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View Full Version : Published "handbook" for a barn requires GPAs or ATH for junior riders!?!



Nickelodian
Dec. 2, 2003, 12:03 PM
I was reading a handbook for a barn that someone shared on another thread. The handbook itself is pretty good (http://www.huntcliffstables.com/hand_book.htm (http://www.huntcliffstables.com/hand_book.htm),)), and has some good information, but one of the rules is this:

Effective November 1st, 2003, riders 18 years and under MUST wear NEW International ATH or GPA helmets. These helmets can be purchased in any tack store and are usually between $100 and $350. We recommend Tack Tavern 1600 S. Main St, Alpharetta GA 770-475-8225. This is for your safety!! No exceptions!!

Requiring approved helmets is one thing (and a good thing)...but SKUNK helmets? I think that should be rider's choice.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
www.scatteredoaksfarm.com (http://www.scatteredoaksfarm.com)

[This message was edited by Nickelodian on Dec. 02, 2003 at 04:03 PM.]

Nickelodian
Dec. 2, 2003, 12:03 PM
I was reading a handbook for a barn that someone shared on another thread. The handbook itself is pretty good (http://www.huntcliffstables.com/hand_book.htm (http://www.huntcliffstables.com/hand_book.htm),)), and has some good information, but one of the rules is this:

Effective November 1st, 2003, riders 18 years and under MUST wear NEW International ATH or GPA helmets. These helmets can be purchased in any tack store and are usually between $100 and $350. We recommend Tack Tavern 1600 S. Main St, Alpharetta GA 770-475-8225. This is for your safety!! No exceptions!!

Requiring approved helmets is one thing (and a good thing)...but SKUNK helmets? I think that should be rider's choice.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
www.scatteredoaksfarm.com (http://www.scatteredoaksfarm.com)

[This message was edited by Nickelodian on Dec. 02, 2003 at 04:03 PM.]

2487lyf
Dec. 2, 2003, 12:13 PM
I don't like them either, but some people feel they are safer and look better b/c they are the IN thing now. Most BNT prefer that their riders are pretty uniform (makes them look more organized, helps with idenification sometimes, and looks more up to date). Just like most trainer prefer that their students have matching tack trunks and coolers/scrims/trunk covers in the barn colors... the more matching everything is, the better it looks IMO.) My trainer hasn't said that I have to be matching, but I don't wanna stand out like a sour apple!!!

That looks like an "elite" barn... little rediculous on the side charges if ya ask me! And $80/lesson??? Sheesh... If you can afford that, I would assume you would probablly want a GPA.

~*~Nattie~*~ (http://community.webshots.com/user/nattie2006)
*Maryland Clique**Warmblood (Hanoverian) Clique*
*Non-GPA Clique!**Ariat Clique!*

relocatedTXjumpr
Dec. 2, 2003, 12:22 PM
Huntcliff is pretty pricey. I once applied for a position there..said as an assistant trainer. turns out it was to tack and untack the ponies for the kids...and not school ponies, but their own ponies. Basicly a groom for spoiled brats. If you cant tack up your own pony you dont need one.

Im wondering if they have a deal withthe tack shop they listed...if they get their clients to purchase these helmets there. There are 2 other tack store next door to the one listed..and one right down the road...not to mention the State line tack about 5 minutes away.

B & B Sport Horses

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Dont put the cart before the horse, unless he knows how to push it of course. ~~ Pat Green

PlusTax
Dec. 2, 2003, 12:26 PM
That really surprises me! Huntcliff has always been a place for younger kids and mostly beginners, I actually thought they had a big school horse program. They do almost all the local GHJA shows but don't really do the A circuit that much (at least they're not known as one of the big A circuit barns) so I wonder if they're trying to change their image? Strange... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

**Kelsey**
&
**Notoriety**
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Madison
Dec. 2, 2003, 12:27 PM
Unusual rule. The trainer there posts here as "luckyduck" - perhaps she will see this and explain.

I'm surprised at the tack shop recommendation - 99% of the time I've received terrible service there, though they do have a good selection of coats and shirts.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://community.webshots.com/user/madisonav

relocatedTXjumpr
Dec. 2, 2003, 12:29 PM
That hand book is outragouse! The prices are unbelievable! Your board depends on how tall your horse is...the stalls are the same size...i know they did some remodleing...but i dont think its work over $500! It is in the back end of a subdivision.

You cant ride your horse without the trainers permission?

B & B Sport Horses

http://community.webshots.com/user/ga_jumpr

Dont put the cart before the horse, unless he knows how to push it of course. ~~ Pat Green

relocatedTXjumpr
Dec. 2, 2003, 12:30 PM
I thought it was mostly kids with ponies and beginers as well. I dont want to pay $100 for a helmet my kids will grow out of in two months!

B & B Sport Horses

http://community.webshots.com/user/ga_jumpr

Dont put the cart before the horse, unless he knows how to push it of course. ~~ Pat Green

lmlacross
Dec. 2, 2003, 12:31 PM
I also found it interesting that the monthly board rate is dictated by the height of your horse (pony, <16.3, >16.3). My horse eats half a can of pellets twice a day-- he's 16.3. I know many smaller horses who eat more than that, and most of those aren't even what I'd term "hard keepers".

How about setting board at one rate that will allow for the fact that some horses eat slightly more, others slightly less? Perhaps this is common practice in other parts of the country, but I thought it was pretty bizarre...

LML

*MidWest/Chicago Clique*

PlusTax
Dec. 2, 2003, 12:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madison:

I'm surprised at the tack shop recommendation - 99% of the time I've received terrible service there, though they do have a good selection of coats and shirts.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://community.webshots.com/user/madisonav

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not only are the people at the tack store incredibly rude and pretentious, they don't even sell GPAs or ATHs! I checked last week! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

**Kelsey**
&
**Notoriety**
**Plus Tax**
**Clearly Canadian**
**Pavielle**
**Angel Face**

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relocatedTXjumpr
Dec. 2, 2003, 12:42 PM
Im with you Just my style!! No snotty rules to keep up with!!

B & B Sport Horses

http://community.webshots.com/user/ga_jumpr

Dont put the cart before the horse, unless he knows how to push it of course. ~~ Pat Green

eclipse
Dec. 2, 2003, 12:50 PM
The one that got me is when they said that you can't ride your horse unsupervised without trainer's permission. Sorry, but my horse = my ride unless I request otherwise!!

"errr, ummm, oomph.....brain fart"!!

Nickelodian
Dec. 2, 2003, 12:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nattie:
I don't like them either, but some people feel they are safer and look better b/c they are the IN thing now. Most BNT prefer that their riders are pretty uniform (makes them look more organized, helps with idenification sometimes, and looks more up to date). Just like most trainer prefer that their students have matching tack trunks and coolers/scrims/trunk covers in the barn colors... the more matching everything is, the better it looks IMO.) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh I agree I LOVE matching tack trunks, drapes, coolers, etc...BUUT requiring skunk helmets based on them being "in" would be like saying. You must go out and buy a GRAY hunt coat, with a blue shirt, and wear it on friday, and you will all look the same. Yes Hunters are about conformity but they are also about showing your own style, and fashion (at least for me). But saying trainers like something b/c it is "in" (Tailored Sportsmen) and requiring it b/c of "saftey" are two totally different things.

I agree that some of the prices are ridiculous, but if people are willing to pay them fine. However charging for a different sized horse is very silly.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
www.scatteredoaksfarm.com (http://www.scatteredoaksfarm.com)

Release First
Dec. 2, 2003, 12:57 PM
I think that luckyduck was trying to do a kind thing to post her handbook for us to read. She wasn't saying this was how to do things but to give others an idea of what a handbook covered. Unless I plan to board or take lessons there I don't believe that I should comment on their prices. I too questioned why a barn would say that the students had to have a paticular brand of hat rather than just a certified one and if this thread hadn't turned into an attack we might have gotten an interesting answer. With the tone of this thread, I certainly would not bother to give us an answer if I was luckyduck.

When you are on your horse you can see forever. - Victor Hugo Vidal
Justice will only be achieved when those who are not injured by crime feel as indignant as those who are. - King Soloman (970-928B.C.)

Nickelodian
Dec. 2, 2003, 01:07 PM
Actually Luckyduck didn't post the handbook one of her boarders did. And I don't see anywhere on here where anyone "attacked" anybody. Any time information is put on the internet unless it is password protected it should be considered public information. Lesson prices for everyone from local yokels to GM have been discussed here before, so I don't see how this is any different.

However back to topic, it still seems pretentious to demand all riders have Skunk helmets, and to say it is b/c of saftey, when other non-skunk helmets are also approved by the same safety association.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
www.scatteredoaksfarm.com (http://www.scatteredoaksfarm.com)

Beau Peep
Dec. 2, 2003, 01:19 PM
The reason they say it is for your safety is because of the GPAs and ATH helmets have a high profile. If your head/helmet were to snap back on a normal helmet with the low profile, you could undergo serious damage, such as experiencing a seizure, paralysis, or even death of the impact was hard enough.
So when they say it is for your safety, THEY AREN"T KIDDING. I understand that it may seem like a stupid thing to look nice, but it isn't.

--------------------------
Founder of the Waiting For Those Flying Changes Clique! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
¤Cocoa Chanel¤

Jinx
Dec. 2, 2003, 01:24 PM
maybe this is a situation where they talk big but dont follow up their actions...ive known barns that want a certian lets call it"class" of customers post things like this...but they really dont follow through...and im not saying that this is the case its just a random thought...

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horsey mom
Dec. 2, 2003, 01:28 PM
Given that I'm the one that posted the original message about our handbook, and given that I had an active role in developing that handbook, and given that my daughter is one of the rider's at that barn, I thought it would be appropriate for me to reply to all the posts here. First of all, the helmet requirement is a SAFETY issue, not a fashion issue. The number one priority of our trainers is the safety of the riders and horses at the barn. Yes, this barn is at the back of a neighborhood, but what an incredible opportunity for people who don't wish to drive 45 minutes or more in Atlanta traffic to be able to ride! Regarding the comment that ours must be an "elite" barn, LMAO here! We're anything BUT elite! We're a neighborhood barn that happens to have a few kids who like to show, very few who show on the A circuit. Having been at one of the ELITE barns in Atlanta before coming here, I can tell you that our lesson and board prices are extremely reasonable. I'm not sure when relocatedTXjumpr looked at our barn, but our kids tack and untack their own rides - that's a requirement. Also, our trainer recommends that particular tack store because both she and her riders have had excellent experiences there in terms of selection, price, and assistance (especially for newbies like me). For example, when I went to purchase a new helmet for my daughter (without my daughter being present - who knew?!?), the clerk tried on my daughter's old helmet, then tried on every single helmet in stock until she found one that fit essentially the same way, hoping that it would indeed fit my daughter - which it did! My experiences at the neighboring tack stores have not been anything close to that service-oriented. More in a separate post . . .

horsey mom
Dec. 2, 2003, 01:34 PM
Sorry to follow up to my own post, but it was getting lengthy!

Someone posted something about not wanting to spend $100 on a helmet her kid was going to outgrow in a couple of months. My feeling is that my daughter's safety comes first! I'm already spending a freaking fortune on this sport - for sure, I'm willing to pay whatever it costs to protect my daughter's skull and brain! For parents who don't want to spend that kind of money, there are consignment shops nearby that carry used helmets (which are just fine by our trainer, btw). There are also older kids who pass down their equipment to the younger ones. And, for those of you who know our trainer, her own daughter has had many close calls in the ring, so safety is of the highest concern here!

Ok, one more thing, regarding the boarding prices. Yes, they are based on the size of the horse because bigger horses require more food/hay/etc. than small ponies, right? Interestingly, none of the boarders have complained. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

bkjumper
Dec. 2, 2003, 01:34 PM
Just have to weigh in here. First of all, if you don't like the rules or you don't want to spend the money - don't go there! When your kid plays organized sports of a different sort you are told what to buy and where to buy it - within certain parameters most times. As for the poster that doesn't think her child's head is worth $100, well that speaks for itself!

bkjumper

[This message was edited by bkjumper on Dec. 02, 2003 at 04:56 PM.]

RioTex
Dec. 2, 2003, 01:35 PM
Horsey mom, thanks for participating in the discussion.

I think my question is essentially the same as Nickelodian's. Why do you or the barn or trainer or handbook author think the "striped" hats are safer than any other approved on the market?

Trinity Hill Farm (http://www.trinityhillfarm.com)

OneonOne
Dec. 2, 2003, 01:37 PM
I had the same thought about the helmets when I first looked through the site. I realize that you have identified the ATH and GPA as safe helmets. However, there are plenty of other approved helmets out there that are just as safe and not nearly as pricey. I know some people who school in a cheapo Troxel, and save a "nice" helmet for showing. Why wouldn't that be acceptable? I have no problem with requiring kids to wear an approved helmet - but I do have a problem with requiring the most expensive, trendiest approved helmet. Not everyone has $200+ to drop on a helmet that will get scuffed up and dirty with everyday use. That does seem unreasonable to me.

JMO, of course.

Release First
Dec. 2, 2003, 01:39 PM
Quotes from the thread:

Im with you Just my style!! No snotty rules to keep up with!!

Perhaps this is common practice in other parts of the country, but I thought it was pretty bizarre...

That hand book is outragouse! The prices are unbelievable!

So they have been called snotty, bizarre, outrageous and unbelievable. Maybe attacked was too strong a word and certainly everyone has the "right" to write whatever they please and yes, it is on the web for public preview but I just didn't see the need for such strong language against things that are not even concerning the topic.

When you are on your horse you can see forever. - Victor Hugo Vidal
Justice will only be achieved when those who are not injured by crime feel as indignant as those who are. - King Soloman (970-928B.C.)

Nickelodian
Dec. 2, 2003, 01:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beau Peep:
The reason they say it is for your safety is because of the GPAs and ATH helmets have a high profile. If your head/helmet were to snap back on a normal helmet with the low profile, you could undergo serious damage, such as experiencing a seizure, paralysis, or even death of the impact was hard enough.
So when they say it is for your safety, THEY AREN"T KIDDING. I understand that it may seem like a stupid thing to look nice, but it isn't.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by a head and helmet "snapping back", but as I do recall GPAs and ATHs struggled to get the approval when they first came out. Not sure why, but I do know there is a long long list of approved velvet helmets both with low and high profiles that will protect as well as skunk helmets. Even some schooling helmets (ugly and plastic) that cost as little as 35 dollars. Riding is a dangerous sport, and even with the best protective gear on there are still dangers of death, seizures and all of the things mentioned above. I just don't see how a trendy skunk will prevent you from those maladies any more than a Charles Owens or a Troxel Grand Prix Gold. They all go through the same testing.

Oh and used helmets are never a great idea, who knows how many falls they've already had on them.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
www.scatteredoaksfarm.com (http://www.scatteredoaksfarm.com)

JrJmprPrinzess
Dec. 2, 2003, 01:43 PM
Ok, first of all, the different boarding prices for different size horses is HILARIOUS LMAO... I have NEVER heard of that before. The GPA thing, I love my GPA, but Charles Owens for hunter riders are just as safe. My next point, 80 bucks for a lesson w/a person that isn't a BNT is CRAZY, also not getting to hack your own horse w/out supervision (uhh, ya right). The rules are definitely bizarre and out there. At the last BNT barn I rode at the rules weren't even that out there, and the trainer charged less for his lessons. LMAO

Beau Peep
Dec. 2, 2003, 01:53 PM
Nickelodian-I have two differant models by troxel, and neither are as high as the GPA my friend has.

In the case of someone's head snapping back, I know of someone it happened to. Her horse chipped very hard to a large jump, and the back of her GPA ended up smacking against the back of her neck. When the paramedics finally got there, they said that a helmet with anymore length on the back, could have killed or paralysed her. She is now fine, and continuing to ride and show.

Both the CO and a Troxel helmet would have done that. The only helmets I know of as high as the GPA are on the ATH line.



As for expenses, the ATH is a whole lot cheaper than the GPA, so if you do have a problem with getting a $300 helmet, you can go that way. As far as I know they are just as cheap as any other nice approved helmet.

*Not meaning to flame and/or bash, just trying to give a reasonable explanation... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[edit to add - I think I might have said the wrong thing when I mentioned a "high profile", but what I mean is that the back is higher than other helmets]
--------------------------
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Lisa Cook
Dec. 2, 2003, 01:54 PM
I've had lessons from 2 people who were both on their respective national show jumping teams (one European, one North American) - and neither of them were $80 for a 1 hour private lesson. I simply can not believe that anyone would pay that much for a lesson if they knew what their money could purchase from other trainers.

As for some of the other rules...well, some people like having a very defined environment, I suppose, and they are probably quite happy there.

Nickelodian
Dec. 2, 2003, 02:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beau Peep:
_Nickelodian_-I have two differant models by troxel, and neither are as high as the GPA my friend has.

In the case of someone's head snapping back, I know of someone it happened to. Her horse chipped very hard to a large jump, and the back of her GPA ended up smacking against the back of her neck. When the paramedics finally got there, they said that a helmet with anymore length on the back, could have killed or paralysed her. She is now fine, and continuing to ride and show.

Both the CO and a Troxel helmet would have done that. The only helmets I know of as high as the GPA are on the ATH line.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right but on the converse of that, if someone falls of and their horse hits them in the back of the head in an area where the GPA doesn't cover but a CO does, then their life would only be saved by a helmet that goes lower in the back. There are always dangers of specific accidents happening that your particular helmet doesn't cover. But all approved helmets go through the same testing so overall they should offer the same "coverage", and "saftey".

ATHs don't fit all people (like me), I have a long oval head, which would fit better in a GPA if I was required to wear one. But, thankfully I can buy some other long oval helmet that costs 1/3 of a GPA that does actually fit (if I ever chose to go approved which I haven't yet).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
www.scatteredoaksfarm.com (http://www.scatteredoaksfarm.com)

Medievalist
Dec. 2, 2003, 02:08 PM
Sorry, but what a dumba$$ rule. Two to three years ago all the hunter people had a fit when Kent Farrington wore a GPA in a hunter class(I remember there was a HUGE thread on it here. They all thought it was awful), and now it is "required"? How stupid. I dont think the issue here is the price...lots of helmets cost more than $100, but just the fact that a certain model is the only option. That, to me, has nothing to do with safety.

And I think you may be wrong BeauPeep, but I'm no expert. The only helmets that I have seen that go lower in the back are the unapproveds, which negate that point anyways. I would have to look more into it, but I think that it is probably included on the testing standard.

GRE finished! Now must finish the applications.
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edited for clarity because my grammer is sooooo good

[This message was edited by Medievalist on Dec. 02, 2003 at 05:31 PM.]

Janet
Dec. 2, 2003, 02:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Ok, one more thing, regarding the boarding prices. Yes, they are based on the size of the horse because bigger horses require more food/hay/etc. than small ponies, right? Interestingly, none of the boarders have complained. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That is just plain not true. My 16h1.5" mare (3/4 TB)gets a less that 1/4 of the food, and less than 1/2 of the hay, of my 15h1" mare (1/2 TB). And the big one STILL elicits "when is she due?" comments.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

vxf111
Dec. 2, 2003, 02:35 PM
Boarding prices vary based on the horse's height? Maybe lesson prices should vary based upon the child's attentiveness?!? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I am just being snarky there. But maybe someone could explain why the height of your horse matters in terms of board if the size of the stalls are the same.

~Veronica

"The Son Dee Times"
"Sustained"

dab
Dec. 2, 2003, 02:39 PM
I think a barn does a great service to their clients and potential clients by publishing such a handbook --

But, I really think this helmet rule opens them up for a lawsuit -- First of all, there is no guarantee that either one of these helmets will fit, and if the helmet doesn't fit it's not safe -- Second of all, there is a published safety study in which the GPA was among the worst rated helmets (see http://www.mdirf.co.uk/enchapresults/) -- What happens if a junior wearing a GPA has a fall resulting in brain injury? -- I wouldn't want to be the one defending mandatory $100+ skunks when this study indicates that a $30 lightweight helmet provides better protection --

OnyxThePony
Dec. 2, 2003, 02:40 PM
The other viewpoint:
I require fitted approved helmets, go a great length to discuss types and stores to buy from... but some of the cheap crap junk garbage non-fitting etc etc (being polite here) the mothers drag in with their kids is just *beyond* my help.
At least you know an ATH is affordable, safe, and will either fit or won't, none of this bull**** unsafe crappy foamy padding etc.

Neither Fear Nor Anger

HSM
Dec. 2, 2003, 02:45 PM
Certainly not intending to defend the GPA, but that study, or at least the results you see in that link, are far from clear. It does not compare all helmets to one another, but rather groups certain helmets together into "categories" and "ranks" them against only the helmets in that group. Also, ranking by itself gives me no real information. What are the actual "test scores" for instance? I'd need to know more before I'd count this as conclusive from a statistical standpoint. JMHO.

------------------------------
I'm just the mom....

DreamBigEq37
Dec. 2, 2003, 02:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by eclipse:
The one that got me is when they said that you can't ride your horse unsupervised without trainer's permission. Sorry, but my horse = my ride unless I request otherwise!!

"errr, ummm, oomph.....brain fart"!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Now- we had a rule like this at my old barn (the rule was you can't ride unsupervised unless you have an adult with you) which I thought was fair and for safety's sake. I don't think that is that outrageous of a rule.

*~*~Lauryn*~*~*~
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RockinHorse
Dec. 2, 2003, 03:00 PM
I think that it is wonderful that this barn puts its handbook on the web site. I don't happen to agree with a number of their rules, but they are very upfront about them as well as their prices so people who don't agree can look elsewhere.
That being said, I am surprised by the helmet rule. The safest approved helmet is a well fitting one. Limiting the riders choice to only one of two reduces the chances of being able to get the best fit. If safety is really the issue, why not just require approved helmets?

~~ Does killing time hurt eternity?~~

COTHAlter
Dec. 2, 2003, 03:09 PM
"Effective November 1st, 2003, riders 18 years and under MUST wear NEW International ATH or GPA helmets. These helmets can be purchased in any tack store and are usually between $100 and $350. We recommend Tack Tavern 1600 S. Main St, Alpharetta GA 770-475-8225. This is for your safety!! No exceptions!!"

THIS from a barn that used to have a picture of their STALLION, with a kid sitting bareback on him wearing no helmet at all? Not an approved isn't good enough, it's got to be a GPA. Please!!!

COTHAlter
Dec. 2, 2003, 03:10 PM
The pic is no longer up and has been replaced with some more professional and appropriate images. But I remember that photo!

OneonOne
Dec. 2, 2003, 03:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DreamBigEq37:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by eclipse:
The one that got me is when they said that you can't ride your horse unsupervised without trainer's permission. Sorry, but my horse = my ride unless I request otherwise!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Now- we had a rule like this at my old barn (the rule was you can't ride unsupervised unless you have an adult with you) which I thought was fair and for safety's sake. I don't think that is that outrageous of a rule.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There's a difference between riding unsupervised (which I agree can be a safety issue), and being unable to ride your own horse without a trainer's permission, which is how I interpretted the rule...

From the website...
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>No one may ride without specific permission from a trainer.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Small Change
Dec. 2, 2003, 03:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Just My Style:
This is why I keep my horses at home. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly!

Half the failures in life arise from pulling in one's horse as he is leaping -Julius Hare

tyedyecommando
Dec. 2, 2003, 03:41 PM
So did we ever decide why a ATH or GPA is safer than any other approved helmet (besides having a stripe)? I am not completely buying the "high profile" explanation. It sounds like that girl's helmet did not fit properly to begin with and the last time I checked, EMT were not doctors. Perhaps her neck might have whipped back so fast that the whiplash could have snapped her neck, but it seems a low profile would have stopped her head sooner? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

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ok
Dec. 2, 2003, 04:31 PM
I understand the uniform look... I mean at shows we all have to wear velvet covered hemets and we all use coolers and stuff that match. But thoes helmets are kinda.. well ugly. They wouldn't be bad if they didnt have that stripe or if they were covered. I think the hunter ring needs to get back to what hunters are in the first place. Hope that thoes GPA wearing barns are happy! haha Atleast nobody can be made fun of... right!

Allison *Montego* *Chubby*
www.blackwaterequine.com (http://www.blackwaterequine.com)
^^Our Home!^^

Non-GPA Clique
Adult Pony Rider Clique
Thoroughbred Clique

critter915
Dec. 2, 2003, 04:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by relocatedTXjumpr:
I thought it was mostly kids with ponies and beginers as well. I dont want to pay $100 for a helmet my kids will grow out of in two months!

B & B Sport Horses

http://community.webshots.com/user/ga_jumpr

Dont put the cart before the horse, unless he knows how to push it of course. ~~ Pat Green<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

let alone $350 http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

GatoGordo
Dec. 2, 2003, 04:44 PM
At risk of getting flamed myself, I think the poster referring to the price wasn't saying she wouldn't want to shell out money to protect her hypothetical child's head. There is no proof that the GPA's and ATH's are any safer than the $50 skid lids, so it doesn't make sense to her (or myself) to shell out that kind of money just to follow a trend.

There are only two types of eventers out there: Those who have fallen in the water jump and those that will. -- subk
Founding Member, Bird Nerd Clique; Eventing Yahoo In Training; formerly known as BostonGold

relocatedTXjumpr
Dec. 2, 2003, 04:47 PM
Just for the record..I dont have any kids. These days people are taking an issue and flaming others on their won opinion. its a public board and EVERYONE is entiitled to their opinion. I know how much this sport costs, i have been in it for 17 years, if there is a helmet that is approved and just as safe, but cheaper because its not the GPA name...thats what i get. Stop flaming and start dealing with different opinions.

B & B Sport Horses

http://community.webshots.com/user/ga_jumpr

Dont put the cart before the horse, unless he knows how to push it of course. ~~ Pat Green

critter915
Dec. 2, 2003, 05:10 PM
wow i hadn't thought of it that way. thanks gatogordo. i just thought she was saying how she wouldn't shell out that much money for a helmet the kid would grow out of in a couple months...(i did catch that the kid was hypothetical)

poltroon
Dec. 2, 2003, 05:17 PM
The ENHAP results:

Here is some more info on that test:

http://equest.remus.com/NewsArticles/RidingHatEvaluationTestin.html

This one is from a Troxel press release but does appear to have additional information:

http://www.bridleandbit.com/artman/publish/article_2373.shtml

I have never seen any published data to suggest that the skunk helmets are safer than the other approved helmets.

Looking4Trouble
Dec. 2, 2003, 05:27 PM
I would also like to know why out of the many approved riding helmets the ath and gpa's are required? My family does not have enough money to buy me one. Right now I have a troxel, which I can put a velvet cover on. I don't know if its true or not, but I've heard that a new test said that the troxels past with a higher score than the GPA's? Anyone know if this is true? Just because my parents don't want to spend a fortune on buying me a helmet right now does not mean that they don't want to pretect my head or skull.Actually its quite the opposite. My mom is always worried about something happening to me. ~Charlette~

Lost In Space
Dec. 2, 2003, 05:51 PM
I must chime in here on the helmet issues. I own a tack store and also have a daughter who shows. When the approved helmets were required in 12/01 my daughter loudly protested all approved helmets. She was 11 at the time and had never worn an approved one before. Trust me, we tried every ASTM approved helmet on the market. The International ATH fit her the best, because of head shape. She tried the GPA's but the didn't feel right to her. I feel that the back harness on these helmets might hold the helmet on better than a 3 point harness. I also like the softer back and the softer chin strap on this style. Another plus in the "skunks" are they they have some air vents inside and there is a big difference in the heat inside these opposed to the CO's or other without vents. I know the price of the "Skunks" have increased since the beginningbut all helemts have gone up in price. I find that most riders feel that the skunks fit more securely than some other helmets for a majority of the riders I see. I understand other helemts fit well too! This is just my opinion.

flypony74
Dec. 2, 2003, 06:41 PM
I think that by limiting the choices you are sacraficing safety, as any correctly fitted, well-cared for approved helmet will be much safer than one of a mediocre fit. I have worn Lexington helmets for years, as they fit me better than any others that I have tried (and I used to run a large tack shop, was trained in fitting helmets correctly, and had the opportunity to try on MANY different ones). To say that my comfortable, well-cared for (like, not left in a hot car, replaced every few years as a helmet should be, etc), properly fitted, ASTM/SEI approved Lexington is less safe is absurd.

I finally set up a photo album...take a look!
http://community.webshots.com/user/flypony74

WestWindsJr
Dec. 2, 2003, 07:33 PM
1. "The lesson prices" Maybe you should read past the 1st four lines, we try and discourage once month riding. That is why our lesson prices are so high for lesson if paid for one at a time, we dont have time to waste waiting to see if they my decide to show up that week. If you take one lesson a week it is $45.00 for the hour group and $55.00 for a half hour private. If you take more then one lesson a week or live in "Huntcliff" your lesson go down to $35.00-$40.00 and $45.00-$50.00.
We dont give our lessons on junk, all of our lesson horses are well trained show horses that the kids can take and do well with at the Local GHJA or "A" shows with.

2. "You cant ride your horse without the trainers permission?" Yes you can we have that rule for safety, that question is always asked by boarders or potential boarders. Any one can ride there horse when ever they want, but an "Unsupervised ride" is when there is no other adult on the grounds. I.E: If a mom want to drop there 12yo off to ride and leave and there are no other adults around it is not allowed. But if one of our 16 yo boarder want's to ride with no one around it is all fine and dandy with us if you follow the rules. AND SAFETY and WELL-BEING FOR HORSE AND RIDER COMES 1ST! I dont think I need to explain this further of why you dont let you kid alone at the barn with no one around.....

3. Our board prices, I am not even going to get into that one. It is a "no brainier" .......

4. "Our Helmet rule" We had an error before printing and meant to add the "Tipparery Sportage and the International Pro-Rider were also allowed. We hand wrote it into our hand books and Will edit the web site copy.
We in no way want our rider to look a like, you should see the helmet covers we all wear! It is for safety, in the last year we have had one to many "schooling Helmets" just fall of our riders when riding or falling off. Or the harnesses not being adjusted right, The helmets all have an easy none slipping harness. Once adjusted they STAY! Also they have a lower back to help prevent "whiplash" and hold the helmets more to the head with less unsecured movement. We also have a good hand-me-down program at our barn and if helmet is less then two years old and have not been fallen in we re-sell them with in the barn.....

5. The "Kick back" you all think we may get from the tack store, well your wrong..... We recommend them because of there consumer service. We also willingly tell were the other stores are. You just have to get to know "Neil":-)

6. "RelocatedTXJumpr" We never have and never will have "grooms" or tack up ponies for our kids not even the lesson ones. If you cant tack up your own horse and care for it Happily after work then dont come here. We teach and Help all our kids LEARN how to care for the equine's, even if it takes me twenty times to teach a kid to tack up it gets done....
I dont know when you EVER interviewed for a job with us and nor have we ever looked for help..... Maybe you were there when Kathy was there.... Also I know a thing called "free speech" but if seems to me you have some sort of issue with us, if you do let me know please! Other wise I dont see why you have five post in this topic with only bad things to say, and it looks like you had to do a lot of thinking about how to make us look bad..........

We have a very happy family barn, our kids ride in PJ's over there pants in the cold, we have cookouts, fieldtrips, sleep over's, fundraiser to help needy kids, workdays, clinics and anything else you can think of.... Your all welcome to come see "the place by the river" and see all the work WE have all put into it...... Thank you to all that have seen our reasoning of why we have our rules like we do:-)

Beau Peep
Dec. 2, 2003, 07:55 PM
I guess I can kinda see where this is goin...

Yes, I guess if the back WASN'T so high, her head wouldn't have snapped back. So forgive me, I didn't consider that. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

But in the barn's defense, the GPA, ATH, and others mentioned, are all very well fitted, snug helmets. For those in which they fit, the never move on their head. I have borrowed one for a show, and [except for the fact that it was a smidge too small] loved it, it didn't move, it was just as cool as my schooling helmet, and was very comfortable. And I do like the CO helmets, I've never worn one, but from what I know, they weren't as snug on the people's heads as the GPAs were.

But all the helmets mentioned and very safe... for one reason or another.

--------------------------
Founder of the Waiting For Those Flying Changes Clique! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
¤Cocoa Chanel¤

eqnjumperrider
Dec. 2, 2003, 08:36 PM
Just out of curiousity, could you please explain why the heck you charge different prices for boarding, i have never heard of that.

Court@HJ-OH
Dec. 2, 2003, 10:22 PM
Now you guys are saying that these helmets fit everyone the best. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif When I use to hear everyone say that it gave them headaches.

AND!!!!!!!!!!!! This helmet single handedly started the hair in a ponytail trend in an effort to make it fit better!

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

**Courtney**

perf
Dec. 2, 2003, 11:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rider's mom:
have a daughter who shows. When the approved helmets were required in 12/01 my daughter loudly protested all approved helmets. She was 11 at the time and had never worn an approved one before.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Really? So your 11-year-old daughter was riding with decoration on her head, and no real protection? Didn't that scare you a bit?

Sing Mia Song
Dec. 3, 2003, 03:26 AM
I just went and tried on every dang approved helmet at The Surrey, and believe me, I wanted an ATH so badly I could taste it.

But the sad fact is that it doesn't fit me. The International Royale in a long oval, and the CO Showjumper are the only ones that do.

I would think that the most important requirement for a helmet be that it fits and passes the "rock and roll" and head shake tests. Doesn't matter if it covers the back of your neck if it shifts or comes off before you hit the ground!

***********************************************
Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.
-Mark Twain

horsey mom
Dec. 3, 2003, 04:05 AM
Yeah, what SHE said! (thanks WestWindsJr for offering further explanation).

I really was just trying to offer our handbook as a starting point for the trainer looking to create a manual for her riding program. It's the handbook for OUR BARN. If it doesn't suit your needs/wants, there are certainly tons of other barns and trainers to choose from, especially in our area of the world. Our trainers go out of their way to help each and every rider (and their families) reach their potential each and every time they are at the barn and/or at a show. These trainers are truly phenomenal imho, and I value what they openly give to my daughter in terms of skills learned and passions fostered.

Just My Style
Dec. 3, 2003, 04:12 AM
This has been bothering me... I am all for hand me downs, really I am. I think that until parents know for sure that their child is really interested in riding, it is worth it to buy used. In fact, my first show outfit was from a thrift store. HOWEVER, it is different for a child to wear someones old breeches than it is for them to wear a helmet. A helmet is a safety device. Even if the helmet never sustains a fall from a horse, the wear and tear on it over time (including being dropped from a tack box on concrete aisle) can deteriorate it. Just because it looks fine on the outside does not mean that it is 100% perfect or safe. Personally, I feel that a child would be safer in brand new out-of-the-box approved, less expensive (or less trendy) helmet than in a used helmet that you really don't know what has been done with it, regardless of the guarantees that it has "never been in a fall".

GA Clique/Drafties Clique
Live Large- Ride a Drafty!

relocatedTXjumpr
Dec. 3, 2003, 05:03 AM
westwindjr...I went there about 2 years ago. before they had started remodling...the isles were still dirt if that helps. I was told it was for a beginer teaching position..they needed someone who could do the lessons while they were away at big shows in FL. I do not remember the name of the person I spoke with, it was a woman as Pieree was not there. I was told I would tack up ponies and help the kids to the ring. I was also told that I would untack the ponies and help the kids cool them out after the lessons...maybe this was for a summer camp thing? I do not thing it was called huntcliff then..just westwind. Maybe she was just feeding me full of crap to see if I'd take the job anyway. It was for no money, but lessons.

It is your handbook and you are entitled to put whatever you want in it. I have my horses at home and I dont have to spend x-amount of money to "fit in" here...nor do I have to put up with your flaming or anyone elses. If I dont like a place than its based on my opinion and with any dealings I have had with that place. Not everyone is going to like your barn or your barn rules....There are tons of people here that do not agree with the training methods of my former trainer in TX...but there are some here who ride with him and like him. Thats life, get over it. This barn is pricey for many...maybe not all, but many. The boards rates for different sized horses does not make any sense to me..and yes you do need a helmet rule...but why not allow all approved helmets...or at least something with more of a price range and style...what fits my head may not fit a 10 year old.

And whos to say that a child who rides for two months or so will want to ride the next month? You can sell their stuff, i belive there is a consignment place next to Tack Tavern...but like it was posted early..i dont think buying a used helmet is a good idea.

So...once again...I am entitled to my opinion...as you are yours...you dont know me as i dont know you. I do not ride at your barn, nor have i been there in lets say two years, it could have been longer. I did read the handbook and if i was a customer looking through different websites and had not EVER been to this bran..i would not consider it. too pricey and not enough explanation as to why rules are the way they are.

We need rules to keep us and our horses safe...thats a no brainer.

Stop with the flaming...this board has become unwelcoming...a guestion is asked or an opinion is voiced and you are imediatly critized or judged. I have posted here a while and it seems to be getting worse.

I dont dislike Huntcliffe...nor have I ever posted that I didnt...it is not the barn for me and I simply have posted why. AS the song goes...GET OVER IT!

~~B

B & B Sport Horses

http://community.webshots.com/user/ga_jumpr

Dont put the cart before the horse, unless he knows how to push it of course. ~~ Pat Green

JRG
Dec. 3, 2003, 05:18 AM
Although I wouldn't fit into a barn like this but I applaud them for writing it down. We need more barns to write all the fees down so you know exactly what the expenses are going to be.

Most people I know don't mind paying for services rendered but they like to be for warned about such expenses. Publishing a "handbook" lets all people involved with the barn know that everyone is being billed equally or specifically through the book.

I think good job on writing it down and having it available for everyone.

Blinky
Dec. 3, 2003, 07:14 AM
Geez People. Did everyone have too much turkey last week? There is no need to be witchy about their handbook and rules. If you don't like it, you don't ride there.

Nickelodian
Dec. 3, 2003, 07:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WestWindsJr:

3. Our board prices, I am not even going to get into that one. It is a "no brainier" .......

4. "Our Helmet rule" We had an error before printing and meant to add the "Tipparery Sportage and the International Pro-Rider were also allowed. We hand wrote it into our hand books and Will edit the web site copy.
We in no way want our rider to look a like, you should see the helmet covers we all wear! It is for safety, in the last year we have had one to many "schooling Helmets" just fall of our riders when riding or falling off. Or the harnesses not being adjusted right, The helmets all have an easy none slipping harness. Once adjusted they STAY! Also they have a lower back to help prevent "whiplash" and hold the helmets more to the head with less unsecured movement. We also have a good hand-me-down program at our barn and if helmet is less then two years old and have not been fallen in we re-sell them with in the barn.....


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

#3 -- I have looked at many barn websites all over the country to get ideas for the one I designed. From California to upstate New York, I never saw different board rates for different sized horses. I'm not critizing your board rates, if you can get people to pay what you charge good for you. But calling it a "no brainer" is somewhat presumtious as the best of the best don't even do that. However maybe you will start a new trend and all the barns will be doing it. My barn charges for extra hay and extra grain (beyond 2 cans and 2 flakes) which some of the larger horses require, but not ALL big horses eat a ton, and some ponies are hard keepers.

#4 -- So you've expanded your horizons to allow 4 helmets. Wow, I'm impressed. You still haven't given a real reason that the rule isn't just "approved" helmets. You say that you had one too many schooling helmet fall off b/c the harness wasn't adjusted right. Well that is mostly the trainer's fault as most kids don't know how to adjust the harness. Same thing would happen if a kid rode in an improperly adjusted GPA, ATH, tipperary, or International Pro-Rider. Now I agree that kids should own their own helmet for fit and saftey, and they should get help when adjusting the harness, however I still don't understand why ANY approved helmet isn't OK.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
www.scatteredoaksfarm.com (http://www.scatteredoaksfarm.com)

[This message was edited by Nickelodian on Dec. 03, 2003 at 10:35 AM.]

nycjumper
Dec. 3, 2003, 07:28 AM
A couple quick comments. IMO, $80 an hour for a private lesson isn't outrageous. It all depends on your location. Here in NY, that would be quite reasonable, especially if they have good facilities.
Unsupervised riding - it says you are allowed to ride unsupervised once you have been approved by a trainer to do so. Seems reasonable to me that they want to ensure that the riders have attained a certain level of competency before they send them off. I didn't take it that people needed to ask permission every time they went off, just that first time. And just b/c someone owns a horse doesn't mean they can ride it... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
Board - that does seem strange to me. Height definitely doesn't determine how much a horse eats... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
Helmuts - well, my initial reaction was that was ridiculous but as the poster from here explained, they do allow other helmuts, just wasn't put on their website.

I think its great that they have this available. It allows prospective students to read & determine if this is the type of place they would feel comfortable. If not, they don't need to bother going to check it out.

Nickelodian
Dec. 3, 2003, 07:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by perf:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rider's mom:
have a daughter who shows. When the approved helmets were required in 12/01 my daughter loudly protested all approved helmets. She was 11 at the time and had never worn an approved one before.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Really? So your 11-year-old daughter was riding with decoration on her head, and no real protection? Didn't that scare you a bit?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually up until the rule came out you hardly ever saw any pony kid with an approved helmet on. And when I was showing in the Large Juniors I don't think I ever saw an approved helmet. Approved helmets are a good thing, but really no one wore them much before the rule.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
www.scatteredoaksfarm.com (http://www.scatteredoaksfarm.com)

Magnolia
Dec. 3, 2003, 08:02 AM
For a parent, who knows zip about horses, knowing exactly what to buy and where to obtain it is probably a huge help. It also alleviates the need to buy a whole new outfit when showtime comes up.

I'd never board there, but if I was a clueless parent with a hectic schedule, I'd appreciate the direct cut and dry rules the barn has.

The only thing that bothers me is what if those hats don't fit your kid?

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

lmlacross
Dec. 3, 2003, 08:22 AM
"3. Our board prices, I am not even going to get into that one. It is a "no brainier" ......."

I disagree-- I don't think it's a "no brainer" at all. My horse is a very easy keeper-- gets 1/2 can of pellets twice a day, plus hay. This is less than many horses smaller than he, and he'd be in your 16.3 plus bracket.

What's not making sense to me-- given that horses' size is not ALWAYS directly proportional to their feed intake, why wouldn't you choose to set your rate for board at one universal rate that took variable feed levels into account? Bearing in mind I have never seen your facility (so this statement is meant to be generalized) if I had a small pony in a 12 x 12 stall (when all the other stalls were 12 x 12), I wouldn't feel entitled to any break in board because my animal was smaller than the others.

If it were my barn (which it's not, so you can obviously set up your fee structure in whatever manner makes the most sense to you), I'd set my one rate for full board high enough to cover my expense for horses and ponies who may eat more. By way of illustration, I direct a resident summer camp with 100 girls. We serve three hot meals a day in a combination of buffet and family style, and girls may eat until they're full. We don't charge parents of older/taller girls more because we expect they'll consumer more of our food (therby creating more work for our food service staff and causing us to increase our order quantities), we simply set our rates at a level that we know is sufficient to cover our cost. Just something to think about.

P.S.- To the person who characterized my post and those of others as "attacks" and "witchy", I think that being critical and posing meaningful questions is different from being "witchy". If you put business information on the net, it is likely to be viewed by more than just your current client base, and is subject to public discussion and debate. When I initially posted, I had no idea that this barn's trainer posts here- just had some genuine interest in the hows and whys attached to the various policies at issue here. No witchy attacks here!

LML

*MidWest/Chicago Clique*

Blinky
Dec. 3, 2003, 08:40 AM
I didn't name any names. However I think posting "meaningful questions" and offering criticism (even though they didn’t ask for it) is different than using the adjectives:
outrageous
ridiculous
snotty
dumba$$.

luckyduck
Dec. 3, 2003, 09:01 AM
I am jumping in this late....and didn't even care to repsond, but felt I owed it to the people at the stable to step forward and speak up about the trashing that has been going on for 4 pages!

Yes, I am one of the trainers at Huntcliff and I own West Wind Farm, Inc. which operates Huntcliff... I have never hidden behind a screen name nor will I ever. I don't expect ANY of you to agree or disagree with us or our handbook.

And for the poster that made the statement "isn't that the stable that had a junior riding a stallion without a helmet".......maybe you should check your facts BEFORE you ramble on. Yes, a rider (who is 18 by the way) with a HELEMT on but had no shoes on, is what everyone made the huge fuss over and it was on the WEST WIND FARM web site NOT the Huntcliff Web site. Just so you know the WHOLE story!

Unlike most stables, I as the trainer am NOT the "boss". I am governed by a board of officials that I have to answer to.

After two full seasons at Huntcliff, we as a board, decided that to provide a better service for the clients that are at our stable.... or would be at our stable in the future....we would provide a handbook with needed information.

This handbook was not designed for any other stable other then ours. We took life experience, gripes, concerns and just plain common sence and put it on paper. Were we expecting it to be PERFECT the first time, ........????????? Heck no! Live, learn and make changes accordingly!

About the helmets, NEVER said they HAD to have a $300.00 helmet because it was "the best", and because a paragraph about other suitable helmets was accidently left out, we are picked at......we have hand written (as well as changed on the web site) in the current handbooks about other suitable, "dummy proof" (and I am sure I will be blasted for that statement) helemts that are EASIER to adjust and keep adjusted.

I guess I just got sick of seeing schooling helmets with three point sytems, flopping all over the place or sailing off into the great blue yonder just before the kid hits the ground!

As for the kick back for the trainer comment at the tack store!

I wish....but I guess with all the trainer "kick backs" it would be hard to imagine there are some out there that DON'T get them!

IF you actually read the ENTRIE paragraph it states that "these helments can be purchased in ANY tack store" but that we reccommend Tack Tavern.

MOST of our clients already have a favorite tack store and like we care who they go to....I shop for the best deals...and I am HOPING they do as well. (Just for those of you out there that said we REQUIRE GPA's..... Tack Tavern DOESN'T even carry them!)

Funny how NOT A SINGLE person has made a comment about the fact that we DO NOT charge a commission to buy horses for our cleints either! Yiks...don't want to go there now do we!

And to answer the question about the board prices.... Facts are plain and simple..... ponies don't eat as much as horses. So we took a basic care fee and charged ACTUAL costs for feed and hay over and above actual care costs. (ie: actual care costs are things like shavings, manual labor, water, electricity, insurance, repairs, etc....) averaged it all out and came up with three different prices.....our system, our way...and it happens to work for those who board at our stable. And the "size" reference was just a standard, we have boarders that have have horses that pay pony prices because they have super easy keepers, but you would only know that if you boarded at our stable.

relocatedTXjumpr- I don't know who you are, but if you EVER interviewed with us....I don't remember you. The ONLY position we EVER put an ad out for was a Saturday/Sunday HELPER to assist the trainer with our busiest days so that parents and kids were NOT lost and were being taught how to tack up the ponies and this was a paid position. I will not nor have I ever had "prissy" kids who can not care for their own animals!

And for the uniform look...... ya....right....I like purple and green....my opionion, my colors....now that you know that, maybe you should look at our web site and see the collage of colors that the kids use to express themselves or just look for us at a show and see that we usually look like a patchwork quilt and ARE PROUD OF IT! I have always ecnourage my kids to "do their own thing" and stand behind their opinions.

So to finish off this reply, we put our handbook out in public view so that people could have a choice as to whether they wanted to be a part of our stable family or not. Up front, they know what they are getting into, they know what our "rules" are and how we function as a group. If they don't like the way we do it, at least they knew BEFORE they got involved.....

There are many trainers out there and many stables. That is a gift, not a burden. Just means there is something out there for EVERYONE! I don't expect you to want to come to us because of our handbook or because of who we have training... we want people who WANT to be at the stable....to participaite with us and if it isn't your bag of oats, then you have the right to go to another feed store.

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www.westwindfarm.net (http://www.westwindfarm.net)
Home of the real Luckyduck & West Winds Ricky Martin

Cinnamon Girl
Dec. 3, 2003, 09:23 AM
Lucky Duck, I'm sure Huntcliff is a very nice facility and whatever the rules, requirements, or recommendations are--that is Huntcliff's business, Acually, I have edited to add that I think the handbook is an excellent idea. Everything, rules and expectations are upfront and very detailed. Also, I have to say that charging ones board based on horse size is a good idea. Why should someone with a 15H easy keeper have to pay as much as someone with a 17H high maintenence hard keeper? The 17H eats more, poops more, and takes up more space.


However as someone who owns a horse in the Atlanta area, I just have to say the the Tack Tavern is the LAST place where I'd spend my hard earned cash.

[This message was edited by Cinnamon Girl on Dec. 03, 2003 at 12:36 PM.]

luckyduck
Dec. 3, 2003, 09:33 AM
Ugh...last thing...

Plus Tax- NOT trying to change our image.... DEFINATELY NOT! And thanks for noticing that we do try to support the beginners.

The helmet change was because with 70 plus kids a week and only 1 trainer doing 25 lessons and the other covering the rest......I WAS not able to keep up with staying after the kids to adjust the three point harnesses all the time. They may have started off adjusted but as the kids went to scratch their heads or adjust something, the harness were loosinging with every tug.

My own daughter had a terrible accident this past summer on her pony and without her helemt that WAS properly adjutsed like it was, she would probably not be here today. It still left horrible bruising across her jaw, but her brain was protected. She was in the hospital for 3 days.....

Then I watched another kid a few weeks later come off her horse and as her shoulder hit the ground, her floppy 3 point system helemt went rolling away and her head took full impact on the ground.

I guess it just made me start thinking about helemts that have less straps to adjust and easier to stay put.... NOT to make everyone match.

www.westwindfarm.net (http://www.westwindfarm.net)
Home of the real Luckyduck & West Winds Ricky Martin

RugBug
Dec. 3, 2003, 09:41 AM
Luckyduck:

I just wanted to say that when I saw it was your barn I thought to myself, "Well, they must have a reason. I don't agree, but there must be a reason."

You've never seemed to be outrageous in any of your posts and many times I find myself nodding along...agreeing. So, more power to ya.

And for everyone else, the Tipperary is a $60 dollar helmet...and has the full harness, which seems to be what this particular barn feels most comfortable with. Most other approved helmets, including the cheaper one (Aegis, Troxel, etc) have a three point harness. Maybe the rule should be stated as 'An approved helmet with a full harness' (examples: GPA, ATH, Tipperary, etc).

luckyduck
Dec. 3, 2003, 09:43 AM
Rug Bug THANKS http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I also think that the way your worded your statment about the helmets is EXACTLY what we need to do....

This goes back to my statement when I said "we make changes as needed" to make the handbook better.

www.westwindfarm.net (http://www.westwindfarm.net)
Home of the real Luckyduck & West Winds Ricky Martin

Ash
Dec. 3, 2003, 09:52 AM
I think a hand book is a great idea. Hey, it is their barn, they can run it however they want. As a boarder who has often gotten in trouble for "not following the rules" even though I had NO idea what they were, I would have welcomed some guidelines to follow. One of the major problems in this business is lack of communication! I can't tell you how many times I have opened a bill and been confused about the charges. Well, since I have never had anything to refer to (such as a price list) it has left me in the position of contacting my trainer. I have never walked away from one of those conversations feeling good about it. I feel bad for making my trainer think I don't trust him and I am always worried he will think I am cheap.

While I don't necessarily agree with all of the rules I have only one thing to say. If you don't like it don't go there! The only thing that has been accomplished here is to pretty much assure that no one will want to put anything in writing again. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

************************************************** **********
"I'm not going to have reporters pawing through our papers. We are the president."
-- Hilary Clinton

relocatedTXjumpr
Dec. 3, 2003, 09:55 AM
Luckyduck:

Your right, it was a weekend position. I was then told that the person would also be teaching beginers when the trainers were away at large shows, i was told this was easier than having to re-schedule tons of lessons. I was told that the position did not offer pay, but ;essons given by a trainer, on the barns horses. When beginer lessons were taught a small pay would be added, something like $10 a rider or something. Maybe whomever I spoke with worded it wrong, or maybe I heard it wrong, but I know that it came out or accross as "tacking up the lesson ponies for the kids, assisting them to the ring and untacking when finished"
I know that I did not take the position based on what I felt like I was gettinginto..a high maintance barn. I was also told that since I had just moved to the area, and had not riden for a few months, that i might not be in the best shape to handle the routine.

Bottomline....I DO AGREE that a handbook is a good idea...it lets you know what youre getting into BEFORE the bill arrives. People pay differently for all sorts of things, it varys for many reasons. So it was worded wrong...fine, people make mistakes...your book, your barn, your rules. Dont call people liars based on whats posted, as I have basicly been called. Im sure the people that board at your place CAN afford all the things you provide, and maybe you are trying to keep out certain people...like people who just board and dont take regular lessons, or people who have 5 horses and never come to see them, fine. but let people have their opinions, many based on what they read...they wanted some answers to questions and up until your post only got a run around and flamed for being upset by what they read. If I compare your barn to mine, dont get all weirded out and flame me...barns are different, horses are different, people are different.

B & B Sport Horses

http://community.webshots.com/user/ga_jumpr

Dont put the cart before the horse, unless he knows how to push it of course. ~~ Pat Green

luckyduck
Dec. 3, 2003, 10:05 AM
"Huntcliff is pretty pricey. I once applied for a position there..said as an assistant trainer. turns out it was to tack and untack the ponies for the kids...and not school ponies, but their own ponies. Basicly a groom for spoiled brats. If you cant tack up your own pony you dont need one."

relocatedtxjumper, this is what you posted on your first reply so maybe I should have read further through the rest of the posts to see if you had changed what you stated. I'm sorry.....

NO ONE is calling you a liar, just clearing the facts.

Everyone who has been to our stable, knows without a doubt, we do NOT have kids that do not care for their own ponies. Beginners go with beginner trainers and tacking, care and learning to ride are ALL part of their first lessons. As a matter of fact, they are not allowed to graduate to the "big ring" until they can successfully accomplish catching a pony, grooming it and tacking it up.

Again, no one is supposed to be offended by our handbook..... it is just what we use for our stable.

www.westwindfarm.net (http://www.westwindfarm.net)
Home of the real Luckyduck & West Winds Ricky Martin

reefy!
Dec. 3, 2003, 10:47 AM
It's one barn's take on their own rules.
Glad to see that some barns actually do this!!
Wish mine did.

The only reason you have to agree with it is if you're planning on keeping your horse there or will be taking lessons there.

If not, who cares? It's their barn, their rules. Sheesh.

* STRESSED is DESSERTS spelled backwards! *

SoNotaDQ
Dec. 3, 2003, 11:51 AM
1. Effective November 1st, 2003, riders 18 years and under MUST wear an approved helmet with a full harness (examples: GPA, ATH, Tipperary, etc ...No three point systems). These helmets can be purchased in any tack store and are usually between $55 and $350. We recommend Tack Tavern 1600 S. Main St, Alpharetta GA 770-475-8225. This is for your safety!! No exceptions!!

That is a direct quote from the website.Lucky duck, correct me if I am wrong, but you are specifying a harness type, not individual brand. aka, my charles owen would suffice right??

I had a choice of going to a very nice local barn. Lovely place, nice people. One rule stopped me. I could not jump out of lessons. I am 34 years old. I have been riding since I was 11, to me, that is too limiting. Not wrong, as the barn's focus is A/local showing, especially ponies/juniors.

As someone in the business, you have to set rules that you can live with. If people can't, than they can choose not to board there. Seems like you are pretty full though,so it must not be too limiting.

relocatedTXjumpr
Dec. 3, 2003, 12:16 PM
What do the adults ride in and the trainers? Are trainers and or adults ever seen hacking without helmets...or even guilty of it when no one is around?

I never could understand what makes an adults head so much safer in an unaproved than lets say a 16 year old...both are very squishable.

B & B Sport Horses

http://community.webshots.com/user/ga_jumpr

Dont put the cart before the horse, unless he knows how to push it of course. ~~ Pat Green

Nickelodian
Dec. 3, 2003, 12:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by relocatedTXjumpr:
What do the adults ride in and the trainers? Are trainers and or adults ever seen hacking without helmets...or even guilty of it when no one is around?

I never could understand what makes an adults head so much safer in an unaproved than lets say a 16 year old...both are very squishable.

B & B Sport Horses

http://community.webshots.com/user/ga_jumpr

Dont put the cart before the horse, unless he knows how to push it of course. ~~ Pat Green<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right but the adults (being adults) and living in a free country can choose to have their head squished and squishable all they want (hashed out many many times in unapproved v. approved helmet discussions).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
www.scatteredoaksfarm.com (http://www.scatteredoaksfarm.com)

relocatedTXjumpr
Dec. 3, 2003, 12:34 PM
Nick I agree...as adults we are entitled to make our own decisions. Im just wondering what the adults at this barn wear or if they wear one only while jumping, even the trainers.

I dont know how many times Ive seen "allriders must wear protective head gear while mounted" and seen a trainer or someone hacking with a baseball cap on...hard to set an example that way.

B & B Sport Horses

http://community.webshots.com/user/ga_jumpr

Dont put the cart before the horse, unless he knows how to push it of course. ~~ Pat Green

runspotrun
Dec. 3, 2003, 12:55 PM
Um, there is a part of the handbook that says if you choose not to pay for a $500 service the barn offers (which makes vet appointments for you, and the payment comes from that $500), than YOU will ahev to call the vet in an emergency. They won't call for you.

Nauset
Dec. 3, 2003, 01:03 PM
I think this whole thread is ridiculous and a waste of COTH BB space http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

But I wanted to say to Luckyduck-
I have come across your farm's site many times and love it. I think the idea of a handbook is genius and IMO, tons more barns should consider it! I wish the barn I board at was more like WestWind/Huntcliff

..:*:..:*:..:*:.BAS.:*:..:*:..:*:..
Proud Member of the SHORT & STUBBY LEG CLIQUE!

You know you're a horse person when you look at a picture of your dog and say, "LOOK AT THAT TROT!" :-D

http://community.webshots.com/user/samtb056

diKecnadnuS
Dec. 3, 2003, 01:41 PM
A lot of barns used to require helmets with a clear harness for junior riders (then custom's became more and more popular)...so I see this no different with wanting your riders to look like the rest of the show ring.

~*~* Boldly going where no blonde has gone before!! *~*~

-Adult Pony Rider Clique-
-Disgruntled college student clique-
-Short stubby leg clique-

RugBug
Dec. 3, 2003, 01:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by relocatedTXjumpr:
Nick I agree...as adults we are entitled to make our own decisions. Im just wondering what the adults at this barn wear or if they wear one only while jumping, even the trainers.

I dont know how many times Ive seen "allriders must wear protective head gear while mounted" and seen a trainer or someone hacking with a baseball cap on...hard to set an example that way.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, seeing as how the rule says nothing about riders over 18...I would think they could ride in whatever they wanted. The rule specifically states it applies to rider under 18.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>originally posted by runspotrun:
posted Dec. 03, 2003 03:55 PM
Um, there is a part of the handbook that says if you choose not to pay for a $500 service the barn offers (which makes vet appointments for you, and the payment comes from that $500), than YOU will ahev to call the vet in an emergency. They won't call for you.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And the problem is? It doesn't say they won't notify you of an emergency, just that you have to do the calling and the holding. If you pay for the service, you get the service. If you don't, you don't. Why should they do something for you that you aren't paying for? They are a business. If you don't like how they conduct business, you don't have to work with them.

Paula
Dec. 3, 2003, 02:13 PM
I'm curious about this section regarding showing fees:

"A blank check (for show fees) made payable to the show office must be dropped off to Nicole or Charity BEFORE we leave for the show, at least 5 days prior."

Okay maybe it's just me but I can't imagine dropping off a blank check to a training facility and just trusting them to fill in any amount they deem appropriate. Is this customary in hunter barns? I've always just paid show fees upfront and possibly been billed right after for any unplanned add ons.

Nickelodian
Dec. 3, 2003, 02:22 PM
At Hunter shows you leave a blank check at the office and then fill it in the day you leave...to account for adds/scratches etc. Not sure about the 5 day in advance thing though, thats a long time to have a blank check floating around.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
www.scatteredoaksfarm.com (http://www.scatteredoaksfarm.com)

texana07
Dec. 3, 2003, 02:23 PM
Blank check before the show is how a barn I know does it...and it resulted in a lot of accusation of scandal! The trainer closed each clients bill at the show office, then added her fees, and just filled that amount in on the check. I say it's a bad idea. Better to have proof of exactly what cost exactly what.

I am VERY curious. How many barns require a blank check? Are they just for the training/day-care fees or for that in combination with the entry fees? Do you get proof of how much your show-office bill actually is?

eclipse
Dec. 3, 2003, 02:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Okay maybe it's just me but I can't imagine dropping off a blank check to a training facility and just trusting them to fill in any amount they deem appropriate. Is this customary in hunter barns? I've always just paid show fees upfront and possibly been billed right after for any unplanned add ons. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, not customary at the barn I ride & board at. We fill out all entry forms ourselves, as well as the cheques & then leave them with the trainer so she knows what we are entering, & just mails them in all together. If we'd rather mail them ourselves we are also welcome to do that too.

"errr, ummm, oomph.....brain fart"!!

Waterwatch
Dec. 3, 2003, 02:38 PM
My trainer leaves a blank check of his own with all the entries at the show office. It's customer's responsibility to "check out" at the end of the show.

I always seem to be the last one out, so he asks me to destroy his check at the end of the show. I don't think he's ever had anyone leave without paying http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Barb

"May the happiest days of your past be the saddest days of your future."

jackandlily
Dec. 3, 2003, 02:44 PM
I was just wondering luckyduck, do you have a pasture board option? I couldn't access the handbook to read it. With all the talk about the stalls and boarding, it just made me wonder if you had an pasture boarding option. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Also, I think it is a great idea to have a handbook! And to enforce the rules (regardless of what they are)! My barn is very disorganized and nobody seems to follow the rules (not major rules like riding alone, we follow those, but simple things like putting your bridle on the PROPER hook and making sure nothing is on the ground, etc.). Kudos to you! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Member of the Hot TB Mare Clique, OPH, MOOP, I Know the Boot Place Behind Dairy Queen! Clique and the GA Clique.

Madison
Dec. 3, 2003, 04:57 PM
On the blank check issue, my trainer has us give her a blank check made out to show management either the night before we leave or the day we get there. Most if not all shows require an open check to issue your number (my trainer does our entries and checks everyone in because she goes earlier in the day than we do). but she gives us a separate bill for what we owe her (day care, hauling, schooling, etc . . .) and we write her a separate check after the fact for that.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://community.webshots.com/user/madisonav

soundfx
Dec. 3, 2003, 04:59 PM
i dont c y its a prob...i have an aproved international that isnt a skunk helmet...its the old style hunt cap.

"go ahead, dream a little dream" jay privman.

eqnjumperrider
Dec. 3, 2003, 05:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by runspotrun:
Um, there is a part of the handbook that says if you choose not to pay for a $500 service the barn offers (which makes vet appointments for you, and the payment comes from that $500), than YOU will ahev to call the vet in an emergency. They won't call for you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
WOW, that's CRAZY and ridiculous that they won't call the vet in the case of an emergency http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif.... So basically if your horse is colicking and you don't pay for the "service" TFB for the horse?

luckyduck
Dec. 3, 2003, 05:05 PM
Glad to see some are reading the WHOLE handbook...

The blank check issue....is because for almost a full show season we had to many DELIQUINT paretns who would not pay their show bills for MONTHS and MONTHS leaving me to carry the show office bill as well as any other fees, like braiding or shavings...

NOW if they are SERIOUS about going to the show, they drop off a blank check made to the show office and all that goes on the check is just that...office show fees. My fees are paid seperately with another check made out by the client. And because we post our fees, most of our cleints now exactly what to pay when.

As for adults and helemts.... EVERYONE is required to wear a riding helemt. Just those under 18 (kids) have to wwear helments that require LITTLE effort to adjust. We are NOT suggesting a brand or color, just a single adjustment system.

And my how some things are not taken properly because you do not read ALL the details.

We do call the client in the event of an emergency and would call the vet if the cleint could not be reached, but we do not like when the vets and blacksmiths are not paid at time of service or having to skip from vet to vet because a cleint has not paid so many of them....we came up with an escrow service that is the clients money and used towards vet bills and farrier bills. If they don't use this service....THEY are responisble for paying the vet at time of service and MUST come to that appointment. If their horse gets sick, I call them and if they are not reachable, I call the vet....

Like anyone would just let a horse lay there and die because an owner couldn't be reached.... and by the way....every cleint in our stable uses this service because they LOVE the hassle free system for them. They get an invoice and receipts at the end of every month and the bill has already been paid....

We DON"T charge for this service either.

PLEASE NOTE this is the actual clause from the updated version of the handbook.....

IF you choose NOT to use this service, you will be responsible for making your own vet and farrier appointments…. (This means you will be responsible for showing up to hold your horse AND paying the bill at time of services.) As well, in the case of an emergency, YOU will be the one to handle calling the vet and meeting them out there. (NOTE: if you cannot be reached, the vet will be called. Please see clause in your boarding contract about fees that are due to vet/farrier before leaving the stable)

We have resorted to this because of the massive amounts of vets and farriers that go unpaid. We certainly have had no complaints from the professioanls we use.

www.westwindfarm.net (http://www.westwindfarm.net)
Home of the real Luckyduck & West Winds Ricky Martin

[This message was edited by luckyduck on Dec. 03, 2003 at 08:26 PM.]

[This message was edited by luckyduck on Dec. 03, 2003 at 08:37 PM.]

luckyduck
Dec. 3, 2003, 05:36 PM
And to answer the question about pasture boarding.... I WISH!!!!!!! Not enough space and already have to deal with redoing the ENTIRE property from years of abuse.

Maybe Santa will bring me a few extra acres for Christmas!!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

www.westwindfarm.net (http://www.westwindfarm.net)
Home of the real Luckyduck & West Winds Ricky Martin

Policy of Truth
Dec. 3, 2003, 05:54 PM
I can tell you that Luckyduck does do everything for a reason..even if it sounds quirky... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I can also assure you that she knows what she's doing (of course, I'm a nobody, so my opinion may not matter http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif), cares more about the kids than money, and you'll never meet a woman more invested in the safety and happiness of the horses.

I know most of the members of the Huntciff Board of Directors, and I know that they are hard workers, and NOTHING is just one person's opinion. It has to be voted on.

As far as the having permission to ride one's horse, I believe that MAY have developed after a certain incident that was more dangerous for the horse than rider...and the rule was created in hopes of NEVER allowing that situation to occur again.

The board proces was developed due to a realization that TYPICALLY, a 17hh horse will eat more than a 13.3hh pony. They DO adjust it, based on the individual, but LD doesn't believe the owner of the 13.3 pony should subsidize the feed required for the TYPICAL 17hh monster! Is that such a bad thing?

tyedyecommando
Dec. 3, 2003, 06:08 PM
The escrow service for the farrier and vet does not sound like a bad idea. It becomes very difficult to get a farrier to come out and shoe after he has been stiffed on payments so a few times. Our farrier had to go to a system of a check must be at the barn prior to him shoeing or it was tough luck for you.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"Cause I'm hella cool, that's why."
- Eric Cartman

Justin
Dec. 3, 2003, 06:29 PM
I think it is refreshing for a barn to have all its rules, expectations and fees posted for everyone to see. That is how to run a legitimate business. If trainers don't want to be accused of being poor businesspeople, maybe they should put everything out in the open like that. Everyone would know they are ethical, upstanding people.

Also, I think the $500 vet service is a smart idea. You people sure get your panties in a wad over stupid crap http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Luckyduck I would board at your barn any day.

BarnField
Dec. 3, 2003, 06:38 PM
Publishing such a document serves a purpose - to lay it all out there. People will always vote with their feet - if they don't like it, they'll leave, and if they accept the rules, they'll stay.
(Me personally, my feet would walk away. . . in a hurry. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif)

analter
Dec. 3, 2003, 06:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by vxf111:
Boarding prices vary based on the horse's height? .... But maybe someone could explain why the height of your horse matters in terms of board if the size of the stalls are the same.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe someone who had a hand in making the rule writes the checks on a few ponies and thought it was a good way to save herself some money???

Beethoven
Dec. 3, 2003, 06:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PlusTax:
That really surprises me! Huntcliff has always been a place for younger kids and mostly beginners, I actually thought they had a big school horse program. They do almost all the local GHJA shows but don't really do the A circuit that much (at least they're not known as one of the big A circuit barns) so I wonder if they're trying to change their image? Strange... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

**Kelsey**
&
**Notoriety**
**Plus Tax**
**Clearly Canadian**
**Pavielle**
**Angel Face**

http://community.webshots.com/user/jrhntrpavi<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Kelsey...Kathy Jones no longer trains there anymore...I know that is who you are thinking of, but Kathy is in Athens now and different people own and train now....

~Jenna & Beethoven~
http://community.webshots.com/user/jlm179

PlusTax
Dec. 3, 2003, 07:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by analter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by vxf111:
Boarding prices vary based on the horse's height? .... But maybe someone could explain why the height of your horse matters in terms of board if the size of the stalls are the same.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe someone who had a hand in making the rule writes the checks on a few ponies and thought it was a good way to save herself some money???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh jeez, really do you have nothing better to do then make an alter just so you can bash people? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I'm assuming you're refering to Luckyduck's daughter. FYI little kids do grow up and eventually grow out of ponies so you're little theory is very stupid. Way to think that one out though http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Huntcliff is a great barn for kids and always has been. I never rode there but I had friends there and they all loved it, no complaints about finding dead horses because the vet wasn't called or about crazy rules. All of you are being ridiculous and I hope a moderator closes this topic.

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

**Kelsey**
&
**Notoriety**
**Plus Tax**
**Clearly Canadian**
**Pavielle**
**Angel Face**

http://community.webshots.com/user/jrhntrpavi

Janet
Dec. 3, 2003, 07:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paula:
I'm curious about this section regarding showing fees:

"A blank check (for show fees) made payable to the show office must be dropped off to Nicole or Charity BEFORE we leave for the show, at least 5 days prior."

Okay maybe it's just me but I can't imagine dropping off a blank check to a training facility and just trusting them to fill in any amount they deem appropriate. Is this customary in hunter barns? I've always just paid show fees upfront and possibly been billed right after for any unplanned add ons.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This IS customary at many shows. Many shows will not give you your number unless you keave a blank check with the secretary. Notice it says the check is made out to "the show office", NOT the trainer.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

luckyduck
Dec. 3, 2003, 07:50 PM
I am glad I am not the only one who can goof a statement because I don't read ALL the posts!

The prices for our board are based on a SYSTEM of size, but if someone who has a 16 hand horse who gets fat off the fumes of feed, they will CERTAINLY not be charged a 16 hand horse price but rather the pony price.

Each horse/pony/person is treated as an individual.

No, Kathy is no longer at Huntcliff.....but the statement holds true, that Huntcliff is a place for kids and maybe some adults that LOVE kids....and it always will be.

I do not "own" Huntcliff but it is owned by a homeowners association and I am just "hired management"

I do not pay board on my horses and only one board member has a pony.

www.westwindfarm.net (http://www.westwindfarm.net)
Home of the real Luckyduck & West Winds Ricky Martin

vxf111
Dec. 3, 2003, 07:53 PM
Kelsey, I posted this...

&lt;&lt;Boarding prices vary based on the horse's height? .... But maybe someone could explain why the height of your horse matters in terms of board if the size of the stalls are the same.&gt;&gt;

Because I genuinely think height is an odd way to do board. Maybe based on amount of feed actual used or size of stall but height seemed odd because it doesn't correlate to amount of feed. What if a horse is very small but requires a more expensive feed? Or a horse is huge and our of work so is only getting hay? Luckyduck answered the question that she takes this into account, the manual didn't seem to indicate that.

But I didn't post this...

&lt;&lt;Maybe someone who had a hand in making the rule writes the checks on a few ponies and thought it was a good way to save herself some money???&gt;&gt;

In my earlier post I wasn't suggesting an ulterior motive. I was just wondering aloud whether there was an actual correlation between height and cost of feed.

~Veronica

"The Son Dee Times"
"Sustained"

luckyduck
Dec. 3, 2003, 08:01 PM
vxf111 to answer your question....us wording it in height vs. how much EACh individual horse/pony eats was EASIER!

We have 20 boarders at the moment. 8 ponies 1 hard keeper and 11 horses. Of the 11 horses 3 pay pony board because they eat as much grain/hay as some of my 12 hand ponies...

ANOTHER reason we do this is because we do not have the overhead that some stables do. No mortgage, no huge lease fees etc...etc... so why should we add that into the price.

Our stable opperates NOT to be a HUGE profit company for someone, but rather operates as a NON-profit..... what money we need is for CAPITAL improvements...and thus why we came up with membership ideas.... instead of rasing board prices, people who are interested in certain services opt to pay a membership and thus we come up with the capital cash we need for things like new rings, sidewalks, parent viewing rooms so on and so on.... No loans, no robbing Paul to pay Peter....

We have a different situation....and thus why our handbook is obviously not for many....it works for those who participate WILLINGLY with us.

www.westwindfarm.net (http://www.westwindfarm.net)
Home of the real Luckyduck & West Winds Ricky Martin

SaddleFitterVA
Dec. 3, 2003, 08:47 PM
A great handbook. It is clear and has the rules set. They have a valid reason for their pricing structure.

I especially like the first aid kit requirements. I will actually think of using this format for my own barn when I start getting boarders. I will not be a lesson barn, but the clear pricing schedule is good.

Thanks for making this handbook public and open for discussion.

Mel

Blue Devil
Dec. 3, 2003, 09:04 PM
Just an FYI about the blank signed check issue--it is standard at shows, however if you want to get around it & show actively it's possible.

When I was a junior & would go off to horse shows for weekends without my parents (with a trainer) my parents were hesitant to have me use a signed blank check! My dad basically refused to do so after a few years, so they started having me use 2 checks. I would give the show secretary (who knew me from showing before/there often) a check for say $2000. Now, even when I had 2 horses showing in multiple divisions at AA shows, my bill was never over $2000. I would leave the $2000 signed check with my entries. At the end of the show, I would come in, close out, & write up a new check for the exact bill. The show secretary would give me back my old $2000 check which I would then void and throw away.

If you are scared about blank signed checks this is an excellent way to do it. The shows don't mind because as long as your "holder" check is large enough to cover your bill, they're paid (or make money) from you.

My story is in the New York Times!
http://www.nytimes.com/uwire/uwire_TQED110720031291208.html?ex=1146286800&en

Kryswyn
Dec. 3, 2003, 09:08 PM
It makes a huge difference in the interpretation of the handbook knowing that the barn is owned by a Homeowner's Association rather than an single owner/trainer.

Especially the "no riding w/o permission of a specific trainer". I'm betting it's not that difficult to get... if you're a responsible rider. But if you're a boarder's kid who shows up w/ a few friends to go for a joy ride (pardon the pun!) it may be harder to get permission!! At least I hope so http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

~Kryswyn~
"Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo"

PlusTax
Dec. 3, 2003, 09:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by vxf111:
Kelsey, I posted this...

&lt;&lt;Boarding prices vary based on the horse's height? .... But maybe someone could explain why the height of your horse matters in terms of board if the size of the stalls are the same.&gt;&gt;

Because I genuinely think height is an odd way to do board. Maybe based on amount of feed actual used or size of stall but height seemed odd because it doesn't correlate to amount of feed. What if a horse is very small but requires a more expensive feed? Or a horse is huge and our of work so is only getting hay? Luckyduck answered the question that she takes this into account, the manual didn't seem to indicate that.

But I didn't post this...

&lt;&lt;Maybe someone who had a hand in making the rule writes the checks on a few ponies and thought it was a good way to save herself some money???&gt;&gt;

In my earlier post I wasn't suggesting an ulterior motive. I was just wondering aloud whether there was an actual correlation between height and cost of feed.

~Veronica

"The Son Dee Times"
"Sustained"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

oooo I know!! Sorry for the confusion, I wasn't referring to you! No worries http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Jenna- I know that Kathy isn't at Huntcliff anymore but I was under the impression that it was a lot of the same boarders and it was still more of a childrens barn.

**Kelsey**
&
**Notoriety**
**Plus Tax**
**Clearly Canadian**
**Pavielle**
**Angel Face**

http://community.webshots.com/user/jrhntrpavi

becca's boys
Dec. 4, 2003, 05:21 AM
I think this handbook is very well done and extremely explanatory. It's purpose is to inform and clarify things for the boarders and riders at this particular facility!!!

luckyduck
Dec. 4, 2003, 05:27 AM
Your right Kryswyn .... not hard to get "permission" to ride.

We have NO ONE that is not allowed to at this point...we had one boarder on "probation" so to speak because I arrived one Staurday afternoon to find her horse fully tacked up in his stall saoking wet with sweat.....she had left him there because her firends had showed up and it was more fun to play then finish with her horse.

She was shown in her next few lessons how to properly take care of her horse and was watched for a few weeks to make sure she would complete the tasks....

We do it for the well fare of the animals as well as making sure we have RESPONSIBLE kids at the stable if no one of knowledge is present.

www.westwindfarm.net (http://www.westwindfarm.net)
Home of the real Luckyduck & West Winds Ricky Martin

Jsalem
Dec. 4, 2003, 05:30 AM
I've read this thread and finally took the time to read luckyduck's handbook. I think its brilliant! It clearly spells everything out and is proactive. Many of the policies and rules are things which come up with new riders- situations that we usually deal with as they come up. Huntcliff has already spelled it out.

As for the helmet thing, it clearly says riders must have an approved helmet such as..... What's the problem? It also says any tack store, but we recommend.... What's the problem?

The fees are very clearly laid out and very much in line with the Atlanta market. Some a little higher, some a little lower. Very professional to have it spelled out. I don't think their clients should ever be surprised by a bill.

luckyduck- I've been using the escrow type account for several years now. The clients love it! I leave it up to them how much they want to deposit, but recommend they start with 2x a regular farrier bill. Each month, their "Equine Care Account" balance is placed on their board bill- they replenish as needed. At any time, a client may review the charges. We keep a notebook with separate leger pages for each client and only deduct quarterly bank fees. We have started deducting a quarterly "supply" fee of $15 so that the barn can supply shampoo, fly spray, thrush med, fungus med, extra lead lines, etc. We hoped to cut down on "unauthorized sharing" of supplies. Now all our grooming and wash areas have these supplies handy. It really works great and now the barn dosen't have to anty up to pay a client's bill. Its so important to pay the farrier, dentist, etc immediately. That way, we are considered a top notch client and my farrier comes running when I call!

Kudos to you- good job. (I may steal your idea though!)

"Everyone has special circumstances. Trot on....."

Duffy
Dec. 4, 2003, 06:09 AM
Kudos to Luckyduck for putting the rules in writing, whether you agree with them or not. Knowing pacificsolo as well as I do, I'm positive that your intentions are in the best interest of the boarders and horses. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"B***h in training"

Nickelodian
Dec. 4, 2003, 07:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jsalem:
As for the helmet thing, it clearly says riders must have an approved helmet such as..... What's the problem? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I started the thread b/c originally the only two acceptable helmets on the PUBLISHED list were skunk helmets. I thought that possibly the trainer/barn was trying to force their kids to be trendy, or buy expensive helmets, and that (if it was true) would be ridiculous. Now that it has been amended to include helmets with full harnesses it makes more sense. B/C that list include more traditional types (including my personal favority the CO John Whitaker).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
www.scatteredoaksfarm.com (http://www.scatteredoaksfarm.com)

RioTex
Dec. 4, 2003, 07:46 AM
OK, since we have settled the helmet issue...

Nick, please close this ridiculous thread!

And my husband wonders why I won't take boarders. Good grief.

Trinity Hill Farm (http://www.trinityhillfarm.com)

Midge
Dec. 4, 2003, 07:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Nick I agree...as adults we are entitled to make our own decisions. Im just wondering what the adults at this barn wear or if they wear one only while jumping, even the trainers.
I dont know how many times Ive seen "allriders must wear protective head gear while mounted" and seen a trainer or someone hacking with a baseball cap on...hard to set an example that way.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

RTXJumper, I have no idea why you even posted this. It goes with nothing in the handbook, yet you seem almost accusatory. They have a rule about juniors wearing specific helmets. The rest of your post seems trollish.

After the number of threads people have posted about their trainer's lack of business sense, seemingly random charges, conflicting barn rules and confusion about costs, this handbook seems clear, consise and covers an amazing amount of information.

While the charges based on size of horse may seem confusing to us as horsemen, it is probably rather clear to the Dad who knows way more gas goes through the SUV than the Honda.

The blank horse show check is pretty standard. I am going to trust my trainer to care for my horse, but not to keep track of a check??

The escrow for vet and blacksmith is an excellent idea! After this thread, I bet more than one of you will see this implemented at your barn.

I don't know luckyduck, but would like to extend my thanks for putting her handbook on the web, presenting her charges, rules and expectations clearly, and not reaching her hand through the phone line to throttle those who questioned her charges in a rude and belittling manner, rather than asking concise, intelligent questions.

gwen
Dec. 4, 2003, 08:12 AM
So basically, If I wanted to ride at that barn, I would have to buy a helmet that doesn't fit me? Neither of those helmets have ever fit me....EDITED TO CHANGE (satisfied?)

**BARB***

[This message was edited by gwen on Dec. 04, 2003 at 01:58 PM.]

relocatedTXjumpr
Dec. 4, 2003, 08:12 AM
Yep, thats right, im just here to cause problems and bash people and barns and be a troll. Come on now! When the thread was started the book was printed wrong...this was not known until after several people had read it and freaked out, including me..the board still makes no sense to me butit has been posted that there are exceptions to this rule that are not listed in the book, maybe they should be.
When I read the first book, the "wrong" one, the price for board and the 2 helmets allowed made it read like the barn was exclusive and trying to weed out anyone not willing to conform...if that makes sense. Adding that to what I took away from a meeting with someone there several years ago took me for a loop, yes maybe my posts came across in a way i didnt mean for them to, so sorry to all. Its no different then me being slammed because I have 2 strands of barbed wire on top of my fence, people see that as an uncaring horse person or "red neck" I asked the other helmet question because I wanted to know, bottom line...but i retract the question.

I dont understand the escrow account, it seems odd to me...you as an owner have topay for the vets services anyway, wether they are billed directly to you, or added to your normal stable bill. But whatever, I dont board there and I prefer my horses at home where I can see them.

I'm no troll and I've posted here for a long time. this is a place to voice opinions, whatever they may be.

B & B Sport Horses

http://community.webshots.com/user/ga_jumpr

Dont put the cart before the horse, unless he knows how to push it of course. ~~ Pat Green

luckyduck
Dec. 4, 2003, 08:27 AM
Well, lets look at all the good stuff that came out of this...

Number one... by opeing our handbook to the ENTIRE COTH boards, we have a LOT of BETTER ideas to add things that are BETTER worded and easier to understand.

Number 2.... I see more postive feedback then negative about the fact that a handbook for a stble makes it easier for ALL to understand charges, rules and facts.

Thanks to ALL on this board who gave their opinions whether for or against...it helps us understand in the furture and make needed changes.

www.westwindfarm.net (http://www.westwindfarm.net)
Home of the real Luckyduck & West Winds Ricky Martin

gwen
Dec. 4, 2003, 08:38 AM
Effective November 1st, 2003, riders 18 years and under MUST wear an approved helmet with a full harness (examples: GPA, ATH, Tipperary, etc ...No three point systems). These helmets can be purchased in any tack store and are usually between $55 and $350. We recommend Tack Tavern 1600 S. Main St, Alpharetta GA 770-475-8225. This is for your safety!! No exceptions!!

Looks like they changed it! Makes more sense now http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

**BARB***

[This message was edited by gwen on Dec. 04, 2003 at 12:56 PM.]

Jinx
Dec. 4, 2003, 08:41 AM
luckyduck i think the handbook is a great idea...it lays out the rules for a barn...like any business or team venture...although i may not agree with some...its why we all have a choice in where we ride and keep our horses at...jmo

Visit another great horse BB at:

http://horsefeathers.proboards2.com/index.cgi

run by buddies...talk about horses or life in general...join us!

RugBug
Dec. 4, 2003, 09:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by relocatedTXjumpr:
When the thread was started the book was printed wrong...this was not known until after several people had read it and freaked out, including me..

I dont understand the escrow account, it seems odd to me...you as an owner have topay for the vets services anyway, wether they are billed directly to you, or added to your normal stable bill. But whatever, I dont board there and I prefer my horses at home where I can see them.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think Midge was calling you a troll, but possibly pointing out that some of your posts on this thread came across as snarky, as if you had a bone to pick (not to say others comments weren't snarky as well.) and that the adults and helmets comment was out of line because the book said nothing about adults.


As for the escrow, many vets and farriers base their relationship on an entire barn, not on an individual basis. In some cases, the vet/farrier hardly knows the owner and is mostly in contact with the barn manager/trainer/owner instead. An unpaid bill, while not the barns responsibility, reflects poorly on that manager and strains the relationship. Enough of them and the vet/farrier becomes reluctant to come out to that particular barn. Thus the escrow to keep everyone happy and paid.

relocatedTXjumpr
Dec. 4, 2003, 09:10 AM
Ok, I guess at the barns I rode at always paid the bill and then added it to your next bill, so you owed the barn and not the vet himself. This was for the yearly vacs and such...when he had to come out anyway to do a bunch of horses. For vet checks and such the owners were present, I belive thevet sent a bill directly to the owner..same with emergancies. If the owner didnt pay it was their fault, not the barns because they never saw the bill, if that makes sense. The farrier was the same way...it was just added to your bill from the barn. I can say that up until I moved my horses home, I never paid the farrier directly. He wrote one bill to the barn, they paid it and then billed the boarders.

I am sorry if my posts came across snarky or mean spirited. I felt as if I was being called a liar about ever having been there...which is what i base my opinion of this barn off of..again, add that with the orginal way the handbook read and you get where I was coming from. All in all its a good idea and im sure every rule has an exception that is not always made public.

B & B Sport Horses

http://community.webshots.com/user/ga_jumpr

Dont put the cart before the horse, unless he knows how to push it of course. ~~ Pat Green

vxf111
Dec. 4, 2003, 09:11 AM
Luckyduck...

Since it's apparent that some posts on this topic were seen as mean, I hope no one thought I was being overly critical. I was genuinely confused about the height thing because it's really not directly related to expense in terms of food. Your explanation was totally reasonable-- you have the height rule but in reality, you calibrate to the actual amount of feed the horse gets. That makes total sense.

I think posting a barn manual is an awesome idea. ANd yours is great! Some of it could be worded more clearly, but hey-- even Ernest Hemingway had editors. I think it's a great idea and maybe some of the suggestions on this thread (the positive ones) could be incorporated to make it even better.

~Veronica

"The Son Dee Times"
"Sustained"

Jsalem
Dec. 4, 2003, 09:31 AM
relocatedTXjumper: Imagine the huge amount the barn is "out" if they pay their clients' bills up front. I couldn't afford to "front" that much money. The escrow account is the way to go. I don't use it for vet bills, though. My vet bills the clients directly.

"Everyone has special circumstances. Trot on....."

NoGreatMischief
Dec. 4, 2003, 09:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gwen:
So basically, If I wanted to ride at that barn, I would have to buy a helmet that doesn't fit me? Neither of those helmets have ever fit me....what freakin retards!!!!

**BARB***

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you even read this thread?!?!

luckyduck, I just wanted to say that I had a look at your website and damn, all the kids look GREAT! The 11-year-old on the pony jumper rides with style! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

gwen
Dec. 4, 2003, 09:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NoGreatMischief:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gwen:
So basically, If I wanted to ride at that barn, I would have to buy a helmet that doesn't fit me? Neither of those helmets have ever fit me....what freakin retards!!!!

**BARB***

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you even read this thread?!?!

luckyduck, I just wanted to say that I had a look at your website and damn, all the kids look GREAT! The 11-year-old on the pony jumper rides with style! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you bother to read my latest post???? Don't f'ing start with me, ok?

**BARB***

Actually I have a JOB, so no, I didn't read the entire thread..I have more important things to do..I was giving my opinion on the subject

Paula
Dec. 4, 2003, 10:01 AM
Thanks. I hope you don't think I was being critical, I was just really curious about the blank check thing as it's something that I've never heard of in my eventing and dressage background. I've only done a few smaller hunter shows so I just don't know that much about SOP with the hunter world. It's interesting to read the different business practices between the disciplines.

MAD
Dec. 4, 2003, 10:12 AM
I am not going to read 7 pages of opinions or make one about the barn in question and their policies -- I didn't read them. However, if they are insisting on approved helmets from a tackshop that they know and trust to fit the rider's head to a helmet properly - GOOD FOR THEM. I doubt it is about kickbacks, more it is probably about safety for the rider and protection for them in this litigious society.

I'll state my opinion.

How many of the people on this board that are knocking the barn that has the fortitude to put their policies in writing has ever tried to get proper or adequate insurance for a boarding and, especially, lesson business?

Just try it. Maybe you'll be singing another song.

And on another note, haven't we had tons of threads that beg barns to put their policies and PRICES in writing? Now it is in writing and there are complaints. Some people just can't win, I guess.

NoGreatMischief
Dec. 4, 2003, 10:15 AM
Easy there barb/gwen, but as someone whose SO's sister is mentally challenged, I get a little fired up about people judging others before they knew the whole story. I don't think anyone would appreciate being called a "freaking (sorry, 'freakin') retard." I'm just not sure how that's appropriate.

That's all. Back to your job now (congrats on that, BTW). http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

gwen
Dec. 4, 2003, 10:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NoGreatMischief:
Easy there barb/gwen, but as someone whose SO's sister is mentally challenged, I get a little fired up about people judging others before they knew the whole story. I don't think anyone would appreciate being called a "freaking (sorry, 'freakin') retard." I'm just not sure how that's appropriate.

That's all. Back to your job now (congrats on that, BTW). http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I gave my opinion. I apologize. Sorry if the "wording" I chose wasn't the best. I guess I am the only one who ever said that word before...

**BARB***

[This message was edited by gwen on Dec. 04, 2003 at 01:30 PM.]

MAD
Dec. 4, 2003, 10:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NoGreatMischief:
Easy there barb/gwen, but as someone whose SO's sister is mentally challenged, I get a little fired up about people judging others before they knew the whole story. I don't think anyone would appreciate being called a "freaking (sorry, 'freakin') retard." I'm just not sure how that's appropriate. )<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll second your post. That is a incredibly offensive choice of words.

Coreene
Dec. 4, 2003, 10:27 AM
MAD, I'll third it.

gwen
Dec. 4, 2003, 10:28 AM
Whatever. I apologized...get the hell over it...

**BARB***

NoGreatMischief
Dec. 4, 2003, 10:28 AM
Ohhhh, I understand. That makes it okay then. Thanks for clearing that up.

(Edited to take out my reference to Midol, now that's making an unfair assumption. Bad NGM http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

Nickelodian
Dec. 4, 2003, 10:47 AM
Well if it could have continued as a discussion on barn policies and the pluses and minuses of said policies...I would have let it go, but now its just getting ugly....

MAD -- The whole reason I started this thread was b/c the barn wasn't just saying approved helmets they were saying GPAs and ATHs specifically. Thats been changed, and it makes more sense the way it is stated now.

Luckyduck -- I like your handbook, and I hope you got some good input/insight from this thread.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
www.scatteredoaksfarm.com (http://www.scatteredoaksfarm.com)

relocatedTXjumpr
Dec. 4, 2003, 10:47 AM
So, with an Escrow account...if for whatever reason you do not use it...or all of it...does that roll over to the next month, quarter, year...whatever system is in place? Or is it used for other things such as barn maintaince things and then at the begining of each year you start over?
Im thinking it would be good to use it for things like brushes, shampoos, clippers, and things for the lesson kids to use on the lesson horses...tack and such.

It sounds like a good idea in part, I guess if you knew what the money was going to be used for and if it was really there when you need it.

If you account has $500 in it...and your vet bill is $100...does that come directly out of that account, so you know nothing further? Do I have that right?

B & B Sport Horses

http://community.webshots.com/user/ga_jumpr

Dont put the cart before the horse, unless he knows how to push it of course. ~~ Pat Green

Mustang Sally
Dec. 4, 2003, 11:30 AM
FWIW Luckyduck, let me add my voice to those commending you on having such a thorough handbook and transparent billing system. It seems you conduct your business in a truly professional manner.

I've read your past posts and your concern for your young riders comes through clearly. Your rules make sense for a barn catering to young riders and parents that may not have a clue. Thank-you for posting your handbook on your website (although the current attention was probably unanticipated!) and engaging in a non-confrontational discussion about it here.

"Waste no time arguing what a good person shall be, be one."
-Marcus Aurelius

MAD
Dec. 4, 2003, 11:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nickelodian:
Well if it could have continued as a discussion on barn policies and the pluses and minuses of said policies...I would have let it go, but now its just getting ugly....

MAD -- The whole reason I started this thread was b/c the barn wasn't just saying approved helmets they were saying GPAs and ATHs specifically. Thats been changed, and it makes more sense the way it is stated now.

Luckyduck -- I like your handbook, and I hope you got some good input/insight from this thread.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My mother had a lesson barn for 35 years. The insurance industry has gotten UGLY expensive. I heard recently where a local farm here couldn't give vaulting lessons to children because the insurance coverage was astronomical and basically impossible to obtain.

I'm a fan for posting rules (which is often mandated by insurance companies) and absolutely sticking to them. If I personally believe in a certain helmet (and of course there must be allowances for round vs. oval heads), than that is that. To heck with fashion.

I did skim through some posts...and please correct me if I'm wrong. There was a post early on from someone that complained about the expense of the helmets because her child is going to outgrow her helmets...I'm sure heads stop growing at a (fairly young) certain age, correct? Therefore, typically you don't have to buy a new helmet every year for a child like you do a pair of shoes.

luckyduck
Dec. 4, 2003, 12:27 PM
The escrow account works like this....

You the boarder give a $500 deposit check to the stable "services account"

EVEN before this happens, on your boarding agreement, you fill out the section that asks what you would like this account to pay for you. Some boaders choose just basic vet and farrier, some choose "for payment of needed supplies" etc...etc...

One you deposit the $500, your payments to the professianls is deducted and you receive a monthly statement.

When you get close to a $100.00 balance left in the account, you are asked to make another deposit.

www.westwindfarm.net (http://www.westwindfarm.net)
Home of the real Luckyduck & West Winds Ricky Martin

Jsalem
Dec. 4, 2003, 01:05 PM
To add to that: When we set up an "Equine Care Acount" for one of our customers, we make it clear that its their money. If they leave our barn, the balance in their account is returned.

"Everyone has special circumstances. Trot on....."

runspotrun
Dec. 6, 2003, 05:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>originally posted by runspotrun:
posted Dec. 03, 2003 03:55 PM
Um, there is a part of the handbook that says if you choose not to pay for a $500 service the barn offers (which makes vet appointments for you, and the payment comes from that $500), than YOU will ahev to call the vet in an emergency. They won't call for you.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And the problem is? It doesn't say they won't notify you of an emergency, just that you have to do the calling and the holding. If you pay for the service, you get the service. If you don't, you don't. Why should they do something for you that you aren't paying for? They are a business. If you don't like how they conduct business, you don't have to work with them.[/QUOTE]

The problem is that in an emergency time is of the essence. If the horse is seriously injured or is even killed because the vet was contacted fast enough, it becomes a problem.

luckyduck
Dec. 6, 2003, 09:49 AM
IF you choose NOT to use this service, you will be responsible for making your own vet and farrier appointments…. (This means you will be responsible for showing up to hold your horse AND paying the bill at time of services.) As well, in the case of an emergency, YOU will be the one to handle calling the vet and meeting them out there. (NOTE: if you cannot be reached, the vet will be called. Please see clause in your boarding contract about fees that are due to vet/farrier before leaving the stable)


This is what the actual clause says.....

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Home of the real Luckyduck & West Winds Ricky Martin

DVM2003
Dec. 6, 2003, 10:23 AM
luckyduck-

I think the handbook is an excellent idea. I think many misunderstandings in every service type business are related to mis-communication.

By the way, as a vet I think the escrow account is a great idea...in fact, I wish I could give my landlord a check in the begining of the year and have him pay my electric, cable, telephone, etc...it would save me lots of time http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

If clients choose to use the escrow account do you provide staff to hold horses for free for both regular and emergency appointments. If that's the case I don't know why anyone woudn't use the escrow plan....what a huge convience.

As far as prices - I grew up outside NYC riding at a typical lesson/boarder/show barn on lesson horses. Your prices seem right on track for a metropolitan area.

C

luckyduck
Dec. 6, 2003, 11:59 AM
Yes, if the client provides the service account funds, we happily hold the horse for all appointments both routine and emergency. We just like to be sure the vets/farriers are paid.

Part of successfully caring for a horse/pony is being sure that the same vet/farrier's are working on the animals so they know them, their issues and how to make them feel better or perfrom at their best.

If the vet/farrier is always paid, they always happily come back.

www.westwindfarm.net (http://www.westwindfarm.net)
Home of the real Luckyduck & West Winds Ricky Martin

Light Catcher
Dec. 6, 2003, 03:49 PM
Okay...I have a silly and off-topic question about Huntcliff for those of you who ride there.

I rode there MANY years. There was a big rock that sat right next to the river in one of the paddocks behind the barn. Right before I left, I noticed that it actually looked like a GIGANTIC anchor (I'm talking probably 5-6 feet long, 3 feet wide and 3 feet deep) that might have washed up a LONG TIME AGO.


Is that thing still there? Is it a rock or an anchor?

I know, I know, it's a stupid question, but I swear I've wondered about it ever since. Maybe it could be a huge archaeological find!

Do I post this and look like an idiot or delete it? Oh, what the heck, I'm gonna post!

KP

"You can't please everyone so you've got to please yourself." (Garden Party)

luckyduck
Dec. 6, 2003, 04:04 PM
Light catcher- I am asuming you are talking about the "rock" that the kids call the "gator"..... funny thing...they go sit out on it in the summer...still there.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

www.westwindfarm.net (http://www.westwindfarm.net)
Home of the real Luckyduck & West Winds Ricky Martin