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dragonharte8
Jul. 3, 2011, 02:55 AM
July 20, 20007 "Who Should Qualify to be a Dressage Judge? by Lynndee Kemmet [Chronicle of the Horse]

"The judging conundrum: How do you encourage more objectivity and consistency in judging a subjective sport?"

This represents exactly what is wrong with the judging of the dressage tests at all levels. Let us examine the two key words used in the statement.

Subjectively
existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought pertaining to or characteristic of an individual; personal; individual: a subjective evaluation. placing excessive emphasis on one's own moods, attitudes, opinions, etc.; unduly egocentric.

How can dressage be subject when clearly defined descriptions are stipulated in the rules? As a material fact, judging dressage requires that the individual judges use objectivity in scoring.

Objectively
being the object or goal of one's efforts or actions.
not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion.
intent upon or dealing with things external to the mind rather than with thoughts or feelings,

And your thoughts are?

AlterBy
Jul. 3, 2011, 09:04 AM
Why do you care so much?
You don't even compete...

So...you want dressage to be totally objective? With no feeling, no expression, no individuality from both the horse and the rider... Yeah, dressage should be done by automaton.

So bad my horse won't read the rules...

Judging just CAN'T be totally objective because hey!, we're only humans after all!

Spirithorse, are you a robot?
I remember that you favorite picture of the perfect horse was one of a Breyers model...

InWhyCee Redux
Jul. 3, 2011, 09:40 AM
You want objective? Try show jumping.

Equibrit
Jul. 3, 2011, 11:13 AM
What a very silly topic. Any human judgement is subjective even when idiots are involved.

dragonharte8
Jul. 3, 2011, 11:26 AM
A silly subject, is a good example of the complacency that is destroying the sport of dressage.

Every rider of dressage should care about the judging whether they compete or not, because the judging is what is causing the negative changes in the sport of dressage.

I would compete and I have a couple of clients that would compete, however, the competition dressage arena is not a fair and balanced venue simply because of 'those' judges who cannot score according to the prerequistes clearly stipulated in FEI Articles 401 through 417. Judges who score subjectively rather than objectively.

angel
Jul. 3, 2011, 11:39 AM
Dressage judging will never be completely objective because a judge intreprets the rules based on his or her knowledge of the training. With some of the equestrian sports, like show jumping as someone else mentioned, there is no question as to the time it took to ride the course and the count of how many rails went down. With racing, there is no question as to which horse went over the finish line first. But, dressage has no objective measures on which a specific value can be placed, such as time or rails, so can never be judged objectively.

Equibrit
Jul. 3, 2011, 11:55 AM
A silly subject, is a good example of the complacency that is destroying the sport of dressage.

Every rider of dressage should care about the judging whether they compete or not, because the judging is what is causing the negative changes in the sport of dressage.

I would compete and I have a couple of clients that would compete, however, the competition dressage arena is not a fair and balanced venue simply because of 'those' judges who cannot score according to the prerequistes clearly stipulated in FEI Articles 401 through 417. Judges who score subjectively rather than objectively.


I rest my case.
Amazed that you have "clients".

Lost_at_C
Jul. 3, 2011, 11:55 AM
Spirithorse, you're missing the point. No one has said that judging should not adhere to specific criteria and or that it is ok to be biased in the awarding of marks.

There are two different applications of the terms objective/subjective here, and you've muddled them together.

Usage 1:
Dressage judging should be OBJECTIVE - meaning, judges should not let personal bias or preference affect the marks they award. That would entail subjectivity that defies the competition standards. Yes, we occasionally see this kind of negative subjectivity when well-known riders compete, but it is certainly not the pervasive problem at all levels that you imply. You are trying to suggest that judges simply ignore the rules when it suits them... you might learn differently if you competed yourself, or even volunteered with your local GMO.

Usage 2:
Dressage is a SUBJECTIVE sport becuase it is judged rather than assessed by uniformly measured criteria that never varies (as in the example of showjumping, how many poles stay up in what length of time). To be considered an Objective sport, the activity has to be measurable by some sort of mechanical means. The only way to make dressage an objective sport would be to perhaps attach sensors to each horse to measure movement and base scores off some kind of pre-set standards.


These are the two usages that were in operation in the sentence you originally quoted. Nothing in that quote counters your own point of view - you are just trying to stir up a controversy where one does not really exist.

Velvet
Jul. 3, 2011, 11:58 AM
The biggest problem is with the governing bodies not addressing changes that creep in at the top and trickle down. Things that no longer fit the written rules/descriptions of the movements.

The rest, usually at the lower levels, is sourgrapes by those who feel that they are a special case.

alicen
Jul. 3, 2011, 04:29 PM
I would compete and I have a couple of clients that would compete, however...

Oh, come on. Get out there and show everyone how it's supposed to be done. Set an example.

The Hobbit
Jul. 3, 2011, 04:42 PM
Spirithorse, you're missing the point. No one has said that judging should not adhere to specific criteria and or that it is ok to be biased in the awarding of marks.

There are two different applications of the terms objective/subjective here, and you've muddled them together.

Usage 1:
Dressage judging should be OBJECTIVE - meaning, judges should not let personal bias or preference affect the marks they award. That would entail subjectivity that defies the competition standards. Yes, we occasionally see this kind of negative subjectivity when well-known riders compete, but it is certainly not the pervasive problem at all levels that you imply. You are trying to suggest that judges simply ignore the rules when it suits them... you might learn differently if you competed yourself, or even volunteered with your local GMO.

Usage 2:
Dressage is a SUBJECTIVE sport becuase it is judged rather than assessed by uniformly measured criteria that never varies (as in the example of showjumping, how many poles stay up in what length of time). To be considered an Objective sport, the activity has to be measurable by some sort of mechanical means. The only way to make dressage an objective sport would be to perhaps attach sensors to each horse to measure movement and base scores off some kind of pre-set standards.


These are the two usages that were in operation in the sentence you originally quoted. Nothing in that quote counters your own point of view - you are just trying to stir up a controversy where one does not really exist.

Well stated. As an English major, I could feel my blood pressure on the rise with the initial, somewhat misapplied, definitions of objective/subjective.:winkgrin:

dragonharte8
Jul. 3, 2011, 05:22 PM
Here are a few clearly stipulated points not subject to personal subjective opinon. Criteria is mandated!

'on the bit' frame stipulated throughout FEI Articles 401 through 417 is not subject to personal opinion...it is a mandated position of the head and neck.

Trot is a two beat gait...........Totilas presented a four beat trot..........

Canter pirouette is no longer a canter throughout the movement.....the tempo does not remain the same

Snaffle bit shall be the primary bit of contact, now the curb is the primary bit of contact

Equibrit
Jul. 3, 2011, 05:50 PM
Here are a few clearly stipulated points not subject to personal subjective opinon. Criteria is mandated!

'on the bit' frame stipulated throughout FEI Articles 401 through 417 is not subject to personal opinion...it is a mandated position of the head and neck.

Trot is a two beat gait...........Totilas presented a four beat trot..........

Canter pirouette is no longer a canter throughout the movement.....the tempo does not remain the same

Snaffle bit shall be the primary bit of contact, now the curb is the primary bit of contact

That is a subjective opinion. However misguided it may be.
(not allowed to post my objective opinion of it's value)

dragonharte8
Jul. 3, 2011, 06:58 PM
Equibrit,
You are subjective:lol: and thats ok with me.
You apparently are among those who do not believe in right or wrong, correct or incorrect and this is ok with me too.:yes:

amm2cd
Jul. 3, 2011, 07:37 PM
The only way to be completly OBJECTIVE in Dressage is to remove the human element. We could film all of our tests and have it judged by an elaborate computer program which can detect all gait irregularities, loss of contact, BTV, etc...
A conputer is the only one who will not be swayed by impressive gaits, or feel the pressure of judging WEG or the Olympics, or blink and miss a bad step.


Sounds stupid, when you put it like that, doesnt it?


I've never noticed that judges score far from the directives. Then again, I'm not competing on the international scene.... Maybe that's what troubles Spirit horse?

Tamara in TN
Jul. 3, 2011, 07:51 PM
You want objective? Try show jumping.

or barrel racing...you at least stay closer to the ground ;)

Tamara

Stellar_moves
Jul. 3, 2011, 08:36 PM
I don't do dressage, but here's my opinion:

I believe a judge should a follow a set of "standards". For example, the horse should get proper leads, nice spots (talking about jumping), nice form, etc. The basics of jumping. Then, they should be able to add their opinion into it as well. For example, does the judge like big movers or maybe a quicker mover? Big horses or smaller horses? Whatever their personal preference is. Like one of the posters before have stated, we're only human. I know if I was judging and two horses had the exact same round, I'd place the one with a better, longer movement rather than a shorter quicker one. Just because that is my personal preference.

I can understand maybe getting angry if something is COMPLETELY ridiculous, but otherwise, don't worry about it. You are paying for their (in the AQHA world) $22 opinion. No biggie :)

Velvet
Jul. 3, 2011, 10:26 PM
Why are we feeding trolls out here? Why did SH change alters? On too many ignore lists? :lol:

Petstorejunkie
Jul. 3, 2011, 10:31 PM
I would compete and I have a couple of clients that would compete, however, the competition dressage arena is not a fair and balanced venue simply because of 'those' judges who cannot score according to the prerequistes clearly stipulated in FEI Articles 401 through 417. Judges who score subjectively rather than objectively.
Newsflash, ya learn who they are and you don't waste your entry fee riding in front of them. To say all judges are rewarding the wrong executions of the movements is completely warped.
Believe me, there are LOTS of great judges out there rewarding classically correct rides.

dragonharte8
Jul. 3, 2011, 11:06 PM
Newsflash, ya learn who they are and you don't waste your entry fee riding in front of them. To say all judges are rewarding the wrong executions of the movements is completely warped.
Believe me, there are LOTS of great judges out there rewarding classically correct rides.

If what you say about the good judges [and I agree there are alot of good judges] is true, then what would be the explanation of the bad judging that is occuring at national and international level wherein the 'on the bit' frame requirement is ignored?

DutchDressageQueen
Jul. 3, 2011, 11:16 PM
"The judging, why is it subjective"

I stopped asking myself that a long time ago. People (the judges) are going to be subjective. they are humans.

dragonharte8
Jul. 4, 2011, 12:35 AM
Eurodressage
12/23/10
Col Christian Carde, Classical Dressage as Horsemanship Part III

“The most serious problem dressage has is that the judging isn’t done strictly according to the FEI rules anymore. For me the judging has come to the end of the road by leaving the official scale and it will be interesting for young people like you to see how this will evolve in the future. For example there is the general tendency to place horses with exceptional paces higher than less spectacular but better ridden ones. This puts dressage in general in danger, not only at the highest levels. There is a gap between what is actually happening in dressage and the FEI rules and this is the point that should be discussed. The future of dressage strongly depends upon how riders are judged as well as on how the eye of spectators is formed by what is presented wrongly but scoring highly.”

AllWeatherGal
Jul. 4, 2011, 09:01 AM
Eurodressage
12/23/10
Col Christian Carde, Classical Dressage as Horsemanship Part III

“The most serious problem dressage has is that the judging isn’t done strictly according to the FEI rules anymore. For me the judging ...<snip>... For example <snip the rest >

The most important part of that quote, the ONLY *objective* statement, is bold underlined and italicized.

Every sentence should (in my opinion) start with "For me", "In my opinion", "As I see it" or something similar.

And then it becomes clear that what the OP writes, what Carde (or anyone who puts fingers to keyboard, pen to paper) writes, just as what judges score, is ALL a matter of opinion.

Some opinions are just more educated than others.

DutchDressageQueen
Jul. 4, 2011, 09:16 AM
just as what judges score, is ALL a matter of opinion.

Some opinions are just more educated than others.

this.

siegi b.
Jul. 4, 2011, 11:20 AM
I was just going to write that Carde's opinion is just that - another opinion - but then allweathergirl said it all much better! :yes: Thank you!

CFFarm
Jul. 4, 2011, 11:23 AM
The most important part of that quote, the ONLY *objective* statement, is bold underlined and italicized.

Every sentence should (in my opinion) start with "For me", "In my opinion", "As I see it" or something similar.

And then it becomes clear that what the OP writes, what Carde (or anyone who puts fingers to keyboard, pen to paper) writes, just as what judges score, is ALL a matter of opinion.

Some opinions are just more educated than others.

Yes, bingo! Just about everything about horses is simply someone's opinion. From ODG's techniques, how to train or re-train horses, rider position, even the best medical treatments. That's why there's so much action on these type of bbs and why all those TV trainers are making the $$. Humans opine on everything from the scriptures to FEI guidelines. Always have, always will. Of course this is JMHO.

mickeydoodle
Jul. 4, 2011, 02:58 PM
And "on the bit" is shown how on your website dragonheart? Just where does the upsidedown neck, dropped back and loose reins fit into the FEI guidelines? Please illustrate your interpretation of "on the bit".

dragonharte8
Jul. 4, 2011, 03:22 PM
You all missed the mark.
He specifically delineates the seperation of current judging from what is called for in the rules.
Whether you like it or not.......rules are rules and are to be enforced.....so if you do not like having rules for dressage then do not compete.


Mickeydoodle,
already have stipulated images of Podhajsky and Oliveria on my website in the article about the 'on the bit' frame.
And it is not my interpretation, it is the description contained within the rules, it is what is mandated by the rules.

alibi_18
Jul. 4, 2011, 03:46 PM
Whether you like it or not.......rules are rules and are to be enforced.....so if you do not like having rules for dressage then do not compete.

Is that why you (and your clients...) don't compete?

or is it because you think that all the judges are unfair to your personal subjectiveness of what dressage should be?

DutchDressageQueen
Jul. 4, 2011, 03:56 PM
What would you score this ride?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TgTjyeNcRs

The test was given a 59% but honestly, I do not believe it was that bad. I think it was worth in the mid 60's. Please see for yourself, and post what you think that ride is worth.

dragonharte8
Jul. 4, 2011, 04:26 PM
In my humble opinion, your test deserved in the mid 60's.

Straightness counts and you do a beautiful ride with that.

Something I noticed that really counts for me, is that there is an almost consistent motion of the horse's head and neck....there is visible suppleness.

The trot work demonstrated selfcarriage and suppleness and rhythm......as did the canter.

Something else I noticed is that you appear to release [give forward] quite a bit because the horse's head shows some form of release. You are to be commended for that.

alibi_18
Jul. 4, 2011, 04:31 PM
What would you score this ride?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TgTjyeNcRs

The test was given a 59% but honestly, I do not believe it was that bad. I think it was worth in the mid 60's. Please see for yourself, and post what you think that ride is worth.

I'm not a judge and you have a super talented horse but at that level, you should have more definite transitions.


To confirm that the horse, having begun to develop an uphill balance at Second Level, now demonstrates increased engagement, especially in the extended gaits. Transitions between collected, medium and extended gaits should be well defined and performed with engagement. The horse should be reliably on the bit and show a greater degree of straightness, bending, suppleness, throughness, balance and self-carriage than at Second Level.

Your horse should demonstrate more energy and hind legs action. He has upper level gaits for sure, but he isn't working its butt at all. This is easy for him, you should ask more and don't be ok with average work.

From what I could see of your video, your medium trot was very conservative. Barely in tracking. And your horse was uneven in his steps (probably wanting to extend and your half halt made him think twice!)

Not much of extended trot either. Very conservative.

There was no medium walk nor extended. It looked collected to me all the way.

You were again really conservative in your medium canter.

You haven't let go the rein enough on the canter circle.

Some head tilting here and there but..that's life!

Your collected trot is a bit 'passagee'.

And there was a mistake in the canter walk transition.

The bending in the half pass wasn't that bad. I would ask for a bit more.
The bending in the shoulder in wasn't enough.

That said, your horse is really REALLY nice, have good gaits, looks to have a great mind, is steady and will perform at high level. This is easy stuff for him!

I'm doing Third too this year! :D

I'm actually curious of the judge's comment on your ride! If you'd like to PM results! I could share mine too!

DutchDressageQueen
Jul. 4, 2011, 04:35 PM
I'm not a judge and you have a super talented horse but at that level, you should have more definite transitions.



Your horse should demonstrate more energy and hind legs action. He has upper level gaits for sure, but he isn't working its butt at all. This is easy for him, you should ask more and don't be ok with average work.

From what I could see of your video, your medium trot was very conservative. Barely in tracking. And your horse was uneven in his steps (probably wanting to extend and your half halt made him think twice!)

Not much of extended trot either. Very conservative.

There was no medium walk nor extended. It looked collected to me all the way.

You were again really conservative in your medium canter.

You haven't let go the rein enough on the canter circle.

Some head tilting here and there but..that's life!

Your collected trot is a bit 'passagee'.

And there was a mistake in the canter walk transition.

The bending in the half pass wasn't that bad. I would ask for a bit more.
The bending in the shoulder in wasn't enough.

That said, your horse is really REALLY nice, have good gaits, looks to have a great mind, is steady and will perform at high level. This is easy stuff for him!

I'm doing Third too this year! :D

Thanks, I agree with all that you said. and yes for him third level is a walk in the park ( and that was my first show on him after only riding him for 2 months) He is actually schooling all GP movements with my trainer. I am just not ready enough to show him higher, but I will start doing PSG after the usdf region 3 regionals this october. as you can see on some of the other videos, he can do better, much better.

DutchDressageQueen
Jul. 4, 2011, 04:54 PM
compare the video of the show to this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6wA5hb_2NI&feature=related ( that was 22 days before the show) you will see the difference in how we improved.
I think it is pretty good for me since I have really trained dressage for about 1.5 yrs ( not counting first/second level riding welsh pony when I was 6-7 :P but that cannot be compared to hard training.riding several horses a day 5 days a week)

Lost_at_C
Jul. 4, 2011, 05:16 PM
Ditto what Alibi said, particularly about the lack of forward. I think 59% was a very fair score, and commendable for your first test with a new horse - well done.

DDQ, you might want to post under a new topic in future if you want more feedback. A good many COTHers have Spirithorse/Dragonheart8 on "Ignore" - his qualifications are... uh... interesting. I'm not sure how many will have seen your post on this thread. Best of luck to you, he does look talented and fun!

DutchDressageQueen
Jul. 4, 2011, 05:38 PM
Ditto what Alibi said, particularly about the lack of forward. I think 59% was a very fair score, and commendable for your first test with a new horse - well done.

DDQ, you might want to post under a new topic in future if you want more feedback. A good many COTHers have Spirithorse/Dragonheart8 on "Ignore" - his qualifications are... uh... interesting. I'm not sure how many will have seen your post on this thread. Best of luck to you, he does look talented and fun!

oh, ok. thanks for telling me!

Delbert Paesano
Jul. 4, 2011, 10:30 PM
In which video can you see Totalis having a 4 beat trot? I have never noticed that before.

AlterBy
Jul. 4, 2011, 10:35 PM
In which video can you see Totalis having a 4 beat trot? I have never noticed that before.

Please don't start SpiritHorse aka Dragonharte8 on that...Please...

horsefaerie
Jul. 4, 2011, 11:15 PM
I hope it isn't all that subjective and human.

Some judges are breeding WBs. I hope they forget that when judging.

Velvet
Jul. 4, 2011, 11:27 PM
Lots of trolling going on with this topic. Please don't feed the trolls. :yes:

amm2cd
Jul. 4, 2011, 11:44 PM
In my humble opinion, your test deserved in the mid 60's.

Straightness counts and you do a beautiful ride with that.

Something I noticed that really counts for me, is that there is an almost consistent motion of the horse's head and neck....there is visible suppleness.

The trot work demonstrated selfcarriage and suppleness and rhythm......as did the canter.

Something else I noticed is that you appear to release [give forward] quite a bit because the horse's head shows some form of release. You are to be commended for that.


I think that a 59% is a decent score for this test. The rider is the weaker of the two (but improving, as we all are), and doesn't have him sitting as much as a 65% horse should. This is third level, after all.
Also, this trot is not a powerful upper level trot. It's passage-y, as noted above. every trot movement is going to be dinged because the horse is not moving under himself as a third level horse should.
There are great movements, and with more experience with this horse, you'll earn the higher scores. A nice horse (and he is stunning) will get you close, the rider has to seal the deal. Keep up the good work.

horsefaerie
Jul. 5, 2011, 02:44 PM
Velvet,

I hope you are not suggesting I am a troll.

It is a valid point. Conflict of interest?

In the real world a judge who had a business that could benefit from a decision he could make should recuse himself from a case. However, if they do not, it pretty much sets the case up for appeal. Big waste of money.

Now if you argue Dressage is just not that important then perhaps it is a moot point. But when there is a lot of money to be made, perhaps not.

Velvet
Jul. 5, 2011, 03:12 PM
Velvet,

I hope you are not suggesting I am a troll.

It is a valid point. Conflict of interest?

In the real world a judge who had a business that could benefit from a decision he could make should recuse himself from a case. However, if they do not, it pretty much sets the case up for appeal. Big waste of money.

Now if you argue Dressage is just not that important then perhaps it is a moot point. But when there is a lot of money to be made, perhaps not.

Dragonheart is the troll.

ThreeFigs
Jul. 6, 2011, 12:58 AM
Dragonharte8 aka Spirithorse cannot recognize his OWN subjectivity.

Yes indeed, why the new moniker? Same product, different packaging. It's not even "new and improved"!

mickeydoodle
Jul. 6, 2011, 01:04 PM
What would you score this ride?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TgTjyeNcRs

The test was given a 59% but honestly, I do not believe it was that bad. I think it was worth in the mid 60's. Please see for yourself, and post what you think that ride is worth.

He is a lovely and talented horse, and you are a very good rider- but
Now mind you, I am not saying I could go out and score over 60% tomorrow myself- but

I think the score was accurate- as the others have said, the trot is not collected, it is "passagy" with too slow a tempo, too much "hovering" over the ground rather than the hind legs pumping to the bit and elevating the front end. There was very little difference in the medium/ extended trots, very little lengthening of the frame, and little transition (kind of petered out at the end of both). Lack of bend in the lateral work at the trot. (a product of the lack of engagement and hovering) The walk got "goose-stepping" at times, too slow a tempo with the forelegs hovering. The first walk pirouette stuck, the second stepped out. Canter also a little too slow tempo, and very little change in the medium/extended gaits. Better bend in the lateral work, because of better impulsion in the canter. Lovely straight changes.

The test in March where you got a 68% was much better- the horse marched forward with impulsion and engagement at all gaits (occasional goose stepping in walk) and the test really was 8-9% better quality.

Ride like the March test and you will be regional champ.:)

ToN Farm
Jul. 6, 2011, 01:27 PM
What would you score this ride?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TgTjyeNcRs

The test was given a 59% but honestly, I do not believe it was that bad. I think it was worth in the mid 60's. Please see for yourself, and post what you think that ride is worth. I think you were cheated BIG TIME. And no, I am not one of those people that are wowed by a fancy <correct or not> trot.

I would be interested in seeing the individual marks and which movements brought the score down. Sure, there were some things not perfect (as MickeyDoodle wrote), but that is why we don't get 10's. Believe me, I've seen enough 3rd and 4th level rides to get a feel on how they would/should score, and I can't imagine how this ride was penalized so severely.

A couple questions. How did you get away with riding without a helmet at a 2011 show? Was it a schooling show.

Now...about the judge. I can't give details as they are too personal to the rider and horse, but several years ago this judge gave a pair a 59% at either PSG/I1 and this pair had never before scored less than very high 60's. In fact, was in the top 10 HOY at that level. Rider felt royally screwed by this judge.

I don't show much anymore, a couple times a year, and it is because the judging is just crazy and too subjective. I think maybe it is ok at the international level, but not at the local or even regional level.

DutchDressageQueen
Jul. 6, 2011, 04:49 PM
I think you were cheated BIG TIME. And no, I am not one of those people that are wowed by a fancy <correct or not> trot.

I would be interested in seeing the individual marks and which movements brought the score down. Sure, there were some things not perfect (as MickeyDoodle wrote), but that is why we don't get 10's. Believe me, I've seen enough 3rd and 4th level rides to get a feel on how they would/should score, and I can't imagine how this ride was penalized so severely.

A couple questions. How did you get away with riding without a helmet at a 2011 show? Was it a schooling show.

Now...about the judge. I can't give details as they are too personal to the rider and horse, but several years ago this judge gave a pair a 59% at either PSG/I1 and this pair had never before scored less than very high 60's. In fact, was in the top 10 HOY at that level. [B]Rider felt royally screwed by this judge.

I don't show much anymore, a couple times a year, and it is because the judging is just crazy and too subjective. I think maybe it is ok at the international level, but not at the local or even regional level.

the show was before the helmet rule went into effect. it was the Ocala Winter Dressage show ( in January) at the FL Horsepark.
here are the individual marks for each movement:

1.enter trot, halt salute-6 not straight
2.track right at c, mxk medium trot, kf collected trot-6 lost rhythm
3.fb shoulder in-6 too much L ( not sure what the L stands for)
4.bg halfpass left, g straight ahead, c track left-5 no bend
5. hxf extended trot fk collected trot- 6 more lengthening frame
6. transitions at h and f- 6 not straight at f
7.ke shoulder in right- 6 changing L
8.eg half pass g straight- 5 no bend
9. c track right before m medium walk- 6 tight in neck
10.m turn right b/w g-h half turn on haunches right- 6 against hand
11. half turn on haunches left- 6 large
12.medium walk (quality and regularity)-6 tense
13.s-p extended walk, p-f medium walk- 6 could stretch down more
14.f collected canter- 6 tense
15.a down center line d-r halfpass- 6 more bend
16.b/w r-m flying change-7
17.h-k med canter k-a collected canter- 6 needs to cover more ground
18.a down center line, d-s halfpass- 6 more bend
19.b/w s-h flying change- 6 croup high
20.circle showing release of reins- 6 unsteady
21.m-f extended canter, f-k collected canter- 7
22.transitions at m and f- 7
23.k-b change of rein flying change near L-7
24.b-h change rein flying change near I-7
25.c collected trot- 4 resisting
26. r turn right, i turn right, g halt salute- 6 not straight after I, not square
gaits-6
impulsion-6
submission-6 with acceptance of bridle and straightness underlined
rider's position + seat-6, reaching for stirrups
rider's aids-5 causing tension
harmony-5 No bending in half passes ( you tell me, what does the bend in a half pass have to do with the overall Harmony??)
further remarks-rhythm not always clear. could be more supple laterally and in self carriage.

LarkspurCO
Jul. 6, 2011, 05:39 PM
Nice horse. Good job on the test, and I think the scores were fine.

10.m turn right b/w g-h half turn on haunches right- 6 against hand

Generous score because the steps were incorrect. He got stuck on his right hind and pivoted.

11. half turn on haunches left- 6 large

Generous here, too. He stepped way out in the beginning with the right hind, then he got stuck on the left hind.

I would have expected to earn no more than a 5 on these.

mjhco
Jul. 6, 2011, 05:46 PM
The judge needed to score YOU down for no bend in the half passes. Take your pick which one.

I am surprised you received a six for the opening halt and moveoff since your horse stepped back. Judge at C probably did not see the degree of step back.

On movements 3 and 7 I perceive L is not an L but an angle.


Nice horse.

AlterBy
Jul. 6, 2011, 06:29 PM
harmony-5 No bending in half passes ( you tell me, what does the bend in a half pass have to do with the overall Harmony??)
further remarks-rhythm not always clear. could be more supple laterally and in self carriage.

Maybe the 'no bending' was meant to be in the Rider aid's box. and the 'rhythm not always clear' in the Harmony box.
Yes, sometimes scripts to make little mistakes that are usually corrected by the judge but this one might have slip...


( not sure what the L stands for)

I believe it is not an 'L'. It is an 'angle'. Would make sense.
The first Shoulder-in is more like a leg yield at some point.
We don't really see the second Shoulder-in but at the beginning you started with a big angle, then almost straight, then...the ground!!! LoL.

You got lots 6's, meaning your test was mostly 'satisfactory'.
You got some 'good' 7's and a few 'sufficient' 5's.

And as we can see in the video, most of your transitions from extended to collected gaits were not that good, and they are 2x, so you've lost lots of points there and with the half pass too. And you got a 4 in the canter transition. So the 59% means that your test was ok but you didn't clearly demonstrate the test's requirements.

Also, may I had that if I were you, I would try to shorten my stirrups of one hole. You shouldn't be reaching for your stirrups at that level and you are a good rider. Your stirrups are just a bit too long. IMO of course.

Kaluna
Jul. 6, 2011, 11:13 PM
You all missed the mark.
He specifically delineates the seperation of current judging from what is called for in the rules.
Whether you like it or not.......rules are rules and are to be enforced.....so if you do not like having rules for dressage then do not compete.


Mickeydoodle,
already have stipulated images of Podhajsky and Oliveria on my website in the article about the 'on the bit' frame.
And it is not my interpretation, it is the description contained within the rules, it is what is mandated by the rules.

You don't like the rules being enforced and so you say you and your clients don't compete, right? I guess you don't like how trained judges score you and your students? So what's the point of this thread? Learn to ride more effectively and you'll score better.

I'm not convinced Podhajsky or Oliveria would score you highly, either.

mickeydoodle
Jul. 6, 2011, 11:31 PM
You don't like the rules being enforced and so you say you and your clients don't compete, right? I guess you don't like how trained judges score you and your students? So what's the point of this thread? Learn to ride more effectively and you'll score better.

I'm not convinced Podhajsky or Oliveria would score you highly, either.

i agree, based on the pics of his own riding, P and O would not score spirithorse/dragonhart highly, nor think his ideas were anything short of ..................................? the pics of him riding are no where close to the pics of any "on the bit" horse and rider

mickeydoodle
Jul. 6, 2011, 11:32 PM
the show was before the helmet rule went into effect. it was the Ocala Winter Dressage show ( in January) at the FL Horsepark.
here are the individual marks for each movement:

1.enter trot, halt salute-6 not straight
2.track right at c, mxk medium trot, kf collected trot-6 lost rhythm
3.fb shoulder in-6 too much L ( not sure what the L stands for)
4.bg halfpass left, g straight ahead, c track left-5 no bend
5. hxf extended trot fk collected trot- 6 more lengthening frame
6. transitions at h and f- 6 not straight at f
7.ke shoulder in right- 6 changing L
8.eg half pass g straight- 5 no bend
9. c track right before m medium walk- 6 tight in neck
10.m turn right b/w g-h half turn on haunches right- 6 against hand
11. half turn on haunches left- 6 large
12.medium walk (quality and regularity)-6 tense
13.s-p extended walk, p-f medium walk- 6 could stretch down more
14.f collected canter- 6 tense
15.a down center line d-r halfpass- 6 more bend
16.b/w r-m flying change-7
17.h-k med canter k-a collected canter- 6 needs to cover more ground
18.a down center line, d-s halfpass- 6 more bend
19.b/w s-h flying change- 6 croup high
20.circle showing release of reins- 6 unsteady
21.m-f extended canter, f-k collected canter- 7
22.transitions at m and f- 7
23.k-b change of rein flying change near L-7
24.b-h change rein flying change near I-7
25.c collected trot- 4 resisting
26. r turn right, i turn right, g halt salute- 6 not straight after I, not square
gaits-6
impulsion-6
submission-6 with acceptance of bridle and straightness underlined
rider's position + seat-6, reaching for stirrups
rider's aids-5 causing tension
harmony-5 No bending in half passes ( you tell me, what does the bend in a half pass have to do with the overall Harmony??)
further remarks-rhythm not always clear. could be more supple laterally and in self carriage.

what I would expect, "L" is not the letter, it means angle-watch the March test and this test, big difference in forward, bend, collection, transitions into lengthened gaits (although still could have more at medium and extended gaits)

mickeydoodle
Jul. 6, 2011, 11:58 PM
thw rhythm not always clear and "could be in more self carriage) is a way of indicating the passagy trot and goose-stepping walk (speaking as a thousand + hour scribe for CDI's and upper level dressage)

ToN Farm
Jul. 7, 2011, 12:04 AM
Some of the lower marks were warranted, but when there was a question between which way to go, this judge went to the low side.

The biggest error in judgment was in the scoring of the 3 marks for rider: 6-5-5. That averages out to a 5.3 if there had been only one score for rider, as used to be the case. In no way was this rider a 5 'marginal' rider in this test.

Nitpicking on the stirrup length was just that; nitpicking.

LarkspurCO
Jul. 7, 2011, 02:09 AM
Some of the lower marks were warranted, but when there was a question between which way to go, this judge went to the low side.

Why would you assume there was a question between which way to go? When obvious mistakes are made, or the execution is very marginal (e.g., mediums and extensions) a 6 is pretty generous, in my experience.


The biggest error in judgment was in the scoring of the 3 marks for rider: 6-5-5. That averages out to a 5.3 if there had been only one score for rider, as used to be the case. In no way was this rider a 5 'marginal' rider in this test. Nitpicking on the stirrup length was just that; nitpicking.

Or maybe it was the judge's honest opinion after assessing the horse and rider in person?

Regarding reaching for the stirrups, that was an accurate observation. What was the judge supposed to do, ignore it? I thought it was the judge's job to "nit pick.":confused: That's why they make the big bucks.:lol:

ideayoda
Jul. 7, 2011, 03:02 AM
L was probably a V on its side or 'angle'

DutchDressageQueen
Jul. 7, 2011, 08:54 AM
Also, may I had that if I were you, I would try to shorten my stirrups of one hole. You shouldn't be reaching for your stirrups at that level and you are a good rider. Your stirrups are just a bit too long. IMO of course.

yes, I did shorten my stirrups :)

Velvet
Jul. 7, 2011, 01:00 PM
I think Spirithorse has been reading this list lately--and come up with new things to add to it. :lol:

http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html

dragonharte8
Jul. 9, 2011, 12:37 AM
If the point of the thread is to ride correctly, then get the horses' heads where they belong, get off the dependence upon the curb bits, and ride easier on the snaffles, and oh by the way stop bouncing into the back of the horses.

amm2cd
Jul. 9, 2011, 01:02 AM
If the point of the thread is to ride correctly, then get the horses' heads where they belong, get off the dependence upon the curb bits, and ride easier on the snaffles, and oh by the way stop bouncing into the back of the horses.

Get your horse over the back, through with his hind legs and straight, then your 'headset' will come. Just because your poll is the highest point does not mean that the rest is correct....

And judges will score you down if any of the above is not there.
Not through the back? 5 or less
Not carrying behind? 5 or less
Not over the topline or BTV? 5 or less.
Incorrect sequence of footfalls? 5, if you're lucky. 4 or less, usually.

The list goes on... but I find it's usually pretty consistant throughout. There are a few lenient judges who want to encourage the struggling Ammies (which always makes me happy and those judges popular), but very rarely do I watch a test, then am shocked at the score (i.e. a 70% ride will not score a 50%, and a 50% ride will not score a 70%... I assume a 3% leeway is appropriate for the human factor).

The only way to have a completely objective horse sport is to race the clock. On the plus side, I hear barrel racing is fun.

cnm161
Jul. 9, 2011, 01:10 AM
The only way to have a completely objective horse sport is to race the clock. On the plus side, I hear barrel racing is fun.

Rumor has it, jumping's fun too.

If you focus only on the head, you're doing it wrong. If you focus only on the neck, you're doing it wrong. If you focus only on the right front whatever, you're doing it wrong. Dressage is about the whole horse-- back to front, side to side.

So. The judges have a scale that goes from 0-10, and are presented with infinite variations on the movements. A 4 is a 4 is a 4, but there are many different ways to earn that. So you can have a poll-high 4, a BTV 4, and a "false frame" 4. Just saying.

dragonharte8
Jul. 9, 2011, 01:31 AM
Get your horse over the back, through with his hind legs and straight, then your 'headset' will come. Just because your poll is the highest point does not mean that the rest is correct....

True, however, the CORRECT 'on the bit' frame is required in all the movements all the time and at all levels.
So riders get the poll up and the head in front of the vertical...and that means that the underside of the lower end of the jaws must be in front of the vertical.
This position will dramatically improve your horse's ability to perform correctly.

amm2cd
Jul. 9, 2011, 01:50 AM
True, however, the CORRECT 'on the bit' frame is required in all the movements all the time and at all levels.
So riders get the poll up and the head in front of the vertical...and that means that the underside of the lower end of the jaws must be in front of the vertical.
This position will dramatically improve your horse's ability to perform correctly.

However, if you soley focus on having the up and open angle in front, and just expect everything to magically fall in to place... That's not how it works. Head, neck, shoulders, back and hind end ALL need to be used 'correctly'. Focusing only on the headset will get you to WPland.... Not pretty and definitely not where I want this sport to go.

And we could insert correct usage of any part of the body into your statement and have it make as much sense. In short, if you train your horse to use its self correctly, everything will be easier and more correct. The more correctly you ride, the higher your score will be.

Again, not subjective judging.

dragonharte8
Jul. 9, 2011, 02:10 AM
However, if you soley focus on having the up and open angle in front, and just expect everything to magically fall in to place... That's not how it works. Head, neck, shoulders, back and hind end ALL need to be used 'correctly'.

Ah, did not say that the 'on the bit' frame should be the sole focus. In fact, said that this position would enhance the performance of the horse. Now that does not mean the horse will do it on its own without the correct aids from the rider.
So, all schooling of the entire horse's body should be done correctly.

ThreeFigs
Jul. 10, 2011, 11:31 PM
Dragonharte8, aka Spirithorse ALWAYS stresses head position over anything behind the saddle.

Amm2cd has it spot on. Ride from the rear to the front of the horse and the correct "headset" or "frame" (Oh, how I hate those terms!) will come naturally.

Spirithorse, OTOH, puts the emphasis on head position. Which puts the cart before the horse, so to speak. Subjective judging will always be with us in dressage. One judge's meat is another judge's poison. As others have said -- if you want objectivity, compete in timed events or jumping.

I eagerly await Dragonharte8/Spirithorse's videos that will educate us all on how things should be done!

amm2cd
Jul. 11, 2011, 12:56 AM
Ah, did not say that the 'on the bit' frame should be the sole focus. In fact, said that this position would enhance the performance of the horse. Now that does not mean the horse will do it on its own without the correct aids from the rider.
So, all schooling of the entire horse's body should be done correctly.

In your previous post (quoted in MY previous post), you implied that by lifting the poll and messing around with the head, ones scores would improve... oh, and stop all of those old ladies from flopping around on their poor horse's backs (paraphrasing, of course).

IMO, this is alot like saying Jared ate at subway and lost two hundred pounds. True, he ate at subway, and true the end result was much improved, but he also exercised, dieted and developed a healthy lifestyle. Subway =/ Skinny just as poll high IFV =/ correct training.

dragonharte8
Jul. 11, 2011, 01:33 AM
In your previous post (quoted in MY previous post), you implied that by lifting the poll and messing around with the head, ones scores would improve.

The reason for the mandated head/neck frame at all levels is simply that it is correct for the horse to 'be able' to use the rest of the body correctly.
Since this mandated head/neck frame is a prerequiste for all the movements [as stipulated in FEI Articles 401 - 417] it is not open to be subjective by the judges.

I never implied any other of your statements.

dragonharte8
Jul. 11, 2011, 01:51 AM
Well stated. As an English major, I could feel my blood pressure on the rise with the initial, somewhat misapplied, definitions of objective/subjective.:winkgrin:

An English major....
these are not my word but rather words from the dictionary.

amm2cd
Jul. 11, 2011, 01:56 AM
If the point of the thread is to ride correctly, then get the horses' heads where they belong, get off the dependence upon the curb bits, and ride easier on the snaffles, and oh by the way stop bouncing into the back of the horses.

And the words may be from a dictionary, its the (mis)use I think that The Hobbit objected to... (sorry for the split infinitive!)

carolprudm
Jul. 11, 2011, 09:47 AM
Why do you care so much?
You don't even compete...

.
He would rather beat a dead horse

AlterBy
Jul. 11, 2011, 11:48 AM
He would rather beat a dead horse

Even then, I think the dead horse would win! :P

LarkspurCO
Jul. 11, 2011, 12:13 PM
How does one ride a stretchy trot circle or a free walk with the poll as the highest point?

AlterBy
Jul. 11, 2011, 12:28 PM
How does one ride a stretchy trot circle or a free walk with the poll as the highest point?

How ignorant are you? :eek:

Just put your horse's neck in an inverted position!!! :lol::lol:

katarine
Jul. 11, 2011, 12:54 PM
Maybe the 'no bending' was meant to be in the Rider aid's box. and the 'rhythm not always clear' in the Harmony box.
Yes, sometimes scripts to make little mistakes that are usually corrected by the judge but this one might have slip...



I believe it is not an 'L'. It is an 'angle'. Would make sense.
The first Shoulder-in is more like a leg yield at some point.
We don't really see the second Shoulder-in but at the beginning you started with a big angle, then almost straight, then...the ground!!! LoL.

You got lots 6's, meaning your test was mostly 'satisfactory'.
You got some 'good' 7's and a few 'sufficient' 5's.

And as we can see in the video, most of your transitions from extended to collected gaits were not that good, and they are 2x, so you've lost lots of points there and with the half pass too. And you got a 4 in the canter transition. So the 59% means that your test was ok but you didn't clearly demonstrate the test's requirements.

Also, may I had that if I were you, I would try to shorten my stirrups of one hole. You shouldn't be reaching for your stirrups at that level and you are a good rider. Your stirrups are just a bit too long. IMO of course.


Agree with this and all of the above posters prior to this post. You have a big powerful horse who can do better, but your score is on the money IMO. I appreciate you posting your complete scores, they made sense to me as I walked through the test and scored it, then read your scores. While he's floaty and powerful and pretty: He's also tight and incorrect and out of rhythm quite often, which is a deal breaker.

LarkspurCO
Jul. 11, 2011, 01:12 PM
How ignorant are you? :eek:

Just put your horse's neck in an inverted position!!! :lol::lol:

Oh, carp. Guess I'll have to go back to training and 1st level and redo all of that. And hire a new instructor. I obviously missed an important part of the training scale. :o

rileyt
Jul. 11, 2011, 01:23 PM
If the point of the thread is to ride correctly, then get the horses' heads where they belong, get off the dependence upon the curb bits, and ride easier on the snaffles, and oh by the way stop bouncing into the back of the horses.

Since the point of this thread is to ride correctly -- and stop bouncing on the backs of our horses... why don't you show us how it is done? You don't need to compete to be an all knowing riding god/goddess -- So come on dragonharte8 -- why not post some pictures/videos of your riding?

[For those of you who are new to this game, there is no. way. in. hell. we will ever see a video of dragonhearte8's riding -- he/she is one of the throng of thousands of "classical" horse trainers in this country who like to spout the teachings of Olivera, de Pluvinel -- heck, even the dreaded Thomas Ritter... and you will never, EVER see the rider accomplish even a decent Training level test]

Here's MY opinion: If the state of American dressage is so awful, it has precious little to do with the judging, and a whole lot more to do with the fact that there are people posing as horse trainers out there who have no idea what they're talking about. The fact that Dragonhearte8 has "clients" only proves to me that there is a sucker born every minute.

mickeydoodle
Jul. 11, 2011, 01:47 PM
Since the point of this thread is to ride correctly -- and stop bouncing on the backs of our horses... why don't you show us how it is done? You don't need to compete to be an all knowing riding god/goddess -- So come on dragonharte8 -- why not post some pictures/videos of your riding?

[For those of you who are new to this game, there is no. way. in. hell. we will ever see a video of dragonhearte8's riding -- he/she is one of the throng of thousands of "classical" horse trainers in this country who like to spout the teachings of Olivera, de Pluvinel -- heck, even the dreaded Thomas Ritter... and you will never, EVER see the rider accomplish even a decent Training level test]

Here's MY opinion: If the state of American dressage is so awful, it has precious little to do with the judging, and a whole lot more to do with the fact that there are people posing as horse trainers out there who have no idea what they're talking about. The fact that Dragonhearte8 has "clients" only proves to me that there is a sucker born every minute.


I could not agree more, it astonishes me that PT Barnum was so right!:eek::yes:

The one pic that sh/dh has left of himself on his website is not one I could ever accept as a reference for dressage rider looking for a trainer/instructor.

katarine
Jul. 11, 2011, 02:05 PM
We'll see Dragon doing anything horseback 'well' about the time we see pictures of 7HL and Western on horses, period. Those are the resident Parellites on the Off Course forum.

I show my TWH in gaited dressage tests and I've had exactly one judge refuse to score my test b/c she doesn't know TWH's and didn't feel she could judge me fairly, objectively, because she's not acquainted with the subject. I didn't object, and was subjected to riding before another judge who agreed to judge my test. She judged my test fairly, as is the objective.

How's that for working subjective/objective into one paragraph a zillion times?

poltroon
Jul. 11, 2011, 02:10 PM
I would compete and I have a couple of clients that would compete, however, the competition dressage arena is not a fair and balanced venue simply because of 'those' judges who cannot score according to the prerequistes clearly stipulated in FEI Articles 401 through 417. Judges who score subjectively rather than objectively.

Showing is not about winning - it is about SHOWING. Showing off your horse and skills in public. Testing yourself to put in a ride when everyone is watching, to make everything count. Testing yourself to ride a specific pattern at a specific time, not just to do shoulder-in or pirouettes when all the stars align perfectly. And, it's about the fun of going someplace different to ride and enjoying a facility and seeing everyone else compete.

If you don't want to play, then don't.

DutchDressageQueen
Jul. 11, 2011, 05:19 PM
Showing is not about winning - it is about SHOWING. Showing off your horse and skills in public. Testing yourself to put in a ride when everyone is watching, to make everything count. Testing yourself to ride a specific pattern at a specific time, not just to do shoulder-in or pirouettes when all the stars align perfectly. And, it's about the fun of going someplace different to ride and enjoying a facility and seeing everyone else compete.

If you don't want to play, then don't.

Exactly!:yes:

DutchDressageQueen
Jul. 11, 2011, 05:21 PM
He is a lovely and talented horse, and you are a very good rider- but
Now mind you, I am not saying I could go out and score over 60% tomorrow myself- but

I think the score was accurate- as the others have said, the trot is not collected, it is "passagy" with too slow a tempo, too much "hovering" over the ground rather than the hind legs pumping to the bit and elevating the front end. There was very little difference in the medium/ extended trots, very little lengthening of the frame, and little transition (kind of petered out at the end of both). Lack of bend in the lateral work at the trot. (a product of the lack of engagement and hovering) The walk got "goose-stepping" at times, too slow a tempo with the forelegs hovering. The first walk pirouette stuck, the second stepped out. Canter also a little too slow tempo, and very little change in the medium/extended gaits. Better bend in the lateral work, because of better impulsion in the canter. Lovely straight changes.

The test in March where you got a 68% was much better- the horse marched forward with impulsion and engagement at all gaits (occasional goose stepping in walk) and the test really was 8-9% better quality.

Ride like the March test and you will be regional champ.:)

Thanks! :)