horse industry. The one's who are prepared are the one's who have worked outside these degree programs in the real world.

Folks have been telling breeders to act like businesses and be cost effective in order to meet market demand. Our biggest cost that we don't control is training. Everything else is cut to the bone without compromising the quality of breeding and the health of the horses.

I would love to have the option of getting a "breeder's license" and an "amateur trainer's lisence". It would give me something tangable to show buyers, agents and higher level trainers when presenting my horses for sale. I would differenciate me from the dozen other casual WB/sporthorse breeders that live within 10 miles of me. The ones who call me up wanting free advice on whats wrong with their foals, mares and yearlings because they have no idea!

Yes, we live in the US. But that does not mean we don't have many professional organizations who publish and enforce standards for their professions. Why should the horse industry be any different?

And, BTW - Why the heck does it cost us so bloody much at rated horse shows?

SCFarm

[Gold Dust]

Four pages and no solutions. Round and round all of us have gone. Some may find this sad, others have just rolled with the punches and followed the current system.

Even if I waved a magic wand and had Bareiters imported by the truck loads tomorrow-what does that solve here in the US? Where are they staying,what facilities are they at and where, and how easily can we here in the US get to them. If you are in the West Coast and they are in the East Coast-well, do the mileage!! Many trainers here are insulted by this thread. They are here. Maybe this was the best thread anyone could start. Reality check. The system someone has spoken about earlier linking owners and breeders together with starters of young horses will only save you leg-work. Not money. Like 1-8oo-dentist! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I have just returned recently from Ireland and I can tell you the great system they have there and why bother,it will take ages for us to evolve into that and change our way of thinking or for that matter what the major consumer is looking for here in the US! Besides simple geography-small country compared to the US and everyone has some sort of small farm.

[Gold Dust]

BTW-I have just read a 3 page discussion in dressage forum about cerification of dressage trainers. No real solution with that 10 year program to me. There seems to be quite a few opinions on this and that has been around for 10 YEARS. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif
You learn something everyday in this buisness!

[LLDM]

IMHO there is always value in discussion and debate. I really do want to understand how trainers think, what their reality is. The solutions must include both breeders and trainers.

Gold Dust - I don't understand. You say you, as trainers, are willing to be tested/certified, but oppose us trying to start a bareiter type program. This bareiter model is a precursor to higher level trainer certs and that is one of the weaknesses of the dressage cert. program.

No solution will work if it does not fit our industry. If we don't talk about it, we won't understand each others perspectives. That alone is valuable to me.

The Germans win consistantly in international competition. They came within a one error of sweeping every team Gold Medal at these Olympics. They are starting up hunter classes in Germany. They breed the majority of top class horses in the world. We a fraction of the numbers of horses and people as we have. They have incredible depth in horsemanship. I believe they are more than worthy of study.

Their programs will not work wholesale for us. But we should be able learn something from them that can work for us. They are organized, efficient and educated.

I am very sorry if you are offended. That is not the intent and I am not sure I understand why. The breeders have been hearing that our young horses are too expensive for a while now. We have been told we need to produce better horses for less money. We need to solve the same problem with getting them trained. It does not mean that our horses are not valuable, nor that your training is not valuable. It means that right now it costs more than the market will bear.

Breeders generally have no other source of income, but trainers often do. If we leave the trainers, you won't go out of business. You might even get better horses brought to you by clients who want to show, who are already well & correctly started. Or have better sources to find great horses for clients without having to start them yourselves (you said you didn't want to start them forever).

One the the main differences I see in Europe is that many professionals train, teach, coach, show, run barns, board horses, judge and breed. But they don't do it all at the same time. As they progress through their careers they conentrate on a couple of theses things at a time, and then move to higher levels. BNT's don't run barns or start horses. They train future professionals (who are starting the young horses) and manage the careers of superstar horses or judge.

SCFarm

[Gold Dust]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LLDM:
IMHO there is always value in discussion and debate. I really do want to understand how trainers think, what their reality is. The solutions must include both breeders and trainers.

Gold Dust - I don't understand. You say you, as trainers, are willing to be tested/certified, but oppose us trying to start a bareiter type program. This bareiter model is a precursor to higher level trainer certs and that is one of the weaknesses of the dressage cert. program.

SCFarm <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did not say I was against the 'bereiter' program. What I tried to state is the here and now. This will re-vamp the entire industry as it exsists today. Most people financial problems are current. If we all agreed to this, how long do you think it would take for this system to be fully up and running? How will this help any breeder or owner during the change of industry today? For all the capable current trainers out there it will not put them out of buisness. We can hash this out on the table but it is now, and still, will these 'bereiters' be cheaper?

I do want to understand breeders problems and how they think. It helps see where the problem lies.

You speak of how in Europe, most professionals do it all. Could that be problem #1 and why the american system has evolved to where it is today. New rule-all professionals have to do it all in america? See what I mean. I really am not trying to be rude or sarcastic. Tell me what you want from trainers and the public will see if it realistic and/or feasable.

Right, wrong, shut up or just go away GD. What should I do? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif Play nice now!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[talloaks]

Silly Mommy---hey!! nothing against hunter riders at all!! My trainer has her own race horse stable and starts my young stuff. Of course she did the pony club as a youngster, hunts, did 3 day eventing, some dressage of oourse but has now settled with racing!! Okay with me!! She starts them very well, none have ever thought of bucking or unloading anyone and seem very agreeable to the undersaddle work. She is kind and gentle and very horse oriented so it works well for us. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[MsHunter]

DONT GO AWAY GOLD DUST!

I think I am still lost on what the problem is.

Can ANYONE here that thinks we have a problem
explain to me WHAT IT IS?

How much does one expect to pay for board/care/training a complete package to get a horse STARTED U/S with NO specific discipline in mind.

I haven't heard anyone comment except for a few of us who stated our fees for providing this service.

[LLDM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gold Dust:
I did not say I was against the 'bereiter' program. What I tried to state is the here and now. This will re-vamp the entire industry as it exsists today. Most people financial problems are current. If we all agreed to this, how long do you think it would take for this system to be fully up and running? How will this help any breeder or owner during the change of industry today? For all the capable current trainers out there it will not put them out of buisness. We can hash this out on the table but it is now, and still, will these 'bereiters' be cheaper?

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">First off, breeders need to and do look down the road. The foal I am planing for now will need a solution in 2009/2010. The solutions I have cobbled together now may well not exist by then. And I would like better solutions than what I have now, more efficient, more reliable.

"Bareiters" don't necessarily need their own facilities. A young trainer, specializing in young horses, could probably make a pretty decent living going from breeding farm to breeding farm. That way I can control costs and do all the things a large facility must charge for (holding for the farrier, clipping/pulling, show prep, etc. AND I can use my own farriers, vets etc. who know how to work with me on a cost effective basis (I do my own shots, mail order perscriptions, get a volume discount from my farrier).

For a young trainer, they can earn money with out the capital expenses as a way to get started. There are also now more outbound BNTs. This is becoming very popular in dressage and beginning to happen with the hunters too. It is much less expensive for me and them. It will not replace the existing show barn based trainers, it suppliments those of us who have to have our own facilities.</span>

I do want to understand breeders problems and how they think. It helps see where the problem lies.

You speak of how in Europe, most professionals do it all. <span class="ev_code_BLUE">&lt;but not at the same time&gt;</span>Could that be problem #1 and why the american system has evolved to where it is today. New rule-all professionals have to do it all in america? See what I mean. I really am not trying to be rude or sarcastic. Tell me what you want from trainers and the public will see if it realistic and/or feasable.

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">What I meant is that the progression is clearer. Because they have a system that is progressive they get to move beyond some tasks that our BNTs have a hard time getting away from. Like having to manage barns or school lower and mid-range horses. The bareiters do that as part of their education process. Bareiters often go out to smaller breeders in Germany to supplimment their education and find horses to show at the lower levels. </span>

Right, wrong, shut up or just go away GD. What should I do? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif Play nice now!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">GD - We are not saying that the current system doesn't work for most people. It just isn't working for the breeders and the well bred US horses, since WE HAVE TO compete with European imports. We need to expand our systems to include a more robust middle ground between amateurs and big pros. Serious ami's, as Kareen spoke of, want to learn training as well as riding. I am in this catogory. Future pros also need to learn how to train correctly. This middle ground is necessary if we are to support a quality US breeding program.</span>

Your comments and insights are always welcome!

SCFarm

[LLDM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MsHunter:
DONT GO AWAY GOLD DUST!

I think I am still lost on what the problem is.

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">The cost of breeding, raising and training quality horses in the US is more than the market will bear.</span>

Can ANYONE here that thinks we have a problem
explain to me WHAT IT IS?

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">The cost of breeding, raising and training quality horses in the US is more than the market will bear.</span>

How much does one expect to pay for board/care/training a complete package to get a horse STARTED U/S with NO specific discipline in mind.

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">We don't think it is unreasonable to cover your expenses and make a little profit. But that doesn't mean I can afford you. You won't get my business because your model does not work for me. I am using other methods, like having people come to me or shipping into them. If you have a good client base, and I think you do, don't worry about this discussion.

We have had this identical argument with people who want to buy our youngsters, but say they cost too much. No kidding, we understand the hard costs involved in breeding, raising and training quality horses. This discussion i about efficiency, which BTW the Germans seem to have mastered.</span>

I haven't heard anyone comment except for a few of us who stated our fees for providing this service.

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">Yes, you are too expensive for me. Not to say your program is not worth it for the services you provide. But I can get the job done for less myself by leveraging my facilty and my labor (I clean my own stalls and insure my horses, not the facilty (CC&C) becasue it is private with no outside horses). </span>

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Outbound trainers are becoming more and more of a reality. Beacause there is a need and a market for them. The will not replace existing trainers, but will suppliment them in certain situations and areas.

But it is much more difficult to determine the quality of these trainers in advance. Especially up and coming ones. We need some standards.

MSHunter - I will tell you what we have been told as breeders by the buyers. You are too expensive. We don't care what your costs are. We can find it cheaper and better in Germany. That's the problem. I don't like it either, but I am trying to meet the market and I am not ready to give up on figuring out solutions to make it work. It's not personal to you, nor to me when the buyers say it. Its just case right now.

SCFarm

[MsHunter]

OK lets play the game your way.

THe horse is at YOUR farm (the breeder).

The rider comes to YOU.

The rider is PAID. Let's cover gas, time and rides. Let's be inexpensive. $25 a ride.
4x a week. $100 a week x 4 weeks in a month.

$400.

Why not send your horses to Silly Mommy for $500 a month all inclusive? It appears she would save you TIME, MONEY and send you back a horse trained in a very short time.

I don't think we have a problem and I don't think many RIDERS who are HORSEMAN and/or trainers are going to spend their time on the road going to farm to farm MILES apart and having wear and tear on their vehicle and a ton of downtime in driving miles.

Now I see the REAL problem if I read correctly. Breeders want to keep their horses at home and have the young horse started u/s at their facility.

Personally, I don't think that is realistic but who am I to say, it is clear you think because my system works that I should butt out.

I am just a little POd as I know for a fact many people charge for BOARD what people like me charge for a total program and MORE.

Did you ever think if you PUT MONEY IN you MAY get money out?

[Khamian Farms]

I just finished reading this entire thread, as well as the one on this forum regarding breeding expenses. Seems like US breeders don't mind paying for multiple palpations, ultrasounds, regumate, collections, - etc.... to get that foal on the ground......but......at the same time, by the time the foal is training age, the owner/breeder is not willing to invest in the training with the theory that they can't afford it. Do the Europeans incur the kind of vet repro expenses that have come to be standard here? I doubt it.

I do not see that there is a problem starting young horses, as long as you are willing to get out your check book and pay a professional to do it. If this is necessary to get your young horses sold, then it needs to be a part of the entire plan from the beginning.

I see certain posters often coming up with "creative" ways to get young horses trained - which I think is a bit of an insult to a good trainer. Would you consider approaching your veterinarian with the same creative trades to pay for his services?

Perhaps the problem is this, breeders are not thinking far enough into the future - and - they are investing all their money on the front end, when they should be saving for later.

I am just a hobby breeder, with some nice ponies and a daughter who is talented enough to start baby ponies under saddle. You have NO IDEA how often we are approached with "free lease" proposals from pony breeders/owners. What is usually being proposed though, is that we provide free training and board for someone else's pony - under the guise that my daughter will enjoy riding this quality (though it has never had a saddle on its back) animal. Often, these same breeders have spent thousands of dollars on stud fees, vet expenses, showing on the line, and inspections - all expenses that they expect to recoup. Yet, they will allow me the pleasure of paying for my daughter to show their pony? Uh - no.

I don't have a flame suit yet - do they sell them on ebay? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Julie
www.caspianpony.com (http://www.caspianpony.com)

[LLDM]

MSHunter - Please don't PO'ed at breeders because there are folks who get $800 a month for simple full board. And charge for every little thing on top of that.

Right now I pay $100 for a half a day for a good trainer (eventer) once a week. Together we get 4 to 6 horses worked. From ground work/ backing/ hacking and some more advanced stuff for the older ones. I ride the rest 2 - 3 times each the rest of the week. I take the older ones out to clinics or local shows 1 to 2 times a month. Each horse is on a program.

What I would like to get to is a young horse trainer to come 3 times a week. That would get me at least four, maybe five horses in training for about $1300 a month. All year long. And maybe use some of that to get them to bigger shows with the trainer's help. And yes, I would definitely pay them a comission for finding a buyer and putting together a deal.

I believe that is a good deal for someone at the beginning of a professional career. They would have no overhead (other than vehicle wear and gas) and incentive to get some good comission money. If they can find four or five breeders to do this they will live pretty well for a young pro with almost no risk.

My current trainer does have her own barn and horses in for training at exactly $500 a month. But she won't come here more than once a week because of that. I don't blame her at all. She has a barn to run too. I do have the option of sending my horses to her. And I will when it makes sense to do. And I will be and am glad of the bargin I have now. But she doesn't sell at all.

The difference is volume, cost control and quality control. Not everyone needs or wants the same thing. But there is room for this kind of business.

BTW - I work my butt off 7x24x365 too. I won't be able to start my own forever either. But my breeding program will continue to improve. I have to plan for the future. No one's costs are going down.

And I DO PUT MONEY IN! But as it is I must make up the difference in LABOR. I need to be in a position to pay for expertise only.

Until the economy picks up and until I can send a young horse out to someone I can trust to do a good job, this is my reality. Maybe you are not competing with Europe. I am.

If I only had one young horse, it would make sense to send them out. If I sell a young horse I do recommend trainers who do a good job.

SCFArm

[LLDM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Khamian Farms:
I do not see that there is a problem starting young horses, as long as you are willing to get out your check book and pay a professional to do it. If this is necessary to get your young horses sold, then it needs to be a part of the entire plan from the beginning.

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">The economy was very different when I bred the horses who are starting now. Selling prices have dropped, everything else has gone up. And I never planned on selling babies, but always planned to have them going first. Training board at the place I started sending my youngsters has gone up by 50% in the last six years.</span>

I see certain posters often coming up with "creative" ways to get young horses trained - which I think is a bit of an insult to a good trainer. Would you consider approaching your veterinarian with the same creative trades to pay for his services?

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">An insult? Why would a trainer be insulted? Most trainers I know are discipline specialists who don't start youngsters anymore. They want them with good basics already there. And YES I do work vets to keep costs down without compromising on quality.

In the "real" (read business) world professionals often trade services and products to keep capital outlay down. Especially if there is an up side for everyone.</span>

Perhaps the problem is this, breeders are not thinking far enough into the future - and - they are investing all their money on the front end, when they should be saving for later.

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">Excuse me, but no. Some "backyard casual" breeders, yes. </span>

I am just a hobby breeder, with some nice ponies and a daughter who is talented enough to start baby ponies under saddle. You have NO IDEA how often we are approached with "free lease" proposals from pony breeders/owners. What is usually being proposed though, is that we provide free training and board for someone else's pony - under the guise that my daughter will enjoy riding this quality (though it has never had a saddle on its back) animal. Often, these same breeders have spent thousands of dollars on stud fees, vet expenses, showing on the line, and inspections - all expenses that they expect to recoup. Yet, they will allow me the pleasure of paying for my daughter to show their pony? Uh - no.

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">You know, maybe they thought it would appeal to you. There are kids who ride well that don't have access to nice ponies that would kill for that chance. I have "guest riders" all the time. It works out very well for both sides sometimes. My more advanced horses get "miles" (not training) with competant ami's who can't afford a nice horse right now or have one on layup. Just because it does work for you doesn't mean its a stupid idea.</span>

I don't have a flame suit yet - do they sell them on ebay? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Julie
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What the heck is wrong with creative solutions and trying to improve/expand the situations we have?

SCFarm

[Leena]

This is a very interesting thread, really. It is a long road to get greenies ready for show, have them in good shape, good manners and doing their jobs.

Since I don't think somebody had mentionned, I will:

Biggest problem good breeder have to sell their horse and maintaining prices at a realistic level is that you can compete with a non reg. horse. I heard in Europe riders show reg. horse only. If someone would confirm this that would be a good start.

Now, I have been around in my country, riding, backing, training for breeders. I never got paid and I would have loved to hear a breeder offering to me a partnership, risk sharing or thing like that.

I even met a breeder who told me to pay for certains fees after I had backed his horses ! Farriers, vets bills. Wait a minute !

I am sorry to say but I have rarely seen honesty in horse business.

Expenses are gone up, yes but they have gone up everywhere. Horse industry is not different, experiencing economy fluctuation. If warmblood breeding was exotic 25 years ago, now you can find very good horse and prices have not gone up because there is more breeders, more horse on the market.

In order to stay in business, continue developping quality sport horse, rideable, breeders has to work establishing long term partnership with riders and trainers.

I hope my opinion will help.

[Laurie@CBF]

The crux of this is that different breeders have different needs. If all I wanted to do was point my young horses at the hunter market I would be happy to send the youngsters to Ms Hunter or Silly Mommy.

I want to continue to improve my breeding program. For me that means maintaining registered/approved breeding stock. Mares and foals go to inspections. Young mares (and maybe a stallion one day) go to their performance tests. There are also a number of young horse classes getting started in a variety of disciplines (dressage, eventing, etc) which it would be nice to take advantage of (especially as some of them are $$ classes). Linda Allen's recent Olympic article on maintaining excellence discusses the benefits of the young horse programs in Europe. These will become an important source of "buyers" in the future.

The bereiters are so appealing because they can give the young horse a good foundation AND would be willing to go ride them at the MPT and the special young horse classes. I am not in a position to bring one over. If a few local breeders got together to work on it - I can see it as a possibility.

I am really happy with the event riders that I currently work with. All my three year olds are started this way. This suits my needs and goals for my program.

[Gold Dust]

Let me try to make some sense out of all of this without a novel.

First-LLDM-It makes more sense to me that you are looking for help from bareiters down the road. If you think this will help the american Industry and many other breeders agree, as a group,you may make this work. It will take a while I would think this may be a bandwagon to jump on right now any interested breeders. I would wish you all with true sincerity, luck with this venue. Until then, if you have someone that comes in for $100.00 for half a day and gets 4-6 horses done, you have found someone that should be showered with thank-yous.

For owners,you have the MSHunters and Silly Mommies of the world and I'm sure there is one in your area.

To the person who said deals can be insulting. Yes, IMO they can. This must be handled with the utmost tact and knowledge of this buisness, knowing what all parties may loose and approach cautiously. Trust me, all is not money galore made in this buisness and you must be prepared for your purchase,when it goes into training, not to be the star you thought it was. Now, you have involved someone else and that can really make you loose sleep I would think. But, then again, all could work out for both parties. Anyone have any percentages on that?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
Trading services, that's different. I refer to that as the 'barter system' and that has its ups and downs too.

Some top trainers do not have their own barns and can travel to you. Not many but they are out there if you look. I will say, MSHunter quoted an awful cheap price at $25.00 per head though! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

That free lease someone talked of. Ha, that sounds like a good raquet. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Your daughter should be honored, as you did, I laugh at that too.

So, until a new system can ever be put in place, breaking and training is something that should be thought of as a future possible expense. I wish you all the best of luck but until then, no matter what hub bub was going on at Devon, America does and can start horses. The pros are here. They just need to be paid.

Oh, by the way, I had a talk with someone today about 'bareiters' and they told me it takes 5 years to complete this program and they are paid for their services in Germany and very well and the same would follow if they were here. Can someone else clarify this a bit more?

[Gold Dust]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MeanderCreek:
WHY THE HECK DID YOU BREED OR BUY THE DARNED HORSE IF YOUR NOT CAPEABLE OF BRINGING IT ALONG YOURSELF OR OF ENGAGING SOMEONE ELSE TO DO SO?

If I buy or build an airplane but can't fly it and don't have the resources to hire myself a pilot would I sit around trying to figure a way around my dilemma? Nope, I'd either learn to fly or sell the plane. Pretty simple.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As blunt as this may sound to some of you, it really is so true. I'm just picturing myself buying a plane and trying to figure out who will fly it.

[MsHunter]

Hmm GOld Dust, doesn't one need one of those to get to where you are and back http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif!!!

Well... I don't know, I do know that I wont barter for services, it never works out. I pay
they pay and I can reduce fees for repeat clientele, multiple horses, or people that want to reduce fees for me for what they have to offer (crystalacresponies does very nice tails!)

I have tried barters, partnerships, they really just don't usually work out very well..

Shucks, even my own child rides with a different professional barn that costs more than mine and that is hard for me to do!!

Now i have to buy a made pony over the age of 7 that has show mileage but will tote an 8 year old around, jump cute, move well, auto changes, be sound not spook and be a good size.

Can anyone just GUESS what that costs? ANY IDEA?

Well let me tell you. MUCH MORE THAN THE HORSES WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HERE!

I am going to have to rob a bank to get her aboard the above listed. We are only talking short stirrup pony.

Now, there is a market Khamian Farms LOL!

[Khamian Farms]

Ha - Ms. Hunter - you are not kidding - that is a market. I got a call today for Dainty Dana - to lease her for the Ocala Circuit for a walk/trot kid who might be ready to move up to short stirrups - but she is already leased through next summer!!! I need to clone her.

Back on topic - LLDM _ I think my point that you missed is that breeders might want to consider cutting costs at the initiation - i.e. if it costs you $5K to get a mare in foal - do not expect to recoup that through her foal. Get a mare that is more fertile - and spend $5K on the back end for training to make the finished product salable. Read the other two threads on this forum regarding vet costs and evaluating mares. It is simply poor business on the part of mare owners to be spending 4 and 5 digits before the foal is even on the ground - and then expect the market to absorb that expense.

Julie
www.caspianpony.com (http://www.caspianpony.com)

[Oldenburg Mom]

Gee! Hasn't this thread taken some unexpected turns! Well, that's the great thing about this country: everyone can contribute to the discussion.

Having said that, the debate here is not, repeat NOT over whether there is a need—or even indeed whether there should BE a need—for creative solutions to this problem. The debate was intended to be over one subject only: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>For many breeders the status quo is neither applicable nor suitable. What are some solutions to the problem. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Suggesting, as has been heretofore mentioned, that breeders pony up the cash (http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif that was a great pun, if I do say so myself! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif) is not going to happen, no matter how desirable. I am sure we would all like to win the lottery too. It is neither productive nor realistic to make plans for its disbursement.

In fact, to be blunt, it's counter productive; we can haggle about THIS point too until the cows come home. This also won't solve anything.

The two issues are simple, I believe. The first is our competition—and yes, I'm referring to those who BREED, not train, not board, not buy—is Europe (and, I'm hearing, increasingly South America!!)

Secondly, this is not a localized issue to any one county, state, or region—nor east, south, west or north coast (either USDF or USEF.) It is a NATIONAL issue.

Regardless of how we manage to solve (or not to solve) the problem the buyer is king. Yes, it's the old 'supply and demand' issue. The demand is for started horses, the most economical supply is currently Europe. FOR WHATEVER REASON, *that* is the current state of affairs. The quantity of warmblood sales in the US vs Europe, or even the mere appearance of greater foreign warmblood sales is enough to impact the American breeder.

Creative solutions are the only solution as we do not have either the infrastructure to recreate (i.e. Germany, France, Holland) nor th luxury of hundreds of years of refined breeding programs.

Partnerships, personally, have worked extraordinarily well for me. I have seven horses, and five partners—some on only one and some on two or more. These are people chosen with extraordinary due diligence. However, I do not believe this is the only solution. It is cumbersome and leaves both parties open to significant financial/legal vulnerabilites.

So what do we do? Throw up our hands in dismay, hang our heads and pay pay pay? Hmmmm. Personally, I don't think so. And do I, personally, think this is a revolution that is going to happen over night? Absurd. Of course not. We are going to bicker and argue and pout and huff ... everything you can imagine. But I'm not going to stop asking the wrong question: WHY CAN'T WE DO BETTER? Throwing cash at a problem seldon solves the problem, mostly because it leaves the problem unidentified.

This country has an amazing ability to re-invent and re-create itself at the drop of a hat. (And please, let's not have a major debate about THAT.) We have enough creative ability—on this board alone, I believe—to start and investigate ideas and ways to solve this problem to everyone's satisfaction. Admission to the party must exclude pettiness and parochial/provincial attitudes.

C'mon guys. Can't we all pull together? I want to see AMERICAN horses competing and winning in international competitions, trained by AMERICAN trainers and American ingenuity. And p!ssing, moaning, complaining and whining won't get us there. Positive, innovative, forward looking ideas ... that's the ticket. Now it only remains to ask, Who wants to try?

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Khamian Farms:
It is simply poor business on the part of mare owners to be spending 4 and 5 digits before the foal is even on the ground - and then expect the market to absorb that expense. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hear hear.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Oh, and one more thing.

To steal/paraphrase JFK (abject apologies) I choose to bring this subject up, not because (the solution) is easy. But because it is hard.

It bugs the cr@p out of me that a group of extraordinarily talented people—the breeders, riders and trainers in this country—have to run to someone else to buy their horses. Quite frankly, if they can do it, so can we.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. It's not about any one person or any one country. It's about the art. It's about the sport.

I still like to think we can do the job better than anyone else.

And in case you people didn't understand, or recognize it, that was a HUGE, GIANT, pat on the back for a job "well done." http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I really think you're the best.

[Home Again Farm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>if it costs you $5K to get a mare in foal - do not expect to recoup that through her foal. Get a mare that is more fertile - and spend $5K on the back end for training to make the finished product salable. It is simply poor business on the part of mare owners to be spending 4 and 5 digits before the foal is even on the ground - and then expect the market to absorb that expense.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Julie,

I don't know how long you have been breeding or how closely you have read threads on this forum this last season, but your statement above makes me wonder. I visited your website. You have lovely ponies. I wonder if you do live cover? If so, your expenses will not be similar to mine, especially if you use your own stallion with your mares.

I had simply astronomical costs this past season. My mares are normally extremely fertile and have always caught on first cycles in past years, often with frozen semen. This year nothing seemed to work. Diagnostic work has NOT turned up any problems, so I must chalk it up to the fact that every once in a while breeders WILL have years like this. If I had had my crystal ball working, I would have stopped my attempts sooner and saved money. Unfortunately, it wasn't working this year. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Even in a good year with quick, successful breedings, my costs are high. I have expensive mares. I use stallions that are expensive. I do not cut corners on vet work (which is one reason that my mares USUALLY get pregnant on first cycles). By the time I have a foal on the ground it will have cost me at least $8K. I sell them as weanlings for $10-12K. They sell because they represent top bloodlines and come from excellent performance horses. It is a very unusual circumstance for me to have a youngster by the time it is ready to be started. I have a wonderful trainer. I pay her well. So this discussion is interesting, but not critical to me.

Blanket statements like the one above are not always valid. They can lead to folks getting upset when no harm was intended. Just wanted to point out that incurring big breeding costs is not always "poor business" practice. Sometimes it is just awful luck. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[MsHunter]

I disagree about breeding costs. I have a wonderful repro vet. I can get a mare in foal and confirmed in foal for approximately $400 total. If I need to breed 2x I'd say $800.

Add the cost of the stud fee and a year of upkeep and we are at that $5000-7500 mark everytime.

Again, it seems that you have to sell them early on or sit and wait a few years.

[Boss Hoss]

I think if breeders want a solution, we need to study our own market to understand its dynamics better and not look to another country, to another market with a completely different economic system and culture. What will work for us?

WHO is our market? Lets be honest..the majority of buyers are amateur riders, either teens or middle age, mostly women, who do not have their own training facilities. The best riders are campaigning client horses to begin with, so you aren't breeding for them unless you are the client.

So there seems to be 3 stages where you can sell them:
1) young and not close to u/s work
2) right around the u/s starting stage
3) going well u/s and possibly with show experience

The first stage is probably the easiest, everything is "FEI potential" as a yearling. they are also just about to enter that "fugly" stage of development so hide them until they are 3+. The expense of starting the horse isn't immediately immenant, and they possibly plan to do the u/s work themselves. So as a breeder get them out the door as yearlings.

The 2nd stage is probably the most difficult stage to sell them. Someone buying a 2.75-3.00 yo horse is already considering the cost of starting them u/s right after the purchase investment. The breeder has another 2 yrs of costs wrapped up in the offsrping so the prices are higher. I believe you also deal with the amateur owner also questioning whether or not they can bring along a 3 yo just started. As well I think they become very skeptical of the horse's sanity, they'd rather wait another year to see how this horse behaves u/s before they attempt to bring along the young horse.

The third phase, now you're faced with putting the horse into a training program which is going to be a substantial investment of time and money. Not only do you have to now have the facilities to train and breed, you have to now have the funds to pay a trainer. Training is an industry in and of itself like breeding, so now you're looking at establishing TWO operations. And each young horse progresses at its won rate. You can't expect each young horse to be at the same stage by the same time during the first year. If you plan to invest only 3 months on each horse before recovering your investements, you will have to consider the quality control. it would be better to train each horse to the same quality no matter how long it takes before presenting them for sale. This way you have a much more consistent "product" to offer to the market. Now, develop a budget for the uncertainty of the effects of training on an animal? So now the financial investment you have in the offspring is going to above what the market will provide.

So the best time to sell the offspring is early, but now if you are worried about the quality of your breeding program in performance you are releasing your offspring into the wild so to speak and now relying on the "market" to bring out the quality of your program. The chances your offspring wind up in the hands of a professional or really good amateur is slim to none. Training is still an important part of the breeding program.

This is all old news I'm sure, so what solution will work for this market? How are breeders going to get 3-12 months of professional training on their youngsters, and how can you convince the buyer that the price they are paying is a value to them? This first year is the most important year in their training. If its done right, the market can ride the 3-4 yo u/s and have a great horse for the future.

So we're back to either having the facilities to have both a breeding and training operation on your farm where you can hire a trainer to come in, or you have to find a trainer who has the facility and space to take on your program. And again the market is controlling what can be floated for a sale price.

Big breeding facilities have both operations on site and do all of their training and campaigning, like an Iron Spring Farm or Someday Soon Farm.

Small breeding facilities..wow, you really have a challenge at task. If you go the 3rd option and put a year of training on the offspring by sending the horse away to the proper trainer, you will be lucky to recover your costs in the end, according to what the market will provide.

Now here's where it gets interesting...why does a dressage facility send the youngster to a "cowboy" or "western" facility for starting? Is it costs or is it experience? Starting a young horse takes a different skill set than training a FEI horse, although its all connected in the training scale. if you send your horse to BNT they are most likely NOT going to be the person mounting your youngster. But you will pay the BNT rate of course.

So I think its going to take some business negotiations with some trainers to get a feeder program started, where you feed them with young stock to start and campaign and they work for commissions on sale or monthly stipends. Once the trainer has a feeding program then they can be more established as a source of quality sale horses. You need negotiate down the cost to a reasonable rate. BNT getting $1500/month for training a 2nd level horse are not going to want to work for peanuts or even half that rate especially if they have a waiting list themselves.

So the key is to find bNT trainers (b as oppossed to B) who would rather have stability in a feeding program and perform more consistent services and like dealing more with the horse than the student. This is also a service to offer to breeders as a trainer. The starting process is its own industry and trainers can sustain themselves just on this if they enjoy this part of the training scale.

So I think breeders need to put out what they are looking for and what they are willing to pay, and then I'm sure you'll find suitable trainers. No, don't expect BNT riding in the GP ring to be providing this service, but some of the best horse starters never see the FEI ring. Don't pay the BNT fees as the service you need can be provided at a more reasonable price.

I also agree that a multi disciplinary approach to starting the horse is much more brilliant for the youngster. Eventers do seem to provide this variety more than dressage only trainers. If I could have all of my expenses paid, all I would do is ride young stock. I don't want to be rich financially, just rich in life's experiences.

We are on the other side of the breeding operation, we are a single stallion owner so we face a different situation. We want the offspring to make it into experienced hands as a 4yo and be compaigned for performance sake to promote the stallion. There is a LOT to be said about the rideability of the stallion's offspring too, as word of mouth kudos can get you more breedings than a fistful of blue ribbons. But this is a different discussion itself as well...

[Fairview Horse Center]

Don't forget that with breeding, you also have the cost of the mare factored in. If you have a $30,000. mare, you may hopefully get 15 foals out of her during her lifetime. Begin at that end, and you have at least $2000. of her value, + 25? years of lifetime upkeep cost divided into her foals. Even if you have a nice pasture and runin, and can keep her for $1000.(basic feed, farrier, and vet costs IF you are very lucky) per year, = at least another $1700 for a total of $3700. per foal + stud fee, + vet bills, + extra feed during nursing, + registration, + advertising, + a "share" of the farm mortgage and maintenence, + labor. Need I go on?

To cut costs, do you start with a cheaper mare? Send her off to meat if she is 20 years old, and no longer producing? I don't think so.

[Hexel]

Boss Hoss very well said and many of my thoughts as well. My recent conclusion has been
that I either keep a few and invest/gamble staying the course and see them into the pregreens with the appropriate trainer. Or add a facility to start my own and others.Not a fancy facility, workmanlike, very safe fencing, clean stalls, clean water buckets, fabulous feed/hay,educated horse folks providing care. You know, the kind that can just look out into a paddock and see if a horse is not right. Then do something about it.Folks that if a horse is running the fence will go bring it in before it gets hurt. People that really care that the horse is getting the right foundation to last it a lifetime. Horse folks that can read a horse. That can tell a temper tantrum from real fright. That know when to be soft and when to be firm. How to keep a horse sound and not break them down. If the horse goes to a show, knowing it will be clean, sleek, in the correct wt. and turned out professionaly. People you can trust to send a horse home if it is not ready to be trained. A trainer with enough tact to give you their honest opinion of your horse and it's potential. The owner may not agree, and the trainer may not always be right. However at least they are not simply sucking a few more mo. training board out of an owner who is not getting much in return. Now if I were only able to find the fountain of youth.

This is all more complicated then meets the eye.

[LLDM]

Boss Hoss - I have practically gotten down on my knees over on the Eventers Forum with just this type of proposal. Especially when they are complaining about the high cost of a good horse. I think there is real synergy here. But I haven't had much interest. PT me if you want to know the details.

Hexel - This is precisely why I want trainers to come to me. You have described my farm. And while I do start my own, I wouldn't presume to start someone else's. I do believe there is a market for what you describe. I just haven't done the cost anaysis. See Silly Mommy and MSHunters posts. Or ask my trainer. And if you find that Fountain - let me know!

Home Again - Yep, I have had a year or two like that. Sucks don't it? No way out but through. It's the chance we take a breeders. Other years those stars line up and everything works the first time. Non-breeders will never understand. Nor will they get the "Ballerina" foals. No one holds more risk than a breeder and no one pays a higher price when things go wrong. The dues is high in more ways than one.

OMom - Thank you! I know all this "talk and no action" gets old. But I DO think it is valuable. We have to start with some kind of understanding. We have to understand the problems if the solutions are to work. Who knows who is reading theses threads and what ideas are brewing. In the mean time, they have helped me at least come up with ideas and not waste too much time making the mistakes others have learned the hard way.

No, we can't recreate the German system here. But why can't we study a system that works? He!! I can't even find a simple list of trainers - in ANY discipline.

SCFarm

[Oldenburg Mom]

LLDM & Boss Hoss—

Great stuff. It's PRO-ACTIVE! Boss Hoss, I've already PT'd you with some comments about the two paras which you speak about "feeding" to trainers. Hopefully, this might benefit BOTH. And that is what I have been struggling to explain.

Will this work for every trainer out there? No No NO! Many many trainers are far too "down the road" for this. That's why with all the young 'uns I have, I have so many partners. I do believe some trainers will see the value, if it can be structured correctly. But the watchwords will have to be honesty, integrity and knowlege. The breeders' contribution must be outstanding youngsters.

Home Again - sorry, I don't mean to be insensitive to the major bucks breeding can sometimes take. My point in saying "hear hear" to the comment was that the MARKET won't support the breeder passing the cost on, so basically, they are screwed if they have a bad year.

LLDM also, before I forget:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>No, we can't recreate the German system here. But why can't we study a system that works? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is sheer genius. I'm already starting to work on next year's FairHill program (yeah yeah yeah, I know.) And one of the articles I was planning on writing was about the German system—based on an interview with one of the German handlers that flew in from Devon (I got to know him fairly well. What a great guy!) How it works, I mean. I never knew this stuff about the clubs, did you?

Oh, and one more thing. Yes, this has been discussed over and over. We've all got to keep trying. How did that Thomas A. Edison quote go? "I haven't failed 999 times. I've just found 999 ways that don't work!" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Hexel]

LLDM, if I saw the example consistently of the farm I've described, Then it would be worth the cost. It is frustrating some of the stories I have heard. Invest more and not get a genuine return. So we will do as much as we can at home. Try to get them going well enough for a really proven trainer and go that route. I'm all for up and coming trainers, they need a break too. However, sometimes it seems prices are not equal to experience/knowledge. Compelling some to go a bit futher up the experience/proven ladder for a bit more expense. It is tough no simple answers solutions, so many different, individual situations . I've been very lucky to have had help with mine, from folks that have recognized the benefits for them as well and a willingness to do what it takes from all involved. Sometimes it can be a win win situation.

Now maybe we can find that pool, in the movie with the outer space pods floating in it. It really rejuventaed those folks from the long term care facility. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Boss Hoss]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Boss Hoss, I've already PT'd you with some comments about the two paras which you speak about "feeding" to trainers. Hopefully, this might benefit BOTH. And that is what I have been struggling to explain.

Will this work for every trainer out there? No No NO! Many many trainers are far too "down the road" for this. That's why with all the young 'uns I have, I have so many partners. I do believe some trainers will see the value, if it can be structured correctly. But the watchwords will have to be honesty, integrity and knowlege. The breeders' contribution must be outstanding youngsters. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well behind every BNT is a bNT, even their barn managers and working students are qualified to do the job. Networking!! That's what breeders need to do, find the connections through BNTs.

Also BNT trainers like to get good quality horses to train with as well, so this really can be a win-win situation for both breeders and trainers. And let's face it, how many BNT actually own the horse they are riding and campaigning?

For instance, I've been my wife's working student now for 12 years. I'm the bNT behind her BNT name http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif i get all the bug-boy work. Horsie bucks, rears, stops, won't go forward?..here, Mark will ride anything! But my wife's BNT reputation gets the credit. hay! that was my ass hittin the dirt not hers http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I like competing our stallion, but I'd much rather deal with training horses than training people to ride horses..the horses are much easier to teach IMO.

I really think if you look you will find the trainers to work with your breeding programs. I just think you have to look in different places and network. Cold call (via email) trainer websites telling them what you're looking for, then you'll get connected to the people who can do the job and at your rates.

[Oldenburg Mom]

THIS this is an idea. Ok, maybe it will just fizzle out and die. Maybe. But this is forward thinking. It's trying to solve the problem.

I'm thinking a good thing, Boss Hoss, would be to associate this with a group like, (THIS IS AN EXAMPLE, FOLKS.) say the Midwest Breeders Group. Perhaps what we can do is use bits and pieces of the German system—the parts that work well—in order to accomplish something.

Thought?

[can't re-]

I have been thinking about this dilemma...just some random thoughts....

Hmmm, I think a group/area endorsing or utilzing one training facility would be a great way to go.
It would help guarantee the trainer steady business, quality equines. It should guarantee the horse owner, excellent care and training at a reasonable fee.

So what is a reasonable monthly fee????? You can't expect the facilty owner to just break even. And how much would a trainer need to make?
Hey, how about a sliding scale for the horse owner! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Oldenburg Mom]

You know, isn't it interesting. And I am in the same boat,... I'm being critical of myself here as well as everybody else.

It is soooo easy to comment, remark and poke-holes at the current system.

It is sooooo tough to come up with something else!

Can't re-

The training facility idea isn't bad. Of course, it would depend upon how it would work.

What about this: bringing in a "bereiter-type" for three months. Eveyone who wants to use "his" service shares in the total cost of supporting him. Kind of like your shared facility, but also a shared trainer.

[Bundy]

60 days is the longest a person could come over from Germany on a tourist visa. Unless you actually go the route of getting them a work visa they can't stay longer. Expensive and time consuming to get them a working visa. Most of the clinicians etc who come over - do it on their tourist visa - which limits them to 60 days at a time.

[Lucille]

OM you bring up some very interesting points. The bottom line.....having a horse trained by a pro is expensive. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 3Blackmares:
60 days is the longest a person could come over from Germany on a tourist visa. Unless you actually go the route of getting them a work visa they can't stay longer. Expensive and time consuming to get them a working visa. Most of the clinicians etc who come over - do it on their tourist visa - which limits them to 60 days at a time. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure I would want to bring over a bereiter. I'm thinking someone here in the states. I guess my question is, is three months enough?

Lucille—don't think you got it quite right. I think the expression is: "everything to do with horses is expensive!" http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Boss Hoss]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I'm not sure I would want to bring over a bereiter. I'm thinking someone here in the states. I guess my question is, is three months enough? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ask your horse..each one requires different time scale. Maybe the "goal" should be to train the young horse till they all reach the same point, from a quality perspective. This may take 2 months for Charlie but 6 months for Cherley..if you present your stock after 3 months of training, you will present a variation in your "product", instead of presenting the "product" after its finished.

We aren't baking here: you can follow a recipe and a fixed time scale and get muffins after 30 minutes in the oven repeatedly, but we're dealing with a living animal that has something to say about all of this.

[Tiki]

So, Boss Hoss, do YOU take outside youngsters in for training at your bNT rate instead of your wife's BNT rate? I think it would be super to support a young horse trainer. I am supporting one right now, but his price has gone from $750 to $1000 in one year. I am looking for one to start my youngsters in all phases - dressage, jumping, trailriding - including jumping small logs and brush cross country. I would like someone who can present a 4 year old mare for her mare performance test - which requires basic dressage and free jumping in a chute. If the horse is there that long, I would like it to go through the 5 yo FEI Young Horse Test. If it's a good trainer and affordable (and maybe fearless too) I would definitely feed him/her well with very, very well bred horses who have all been imprint trained and handled well since birth. All of mine are good citizens, but I can't start them and I have no place or time to ride them now. I would also (hope this isn't a complete pipedream) like to find someone who can sell them - either out of their barn or out of shows. My present trainer is very good, but expensive, and he can't sell his own horses, never mind mine. He is too busy training, handline and judging to be selling. I don't even want a BNT, I only want someone who can make a good horse attractive to a BNT or a BNR and help me get them well started and well sold.

[Gold Dust]

I'm still not getting it.

If I could wave the magic wand for all of you, what is your cure? You don't want to pay a BNT, but don't want non well known either. You want a 'bareiter' but they have to get here and be paid too. You may only be able to do 3 months training but what if they need 5? You want to all get together and chip in for a trainer but you all live all over the country so that didn't pan out either.

WHAT IS YOUR DREAM SOLUTION? Please answer this.

George Morris wrote a very good article a while back how America has evolved in to the country of 'specialists'. Simply put, not too many do it all anymore. Braid, Groom, train, breed, break start etc. Anyone remember that one? I wish I remember where that was I read it because it was great and gave a major reality check to how hard this all really is.

Has anyone thought that this is just simply put a tough buisness and you really need to do this out of love and not the gobs of money flowing in the door!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Boss Hoss:

We aren't baking here: you can follow a recipe and a fixed time scale and get muffins after 30 minutes in the oven repeatedly, but we're dealing with a living animal that has something to say about all of this. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I love this board. Thanks BH. Good analogy. And yes, you're right. And you made me giggle.

[Home Again Farm]

OMom wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> What about this: bringing in a "bereiter-type" for three months. Eveyone who wants to use "his" service shares in the total cost of supporting him. Kind of like your shared facility, but also a shared trainer.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is somewhat what I did when I needed two 1998 fillies started in 2001. I had been using a wonderful trainer who went back up north, and I was at a real loss about how to get my horses started. I contacted the same trainer and asked her to consider coming to FL for the winter to train. She gave me her bottom line — the minimum number of training horses she'd need, her requirements for housing and a place for her own horses to stay (which were minimal as she is not a high maintenance person). I then got to work and contacted all my friends who were breeders in north FL. I basically sold a bunch of folks on this trainer. I found places where the training horses could be boarded within a reasonable driving distance for the trainer, as well as a place for her and her horses to stay. Within a couple of weeks I had ten horses lined up and the plan went forward. We are three years down the road from that beginning and the trainer is still here. She works longer and harder than she would wish because there is a constant turn over and always new horses to be started or to be fixed after having been started poorly. She also teaches quite a few riders and shows horses for clients. I would not want her work week, but it comes from being in demand — which is a GOOD thing.

Such people are hard to find, but they are out there. As a small breeder I could never support such a trainer singly, unless I started a training facility myself as a sideline (and that may happen). But when a bunch of folks banded together and got something started it grew like topsy. We paid real money, but her rates were quite reasonable and the results given were consistent and rapid enough that each of us had young horses that were ready to be shown to buyers after an investment of $1600 to $2400. When you consider what we breeders put into a young horse from birth to three years, that additional amount to have a rideable horse, as opposed to one that can only be shown free and therefore remains a real question mark to a buyer, is (to my mind) a reasonable investment.

Perhaps a seasonal arrangement could be made where a group in the warmer climes shared a trainer with a northern group. Trainer worked in the south for the winter and escaped the heat in the summer. Food for thought.

[LLDM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Boss Hoss:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I'm not sure I would want to bring over a bereiter. I'm thinking someone here in the states. I guess my question is, is three months enough? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ask your horse..each one requires different time scale. Maybe the "goal" should be to train the young horse till they all reach the same point, from a quality perspective. This may take 2 months for Charlie but 6 months for Cherley..if you present your stock after 3 months of training, you will present a variation in your "product", instead of presenting the "product" after its finished.

We aren't baking here: you can follow a recipe and a fixed time scale and get muffins after 30 minutes in the oven repeatedly, but we're dealing with a living animal that has something to say about all of this. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Boss Hoss - I absolutely agree with you. Here is the problem I run into: There is no standard or common understanding of the training levels of young horses. Backed, well started, green, etc. all mean different things to different people. We don't even have the terminology to speak accurately of a young horse's training - esp. cross discipline or pre-discipline.

IMHO there is a whole laundry list of things a young horse should know before he is backed. And IMHO W/T/C quietly under saddle in a round pen is vastly different from W/T/C quietly in the open. I would never sell a horse as "well started" who did not do the later, but many advertise it as the former.

The goal is to sell horses into a situation where they will thrive, at whatever level they are capable. But without any sort of common understanding of the progression of training, this is almost immpossible.

There is no US "national body" that even attempts to outline any standards. Of riding, training horses or basic horsemanship. This is one reason prices are all over the map and buying/selling is such a mess. If I did not care about my horses, perspective buyers or my reputation, I could sell horses all day long for big money to people who didn't know any better. There are a lot of them.

SCFarm

[Silly Mommy]

Home Again-

Give me 3-5 stalls and reliable help up here, and I'm there! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[SportArab]

Hey OM - I agree. We probably passed each other multiple times at Devon, especially considering all the time I spent walking Buddercup and Beau Soleil in the warm up arena.

With regard to the question: I can get horses easily to walk trot canter and these are ones I would call green.

But I find buyers, in this market, demanding not only that a horse be able to do this.. but they want to see the horse going to shows.

For example, I have a very nice 15.1 h black Arabian gelding. He's got nice movement. He's got a lovely disposition - can't remember the last time he shied at anything. I took an equitation lesson on him at a recent dressage clinic.

I've a neighbor who's been looking at him for her students, but it's not enough that she's seen him perform at his home and at two clinics... She wants to see him at shows before she'll recommmend him.

A couple of years ago I could have sold this horse in a flash. Now, I've got a bunch of fussy potential buyers.

[Home Again Farm]

Silly Mommy wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> reliable help up here <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah — there's the rub. Reliable help — an almost impossible thing to find, and even harder to keep. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[Boss Hoss]

Currently, the bNT rate = BNT rate because this is a team effort and ONE training philosophy set by the BNT through the LLC (acronym soup). However, if you research the BNT rates in our area you will see that the BNT rate is still 40% less than others.

We discussed for 2005 a possible seperation of bNT and BNT rates for the different services: you know the thinking it doesn't "require" a FEI trainer to start a 3yo. We also know that the majority of our client base can't pay the BNT rate that you will find in our area. So we decided to stay "affordable" for the range of services.

Also once the youngster has reached the proper milestones, then BNT takes over and continues progressing the horse into dressage if that is the desired discipline. At this point the horse would be ready to present to the market for sale, or continue its education. We wouldn't want the bNT to BNT transition to become a financial hurdle.

But yes, although my "boss" is a dressage specialist, I am a jack of all trades and give the youngsters to her ONLY once I know they are ready. When it comes time for the FEI 5yo test and such, of course I let the BNT do the dirty work of showing when possible. She can make my work shine even more..always a bride's maid, never a bride.

The young horse gets to experience more than a round pen or dressage arena with me. We do trail rides, stream crossings, hacking out ALONE, gallops in the fields or conditioning path, cross rails and logs on the ground. We eventually get them to hunter paces and fox hunts when possible.

Last week, I led two GP horses on their FIRST trail ride up into the forrest. these two have NEVER seen the moss growing on the North side of a tree even. Did I mention I led the way on a 3yo stallion who even had to make a new path through laurel for these sissies? This guy also went along when I schooled my stallion XC a couple weeks ago, so he can see what life has in store for him and get used to the experience.

but enough of this thinly veiled advertising..back to the discussion at hand.

And for the record, there should be "hazard pay" involved in fees for starting horses..its like jumping out of an airplane in the Army. So regardless of bNT or BNT..the "risk" is the same.

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I read it because it was great and gave a major reality check to how hard this all really is.

Has anyone thought that this is just simply put a tough business and you really need to do this out of love and not the gobs of money flowing in the door!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey GD, I don't think there is a person on this board that would/will disagree. If it was easy, everyone would do it and we'd all be getting perfect scores on dressage tests and never have a rail down.

And going back to the person who said you shouldn't be breeding if you can't afford to train 'em. I believe this topic applies to those horses that don't sell as babies.

But let's see if I can help make heads or tails of this. And please. If I get this wrong, somebody jump in here and set me straight.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> We, the American Breeder, is competing with a system/structure—I'm thinking German—that has an exceptional way of getting young horses to market. And they are damned successful at it. IF you are a large farm, like Hilltop, Iron Springs, DG Bar, etc. this is not an issue as you have an infrastructure—trainers, students, handlers, etc.—to call upon. And the cost is defrayed by your clients. Who can afford your services (else they wouldn't be your clients!!!)

Now, knowing that, worldwide, the average breeder has only two mares, this excludes a huge number of breeders. Because, as you have so ably pointed out it is expensive!.

Ah, but there's a twist, you see. Because they've managed to get horses to market cheaply (by our standards) in Germany.

So. The American breeder has a double barrel pointing at him/her. If she can't sell her babyin which the largest market is, by and large, uninterested (hunters, and less so jumpers) he/she is stuck with a growing youngster that will NOT sell without training.

And at any time, Germany (or other European countries) beckon with open arms to buy buy buy buy. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think everyone on this board can hear the frustration in your post. That's why the title to this thread was "Frustration Inc." because, frankly, WHAT DO YOU DO? I think a lot of breeders, whether they are right or wrong, feel like they're playing with the big boys, but with loaded dice. And there isn't a single person on the breeding forum, that wouldn't LOVE to hand over cash to their favourite trainer. I sure as heck would.

So, where does that leave everyone?

Trying to find alternative solutions. Some are NOT going to work. Maybe, just maybe, we can find the beginning of something that might work. Maybe not. But gee, I sure am going to make an effort—and not throw up my hands in dismay.

Personally, I think it's just marvelous that you're getting involved in this. You folks have such a fine reputation and such fine experience—you're the ideal candidates for everyone!

And as far as waving a magic wand and making everything perfect: I don't even have an answer for that! I wish I did. And I believe, in my heart of hearts, that the people that breed, that I have met, are NOT expecting a ton of bucks. Hey, they just want to break even—or make a little profit. They DO do it for the love.

Boy, this answer sure paints everything as clear as mud, doesn't it? That's because a LOT of breeders are searching for answers that aren't easy and can't necessarily be found without looking under a LOT of rocks!

I do know this, however; I had a long conversation with a very very well known small breeder at Devon. She's seriously considering giving it all up. Because of this very issue. And, considering (I hope I'm right here) that the grand champion of Devon was from a small breeder, it would be a sad sad day. Because you're killing the little guy... and in doing so, smothering American sport horse breeding.

It's tough, I don't think there is anyone on this board, and I mean the WHOLE BB, that doesn't know it's a tough tough tough road. But we all know why we do this: those velvet sweet noses, that goofy expression, the willingness, and the forgiveness that horses give us, without question.

[LLDM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gold Dust:
I'm still not getting it.

If I could wave the magic wand for all of you, what is your cure? You don't want to pay a BNT, but don't want non well known either. You want a 'bareiter' but they have to get here and be paid too. You may only be able to do 3 months training but what if they need 5? You want to all get together and chip in for a trainer but you all live all over the country so that didn't pan out either.

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">We want the equivolent of a Bareiter, because they are trained consistantly and tested. Part of this testing is riding/training young horses. We would like to train them to a standard level - but there isn't one here. There are plenty of variations on the "import a Bareiter" that have been done successfully. But, believe it or not, we don't think it is a good long term solution for the US breeding industry. Do you have any ideas other than pony up the cash and take a loss?</span>

WHAT IS YOUR DREAM SOLUTION? Please answer this.

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">My dream solution is a US based program that outlines training standards and provides a certification process for trainers that includes (but is not limited to) a "trainer of young horses". If such a program included a horse management segment that delt with the specific needs of young horses, then I would consider shipping a horse out to one.</span>

George Morris wrote a very good article a while back how America has evolved in to the country of 'specialists'. Simply put, not too many do it all anymore. Braid, Groom, train, breed, break start etc. Anyone remember that one? I wish I remember where that was I read it because it was great and gave a major reality check to how hard this all really is.

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">I believe GM was refering primarily to riders. Esp. juniors who have a great junior career and then think they can be trainers.</span>

Has anyone thought that this is just simply put a tough buisness and you really need to do this out of love and not the gobs of money flowing in the door!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">No SH!T! We (breeders) are simply talking about making a smaller, quality operation sustainable and not a burning crater. Maybe you are too used to "Ami riders" who do it as a hobby. This isn't my hobby and I am sure it isn't yours either. "Gobs of money" LOL If I wanted that I would go back to my IT career. I'd have given up a long time ago if I didn't love it.

Yep, it is a tough business. And if you don't know just how "tough" breeders are then you don't know anything about the realities of a good breeding operation.

GD - I am beginning to get the impression that you think we are all idiots. Why bother with us if that's how you feel? I am sorry if I am reading you wrong. </span> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

SCFarm

[Gold Dust]

I'm sorry if that is how I am coming off. If I thought you were all idiots I'd just laugh and pass this thread on by.

If breeders don't breed horses trainers are out of a job. the 'specialist' article GM wrote on bears more meaning then just Jr. riders. Breeders specialize in providing quality horses for trainers to train. Without these horses, a trainer has an even harder time in front of them. Yes, someone said training is 50% and I believe that but theres not a trainer out there who does not want to start out with good bloodlines in their favor. I don't want to see breeders go out of buisness. This is all based on teamwork. Starting with good breeders, starters, blacksmiths, vets and down the road yes, grooms and braiders. It's one big team. One knotch here can not fall off that chain. Yes, some of these may multi-task but it's still teamwork.

Myself,would like to make this work for all. We're even in this process of trying this partership deal and will let you know if it is a success. They can form easily but it's the end result that tells you of success or failure.

No, I don't think you are all idiots but when I can ramble off dozens of people off the top of my head that can start horses very well and also take them on to the show careers if necessary you have to wonder why I think we need to ship in people from overseas. Does this not contradict the breeders that are telling you not to go to Europe to buy, stay here. Should this same not go for trainers. It just doesn't make sense.

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gold Dust:
... you have to wonder why I think we need to ship in people from overseas. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was talking about a bereiter "type" ... but a US person. I want to keep this a home grown product! I do NOT want my cash going overseas to support foreign horse breeding or training.

There are a lot of people, however, that do buy in Germany, then keep the horses there to grow and be trained.

[Gold Dust]

Actually OM it was someone else who made that suggestion. After 7 pages I forget who said what so mostly it's just a general statement, not just directed at the last poster. I'm too lazy sometimes to scroll back!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gold Dust:
Actually OM it was someone else who made that suggestion. After 7 pages I forget who said what so mostly it's just a general statement, not just directed at the last poster. I'm too lazy sometimes to scroll back!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't blame you! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Trying to remember every detail makes you a bit nutz!

The important thing is that we're all talking and discussing and exchanging views. That's a Martha Stewart "Good Thing" (even if she is in jail!)

[Fairview Horse Center]

There are good people out there. I know a team of 2 women in SC that do an excellent job of backing, and getting youngsters w/t/c + jumping small fences. They can get almost any horse going nicely within about 2 months. They would LOVE to do this for a living - it is their dream, BUT need financial security, so they work a regular 40 to 50 hour a week job. I spoke to one the other day, and asked her what it would take to allow her to quit her day job. She said she would need 6 to 8 horses in training, cost about $1000. per month each (45 to 50 horses per year for 2 months). Unfortunately, she just can't afford to take the chance of being able to find the horses to keep her financially secure. How many people would be willing to commit to a program for starting young horses? It is just so unknown.

[Dune]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
There are good people out there. I know a team of 2 women in SC that do an excellent job of backing, and getting youngsters w/t/c + jumping small fences. They can get almost any horse going nicely within about 2 months. They would LOVE to do this for a living - it is their dream, BUT need financial security, so they work a regular 40 to 50 hour a week job. I spoke to one the other day, and asked her what it would take to allow her to quit her day job. She said she would need 6 to 8 horses in training, cost about $1000. per month each (45 to 50 horses per year for 2 months). Unfortunately, she just can't afford to take the chance of being able to find the horses to keep her financially secure. How many people would be willing to commit to a program for starting young horses? It is just so unknown. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you ever get Tahoe backed and/or sold? I always thought his pix were so cute and wondered where/how he ended up. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[jackie]

I do think someone made a good comment that at least made me think about how I budget money and make up a business plan.

While I am resigned about dropping sums in vet fees and collections to get mares in foal, I did not plan ahead and save some money to send that same youngster out for 30-60 days training! I think I will start a "college fund" for my babies now!

Of course part of my flawed thinking is that I will save the fees and do it myself....once I find the time. When will I ever learn I dont have anytime!

Thanks for making me re-evaluate my "plan."

[LLDM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Karosel:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sonesta:
The ISR is trying to address the problems by setting up some young horse training sites around the country. They will bring in young bereiters from Germany for three months to work with they youngsters to get them going well. There is one set up in Louisiana, but I'm not sure where. I'll get more info about it and let you know. It sounds like the 100 day stallion testing program only for OTHER than stallions. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Has the ISR considered getting trainers from Germany to train riders? I know its not really their responsibilty nor their goal to produce good trainers; producing good horses is their goal. However, having bereiters come over from Germany seems like a band-aid solution. What we really need in North America is a program to train riders to become good horse trainers. Once we have good trainers we will have people to train our youngsters. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To which inca replied:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>inca
Premium Member (1/04)

posted Oct. 01, 2004 09:58 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, Sonesta, but I THINK Ekkehard DID mention that part of the ISR program was to have a US person assist in the process so that they could learn and eventually take over. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Both 3BlackMares and Kareen simply described the process and made some observations. I don't remember anyone saying that this was the solution, only a stop gap.

I believe the main problem we have is that we (as in the whole horse community) does not acknowledge and recognize the existence and on going need of/for a "middle tier" of horseman. In Germany, this is a Bereiter. Here it is just someone (not unlike myself) who is more than an ami/jr and less than a professional trainer.

If we had such a designation, program, whatever, I would be amoung the first in line to participate. And support those who participate. I would love to be able to advertise my "well started" youngsters as being "well started" by someone with a credential under the guidence of Professional Trainers! Which is BTW, prcisely what I do. And yes, I pay them!

The sad fact is that I could hang out a trainer shingle and do a better job than 50% of the trainers in my county alone. But I do not do so because I have both personal integrety and respect for the real trainers I work with and/or know of.

I have no interest in being a real trainer. I only want to train horses and in the basics at that. But such a program would work nicely as a precursor to a real trainer certification, esp. if it covered horse management and stable management areas.

SCFarm

[Fairview Horse Center]

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif Unfortunately, not yet. I have 2 people here waiting to see how he will back. They love him to death, and are very interested, but want him started first. Breeding season is ending now, so I will go into "sales" mode and work on getting him going. The person from SC above doesn't have the time with her regular work (my reason for the discussion). We will see what/who I can find.

[pwynnnorman]

A thousand minutes later, she finally responds (sorry, Tannenwald Trakehner):

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Wow. Interesting post and I agree with many of your points, but do you REALLY think competition-oriented clientele are opposed to natural horsemanship methods? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I was just making a gross generalization. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif It's not that I think they are opposed, merely that such methods don't/rarely add much value (if any) to the animal. I can't charge x amount more because the thing was round penned, for example.

[Granted, that's yet another gross generalization.]

[pwynnnorman]

BTW, wow, guys. For the first time in my personal history on these BBs, I've actually printed out this entire 7-page spread to read more carefully later on. Great minds, great minds...

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Great minds, great minds... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Couldn't agree more.

And, just another little tidbit. I was futzing around on the USDF site this morning, and found the SH committee information. Additionally, I found this information which I thought might be of interest to everyone (who hadn't already found it)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Mission: To promote the development of quality dressage stock in the United States.

Goals:

1. Promote breeding goals for sport horses.

2. Educate breeders, buyers, trainers, and judges as to the desired ideals of a sport horse.

3. Provide competition guidelines.

4. Maintain stallion-performance records.

5. Promote tracking of competition records and horse recording for all horses.


Objectives:

1. Improve participation, administration, support and sponsorship of the USDF BC Series

2. Cooperate with breed registries and the Federation of North American Sport Horse registries.

3. Provide information to USA Equestrian licensed dressage sport horse breeding judges regarding conduct of the USDF BC qualifying and championship classes.

4. Support dressage sport horse breeding shows by providing timely and accurate information and materials.

5. Revise the USDF Dressage Sport Horse Class Guidelines book.

6. Continue to provide information to competitions and judges on the conduct of the Materiale classes.

7. Maintain a list of eligible instructors to conduct USDF Sport Horse Seminars and Handlers clinics.

8.Create a DSHB Instructors Manual for instructors.

9. Complete and distribute USDF Sport Horse Program promotional material.

10.Reevaluate score sheets.

11. Continue to evaluate the qualifying system for eligibility for the USDF BC Series Final.

12. Recommend to USA Equestrian rules for the IBC classes at USDF BC competitions.

13. Evaluate current determination of USDF BC Series boundaries. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very interesting. In fact, verrrrrry interrrresting.

&lt;KT raises her eyebrows very high indeed.&gt;

[Tiki]

Hi Gold Dust. The reason I don't want a BNT to start my youngsters is that they are too expensive, too busy, and they're not the ones who will be doing the riding/training anyway - it will be their working students - for the BNT price. Yes, they will be under the supervision of the BNT (at least some of the time), but not all working students are alike. I, myself, have had to 'fix' well schooled horses ridden by working students.

The thing about bereiters that we (breeders) all like (if I may speak for others) is that they ARE professional trainers, but they are (what is definitely missing here) professional trainers that work at starting horses to mid-level work. They are the ones who can start the young horses (themselves! although they can/will/do use their own working students to put weight on the horse's back the first few times, and maybe even use their working students to be the first ones to sit on them under the bereiter's control) AND take them through, for example, a mare performance test at 3 or 4 (depending on the registry) and start them off on their 5 and 6 Year Old FEI Young Horse Tests. The BNT's seem to want to pick them up from there, not start them.

Hope that helps.

Oh, one more thing. Several people have said there are lots of people who start horses here. Maybe, but I don't want a hunter person starting a dressage horse. Nothing about hunters, but the contact and way of going are completely different. I do not believe in starting a horse one way and then saying to the horse, oh, by the way, what you learned really wasn't what I want you to do for the rest of your life, I really want you to go like this. Not fair to the horse. Their lifetime of training should be a refinement of the process, rather than changing methods along the way in how they're trained and how they're expected to move.

Good young event trainers may work to fill the bereiter gap. Where and who are they in the NoVa area?

[Home Again Farm]

Tiki, you spoke beautifully for me. I agree 100%. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Boss Hoss]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>She said she would need 6 to 8 horses in training, cost about $1000. per month each (45 to 50 horses per year for 2 months). Unfortunately, she just can't afford to take the chance of being able to find the horses to keep her financially secure. How many people would be willing to commit to a program for starting young horses? It is just so unknown. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, join the crowd. Our business plan is about the same as well, being self employed isnt as easy as just getting a job at big company. So soem say BNT costs are high, BNT says its what it costs just to profit like a plumber. No BMWs driven here.

BUT there is a seasonal problem when trying to provide a starting service even for a breeder. If you the breeder could "feed" me without doubt I might be willing to lower my bNT rate for financial stability. Right now I have 2 vacancies for a breeder for instance, or the open market. So I could be fed year round and be willing to take a lower rate to keep the cash flow consistent. But will you have stock to feed the bNT in the fall like this? technically I'd like to be working with the 2.75 yo right now and then send them home till the spring. This would allow for some rotation of the stock so everyone can get into the program if you a bog enough breeder.

So yes a breeder could provide a trainer with a consistent stock of young horses to stay employed. And there is a benefit to the trainer to take a smaller fee for this financial stability. You just have to find the bNT and suitable trainers that want to do the training as a passion like you do the breeding.

To make a million, start with 2 million and buy a horse!

[patch work farm]

This has been an incredible amount of information to read. What I have picked up throughout, are the differences between disciplines as well as our own personal preferences which complicate the entire process even more!

First of all, I still am on my bandwagon that Germany considers the horse business to be an industry, in the US it is not.

Secondly, there is a process in Europe that we do not have here, their trainers get "certified" ours do not. I have been asked numerous times why I won't train and although I have ridden for a number of years, compete actively and have qualified for year end awards, I don't feel that makes me qualified to do anything but ride my own horses. I may be eyes on the ground for someone, but to be compensated for it doesn't work for me.

Thirdly, based on the issue of specific discipline needs, I think it is something that should be addressed with USEA. Not just USDF (although the points quoted were very appropriate)and it seems EVERYONE feels we need trainers for our young horses. It would be great to get a system set up through the organization that we pump our $$ through every year.

As far as personal preferences, many people are comfortable sending their horses away to be trained. I start all of mine on my farm, that way I know what is being done, they are consistently being worked and the risk of injury (in my mind) is less. I have sent them off after their initial work has been completed if I feel there is a need. IMHO, there is only one opportunity to start a horse, if it does well the first time...onwards and upwards. If it is done incorrectly, then I consider it to be retraining and that is a much tougher situation and harder to "undo".

[Boss Hoss]

In the US, there is this perception that only "natural horseman" can start horses. Now it seems we have to go to Germany to find "english" cowboys?

I do think there is a decline in the abilities of "horseman" to be able to start their stock. The need for starters is becoming greater the more an more we get away from the everyday need for the horse for our existence.

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by patch work farm:

First of all, I still am on my bandwagon that Germany considers the horse business to be an industry, in the US it is not. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Boy, did you get THAT one correct. With the German chap that I was talking about ... at Devon? Yup, we talked about the "meat" aspect. You betcha, it's right there. And he admitted it. What do you expect with 8,000 foals born? And yes, that's the figure he gave me.

FYI, this is a highly respected individual, with pretty much impeccable credentials right across the board.

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Secondly, there is a process in Europe that we do not have here, their trainers get "certified" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, and just one more thing. To really put the cat among the pigeons.

What do our governing bodies think about this? (USDF & USEF)

Anyone? Anyone?

[Gold Dust]

Wait, I think I'm getting something finally. This seems to be more based on dressage and not H/J. I can give you that list of names but they are not dressage trainers. Did I get that right? Now I understand why people raised eyebrows at part sponsoring a dressage based in-hand show. I'm understanding that some cann't hire BNTs to break and start. Yes, I get that, and for the breeders, I truely do feel for you dilema. But, just a capable, hard working honest H/J person will you ever give an at least quick look? Seems like no to me. Basic good 'horsemanship' expecially with youngsters,should this have a discipline attatched to it?
Again, I'm not being sarcastic here. One reason why I do hate these boards in a way. You can not hear or feel emotions, not see facial expressions and no,emoticons are not the cure all http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif ] so it goes off what you think.

[Gold Dust]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Secondly, there is a process in Europe that we do not have here, their trainers get "certified" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, and just one more thing. To really put the cat among the pigeons.

What do our governing bodies think about this? (USDF & USEF)

Anyone? Anyone? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll jump right in the old hen house. Has good points and bad points. Who's telling George Morris he neeeds to take a test to see if he can be a trainer.

Come on people. Find some humor once in a while.

[Boss Hoss]

right...and who would be grading George Morriss' test but those with whom he have to compete as a BNT for the services right?

now imagine having a pro/amateur status determined by whether you past or failed that test, not based solely on whether the industry pays you for a service?

[Tiki]

Yay, Gold Dust (she says as she looks hopelessly for the clapping emoticon). I think you are now getting it.

There is a whole different way of going between the hunters and dressage horses. Hunters seem to go (now take it easy on my guys - I haven't done hunters for 45 years or so) in a more 'level' and longer frame with the neck about on the level of, or a little higher than, the withers. Hunters are also looking for absolutely steady and even rounds. The hunter hack is a very different horse from a training/1st level dressage horse. Dressage horses need to go on contact (appropriate for their age) from the first step, with the eventual more vertical neck and head carriage (again, age and muscular development related). If you ride the horse on minimal contact flatter carriage for a while, then ask them to change to a dressage carriage and way of going (dressage more elevated/animated - hunters with that flat-kneed movement) the horse will often say 'NO'. It uses different muscles, he/she has to essentially start all over again, and I don't think it's fair to the horse. Since eventer do dressage as part of their test, and since dressage is becoming more important to eventing, I think good event trainers might be a good way to start horses with all around training.

As far as hunters vs dressage goes, to me it seems kind of like saying, 'Well, both football and soccer are kicking games, so if I'm good at football, I should be good at soccer too, not?' Well, I think the answer is 'NO!.' I can certainly appreciate a good hunter round (and I can definitely appreciate a good hunter price), but that's not what I'm looking for. I don't think they cross over just because they're both horse sports.

[Gold Dust]

Thank-You Tiki, and to those who may think, this does not insult me. Just makes more clarification. So, the dressage world needs to move on this and in reading the other forums, certifications did not seem the cure all for that discipline!

So- for some, the need is 'Dressage starter needed'. Not just a starter. That, I can not help you or know of the many I did befor.

[patch work farm]

All anyone needs to do is go to Germany just once to realize the difference in how they truly run their horse industry. First of all the STATE pays the riders at the stallion testing sights, what does that say vs. the US?

The gentleman OMOM is referring to, I have known for many years and have been to his farm as well. As she said, he is very credible and knowledgable and not at all afraid to share information.

Gold Dust, this thread did originally start because of DAD related to dressage, but certainly I think all disciplines need to voice the same concerns. BTW, I have had h/j riders start my young horses too http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

[Gold Dust]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by patch work farm:
Gold Dust, this thread did originally start because of DAD related to dressage, but certainly I think all disciplines need to voice the same concerns. BTW, I have had h/j riders start my young horses too http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is true, but still, I had to think that I knew plenty of good competant pros that were masters at horsemanship and although not dressage based could still give your horse the great start they all need.

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Boss Hoss:
who would be grading George Morris's test <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And believe it or not, some people actually do not necessarily believe a BNT (i.e., GM) would be the best person to send their youngster to!

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by patch work farm:

The gentleman OMOM is referring to, I have known for many years and have been to his farm as well. As she said, he is very credible and knowledgable and not at all afraid to share information. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He absolutely blew me away. What a sweetheart! What a lovely family, lovely kids. Wonderful wonderful guy!

[MsHunter]

OK not to start world war III as I think we are all getting along quite well. I am not offended that the dressage types don't want the hunter types to start their horses. BUT......

I don't want a customer who wants me to have their horse ridden (on the bit), put in a frame, or being "collected", doing extensions or leg yielding in it's first 60 days u/s. OR SIT ON IT'S BACK.

SORRY.... Can we say "make one lame fast"?

Your talking about TRAINING.

I thought we were talking about starting.

Starting to me means:
Wear tack (saddle, bridle)

learn to lunge and/or long line.

Allow a rider to climb aboard and dismount successfully quietly while standing still.

Carry weight at the walk without contact or engagement.

Learn how to carry weight and walk in a straight line.

LEARN HOW TO STOP!!! (important for when trotting and cantering and getting into trouble LOL)

Simple transitions from walk/trot trot/walk.

medium trot.

Slight steering mechanism using direct rein
and lateral aides.

learning to move off the leg. (no spurs) or whips.

Cantering, leads, and canter departs.

After this a discipline can come into play and
a horse can depart on it's future destination LOL!

That at least is how our boot camp works.

The firs

[LLDM]

Well, I will disagree here. A good foundation is a good foundation. A young horse does not belong in a "frame" until it has been able to find its balance under the rider. (That doesn't mean the rider doesn't "help" the horse.) And while good hunters go in a longer frame they are not "on the forehand".

I do know excellent hunter, dressage and eventing trainers... and very poor ones too.

Now there is a huge difference between the first 50 - 100 rides and preparing a horse for some type of specific young horse classes.

This actually may be the meat of what we are talking about. Do you all (breeders and trainers) believe that a horse MUST have a rated show record in order to be sellable?

Because I will say right now that this is the single most cost prohibitive thing for me. In time, money, prep and having to pay dues to everyone and their brother.

SCFarm

[Timex]

mshunter has a great point. how far would you want a trainer to take your babies? we might very well be talking a wide range, from backed, and w/t to schooling 2nd level to jumping 2'6". what is YOUR idea of 'starting'? what would you expect a trainer to accomplish?

[LLDM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Timex:
mshunter has a great point. how far would you want a trainer to take your babies? we might very well be talking a wide range, from backed, and w/t to schooling 2nd level to jumping 2'6". what is YOUR idea of 'starting'? what would you expect a trainer to accomplish? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is precisely why I made the point a while back that we have no standards of training. We can't even hold a reasonable discussion about this stuff because we all use the terms differently.

To me:

Backed - I can sit on the horse and do an (unsteady) walk, trot and stop with out getting killed if I am a skilled, quiet rider.

Well Started - I can W/T/C quietly in the ring and in an open field if I am a competant rider.

Green - Ready to begin showing, or has just started showing in the lowest levels of a discipline. Needs a pro to show well. Started over fences in the hunters, started in a frame in dressage. Can be riden, but will not progress, under an average ami or junior. (Not to be confused with the "official green" of the rated hunter classes.)

Am I wacked in this assessment?

SCFarm

[Oldenburg Mom]

&lt;KT is sitting back enjoying this immensely. Isn't it great to get everyone together and just talk about this stuff. More than anything else, THIS, this open, frank discussion is what is needed. I just love it and this is what I was hoping for!&gt;

[Boss Hoss]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>This is precisely why I made the point a while back that we have no standards of training. We can't even hold a reasonable discussion about this stuff because we all use the terms differently. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well the good thing about horses started with the destination in mind being dressage is that there is a training scale established and even a lunging and dressage manual published. If the young horse is progressed into doing the training level tests then you do have a litmus test to go by. There's nothing overly compact and cranked about a training level frame. And a horse can go on to other disciplines from there. And certain horses make better hunters than dressage horses, and vica-versa.

The starting process is probably the one process that could be regulated as it really is a discipline nuetral process.

Why do dressage folks tend to send their stock off to "natural horseman" for starting than doing it themselves? if dressage is sucha good starting point, the seesnece of "training", why not actually start there?

I also agree that Eventers are less "ring minded" than a Dressage only trainer, so they ride out as often as possible. Variety is needed to break up the ring work for the youngster. I also agree the more I learn about Eventing the better horseman you have to be. So those that have commented on using Eventers to start their youngsters, have made a good point.

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MsHunter:
I don't want a customer who wants me to have their horse ridden (on the bit), put in a frame, or being "collected", doing extensions or leg yielding in it's first 60 days u/s. OR SIT ON IT'S BACK. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm. Ms. Hunter. I'm surprised you would say this! Wouldn't the equivalent in the h/j world be going over fences in the first 60 days? I don't know ...

I daresay there may very well be folks that would want that. But I don't believe they are on THIS board ... heck, these breeders'll barely let the little monsters out of their sight! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Gold Dust]

MSHunter- I knew someone was going to jump on that but not that quick!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I was thinking the same thing as some already said. Breaking a baby-step one. Try not get tossed too much until they know what that thing is on their back. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Starting- as been said, WTC steering, straight line etc. but never have I or anyone I know get on and start doing frame work either. Once this horse is started should it not begin to show its natural balance once a rider is on its back because I'm sure we can all agree, once that happens things can change big time. [to put it simple] No one is really off on theories. In the beginning stages of training could it be possible we are all too hung up on dressage,H/J,eventing trainers then maybe coming to a possible conclusion that a good horseman is a good horseman no matter what discipline they are in and in the beginning stages we all might be trying for the same goal??

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gold Dust:
MSHunter- I knew someone was going to jump on that but not that quick!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whaddya expect? I'm waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting for the IT guys to fix something. (I'm looking for the foot tapping icon ... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif guess these'll do instead!)

*sigh*

Did I mention that I was waiting for IT ... ahhhm LLDM, where are you when I need you?

[Gold Dust]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:
Hmmm. Ms. Hunter. I'm surprised you would say this! Wouldn't the equivalent in the h/j world be going over fences in the first 60 days? I don't know ...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif I'm not speaking for anyone else here but not sure this is a common practice OM.

[Home Again Farm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> In the beginning stages of training could it be possible we are all too hung up on dressage,H/J,eventing trainers then maybe coming to a possible conclusion that a good horseman is a good horseman no matter what discipline they are in and in the beginning stages we all might be trying for the same goal??
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I still agree with Tiki that a trainer who has been trained along the same lines as a Bereiter has (and they certainly don't have to hold the Bereiter's certificate for them to know the same principles of training), where the training for any young horse is based on a dressage training scale, will have a somewhat different approach to contact and balance. I am NOT saying that they will force a horse into a frame from the very beginning. Not at all. But I have seen the difference between what I think of as the average hunter trainer's approach with a youngster and a more European approach, and for my own purposes, I will go with the second.

There are not many differences. But there are some and for me they are important ones.

Please no flames. I am not saying that anyone is wrong, but just that there are differences that are important to the training of my youngsters who are for the most part aimed toward dressage.

[nycjumper]

Chiming in late but the other thing to factor in is who your target audience is & what type of costs they can bear.

Hanging out on the breeding forum has opened my eyes a lot about the costs incurred. However, as an adult amateur, there is a finite amount of money I can/will spend on a horse and I think that's true of a lot of ammies. Plus, once we buy, we're still going to have to pay for training/board/etc.

So while the breeder needs to make money, a lot of buyers want to stick to a budget. How do we get the two together?

[GriffinDressage]

Home Again, I agree, there are big differences. I used to work at a large breeding farm as a in-house young horse trainer. We had a system that you used on every horse down to the lunging, in hand work, etc. BEFORE the horse was even backed. The owner would bring in young horse trainers from Germany that specialized in different areas (lunging, in-hand, riding, even vaulting - for the rider's balance) to train us and get us working in a good system. Let me tell you, before that I never knew what goes into the basic ground work! It is certainly different than anything I have come across here. We were preparing some of the horses for the four year old futurities so they had to be able to be consistantly through, engaged, etc. Enough to average mid 70's their first year in the ring. And all of the youngsters were taken out on the trail and in the field, I even out rode for a driving event on one of my three year olds! I guess what I am saying is that the basic education that a horse gets in Germany IS dressage, then they go on to whatever disapline - this does not negate the versatility of the horse or mean that they dont go out in the field. The basic education a horse gets here (not talking of anyone on this board - more of personal experiences around my area) is to grudgingly accept a human on their back and not try to not get bucked off too often. What my old trainer would lovingly call "any warm body". Most people I have talked to here do not understand the need for a cohesive system, it makes it so frustrating as a trainer because they just want you to get on up there and ride it out not even knowing what preparation the horse has had (normally not much). I finally gave up on training other peoples horses and just work my own and a few select students for just that reason. Why take all the time to learn the right way to do thing when people can just get the college student down the road to do it cheaper? It's just getting up on a horse, right?

[Lucille]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nycjumper:
Chiming in late but the other thing to factor in is who your target audience is & what type of costs they can bear.

Hanging out on the breeding forum has opened my eyes a lot about the costs incurred. However, as an adult amateur, there is a finite amount of money I can/will spend on a horse and I think that's true of a lot of ammies. Plus, once we buy, we're still going to have to pay for training/board/etc.

So while the breeder needs to make money, a lot of buyers want to stick to a budget. How do we get the two together? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


That is the $1,000,000 question. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Boss Hoss]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>We had a system that you used on every horse down to the lunging, in hand work, etc. BEFORE the horse was even backed. The owner would bring in young horse trainers from Germany that specialized in different areas (lunging, in-hand, riding, even vaulting - for the rider's balance) to train us and get us working in a good system. Let me tell you, before that I never knew what goes into the basic ground work! It is certainly different than anything I have come across here. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you aren't exposed to this process enough to build up your confidence, then don't "dabble" in it either. We have youngsters "started" prior to coming to us for more BNT training on occassion. let me say this..we have found on several occassions no reason to feel the horse was even ready to be backed..just by picking up the leadrope. On one occassion we found out through the horse that it had been started poorly, the horse just kept crying on my shoulder and later the owner finally admitted to what had happened.

In these situations we have to go back to square one (ground zero in some cases) and come back through the training scale until we find the first major hole in the education, and THAT's where we start in.

So to the person who is on a budget trying to buy a "started" horse, and doesn't have the experience to bring along an u/s 90 day'er..what would you pay to have the first year done CORRECTLY versus struggling for more than a year trying to get that good start?

[Silly Mommy]

This may have been adressed, but I disagree wholeheartedly with Tiki on this:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Oh, one more thing. Several people have said there are lots of people who start horses here. Maybe, but I don't want a hunter person starting a dressage horse. <span class="ev_code_PURPLE">That's fine, but your predjudice is showing - some hunter riders do have a solid dressage background.</span>Nothing about hunters, but the contact and way of going are completely different. <span class="ev_code_PURPLE">Not when you're starting them.</span> I do not believe in starting a horse one way and then saying to the horse, oh, by the way, what you learned really wasn't what I want you to do for the rest of your life, I really want you to go like this. Not fair to the horse. Their lifetime of training should be a refinement of the process, rather than changing methods along the way in how they're trained and how they're expected to move.<span class="ev_code_PURPLE">Ahhh, but they're going to move the way that is natural for them anyway, and I don't know a single trainer (hunter or otherwise) that can make a difference with mother nature.</span>
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hunter Princess that I am, none of my horses jump until they are balanced front to back and respond to lateral aids as well. The finished product may look like it is on the buckle, but it has learned self carriage at this point (hopefully) (and we are talking about starting here), but if you can't get them to move laterally, how do you expect them to go straight? Real trainers, no matter what discipline (and I am including the western folk as well) all instill some form of basic dressage in youngsters. When I was younger, I had a whole slew of track horses to break because the trainers at the track were impressed at what they got back - can you see racing a horse that doesn't respond to weight aids? Well, I guess they saw alot of them.

[GriffinDressage]

Boss Hoss,
Not sure if you were agreeing with me or not? I was trying to say that I dont see many trainers here with a system that works through the training scale without skipping anything -like you said. Alot of owners that I have come across dont want to take the time to do it correctly the first time out and would seem to rather have to go back and fix it later??? Or send them out to a cowboy to "ride it out"??? I just don't get it.

[Boss Hoss]

Honestly, it still comes down to an owners "budget" whether its the breeder or the amateur owner who now needs the same service. if you call me up and say i only have enough $ for 60 days, I'll tell you I can put 60 days on the horse yes. The problem is..where will the horse be at day 60, and can YOU then take over? Instead I'd rather have an owner say they are committed to training the horse until they can take over. Now you may think the average BNT will suck you, the owner, dry..some do yes. However my reputation also requires that I can get you on your horse in a reasonable amount of time. The key is working on the horse's time schedule, not the owners. Some horses I have the owners w/t/c in 6 weeks, some it takes 6 months. Its a function of BOTH horse and rider. Once i get the horse right, THEN i have to deal with the owner. You will w/t/c your horse before it leaves my farm, but only if you allow for the process to happen correctly.

I learned the hard way that when you train by the owners schedule, you end up looking at your calendar, and looking for shortcuts to give the owner a finished product in 60 days. See they say "I can send charley to so-n-so who will have the horse w-t-c in 30 days". Go ahaead I say..but will you be riding that horse in 3 months when he wakes up and realizes what just happened and has something to say about this process.

You hope that the rideability factor of the breeders stock allows you to provide a consistent product in a consistent time frame. This still involves a bellcurve with some stock not being finished in a set period. The breeder can say my budget is $$$, the horse says his education requires $$$$ .. so do you stick through it, or cut out becuase of a budget?

Breeding is like Dairy (which I have 4 years experience in)..you do it because you love it, not because you get to drive BMWs and take vacations to remote locations. And the stallion side is not necessarily all profit either.

[Khamian Farms]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Home Again Farm:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>if it costs you $5K to get a mare in foal - do not expect to recoup that through her foal. Get a mare that is more fertile - and spend $5K on the back end for training to make the finished product salable. It is simply poor business on the part of mare owners to be spending 4 and 5 digits before the foal is even on the ground - and then expect the market to absorb that expense.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Julie,

I don't know how long you have been breeding or how closely you have read threads on this forum this last season, but your statement above makes me wonder. I visited your website. You have lovely ponies. I wonder if you do live cover? If so, your expenses will not be similar to mine, especially if you use your own stallion with your mares.

I had simply astronomical costs this past season. My mares are normally extremely fertile and have always caught on first cycles in past years, often with frozen semen. This year nothing seemed to work. Diagnostic work has NOT turned up any problems, so I must chalk it up to the fact that every once in a while breeders WILL have years like this. If I had had my crystal ball working, I would have stopped my attempts sooner and saved money. Unfortunately, it wasn't working this year. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Even in a good year with quick, successful breedings, my costs are high. I have expensive mares. I use stallions that are expensive. I do not cut corners on vet work (which is one reason that my mares USUALLY get pregnant on first cycles). By the time I have a foal on the ground it will have cost me at least $8K. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Mary Lou,

Wonder all you want - how long I have been breeding or reading the forum is not relevent. That is not the point. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

You seem very realistic about your costs. Now, with having a bad year - your normal cost is $8K (and you sell for $12K to $14K) - if those costs are higher because of bad luck - you do not think now that the foals coming are going to sell for $25K simply because they cost you $18K to produce. Some breeders seem bitter that it doesn't work that way.

That was my point, the market will not bear the cost of breeders decisions to "do all it takes". Seems many people producing foals are not looking at the market, and taking those costs into account. It seems many of you are saying the market wants a well started 5 year old, and then in the same breath you are saying you can't deliver that well started 5 year old for a price that the market will bear, because you can't afford the training.

I breed my own ponies live cover - however I stand my stallion to outside mares. I have seen mare owners spend thousands to get the mare in foal, and thousands more on regumate and multiple sonograms during the gestation. For a couple thousand more, they could just go buy a foal or yearling by my stallion already on the ground and have a sure thing.

Ponies/Warmbloods - same basic principle - compare cost in to cost out - if cost to produce exceeds the final sale price - not good business practice. I have the luxury of having ponies that are not expensive to keep, and the ability to train them at home (though that ability is completely dependent on child labor http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif). Thinking ahead - I have not bred any of my small mares this year, they are for sale - this is because the resulting foals from my small mares will be ready to ride when my daughter is 15 or 16 years old - obviously, I don't need to be producing ponies that will mature 12 hands at this point.

Julie
www.caspianpony.com (http://www.caspianpony.com)

[Oldenburg Mom]

Before we get too off track here, with costs and a lot of discussion about whether 'dressage' is the correct way to start or not, etc. etc. Let me throw this out for consideration.

It appears that we actually might have enough ground-level (grass roots) support to petition both the USDF and USEF ... and the new "hunter/jumper-USDF-equivalent" to work together to come up with some sort of standards.

I do not think this is as far-fetched as it sounds. Petitioning a governing body is a fairly typical way to get some attention focused on what the members feel is a topic that sorely needs to be addressed.

We have had some exceptional—I believe—conversation on this topic. And actually, I thought last evening we were starting to become a little more articulate about identifying exactly what the problem is.

Again, picking up on what LLDM said:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> quote:
---------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Timex:
mshunter has a great point. how far would you want a trainer to take your babies? we might very well be talking a wide range, from backed, and w/t to schooling 2nd level to jumping 2'6". what is YOUR idea of 'starting'? what would you expect a trainer to accomplish?
---------------------------------------------------------------


This is precisely why I made the point a while back that we have no standards of training. We can't even hold a reasonable discussion about this stuff because we all use the terms differently.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this is a legitimate remark, and I would hope everyone would at least agree on this. We have some great minds on this board, some very articulate and forward-thinking folks. Can we use these talents to make a difference,... or will be still be having the same discussion after next year's Devon?

Comments? Suggestions? Thoughts?

[Gold Dust]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:

It appears that we actually might have enough ground-level (grass roots) support to petition both the USDF and USEF ... and the new "hunter/jumper-USDF-equivalent" to work together to come up with some sort of standards.

Comments? Suggestions? Thoughts? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK I'll bite at this one too! Point one-Can these two work together to come up with a format that both agree to? Just from this little thread look at the difference in opinion.
Point two-Is it not a good thing that no one has to follow a beat to a same drummer and the consumer has a choice?

To make a drastic comparison,if you tell trainer one that all training must follow a format of trainer two good lord I can hear the screams now! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Remember, I said drastic comparison.
The same joke I made earlier about having GM tested and BossHoss stated yes, and who will actually grade that test. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

I read over at the dressage forum that they have had trainer certification program for 10 years now. Although I am not up to speed on that I'm thinking it is not mandatory and many capable trainer are operating without ones and some even felt some that do have this certificate are not all that capable but I am not involved enough with the USDF to really comment enough on this subject. Anyone want to help me out here?
The USEF and now affiliate USHJA have enough on the old plates right now. Read any thread over at H/J and I'm thinking this may not be something they can put on that huge plate they have already.

BTW-I agree Silly Mommy, great post. And again, does not make Tiki wrong, that is her preferance and at this time the consumer has a choice. Thank god everyone has that choice to hire someone that does it the way they think is the way they would like to have a horse/pony started. Am I thinking like anyone else here? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[LLDM]

OMom - You make a great moderater (as in debate, not BB)! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The reason I brought up the distinctions between backed, well started and green was to illistrate the point that they represent very different levels of training in a young horse. I believe there is great confusion in the market about these levels of training in a young horse. A quality green horse should command more than a backed horse of the same quality, because it does indeed directly benefit the buyer.

The problem I see is that because there are no standards, the value of this training is not always realized when it should be. Too many buyers think that they can ride a just backed horse. And while they might, it usually isn't pretty.

Just like breeders, trainers need to do their part in making sure the investment of training adds a reasonable level of value to the horse. By this I mean that trainers need to help us, and the market, differentiate more clearly the levels of training and their value.

To Boss Hoss and GriffinDressage - Most quality breeders want the very best training on their youngsters they can get. But there is not much confidence that this investment will be realized or appreciated by the consumers. This puts us in a hole.

We must get to a position in this country where I can advertise a horse as "well started" and the buyers and trainers who advise them know what this means in a tangible way. Trainers must be able to tell breeders with some accuracy were their horse is at the beginning, in the middle and at the end of training and set realistic expectations. Not that they don't, but we don't have the common understandings to make this clear.

If I can come to a trainer and say: this horse is "well started" the trainer should (hopefully) be able to believe me and know just what that means. Then we can have a reasonable conversation - based on the quality of that horse, whether is it worth the investment to get that horse to "green".

If I put another 6K in training into a horse in order to make it more appealing to the market, I need to know that I have a reasonable chance of getting that investment back. That this horse will return the investment. No, I can't put 6K on a horse that will only bring 12 or 13K on his best day.

Honestly, what bothers me is that many trainers insist on treating breeder like owners, rather than fellow professionals. Now I know that not all breeders are (nor act) like professionals. But we all need to be real with each other and not pussyfoot around if we are to make this work.

I will bring up Germany one more time. I agree with Boss Hoss and GriffinDressage that most people have no business trying to start their own and/or not doing the proper basic work. The berieter program works by using "low cost" young riders working under the direction of professionals. This is precisely what I do. My trainer pronounced me "worthy" of being that "low cost" young (HAH!) rider based on the condition and ground training of my youngsters. She is the one with the plan (I am still learning) and gives me the goals and methods for each individual horse. If I am not on track she knows!

Is this not the model we want? Young riders working under real professionals constantly? It has the added benefit of producing young riders that will be competitive with Europe. And isn't this what we often get when we send a horse to a BNT for big bucks anyway? Whether or not it is understood?

Now, if we can put some sort of structured, commonly accepted program around this we get: 1) Well trained young horses, 2) Really well trained young riders, 3) a system that is more efficient and understandable.

Now I don't think I am the one to take a horse from "well started" to "green' in a particular discipline. I do believe in discipline specific Pros (or advanced riders) for that. But only if that horse is good enough to be truely competitive in a discipline and thus will return the investment. If not it needs to go to a buyer without high level expectations.

IMHO

SCFarm

[frugalannie]

Another eventer poking her nose into the discussion...

I wish I had the time to read this entire thread, but I admit to just skimming. As a result I may be repeating points already made: if so, please forgive me.

I'm an eventer who breeds a little. I back and train my own babies, and usually sell them on at three or four. I don't think I'm the bee's knees: I have a lot to learn, and every horse I work with teaches me something new. But I do think I'm an effective horsewoman, and that my babies are sane and willing. I'm 52, and have capacity to work with other youngsters, which I've done on a limited basis for cost. I have two instructors that I work with regularly, and I periodically will have them review where I am with the babies to keep me on track.

What would it take for someone like me to want to work with more young stock?

1. Really good insurance. I'm pretty confident that the ones I raise aren't going to be overly stupid, but the ones that haven't been handled well or have gone through a few failed training programs are just too scary.

2. A candidate youngster that has been nicely handled since birth, respects humans but trusts them.

3. A MENTOR WHO CAN GUIDE ME!!! This is where the USDF and other organizations could be of assistance, in my view. I use my dressage instructor, and I noted that someone else described training their baby using once or twice weekly lessons with a local training whiz. If the USDF (for example) would identify people willing and qualified to mentor "backyard trainers" (for lack of a better term), then folks like me could work under their guidance. The result would be that breeders and buyers would be more confident about the quality of the outcome and the experience for the horse.

One other comment: I know we (I include myself) breeders have a goal in mind when we breed a horse: it will be a jumper or a hunter or a dressage star, eg. And generally, heritage will produce the result desired. But I don't think I'd start any baby on a specific track until it showed me what it wanted to do, perhaps during, but probably after, basic work had been completed. Maybe this is why we eventers are a little different: we expose them to everything and let them guide us as to their strengths and weaknesses.

OM, you rock. Thanks for sheparding this interesting discussion.

[LLDM]

GD - Standards of training is not the same thing as standards for training. Just like horse shows, the results can be judged, not the technique.

As for the USDF program - if you read my comments you will see that I have (in my limited experience) a real positive difference between the quality of certified versus non-certified USDF trainers. And I am taking young horses to these people. I believe I said they had a deeper understanding. Just because there are dressage trainers that don't believe in the program or that want to subject themselves to the standards of their governing body, doesn't mean the program isn't making a difference. We have to start somewhere and I am seeing progress here.

I think we all acknowledge GM's command of his subject matter. I'll give him a by on the certs and ask him nicely to grade the tests! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

SFCarm

[Home Again Farm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> That was my point, the market will not bear the cost of breeders decisions to "do all it takes". Seems many people producing foals are not looking at the market, and taking those costs into account. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Julie,

I misinterpreted your remarks. I read them to say that anyone with high breeding costs was being unbusinesslike. My mistake. I am sorry.

I look at foal crops over years of time. Some go well, costs stay under control, babies hit the ground, healthy, with presence, that sell themselves. On the other hand, sometimes things can go the other way. I have a filly this year that was orphaned when her surrogate Mom decided that killing her might be fun. Then the baby got pneumonia, colstridia and ended up in intensive care. When you add her post foaling expense to the embryo transfer costs I had invested in her, she is my latest "million dollar baby". I do not expect to recoup those costs -- until and unless she goes on to perform beautifully in the ring, be enrolled in the Hanoverian marebook and prove herself in every possible way. At that point she will be an expensive horse, but one's whose expense is justified by demand. I'll keep investing in her until I feel it is a lost cause. Right now I am betting on seeing her go all the way. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

I had one baby develop in such a way that I just had to cut my losses. One would have never expected it from the bloodlines or performance of the parents, or the health at birth. It just happened, despite all the care, planning, work and worry. Youngsters like that need to go at a loss to wherever they have a chance of fulfilling their limited potential -- whether that is as a trail horse, companion horse or pasture pet. The most important thing with them is for them to be treated well and loved.

Sorry to take this off course, but I did want to clarify my mistake, and my reasoning regarding the ones that cost way more than they should to produce. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Gold Dust]

LLDM and everyone-let's try this. Full knowing I am about to open the gates of hell so am in full body armour as I type. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Has anyone stopped to think we are all just being a little too hard on ourselves? Breeders have developed a way of operating and so have trainers. We are all doing the best we possibly can. Offering services the best way we know how at point one. Yes, in time we learn new and different things on a daily basis but buisness structure and way of operating is just how it is at this time.
Breeders are bringing the best quality foals that buisness, mother nature, and a little luck they possibly can. Cost is cost and that must reflect your sales price. Take it or leave it right.
Trainers are training the best way they know how. There is not one trainer out there and they never had one client leave them because of methods and some come to them because of methods. Here we are, and we are what we are.
Neither one of us can keep everyone happy but both are doing the best we can. The consumer can come to us or not. That simple.

I have read many a time that some breeders won't sell to someone because they do not feel the horse will do well with said buyer. Europe has us beat by a mile because this is not a common practice I am told and not sure how factual that is. Buisness is buisness.
Trainers get trashed on a daily basis. The true buisness man takes his lickins and goes out to start another day.

Neither one of us can save the world. Yes, I have gone to the cold hearted extreme here because we all know both breeder and trainer do try to work with all clients and not with such a rough approach. Yes, I know-repeat customers,remember, I went over the top here so bear with me. We all want the repeat customers but can not sell our souls to the devil for this nor go bankrupt.
So, it comes down to breeders and trainers with integrity and true skill that rise to the top. Trainers notice this in breeders and vice-versa. Also,you do not have to be a large scale breeder or a BNT. The 'little guy' will also rise to the top. I think we can, will and do for the most part, get along. What do you think?

Security guards have just arrived so I may now hit reply! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Oldenburg Mom]

Wait. I'm not sure I understand, GD.

If I read you correctly, what you're suggesting is the status quo?

[Gold Dust]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:
Wait. I'm not sure I understand, GD.

If I read you correctly, what you're suggesting is the status quo? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not status quo per say. But, at this time, being there is no criteria as LLDM has been pointing out so perfectly we are all just trying to operate by means that professionals feel is best, breeders, trainers, starters and all other professionals that make up the working team. Each with their own style and take on this 'finished product' we are trying to produce. We all need each other.
Maybe someday, guidlines will be formed, price sheets to follow but until then here we are. Any breeder I think will tell you that once all is said and done and mother nature places this little baby in the barn each one is different in ALL ways. Behavior, movement, heart so they are doing the best they can. What its re-sale is, is different every time and what money has gone into that, so, price reflection. what more can any of us ask of them?
Same as starting and training. As BossHoss has said, these living breathing things have something to say about this so again, we're doing the best we can. Trying to do our best to increase value or rideability.
Having said that, there can never be a set price scale. What do we think?
I'll bet each and every one of us go to bed at night worried about some aspect of what the day will bring tomorrow and how can this work for all. Breeders and trainers alike can be pulled is so many directions, it hurts. I do feel for breeders and I'm sure breeders feel for us. We both know how hard it is in our own kind of way. Again, my point, just doing the best we can AT THIS POINT.
What the future will hold? I have no idea! If you put a huge room full of us together right now to hash this out, I'm thinking we're safer on the computer right now. [find the humor again folks]

[Oldenburg Mom]

GD—

Well, you do have a point, because we are stuck with the status quo until WE change it.

Waiting for the powers that be to get off their duffs and do something may be a pretty long wait. Personally, I believe if enough people want change it will happen.

This has been a rather articulate and broad-based discussion; I believe there are enough folks, especially breeders, that need to see some sort of movement, whether in the private sector or by our governing bodies.

The future, like ourselves, is what we make of it.

[patch work farm]

OMOM, you are right, WE need to do something to effect the change (if one can be made based on what GD just said).

Through this discussion, we have hashed out things like:
-what is backed vs. started (which I have a vastly different opinion on that the individual who described it) vs. green.
-proper trainers for breaking dressage prospects (I have had jockeys, h/j and dressage trainers break my youngsters...all comes down to who is in my area, who is available at the time I have the need, $$, etc.)
-the cost of breeding, including those unexpected disasters that EVERY breeder will experience at some time (some of us sooner rather than later)...

There is no RIGHT answer and never will be unless an organized body can assist in helping to determine a set of GUIDELINES (remember, no one will abide by RULES set out). I think the one thing someone mentioned is the "integrity" factor, that is something that is within each individual and NOT somethat that can be developed through any organization. One reason my youngsters are started on my farm is so I know what is being done with them (see the dressage forum about tying a head to a tail http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif). I have seen/known many individuals who boasted about "training" someones horses and all they did was take $$ and never touch them.

Every bit of this makes it VERY difficult for us as breeders to continue to produce quality foals and hope they don't end up wasting away in someone's back yard never mind "thinking" we might break even or hah, dream that we might make some money on the sale...

HOW do we begin the process??

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by patch work farm:

HOW do we begin the process?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I would like to see this brought, formally, to the attention of the USEF, USDF & USHJF (is that right? I just guessed.)

That means a written document, petitioning these organizations, of which we are all members-and are required to PAY for that privilege, regardless of their responsiveness to our needs. I think we have many more supporters in high places, especially on the USDF side, that we think.

And I think, and yes, I would be willing to go (ack!) that the organizations need to be lobbied at their respective national conventions. All of which are coming up.

Heck, we need to start with plain ol' standards of speech (thanks LLDM!) The longest journey begins with a single step. Maybe this forum can help make that single step ... ?

LLDM, GD, Silly Mommy, Griffin, Boss Hos, Khamian,... and anyone else. A simple request that the issue be studied by the various groups, with a report next year would be a great place to start.

Folks, this WILL be tediously slow, cumbersome, wrench-your-teeth-out-with-pliers frustrating. And gee, if someone has a better idea, please SPEAK UP!

[Tiki]

Well, part of the problem is also the different vocabulary. I'm the one who said something about taking http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif (horrors) contact on a youngster. How on earth did that get translated into cranking a baby into a frame????

MsHunter replied with something about how she starts youngsters and mentioned 'medium trot'. My initial response was, EGADS!! medium trot on a baby???? You don't do that in dressage until second level, test 1. I don't think she must mean the same kind of medium trot that I do at all. We have to remember that we use the same words to describe different things in different disciplines.

I say they have different ways of going as I have sat on what were supposedly well trained hunter style horses, and if you put your legs on them (just put them on with light contact - I said NOTHING about kicking or spurring) the horse will almost jump out from under you. If you pick up the reins, they will stop. It's just a different way of going. Again, I have nothing against a good hunter, that's just not what I ride or breed. I could say the same for western. It's just not my thing, but I've met some very fine western riders.

[ise@ssl]

I wish I could be optomistic that the "organizations" will help build the infrastructure to provide the training base we need - but I just can't be. We are "organizated to death" here in the USA. And now with this new H/J thingy - more costs.

Our equestrian programs in colleges and Universities are NOT aimed at Dressage - they are aimed at Hunter/Jumpers. It's so so so sad that they cannot see that the basics of dressage training MAKE better Hunter/Jumpers. And let's not be coy here - the Germans at first laughed about our Hunter market and now they have smelled the sweet aroma of MONEY in this discipline and are marketing the well started Warmbloods with quiet dispositions for major money to OUR RIDERS HERE.

Too often I've seen a serious lack of respect on the part of younger riders to take instruction from a senior trainer! OH YES. Even at clinics with reputable people they will argue and object. You really don't see much of that in Europe. They do what they are told, learn from those who have the knowledge and experience (and who may not even ride anymore) and put the time in to learn the system. They are EMPLOYABLE. Many of our Young Riders's and graduates of Equine programs ARE NOT EMPLOYABLE. They may be able to ride their own horses well and know some biology, etc. but they can't walk into a barn and pull any horse out of the stall and RIDE IT!

The Europeans also require people to qualify up the levels. Even in lower levels of Dressage - JUMPING is required as well!! Now - what reduction of entries would we see here if riders had to QUALIFY to move up each level. We seem to structure our training/competition around SHOWING. We would rather have large shows with lots of entries - many of whom shouldn't be there for financial reasons as opposed to smaller shows with the BEST riders/horses.

I would love to see a change in the training here and see respect and recognition for those trainers who really DO KNOW how to properly lay the foundation on a young horse under saddle. But from whom will this come?? Our U.S. this and U.S. that with LAYERS AND LAYER OF ADMINISTRATION THAT'S COSTING US A FORTUNE. And to boot - we still don't have a ONE HORSE ONE NUMBER SYSTEM FOR THIS COUNTRY!!!

We've been pretty savy about figuring out how to breed horses as well as Europe but we seem very reluctant to address the training and Young Rider programs. The Europeans have been pretty savy at figuring this out and will pick off buyers anyway they can given these weaknesses.

For my money - adding a "farm labor apartment" on my farm and flying over someone from Germany seems to be not only cheaper but more cost effective if I keep on putting horses and sportponies on the ground here.

And the word TRAINER - what does that mean in this country?? Anyone can put this title on their farm sign, stationary or business cards - with no qualifications. With no horse ID system that's reliable you have to believe the horses they mention really competed as well as they claim. Who knows? This is a big country. I cannot check on a horse that someone says they trained and it competed out west. BUT - I can check on a horse in Europe and see where it competed/who rode and how well it performed. So checking on horses a trainer has trained is easy.

[LLDM]

Well first I want to say that I think this is a great thread. I have learned a lot. There are two things here we can do.

The first is to do just what we are doing - have productive dialogs. It serves the purpose of increasing the understanding between breeders and trainers and helps us (individually) learn how to evaluate each other. Maybe we will understand each others issues in a better context, become less defensive, or offended, when we hear things like "how do we get our youngsters started" and know it doesn't mean we (breeders) feel that there are no competent trainers, just that we are struggling with the economics of it.

The second is to support each others efforts, both now and in the future. If we can get some things like standards or "bereiter type" programs put on the table with the powers that be, support them. That doesn't mean embrace them. That means provide reasonable, productive input and not dismiss them out of hand.

GD - This may not work. We may not be able to sustain a high end breeding industy in the US. It will not work if we sit still. No, it won't happen overnight. But many breeders rely more and more on Europe. They buy horses over there and leave to be started over there, importing them when are trained. We now have a significant number of US owned horses standing at stud, being bred raised and trained in Europe. I've half thought of breeding QH's and working out a trade for WB's, as in ship over reiners, ship back dressage horses.

FrugalAnnie - You ARE BRILLIANT! Mentors! Exactly! Perfect!

Patchwork - I know my definitions of levels of training are not standard. I would love to hear yours. I just had to come up with something for my own horses so I could manage things in some organized way without giving myself a headache. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I agree that we need to have some guidelines and common terminology from some legitimate and authoritative source. I don't care what the terms and difinitions are, as long as we have a common reference point. If we can steal them from the Germans, the British or the International Assoc. of Zebra Keepers, so much the better. It'll save time.

SCFarm

[ise@ssl]

I'll tell you one other little problem in this country. And it isn't just in the ability to train young riders as trainers it's in many other disciplines. You CANNOT have protege's anymore. In music and several other areas many young people would study under people, live with them, work with them. Now you have to pay them something, pay taxes and carry various payroll insurances (if you can get them).

Don't believe me!! It's true! A super farm existed in Delaware - they took area kids who had no money and gave them the opportunity to work around the horses and learn to ride and have some responsbility. The place was run on a shoe string to keep as many kids involved as possible. In steps the state of Delaware and DEMANDS payment of back un-employment and some other taxes. Almost put the place in bankrupcy and WORSE they had to reduce the "workstudents" to just about nothing. Thereby eliminating this wonderful opportunity for dis-advantaged or low income kids.

With riders it's the same. It's very hard to get insurances for Agriculural activities - I know I tried - especially with respect to disability coverage. Unless these people are working as "independent contractors" - you are not only into a money expense you are into filing forms up the whazzoo forever.

[Oldenburg Mom]

As we all know there will be lurkers on this thread, many, indeed, of the very organizations we have named. I find it hard to believe that they do not know what the "great unwashed" is about to raise it's ugly head.

Be that as it may.

The 2004 USDF National Convention & Symposium is November 30—December 5.

The symposium will feature Christop Hess, Steffen Peters, Anne Gribbons and Scott Hassler.

The topic:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The Development of the Dressage Horse. The breeding, selection, training and development of the dressage horse from birth to advanced levels.

Plus: Scott Hassler is going to chair a Panel discussion: "Marketing—The Missing Link in the US Sport Horse Industry. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Taken from Equestrian Magazine, page 78.

This topic is very much on a LOT of people's minds.

May I suggest that we start with an open letter to the USEF, USDF and the USHJF (What is it called????)doing nothing more than outlining/expressing the concerns of the US sport horse breeding community.

We may not be able to agree on the finer points, but we sure as heck can agree there is a problem, breeders are aware of it, and our governing organizations—WHICH REPRESENT US— need to help address some of the issues.

[Gold Dust]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by patch work farm:
HOW do we begin the process?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is a question within itself? What process?
Is it the terms we all use so differently? You are correct, the hunter frame and dressage frame are two different things. Do we have the federations put this into a standard form for us?

Will breeders and trainers still be able to make a living if we re-vamp the entire system? What would you take to the USEF as a proposal? What do you want from them? This is what they will ask?

Breeders sell foals and if not sold by foals they may need training and the price reflects that? right? So, breeders cann't change that. I have no idea how much Vet bills that breeder gathered to get that Mare in foal and I have no right to assume otherwise. I go, I see, I listen to the price. If I or my client can not pay that price, we look for something within our means.

Trainers can not train and in the long run not make a living either. These can range from anywhere to $30.00 to $100.00 per ride. Remember, we're talking BNT verses not as well known. So, you have your choice here. Who can regulate these fees either? You look for something within your means.

Trainers and breeders getting together and working together. Should this not be done without the USEF getting involved in that too. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif Again, what are we regulating here. This is professionals getting together one on one. Not via this bb [but it's a start http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif]. Let's do things the old fashioned way, pick up the phone or stop in for a visit maybe? Why cann't a trainer regulate his own fees to help a fellow professional?

Future owners, get to know what this takes to get that foal on the ground and know all training costs and if you can not do this yourselves then be prepared to investigate costs within your means. It's not all breeders and trainers faults things did not go your way sometimes.
People that think buying and selling horses is a means for some extra cash. Ha, I think this thread just killed that notion. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

How much do we want these federations [USEF,USDA etc.] Involved I ask all professionals? I'm thinking breeders and trainers can do this together, without the help of the organizations.
Like this horse industry, this thread has evolved into about 20 different things. Did I take these lasts posts wrong about the federations?
If anything, maybe one new up and coming trainer has read this, contacted some breeder and a deal has been made to help them both out. This had to do some good for someone somewhere I hope!

[frugalannie]

Aww shucks, LLDM, (I'm blushing!).

I think you're on to something with widely accepted definitions for commonly used stages in training. Yes, I know the dressage classics have it all defined, but I don't know that it reflects a broader range of disciplines and, for lack of a better term, the "American experience" not to mention lexicon. You are so practical! This would be incredibly useful to all of us, I think.

I'm going to be tied up for a few days, but I'll be looking for this thread when I return to see where the discussion has gone.

[LLDM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:
This topic is very much on a LOT of people's minds.

May I suggest that we start with an open letter to the USEF, USDF and the USHJF (What is it called????)__doing nothing more than outlining/expressing the concerns of the US sport horse breeding community.__

We may not be able to agree on the finer points, but we sure as heck can agree there is a problem, breeders are aware of it, and our governing organizations—WHICH REPRESENT US— need to help address some of the issues. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OMom - I think this is the perfect start. We know that David O'Conner responded to ONE person who wrote that lovely open letter about the USEF cleaning house on the drug issues before it went after the mass media market. That letter definitely got ATTENTION!

My guess is that it would say we need to close the gap between producing a well bred horse in the US to getting it into the competition ring (which is the main source of income for the USEF, USDF, USEA and the new USHJA).

I think we have some agreement that a common vocabulary and some basic guidelines to accurately describe a young horses training would be useful. It would facilitate the marketing of all young horses, making comparison shopping easier. It would make it easier to communicate between trainers, breeders, and buyers/owners both within and between disciplines. And it would make it easier for all of us to set and meet expectations (in negotiating/explaining training costs, reasonable investment levels and bugeting).

GD - I don't believe that guidelines and standards are the same as regulating. I just want to be able to call you as a trainer and say, this horse is well started, I want to get it to green. Then (if I am honest, and you will know shortly if I am not) you can give me some reasonable estimate range of time and cost. This is just the very beginning of the conversation, but honestly, many bridges are burned just trying to get that far. It is a much worse problems with a sales conversation, as I am sure you know. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But you are right, just reading this has started some things. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

FrugalAnnie and Boss Hoss - Do you think the USEA has any interest in this? Esp. now that they want to breed eventers? I often think that the eventers haven't really hit this issue yet. But I think it is coming soon. BTW - Based on this thread I have learned that my eventing trainer is, in fact, my mentor for training young horses. She was quite pleased to hear it! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

SCFarm

[Boss Hoss]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>FrugalAnnie and Boss Hoss - Do you think the USEA has any interest in this? Esp. now that they want to breed eventers? I often think that the eventers haven't really hit this issue yet. But I think it is coming soon. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well I've tried to bring this up on eventing forums, BUT I say the first step is to first develop an "American Eventing Registry" that is a performance based registry for Eventing "type" horses so we first establish a STANDARD breed type for eventing that overtime can be used to develop the ideal "sporthorse". And if dressage and the short format become more important, then you'd want to bring in more dressage blood (ie warmblood) to help mold the "type" in the direction the sport needs.

Eventers don't seem to have a problem starting their own stock, their used to getting OTTB so "well started" has a completely different meaning to us http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Gold Dust]

Again, let me try and stay on track here because this thread has so many lives and I know you are all about sick to death of me right now but I am only one on a small thread. Wait until the gates of hell really open! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Again, I think I'm getting this. You want a standard form of training language that the USEF needs to recognize. OK, why don't you start right now with #1 and on down. Once you get an agreemennt on that http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif [easier said then done] step two.
Now you are off to the federation with this proposal. I have been to some of these and trust me, you are like a little fish in a huge ocean. Besides, you better have every I doted every t crossed and a mass volume of people that support you in that room at that time. It is not as easy as you think. We all know just going to a steward at a local show can run you smack in a brick wall. Just think about the convention room!

After all of this has been said and done as you mentioned LLDM, what is going to change that if trainer says they have 'backed' your horse and it comes to you and it is not a proper and complete finished product? You are going to say you did not follow the guidlines and they are going to say they did.
I know you have spoken of bridges burned and I feel this is all so sad. Again, not all our faults. I may be the pimple that just won't go away here but when it comes to any of the federations, it will get much worse then right now.
The drug issue may have possibly gotten the quick attention you thought it did because I have been hearing and sat in on some conventions and this has been brewing for years and years. Remember, that has legal issues and trainers can be banned from horse shows where many make their bread and butter.
Guidlines to be followed at home will be a battle you can never win IMO.

So, back to the 20th square one on this thread. How about we start with guidline one and see what your feedback is?? You could get great feedback, here right from the big guys right on down to the little guy!

[LLDM]

Boss Hoss - I guess I wasn't clear. I agree that the Eventers would do themselves a big favor (in the breeding dept.) to start a performance registry.

What I meant for you and Annie was: are you and/or the USEA interested in the mentor/young horse trainer thing. My trainer, who is an eventing trainer, makes money on mentoring me and seems to enjoy it. Folks like you would probably be good at mentoring. Eventers like FrugalAnnie want to learn to train, but are aware of their own limitations and want to do a good job. If I am reading here right, she doesn't want to make a living doing this, just take some outside youngsters of her choosing. This could work a number of ways. But I still think it might just be fanstatic if "real trainers" worked with the future pros or folks like Annie and me that just want to learn to train for its own sake. My experience with eventers in this type of situation has been very positive. I will speak to my trainer today when she comes, as I think she would be perfect to do this for more people like me. I am also "on call" to help her out on occasion when she could use a good ground person. She's training me, so she knows what she is getting. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

GD - You're not a pimple! And I hear you. Here's the thing - what we are asking is not hard nor expensive, AND it is in the best interest of just about ALL of their membership. For someone like you: If I make an arrangement with you to take my horses from just backed to green, this now has a relatively specific meaning. You either accomplish this or not. Right now, because the terms are not defined, I could say you didn't, you could say you did and no one would know who was right. Maybe we both were, because we had different expectations. If you did get the horse to green you could prove it if we have a common, industry standard of meanings.

Right now there is not so much as a simple list of trainers produced by the USEF or any of the NGBs. Let alone what they do (i.e. "A" shows, starting horses, juniors). I know, I've been looking for pros to take a horse from well started to green.

Breeders know this is a real problem. Trainers are starting to see it, esp. in dressage. Buyers complain constantly that breeders misrepersent horses when often it is a matter of terminolgy (which wastes everyone's time). Trainers get sent horses that are supposedly well started, who are in fact barely backed. And God help the poor soul who buys a young horse and then tries to find someone to start it. They are truely at the mercy of droves of idiots. Nor is there anything to tell them that they probably won't be able to ride a "just backed" youngster. Even a nice horse with a great start can be quite ruined by an owner/rider who can't take it from there. Then they bring the trainwreck to you, right?

I believe that just a common reference concerning the basic steps (or levels) involved (and necessary) in creating a performance horse out of an unbacked youngster would only benefit us all. It doesn't solve everything, no. But it would go a long way in educatiing people about the process, the cost and the level of effort (ergo, why it is expensive).
I really believe that trainers and breeders have much more in common than not. And that we suffer under the lack of any type of reference system for similar reasons.

In a perfect world, I could sell a young, well started horse and say to the buyer, "send it to GD". They can take it from here to green or "showing the Greens" for you and you will end up with a great Ami horse and a great return on your investment. You can say, oh, that horse is from SCFarm, and so we know it is "well started". AND THE CLIENT CAN KNOW WHAT WE MEAN!

Then you can call me and say, I'm looking for a well started "A" hunter prospect, do you have anything that would interest me. And I could say, yes, no or I have one thouroghly backed who will be ready in about 3 -4 months that may fit by then. How long do these conversations take now? How much distrust is gernerated by differing assumptions and terminology problems? We simply must have a basic framework and some common reference points to work from. I don't have the time to make it up each time around. I would rather conentrate on my core competancies and determining if you (the trainer) are able to do what you say (rather than trying to figure out what you mean first).

SCFarm

[Boss Hoss]

I am only a bNT working under a BNT myself. I am not in a position to mentor someone working with their own young horse. My experience is in doing the starting and riding through first level and field hunting. So I'd be the guy you have prepare the young horse before going into a specific discipline, like dressage or eventing. If its dressage, then they go onto my BNT boss. My BNT says I have an innate ability with starting them, and hoenstly, it is a skill set that doesn't require FEI ability, but yet FEI ability does not always make the best starter. I'd love to be able to go out and get my "starters license" if that would make my credentials that much more attractive.

I don't present myself as an "event trainer", as I am still moving up the training scale in eventing myself and have only limited experience "eventing". I have Manny who is my learning tool and hopefully break into the prelim+ ranks with, and I have a 3yo ID stallion I'm bringing along into eventing next year as well.

[LLDM]

Boss Hoss - I think I've got it! You can take a horse from unbacked to green, plus do remedial training. I can do unbacked to well started, but not green nor remedial (I'm getting there, but am still working with my mentor to improve existing skills and add more). Further more, you are advanced enough to do this for outside (client) horses, and I am not yet there (and not real sure I want to be at this point).

Now I know what you can do and you know what I can do. If we have both been honest, when and if we ever meet and try to do business together, we now have the criteria to evaluate the results of our respective work. If I bring you a horse I say is well started, you can watch it go under me, and get on it yourself, and know if I am the real deal or full of it!

You can show me a horse you brought to green and I will be able to tell if you are! Based on how we representated the horse and results of our work.

Now that we have met and seen each others "work product" we can do business together with some level of confidence.

Honestly, sometimes I think we have made the problems too hard and that they are more easily solved than we think, in large part, with just some common reference points. No, it won't solve averything, but I think it would be a great and relatively simple place to start.

OMom - Let's start by writing that open letter!

SCFarm

[LLDM]

Adding that I do take my young horses to discipline specific trainers pretty often. For evaluations, clinics, or as sales prospects.

They are always surprised (pleasently) when they determine that I have accurately described the horse's current level of training, my riding ability and the strengths and weaknesses of the horse (like conformation, temperment, potential, etc.).

No wonder trainers and buyers can get so cynical sometimes. I don't blame them.

This won't stop liars or ignorant people, but it will facilitate communication amoug the honest and the clued-in. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The biggest compliment I get (and want) is that I am and do what I say I am and do.

SCFarm

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LLDM:

OMom - Let's start by writing that open letter!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. Boss Hoss you and LLDM seem to be on the same page and are speaking the same language. Perhaps that's where we start. Let's take that ball and run with it, shall we?

I am tempted, as well, to open a new thread in order to focus on this one aspect, writing and approving to the general breeding population here on CoTH—an open letter that pretty much just states the concern breeders have in this country re training issues. Especially since this puppy is now 10 pages long. (Not that I think this discussion should be tabled.)

The objective is NOT to be confrontational, to NOT put these folks on the defensive, but to try and open a constructive and pro-active discussion. If we're lucky, we just MIGHT get them to address this at the annual conventions, particularly as it appears to be so timely.

So. New topic? OR, to avoid confusion, perhaps a private topic to get the ball rolling and some progress, after which we might present it to all the inmates of the current asylum! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

If that's the case, who wants in?

[Gold Dust]

OK now the light is really going off in the old head here.
So, my horses have recording numbers. At any time I can pay a small fee and check on any horses past performance record of anyones! We have these new ID numbers. Still I scratch my head with that one but, that's been hashed over at H/J forum too. All trainers have exsisting numbers. Although this does not help with started horses [I'll get back to that] it might help with looking up divisions trainers have riden in. Would this be a small start since we already have numbers? I am the advocate on many a bb to tell people to go to your local horse show when searching for a trainer and watch them work. All local rated shows have divisions like baby green-horses in their first or second year of showing. Then at the As you have pre-green. Great division to see if you like what you see. That help there maybe?
Now, on to starters. These have no show record. Now why not add a box that says you are a professional but specialize in breaking/starting or whatever terms we come up with. That would be part B to that, getting these terms in a per-say dictionary via the federations. Could this help you?

Edited to say, yes, I know the problems with name changes of horses so that can get a little frustrating but at least trainers names don't change much!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[Gold Dust]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:
writing and approving to the general breeding population here on CoTH—an open letter that pretty much _just states the concern breeders have in this country re training issues._
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just to point out that some in the asylum http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif are trainers. Does this not sound confrontational right there? I think your support comes from both, no?

[PineTreeFarm]

Someone mentioned a Performance Horse Registry for Eventing. USEF already maintains a PHR registry for all breeds, covers dressage, hunter/jumpers and eventers. They give annual high score awards. The information from this database is used to do the sire rankings for jumpers, Hunters and even Pony breeding. Yes, it does cost another fee to record the horse in this registry but you can track performance by bloodlines. All the info is on USEF's webpage.
Dust mentioned getting results by trainer. I'm thinking this won't work too well. All the info is organized by Horse Name/ID. If the trainer is not the rider of the horse USEF won't know about it as Trainer Name is not required on paper results filings or on electronic filing. If the division is not a USEF recognized section then there is no record at USEF. Wouldn't many of the 'starter trainers'
be showing in non recognized divisions??

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gold Dust:

Just to point out that some in the asylum http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif are trainers. Does this not sound confrontational right there? I think your support comes from both, no? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

C'mon GD! Gimme a break. Do you think I'd exclude you (or trainers for that matter)????? No way, babe.

[Gold Dust]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PineTreeFarm:

Dust mentioned getting results by trainer. I'm thinking this won't work too well. All the info is organized by Horse Name/ID. If the trainer is not the rider of the horse USEF won't know about it as Trainer Name is not required on paper results filings or on electronic filing. If the division is not a USEF recognized section then there is no record at USEF. Wouldn't many of the 'starter trainers'
be showing in non recognized divisions?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pine Tree- you are the best to pop on in as I know what you keep track of for us here on a local scale must be mind straining. Now put that on a higher scale and I can see the problems. Although I already thought this but it was worth a shot.

I know I have this huge hard cover book in my living room with every single person from that year that currently had a number. It told of who you are, contact numbers, trainer, amateur Jr. judges etc etc. I thought maybe if this included people who break and start it might help these breeders in search of trainers some how too!?

[PineTreeFarm]

One more thing and then I'll go away.
The USEF has said that they will be changing how shows report their results. This applies to ALL shows, not just Hunter/Jumper. I think the intent is to get demographic info for Marketing purposes but I could be wrong. If the reporting process will be changing isn't this a good time to do some lobbying to get more breeder info in the USEF database or to get their Performance Horse Database open to all through their website? Wouldn't you like to be able to track horses you have bred? If you could provide performance information ( documented ) on horses you produce it might help your sales effort.

[LLDM]

PineTreeFarm - Your comments are very welcome here! Thanks for the info.

Some food for thought - The quote below is directly of the BEF (British Equestrian Federation):

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Young-Horse Training Scheme Working Group
Chairman: Jane Kidd

Membership:
Recommended for appointment by the Breeding and Database Programme Management Committee from individuals with interest, enthusiasm and expertise in the training of young horses.

Responsibilities:
Work with the Director of Breeding to: -
• Establish criteria for identifying and developing promising young-horse trainers and training programmes.
• Liaise with the Young Horse Evaluation Series Committee to identify trainers who have consistently put forward correctly prepared young horses for the Young Horse Evaluations.

This working group has set itself a goal to introduce programmes which will produce young horses in a way that maximises their talents, potential to remain sound and where appropriate marketability, whether they are used for recreational riding or for top international competitions. Having set standards for the training of young horses an education programme will be embarked upon for both trainers and judges of young horses. The group will also develop systems of recognition for successful young-horse trainers.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The BEF is quite serious about developing and recognizing quality young horses, breeding programs and trainers who specialize in preparing them properly. Including British Breeding - the following is also on the BEF website:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>BRITISH BREEDING
British Horse Foundation (BHF), the Supporters of British Breeding (SBB) and the BEF Breeding and Database Programme Management Committee (BDPMC) have amalgamated to market British equine breeding under the title of British Breeding.

British Horse Foundation
Supporters of British Breeding
BRITISH BREEDING NEWS HEADLINES

Breeders Quality Mark (BQM) Leaflet Click Here

YHE 2004 Royal Show Gala Championship Results Click Here

British Breeding Newsletter 9 Click Here

Futurity Scheme Rules (Downloadable from Public Documents) Click Here

Results from YHE Series 2004 Click Here

Supporters of British Breeding Application Form Click Here

BEF BREEDING AND DATABASE PROGRAMME
Adopted by the BEF Board in 2002 the BEF Breeding and Database Programme has two main aims:

to produce British-bred horses capable of carrying British international riders to success at the highest level and in the process to provide a corresponding up-grade in the temperament, athleticism and soundness of British-bred sport horses, competing at all national and international levels.

to create an industry-wide initiative to advance the whole of the British sport horse breeding industry in a spirit of co-operation without compromising the aspirations and integrity of individual participating organisations.

The Breeding Plan is working to advance and promote British Breeding through:

Young Horse Evaluations Series

Foal of the Future Series

Breeders Quality Mark

National Equine Database

Young-Horse Training Scheme

Breeding Indices

Breeders Cup Futurity Scheme

Equine Markets and Marketing
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I also spent some time on the BHS (British Horse Society) site, looking at their extensive system of certifications. There are 4 levels each of Horse Keeping, Riding and Instruction. The horse keeping levels can be awarded stand alone or in conjunction with the associated riding levels. Instrutors must be level 3 in horse keeping and riding to test for the preliminary instrustors cert. The highest level of horsekeeping and riding are required for the intermediate, advanced and "fellow" level instrutors.

The testing for young horse training is included in the upper levels of the Horse Keeping (handling breeding stock) and Riding (training young horses) certifications. Therefore you can be certified on the young horse stuff without getting an instructors cert., but you can't get an instuctors cert. without the young horse tests since they are included in the prerequisites. Makes sense to me.

This is the level of service the British systems provide their members, and by the looks of it total dues to them are roughly the same as ours. And yet they are providing a much higher level of service to their breeders and trainers from the looks of it. Hmmm. I wish I could read French and German to see what they are up to also. This is our competition guys!

www.bef.co.uk (http://www.bef.co.uk)
www.bhs.org.uk (http://www.bhs.org.uk)

SCFarm

[Oldenburg Mom]

LLDM -

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> to create an industry-wide initiative to advance the whole of the British sport horse breeding industry in a spirit of co-operation without compromising the aspirations and integrity of individual participating organisations. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmmm. Changing this around here and there ... do you see a "mission-statement-kinda-thing" to open up our proposed letter?

Of course, acknowledgement to the Brits would be in order.

BTW, true story. I came back to the US after living in England for almost 8 years; when I went to take riding lessons again, the first question I asked was about certification of the instructors. And yes, the people behind the desk DID look at me as if I had 6 heads.

------------------

BTW, LLDM. I'm scribing all weekend and you betcha I'm going to pester pester pester the judge, who I know (and who has judged Duc) on this very topic. I will report back. No names, of course, but she's not only a breed judge, but a performance judge. Oh, and she started out in eventing, so she's a real allrounder.

[Pol]

Hi- I just snuck over from the eventer forum...I haven't read this whole topic bc I am not a breeder and probably never will be, but I do want to add my 2 cents. Pied Piper suggested on page 1 that young horses would be best trained by eventers and I wanted to agree with that...AS A RULE,(I know, I know, there are always exceptions) we are very brave and we teach our horses to be brave, solid citizens. They learn dressage and jumping, they go out in the open, in company and alone. They probably have the most natural living arrangements of competitive horses as many of them live out or at least are turned out for long periods of time. They are treated like kings and queens, have the best diets, the best fitness routines, partnerships are strong between horse and rider. Eventers' horses grow up to be the most well- rounded bc they have to understand all disciplines.
(If you are looking for a brave eventer who would love to take on the early training of your 3-4 year olds, you can contact my daughter, Emstah!!http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif)

[LLDM]

Hi Pol - If you had managed to wade through this whole thread, you would see that many of us breeders are open to this and/or have had good experiences with eventers starting their youngsters. My trainer is an eventer and my youngsters have deefinitely benefited from their well rounded starts.

I think it would be a much more common solution if there were a good way for breeders and eventers to find each other. There is not much overlap (yet) between our two circles.

Any ideas on how to make this happen are welcome!

SCFarm

[still dreaming]

hi folks,
what's the status of this (excellent) idea?

It seems like the perfect time to get this ball rolling... the usdf convention, stallion and breeding mags in the works for dec/jan publication... this dialogue could really gain some steam.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Well, I'll start the ball rolling ... I mean I'll start the open letter.

Does everyone think it's a good idea?

I'll move this to a PT, so everyone can contribute, then come back to the BB for critique and comments. Then we can actually vote.

What say you?

I'd really like to have more than a couple people's input on writing it too. So far I have LLDM, Home Again Farm, Fairview, ... who else?

[KimPeterson]

I had been interested in going to Germany to learn their system of starting young horses.

From reading the thread there is a need for young horse trainers - Please include me in your discussions ") I haven't read through the whole thread yet....

[gillenwaterfarm]

OM

As a small, one horse produced per year, breeder who starts her own horses, I'd love to support this excellent idea.

Please include me on your PT list.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Ok. List is as follows:

Gillenwaterfarm
oceanheightsfarm
LLDM
Home Again Farm
Fairview Horse Center
LoriK (Sorry Lori. You were drafted! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif)
still dreaming (Yes?)
Mayhem
NinaL aka Chrissy
SueL

I'll let this run another couple of days, then close it and start.

[lorik]

OMOM,
You know I'll pitch in wherever you need me. BTW, oceanheights has the ear of a wonderful gentleman who is excellent at pointing the way to successful starting of young horses. He's helped me more than I ever thought possible.
Lori

[Mayhem]

put me on the list I am sure I can make a contribution!

[Oldenburg Mom]

Ahhhh Lori. You're the best! Always willing to pitch in where needed!

Mayhem. Ok. On the list as well. Thanks so very much for your help.

Wow, are we getting some momentum going here, or is it just my imagination (probably!!!)

BTW, I'm just going to edit the above post to add people.

[still dreaming]

sure- whatever i can do

[Oldenburg Mom]

The more I hear about it, the more long-lining seems to be such a valuable tool. I'm talking to a local guy about giving a clinic in long-lining... which I hope he will do in the spring.

You don't seem to see it much anymore though, do you? Except for the people that are into the basics ... for example, when I was talking the guy mentioned above, a young rider was listening and said "What's long-lining?" She'd never even heard of it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Oceanheights ... what happened to your post. It was great!!!!

[Gold Dust]

Wow, I've been so busy today is the first time I've had time to post. I'm glad this is still up and going. Although this seems to be the breeders project any help I can be feel free.

LLDM-loved your post. It was a great education as to the british organization. I'm thinking you guys might want to see what the USEF has in its by-laws, rules or whatever already and see if some of this stuff may have fallen under the 'Cold Case Files' http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif That site scares me because it is huge and you need hours to find what you are looking for sometimes. Some things you are trying to accomplish may be written already, just dormant.

[Oldenburg Mom]

GD -

Do you want to participate in the Open Letter we're going to move to PT? If so, I'll put your name on the list. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pol:
Hi- I just snuck over from the eventer forum...I haven't read this whole topic bc I am not a breeder and probably never will be, but I do want to add my 2 cents. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pol, I'd love to have an eventer, and their perspective, in on this as well. Would you care to help with the letter ... ?

[KimPeterson]

My post was deleted as I didn't want to sound as if we where taking outside horses for training ect. now just an idea we where kicking around with Richard. (he does long lining in his regular clinics if asked)

We do use long lining with all our horses, the young horses are relaxed and supple they learn all the basics from the ground and it is easiest to keep them forward into contact from the ground esp when they are young. IT is useful for hunters, jumpers, eventers, and dressage horses can even be worked on their upper level movements. For the young horses it gives them each aspect of "riding" one step at a time, and then when you are ready to back them you can gradually transfer that knowledge. Plus I can also teach them a bit of lateral movements from the ground after they have the "concept" of forward. Turn on the haunches and forehand - strengthening the hindend and building the horses confidence/balance.

I could go on and on.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I wanted to add that Los Alamos Dressage center in Freehold NJ does long lining with their horses in training, they also take them out on the "trail" and will work them over smaller fences. I went up their with Unico over the summer, they have a pretty well rounded program - if someone is looking right now for suggestions for trainers their young horse http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Tell Gail I said HI http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Gold Dust]

I'd love to. Remember, the one thing the PHA is good for is at our local meetings we have many Zone 2 reps that attend the local PHA Meeting. They are supposed to bring proposals to the table at all those closed meetings us little guys cann't attend and keep us informed. I can ask some favors when all this is ready or ask them for some guidance if need be. Although anyone I know is H/J based, we need to cover the dressage, eventing and breeding reps. Right?

Here comes the politics side!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OceanHeightsFarm:

I wanted to add that Los Alamos Dressage center in Freehold NJ does long lining with their horses in training... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I spent all last weekend scribing for Gail. She's just wonderful, and I can not say enought nice things about her. I met originally her in North Carolina at Janine Malone's Breed show. Almost a year later, I scribed for her at a local show, here in the twilight zone.

I am definately going to trailer over to her during the winter, probably for a weekend. She is marvellous, and a very good teacher, even if I was just scribing! And soooo easy to talk to, about any little riding question/problem!

ANYWAY. After I scribed for her, she came over to critique a mare I had on loan, AND brought along a Grand Prix rider to ride! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Well, at least it would have been better than me riding http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

What a nice lady to give so much, especially of her time—she is one heck of a busy lady. I have a LOT of respect for her!

[frugalannie]

OM, if you want to include this unrepentant, over-the-hill, non-representative eventer and backyard breeder, I'd be honored.

Just to make more public that for which I'll be lobbying, I think we need a document that defines what skills a horse (for any discipline) should master to be called "x". For "x", substitute backed, green, any term you find yourself and others using.

Then I'd like to see exhibits/ appendices for each stage, identifying training methods and techniques to achieve these skills, and qualified trainers willing to mentor (for a fee, of course) those interested in working with them. Unfortunately, that means we have to get into the can of worms known as qualifying trainers. But that, in a nutshell, is what I would find useful.

It would also be great if, in practice, the mentors kept lists of people who have worked with them who could successfully bring on a youngster for someone else. That would be a resource for the breeders. I would expect that the breeders would have to foot the bill for the mentoring sessions for their babies, their normal care expenses, and be sure to have an insurance policy on the horse should anything go amiss.

Is this what others are thinking of? It's hard for me to know: I just jumped back into this thread when 15 family members left for a day in Boston. Only me, great-grandma and the infant here, so I snuck on the computer. How I've missed horse-talk! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Oldenburg Mom]

frugalannie,

I'd loff to have you on the PT. You have a unique perspective, being both a breeder and an eventer (ex- or otherwise!)

Just a 'heads up' though: this will probably not be a chapter and verse kind of document. More a "we're frustrated and want you to know." and of course the sub-text is: we want you to DO something about it.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Ok. GD & Frugalannie. You'd been included.

[Boss Hoss]

I can't imagine starting a youngster with out long-lining. A lot of my methods are based on colt breaking, but the english influence in me has me also long-lining them and driving them around the farm before I ever ask them to pick me off the fence. By the time I stand on the stump to mount the horse for the first time, he is ready for his first trail ride practically. Better to keep the buck in them, then start them by bucking them out.

But herein lies a difficulty you'll face. Ask 10 people how to start a horse, you will get 5-10 different responses. Some will do colt breaking..some will do classical "dressage" methods. Who is going to decide WHICH method is right?

This "problem" is still going to be decided by results, not regulation. You will chose the right trainer based on objective results..the rideability factor of the horse coming from BNT's training system. As a breeder you also want to be very careful which BNT you send your horse to. No matter what system of regulation is created...bad eggs still get in the carton.

You don't want the rideability of your bloodlines to be compromised by a bad egg with a certificate.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>For "x", substitute backed, green, any term you find yourself and others using. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Make sure we're talking about a training pyramid. "x" should be the development of the BASIC rideability factors before the horse goes into a specific discipline. This will be so subjective. Are we re-inventing the 100 day testing thinking?

[Oldenburg Mom]

This isn't a question of certification, training methods, or people's opinions on starting horses.

The objective of the letter is to say "there's a problem" and of course, ask the question, "How do we solve it?"

I have NO answers. I am going into this with NO answers. I am going into this with expectations, however. I am expecting that our governing bodies be pro-active about researching the problem.

And I will say this right up front, so everyone knows. No matter what solution/solutions are developped, no matter how long or what direction they take, SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE WON'T LIKE IT, and will probably fight it tooth and nail.

What's that old Mark Twain chestnut? You can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all the people all the time.

Worth noting before EVERYONE is alienated.

[LLDM]

OMom - I am here for the moment, but have just recieved some very bad news about my favorite Dressage trainer. She is in the hospital and it is quite serious. I am trying to find out what I can do to help and maybe headed over to her barn to help out. Damn it all, this sucks. I am so scared for her!

GD - I believe this is very much a trainer issue also. I guess I see it as trying to close the gap between breeding and training. Breeders need to be able to send their youngsters out with confidence to trainers whose setup and methods dovetail with that partiular breeder. Trainers need to be able to take youngsters who are the appropriate quality and solid groundwork/manners in place, nor have to any unrealistic expetations from the breeder. I really think this goes both ways.

BTW - This stuff was easy to find on the BEF site! It was pretty front and center. Along with information on their big push to reorg! They hired Deloitte & Touche to do an efficiency study on their whole org (including the discipline NGBs) and found that they were too political, redundent and not cost effestive. They are planning an overhual to fix these issues! It's called the "Stratford Proposal" and the whole thing is on-line. It is for the "modernization of the BEF! http://cgi.www.demon.net/cgi-bin/www.bef.co.uk/getdoc.pl/stratford%20proposal.pdf?docid=114

There website starts with the following statement:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Welcome to the web site of the British Equestrian Federation, the recognised governing body of horse sports in the UK. Through its twelve members, the BEF represents and works on behalf of over 160,000 riders in Britain, under its mission statement: "More Medals, More People, More Horses, More Places"
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Both the Stratford Proposal and the Younh Horse Evaluation links are on the front page. And 160,000 members! Isn't that about the same number we have? Isn't our country a bit bigger?

I know they are not perfect, but it sure does look like they are trying in an organized and public way.

SCFarm

[Oldenburg Mom]

LLDM,

There is only one important thing at the moment: your friend.

Go, dear.

She's in my thoughts and prayers.

[Boss Hoss]

So at this point..what is the summary of the problem you wish to have addressed?

It seems the solution will in part depend on more regulation and licensing, so it will in turn require a firming up of exactly what are the definitions, and of course with licensing and regulations comes higher fees.

None of us could move to Europe and hang a shingle out as a trainer without a license right?

[LLDM]

OMom - Although I agree that we need to let them know about the problems, I think we might try to offer some simple beginning steps that may be helpful.

For example only:

- Please define some basic terms concerning young horses and their training stages.
(they don't have to be perfect or complicated, just a base line - And they are in the business of defining terms)

- Please encourage the cooperation and connections between US breeders and US trainers.
(just their public encouragement will benefit us)

- Please make a Philosophical commitment to the development of US breed and US trained horses.
(Just by saying this is a goal of the USEF would help - this has not been done)

- Acknowledge the gap between quality horses and quality training and that BOTH must be present to produce the type of competition horse required to compete in todays national and international venues.
(I know we know this is obvious, but many, many people just don't get that it takes BOTH!)

The idea being that we want their public support, but that it doesn't need to take a long time, cost a lot of money or get lost in politics.

Just my thoughts. Arguements are welcome.

SCFarm

[Gold Dust]

Taking this topic to the governing bodies now. In dealing with any proposal you will meet success and failure. No one will get all they want. Guidlines may be set but not what each and every one of you would like but they may be set. Yes, Boss, you are dealing with many different disciplines that expect many different things. Time frames will be another. Some have all the time in the world and others are based on financial and those don't have all the time in the world. Training effects this.

It is someone/s passion? That is the point. In dealing with local organizations and one on the National level, this is what they are lacking. Listening to the people. It is not all about dinner dances, points and money. It is what is best for the industry. Weather you agree with a passion 100% or not at all, it needs to be heard. That is the point. Get ready to bang your heads on walls. It will be a long hard road. Ask Snowbird. Weather you agree with her or not she is an army of one at times.

Also, if you loose and no one listens, sometimes there is a message in that too and you really didn't loose. You may get, Oh yeah, I did not think of that or now I see why this was done this way or yes, now I see why this won't work but in those few statements that feel like a loss, I'll bet one of the 20 proposals you put out there might make enough sense to the powers that be or a light may go off that this is something that needs attention so a ball may begin rolling down a hill.

[LLDM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:
LLDM,

There is only one important thing at the moment: your friend.

Go, dear.

She's in my thoughts and prayers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks OMom - I am just "waiting to hear" right now. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sadsmile.gif She is no longer "critial" but I don't know anything else yet.

SCFarm

[Boss Hoss]

don't forget to include addressing the gap between the market and the real costs of breeding and training (two separate industries) a horse to that point. how to do all that you desire and working within what the market will provide.

how much is a well trained youngster ready to move into YORU discipline worth? What the market will provide, or what it really costs (time and money) to develop the product? Any business that sells a product at a loss, doesn't stay in business. But that's the state of the industry isn't it?

[LLDM]

Boss Hoss - The definition of terms only defines results - what generic level of training has been achieved (not the method). This just gives us common vocabulary to communicate with. Exceptions can then be discussed with these terms in mind.

For example: This horse is well started with the exception of riding in the open, or with the exeption of cantering in the open.

It does not (yet) address the quality of training. That is IMHO too much to ask to fast. I believe the definition of terms is a prerequisite to solving the quality or method of training issues. But it can give us some better tools to explore this issue, both individually and in possible future "certification" training program.

Small doable steps in the right direction. That's how it starts! rossing the bridges as we come to them and not burning them behind us. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

SCFarm

[Oldenburg Mom]

LLDM -

These are issues which can be hashed out before we present to this breeding forum.

We might put that in a section titled 'suggested first steps' or maybe 'immediate issues to solve' But the large issue here, of course, comes right down to cash.

IF you are a big breeder, IF you have a ton of cash, yes, you can pay $1K a month to start your horse at any number of very fine establishments, with any number of fine trainers.

It's the SMALL breeder that can't get there, again, blah blah blah blah etc. And, as we all know the small breeder is by FAR the preponderant world wide.

No one is saying "We want free training" but heavens. With people—who everyone on this board would recognize—saying they are thinking of getting out of breeding, we've a much larger problem than everyone thinks. For every breeder that quits, you've got one more buyer going to Europe.

This only strengthens the European base (DUH! DUH! DUH!) and diminishes ours. This is not brain surgery folks.

[Gold Dust]

Guys, no matter how you look at this you will be trying to regulate things, and yes, fees will raise and yes, the governing bodies will ask what is your proper stage of training and then all trainers will be put on some sort of follow the numbers possibly. If follow the numbers work for dressage not H/J or vise versa hold on to your hats. What happens when someone says, I need this horse sold, lets move, numbers will get cut out.
Is this not going to mean regulating and politics?
Stop, take a deep breath and think. Your first proposal is your most important. They need to listen and not blow you off. They will, I've seen it done. I've tried getting health coverage at a discount here for PHA members. Tried to start a ball rolling and hit a huge brick wall. I thought it was a great idea but man, I got shot right down. Am I done, no, but learned all about this proposal thing the hard way! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

[Oldenburg Mom]

I'm glad everyone has a crystal ball and can predict the future because I sure can't.

I have no idea where this is going to end and I certainly am not going to predict what the reaction will be—from anyone, much less the USEF, USDF et al.

On this board alone we have had a multitude of responses ... why would anyone think there would be anything different when approaching the "powers that be?"

And GD, this definitely should NOT be a proposal. This is an open letter to express concern, and to promote and encourage attention and debate on the subject. Proposing ANYTHING at the early stage would be a HUGE mistake (IMHO)

P.S. BTW, that really sucks about the health care stuff. You must have been grinding your teeth to nubs.

[Boss Hoss]

Well you're defining the story of my life as a trainer..client says "this horse has been backed and well started" matching up with your definition, and I find nothing but holes in its education, starting with just being led to and from the paddock. So at least by defining the process (an actual training scale) you will then know more about the quality of the resulting product. This really is a process engineering problem for the industry to go through. People are referring to an already established German process for guidance, that is part of the solution.

[Boss Hoss]

This may actually come down to an issue of culture. Europe has a different cultural perspective when dealing with the horse "industry". First off, it is an actual industry with much more regulations than we have.

We're talking about a culture of small breeders trying to find a connection to the training industry that are servicing a lot of one horse owners or larger breeding facilities. Its gonna be hard to make this connection when I can fill a stall for 2x what a breeder can afford to pay on the open market.

The buyer understands the value of training as they seem willing to pay for it when they own the horse, but aren't so willing to pay for it up front, as in what it really costs you to make the product they are buying.

It really is a bridge to build..the best bet as a small breeder is to sell early enough before you get into that window where buyers want to see more kinetic than potential energy. if the bridge isn't their, you are going to be in trouble trying to get the industry to change for your conditions.

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Boss Hoss:
It really is a bridge to build..the best bet as a small breeder is to sell early enough before you get into that window where buyers want to see more kinetic than potential energy. if the bridge isn't there, you are going to be in trouble trying to get the industry to change for your conditions. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And around and around and around we go ... this has ALL been discussed before and it is counter-productive to just say "you are going to be in trouble" etc.

So, just throw up your hands and give up.

You can. I won't.

[LLDM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Boss Hoss:
don't forget to include addressing the gap between the market and the real costs of breeding and training (two separate industries) a horse to that point. how to do all that you desire and working within what the market will provide.

how much is a well trained youngster ready to move into YORU discipline worth? What the market will provide, or what it really costs (time and money) to develop the product? Any business that sells a product at a loss, doesn't stay in business. But that's the state of the industry isn't it? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow Boss Hoss! Yep, this is the heart and the meat of the matter.

Right now, the solution is often to "outsource" breeding and training! Or take a loss. Or skimp on training, breeding, raising or all of the above. This, as you know, reduces quality and reliability AND leads to too many substandard horses with uncertain futures.

The only answer I know of is to increase effiency! Without compromising quality! So, if our "finished product" is a horse that can be riden by an amateur or junior safely and effectively, where to we get more efficient?

First - we must reduce the need for remedial training. That means a horse is bred for soundness, ridabilty and talent, properly raised and started, and then brought along properly in the discipline it shows talent for. Deviations from this path are wasteful and expensive!

Second - The buyers need to be educated so they can make reasonable buying descions! Riders need to know that the better they ride the more money they can save and that they can get a better horse for less if they are capable of "finishing" it themselves (under a good trainer). THAT is the "value add" of good riding!

Third - Expectations need to set up properly. Too many riders are over or under horsed. Trainers need to be able to say, you are not ready for a "well started" horse. If you buy one, you will still need to pay for training until it is "green" or "made" or whatever. As breeders, starters, etc. we need to be able to tell buyers this too. "He is just backed" so he will need a lot more professional training before he is ready to show". Right now, that just makes the buyers mad at us. It is true, but unpopular to say because they don't understand!

Fourth - Europe isn't perfect. But they are more efficient. There ARE trade offs in buying a european horse. By educating buyers on the whole process of "making" a good horse, they will be able to evaluate US bred horses against their European counterparts in an apples to apples comparison. US horses DO HAVE some advantages, especially where the average US rider is concerned. The methods and goals of the US system are more in line with producing a horse that will be successful in our environment! For many, many reasons!

Just having the definitions will give us the tools to make the process more efficient. We will have to use them properly and consistently in order for it to pay off. When breeders, trainers and the USEF are all on the same first page, we can get the buyers/riders to understand better. If they hear the same thing from all of us, they will start to get it. And expectations can be met with effiency.

Yeah, yeah, I know, "I have a dream" and all that. But we gotta start somewhere, right? Right now we got nada.

SCFArm

[Fairview Horse Center]

I have to admit, I am one of the skeptics that we will get anywhere. Training methods are so different, and expectations are so different, and even with a "finished" product (Young horse nicely started), how do we get the buyers to see what we have. The MAHB Sales fest this weekend was a good example. I didn't get to go, but I hear the place was empty - very few people looking. Now with close to 100 Warmbloods of varing ages available over 2 days, I have to ask, "WHERE WERE ALL OF THOSE PEOPLE THAT SAY THEY CAN'T FIND ANYTHING???" THE PLACE SHOULD HAVE BEEN PACKED!!!!

A friend of mine has a 3 year old that was there. He has been shown Dressage, received 69% tests and 8s on gaits, Placed 6th in the Materiale class at Devon, was also shown at Swan Lake, local "Low Hunter" (2') division to a Reserve Champion. Where are the buyers??? This horse has been VERY nicely started, easy to ride, 3 nice gaits, and a good jumper - HE IS ONLY 3! So not quite up to 100 Day test of 3' jumps, and first level, but ready to go. People should have been crawling all over him. So he is with a professional, costs going higher and higher....

[Oldenburg Mom]

Buyers aren't looking here, Darlyn. They think it's easier just to trundle off to Europe. It is going to take time a HUGE F*&^$)@ effort to change the perception that yes, indeed, the US can compete very nicely with Europe, thank you very much.

But as GD so very pointedly stated, it isn't going to happen overnight.

And as usual, it is going to take a huge effort, by probably a very small number of people like LLDM, yourself, Lori, and all the others.

What chaps my @ss (thank you so very much for that expression Eomer. I laugh every time I use it) is that everyone sits back and b!tches and moans and criticizes, but doesn't try and change it. This is not easy, people. If it were easy we would have done it already and would be beating the pants off the Germans, English, Irish, WHOMEVER. We're in the game late and we need to use our good ol' ingenuity and smarts to catch up.

We are all going to get exasperated, frustrated, burnt out (at times) ... and ready to shoot the next person who calls on the phone, or heaven help him/her your spouse ( or dog or cat http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Get the picture?)

But it doesn't mean you stop.

[KimPeterson]

It has been my experience that there are A LOT of buyers looking for quiet,show experience, trained (including auto lead changes), packer over fences, trail rides, and over 16.1H, super clean X Rays,fancy mover - for under $9,000 -

-- it is harder to sell them for what they are worth unless they have a good show record or you do A LOT LOT LOT of advertising --

[Oldenburg Mom]

BTW, if anything is right about this thread it's the title: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Frustration Inc. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Fairview Horse Center]

I had stated once before, that the breeders are competing with so many "pleasure breeders" offering a deal in the US. They breed their mare, grow up the baby, and maybe even start it, but the whole time, their "goal" is to have fun, and sell it, not for a profit, but just to get a little cash, maybe pay their next stud fee, free up the stall so they can do it again. It is a hobby expense. Those horses are usually not the quality that breeders produce, but they are Warmbloods, offered cheap. Then, as Mark said, the new owners are perfectly willing to put a boat load of money into them in training - AFTER they own them.

These "pleasure breeders" are just breeding any mare they happen to have, to any Warmblood stallion that looks good to them, and the buyers don't know any difference either. They usually have papers on them as well, because when is the last time you saw any of the Warmblood Registires turn down a TB mare?? Ok, maybe the Hanoverians. Dutch and Sweedish, don't even need to be presented.

And the people looking for deals, don't seem to see any difference at all.

[KimPeterson]

Ms.Hunter below is right the buyer with the $$$$$$$$$$ for a youngster is going to be shopping at a training center -- most likely you will also have to offer a commission to the trainer. -- but I have to say I sold Ember to Wellington FL to a very wealthy buyer with a good trainer they did fly up here to see her and she was the only foal on the farm at the time...she was bought as a Jumper prospect- no commissions needed to be paid --

ADVERTISE ADVERTISE ADVERTISE !!!!! IT is worth it and IT DOES work -

BTW : $350 is not always "Field board" -- there are a few places with VERY NICE indoors here in southern NJ that offer full care for $400 they have 12 x 12 stalls very very nice and regular boarding barns with stalls at night and turnout all day for $350 a month full care nice facilities/riding rings and jumps too -- not "back yard" ....

[MsHunter]

Let me first say something and think about it a MINUTE before jumping down my back LOL!

The buyer you want to attract with the $$,$$$ to $$$$,$$$ is the same buyer who ALSO has a trainer.
This buyer ALSO has most likely a EUROPEAN car, say a VOLVO, MERCEDES or BMW.
This buyer ALSO most likely rides in a German or French saddle.
THis buyer also most likely attends a winter show circuit of some type (Indio, WPB, Ocala)
This buyer IS NOT GOING TO GO TO THE "inexpensive" training center with their trainer to buy the $$,$$$ to $$$,$$$ horse you want to sell.

They WILL however LISTEN to THEIR trainer and GO TO places in the US that THEIR trainer has stated as being "good" places to shop for an AMerican bred horse.

They are NOT going to the farm that has a board rate of $350 out on pasture to buy their horse.

Don't you guys get it? People are willing to pay where they see proof that people were willing to spend. It goes hand in hand!!!

People spending BIG MONEY want to shop where
they can see the horse fat, shiny, trained,
blanketed, clipped etc etc etc.

How to bring them up from foals is ONE thing, but what happens when they are 2+ or 3+ in entirely different.

I CAN GUARANTEE YOU PEOPLE BUY BY WORD OF MOUTH!

The best thing you can do for yourself as a breeder is BREED QUALITY HORSES!

Who is regulating the breeders out there?

No fingers pointed, JUST FUEL FOR THOUGHT!

Let me breed it and then see what it wants to be? I don't think so...................

[Oldenburg Mom]

We are getting way off topic here.

The latest objective of resurrecting this thread was to start work on the open letter.

We have had many of these discussions before, and as we all know they CAN be fruitless.

[danskbreeder]

I haven't been on for a while so I just saw this. I just spent the weekend riding my horse who I haven't seen since Feb. I sent her to a friend to be started and I have to say that she is already the best horse I've ever ridden. She's soft in the bit, incredibly responsive to my seat and leg, looks fabulously fit and even stands in a wash rack to be vacuumed. I knew that she was in good hands but I guess I never appreciated just how great! Since this was our firstborn She was the first to be started. From now on all of our horses will go to Colorado Springs for starting! Can't wait to send him my 3 year old boy, Weltlight (Weltjunge/Blue Hors Romancier). He's going in a few weeks.