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View Full Version : Reiner Klimke/Ahlerich Demonstrating Passage/Piaffe



Mike Matson
Jun. 29, 2011, 06:52 PM
So, what do you see in this video that's different from what you see today?

http://youtu.be/fBq5rJM4XvI

alicen
Jun. 29, 2011, 07:43 PM
Goodness, that dropped noseband is low.

allison finch
Jun. 29, 2011, 07:47 PM
Poll is the highest point, the horse never rolls behind the vertical. SOOOO nice to see, again.

Carol O
Jun. 29, 2011, 08:01 PM
I like the soft expression and chewing of the bit. They are both quite relaxed. It looks easy!

netg
Jun. 29, 2011, 08:51 PM
Biggest thing to me was lack of lowering of the haunches, which to me made the piaffe look softer. I did a quick google search and couldn't find when the rules change was on that one.


Overall, the head position is slightly different, but he still has the suppleness through his body which is so important today. As much as I love the idea of purely classical dressage, very often looking at videos of old rides there is less suppleness and more muscle on the underside of the neck.

Carol Ames
Jun. 29, 2011, 11:51 PM
no one could/ would say "the rider has to lift weights to hold in:eek: this horse":no: Klimke even says "the horse must work, not the rider:no:"

Carol Ames
Jun. 29, 2011, 11:54 PM
It's all in a:cool: snaffle.!

Carol Ames
Jun. 30, 2011, 12:00 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1jF4E4QnAg&NR=1

Velvet
Jun. 30, 2011, 12:32 AM
A little late to the party, aren't you? I mean, Mike, we already just finished a long discussion on good piaffe and passage and Reiner was included. Guess it's your turn to come and start something late. :lol:

Behind the 8 Ball
Jun. 30, 2011, 06:41 AM
Goodness, that dropped noseband is low.

It is meant to be, it is a "dropped" noseband. Not for e very horse but they can be more effective and kinder than the flash and cavesson set up.

I was watching the seat or Dr. Klimke and am inspired to sit quieter ( again). I watched again and concentrated on hands, I have goals.
I watched a third time and was watching the horse and was reminded of the basic tenet of dressage " A willing submission to the riders aids". This horse/rider should have received 10s for this collective mark.

Oberon13
Jun. 30, 2011, 08:31 AM
Soft, willing horse and amazingly quiet rider...no "pumping" up and down with the seat.

Also, the piaffe is truly a piaffe...not a "passage in place."

Those are the difference I see in one, cursory viewing. Boy, I'm glad I'm headed to the barn this evening to ride. On days when I can't get there, and I view these kinds of videos, it nearly KILLS me that I can't get on my horse that day! :)

alicen
Jun. 30, 2011, 08:47 AM
It is meant to be, it is a "dropped" noseband. Not for e very horse but they can be more effective and kinder than the flash and cavesson set up.

Back in the day, there were dropped nosebands and then there were dropped nosebands.

And what if Mr. Mateson had offered this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKbqokuTzh8 at 6:01.

Mike Matson
Jun. 30, 2011, 10:11 AM
A little late to the party, aren't you? I mean, Mike, we already just finished a long discussion on good piaffe and passage and Reiner was included. Guess it's your turn to come and start something late. :lol:

I see you missed an important part of the video I posted vs. the thread you referenced. I'll give you some time to noodle it through and figure it out.

Valentina_32926
Jun. 30, 2011, 10:15 AM
Biggest thing I noticed was the regular cadence and engagement of the hind end. Too many time in piaffe we see the hocks hardly bending at all and the hind legs barely clearing the ground while the 2 beat cadence become more like 4 beats.

Rider also has his legs back yet (to keep hind end engaged) and is NOT wearing spurs nor spurring the horse at every stride - which is apparently the norm now. :mad:

Lovely video - Thanks Mike!

Mike Matson
Jun. 30, 2011, 10:22 AM
You are welcome. It's a brand new video, just recently posted. Glad folks are enjoying it and seeing The Master at work. :)

Mike Matson
Jun. 30, 2011, 10:30 AM
And for those wanting to know what is said in the video (thanks to a translation on another BB):

Reiner Klimke points out that the tail is carried in a relaxed fashion. He emphasizes that the aids have to be quiet and invisible and the seat has to be quiet so that the rider doesn't disturb the horse. The rider is also expected to let the horse get on with it without interference by the rider. He then says riding this way means very little physical effort is required of the rider. And the praise at the end he terms an 'aid'.

LarkspurCO
Jun. 30, 2011, 10:32 AM
And what if Mr. Mateson had offered this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKbqokuTzh8 at 6:01.

Lots of spurring and pumping going on in this one. Ahlerich must have been very tired.

The schooling piaffe is so much nicer.

mjhco
Jun. 30, 2011, 12:20 PM
Lots of spurring and pumping going on in this one. Ahlerich must have been very tired.

The schooling piaffe is so much nicer.

No kidding!

For anyone who has SCHOOLED the passage and piaffe then COMPETED the passage and piaffe knows that the timing and placement of the schooling versus competing is completely different.

You can SCHOOL whenever you feel the horse and rider is ready. The balance is perfect. The timing is perfect. The conditions are perfect.

When you COMPETE you must demonstrate the passage and piaffe as the test requires whether or not all the stars are lined up in the universe.

I certainly wish I could have the judges come see us and score us while schooling rather than in the ring.

mjhco
Jun. 30, 2011, 12:23 PM
Biggest thing I noticed was the regular cadence and engagement of the hind end. Too many time in piaffe we see the hocks hardly bending at all and the hind legs barely clearing the ground while the 2 beat cadence become more like 4 beats.

Rider also has his legs back yet (to keep hind end engaged) and is NOT wearing spurs nor spurring the horse at every stride - which is apparently the norm now. :mad:

Lovely video - Thanks Mike!

Look again. He IS wearing spurs.

Velvet
Jun. 30, 2011, 12:35 PM
I see you missed an important part of the video I posted vs. the thread you referenced. I'll give you some time to noodle it through and figure it out.

Um, no. It fits with the other thread as an example of piaffe and passage. Nothing more, nothing less. Tack doesn't make this any different from what was discussed in the other thread.

Maybe you should noodle on that...

Kyzteke
Jun. 30, 2011, 12:35 PM
Mike, you seem to have access to lots of videos...do you have one of the test ridden by that Hungarian guy (I think he is Hungarian) on the gray horse at the Volvo Cup in LA at least 10 yrs ago? Sorry I can't remember anyone's name, but I'm old...:winkgrin:

Anyway, it was the only time I ever saw this team compete, but they just blew me away. Klimke was there on Biotop, as was AVG and IW (naturally AVG won).

The horse was very baroque looking and I remember being very impressed by the test....could not figure out for the life of me why they placed AVG & IW ahead of both this guy AND Klimke.

If you have it, could you please post it on the thread I started about "Show me a GREAT P & P" ? I'd like to see if the test was really as good as I recall....

Thanks!

Mike Matson
Jun. 30, 2011, 12:45 PM
I have it. I'll send it to you via PM. I was there at the 1995 World Cup and saw him compete. The video is of another event.

raff
Jun. 30, 2011, 01:13 PM
Nothing is new anymore http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=138034

Kyzteke
Jun. 30, 2011, 01:24 PM
This horse/rider should have received 10s for this collective mark.

I respectively disagree. Compared to the the guidelines of USDF, the piaffe is weak in terms of dropping the hindquarters (almost zero drop) and the lifting of the hind legs. The hoof is suppose to be raised to the the height of mid-cannon bone on the opposite leg. In this example, they miss that by quite abit.

They are strong in terms of lightness, expression, rhythm and balance...but "10" means perfect execution of the movement (or at least pretty darn close) and this example was certainly not that.

However I was reminded once again what an elegant and effective rider Klimke was and yet so light. He makes it all look almost effortless.

What a loss to the dressage community that he died so young...

Kyzteke
Jun. 30, 2011, 01:26 PM
I have it. I'll send it to you via PM. I was there at the 1995 World Cup and saw him compete. The video is of another event.

Any reason you can't post it on that thread? And what the heck was everyone's name? I swear, I need a brain transplant....:(

Lost_at_C
Jun. 30, 2011, 02:13 PM
Any reason you can't post it on that thread? And what the heck was everyone's name? I swear, I need a brain transplant....:(

Do you mean Gyulla Dallos and Aktion by any chance? I'm getting old too, but they must have made quite an impression on me because the name just popped into my head. Apologies if this isn't who you mean.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3KCOv1y-I4

Mike Matson
Jun. 30, 2011, 02:17 PM
Here you go: Gyula Dallos on Aktion. There is some footage of the '95 World Cup and the piaffe/passage.

http://youtu.be/JMwCGKt4oIU

You can cut and past to the other thread. I'm worried Velvet will hit me over the head with a roller pin if I do. ;)

Velvet
Jun. 30, 2011, 02:41 PM
Mike, I think you just like feeling special . :yes: I'm not the reason you won't post it on the other thread, so don't blame me. In fact, I've been attempting to prod/encourage (no rolling pins yet) you to move over to K's thread since that's really the best place for these links since they dove tail into the piaffe and passage discussion. You just don't want to go because it will no longer be all about you, you, you--and people will think you are no longer a real dressage queen. :lol:

Kyzteke
Jun. 30, 2011, 03:03 PM
Do you mean Gyulla Dallos and Aktion by any chance? I'm getting old too, but they must have made quite an impression on me because the name just popped into my head. Apologies if this isn't who you mean.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3KCOv1y-I4

Thank you!! You must have read my mind (and I apologize for what you saw while you were there....:lol:)

Mike Matson
Jun. 30, 2011, 06:33 PM
"Hey, is that Velvet leading Mikey around by the nose?" :yes:

Behind the 8 Ball
Jun. 30, 2011, 08:46 PM
I respectively disagree. Compared to the the guidelines of USDF, the piaffe is weak in terms of dropping the hindquarters (almost zero drop) and the lifting of the hind legs. The hoof is suppose to be raised to the the height of mid-cannon bone on the opposite leg. In this example, they miss that by quite abit.

They are strong in terms of lightness, expression, rhythm and balance...but "10" means perfect execution of the movement (or at least pretty darn close) and this example was certainly not that.

However I was reminded once again what an elegant and effective rider Klimke was and yet so light. He makes it all look almost effortless.

What a loss to the dressage community that he died so young...

And I respectfully reply I was commenting on the "willing submission" as pertains to the collective marks for a test, not the execution of a movement. Yes, I agree that the piaffe does not meet the letter of the ideal but the overall impression, the submission and the riders seat and use and effectiveness of aids would certainly garner him top marks.
I could ride every minute of the rest of my life under the best tutelage available and I despair that I would ( will ) never ride with the elegance, tact and beauty of the sorely missed Dr. Klimke. You and I are in complete agreement as to the lesser place the dressage community is without him.

dragonharte8
Jun. 30, 2011, 08:57 PM
Originally Posted by Kyzteke
I respectively disagree. Compared to the the guidelines of USDF, the piaffe is weak in terms of dropping the hindquarters (almost zero drop) and the lifting of the hind legs.

Rule change was because fewer and fewer riders could get the horses to do a correct piaffe, which requires the hind canon bones to come 'slightly' under while the fore canon bones are vertical directly under.

This 'modern' on the circus tub piaffe is actually the movement into levade and therefore is not piaffe.