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ponies4evur
Jul. 1, 2011, 04:45 PM
I'm not very familiar with any type of bloodlines from any discipline, but what are the really top-notch, high end dressage bloodlines? Specifically you would want to look for if purchasing or breeding.

I might have not worded that correctly...I apologize if I didn't.

xrmn002
Jul. 1, 2011, 06:44 PM
There's a lot. I peronally like to see Donnerhall, Rubenstein or Weltmeyer up close.

Elegante E
Jul. 1, 2011, 06:53 PM
Brentano II gives super rideability, as in willing partners with good minds. He's considered one of the top stallions in recent breeding history.

Wanted to add, have heard that Weltmeyers can be difficult.

The problem with choosing bloodlines is that no one tells the horse what he's supposed to be. In Europe they send a lot of purpose bred horses to slaughter because the animals can't do the job. They also sell many to the US as cheap hunters since that discipline isn't practiced there.

DutchDressageQueen
Jul. 1, 2011, 08:40 PM
There are lots out there.

Donnerhall
Negro
Gribaldi
Sandro Hit
Havidoff
Painted Black
Krack C


those are just a few of the many good dressage stallions out there

honeylips
Jul. 1, 2011, 08:49 PM
For German bred dressage horses most people gravitate towards the "Big 5" bloodlines:

Donnerhall
RubInstein (not RubEnstein)
Weltmeyer
Sandro Hit
Florestan

For Dutch bred these names come up over and over:
Flemmingh
Ferro
Jazz

Walnut Farm
Jul. 1, 2011, 11:41 PM
agree with bloodlines mentioned!

As a side note, know a lot of breeders in Germany, and noone sends their less suited horses to slaughter. Perhaps very old or in other ways injured. For lesser stellar horses, they sell inexpensive as pleasure horses.

dudleyc
Jul. 2, 2011, 09:17 AM
For German bred dressage horses most people gravitate towards the "Big 5" bloodlines:

Donnerhall
RubInstein (not RubEnstein)
Weltmeyer
Sandro Hit
Florestan

For Dutch bred these names come up over and over:
Flemmingh
Ferro
Jazz

One thing to be aware of is the naming systems of the different registries. The german registries (hannoverian (sp?) and oldenburg being the largest) Will in general name the offspring using the same first letter. Thus Donnerhall has sired the "D" line famous Donnerhall stallion sons include De Niro, Don Schufro, ........ Sandro Hit has Sir Donnerhall, Stedinger.

Most of the top german dressage horses will trace back to one of the 5 lines that honeylips pointed out "D" "F" "R" "S" "W"

The Dutch KWPN uses a diifferent naming system so the horses are named depending on the year that they were born. This year is "G".

It gets complicated in that a stallion can be approved by a lot of registries. Donnerhall was oldenburg his son De Niro is hannovarian De Niro's son Voice is KWPN

MysticOakRanch
Jul. 2, 2011, 10:04 AM
Also remember you aren't just looking at the stallion line. The mare contributes significantly to the horse's ability and personality...

Kyzteke
Jul. 2, 2011, 10:04 AM
For German bred dressage horses most people gravitate towards the "Big 5" bloodlines:

Donnerhall
RubInstein (not RubEnstein)
Weltmeyer
Sandro Hit
Florestan



While he IS very popular, I would hesitate to put SH in the same class as Donnerhall, Rubinstein, Weltmeyer & Florestan.

At this point he has yet to prove himself as a sire of upper level horses, however his get are doing very well in the lower levels..

I would also add Hohenstein to the group, especially for ammies, as I know very few of his get that aren't talented and easy to ride. Ditto for the "B" line, which, while almost dying out, is slowly making a come-back. They tend to be dressage specialists and bring elegance & brilliance to the table.

But it is always better to choose the horse before the pedigree; I doubt many upper level riders put much weight on the pedigree when selecting a mount (unless they are retained by a breeder, as Lisa Wilcox was and Ed Gal is).

There are/were plenty of upper level dressage stars who did not have any of these horses in their pedigree or if they did, they were not close up.

And much depends on what type of rider you are and what level you are shooting for (which may well mean a horse switch at some point).

The "R" line is known for it's high rideability and is very ammie-friendly. This trait is so well ingrained in them that I have yet to meet or even hear of a difficult "R" line horse.. I'm sure there is one out there, but....

Oh! I just thought of one: Rembrandt!!! But, although technically he is an "R" line horse, these days when we think of "R" line, we think of horses sired by Rubinstein I or one of his sons.

Weltmeyers are generally not suited for the timid or inexperienced rider and both Ferro & Jazz get are usually considered more of "pro" rides.

But, again, an animal has many other horse's contributing to a pedigree than just a sire, so one is wise to never pick the pedigree over the horse.

LittleblackMorgan
Jul. 2, 2011, 10:19 AM
Weltmeyers are generally not suited for the timid or inexperienced rider and both Ferro & Jazz get are usually considered more of "pro" rides.

My mare is a Weltmeyer Granddaughter (Werbellin daughter).
You hit the nail on the head with that description! While she's VERY smart, very affectionate...she's HOT HOT HOT. She will give you one hell of a run for your money. I now know her buttons but it took about 6 months. She'll try every trick in the book to be difficult (not dangerous). You really have to keep pressing to "win".

The seller would not even entertain any visits from prospective buyers who weren't very experienced.She told me that I was a strong rider andgood for the mare.

Curious to see who else finds similar with their Weltmeyer kids?

ponies4evur
Jul. 2, 2011, 12:29 PM
Okay, I'm starting to get a feel for the names:) thanks guys!

Can someone explain the 5 letter things with the "d"s and the "r".s What are the differences in the quality & characteristics of the horse?

Karenb
Jul. 2, 2011, 12:54 PM
I love the Weltmeyer line and have a Weltmeyer grandson, son of Werbellin.. My werbellin 6 year old is spooky but not hot, in fact he is rather lazy..very affectionate and has lots of personality but makes you work for everything.

luvmydutch
Jul. 2, 2011, 04:04 PM
My filly is by the stallion L'andiamo who stands at Cornell University. EASY EASY ammy temperament...natural strong topline, super talented at dressage with a big reaching trot...when she's excited on the lunge or just coming out of a canter she does a HUGE extended trot (she's only 3 and does this naturally). Spanish walks on her own when she's mad at flies....

Her dam was herself an international showjumper...with mainly jumping lines.
The horses in her pedigree: L'andiamo, Zeus, Andiamo, Lord, Voltaire, Furioso II

If I could clone my mare over and over again i would have a stable full of her clones as dressage horses. I can't recommend her lines highly enough!

DutchDressageQueen
Jul. 2, 2011, 09:14 PM
it is always better to choose the horse before the pedigree; I doubt many upper level riders put much weight on the pedigree when selecting a mount

Exactly!!!

You know, the horse can have the best bloodlines, but have a crappy walk, trot like a Shetland pony, and a canter much left to be desired.

When looking at a horse, never think, oh look at his bloodlines they're great! so he must also move extremely well!

Just because a horse's sire is great (or dam) does not mean the horse is going to be the same as the sire/dam.

There are many horses out there without good bloodlines, but they move better than those with the good bloodlines.

mbm
Jul. 2, 2011, 09:15 PM
while the question is about bloodlines, more important i think is the individual in front of you and who they are as an individual (and who is going to be riding them!) As an example: it doenst matter how well bred - if the horse doesn't have good ridability or if they dont want to do the job - fantastic gaits etc will do you no good.

luvmydutch
Jul. 2, 2011, 09:20 PM
I honestly feel as though most warmblood registries value rideability and conformation so highly that you have a pretty safe bet with good bloodlines behind the horse. I have seen very few sandro hit or Roemer offspring that are mules with ewe necks and terrible canters ;-)

mbm
Jul. 2, 2011, 09:47 PM
yes, but not every WB from those lines will excel and many not from those lines will.

better to look at the horse in front of you and see how you click with them and see if they will do the hard work required to train up the levels.

Elegante E
Jul. 2, 2011, 11:42 PM
It's incorrect to say all registries value rideability. They value conformation and gaits but not all view rideability the same or even rate it. Dutch WBs are not put to the same tests for rideability that Hanoverians are.

Btw, I never said or implied that breeders send their stock to slaughter. Breeders sell, others buy. Not every horse will be useable for one reason or another and those that aren't are put down or sent to slaughter. There is a well known story of a dressage driving horse that was on its way to slaughter but was purchased by a driver at the last minute and went on to become part of an olympic driving team.

Lateralwork
Jul. 3, 2011, 12:16 AM
If you are looking at young, unstarted horses, you have to think about their bloodlines, as well as the confirmation and temperament that you see in front of you. I have a young mare by Rosario, a Rubenstein son, out of a mare sired by a Trakehner (Happy Hour) with a good record of producing rideable horses. I specifically went looking for an R line youngster, because of the rideability. She's been under saddle a year, and I am very pleased with her as an amateur owner horse. Has talent for dressage and I can take her on the trails.

CZF
Jul. 3, 2011, 01:44 PM
There's a lot. I peronally like to see Donnerhall, Rubenstein or Weltmeyer up close.

These guys for sure, and the Florestan lines too :cool:

ponies4evur
Jul. 3, 2011, 02:13 PM
I'm green at this but no one ever stays objective to the start of the thread...
In every horse i've ever ridden bloodlines have never been the main priority, but if your going to breed it would make more sense to breed to proven bloodlines.

RunningwaterWBs
Jul. 3, 2011, 02:28 PM
In every horse i've ever ridden bloodlines have never been the main priority, but if your going to breed it would make more sense to breed to proven bloodlines.
So true! Even in my little two-mare breeding program, I tend to stay with R, D, and F lines. This year the F's have it: Florencio (Florestan F line) and Fielding (Fabriano F line, technically W back to Wendekreis).

Kyzteke
Jul. 3, 2011, 04:19 PM
I'm not very familiar with any type of bloodlines from any discipline, but what are the really top-notch, high end dressage bloodlines? Specifically you would want to look for if purchasing or breeding.

I might have not worded that correctly...I apologize if I didn't.

And I would have to ask WHY are you interested in knowing for about these bloodlines? Are planning to breed yourself or are you buying for a future riding horse?

LittleblackMorgan
Jul. 5, 2011, 10:53 AM
I love the Weltmeyer line and have a Weltmeyer grandson, son of Werbellin.. My werbellin 6 year old is spooky but not hot, in fact he is rather lazy..very affectionate and has lots of personality but makes you work for everything.

Do you have photos? I would LOVE to see my girl's brother!!! (Mine is 10 this past April)

Valentina_32926
Jul. 5, 2011, 12:57 PM
Depends on registery and how far back you want to go in their bloodlines but in dressage look for:

Donnerhall, Rubinstein, Sandro Hit, Utrillo, Pik Bube, Jazz (he's hot), Master, Briar (can be difficult), Idocus, Flemmingh, Krack C, Biotop, Cabochon, Vincent, Clavecimbel, Ulft, Cocktail, Doruto, Wellington, Gribaldi, Havidoff for a few.

Pony Fixer
Jul. 5, 2011, 02:41 PM
My horse is Weltmeyer one back on the dam side and Pik L one back on the sire side.

He has always been a challenge (I got him at age 5), and was even a bit dangerous at first--being 5 AND a Weltmeyer. He's fabulous now that we have an "understanding".

My trainer loves D lines and has a lot of DeNiro babies. She just sold a fantastic Fabuleaux baby as well. Given my druthers, I'm Rubinstein all the way...

ponies4evur
Jul. 7, 2011, 04:07 PM
And I would have to ask WHY are you interested in knowing for about these bloodlines? Are planning to breed yourself or are you buying for a future riding horse?

I feel like you just asked what I stated to begin with, that you also quoted. What bloodlines would you look for if you were breeding or purchasing a horse?

Manni01
Jul. 7, 2011, 04:58 PM
I'm green at this but no one ever stays objective to the start of the thread...
In every horse i've ever ridden bloodlines have never been the main priority, but if your going to breed it would make more sense to breed to proven bloodlines.
But if you want to breed, then both sides of your pedigree should be proven bloodlines....

Hiddenacresmi
Jul. 9, 2011, 02:26 AM
Brentano II gives super rideability, as in willing partners with good minds. He's considered one of the top stallions in recent breeding history.

Wanted to add, have heard that Weltmeyers can be difficult.

The problem with choosing bloodlines is that no one tells the horse what he's supposed to be. In Europe they send a lot of purpose bred horses to slaughter because the animals can't do the job. They also sell many to the US as cheap hunters since that discipline isn't practiced there.

I always hate it when a stallion gets a bad wrap. Weltmeyer's are not ALL hot or difficult. If he was so bad how did he end up with 86 licensed sons and 433 Elite/States Premium Mare daughters. He almost single-handedly reshaped the Hanoverian breed. Unfortunately the great one is now gone and I have heard there was a last minute surge in Germany to breed to him since his phenomenual hind leg action was missing in many of the other bloodlines.

The damline contributes so much to the end product and is the influence over the foal during the raising until weaning process.

When we started breeding we decided if you didn't have the mares you didn't have anything so, specifically selected two damlines that were known for high rideability and rare multi generationally "elite" ranked. That's our base and I learned the hard way to stick with it.

We have to look at each mare individually to see what they were lacking and we have bred one mare to Weltmeyer twice. The end results so far has been stunning. I might add the other mares have Weltmeyer in their pedigree as well.

Our Weltmeyer babies have been excellent in nature. Weltmeyer is known for passing on expression and movement. One of the owners of my Weltmeyer babies has a Weltmeyer son now and had to have a repeat because of his temperament, ability to learn and the unbelieveable partnership they have forged even now at the higher levels.

The great stallion bloodlines have their purpose in breeding. Often however I think the stallions with the great semen get used too often by mares that are just not a good match.

I am thankful I have more Weltmeyer in my tank waiting for the next mare I think needs his attributes and are a good combination with his. Expression/typiness, movement, hind leg action!

Cowgirl
Jul. 9, 2011, 04:30 AM
My personal favorite: May Sherif.

dotneko
Jul. 9, 2011, 07:43 AM
Sandy - I have an Ulft/Doruto and at 24 he still
looks like he can rip through a GP test without
breathing hard. I tell him he is the same Ulft
'vintage' as Ferro was (he is Fabian) and has
some high powered relatives that he has to live up
to.:lol:

Kyzteke
Jul. 10, 2011, 11:34 PM
I always hate it when a stallion gets a bad wrap.

It's not a bad rap (which would mean it's totally untrue); it's a real tendency in his direct sons/daughters.

Weltmeyer was indeed a great sire, but his get were often NOT for timid or green riders. Just because they were sweet babies doesn't make them easy riding horses. As for all the approved stallions & SPS mares he produced, again, I would venture to guarantee the riders who showed these horses in their tests were not American ammies riding at 1st level.

The start of my breeding program was a Batido (Bolero) mare. I bred her to a Rubinstein son and to Weltmeyer, and she produced a filly from each breeding. These are my "foundation" mares.

The Weltmeyer mare is unridable due to a early injury, but just in handling her on the ground she is WAY different. Not dangerous, but VERY opinionated. She definitely likes to have the last word. I personally like her, but I'm an experienced horsewoman.

Every horse must be judged on their own, and the sire is just one horse in the pedigree, but this "trait" of the Weltmeyer get is pretty well known. Tasker has a Weltmeyer son, who she adores, but says it took awhile for them to get it sorted out. There was another imported son (a gelding) in this area who was great for the owner's trainer, but simply could not tolerate the fumbling of the ammie owner herself. I watched a number of dressage ring meltdowns myself.

These are tendencies of a sire, not absolutes (like I'm sure not EVERY Jazz horse is a hottie), but if you are going to breed or buy, it's nice to be aware of those tendencies, don't you think?

Hiddenacresmi
Jul. 11, 2011, 07:11 AM
Every horse must be judged on their own, and the sire is just one horse in the pedigree, but this "trait" of the Weltmeyer get is pretty well known. Tasker has a Weltmeyer son, who she adores, but says it took awhile for them to get it sorted out. There was another imported son (a gelding) in this area who was great for the owner's trainer, but simply could not tolerate the fumbling of the ammie owner herself. I watched a number of dressage ring meltdowns myself.

These are tendencies of a sire, not absolutes (like I'm sure not EVERY Jazz horse is a hottie), but if you are going to breed or buy, it's nice to be aware of those tendencies, don't you think?

Yes, I agree people should be educated but on the whole picture. You have mentoned instances of "Weltmeyer's" with bad tendencies. My point was to identify that the damline is an equally important part of the equation and must be considered. We often don't hear about the dam's bloodlines, only the "sire" of these less than desirable horses. Weltmeyer was bred to alot in his day (because of his greatness) probably with mares that were not suitable.

Offspring not under saddle are not a true illustration of what the temperament will be, but there are multitudes of "Weltmeyer" sons/offspring standing at stud and competing at both amateur and higher levels in North America that are doing extremely well.

bathsheba8542
Jul. 11, 2011, 07:32 AM
I'm interested in opinions on Danish stallions. Don't seem to hear to much about them these days.

Hiddenacresmi
Jul. 11, 2011, 08:25 AM
I know nothing about Danish bred stallions.

When we decided to embark on "breeding" I spent alot of time researching bloodlines, breeds, protocos, etc. I simply wanted to breed the best.

I zero'd in on Hanoverians for the following points;

- Hanoverian basic foundation philosphy when started in the 1700's was to breed a rideable, noble, big framed and correct warmblood horse, which, on the basis of its natural abilities, its temperament and character is suitable as a performance horse as well as a pleasure horse.


- Hanoverian stallions are tested (70 days, 100 days, etc.) and must achieve the highest point score of any of the warmblood breeds. To be considered an approved Hannoverian stallion they must achieve atleast 90% score. All the other warmblood breeds have lower required scores. Some stallions don't make it through the testing (health, etc). Guest riders (never ridden the stallion before) are involved in the final scoring.

- Hanoverian mares are tested (in hand, undersaddle and through free jump chute) to see if they are well rounded; Mare must also produce a live foal (health, genetics) and must achieve highest scores to be considered "Elite'.

- Hanoverian breed is not "closed" registry it does allow stallions from other breeds to be used, But, those stallions must meet the same high testing standards. Often these other registry stallions improve the bloodline because of their traits.

ok... off my soap box... I love my breed!!;):p

carolprudm
Jul. 11, 2011, 08:40 AM
While you won't see many Irish Draught stallions in upper level dressage(you won't see many ID stallions, period) there are indeed some that do. O'Leary's Irish Diamond, KEC Double Diamond, Steeped in Luck and the up and coming Lionwood Kinsale Lad all go back to the great King of Diamonds

Forte
Jul. 11, 2011, 03:39 PM
I always hate it when a stallion gets a bad wrap. Weltmeyer's are not ALL hot or difficult. If he was so bad how did he end up with 86 licensed sons and 433 Elite/States Premium Mare daughters. He almost single-handedly reshaped the Hanoverian breed. Unfortunately the great one is now gone and I have heard there was a last minute surge in Germany to breed to him since his phenomenual hind leg action was missing in many of the other bloodlines.

The damline contributes so much to the end product and is the influence over the foal during the raising until weaning process.

When we started breeding we decided if you didn't have the mares you didn't have anything so, specifically selected two damlines that were known for high rideability and rare multi generationally "elite" ranked. That's our base and I learned the hard way to stick with it.

We have to look at each mare individually to see what they were lacking and we have bred one mare to Weltmeyer twice. The end results so far has been stunning. I might add the other mares have Weltmeyer in their pedigree as well.

Our Weltmeyer babies have been excellent in nature. Weltmeyer is known for passing on expression and movement. One of the owners of my Weltmeyer babies has a Weltmeyer son now and had to have a repeat because of his temperament, ability to learn and the unbelieveable partnership they have forged even now at the higher levels.

The great stallion bloodlines have their purpose in breeding. Often however I think the stallions with the great semen get used too often by mares that are just not a good match.

I am thankful I have more Weltmeyer in my tank waiting for the next mare I think needs his attributes and are a good combination with his. Expression/typiness, movement, hind leg action!

A agree with Hidden Acres. I often hear "Weltmeyers are difficult" but I have known a number of direct offspring, grandkids and great grandkids, and not found them to be particularly difficult. The kindest, most ammie friendly horse I ever knew was a Weltmeyer granddaughter (by Wolkenstein II). Weltmeyer also tends to pass on a wonderful hind leg, something that is sorely lacking in some of the more popular lines today.