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dragonharte8
Jun. 28, 2011, 10:52 PM
Yes, we have discussed and argued to death the 'on the bit' frame requirement.

However, I just reviewed the July issue of Dressage Today which contained some great articles, yet it is the images presented that concern me.

The Clinic by Axel Steiner, My Definition of a Half Halt by Courtney King-Dye [great article], Level Appropriate Balance by Pam Goodrich and The Hot Horse by Lauren Sprieser, all present images which are contradictions of the requirements.

Would it not be more appropriate for the images to contain horses that are generally more in the correct frame?

I ask this because even at the lower levels the 'on the bit' frame is required with the caveat of the poll being the highest point according to level of training.

Elegante E
Jun. 28, 2011, 11:02 PM
Historically, I've found this a problem with the mag's pics, most especially for articles discussing contact and position. Not sure why it's such a problem.

dragonharte8
Jun. 28, 2011, 11:47 PM
Elegante E;
Photographs are submitted by the article writers and the photographers they use.
However, that being said, any print media has editorial content rights and that includes photographs presented for publication.
I would think that since Dressage Today is the dressage publication for the U. S. that it would take a stance for photographs being presented that represent the correctness demanded by the rules of dressage.
I know so many individuals who are dressage addicted that find the same frustration I have with the images being presented, even with very well written articles.

LarkspurCO
Jun. 29, 2011, 02:41 AM
I haven't read the magazine, but do you mean behind the vertical, and poll lowered, like this?

http://tucsoncitizen.com/morgue/files/2008/01/l1200065517.jpg

I noticed in one of the SRS videos posted in another thread here this week that a few of the horses were often doing the dreaded BTV.

... Ah, here it is, from the draw reins thread. Lovely performance, but I did notice this, especially from the lead horse in the beginning. He is "curled" off and on throughout the performance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYThblo74hg

I still enjoyed it and did not see that it hindered the performance one bit. I guess even the SRS is not always perfect.

Regarding still photos, notice that in canter there is often a moment in the downward phase of the stride where the head and neck lower and the head comes behind the vertical. If you capture that moment, the picture might falsely impune a correctly moving horse.

That is not to say the photos in the magazine were not incorrect, but I do sense that people obsess a lot about this sort of stuff when really they should be out learning to do it better.

kjaanbutt
Jun. 29, 2011, 04:12 AM
Maybe I just don't know how to cue her?
I KNOW she is physically able to do it, because the horse in the picture is her.
This is her (allbreedpedigree page, look at image):

Petstorejunkie
Jun. 29, 2011, 09:00 AM
okay, fine, I'll play.
The Clinic article, both those riders are at the beginnings of entering Training Level, and it's their first time out. Technically, if you crop the button braids off the first one, the horse is poll high in a lengthened shape appropriate for training level. The second horse (imho of course) is a little long in the shape and could be hh'd up a bit. not low in the poll but a bit strung out to be really effective.

CCD's horse in the HH article is really nicely engaged but (imho) her hand position could come up and with it would the horses front end. BUT I think moreso it's that moment in time giving that illusion.

I thought the level appropriate article was fantastic! Pam is collapsed a tad in the ribcage in a few pics, but I'm not going to give directives to someone of her caliber, and let's face it, girl ain't 20, she can slouch. Nuno slouched. I won't but they can

I didn't read the article on calming a hot horse, because frankly I find that counter productive. Hot equals responsive. the goal should not be to calm, but to encourage the horse to want to be attentive. I only work with hot horses, so no point in reading for me really.

dragonharte8
Jun. 29, 2011, 09:29 AM
Ah, the momentary observation.

Ok, I agree that there are moments when a horse does drop and go btv, {my mare does to evade} however, the volume of images we are shown with horses in this position would suggest that horses are always going btv on their own. That would suggest the schooling is not being done correctly, as horses normally would not like their heads in that position for any period of time.

Is this not a fair observation?

quietann
Jun. 29, 2011, 10:00 AM
Ah, the momentary observation.

Ok, I agree that there are moments when a horse does drop and go btv, {my mare does to evade} however, the volume of images we are shown with horses in this position would suggest that horses are always going btv on their own. That would suggest the schooling is not being done correctly, as horses normally would not like their heads in that position for any period of time.

Is this not a fair observation?

As the owner of an inveterate curler (a Morgan, as one of the DT horses was), sometimes I think they DO prefer to carry their heads that way. Yes, it's an evasion, of course, but mine will do this even with a much better rider. Getting her to stretch *out* is tough.

alicen
Jun. 29, 2011, 10:29 AM
That would suggest the schooling is not being done correctly, as horses normally would not like their heads in that position for any period of time.

If we're going to school by the horse's preferred head position then we should be doing this http://wn.com/Western_pleasure because it more closely resembles this http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2274/2395776334_b065de9513.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.flickr.com/photos/14028823%40N02/2395776334/&usg=__PQXo6tGYkIlOWjOg_A_X7XSi-JM=&h=500&w=444&sz=214&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=kuk9KzS1gNcaoM:&tbnh=97&tbnw=84&ei=qjULTqXuCcnm0QGY19ipAQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhorses%2Bgrazing%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%2 6rlz%3D1W1GGLG_en%26biw%3D1016%26bih%3D493%26tbm%3 Disch&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=118&vpy=140&dur=125&hovh=238&hovw=212&tx=108&ty=193&page=1&ndsp=12&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0&biw=1016&bih=493

dragonharte8
Jun. 29, 2011, 10:42 AM
Alicen,
Your point is taken, however, we must use images of the traveling horse not the grazing horse. :D

DutchDressageQueen
Jul. 1, 2011, 10:10 PM
Hot equals responsive. the goal should not be to calm, but to encourage the horse to want to be attentive.

This

CFFarm
Jul. 3, 2011, 07:56 AM
I think it's as simple as "Do as I say, not as I do". Happens a lot in dressage training.

angel
Jul. 3, 2011, 10:32 AM
Dressage Today has used incorrect pictures for as long as I can remember. This is not limited to horses going behind vertical, but also extends to how some of the movements are performed.

I have to say that trying to take a good picture at the correct moment is really an art, and one that I know I do not possess.:lol:

I would suggest, however, that most dressage riders have been exposed to incorrect head position for so long, that if you were to see a horse correctly "on the bit", you would remark that the horse was not. Today, most riders tend to think that it is the front of the horse's profile that is supposed to be vertical with the ground. Not so! The horse's nose should be slightly in front of vertical when the head is balanced correctly. It is the line from the poll to the corner of the mouth, which is basically the line of the cheekpiece, that is supposed to be vertical.

At those moments such as previously mentioned as to the downward stride of the canter where the horse curls, this is totally rider error. The horse curls because at that moment it is taking too much weight on its balancing front leg. The curl is to put weight of the cranium in front of the horse so as to help extend the base of support and keep the horse from falling foward. Generally, the cause is that the rider's seat is not riding the suspension of the gait correctly, and this is actually putting the horse on the forehand within the gait.

We can say that these pictures are just "moments in time," and so they are. But, when all you see are incorrect pictures...well, all I can say is there certainly are a lot of incorrect moments, even in the upper levels. Makes me wonder if any of us, myself included, ever do it right.:no:

colorfan
Jul. 3, 2011, 10:49 AM
Angel, I think I have a tendancy to do what you have suggested. Any thoughts on how to ride more balanced to prevent this?

thank you

angel
Jul. 3, 2011, 03:33 PM
A lot of the suscess in riding the suspension has to do with putting your own body into balance, i.e. your pelvis rounded under slightly in order for it to be in a neutral position, and for your shoulders to be carried back close to your spine, rather as if it were a chilly, but invigorating spring day. Your chest expands and opens. Can you feel that spring day? There is no tension to hold your shoulder back. Only the expanded ribcage, the toned abdominals, allows them to just hang there.

Once you are in a correct position, you must learn to stay with the motion. It is easier in the canter because the canter only swings one direction, not both directions as the trot does. To get a bit of an idea of how your seat must interact with the saddle, sit at the edge of your bed. Use your seat to compress downward that edge and come up to a neutral position again. Push down, and come back....never does your seat leave the bed. If your pelvis is tipping forward any, you will not be able to do this in a saddle without falling forward as evidenced by your shoulder blades pulling away from your spine. When you are riding the suspension in canter correctly, you will never feel a little flop at the end of each canter stride.

LarkspurCO
Jul. 3, 2011, 04:42 PM
At those moments such as previously mentioned as to the downward stride of the canter where the horse curls, this is totally rider error. The horse curls because at that moment it is taking too much weight on its balancing front leg.

If it is rider error, then the greatest riders in the world were/are making the same error on a regular basis. This includes Klimke in his 1984 Olympic gold medal ride, as well as the SRS riders in every video I've seen yet.



The curl is to put weight of the cranium in front of the horse so as to help extend the base of support and keep the horse from falling foward. Generally, the cause is that the rider's seat is not riding the suspension of the gait correctly, and this is actually putting the horse on the forehand within the gait.

Given Mr. Klimke's "centaur" seat, not to mention the SRS riders, I can't agree with this.

Even the most collected horse in the most collected canter, in the final beat of the canter, is technically on the forehand. That is to say, with only one front foot on the ground, the hind end cannot be bearing an ounce of the horse's weight.

Maybe you are right and even the best upper-level rides are full of "incorrect" moments, but as a nobody adult amateur, I can sleep at night knowing this will never be a problem I will have to live with.:lol:

Equibrit
Jul. 3, 2011, 05:33 PM
So - why did the OP stop using the "spirithorse" handle ?
Now I have to add another name to my ignore list.