Frustration Inc.: Devon discussions about starting young horses.

[LLDM]

OMom - You are right. Just start the PT with those who have expressed an interest.

SCFarm

[Oldenburg Mom]

Ok, LLDM. Off to start ...

[Oldenburg Mom]

Ok. All done. Those who signed up, please check your PTs.

Moderators, would you please be so kind as to close this thread.

Step two: we'll present the suggested open letter upon completion, and see who wants to virtually "sign it."

Then go from there.

THANKS EVERYONE ... let's see what we can accomplish (fingers are firmly crossed.)

[Tiki]

MsHunter, since you deal with hunters, what you say may be true, but when you are talking dressage and serious breeders, it is a different world and I don't agree with you on several points.

<<The buyer you want to attract with the $$,$$$ to $$$$,$$$ is the same buyer who ALSO has a trainer.>>

Maybe. Not all dressage riders have a hand-holding trainer. They may have someone they take lessons with or clinic with.

<<This buyer ALSO has most likely a EUROPEAN car, say a VOLVO, MERCEDES or BMW.>>

Lots of people do. What's your point?

<<This buyer ALSO most likely rides in a German or French saddle.>>

I'm not sure there is such a thing as an American made dressage saddle.

<<THis buyer also most likely attends a winter show circuit of some type (Indio, WPB, Ocala)>>

Maybe

<<This buyer IS NOT GOING TO GO TO THE "inexpensive" training center with their trainer to buy the $$,$$$ to $$$,$$$ horse you want to sell.>>

Again, maybe.

<<They WILL however LISTEN to THEIR trainer and GO TO places in the US that THEIR trainer has stated as being "good" places to shop for an AMerican bred horse.>>

They may also see a nice youngster at a show and ask about it.

<<They are NOT going to the farm that has a board rate of $350 out on pasture to buy their horse.>>

Most breeders don't have fancy farms, but most of them also don't take boarders.

<<People spending BIG MONEY want to shop where
they can see the horse fat, shiny, trained,
blanketed, clipped etc etc etc.>>

If we're talking youngsters not started under saddle, I don't want it fat, blanketed and clipped. I guess you haven't been reading some of the other threads about how SERIOUS breeders handle their horses daily, teach them to be good citizens, lead, load, stand for the vet and farrier. Probably most hobby breeders don't do that.

<<How to bring them up from foals is ONE thing, but what happens when they are 2+ or 3+ in entirely different.>>

When they are 3+ they are at a trainers.

<<The best thing you can do for yourself as a breeder is BREED QUALITY HORSES!>>

Most of my foals go Premium or very, very close. Last year I bred the hightest scoring colt in the country for my registry.

<<Who is regulating the breeders out there?>>

The Registries that inspect and brand foals!!! And yes, I HAVE seen TB mares turned down for approval with the ISR/OLNA. Also Paint and Appy mares if they weren't of sporthorse type, with good conformation and movement. Trust me, not every mare gets approved! For ISR/OLNA, you used to be able to have a foal named Premium if it got an overall score of 7.5. A few years ago, because the quality of the foals had improved significantly, you had to have an overall score of 8.0 in order to get Premium. Now, with another improvement in quality, it is getting harder and harder to get a score of 8.0. I'm envisioning the Premium threshold to rise to 8.5 in the not too distant future due to the improvement in quality.

Hunter people don't seem to care a hoot about inspections. Anyone can tell you they have a '10' mover. If it is inspected and registered, you have the scores on a piece of paper to prove the foal's quality. THAT's who's regulating breeders. At least the serious ones.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Thank you Tiki. You said, so very articulately, what I was thinking.

[Fairview Horse Center]

MSHUNTER
My point with the above 3 year old and the Sales Fest, is that this colt HAS been nicely started, by a professional. I believe he lives at Swan Lake. He has been shown, is clipped, fat, shiny, etc. That is the type of horse at the sale fest. So even if we get them to that point, it is still difficult to sell. Babies sell easy. Why wouldn't the trainers go to a Sales Fest here in the US to see 100 nice prospects for their clients? Is it such a "good ole boy" network, that they will only look at their friends farms? Are we as breeders bucking the "grease the palm", "give me a percentage" group that only deals with each other to keep those $15,000. to $20,000 horses selling for $50,000. to $100,000. so everyone gets their share?

[MsHunter]

OK.. i dont want to start a war but I REALLY do want to say something about the gosh darn inspections http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif
Every foal I have ever seen or heard of has gone premium.. Every mare has been accepted in the books.
Every stallion I know is "approved" with "high" scores.
Many are just not that nice. This is ALSO a business. Someone is getting paid to inspect paper brand register etc.
I have SEEN horses show on the line (and NO it does NOT just have to be on the line, this is only one example), with HORRENDOUS conformation and be far back in a line up of conformation horses and it IS PREMIUM!
I am sorry. Papers, premium, high scores, are I N D I C A T O R S!
I don't need to spend $1000 for a day for someone to tell me about WHAT I ALREADY KNOW I HAVE GOOD, BAD, OR INDIFFERENT and trust me I have bred some less than stellar babies, that I wonder just WHERE DID THAT COME FROM? That's life. They aren't all special.
The papers don't make them better, trainable, or winners in the ring.
The WORK STILL NEEDS TO BE DONE AFTER THE FACT!


Fairview I can't answer your question as to why no one 'came", but I can tell you that I have no idea what your talking about, so many of us are not in the know regarding the type sale your speaking of.

I also think very few horses are special horses taht sell for $$,$$$ and $$$,$$$ and that they clearly are EXCEPTIONAL in some way. Movers, jumpers, appearance, conformation I think they must have a total package.

I think you show ANY buyer a horse that jumps a 10 and it will be bought if it is rideable.

More the problem is whether it is 3 or 10, most just dont.

Jumpers? Well they aren't found at the age of 3. People want the real ones that jump the big sticks, those are usually at LEAST 6 years old.

Dressage, eventing, I have NO IDEA whatsover, not my thing, however if one I mine remotely moved like a dressagy horse, I'd sell it inexpensively immediately as it is NOT what I do!

[Oldenburg Mom]

Actually, Ms. Hunter, you are incorrect.

I recently had the same discussion with someone, thus went through one well known registries entire inspection, for 2003, counting the number of Premiums vs the number of foals.

The percent was exactly 38% Which is 62% short of being ALL.

Out of 10 mares, only two were premium. (That's 20%)

I would be happy to share my reference material if you wish.

And I agree, this should not be a war. Additionally, this subject is FAR from what I started the topic to discuss.

<<The papers don't make them better, trainable, or winners in the ring.>>

No, they don't. But gee, let me think. Which would I rather work with, spend my money on and spend my blood sweat and tears on. A premium colt, classified a stallion prospect, by those that see thousands of foals a year? Or ... what? What IS the alternative? Something that someone ... WHO? ... says is better? A trainer? Who sees how many a year?* http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

Or should I jusst stick my head in the sand, as so many do, and say "Oh, I'll only buy something under saddle."

I'll take my chances, thanks very much. And I'm sure I'll have some losers. You BET! But I'm not going to stop trying. Because, actually, it's the journey that's important, not the cash. At least for me, that's what's important.

-----------------
*
<span class="ev_code_RED">HUGE GIANT DISCLAIMER:</span> This example in no way disparages ANY trainer. It is used as an example only.

[KimPeterson]

The Premium babies that you don't like -- most of them where judged with dressage movement in mind...not hunter movement..as warmbloods as a rule are NOT bred to be hunters just some of them 'end up' being hunter movers but it is not the prefered genetics...also the conformation you are looking for I might not like as i like a horse with more bone/larger hoof, high set neck and to come from behind with impulsion..not to be long low on the forehand..Holsteiners are bred to be jumpers as are Dutch WB;s and yes people buy them as babies as prospects for the jumper ring...

Calm down...you don't like what the warmblood registries put out...some people do...I know of a TB/QH that was very TALL and "WON" on the line in the NJ Bred Hunters -- he is lame now with OCD and sold to someone for over $20,000 so NOT ALL WINNERS in hand are capable of performing the job and pinning when they are older either...at least the inspections look for straightness and soundness...not just who is handling or how well it stands ect....like the hunter breed shows - politics... so we could go tit for tat all night..why bother?

PLEASE CLOSE THIS it is POINTLESS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Oldenburg Mom]

Moderators ...

Please close this topic. Thanks very much.

[Fairview Horse Center]

The sale I am talking about was at Hedgeland. It had about 100 Warmbloods for sale, various ages, over the weekend. It was a "shoppers" sale, not an auction. It was a place that you could go, wander around, look at the horses, try them out, see a performance demo, talk to the breeder, probably talk to them about what they had still at home, and if interested, negotiate a private sale, or arrange to try the horse further after the sale. I am sure they were all cleaned up, and presented "shiny, clipped, in good weight, etc" I believe it was fairly well advertised - well, maybe not well enough http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

The 3 year old, is a very good mover, nicely put together, swaps his leads nicely on one side, most of the time on the other, and a good jumper. I think well worth the $20,000. price tag

[Oldenburg Mom]

Darlyn,

What a great idea. Any hard stats on who what where when why, etc?

Why can't people looking wake up? I don't getit.

[Fairview Horse Center]

The first day was all Hanoverians - put on by the Mid Atlantic Hanoverian Breeders. The 2nd day was mixed other breeds of Warmbloods. I would think people would want to fly in from all over the country to see that many in one place. I don't get it. If they want to go to Europe to see 100 horses, why not in their own back yard.

[Tiki]

$1000 to get a horse inspected???? I don't think so. It only costs $150 for a foal, and with ISR/OLNA only approximately 20% make Premium. Some registries name all foals that have been inspected a 'Premium' with the 1st Premium or Gold Premium being the highest and best quality. I have seen a number of mares turned down, and therefore their foals. There are several different 'worlds' of breeding and horses. As you said, MsHunter, you only know hunters. I would never try to tell you my way is the only way. Please stop telling us yours is.

[Linus]

j<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LLDM:
Third - Expectations need to set up properly. Too many riders are over or under horsed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The overhorsed I get, but what do you mean by "underhorsed" here -- in temperament? quality? athletic ability?

[Linus]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:
Darlyn,

What a great idea. Any hard stats on who what where when why, etc?

Why can't people looking wake up? I don't getit. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds like a great thing for buyers who are in that particular market. Was it advertised to them -- if not how could it be publicized? Buyers may well be ignorant but I don't think you can really blame them (us!) for failing to attend an event that flies under their radar completely. Breeders and riders/buyers run in different circles, and what is well known to one may not be to the other.

[Gold Dust]

Everybody needs to take a deep breath. Re-group re-organize and try to figure out what is going on. I'm thinking the mods should not close this because this is a debate. Plain and simple. No one has verbally attacked anyone.
Staying on that note and getting back on track [again, the thread has evolved once more http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif] we are talking about starting horses, trainer breeder rep and so on. If someone is going to draw up a 'request' and present it to the federation, they need to be armed with all opinions here. Once this 'request' is finished and presented the heat will be on. Why not get some of the heat done now?
Point one I see here. If we are all going to have a discussion, we need to drop the dressage/H/J/Eventing differences, don't we think? MSHunter is correct on the majority of H/J customers. Breeders need to know that. They are paying customers as well as dressage folks. If you want this discipline bias then move the whole thread to one forum. I look at this forum as all can be welcome with opinions because lets face it, breeders, you'll sell to who will buy from you no matter what discipline that client chooses-correct?
Now, a group of people have started a PT about breeders and the problems they have either finding trainers, vocabulary definitions and so on. Input anyone....? I see they have been busy so with my limited availability to the computer [1 computer 4 people in this house] I will see how you guys are doing.

One last lecteur-remember, many people do not see too many problems with the way our version of a horse industry has evolved. You can choose your discipline, choose your trainer, choose the horse you want to buy and so on. Most just go out and try to put an honest days work in to 24 hours. I have to defend trainers now. We have this job, either handed a horse or if lucky enough, start one that is going to start its journey of a real hard days work. We have to deal with daily curves in the road, still, with someone over our shoulders under their breath saying 'fix that'! And that is in multiples all day long. You have the right to go elsewhere if you do not like what you see. Still, the question has not been answered, what is a fair price for all of this? Breeders, we will buy horses from you if it is within a given price range. Help me here- what is your average price range broken down by age??

[LLDM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Linus:
j<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LLDM:
Third - Expectations need to set up properly. Too many riders are over or under horsed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The overhorsed I get, but what do you mean by "underhorsed" here -- in temperament? quality? athletic ability? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Linus - What was in my head when I wrote that was the talented young riders I see with little money riding any horse they can beg or borrow. They do a great job, but don't pin well in classes with better movers and/or jumpers (depending on the discipline).

The hope would be to get them hooked up with younger, less trained, but higher quality horses that they are apable of bringing along (with help/supervison) beause they do ride well enough to do a good job. That's what I was thinking anyway.

SCFarm

[Oldenburg Mom]

GD -

Please, don't get defensive about trainers. Do you think that trainers' livlihood will be negatively impacted by what we are doing here? (Or trying to do http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif) I'm getting that impression, perhaps incorrectly.

The question you've asked, "What is a fair price, etc." can't be answered here. It depends upon the trainer, the horse, the geography... a ton of variables.

The status quo may be working for the trainers, but it isn't working for the breeders—I should say *some* of the breeders. Ok. So, let's try and work something out that will help the breeder. But that is not going to negatively affect ANY trainer. In fact, I would expect an increase in business—certainly not the contrary.

Please, join us on the PT so we might get your input on the open letter.

[KimPeterson]

I don't think anyone is saying "cut" the trainers out. Sorry if you read that into the thread.

My comment before was just that we are all breeding for different sports, like different types, to generally attack a breed or type is pointless esp as warmbloods mature later ect..I understand that the general statement for the hunters is that the facility will make the difference in the presentation and thus the price.

Perhaps breeders need a "central" farm in each region that specializes in marketing young horses - that charges reduced rates - not full training fees for a baby - and everyone with babies at the farm contributes in on the cost of advertising ect..with a standard 10% commission paid to trainers and make it known.

Connections are what the breeders need, and with advertising and flyers/proper marketing to the trainers and bigger barns and the clients (they read mags!) American bred horses will be noticed. I think the Mid-West breeders group does a good job of advertising - perhaps the solution maybe more "groups" of smaller breeders getting together? Just brain storming....

[Gold Dust]

Maybe a bit defensive, but in a good way I hope. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif You have to understand, this originally started with the topic at Devon. Yes, it was a dressage in hand show but remember, this may pose problems for breeders that do cater to H/J. Anyone?? And, it was problems finding trainers and finding ones that are doing a job that breeders are looking for. Once someone said training was 50% a funny thing happened. We all became equal. Breeders and trainers.
One thing I learned from this. I did not look at it from the breeders side who maybe don't need the services of many trainers who make most of their living at shows and producing ribbon winning animals. So, in turn, my theory of going to shows and looking at us I figured out might not work. So, you have a dilema. People that break and start may not be as available in numbers at shows. I've got some ideas and I'll bring them over to your PT but we need New people to pop in with ideas. MSHunter and Silly mommy came on and gave you that program. Did not work for breeders. I personally think the service is great for owners who have trainers that do not want to do the breaking anymore. [that's me. I'll keep you guys in mind for future reference http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif] Breeders seem to need someone to come to your farm. That I 'think' the federation may be able to help you with if you put out a request for that.

Keeping Americans from getting on the plane. Good lord that will be tough. We know that. The Europeans will fight for our business as well. Example- went to Ireland- if you buy a horse from them, your plane ticket home is free. Drop in the bucket as expenses but it is there way of saying, Keep coming, and we, as a country are. Breeders need to compete with that. We are just as good as over the water. Here again lies what this all costs. Yes, no, maybe?

[MsHunter]

please, I dont need to be lectured on the "type" they look for at inspections, I understand completely the difference between that and a HB ring. OHF I expect more out of you than to say it is "political". Do you realize that MANY of the same horses that WIN with "those handlers" you speak of get sold?
Maybe open your mind up and ASK HOW? Maybe there is something we are doing right. Just maybe. It may not be perfect, but I know of quite a few people some that even read or post on these boards that sold horses at the ring that were yearlings. Some have done it repeatedly. So, there is one answer, they do sell at the shows. We have turned down offers at the ring, so have others.
Secondly, don't you think 20-38% is a HIGH Percentage for premium? OK so that isn't helping this thread however.
I dont have all the answers, but to get mad because I bring up thoughts and questions isn't right either. I haven't attacked anyone here.
I am just trying to show you a way a different marketplace operates and thinks.
Again, I really do not see trainers going to regional training centers with starters to buy horses.

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MsHunter:

Secondly, don't you think 20-38% is a HIGH Percentage for premium?

I haven't attacked anyone here.

I am just trying to show you a way a different marketplace operates and thinks.

Again, I really do not see trainers going to regional training centers with starters to buy horses. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I don't think it's high. I think it's reflective of the increasingly high mare base. Some of the site had zero premiums, some had ALL premiums.

You haven't attacked anyone? You have made statements such as:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Every foal I have ever seen or heard of has gone premium.. Every mare has been accepted in the books.

Every stallion I know is "approved" with "high" scores.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a statement that is guaranteed to raise the hackles on any breeder. What hubris. One of the registries has had only ONE stallion approved for 2004.

How a different marketplace operates? Wow, I didn't know that you were the spokesperson.

And, excuse me, I think trainers would go ANYWHERE to find horses for their clients, as long as there was quality to see.


MODERATORS WILL YOU PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD.

[LLDM]

Different models are going to work for different people. All I am saying is that we need to find a way to coordinate things better, educate the buyers better and get the right horses into the right situations. Those situations can and will all be different, but they should not be so hard to find.

Reinventing the wheel every time is not cost effective.

GD & MSHunter - No one is questioning the value you add to the horses you train. Some of us have said it is not the answer for us. We are here becasue we need different options, because we have different situations.

Breeders have been told over and over again that we need to bring prices down and training levels up to be competitive with Europe. So please don't think we don't value good training when we are exploring alternatives to do this.

I would love to have a great list of trainers (who I would not be able to afford for myself) to give to someone buying my young horses. If you want a great hunter (dressage, eventing, etc.) trainer, here is a list!

Conversely, if you have clients looking for young horses, I would love to be on your short list of "breeders of really nice talented horses" that you bring or send client to!

That is the point.

SCFarm

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