How many have quit using daily wormers?

[free]

So much controversy about wormers and their effectiveness. What works best for you?

Some people view a glass as half full - some view it as half empty ... I spill it!

[free]

So much controversy about wormers and their effectiveness. What works best for you?

Some people view a glass as half full - some view it as half empty ... I spill it!

[Simkie]

<raises hand>

I think daily wormer has it's place, though.

When my gelding was boarded at a HUGE busy barn, I put him on strongid-c after he gas coliced twice in a 3 month period. He never did it again.

When I first bought Spirit, and there was NO WAY I could worm her, I slipped strongid-c into her grain.

I used to use it when I had a hard keeper, but now I do a panacur powerpac instead, and the weight goes right on. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Reginapony]

My present horse had to be paste wormed every six weeks or his fecal counts would come back positive. The daily wormer is very helpful in his case.

*Endurance Rider Wannabee!* (But...just passing thru...for now!)

[LisaX4156]

IMO, if a horse needs to be on a daily wormer, then the owner needs to look elsewhere for the worm problems: MANURE MANAGEMENT !!!

If the horse has constant worms then you have poor manure management and it needs to improve.

I've heard from several vets who shy away from the daily wormers because they don't like them. They say that they're a waste of money. Plus they also agree with the good manure management thing as well.

Better start cleaning those stalls better or the pasture to get rid of the worms.

Well... just thought I'd write..

Lisa

Owner of:

· AQHA Guerratera
· Murphy, 9 yr old Paint gelding
· Utah.. aka Ufology 4 y.o OTTB gelding..

[Evalee Hunter]

We use it. Have used it throughout 4 pregnancies & with foals almost from birth (as they shared Mom's grain). Have been generally pleased.

www.rougelandfarm.com (http://www.rougelandfarm.com) Home of TB stallion Alae Rouge, sire of our filly Rose, ribbon-winner on the line at Dressage at Devon.

[CactusLil]

We used it but stopped a couple of years ago. Our vet said that since we have a "small closed herd" (3 horses) it wasn't really necessary. We had a fecal test done on Boomer over the summer and it came back negative. I certainly don't miss the added expense. If I was boarding at a large facility I would probably consider it though.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't believe in political jokes - I've seen too many of them get elected.

[LMH]

I recently stopped...closed herd (3 horses, 2 mini donks), 20 acres...didn't seem necesesary

"I don't mind where people make 'whoopie', so long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses. --Mrs. Patrick Campbell (quote modified for young eyes)

[EqTrainer]

Agree w/Lisa.

[M Martin]

I don't like putting the chemicles into them daily so I stay away from it. A regualar deworming program with good manure management is very effective.
M

[showrider]

I have my own worming program that I have been doing with my older mare for over 7 years now. From November to march my horses are on the daily wormer. Before the weather changes, usually around the end of March, I will start them back to the paste wormers. I have NEVER had any problems with fecal tests, except with 1 place/person. She seemed to know what was better for my horse, that I have owned for 20 years, then I did. This is what worked/s for my horse all that time, why change it.

*****************************
President and Sole Founder of EA:
eBay Anonymous
"Hello, my name is___and I am an eBay-aholic and Paypal user."

[olympicprincess]

I've never had to do the daily wormer.
I currently board at a facility with 27 horses. Some people at my barn use it but it's usually those that have trouble paste worming...which I don't always understand. One lady's had her horse for over 10yrs and can't get it done! Guess she feels bad about upsetting the horse. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
Stalls are cleaned everyday, once manure pile has filled up area it's hauled & spread way back in the woods. The pastures, except for the teeny "hospital pasture", are never cleaned, but since the horses are in small groups on large pastures, I guess that makes a big difference. All the pastures have plenty of grass & they're out 8-12hr/day year round.

[Phaxxton]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by olympicprincess:
Some people at my barn use it but it's usually those that have trouble paste worming...which I don't always understand. One lady's had her horse for over 10yrs and can't get it done! Guess she feels bad about upsetting the horse. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Umm... she does realize that you still need to paste worm as well several times a year with daily wormer, right?!

[jherold]

I use it on the 22yr old because she has a history of chronic colic. The vets at Purdue who treated her recommended it after all the other diagnostic tests came back negative. They told me that "older horses just seem to do better on it." It's been 5 yrs and she hasn't coliced since.

[Faded Dreams]

I really dislike the paste wormer as i learned that if i went with the daily wormer and not chageing that i wouldnt have to pay the 6,000$ colic surgury the org. would We have a thing that if your on the daily wormer that if your horse gets colic THEY would pay up to 5,000$ of it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif So im going back to the daily wormer and corn oil stuff....

Tiff

*founder of the Appendix QH clique*

*member of the Mighty TB clique *

[Kiwayu]

I agree with JumperStar. My horse is on the daily wormer for the insurance purpose AND because I take him off property a lot. Where I take him is a public horse area, and no one cleans up after their horse. So who knows who's been there. I always found my horse got diarrhea the day after I took him off property since he grazes there sometimes. The daily wormer has helped with that a lot.

[Lookout]

Horses don't get diarrhea from worms, they get it from new feedstuffs to which they're not accustomed to and don't have the correct microflora to digest it yet.

[BarbB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by showrider:
I have my own worming program that I have been doing with my older mare for over 7 years now. From November to march my horses are on the daily wormer. Before the weather changes, usually around the end of March, I will start them back to the paste wormers. I have NEVER had any problems with fecal tests, except with 1 place/person. She seemed to know what was better for my horse, that I have owned for 20 years, then I did. This is what worked/s for my horse all that time, why change it.

*****************************
President and Sole Founder of EA:
eBay Anonymous
"Hello, my name is___and I am an eBay-aholic and Paypal user."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Could you explain more about this?
Why daily wormers in the winter and paste wormers in the summer?
Or are you just doing 6 months of each and the season doesn't matter?

BarbB

...virtue shall be bound into the hair of thy forelock... I have given thee the power of flight without wings

Tapestry (http://www.tapestry659.50megs.com/)

[Schatten]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Horses don't get diarrhea from worms, they get it from new feedstuffs to which they're not accustomed to and don't have the correct microflora to digest it yet. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

huh? i don't think that's right. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

http://community.webshots.com/user/lskel84

[Horsaholic]

This is timely.. I am considering not buying it when I run out this time which is soon.. I think I am the only one at the barn feeding it!? My horse never had a worm problem before he was on it either.. I just fed it because I was told it was really good.. What I don't like is putting chemicals in his system everyday http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

[BelladonnaLily]

I started the daily wormer a couple of months ago. My reason? My weanling and I were making a total mess during paste wormings, and while we were getting some in there (keep in mind I almost NEVER have anyone else at the barn with me to help), I wanted to be safe. I keep the others there on it just to have them on the same program. The two mares I have at another barn are not on daily wormer. The insurance thing is appealing too. I've heard of it but don't know any details...can anyone elaborate?

This is a great thread though. Please keep the information and opinions coming in as I'm new to this.

[Jumpper/Hunter]

Answer these questions first.
1) Do you have barn cats?
2) Do you have birds?
3) Do you have mice?
4) Possibly racoons?
5) Maybe some horses in the barn not adequatley de-wormed??

I feel safer knowing my horse is covered daily. Birds, mice, racoons, oppossums all carry tape worm. Not to mention all the other types of worms out there. YUK!!!!

[EqTrainer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jumpper/Hunter:
Answer these questions first.
1) Do you have barn cats?
2) Do you have birds?
3) Do you have mice?
4) Possibly racoons?
5) Maybe some horses in the barn not adequatley de-wormed??

I feel safer knowing my horse is covered daily. Birds, mice, racoons, oppossums all carry tape worm. Not to mention all the other types of worms out there. YUK!!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Does the daily dewormer kill tapeworms?

I would not be too sure that it kills every variety of worm known to domestic and wild animals http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif I'll bet they have a whole list of native nasties our horses usually don't!

I did know someone once whos horse had been turned out with cows and got some worm load that was apparently not usual in horses from them. I think they had to double Ivermectin it a number of time before they were all gone... persistent little buggers http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

[Kiwayu]

I agree with Schatten02. I don't think that statement is right either. When I spoke to my vet about my horse having diarrhea at the time, the first thing she asked..."When was he wormed last?" Besides my horse hasn't had diarrhea since he's been on the daily wormer.

Go here for info on the Colic Insurance Program...http://www.pfizer.com/ah/equine/preventicare/preventicare.html

[hoopoe]

http://www.thehorse.com/news.asp?fid=4579

Here is a link to the life cycle of the tapeworm,.

Cats dogs pigs horses cows etc have their own tapeworm

BUT THEY ARE NOT DIRECTLY CONTAGIOUS EXCEPT IN VERY RARE CIRCUMSTANCES YOU WILL LIKELY NEVER ENCOUNTER. And that circumstance is animal to people

Horses get tapeworm from the mites in the environment that carry the intermediate form of the tapeworm. It is very specific to the horse. The horse eats the mite, it is digested and the tapeworm develops to adulthood. It can be in pasture or in forage.

Go to www.thehorse.com (http://www.thehorse.com) and search their database for excellent articles relating to parasites.

Parasites of animals are, for the most part, very species specific. Horses get almost all of their intestinal parasites from other horses. The eggs are deposited in the environment via feces and develop there to an infective stage. The horse eats the infective stage ( usually a microscopic larvae) and it develops to adulthood.

Some parasites will pass through the placenta and infect foals.

Bots start with the fly who lays eggs on the horse. Horse eats eggs and the bot develops from there.

Ivermectin does not kill Tapeworm. For years most people have used large doses of Pyrantyl which acts as a purgative ( boomolax method) The "new" product Praziquantal is not really all that new. It has been used for many years in livestock, dogs cats and people. It makes the worm digestible. It was a Godsend when it came out on the small animal market ( dogs and cats) Prior to that we used a Nicotinic acid tablet that you gave after a 24 hour fast. It was simply a purgative. Prevention of fleas and hunting was the only way to manage reinfestation. When Praziquantal and a related compound came out it was so nice to have a product that worked and did not cause vomiting and diarrhea.

This months "The Horse" email newsletter special is a full slate of Parasite articles.

Again, this magazine remains one of the best sources for solid information that is topical, current and timely. The articles are easy to read and often come with many links or references to the original studies they were taken from.

_\\]
-- * &gt; hoopoe
The ancient Greeks did not write obituaries. They only wanted to know if you had a passion.

[This message was edited by hoopoe on Nov. 14, 2003 at 11:38 PM.]

[Jumpper/Hunter]

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

And this is why I can sleep better at nite.
PLEASE READ...

Tale of the Tapeworm

By Christine Barakat


Though generally less worrisome than most parasites, tapeworms can be a serious problem in warm-weather areas and on farms with concentrated populations. The usual treatment for tapeworms is a triple dose of a pyrantel paste dewormer twice a year, but new research suggests that feeding the daily pyrantel dewormer is more effective in controlling the parasite.

An independently funded study conducted by the Horse Research Center in Ocala, Florida, used three different treatments on 24 horses, all of whom were kept in tapeworm-infested pastures. Ten of the horses were treated daily with pyrantel tartrate (Strongid C), 11 received triple doses of pyrantel pamoate paste (Strongid) every eight weeks, and three control horses received ivermectin every eight weeks. Tapeworm levels in their feces were measured every two weeks throughout the 26-week study.

At the first two-week check, only one of the horses on daily Strongid C had tapeworms, says Jan Kivipelto, MS, who headed the study; by the fourth week, all 10 were worm-free. Of the horses given the triple doses of Strongid, two showed signs of tapeworms four weeks after treatment, and those horses continued to shed tapeworms through week 10 of the study. Of the horses treated with ivermectin, at least one, and sometimes all three, tested positive for tapeworms every two weeks throughout the study, indicating a continuous infection.

Kivipelto says it's unclear why daily deworming is more effective against tapeworm infestation, which can cause unthriftiness and recurrent colic. "As far as cost goes, I don't think there is a lot of savings in giving triple doses of Strongid twice a year as opposed to feeding Strongid C daily," she adds, "especially when you consider that the Strongid may not be taking care of all the tapeworms."


The article is from EQUUS Magazine, Issue 248 (June 1998), copyright 1998 by PRIMEDIA Enthusiast Publications, Inc. All rights reserved.

Here's another...Although once considered to be a benign inhabitant of the equine gastrointestinal tract, recent research suggests
that the equine tapeworm, A. perfoliata, may be a significant cause of colic. In fact, reports of colic associated
with tapeworm infections have increased over the last decade. Although the cause of this rise is unknown, some
have attributed it to the use of dewormers that do not address tapeworms. A thorough grasp of the life cycle of
the tapeworm, diseases caused by tapeworm infections, and techniques used to diagnose infection is essential to
understanding the importance of addressing tapeworms in your deworming program.

Here's the LINK...TapeWorm (http://www.pilchuckvet.com/resources/tapeworms.pdf)

[Flash44]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LisaX4156:
IMO, if a horse needs to be on a daily wormer, then the owner needs to look elsewhere for the worm problems: MANURE MANAGEMENT !!!

If the horse has constant worms then you have poor manure management and it needs to improve.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gee Lisa, so what do you recommend those who board at large facilities do? Muck out all 25 paddocks daily?

[Jumpper/Hunter]

Lisa,

So your barn doesn't have birds that swoop down and pick the grain out of the manure, or birds that sometimes share with their fellow horseys when they eat their grain.

Do you do a 24/7 racoon & possum watch??? Oh ya, don't forget the mice & rats and those stray cats that come in and are most certain not dewormed them selves.

I would rather give my horse something daily then end up in colic surgery and then realize oh no http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif shoot, I should of given him a daily dewormer.

[Flash44]

I have 3 horses in 3 separate pastures at my house, and it is a chore to pick out those pastures. I have tall grass, and if I walked every inch of every field every day, it would take me almost 2 hours. I pretty much go through each field 3x a week, but this is dependent on weather, my schedule (working mom) etc. Plus, my grass is so tall, the pitchfork gets tangled in it and it is very hard trying to get the droppings into the wheelbarrow without breaking up. Maybe I could hire someone to walk behind my horses with a pitchfork and muck basket so the droppings don't ever touch the ground.

[Jumpper/Hunter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Flash44- Maybe I could hire someone to walk behind my horses with a pitchfork and muck basket so the droppings don't ever touch the ground.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[EqTrainer]

Sooooo... what did your horses last fecal indicate?

[LawnOrnamentLuvr]

I am thinking of taking my horses off Strongid C. As I posted on other threads here, I've had two horses have very high parasite loads while never missing a dose of Strongid C and getting paste-wormed every two months with rotating wormers. I'm disgusted at the expense of feeding the daily wormer, pasting every other month and still having to do the five day double-dose worming once a year.
As I posted before, I make it part of my yearly health care to pull blood for an IGGT,which measures the titer to parasite load. My vet was astonished at my latest horse to test highly positive, because he knows I'm a fanatic about worming schedules and using the Strongid C. The fecal was negative, which is indicative of blood worms, or encysted strongyles.
I am thinking about calling Pfizer and telling them my experience and see what they have to say. I used to be a huge fan of Strongid C, but I just can't justify the expense any more.
To all you other Strongid C users.. ever pull an IGGT and find your horse positive? Or am I the only one doing them? Just curious.

Lawny

[2487lyf]

I think it is a waste of money if a little tube of stuff every few weeks works just as well!

~*~Nattie~*~ (http://community.webshots.com/user/nattie2006)
*Maryland Clique*
*Non-GPA Clique!*
*Warmblood (Hanoverian) Clique*

[Coreene]

Tiff, remember that you have to be registered through Pfizer to be covered on the Strongid program, and it all has to go through your vet. You're not covered just by using Strongid you buy at the feed store.

[hoopoe]

Why do you think these animals coming into the barn are giving the horses intestinal parasites?

Relax that is not where they are coming from.

_\\]
-- * &gt; hoopoe
The ancient Greeks did not write obituaries. They only wanted to know if you had a passion.

[Jumpper/Hunter]

RELAX???? Yes they can get it from them. I know this sounds silly, but if that barn cat uses the stall for potty, and the horse sniffs it, or if the bird drops while sharing the grain and ingest's it....on & on.

I know it's not the primary source, but they do pass it, just like cats do to other cats, birds to birds, etc etc.

Just listening to the advice of my vet... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Laugh all you want!

[Oakstable]

What does your vet charge to run a fecal test? or a blood test to check the titer?

Is there another way to get testing of parasite loads done?

[hoopoe]

You might want to ask your vet specificly what kind of parasite s/he is talking about.

Intestinal parasites are the topic here. Parasitic disease and disease causing organisms such as those that cause EPM Erlichia Giardia etc, yes there is concern.

_\\]
-- * &gt; hoopoe
The ancient Greeks did not write obituaries. They only wanted to know if you had a passion.

[Erin]

Jumper/Hunter, I'm with hoopoe here... WHAT do you think you're protecting your horse from? I have never heard of birds, cats, or any other critters passing intestinal parisites on to horses. Are you thinking of the EPM parasite? This HAS been shown to be carried by possums, and possibly other animals... and there was at least one study that suggested daily dewormers might work against the EPM parasite. But other than that, I don't think you have much to fear from cat or bird poop. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I started doing the daily once I did some research into it and understood how it works. A paste worming program is designed to purge the horse of parasites on a regular basis, so the worm load never builds up enough to cause major problems. But between paste wormings, your horse IS picking up parasites and they ARE doing internal damage. You're just purging them before they cause MAJOR damage.

The dailies kill the parasites on a daily basis, while they are still in the intestinal tract and before they've migrated into the tissues. So the horse doesn't have the chronic low-level parasite load that it would with a paste wormer.

Now, obviously paste wormers work just fine and are perfectly appropriate for keeping parasites under control. I just think that the dailies probably do an even better job, and I don't find the expense to be too bad, so that's what I've done.

It is a good idea to do a fecal once in a while, though... I haven't done that in a while, and I should.

The deal with the insurance thing is that if you're using Strongid C (or C2X) you can enroll in Pfizer's PreventiCare program through your veterinarian. You have to have your vet check your horse twice a year (I think) for a basic physical, and you have to buy the Strongid directly from your vet -- if you do all that and your vet signs off, Pfizer will pay up to $5000 (I think) toward colic surgery if your horse needs it. There are some other restrictions... I know there's an upper age limit, although I don't remember what it is.

I had my younger horse in PreventiCare for a while, but it just turned out to be too much of a hassle to get the wormer from my vet. Now I buy the generic kind in the big 50-lb containers, so it makes it more economical.

I did an article on PreventiCare a couple of years ago... some of the specifics may have changed since then, but it's probably a good overview: http://vetcentric.com/magazine/magazineArticle.cfm?ARTICLEID=1022

[Lookout]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flash44:
I have 3 horses in 3 separate pastures at my house, and it is a chore to pick out those pastures. I have tall grass, and if I walked every inch of every field every day, it would take me almost 2 hours. I pretty much go through each field 3x a week, but this is dependent on weather, my schedule (working mom) etc. Plus, my grass is so tall, the pitchfork gets tangled in it and it is very hard trying to get the droppings into the wheelbarrow without breaking up. Maybe I could hire someone to walk behind my horses with a pitchfork and muck basket so the droppings don't ever touch the ground.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

or you could break up the manure with a harrow. if the pasture is big enough that the horse is not grazing with its nose next to a manure pile, it's a non-issue.

[Lookout]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LawnOrnamentLuvr:
I am thinking of taking my horses off Strongid C. As I posted on other threads here, I've had two horses have very high parasite loads while never missing a dose of Strongid C and getting paste-wormed every two months with rotating wormers. I'm disgusted at the expense of feeding the daily wormer, pasting every other month and still having to do the five day double-dose worming once a year.
As I posted before, I make it part of my yearly health care to pull blood for an IGGT,which measures the titer to parasite load. My vet was astonished at my latest horse to test highly positive, because he knows I'm a fanatic about worming schedules and using the Strongid C. The fecal was negative, which is indicative of blood worms, or encysted strongyles.
I am thinking about calling Pfizer and telling them my experience and see what they have to say. I used to be a huge fan of Strongid C, but I just can't justify the expense any more.
To all you other Strongid C users.. ever pull an IGGT and find your horse positive? Or am I the only one doing them? Just curious.

Lawny<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What worms showed up on the fecal? Isn't Strongid C only for strongyles anyway? The problem with daily wormer is that it promotes resistance in worms which sounds like has happened to the worms in your area.

[Lookout]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kiwayu:
I agree with Schatten02. I don't think that statement is right either. When I spoke to my vet about my horse having diarrhea at the time, the first thing she asked..."When was he wormed last?" Besides my horse hasn't had diarrhea since he's been on the daily wormer.

Go here for info on the Colic Insurance Program...http://www.pfizer.com/ah/equine/preventicare/preventicare.html<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Getting diarrhea the NEXT day from ingesting worm larvae? I don't think so. The lifecycle of the worm is longer than 24 hrs and takes that long to have an internal effect. Diarrhea the next day from eating new grass and not having the appropriate microflora - yes.

[Jumpper/Hunter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:
Jumper/Hunter, I'm with hoopoe here... WHAT do you think you're protecting your horse from? I have never heard of birds, cats, or any other critters passing intestinal parisites on to horses. Are you thinking of the EPM parasite? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I was told not only does it work on intenstinal, but also for any kind of worms, via picked up by birds, mice, etc...

I guess I stand corrected and will talk to my vet more. Thanks. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

[Catwoman]

My horse is on the daily, and has been for most of his life (he's six). Both of my horses live at home. I am very scrupulous about manure control, and composting. I do trailer four times a week to the training center, where he is often put into paddocks where other horses (for the most part, all well cared for) have been.

It is just my personal opinion that this is the best method of parasite control for my horse. I was once told at a seminar by a leading clinician that it is the 'cadillac of parasite control'. I do give him ivermectin twice a year (he is not difficult to paste worm). If someone were to prove to me that this was not the best method then I would change.

I do not believe that daily deworming is more likely to lead to parasite resistances---certainly not as much as the haphazard approach that many people use with the paste dewormers.

[Flash44]

Why break up the manure with a harrow? Scatter the worms around? They only die when the temp is very high or very low. Plus, it would still leave manure in the fields. I'd rather remove it and compost it.

Plus, I have tall grass. You can't see the piles until you are right there. I don't have grazed to the roots paddocks where the manure piles are highly visible.

[Evalee Hunter]

Flash--I think breaking up the manure & spreading it was thought to expose the worm eggs to sunlight which could then kill them. I'm not sure that modern day thinking (& experiments) show that sunlight is very effective in killing worm eggs.

The other good thing about harrowing manure, though, is that you avoid "roughs" where the horses develop bathrooms in particular areas. Does this make worms worse or better? I don't know whether sunlight kills the eggs or whether containment of manure is better. I do know I have read some worm eggs can live up to 10 years in an environment with no horses.

Hoopoe--I think there was one minor error in your post. Regarding bot eggs: I believe when the horse rubs its nose/lips/mouth on its leg where the eggs are, this stimulates the egg to hatch & release a larva which is ingested by the horse (NOT the egg is ingested). It always amazed me this could take place so quickly. This quick transfer is one reason I wonder about the effectiveness of "manure management".

www.rougelandfarm.com (http://www.rougelandfarm.com) Home of TB stallion Alae Rouge, sire of our filly Rose, ribbon-winner on the line at Dressage at Devon.

[Izabella]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lookout:
Horses don't get diarrhea from worms, they get it from new feedstuffs to which they're not accustomed to and don't have the correct microflora to digest it yet.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Horses, just like people can get diarrhea from worms!

[Lookout]

Not within 24 hours of contact with them.

[LEP Enterprises, LLC]

The amount of chemicals that it takes to kill a tiny little parasite probably will not cause much harm to your 1200 lb horse http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

________________________
*London*Hannah*Kirsche*
*Gryphon Bay & foal on the WAY!!!*

[Liz]

I think it depends on your situation. I am at a public facility that often holds schooling shows and has people trailer in to take lessons. With all the traffic I just feel like a dailey wormer works best. By the way I also alternate a paste wormer every 3 to 4 months. You can not just rely on a daily wormer.

[mwalshe]

I used to have a horse that was a horrendously hard keeper after a bad colic episode while being shipped. I think, if I had known then, that a daily wormer could have really helped him? It seems to be good for horses that are under a bit of extra stress or that have a compromised digestive system.

Not too sure I would bother with it on a horse that was ordinarily healthy, unless in a big boarding situation or something.

Very interesting about the blood test results. I don't think I've ever had that done, except once on a rescue horse. Will have to add that to my yearly checkup in future!!

[Bumpkin]

I have Elliot on daily wormer, through SmartPak. I was told by two local Vets that they have not had any cases of colic from horses on a daily wormer.
One Vet who did have a case of colic said the company covered the surgery, and it did not have anything to do with worm caused colic.

You don't have to feed the Strongid C to be covered. The Continuex also covers you for colic surgery.

"Proud Member Of The I Love Dublin, Starman Babies, Mini Horse, Sunnieflax and Horse Boxes Cliques"
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[Shiaway]

tape worms

Strongid C does not protect against tape worms.

My horses were on it for years and I supplemented with ivermectin but didn't know you need to also double does with strongid paste. Suddenly Jeff lost about 150lbs! Turned out he was infested with tape worms.

Both horses had it. His fecal was clean otherwise. It's been a year and a half since we found out he had such a bad infestation of tapes and he still has them even after double dosing twice with strongid p (did absolutly nothing!) and then having my vet importing the australian stuff in. We did that twice and now a third time. I hate tape worms! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

So I took them off strongid C. They are only two horses at home. Working out my worming schedule I am still doing all of the regular paste worming on top of the daily so what's the point for a closed herd?

I know where they got, too. We had a horse come in who was very underweight. I wormed him and he regained weight. I bet anything they got it from him. So we cleaned out the pasture which took a long time since it is a very large pasture. But still...

My vet said cornell has been starting to see resistance in worms to the daily dewormer...

[LawnOrnamentLuvr]

Lookout, I do think my horses are encountering resistant worms. Both had negative fecals, but encysted strongyles don't show up in fecals, necessarily. My vet said a high parasite load with a negative fecal is most likely due to encysted strongyles. The blood test costs about 30-35 $... depending on your vet and the lab used. My vet doesn't charge for fecals.
I'm going to call Pfizer and ask them their opinion on this situation.
As I said, I also paste worm every other month and yet they still both came up positve for a high parasite load. I retested them with a follow up IGGT after doing the five day double-dose thing.. and both were negative. (I used Safeguard).
BTW, I did have a serious colic despite my horses being on StrongidC. It was not caused by worms, however, per the vet.
I really don't know the answer to this problem, but I can't justify spending huge amounts of money on StrongidC if I still have to paste that much. I'll post what I find out from Pfizer.

Lawny

[Jumpper/Hunter]

How do you guys start the process of Strongid or Continuex?????

My vet came out & de-wormed and then we started the Strongid.

Could it be those that are having problems with tape be because they weren't killed initially??? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

God I hope I am not wasting my $$$

[whitehawkfarm]

Lookout is correct, IF the horse gets diarrhea the day after leaving the property it is PROBABlY (not certainly!) from eating new forage that their stomach is not familiar with. Before I had my own farm, I used to take my horses across the street to graze once a twice a week. My vet told me that was a huge problem because when I took them, the developed the microflora to digest the new grass, but then I didn't take them back for days, and each time was a little "mini-shock" to their system. No, they probably would not die from it, but they could, and did, get diarrhea. Of course, worms can also cause the problem. Just thought I'd put my two-cents in since I know for a fact that Lookout is correct about getting diarrhea from unfamilar grazing. TAke care.

[Jumpper/Hunter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shiaway:
tape worms

Strongid C does not protect against tape worms.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Read this article Tape Worm (http://horse.purinamills.com/bulletins/taleofthetapeworm.htm)

[Oakstable]

Do those of you who are having an over infestation of worms feed some kind of sweet feed?

[Erin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bumpkin:
You don't have to feed the Strongid C to be covered. The Continuex also covers you for colic surgery.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, I didn't know Farnam had duplicated Pfizer's program. Interesting... I just checked out the info on the Farnam website (http://www.farnamhorse.com/products/continucare.htm), and Farnam doesn't require that you buy the Continuex from your vet. Hmm. I might have to do some math and look into this! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jumpper/Hunter:

Read this article http://horse.purinamills.com/bulletins/taleofthetapeworm.htm<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My vet also told me that the daily dewormers don't protect against tapes, so I do a double dose of Strongid paste every year.

The study Jumper/Hunter has referred to is about 5 years old... I wonder if later studies contradicted the results of this one?

[Bumpkin]

When you purchase your daily wormer through Smartpak they send you the paste wormer twice a year.
Elliot is fat and glossy, I have no intention of taking him off his daily wormer.

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[Jumpper/Hunter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin: My vet also told me that the daily dewormers don't protect against tapes, so I do a double dose of Strongid paste every year.

The study Jumper/Hunter has referred to is about 5 years old... I wonder if later studies contradicted the results of this one? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Erin, that one is 5 years old, but here's some current ones. You have to page down just a little.

Here's a sum up of the article "The best method of strongyle control currently recommended is to administer a small quantity of a deworming
compound (pyrantel pamoate) to the individual horse's ration daily. This compound is marketed as Strongid-C® (also Continuex and Equi Aid CW) and is very effective in those management systems in which horses are fed individually."
Here's the link to see the whole article dated Sept. 2003 Controlling Internal Parasites (http://www.cce.cornell.edu/orange/GOaug-sep03.pdf)

[Erin]

Right, but for tapeworms, the article recommends a high dose of pyrantel pamoate. The daily dewormers are pyrantel tartrate.

The daily dewormer labels don't claim effectiveness against tapeworms either... although obviously the study in the first article you linked to seemed to show that the dailies WERE effective.

Now that I think about it, I think my vet's recommendation was to use Strongid paste instead of ivermectin once a year... I don't remember if she said if the daily dewormer was effective against tapeworms or not. Maybe there just hasn't been enough research done into it for the companies to claim effectiveness against tapeworms on the label...

[J. Turner]

I know Farnam has to cover their butts, but gosh that's a lot of paperwork to keep track of ... or maybe not ... just receipts from vet visits and purchase of wormers?

Now my horse colicked almost a year ago and "got bettah" with only fluids. Does that count as a "colic"? Does simple gas colic count?

It says you have to have to consult w/ your vet regarding dental stuff -- what if you have an equine dentist?

It also says you have to use one vet. Does that mean you can't take your horse to a lameness specialist?

I can't afford colic insurance so I'm very interested in one of these programs if anyone has input on one of them.

Also, my vet found his horses and some of his client's horses ended up losing the bloom in their coats after being on Strongid-C after 2 years. Any else find that?

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[joannej]

WHen it comes to tapes, the new GOLD dewormer should take the mystery out of it. I will use it next month, just to be sure.

[Erin]

J. Turner, I had my horse in the Pfizer program for a while, and it wasn't really that complicated. (Don't know if the Farnam one is different.) The vet just did a physical exam twice a year when she did their vaccinations, and then signed the paperwork. I think they pretty much take your vet's word on the vaccinations and such that your horse has had done.

I would think that if your vet just signed off saying that yes, your horse had his teeth looked at, they probably wouldn't care who did it. And I doubt they'd care if you went to a specialist, either.

The Pfizer program really wasn't much trouble, except for having to get the wormer directly from my vet. That was a little bit of a hassle, and was really the only reason I stopped doing it.

[Shiaway]

My horses were on the daily dewormer for years and whatever that older artcle said, they got a bad infestation of tape worms.

And the strongid paste which is the pyrantel pamoate I believe didn't help all that much.

In fact before just recently there was no approved dewormer for tape worms in this country. That's why my vet had to import it from Australia. Now I think they have just come out with the same product here.

The insurance doesn't cover my horses who are both over the age of 17. Nor does regular horse insurance. I will be getting regular horse insurance for Sol so I don't need the worming insurance from Strongid C.

[Jumpper/Hunter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Erin:

My vet also told me that the daily dewormers don't protect against tapes, so I do a double dose of Strongid paste every year.[QUOTE]

Did a Google search, not trying to offend anyone just trying to be helpful as I am so confused by all the lingo in these articles. But here's one I found interesting.

Says that Strongid does control Tapeworm-Here (http://www.pilchuckvet.com/resources/tapeworms.pdf)

For those who don't want to read the whole article, this is what it says about Tapeworm & Strongid. "TREATMENT AND PREVENTION. Since there is no dependable way to diagnose a potentially life threatening tapeworm infection, it is currently recommended to routinely deworm horses with an anthelmintic effective against tapeworms. It cannot be
overstated that most commonly used dewormers are not effective against equine tapeworms. Ivermectin (Zimectrin, EqValan), moxidectin (Quest), and fenbendazole (Panacur) do not kill tapeworms. The only licensed
products effective against equine tapeworms are pyrantel pamoate (Strongid) and pyrantel tartrate (Strongid C). In order to control tapeworms with pyrantel pamoate, a dose of two to three times the label dose is recommended. Pyrantel tartrate should be administered daily according to the label directions. Praziquantel is another drug that has been shown to be effective against equine tapeworms. A single dose of this drug may be effective in controlling tapeworms. Your veterinarian will have more information regarding the use of praziquantel to control
equine tapeworms." DATED 2000

So, cause I want to do whats best for my horse, what do you guys do besides Strongid or Continuex and how often do you do??

Thanks

[Reginapony]

If sweetfeed attracts worms, I better check myself! I find that sweetened tea, chocolate and boston cream donuts my weakness, as well as a help at fighting cancer. Boston cream donuts makes the chemotherapy go down easier!

(sorry about poking fun at you, on such a serious topic, I couldn't help myself!)

*Endurance Rider Wannabee!* (But...just passing thru...for now!)

[Erin]

No offense taken, Jumper/Hunter. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I'm just sort of wondering aloud at what seems to be conflicting information...

FWIW, I just looked up the label information for Strongid paste, and THAT doesn't claim effectiveness against tapeworms either, even though it's obviously widely recommended for that use. Maybe it's some weird FDA labelling requirement or something... got me!

As for what I do... my guys get Equi-Aid CW (same thing as the other daily dewormers), and get paste wormed with Ivermectin in the fall and a double dose of Strongid in the spring.

[Simkie]

I wonder about that study that J/H posted. First of all, neither article is published in a big veterinary journal. Secondly, the horses in the study were not euthanised and disected to determine if they had tapeworm infection. Fecals WERE performed, but we all know that fecals only catch parasite infestation if the little buggers are at a particular stage in their life cycle.

I've not had problems with tapes, but posters here--like Shiaway--have. And Strongid has not been effective for them. Strongid is NOT labeled for tapes. The ONLY wormers in the US which are *labeled* for tapes are Equimax, Zimectrin Gold and Quest Gold. They contain praziquantel.

J/H, if you want to make sure your horse is tapeworm free, use one of the new wormers. They've been proven effective, and strongid hasn't.

[Peggy]

I think that the Continuex program only required a vet exam every year. You also had to fill out info on the vaccinations and floating (records that you should have anyway). I think they implied that all of the work had to be done by the "attending vet." The Farnam rep that I talked to said that you weren't covered for non-parasite colic. In other words, if your horse had enteroliths (sp?? - intestinal stones) they wouldn't be covered by the program.

[showrider]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BarbB:

Could you explain more about this?
Why daily wormers in the winter and paste wormers in the summer?
Or are you just doing 6 months of each and the season doesn't matter?

BarbB
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have been doing it that way for years. It just breaks up the schedule a little, that's all. They say to change wormers when paste worming them. I fell this way when I give them the double dose in the spring, they are more then ready to go...in a sense.


Um, there is one ything no one has mentioned. You need to take a look at the different daily wormers out there. Some are NOT as strong as others. The Strongid C is only 1.06% Pyrantel Tartrate wehre as teh Continuex is 2.11%. The strongid C2X on the other hand has the double strength form of the original Strongid, making the 2X 2.11% as well. I have been giving the Continuex for just that reason.
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[This message was edited by showrider on Nov. 17, 2003 at 08:22 AM.]

[Shiaway]

like I said, whatever those things claim, strongid C and also double dozing with strongid Paste didn't do didly for my horses. the strongid P helped a little but not signifigantly.

When my horses went through all this I did research on tapes and one of the articles I read which was in a prominant horse magazine said there was no approved drug in the US for tape worms at that time which was last year.

[Kandace]

There has been research, I believe summarized in "The Horse," that the efficacy of daily dewormers decreases to as low as 60% over an extended period of time. There are also questions about the long-term damage to the horse's liver with the use of daily dewormers.

I crunched numbers and figured out that for about half the cost of daily deworming (which also requires at least 2x yearly purge deworming), I can purge-worm my horses once a month, alternating the chemical used and using ivermection in the spring and fall. Now that Zimecterin Gold is available, I may substitute it for the straight ivermectin.

I have three horses who range in age from 8 to 27. The 27-year-old has been on this routine for most of the last 20 years, and is in unbelievably good health (he carries a half-workload and our vet is always amazed by how great he's doing). All three horses are very easy keepers -- each gets three to four flakes of grass hay a day and a handful of grain, except on frigid winter days.

Kandace

The greatest use of life is to spend it for something that will outlive it -- William James

[EqTrainer]

J/H... I understand that study to say that the Strongid PASTE, if doubled/tripled in dose, controls tapeworms. Not the daily.

Hence our schedule of a double tube of Strongid in the fall.. kills bots and tapeworms - HOPEFULLY. Maybe we'll make it a triple http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

It IS tough to deciphre all this. Any vets care to comment?

Shiaway, what did your vet get from Australia?

[Erin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by showrider:

The Strongid C is only 1.06% Pyrantel Tartrate wehre as teh Continuex is 2.11%. The strongid C2X on the other hand has the double strength form of the original Strongid, making the 2X 2.11% as well. I have been giving the Continuex for just that reason.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But I believe you give twice as much Strongid C as you would give 2CX or Continuex or Equi-Aid. When given at the recommended dose for a horse's weight, all of the dailies are EXACTLY the same amount of pyrantel tartrate. They're completely interchangeable, in my understanding.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EqTrainer:

J/H... I understand that study to say that the Strongid PASTE, if doubled/tripled in dose, controls tapeworms. Not the daily.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, the last study she posted mentioned the daily... "The only licensed
products effective against equine tapeworms are pyrantel pamoate (Strongid) and pyrantel tartrate (Strongid C)."

Although I still don't understand why none of the labels mention that they're effective on tapeworms. Argh! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[EqTrainer]

Got that, Erin.. but in what dose? It doesn't say... maybe you need half the container of the daily at one time to kill them off.... &lt;LOL&gt; I think it's a somewhat misleading statement from them.

[Erin]

"Pyrantel tartrate should be administered daily according to the label directions." http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I guess it's just the pyrantel pamoate that has to be given at a higher-than-usual dose.

[EqTrainer]

Slap to head... filling coffee cup http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif downing some more DayQuil....

Ok... so do you interpret this to mean that you could deworm with an Ivermec product and then put the horse on daily dewormer and it would eradicate their tapeworm load thru daily use OR that you would have to purge w/a double or triple dose of Strongid Paste and then put them on the daily dewormer to then CONTROL their tapeworm load (as they became reinfested)?

This whole thread makes my fingers itch to shoot some dewormer down their throats.... aaack.

[Simkie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:

No, the last study she posted mentioned the daily... "The only licensed
products effective against equine tapeworms are pyrantel pamoate (Strongid) and pyrantel tartrate (Strongid C)."

Although I still don't understand why none of the labels mention that they're effective on tapeworms. Argh! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The last "study" she posted is an ARTICLE. It could be wrong, and it appears to be. NOTHING on the Pfizer site says that either Strongid is effective at removing tapes. It's also obviously out of date. The praziquantal wormers *are* licensed to be effective against tapes.

I assume the drug Shiaways vet got from Austrailia is one of the praziquantal wormers. They've been in use there for years.

Something else to note is that Equimax and Zimectrin Gold do NOT contain the same amount of praziquantal. Equimax doses it at 1.5mg/kg, and the gold stuff doses it at 1mg/kg.

Showrider, you need to consider the dose amount for the daily wormers. The % is lower in regular Strongid because you feed more. In the end, it's the same (or it should be the same) amount of drug.

[Erin]

True, Simkie... but it does seem to be generally accepted within the horse community that Strongid PASTE is effective against tapeworms at 2x to 3x the recommended routine dose. That's exactly what my vet recommended.

That's what has me kind of stumped... why ISN'T Strongid paste labelled for tapes when so many people recommend it for that use? That's why I was wondering if it was some weird FDA labelling thing. Like maybe Pfizer just hasn't bothered to go through the legal channels to change the label or something.

[Simkie]

I've heard the same thing, Erin, and have even used to double dose strongid paste in the spring and fall. Now that praziquantal has been approved, I'll just use one of those wormers. Instead of giving my horses something that may or may not have worked, I'll be giving them something that has been proven to work.

There could be any number of reasons strongid isn't labeled for tapes. Perhaps Pfizer just didn't want to pay for the testing.

The other possibility, though, is that strongid isn't particularly effective against tapeworms. Shiaway's experience would certainly support that.

Any vets want to chime in?

[Erin]

Okay, I've been Googling, and here's what I've found. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

This study (http://www.neosoft.com/~iaep/pages/protected/jissues/j1802/j1802p125.html) indicates that pyrantel tartrate (daily dewormer) is effective against tapes. It's from Journal of Equine Veterinary Science Volume 18, Number 2, February 1997.

From an article (http://www.ca.uky.edu/agc/pubs/vet/vet32/vet32.htm) on the UKy website, unfortunately not dated:

"Treatment for tapeworms is a dilemma at this time because no drugs are labeled for their removal. However, pyrantel pamoate, on the market for removal of nematodes, has activity on A. perfoliata. This drug is commonly used because of its activity against A. perfoliata. At the therapeutic dose rate (6.6 mg base/kg), it is somewhat less active than the double dose rate (13.2 mg base/kg). Even though a 20X margin of safety of the 6.6 mg base/kg dose rate has been established, safety of higher dose rates has not been defined in breeding animals. Therefore, use of higher than the therapeutic dose rate of pyrantel pamoate is not recommended, particularly in pregnant animals. Limited data indicate at least some activity of the low dose rate (2.64 mg/kg) of pyrantel tartrate on A. perfoliata."

From an AAEP article (http://www.xcodesign.com/aaep/displayArticles.cfm?ID=127), dated 6/2002:

"Although no drugs currently are approved for the treatment of equine tapeworms in the United States, several products have been shown to be effective. Treatment of choice for equine tapeworm infections is the use of pyrantel salts; label dosages are 87% effective while double the normal dosage is greater than 93% effective. Recently, daily administration of pyrantel tartrate was reported to effectively remove A. perfoliata. Praziquantel is 89%-100% effective in its removal."

[Simkie]

WOOT! Real data! Good job, Erin!

I'm glad to know I wasn't double dosing my horses for the last few years for nothing http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Tap2Tango]

I just posted a new topic on joint supps and daily wormers but then I came across this thread...So I'll post my questions here. I've never used a daily wormer but it was recommended by my trainer. She said it could help keep weight on my horse. Is this true? How often do you use a paste wormer??

~Steph

*Tapestry* 2000 Dutch WB mare by Contango

[Ghazzu]

Until recently, there was no product available with a label claim for A.perfoliata, the equine tapeworm.
Pyrantel pamoate (Strongid), at double the label dose for purge dewormiong for other GI parasites, was routinely used off-label for that purpose.

Recently, praziquantel/ivermectin combinations have been approved as equine dewormers, and they include a label claim for tapes.

FWIW, pyrantel tartrate and pyrantel pamoate are essentially equivalent--just two different salts of pyrantel.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

[Hexel]

I watch my horses. We used daily strongid C 2x for years and paste wormed every 2 mo. with appropriate products. When some of my horses started to get a wormy look despite a great program I investigated. For reasons unknown to me the daily wormer was not as effective anymore. So my feeling was why spend the money on it if it was not working for us in our local.

I'm sure this resistence can and will vary from farm to farm, horse to horse. I think it depends on an individual's set of circumstances, as to whether daily is a good choice or not.

I've made changes and fortunately for us the entire bunch is looking the way I want them to look. We may someday go back to daily if our current program appears to not be working.

I do not believe any of the new praz. wormers are labeled for use in pregnant mares yet.

[showrider]

According to the catalog I am looking at right now, it has listed the regular Strongid C, the 2X Strongid C, and the Continuex. I am getting all my supplements through SMART-PAk {WHO I LOVE!!!!!!!!!}. Erin is getting 2.5 oz {1000-1500LB}a day of the Continuex and Devon is getting the 2 oz{750-1000Lb}. It is per weight of the horse. Accord tot he catalog, the Strongid C is 4 oz a day for a 1000 lb horse.
According to the catalogs, the Strongid C lasts approx 100 days {now remember this is only 1.06%}. The same sixe of the continuex lasts 200 days {at 2.11%}.

Price wiseYes the Continues is more but you are getting double the days and double the strength.

I am quoting this directly out of the Dover catalog on page 107.

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[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by showrider:
Price wiseYes the Continues is more but you are getting double the days and double the strength.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I suspect that you are getting double the days because the stuff is twice the strength so you only use half the amount.

You need to see the entire label.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

[Erin]

Showrider, it's double the strength, but you feed half as much. The horse is getting the exact same amount of pyrantel tartrate no matter what daily dewormer you use.

Going by the Dover prices, Continuex is about 37 cents a day, CW is 42 cents per day, Strongid C and C2X are both about 50 cents per day. (Although the Continuex is the largest size, it's 200 days' worth, so that factors into why it's the cheapest... and that doesn't include shipping.)

[Bumpkin]

Erin look around, I bet there are places that will ship free.
Arcaro's has free shipping for their products, as does the Conquer Guy http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"Proud Member Of The I Love Dublin, Starman Babies, Mini Horse, Sunnieflax and Horse Boxes Cliques"
"Remember: You're A Customer In A Service Industry."

[Erin]

Bumpkin, I don't order from Dover unless absolutely necessary. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I was just using Dover's prices as a way to compare how expensive the various wormers are. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

FWIW, I pay about 37 cents per day when buying Equi-Aid CW in the 50 lb. tubs.

[Blinky]

So what does tube worming get rid of?

[Simkie]

Tube worming? Don't they just use the same drugs as the pastes do?

Nothing special, unless your horse is so bad about the tube that you can't get any of the wormer down his throat http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Montanas_Girl]

Nobody has mentioned the one BIG problem I see with daily dewormers versus paste deworming. My tainer once bought a beautiful Arab gelding (7 yrs. old) who had been on a daily wormer more or less all of his life. When he came to us, he was moved to a "regular" paste deworming schedule. The horse lost almost 200 pounds over the course of several months. We ran all kinds of blood tests, increased his feed, etc. with no success. A fecal test revealed that he had a minor (i.e. typical) population of worms, but nothing that should have been causing weight loss. The vets concluded that, because he had been on the daily for so long, he had never developed the "natural" immunity that most horses have to internal parasites. Thus, he was unable to stay healthy without the support of a daily wormer. This is something to consider if you are feeding a daily: if you have to sell your horse one day, do you want him to go through what this gelding did?

...food for thought...

"This time, like all times, is a very good one, if we but know what to do with it." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

[Flash44]

I would never sell my horse to someone who would let him lose 200 lbs.

[Lookout]

But you would deprive him of his own natural immunity by making him dependent on a chemical?

[Flash44]

I would wait until a clinical study was done before I came to the conclusion that daily wormers deprive a horse of his own natural immunity. I don't usually base my feeding and health care practices on unsubstantiated guesses.

And really, he's not been sick in 13 years. So I would imagine his natural immunity is just fine.

[Lookout]

The way that you used the clinical study that showed that daily wormers are effective? You would do something questionable until you had proof it was harmful?

[inspired]

I think Flash probably doesn't think it is a questionable practice. Personally, I've never heard of any mamal developing immunity to a parasite the way one might to a virus or bacteria. I would also question any vet that thought there was such thing as an acceptable worm count. What I HAVE heard of is parasites becoming immune to dewormers, which IS a legitimate risk we run with daily dewormers. My vet preferrs daily dewormer, anyway. When Farnam came out with their program, he happily referred those of us who had been buying Strongid from him to Continuex becuase he wasn't making any money off the sales.

[Flash44]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lookout:
The way that you used the clinical study that showed that daily wormers are effective? You would do something questionable until you had proof it was harmful?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right, I've never heard anything questionable about daily dewormers, and you have yet to offer anything to make me think there is a question about Strongid C. Your example of the Arab is scientifically unsound, there are many other variables involved such as the horse was sold, moved, under new managment, on a different diet, change in daily routine, change in exercise, etc. You did not prove a cause and effect relationship, it was just a guess.

[Flash44]

Strongid C has been around for what, 15+ years now? Where are all the reports of horses being harmed by it?

[Erin]

Actually, when I did the article on PreventiCare, I know someone mentioned the concern about horses not having natural "immunity." I don't know that immunity is necessarily the right word, but the concern was that a horse who had been on a daily dewormer since a very young age would not be able to handle a "normal" worm load.

It goes back to the difference between paste worming (purging) and the dailies. A horse that is on a good paste worming schedule DOES have worms. You're just purging them before they get to be much of an issue. So those horses' bodies are "used" to dealing with the low-grade worm infestation and the inflammation that goes along with it.

A 7-year-old horse who had never HAD that low grade worm infestation... his body wouldn't be used to it and might not handle it so well.

I have no idea if any of this has been studied, but Montanas Girl's experience at least lends some anecdotal evidence that it might be a legitimate issue in some instances.

With my guys, they didn't start on the stuff until they were about 8 and 23, respectively. I tend to keep horses til they fall over dead anyway, and have no plans to take them off... so I'm not too worried about it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Here's the actual pertinent text from the article... the vet quoted is Craig Reinemeyer, DVM, Ph.D., a veterinary parisitologist and president of East Tennessee Clinical Research.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Another concern is mostly theoretical at this point, according to Dr. Reinemeyer. "Any overly vigorous parasite program can result in a horse that’s never had to deal with worm antigens and has no natural resistance," he said. If a horse had been on a daily dewormer from a very young age and was sold or switched off at the age of three or four, "for the first time ever, his tissues are having to deal with parasites he normally would have dealt with as a six-month-old. There’s some degree of concern that overzealous use theoretically could deny the horse exposure and acquired immunity," he said.

No such problems have been documented at this point, but as a precaution, Dr. Reinemeyer doesn’t recommend using daily dewormers until a horse is two years old.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The article was written more than 3 years ago, though, so thoughts might have changed in the veterinary community since then.

[Jumpper/Hunter]

Erin, your inputs are so helpful. I look forward to reading them.. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[Leena]

I never use it; I have a 3 months program and it is doing fine.

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Simkie:
Tube worming? Don't they just use the same drugs as the pastes do?

Nothing special, unless your horse is so bad about the tube that you can't get any of the wormer down his throat http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Used to be the case that the only effective dewormers either tasted horrible or, in the case of carbon disulfide, formerly used for bots, were irritating to the esophagus. So they were doesd via nasogastric tube.

The newer dewormers aren't that foul tasting or corrosive. So they can be given as an oral medication.
No need to shove a hose up the beast's snout.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

[Flash44]

I'd rather have a horse on a daily dewormer that has no long term ill effects than a horse that periodically suffers from worms. A horse might lose weight when taken off a daily dewormer because all of a sudden, he is sharing his meals with a bunch of uninvited parasites which cause more damage than just increasing his need for nutrients. There is a reason they cover colic surgery when a horse is enrolled in the Strongid C program.

[Shiaway]

It isn't so much the horses being harmed by it (I nod and smile when people say they dont want to dump chemicles down their horse every day--but dumping more chemicles once every other month is better? and the use of the word chemicles is a bit misunderstood by most. really it is pesticide that i woulod worry about. not chemicles. our bodies are made of chemicles) it is more that now they are starting to see worms that are resistant to it and so it isn't working as effectivly anmore.

I think it is good if your horse is in a large, open herd strongid C daily is probably the way to go. But if you have your horses at home in a closed herd and you take good care of your pastures etc. It's just a waste of money.

[hoopoe]

Just came today in "The Horse" e-newsletter

http://www.getrotationright.com/index.asp


Charts on timing dewormers and rotation.

_\\]
-- * &gt; hoopoe
The ancient Greeks did not write obituaries. They only wanted to know if you had a passion.

[sid]

I started using Strongid C the first year it came out in the early 90's.

After 2 seasons I stopped. I did not like the look or condition of my youngsters at all, compared with those who were paste wormed. Probably because it's hard to keep up with the correct dose on a growing baby.

I, too, worried about resistance (primarly because of the uncertainty of weight dosing daily).

I've continued with Ivermectin as my "base" wormer, with 2 x Strongid after a killing frost. Clean fecals and robust horses.
I'm now also using Equimax yearly as well.

Susan Doner, Little Bull Run Farm. Standing Boleem, Argosy and King's Camelot. www.littlebullrun.com (http://www.littlebullrun.com)

[lmlacross]

Perfectly happy with my gelding on Strongid C2X daily feed-thru (which he started around age 9, now 12) and quarterly tubes of Quest. Do I feel like he needs a daily wormer? No- I could switch to an all-oral regimen and he'd be fine, too. But why switch what works? The free colic surgery coverage (Pfizer-Preventicare, Farnam Continucare) is a nice bonus, too.

LML

*MidWest/Chicago Clique*

[Jumpper/Hunter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Peggy:
The Farnam rep that I talked to said that you weren't covered for non-parasite colic. In other words, if your horse had enteroliths (sp?? - intestinal stones) they wouldn't be covered by the program.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Peggy,
Your statement got me thinking, I pulled out my contract and read it word by word. No where on it does it say that colic has to be caused by worms to be covered. Here's their number for those who would like to call 800-234-2269. I personally love the program, especially since I am not the one who maintains the facility where I board, so I don't have control on poop control.

Have a great day!