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Flying Ponies
Jun. 30, 2011, 01:27 PM
Hi Everyone,

I took on a tb mare from a rescue knowing the papers were in some sort of flux. I went on the jockey club site to look up her name and it was listed as Sold Without Pedigree. The ridiculous part of this is that the previous owner abandoned her, let her starve and really could have cared less, but managed have the time to mark her as SWP ???? ah jeeeeezzzzzzz,....Does this mean I can never get her papers...

What about proving who she is for use in breeding for sport?

Any and all advice, experiences, etc welcome. thanks!!

EponaRoan
Jun. 30, 2011, 01:45 PM
You can never get her Jockey Club papers back.

http://www.jockeyclub.com/registry.asp?section=3#eighteen

How do you know that the same person who had her papers cancelled is the same one who starved her?

Flying Ponies
Jun. 30, 2011, 01:51 PM
Epona,

Thank you for your info. To answer your question,
I took her on from a rescue group. Apparently there was a disharmonious dissolution of a racing/breeding partnership and the horses got 'left' on their own. The rescue organisation told me there was some issue with the papers b/c the "owner- whoever that was" was trying to do just this- and keep anyone from being able to do anything with them....The rescue organisation was trying to work with the JC to amend it.

Langfuhr
Jun. 30, 2011, 07:04 PM
Well, he surely took care of that! Honestly, theres not a whole lot that JC is gonna do unless he provides notarized permission.

Flying Ponies
Jun. 30, 2011, 07:26 PM
Thanks Langfuhr,
Interestingly, the JC did not offer that as even a remote possibility when I spoke with them. I did not ask specifically that question tho'. Not sure I could even track down the owner, last I heard he left this country and moved to England. He probably has a new batch of horses over there....

War Admiral
Jun. 30, 2011, 07:34 PM
Thanks Langfuhr,
Interestingly, the JC did not offer that as even a remote possibility when I spoke with them. I did not ask specifically that question tho'. Not sure I could even track down the owner, last I heard he left this country and moved to England. He probably has a new batch of horses over there....

There's this thing called the Internet. It can find almost anyone, anywhere. :yes:

Best of luck in your search. If I could wave a magic wand and change ONE thing about equestrian life it would be the JC's total policy of non-cooperation with sport horse people. :no:

Laurierace
Jun. 30, 2011, 07:38 PM
Once the pedigree is gone, it's gone. I imagine that is one rule they will fight to the death on because to cave even once would open them up to everyone pressing the issue. Not saying you don't have a legitimate right to get them, it's just not going to happen.

Flying Ponies
Jun. 30, 2011, 07:40 PM
War Adrmiral,

OMGosh LOL, AMEN!!!

Isn't there, or maybe shouldn't there be a "registry" for TB's who have been excommunicated from the JC whereby you could get a "certificate" of pedigree based on DNA matchup, something or other - just to prove who the horse IS.....

War Admiral
Jun. 30, 2011, 08:07 PM
Once the pedigree is gone, it's gone. I imagine that is one rule they will fight to the death on because to cave even once would open them up to everyone pressing the issue. Not saying you don't have a legitimate right to get them, it's just not going to happen.

That's why I said it would require a magic wand! :lol:

FP, yeah, way back when, that's what the PHR was *supposed* to be. Then they opened it up to other breeds and it's pretty much pointless now.

Langfuhr
Jun. 30, 2011, 09:58 PM
I dont think Ive ever seen a SWP reversal..

Las Olas
Jun. 30, 2011, 10:09 PM
What about proving who she is for use in breeding for sport?



I used to work for TJC and I don't think they have ever reversed a SWP.

She would be eligible for papers with the PHR. You can read about the history of it's development by TJC here.

http://www.phr.com/pageDisplay.aspx?pid=history

The only reason they opened it up to other breeds is because of a lack of interest from the hobby/sport horse community.

Flying Ponies
Jun. 30, 2011, 10:46 PM
Will def check this,thanks Las Olas!

laserRob
Jul. 1, 2011, 12:17 AM
Sold Without Pedigree..............

Watch for a few 'incomplete' following Churchill's recent storm.

Loose horses create baby forces........:lol:

witherbee
Jul. 1, 2011, 09:54 AM
I've never gone the SWP route, but wish I had on a gelding... I love to have the papers, so always offer them and just put a ReRun sticker on them, but it has bitten me in the butt in the past, so I completely understand why it is done.

moonriverfarm
Jul. 1, 2011, 10:50 AM
My super gelding was SWP to the person I bought him from 11 years ago. No papers no way says the JC although I did speak to a VERY nice woman who did give me enough info to at least verify the horse's name abd birthday. Then i was able to look up his pedigree, which was very impressive BTW! Most of the OTTBs I have bought since then, and there were many, came with papers; some with NOT FOR RACING written on them ( a no-no) but mostly just ready to transfer. I kinda like the exclusivity of the JC and the fact that they stand on the old school rules. So many entities morph to please the masses or be PC , so I respect them for holding on to their position.

judybigredpony
Jul. 3, 2011, 09:39 AM
came with papers; some with NOT FOR RACING written on them ( a no-no)

Why is this a No-No...I buy OTTB all the time w/ Papers totally defaced w/ permanat marker to prevent them from ever ending up racing again...and fillies w/ "For Breeding" only written on the margins or across back.

Laurierace
Jul. 3, 2011, 10:20 AM
Why is this a No-No...I buy OTTB all the time w/ Papers totally defaced w/ permanat marker to prevent them from ever ending up racing again...and fillies w/ "For Breeding" only written on the margins or across back.

That doesn't prevent anything. It is defacement and the owner can get a duplicate set. The only way to prevent racing is to send the papers back as sold without pedigree. There is no way to prevent breeding except sold with out pedigree but that just prevents the foal's from being registered not the actual breeding itself.

judybigredpony
Jul. 3, 2011, 12:20 PM
Hmmm...have had Race Secretary turn back papers that were defaced and yeah you can get duplicates but you usually need a sellers letter and noterized.
Not as easy as it used to be...

Fillies sold for "breeding only" were to prevent them from being raced not bred....A number of Sports horse registried require mares proof of registration not just a tattoo

I would prefer to lobby for limited papers like in dogs that are a diffrent color...you return your orginals when horses race career is over... and have a re-issue that is say Orange and its for show or breeding only NOT TO RACE...That way everyone is satisfied..the buyer who wants some sort of JC papers and the seller who can control the horse not racing again.

EponaRoan
Jul. 3, 2011, 01:36 PM
You can write anything you like on the papers (with crayons or a sharpie even) but it doesn't do a damn thing. The only thing that will stop a horse from being raced or producing offspring that can be registered (barring gelding/spaying) is sending in the papers and having the horse marked as without pedigree which removes them from the JC registry.

And yes, it would be nice if the JC would change thing so that another sort of papers can be issued that would keep the horse from being raced and/or being bred, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

witherbee
Jul. 7, 2011, 12:04 PM
I like that idea Judybigredpony. The writing or stickers will not stop anything - they have to be returned to the JC in order to be sure the horse will not be raced.

Isn't it sold with out papers? They will always have their "pedigree"...

Laurierace
Jul. 7, 2011, 01:28 PM
I like that idea Judybigredpony. The writing or stickers will not stop anything - they have to be returned to the JC in order to be sure the horse will not be raced.

Isn't it sold with out papers? They will always have their "pedigree"...

Actually they don't have a pedigree in the JC's eyes if the papers are returned SWP. You can breed a TB and register it's offspring as a TB without having papers. You can not register their foals if SWP. So in essence they are not TBs anymore for TB breeding and racing purposes.

moonriverfarm
Jul. 7, 2011, 03:55 PM
I'm not in the racing business and the people I get horses from know that; however, one or two horses did come with defaced papers. :confused:

Gnalli
Jul. 15, 2011, 04:57 PM
Educate me here. Why would an owner specify "for breeding only" or "not to be raced". Why would they give a flip? If they want to control the horse, keep it for themselves.

judybigredpony
Jul. 15, 2011, 05:21 PM
Educate me here. Why would an owner specify "for breeding only" or "not to be raced". Why would they give a flip? If they want to control the horse, keep it for themselves.

Why so a horse @ the age of 6 or 7 who has paid his dues and ran a butt load of starts doesn't end up running his legs off @ some low end track. They SOLD the horse to get a new life. For younger horses w/ little promise its the same...and a smidge of ego issues thrown in

Why so some unsound filly who is breed worthy gets a chance to reproduce and not race because she is most likely has a unsoundness ans shouldn't be ridden, so sold to Breed only.

Why because its their horse and they get to dictate the terms of the sale and if you don't like it buy another one from some where else..

judybigredpony
Jul. 15, 2011, 05:24 PM
I like that idea Judybigredpony. The writing or stickers will not stop anything - they have to be returned to the JC in order to be sure the horse will not be raced.

Isn't it sold with out papers? They will always have their "pedigree"...

Yes they will always have their pedigree but no papers and only a tattoo or JC name...but thier DNA was done...

Gnalli
Jul. 15, 2011, 05:35 PM
Why so a horse @ the age of 6 or 7 who has paid his dues and ran a butt load of starts doesn't end up running his legs off @ some low end track. They SOLD the horse to get a new life. For younger horses w/ little promise its the same...and a smidge of ego issues thrown in

Why so some unsound filly who is breed worthy gets a chance to reproduce and not race because she is most likely has a unsoundness ans shouldn't be ridden, so sold to Breed only.

Why because its their horse and they get to dictate the terms of the sale and if you don't like it buy another one from some where else..

Ok. Fair enough. I didn't realize that there were even races for older horses. Thanks for the answer. Race horses are not my thing, so I know just enough about them in general to be stupid.

danceronice
Jul. 15, 2011, 07:23 PM
You're that worried about it, put it down or vet your sellers like you're recruiting for the CIA.

You sell the horse, you sold it. You have zero rights regarding it the minute you cash the check. I cannot go tell the guy I sold my car to that he can't use it for a demolition derby or turn it into an art car--I don't own it any more. Defacing the papers or ruining its value as a registered horse just means you're just making the horse more worthless when that buyer needs to move it on.

judybigredpony
Jul. 15, 2011, 09:40 PM
Well I don't ask for papers on geldings they are worthless...seriously give me 3 good reasons for them on a 7yr gelding, where you really need them...

Its the current owners perogative...and unlike a car they are not needed to prove ownership or yearly registration or insurance. Bill of sale, JC name and Tattoo can provide all of that.

Selling a horse to a new life off the track is just that a non racing home and to find the horse potentially back ginding away a year or 2 later is unacceptable. if you wanted to sell the horse to race home you market it and look for that.

danceronice
Jul. 15, 2011, 09:57 PM
You want to sell a horse. Full stop. (And other people have pointed out why they want papers for show prospects.)

What happens to private property is the owner's business. The seller has no rights at all once they take the money. I can do whatever I want with my house--the people I bought it from have no say. I can do whatever I want with my car. The previous owner doesn't get a vote. I could race my horse if I wanted (and if I were stupid; he was retired because he wasn't making money at Finger Lakes, he's not going to make it worth my while anywhere.) I do not take any horse with conditions. If people want to have a vote in what happens, they have to put up the cash.

You sell it, it's NOT YOURS. It's no longer any of your business. Trying to weasel around it by withholding papers is like "rescues" wanting inspections and check-ins for the rest of the horse's life--if it matters that much, you keep it and you keep paying for it.

judybigredpony
Jul. 15, 2011, 10:46 PM
Guess you don't sell much realestate, have you heard the Term "Deed Restricted"??...I sold a house the was restricted to me having 1st right of refusel to meet or beat any bonified legitamet offer upon resale w/ in a specified length of time...oh and it held up in a court of law.....you can do restrictions...a good lawyer drawn contract and/or return the papers to the JC...end of story...

And seriously you do not need the papers to show ...with exception in a Breed Division such as USEF/USDF class for year end points and awards.

EponaRoan
Jul. 15, 2011, 10:46 PM
Isn't it sold with out papers? They will always have their "pedigree"...

Sold without pedigree is the Jockey Club's term for it. See:

http://www.jockeyclub.com/registry.asp?section=3#eighteen

Schatzi09
Jul. 16, 2011, 08:34 AM
Guess you don't sell much realestate, have you heard the Term "Deed Restricted"??...I sold a house the was restricted to me having 1st right of refusel to meet or beat any bonified legitamet offer upon resale w/ in a specified length of time...oh and it held up in a court of law.....you can do restrictions...a good lawyer drawn contract and/or return the papers to the JC...end of story...

And seriously you do not need the papers to show ...with exception in a Breed Division such as USEF/USDF class for year end points and awards.

Actually, if you're buying a mare for breeding purposes, most warmblood registries want the mare's JC papers to even be considered for inspection and acceptance. If you can't produce those papers, then you've just made that mare a little less useful to the sport horse community.

It would be great if JC could issue papers of a different color - or if the warmblood registries would accept a pedigree from a search with DNA to verify. It sounds like it might be easier to get the WB registries to change rather than the JC though!

5
Jul. 16, 2011, 09:46 AM
Just a suggestion but ...

If they have tattoos you can find out their name & age.

with that you can see if they are listed on allbreedpedigreee.

Or more time consuming find the original breeder and explain the situation to them a good breeder will take a horse back.

The old owner sounds like a piece of work. Perhaps you could buy his notorised permission to release the JC papers

Sing Mia Song
Jul. 16, 2011, 10:02 AM
What happens to private property is the owner's business. The seller has no rights at all once they take the money. I can do whatever I want with my house--the people I bought it from have no say. I can do whatever I want with my car. The previous owner doesn't get a vote. I could race my horse if I wanted...{snip}



Which is exactly why a certain winning trainer (now deceased) used to send all his finished horses straight to slaughter, no matter who was standing in the wings to take them back and retire them. I'd rather have SWP than a useful horse go to slaughter.

I'm not anti-slaughter and I don't want to turn this into that discussion. I'm just pointing out that SWP offers a viable option for people who want to make sure the horse doesn't go back to the track. I know a lot of horses who were sound enough to be useful pleasure or low-level sport horses, but for whom running again would have been potentially catastrophic.

Madeline
Jul. 16, 2011, 02:26 PM
Has no one ever heard of Xerox? Though it would not serve for those who want to breed WB's, how about making a copy of the actual papers, marking them that the horse is SWP, giving the copy to the buyer and the real ones to the JC? That way the new owner has proof of his horse's age, breed, etc, and the seller knows the horse is not going back to the races. A copy should be enough to get a horse into breed restricted classes. And maybe you should reconsider breeding the SWP mare...

Barnfairy
Jul. 16, 2011, 03:18 PM
Has no one ever heard of Xerox? This is exactly what the person from whom I bought my first TB mare did. Gave me a copy of the papers for ID purposes, while retaining the originals so that the mare would never race or produce racing babies. Worked for me!

Flying Ponies
Jul. 16, 2011, 03:34 PM
Thanks everyone for the opinions and experiences!

I agree that in a perfect world, the JC should offer "papers of a different color" simply to offer proof of who the horse is. Obviously, not as much of an issue for those with a tattoo. Unfortunately tho', my mare does not have a tattoo- but at least I got her name.

When I spoke with the JC, they flatly refused to help me ID her in her any way. I offered to pay for a DNA testing comparison to the DNA they received when she was registered , WITH the caveat that I would STILL not get the official papers- I just wanted proof positive of her pedigree. Refused. Refused. Refused.

I understand the reasons behind selling a horse as SWP - but they should offer some substitute ID papers. After all, it is not as if the horse NEVER existed!