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HSS
Jul. 1, 2011, 05:59 PM
http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2011/06/30/hans-heinrich-meyer-zu-strohen-no-success-without-effort

I rode with him when the Hannoverian Verband sent him here to clinic with the members at Glenwood Farms. Nothing but the highest praise for his teaching, his horsemanship, and his knowledge. I would ride again with him in a heart beat.

None the less, it's sad to hear his comments on the young riders of our sport today. I know so many young people who would gladly trade in a heartbeat of a good horse and a chance in this sport- without cell phone chit chat or lack of basic good manners. Such a shame that only the wealthy have the hope of making it- what spoiled babies they are!

Elegante E
Jul. 1, 2011, 07:16 PM
Oh please, stop with the class warfare already. Bad manners and spoiled children run the gambit of class and income. Have you missed toddlers in tiaras?

Just blame all the hippies who named their kids flower and autum, and didn't see fit to teach them thank you and please.

Molly Micvee
Jul. 1, 2011, 07:54 PM
I was surprised to hear his young rider description as being in Germany. I can see this all too clearly in the U.S. Im tempted to say: iT isnt fair, It isnt fair!!! In a temper trantrum fashion of course. ,Because in many cases it isnt fair. It's sickning.

But I know the good riders who work hard and support themselves the whole way know the value of what it is they are really doing. And I honestly believe that most people who know their salt recognize this.

Molly Micvee
Jul. 1, 2011, 07:56 PM
P.S. Im not a Training level rider anymore. I dont have a clue how to change that. Should I care?

ToN Farm
Jul. 2, 2011, 09:44 PM
:lol::lol: This cracked me up.

ST.GEORG: Apparently as pony team trainer you once didn't allow a pony rider to go to the German championships because she was too fat. Is this right?

HHMZS: Yes that is right. The child was so fat, it just didn't look good and neither the parents, nor the child wanted to realise that. I told them I'm not taking these tons on the road. We had a huge fall-out and they filed a complaint, but at the end the directors of the federation judged in my favour.

kinnip
Jul. 2, 2011, 09:53 PM
I love his manner in the saddle, and now that I've read that, I love his manner out of it, too.

InWhyCee Redux
Jul. 2, 2011, 09:54 PM
:lol::lol: This cracked me up.

ST.GEORG: Apparently as pony team trainer you once didn't allow a pony rider to go to the German championships because she was too fat. Is this right?

HHMZS: Yes that is right. The child was so fat, it just didn't look good and neither the parents, nor the child wanted to realise that. I told them I'm not taking these tons on the road. We had a huge fall-out and they filed a complaint, but at the end the directors of the federation judged in my favour.

Great, kid qualifies for the national championship and trainer says, sorry, kid isn't pretty enough. Gee, Georg, what is too fat? Are you related to the American Saint George, by any chance? Hope kid doesn't end up with an eating disorder. :(

siegi b.
Jul. 3, 2011, 09:13 AM
I was just told about a study that was done in the US regarding the current generation (20-year olds), and it seems that they are not able to take criticism well at all. This apparently is caused by all the "positive encouragement at all cost" during their formative years.

For some reason this doesn't surprise me.... :(

HSS
Jul. 3, 2011, 10:02 AM
Hope kid doesn't end up with an eating disorder. :(

I think the kid already HAS an eating disorder.

Geez, the tolerance and support for the undisciplined is amazing!

My groom is barely 20 years old, and needs to lose AT LEAST 50 lbs. I have never seen her on a horse, and boy, I DON'T WANT TO. It's been bad enough looking at her in her tight summer clothes- makes me wonder if she owns a mirror!

She's a very very nice girl, super good with the horses, helpful, sweet, and I'm glad to have her working for me. On the ground. Call me an intolerant jerk, but when she bends down and exposes all in the low rider fashion they all wear, I want to puke.

THIS reaction is NORMAL, yes NORMAL. I don't know when it became PC for the obese, but it's NOT normal for the human body to carry around 7 months of pregnancy in fat.

A local trainer here has had a continuing problem with her thyroid, and you guessed it, she's unfortunately put on the pounds. All around her chest and middle. When she rides, the ENTIRE front of her body flops up and down with every stride. I find it so distracting I can hardly see what her horse is doing.....it looks absolutely AWFUL. Put that in a coat and it still looks -AWFUL. (She's at her wits end about it, and struggles to lose the weight, and has kept it at least from getting worse, but there's no way it's attractive. And she certainly knows it.)

I don't blame Hans Heinrich one bit for refusing to ignore the elephant in the room- I applaud him. He's entirely correct- in the absense of a medical issue, it's a question of discipline and drive. When you don't take care of your body and don't keep it in athletic condition, you're simply not serious about sport.

HSS
Jul. 3, 2011, 10:08 AM
I was just told about a study that was done in the US regarding the current generation (20-year olds), and it seems that they are not able to take criticism well at all. This apparently is caused by all the "positive encouragement at all cost" during their formative years.

For some reason this doesn't surprise me.... :(

Don't blast the 20 somethings- my young riders are amazing- self disciplined, engaged, purposeful, intelligent, hard HARD working. They are very inspiring- so not everyone can be painted with the same brush.

Only thing they don't see is dirt- if it's hiding under a cover :yes: I guess you see dirt better with older eyes.

InWhyCee Redux
Jul. 3, 2011, 10:57 AM
I was just told about a study that was done in the US regarding the current generation (20-year olds), and it seems that they are not able to take criticism well at all. This apparently is caused by all the "positive encouragement at all cost" during their formative years.

For some reason this doesn't surprise me.... :(

I grew up in the 70s singing along to "Free to Be You and Me" and expressing my tiny self as was the hippie-dippie New Age fashion -- doesn't mean I wasn't also taught discipline and how to accept criticism. :lol:

Lost_at_C
Jul. 3, 2011, 11:06 AM
I tend to agree that the problem doesn't really lie with a particular generation, or class, or nationality, etc... but I DO think that society in general has a big problem with people underestimating the value or necessity of hard work. We have somehow evolved into a society in which people are proud of their limitations and shortcomings, and while I am the first to root for the underdog and advocate equal opportunities everywhere, I really dislike the blatant lack of a work ethic in today's world. I suspect though that those that TRULY succeed are those that are still willing to make signficant personal sacrifice and put less stock in convenience. I think all sports - including dressage - are helpful in fostering those skills.

ToN Farm
Jul. 3, 2011, 12:15 PM
I think the kid already HAS an eating disorder.:lol::lol: Good one. And good post HSS.

Probably belongs on the current multi-page fatty thread, but every time I go to the super market, all I see is overweight teens with low rider shorts with fat hanging over the middle. More often than not, when I see a group shot of a college equestrian team, or even a group of FEI young riders, I see some that are overweight and clearly on their way to obese adults. Aside from being fit for riding, don't women care what they look like anymore? Is vanity a lost thing?

hrsmstr
Jul. 3, 2011, 01:05 PM
I think what angers me is when an obese person...be it a child or an adult..blames someone else for their inability to accomplish something. Don't blame the restaurant for serving fatty foods...no one holds a gun to ones head and forces them to drink that soft drink!

When I hear an obese girl complain that her HORSE is to blame for not wanting to do what it was trained to do, when the instructor says for the hundredth time, "he isn't responding because your leg is NOT on the horse"...there's something wrong there. Or when a grown woman shrieks and curses a hapless clerk at the tack shop about trying to pass off 'damaged goods' (in this case, the woman had forced her size 18 frame into a size 12 breeches and they split up the seam), (and in this case, the clerk was me) the situation has changed.
It's no longer the woman accepting the fact that she was fat. She did not want to purchase a pair of breeches that would fit her, because it had her size prominently displayed on it.
Perhaps she didn't want everyone to know that she needed a large size...as if we couldn't SEE she needed a large size? None of the staff was blind. We had all been trained on how to fit customers. My manager stepped in and tried to steer her-very politely-to the larger size rack and the woman snapped her head off. She "wasn't a size 18! We were just doing bait and switch and trying to make her buy the more expensive (and expansive) breeches."
Not only did the woman damage the too small pair of breeches, she then loudly denied damaging them, told me what my IQ was (lower than room temperature, apparently) and how horrible the shop was, and left. Without paying for the breeches she'd ripped.
Her last words were "I'm never coming back here." and we all, to a woman or a man, said, 'how do we thank you?"

I don't hold a person's weight against them. I don't care what a person looks like. Some of use are tall, short, thin, fat. Who cares? What I resent is when an obese person denies the obvious, that it is their weight that is causing the problem. I resent it when an obese person twists their physical problem into YOUR 'intolerance', 'bias', or 'prejudice'. I resent it when they use their obesity as a weapon.

HSS
Jul. 3, 2011, 06:12 PM
I don't hold a person's weight against them. I don't care what a person looks like. Some of use are tall, short, thin, fat. Who cares? What I resent is when an obese person denies the obvious, that it is their weight that is causing the problem. I resent it when an obese person twists their physical problem into YOUR 'intolerance', 'bias', or 'prejudice'. I resent it when they use their obesity as a weapon.

Yeah, in my business some of our customers are-------big drum roll here------------ethnic minorities:eek: So, if we tell one of them "NO" about something, 2 times out of 10 they pull the "race card". Using race as a weapon to get what they want.

Doesn't work though :) but we all find it highly insulting.

quietann
Jul. 3, 2011, 09:21 PM
Maybe I run with weird people, but I rarely if ever see people pull the obesity card. I do hear plenty of disgust from the other side, though; I work with doctors and they are mostly fairly thin, and in some cases (all younger female doctors) very, very thin. I also hear genuine concern, since they are high-risk OBs and have the occasional morbidly obese patient, and yes, obesity is definitely a factor in high risk pregnancies.

My barn's a mix; the BO is frighteningly skinny (5'2" or so and under 100 pounds I'm sure, not a bit of body fat anywhere), none of the adult riders are obese but a few of us are overweight, and the teens/young adults are mostly normal weight and a few are thin; the most competitive (not necessarily in a good way) is a little fat.

WRT the original article -- I do wonder how fat the "fat" rider on the pony was. Was it that she was fat enough to really affect her riding, or was Herr zu Strohen merely not wanting to be known as the trainer who allowed a "fat" rider to show? (sort of how some fashion designers don't want their stuff to exist in larger sizes than 8 or so, because they don't want to be known for designing for "fat people".)

InWhyCee Redux
Jul. 3, 2011, 09:34 PM
Maybe I run with weird people, but I rarely if ever see people pull the obesity card. I do hear plenty of disgust from the other side, though; I work with doctors and they are mostly fairly thin, and in some cases (all younger female doctors) very, very thin. I also hear genuine concern, since they are high-risk OBs and have the occasional morbidly obese patient, and yes, obesity is definitely a factor in high risk pregnancies.

My barn's a mix; the BO is frighteningly skinny (5'2" or so and under 100 pounds I'm sure, not a bit of body fat anywhere), none of the adult riders are obese but a few of us are overweight, and the teens/young adults are mostly normal weight and a few are thin; the most competitive (not necessarily in a good way) is a little fat.

WRT the original article -- I do wonder how fat the "fat" rider
on the pony was. Was it that she was fat enough to really
affect her riding, or was Herr zu Strohen merely not wanting to
be known as the trainer who allowed a "fat" rider to show?
(sort of how some fashion designers don't want their stuff to
exist in larger sizes than 8 or so, because they don't want to be
known for designing for "fat people".)

I'm curious too -- the rider qualified for an event, how grossly obese could
she have been to have made it that far?

And you're right -- some high-end designers won't go into production over 8 or 10, or if they do it's basically a special order; the samples sent to magazines and catalogues are usually 2 to 4--and we're taking a very slender 2 to 4.

paulaedwina
Jul. 3, 2011, 09:59 PM
I call BS on the idea that this was an issue of the kid not being able to take criticism. "You need to be more fit", "Your lack of fitness is getting in the way of your goals" - that's criticism. "You're too fat and you don't look right on a horse" is shaming. Shaming is seldom constructive. And to say that it's an example of people not being able to take criticism is disingenuous. Basically that kind of reasoning is - you humiliate the victim and he falls apart and this means he has a weak character. I say it means you're not a nice person.

I'd like to also suggest that people who pull the race card probably do so more often than you think they should because they've been conditioned by being discriminated against so they see race issues around every corner. They do not deserve contempt for that. Racism exists in our country like classism exists in Trinidad and we are all affected by it. People don't become super sensitive to it in a vacuum.

Paula

stoicfish
Jul. 4, 2011, 09:44 AM
A local trainer here has had a continuing problem with her thyroid, and you guessed it, she's unfortunately put on the pounds. All around her chest and middle. When she rides, the ENTIRE front of her body flops up and down with every stride. I find it so distracting I can hardly see what her horse is doing.....it looks absolutely AWFUL. Put that in a coat and it still looks -AWFUL. (She's at her wits end about it, and struggles to lose the weight, and has kept it at least from getting worse, but there's no way it's attractive. And she certainly knows it.)


I have this friend with cancer and she looks like hell. Her skin is a really funny color and she looks like death warmed over. I hate riding with her because it is very distracting. She isn't as good at riding now either and should quit because it NOT becoming. I think she realizes it too!


:no: You just criticized someone's appearance because of a health issue. WOW. There is a big difference between someone that eats too many Ding Dongs and doesn't move and a person with a health condition. I wrote the above to make a point. I had a best friend that had cancer and was on prednisone, she had a round face and she gained weight. While you notice these things, I never thought of her as distracting and AWEFUL. I saw someone who had more on her plate than fitting into a size 6. I thought she was beautiful because of her spirit and her ability to keep going. But I guess you notice the things that you value. I personally would admire a lady that keep riding even though it may be physically uncomfortable and she may be the subject of ridicule by other riders because of the symptoms of her condition.

snoopy
Jul. 4, 2011, 09:56 AM
I was just told about a study that was done in the US regarding the current generation (20-year olds), and it seems that they are not able to take criticism well at all. This apparently is caused by all the "positive encouragement at all cost" during their formative years.

For some reason this doesn't surprise me.... :(



:yes:

paulaedwina
Jul. 4, 2011, 10:04 AM
Interesting study, seigi b. Would you cite your source so I can read it myself? I'd love to see what instruments they used to measure such subjective criteria and to see whether they assessed the efficacy of their instrument.

Paula

stoicfish
Jul. 4, 2011, 10:08 AM
And about the fat kid.
Without knowing all the facts, I wonder if he told them ahead of time that he would not condone her showing because of her weight or he took the parents money because he didn't think the kid would do as well as she did. Then got embarrassed to show with her in public. The former is fine, it is his opinion. The later shows a lack of integrity. If you believe strongly in this enough to deny a kid a chance (that obviously put in the hours to be a good enough rider to qualify) than you shouldn't have trained her to start with or made it clear you would not allow her to go on the road till she lost weight.

HSS
Jul. 4, 2011, 10:16 AM
:no: You just criticized someone's appearance because of a health issue. WOW.

No, I just stated the actual facts.

Han-Heinrich points out in his article that these chosen riders are out in the big competitions representing their country and are held to a high standard- both in performance and charactor ie: self discipline- which entails being able to ride exceptionally well, being mentally totally focused under stress and staying fit.

I personally agree with him.

While I would not impose the kind of anerexic standards seen in actresses as a requirement, I can also understand why a rider who is carrying significant extra pounds may not be the best representation of the sport. It looks awful, it's distracting, and it has an impact on the performance overall in this judged sport for certain.

I can't think of any interantional rider who is significantly overweight for instance- can anyone else? This is a SPORT- it's not outrageous to expect someone to be fit to perform in it.

stoicfish
Jul. 4, 2011, 10:17 AM
I was just told about a study that was done in the US regarding the current generation (20-year olds), and it seems that they are not able to take criticism well at all. This apparently is caused by all the "positive encouragement at all cost" during their formative years.

For some reason this doesn't surprise me.... :(


This was a good documentary, gave possible explanations as to why we see the behaviour. http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/doczone/2010/hyperparents/

paulaedwina
Jul. 4, 2011, 10:26 AM
Of course a documentary is not a study. A documentary is subjective and not exceedingly generalizable. The poster distinctly said, "study".

Paula

paulaedwina
Jul. 4, 2011, 10:30 AM
While I would not impose the kind of anerexic standards seen in actresses as a requirement, I can also understand why a rider who is carrying significant extra pounds may not be the best representation of the sport. It looks awful, it's distracting, and it has an impact on the performance overall in this judged sport for certain.

Wow, I'm glad I connected with the trainers I did:eek:. Actually the sentiment reminds me of something from my childhood back in Trinidad. I took ballet (I was a twiggy child - I didn't get fat until I came to the States) and there was an old school White (significant to the discussion) teacher who was quite vocal about how unsuitable she found black girls for ballet. Why? She thought our backsides were too big and just didn't look right. I guess she was entitled to her opinion. Too bad she damaged so many girls' ambitions and feelings of worth.



Paula

stoicfish
Jul. 4, 2011, 10:41 AM
No, I just stated the actual facts.




I disagree. There are no facts when it comes to subjective statements like “ awful”. Aesthetics are not objective. The only facts are that she gained weight and that because of your value system, you find it distracting and awful.
And most cancer patients are not going to be on the cover of Vogue but seldom do people make a public statement as to their aesthetic value.

"That which is striking and beautiful is not always good, but that which is good is always beautiful." ~Ninon de L'Enclos

stoicfish
Jul. 4, 2011, 10:53 AM
Of course a documentary is not a study. A documentary is subjective and not exceedingly generalizable. The poster distinctly said, "study".

Paula

I know. Never cited one documentary in all my university papers. But since this is an open forum I thought I could post "other" sources of info on the subject without invitation.
While the conclusions are not held to the same scrutiny as a sociology study (which hard science tends to view as subjective to start with and often has too many variables to be conclusive), they may never the less still be interesting.

paulaedwina
Jul. 4, 2011, 11:03 AM
Absolutely they are interesting, but let's not call it a study and give false validation to a vaguely held sentiment that "what's wrong with kids today is....".

Just saying.
Paula

stoicfish
Jul. 4, 2011, 11:21 AM
Absolutely they are interesting, but let's not call it a study and give false validation to a vaguely held sentiment that "what's wrong with kids today is....".

Just saying.
Paula

I didn't. But if someone shows up and calls it a study or gives it credit equal to that of an under funded, inconclusive or culturally bias but published sociology study, I will direct them to your post. :D

paulaedwina
Jul. 4, 2011, 11:39 AM
Precision is a pet peeve of mine. If it's a study I want to read it. I don't want to draw 3rd hand conclusions. And of course all studies aren't created equal. I want to see how the authors drew their conclusions -by what instrument, etc. Especially with sociology type studies.

So I ask the poster who asserts there was a study to cite me the source so I can read the study.

Paula

Lost_at_C
Jul. 4, 2011, 12:21 PM
Precision is a pet peeve of mine. :lol: (sorry, couldn't resist!)

There have been a number of stories on this subject in both print and broadcast media. Here is one that may be what Seigi was referring to... (and btw he only mentioned that he'd heard about a "study" - is there really such a need to be quite so pedantic on a BB forum?) http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/30/magazine/30fob-wwln-t.html

If you want to follow up on the scholarly foundations of such arguments there are plenty of leads for you there... I personally don't think it's productive to imply that there must be questionable science or lack of scholarly integrity behind these stories, before even looking into it a little bit. You may not agree with the published output, but I doubt you can sustain such a polarized opinion if the full range of data is considered.

paulaedwina
Jul. 4, 2011, 01:00 PM
I am pedantic I'm afraid. And to be honest, more recently in the media as people play fast and loose with facts I find myself becoming more so.

Thanks for the link to the great article in the NY times, but again; opinion. Also, what does this have to do with justifying telling children things like "you're fat and look bad on a horse"?

And I suppose that kind of abuse is not new. Please see my post about the same thing happening in ballet when I was a child (I am now 42).

Paula

snoopy
Jul. 4, 2011, 01:10 PM
And I suppose that kind of abuse is not new. Please see my post about the same thing happening in ballet when I was a child (I am now 42).

Paula



...and you are still making excuses??!!:no:

Lost_at_C
Jul. 4, 2011, 01:50 PM
Thanks for the link to the great article in the NY times, but again; opinion.

Paula, I was suggesting that you use that article to follow up on the scholarly work cited within it; I'm sure you know how to do that - it's very simple with all the online journal archives these days. If you have any problems feel free to PM me.


Also, what does this have to do with justifying telling children things like "you're fat and look bad on a horse"?

Not to pick on you but if we're going to be pedantic please let's try to quote accurately and in context, and perhaps even remember that this is a translation of an interview conducted in a foreign language. You're in danger of serious double standards here.

As for what an article about parenting/motivation has to do with an unfit rider, I believe the point is that the one might lead to another, and some coaches feel it is still positive and nurturing - yes, nurturing - to issue words of correction/criticism when needed. That seems to be the point the interviewee was trying to make. I have no comment regarding the appropriateness of his particular words in that situation, because it is a translation of a dated anecdote told for the benefit of a particular readership - it would be silly of me to try to guess what was really said, how it was taken, and why. Calling it "abuse" is just plain hypocritical.

paulaedwina
Jul. 4, 2011, 02:07 PM
RE:
...and you are still making excuses??!!


WHAT are you talking about?

Paula

paulaedwina
Jul. 4, 2011, 02:08 PM
Lost_at_C

I was talking about the poster who said s/he agreed, and expressed very strong aesthetic judgment about how s/he'd do the same thing. The poster said something about not having anorexic standards but....

Paula

quietann
Jul. 4, 2011, 02:12 PM
RE:
...and you are still making excuses??!!


WHAT are you talking about?

Paula

Snoopy is after you because you are fat and she disapproves. End. Of. Story.

paulaedwina
Jul. 4, 2011, 02:35 PM
I see. I guess she missed that I said I only got fat when I came to the States for college. I was a proper octopus when I was a child -long, skinny limbs, and a big head.

The only take home lesson from the racist ballet instructor's contempt for Black girls' big bottoms is that adults have alot of power to make children feel really bad about themselves.

Paula

DutchDressageQueen
Jul. 4, 2011, 03:00 PM
if that child was really that Obese, then how could she have been such a good rider and qualifying? I cannot imagine an obese child being able to ride very well, much less qualify for that kind of competition!

paulaedwina
Jul. 4, 2011, 03:09 PM
That's what I was wondering as well. This is a BNT with athletes with international ambitions and likely abilities equal to those ambitions. So are we really talking about a kid that lacked the skills? I'm only speculating of course, but I had the same thought as you.

Paula

S A McKee
Jul. 4, 2011, 03:30 PM
I see. I guess she missed that I said I only got fat when I came to the States for college. I was a proper octopus when I was a child -long, skinny limbs, and a big head.

The only take home lesson from the racist ballet instructor's contempt for Black girls' big bottoms is that adults have alot of power to make children feel really bad about themselves.

Paula

By your own words you are 'fat.
But this is the first time I've seen an overwight person blaming their issues on moving to the US. OMG !!

When you moved here did someone force high calorie food down your throat or was that your own decision?

Sorry but I'm tired of all the excuses for weight problems and your excuse is sort of over the top. Yes, there are some medical conditions that cause problems but nobody on these threads seems to say simply that they eat too much for their activity level.

I know well two individuals with weight problems. One decided to do something about it and now competes in Iron Man type competitions. Her health problems melted away with the weight. The other one keeps developing medical problems due to weight but doesn't seem to understand that her medical issues aren't causing the weight gain, instead her weight gain has lead to the medical issues.

'Methinks the lady doth protest too much"

In Horse sports in general we see the impact of making sure everyone has a positive experience. In H/J shows we split divisions as soon as we get to 3 in a section. That way 2 of the 3 entries can say they were Ch or Res Ch at last weeks show. Who are we kidding?

Oh yeah I'm tired of the PC line that weight issues are no one's fault. Why do you think NYC controls what you can eat and drink in an effort to control obesity??

paulaedwina
Jul. 4, 2011, 03:49 PM
You know, I'd rather be fat than nasty.

BTW the weight gain for new immigrants is a well documented phenomenon. We come over here and fall in love with large portions, refined foods, and are less active (sedentary).

Obesity Among US Immigrant Subgroups by Duration of Residence

1. Mita Sanghavi Goel, MD, MPH;
2. Ellen P. McCarthy, PhD, MPH;
3. Russell S. Phillips, MD;
4. Christina C. Wee, MD, MPH


JAMA http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/292/23/2860.short

The longer you stay, the bigger you get: Length of time and language use in the U.S. are associated with obesity in Puerto Rican women

1. David A. Himmelgreen1,*,
2. Rafael Pérez-Escamilla2,
3. Dinorah Martinez1,
4. Ann Bretnall1,
5. Brian Eells1,
6. Yukuei Peng3,
7. Angela Bermúdez3

Article first published online: 19 NOV 2003

DOI: 10.1002/ajpa.10367

Look! It happens in Canada too Time Since Immigration and Excess Body Weight http://journal.cpha.ca/index.php/cjph/article/view/1150/1150


I could go on, but I assure you there are phenomena that exist even though you aren't aware of them.

There is of course a difference between excuse and reason. The reason there is a trend of immigrant weight gain is that of food changes and activity level changes as I've explained above. This is no excuse of course. It is just a reason.

Now, you don't know me. You've never met me. You have no idea what I do. But apparently that doesn't stop you from just being mean.

Paula

DutchDressageQueen
Jul. 4, 2011, 04:04 PM
BTW the weight gain for new immigrants is a well documented phenomenon. We come over here and fall in love with large portions

I can confirm this. When I came to the US, a glass of coca cola was as large as a vase! ( to me) I could not even finish half of it. Now however, I can finish one and a half!

paulaedwina
Jul. 4, 2011, 04:08 PM
My first American loves were TV dinners (ah; salty greasy in a plastic dish near instant gratification) and candy - specifically the GIANT popsicles you could get at convenience stores :yes:

I was a spindly 18 year old when I came here. I didn't put on the Freshman 15 - I excelled and probably put on a Freshman 40!

A couple of years ago (when I was 40) I had a coming to Jesus - walking up 4 flights of stairs of a parking deck when the elevator went out made me feel like I was having a heart attack!

My solution was to learn to eat like a foreigner again and get more exercise. As I said in another thread; my fitness levels are fantastic at the moment and I'm getting stronger every day.

Paula

HSS
Jul. 4, 2011, 04:20 PM
Gee- started a topic when I was struck by how refreshing it was to hear a BNT whom I actually once met and worked with insist on holding high standards of conduct and discipline.

This has now devolved to a pity party where everyone's a victim of obseity because they LIVE IN THE USA.

Nothing at all about the rest of the article is even being discussed except this little exerpt about some girl on a uber talented horse which her parents bought for her got denied her slot at a show because she needed to lose some weight. Oh, the utter HORROR of it all. In my mind, if Hans-Heinrich got through to her and got her to shed the pounds, it was PROBABLY THE BEST THING THAT COULD EVER HAPPEN TO HER IN HER FRICKIN LIFE. OK?? Because the health issues with being obese are life threatening, debilitating, and if not addressed YOU WILL DIE A LINGERING AND NASTY DEATH AT A VERY YOUNG AGE..

Yes, familiar with it all- as my office manager has taken off 300 POUNDS. Just ask her why and she'll tell you it was either that or die, and she decided to live. Not by surgery, either- she changed her lifestyle, changed her diet, and now gets exercise!! What a frickin concept!! And takes in less calories!!! Wow!!!

Sorry Paula, you're only a victim if you decide to be. Dont' invite me to your pity party-

paulaedwina
Jul. 4, 2011, 04:23 PM
I don't even understand why you guys are so evil. I never said I was a victim. I never asked for pity. I was merely relating a story of how I got to be the size I was. Please go into my posts and find where I came to you cap in hand begging your approval? I'm no victim, not even of mean, nasty people who feel empowered by the anonymity of the internet.

You nasty folk are acting like a bunch of ass biters - you know; the kind of shy sharp dogs that lack the courage to attack unless your back is turned?

Paula

mswillie
Jul. 4, 2011, 04:36 PM
Wow! I'm impressed. Managed to turn a "what's the matter with kids today?" thread into a more acceptable "bash the fat riders" train wreck in 5 posts. Well done.

That being said. I'm fat, I ride about 5 days a week, and we work at it. Why does anyone else give a good g*dd**m? I'm obviously not riding at the same elite levels as so many here so I promise you won't even have to look at me. I even have a couple of trainers who deign to lower themselves to help me improve my riding and my horse.

When someone else pays my board, vet bill, saddle fitter, chiropractor (who generally just gives my horse a quick once over about every 6 months before pronouncing him good to go), farrier and all my other various and sundry horse related expenses* they can tell me I need to lose weight to ride MY horse.

Until then I'm fully aware of what I weigh thank you. And contrary to the delusional belief that seems to be pervasive of some of the regulars that show up on these threads you're not "helping" the situation irrespective of how much you couch your disdain in the "I just care soooo muuuccchhhh" rhetoric. Bull.

If I actually thought some of these opinions were worth thinking twice about I'd have hung up my saddle and quit long ago. Lucky for me, and my substandard, downhill, shelly footed, short legged, big headed, grade QH type gelding I don't.


*I'll be eagerly watching my mailbox for checks. I figure $700.00/month should cover most of it. I'll pay for my own lessons.

paulaedwina
Jul. 4, 2011, 04:50 PM
Oh they're going to see my fat ass, MsWillie. I'm going to be out there doing first level. Look for the shining beacon that is my large black behind in the ring.

Wait for it.
It's coming.
Can't miss it.

Paula

mswillie
Jul. 4, 2011, 05:14 PM
Oh they're going to see my fat ass, MsWillie. I'm going to be out there doing first level. Look for the shining beacon that is my large black behind in the ring.

Wait for it.
It's coming.
Can't miss it.

Paula

If you happen to be showing in SE PA or nearby please let me know where and when. I would be happy to go root for you. We could be easily identified by our 2 large behinds, a study in contrasting colors. :lol:

Actually I'd like to get my horse out by this fall. We were starting to put things together until a month ago when we were temporarily sidelined by a case of white line disease. Treating that aggressively, and I'm seeing good hoof growth. I just ordered some Cavallo boots so hopefully we'll get back on track soon.

snoopy
Jul. 4, 2011, 05:15 PM
By your own words you are 'fat.
But this is the first time I've seen an overwight person blaming their issues on moving to the US. OMG !!

When you moved here did someone force high calorie food down your throat or was that your own decision?

Sorry but I'm tired of all the excuses for weight problems and your excuse is sort of over the top. Yes, there are some medical conditions that cause problems but nobody on these threads seems to say simply that they eat too much for their activity level.

I know well two individuals with weight problems. One decided to do something about it and now competes in Iron Man type competitions. Her health problems melted away with the weight. The other one keeps developing medical problems due to weight but doesn't seem to understand that her medical issues aren't causing the weight gain, instead her weight gain has lead to the medical issues.

'Methinks the lady doth protest too much"

In Horse sports in general we see the impact of making sure everyone has a positive experience. In H/J shows we split divisions as soon as we get to 3 in a section. That way 2 of the 3 entries can say they were Ch or Res Ch at last weeks show. Who are we kidding?

Oh yeah I'm tired of the PC line that weight issues are no one's fault. Why do you think NYC controls what you can eat and drink in an effort to control obesity??



:yes:

paulaedwina
Jul. 4, 2011, 05:20 PM
If you happen to be showing in SE PA or nearby please let me know where and when. I would be happy to go root for you. We could be easily identified by our 2 large behinds, a study in contrasting colors.

I absolutely will! I'm in Fayetteville (between Chambersburg and Gettysburg), ride in Thurmont, MD, and I guess I'd be showing anywhere from Hershey, PA to Frederick, MD. I ride at 2 barns (like you, I ride very often - about 3 or 4 horses a week) so I'll have twice as many opportunities to put it out there. You tell me where you'll be showing and I'll be there cheering you on!

Paula

Fourbeats
Jul. 4, 2011, 06:57 PM
How is acknowledging how one got fat making excuses? I'm overweight and I know it. I also know exactly how I got that way. No excuse. Fact. That doesn't stop me from riding 2 horses a day, working with both a nutritionist and fitness instructor, and eating right. I bike ride, power walk, and weight lift as well as ride and I'm still fat despite a strict 1600 calorie a day vegetarian T-1 diabetic diet. That isn't an excuse, that is a fact. What do I do? Go bury my head in the sand and cry whoa is me? No, I keep on keeping on. I keep working hard at what I am doing and try to be as healthy as I can with the realization that I will never be as thin as others or some chart thinks I should be. My cholesterol is below 100 without meds and my blood pressure is smack in the middle of normal. That works for me and my doctor.

I finally stopped worrying about what others think of my appearance and started to enjoy myself on my horses. I'm blessed to have good people around me who are nothing but encouraging and supportive.

Paula and mswillie, I'll happily stand right beside you and be proud of my big brown butt. It, just like the rest of me, is a work in progress and if anyone is disgusted by the way I look on a horse I have a simply solution. Just look the other way. :D

Lost_at_C
Jul. 4, 2011, 07:16 PM
Maybe these posts could be moved to the Obesity thread so that we could discuss the topic of this one?

To try to get it back on track, does anyone have any suggestions how GMOs or local clubs, or even individual stables could encourage riders to have a good work ethic and good manners? I don't actually think it's limited to young people as I have seen plenty of adult amateurs answering cell phones in the middle of lessons and other such nonsense. Is it just that we are too accustomed to having our attention divided in the present day and age? I wonder if some of the long-term concentration that dressage requires is underappreciated now.

Fourbeats
Jul. 4, 2011, 07:28 PM
To try to get it back on track, does anyone have any suggestions how GMOs or local clubs, or even individual stables could encourage riders to have a good work ethic and good manners? I don't actually think it's limited to young people as I have seen plenty of adult amateurs answering cell phones in the middle of lessons and other such nonsense. Is it just that we are too accustomed to having our attention divided in the present day and age? I wonder if some of the long-term concentration that dressage requires is underappreciated now.

Unfortunately, it's not just in the dressage ring but all around us. I think it's a result of the idea of self-importance above everything else that our modern society embraces. I see it in the classroom, in restaurants, movie theaters, and yes at riding lessons. No one is as important as that particular person at that particular moment and they truly don't seem to understand why answering a cell phone in those circumstances would poor manners. If they do they don't seem to care because it's all about them and their needs, real or otherwise.

I'm a teacher and I have a very strict cell phone policy. I tell my students that their mom and dad may think the sun rises and sets with them but no one in my classroom is that important as to where they need to be on their phone during my time. That includes me. Of course emergency situations are discussed before class begins but other than that, I don't want to see, hear, or even smell a cell phone in my class room or it's an automatic absent. 6 absents and they fail the course.

I honestly think a good work ethic and good manners begins at home when kids are young. Unfortunately, it seems to be a dying art.

HSS
Jul. 4, 2011, 11:11 PM
Thank you Lost at C. I could care less about how big your collective butts are or why they're big tracking around at 1st level anywhere.:sleepy::sleepy::sleepy::sleepy:

If I'm going to have my country represented by an athlete, I'd like that athlete to act like Lindsey Vonn and Maria Reisch. Class acts all the way! Truly inspirational athletes who are easy to idolize- because they are polite, even tempered even when utterly disapointed and in severe pain, committed to doing whatever it takes to win without losing their sense of sportsmanship or civility. I love their physiques, think they are both amazingly beautiful women, and this is from someone who has never skied in her entire life, and likely never will.

When I look around the dressage sports world, can't find anyone whom I see acting quite so professionally, and that's disappointing. A few of them are fine now that they're older, but when they were in their twenties, well, less said the better. Are dressagers just a bunch of spoiled brats? Makes me respect Hans-Heinrich's positioin even more.

InWhyCee Redux
Jul. 4, 2011, 11:25 PM
Sorry, HSS, you lost me and this thread when you had the BAD TASTE to criticize a woman with a known thyroid problem in a public forum because she looked -- what was it you said? Oh, yes, "absolutely AWFUL."

I don't know about you, but I thank my lucky stars every day that I can, for the most part, control my body and how it appears. NOT EVERYONE HAS THAT LUXURY.

God forbid you ever have to share an arena with me; I have no plans on getting a breast reduction to better please your aesthetic standards... :no:

Signed, A Tempest In A D-Cup, BMI 22

Fourbeats
Jul. 5, 2011, 12:04 AM
For people who claim they couldn't care less (correct way to use that particular colloquialism) about how big other riders are, why is there such a brew-ha against larger riders?

I prefer to judge people on their actions, not their appearance. It doesn't matter to me if they are large or small, perfect physiques or full figured. As long as they are willing to work hard at what ever they do, treat others with kindness, and generally just follow the golden rule, then they have my admiration.

Velvet
Jul. 5, 2011, 09:54 AM
I call BS on the idea that this was an issue of the kid not being able to take criticism. "You need to be more fit", "Your lack of fitness is getting in the way of your goals" - that's criticism. "You're too fat and you don't look right on a horse" is shaming. Shaming is seldom constructive. And to say that it's an example of people not being able to take criticism is disingenuous. Basically that kind of reasoning is - you humiliate the victim and he falls apart and this means he has a weak character. I say it means you're not a nice person.

I'd like to also suggest that people who pull the race card probably do so more often than you think they should because they've been conditioned by being discriminated against so they see race issues around every corner. They do not deserve contempt for that. Racism exists in our country like classism exists in Trinidad and we are all affected by it. People don't become super sensitive to it in a vacuum.

Paula

Sorry, Paula, but your post is just too PC for me. The victim mentality is just to prevalent in our society these days. Discrimination does and will happen, and yet many people claim it too frequently rather than rising above it, as used to be the case. People used to realize that those who discriminate cannot be changed. You can't legislate it. You cannot educate it out of people. If you are the victim of it, you need to just keep moving and proving yourself. Claiming to be a victim is just not going to get you anywhere. It doesn't help either side at all.

People feeling shame about things is not horrible. People often should feel ashamed about what they are or are not doing. When it comes to physical attributes, you have to recognize your own ability to make changes--and recognize when you cannot. People will always be people. Be it rude or kind. It's how you react and how you feel about yourself that counts. If you know that there is NOTHING that can be done about your appearance, then you need to learn how to not let those people bother you. You just CANNOT change the other people. The only thing you can control is yourself.

paulaedwina
Jul. 5, 2011, 11:05 AM
I respect your point of view but I disagree with it. I think shaming is not constructive, but it is an integral part of our socialization so that we think it is normal. I've been convinced to the contrary; that there are constructive options that are not shame-based. I've learned that you can encourage change without making someone feel bad. That you don't have to see yourself as incomplete or as a work in progress in order to pursue change. That is quite possible to be content and pursue change at the same time. Specifically to the discussion - one need not feel disgust or self contempt in order to become fit.

Having come to that understanding I see how insiduous and destructive the shame model is.

JMO of course.
Paula

HSS
Jul. 5, 2011, 02:23 PM
What I do have are standards. Welcome to the real world kids, not the foggy PC one you're wandering around in. Where there are actual winners and losers and not everyone gets a ribbon to help their "self esteem".

Standards for what horse I am going to keep and train. What rider I am going to take up to FEI. How my tack is kept. My barn is kept. The clothes I ride in. The manner in which I ride. The way I deal with disappointment and setbacks. The way I coach riders.

I've produced 7 GP dresssage horses so far in my career- and started each and every one of them to boot. I train at GP- not first level- and it is by design, not by excuse.

I respect Hans-Heinrich for having standards too- and not being afraid to enforce them or voice them. He's to be commended, even more now since this forum has been hijacked by the narsisstic victims.

My hat's off to him.

Fourbeats
Jul. 5, 2011, 02:44 PM
What I do have are standards. Welcome to the real world kids, not the foggy PC one you're wandering around in. Where there are actual winners and losers and not everyone gets a ribbon to help their "self esteem".

Standards for what horse I am going to keep and train. What rider I am going to take up to FEI. How my tack is kept. My barn is kept. The clothes I ride in. The manner in which I ride. The way I deal with disappointment and setbacks. The way I coach riders.

I've produced 7 GP dresssage horses so far in my career- and started each and every one of them to boot. I train at GP- not first level- and it is by design, not by excuse.

I respect Hans-Heinrich for having standards too- and not being afraid to enforce them or voice them. He's to be commended, even more now since this forum has been hijacked by the narsisstic victims.

My hat's off to him.

Everything in your post except the parts about riding and training GP horses and the snark towards those below you could come right out of my mouth.

I always strive to be the very best I can at what ever I set out to do. I buy the best I can afford, I take care of my animals and my barn with strict attention to detail, and I believe there is always room for self improvement in everyone. I also expect these same things from those around me. I believe in raising the bar high and giving people a goal to reach instead of lowering it to make it easier. That being said, I think positive encouragement goes a lot further than ridicule and superiority. I don't judge people on the level of their successes but on the level of their effort.

DutchDressageQueen
Jul. 5, 2011, 03:13 PM
I always strive to be the very best I can at what ever I set out to do. I buy the best I can afford, I take care of my animals and my barn with strict attention to detail, and I believe there is always room for self improvement in everyone. I also expect these same things from those around me. I believe in raising the bar high and giving people a goal to reach instead of lowering it to make it easier. That being said, I think positive encouragement goes a lot further than ridicule and superiority. I don't judge people on the level of their successes but on the level of their effort.

very well said.

Donella
Jul. 5, 2011, 04:21 PM
I don't think there is anything wrong with what he said. You can't be a top athlete in this sport and be fat.

At the end of the day, being fit requires discipline. If you don't have the discipline to keep yourself fit enough to succeed in your sport, then you don't have enough discipline FOR the sport. I think that is what he is getting at. Competition fosters excellence. Those who do not have the drive and discipline simply fall to the side because there are plenty who do. Germany isn't good at producing top riders by accident.

quietann
Jul. 5, 2011, 04:26 PM
I don't think there is anything wrong with what he said. You can't be a top athlete in this sport and be fat.

At the end of the day, being fit requires discipline. If you don't have the discipline to keep yourself fit enough to succeed in your sport, then you don't have enough discipline FOR the sport. I think that is what he is getting at. Competition fosters excellence. Those who do not have the drive and discipline simply fall to the side because there are plenty who do. Germany isn't good at producing top riders by accident.

True enough... but the vast majority of us aren't going to be top athletes... The vast majority will not ride at the levels this man coaches for. (The thought of myself as a top athlete makes me crack up :D:D:D)

paulaedwina
Jul. 5, 2011, 05:05 PM
I don't think there is anything wrong with what he said. You can't be a top athlete in this sport and be fat.

Nuno Oliveira ;)

Paula

Marydell
Jul. 5, 2011, 05:51 PM
Having known Hans Heinrich Meyer zu Strohen for years, he trained Don Principe initially, he can be brutaly frank. But I have never heard or seen him be cruel or mean spirited.
In the course of the interview,perhaps he did say something that came across offensive. But not being there when the young person involved was spoken to, we do not know the essence of the conversation.
I agree with his assesment of many of today's young riders, that they are riders who have had their hands held, great horses given to them and everything paid for by doting parents, and they are not "horsemen". (of course not ALL fall into this catagory)
This concern has been voiced by many of our top trainers today

DutchDressageQueen
Jul. 5, 2011, 07:01 PM
I agree with his assesment of many of today's young riders, that they are riders who have had their hands held, great horses given to them and everything paid for by doting parents, and they are not "horsemen". (of course not ALL fall into this catagory)
This concern has been voiced by many of our top trainers today

I agree with this.

The young riders who do get everything handed to them, and do nothing (basically) themselves, really, then everything they do/get/"achieve" means nothing. Zero. They will never feel truly satisfied with what they have "achieved" since everything has been handed to them. versus the young rider who works hard and puts all their time in riding, and devotes their life to the sport will feel fulfillment, and know they have really earned it and deserve it. ( I have had experience with the kind of young rider who got everything handed to them, and even when she won a class, and didn't win her other one, she'd throw a fit and get mad.)

quietann
Jul. 5, 2011, 10:14 PM
I agree with his assesment of many of today's young riders, that they are riders who have had their hands held, great horses given to them and everything paid for by doting parents, and they are not "horsemen". (of course not ALL fall into this catagory)
This concern has been voiced by many of our top trainers today

We have one of those in our barn (which is not a dressage barn), and she drives me and everyone else a bit nuts. Entitled, treats everyone (except the BO and the trainer) like they are "the help", terrible, terrible horsewoman, etc. She rides jumpers and just wants to hop on and jump the big jumps, never mind conditioning, being aware enough of the horse to know if there is something wrong, etc. But... wealthy parents, trainer and BO willing to look the other way, etc. Says she's going to make it as a pro.

Quietly, however, another girl in the barn goes about the business of learning everything she can, is kind to her horses and other peoples' horses and other people, etc. And *she's* the one who's getting to show sales horses, keep other peoples' horses tuned up, etc. She also has pro ambitions, and I am crossing my fingers that she is the one who makes it as a pro.

When they show against each other... girl #2 almost always places better.

InWhyCee Redux
Jul. 5, 2011, 10:37 PM
Having known Hans Heinrich Meyer zu Strohen for years, he trained Don Principe initially, he can be brutaly frank. But I have never heard or seen him be cruel or mean spirited.
In the course of the interview,perhaps he did say something that came across offensive. But not being there when the young person involved was spoken to, we do not know the essence of the conversation.
I agree with his assesment of many of today's young riders, that they are riders who have had their hands held, great horses given to them and everything paid for by doting parents, and they are not "horsemen". (of course not ALL fall into this catagory)
This concern has been voiced by many of our top trainers today

So, shouldn't he (and George Morris et al) start trolling the local shows for hard-working, unspoiled, dedicated riders on borrowed horses and take some of them on PRO BONO?

InWhyCee Redux
Jul. 5, 2011, 10:40 PM
I don't think there is anything wrong with what he said. You can't be a top athlete in this sport and be fat.

Nuno Oliveira ;)

Paula

I wouldn't say he was fat, but he was not a petite flower either. Ditto Sue Blinks.

AlterBy
Jul. 5, 2011, 10:41 PM
I don't think there is anything wrong with what he said. You can't be a top athlete in this sport and be fat.

Nuno Oliveira ;)

Paula

Nuno was not a top athlete. He was an artist. He competed maybe once?... never got a ribbon.

And he became fatter at the end of his carreer. Even then, I would not consider it 'obese'.

Donella
Jul. 5, 2011, 11:02 PM
Nuno? That's really grasping...as Alterby said, he wasn't a competative athlete. An amazing talent (and icon even) forsure, but an athlete, not really.

Either way, from the footage I have seen, he got heavy in his later years (but looked totally normal in his prime).

paulaedwina
Jul. 6, 2011, 07:10 AM
Nuno wasn't a top athlete!? OH NOES! I'm worshiping the wrong Jedi!

Nope; thought about it. I'm going to continue to hold Nuno in very high regard as he was a master. I think you're faced with a challenge to you logic.

A: You can't be a dressage athlete and fat.

Challenge: Nuno was quite portly.

Response: Well Nuno wasn't an athlete.

LOL.

A: All elves are thieves.

Challenge: You meet an honest elf.

Response: Well he's not really an elf.

LOL.


BUT in all seriousness. If you pooh pooh Nuno to support your argument, then we are not following the same gods.:lol::lol: And that might explain a great deal. And I am okay with that too.

Paula

Lost_at_C
Jul. 6, 2011, 07:37 AM
Paula, you should know better than to meet supposed flaws in logic with overgeneralisation and dismissal of key data. Try again:

A: You can't be a dressage athlete and prohibitively fat.

Challenge: Nuno was quite portly in his later years.

Response: Nuno wasn't prohibitively fat in his later years; AND/OR Nuno was an athlete in his younger years; AND/OR Nuno's athletic state in his younger years had more effect on his equestrian performance in his later years than his physical state at that time.

Care to apply your logic to a wider sample?

Lost_at_C
Jul. 6, 2011, 07:44 AM
I agree with his assesment of many of today's young riders, that they are riders who have had their hands held, great horses given to them and everything paid for by doting parents, and they are not "horsemen". (of course not ALL fall into this catagory)
This concern has been voiced by many of our top trainers today

I also agree with this; and I would very much like to see more opportunities for young riders that emphasise their horsemanship. I think team competitions are a start, but what other rewards could be offered? I no longer teach riders but I did have a few really excellent young students in the past, with less than stellar horses, who really learned the WHYs of dressage as much as how - and they developed those skills by HAVING to apply dressage principles to improve the animal they were riding. I wonder if we need to introduce new competition levels to create a fairer playing field.

paulaedwina
Jul. 6, 2011, 07:59 AM
RE: Paula, you should know better than to meet supposed flaws in logic with overgeneralisation and dismissal of key data. Try again:

A: You can't be a dressage athlete and prohibitively fat.

Challenge: Nuno was quite portly in his later years.

Response: Nuno wasn't prohibitively fat in his later years; AND/OR Nuno was an athlete in his younger years; AND/OR Nuno's athletic state in his younger years had more effect on his equestrian performance in his later years than his physical state at that time.

Care to apply your logic to a wider sample?

You guys are adorable. So you changed you mind? So Nuno was an athlete after all?

You're good at least for the laugh.

Paula

lesson junkie
Jul. 6, 2011, 08:03 AM
What I thought was remarkable was his encouragement for young riders to ride green horses. At the hunter barn where I take lessons, junior riders, no matter how skilled, very rarely sit on greenies.

Green horses have so much to teach, and not just horsemanship.

AlterBy
Jul. 6, 2011, 08:05 AM
Nuno wasn't a top athlete!? OH NOES! I'm worshiping the wrong Jedi!

Nope; thought about it. I'm going to continue to hold Nuno in very high regard as he was a master. I think you're faced with a challenge to you logic.

A: You can't be a dressage athlete and fat.

Challenge: Nuno was quite portly.

Response: Well Nuno wasn't an athlete.

LOL.

A: All elves are thieves.

Challenge: You meet an honest elf.

Response: Well he's not really an elf.

LOL.

BUT in all seriousness. If you pooh pooh Nuno to support your argument, then we are not following the same
gods.:lol::lol: And that might explain a great deal. And I am
okay with that too.

Paula

Instead of laughing, I think you should read more about Nuno and his students. He wouldn't have liked to be considered as a top competitive athlete...He said of himself he was an artist.

1. He was a great rider. No one said otherwise.
2. He wasn't 'fat' until is 60's...even then, I don't think he was that fat...
3. From what I read, I don't think he would have endorse any fat and obese rider as a student. He was pretty focused on being really disciplined and was quite hard on his students, that they be physically and mentally fit. I think he would have been way harsher with this little girl than HHMzS...

paulaedwina
Jul. 6, 2011, 08:32 AM
Like I said; we're following different gods if you say Nuno was no athlete therefore he doesn't need to fit the fat-riders-can't-be-athletes.

Also you hedge your bets and say, "besides he was fatty when he was older". Old fat Nuno would still be able to school the hell out of us.

Paula

Fourbeats
Jul. 6, 2011, 09:12 AM
I would like to know just how "fat" the little girl was. I can't imagine that she was that fat of a rider to ride with HHM and qualify for what she did. Seems to me she had to be a pretty darn good little athlete to make it that far. A few extra pounds can be ok to one person but totally unacceptable to another depending on their opinion of what a fit healthy person should look like.

kristinq
Jul. 6, 2011, 02:42 PM
I always strive to be the very best I can at what ever I set out to do. I buy the best I can afford, I take care of my animals and my barn with strict attention to detail, and I believe there is always room for self improvement in everyone. I also expect these same things from those around me. I believe in raising the bar high and giving people a goal to reach instead of lowering it to make it easier. That being said, I think positive encouragement goes a lot further than ridicule and superiority. I don't judge people on the level of their successes but on the level of their effort.


I'm a teacher and I have a very strict cell phone policy. I tell my students that their mom and dad may think the sun rises and sets with them but no one in my classroom is that important as to where they need to be on their phone during my time. That includes me.

(Bold mine). Very well said! You sound like a teacher I would love to study under.

Bats79
Jul. 6, 2011, 09:42 PM
What I do have are standards. Welcome to the real world kids, not the foggy PC one you're wandering around in. Where there are actual winners and losers and not everyone gets a ribbon to help their "self esteem".

Standards for what horse I am going to keep and train. What rider I am going to take up to FEI. How my tack is kept. My barn is kept. The clothes I ride in. The manner in which I ride. The way I deal with disappointment and setbacks. The way I coach riders.

I've produced 7 GP dresssage horses so far in my career- and started each and every one of them to boot. I train at GP- not first level- and it is by design, not by excuse.

I respect Hans-Heinrich for having standards too- and not being afraid to enforce them or voice them. He's to be commended, even more now since this forum has been hijacked by the narsisstic victims.

My hat's off to him.


I am so glad I don't know you!

I hope like hell your barn owner doesn't know you on this forum too because you're a right cow.

Bats79
Jul. 6, 2011, 09:52 PM
I would like to know just how "fat" the little girl was. I can't imagine that she was that fat of a rider to ride with HHM and qualify for what she did. Seems to me she had to be a pretty darn good little athlete to make it that far. A few extra pounds can be ok to one person but totally unacceptable to another depending on their opinion of what a fit healthy person should look like.

If you read the whole article you will note that on one occasion he says that he "allowed the parents to negotiate" and all was better the next day (different issue). So it would be appropriate to assume that this wasn't an out of the blue "no you can't come you're too fat" kind of statement but something that had been an issue for some time and was continuing to be one. You can also assume that the child was fighting a health issue (steroid controlled asthma) or something like that because then his actions would have been discriminatory. If however, he had proven that he had given advice as to how the child might improve fitness and weight and that advice had been refused he would certainly have as much right to take a stand as if his advice on training the pony had been refused.

He was making a point in an article not outlining a course of action. That being said, an article doesn't tell you if a person is an a-hole or not.

InWhyCee Redux
Jul. 6, 2011, 10:21 PM
[QUOTE=Bats79;5706269]I am so glad I don't know you!

I hope like hell your barn owner doesn't know you on this forum too because you're a right cow.[/

I hope HSS's wonderful, capable groom doesn't know her on this forum either, because she might be upset to know her boss is sickened at the very sight of her. ;)

Donella
Jul. 6, 2011, 11:35 PM
I stand by what I said Paula, I have never seen or heard of a fat rider at the top of sport. The trainer we are discussing is coaching riders for the top of sport. He isn't talking about riding as an art or riding for fun or anything other that rider for the top sport.

Even if Nuno were fat when he was in his prime (which he wasn't) and even if he was a competative rider (which he wasn't) you are still grasping big time.

Kareen
Jul. 7, 2011, 03:03 AM
Gosh there are some raw nerves up here. Where is the big deal? It's called reality. When you are missing a requirement you aren't part of the squad. It's no different from not being fast enough or able to jump high enough to be on a team. If your trainer thinks you need to lose weight you.need.to.lose.weight. That would hold true for any trainer. If it's the squad trainer I'd say that's tough luck.
I didn't understand Paula's post as blaming the US for her getting fat. She seems to have merely stated a fact? Maybe some people are oversensitive because they have much less self-esteem than they should.
I know plenty of sturdily built riders both male and female who are wonderful horsepeople and they are well aware they could shed a few pounds and look a lot better. It's the mindset that makes the athlete and if a few kilos extra were all that were in this particular child's way of being in I don't think MzStr. would have made such a drastic statement. Generally he doesn't take issue with just a few kilos too much. He does take issue with lack of workethic and discipline from all I remember from back when I rode under him.
So as a parent would you rather hear your child was kicked out of the team for being significantly overweight or because it's a useless spoiled brat with no work ethic or discipline?
Reducing bodyweight is something that can be worked on. Not 'having it in you' is something completely different and would be a pretty devastating 'diagnosis' from a Bundestrainer don't you think?

snoopy
Jul. 7, 2011, 04:25 AM
Gosh there are some raw nerves up here. Where is the big deal? It's called reality. When you are missing a requirement you aren't part of the squad. It's no different from not being fast enough or able to jump high enough to be on a team. If your trainer thinks you need to lose weight you.need.to.lose.weight. That would hold true for any trainer. If it's the squad trainer I'd say that's tough luck.
I didn't understand Paula's post as blaming the US for her getting fat. She seems to have merely stated a fact? Maybe some people are oversensitive because they have much less self-esteem than they should.
I know plenty of sturdily built riders both male and female who are wonderful horsepeople and they are well aware they could shed a few pounds and look a lot better. It's the mindset that makes the athlete and if a few kilos extra were all that were in this particular child's way of being in I don't think MzStr. would have made such a drastic statement. Generally he doesn't take issue with just a few kilos too much. He does take issue with lack of workethic and discipline from all I remember from back when I rode under him.
So as a parent would you rather hear your child was kicked out of the team for being significantly overweight or because it's a useless spoiled brat with no work ethic or discipline?
Reducing bodyweight is something that can be worked on. Not 'having it in you' is something completely different and would be a pretty devastating 'diagnosis' from a Bundestrainer don't you think?


:yes:

paulaedwina
Jul. 7, 2011, 05:37 AM
My rules for cell phones is that they should be on vibrate. If you have to take a call you must leave class (I teach college students -many of whom are adults). Regarding texting -the rule is that if you get caught using texing in class you have to get up and sing "I'm a little teapot" with all the actions. Having said that, I encourage browsing the internet in lecture. We find all kinds of interesting and relevant things that way. Also some students pay better attention and take more effective notes using their laptops.

Paula

TemJeito
Jul. 7, 2011, 05:52 AM
I stand by what I said Paula, I have never seen or heard of a fat rider at the top of sport. The trainer we are discussing is coaching riders for the top.

What about Cindy Ishoy? Todd Flettrich? While their weights have fluctuated, they were both definitely overweight when I saw them in international competition.

I'm not condoning being overweight (thankfully, I'm not) or suggesting that what this guy said/did was wrong, just stating facts that anyone can easily check for themselves :D

paulosey
Jul. 7, 2011, 08:53 AM
Thank you for brining up Cindy Ishoy, or I would have. She is a great rider. I think that more important than weight is fitness level. Yes you can be very fit and still carry some extra weight. It's no wonder dressage has a bad reputation for diva's...some of the comments here are very catty. If eveyone spent as much energy improving their riding as they do at slamming others, the world would have some very talented riders indeed.

siegi b.
Jul. 7, 2011, 09:08 AM
Kareen stated .... "Gosh there are some raw nerves up here. Where is the big deal? It's called reality. When you are missing a requirement you aren't part of the squad. It's no different from not being fast enough or able to jump high enough to be on a team. If your trainer thinks you need to lose weight you.need.to.lose.weight. That would hold true for any trainer. If it's the squad trainer I'd say that's tough luck."

You see, Kareen, a lot of folks in this country liken any weight comment to a personal attack. It doesn't matter what the circumstances are or who said what... if it concerns weight then by God they're picking on you! Why do you think there is such a huge percentage of overweight people in this country? Because teachers get taken to court if they suggest weight loss to their students, and employers aren't allowed to "discriminate" between lean and fat even if it does affect the employee's performance.

You're absolutely right that it shouldn't be such a big deal, but I'm sorry to say that in the US it is.

Fourbeats
Jul. 7, 2011, 10:59 AM
My rules for cell phones is that they should be on vibrate. If you have to take a call you must leave class (I teach college students -many of whom are adults). Regarding texting -the rule is that if you get caught using texing in class you have to get up and sing "I'm a little teapot" with all the actions. Having said that, I encourage browsing the internet in lecture. We find all kinds of interesting and relevant things that way. Also some students pay better attention and take more effective notes using their laptops.

Paula

I teach at the University level too. If a student comes to me before class and has a pretty good reason why they need to keep their phone on then I'm ok with it. Otherwise, I think they can live just fine for the 50 mins of my lecture. I teach English so we do have labs with computer access as part of the writing intensive curriculum.The biggest problem I've encountered is keeping students off Facebook and e-mail when they are suppose to be working on their papers. 90% of the time outside sources are not allowed ( I teach intro to comp and intro to comp research) so no reason to surf the net. So, I have a serious love/hate relationship with modern technology.

I think this goes along with the work ethics discussed in the article (which I did read, thank you) many younger people just don't seem to want to work hard to achieve success. It doesn't matter if that success is on the back of a horse, at their job, or for a simple freshman level writing class. They want to scoot along doing the bare minimum and then wonder and complain when they can't accomplish xy or z. Maybe modern technology with it's ability to give us almost instant gratification is a part of it. We don't have to work as hard to get what we want and maybe that is carrying over to other parts of our lives.

I think we've taken the focus off personal responsibility and consequences for actions, or lack of actions, in our attempt to be pc. It really isn't surprising that we end up with young people who think success is something that is bought or handed to them just because they are "special".

What is sad is this ideology isn't limited to just young people, it's fast becoming prevalent in our society and I do have to wonder where we got sidetracked.

Donella
Jul. 7, 2011, 11:34 AM
You see, Kareen, a lot of folks in this country liken any weight comment to a personal attack. It doesn't matter what the circumstances are or who said what... if it concerns weight then by God they're picking on you! Why do you think there is such a huge percentage of overweight people in this country? Because teachers get taken to court if they suggest weight loss to their students, and employers aren't allowed to "discriminate" between lean and fat even if it does affect the employee's performance.

You're absolutely right that it shouldn't be such a big deal, but I'm sorry to say that in the US it is.

Pretty much.

Fourbeats
Jul. 7, 2011, 11:44 AM
It isn't a teacher's place to suggest weight loss to a student. Edited to add unless that teacher is a teacher of something that does require fitness. Then I think a reasonable discussion about physical fitness would be part of the curriculum. Otherwise, size has nothing to do with intellect.

Yes, if a person's weight is so great that they can't honestly do the job, that is one thing, but if it's just a matter of being aesthetically displeasing to another person, that is a different kettle of fish. I think the problem with allowing employers to use weight as a criteria is it's too easy to discriminate based upon appearance rather than true ability.

danceronice
Jul. 7, 2011, 11:49 AM
I think some posters think HSS attacking and being purely aesthetically repulsed by someone who is not in optimum physical shape BECAUSE OF A MEDICAL CONDITION was well beyond "people should try to be fit" and into "omg there is someone who does not meet my unreasonable standard of appearance, so even though I acknowledge she can still ride, it makes me sick to even see her." So, apparently, anyone in HSS's world who isn't a size 4 or smaller should only ride after dark with a bag over their head, and the fact they're ill doesn't matter (blowing out of the water any argument that it isn't about pure, simple, pretty and has nothing to do with how effective a rider is.) Apparently they're someone who thinks "dress for your shape" means "hide under a burqa unless you're up to Vogue photo-shoot standards" and it has nothing to do with whether they can ride a horse. That's what's offending people there. So the rider in question was supposed to hide themselves away until they get well and can get fit because hey, being horribly sick and on meds is no reason anyone should have to LOOK at them?

As for the girl in the article, without seeing her it's hard to say if she was really unfit, or if like our poster here he just thought she wasn't pretty enough.

As for dressing trashy, that knows no size limits. I work for a two-year college and big or small, some people have no clue how to dress to be seen in public. I don't do fashion, but I at least try to wear clothes intended for outdoor use and not lounge pajamas. As for texting and misuse of cell phones and iPods, don't get me started.

meupatdoes
Jul. 7, 2011, 12:17 PM
I honestly hope that HSS looks like Xena warrior princess and has nothing less than a washboard stomach, because if she is sitting around with a little "skinny person's muffin top" rolling out over her breeches or her arm waves good bye twice, then she should probably get to work on meeting some aesthetic standards instead of hanging out on internet bulletin boards.

The last time I checked "typing" was not a toning excercise, and I thought we had all these standards?

fiona
Jul. 7, 2011, 01:09 PM
"Otherwise, size has nothing to do with intellect"

health issues aside,
for me it is absolutely connected to intellect. It takes a special sort of stupid to fail to feed yourself properly.
I repeat, health issues aside.

quietann
Jul. 7, 2011, 01:34 PM
"Otherwise, size has nothing to do with intellect"

health issues aside,
for me it is absolutely connected to intellect. It takes a special sort of stupid to fail to feed yourself properly.
I repeat, health issues aside.

Well bless your tiny little heart.

And when you see someone fat, do you ***assume*** it must be because they have a health issue, or do you ***assume*** it is because they are stupid?

carolprudm
Jul. 7, 2011, 01:58 PM
You know, I'd rather be fat than nasty.


THIS

Donella
Jul. 7, 2011, 02:20 PM
I don't know why people take this stuff so personally?? The guy doesn't care what you look like or how you ride. He doesn't teach begginer lessons or self esteem classes. He teaches riders for top sport and he knows what it takes to get to there.

Wether you like it or not, whether it hurts your feelings or not, being fit and athletic is part of being a top rider (and no, you can't be athletic and be fat). If you are riding with top sport in mind and you chose to ride under someone who coaches for top sport and this person advises you to lose some poundage and you can't then you don't have the discipline for riding at the top. But since none of you that are doing the whining here are potential team riders, you don't have anything to worry about.

paulaedwina
Jul. 7, 2011, 03:19 PM
I teach at the University level too. If a student comes to me before class and has a pretty good reason why they need to keep their phone on then I'm ok with it. Otherwise, I think they can live just fine for the 50 mins of my lecture.

The situation differs for me depending on the type of class it is. At a 4-year college where the students are younger I agree with you. There's no need for their cell phones to be on usually. In that situation I don't have this kind of flexibility, but most of my classes are adults returning to school. For example, my microbiology class is all nursing, PA, and the like. I see them as adults who have all kinds of responsibilities outside of the classroom and need their phones. They also are adult enough to weigh the importance of taking that call in the hall versus missing part of the lecture.


I teach English so we do have labs with computer access as part of the writing intensive curriculum.The biggest problem I've encountered is keeping students off Facebook and e-mail when they are suppose to be working on their papers. 90% of the time outside sources are not allowed ( I teach intro to comp and intro to comp research) so no reason to surf the net. So, I have a serious love/hate relationship with modern technology.

It's interesting how circumstances demand different tools. I'm teaching biology so we live on outside sources. For example if someone asks an esoteric question we'll Google it right then. If I'm trying to describe something I might get on the net to find a good model or image. So for us access to the internet is invaluable. Also, I post my lectures to Blackboard/Moodle and the format is Power Point. It benefits them to have a laptop to take notes right on the slides. And remember the doodling/concentration observations that were made last year?

I think this goes along with the work ethics discussed in the article (which I did read, thank you) many younger people just don't seem to want to work hard to achieve success. It doesn't matter if that success is on the back of a horse, at their job, or for a simple freshman level writing class. They want to scoot along doing the bare minimum and then wonder and complain when they can't accomplish xy or z. Maybe modern technology with it's ability to give us almost instant gratification is a part of it. We don't have to work as hard to get what we want and maybe that is carrying over to other parts of our lives.

I really don't see our young people as being especially bad at this. Sufficient onto the day is the evil thereof. As far as I see every generation says some version of, "You know what's wrong with young people today...." We old folks all have a version of, "Why in my day we walked uphill both ways to school and we didn't have shoes..."


JMO of course
Paula

Mara
Jul. 7, 2011, 03:27 PM
[QUOTE=Bats79;5706269]I am so glad I don't know you!

I hope like hell your barn owner doesn't know you on this forum too because you're a right cow.[/

I hope HSS's wonderful, capable groom doesn't know her on this forum either, because she might be upset to know her boss is sickened at the very sight of her. ;)

Karma would have HSS developing a thyroid problem or some issue requiring a daily dose of prednisone. Would she put her money where her mouth is and stay out of the show ring?

carolprudm
Jul. 7, 2011, 03:36 PM
[quote=InWhyCee Redux;5706341]

Karma would have HSS developing a thyroid problem or some issue requiring a daily dose of prednisone. Would she put her money where her mouth is and stay out of the show ring?

And this

Cupcake
Jul. 7, 2011, 04:28 PM
The most objectionable about this thread is that HSS thinks that her groom is disgusting. I don't understand how one could be so hateful online talking about an employee. Especially since her one fault seems to be that she is fat.
You better hope like crazy that no one (including the groom) figures out who you are in real life.....because I sure as heck wouldn't send any business to someone who comes off sounding so callous.

I don't post here a lot, but this particular one made me go "whoa".

meupatdoes
Jul. 7, 2011, 04:51 PM
Another 6 footer, spread with age into a "womanly" shape. My dad always said that Marilyn Monroe was the epitomy of beauty with her hourglass figure. Well, if she was 6' and trying to find riding breeches, she'd end up in tears like I do.

It doesn't matter what breeches I find to fit, as soon as I discover them they are discontinued. I end up shopping across the US looking for the last pairs of whatever. I'm down to starting the quest again. I would gladly, GLADLY pay for custom breeches just to save myself from the hassle. But I can't find anyone that makes custom riding clothes anymore.

My short jacket I bought 15 years ago, and it's like an extra huge- fits my arms and shoulders, enormous around the rest of my torso. My shadbelly I had custom made 25-30 years ago- it's aged and torn, but there is no replacing it I'm afraid. Another choice is a mens jacket- have several of them.

With a size 12 & now 13 foot, my talls boots have been forever custom made. Or mens, but now those are too small in the calf, so custom. I used to pay only about $60 more for the custom, but now it's another $250, so I'm saving up for Koenigs. Been saving for a year now, no closer I'm afraid.

Paddock boots, same deal. Wore Mountain horse steel toe for years, of course they were discontinued here in the US. Switched to Ariats H2O mens, discovered that the alleged steel toe was not in fact incorporated into my boot, one broken toe, blissfully Mountain Horse started importing steel toe paddock boots again. Will have to find the funds to stock up on these again as well before they stop making them AGAIN.

And gloves? I have a size 9 hand- try finding riding gloves for those paws!! Home Depot to the rescue- handyman gloves- cheap, washable, and they FIT. If you need them white and not gray there is always bleach. At $12/pair you can afford to run through them.

And it's always the same- larger sizes are made for fat people- not tall. The perportions are just all wrong- huge in the middle, too small in the thigh, not long enough. I wear a 14 or 16 in tall sizes- I can go out to a 36 in breeches and still not have the room or length I need, but the waist is big enough to pack my dog along!

My husband is 6'4"- skinny and long. Men's tall breeches? Made for someone with an inseam of 32! Ridiculously short when he wears a 38"!

A few years back it was possible to find clothing that approximated fitting- now the world seems to be inhabited by 5' midgets as far as the clothing industry is concerned.

Maybe a manufacturor will see this and hear us and MAKE RIDING CLOTHING FOR US :)

Well didn't I just effing call it.
Look what the posting history has revealed.
From April 2011.

Also, as of May of this year HSS was only claiming to have trained 5 horses to GP. She must be churning out 1 a month now!


Btw, HSS, it is completely possible to find breeches that fit if you are 6' tall. I know, because I am, and I do.
The difference is that I am a size 8/10. (Getting more and more exclusively an 8 as clothing gets ever larger.)
30/31 in breeches.

This should not be a problem for you to rectify. As you yourself have stated, "in the absense of a medical issue, it's a question of discipline and drive. When you don't take care of your body and don't keep it in athletic condition, you're simply not serious about sport."

So maybe a little less sniping at people on the internet and a little more discipline from you and you would have an easier time getting into your pants.

Fourbeats
Jul. 7, 2011, 05:04 PM
"Otherwise, size has nothing to do with intellect"

health issues aside,
for me it is absolutely connected to intellect. It takes a special sort of stupid to fail to feed yourself properly.
I repeat, health issues aside.


Now people who allowed themselves to gain weight are stupid. Nice:eek: And people wonder why overweight people are so sensitive about any discussion surrounding weight. It must be nice to be so perfect and succeed at everything you do. Well done!

ToN Farm
Jul. 7, 2011, 05:19 PM
Well didn't I just effing call it. Don't be too quick to pat yourself on the back. I know who this poster is, have seen pics/videos, and show results. I don't know the number of GP horses she made, but she has definitely trained a couple to that level and shown them. She is tall and muscular. I doubt your initial impression would be to think of her as overweight.

meupatdoes
Jul. 7, 2011, 06:09 PM
Don't be too quick to pat yourself on the back. I know who this poster is, have seen pics/videos, and show results. I don't know the number of GP horses she made, but she has definitely trained a couple to that level and shown them. She is tall and muscular. I doubt your initial impression would be to think of her as overweight.

What MY first impression would be is irrelevant.
I am generous in my "assessments" of others and am unlikely to think negatively of them unless really pushed to do so. So I would probably think she looks just fine.

SHE however, has described her aging "spread" and seems frustrated at the difficulty she is experiencing in finding breeches that fit.

At her same height but four sizes smaller I have none of these problems, and since she herself has stated it is only a matter of "discipline and drive," then the obvious solution is for her to quit her whining and just whittle away the "spread" until she can find clothes more easily.

But maybe Fiona is on to something and there is an intellect problem? All the discipline and drive in the world probably can't fix stupid.

I don't know, I have never had weight problems.
I rely on intrepid COTHers such as HSS and Fiona for all my info on how one fights the battle of the bulge, but it certainly seems logical to me that whatever they are dishing out would work equally well on themselves.

carolprudm
Jul. 8, 2011, 09:04 AM
I don't know why people take this stuff so personally?? The guy doesn't care what you look like or how you ride. He doesn't teach begginer lessons or self esteem classes. He teaches riders for top sport and he knows what it takes to get to there.

Wether you like it or not, whether it hurts your feelings or not, being fit and athletic is part of being a top rider (and no, you can't be athletic and be fat). If you are riding with top sport in mind and you chose to ride under someone who coaches for top sport and this person advises you to lose some poundage and you can't then you don't have the discipline for riding at the top. But since none of you that are doing the whining here are potential team riders, you don't have anything to worry about.

I don't think those of us who are overweight are whining.

What I do see is quite a lot of gratuitous insults and ignorant bigotry.

It's no longer acceptable to insult or make jokes about races or nationalities or sexual orientation so what's left?

FAT people of course.

But it's OK because they got that way by being stupid and lazy. They deserve it dontcha know. And the ohsoperfect skinny person will never ever morph into that disgusting fat person because they are much to smart to let that happen to them.

And if they do happen to "spread" well it's age, certainly not something THEY ate.

HSS try Equissentials breeches. They custom make them

Fourbeats
Jul. 8, 2011, 09:32 AM
Well said Carolprudm.

No I may never be a team rider but then again, I've never aspired to be. Not everyone wants to do that. I have other goals which are equally as lofty in my eyes. One of them is to be the best darn rider I CAN be. I am a constant work in progress. Maybe my riding won't meet the perfect standards of some on this board for what ever reason but that's ok, I don't ride to please others.

I think it's really a shame that a group of people who all share the same passion for something can't be more supportive of each other.

TickleFight
Jul. 8, 2011, 10:18 AM
I get the impression that a number of posters on this thread have never participated in competitive team sports. I'm not referring to adult/work softball leagues etc., but high school and college sports where you actually have to try-out.

On a varsity team those who can hack it get to play and those who can't do not. The coach picks who stays and who goes, and it has nothing to do with weight or looks... it has everything to do with ability, dedication, and effort.

I'm sure that if the rider in question had something to offer that nobody else did, then she would have remained on the team. However, she did not. A coach's primary goals are to win, and to develop those on the team into winners. If an individual is not able or willing to do what it takes then they are replaced by somebody who is.

meupatdoes
Jul. 8, 2011, 10:47 AM
I get the impression that a number of posters on this thread have never participated in competitive team sports. I'm not referring to adult/work softball leagues etc., but high school and college sports where you actually have to try-out.

On a varsity team those who can hack it get to play and those who can't do not. The coach picks who stays and who goes, and it has nothing to do with weight or looks... it has everything to do with ability, dedication, and effort.

I'm sure that if the rider in question had something to offer that nobody else did, then she would have remained on the team. However, she did not. A coach's primary goals are to win, and to develop those on the team into winners. If an individual is not able or willing to do what it takes then they are replaced by somebody who is.

This I totally get (although making a national team is far beyond the aspirations of 99% of all COTHers).

What I fail to understand is how gratuitous comments such as that someone's non-riding groom whom they have never even seen on a horse makes them want to vomit when they see her bend over have anything to do with making a national team.

That seems more than a little gratuitous and callous to me.

Fourbeats
Jul. 8, 2011, 11:52 AM
Jr. Varsity and Varsity track team. Specialty, 1600 meter and 3200 meter. I was never a fast sprinter but I had endurance.

I agree with Meupatdoes, despite the talk, 99% of the riders on these boards are never going to ride for a national team and for the majority of those people that's ok, so why are we pretending that one has to be at that level of ability (physically and aesthetically) in order to ride well? Why are we not encouraging people to ride the very best they can no matter what obstacles they are dealing with? Instead of saying someone is so fat it disgust someone to look at them, why not encourage that person to get out and ride more? To cross train with you? Help inspire that person to be the best they can be, mentally and physically, instead of acting superior because you are able to keep fit and trim? Honestly, what threat is that overweight person to you? And don't give me the crap about your taxes paying for their poor health. They pay taxes too and not every "fat" person has bad health. We all know plenty of fat and skinny people with poor health and plenty of both who live to ripe old ages with no health problems.

A person has to do nothing other than practice the Golden Rule. Is that really so very hard? You might even make a new friend and inspire that person.

TickleFight
Jul. 8, 2011, 12:52 PM
Jr. Varsity and Varsity track team. Specialty, 1600 meter and 3200 meter. I was never a fast sprinter but I had endurance.

I agree with Meupatdoes, despite the talk, 99% of the riders on these boards are never going to ride for a national team and for the majority of those people that's ok, so why are we pretending that one has to be at that level of ability (physically and aesthetically) in order to ride well? Why are we not encouraging people to ride the very best they can no matter what obstacles they are dealing with? Instead of saying someone is so fat it disgust someone to look at them, why not encourage that person to get out and ride more? To cross train with you? Help inspire that person to be the best they can be, mentally and physically, instead of acting superior because you are able to keep fit and trim? Honestly, what threat is that overweight person to you? And don't give me the crap about your taxes paying for their poor health. They pay taxes too and not every "fat" person has bad health. We all know plenty of fat and skinny people with poor health and plenty of both who live to ripe old ages with no health problems.

A person has to do nothing other than practice the Golden Rule. Is that really so very hard? You might even make a new friend and inspire that person.

My post was in reference to those who seem offended that a rider was removed from a competitive team for being overweight. Ultimately, a coach's goal is for his team to win, and all his decisions are going to be made with that aim in mind.

Like it or not weight does affect athletic ability, and these riders are not amateurs. Clearly there was another equally skilled rider, who was also willing to maintain an expected level of fitness, available to take her place. These decisions are made objectively, and to interpret them otherwise is silly.

Lost_at_C
Jul. 8, 2011, 01:38 PM
Why are we not encouraging people to ride the very best they can no matter what obstacles they are dealing with?

Um, that was kind of the point of the article that was quoted in the OP. It was about people's lack of motivation to become the best they could, and I believe it was intended to start a conversation about how to address that. That point got lost in this weird shouting match about weight and a host of other issues unrelated to riding. If you all take such exception to the comments of one of the posters, why not either ignore it, or else try to steer the thread back on course? Jumping up and down and calling a person wrong in as many ways as you can think of only calls attention to whatever it was you were disagreeing with in the first place. I can understand taking offense, and stating so, but then either ignore the thread or get on with the topic that is meant to be discussed.

This will get me seriously flamed, but I've been lurking on COTH since 2001 and I'm starting to feel like it's been taken over by people who have only recently taken up riding and would rather talk about sensational issues normally addressed by daytime tv. I know that's an unfair generalization, but I can't seem to hear the sane, knowledgable voices for all the ridiculousness of late. :no:

Fourbeats
Jul. 8, 2011, 01:45 PM
It may have been the point of the article but as most threads go, this one fast became an issue about weight.

I may be a relative newcomer to dressage but have been riding since I was 12 doing everything from galloping TB's to pay board as a teen to showing drafts in my 30s. As I'm just a few years shy of the half century mark, I think I've earned my spurs. :)

I do agree that a lot of people are returning to riding after taking time off to raise their families. However, I don't think that makes their contributions to the conversation any less knowledgeable just because they don't ride 24/7/365.

Lost_at_C
Jul. 8, 2011, 01:53 PM
I do agree that a lot of people are returning to riding after taking time off to raise their families. However, I don't think that makes their contributions to the conversation any less knowledgeable just because they don't ride 24/7/365.

And I certainly didn't intend to suggest that. Of course everyone has valuable contributions to make to dressage discussions - I just wish more of our discussions could truly be about dressage.

carolprudm
Jul. 8, 2011, 02:35 PM
This will get me seriously flamed, but I've been lurking on COTH since 2001 and I'm starting to feel like it's been taken over by people who have only recently taken up riding and would rather talk about sensational issues normally addressed by daytime tv. I know that's an unfair generalization, but I can't seem to hear the sane, knowledgable voices for all the ridiculousness of late. :no:

In my case you would be wrong. I'm 62, been riding pretty much continuously though not necessarily seriously since I was 11.

As far as my COTH creds go, I still have some of the issues printed on flat white paper. Back in the day people used to use those covers for wallpaper

grey_pony
Jul. 8, 2011, 02:56 PM
from the article:

We are also responsible for these young kids and guide them in their education. Unfortunately many don't seem to have been learnt manners. I have to make clear that I don't won't to be on a first-name basis with them and that I won't allow constant chit chatting on cell phones and that it's not forbidden to say "good morning". Boots have to clean, the girls have to tie their long hair together and hands don't belong in the pockets of their pants. We are not in the military but I am a bit stubborn in desiring some basic discipline.

I would LOVE to have a trainer like this.

HSS
Jul. 10, 2011, 06:44 PM
http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/archive/2011/07/03

WILLOW&CAL
Jul. 11, 2011, 10:00 AM
Dressage, as with figure-skating, gymnastics and ballet IS ABOUT AESTHETICS. We expect our horses to be fit,healthy and disciplined. We, as riders should strive for that as well. Although I do think a criticism of such a personal nature should be delivered with gentleness and concern for the child's confidence.

paulaedwina
Jul. 11, 2011, 10:42 AM
I thought dressage was about training the horse and rider to achieve rhythm, suppleness, contact, impulsion, straightness, and collection.

My mistake. Now I know dressage is about looks.

Paula

siegi b.
Jul. 11, 2011, 10:49 AM
Paula, after reading your novel on draft crosses and your love for big booties, I can't help but wonder if your riding isn't all about looks, too...? :eek:

paulaedwina
Jul. 11, 2011, 11:03 AM
Not really. When I ride a draft I feel rooted to the earth and at the same time able to achieve anything. I love their wide backs and their giant hearts. Sure I like their looks too, but I can definitely say my riding isn't all about looks. Is yours?

Paula

carolprudm
Jul. 11, 2011, 12:03 PM
Paula, after reading your novel on draft crosses and your love for big booties, I can't help but wonder if your riding isn't all about looks, too...? :eek:
LOL, not Paula but I love my Registered Irish Draught Sport Horse and her big bootie. https://picasaweb.google.com/carolp3231/Sophie#5467746028727381890 She can really kick it into overdrive

BTW, that is not a false tail

paulaedwina
Jul. 11, 2011, 01:37 PM
THAT is my kind of horsie!:D

Paula

WILLOW&CAL
Jul. 11, 2011, 02:06 PM
I thought dressage was about training the horse and rider to achieve rhythm, suppleness, contact, impulsion, straightness, and collection.

My mistake. Now I know dressage is about looks.

Paula

:lol:I guess I should have qualified that statement...Its ALSO about aesthetics. Oh bugger it, you know what I mean ;)

paulaedwina
Jul. 11, 2011, 02:11 PM
Yeah okay I'll give you that, but it's about a different kind of aesthetics than who's a fatty. I think there's a beauty is correct riding that we all long for. Klimke had it for example. And that doesn't have anything to do with size I'd say. I've seen skinny riders who you just want to stop and get off the horse. One rider whose style I admire a great deal is a woman I describe as a pocket hercules. She's short and strong and far from wispy. So that's the kind of aesthetics I'd attest to.

Paula

WILLOW&CAL
Jul. 11, 2011, 03:38 PM
I agree, and I'm not saying you need to be a coat-rack (I'm certainly not). I just think there needs to be visual harmony between the horse and rider (not to mention the physics of big rider on a petite animal) and when somebody says to me 'you're too fat for this horse' I'll make sure I either lose the required weight or get a horse more suited to my physique.

Isabeau Z Solace
Jul. 11, 2011, 04:02 PM
Why is it okay for the rider to be overweight but not okay for the horse ?

quietann
Jul. 11, 2011, 04:10 PM
Why is it okay for the rider to be overweight but not okay for the horse ?

Um, a lot of dressage horses *are* too fat. My vet complains about it quite a lot!

Velvet
Jul. 11, 2011, 04:11 PM
http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/archive/2011/07/03

:lol: I had an old barn friend who worked for an Army recruiting office. I sent her this link and she sent back the following, "They(recruiters) won't even let you try to come down to enlist unless you are the correct weight. If you aren't, the recruiting stations have regular workout programs that overweight potential applicants are invited to participate in. When they lose the weight, then and only then are they allowed to even try."

ToN Farm
Jul. 11, 2011, 04:53 PM
Um, a lot of dressage horses *are* too fat. My vet complains about it quite a lot! Ahh, but the horses are fat and fit. Don't forget, you can be fat and fit...so the overweight riders say.

siegi b.
Jul. 11, 2011, 06:24 PM
Paula - you can try all you want but your verbosity/prolixity is not going to get the heavy riders into the Olympics.

I had to laugh at your comment "When I ride a draft I feel rooted to the earth", especially after looking at the video of your latest love in horses. No doubt you will be rooted to the earth on that one.... :)

paulaedwina
Jul. 11, 2011, 06:46 PM
With a smiley face, that kind of venom? Nice.

Your snark just sucked all the fun I'm going to have with that horse in all kinds of activities -dressage just being one of them. Heck now I'm so discouraged I'm going to give him back.

No not really ;)

It's funny what you say, and then what a contact I have says about the same horse. This contact rides draft horses in dressage. This contact, an experienced rider of dressage and performance who has been a wonderful person says to me,

"I hope I am not congratulating you prematurely but Congratulations !!! You persevered and finally you have found yourself a Very, Very Nicely put together and seemingly solid minded, PRETTY Boy, I really like him and besides his all around conformation I LOVE His Ears ! I am really truly happy for you please let me know how you two are doing as you get to know each other.
Lots of Love To Your New Horse, and Carrots !!!"

So let's see; your snark and your credentials are what.... versus her support and good heart. Darn; I'd say it's a real toss up who I'm going to pay attention to.

ETA: A kind word turneth away wrath. http://www.flickr.com/photos/52967336@N00/5917819785/

Paula

carolprudm
Jul. 11, 2011, 07:20 PM
Paula - you can try all you want but your verbosity/prolixity is not going to get the heavy riders into the Olympics.

I had to laugh at your comment "When I ride a draft I feel rooted to the earth", especially after looking at the video of your latest love in horses. No doubt you will be rooted to the earth on that one.... :)

WOW, just wow.

Neither Paula nor you nor I have any say on who gets into the olympics. However not everyone wants to go to the olympics and believe it or not everyone is lusting after a continental WB.

To be honest, while I have no opinion of the horse Paula is buying, given the choice between Sophie and one of yours I'll take Sophie, hands down, for the simple reason that I really enjoy riding her.

AlterBy
Jul. 11, 2011, 07:41 PM
But wasn't this thread about people who wants to go further in their sports, be competitive and yes, dream about the Olympics?

And not about people who wants to ride dressage in their backyard for fun with their horse that have pretty ears.

Each one their desire and deserve respect of course but we cannot mix them to fit one mold.

carolprudm
Jul. 11, 2011, 08:22 PM
But wasn't this thread about people who wants to go further in their sports, be competitive and yes, dream about the Olympics?

And not about people who wants to ride dressage in their backyard for fun with their horse that have pretty ears.

Each one their desire and deserve respect of course but we cannot mix them to fit one mold.

Yes it was. Paula started another thread about her new horse and Siegi refered to it here. And actually she was most excited about his engine

paulaedwina
Jul. 11, 2011, 08:25 PM
And not about people who wants to ride dressage in their backyard for fun with their horse that have pretty ears.

Dang. What is this, Jealousy? The dressage version of "It's a wonderful life"; every time a non-European warmblood might excel at dressage a dressage queen gets a little indigestion?

You guys are adorable. Keep talking like this - it doesn't make anybody look bad other than yourself.

Paula
http://www.flickr.com/photos/52967336@N00/5917819785/

DutchDressageQueen
Jul. 11, 2011, 09:00 PM
Dressage can help any horse/rider combination. No matter if the horse is a fancy WB or a ottb, or the rider has lots of talent, or rides for fun.
I do have Olympic aspirations, but to discourage others in becoming the best riders they can be? that really makes yourself look bad and greedy ( like paulaedwina said) It will only work against you. Do not try to put others down, instead, help them up. Be humble.

Cupcake
Jul. 11, 2011, 10:01 PM
Paula - you can try all you want but your verbosity/prolixity is not going to get the heavy riders into the Olympics.

I had to laugh at your comment "When I ride a draft I feel rooted to the earth", especially after looking at the video of your latest love in horses. No doubt you will be rooted to the earth on that one.... :)

That's exactly the kind of classy comment one would expect from a respected breeder of Dutch horses....NOT.

cnm161
Jul. 11, 2011, 10:09 PM
Dang. What is this, Jealousy? The dressage version of "It's a wonderful life"; every time a non-European warmblood might excel at dressage a dressage queen gets a little indigestion?

Love the jealousy argument...

There's a very big difference between saying "YOU SHOULD NEVER RIDE AGAIN", and not choosing a rider to represent the nation in international competition. I doubt that HHMzS looked at the qualified riders list and ticked 'em off:
Thin: check
Thin: check
Fatty: NO WAY. NO FRIGGIN WAY.
Thin: check

Now, seeing as I don't know all the facts, maybe I'm way off base. It's been mentioned before that a spot on the team isn't guaranteed simply by virtue of completion of all qualification criteria. These aren't USDF regional championships we're talking about here-- not everyone who qualifies can pay the entry fees at the end of the season and show.

There are different strata of competition, and different standards for each. Comparing local riders/shows to international championships is quite the stretch. Still, I hope this young rider continues to ride... because she's already doing better better than I am.

paulaedwina
Jul. 11, 2011, 10:23 PM
Sorry for the confusion; the jealousy comment was not directed at the subject of this discussion, but to the post that was so very condescending about people who ride backyard dressage on their horses with cute ears.

Paula

amm2cd
Jul. 11, 2011, 11:54 PM
Cnm161.... maybe I'm watching too much Family guy, but that made me giggle....

And now warmbloods can't have cute ears? I'm gonna have to let the Dutch guy in the barn know.

Gosh darn, now COTH has gone and redefined standards for all dressage riders.

WILLOW&CAL
Jul. 12, 2011, 04:58 AM
Lets not get personal here,folks. Pauledwina, I hear what you're saying and I agree with you to some extent. If anyone has aspirations to go to the Olympics you simply cannot be average on any level-ability, fitness or quality of horse. What Hans-Heinrich Meyer is stressing is the absolute, unfailing dedication to the sport. No idleness, laziness, chit-chat on your phone whilst in the session with an instructor and certainly no forgetting your own advancement as a sportsman. I believe that there are very valid medical reasons for fat...and not so valid ones. That being said, a fit, supple body will give you an edge so if you can help it...get fitter, slimmer, suppler. It shows dedication. I would kill and sacrifice small furry animals and all manner of baked goods to get into his program. A kid who is not committed should bugger off and make a space for a kid who will be respectful do the work to get further.
I would love to see more breeds being represented and more riders of different sizes but reality bites...I dont like it but it's not going to change.

paulaedwina
Jul. 12, 2011, 05:58 AM
I was with you all the way to the last sentence. I really like how you wrote it.

I don't subscribe to the, "eh well, it ain't gonna change" POV though. You never know who is going to break through where. I mean, goodness, the horses have changed haven't they? I love looking at Klimke's 1984 olympics performance. Do you see anything that willowy in dressage today? I guess I'm 180 degrees the other way - things are always changing. Change may be the only thing you can guarantee about the future.

Paula

meupatdoes
Jul. 12, 2011, 08:21 AM
I had to laugh at your comment "When I ride a draft I feel rooted to the earth", especially after looking at the video of your latest love in horses. No doubt you will be rooted to the earth on that one.... :)

What a completely dick move to directly make fun of somebody's HORSE.

Completely uncalled for from both a horsemanship and sportsmanship perspective. You DO NOT dismiss the value of the creatures who, regardless of how fancy they are or aren't, give us this sport and allow us to do it by putting their heart and willingness into the work.

I would be MUCH more likely to pull a student off a horse for letting fly with a comment like that than being a few pounds overweight. Such blatant disrespect for a horse (ANY horse) would be simply unacceptable in my program.

I am losing respect for one COTHer after the other on this thread.

siegi b.
Jul. 12, 2011, 09:09 AM
meupatdoes - you can lose respect all you want, but you can't deny reality. One of the many things you learn after 25+ years of breeding horses for the sport is what makes a dressage prospect.

Now we can all be sweet and nod our heads in constant agreement, or we can choose to learn. When somebody tells you that they have PSG on their radar and then gives you a link to a horse that will never in his life get even close to that, what do you want me to say? Oh, I love his big booty? Or I think he will make his rider feel grounded?? What the heck does that even mean?

Last time I checked this was the "Dressage" forum, not the "Let's all Congratulate Ourselves for Being so Below Average" Forum!

carolprudm
Jul. 12, 2011, 09:22 AM
meupatdoes - you can lose respect all you want, but you can't deny reality. One of the many things you learn after 25+ years of breeding horses for the sport is what makes a dressage prospect.

Now we can all be sweet and nod our heads in constant agreement, or we can choose to learn. When somebody tells you that they have PSG on their radar and then gives you a link to a horse that will never in his life get even close to that, what do you want me to say? Oh, I love his big booty? Or I think he will make his rider feel grounded?? What the heck does that even mean?

Last time I checked this was the "Dressage" forum, not the "Let's all Congratulate Ourselves for Being so Below Average" Forum!

As my momma used to say "If you can't say something nice, keep your mouth shut"

siegi b.
Jul. 12, 2011, 09:30 AM
Carol - seems to me I asked that question of meupatdoes..... ? :)

meupatdoes
Jul. 12, 2011, 09:42 AM
meupatdoes - you can lose respect all you want, but you can't deny reality. One of the many things you learn after 25+ years of breeding horses for the sport is what makes a dressage prospect.

Now we can all be sweet and nod our heads in constant agreement, or we can choose to learn. When somebody tells you that they have PSG on their radar and then gives you a link to a horse that will never in his life get even close to that, what do you want me to say? Oh, I love his big booty? Or I think he will make his rider feel grounded?? What the heck does that even mean?

Last time I checked this was the "Dressage" forum, not the "Let's all Congratulate Ourselves for Being so Below Average" Forum!

First of all, no one ASKED YOU for a critique of that horse.
Nobody made any claims it was going to be the next regional champ either; paulaedwina was simply excited that she found a horse that suited HER.
You do not just jump in to critique a horse randomly from the rail, and you certainly do not make comments at an innocent horse's expense to take pot shots at a horse's owner or prospective owner. You just. Don't.

Secondly, any true horseman knows that there is always something positive to be said about any horse. You can look at a horse generously or stingily. Maybe it moves like a cart horse and falls over itself in the legyield -and you know what? When it gives it a try and takes a stab you pet it and say, "Good boy!" When it obligingly trots around in a field with no bridle and a pleasant, willing expression on its face you rub it and pet it and say, "What a nice, sweet horse you are. Good boy!" That horse can turn around and whuffle in your hair in response to a kind word and pat just as well as any other.

A horse does not know whether he moves a 10 or a 3. He just knows that he went for a ride and did as he was asked, because somebody decided to pull him out and take him for a spin. You show respect for his willingness and good nature. Moving a 10 is additional icing, but the inherent character and generosity of a horse to do a job in our service deserves respect no matter what. You do not dismiss his work and what he offers simply because on some arbitrary human scale he doesn't move a 10.

And when another human offers that horse the positive respect and affection for that horse that EVERY horse deserves, you DO NOT rip the horse down to take a pot shot at the person. You DO NOT make fun of other people showing respect to and affection for a horse. You tell them, "Aw, man. You guys make such a nice pair. How nice that you have found each other." And you rub the horse's neck and give him a (sincerely) affectionate pat while you say it. Nobody is forcing you to ride it or hail it as the next Olympic gold medal prospect but at a minimum you still show it respect and kindness.

You show respect for the horse.
ANY horse.

Period.
End of story.

Ripping down a horse is the lowest of the low.
If you can not find something to like about every horse or at the very least show them all BASIC RESPECT then I really wonder why you are even in the business.

carolprudm
Jul. 12, 2011, 09:55 AM
Carol - seems to me I asked that question of meupatdoes..... ? :)

I am sorry you misunderstood. I was refering to

Originally Posted by siegi b.I had to laugh at your comment "When I ride a draft I feel rooted to the earth", especially after looking at the video of your latest love in horses. No doubt you will be rooted to the earth on that one.... :)

siegi b.
Jul. 12, 2011, 10:07 AM
meupatdoes - I'm very glad you have your own world to live in.

Respect.
Your.
Horse!

I do like the way you arrange your paragraphs.

It makes some of your statements look quite.
important.

Period.
End of.
Story!

Do not ever go to shows... you and your horse will get judged. How are you going to explain this to your horse?

To get back to the original subject....

No success.
without.
Effort.

(Last time I checked this was the "Dressage" forum, not the "Let's all Congratulate Ourselves for Being so Below Average" Forum!)

meupatdoes
Jul. 12, 2011, 10:13 AM
meupatdoes - I'm very glad you have your own world to live in.

Respect.
Your.
Horse!

I do like the way you arrange your paragraphs.

It makes some of your statements look quite.
important.

Period.
End of.
Story!

Do not ever go to shows... you and your horse will get judged. How are you going to explain this to your horse?

To get back to the original subject....

No success.
without.
Effort.

I have absolutely no problem with my horses getting judged.
When I ride them in the ring under a judge under an arbitrary set of standards then they will be measured against an arbitrary set of standards.

But regardless of how they do with respect to those arbitrary standards, they still deserve basic respect and kindness.

I will treat horses like superstars and make them feel special whether they are 55% horses or 75% horses. They don't know their score; they just know they are making an effort and getting a pat for it.

No horse deserves to be treated like he's "less than" simply because a judge wouldn't give him a 70.

Basic respect for a horse does not depend on a score.

HSS
Jul. 12, 2011, 10:22 AM
Last time I checked this was the "Dressage" forum, not the "Let's all Congratulate Ourselves for Being so Below Average" Forum!

Way Way WAY below average.

I just love the criticism directed at me from people who have never in their lives even SAT on a GP horse- would no doubt be frightened out of their "nice grounded feeling" for sure- much less breed, break and train one.

This is certainly not a discussion of standards- nor expectations- nor any of the things which I so admired about Hans-Heinrich, but a degenerative discussion by people who aren't athletes, who ride horses who are less than athletes, and simply want to snipe at those who do.

My GP horse has nice ears too, but I never receive comments on them- only on his incredible movement (trained, not born) his beautiful physique, and his magnificent harmony- with me.

I assure you, Hans-Heinrich would be happy to coach me anytime, and when he last did, he got after me to get more fit by the way----which I did.

beeblebrox
Jul. 12, 2011, 10:28 AM
"I was just told about a study that was done in the US regarding the current generation (20-year olds), and it seems that they are not able to take criticism well at all. "

I have been teaching for just over 20 years and most teens have run the same course with small fluctuations between individuals. However the 89-91 models have been more persnickety and entitled and I have no idea why. Sure sure in every group or year there is the golden child, the rebel and so on and so forth but we are talking gang up lord of the flies bull crap when they don't achieve what they want, told NO, or received constructive criticism. I figured heck I have watch generation after generation be affected by hormones just after 12 and most settle as they move on to college with the attitude but I have watched with interest as a couple of these years kids remain indignant, entitled and blame everyone from trainer, parents and circumstance for the lack of skill, progress, etc.

carolprudm
Jul. 12, 2011, 10:42 AM
Way Way WAY below average.

I just love the criticism directed at me from people who have never in their lives even SAT on a GP horse- would no doubt be frightened out of their "nice grounded feeling" for sure- much less breed, break and train one.

This is certainly not a discussion of standards- nor expectations- nor any of the things which I so admired about Hans-Heinrich, but a degenerative discussion by people who aren't athletes, who ride horses who are less than athletes, and simply want to snipe at those who do.

My GP horse has nice ears too, but I never receive comments on them- only on his incredible movement (trained, not born) his beautiful physique, and his magnificent harmony- with me.

I assure you, Hans-Heinrich would be happy to coach me anytime, and when he last did, he got after me to get more fit by the way----which I did.
Actually I see most of the sniping being done by certain upper level riders and breeders.

Paula has been unfailingly gracious while you and Siegi should be ashamed of yourselves, despite your achievements

siegi b.
Jul. 12, 2011, 10:59 AM
Way Way WAY below average.

I just love the criticism directed at me from people who have never in their lives even SAT on a GP horse- would no doubt be frightened out of their "nice grounded feeling" for sure- much less breed, break and train one.

This is certainly not a discussion of standards- nor expectations- nor any of the things which I so admired about Hans-Heinrich, but a degenerative discussion by people who aren't athletes, who ride horses who are less than athletes, and simply want to snipe at those who do.

My GP horse has nice ears too, but I never receive comments on them- only on his incredible movement (trained, not born) his beautiful physique, and his magnificent harmony- with me.

I assure you, Hans-Heinrich would be happy to coach me anytime, and when he last did, he got after me to get more fit by the way----which I did.

Thank you for the sanity, HSS!

BTW, meupatdoes..... here's the definition of "arbitrary"
ar·bi·trar·y/ˈärbiˌtrerē/Adjective

1. Based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.

ToN Farm
Jul. 12, 2011, 11:05 AM
Thank you for the sanity, HSS! I'm siding with Siegi and HSS. The dressage boards on all sites have been taken over by non-athletic riders on non-athletic horses. It's an 'every horse can do dressage' mentality and a complete lack of understanding of what it takes to even produce a good First Level test. Why do some of us even visit the boards? That is the question. Maybe we just like to annoy ourselves.

meupatdoes
Jul. 12, 2011, 11:16 AM
Thank you for the sanity, HSS!

BTW, meupatdoes..... here's the definition of "arbitrary"
ar·bi·trar·y/ˈärbiˌtrerç/Adjective

1. Based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.

Yeah, and randomly we chose to value certain gaits over others, and then established a system to further develop those arbitrarily chosen attributes.

If you were born in Texas you may well have grown up valuing the attributes that reiners value instead and following that system.

With respect to the horse, who doesn't know reining from dressage from trailriding, it is completely arbitrary. He just knows he is doing what is asked of him to his ability.

For some reason you seem really resistant to the idea that horses deserve respect and a kind word no matter what people choose to value in their competitions. You seem quite bent on preserving your "right" to rip down any horse you please, and to dole out or withold your basic respect and kindness for individual horses by what scores you think they might get in the dressage arena. Again, no one is asking you to hail each horse as the next Olympic contender, but just to show them all BASIC RESPECT.

Refusing to RIP DOWN a horse as a means of taking a shot at its new owner is very different from claiming that any horse can do upper level dressage or score high at the lower levels. Having a pat and a kind word for a horse does not necessarily mean you think it is capable of a 70%. Conversely a horse who won't get a 70% does not need to be ripped down just to prove to the world you know what a 70% horse looks like. BASIC RESPECT is not score-dependent. It is horsemanship-dependent.

But hey, if that is how you want to go about vigorously and repeatedly presenting your horsemanship to the world, ...you are the one painting the colors on your flag, not anyone else.

netg
Jul. 12, 2011, 11:21 AM
meupatdoes - you can lose respect all you want, but you can't deny reality. One of the many things you learn after 25+ years of breeding horses for the sport is what makes a dressage prospect.


And yet, your 25+ years hasn't taught you a thing about customer service.

I currently have a horse who is obviously capable of the Grand Prix movements, as he does them for fun on his own. I will be our limiting factor. He would not likely be a 70s horse at that level with the best rider in the world, but can do it. That being the case, I'm starting from a point of lacking fitness (especially after being bed-bound for most of two months) but I fully acknowledge I HAVE to lose weight and get more fit before I can possibly reach that goal. However, this in no way an indicator that those who wish to use dressage for their own enjoyment and to enhance their relationship with their horse are required to meet the same standards I require of myself.

I plan on buying myself a very nice horse once I can show myself through work with my horse and work on schoolmasters with GP trainers, in clinics with bigger names, etc., that I will be able to do that horse justice. I plan on buying one in the price range I assume Siegi's fit. However, I do not plan on ever doing business with someone who has so little respect for people and horses. No, my horse and I aren't being attacked here. But someone who did not look for critiques is being attacked, and being attacked in a rather vicious manner, just for the heck of it.

As for the original topic - I think he's unnecessarily rude and harsh. But it's his program - he can take whoever he wants, I suppose. And at the level he's looking, the amount of fitness needed is going to be extremely rare in anyone who isn't slender.

Donella
Jul. 12, 2011, 11:45 AM
Last time I checked this was the "Dressage" forum, not the "Let's all Congratulate Ourselves for Being so Below Average" Forum!

I don't think many people here ride dressage (despite what they may think).


It's just unbelievable to me that someone can get SOOOO offended by this guys comments and take this so personally. Are you really THAT insecure about yourself?

Honestly though, if you can't take "harshness" and criticism you will never make it in this sport.

And yet, your 25+ years hasn't taught you a thing about customer service.

Unless I am confused, Paula is not a customer of Siegi's?

quietann
Jul. 12, 2011, 11:59 AM
And yet, your 25+ years hasn't taught you a thing about customer service.

Unless I am confused, Paula is not a customer of Siegi's?

I think the issue is that Siegi's treatment of Paula online makes netg not want to ever be Siegi's customer. I agree with netg on this. (Not that I ever would be Siegi's customer, anyway, given my riding level and preference for small horses, well, um, OK, Morgans and Morgans only :)

dragonharte8
Jul. 12, 2011, 12:02 PM
When somebody tells you that they have PSG on their radar and then gives you a link to a horse that will never in his life get even close to that

This is the kind of statements that cause the conflicts here on COTH. What makes each of us such an expert on equine anatomy and equine heart that we can make such statements?
We seem to forget that horses really do dressage on their own, though not to GP level. So what is the impedement to GP dressage, simply put it is the rider.

Donella
Jul. 12, 2011, 12:15 PM
I think the issue is that Siegi's treatment of Paula online makes netg not want to ever be Siegi's customer. I agree with netg on this. (Not that I ever would be Siegi's customer, anyway, given my riding level and preference for small horses, well, um, OK, Morgans and Morgans only

Being PC to everyone has nothing to do whatsoever with breeding top horses (which she has done). I don't think she has much to worry about.

I don't know how this thread turned into one about breed suitability, but again, what is so offensive here?? If you love your horse then what is the problem? I could care less if someone else doesn't like the Friesian I ride. So what???! Did you buy him for you or not?

carolprudm
Jul. 12, 2011, 12:16 PM
I don't know how this post turned into a breed thread though?
It took a bad turn at #124 and went steadily downhill after #135

meupatdoes
Jul. 12, 2011, 12:18 PM
But that doesn't mean all horses will excell in the FEI ring. I don't know how this post turned into a breed thread though?

Who on here is claiming that all horses will excel in the FEI ring???? NO ONE.

And it turned into a breed thread when Siegi randomly ridiculed another poster's horse they just bought which was being discussed in a completely different thread.

Maybe you don't find gratuitous ridicule of other people's horses offensive, but I do. At the very minimum, the horses deserve better, FEI prospects or no.

Lost_at_C
Jul. 12, 2011, 12:29 PM
No, actually it took a bad turn much earlier when Paula and others insisted on turning it into a thread about the supposed victimization of overweight riders. It was doomed from the very first page.... and now we've degenerated further, apparently discussing who is MOST wrong. :eek: Can no one make this thread die?????

Cupcake
Jul. 12, 2011, 12:36 PM
I think you guys are confused. You should realize that probably 90% of dressage riders are doing this sport as a hobby, to have fun.
So what you are dong in effect, is to make yourselves look like dummies in front of most of the people that follow the sport, and make them feel unworthy for even trying something out.
Most people who do dressage do it for themselves and their horse, not to ride Grand Prix.
These people that you are insulting can be potential clients and students, but instead you are turning them away by behaving like wretches. I can tell you that if a client comes to me saying "look, nice horse for sale at Stall Europa" I will say "no, let's pass on that one". You guys also don't realize that without the unwashed masses you will be alone in "your" sport, with no fans and admirers of your rides and your horses.

You don't see Steffen Peters getting on here and spouting off like an idiot....because if he said that things you guys do all his sponsors would probably go "poof"

Of course in order to compete at a high level, one has to be driven etc etc. And most people do not have that drive. This is VERY NORMAL. This is why there is such a thing as an AVERAGE. If everyone was above average, then everyone who rides a bike would be riding in Tour de France. It's just not possible, or probable

So get off your high horses, and go show, or go breed something instead of sitting here on the forums.

netg
Jul. 12, 2011, 01:02 PM
Being PC to everyone has nothing to do whatsoever with breeding top horses (which she has done). I don't think she has much to worry about.

I don't know how this thread turned into one about breed suitability, but again, what is so offensive here?? If you love your horse then what is the problem? I could care less if someone else doesn't like the Friesian I ride. So what???! Did you buy him for you or not?

The attack of someone who posted a horse in excitement on an entirely different thread was unnecessary.

I tend to be of the opinion demanding fitness and lack of extra weight for riders trying to be at the top is perfectly ok. But I also am of the opinion there is no reason to show your a-hole to a full board of people trying to insult hobbyists who aren't trying to become top international riders.

Siegi has bred some mighty nice horses- but so have other people. I do not go looking for someone's moral fiber to judge them; however, when someone insists upon making sure the world knows just what kind of person she is, it makes it easy for me to avoid buying horses for her. I am only one of probably many prospective customers reading those posts and being turned off by Siegi's attitude who will look elsewhere.

Cupcake
Jul. 12, 2011, 01:07 PM
I think the issue is that Siegi's treatment of Paula online makes netg not want to ever be Siegi's customer. I agree with netg on this. (Not that I ever would be Siegi's customer, anyway, given my riding level and preference for small horses, well, um, OK, Morgans and Morgans only

Being PC to everyone has nothing to do whatsoever with breeding top horses (which she has done). I don't think she has much to worry about.

I don't know how this thread turned into one about breed suitability, but again, what is so offensive here?? If you love your horse then what is the problem? I could care less if someone else doesn't like the Friesian I ride. So what???! Did you buy him for you or not?

Actually according to the database, she has bred ONE horse who competes at PSG...so I suppose that breeding TOP horses is a relative term.

InWhyCee Redux
Jul. 12, 2011, 01:16 PM
What a completely dick move to directly make fun of somebody's HORSE.

Completely uncalled for from both a horsemanship and sportsmanship perspective. You DO NOT dismiss the value of the creatures who, regardless of how fancy they are or aren't, give us this sport and allow us to do it by putting their heart and willingness into the work.

I would be MUCH more likely to pull a student off a horse for letting fly with a comment like that than being a few pounds overweight. Such blatant disrespect for a horse (ANY horse) would be simply unacceptable in my program.

I am losing respect for one COTHer after the other on this thread.

Insult me all you want, but if you were to insult and of my lesson horses — all of whom are adorable, BTW, even the scowling Dutchman — I might have to *****-slap you. :mad:

PS: Paulaedwina, your new gelding is a hunk, and I'll bet he can thunder over the jumps, too. Maybe he'll thunder over some snippy DQs on the way? ;) :lol:

InWhyCee Redux
Jul. 12, 2011, 01:24 PM
Way Way WAY below average.

I just love the criticism directed at me from people who have never in their lives even SAT on a GP horse- would no doubt be frightened out of their "nice grounded feeling" for sure- much less breed, break and train one.

This is certainly not a discussion of standards- nor expectations- nor any of the things which I so admired about Hans-Heinrich, but a degenerative discussion by people who aren't athletes, who ride horses who are less than athletes, and simply want to snipe at those who do.

My GP horse has nice ears too, but I never receive comments on them- only on his incredible movement (trained, not born) his beautiful physique, and his magnificent harmony- with me.

I assure you, Hans-Heinrich would be happy to coach me anytime, and when he last did, he got after me to get more fit by the way----which I did.

Aren't we special. You and Sigei really need to start your own Forum for REAL dressage riders, followed by a movement to abolish all testing below the PSG level.

From Encyclopædia Britannica —

Dressage (French: “training”) Systematic and progressive training of riding horses to execute precisely any of a wide range of maneuvers, from the simplest riding gaits to the most intricate and difficult airs and figures of haute école (“high school”).

Dressage achieves balance, suppleness, and obedience with the purpose of improving and facilitating the horse’s performance of normal tasks.

If the advanced training stage is reached, dressage may become an objective in itself.

Donella
Jul. 12, 2011, 01:48 PM
I agree, most of us aren't trying to become Olympians. So why does one of these people take personally a comment that was directed at people who ARE aiming to become Olympians? If you don't fit that bill, then why take his comment so personally ?

Cupcake
Jul. 12, 2011, 01:49 PM
Aren't we special. You and Sigei really need to start your own Forum for REAL dressage riders, followed by a movement to abolish all testing below the PSG level.



no no, according to centerline.com Siegi doesn't really ride (at least at recognized shows). Since 1992 she showed once in two classes four years ago.

That web site is VERY useful.

Donella
Jul. 12, 2011, 01:54 PM
no no, according to centerline.com Siegi doesn't really ride (at least at recognized shows). Since 1992 she showed once in two classes four years ago.

Was she claiming to be a top rider or something? I missed that part. From what I gather, she claims to breed warmbloods for the sport and she claims to understand the requirements of that sport....both of which she does well.

Cupcake
Jul. 12, 2011, 01:56 PM
I agree, most of us aren't trying to become Olympians. So why does one of these people take personally a comment that was directed at people who ARE aiming to become Olympians? If you don't fit that bill, then why take his comment so personally as Paula has?

I actually agree with that 100%, about rider fitness at high levels. I know how hard these folks work.

I just don't like the "low blow" comments from people who are apparently at the top of their game. Like "everytime I look at my groom I wanna puke". or "trust me, with that horse you will be grounded. There is nothing PC about that, it's just nasty.

mishmash
Jul. 12, 2011, 01:57 PM
:lol::lol: Good one. And good post HSS.

Probably belongs on the current multi-page fatty thread, but every time I go to the super market, all I see is overweight teens with low rider shorts with fat hanging over the middle. More often than not, when I see a group shot of a college equestrian team, or even a group of FEI young riders, I see some that are overweight and clearly on their way to obese adults. Aside from being fit for riding, don't women care what they look like anymore? Is vanity a lost thing?

I hope so, ToN. I hope very much so. Have you not read the rest of this thread. It is all about the vanity...
Thank God for parents that taught me to be humble and appreciate and work for what I have. And shame on that man for valuing appearance above all else. Don't care how much he knows, how good of a rider or trainer he is. It is that attitude that will destroy this sport. Being knowledgeable and being a decent human being are not mutually exclusive.

Cupcake
Jul. 12, 2011, 02:08 PM
no no, according to centerline.com Siegi doesn't really ride (at least at recognized shows). Since 1992 she showed once in two classes four years ago.

Was she claiming to be a top rider or something? I missed that part. From what I gather, she claims to breed warmbloods for the sport and she claims to understand the requirements of that sport....both of which she does well.

No she wasn't. My response is aimed at a comment above yours.

But, I do think that ripping a horse on public forums is a strange business practice. When I look for a breeder the first thing I do is do a web search.....and if this crap popped up, I would be running quickly the other way.

Also, who the heck wants to ride with a person who clearly finds her staff disgusting.....If I was her client I would be afraid of what she is saying about me that I don't know about.

Common sense apparently has nothing to do with riding well or breeding decent horses.

TickleFight
Jul. 12, 2011, 02:09 PM
We seem to forget that horses really do dressage on their own, though not to GP level. So what is the impedement to GP dressage, simply put it is the rider.

I disagree. While it's true that many- probably most- riders are an impediment to their horse, it is also true that most horses are incapable of competing at Grand Prix. This doesn't make them "bad" or "worthless," but to pretend that a horse has something it lacks is silly. Just as it is silly for a hobbyist to compare herself to a professional.

I think that is the issue some members have less than tactfully been trying to point out. The vast majority of horses and riders never make it beyond second level, let alone to the FEI, yet many amateurs seem to take offense over issues that only affect the elite. Professionals in any venue deal with pressures and difficulties the rest of us hobbyists can ignore... so why pretend that they affect you too? They don't.

I'll go back to my sports analogy. Not everybody can make the high school basketball team, let alone play in college or professionally. We do not live in a world where everybody can be the best at everything, usually most people are marginal talents and can only aspire to mediocrity.

carolprudm
Jul. 12, 2011, 02:17 PM
I think the issue is that Siegi's treatment of Paula online makes netg not want to ever be Siegi's customer. I agree with netg on this. (Not that I ever would be Siegi's customer, anyway, given my riding level and preference for small horses, well, um, OK, Morgans and Morgans only

Being PC to everyone has nothing to do whatsoever with breeding top horses (which she has done). I don't think she has much to worry about.

I don't know how this thread turned into one about breed suitability, but again, what is so offensive here?? If you love your horse then what is the problem? I could care less if someone else doesn't like the Friesian I ride. So what???! Did you buy him for you or not?
It's not about PC or nor PC. Posts 124 and 135 are flat out rude, nasty and indeed very personally directed at one specific person who, IMHO, has shown a whole lot more class than Siegi, HSS and ToN.

They demean the sport they profess to hold to such high standards. They should be ashamed of themselves.

AlterBy
Jul. 12, 2011, 02:53 PM
It's not about PC or nor PC. Posts 124 and 135 are flat out rude, nasty and indeed very personally directed at one specific person who, IMHO, has shown a whole lot more class than Siegi, HSS and ToN.

They demean the sport they profess to hold to such high standards. They should be ashamed of themselves.

They were personally directed because that specific person made that thread (and some others as well) all about herself and her new acquisition.

Some people just like whining and put themselves in a position that will keep them whining for good.

The little 'fat' girl in the story here is not Paula. It is a young rider with aspiring Olympic goals. And if she wants to 'fit' in the program one day well, she knows what she has to do!

There has to be high standards. The highest the best!

Here is an exemple, I know one person (adult mid 40) who was asked to leave the dressage ring in the middle of his PSG test by the judge at a big FEI show.
She wasn't off course. He was just a really really bad rider who has nothing to do in this competition at that level, flopping around and being quite all over the place. The judge rang the bell, stood up and told the rider : You are wasting my time, get out of my ring.
This rider bought a fantastic Inter horse but struggle to do 2nd level... But keeps doing PSG/Inter with Kur and all at the shows...get like 45% average max...WTH???

I believe the judge did the right thing. This person doesn't want to face the thruth about what this sport is all about.

carolprudm
Jul. 12, 2011, 03:09 PM
They were personally directed because that specific person made that thread (and some others as well) all about herself and her new acquisition.

.

A quick check in this thread did not show Paula mentioning her new horse at all. Can you cite the post? Her participation in this thread had mostly centered around her experiences as a rider and EDUCATOR dealing with people of about the same age as the person mentioned in the original post.

She started a new thread about her new horse. There was certainly NO reason for Siegi to mention it in this thread other than for Seigi to use it as an opportunity for a very cheap shot (not that it would have been better in the new horse thread)

MyssMyst
Jul. 12, 2011, 03:17 PM
I see people complain all the time about how dressage is boring, no one wants to watch, no one realizes how hard it is, etc. Why the hell do I want anything to do with a sport where I'm going to be mocked for being me? Am I working on getting fit/losing the weight? Yes. However, it won't be an overnight process, and you can bet that I'm going to be discouraged at times. I'm sure once I lose the weight, the dressage queens will find something else wrong with me. I have seen enough threads on weight/athleticism, and more displays of people looking down on each other for their lack of acheivements, that I'm rapidly deciding that dressage isn't a sport I remotely want to be involved in. I will take what little talent I have, and do something else. I want to be a part of a sport where I'm encouraged, not where I have to worry about what someone thinks about my post-baby stomach while I'm wiping their boots.

My aversion to dressage has little to do with the sport itself. It fascinates me, and I could happily watch dressage rides for hours just to learn. I wanted to work my butt off to hit second level, and see where I could go past that. However, it's not worth being around people who look down on me without seeing the effort I'm willing to put in. Recognize what I do, and I guarantee you will get more from me. Why bother to put in the effort, when all I'm going to hear is, "Your horse sucks" or "Unlike you, I've ridden Grand Prix"?

paulaedwina
Jul. 12, 2011, 03:22 PM
Wow - alot has happened here while I was teaching my bio lab.

I don't even know what to say.

1. Seigi, after careful consideration of your kind words, Ed (soon to be Fella) and I have decided to part ways. I'm returning him to the seller and I won't ever darken the dressage doors ever again.....Okay, no not really.

Fella is a beautiful, kind, stable, athletic, game-for-most-things, fun horse. He has never been trained in dressage. I think he'll train up fine and he'll probably enjoy it for a few reasons; he's kind, stable, and athletic, and he is surrounded by kind, stable people. Can he cut it? Well he has 4 legs, he is sound, and did I already say he is kind, stable and athletic? We're both game for the journey. Maybe we'll run into you some time?

And while he's learning those new skills he's the kind of horse I can grab mane and swing a leg over bareback and go tearing down to the creek just for the heck of it. He's the kind of horse I can trail through Michaux state forest up here in rural PA. Why? Because he's kind, stable, athletic, and game-for-most things.

I don't even understand the purpose of these mean remarks? Do you expect I'm going to give the horse back and then come to you for your kind counsel on the horse I should get? Or are you just being a mean person hiding behind the anonymity of the internet? Are you this awful to people in real life, to their faces?

2. It's interesting the kinds of people I've encountered online and in the real world in dressage. I've met professionals who take time out of their busy schedules to give words of advice and encouragement. They outnumber the other type; the ones who you look at askance and wonder if they're just having a bad day and it came out all over you. You hope that they're just having a bad day and that they are not usually just nasty for no darned reason. But like I said; the wonderful outnumber the odd by great numbers. I just worry that some impressionable type would run into the latter and think that this person speaks for all of us in the sport. I for one, treasure the former - those who find time to bring novices and beginners along. I hope to be that kind of person, not the other.

3. Never fear. You have not colored my impression of COTH. I have learned so much here and will keep learning so much here. And the support this unknown poster has received in light of your venom is heartwarming.


ETA RE: A quick check in this thread did not show Paula mentioning her new horse at all. Can you cite the post? Her participation in this thread had mostly centered around her experiences as a rider and EDUCATOR dealing with people of about the same age as the person mentioned in the original post.

You are right. I never mentioned the new horse here at all. It seems the poster went looking and found my other thread about my new horse and thought it appropriate to shred it in this thread.



Thank you.
Paula (currently owned by Fella)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/52967336@N00/5917819785/ (because it is good to laugh)

Arizona DQ
Jul. 12, 2011, 04:11 PM
Paula, You are a Class Act!!!! I wish you much luck and happiness with Fella!!!

People like you and I are the ones who keep this sport going. Only a few make it to the FEI levels and they certainly deserve it with all their hard work and dedication. But the rest of us are the ones who keep the trainers and instructors in business, not the mention buy the horses who do not command the 5-6 figure prices, but who deserve loving homes. We are the ones who pay the money to WATCH the dressage competition at the high levels and we are the ones who will support the push to get more TV coverage, support the many magazines, tack shops, etc. If us "lowly" riders were not around to support this sport, it would be hard pressed to survive......

It is unfortunate that there are a "few" elitists on here who need to shoot us all down to make themselves feel good. :no:

The true professionals in this sport are a lot more gratious and understanding. They do not feel the need to pump thermselves up on the backs of others who are not as dedicated, talented or driven....

We are lucky to have such "lass act"people who are willing to work with us, people like Jane Savoie, who encourages all types of people with all types of horses!!!

So Paula, you with your big guy and me with my little arab will continue to be the back bone of this sport in spite of being not good enough to wipe the boots of some others......;);)

mp
Jul. 12, 2011, 04:48 PM
I agree, most of us aren't trying to become Olympians. So why does one of these people take personally a comment that was directed at people who ARE aiming to become Olympians? If you don't fit that bill, then why take his comment so personally ?

I really don't know. I'm a dedicated TL-1st rider (which means I don't really ride dressage, eh? ;)). So what HHMzS does or says doesn't affect me at all. I don't inhabit that rarefied air. I'm just in this thing to learn how to ride better.

But even from my lowly perch, I find the GP aspirations of some to be, well, truly aspirational. It reminds me of when an acquaintance asked me if I thought her horse could do dressage. Nothing too difficult -- just up to 4th or so. This from a woman who not only had never competed, she'd never ridden a dressage test or even taken a lesson. I asked her how she decided on 4th as her goal -- she looked at the tests online and they didn't look that hard. All righty, then! 4th Level it is!

On the flip side of the "dressage for one and all" coin, I found the juxtaposition of these statements to be ... ummm ... ironic


I could care less about how big your collective butts are or why they're big tracking around at 1st level anywhere.
and

If I'm going to have my country represented by an athlete, I'd like that athlete to act like Lindsey Vonn and Maria Reisch. Class acts all the way! Truly inspirational athletes who are easy to idolize- because they are polite, even tempered


When I look around the dressage sports world, can't find anyone whom I see acting quite so professionally

No .... REALLY???!??!? :lol:

Lost_at_C
Jul. 12, 2011, 05:07 PM
Allow me to recap a few salient points if I may:

1) A wide variety of posters join in on a thread about the training of elite performance athletes. So far so good.

2) Some posters then embark on a campaign of comments related only to Rider Weight, singling out a single translated sentence from the lengthy article that was posted for discussion. Along the way several of them accuse the respected trainer in the interview of being a Very Bad Person, at one point even wishing a thyroid disease upon him, without actually knowing this individual or considering the worth of his statements overall.

3) Further harsh comments and criticisms are levelled at other posters, including searches of COTH posting history and citations of internet dressage databases - as though that provides an accurate picture of experience, qualifications or ability.

3) These same posters then cry foul when people aim overly harsh words back at them, or point out the possible difference between their experience of fitness requirements and those of more advanced riders - never mind the fact that some posters were simply trying to get back to the topic at hand instead of discussing affinities for big butts and their aptitude for dressage. This is not nearly as amusing as some of you seem to find it.

I'll grant you that some of the comments about inexperienced riders and their horses were a bit near the mark, but I have to say I share in the frustration that I believe led to them. Furthermore, Paula, you were the first one to pick on Seigi - you repeatedly posted about her one mention of a documentary/study and tried to pose as some kind of scientific authority who must know better.... so your attitude of victimhood is an interesting choice.

I'll also grant you that lower level riders are the foundation of USDF membership, show entries, etc, but that does not give anyone the authority to center all discussions on their own goals and experiences and suggest that those who discuss higher levels of athleticism are somehow maligning the less ambitious. Attitudes of egalitarianism have to be deployed in both directions. I think some of you could benefit from simply listening a bit more.

carolprudm
Jul. 12, 2011, 05:26 PM
Allow me to recap a few salient points if I may:

1) A wide variety of posters join in on a thread about the training of elite performance athletes. So far so good.

2) Some posters then embark on a campaign of comments related only to Rider Weight, singling out a single translated sentence from the lengthy article that was posted for discussion. Along the way several of them accuse the respected trainer in the interview of being a Very Bad Person, at one point even wishing a thyroid disease upon him, without actually knowing this individual or considering the worth of his statements overall.

3) Further harsh comments and criticisms are levelled at other posters, including searches of COTH posting history and citations of internet dressage databases - as though that provides an accurate picture of experience, qualifications or ability.

3) These same posters then cry foul when people aim overly harsh words back at them, or point out the possible difference between their experience of fitness requirements and those of more advanced riders - never mind the fact that some posters were simply trying to get back to the topic at hand instead of discussing affinities for big butts and their aptitude for dressage. This is not nearly as amusing as some of you seem to find it.

I'll grant you that some of the comments about inexperienced riders and their horses were a bit near the mark, but I have to say I share in the frustration that I believe led to them. Furthermore, Paula, you were the first one to pick on Seigi - you repeatedly posted about her one mention of a documentary/study and tried to pose as some kind of scientific authority who must know better.... so your attitude of victimhood is an interesting choice.

I'll also grant you that lower level riders are the foundation of USDF membership, show entries, etc, but that does not give anyone the authority to center all discussions on their own goals and experiences and suggest that those who discuss higher levels of athleticism are somehow maligning the less ambitious. Attitudes of egalitarianism have to be deployed in both directions. I think some of you could benefit from simply listening a bit more.
Actually the thyroid disease was wished upon HSS who said her fat groom disgusted her see post 103

paulaedwina
Jul. 12, 2011, 06:24 PM
RE: Paula, you were the first one to pick on Seigi - you repeatedly posted about her one mention of a documentary/study and tried to pose as some kind of scientific authority who must know better....

I had no idea I was picking on her. That was not my intention at all. I apologize for the effect of my post. I had no idea from the responses that I had offended her, and would not have made the connection between that exchange and this drive by shooting.

Paula

Cupcake
Jul. 12, 2011, 08:20 PM
Actually the thyroid disease was wished upon HSS who said her fat groom disgusted her see post 103

LOL, and wasn't she spouting about how horrible a local rider looks because she gained weight thanks to a thyroid condition.

Also, I believe that I didn't throw the database search until very late in the game.....so maybe that should be number 4 in the bulleted list (there are actually two threes). And yes, I do think that a list of show results going back 20 almost years could be directly correlated to someone's knowledge and ability to compete in dressage.

Also, if the OP only wanted elite "top of their game" riders posting on this thread....then the discussion would have been very brief.

But still, it boggles my mind why people who are obviously in the business of horses and particularly dressage, would get in an online pissing contest. I honestly think that the elite of the sport should be held to a higher standard, and not only where weight is concerned.

siegi b.
Jul. 12, 2011, 08:29 PM
Here is what Paula said on various and asunder threads - the first two from her "coming out of the closet" thread and the rest from the "No Success without Effort" one.... Judge for yourself.... :)

"I've trying to reconcile my desires - PSG -with my attraction to drafts."

"Ahhh: it feels so good to come out. I'm here, I like drafts for dressage, get use to it!"

"I took ballet (I was a twiggy child - I didn't get fat until I came to the States) and there was an old school White (significant to the discussion) teacher who was quite vocal about how unsuitable she found black girls for ballet. Why? She thought our backsides were too big and just didn't look right. I guess she was entitled to her opinion. Too bad she damaged so many girls' ambitions and feelings of worth."

"You know, I'd rather be fat than nasty."

"BTW the weight gain for new immigrants is a well documented phenomenon. We come over here and fall in love with large portions, refined foods, and are less active (sedentary)."

"I don't even understand why you guys are so evil. I never said I was a victim. I never asked for pity. I was merely relating a story of how I got to be the size I was. Please go into my posts and find where I came to you cap in hand begging your approval? I'm no victim, not even of mean, nasty people who feel empowered by the anonymity of the internet.

You nasty folk are acting like a bunch of ass biters - you know; the kind of shy sharp dogs that lack the courage to attack unless your back is turned?"

"Oh they're going to see my fat ass, MsWillie. I'm going to be out there doing first level. Look for the shining beacon that is my large black behind in the ring.

Wait for it.
It's coming.
Can't miss it."

........ and so on, and so on......

So now I want somebody to tell me that Paula was conducting a factual and serious discussion, especially regarding the "No Success without Effort" thread. Anybody??? :lol:

DutchDressageQueen
Jul. 12, 2011, 08:50 PM
Allow me to recap a few salient points if I may:

1) A wide variety of posters join in on a thread about the training of elite performance athletes. So far so good.

2) Some posters then embark on a campaign of comments related only to Rider Weight, singling out a single translated sentence from the lengthy article that was posted for discussion. Along the way several of them accuse the respected trainer in the interview of being a Very Bad Person, at one point even wishing a thyroid disease upon him, without actually knowing this individual or considering the worth of his statements overall.

3) Further harsh comments and criticisms are levelled at other posters, including searches of COTH posting history and citations of internet dressage databases - as though that provides an accurate picture of experience, qualifications or ability.

3) These same posters then cry foul when people aim overly harsh words back at them, or point out the possible difference between their experience of fitness requirements and those of more advanced riders - never mind the fact that some posters were simply trying to get back to the topic at hand instead of discussing affinities for big butts and their aptitude for dressage. This is not nearly as amusing as some of you seem to find it.

I'll grant you that some of the comments about inexperienced riders and their horses were a bit near the mark, but I have to say I share in the frustration that I believe led to them. Furthermore, Paula, you were the first one to pick on Seigi - you repeatedly posted about her one mention of a documentary/study and tried to pose as some kind of scientific authority who must know better.... so your attitude of victimhood is an interesting choice.

I'll also grant you that lower level riders are the foundation of USDF membership, show entries, etc, but that does not give anyone the authority to center all discussions on their own goals and experiences and suggest that those who discuss higher levels of athleticism are somehow maligning the less ambitious. Attitudes of egalitarianism have to be deployed in both directions. I think some of you could benefit from simply listening a bit more.

very good comment!:)

paulaedwina
Jul. 12, 2011, 09:44 PM
Seigi,

You worked very hard to track down all my posts, read them, and assemble that series of quotes. You are very dedicated to the task.

Paula

showidaho
Jul. 13, 2011, 11:43 AM
Paula - you can try all you want but your verbosity/prolixity is not going to get the heavy riders into the Olympics.

I had to laugh at your comment "When I ride a draft I feel rooted to the earth", especially after looking at the video of your latest love in horses. No doubt you will be rooted to the earth on that one.... :)

This comment, along with many of your subsequent comments, are utterly inappropriate and callous. I hope you realize that these opinions certainly shine a negative light on you, your business, and serve only to turn away potential customers. There is a difference between candor and ridicule. Candor will generally gain a person some respect, if not agreement. Ridicule will generally gain you the opposite effect. Perhaps a little forethought to your posts would go a long way.

InWhyCee Redux
Jul. 13, 2011, 05:51 PM
Seigi,

You worked very hard to track down all my posts, read them, and assemble that series of quotes. You are very dedicated to the task.

Paula

Someone has a lot of time on her (his) hands.

Bats79
Jul. 14, 2011, 09:54 AM
meupatdoes - you can lose respect all you want, but you can't deny reality. One of the many things you learn after 25+ years of breeding horses for the sport is what makes a dressage prospect.

Now we can all be sweet and nod our heads in constant agreement, or we can choose to learn. When somebody tells you that they have PSG on their radar and then gives you a link to a horse that will never in his life get even close to that, what do you want me to say? Oh, I love his big booty? Or I think he will make his rider feel grounded?? What the heck does that even mean?

Last time I checked this was the "Dressage" forum, not the "Let's all Congratulate Ourselves for Being so Below Average" Forum!


First of all, no one ASKED YOU for a critique of that horse.
Nobody made any claims it was going to be the next regional champ either; paulaedwina was simply excited that she found a horse that suited HER.
You do not just jump in to critique a horse randomly from the rail, and you certainly do not make comments at an innocent horse's expense to take pot shots at a horse's owner or prospective owner. You just. Don't.

Secondly, any true horseman knows that there is always something positive to be said about any horse. You can look at a horse generously or stingily. Maybe it moves like a cart horse and falls over itself in the legyield -and you know what? When it gives it a try and takes a stab you pet it and say, "Good boy!" When it obligingly trots around in a field with no bridle and a pleasant, willing expression on its face you rub it and pet it and say, "What a nice, sweet horse you are. Good boy!" That horse can turn around and whuffle in your hair in response to a kind word and pat just as well as any other.

A horse does not know whether he moves a 10 or a 3. He just knows that he went for a ride and did as he was asked, because somebody decided to pull him out and take him for a spin. You show respect for his willingness and good nature. Moving a 10 is additional icing, but the inherent character and generosity of a horse to do a job in our service deserves respect no matter what. You do not dismiss his work and what he offers simply because on some arbitrary human scale he doesn't move a 10.

And when another human offers that horse the positive respect and affection for that horse that EVERY horse deserves, you DO NOT rip the horse down to take a pot shot at the person. You DO NOT make fun of other people showing respect to and affection for a horse. You tell them, "Aw, man. You guys make such a nice pair. How nice that you have found each other." And you rub the horse's neck and give him a (sincerely) affectionate pat while you say it. Nobody is forcing you to ride it or hail it as the next Olympic gold medal prospect but at a minimum you still show it respect and kindness.

You show respect for the horse.
ANY horse.

Period.
End of story.

Ripping down a horse is the lowest of the low.
If you can not find something to like about every horse or at the very least show them all BASIC RESPECT then I really wonder why you are even in the business.

Well said. I can't be bothered engaging the sour voiced success junkies that put down other people who love DRESSAGE more than ribbons.

siegi b.
Jul. 14, 2011, 01:00 PM
Ok, now I'm laughing so hard I have tears in my eyes.... :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:!!!

Thank you Bats79 for calling me a "success junkie"! I know you probably didn't want me to but I absolutely love the label and couldn't agree with you more. I am and have always been a "success junkie"! And you know what? My parents raised me that way! :yes:

carolprudm
Jul. 14, 2011, 04:08 PM
Ok, now I'm laughing so hard I have tears in my eyes.... :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:!!!

Thank you Bats79 for calling me a "success junkie"! I know you probably didn't want me to but I absolutely love the label and couldn't agree with you more. I am and have always been a "success junkie"! And you know what? My parents raised me that way! :yes:
Pity they didn't teach you some class and basic manners while they were at it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Pp66FNd54M

siegi b.
Jul. 14, 2011, 06:17 PM
Oh, quit it already, Carol! You're just jealous that nobody ever calls you a success junkie! :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

carolprudm
Jul. 14, 2011, 06:30 PM
Oh, quit it already, Carol! You're just jealous that nobody ever calls you a success junkie! :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


And you know this.....how?

Bats79
Jul. 15, 2011, 06:51 AM
Thank you Bats79 for calling me a "success junkie"! I know you probably didn't want me to but I absolutely love the label and couldn't agree with you more. I am and have always been a "success junkie"! And you know what? My parents raised me that way! :yes:


It's the odd person who takes pride in an addiction, but it is better for the general public to know that you are so stuck on your version of success that you will ridicule and walk over anyone who gets in the way or disagrees. Good luck to you - as others have said - it's not like we will be at risk of purchasing one of your horses or riding with you.

WILLOW&CAL
Jul. 15, 2011, 07:27 AM
Siegi just taught us that you don't need class to breed class....It flies in the face of good 'breeding'

DutchDressageQueen
Jul. 15, 2011, 07:30 AM
But I know the good riders who work hard and support themselves the whole way know the value of what it is they are really doing. And I honestly believe that most people who know their salt recognize this.

:yes:

WILLOW&CAL
Jul. 15, 2011, 07:37 AM
And kudos to those who believe that dressage is for everybody. It's the belief by which this sport will survive.
After all there are only so many skinny,dedicated, connected, moneyed German kids around. Also one can only stand to see so many carbon-copies of leggy Dutch Warmbloods doing the same carbon-copied movement with the same old skinny girl riders on top.
If you are truly working at Olympics or just trying to get your amateur, small-time ass through the training scale, you have every right to be here and learn.

mortebella
Jul. 15, 2011, 07:58 AM
Only read the first couple of pages of this, so this point may have been made already, but it seems to me that if the kid who was "too fat" for the guy to take on the road was riding well enough to qualify for the championships, it's pretty hard to assert at that point that her weight was an issue in her riding effectiveness. And he WAS saying she didn't LOOK good. Well, ok. So at some point if you're going to step up and get super serious, lose the weight is his message. My problem is - how could he not know this whole situation was coming in time for her to actually DO that - i.e. lose weight? ???!!! Could he not see, a month or six weeks down the road, that she was about to qualify, and say, look sweetie, you've got x amount of days to shed the pounds, or your dear old trainer is not "taking those tonnes on the road" ??? It's his JOB to get her ready, right? With ALL that entails. Who says she WOULDN'T have made the effort to lose the fluff, if he'd put her on the regimen with some adequate prep time, and made it clear what hung in the balance, instead of just letting her qualify and then turning around and saying, "nope, you're not going 'cause you're too FAT." Maybe it didn't play out that way, but that's the way he presented it in the article, as if he were proud of doing it that way. Instead, it reflects horribly on HIS skills and HIS preparation of his client, imo. He talks about no success without effort - it looks like this young rider was putting her effort into her riding and WAS having success with it - until he capriciously turned around and prevented her from any further pursuit of it. If she needed to apply equal attention to her WEIGHT as well, it was his job to say so WELL before the midnight hour. I don't necessarily disagree with him that overweight riders need encouragement to lose weight, but to do this to a young rider who has put the work in to achieve something like this and then deny it to her, when he could have and SHOULD have done something beforehand, is SHAMEFUL.

meupatdoes
Jul. 15, 2011, 09:58 AM
Only read the first couple of pages of this, so this point may have been made already, but it seems to me that if the kid who was "too fat" for the guy to take on the road was riding well enough to qualify for the championships, it's pretty hard to assert at that point that her weight was an issue in her riding effectiveness. And he WAS saying she didn't LOOK good. Well, ok. So at some point if you're going to step up and get super serious, lose the weight is his message. My problem is - how could he not know this whole situation was coming in time for her to actually DO that - i.e. lose weight? ???!!! Could he not see, a month or six weeks down the road, that she was about to qualify, and say, look sweetie, you've got x amount of days to shed the pounds, or your dear old trainer is not "taking those tonnes on the road" ??? It's his JOB to get her ready, right? With ALL that entails. Who says she WOULDN'T have made the effort to lose the fluff, if he'd put her on the regimen with some adequate prep time, and made it clear what hung in the balance, instead of just letting her qualify and then turning around and saying, "nope, you're not going 'cause you're too FAT." Maybe it didn't play out that way, but that's the way he presented it in the article, as if he were proud of doing it that way. Instead, it reflects horribly on HIS skills and HIS preparation of his client, imo. He talks about no success without effort - it looks like this young rider was putting her effort into her riding and WAS having success with it - until he capriciously turned around and prevented her from any further pursuit of it. If she needed to apply equal attention to her WEIGHT as well, it was his job to say so WELL before the midnight hour. I don't necessarily disagree with him that overweight riders need encouragement to lose weight, but to do this to a young rider who has put the work in to achieve something like this and then deny it to her, when he could have and SHOULD have done something beforehand, is SHAMEFUL.

Let me see if I can guess.

Probably all of these lessons and trainings cost a pretty penny. So he was perfectly happy to stand there and take her parents' money even while running a less-than-generous internal dialogue. You know, the whole "mouth shut, palm open" deal. (People who claim to have successfully cliniced with him might keep in mind that for a healthy-enough check plenty of people can say nice things for an hour. After all I'm sure he would like to have another couple hundred dollars the next time he is in town.)

However when push came to shove and he was ACTUALLY going to have to stand by the ingate during her ride at a major show, then he balked. (If only she hadn't qualified, then he could sympathize with her on the near miss and we can try again with the check book open anew for next year.)

See?
Be nice at home and keep the checks flowing but eventually when people who 'matter' might see well now that's a different story.


Btw, don't disagree with stringent requirements for aspirants to a national team. But agree with mortebella that the way he presented his actions made it look like it was terrible coaching. Maybe he left out some details or was not fully quoted, but from the text as we have to go on I do agree it seemed very abrupt.

quietann
Jul. 15, 2011, 10:09 AM
mortebella and mpd, i think you have captured the essence of the situation, to the degree we outsiders can ever know what really happened. it makes me sad.

(sorry no caps, had hand surgery yesterday.)

WILLOW&CAL
Jul. 15, 2011, 10:24 AM
Unless you were actually present, you will not know the 'essence of the situation'. How do you know that he did not make it clear to the child and parents upfront? He may have prepared the kid for the eventuality that her weight would be a hindrance to her progress and the family and child refused to listen. We just don't know that. We can only work on assumptions here. He doesn't sound like the bunny-hugger-mince-your-words type so immediately he's the bad guy...not sure that is fair.

carolprudm
Jul. 15, 2011, 10:36 AM
Unless you were actually present, you will not know the 'essence of the situation'. How do you know that he did not make it clear to the child and parents upfront? He may have prepared the kid for the eventuality that her weight would be a hindrance to her progress and the family and child refused to listen. We just don't know that. We can only work on assumptions here. He doesn't sound like the bunny-hugger-mince-your-words type so immediately he's the bad guy...not sure that is fair.
I also wondered about the qualification process. If she qualified and the coach said she couldn't go did he take a skinnier rider who qualified but with lower scores? How much of the selection process was left up to the coach's discression?

TickleFight
Jul. 15, 2011, 11:09 AM
I also wondered about the qualification process. If she qualified and the coach said she couldn't go did he take a skinnier rider who qualified but with lower scores? How much of the selection process was left up to the coach's discression?

Based on your post it seems like you've never had to try-out for a competitive athletic team. Coaches are unconcerned about looks, they are concerned about results. Athletics is not a popularity contest or a beauty pageant. They are not going to kick a talented and hard working individual off the squad because they are homely. But they will kick you off for lack of dedication, for the inability to work with others, and for difficulty taking guidance from the coaching staff.

If this girl was in fact talented enough to qualify, well... it's only part of the requirement. Competing as a member of a team takes more than just that.

Instead of only criticizing the coach, you should also wonder what this girl wasn't willing to do that would warrant being kicked off. Like I said, homeliness has nothing to do with it.

carolprudm
Jul. 15, 2011, 11:43 AM
Based on your post it seems like you've never had to try-out for a competitive athletic team. Coaches are unconcerned about looks, they are concerned about results. Athletics is not a popularity contest or a beauty pageant. They are not going to kick a talented and hard working individual off the squad because they are homely. But they will kick you off for lack of dedication, for the inability to work with others, and for difficulty taking guidance from the coaching staff.

If this girl was in fact talented enough to qualify, well... it's only part of the requirement. Competing as a member of a team takes more than just that.

Instead of only criticizing the coach, you should also wonder what this girl wasn't willing to do that would warrant being kicked off. Like I said, homeliness has nothing to do with it.
Yes, and results in dressage competitions are quantified. Individual scores count. Someone comes in first and someone comes in fifth. If the coach decided #3 was to fat and took #5 instead that, IMHO would be wrong. And if there is a qualifying competition and #1 has a bad day she just might have to stay home. Wasn't there was a lawsuit about something similar in eventing?

It's not like basketball where there are no individual scores and results depend not only on individual tallent and skill but how well players work together.

Cupcake
Jul. 15, 2011, 11:55 AM
Based on your post it seems like you've never had to try-out for a competitive athletic team. Coaches are unconcerned about looks, they are concerned about results. Athletics is not a popularity contest or a beauty pageant. They are not going to kick a talented and hard working individual off the squad because they are homely. But they will kick you off for lack of dedication, for the inability to work with others, and for difficulty taking guidance from the coaching staff.

If this girl was in fact talented enough to qualify, well... it's only part of the requirement. Competing as a member of a team takes more than just that.

Instead of only criticizing the coach, you should also wonder what this girl wasn't willing to do that would warrant being kicked off. Like I said, homeliness has nothing to do with it.

The bottom line here is that we will probably never know.
Perhaps there were two riders of equal talent but one was skinny the other not. In which he picked the skinny one...which I believe 90% of people would do.

Also, he may not have worked with this rider on a regular basis, but as a national pony YR coach he had to pick a team out of say 20 qualified riders. It's his discretion, since he is the coach. I won't argue with that. Unfortunately at the top of the game it's very competitive, and it does sound like he had asked her to lose weight before the decision was made.

I still think that couple of posters on this thread have made big asses of themselves (no pun intended of course :-D

mp
Jul. 15, 2011, 11:59 AM
And kudos to those who believe that dressage is for everybody. It's the belief by which this sport will survive.
After all there are only so many skinny,dedicated, connected, moneyed German kids around. Also one can only stand to see so many carbon-copies of leggy Dutch Warmbloods doing the same carbon-copied movement with the same old skinny girl riders on top.

If you are truly working at Olympics or just trying to get your amateur, small-time ass through the training scale, you have every right to be here and learn.

:yes: Using the principles of dressage will benefit any horse and any rider. I truly believe that.

And if you want to compete at the lower levels (for me, the sub-sub basement of TL/First), you are supporting the sport with your $$$ and that's to the benefit of all levels.

When people ask me why dressage, I've always said I want to learn how to ride better. But now I'm going to say I'm just trying to get my amateur, small-time ass through the training scale. :lol:

Thanks for the turn of phrase, willow&cal.

cnm161
Jul. 15, 2011, 12:05 PM
Do we know the girl in question was #3? How do we know she wasn't, for example, #5? Not enough facts, way too much speculation.

There are all sorts of reasons that a rider may be precluded from a team (yes, team)
- Lower scores at larger events
- History of flakiness/unreliability
- Lower average than other qualified riders
- Non-competitive mount for the desired level
- Attitude
- History of lameness issues in mount (apparent at the jog)
- Lack of funding
- etc., etc.

So yes, while it would feel unfair if the rider in question boasted an average that was much much higher than the rest of the qualified riders and was still left at home, I doubt that's the case here. And that's the point that a lot of people are attempting to make: I bet it's more than just the weight.

carolprudm
Jul. 15, 2011, 02:01 PM
Do we know the girl in question was #3? How do we know she wasn't, for example, #5? Not enough facts, way too much speculation.

There are all sorts of reasons that a rider may be precluded from a team (yes, team)
- Lower scores at larger events
- History of flakiness/unreliability
- Lower average than other qualified riders
- Non-competitive mount for the desired level
- Attitude
- History of lameness issues in mount (apparent at the jog)
- Lack of funding
- etc., etc.

So yes, while it would feel unfair if the rider in question boasted an average that was much much higher than the rest of the qualified riders and was still left at home, I doubt that's the case here. And that's the point that a lot of people are attempting to make: I bet it's more than just the weight.

Right, we don't know the details.

However
http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2011/05/27/german-youth-riders-selected-second-german-selection-trial-wiesbaden


Based on recent performances at the 2011 Preis der Besten, the German Equestrian Federation nominated the pony, junior and young riders who are invited to compete in the second German selection trial for the 2011 European Youth Riders Championships.
This second official selection trial will take place in Wiesbaden, Germany, during the CDI competition. Germany has a rigorous selection process which is very easy to follow. The first trial was at the 2011 Preis der Besten, the second will be in Wiesbaden and the last is at the CDI-PJYR Neubeeren 1-3 July 2011. The highest scoring riders at these events will be nominated for the team.

Concerning Tickle fight's post the point I was trying to make is that there are several types of teams. Basketball is very different than the Ryder Cup team. The person or persons picking the US Olympic basketball team does have leeway. He can't just pick the top scorers. He has to figure out how they will work together. The Ryder Cup Captain has a set in stone criterion. I believe it is the top 10 and 2 "Captain's "choice.

The basketball team competes as a single entity. Much of the Ryder Cup, like equestrian events, are individually scored and an aggregate score determines the winner

Donella
Jul. 15, 2011, 02:08 PM
It's the odd person who takes pride in an addiction, but it is better for the general public to know that you are so stuck on your version of success that you will ridicule and walk over anyone who gets in the way or disagrees

Everyone else here is ridiculing Mr Strohen's version of success (or what he does in order to attain it). Meanwhile, the thread becomes about certain posters lack of self esteem and body issues...and nothing to do with this sport.

DutchDressageQueen
Jul. 15, 2011, 02:50 PM
I still think that couple of posters on this thread have made big asses of themselves (no pun intended of course :-D

:lol:

quietann
Jul. 15, 2011, 02:59 PM
I don't think anyone is ridiculing his success. He clearly has a successful program for choosing riders for the various youth teams. It's just that final item in the article, where it *appears* that he had a qualified rider who he did not allow on a team because of how her weight made her look (and made him look, by reflection) and *nothing else*, that rubs the wrong way.

Was she otherwise qualified? We don't know.

We don't have other info, beyond that the parents went to court over it, and lost. That itself rubs me the wrong way, because it's unsportsmanlike, but I do wonder how much the parents had invested, if the girl had scored better than others who were chosen for the team, if she was led to believe she would qualify, etc.

It would be *fascinating* to know his full accounting of the story, and the parents'. I'm assuming there's a public record somewhere, if it actually went to trial and if the German courts handle this sort of thing like the American courts do.

(Full disclosure: I would not be chosen for any sort of team in any context if "good looks" were among the requirements.)

TickleFight
Jul. 15, 2011, 03:31 PM
Yes, and results in dressage competitions are quantified. Individual scores count. Someone comes in first and someone comes in fifth. If the coach decided #3 was to fat and took #5 instead that, IMHO would be wrong. And if there is a qualifying competition and #1 has a bad day she just might have to stay home. Wasn't there was a lawsuit about something similar in eventing?

It's not like basketball where there are no individual scores and results depend not only on individual tallent and skill but how well players work together.

So... by your definition athletes on swim teams, track teams, wrestling teams, ski teams and cross-country teams somehow have individual scores that don't count? Equestrian events are the only sports where an individual score matters? Wow.

Guess what, on all of the teams I listed above individual scores matter. There are try-outs and some individuals make it while others don't. And if an individual is not amenable to coaching, or lacks dedication, or is unreliable or is deficient in any number of other qualities they are removed from the team or simply not allowed to join.

Qualifying scores are only that: a qualification. They are no guarantee of being kept on the team. That is up to the discretion of the coach, whose interest is in winning and developing winners.

carolprudm
Jul. 15, 2011, 06:14 PM
So... by your definition athletes on swim teams, track teams, wrestling teams, ski teams and cross-country teams somehow have individual scores that don't count? Equestrian events are the only sports where an individual score matters? Wow.

Guess what, on all of the teams I listed above individual scores matter. There are try-outs and some individuals make it while others don't. And if an individual is not amenable to coaching, or lacks dedication, or is unreliable or is deficient in any number of other qualities they are removed from the team or simply not allowed to join.

Qualifying scores are only that: a qualification. They are no guarantee of being kept on the team. That is up to the discretion of the coach, whose interest is in winning and developing winners.
Wherever did you come up with that idea? I said that there is a difference between being part of a team and playing a team sport. Swimming is not a team sport (with the exception of relays) Basketball is a team sport. There is ONE gold medal for basketball. There are probably 50 for swimming. You pick the best individuals for the swim team but basketball players have to have skills that complement other players

There is also a big difference between a team that is chosen for one event to be contested in a month and a person who is chosen to be part of a team whose practice and competition season might last for 6 months

TickleFight
Jul. 15, 2011, 07:10 PM
Wherever did you come up with that idea? I said that there is a difference between being part of a team and playing a team sport. Swimming is not a team sport (with the exception of relays) Basketball is a team sport. There is ONE gold medal for basketball. There are probably 50 for swimming. You pick the best individuals for the swim team but basketball players have to have skills that complement other players

There is also a big difference between a team that is chosen for one event to be contested in a month and a person who is chosen to be part of a team whose practice and competition season might last for 6 months

Nobody here compared a dressage team to a basketball team. And all athletic teams have once per year winner take all competitions: in high school they're called districts, or if you are good they are called regionals and states. And that's not even mentioning the super good athletes who compete at national level competition or represent their country internationally. Hmmm... it's starting to get more and more similar to these young dressage riders in Germany.

Based on your posts you seem to have a pretty dim view of coaches, competition and sports in general. We are all allowed our opinions, but criticizing this coach for this issue comes across as woefully uninformed and thin-skinned.

carolprudm
Jul. 17, 2011, 08:43 PM
Based on your posts you seem to have a pretty dim view of coaches, competition and sports in general. We are all allowed our opinions, but criticizing this coach for this issue comes across as woefully uninformed and thin-skinned.
LOL, well bless your heart

Bats79
Jul. 18, 2011, 08:52 AM
It's the odd person who takes pride in an addiction, but it is better for the general public to know that you are so stuck on your version of success that you will ridicule and walk over anyone who gets in the way or disagrees

Everyone else here is ridiculing Mr Strohen's version of success (or what he does in order to attain it). Meanwhile, the thread becomes about certain posters lack of self esteem and body issues...and nothing to do with this sport.

I don't think anyone ridiculed Mr Stohen for anything. I, for one, suggested that we couldn't just take the words at face value because we had no idea of the total situation.

My post was in response to people being attacked based on their body image (not self image at all) and some posters strange need to put people down based on how they look (rather than how they perform).

WILLOW&CAL
Jul. 18, 2011, 09:10 AM
This OP was not about one person or a bunch of riders at lower levels, but about the attitude and discipline it takes to make a national team. Paulaedwina, sorry about the rather unclassy replies and critique, but this thread is not about you or thin vs fat but about discipline at the highest level. It got way too derailed by one person's activistm, or should I say slacktivism. You need to go out there and prove what you're preaching.
I agree 100% that the onus is on the parents to raise respectful teenagers-its not a trainer's job to teach your kid how to behave. That begins at home, irrespective of money or social standing.

paulaedwina
Jul. 18, 2011, 04:56 PM
Slacktivism? I don't recall reading about any slackers in this thread.

Paula

carolprudm
Jul. 19, 2011, 07:26 AM
Slacktivism? I don't recall reading about any slackers in this thread.

Paula
Fat people are slackers. They don't get any exercise beyond stuffing their faces with junk. Instead they need to push away from the table and get moving.

It is OK to denigrate fat people because it's for their own good and anyway they brought it on themselves as long as you say with all sincerity "Well of course I don't mean people with a real medical condition"

FWIW I read this this morning
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cheryl-forberg-rd/weight-loss-tips_b_898321.html

in particular

I found that most of our contestants:
1. Had absolutely no idea how many calories their body really needs (and how many more they are actually taking in)
2. Skipped breakfast and, often, many other meals
3. Didn't eat enough fruit or vegetables
4. Didn't eat enough protein (specifically lean protein)
5. Didn't eat enough whole grains
6. Ate too much white stuff: white flour, white pasta, white sugar, white rice and simple carbs
7. Didn't feel they had time to plan ahead, so they found themselves grabbing something quick for a meal -- often consumed standing up, at their desks or in their cars.
8. Often had enough calories in beverages alone to meet their daily caloric needs -- but didn't drink enough water
9. Didn't exercise enough (if at all)
10. Prioritized their spouse, partner, children and/or their jobs over their own health and well-being
Does any of this sound familiar?

paulaedwina
Jul. 19, 2011, 09:26 AM
Oh! I see. Thanks for the clarification, Carol:lol:!

Would that it were so simple, that one's sense of industry would easily acheived by being skinny.

Paula

WILLOW&CAL
Jul. 19, 2011, 09:42 AM
'Slacktivism' is essentially arm-chair activism. When someone moans about the short-comings of something without getting out-there and physically changing it. Nothing to do with 'fat people' or slackers...

paulaedwina
Jul. 19, 2011, 10:54 AM
Thanks for the clarification. I'd have to say nobody struck me as armchair activists on this thread either. Of course I don't know enough about anyone's real life to draw any such conclusion.

Paula

Kareen
Jul. 20, 2011, 02:56 AM
I am all with Willow&Cal. Why the big hubub (sp?)? I also see no need to turn rude and ridicule anyone posting or trying their best at riding only because they are not at the top level of the sport.
Dressage is in fact way more than a sport. It's true originally it was designed to improve any horse. So I don't see why it should matter whether someone has an up and coming FEI-level horse (of which there seem to be more and more everywhere going by the wording people chose to put in their class ads so it must be somewhat desirable to qualify for that league ;) ) or a draft cross or an OTTTB.
I also see no connection between what H-H MzS said and discrimination towards overweight people. He doesn't say you're worth less when you are fat he just say you aren't suited to join the national team if you are fat which is true even if painful for those who realise they could ride as well as they want and still not make it on the team because of lack of fitness.

Also I am at a total loss, when did it become hip or fashionable to be massively overweight or obese? If it's not ok for teachers to encourage weight loss I honestly want to know who it is ok for? Shouldn't teachers try to encourage a healthy lifestyle in their students and ideally serve as role models themselves?
Significant obesety isn't a fashion it's a health issue that will not only shorten your lifespan but also may make your life miserable by means of orthopedic issues, cloggy blood vessels and many more. On average it clearly relates to lack of education and/or income as eating junk has been associated to both scientifically. Therefor I don't think the obese need ridiculing they need help. It would also never occur to be that someone overweight was worth less or less entitled to an opinion than someone lean and I feel the same kind of sorrow for the anorectic, the bulimic or any other person concerned with a manifest eating disorder.

Lastly the criteria is not about being ugly or pretty. In dressage you can have a big nose or offensive looking teeth, you can have arms or legs way out of proportion and still be at the top of the sport. You can even be a little chubby. You can not be totally overweight for many reasons only one of them being lack of fitness.
I think it's perfectly fine for overweight people to ride, as long as they pick a horse that is up for the challenge. Afterall riding is exercise and exercise will help both fitness and weight-loss.

If teachers in the US aren't allowed to encourage weight loss or change of eating habits in their students you seem to have way bigger problems in your country than the economic ones... There are a great many things I admire about the US but this extremist PC thing clearly isn't one of them. There aren't that many people with thyroid dysfunction and besides most thyroid dysfunctions are easily manageable. Also fat tissue has more functions than being plain storage material for excess energy. Fat cells have hormonal activity (that's how EMS comes up in the horse...) and also store a lot of garbage like environmental pollution heavy metals, DDT etc.etc.
From the biological point of view it is therefor desirable to have a moderate amount of fat. I don't see what should be desirable about being massively overweight and why it should be not ok to encourage weight loss to an obese child.
On the other hand I don't agree with the comments made re. non-competitive riders. I must say some of my favorite horse sales have been to people who have turned their back to competitive riding. They still ride at all levels and from all I can see here in my little country, the trend is clearly moving away from competitive dressage for a variety of reasons. One can like it or not but it's not going to be the end of riding dressage or horse breeding. The Olympics per se are for Amateurs to compete at (in theory) it therefor seems odd to belittle some amateurs' aspirations of one day competing there.
I can appreciate athletes with high achievements in the sport and applaud some of them. H-H MzS is one of the most capable riders and trainers I've known. But that doesn't mean I'll take anything for the be all or end all he or anyone else says.

stolensilver
Jul. 20, 2011, 07:00 AM
I also don't understand why it is politically correct to silently accept obesity. Overeating on the scale that leads people to have BMIs in the 50-60 range are eating 8000-15,000 calories a day. You don't stay morbidly obese if you eat a normal diet which is 2000 calories a day for women and 2500 calories for men. Most obese people are convinced that they don't overeat but when their diets are analysed accurately they do. What is actually happening is that they underestimate the portion size and calorific content of the food they eat by 50% or more.

Obesity is an addiction just like cigarettes, just like alcohol. Treating overeating as a socially acceptable behaviour is wrong just as accepting someone who smokes 100 cigarettes a day as being normal is wrong. The difficulty for obese people is that their addiction cannot be hidden.

I don't believe the answer to obesity lies in education, or at least not education about food. Is there any person in the western world who doesn't know what food is good for you and what food is bad? I think the link between lower life achievements and obesity ( talking statistics which never apply to 100% of people) is to do with self control and the ability to apply yourself to a task. If you can defer having a treat until a certain task is done you have self control and this is present in all aspects of your life including at work and over your diet. If you have not trained yourself in this or you find it very difficult you are less likely to pay attention at school in the subjects you find boring or go the extra mile at work when you have been asked to do a task that you'd rather not do and so the life achievements are less.

The same difficulty with deferring treats until a task is completed is what leads to people eating entire multipacks of crisps and entire packs of biscuits. The area where obese people need education is in self control, how to motivate themselves to defer pleasure and so control the amount of calories they eat. Most of the surgical methods of weight loss impose physical restrictions on eating. If you overeat with a gastric band in place you will vomit. The band imposes self control without bias or favour.

Please don't think I'm picking on obese people. I have great sympathy for them. But because I have sympathy I won't ignore it and treat it as normal. It isn't. It's a major problem for them and it will shorten their life, limit their mobility and cause major health problems. I don't want that to happen to anyone and that is why I'm so upset at the current climate where talking about obesity as a problem is not politically correct.

paulaedwina
Jul. 20, 2011, 09:02 AM
I don't think obesity is accepted in the USA. It's the 3rd in the list of preventable deaths - Tobacco and alcohol being the first 2. And for record, according to the BMI obese begins at 30 and only goes up to 42 (5' 0", 215lbs). So at 5' 8" and 200lbs I am obese (BMI 30). I cannot imagine what one would have to weigh to have a BMI of 60! Here is me http://www.flickr.com/photos/52967336@N00/5917819785/ BTW a 5'11" person weighing 215 would also have a BMI of 30.

I think obesity in the USA is the result of a combination of lifestyle, socio-economic status, and food quality.

Lifestyle
People are less active. Not many of us live in communities that are conducive to walking to work, to school, or to the store. We are a nation of commuters. People spend a great deal of time in cars.

Also, people have some mind-suckingly stressful lives and stress hormones do all kinds of interesting things in your body including stimulating eating, and fat deposit of the toxic type.

Say to someone (as we do in public health) in this environment that he needs to find time to cook and to find time to exercise and he will tell you he does not have the time nor the energy. This is not necessarily so, but this is how he feels. I can speak to this in my own experience. The best thing that happened to me was being laid off from corporate biotech and switching to adjunct work full time. I think I work more hours, but they are better distributed, and I spend less time commuting, and have less stress and suddenly have so much time to cook, to exercise, to eat etc.


SES - Socio-economic status

In the midst of this recession fast food chains are making bank! Why? Because crap food is cheaper than healthy food. You can feed a family for $5 from the dollar menu before you can feed a family fresh fruits, vegetables, whole grains, etc. I can cite you studies that seem to indicate an inverse relationship between calories and cost so that calorie dense foods generally cost less. It's no conspiracy of course, just that all kinds of food industry/government deals have been in place for decades that heavily subsidize products like meat, but not veg.

Of course again it is also a matter of perception and education. You can actually feed a family well on the cheap but you have to know how to cook from scratch (a lost art, gone the way of home economics classes in school I'm afraid), and how to cook ahead.

This issue manifests so that in the USA poverty is a risk factor for obesity. Why are poor people here so fat? Because they're subsisting on garbage. Compound this with urban food deserts - areas where there are fast food joint, liquor stores, and corner stores aplenty, but no grocery stores. People are trying many ways to mitigate this. The City of Baltimore is attempting many models to address this problem, for example.


Food quality


Generally speaking you get satisfaction from eating in two ways; stomach stretching, or satiety (mental). If the food is good you don't eat alot of it to achieve satisfaction. Historically we've made food more accessible (financially) through mass production, but in the process have lost quality. This lack of quality is mitigated by the addition of flavorings such as salt, sweet, or grease. So when we eat our food by the bucketful trying to get that hit, we eat an inordinate amount of salt, sweet, and grease.


Great example


The Pima Indians stretch across the Mexico border. So we have an excellent population to see the effect of food and lifestyle since we have American Pima and Mexican Pima. Pima have thrifty genes - the population thrived in a harsh environment where more efficient storing of calories allowed you to survive. American Pima, subsisting on poverty type foods are hugely obese. They have such a problem with obesity and type 2 diabetes that they have their own dialysis center. Mexican Pima are still small people. Why? Likely because a poverty diet among the Mexican Pima consists of complex carbs (beans) and little meat, while the poverty diet among the American Pima is high in fats and refined sugars.


Disclaimers;
1. No I'm not making excuses
2. No I am not seeking victimhood
3. I am just relating relevant data

Paula

carolprudm
Jul. 20, 2011, 09:05 AM
I also don't understand why it is politically correct to silently accept obesity. <SNIP>
It's a major problem for them and it will shorten their life, limit their mobility and cause major health problems. I don't want that to happen to anyone and that is why I'm so upset at the current climate where talking about obesity as a problem is not politically correct.


There is a difference between accepting obesity and a national coach publicly saying "So and so qualified for the team but I wouldn't take her because she is to fat" This falls under the situation "If you can't say something nice keep your mouth shut" This comment should have been made to the rider IN PRIVATE NOT to an internationally read publication.

There are a lot of things we don't know about the situation.

Just how fat is the rider? If she qualified she can't be all that bad. It's not like the coach rejected Sophie and I.

What were the published criteria for picking the team? If the criteria said riders 1-4 automatically made up the team and the coach dropped #3 in favor of #5 he was wrong. This isn't wrestling. The criteria probably didn't say a darn thing about rider'e weight.

I'm overweight and yes I know that I am and I know the health risks. It's a work in progress.

I don't know if you saw the list I posted above for the reasons people become obese. It's written by a nutritionist from the TV show "The Biggest Looser" In my case it is 20 years of #10 (3 children, disabled mom, followed by a demanding 60+ hour a week job)with a bit of #4 and #7 thrown in. Three lbs a year just creeps up on you.

Paula's situation probably results from a variation of #1. She came from a culture where portion sizes were smaller to one where food is supersized.

There are other factors as well. The food kids are fed in schools is terrible. Around here we have a lot of kids on subsidized meals. They get crap in schools and probably don't get much better at home. I suspect a lot of them don't know what really good fresh food is and then there is good old #7. My kids got lots of exercise and are not overweight but I have to admit we were well known at the local pizza parlor:eek:

WILLOW&CAL
Jul. 20, 2011, 10:27 AM
Carol and Paula, I think we all know the extent and reasons behind obesity and unhealthy lifestyles not just in the US but in a lot of first-world countries. The fact is that you don't have to get defensive about it, your lives and situations are your own and only a truly uninformed and unpleasant person would judge your choices. I for one, get it completely. Our lives become complicated and dedicated mostly to our families, jobs and horses to such an extent we don't take time to take care of ourselves and our health. I highly doubt that a teenager, hand-picked to represent her country in a sport, has the same concerns. She is NOT you and therefore don't make your issues her issues. Apart from a few sports, athleticism and good physique are the very basic requirement so why do we stand in judgement of a man who chose to kick a girl out of his programme because she didn't fulfill the basic criteria? That criteria is obvious to anybody in a competitive environment. It need not be underlined.

carolprudm
Jul. 20, 2011, 10:52 AM
Carol and Paula, I think we all know the extent and reasons behind obesity and unhealthy lifestyles not just in the US but in a lot of first-world countries. The fact is that you don't have to get defensive about it, your lives and situations are your own and only a truly uninformed and unpleasant person would judge your choices. I for one, get it completely. Our lives become complicated and dedicated mostly to our families, jobs and horses to such an extent we don't take time to take care of ourselves and our health. I highly doubt that a teenager, hand-picked to represent her country in a sport, has the same concerns. She is NOT you and therefore don't make your issues her issues. Apart from a few sports, athleticism and good physique are the very basic requirement so why do we stand in judgement of a man who chose to kick a girl out of his programme because she didn't fulfill the basic criteria? That criteria is obvious to anybody in a competitive environment. It need not be underlined.
I am attempting to underline that it is NOT necessary to make some comments like "I'm not going to take those tonnes on the road" in any kind of a public venue as well as some othercomments that were made on this thread.

Maybe I was just brought up differently.

But now I will attempt to follow my own advice. It is quite obvious that many people DO find it acceptable to put down other people, both the coach in question as well as some COTH posters.

paulaedwina
Jul. 20, 2011, 11:25 AM
I really did not intend to make the discussion about me. I just found I had to speak up about how acceptable it seemed to be for some to pass judgment on fat people and make assumptions about their morality, intelligence, etc. I was not happy to hear the original coach talk about taking tonnes on the road - I didn't think that was a kind or necessary thing to say. Heck, even if he found the rider aesthetically displeasing he could have kept it to himself right?

JMO of course.
Paula

TickleFight
Jul. 20, 2011, 11:26 AM
Keep in mind as well that German culture is not American culture. Americans are generally raised not to vocalize their thoughts unless they are positive or complementary.

From my exposure to German culture I would say they are generally raised differently. They tend to express their entire opinion much more than we do. They seem to be very frank, and will tell you when you are doing something terribly. From my experience Germans do not subscribe to the "everybody is good enough" mentality that Americans do.

Regardless, their trainers and system must be working since they produce so many successful horses and riders. It's interesting that the most vocal critics of this particular trainer also appear to have the least knowledge of competitive sports in general, and high level dressage specifically.

Alagirl
Jul. 20, 2011, 11:30 AM
After all this I just have one question:
Since the girl obviously rode well enough to qualify, then why was she told she could not go? Performance could not have been the problem, could it? I am considering that the competition is strong...
So it all falls back on not effectiveness but appearance?

not knowing the interaction between the trainer and the family it does make him look like a smuck.....

carolprudm
Jul. 20, 2011, 11:37 AM
Keep in mind as well that German culture is not American culture. Americans are generally raised not to vocalize their thoughts unless they are positive or complementary.

From my exposure to German culture I would say they are generally raised differently. They tend to express their entire opinion much more than we do. They seem to be very frank, and will tell you when you are doing something terribly. From my experience Germans do not subscribe to the "everybody is good enough" mentality that Americans do.

Regardless, their trainers and system must be working since they produce so many successful horses and riders. It's interesting that the most vocal critics of this particular trainer also appear to have the least knowledge of competitive sports in general, and high level dressage specifically.
There are things that can be said in private that should not be said in public

TickleFight
Jul. 20, 2011, 11:43 AM
After all this I just have one question:
Since the girl obviously rode well enough to qualify, then why was she told she could not go? Performance could not have been the problem, could it? I am considering that the competition is strong...
So it all falls back on not effectiveness but appearance?

not knowing the interaction between the trainer and the family it does make him look like a smuck.....

People who make it onto competitive sports teams get kicked off for any number of reasons, many of which can be found listed earlier in the thread. None of these reasons have to do with looks. If you can't think of any reasons to be kicked off a team other than for appearance, then you clearly understand nothing about sports.

TickleFight
Jul. 20, 2011, 11:45 AM
There are things that can be said in private that should not be said in public

That is the culture YOU were raised in. Be careful about projecting yourself onto others.

carolprudm
Jul. 20, 2011, 12:52 PM
That is the culture YOU were raised in. Be careful about projecting yourself onto others.

LOL, yes I was raised by the very belle epoque daughter of a Paris trained dressmaker and a Swiss cavalry officer(unfortunately they died before my ears were old enough to hear that story) Some habits are very hard to break.

And if you are doing the math my mother would be almost 100 years old.

paulaedwina
Jul. 20, 2011, 01:31 PM
Indeed; their system is producing alot of winners.

Paula

netg
Jul. 20, 2011, 01:43 PM
Apart from a few sports, athleticism and good physique are the very basic requirement so why do we stand in judgement of a man who chose to kick a girl out of his programme because she didn't fulfill the basic criteria? That criteria is obvious to anybody in a competitive environment. It need not be underlined.

For me, the alarm bells ring at not knowing how "overweight" and "fat" she was, and having flashbacks to the stories of poor gymnasts starving themselves to try to be thin enough. And in doing so, making themselves sick and underweight. Ballerinas are often pressured to do the same.

I would like to know more about the situation - expecting kids who at least theoretically have few responsibilities to be fit is fine, I agree. I just would like to know what made up "fat" and how performance was affected.


I was the kid who some people would have called fat because I have an overall rounder shape - but I was VERY underweight. Clothes hid just how bony my arms and legs were, and how much my ribs stuck out. My belly was rounder to fit my organs in while everything else was sunken in, but some dumb people thought I was heavy - I even got comments which just astounded me. I was working with a doctor the first 18 years of my life to try to put on weight because I was so underweight it affected my health. So anyone calling a kid "fat" without knowing the medical situation behind it (as he doesn't indicate he did - but we can't know that for sure) does tend to raise my hackles. I just wish we knew more about this specific situation, to know if it was warranted... but I'm really enjoying the respectful aspects of this conversation.


I think kids need to be encouraged to get out and get moving. Part of my weight problem was because I used to love running around our block (2 1/2 miles of hills) for fun, rode horses about 30 hours/week, and was constantly climbing trees, pretending to be a stadium jumper, whatever, in my free time. I simply couldn't eat enough calories to keep up!

What I want to know is how to bring up the weight conversation? For me, my weight was always a matter of health. It was always a discussion in the doctor's office, and it seems to me it should be for kids who are either over or underweight. I've known people with "weight problems" (including an eventer who was awfully thin and successful as a kid) who really had food problems, because their parents' self-image issues were passed along. Telling a kid "you're getting fat" will rarely be useful, but telling a kid "you need to do X more because your health is being affected by your lack of fitness; this is what we're going to do to help you fix it" is something I think unlikely to do anything but help. It's not about political correctness, but about teaching healthy attitudes which will last a lifetime.

And poverty and lack of easy/inexpensive healthy foods is a problem, too. There's a whole lot less food knowledge out there than a lot of people think, even among the educated.

Alagirl
Jul. 21, 2011, 03:52 PM
There are things that can be said in private that should not be said in public


That is the culture YOU were raised in. Be careful about projecting yourself onto others.

No, there ARE thing you should not discuss in public. If you don't get that you clearly don't understand human interaction.

yes, there can be several reasons for a person to be dropped from the team, considering that equestrian teams have a very limited number of slots and many hopefuls waiting for an opening.
However (I did sift through several pages of this topic) the reason for dismissal was weight. And if was in fact something else it does not make the trainer look any better.

TickleFight
Jul. 21, 2011, 05:10 PM
Are you aware of any overweight individual's who represent a country in international sports? I'm not. Refusing to "shape-up" in any number of ways is a one-way ticket off a sports team. Coaches have the final say and their goal is to win. This coach, who is likely more knowledgeable and experienced than anyone who posts on this board, decided it was in the best interest of the German team for this individual not to be a member. Her weight is her problem.

Stop being apologists for people who don't have what it takes. If you disagree with this coach then don't clinic with him... that's how it works.

Maybe dressage just isn't enough of a sport anymore so as to weed out those who lack fitness and dedication. I generally don't see similar gripes coming from the jumping or eventing sectors.

DutchDressageQueen
Jul. 21, 2011, 05:52 PM
Stop being apologists for people who don't have what it takes.

:yes:

netg
Jul. 21, 2011, 07:09 PM
Are you aware of any overweight individual's who represent a country in international sports? I'm not.


Overweight is not well defined, as BMI will consider a large portion of athletes overweight due to muscle weight.

But some examples of those who battle weight and have been called overweight (at times unjustly) even while representing their country...

Gymnastics (multiple medals, including gold) who was always criticized for being "chunky". Because yeah, that's how a fat girl moves:
http://www.salon.com/sports/olympics/feature/2008/08/10/drugs/story.jpg

Or how about US participants in the 2010 WEG?
Eventing:
http://www.darwood.ca/cgi-script/csNews/image_upload/USAEventing_2edb.BeckyHolder_CouragoeusComent.jpg

Dressage:
http://www.phelpsphotos.com/copyrightPhotos/118923.jpg

How about the reining team?
http://www.fenwickfarm.com/products/upload/foals/Reining_WEG_001.jpg