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View Full Version : Dressage in the USA does not really want spectators



Velvet
Jul. 5, 2011, 09:41 AM
I've heard many people complain that dressage shows are too quiet. That every one has to be absolutely silent so the horse in the ring is not upset. And the sad part is that this is really true here in the US. People are taught that the horse's concentration is fragile.

Um, yeah, not so true. Watch the international horses and the horses in Europe. They get used to a lot of crazy things going on around them. The horses also go on trail rides and see vehicles and other things. These horses are not treated like hot house flowers when it comes to seeing unusual things and learning to deal with them. If someone comes along and surprises them, the riders expect them to maintain or quickly regain their focus. That's part of the trust and submission.

At our shows, people standing in legal zones who might not be dressage riders are told to be quiet. To not move. I even saw a show last weekend where a horse doing a lower level test was rearing and spinning at people sitting in the stands. They were in the legal area. They should have stayed, but someone came along and asked them to leave (not the TD or any sort of show official, but a worked up mother or trainer). They all moved. Seriously? A horse misbehaving in that fashion needs more time in schooling shows before it goes back to recognized. Lesson learned. The rider was not in danger, they kept trying (correctly) to push the horse over to face their fear and get their mind back on the test. They were wrong in bringing such a super green horse to a recognized show. (IMO)

Another time someone else in a completely legal zone was asked to move because they were scaring a horse that wasn't even looking over in the direction of the person. Once again, not a show official and the person was, as already stated, legal.

What in the world is going on in dressage? First we have people asking us to continue to lower the levels for competing at recognized shows, and then people do not do their home work even for that level. The horses are unprepared--and I'm talking about an area with a gazillion schooling show opportunities. Then they pick on the spectators, who we are trying to attract to our sport.

:sigh: I think the problem is people look at our sport and think it's easy. Because it's supposed to look that way when it's done well. So they think that they can sit around like their in a barcalounger and get a ribbon. They don't do their homework. They don't do their job. There is no due diligence that they feel should be expected of them before they step foot in the show ring. And when they don't win or their horse misbehaves, they blame someone or something else.

:no:

AllWeatherGal
Jul. 5, 2011, 09:55 AM
Firstly, I'm not that excited about watching dressage tests from training through third as a plain-ole spectator to begin with. I can't imagine why anyone would attend a show who wasn't a parent, friend, filling a role at the show, or paid by competitors to do so.

Dressage attracts adult female riders who are afraid to jump ... or do much of anything, sometimes. They naively buy horses that are well-suited to dressage but not to their own temperaments.

*raising hand*

And they work with people who may allow them to think it's appropriate to try to control every aspect of their environments, including the show arena.

*putting hand down*

Srsly, both the horses and the riders need to get out and experience the world. We need to be able to feel safe hacking our horses from stall to warm-up to arena and deal with umbrellas, shouting kids, a loose dog without freaking.

My horse recently moved from a very quiet, controlled environment to a pretty busy facility (to be nearer to me). Instead of coming unglued by a 3,000 mile trip and the constant activity, she's adapted. Instead of the nervous wreck I was led to expect, she's still very reactive, but she's come to understand that the world is a busy place and she can manage just fine.

It's us, not them, who need to put on our big girl (or boy) pants and focus on the work, not the distractions.

And, as you say, prepare adequately for where we go, not expect everything to arrange itself for our wants.

Another dressage-as-life-lesson, IMO.

alicen
Jul. 5, 2011, 09:59 AM
Watch the international horses and the horses in Europe. :no:

Excepting Isabell Werth who wanted the jumbotron removed during the 2008 Olympics.

Velvet
Jul. 5, 2011, 10:07 AM
Excepting Isabell Werth who wanted the jumbotron removed during the 2008 Olympics.

Didn't know about that. That's stupid. No dispensation for one rider. Everyone has to deal with it all.

Hey, my horse has had moments that are inattentive, and at home is worse about stupid stuff than at shows. Then again, if I want and need to, I can put him together, get him focused and just ride through it. It's part of the job. They can sometimes get away with being silly (usually at home when we're being more tolerant), but they have to know that when push comes to shove, they have to listen to us and behave (or attempt to).

LShipley
Jul. 5, 2011, 10:10 AM
The silence in the dressage arenas makes me sad. Actually, I find the complete silence a problem because if everything is super quiet and someone yells - that is very distracting. If there is all kinda of background noise and someone yells - it is easier to tune that out.

I also ride hunters and my barn friends all gathered at one end of the ring and hollered for us as we headed towards the first jump. What a great way to relieve show nerves!

I don't mind that my trainer can't talk to me at the dressage shows (at the hunter shows she coaches us when we are down by her end of the ring) - I get that the test is supposed to be just me and my horse and we have had the chance to ride the test countless times with our trainer.

But as Allweathergal said, horses and people can and should manage a busier setting just fine. Personally, I also think it makes for a more pleasant atmosphere.

amm2cd
Jul. 5, 2011, 10:15 AM
Firstly, I'm not that excited about watching dressage tests from training through third as a plain-ole spectator to begin with. I can't imagine why anyone would attend a show who wasn't a parent, friend, filling a role at the show, or paid by competitors to do so.

Dressage attracts adult female riders who are afraid to jump ... or do much of anything, sometimes. They naively buy horses that are well-suited to dressage but not to their own temperaments.



Because someone chooses dressage does not mean that its a fear issue. I hate this generalization. Just because this country does things backwards and letting kids jump before they learn to control a horse'e body doesn't mean that not jumping = scared.

I tend to find that the super silent atmosphere tends to amp up otherwise quiet horses. My BTDT QH gelding who does trailride, go to the local QH shows (complete with yelling and cat-calling spectators), carry flags in the rodeo grand entry tends to get more lookey in the spookey silence of a dressage show.

I don't think that the over protective parents/trainers are the reason that dressage isnt a spectator sport, though....

honeylips
Jul. 5, 2011, 10:21 AM
Isabel also screamed at the photographers in Vegas as she was riding her tests in 2009. She was yelling at them to stop shooting photos as the sound of the clicking was distracting her horse.

cnm161
Jul. 5, 2011, 10:32 AM
I think there's more to the spectator problem than simple silence. How fun is it to watch 20 training level rides? Or, really, any 2 tests back-to-back? Unless the spectators know what they're looking for, it's hard to appreciate differences. Especially at the local levels where amateurs (myself very much included) don't always put together the best of tests. When you're at the shows, do you sit by the rings and watch rides nonstop? I try to watch my class as much as I can, and to watch the riders I know, but otherwise I'm walking through the barns or vendors or talking to friends or watching the warmup (that's where all the fun really is).

SOME people don't trailride their horses. SOME people don't take horses off the property til it's showtime. SOME people can't ride unless the silence is all-encompassing. SOME people blame their rides on something else rather than inadequate preparation. But that's not everyone, and I think painting all of American dressage with that brush is incorrect.

Furthermore, comparing the clientele of the average local recognized show to international competition is a little bit rich. These are professionals whose livelihoods depend on their performance in the sandbox. American dressage is composed of mainly amateurs who work for a living and ride/show as a hobby. Should they be international quality? I'm not making excuses here. I'm saying priorities are very different for a professional within this industry and professionals within other industries who do this sport as a hobby.

Velvet
Jul. 5, 2011, 10:38 AM
.

Furthermore, comparing the clientele of the average local recognized show to international competition is a little bit rich. These are professionals whose livelihoods depend on their performance in the sandbox. American dressage is composed of mainly amateurs who work for a living and ride/show as a hobby. Should they be international quality? I'm not making excuses here. I'm saying priorities are very different for a professional within this industry and professionals within other industries who do this sport as a hobby.

I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you on this one. Homework is homework. Any ammie can get their horse more broke and take it out of the ring at home--IF they take the sport seriously. It's about training. You should have your horse trained well before you go in the ring at a recognized show. Period. If you cannot, then you pay a professional to do it for you so your horse is safe and sane. It's better for the horse, too!

SillyHorse
Jul. 5, 2011, 10:38 AM
:sigh: I think the problem is people look at our sport and think it's easy. Because it's supposed to look that way when it's done well. So they think that they can sit around like their in a barcalounger and get a ribbon. They don't do their homework. They don't do their job. There is no due diligence that they feel should be expected of them before they step foot in the show ring. And when they don't win or their horse misbehaves, they blame someone or something else.

:no:
Bingo. It's just walk, trot, canter, and steer, right?

chancellor2
Jul. 5, 2011, 10:45 AM
What about the dumbing down of dressage in the US? I mean, posting trot at first level? Walk trot tests for adults? Come on.

Tiki
Jul. 5, 2011, 10:56 AM
I've seen posts in the past about how airplanes flying overhead upset the horses at home. Mine watch them and follow them through the sky. They are just fascinated by the whump whump of helicopters.

I've seen posts in the past with people ranting about fireworks in the neighborhood scaring their poor horses almost to death. Last night we were surrounded by fireworks. The horses were grazing and napping through the 'usual' fireworks sounds, plus the one neighbor closest who apparently had spent a bundle on the most expensive fireworks he could find. They were truly spectacular, and the sound they made as they were launched were like heavy mortar rounds, whhuuummmpppp, whhuuummmpppp, whhuuummmpppp - not even an eyeblink.

Horses can easily become accustomed to noise - unless the owners are frantic and frazzled and transfer those feelings to the horse. Then they think, if Mum's scared, then maybe I should be!:lol:

paulaedwina
Jul. 5, 2011, 10:56 AM
Well I can only speak for myself, but I don't ride dressage because I'm afraid to jump. And I'd have to say the PSG schoolmaster I ride in lessons is so athletic, forward, and animated, that a scaredy cat would not last on him.

That aside, I agree that it's too bad these horses are trained/expected to be so fragile of mind. I hadn't thought about it much having grown up in the English method (one horse length between horses, no loud noises, don't applaud until the jumper is done, etc). When I started to notice the issue was when a Western riding friend invited me to one of her shows. I was APALLED at horses riding through the crowds, how loud the specators were, and how the horses were packed nose to tail into the chute.

Then I realized that all the horses took this well in stride. Nobody freaked out - neither horse nor beast.

I began formulating an understanding. It's about expectations. These riders expected their horses to act sane in most any circumstances. We, on the other hand (generally speaking) don't want (from other posts I've read in places) golf umbrellas being opened, people riding bicycles nearby, etc.

I understood from this experience, again as a generaliztion, that I wanted my English trained horses to have Western sensibility.

Paula

quietann
Jul. 5, 2011, 11:07 AM
Oh man, it's the same old issues. It's all us LL ammies out here ruining the sport. Well bless your heart! ;)

Horses have bad days sometimes. A horse that's never seen a bleacher stand full of people -- and they won't see that at most schooling shows -- just might find it spooky. My first recognized show was small and supposed to be a "gentle" introduction to "the big time" but certain physical aspects of the arena set-up caused many horses to misbehave, including some who were more experienced competitors. Mine (who had way more show experience than I did, and was better trained too :) ) was among them. Three weeks later, we did Dressage at the Seacoast at UNH, which is a huge, busy show, and my horse was *fine*. We didn't win, but our scores were high 50s/low 60s, which in my mind is perfectly respectable for someone's *second recognized dressage show ever*.

OTOH, I also think it would be better for dressage shows to be a bit more lively, and people to not insist on quietness etc. The person who said that a shout or a ruckus coming from dead quiet is much more distracting than if it comes from a noisy background is absolutely right.

It makes me nervous to see dressage barns where the horses are always ridden in an indoor and never get out into the big wide world. I do a lot to get my horse out and about; we trail ride, I ride her *towards* scary things as long as I feel safe, I used to ride her on the road at our old barn, where the road was a quiet country road but did have the occasional UPS truck/school bus/landscape truck pulling a noisy rattling trailer/farmer setting off smoke bombs in the groundhog holes in his hay field/big noisy motorcyle... not to mention trash cans, political signs, mailboxes, bicyclists, and people stopping because they wanted to get out of their car and pet the pretty horsie :)

BUT I had to make myself do it; I'm not the bravest person in the world. And it does not mean that she will be perfectly calm about everything. Unlike many here, I have some empathy for those timid adult ammies.

(BTW -- I do dressage because I *cannot* jump, and I am far from the only one in this situation. Doctors' orders, and it was a compromise from "not riding at all" which is what he wanted. This was after a bad riding accident in which I discovered that 44 year olds don't bounce the way 15 year olds do. 5 broken ribs, a partially collapsed lung, a shear fracture of my collarbone, which is now held together by a metal plate, 6 weeks of missed work, one month of no riding and 2 more months of doing nothing but the walk. All of my falls -- even from when I was a kid -- were related to jumping, so I stopped jumping. Not that I was falling off very much, but still.)

MysticOakRanch
Jul. 5, 2011, 11:26 AM
I attended World Cup one year - the announcer requested the crowd stay very quiet and still for ONE rider, and that rider was NOT an American. At the international levels, our horses and riders handle the crowds just as well as anyone else. At the lower levels, you do have more young horses, more inexperienced riders, why not cut them some slack? Reality is, not many people want to sit through 20 Training Level rides anyway, so why the complaint that those 20 rides aren't spectator-friendly?

By the FEI levels, I agree, horses should handle the crowds, riders should be more capable, and if you go to a bigger show (CDI), you will see spectators.

I also don't know why the great desire to pick at adult amatuer riders - reality is, without that population of riders, we wouldn't have shows. Or a horse market. Or many professional trainers. Or a great selection of tack stores.

alicen
Jul. 5, 2011, 11:35 AM
Comments for what happens at 1:29: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06cTLVoDk9Y

MelanieC
Jul. 5, 2011, 11:39 AM
I do dressage because I like it, not because I'm afraid to jump. The worst falls I've ever had have been while doing dressage, not jumping. (Well, and trail riding, but that one probably wouldn't have been very bad if that tree hadn't been in the way...)

The stereotype may describe a large portion of adult female dressage riders, but I would hesitate to apply it to predict the motivations of individual riders. This is one of the problems with stereotypes of any kind. Is it that impossible to believe that dressage is simply more interesting and enjoyable than jumping for some people? I've jumped plenty, and while any time on the back of a horse is a good time I'd personally rather be doing dressage, and have felt that way since I was a little kid.

Velvet
Jul. 5, 2011, 12:01 PM
No one said it's the reason all people get into dressage. It just seems that there is an 80/20 rule going on here and that 80% of the lower level riders these days seem to think that it should be easy and don't always do the home work. The home work would definitely show up in the ring if they did. I saw some ammies who did their home work and had really nice rides, or rides that were partially nice and partially mucked up somehow--but they didn't whine and complain or blame anyone. Again, this group would be about the 20%.

If we had really nice rides and people doing a great job at their level, maybe the tests at the lower level wouldn't be so much like watching paint dry. Maybe you'd watch and think, "Boy, I can't wait to see them as they move up the levels." Rather than thinking, "Ugh. Another awful ride." or "Sheesh, just another train wreck entering the ring."

Reiter
Jul. 5, 2011, 12:05 PM
First of all: Beautiful ride with nice, well matched music!
The arena was very, very quiet until the cheering that caused the spook. Like it has been mentioned above, if there was more general noise I don't think it would have been so upsetting to the horse. Cheering is good IMO, but a burst like in this case is harder to handle for a sensitive horse. Should we get rid of all spectator noise because of it? I don't think so!

merrygoround
Jul. 5, 2011, 12:14 PM
What about the dumbing down of dressage in the US? I mean, posting trot at first level? Walk trot tests for adults? Come on.

The comment was made by one of the "test designers", that it was easier on the horses.

It most certainly is, when the rider can't sit the trot, or the horse has no business doing a First Level Test.

merrygoround
Jul. 5, 2011, 12:26 PM
Comments for what happens at 1:29: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06cTLVoDk9Y

:lol: :lol: That'll teach Steffen to think he can get away riding one handed.

Lovely ride! And a rider who has complete confidence in his horse to carry himself.

Petstorejunkie
Jul. 5, 2011, 12:36 PM
What about the dumbing down of dressage in the US? I mean, posting trot at first level? Walk trot tests for adults? Come on.
I agree :yes:

Velvet
Jul. 5, 2011, 12:43 PM
I wish that that sort of cheering (in Steffens ride) was more common place at during the freestyles. It would really make the horses more immune to the noise and would also show the horse and rider how much the audience appreciates the ride.

red mares
Jul. 5, 2011, 12:48 PM
Horses can easily become accustomed to noise - unless the owners are frantic and frazzled and transfer those feelings to the horse. Then they think, if Mum's scared, then maybe I should be!:lol:

I've spent most of my time around saddlebreds and road horses, with my dressage experience limited to dealing with late starting, middle age ammy's in boarding barns. Since most of the horses I've dealt with are good with fireworks and/or being passed by semi-trucks and Harleys, I have a hard time with crowd noise as a distraction for the horse. Now crowd noise as a distraction for the rider, I totally see that.

H/J shows are ungodly quiet, I can't even imagine sitting through a dressage show if it's worse than that.

Equibrit
Jul. 5, 2011, 12:56 PM
It has been this way in the US since the year dot. So what are you going to do about it ?
Unless individuals decide that they are going to train horses properly, then you have no chance. Unless the group decide that they are going to teach trainers properly - ditto.

alicen
Jul. 5, 2011, 12:57 PM
I wish that that sort of cheering (in Steffens ride) was more common place at during the freestyles. It would really make the horses more immune to the noise and would also show the horse and rider how much the audience appreciates the ride.

Peters clearly didn't appreciate the audience's expression of its appreciation.

Velvet
Jul. 5, 2011, 01:02 PM
Peters clearly didn't appreciate the audience's expression of its appreciation.

I didn't get that from him. I just saw him raise his hand asking them to quiet down a bit. He didn't seem flustered or angry. He just politely raised his hand asking for a bit of quiet since the horse was not used to that sort of outburst and was getting more excited. That outburst was different than the original topic--which was about people just standing around being quiet and horses being upset. In this instance, I think that if we allowed people to show their appreciation, both the horses and riders would learn to accept it and would allow and even enjoy it.

CFFarm
Jul. 5, 2011, 01:19 PM
People will tell you that dressage competition should be fun and we should go for that reason. There are some that find showing fun, but lets face it, spectating is like watching paint dry. Concentration, finesse, art, sales promotion and ego. Yes, it's about that. The upper levels can be interesting if you are educated enough to recognize the nuances. Freestyle is entertaining enough if the horse is working happy and in harmony. If you want fun reining, cutting or saddlebreds where the audience screams and encourages every movement. and is encouraged to cheer on their favorites. Dressage is tooooooo....serious for that. Which I find a shame. JMHO of course.

HenryisBlaisin'
Jul. 5, 2011, 01:22 PM
I agree about the spectators for the most part, but sadly, I think it's part of a larger problem. We don't just treat our horses like hothouse flowers at shows, we do it everywhere! Instead of exposing our horses to scary things, we try to shelter them-look at all the threads complaining about everything from small children to fireworks. Instead of wanting our horses to see and experience everything, we try to shelter them from anything and everything. I've had others who show look at me like I have two heads when I tell them I trail ride regularly (and actually gallop in the fields, not just a stroll), barrel race, ride in parades, all on my show horse. As a result of all this, he certainly doesn't have a meltdown because people are *gasp!* watching him. In fact, he loves an audience. Heck, at our barn's 4th of July cookout, we set off fireworks in the front paddock! (All the horses were inside). Out of 20 horses, two were more than mildly curious and paced in their stalls a little. The rest were mildly interested, at best. My horse didn't even raise his head out of his hay. Nobody was any worse for wear and next time they hear a loud sudden noise, they will be less reactive.

The sheltering begins at home, and IMO, it's terrible for our horses!

alicen
Jul. 5, 2011, 01:24 PM
I didn't get that from him. I just saw him raise his hand asking them to quiet down a bit. He didn't seem flustered or angry.

Well, no, he was busy trying to get back to winning the $86,000.

If the home audience became the rowdiest, the home team might be riding under a disadvantage.

netg
Jul. 5, 2011, 02:48 PM
It is all a matter of personality, too, though.

My very hot OTTB is unphased by spectators. My family remembers my early showing days and tries to hoot and holler like I'm a reiner. He just kinda goes "oh, carrots?" Plastic bags blowing by us? Also no problem. The loud goats and chickens/rooster next door? He seems to enjoy having them watch us.

They play music at our shows. None of the horses seem to mind. However, when the music starts or stops many jump at it - like the disruption in the background sound bothers them.


My horse is generally very sane, except when it comes to the place we have nearly all our rated shows. Unfortunately, going other places doesn't help, and just schooling him hasn't helped much - we have to keep going out there and doing poorly in a show ring all on our own, because it feels different than warmups. It's almost tempting to move up to second level for faster transitions so he can't think as much, then back down to first where we belong once he starts behaving better there. But for us, right now, the only way to get him to behave at rated shows is keep showing there, and realizing I'm throwing away my money for now.

DutchDressageQueen
Jul. 5, 2011, 03:04 PM
:sigh: I think the problem is people look at our sport and think it's easy. Because it's supposed to look that way when it's done well. So they think that they can sit around like their in a barcalounger and get a ribbon. They don't do their homework. They don't do their job. There is no due diligence that they feel should be expected of them before they step foot in the show ring. And when they don't win or their horse misbehaves, they blame someone or something else.

:no:

I absolutely agree with you. especially the above.

tm
Jul. 5, 2011, 03:52 PM
Isabel also screamed at the photographers in Vegas as she was riding her tests in 2009. She was yelling at them to stop shooting photos as the sound of the clicking was distracting her horse.

She didn't scream, she didn't yell. She just hissed at us to "stop it" as she rode by.

Having just returned last night from CDI's in Portugal and France, I can honestly say that we are just a leeetle bit uptight about spectator presence here in the US. I'll be posting about this on my blog once my brain is back on local time.

These were two very different shows: Ponte de Lima in Portugal runs concurrently with a horse fair and one of the days of the show there is a festival for Sao Something in the town, which is a three minute walk from the main ring, so there is a lot of hoopla going on... and a lot of spectators, even though it was over 100 degrees. There were children with balloons (and because it was hot, balloons were spontaneously popping at ringside), dogs, baby horses, and even, at one point an ox cart pulled by two 3000 lb oxen.

The main arena in Pompadour is set between three historic barns, and there is not much room on the long sides between them and the arena. It was also hot there, and spectators in France take barricades as suggestions. They chose to stand in the shade cast by one of the barns all along the "B" side, and when that was full, they filled in the shade between the "M", "C" and "H" judges' boxes. No horses spooked, no riders complained. I cannot picture this happening in this country without a few dressage heads exploding.

ToN Farm
Jul. 5, 2011, 03:58 PM
Aside from horses getting upset by noise, there are some people that just like peace and quiet. I'm one of them. My horse doesn't get rattled by activity around him, but it annoys me a lot. Three days in a row here, I had to listen to close to an hour of fireworks going on from the nearby communities (we have echos here). I was really bothered by it as was my dog, but my horse wasn't phased.

When I am at a show, and the freestyle music gets set off with no warning, my horse doesn't flinch, but I do. At a recent show, there was construction machinery making noise outside the indoor arena where I was warming up. Again, it did not bother my horse, but annoyed me.

Maybe it has to do with one's ability to concentrate, and my lack of it, which is very necessary in dressage. Why do you think there is no talking allowed in a library? It affects concentration.

AllWeatherGal
Jul. 5, 2011, 04:01 PM
Well I can only speak for myself, but I don't ride dressage because I'm afraid to jump. And I'd have to say the PSG schoolmaster I ride in lessons is so athletic, forward, and animated, that a scaredy cat would not last on him.


Yeah, I was turning over rocks, I admit it. At the same time, you don't sound like one of the people who is trying to shush everything in sight so as not to upset her horse!

cb06
Jul. 5, 2011, 04:03 PM
As another person coming from the saddlebred world, though I find dressage fun and challenging and have learned a lot in the few short years I've been doing it, in comparison to saddlebred world, I find the show part of it very, VERY...quiet...almost isolating due to the individual time slots.

I grew up going to shows that looked and sounded more like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRtIRL68gyk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSWoLfkJk-E

...there are crowds...along the rail...live organ music, the classes are often at night under the lights, and to really light-up your horse, many local saddlebred shows are in conjunction with the fair...so picture ferris wheels and tilt-a-whirls all lit up and spinning just off the backside rail.

I just took this video last weekend...this is the victory pass of the 5-gaited champion at the Roanoke Valley Horse show...note the hat in hand, four reins in the other, with the crowd screaming...

http://youtu.be/jkBCtcVg28c

...yeah, I actually miss it sometimes.

Velvet
Jul. 5, 2011, 04:05 PM
Aside from horses getting upset by noise, there are some people that just like peace and quiet. I'm one of them. My horse doesn't get rattled by activity around him, but it annoys me a lot. Three days in a row here, I had to listen to close to an hour of fireworks going on from the nearby communities (we have echos here). I was really bothered by it as was my dog, but my horse wasn't phased.

When I am at a show, and the freestyle music gets set off with no warning, my horse doesn't flinch, but I do. At a recent show, there was construction machinery making noise outside the indoor arena where I was warming up. Again, it did not bother my horse, but annoyed me.

Maybe it has to do with one's ability to concentrate, and my lack of it, which is very necessary in dressage. Why do you think there is no talking allowed in a library? It affects concentration.

Then again, people learn to focus and concentrate in the most noisy situations. People often have background noise going when they study, etc. It's a learned behavior, and if you're showing and there will always be people and noise, then you are the one who needs to pony up and change your ability to focus/concentrate and learn to tune out. If you don't want to show, then you can go ahead and make your barn the house of Usher. :yes:

Then again, that's JMO.

Tasker
Jul. 5, 2011, 04:06 PM
Personally - I'd love to say dressage was really exciting like Show Jumping or Cross Country and 100,000's of thousands should come watch - but it is a very cerebral sport. That being said - if golf can attract huge crowds... :) it's possible, right?

I've had horses have complete meltdowns in competition over the years. I've had them come unglued due to distracting noises (YR Team Test in 1996 at Tempel Farms comes to mind when there was a ruckus over in the woods for SJ) but that's just the way the cookie crumbles.

I am like quietann and (in my opinion/POV) 'reduced' to a dressage only life from here on out. :sigh: Now 6 months ago, walking was extremely difficult, so I can't complain, right? But it kills a part of me to not be able to jump and gallop cross country any more. But as I tried to explain to a working student a few weeks ago - dressage can be every bit as dangerous and full of adrenalin as equine sports like eventing, show jumping or the like....just start pushing 'buttons' that you didn't know about on a sensitive GP horse and see what happens! :D But the harmony, lightness and invisible communication between the horse and rider is what it is all about. :)

Bring on the crowds, the noise, the flags, the distractions...it's a learning opportunity for my horses and me. Some will handle it better than others and that's ok! Or at least I like to think so...

*mind you* the backhoe was digging a new waterline while I rode the 1* eventing stallion today - he's getting ready to show 4th/PSG. And it was filling in the trench while I rode the Weltmeyer...but what's a little noise when you're schooling tempi changes & half pass, right? :D

quietann
Jul. 5, 2011, 04:23 PM
No one said it's the reason all people get into dressage. It just seems that there is an 80/20 rule going on here and that 80% of the lower level riders these days seem to think that it should be easy and don't always do the home work. The home work would definitely show up in the ring if they did. I saw some ammies who did their home work and had really nice rides, or rides that were partially nice and partially mucked up somehow--but they didn't whine and complain or blame anyone. Again, this group would be about the 20%."

Is it REALLY 80%?

I know so many adult ammies who are *fine* riders but are afraid to canter, afraid to show, afraid to ride outside, afraid to move up a level, etc. If 80% really thought it was easy, show entries would be closing the date of opening (and yes, I know some still do), there'd be a demand for more shows, etc.

People can get so obsessive over getting "perfect" in dressage that they don't want to risk other people seeing them goof up. Maybe it's those of us who just want the experience (see my .sig, which as I recall Velvet said she liked!) and can accept imperfection who actually get out there and do it. It might hurt your tender eyes, but I don't consider that to be my problem. (I edited my previous reply to list some of the things I've done to get my horse and I less spook-prone.)

Because my horse is not showably sound, I've not been able to compete for a while, but when I was, I laughed at my horse a few times when she was acting like a goof.

dalpal
Jul. 5, 2011, 04:25 PM
Because just like golf and tennis...the audience has respect for the competitor's concentration. Therefore, the audience stays quiet until the golfer hits the ball, the match ends, or the dressage test is over.

I don't really see a problem with it. There certainly isn't a problem getting spectators for golf or tennis.

Velvet
Jul. 5, 2011, 04:34 PM
Because just like golf and tennis...the audience has respect for the competitor's concentration. Therefore, the audience stays quiet until the golfer hits the ball, the match ends, or the dressage test is over.

I don't really see a problem with it. There certainly isn't a problem getting spectators for golf or tennis.

In tennis, people gasp and make noises. They don't seem to upset the players at that point.

And as for golf, haven't you heard the drunken idiots in the background constantly yelling, "In the hole!!!!" :lol:

I think that the bar has been set in other equine sports. The horses don't have a problem with the loud noise and often feed off it. The riders, in those other sports, don't have a problem either. Think of reining. Not an issue. You know your test, and if people clapped or cheered at certain points, you would probably be smiling more!

Golf is about millimeters. Tennis, I'm not sure why they're so easily flustered anymore when all of the players sound like they're in a porn film with all that grunting and moaning.

Oh, and on that note, I wouldn't mind the horses making noises, or the audience, but the riders can continue to refrain from making noises. I've seen enough riders looking like they're having se* with their saddles at the canter--I don't need a sound track. :lol:

InWhyCee Redux
Jul. 5, 2011, 04:56 PM
In tennis, people gasp and make noises. They don't seem to upset the players at that point.

And as for golf, haven't you heard the drunken idiots in the background constantly yelling, "In the hole!!!!" :lol:

I think that the bar has been set in other equine sports. The horses don't have a problem with the loud noise and often feed off it. The riders, in those other sports, don't have a problem either. Think of reining. Not an issue. You know your test, and if people clapped or cheered at certain points, you would probably be smiling more!

Golf is about millimeters. Tennis, I'm not sure why they're so easily flustered anymore when all of the players sound like they're in a porn film with all that grunting and moaning.

Oh, and on that note, I wouldn't mind the horses making noises, or the audience, but the riders can continue to refrain from making noises. I've seen enough riders looking like they're having se* with their saddles at the canter--I don't need a sound track. :lol:

Please let me know if you ever show in the NYC area — I promise to clap loudly, jump up from my ringside seat, and yell "You Go, Girl!" as you ride by. You'll be smiling away!:lol:

Personally, I feel dressage demands a degree of quiet. Watch a video of a Spanish Doma Vaquera competition (music, spinning, gallopingm and sliding!) — there may be tons of spectators lined up on all sides of the ring but, like at the ballet, clapping is largely reserved until the end of performance.

paulaedwina
Jul. 5, 2011, 05:02 PM
I'm now officially hooked on Doma Vaquera ever since someone posted some speed tests here. You're right - music blaring, but the crowd was not reserved. Indeed; when he pretty much cantered sideways across a ground pole they roared (heck I roared). Horse and rider were unfazed. It's what I expect when considering the history and traditions behind this.

Paula

CosMonster
Jul. 5, 2011, 05:06 PM
You know, I've met like 2 dressage riders who actually never expose their horses to frightening things and expect the world to conform to them. Is this dressage rider who never goes on trail rides and expects a permanent hush whenever she rides really a thing? It seems like just a few isolated cases to me.

I don't really care whether people clap or not during dressage. I show both at Arab sport horse shows where you sometimes get a lot of clapping and cheering (I'm guessing because people are used to being saddleseat spectators :lol:) and at the typical hushed USDF show. Doesn't bother me or my horses either way.

I do think that the ability to cheer has little to do with the number of spectators, though. Seriously, watching a dressage show at anything but the highest levels is like watching paint dry--and even at those high levels it's the freestyles that are really interesting. I don't think it's likely to ever be a spectator sport in the way that, say, jumping or reining could be.

InWhyCee Redux
Jul. 5, 2011, 05:17 PM
I'm now officially hooked on Doma Vaquera ever since someone posted some speed tests here. You're right - music blaring, but the crowd was not reserved. Indeed; when he pretty much cantered sideways across a ground pole they roared (heck I roared). Horse and rider were unfazed. It's what I expect when considering the history and traditions behind this.

Paula

I was talking about classical Doma Vaquera, not the speed-and-obstacles variation of it (Doma de Trabajo, which I also love!).

Spectators at traditional DQ shows tend to be much more reserved.

Tasker
Jul. 5, 2011, 05:24 PM
CosMonster - I wish it were actually just a few isolated cases...but it is really, truly an ever increasing number of riders in the sport. :sigh:

Now, granted, a bunch of them are on horses that you couldn't pay me (big bucks!!!) to throw a leg over but...it is really sad/depressing/disheartening to see so many people who are frightened of so many things - a mistake, a miscue, a horse that acts like a horse (whinnies, has an opinion or is few steps beyond a robot :rolleyes: ) that their world of riding is an ever shrinking enclosed space.

Dressage is supposed to be fun! :yes: :)

mp
Jul. 5, 2011, 05:31 PM
Seriously, watching a dressage show at anything but the highest levels is like watching paint dry

Oh, I disagree with you there.

Watching hunter classes is like watching paint dry.

Dressage is like watching someone paint. Not quite as boring, but very close.

dalpal
Jul. 5, 2011, 06:04 PM
In tennis, people gasp and make noises. They don't seem to upset the players at that point.

And as for golf, haven't you heard the drunken idiots in the background constantly yelling, "In the hole!!!!" :lol:

I think that the bar has been set in other equine sports. The horses don't have a problem with the loud noise and often feed off it. The riders, in those other sports, don't have a problem either. Think of reining. Not an issue. You know your test, and if people clapped or cheered at certain points, you would probably be smiling more!

Golf is about millimeters. Tennis, I'm not sure why they're so easily flustered anymore when all of the players sound like they're in a porn film with all that grunting and moaning.

Oh, and on that note, I wouldn't mind the horses making noises, or the audience, but the riders can continue to refrain from making noises. I've seen enough riders looking like they're having se* with their saddles at the canter--I don't need a sound track. :lol:


Velvet...they don't yell "IN THE HOLE" until AFTER the golfer has hit the ball. I watch golf quiet a bit, and it is dead silent until the ball has been hit. Same with tennis, the audience is quiet until someone makes a mistake. These are sports that require concentration..so does dressage.

Sandy M
Jul. 5, 2011, 06:16 PM
Now, granted, a bunch of them are on horses that you couldn't pay me (big bucks!!!) to throw a leg over but...it is really sad/depressing/disheartening to see so many people who are frightened of so many things - a mistake, a miscue, a horse that acts like a horse (whinnies, has an opinion or is few steps beyond a robot :rolleyes: ) that their world of riding is an ever shrinking enclosed space.

Dressage is supposed to be fun! :yes: :)[/QUOTE]

Well...y'know, there's a nice lady where I board, and she started riding late in life, initially as a trail rider, did some trail trials on her somewhat hot Arab and survived. When that horse had soundness problems, she leased then bought a TB. He's really a nice horse, and a good mover, and she rides him quite well AT HOME. Still, she had trainer and trainer's trainer show him...and guess what, he's still hot and reactive, so it ain't all her nerves. She really would like to show him, but she is, not unreasonably, wary of doing so herself.

I, on the other hand, used to event (thru Prelim, also did Intermediate Combined tests) and did H/J, mostly jumpers, so to me, dressage is a (usually!!!) non-life threatening activity. While I foolishly went and bought myself an unstarted two year old at an age when I should have been buying a schoolmaster/trail horse, I've had enough experience to buck it up and work through the "OMG he's gonna kill me phase." (And for a while there I wouldn't get on him without my eventer's vest, not JUST a helmet!*G*) So while I appreciate the "get over it and learn to cope, get the horse enough exposure that it's not an issue" attitude, I can sympathize with the "Please be oh so quiet during my test" feeling, too.

Now that my horse seems to be coming along - though he still relapses at shows sometimes - at least it SEEMS that he's reached the point where test misbehavior in response to outside stimulus is minor spooks and counterflexing to "get a look" at whatever he thinks is dangerous. I've just taken the attitude that all I can do is continue to expose him, tho' not take foolish risks, and get out there and do it - (but I could do without kids running through noisy metal grandstands!)

Velvet
Jul. 5, 2011, 06:31 PM
Velvet...they don't yell "IN THE HOLE" until AFTER the golfer has hit the ball. I watch golf quiet a bit, and it is dead silent until the ball has been hit. Same with tennis, the audience is quiet until someone makes a mistake. These are sports that require concentration..so does dressage.

Sometimes, in golf, it's after. Other times it's as they strike the ball. Been to enough PGA events to know that. Oh, and people walk around, etc. It's true that they are quiet, but actually, I don't equate dressage with golf. Like I said, it's a game of millimeters. Our sport is not.

You also did not address the noises in tennis that they are allowed to make that are so distracting for an audience. I can't even watch tennis anymore with all that grunting, etc. Just sounds WRONG. Especially the women who have orgasmic screams.

Once again, not really the same as dressage. Dressage is in a ring and takes concentration, but it's not rocket science and the horses are quite capable of remaining focused on the RING and their rider and not the audience. Heck, they learn to ignore the judge in the scary trailer or box. If horses in other sports can learn to ignore it (say, in reining) then why not dressage horses? If the majority of older riders never seemed to have a problem with sounds then why are you thinking you need it so quiet? It seems like you are part of the 20% who want the exception made and really want it deathly quiet. I'm gathering that most people out here don't seem to see that as a big deal--the 80%. In the rest of the world, majority rules. ;)

DutchDressageQueen
Jul. 5, 2011, 06:51 PM
you know, I actually like all the excitement for the horse at shows. It makes the horse more excited, and lighter in his movements. of course, not all horses are like that, but a good deal are.

smoofox
Jul. 5, 2011, 06:54 PM
Watching hunter classes is like watching paint dry.

Dressage is like watching someone paint. Not quite as boring, but very close.

BWAH!! Well said... and scribing for a hunter judge is far more monotonous than scribing for a dressage judge... IMO, based on personal experience. :)

ToN Farm
Jul. 5, 2011, 08:24 PM
Velvet, assuming that everything you think about this subject is
is true, I will ask you why people want to be noisy or disruptive at a show? What benefit is it, even if the riders and horses can handle it. Why is it better to have the dressage show grounds more like a circus or rodeo environment? If I wanted to really whoop it up, I wouldn't choose a dressage show to attend.

I thought it was just awful the way that large group crowded around Totilas as he was exiting the ring. That's just ridiculous rock star groupie mentality. Classless.

And since you find noise not to be disruptive of performance, then it should be ok for auditors at clinics to make as much chatter as they feel like. Get up from their chairs, bang stuff around. No problem, right? Maybe even turn on their radio.

hntrjmprpro45
Jul. 5, 2011, 08:30 PM
There is a fine balance between being overly controlling of the show environment vs. overly lax about the show environment. Horses are NOT robots and I think sometimes people forget that. Some are sensitive and scare easily, some get easily annoyed at loud music or flapping banners, etc. Yes we should try to prepare our horses for shows and try to desensitize them but come on, they are still animals that were originally meant to be out in big pastures.... not crowded arenas with loud cheering fans, etc. We put enough stress on our horses with the high demands of training and showing; we should do our best to not put unnecessary stress on our animals.

So, personally, I prefer the lower levels and especially the young horse classes to be done in a quieter manner. I think it is more than fine for upper level classes to have a more lively crowd since they are more likely to be experienced horses and riders. **By the way I consider normal "people" noise (talking, taking pictures, golf claps, etc) to be definitely be acceptable in any circumstance.

Velvet
Jul. 5, 2011, 09:24 PM
And since you find noise not to be disruptive of performance, then it should be ok for auditors at clinics to make as much chatter as they feel like. Get up from their chairs, bang stuff around. No problem, right? Maybe even turn on their radio.

:rolleyes: Can you talk a chill pill and a reality check? Seriously, turning on a radio at a clinic? How ridiculous can you be? No one was saying that we wanted rowdy people. The topic first started with people complaining that others were in LEGAL areas and they blamed then for the horse's melt down. Honestly, if you can't have an intelligent discourse about this topic, why are you even bothering to post?

Big_Grey_hunter
Jul. 5, 2011, 09:39 PM
Oh, I disagree with you there.

Watching hunter classes is like watching paint dry.

Dressage is like watching someone paint. Not quite as boring, but very close.

I personally LOVE watching hunter rounds at 3ft and above, especially big shows with nice horses. I can't stand watching anything but the highest level of dressage. That's because I know what I'm looking at with hunters. I don't do dressage, so all I see are horses WTC in a tiny ring. I don't care how much cheering is allowed, you won't get big crowd in hunters or dressage, it's too difficult for a non horse person to understand and appreciate the subtle things that make a round good or bad.

quietann
Jul. 5, 2011, 10:07 PM
If the majority of older riders never seemed to have a problem with sounds then why are you thinking you need it so quiet? It seems like you are part of the 20% who want the exception made and really want it deathly quiet. I'm gathering that most people out here don't seem to see that as a big deal--the 80%. In the rest of the world, majority rules. ;)

Well, I'll give you credit for switching your percentages of riders who are ruining it...

paulaedwina
Jul. 5, 2011, 10:22 PM
I was talking about classical Doma Vaquera, not the speed-and-obstacles variation of it (Doma de Trabajo, which I also love!).

Spectators at traditional DQ shows tend to be much more reserved.

Thank you. I'm going to add this to my list of cool things I've learned at COTH.

Paula

InWhyCee Redux
Jul. 5, 2011, 10:33 PM
I was talking about classical Doma Vaquera, not the speed-and-obstacles variation of it (Doma de Trabajo, which I also love!).

Spectators at traditional DQ shows tend to be much more reserved.

Thank you. I'm going to add this to my list of cool things I've learned at COTH.

Paula

Seriously, Paula, look up all the Doma show videos on YouTube; you'll want to run away to Spain. :)

Kaluna
Jul. 5, 2011, 10:39 PM
Velvet,

You must not show professionally at the upper levels in the US. You probably haven't attended upper level professional tennis or golf tournaments. Silence is expected and appreciated.

Of course, if your horse went through the european auctions and the european shows, then he's probably OK with noise. But maybe he can't relax much either, and that's not going to help him at upper levels.

Fact is, most people train in a quieter environment here. Do you want happy horses or a happy crowd?

InWhyCee Redux
Jul. 5, 2011, 10:45 PM
Velvet,

You must not show professionally at the upper levels in the US. You probably haven't attended upper level professional tennis or golf tournaments. Silence is expected and appreciated.

Of course, if your horse went through the european auctions and the european shows, then he's probably OK with noise. But maybe he can't relax much either, and that's not going to help him at upper levels.

Fact is, most people train in a quieter environment here. Do you want happy horses or a happy crowd?

If you watched Wimbledon (GO NOVAK!) I'm sure you heard the announcer reminding the crowd "Quiet, Please."

As for the dressage crowds... In the words of a dear friend, "It's like watching solo equestrian synchronized swimming, without the hot girls in swimsuits." God bless him. :lol:

Kaluna
Jul. 5, 2011, 11:12 PM
If you watched Wimbledon (GO NOVAK!) I'm sure you heard the announcer reminding the crowd "Quiet, Please."

As for the dressage crowds... In the words of a dear friend, "It's like watching solo equestrian synchronized swimming, without the hot girls in swimsuits." God bless him. :lol:

I did watch wimbledon, as I always do. Yes, the announcer reminded the crowd to be quiet. The crowd was. My point exactly.

Wanna hoot and holler and freak out the horses? See how many people will shell out $500-1000 to show under these conditions. Dressage will be exhibition, where there are no recorded scores. You have to really look at all sides of the equation here. Unless you want to lower all the dressage show fees so that people can afford to campaign their horses regularly so that their horses get so used to the hooting and hollering. Who is going to cover that cost?

HenryisBlaisin'
Jul. 6, 2011, 12:37 AM
I did watch wimbledon, as I always do. Yes, the announcer reminded the crowd to be quiet. The crowd was. My point exactly.

Wanna hoot and holler and freak out the horses? See how many people will shell out $500-1000 to show under these conditions. Dressage will be exhibition, where there are no recorded scores. You have to really look at all sides of the equation here. Unless you want to lower all the dressage show fees so that people can afford to campaign their horses regularly so that their horses get so used to the hooting and hollering. Who is going to cover that cost?

That goes back to what I was saying before: I think a lot of riders don't expose their horses to enough things outside the dressage show arena. Keeping all the scary things away from our horses does them no favors, IME. We should be trail riding them past mailboxes, dogs, cows, children, and other horse eating monsters regularly, taking them places like parades and country fair shows with rides noise and wherever else we can. A horse that is not distracted by things is a wonderful thing, and a sensitive, hot, beautifully reactive ride can still be that if it is desensitized to scary things. Desensitizing a horse doesn't take away a competitive edge, it allows the rider to hone that edge.

paulaedwina
Jul. 6, 2011, 07:05 AM
Like I said; I want my English horse to have Western sense. I don't need the dressage crowd to hoot and holler, but if they did we'd still need to be solid.

Paula

Lost_at_C
Jul. 6, 2011, 07:07 AM
My opinion, in brief: Dressage is not a spectator sport. Nor should it be.

dalpal
Jul. 6, 2011, 09:08 AM
Sometimes, in golf, it's after. Other times it's as they strike the ball. Been to enough PGA events to know that. Oh, and people walk around, etc. It's true that they are quiet, but actually, I don't equate dressage with golf. Like I said, it's a game of millimeters. Our sport is not.

You also did not address the noises in tennis that they are allowed to make that are so distracting for an audience. I can't even watch tennis anymore with all that grunting, etc. Just sounds WRONG. Especially the women who have orgasmic screams.

Once again, not really the same as dressage. Dressage is in a ring and takes concentration, but it's not rocket science and the horses are quite capable of remaining focused on the RING and their rider and not the audience. Heck, they learn to ignore the judge in the scary trailer or box. If horses in other sports can learn to ignore it (say, in reining) then why not dressage horses? If the majority of older riders never seemed to have a problem with sounds then why are you thinking you need it so quiet? It seems like you are part of the 20% who want the exception made and really want it deathly quiet. I'm gathering that most people out here don't seem to see that as a big deal--the 80%. In the rest of the world, majority rules. ;)

LOL, Now I think you just want to argue that our sport is doomed. The "Why does everyone have to be quiet watching dressage" argument can certainly be compared to golf and tennis. All of these sports require concentration, the spectators are being respectful.

It's not about the horse....it's about the rider's concentration. What's wrong with respecting that? I personally don't show, would rather spend my money on clinics. But I certainly wouldn't be partying and yelling while someone is trying to put in a good test/paid good money....that's rude and disrespectful.

Who cares if a tennis player gasps when they hit the ball....you were referring to the audience, so therefore, I'm referring to the audience.

And please share with me where you keep getting all of your percentage information. Stop pulling numbers out of thin air.

I DO respect someone who is concentrating on a test...don't understand why there is anything wrong with that. If you want a loud party atmosphere perhaps you should consider changing to Walking Horses or Barrel Racing.

dalpal
Jul. 6, 2011, 09:12 AM
Velvet, assuming that everything you think about this subject is
is true, I will ask you why people want to be noisy or disruptive at a show? What benefit is it, even if the riders and horses can handle it. Why is it better to have the dressage show grounds more like a circus or rodeo environment? If I wanted to really whoop it up, I wouldn't choose a dressage show to attend.

I thought it was just awful the way that large group crowded around Totilas as he was exiting the ring. That's just ridiculous rock star groupie mentality. Classless.

And since you find noise not to be disruptive of performance, then it should be ok for auditors at clinics to make as much chatter as they feel like. Get up from their chairs, bang stuff around. No problem, right? Maybe even turn on their radio.


Agree, and let's distract the judge while we are at it...or perhaps be so loud that the scribe can't hear what the judges tells him/her to write on the score sheet. I mean, who cares that these people have paid hundreds of dollars to get scores. I don't think many riders care whether they have an audience or not, most go to shows for scores...the party atmosphere usually happens in the barn area. :yes:

dalpal
Jul. 6, 2011, 09:15 AM
:rolleyes: Can you talk a chill pill and a reality check? Seriously, turning on a radio at a clinic? How ridiculous can you be? No one was saying that we wanted rowdy people. The topic first started with people complaining that others were in LEGAL areas and they blamed then for the horse's melt down. Honestly, if you can't have an intelligent discourse about this topic, why are you even bothering to post?

No, that is not how your original post came across....you wanted to know why people had to be quiet while watching dressage tests...you didn't say...Can we just have a radio on? And why would you want a radio on at a clinic? Wouldn't you rather hear what the clinician has to say?

CFFarm
Jul. 6, 2011, 09:41 AM
Oh, I disagree with you there.

Watching hunter classes is like watching paint dry.

Dressage is like watching someone paint. Not quite as boring, but very close.

This is my new favoritest quote. Can I steal it?:D:lol:

Velvet
Jul. 6, 2011, 10:00 AM
Well, I'll give you credit for switching your percentages of riders who are ruining it...

Switched? Um, nope. I'm talking about experienced riders. Young riders and/or newbies (which can be older) are the 80%.

Velvet
Jul. 6, 2011, 10:03 AM
Fact is, most people train in a quieter environment here. Do you want happy horses or a happy crowd?

:rolleyes: Okay, lets all go back to the original post. The noise factor was an additional piece. Stating that horses CAN get used to loud noises on the side AS WELL as having people around the ring.

The initial statement was about the fact that people who are in LEGAL areas (by USEF rules) were asked to move because the riders had not trained their horses to handle a recognized show environment.

Velvet
Jul. 6, 2011, 10:09 AM
No, that is not how your original post came across....you wanted to know why people had to be quiet while watching dressage tests...you didn't say...Can we just have a radio on? And why would you want a radio on at a clinic? Wouldn't you rather hear what the clinician has to say?

My original POST: I've heard many people complain that dressage shows are too quiet. That every one has to be absolutely silent so the horse in the ring is not upset. And the sad part is that this is really true here in the US. People are taught that the horse's concentration is fragile.

Um, yeah, not so true. Watch the international horses and the horses in Europe. They get used to a lot of crazy things going on around them. The horses also go on trail rides and see vehicles and other things. These horses are not treated like hot house flowers when it comes to seeing unusual things and learning to deal with them. If someone comes along and surprises them, the riders expect them to maintain or quickly regain their focus. That's part of the trust and submission.

At our shows, people standing in legal zones who might not be dressage riders are told to be quiet. To not move. I even saw a show last weekend where a horse doing a lower level test was rearing and spinning at people sitting in the stands. They were in the legal area. They should have stayed, but someone came along and asked them to leave (not the TD or any sort of show official, but a worked up mother or trainer). They all moved. Seriously? A horse misbehaving in that fashion needs more time in schooling shows before it goes back to recognized. Lesson learned. The rider was not in danger, they kept trying (correctly) to push the horse over to face their fear and get their mind back on the test. They were wrong in bringing such a super green horse to a recognized show. (IMO)

Another time someone else in a completely legal zone was asked to move because they were scaring a horse that wasn't even looking over in the direction of the person. Once again, not a show official and the person was, as already stated, legal.

More about STANDING than noise, but yes, noise is added. There are NO RULES about crowd noise. People are allowed. The PGA has rules that address distractions. Our sport does not. It is the rider's responsibility to do their homework and train their horse to be submissive and attentive to the rider. That's part of the scoring on the test. You cannot control the crowd, nor will any TD or judge control the crowd unless they are doing something dangerous.

Train your horses to behave and stop trying to look for excuses for meltdowns and bad behaviors that are ultimately the rider's responsibility--not that of the audience. People have to stop asking for special treatment and follow the rules that everyone else expects to follow.

Velvet
Jul. 6, 2011, 10:20 AM
And please share with me where you keep getting all of your percentage information. Stop pulling numbers out of thin air.



I guess you don't know how people in business apply rules and changes to systems, etc. It was not pulling numbers out of the air. I stated that I was applying the 80/20 rule. It's a rule, not a polling.

The arrogance of your post pointing people to other sports is what I consider the ugliest part of our sport. To think that unwritten rules are to be obeyed because they make you (one out of how many?) comfortable is the height of hubris.

meupatdoes
Jul. 6, 2011, 10:22 AM
Because someone chooses dressage does not mean that its a fear issue. I hate this generalization. Just because this country does things backwards and letting kids jump before they learn to control a horse'e body doesn't mean that not jumping = scared.

AllWeatherGal did not say that all dressage riders who choose dressage do so out of a fear issue.

She simply said that dressage ATTRACTS riders who are scared to jump.

This is true: it does.
Eventing, on the other hand, clearly does not.

Nevertheless it remains true that A PORTION of dressage riders like the sport because they do not have to jump.

Personally, I do the hunters and am currently teaching a youngster to course 3'6" - 3'9" but would quit riding before I had to ride a Prelim round cross country. So I personally am attracted to the hunters because I am too chicken to jump over a ditch and ten telephone poles into a lake. I am attracted to dressage because it does not require such nonsense either! :lol:

Velvet
Jul. 6, 2011, 10:22 AM
For those who have decided to focus only on the noise factor, you're still missing the point. It's about LEGAL physical positioning of the audience that I was first addressing. Noise is secondary. But you need to look at it from the RULES. Then we'll talk. Outrageous examples of things that have not happened and do not influence the judges or make the TD run over to stop something that is dangerous are really just wild imaginings and have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Kyzteke
Jul. 6, 2011, 10:45 AM
Comments for what happens at 1:29: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06cTLVoDk9Y

I don't think it was the crowd at all...they were yelling and at first he was ok, then he gave the flowers the hairy eyeball.

The fact is reiners are known for their whoops & hollers during a ride and some how the horses deal.

But then, people are supposed to be deathly quiet at a golf tournament but can yell like maniacs at a football game.

Go figure....

I took one of my youngsters for a clinic at a dressage barn. This guy was started by a cowboy ala Buck Brannaman and was accepting of just about everything. Meanwhile, the 3 other gals in the clinic busted us for:
1. Turning on the gas heater while they were riding (it makes this little 'whoosh' sound when started).
2. Standing up to put our coats on/off while they were in the arena
3. letting the CAT come into the arena while they were riding.

And pretty much everything else that involved movement or sound. And here comes my little 3 yr old greenie with about 90 days u/s and you could wave flags off of him, ride him past anything, holler, put the cat ON TOP of him and cover his head with a coat....he was that used to dealing with stuff.

All these horses were WBs and this was a new environment for my horse whereas it was "home turf" for the others. I hope those other woman were embarrassed as heck, 'cause they should have been!

It all came down to training and rider confidence.

The fact is, horses are going to be horses, and if you aren't prepared to deal with that on some level, take up knitting.

HenryisBlaisin'
Jul. 6, 2011, 10:51 AM
FWIW, I agree with Velvet's original complaint. If the people watching are seated or standing in a legal area and behaving respectfully and relatively quietly and were run off by someone, that is not cool. (This coming from a lower-level dressage rider who loves dressage because it IS hard and who loves watching a good test at ANY level because she can learn something from it.) IMHO, if you OR your horse are so rattled by an audience that is seated or standing in a legal area and behaving respectfully and relatively quietly that you cannot complete your test, you are not ready to be showing. It has nothing to do with the spectators or the cost of the shows...it has everything to do with preparation. An adequately prepared horse should be able to handle an audience without a complete meltdown, and a rider should be able to focus to a degree that if the horse does have a minor spook in a new place, he or she can ride through it. A minor spook in a hot horse is understandable; you ride through it and will probably be fine next time because it was a positive learning experience for the horse and rider. More than that indicates that horse and/or rider need more work at home.

paulaedwina
Jul. 6, 2011, 10:54 AM
Once I considered a draft cross to purchase, but he was a bit wound up. He had issues with certain sounds that precluded him enjoying anything like competitive trail riding. The thing that made the decision for me was that one day I was riding my favorite TB/Perch cross and I'd started off wearing a jacket. It got too hot so I took off my bright orange-don't-shoot-me raincoat, balled it up and chucked it over the kick wall of the arena. She didn't bat an eye of course. I realized I need that in a horse.

Paula

quietann
Jul. 6, 2011, 11:00 AM
Train your horses to behave and stop trying to look for excuses for meltdowns and bad behaviors that are ultimately the rider's responsibility--not that of the audience. People have to stop asking for special treatment and follow the rules that everyone else expects to follow.

Who's asking for special treatment?

(.)

merrygoround
Jul. 6, 2011, 11:33 AM
My opinion, in brief: Dressage is not a spectator sport. Nor should it be.

I do hope you are not serious!!!!

belgianWBLuver
Jul. 6, 2011, 11:54 AM
Oh, I disagree with you there.

Watching hunter classes is like watching paint dry.

Dressage is like watching someone paint. Not quite as boring, but very close.

I'm uncorking the wine and popping the popcorn!!!!:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol :

fish
Jul. 6, 2011, 11:55 AM
That goes back to what I was saying before: I think a lot of riders don't expose their horses to enough things outside the dressage show arena. Keeping all the scary things away from our horses does them no favors, IME. We should be trail riding them past mailboxes, dogs, cows, children, and other horse eating monsters regularly, taking them places like parades and country fair shows with rides noise and wherever else we can. A horse that is not distracted by things is a wonderful thing, and a sensitive, hot, beautifully reactive ride can still be that if it is desensitized to scary things. Desensitizing a horse doesn't take away a competitive edge, it allows the rider to hone that edge.

I like this post a lot-- and it does remind me of the truly "classical" origins of dressage: training horses solid in the battleground and beautiful in triumphal parades. Talk about 'honing competitive edge!"

Lost_at_C
Jul. 6, 2011, 12:19 PM
I do hope you are not serious!!!!

I am absolutely serious. In the sense that the spectator experience should never ever take precedence over training goals or judging criteria. Not of course that spectators should not be allowed, or appreciated, but frankly I have serious reservations about the impact of popularization on dressage. Yes, I know there are rewards but I haven't presonally been convinced of the overall benefits large audiences bring. I've lived in Europe and seen their way of doing things, so my opinion hasn't been formed in a bubble. Also, my own horses - though I prefer hot and sensitive types - have never had a long-term problem with audiences, and I feel that a certain level of aplomb should result from correct training. My reservations about audiences are philosophical, not practical. Which perhaps is why I retired from the horse business. ;)

Velvet
Jul. 6, 2011, 12:29 PM
Who's asking for special treatment?

(I'm not; I know my horse is distractable and has a pretty good spook, and no matter what I do, I'm not able to stop her before it happens 100% of the time. The "monsters at E" example I've used before was an open door by E leading into a very busy stable aisle and wash stall -- a bugaboo for many horses and not something normally found at a recognized competition. A complaint was made to the TD because it gave an unfair advantage to horses from that barn, because they were used to it. The door was closed after the complaint. I don't see a problem with that. My horse was wigged out by it and put on a bit of a rodeo, and rather than getting poo-poohed for "not being ready to show" I was praised for not getting tossed, and for having a better ride for the second test.)

I don't recall this subject being about you, nor any ride you had. :rolleyes:

Velvet
Jul. 6, 2011, 12:30 PM
I like this post a lot-- and it does remind me of the truly "classical" origins of dressage: training horses solid in the battleground and beautiful in triumphal parades. Talk about 'honing competitive edge!"

:yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:

CFFarm
Jul. 6, 2011, 12:36 PM
I like this post a lot-- and it does remind me of the truly "classical" origins of dressage: training horses solid in the battleground and beautiful in triumphal parades. Talk about 'honing competitive edge!"

As it should be. But we are talking big "D" (competitive) dressage in the US)-whole different animal (no pun intended). In otherwords-horse showing-whether we like it or not.

katarine
Jul. 6, 2011, 12:44 PM
If people are sitting in legal areas doing non questionable things, leave them be.

I had a fun experience on a seasoned horse in an enclosed arena where he'd been shown a zillion times. This was a moderately big show and a busy atmosphere. Not silence at all. But in the midst of us coming down a long side a lady opted in the middle of our HUS class to come crashing down the bleachers. Pushing an empty baby carriage. Bam Smack Bam Smack...this horse was pretty near bullet proof but he broke stride to do a WTF is that look before I could quickly put him back together. Even other spectators were giving her a WTH lady, knock that off. The gal ahead of me was even shaking her head, on her horse, LOL- the collective SERIOUSLY? was palpable. But bam smack there she went...

It would have been NICE if someone had said hey, hold up, dingbat. But they didn't, the judge was staring right at me, and I glanced to see him shaking his head. He knew my horse and me, but we were on the bubble to place better, and that thoughtless mother screwed me up just enough to knock me down in the placings.

Do I think the world should stop and sit in deathly silence to accommodate riders? No. Would it be NICE if peeps were more thoughtful. Yep.

I think the issue at dressage shows is often the lack of ANY noise- so if someone sneezes, it's startling. It creates this cone of silence over the pen that frankly can be a little distracting in itself. We should be able to chat and talk and take our jackets off without fear of censure.

Baby carriages banging down the stands, though: is that ok?

meupatdoes
Jul. 6, 2011, 12:47 PM
I don't recall this subject being about you, nor any ride you had. :rolleyes:

What on earth is wrong with her sharing her RELEVANT personal experience???

katarine
Jul. 6, 2011, 01:10 PM
It's bad because it's not All About Velvet. (www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eg-ckMup6SI)

mp
Jul. 6, 2011, 01:14 PM
What on earth is wrong with her sharing her RELEVANT personal experience???

Because this is VELVET's thread and VELVET gets to say what is and is not relevant.

Don't you know ANYTHING? ;)

katarine -- the baby carriage incident was perfectly acceptable. As was the black and white Great Dane that was cavorting up and down the stands during one of my rail classes at a big breed show on my so NOT bombproof horse.

As was the cleaning crew that opened up a HUGE overhead door and pulled a car in right behind the judge's stand as I was coming down centerline. They went into the nearby restroom and clanked around, came out, loaded the car up with several white plastic sacks of trash, backed the car out and shut the HUGE overhead door behind them. Just in time for X halt salute and leave the ring on a loose rein.

Wheeee!!!!! That was a test, all right.

Completely irrelevant, but I felt the need to share. Sorry, V.

Velvet
Jul. 6, 2011, 01:21 PM
katarine and mp, thanks for the laugh. :lol: I actually needed that today. ;)

But my response that drove this "all about me" thing was in reference to her reply where she quoted me when I said, "Train your horses to behave and stop trying to look for excuses for meltdowns and bad behaviors that are ultimately the rider's responsibility--not that of the audience. People have to stop asking for special treatment and follow the rules that everyone else expects to follow."

Then quietann posted this reply, which suddenly seemed as if I was directing my comment at her and some ride she'd had:

Who's asking for special treatment?

(I'm not; I know my horse is distractable and has a pretty good spook, and no matter what I do, I'm not able to stop her before it happens 100% of the time. The "monsters at E" example I've used before was an open door by E leading into a very busy stable aisle and wash stall -- a bugaboo for many horses and not something normally found at a recognized competition. A complaint was made to the TD because it gave an unfair advantage to horses from that barn, because they were used to it. The door was closed after the complaint. I don't see a problem with that. My horse was wigged out by it and put on a bit of a rodeo, and rather than getting poo-poohed for "not being ready to show" I was praised for not getting tossed, and for having a better ride for the second test.)

I was just wondering how she decided I was talking only to her and some thing she had done. I don't even know her, nor was the post about her, specifically. Just seemed really off the wall.

I do, however, appreciate the humor from you guys. ;)

atlatl
Jul. 6, 2011, 02:41 PM
I guess you don't know how people in business apply rules and changes to systems, etc. It was not pulling numbers out of the air. I stated that I was applying the 80/20 rule. It's a rule, not a polling.

The arrogance of your post pointing people to other sports is what I consider the ugliest part of our sport. To think that unwritten rules are to be obeyed because they make you (one out of how many?) comfortable is the height of hubris.

How does the Pareto Principle ("the 80/20 rule") apply? Are you saying 80% of complaints come form 20% of competitors?

Velvet
Jul. 6, 2011, 02:46 PM
80% of the riders train their horses correctly and they don't have a problem with spectators. 20% probably have problems--and we should NOT change the rules or allow them to boss around spectators.

That was the point I made.

atlatl
Jul. 6, 2011, 03:01 PM
80% of the riders train their horses correctly and they don't have a problem with spectators. 20% probably have problems--and we should NOT change the rules or allow them to boss around spectators.

That was the point I made.

Umm, not quite an accurate application of the Pareto principle. The 80/20 thing is not intended to reflect 100 percent of a given population, more like 80% of one thing is caused by 20% of something else. A correct application would be something like 80% of the complaints about spectators come from 20% of the riders. Two classic Pareto principle examples are that you wear 20% of your wardrobe 80% of the time, or in software development you spend 80% of your time fixing 20% of the bugs.

Wikipedia actuallly has a pretty good explanation of the Pareto priniciple and how it works as a business "rule".

Regarding the actual subject of the thread; I don't care if there are spectators at dressage shows or not. They typically don't generate revenue for the show organizers so frankly who cares whether there is an audience. That said, it is my job to train my horse and after years on the AQHA circuit, I hold my WBs to the same standard of equine behavior as I did my AQHA boys.

Velvet
Jul. 6, 2011, 03:15 PM
Did I claim it was specifically the Pareto theory/principle? Nope. It's a business principle applied best in IT. Application development, etc., are handled as an 80/20. 80 percent of the people's skills, understanding, needs are addressed and the other 20% have to find a way to work within the parameters.

From medianetlink.com (regarding software development): To apply an 80/20 Rule of requirements management, a line would be drawn from left to right as the cumulative percentage total of all requirements to the left of the point. A line is then drawn at the 80 percent mark, with those to the left, the significant requirements, and those to the right, the insignificant requirements.

Software companies like Microsoft understand this, and design for a product that addresses 80 percent of the requirements, leaving the last 20% as customizations by the end user.

katarine
Jul. 6, 2011, 03:25 PM
I call BS on the Pareto principle's best application being in IT. You made that up out of thin air.
You are talking out of your tophat, Velvet, but that's never stopped you before :)

http://www.bsu.edu/libraries/ahafner/awh-th-math-pareto.html

atlatl
Jul. 6, 2011, 03:50 PM
Did I claim it was specifically the Pareto theory/principle? ....

No, however you referred to the 80/20 rule which is the Pareto principle. A simple Google/bing/search engine or your choice inquiry will verify that.

The question I asked was about the Pareto principle and that's what you answered. Clearly you had no idea what I was talking about until I called you on it.

Methinks thou dost protest too much.

Velvet
Jul. 6, 2011, 04:09 PM
I call BS on the Pareto principle's best application being in IT. You made that up out of thin air.
You are talking out of your tophat, Velvet, but that's never stopped you before :)

http://www.bsu.edu/libraries/ahafner/awh-th-math-pareto.html

I work a lot in IT Infrastructure and Development (to make enough money to keep the horse's in oats). It's applied on a daily basis, as the quote shows. If you want the link, I can give you that, but I thought the name of the site was enough.

It's not used the same way the Pareto rule is used in economics. It's not truly the Pareto rule (which actually, if you look online, was not supposedly created by Pareto).

The 80/20 rule, as I used it in this discussion is the one used in information technology development and support. 80% of the people's needs are addressed in the development and 20% are left to fend for themeselves as their needs are not a part of the majority and would take more time to address than would prove necessary to meet the majority's requirements/needs. It provides an easy way to manage expectations and to keep scope creep from happening. (Okay, do I need to explain how IT uses the term "scope creep" as well? Or will that also be questioned.)

ANYWAY, back to the OT. People need to train their horses to be submissive and attentive, as the dressage directives state. If you cannot, then you really shouldn't be at a recognized show. Nor should you expect spectators to obey your every whim when they are behaving appropriately and within the rules as defined by the USEF or FEI.

There. 'nuf said.

Those who don't get it and think that Wikipedia is the beginning and end of all knowledge can go back to relaxing and knowing that the world's knowledge is in the hands of 10 year olds that only want to mess with your minds. (Or, if it's like Raj on "The Big Bang Theory," it's bored astrophysicists putting out bad information to mess with your minds. :lol: )

Velvet
Jul. 6, 2011, 04:11 PM
No, however you referred to the 80/20 rule which is the Pareto principle. A simple Google/bing/search engine or your choice inquiry will verify that.

The question I asked was about the Pareto principle and that's what you answered. Clearly you had no idea what I was talking about until I called you on it.

Methinks thou dost protest too much.

Nope. I answered. I never said I was quoting the Pareto principle. Never said that's what I was using. I was using the IT 80/20 rule. Just because you don't know about it, and refuse to follow my referenced source doesn't mean that you're right and I'm wrong. It means you are refusing to see that there's another use for a rule that considers a percentage of 80/20.

katarine
Jul. 6, 2011, 04:12 PM
Velvet, it's you who thinks BSU is Wikipedia. If you're going to quote me, apply yourself for two seconds to notice who I quoted. A professor at Ball State. You'll look less foolish if you'll pause a moment before you rashly assume all quotes come from Wikipedia.

katarine
Jul. 6, 2011, 04:14 PM
And no, that's not how scope creep is defined on the Project Management side of the world. I wonder how you earn your oats, Velvet, if that's your definition of scope creep. You might earn a cut in your oat ration at this rate!

http://maxwideman.com/pmglossary/PMG_S01.htm

Velvet
Jul. 6, 2011, 04:26 PM
You guys are all smoking dope or something. :lol: Never gave a definition of scope creep. Never said that all things you, specifically, referenced came from Wiki pages.

Okay, I'm done playing with trolls. I had my points. I made them. The majority out here seems to think that well trained horses are a must and those who decide to show up with horses that are used to living in a vacuum need to just realize they might have a blow up and need to leave the spectators alone. Kind of nice to know so many agree. :yes:

Following silly rabbit trails is for...well, rabbits that usually only have a couple things on their tiny little minds. :eek:

dalpal
Jul. 6, 2011, 05:01 PM
My original POST: I've heard many people complain that dressage shows are too quiet. That every one has to be absolutely silent so the horse in the ring is not upset. And the sad part is that this is really true here in the US. People are taught that the horse's concentration is fragile.

Um, yeah, not so true. Watch the international horses and the horses in Europe. They get used to a lot of crazy things going on around them. The horses also go on trail rides and see vehicles and other things. These horses are not treated like hot house flowers when it comes to seeing unusual things and learning to deal with them. If someone comes along and surprises them, the riders expect them to maintain or quickly regain their focus. That's part of the trust and submission.

At our shows, people standing in legal zones who might not be dressage riders are told to be quiet. To not move. I even saw a show last weekend where a horse doing a lower level test was rearing and spinning at people sitting in the stands. They were in the legal area. They should have stayed, but someone came along and asked them to leave (not the TD or any sort of show official, but a worked up mother or trainer). They all moved. Seriously? A horse misbehaving in that fashion needs more time in schooling shows before it goes back to recognized. Lesson learned. The rider was not in danger, they kept trying (correctly) to push the horse over to face their fear and get their mind back on the test. They were wrong in bringing such a super green horse to a recognized show. (IMO)

Another time someone else in a completely legal zone was asked to move because they were scaring a horse that wasn't even looking over in the direction of the person. Once again, not a show official and the person was, as already stated, legal.

More about STANDING than noise, but yes, noise is added. There are NO RULES about crowd noise. People are allowed. The PGA has rules that address distractions. Our sport does not. It is the rider's responsibility to do their homework and train their horse to be submissive and attentive to the rider. That's part of the scoring on the test. You cannot control the crowd, nor will any TD or judge control the crowd unless they are doing something dangerous.

Train your horses to behave and stop trying to look for excuses for meltdowns and bad behaviors that are ultimately the rider's responsibility--not that of the audience. People have to stop asking for special treatment and follow the rules that everyone else expects to follow.

LOL again...Velvet...I didn't realize that we had people policing the aisles for people talking. :lol: Do we have people taking names in the stands that I wasn't aware of?

I don't know why you keep beating the "train your horses" point. People aren't sitting completely still because they are scared that Susie Q's horse is going to bolt...they are trying to let the rider CONCENTRATE. Sure, there are horses out there who are nervous, but the majority are not.

You have given TWO examples and thrown out random numbers...give me a break. I have yet to see any of this drama at our local shows.

This is not a sport that is going to attract John Q. Public in this country. It's just not. And quite frankly, who cares? If you are upset that you don't have an audience when you ride, then you might want to pick up a new sport.

dalpal
Jul. 6, 2011, 05:04 PM
I guess you don't know how people in business apply rules and changes to systems, etc. It was not pulling numbers out of the air. I stated that I was applying the 80/20 rule. It's a rule, not a polling.

The arrogance of your post pointing people to other sports is what I consider the ugliest part of our sport. To think that unwritten rules are to be obeyed because they make you (one out of how many?) comfortable is the height of hubris.

Oh my....I think this is the most ridiculous comment I have read on this thread. Honestly, it sounds to me as if you don't enjoy this sport at all..that you'd rather nit pick everything that is wrong with it. Personally, I would just rather enjoy my horse and stop worrying things I have no control over. ;)

katarine
Jul. 6, 2011, 05:07 PM
Velvet, you are nothing if not predictable: if a person calls you on your patently wrong, self-involved BS you call them names.


Maybe Velvet doesn't have an audience for a reason.

mp
Jul. 6, 2011, 05:48 PM
The PGA has rules that address distractions. Our sport does not.

Actually, it does:

DR 122, 7-j

The judge may stop a test and/or allow a competitor to restart a test from the beginning or from any appropriate point in the test if, in his discretion, some unusual circumstance has occurred to interrupt a test.

So the judge can step in if something really wonky happens. The judge offered to let me do the last few movements of my test again. Unfortunately, my horse was DONE at that point (and so was I), so there wasn't much improvement. Although I did get a lot atta girls from people after the test. Apparently, I didn't look as panicked as I was.

And I just haven't seen the kind of drama or shushing or asking people to move you describe at local shows around here. Everyone just kinda watches and politely applauds.

If you really want an audience, try riding in a breed show class on Friday night at the American Royal -- loads of people, kids, dogs, strollers, whatever in the stands and they haven't got a clue about what the hell they're watching. But it's FREE and the horses are so PURTY!!!!!!

And afterwards, some of them roll those strollers right up to you, so the kids can PET the horses. Wheeeeee!!!!!!! Can you say Darwin Award winners? :lol:

If that's what you want for dressage, I'm not sure that's such a grand idea. *I* can deal with it, but some of the riders from my GMO might not be so happy about it. ;)

katarine
Jul. 6, 2011, 05:50 PM
Uh oh, more knowledge, more facts. This simply will not do.

I'm going to go ride my horse now :)

Sandy M
Jul. 6, 2011, 07:06 PM
And I saw a girl who benefitted from that rule: Dressage test being ridden while others going x-country at a horse trial. Someone fell off, loose horse ran through the middle of a test. Judge called to rider to halt, get her horse calmed down, and start again. Of course, the horse was totally buzzed and I think she probably would have had a better test without the..ah..."distraction" of a riderless horse running full blast through the dressage arena, but she got it back together and rode a decent test.

S A McKee
Jul. 6, 2011, 07:17 PM
BWAH!! Well said... and scribing for a hunter judge is far more monotonous than scribing for a dressage judge... IMO, based on personal experience. :)

Hunter judges don't have scribes.
They record the round directly on a card which they have to sign.
So from your 'personal experience' which rated HJ shows did you 'scribe' at???

InWhyCee Redux
Jul. 6, 2011, 08:16 PM
It's bad because it's not All About Velvet. (www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eg-ckMup6SI)

It's going to be a bumpy night! :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Alagirl
Jul. 6, 2011, 08:47 PM
I've heard many people complain that dressage shows are too quiet. That every one has to be absolutely silent so the horse in the ring is not upset. And the sad part is that this is really true here in the US. People are taught that the horse's concentration is fragile.

Um, yeah, not so true. Watch the international horses and the horses in Europe. They get used to a lot of crazy things going on around them. The horses also go on trail rides and see vehicles and other things. These horses are not treated like hot house flowers when it comes to seeing unusual things and learning to deal with them. If someone comes along and surprises them, the riders expect them to maintain or quickly regain their focus. That's part of the trust and submission.

At our shows, people standing in legal zones who might not be dressage riders are told to be quiet. To not move. I even saw a show last weekend where a horse doing a lower level test was rearing and spinning at people sitting in the stands. They were in the legal area. They should have stayed, but someone came along and asked them to leave (not the TD or any sort of show official, but a worked up mother or trainer). They all moved. Seriously? A horse misbehaving in that fashion needs more time in schooling shows before it goes back to recognized. Lesson learned. The rider was not in danger, they kept trying (correctly) to push the horse over to face their fear and get their mind back on the test. They were wrong in bringing such a super green horse to a recognized show. (IMO)

Another time someone else in a completely legal zone was asked to move because they were scaring a horse that wasn't even looking over in the direction of the person. Once again, not a show official and the person was, as already stated, legal.

What in the world is going on in dressage? First we have people asking us to continue to lower the levels for competing at recognized shows, and then people do not do their home work even for that level. The horses are unprepared--and I'm talking about an area with a gazillion schooling show opportunities. Then they pick on the spectators, who we are trying to attract to our sport.

:sigh: I think the problem is people look at our sport and think it's easy. Because it's supposed to look that way when it's done well. So they think that they can sit around like their in a barcalounger and get a ribbon. They don't do their homework. They don't do their job. There is no due diligence that they feel should be expected of them before they step foot in the show ring. And when they don't win or their horse misbehaves, they blame someone or something else.

:no:


:lol:
maybe some things changed in the last 25 years, but no, in Europe the Dressahge Horse is for most parts a hothouse flower, too, the shows very quiet, the ring tucked somewhere in the back.

Trail rides?
I know Klaus Balkenhohl did them, as did Klimke, but the general participant? Not so much.

DutchDressageQueen
Jul. 6, 2011, 08:51 PM
When I showed ponies in dressage ( in holland) it was always very busy at shows many rings next to eachother, and you could hear all the test readers screaming trying to be loud so the rider could hear. There were always many horses and people, and you really had to watch where you were going in the warmup, from the trailer to the warm up, and from the warmup to the actual ring, and since it rains a lot there, many people with umbrellas, and you think it is quiet? not so much. I did do trail rides! I remember I loved going on the occasional trail ride.

hrsmstr
Jul. 6, 2011, 08:55 PM
I'm relatively new to dressage but I must chip in here. If you attended the WEG, you know that the stadium..for ANY of the events...was packed full of people. I found it incredibly polite that in the events such as show jumping and freestyle dressage, (I saw Totilas! I did!), the audience was quiet. The music in freestyle hid much of the silence, but the show jumping? You could hear everything. You could hear the horse's grunt as he landed. You could hear, even with 20,000 horse crazy people in the stands.
And that, I think, is the point. The audience was quiet, not out of a hallway monitor holding a whip over our heads. We were quiet because we wanted to hear what was going on in the arena. We were quiet because it was the RESPECTFUL thing to do. Sure, there was the normal noise of that many people (i.e coughing), but overall, folks were quiet. Once the test was finished, we did a lot of cheering, but during it, we kept our mouths shut.
It was respect for the competitor, not someone telling us to shut up or be kicked out.
And I must say that, judging by the many flags I saw from other nations, especially the Canadians (who yell like fiends at hockey matches,) and Europeans, (who are even louder at soccer matches), we Americans were in the minority. EVERYONE was quiet. It was out of respect, please. If for no other reason....please give the competitor the respect of being silent until he or she is finished with her test.

Kaluna
Jul. 6, 2011, 10:02 PM
You guys are all smoking dope or something. :lol: Never gave a definition of scope creep. Never said that all things you, specifically, referenced came from Wiki pages.

Okay, I'm done playing with trolls. I had my points. I made them. The majority out here seems to think that well trained horses are a must and those who decide to show up with horses that are used to living in a vacuum need to just realize they might have a blow up and need to leave the spectators alone. Kind of nice to know so many agree. :yes:

Following silly rabbit trails is for...well, rabbits that usually only have a couple things on their tiny little minds. :eek:

People are trolls because they don't agree with you? Says alot about you.

People are small minded because they have different criteria for showing their horse than you do and probably show for different reasons than you do (you probably don't show at all but are a fierce railbird)? Says alot about you.

You seem super insecure and you obviously don't show much. You have alot to learn from the people who responded to this thread. Go reread the good responses here.

Shame on you. :no:

Velvet
Jul. 6, 2011, 10:12 PM
People are trolls because they don't agree with you? Says alot about you.

People are small minded because they have different criteria for showing their horse than you do and probably show for different reasons than you do (you probably don't show at all but are a fierce railbird)? Says alot about you.

You seem super insecure and you obviously don't show much. You have alot to learn from the people who responded to this thread. Go reread the good responses here.

Shame on you. :no:

And who's short term alter are you? Seems a few people out here have more than and use it to do their dirty work. :lol:

Kaluna
Jul. 6, 2011, 10:17 PM
And who's short term alter are you? Seems a few people out here have more than and use it to do their dirty work. :lol:

Oh brother. You have nothing better to say than to call me an alter because I don't agree with you. You underline my point. :rolleyes:

You don't like when people don't agree with you, you probably don't show, yet you like to complain about things. You seem sort of predictable.

What's your next thread going to complain about?

InWhyCee Redux
Jul. 6, 2011, 10:26 PM
Oh brother. You have nothing better to say than to call me an alter because I don't agree with you. You underline my point. :rolleyes:

You don't like when people don't agree with you, you probably don't show, yet you like to complain about things. You seem sort of predictable.

What's your next thread going to complain about?

Just for the record, Velvet, Kaluna is not my alter, because, as I have noted before, I don't have an alter. I do congratulate Kaluna on her succinct, well-put posts, though! ;)

Kaluna
Jul. 6, 2011, 10:53 PM
Just for the record, Velvet, Kaluna is not my alter, because, as I have noted before, I don't have an alter. I do congratulate Kaluna on her succinct, well-put posts, though! ;)

Don't worry about feeding the troll.

If your net income is greater than mine, I'll be your alter any day. I'll need to be used to your lifestyle, though. I'll tell you where to send payments. :winkgrin:

Molly Micvee
Jul. 6, 2011, 11:21 PM
Where are the Legal zones? Where are not considered legal?

One time I was lounging my horse next to an open air indoor arena where tests where going on. The back side where the judges where was entirely enclosed. I was behind the arena on the judges side but every time my horse came around her circle on the line, you could see her in the corner area of the arena where it was open. I must have been at least 30 feet from the back of the arena.

Well, one of the judges came up to me and told me to move because I was distracting a rider's horse doing a test.

It was the way I was told, like I should have been ashamed of myself, for being so inconsiderate and neglectful. I moved, but I wonder: was I in a legal zone, or illegal zone. Should I hae gone to prison? ok, forget that part. Molly

meupatdoes
Jul. 6, 2011, 11:42 PM
Excuse me Sandy, but haven't you been following along?

Relating real life anecdotes that provide direct examples of the points being discussed is otherwise known as "making this whole thread all about you."



And I saw a girl who benefitted from that rule: Dressage test being ridden while others going x-country at a horse trial. Someone fell off, loose horse ran through the middle of a test. Judge called to rider to halt, get her horse calmed down, and start again. Of course, the horse was totally buzzed and I think she probably would have had a better test without the..ah..."distraction" of a riderless horse running full blast through the dressage arena, but she got it back together and rode a decent test.

allison finch
Jul. 6, 2011, 11:52 PM
While American audiences might be more POLITE than European ones, the riders overseas are no less pampering of their horses. Ever read about Totilas' lifestyle before he was sold? Horrible. He was NEVER allowed in a turnout to frolic.

You really shouldn't stereotype us against them. I know two grand prix horses who event at the novice level. Not because their owners particularly like it, but because they know how much their horses like it.

You will find good/bad examples equally across the oceans. As for audiences.....Our audiences are often more polite.

InWhyCee Redux
Jul. 7, 2011, 12:09 AM
Don't worry about feeding the troll.

If your net income is greater than mine, I'll be your alter any day. I'll need to be used to your lifestyle, though. I'll tell you where to send payments. :winkgrin:

If I had any money to spare, I'd be riding my own pony right now (hey, it's cooler at night) and not typing on The One Cannot Be Disagreed With's Dressage Forum. ;)

Kaluna
Jul. 7, 2011, 12:41 AM
If I had any money to spare, I'd be riding my own pony right now (hey, it's cooler at night) and not typing on The One Cannot Be Disagreed With's Dressage Forum. ;)

Too bad, you seem like a nice real person who deserves an alter.

I'm available to be anyone else's alter if you have a substantial income and want an extra voice on this board. I'm easy and relatively cheap. :winkgrin: I might even agree with Velvet if the price is right.

k.

Velvet
Jul. 7, 2011, 09:27 AM
Where are the Legal zones? Where are not considered legal?

One time I was lounging my horse next to an open air indoor arena where tests where going on. The back side where the judges where was entirely enclosed. I was behind the arena on the judges side but every time my horse came around her circle on the line, you could see her in the corner area of the arena where it was open. I must have been at least 30 feet from the back of the arena.

Well, one of the judges came up to me and told me to move because I was distracting a rider's horse doing a test.

It was the way I was told, like I should have been ashamed of myself, for being so inconsiderate and neglectful. I moved, but I wonder: was I in a legal zone, or illegal zone. Should I hae gone to prison? ok, forget that part. Molly

This sounds similar to a friend of mine who owned a horse that was a roarer. She was lunging him in the legal lunging area, and she was asked to stop because a horse two rings away was freaking out from the noise. Seriously? :no:

Pennywell Bay
Jul. 7, 2011, 09:58 AM
[QUOTE=cnm161;5702361]I think there's more to the spectator problem than simple silence. How fun is it to watch 20 training level rides? QUOTE]

Yeah- I thought they were so quiet b/c the spectators are sleeping...............:)

cnm161
Jul. 7, 2011, 10:07 AM
Yeah- I thought they were so quiet b/c the spectators are sleeping...............:)

If nothing else, the shows are a great time for spectators to catch up on lost sleep :D

Sandy M
Jul. 7, 2011, 10:20 AM
:lol:
maybe some things changed in the last 25 years, but no, in Europe the Dressahge Horse is for most parts a hothouse flower, too, the shows very quiet, the ring tucked somewhere in the back.

Trail rides?
I know Klaus Balkenhohl did them, as did Klimke, but the general participant? Not so much.

As did (does?) Nicole Uphoff. I have a tape with her hacking through the woods, through water with Grand Gilbert.

Velvet
Jul. 7, 2011, 10:23 AM
Yeah- I thought they were so quiet b/c the spectators are sleeping...............:)


Oh, man, that's one of the best ones yet! :lol: :lol:

mp
Jul. 7, 2011, 11:07 AM
This sounds similar to a friend of mine who owned a horse that was a roarer. She was lunging him in the legal lunging area, and she was asked to stop because a horse two rings away was freaking out from the noise. Seriously? :no:

You sure do have a lot of strange stories about your friends. Reminds me of another very prolific poster who doesn't post here any more. Hmmmm ...

Velvet
Jul. 7, 2011, 11:12 AM
You sure do have a lot of strange stories about your friends. Reminds me of another very prolific poster who doesn't post here any more. Hmmmm ...

Okay, mp, that's hitting below the belt. :p

Xfactor
Jul. 7, 2011, 11:42 AM
Because I have A.D.D I didn't wade thru all the replies posted, but my little, unschooled comment is to this;

I've heard many people complain that dressage shows are too quiet. That every one has to be absolutely silent so the horse in the ring is not upset. And the sad part is that this is really true here in the US. People are taught that the horse's concentration is fragile.
Um, yeah, not so true. Watch the international horses and the horses in Europe. They get used to a lot of crazy things going on around them. The horses also go on trail rides and see vehicles and other things. These horses are not treated like hot house flowers when it comes to seeing unusual things and learning to deal with them. If someone comes along and surprises them, the riders expect them to maintain or quickly regain their focus. That's part of the trust and submission.'


One more than one occasion, and at 2 different locations, my daughter has been glared at, and "reprimanded" for daring to show up to watch me, with...*gasp*...a baby stroller!!!!!!

Mind you, she is a horseperson, so is VERY cautious and respectful with the thing. She wasn't trying to be tight ringside, but dang, was glared at for being on the GROUNDS with it!
Seriously, if a horse can't get a grip with new things, that is just sad and really speaks to training body only, and not the mind, IMO.


What do I know; I ride my horse in the woods sometimes. ;)

Thoroughbred1201
Jul. 7, 2011, 11:49 AM
BWAH!! Well said... and scribing for a hunter judge is far more monotonous than scribing for a dressage judge... IMO, based on personal experience. :)

Since when does a hunter judge use a scribe? I've scribed for dressage judges, but I've been on the A h/j show circuit all my life and never seen a scribe. Most H/J judges use a series of hyragliphics (sp?) so you seldom have to look down. Personally, it would make me nuts to have a scribe when I'm judging a hunter round.

As for boring, I'd say both lower level hunters and dressage are boring. The 3'6" & up hunters and a fourth level and above dressage test is about when things begin to get interesting, LOL.

meupatdoes
Jul. 7, 2011, 12:07 PM
Since when does a hunter judge use a scribe?

In normal reality, "personal experience" means something you, you know, personally experienced.

On COTH, "personal experience" means something you personally experienced the process of thinking about and picturing in your head how it might be.

See for example: scribing for hunter judges and people with lots of 'friends' to whom all sorts of stuff 'happens', either current posters or ones much missed from the days of yore.

mp
Jul. 7, 2011, 12:07 PM
Okay, mp, that's hitting below the belt. :p

You're right. :lol:

poltroon
Jul. 7, 2011, 12:10 PM
I remember when the 2000 olympic trials were held at LAEC, and the rule for absolute quiet and no people in the closest seats was being enforced. I thought it was madness. Here we were selecting horses to go perform in a stadium packed with 50,000 people, but we didn't want any to spook at a few hundred spectators at LAEC?

Gestalt
Jul. 7, 2011, 12:43 PM
Comments for what happens at 1:29: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06cTLVoDk9Y

For me Steffen was a really good rider until Ravel, now I think he is a great rider. He allows the horse to have mistakes, such as in this video, and then they get it together and carry on. He did ask the crowd in the corner to lower the 'woo-hooing', but I did not hear the announcer telling people to be quiet. And was that not a super bit of riding? He continues the test with absolute authority. Plus at the end Ravel shies a couple more times and after collecting him, Steffen releases the reins again.

This is such a lovely pair and they use exciting music. Very much crowd pleasers! :yes:

For the op, yes, maybe dressage riders should get their horses exposed more, or maybe you could go watch reining instead. Because really, even Grand Prix can be boring after a couple of tests for most people. Music helps. :winkgrin:

SillyHorse
Jul. 7, 2011, 12:58 PM
In normal reality, "personal experience" means something you, you know, personally experienced.

On COTH, "personal experience" means something you personally experienced the process of thinking about and picturing in your head how it might be.
:lol::lol::lol:

See for example: ...people with lots of 'friends' to whom all sorts of stuff 'happens', either current posters or ones much missed from the days of yore.
But this really is a bit below the belt, especially for dear Velvet. :lol:

Velvet
Jul. 7, 2011, 01:02 PM
:lol::lol::lol:

But this really is a bit below the belt, especially for dear Velvet. :lol:


Thanks, SillyHorse. :lol:

As for the experiences being mentioned, um, to that poster whom you quoted I'd just have to say, "Pot, this is NOT the kettle." :D

mp
Jul. 7, 2011, 01:23 PM
One more than one occasion, and at 2 different locations, my daughter has been glared at, and "reprimanded" for daring to show up to watch me, with...*gasp*...a baby stroller!!!!!!

Mind you, she is a horseperson, so is VERY cautious and respectful with the thing. She wasn't trying to be tight ringside, but dang, was glared at for being on the GROUNDS with it!
Seriously, if a horse can't get a grip with new things, that is just sad and really speaks to training body only, and not the mind, IMO.


There was a BABY STROLLER at ringside of the warm up for a schooling show. My horse (who has seen the damned things many times at Arabian shows) threw on the brakes and did the snort thing.

So we inched up to it, horse's ears pricked and snorting with each teeny tiny step. About 5 ft away, the baby woke up and giggled or gurgled. My horse dropped his head, heaved a big sigh, and turned around to look at me as if to say "why didn't you tell me it was just some kid?"

/personal experience

Getting your horse to trust you when new things rock their world is, indeed, part of training. If the riders would get over it, their horses would, too.

netg
Jul. 7, 2011, 01:41 PM
Last night I had my first in-hand lesson. My instructor was trying something with my horse, and all of a sudden he grew about 2 hands and did the back-end-under stutter step of an in-place spook. The neighbors had a new trampoline and he caught a flying kid out of the corner of his eye. His reaction was to look at me all wide-eyed, see me laughing, and exhale loudly then go back to work and not react at flying kids anymore.

I definitely agree with everyone that you can teach a horse proper response to scary things; I also think you can't teach a horse to never be startled by anything. I think constant music is much less disturbing than a sudden screech of speakers with feedback or suddenly yelling crowd. My horse no longer spooks at F-16s with afterburner going flying at low elevations - you hear them before you realize they're there, if they fly straight overhead - but still spooks at unexpected rustling in bushes on trail rides. It's whatever they get used to. I imagine large and loud crowds would be a good thing to desensitize any international caliber horses to. Fortunately or unfortunately, I don't have to worry about that one...

swgarasu
Jul. 7, 2011, 01:42 PM
Okay, I'm done playing with trolls.

Can you also let us know when you're done playing the troll?

:D

Velvet
Jul. 7, 2011, 01:49 PM
Can you also let us know when you're done playing the troll?

:D

Wow, um, I don't even know you.

I was not playing troll. Read the OP and see the discussion and then look at how it became derailed and went off into the land of the ridiculous.

I made statements based on real life experiences. Even my side disagreements with some posters were all about how things are used in the world outside of horses (80/20, scope creep, etc.). I applied them based on a context that was obviously outside the understanding of the other posters. Then, when I posted about friends experiences, I was derided. I can easily talk to one of them and have them post out here about their experience with the roarer.

As for the initial experiences, I was trying to avoid making it too obvious in case the people who were angst ridden enough to ask for specators to move were out here lurking. I didn't want to point fingers at a specific person.

If you guys all choose not to believe something, that's your perogative. Other posters out here know that I am not lying. I may have been in a mood yesterday where I was defensive and had lost my sense of humor, but the facts are still all true.

carolprudm
Jul. 7, 2011, 03:57 PM
Velvet...they don't yell "IN THE HOLE" until AFTER the golfer has hit the ball. I watch golf quiet a bit, and it is dead silent until the ball has been hit. Same with tennis, the audience is quiet until someone makes a mistake. These are sports that require concentration..so does dressage.

Yup, Tiger Woods would really get after people who were distracting him. FWIW at the US Open(golf) cell phones, cameras and MP3 players were among the long list of probibited items.

The only time one of my horses totally lost it at a show it was not because of any spectators. It was the resident PEACOCKS, unseen but not unheard :eek:

Velvet
Jul. 7, 2011, 04:12 PM
The only time one of my horses totally lost it at a show it was not because of any spectators. It was the resident PEACOCKS, unseen but not unheard :eek:

Your horse probably thought some woman was being murdered nearby. :lol: They are SO loud!

InWhyCee Redux
Jul. 7, 2011, 04:52 PM
Wow, um, I don't even know you.

I was not playing troll. Read the OP and see the discussion and then look at how it became derailed and went off into the land of the ridiculous.


Shouldn't that be "Read the OP and say, WOW, Velvet is 100-PERCENT CORRECT as usual! Agree that you are not going to respond except to say, WOW, Velvet is 100-PERCENT CORRECT as usual! Admit you have NOTHING to say because, hey, Velvet is 100-PERCENT CORRECT as usual!" :lol: :lol: :lol:

Kaluna
Jul. 8, 2011, 01:27 AM
Wow, um, I don't even know you.

I was not playing troll. Read the OP and see the discussion and then look at how it became derailed and went off into the land of the ridiculous.

I made statements based on real life experiences. Even my side disagreements with some posters were all about how things are used in the world outside of horses (80/20, scope creep, etc.). I applied them based on a context that was obviously outside the understanding of the other posters. Then, when I posted about friends experiences, I was derided. I can easily talk to one of them and have them post out here about their experience with the roarer.

As for the initial experiences, I was trying to avoid making it too obvious in case the people who were angst ridden enough to ask for specators to move were out here lurking. I didn't want to point fingers at a specific person.

If you guys all choose not to believe something, that's your perogative. Other posters out here know that I am not lying. I may have been in a mood yesterday where I was defensive and had lost my sense of humor, but the facts are still all true.

Oh for Gods' sakes, Velvet, just apologize for being snippy, like you admit you were in your last paragraph. Stop blaming and putting down others for crap because they don't agree with you. Reread the posts - think you don't understand what people wrote to you. You can get alot out of what people wrote.

CFFarm
Jul. 8, 2011, 09:51 AM
I think Velvet has a lot of guts and give her credit to keep starting threads as she seems to get attacked in most. These BB's are good for throwing different ideas out there and stimulating discussion, and I, for one, could do without the high school antics and mud slinging. Enough of my personal thoughts,..... carry on.

Velvet
Jul. 8, 2011, 10:20 AM
Velvet is 100-PERCENT CORRECT as usual!" :lol: :lol: :lol:

:yes:

Velvet
Jul. 8, 2011, 10:22 AM
I think Velvet has a lot of guts and give her credit to keep starting threads as she seems to get attacked in most. These BB's are good for throwing different ideas out there and stimulating discussion, and I, for one, could do without the high school antics and mud slinging. Enough of my personal thoughts,..... carry on.

Thanks! :D

Thoroughbred1201
Jul. 8, 2011, 10:49 AM
In normal reality, "personal experience" means something you, you know, personally experienced.

On COTH, "personal experience" means something you personally experienced the process of thinking about and picturing in your head how it might be.

See for example: scribing for hunter judges and people with lots of 'friends' to whom all sorts of stuff 'happens', either current posters or ones much missed from the days of yore.

LOL! Point taken.

On an off topic note, meupatdoes, the video you posted a few years ago of your baby green chesnut (Sooooo brave at home!) calmly backing out of the ring halfway through one of his baby classes still rates as one of my very favorites. Darling horse, clearly green as grass, and just as clearly, eminently sensible. I mean, jumps weren't a problem, but obviously something in that corner ate horses. Better to keep facing it while one backed up. Too cute. What's he doing these days?

meupatdoes
Jul. 8, 2011, 11:51 AM
LOL! Point taken.

On an off topic note, meupatdoes, the video you posted a few years ago of your baby green chesnut (Sooooo brave at home!) calmly backing out of the ring halfway through one of his baby classes still rates as one of my very favorites. Darling horse, clearly green as grass, and just as clearly, eminently sensible. I mean, jumps weren't a problem, but obviously something in that corner ate horses. Better to keep facing it while one backed up. Too cute. What's he doing these days?

That video was posted January 2010 and in the meantime he was year end open champ at First Level and Prix Caprilli in our GMO with scores up to 75+% and was jumping about once or twice a month before we left TX. (See here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9q-EXvZ_5w) and here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oh8PM4yEc-M).)

He was sixth year end in his local hunter division too.

He went to a dressage clinic in June and worked on (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyBS0OU5BbU)his big horse trot.

We haven't jumped since we left TX because we had been borrowing my trainer's saddle, but his brandy new custom made one arrives this weekend (!!!!!), next weekend is another dressage clinic and then the following weekend my showjumping friend is coming up to ride him around some bigger sticks. I. CAN NOT. WAIT.

Also he was chicken about that arena but last week doing our LSD on the roads he was very brave about two crotch-rockets that came SCREAMING around a turn towards us on the double yellow line (so fast the drivers' knees were amost scraping the road) and held his ground. So, you know, arena corner=scary, two screaming motorcycles coming right at him=no problem. :lol:

Overall he has persisted in his general trend of being a late bloomer and slow to "get it" but once he does, he is great.
I think he is worth taking the time though.

So that was probably more than you wanted to know but there you have it!
:lol:

Thoroughbred1201
Jul. 8, 2011, 01:54 PM
Meupatdoes;

Thanks for the update. He's certainly grown up! He jumps great! Loved the 'big boy' trot as well. Lovely, lovely horse. You'll continue having great fun with that one.

Do like the fact that arena corners are scary, but crotch-rockets are fine. Go figure. Maybe he sees dead people in the ring?

Kadenz
Jul. 8, 2011, 03:42 PM
Yikes, I hate to butt in here with my own personal experiences, but here I go... ;)

I've been on both sides of this issue (causing the "disruption" as well as riding through them) and I think the rider's attitude has a lot to do with it.

I was once glared at, and later scolded by, an FEI rider and professional trainer, because I had.....wait for it.....stood up from my chair, easily 25 feet from the side of the outdoor arena at a recognized show. Sure, it was a young horse, but the rider is very skilled and very competent - plus, the rider had come from a breed-show background, so you'd think she'd be able to handle, ya know, a person standing up during her TL-1 test. :rolleyes:

I froze when I realized the mare was spooking at me, and one of the rider's connections walked over to me, held me by the upper arm, and hissed, "That was YOU, you know. You caused that." You'd think we'd been at the World Cup or something....all over a slight spook in a TL test. Lucky for me, I was already acquainted with this lovely rider, but what if I'd been some poor spectator? I'd probably never go back to another horse show.

On the other hand, I was once was showing my own, fairly reactive and somewhat flighty WB in a dressage show in a big, quiet, echoey coliseum.
-------
(I will agree completely, for the record, that a big cavernous SILENT space is MUCH more difficult for a reactive horse than a little consistent background noise.)
-------
Anyway, we turned onto the diagonal for an extended canter, and a generator outside, directly behind us, roared to life and caused us to bolt to X, where I think I recovered enough control to call it an extended canter again. ;) And yeah, that silly bolt ruined ONE score in my test. But what can ya do? Smile, recoup, and ride on.

My take on it is that, yes, there are MANY dressage horses (and riders) who would benefit from some desensitizing and stepping off their precious little pedestals. And when shit happens, just smile and ride on. Hissing at people and expecting special treatment just makes you look like an ass, I don't care if you're the ammy from across the street or Isabell Werth. :D

katarine
Jul. 8, 2011, 03:48 PM
Is it a double whammy if your name is Isabell Ammy???

what's the coefficent on that moniker :)

MyssMyst
Jul. 8, 2011, 05:02 PM
I'm with Kadenz on this one. I have had the reactive horse, and when I had to show in a spooky indoor where I knew I'd have to deal with people getting up and moving around on the bleachers that were right at ear level for my horse, I compensated by having my friends walk on the bleachers as I went by, then running/jumping/yelling/dropping bags/etc and gradually increasing the noise until my horse was ok with it. My friends and I would take turns making noise in the stands for each other's horses, and it worked. Come show day, nothing fazed them. I did this every time I noticed a potential trouble spot at a show. The day before (if at all possible), I always toured and looked for trouble spots that I wanted my horse to see.

Rhiannonjk
Jul. 8, 2011, 05:05 PM
Then again, there are personalities that push the blame on others when bad things happen, or when they are stressed. I don't think this is simply dressage. Has nobody ever left a hunter round and blamed something on a spectator? I remember, as a kid, hearing about a big name eventer that shouted angrily at spectators on the cross country course as he galloped by.

In any situation, if people are going to get crabby, you are going to have crabby people blaming it on SOMEBODY. Not all crabby people - but enough that in all aspects of life you have people that catch heat from others that are under stress.

I don't think this means that we should cater to the crabby people.

(and with the example above, sometimes the groom/friend/showmom is more stressed/anxious than the rider and THEY are the crabby person)

DutchDressageQueen
Jul. 8, 2011, 05:12 PM
eventer that shouted angrily at spectators on the cross country course as he galloped by.



Just imagining this made me laugh!

staceyk
Jul. 9, 2011, 07:19 AM
Well, I sometimes marvel at people attending concert who shout to the musicians --trying to engage them in conversation between songs--and the ones that yell "in the hole" at golf tournaments--and all that folks that try to call attention to themselves at an event that is not about them. Very special people IMHO.

Horses are not machines. People spend incredible sums of money to train and show their horses. Maybe their horses should be desensitized more. But the point is, WHY NOT JUST SHOW THEM RESPECT AND CONSIDERATION?
--Standing up in the bleachers is not a crime, but try to anticipate actons that MIGHT cause a spook.
--Why not treat it like a concert performance? Stay seated while something is happening, if you can, or don't sit toward the front if you think you might need to leave.
-- Bringing a baby carriage? Young, fidgety kids in brightly colored clothes? Yippy dogs that get loose? Think about NOT bringing these things too near the horses, for so many reasons.
-- Ever hear of withholding your applause? Lots of events request it.

The show is not about you. It's about the horses, and the people who are out there trying to achieve a goal. We can enjoy watching, but can we try to keep in mind that this isn't nascar? Animals are animals, and they merit a little extra consideration...

paulaedwina
Jul. 9, 2011, 07:48 AM
I used to think that way, and would have agreed with you 2 years ago, but I had my eyes opened at a Western show. I learned that it is completely possible to have a high performance horse who would take all those distractions in stride.

Now that's what I want. This is not to say I'm going to go to a show and wave my terrible towel, but I no longer expect that my horse should freak out if someone did.

Paula

catosis
Jul. 9, 2011, 08:06 AM
What about the dumbing down of dressage in the US? I mean, posting trot at first level? Walk trot tests for adults? Come on.

I actually don't have an issue with the 'dumbing down' thing. Would you really expect a fairly new adult rider to have fun and be successful at a level that they were not comfortable riding? Obviously there are people who abuse the system by showing waaayyyyy under the level that they should be showing at, but these people are almost never beginners.

paulaedwina
Jul. 9, 2011, 08:22 AM
I think allowing the posting trot at first level is brilliant. The reality is that all horses do not require the same skills to sit the trot. I can sit the trot on Cody the QH and look brilliant, and try to sit the trot on Tempi the schoolmaster and look like an idiot. My skill level is the same, but the horse is different. And I know that if you can't trot you can't trot. You're not getting away with anything by posting.

Paula

Lost_at_C
Jul. 9, 2011, 11:18 AM
This is off topic, but allowing rising trot in First Level tests brought us in line with other countries... the point isn't so much to make life easier for beginners as to free up the horse's back and go easier on young horses at that level. All in all it's a good idea, though I think it reinforces the need for dressage equitation classes for adult amateurs. JMO.

Keeping on topic, Staceyk I really like your comparison of dressage competitions with a symphony or suchlike. I think as trainers we have a responsibility to ensure that we adhere to root principles that will naturally make our horses submissive and obedient in most circumstances. However, audiences should likewise understand the nature of well bred dressage horses and conduct themselves accordingly if at all possible. Accommodations needn't come from one side only.

DutchDressageQueen
Jul. 9, 2011, 01:04 PM
This is off topic, but allowing rising trot in First Level tests brought us in line with other countries... the point isn't so much to make life easier for beginners as to free up the horse's back and go easier on young horses at that level. All in all it's a good idea, though I think it reinforces the need for dressage equitation classes for adult amateurs. JMO.

Keeping on topic, Staceyk I really like your comparison of dressage competitions with a symphony or suchlike. I think as trainers we have a responsibility to ensure that we adhere to root principles that will naturally make our horses submissive and obedient in most circumstances. However, audiences should likewise understand the nature of well bred dressage horses and conduct themselves accordingly if at all possible. Accommodations needn't come from one side only.
:yes:

opel
Jul. 9, 2011, 08:01 PM
I agree with Paulaedwina. Many dressage horses and riders would benefit from a little "western sense". I started my current horse at a western barn. I was appalled at first, of all the things that went on while I was on my green, green horse. Baby stroller? Check. This was the only thing that really caused a melt down, buck off and broken rib(mine). It was around about the time of the buck off that I took a close look at myself and realized that my anger, my reactions and my stress about the "crazy" things where nothing more than a defensive reaction to my own fear. My horse really wanted to be fine with it all. She knew of no other way that things could be. I finally learned how to take a deep breath and accept all things as they were, scary or not.....to keep concentration on my riding and my horse, not on outside distractions. This has helped my dressage so much and has certainly helped us at shows. Fast forward to an important show ride (for me) when the wind whipped up, the arena blew down and the judges stand started making noises like the sinking of the Titanic. I praised the western barn at that point.....as my horse peeked over, then continued on with the test. So, yes, I think we dressage riders are too defensive about keeping the show area completely free of distractions.....to an embarrassing degree at times and to the detriment of our horse's mental well-being. Took an up-close and in-depth experience with non-dressage expectations for me to see and appreciate that though.

paulaedwina
Jul. 9, 2011, 08:47 PM
I test rode the horse I'm currently waiting on PPE for in a yard! The guy who was selling him gets horses on consignment, looks around auctions, etc. He is a cowboy. You can see from his ads (he stands on the horse :eek: and the like). http://www.adamshorsesales.com/about.html But his horses are solid. (See the video of brideless Ed - as typical he grabs mane and throws a leg over Ed, and rides him with a loop of twine/rope around his neck. ) I rode this horse in the rain on a gravel road, over rocky terrain, and then finally past the shed and the dogs into the yard to ride around a tree.

At first my brain went OMG we can't do this! Indeed as the horse passed the barking dogs in the pen, past the low part of the shed roof, the transformer, the electric switching station behind its own chain link fence, the copper sculpture and the fireworks stand he....snorted. That was it. The seller who was walking in front of me didn't even look around. There was no "there there" or apology for the distractions.

What struck me funny was that the seller was training me. Just like with his horses - I saw new things, thought I should be concerned, he showed none so we moved on.

Western sense.

Paula

quietann
Jul. 9, 2011, 09:27 PM
I think allowing the posting trot at first level is brilliant. The reality is that all horses do not require the same skills to sit the trot. I can sit the trot on Cody the QH and look brilliant, and try to sit the trot on Tempi the schoolmaster and look like an idiot. My skill level is the same, but the horse is different. And I know that if you can't trot you can't trot. You're not getting away with anything by posting.

Paula

All true. It pains me to see people sitting the trot on young/green horses... but so many people seem to think that you can't really be riding dressage unless you sit.

There are easily sittable trots and then there are... not so easy. Easiest so far was a pony who was like a little machine, and I swear I did not bounce because the little guy moved those little legs so fast. Most difficult? An old TB mare who, by her owner's report, "had taught a lot of kids to post the trot" simply because her trot wasn't sittable unless you really knew what you were doing.

My little Morgan, as it turns out, has such a smooth trot to sit! Yet another nice thing about her. I'd been avoiding sitting trot for various reasons, and then just started trying it, and she's *easy* (when she's not being a giraffe of course.)

Albion
Jul. 9, 2011, 09:50 PM
Well, I sometimes marvel at people attending concert who shout to the musicians --trying to engage them in conversation between songs--and the ones that yell "in the hole" at golf tournaments--and all that folks that try to call attention to themselves at an event that is not about them. Very special people IMHO.

Well, don't ever go to the opera in China. It's considered perfectly good form to shout "Good! Good!" in the middle of an aria if a singer is having a particularly spectacular run. People also clap and cheer at climactic parts. Somehow the performers manage to take all those people "try[ing] to call attention to themselves" in stride. Or maybe it's considered polite and even encouraging. Imagine that. :lol:

There is nothing innately "right" about a set of conventions. Other horse sports manage to put up with noise and distraction without causing meltdowns or inviting accusations that spectators are rude, inconsiderate, and attempting to hog the limelight.

Liz
Jul. 9, 2011, 11:06 PM
It is not just dressage. Go hooting and hollering around at a hunter jumper show and see if you don't get funny looks. I don't understand all these posts about people down on dressage shows and dressage riders. I like to show and, for the most part, the people I meet at the shows are nice people, not spoiled prima donnas, but nice people who like their horses. I was at a schooling show waiting for my ride (I was next). Some friends had come to watch and we were talking and laughing. Perhaps we were too loud. The husband and friend of the lady in the ring got very upset with us and said something, they were not nice. I knew the woman riding, not well but we had met in passing. After my ride I got off, walked over and apologized. I did not mean to distract her during her test, I honestly did not mean to be so loud. She looked puzzled for a moment and then laughed, she had been concentrating so hard on her test she had not even heard us. It was all good, no hard feeling at all.
I like to show and I enjoy the people I meet at show. If someone wants to post or sit first level......seriously don't you people have greater things to worry about.

dragonharte8
Jul. 9, 2011, 11:11 PM
Racehorses have to put up with the roar of the spectators, wow imagine these uptight dressage horses with that noise....bronco time.............

CFFarm
Jul. 10, 2011, 01:47 PM
Racehorses have to put up with the roar of the spectators, wow imagine these uptight dressage horses with that noise....bronco time.............

I get your point, but as with any horse, class and experience will tell. Some runners washout so bad from nerves they leave their race in the post parade and never make it as a runner. They ones you see in the big races are usually very well bred and handled by experts. But yeah, I can't see how exposing any horse to new experiences is a bad thing.

Big_Grey_hunter
Jul. 10, 2011, 01:55 PM
Racehorses have to put up with the roar of the spectators, wow imagine these uptight dressage horses with that noise....bronco time.............

Galloping is a bit different than asking a horse to be relaxed, in tune to your aids and moving correctly.

sadlmakr
Jul. 10, 2011, 02:29 PM
I think like everything else there has to be a balanced view towards a noisey audience. I do not like the screaming and stamping and whistling I see at some "Horse shows". It is distracting to me as a spectator.
I have seen horses get upset by it as well. After a Dressage rider has done her pattern and finished, I see nothing wrong with applause and cheers. But to the other extreme, is it really necessary? Where there are metal bleachers that resound with the stamping of feet on them, I find it irritating as well to have the stamping and shouting and whistling.
In a Dressage competition I like to concentrate onthe rider and her horse. Not on the loud and boisterous crowd in the grandstands. But that is just my own humble opinion and will not stop the Earth from turning on it's axis.
I guess it is each to his own.
regards,sadlmakr

up-at-5
Jul. 10, 2011, 03:33 PM
Just curious, Velvet, were you at Janes dressage mentor reunion in FL?

dragonharte8
Jul. 10, 2011, 03:55 PM
Galloping is a bit different than asking a horse to be relaxed, in tune to your aids and moving correctly.

Well, true, however, one should consider that a racehorse has various riders up and they need to communicate relaxing to the horse. Not all respond, true, but most do.

The point is that the roar of the crowd does not bother the majority of racehorses and dressage horses should be as sound bullet proof. Wouldn't ya think? :D

exvet
Jul. 10, 2011, 04:01 PM
I haven't read all but a few of the posts as this thread has evolved. I have shown in several disciplines and breed shows in addition to dressage. My horses are exposed to all sorts of stuff daily (I keep my horses at home) and trail ride A LOT. I also take my DQ horses on competitive trail challenges, usually as a buddy rider but sometimes will compete along with my kids. This venue requires the negotiation of obstacles, sounds, unusual sights, etc. To say that my horses are kid-proof (running, screaming, crying), bike-proof (including those with streamers, flags and noisemakers), ATV-proof, stroller-proof, dog-proof (I own 5 and foster more), cow-proof, long-ear proof (well all except my now deceased swedish warmblood, boy when I wanted extended gaits, put a braying donkey behind him :eek::yes:), flapping tarp-proof, etc would be putting it lightly.

Even after all the "proofing" I have one horse in particular that will never, ever be comfortable around tractors. Oh we have one and he's seen it every day. I acquired him when he was 2 and he's now 13 having competed through PSG. He is the same one who is less than enamored with gunshots. How do I know? My neighbor competes in mounted shooting so my horses are exposed regularly to the sound of a gun too.

Some horses just will never get use to or remain calm with certain sounds, sights or anything they perceive to be a threat regardless of how much natural training, sacking or whatever you want to call it you try/apply. So I can tell you that when I pay the FEI fees, the qualifying fees and all the other pleasurable expenses to compete that one horse, I hope that there are no tractors close by, no gun shots going off or anything else that he might interpret as the same. Am I a huge DQ who can't deal with real life? Is he a pampered hot house flower? Do I need to get him out more?

Despite understanding and having witnessed some extreme applications of "the need for silence and still" at dressage shows (with my thoughts of "seriously?" :confused:), I always read with some humor the sanctimonious "answers" that get thrown around regarding what "we" dressage riders demand. Because that same horse will swim across rivers, cross natural bridges, let our stupid barn cat ride on his back and a few other things I wouldn't share publicly that would lead someone to believe he's bomb-proof. The truth is he's a horse (prey animal) and I'm an amateur with a wallet of only so much size; so, I will admit to preferring and enjoying some "calm" during my tests so that I have at least a decent chance to show what I've been working on for all that time of preparation and practice. If that makes me a wimpy-spectator hating DQ, well, I guess I'm accurately tarred and feathered.

Oh and I back and start all of my own horses including my now 5 year-old stallion that I trail ride, show, take every where......so when I'm not chained to a surgery table doing my real work, I'm at home doing my homework [it's called horsemanship].

Arizona DQ
Jul. 11, 2011, 03:42 PM
Then again, there are personalities that push the blame on others when bad things happen, or when they are stressed. I don't think this is simply dressage. Has nobody ever left a hunter round and blamed something on a spectator? I remember, as a kid, hearing about a big name eventer that shouted angrily at spectators on the cross country course as he galloped by.


In the competitive dog obedience world, we say, "Train, Don't Complain"...... :winkgrin::winkgrin:

up-at-5
Jul. 11, 2011, 05:09 PM
I like that, DQ..Train, don't complain.
Where is Velvet to answer? Are you the same Velvet that was at the DM reunion?

MyssMyst
Jul. 11, 2011, 06:06 PM
In the competitive dog obedience world, we say, "Train, Don't Complain"...... :winkgrin::winkgrin:

Exactly!

DustInTime04
Jul. 12, 2011, 04:23 PM
Personally, I think the reason the dressage world prefers to be more quiet is because of the riders and concentration. Whether it looks boring or people think it's the easy route from riding, every level does require some degree of concentration. This percentage is not accurate regarding dressage riders picking dressage due to fear of jumping. It is so annoying that people are considered wimps if they don't jump... Jumping is not the most fun thing for everyone, and doesn't mean they are afraid. My trainer who is a Grand Prix level dressage rider that evented through the three day level (until she had a horse that did not want to event!) said dressage the further you go along is just at exhilirating as eventing.

I really don't think it has a thing to do with the horses trained to operate in 'silent' conditions. The art of dressage has all to do with concentration. If for some reason a horse is spooky and hot in the ring, it should be common courtesy to be quiet and maybe move some to help this rider. How can it be generalized that dressage riders don't train horses to be use to less-than-quiet conditions? Dressage horses can be just as hot as eventers, especially the higher the levels. Just like in sj rounds in eventing, shouldn't we be quiet? And if a horse acts up, shouldn't we not question training ability and understand that maybe there are other circumstances? And therefore be courteous and let these people get through their rides?!

Isabeau Z Solace
Jul. 13, 2011, 03:46 PM
Having worked in and with a large number of disciplines, I have to say that dressage riders as a group are unusually whiney. If you think it takes concentration to ride a dressage test, then I suggest you speak with a racing jockey. That takes concentration.

At speed. In a field of other thundering horses.

Or a driver who drives a 4-in-hand through a combined driving 'hazard' at full speed.

There seems to be one contingent of participants within dressage that wants to widen the sports' appeal and get more people spectating and participating. Other people seem to feel dressage is wonderful as it is, and if others don't like it they should stay home.

It is neither 'right' nor 'wrong' to have the show grounds noisier or quieter. There is disagreement between people which they think is preferable. But I don't see how anyone can say it is right or wrong either way.

Perhaps at the schooling show level we could start experimenting by advertising the show as either 'quiet' or 'raucous activity encouraged.' You get the idea. Then we can see how many people show up for either.

Horses are expensive. It can be difficult to spend buckets of time and $ on your horse and have your ride trashed because your mount gets upset over goings on around the show ground. And that is really where the bottom line is for a lot of people. Not that they want their mounts to be 'hot house flowers,' but they don't want their time and $ to get snorted down the drain... (ha ha)

On the other hand, I know well trained dressage horses that will spook over funny looking flowers at the letters, or a sound echoing from a far away hill behind a hedge. You just can't make the world 'safe' enough for them. They will spook at an odd divot of sand left from another horse that spooked !

Mardi
Jul. 14, 2011, 10:28 PM
Excepting Isabell Werth who wanted the jumbotron removed during the 2008 Olympics.

And wasn't Salinero led during the awards ceremony ?

Oh and...
"Next to go Dutch rider Anky van Grunsven. The crowd seemed to triple when she entered the schooling area. Salinero was a bit nervous in the electric atmosphere spinning several times at spooky objects. Anky stayed right with him and schooled him in a very long, loose frame around the entire schooling ring for the first half of her warm-up." ...from an article by Fallon Walker, 2/17/2010, on the Exquis World Dressage Masters competition in Wellington.

A horse is a horse no matter what side of the pond he's on. :)

Wellspotted
Jul. 14, 2011, 10:42 PM
And they work with people who may allow them to think it's appropriate to try to control every aspect of their environments, including the show arena.

Well, that's what a lot of people are like now. We're told we can control every aspect of our environment--and we do try to control everything ... except our kids and our dogs.

Velvet
Jul. 15, 2011, 10:25 AM
Well, that's what a lot of people are like now. We're told we can control every aspect of our environment--and we do try to control everything ... except our kids and our dogs.

Oh man, is this ever correct! And I do have to say that I love the backlash against having young kids and babies at expensive/upscale restaurants. Really, I mean, when I was a kid I was NOT allowed to go to them until I was old enough to behave and understand that you needed to behave like a little lady. You were super careful and it was a sign that you were grown up enough to be trusted to go to a restaurant like that--and it was only for something special like a birthday, etc. People didn't just drag their kids along and then not watch them and not check their behavior.

Sorry...I digress. ;)

MyssMyst
Jul. 15, 2011, 10:38 AM
Well, that's what a lot of people are like now. We're told we can control every aspect of our environment--and we do try to control everything ... except our kids and our dogs.

Amen!

Trevelyan96
Jul. 15, 2011, 06:20 PM
Part of the issue is also that show organizers, trainers, and other competitors have little patience for the 'greenie' at the shows. Its quite difficult to expose your inexperienced horse, who may come unglued at golf carts, umbrellas, and spectators, when everyone on the show grounds is screaming at you to take your horse home because he's upsetting them or their horse!

We went throug this earlier this year. Took our super greenie to a local schooling show, got a stall, etc., just to give him the experience. It did not go well, we had to take him home.

Next time out, we took them both with a few tabs of ace in their breakfast, since they were just there to hang out and get used to the environment and not to compete, perfectly legal, and it went quite well.

But most people don't have the financial resources to spend $60 for a stall 'just to hang out'.

Its a vicious circle. Horse needs exposure, but no one wants to deal with the greenie on the grounds.

sadlmakr
Jul. 15, 2011, 06:42 PM
I have noticed that some people are easily offended over most anything that "bothers" them.
Where are greenies supposed to get experience? Either horse or rider?
If a persons horse is so sensitive that any other horse that is not totally subdued will upset him, then he has a problem too.
Most of the ladies I know in the Dressage world are wonderful. Kind and tactful. But there are always the ones who are so stuffy and self anointed royalty that are sooo offended by anyone who "disturbed" them. We have far too many "Prima Donnas" in all the Horse World. Not just Dressage.
Have patience and respect for others and they will have patience and respect for you. ( And your Horse).
I think they call it the "Golden Rule"?
I was invited to a Dressage trial that was informal and laid back. It was so refreshing to see the women chatting as they were awaiting their turn. The horses were at ease too. I enjoyed watching the women go through their trails and they all did well. But it wasn't a big name event. I really enjoyed it as a spectator because it was informal.
After it was finished we gave everyone a big hand and went back to the shedrows to congratulate everyone.
Horses pick up on the mood of their riders. If you are hostile and irritated, the horse will be too.
Excuse me while I duck, then you can throw shoes at me.

Velvet
Jul. 15, 2011, 06:51 PM
Dressage "trial?" Never heard of that.

alicen
Jul. 15, 2011, 07:07 PM
I mean, when I was a kid I was NOT allowed to go to them [restaurents] until I was old enough to behave and understand that you needed to behave like a little lady. You were super careful and it was a sign that you were grown up enough to be trusted to go to a restaurant like that--and it was only for something special like a birthday, etc. People didn't just drag their kids along and then not watch them and not check their behavior.

Maybe the competitors would appreciate the spectators behaving like well brought up, in-check adults?

TheHorseProblem
Jul. 15, 2011, 07:32 PM
I have noticed that some people are easily offended over most anything that "bothers" them.


Some trolls on COTH are like that, too.

Velvet
Jul. 15, 2011, 07:43 PM
Maybe the competitors would appreciate the spectators behaving like well brought up, in-check adults?

In what way were the people in the OP not behaving as adults?

BTW, it is "restaurants.". I have made my own share of typos today--I don't think I should take credit for the creative spelling added to my comment. :lol:

smokygirl
Jul. 15, 2011, 09:53 PM
Actually, it does:

DR 122, 7-j

The judge may stop a test and/or allow a competitor to restart a test from the beginning or from any appropriate point in the test if, in his discretion, some unusual circumstance has occurred to interrupt a test.

So the judge can step in if something really wonky happens. The judge offered to let me do the last few movements of my test again. Unfortunately, my horse was DONE at that point (and so was I), so there wasn't much improvement. Although I did get a lot atta girls from people after the test. Apparently, I didn't look as panicked as I was.

And I just haven't seen the kind of drama or shushing or asking people to move you describe at local shows around here. Everyone just kinda watches and politely applauds.

If you really want an audience, try riding in a breed show class on Friday night at the American Royal -- loads of people, kids, dogs, strollers, whatever in the stands and they haven't got a clue about what the hell they're watching. But it's FREE and the horses are so PURTY!!!!!!

And afterwards, some of them roll those strollers right up to you, so the kids can PET the horses. Wheeeeee!!!!!!! Can you say Darwin Award winners? :lol:

If that's what you want for dressage, I'm not sure that's such a grand idea. *I* can deal with it, but some of the riders from my GMO might not be so happy about it. ;)

See this sounds like the Arabian shows I go too.. Only we let them pet the horses (unless the horses are obviously not wanting it.. like the yearlings arent usually approached, but they do usually have a class or two where spectators are invited into the ring) lol

mp
Jul. 16, 2011, 09:46 AM
See this sounds like the Arabian shows I go too.. Only we let them pet the horses (unless the horses are obviously not wanting it.. like the yearlings arent usually approached, but they do usually have a class or two where spectators are invited into the ring) lol

The show I was referring to is an Arabian show. ;) Spectators aren't invited into the show ring. But I always try to be polite to people who come down to watch. And I do let kids pet my horses, but not when I'm coming out of the showring.

VCT
Jul. 16, 2011, 11:28 AM
I've never had any problems with spectators. Umbrellas, strollers, wheelchairs, crazy hats, bright flowing dresses, etc... thats my problem if my horse can't handle it. We do get a good amount of spectators for local schooling shows in my area. I have had a problem (and I wasn't the only one) with a woman bringing her horse literally into the middle of the warmup and doing parelli games with him, which for some reason was causing him to rear and gallop around her in a tight circle. When she wasn't shaking the lead rope at him he was content to stand quietly and/or graze. No clue what the heck she was doing, but thankfully someone asked her to leave.

Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl
Jul. 16, 2011, 03:49 PM
Perhaps at the schooling show level we could start experimenting by advertising the show as either 'quiet' or 'raucous activity encouraged.' You get the idea. Then we can see how many people show up for either.

!

LOL - I have said for years that dressage shows would be a lot more fun if we followed the saddleseat tradition of having our fans holler, "There's your horse, Your Honor, THERE'S your horse!" whenever we passed in front of the judge.

Come to think of it, I did end up giving a sort of whoops and a holler before heading into the ring a couple weeks ago, and my horse puffed up and scored 4 % better than she did the next day, sans hoot. Maybe I need to start a new tradition. ;)

shiloh
Jul. 17, 2011, 03:49 AM
Hmmm, yes, riding in a vacuum. Oy....

I used to ride with a whole pack of women that could not, would not ride/school their horses unless it was dead quiet. One of them would have an absolute fit at the least little noise, get off her horse, put it away and slam out of the barn, muttering quite audibly about how rude we all were for making any noise. We couldn't laugh or talk or open our tack room doors - It was ridiculous. Then she would go to shows and expect the same tomb-like silence. Of course, her horse would, predictably, explode when noise, regardless of how small, was made. Really, get a grip - life goes on. If you want to ride in a vacuum then build your own facility and build a bubble around it.

smokygirl
Jul. 17, 2011, 06:35 AM
The show I was referring to is an Arabian show. ;) Spectators aren't invited into the show ring. But I always try to be polite to people who come down to watch. And I do let kids pet my horses, but not when I'm coming out of the showring.


Really.. Most are now. Last year they made a mistake on the classes (at nationals) though that they allowed... imo. The horses are stood up at the end, and the exhibitors come into the ring.. The yearling colts didn't want to settle down as much as another group would have (I think the WP or the aged mares or stallions would have been better). Most stood well, but you could tell they just wanted to go back to the stall.

paulaedwina
Jul. 17, 2011, 07:15 AM
For me, coming from the English tradition, the instinct is still to worry about distractions and expect the worst, even as I yearn for Western sensibilities with my horse. Fortunately for both of us he does have Western sense! I was working in hand with him yesterday, when my trainer took the opportunity to distract him. She said, "I'm about to distract him, heads up" but didn't tell me what she was about to do. My first reaction was like those people you see/hear at shows. I was annoyed, put out, etc. Then I got a hold of myself and kept doing what I was doing.

And she chucked the ball into the ring for the dog to fetch it. It's a half inflated kids ball so it makes a satisfying thunk when it hits the sand or the floor. In came the ball, in came both dogs. And Fella....did nothing. He looked and we kept doing what we were doing.

Later when we were training him to cross tie and he was in cross ties and I was grooming him, and my trainer sat close by talking to a mutual friend. They were laughing when my trainer jumped up to mimic a rather funny Parelli movement. Again, my response was irritation and I felt this urge to make them stop. I got over myself and let it go. Fella jerked his head up and made eyes at her movements, I told him to whoa and stand, he looked at me and that was the end of it. Mind you our cross ties are secured with twine so that if the horse panics and pulls away nobody gets hurt. So the jerk he gave was not substantial.

What am I learning? I'm learning that the behavior comes from me. It's instigated by my reactions. So as much as the horse is being proofed, I have to also be retrained not to have that initial wave of irritation/panic/etc. Goodness knows that's easier said than done. I plan on going on a ACTHA trail ride next month, and part of my head is thinking, "Oh no! What if...?"

JM0
Paula

kssherwin
Jul. 27, 2011, 10:06 AM
I never knew there was such a debate about noise in the dressage world. I grew up riding hunters/jumpers and dressage. I was at the Blowing Rock Horse Show in high school and decided to watch some of the Saddlebred show. I was awstruck as the crowd exploded yelling and beating on the bleachers for their favorite horses with the organ blaring music into the ring. Not one horse missed a beat whether it was a two year old or was carrying a six year old child. I was hooked, no more golf claps at the hunter shows for me. I have shown and helped train Saddlebreds for several different divisions from show pleasure to fine harness to 5-gaited. We ride inside and outside; our horses are kept up during show season and we do like to "air them up" in training with lots of distractions and noise like plastic bags attached to lunge whips and wafts of baby powder floating down the lane. In Saddlebreds we enter the ring at a trot and in many cases that means from a covered warm-up ring into a covered arena where the "shock" of the crowds, lights, noise, cameras and music all hit the horse at one time. Some horses may lose focus momentarily but they do regain it. I understand that most Saddlebreds don't perform movements like dressage horses but it does take the concentration of horse and rider to properly execute the horses' gaits (especially in the 5-gaited classes), to keep them in proper collection and keep their headset all with multiple horses in the ring (sometimes up to 15other horses) and lots of other distractions. My point is without the crowd our horses and our discipline would not be the same. Our horses and riders feed on the crowd and the crowd feeds off the response from the horses and riders. My daughter currently rides dressage and went to her first schooling show in May...it was all I could do not to scream and hollar for her during the test but you better believe the "Yeah Boy!" came out as soon as she was walking out of the ring to the horror of those standing around me. I do believe Dressage at every level could be a viable spectator sport because it is like reining in that there are multiple entries doing the same routine but, the difference is reining is fun to watch because the crowd is allowed to get behind their horse and in Dressage they would at the very least deeply frown upon you if not kick you out for doing the same thing. Its sad really. There is not a sport around today that has survived (or will continue to survive) without supporters/spectators. I will continue to exuberantly yell out my support for my favorite horses and riders as an appreciation of the dedicated training they have put in, in order to allow me to watch them perform. p.s.: life is short...ride him like you stole him.

Velvet
Jul. 27, 2011, 11:33 AM
p.s.: life is short...ride him like you stole him.

I've never understood that saying. I mean, if I stole the horse, I would hide him and feel guilty everytime I thought about going out and riding.

I ride my horse like I own him and he owns me! :D :yes:

mp
Jul. 27, 2011, 12:43 PM
Really.. Most are now. Last year they made a mistake on the classes (at nationals) though that they allowed... imo. The horses are stood up at the end, and the exhibitors come into the ring.. The yearling colts didn't want to settle down as much as another group would have (I think the WP or the aged mares or stallions would have been better). Most stood well, but you could tell they just wanted to go back to the stall.

The only place I've ever seen people invited into the arena was at Nationals following halter classes. At Class A shows around here and the Regionals I've attended (11 and 9), it doesn't happen. At least not that I ever saw.

But ... the point is, other disciplines are a lot more lax/relaxed about noise and spectators. I don't think that will ever be the case for dressage. I was at a recog. show in March when a guy started his 4-wheeler about 25 ft away just as my horse and I and another horse and rider were passing by on the way to the ring. My horse jumped a little, as did the other horse, but neither one lost it or even came close.

But the other rider :eek: had a screaming hissy -- she yelled so loud and so long, you'd have thought that poor SOB had lit the horse's tail on fire. meh Takes all kinds, I guess.

cb06
Jul. 27, 2011, 01:51 PM
....the crowd exploded yelling and beating on the bleachers for their favorite horses with the organ blaring music into the ring. Not one horse missed a beat whether it was a two year old or was carrying a six year old child. ...it was all I could do not to scream and hollar for her during the test but you better believe the "Yeah Boy!" came out as soon as she was walking out of the ring to the horror of those standing around me. ... Its sad really.

I come from the exact same wild and wholly saddlebred background and dressage really IS a different way to look at horse showing. I personally consider show 'distractions' an 'opportunity' to get my horse use to the atmosphere, concentrate on me, and carry-on.



p.s.: life is short...ride him like you stole him.

I love that quote...to me it means ride with some guts, and go down the road like you have some place to go. Trust me, get on a big saddlebred show horse and hit that show ring at a blistering trot, at night, under the lights, with people standing all along the rail hollering ....and you'll know what it means... :winkgrin:

alicen
Jul. 27, 2011, 02:15 PM
But, but ... we don't really want dressage horses to look like show saddlebreds with blistering trots. I mean, it's different, init?

cb06
Jul. 27, 2011, 02:20 PM
Not really comparing horses, they are different...it is more a comparison of rider attitude about the show atmosphere.

Sandy M
Jul. 27, 2011, 03:04 PM
Well, I can see it from both sides. I feel my horse DOES need to get used to ignoring distractions and listening to me. I try to expose him to a lot of stuff...but, he's inexperienced, he's hot, he's reactive and I WANT TO LIVE! So while I get him out there and ride him through the distractions, it can get pretty hairy and times, and while I feel he SHOULD get used to spectators in the grandstand, I do think kids running through metal bleachers isn't the nicest thing in the world to cope with during a test. He should get used to other horses, and he is learning, but that doesn't mean he won't react, and I DO worry about causing problems for OTHERS in the warmup. And just because he should cope with a lot of things, doesn't mean the unexpected isn't going to be a problem (Did the grounds crew HAVE to upend the garbage cans into a dumpster as I went by?, etc.) And yes, at 66, on a greenie, I am a LEETLE more apprehensive than I was at 37, tearing across a preliminary cross-country course or doing 4' jumpers!

Complete, reverent silence? No. A little consideration for greenies, yes.

Velvet
Jul. 27, 2011, 03:12 PM
Well, I can see it from both sides. I feel my horse DOES need to get used to ignoring distractions and listening to me. I try to expose him to a lot of stuff...but, he's inexperienced, he's hot, he's reactive and I WANT TO LIVE! So while I get him out there and ride him through the distractions, it can get pretty hairy and times, and while I feel he SHOULD get used to spectators in the grandstand, I do think kids running through metal bleachers is the nicest thing in the world to cope with during a test. He should get used to other horses, and he is learning, but that doesn't mean he won't react, and I DO worry about causing problems for OTHERS in the warmup. And just because he should cope with a lot of things, doesn't mean the unexpected isn't going to be a problem (Did the grounds crew HAVE to upend the garbage cans into a dumpster as I went by?, etc.) And yes, at 66, on a greenie, I am a LEETLE more apprehensive than I was at 37, tearing across a preliminary cross-country course or doing 4' jumpers!

Complete, reverent silence? No. A little consideration for greenies, yes.

But you DO go to schooling shows and leave your property in an attempt to help get him over a lot of those issues. I think the biggest ones are when the horse is losing it's mind and helicopter parents and coaches freak out for the rider. Or, when the horse is not really having a big problem and people blame their issues on other things outside the ring.

Now, if a horse IS having a melt down, people will generally stop. If for no other reason than they do it all the time when rubber necking at car accidents. ;)

Sandy M
Jul. 28, 2011, 02:28 PM
I will say that most fellow competitors and their friends/companions/grooms, whatever ARE considerate. If they see a horse (MY horse!) acting like an idiot in warmup, they will steer clear (for the most part) out of consideration for me AND their own safety (*G*), and knowledgeable spectators (and at MOST dressage shows, the spectators are both few and knowledgeable) tend to be relatively quiet during tests.

There are always, however, exceptions, like the gal whom I think was TRYING to deliberately upset other horses in warmup by zooming by at an extended trot with about 2 feet (if that!) clearance and/or refusing to follow common ring etiquette and yield appropriately. Wrong tactic to try with my old horse, who was unflappable, but I sure would be upset if someone tried that near my present youngster!

As I said early, reverent silence is not required - but I think that there are many, many horses - probably not bothered by much - that will sometimes find SOME happening distracting beyond their capability to ignore. My super-quiet, calm horse once did a flying leap from X, as we were changing rein on the diagonal at a medium trot, to B because the arena was situated within about 100 yards of an elevated freeway (hedge between show are and freeway but freeway elevated far above it) and a convoy of semis WHOOSHED!! by behind us. They made a much louder and stranger noise than the cars passing by and while I, as a human, didn't "notice" them, my horse certainly did. I also think things like kids playing on metal bleachers are something a bit "above and beyond" to expect a horse to totally ignore. Nice if they do, but even the most experienced and exposed to everything horse may react. At the same time, I'm not going to go off on a DQ rant at someone about such things: Manure happens. People can be inconsiderate, children out of control (Grrrrr), but what's done is done (as long as I can walk away from it in one piece. LOL) I may mutter to myself, but there's seldom any point in making a scene about it, other than, perhaps, mentioning it POLITELY to show management, in hopes that they may ask spectators to not permit their children to run riot, etc. (yeah, riiiight, that'll happen at a local show).

Deepinmanure
Jul. 30, 2011, 08:48 AM
If a horse is spooky and bolting at a recognized dressage show then it is time to go back to clinics and "fun" shows until the horse is ready to go out in public. It isn't appropriate for family /show staff to "hush" spectators unless there is something dangerous going on in the ring. As riders we have the responsibilty of preparing our horses for competition by getting him "out and about" befor hand.