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View Full Version : Anyone else see this- study on "bleeders"



ASB Stars
Jun. 25, 2011, 08:37 PM
I found this fascinating- largely because the Europeans. and nw South Africans, are so much more proactive about health issues, as well as welfare issues, in the Thoroughbreds that race there.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/63571/study-eiph-is-an-inherited-trait

Doncha just wonder who those families are...:lol:

beaujolais
Jun. 26, 2011, 02:45 AM
Yes, I saw that and was absolutely wondering what lines they were.

tradewind
Jun. 26, 2011, 09:07 AM
I read it, I while I feel its helpful, and not surprising to me that it is hereditary. It really slams the use of anti bleeding medication also. However, if you don't know who to avoid using how are you supposed to clean up the gene pool, just by a wild guess?

Maythehorsebewithme
Jun. 26, 2011, 10:52 AM
Well, what do you expect? If you don't select against bleeders, bleeders enter the gene pool. Of course, the same goes for any meds that cover a genetic weakness, including NSAIDS.

Blinkers On
Jun. 26, 2011, 02:38 PM
I bred a bleeder to a bleeder and expect to get a bleeder. They all bleed. ALL. QH, Arabs, morgans CC horses, cutting horses.. you name it, they bleed. We treat it, try to prevent it and manage it as best we can. SA and Europe send us their bleeders.. they can't run on medication. So they dispose of their "junk" to us.
People seem to think that it is smiply a stress thing when it is really a physiological response. And though stress does play a role so to anatomy and physiology.
No matter who you breed to isn't going to change anatomy and physiology. It's not going to change what happens inside of a horse when moving.

FairWeather
Jun. 26, 2011, 04:17 PM
I bred a bleeder to a bleeder and expect to get a bleeder. They all bleed. ALL. QH, Arabs, morgans CC horses, cutting horses.. you name it, they bleed. We treat it, try to prevent it and manage it as best we can. SA and Europe send us their bleeders.. they can't run on medication. So they dispose of their "junk" to us.
Then how do the Europeans run horses without Lasix successfully?

Blinkers On
Jun. 26, 2011, 04:47 PM
They don't scope? And those they do come to the US?? Just a guess...
There are a great many ways to manage bleeders. Herbs (as simple as sheherd's purse), adjunct bleeder meds. whatever... When those fail they end up here. Because we can treat/manage the issue successfully. The remaining issue is that all horses funtion the same internally and thus they bleed. Physiology dictates Do your research.

On the Farm
Jun. 26, 2011, 04:48 PM
Then how do the Europeans run horses without Lasix successfully?

Maybe you should ask the European trainers what they give. Just because the Europeans don't give lasix doesn't mean that their horses don't bleed and ours in the US do because we use lasix.

My question is whether we want to endanger a horse's well being (and even its life) by banning a proven (and affordable) medication for preventive purposes.

Blinkers On
Jun. 26, 2011, 05:03 PM
Agree

Laurierace
Jun. 26, 2011, 05:31 PM
Maybe you should ask the European trainers what they give. Just because the Europeans don't give lasix doesn't mean that their horses don't bleed and ours in the US do because we use lasix.

My question is whether we want to endanger a horse's well being (and even its life) by banning a proven (and affordable) medication for preventive purposes.

I couldn't agree more. I would hate to see a return to the days of drawing horses by non-drug means.

Calamber
Jun. 26, 2011, 06:44 PM
Maybe you should ask the European trainers what they give. Just because the Europeans don't give lasix doesn't mean that their horses don't bleed and ours in the US do because we use lasix.

My question is whether we want to endanger a horse's well being (and even its life) by banning a proven (and affordable) medication for preventive purposes.

This whole discussion is so bizarre. Do you think we are saving horses lives by routinely treating with Lasix? How on earth did we manage before the advent of Lasix? Are you saying that horses were dying because they bled without the use of Lasix? If so, where is the proof of that? Lasix is a diuretic by the way and has all of the aftereffects of a diuretic, such as flushing all fluids, leaving a critical shortage of electolytes, instabilities which lead to heart attacks, and all manners of nutritional imbalances which can cause tissue, tendon, muscular and ligament weaknesses. It probably is not a good idea to just blanket ban the use since it has been used as such a crutch, but to think that horses bleed enough to choke their breathing due to physical exertion is just ludicrous. There are other reasons and no harm investigating whether the biological predisposition is genetic. Even if it proves not to be, there is something wrong with using a diuretic everytime before the exertion of racing as a pro forma method. Just so bizarre to me this way of thinking.

FairWeather
Jun. 26, 2011, 08:31 PM
Maybe you should ask the European trainers what they give. Just because the Europeans don't give lasix doesn't mean that their horses don't bleed and ours in the US do because we use lasix.


It was a genuine question. I don't know very much about European racing.

How many horses do you think start out their careers in Europe then end up in the US?

Why don't upper level eventers bleed more often?

Genuine questions.

On the Farm
Jun. 27, 2011, 04:47 AM
This whole discussion is so bizarre. Do you think we are saving horses lives by routinely treating with Lasix? How on earth did we manage before the advent of Lasix? Are you saying that horses were dying because they bled without the use of Lasix? If so, where is the proof of that? Lasix is a diuretic by the way and has all of the aftereffects of a diuretic, such as flushing all fluids, leaving a critical shortage of electolytes, instabilities which lead to heart attacks, and all manners of nutritional imbalances which can cause tissue, tendon, muscular and ligament weaknesses. It probably is not a good idea to just blanket ban the use since it has been used as such a crutch, but to think that horses bleed enough to choke their breathing due to physical exertion is just ludicrous. There are other reasons and no harm investigating whether the biological predisposition is genetic. Even if it proves not to be, there is something wrong with using a diuretic everytime before the exertion of racing as a pro forma method. Just so bizarre to me this way of thinking.

A horse does not have to "choke to death" on it's blood to be killed by EIPH. How does one treat an episode of bleeding, whether it's overtly noticeable or not? You give the horse antibiotics, because blood in the lungs can cause an infection, eventually abcess, probably advance to pneumonia, and can put a horse in the ground just as easily as a heart attack. That's a realistic circumstance and I'm just amazed that opponents of lasix ignore the aftereffects of a bleeding episode.

Calamber
Jun. 27, 2011, 09:21 AM
A horse does not have to "choke to death" on it's blood to be killed by EIPH. How does one treat an episode of bleeding, whether it's overtly noticeable or not? You give the horse antibiotics, because blood in the lungs can cause an infection, eventually abcess, probably advance to pneumonia, and can put a horse in the ground just as easily as a heart attack. That's a realistic circumstance and I'm just amazed that opponents of lasix ignore the aftereffects of a bleeding episode.

And why do they bleed, because they are born to bleed? You failed to answer the historical question though. This was not a problem in the past, and not because we did not have airway scopes. If the horse could not run, for whatever reason, they did not paste up the feet with bondo, cut the throat or stuff them with a diuretic. They were sent home to rest, recuperate on green grass, and maybe tried again. If not, they did not become a racehorse.

Laurierace
Jun. 27, 2011, 10:17 AM
The only way to know if a horse bled or not is to scope them, period. Horses have bled since the beginning of racing and people did some nasty crap to them to attempt to prevent it. Of all the ills in the world I would put a shot of lasix every few weeks so far down on the list that it would take several lifetimes to get to it.

Blinkers On
Jun. 27, 2011, 12:39 PM
Calamber, do you know anatomy and physiology and WHY horses bleed?? Do your research. They bleed. We manage it and try to prevent it.. We CANNOT change the physilological effects of exercise.
Horses with "issues" do become race horses. We can mangage it all.

Chicken Legs
Jun. 27, 2011, 12:45 PM
I found this fascinating- largely because the Europeans. and nw South Africans, are so much more proactive about health issues, as well as welfare issues, in the Thoroughbreds that race there.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/63571/study-eiph-is-an-inherited-trait

Doncha just wonder who those families are...:lol:

One of the prominent factors in the inherited aspect of bleeding is heart size. I was lucky enough to work for a group that scans hearts at sales and I learned a lot from them. Horses that have small hearts or decent sized hearts with thin walls have a hard time pumping blood throughout the body and especially the lungs.

There are a lot of horses out there with limited distance
capabilities due to heart size.

Lasix makes it so that many horses inferior hearts can race and some can be quite successful. But we have retired too many sires and mares to the breeding shed who bled.

Calamber
Jun. 27, 2011, 05:45 PM
Calamber, do you know anatomy and physiology and WHY horses bleed?? Do your research. They bleed. We manage it and try to prevent it.. We CANNOT change the physilological effects of exercise.
Horses with "issues" do become race horses. We can mangage it all.

Yes, I am aware why they bleed, thin tissues, inadequate cellular strength, perhaps the wrong management, poor bloodlines. Should I go on? You are just wrong about this, sorry to pop the bubble but we are breeding inferior horses on many levels and of course, being the drug addled country that we have become, that is the go to solution.

For someone who would like to call themselves a horseman or woman there is a requirement that one has a better understanding of life sciences and less dilletantism. Many are more than a little disoriented about the use of a diuretic as a performance management "tool". If you are so keen on physiology, why don't you run the blood/tissue parameters on your horse after utilizing Lasix, and no, I don't mean just the standard bullshit procedures done to determine whether a horse is hydrated or not. Tissue samples, vitamin and mineral disurbances and then tell me how that enhances a growing horse's (or really any horse) muscular strenth, tissue stability and strength, never mind the heart problems that come with the imbalances caused by electrolyte deficits and the complement of amino acid and subsequent endocrine disorders that can be caused by this. Ever wonder why so many TBs do so well on the use of Thyro-L and why? Tell me about (and it is called) 'physiology', in depth, if you are so well versed, please.

Very interesting Chicken Legs, unbelieveable that this type of information is not disseminated to more horsemen and women who actually do want to know, that is, those who are not hell bent for leather to defend poor and disastrous practices.

On the Farm
Jun. 27, 2011, 08:04 PM
And why do they bleed, because they are born to bleed? You failed to answer the historical question though. This was not a problem in the past, and not because we did not have airway scopes. If the horse could not run, for whatever reason, they did not paste up the feet with bondo, cut the throat or stuff them with a diuretic. They were sent home to rest, recuperate on green grass, and maybe tried again. If not, they did not become a racehorse.

You're wrong about it not being a problem in the past. In the 1908 edition of "The Veterinary Science," a condition is described which mirrors what we today call EIPH. Other than observing bleeding from the nostrils, detection methods were primitive, just as were the treatments--a tablespoon of turpentine mixed with linseed oil and syringed down the horse's throat.

Again, bleeding is not something as simple as "taking the horse home and turning it out." It's a potentially dangerous situation to the horse's well being and I'm an advocate of doing whatever we can to prevent EIPH in the first place. If reducing fluid in a horse's system helps prevent EIPH, would you advocate drawing a horse's water and hay the night before, throw a half-dozen woollies on him overnight, and let the animal sweat it out; or would you rather let the horse have a good night, enjoy a normal morning, and get an affordable/predictable medication a few hours from post time that achieves the same end?

On the Farm
Jun. 27, 2011, 08:11 PM
It was a genuine question. I don't know very much about European racing.

How many horses do you think start out their careers in Europe then end up in the US?

Why don't upper level eventers bleed more often?

Genuine questions.

Other than having a former employee who worked in England talk about giving horses supplements to combat EIPH, I don't know that much either. I think that's one thing that has been lost in this general argument--how do other jurisdictions deal with the condition?

Trainer and lasix advocate Rick Violette did make the statement that he could use a variety of supplements and other meds to combat EIPH, but they would cost an owner about $200 as opposed to the $20-$25 that lasix costs (and $5 dollars of that charge is for the vet to fill out paperwork for the stewards.

grayarabpony
Jun. 28, 2011, 12:07 AM
Honestly, some of you don't think that the *amount* that the horse bleeds is important, and that that particular quality may be determined by genetics?

Calamber
Jun. 28, 2011, 12:54 AM
You're wrong about it not being a problem in the past. In the 1908 edition of "The Veterinary Science," a condition is described which mirrors what we today call EIPH. Other than observing bleeding from the nostrils, detection methods were primitive, just as were the treatments--a tablespoon of turpentine mixed with linseed oil and syringed down the horse's throat.

Again, bleeding is not something as simple as "taking the horse home and turning it out." It's a potentially dangerous situation to the horse's well being and I'm an advocate of doing whatever we can to prevent EIPH in the first place. If reducing fluid in a horse's system helps prevent EIPH, would you advocate drawing a horse's water and hay the night before, throw a half-dozen woollies on him overnight, and let the animal sweat it out; or would you rather let the horse have a good night, enjoy a normal morning, and get an affordable/predictable medication a few hours from post time that achieves the same end?

So your reasoning is that because we used to use leeches in the past to cure many ills, and trepining, that the use of a better method or better methodology would be superceded by a short cut solution with such drastic side effects. Why do you not answer the question about what happens when you flush all the available fluids in a horse's body with a diuretic and then have it exert itself to the utmost. Is that too much to ask or think about? Just maybe if we asked the tougher questions we might get a qualitatively better solution. Although, if you are content that all is well with the throughbred industry and racing with it's dope addled advocates, I waste my breath.

It is inconceiveable to me to think that the breeding and management of the horses, never mind the use of a diuretic (try it some time on yourself and then let's talk after you have run a race in your "drawn down" state) have no effect on the abundance of horses (do the math on the numbers who run with Lasix) who run on this drug? You site one article from an old publication to prove that this is the best way to handle the problem? Do you think perhaps that since we sent a man to the moon, that we might, if we cared at all about the horse's longterm health, just might be able to come up with something else. I have more faith in research than you do apparently. If we disagree on this basic matter that there is more harm than good in the standard use of a duretic than all the tea in China would not get you to look at a better way.

Do you honestly think that the diference in the cost of the medications is why a diuretic is used? Please don't tell me your work is sports physiology or that you are a personal trainer.

It is only by advocating for change that a change will be found. Pacifism and apathy are a pathway to hell. I can only hope that the horses will find more who really want to think things through, for everyone's sake.

I also would like to know why more upper level eventers do not bleed, and why all of those horses that start in a rigorous competition like eventing would never be allowed to run on Lasix even if they did. I am serious as a heart attack.lol. I think the Europeans and the Australians just see us as drug pushers quite honestly.

On the Farm
Jun. 28, 2011, 05:20 AM
Calamber, please refrain from making statements on what I "believe" (take note of your 'leeches' comment.) State what you wish to state and I'll state what I believe, but please don't attribute to me comments or opinions that I neither made or don't have. Comprende muchacho (a)?

My comment on "The Veterinary Science" was not to judge treatments, it was simply a response to an overtly ignorant comment on the history of EIPH. If we can find better preventions/treatments for EIPH, I'm all for it, however the anti-lasix advocates seem to offer nothing in that regard, just insulting rhetoric.

Acertainsmile
Jun. 28, 2011, 11:32 AM
I've got the short answer (I think) on Eventers verses Racehorses...

First, I'm quite positive that there are 3 day horses that bleed, if it is escessive then they become something else. Plus the fact that the numbers of upper level horses is small compared to the number of horses running daily across North America (stats wise).

I also wonder how many of the Event horses (any level) do actually bleed some, but the riders don't recognize the signs if they are not bleeding out the nose. Thus, never being scoped.

And yes, the cost to treat bleeders without using Lasix is expensive if you go the "natural" route.

As far as using Lasix on myself, been there done that, and not as bad as you think. As long as you put back in what you've taken out.

Mara
Jun. 28, 2011, 12:20 PM
Someone on another board (I've long forgotten who it was) who spent years as an assistant trainer in England explained that the way European races are run may have a lot to do with why you don't see as much bleeding there, even without Lasix.

The real running is only in the latter stages of the race, for the most part - they run much slower fractions in the first, say, 1-1/8 miles of a 12 furlong race. So the horse gets a nice long warmup instead of a full-on assault to its cardiopulmonary systems. Compare that to US racing, where the earlier fractions are usually quicker.

I'm not sure how much truth there is to that, but it does make sense,

Acertainsmile
Jun. 28, 2011, 12:37 PM
This too Mara, alhough sometimes you will get a horse that bleeds during slow gallops, IMO they will not usually make it as racehorses.

Blinkers On
Jun. 29, 2011, 04:30 PM
Meh.. how many times does a horse run a huge race/# and we scope and they have bled a 4 or 5? I think some of the time it is the gallop out. Like some people think horses are injured the most in works and races in the gallop out. (not always). Eight Belles ripped them off in the gallop out. Different styles of riders also seems to make a difference. I get on a filly that bleeds out both nostrils when a jock works her but doesn't bleed a drop when I do. Bleeding is interesting. Some horses do, most do, but some do under different circumstances, riders, treatment, through treatment.. whatever. Managing the individual horse is key.
I once had an Irish filly that had been to 6 different racetracks in two different continents at the age of three. It was clear she was bleeding in Europe. She came to the US and she was still bleeding (it looked like from her form). I got her and she was a nut. I got her happy, never let her out of a slow lope without lasix. She won 2 in a row for me and bled out both nostrils both times. She was claimed off the second win and never hit the board again.
Bleeding is different for EVERY horse. The reason, how tough they are regardless of the blood. BUT the one thing that always holds true is anatomy and physiology.
Just because Europe doesn't use Lasix, doesn't mean they don't treat. There are a million and one herbs and concoctions that can be used that don't test that deal with bleeders. You are silly if you think so, Calamber. We use the same herbs and "such" on bleeders in conjuntion to lasix and adjunct bleeder meds. It's not rocket science

Calamber
Jul. 2, 2011, 11:16 PM
Meh.. how many times does a horse run a huge race/# and we scope and they have bled a 4 or 5? I think some of the time it is the gallop out. Like some people think horses are injured the most in works and races in the gallop out. (not always). Eight Belles ripped them off in the gallop out. Different styles of riders also seems to make a difference. I get on a filly that bleeds out both nostrils when a jock works her but doesn't bleed a drop when I do. Bleeding is interesting. Some horses do, most do, but some do under different circumstances, riders, treatment, through treatment.. whatever. Managing the individual horse is key.
I once had an Irish filly that had been to 6 different racetracks in two different continents at the age of three. It was clear she was bleeding in Europe. She came to the US and she was still bleeding (it looked like from her form). I got her and she was a nut. I got her happy, never let her out of a slow lope without lasix. She won 2 in a row for me and bled out both nostrils both times. She was claimed off the second win and never hit the board again.
Bleeding is different for EVERY horse. The reason, how tough they are regardless of the blood. BUT the one thing that always holds true is anatomy and physiology.
Just because Europe doesn't use Lasix, doesn't mean they don't treat. There are a million and one herbs and concoctions that can be used that don't test that deal with bleeders. You are silly if you think so, Calamber. We use the same herbs and "such" on bleeders in conjuntion to lasix and adjunct bleeder meds. It's not rocket science

I have to agree on me being silly, but for an entirely different reason. I may be silly to persist in trying to find those who wish to collaborate on coming up with a different way, but I like that kind of silly and will continue whether it meets with public approval or not. If it is fine in your book to give lasix or any other concoction which treats this abnormality in a way which I think is physiologically harsh on the horse, and not in their best interests as far as a policy then there is nothing I could say to convince you as I have already said. Some people just like things the way they are, nothing I can do about that.

I do not have the solution (wish I did), but I do have some ideas and I am open to more ideas like those given regarding the short sighted, nee ignorant way that the horses' are trained and I would also say bred. That to me is a useful and collaborative effort. I do not see all being well in la la land. I will not comment about your screen name I promise.

Blinkers On
Jul. 3, 2011, 02:18 PM
Amber, do your research HOW is it an abnormality?? It's not and nor is just race horses that bleed.
Lasix is not psychologically had on a horse it actually calms. Yes the pee and loose water, but they are in no WAY psychologically "damaged" by the use of lasix... Jeepers..
You in all honesty have NO IDEA what you are talking about. Sorry and that IS fact.
Do you honestly think that no one has ever or IS endevering to help with a better way to treat/prevent EIPH... Again, do some research.... Enlighten yourself.

Calamber
Jul. 3, 2011, 09:50 PM
BO, I said "physiologically", not "psychologically". You clearly are not endeavoring to help, you are hysterically insisting that it is as good as it gets and no problems. Try to read what you are saying, although that last statement was pretty hard to decipher. Physician, heal thyself.

Calamber
Jul. 3, 2011, 09:55 PM
Calamber, please refrain from making statements on what I "believe" (take note of your 'leeches' comment.) State what you wish to state and I'll state what I believe, but please don't attribute to me comments or opinions that I neither made or don't have. Comprende muchacho (a)?

My comment on "The Veterinary Science" was not to judge treatments, it was simply a response to an overtly ignorant comment on the history of EIPH. If we can find better preventions/treatments for EIPH, I'm all for it, however the anti-lasix advocates seem to offer nothing in that regard, just insulting rhetoric.

It was a metaphor, not a statement as to your beliefs.

Blinkers On
Jul. 3, 2011, 11:05 PM
Yes, Amber, I am hysterical.. AGAIN please do some research it will broaden your narrow mind

Blinkers On
Jul. 3, 2011, 11:12 PM
BO, I said "physiologically", not "psychologically". You clearly are not endeavoring to help, you are hysterically insisting that it is as good as it gets and no problems. Try to read what you are saying, although that last statement was pretty hard to decipher. Physician, heal thyself.

Um No... Can you read...??? EVERYONE involved in Equine Vet MEd is trying to find a way to fix, help, prevent, manage and treat.. again, do some research...it is enlightening.... even for a mind like yours