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ivy62
Jun. 18, 2011, 09:28 PM
We have a filly that was raised very well and was very sweet. She went to a trainer who apparently didn't do the right things. After about 5 months with a good trainer she certainly works better then before but she can only work for about 30 minutes. Then she gets crazed and is impossible! She resists and her attention just cannot be gotten back...She is a nice horse with TONS of potential and jumps the moon! Does anyone have any ideas on how to get her past this? The trainer has tried everything he knows. The next step that has been mentioned is the "cowboy" I am not sure of this.. He has tried changing venues, saddles, bits everything even changing her pasture! He has played in the ring, out of the ring and even played soccer with her. She is being ridden 4 times a week now, and it is actually getting worse! She had never offered any bad behavior but now she is thinking about it. The physical issues have been checked. teeth, back etc...
any ideas?

Petstorejunkie
Jun. 18, 2011, 09:49 PM
how many breaks (both physical and mental) is she getting during a typical ride? how often, and for how long?

Behind the 8 Ball
Jun. 18, 2011, 09:53 PM
I have had a few horses whose nickel ran out early - 1/2 and hour or 45 minutes max. Ask the trainer to do 2 training sessions of 1/2 hour each and get her hacking out and make life fun. How old is she, anyway?

ivy62
Jun. 18, 2011, 09:56 PM
He has worked with her very slowly with lots of breaks and walking and such on a long rein also. He takes her out of the ring and walks just for fun..She seems to have a built in clock that when the rider is on that is all that matters...He doesn't ask for a frame or anything like that. He has just been trying to get her to relax...that seems to be the key and she just won't do it. It is such a shame because she is such a nice horse..on the ground she is an in your pocket horse but Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde when mounted.. :-(

ivy62
Jun. 18, 2011, 09:58 PM
She just turned 6...was started as a long 4 year old but that trainer didn't do things right so a lot of time has been invested in fixing those problems too....He has tried all different combinations of time and fun she wants no part of it...

CHT
Jun. 18, 2011, 10:14 PM
I am curious as to what was done eliminate physical problems as a possible issue.

I would wonder about something like a back issue that she can only tolerate for so long. This happenned to someone I know; her nice to deal with horse was suddenly going crazy after 20-30 minutes of work. The vet could not find an issue, so the trainer was tranquing the horse to work it. This did help keep the rider safe, but the horse didn't get any better. Finally the owners got a very good chiro/massage therapist out and they found some back and hip issues. Took a few sessions and so slow rehab work, but eventually the horse's work ethic returned and he went back to being the sweet horse he was previously.

Twiliath
Jun. 18, 2011, 10:50 PM
Someone I know once suggested this when you couldn't decide if it was a training/attitude problem or physical pain: Try 4 gm. bute and see what kind of horse you've got.

I did that with one of mine and I had a completely different horse. Pain was the issue. Three and half grams of bute was what he needed to feel good. Anything less and he was in pain.

Try it and see.

CHT
Jun. 18, 2011, 10:58 PM
I agree with the bute idea, but some soundness issues are not made better with bute, so don't discount a physical issue just because the bute doesn't help.

flyracing
Jun. 18, 2011, 11:13 PM
Don't forget the stomach! Try 4 scoops of neighlox with some alfalfa pellets before putting the bridle on for 3-4 days. Great diagnostic tool is much cheaper and in my experience better than a week of gastrogaurd.

sdlbredfan
Jun. 18, 2011, 11:22 PM
Have you checked her cardiac and respiratory systems? Any type of cardiac insufficiency that might cause her to start feeling very weak could also trigger a panic attack in a prey animal, and if she has a laryngeal hemiplegia, that also could cause the 'runs out of gas' issue. While you are checking her medically, definitely look into those two, in addition to the other good advice. FWIW, I would not try the Bute, because if the issue is ulcers you could trigger something much worse, namely colitis, a very real risk of Bute.

stoicfish
Jun. 18, 2011, 11:24 PM
Don't forget the stomach! Try 4 scoops of neighlox with some alfalfa pellets before putting the bridle on for 3-4 days. Great diagnostic tool is much cheaper and in my experience better than a week of gastrogaurd.

I was going to suggest this as a cheap way to find out if this is the issue. Even if you give 4 days of GG, you should see a difference. Still cheap compared to 5 months of training.

ivy62
Jun. 19, 2011, 04:40 AM
She has been checked by a good chiro and her teeth are in good shape...may try the GG for 5 days...will keep you posted..
Thanks

Lost_at_C
Jun. 19, 2011, 06:05 AM
In addition to what others have said, I'd be very interested to hear what the first trainer supposedly did wrong and what exactly the new trainer is doing. What precisely does a typical session consist of and how exactly does he react when the mare acts up?

LookmaNohands
Jun. 19, 2011, 07:03 AM
It sounds like she could be over faced or that she just does not understand. Are you sure the trainer is being CLEAR or just doing what he/she always does with other horses? I had a 3 yr old in to start last summer that was extremely mentally SLOOOOW! Took her two or three times longer to figure things out than most. Once she got it she was great. But things took much longer for her to learn. I got her started under saddle lightly then sent her home to grow up which is what I felt she really needed.

It is best to look for all possible reasons she may have to not cooperate and try to remove them. Physical and tack fit issues first. Once you eliminate those you mostly just have learning. There are many ways horses can learn. You just have to try different things.

LookmaNohands
Jun. 19, 2011, 07:12 AM
It sounds like she could be over faced or that she just does not understand. Are you sure the trainer is being CLEAR or just doing what he/she always does with other horses? I had a 3 yr old in to start last summer that was extremely mentally SLOOOOW! Took her two or three times longer to figure things out than most. Once she got it she was great. But things took much longer for her to learn. I got her started under saddle lightly then sent her home to grow up which is what I felt she really needed.

It is best to look for all possible reasons she may have to not cooperate and try to remove them. Physical and tack fit issues first. Once you eliminate those you mostly just have learning. There are many ways horses can learn. You just have to try different things.

angel
Jun. 19, 2011, 08:58 AM
At this point, we are all just guessing. Can you post a video of this mare being ridden? Something where the camera is held steady, and the image takes up about 3/4ths of the screen so we can see some detail? Some from the beginning of the work, the middle, and at the end when she is getting ugly.

JB
Jun. 19, 2011, 09:14 AM
30 minutes and then she's done is not at all atypical of EPSM issues.

I too would like to know what things have been ruled out, and how.

What's her diet? Breeding?

shawneeAcres
Jun. 19, 2011, 09:41 AM
I would be checking her for PSSM/EPSM. However, if that is negative, along with all other physical things I woudl try riding her twice daily for 30 minues at a time. See if that helps to build her stamina and work ethic without the potential blowups. Gradually increase the time. Also do LOTS of different things, many of these horses get bored easily. And I find that more true with mares

Emily423
Jun. 19, 2011, 09:46 AM
When my horse had ulcers, he was relaxed and well-behaved for the first 10-15 minutes, and then started to go crazy the longer he worked because the more her worked, the more his stomach acid sloshed around and aggravated the ulcers. I would definitely suggest a scope or a trial with gastrogaurd.

ivy62
Jun. 19, 2011, 08:55 PM
Okay, trainer number one was sent a nice calm filly that had been backed, tacked, bridled and ridden in the round pen. Had been mounted from both sides and never cared. Trainer got the horse and said she is not ready to be ridden...Why we asked? She was to skiddish? We were surprised but she hadn't been in a new place in a long time. After a time period the mare was allowed to become the alpha and very pushy. We also came to find out that she was terrorized by some gelding!.She also has a dental issue that we told the trainer needs to be addressed and she not only gave us a hard time it turns out the person that came to float the teeth did a really bad job. The mare could not be bridled or haltered without a fight.
She then went to trainer number 2. He has done amazing things with her. He takes his time, rides her in the ring, out of the ring, trail rides her and they even played soccer! She was only working twice a week and getting worse. He has changed the bits, saddles, even her pasture! had her checked by the chiro and had her teeth fixed too....After the 30 minutes she now has a hissy fit and thinks about being dangerous. She has never been like that before. while her clock is ticking she does everything that is asked. but when her time is up she won't even move off the leg or outside rein. It all ends and there is no getting her attention back, He is a very nice calm, soft rider that has done a marvelous job. we are just at a roadblock.
Her diet I would have to ask. She is by Santa Cruz (old) and out of a tb mare Way State...she ahs no muscle wasting,her coat is beautiful, and she eats with gusto,,,Curious about the EPSM, I looked up the symptoms and the attitude is the only thing...I am opening any and all suggestions at this point.
If you want to see her she has an ad up on horseclicks.. oldenburg, mare texas..she is 6 years old. This is not an advertisement, this is so you can see her pics. She was free jumped for the first time the other day and she doesn't care how big the jump got she just sailed over it. She has a ton of scope..I also have some videos but I have to figure out how to load them, theya re on an e-mail as an attachment...
Thanks for all the suggestions.

CHT
Jun. 19, 2011, 09:01 PM
So has a VET looked at the mare?

EqTrainer
Jun. 19, 2011, 09:25 PM
Although it is very likely that there is a physical problem, it is also possoble that her attention span has never been developed. I am not sure why this seems to be so often overlooked but it is. I see it more often in horses who have been started later in life. Personally I would work her in hand, expecting her to focus 100 % and see how long she can stay engaged. If she can go past her usual "timer gone off" stage then it tells you something. My guess is tho that she does not really pay attention for the entire time and then at some point, decides to assert that she is finished.

Most babies do some version of this. It is the trainers responsibility to develop the attention span carefully past that and divert a confrontation over it. If you blow it, it can be hard to fix, particularly if the horse learns they can decide when to quit. Is there any possibility that the first trainer did indeed hit the wall and try to physically push her thru it and get launched?

I am not sure I would want her with a trainer who plays with her, etc, etc. But that is me. I would prefer her to play/interact with other horses and at this point, understand that we have a work relationship and not a friend relationship. Muddying those waters can really confuse some horses, and for those, friendship comes through the work and over time. She may think, depending on how they play, that she is entitled to make those decisions, hard to say.

Last of all she is a mare so telling her is unlikely to be successful since the opportunity to do so has either been botched by trainer one or lost by trainer two. Good luck, do consider that a trainer three might be the answer, someone who can establish a fair, clear working relationship with her.

AlterBy
Jun. 19, 2011, 10:50 PM
Check the teeth again. Things can change quite rapidly.
And I'm saying like CHT, a vet should probably have a look.

May I ask who is the guy riding your mare in the add's pictures?

On training, some horse need to be 'controlled', 'framed' (in a good real dressage way), 'entertained/kept busy' and really be worked. Not hard, not rough but firm, quiet and fair.

I personnaly would try short sessions of 15-20 minutes max but of more intensive work. Not much breaks, not much walk or standing still for no reason. Active trot and canter (not rushed or fast) a bit of walk, circles, lots of diagonals. And then done, dismount, carrots and back to field. Everyday.
Adding a lunge session or two somewhere in extra during the week.
You mare need to understand that she is expected to work while under saddle, not playing and doing whatever she feels like. She needs to be in shape, mentally and physically. A tired or sore horse won't be much cooperative.

I believe you need good quick sessions for now. When you'll get consistent sessions then you'll be able to expand the saddle time.

ivy62
Jun. 20, 2011, 05:13 AM
I do know he has worked with her in the round pen and on a lounge.. He has tried to establish "who" is in charge but I cannot say how he has done that. I will try the GG and have the vet out to see her but we are moving forward to trainer number 3! I hope we can straighten her out and find her a suitable home. She really is a nice horse but going to be way to difficult for a kid to ride.
Also, we upted her training to 4 times a week with no "playing" Just try and show her who is boss and that she is expected to work when she is asked to, That is not working either... :-(

Manni01
Jun. 20, 2011, 06:01 AM
another little thing. Watching the pictures on horseclick, I noticed that her saddle does not really fit her. Its way to much forward. Maybe something which might bother a horse..

*Liz*
Jun. 20, 2011, 06:07 AM
Is it possible that mare is simply getting tired and overheated? Is she any different when worked in the early morning vs. afternoon vs. evening? I might consider bodyclipping her.

AlterBy
Jun. 20, 2011, 06:54 AM
What do you mean by 'trying to show her who's the boss'?

Such 'technique' usually won't work. Especially with a mare. You need to be more intelligent than her. Ask for things firmly yes but without drama. do your training session as 'quick' as you can and you are going to be done before she realises she worked and that her time is up. You need to keep her busy so she 'forget' about being silly, not pushing her too much, punishing her or being rough enough so she gets who's the boss...

If she is at a point that she expects to be punished, try not to if possible and just ignore the behavior. Sometimes it confuses them and you will be able to just keep going. Sometimes, it is a better choice than just beating the crap
out of them.
(Not saying that this is what you tried with this mare.)

On a side note: There is no mention on your add that this horse might be difficult in some way and you listed her as a '4' for her temperament. It seem just a bit misleading for a potential buyer.

partlycloudy
Jun. 20, 2011, 07:41 AM
I have had lots of youngsters that seem to have a built in stopwatch. Typically when I start them they get ridden for about 20 min. At that time, they start to stall out and say 'OK you've had your little ride not get the heck off!' LOL.
You can mix them up a little, by getting off at 15min and then longeing or line driving for 10, or driving them for 10 at the start, anything to mix up their little clocks and extend your lesson by a few short minutes each time.
also, I noticed the rider is a little on the large side for her...is there a tinier rider available? He may be tiring her. (not trying to start a train wreck here! He looks very fit etc., but just a larger person is all!)
Really advocate long lining, you can teach them so much without the strain of a rider and strengthen them so they can carry a rider better.

Lost_at_C
Jun. 20, 2011, 08:10 AM
I agree that the saddle appears to be too far forward and could be causing pain - worth checking at least. It also sounds like this mare needs a good routine, and I wonder if she has been indulged a bit too much. I really don't think playing games is going to help as much as a solid, consistent routine in the ring at LEAST four times a week (after all vet and tack issues have been checked).

Lots of horses have a built in clock (not just youngsters) and the best way to deal with it is to just get on with things. Redirect and remain calm and persistent - you need a trainer who is not going to be afraid of her tactics, nor spoil her and allow it, but simply carry on in a businesslike manner. This is why I asked how your trainer reacts when she starts acting up. Some horses look for a conflict and it's better if you don't give it to them. Nothing stops a tantrum faster than a parent who calmly gets on with the job at hand and keeps reactions to a minimum.

sid
Jun. 20, 2011, 08:46 AM
I's highly recommend testing her for Lyme. I've known many, otherwise good natured horses, exhibit this behavior and Lyme disease was the culprit. If so, better to treat earlier than later. Good luck.

Behind the 8 Ball
Jun. 20, 2011, 09:01 AM
What do you mean by 'trying to show her who's the boss'?

Such 'technique' usually won't work. Especially with a mare. You need to be more intelligent than her. Ask for things firmly yes but without drama. ........ Sometimes it confuses them and you will be able to just keep going. Sometimes, it is a better choice than just beating the crap
out of them.
(Not saying that this is what you tried with this mare.)

.

This ^
Old wives tale - Tell a gelding, ASK A MARE, negotiate with stallions.

EqTrainer
Jun. 20, 2011, 09:33 AM
Yup, you definately do not want to get in a big fight with her. My suspicion is that someone already has :(

coymackerel
Jun. 20, 2011, 10:02 AM
my horse also had an off button at 30 minutes. in his case supplementing with magnesium did the trick.

BoyleHeightsKid
Jun. 20, 2011, 10:38 AM
I agree those pictures show the saddle is too far forward and the rider is not always riding from his seat. Looks like he may be using too much hand IMO. You can really see it in the canter picture. My gelding will only tolerate someone balancing with their hands for so long...then he wants them OFF and has no problems with letting them know it!

Her behavior may be be a combination of pain/rider issues... JMHO. :)

alto
Jun. 20, 2011, 10:47 AM
Agree about likely saddle issues - it is past her shoulder so she is hitting it with every stride; rider also ends up too far forward on her withers instead of the part of the back that more easily carries a rider.

I agree look for trainer #3 BUT NOT someone that is going to fight with this mare - the trainer needs to be smarter & more sensitive than she is ie trainer is re-directing while she is thinking about reacting, trainer is rewarding every try - she sounds as if she is brazen under saddle rather than confident.

She will also need a couple months off inbetween trainers if she is sore ...

She is lovely :yes:

ivy62
Jun. 28, 2011, 07:57 PM
Trainer number one let her get away with everything. She also had teeth issuesm which we have corrected. This trainer is very confident and doesn't fight with her. He redirects her attention if he can. He is very good with mares, has had many that were very opinionated and he ahs done well with all types of disciplines.
We are going to try ulcer guard for 8 days and see if there is any improvement. If there is I will have her scoped and if positive use the gastroguard. Thank god for insurance. We will also have the vet, dentist and chiro look at her again. I agree the saddle seems a bit far forward too...

coymackerel- What does the magnesium do? That would be simple and how did you come to that conclusion?

I will ask the vet about Lyme, but normally they react when being mounted not 30 minutes into the ride. One of our other horses had it and he bolted across the ring and left you standing there!
Thanks for all the suggestions....Will keep you updated
She is getting ready for her inspection now and is doing ground work...

OverandOnward
Jun. 28, 2011, 08:09 PM
All the vet/medical screening recommendations first, of course.

But, if it isn't medical/physical ... she is new to all this. She is just getting started on her career. Every horse won't fit into the human ambition time schedule. No amount of manipulation can fully overcome the fact that we're all on horse time, not human time. No matter how anxious we are to realize the potential we see.

It's possible that she is telling you "I need more time - much more time." And it's not a 'flaw,' it's just the horse that she is. If that's the case, she also needs a rider who is willing to go at her speed.


This trainer is very confident and doesn't fight with her. He redirects her attention if he can. He is very good with mares, has had many that were very opinionated and he ahs done well with all types of disciplines.Sounds great, hope he's also ready to go at the rate of progress she needs, even if it's slow.

Good luck with her - hope all works out happily. :)

ivy62
Jun. 28, 2011, 08:16 PM
We have never rushed her. So as long as she was happy he worked at a reasonable pace. He has years to put her together so rushing would not be even a thought. We are just very confused. She never balked at anything until she went to trainer number1. Trainer number 2 has done a wonderful job with her. Everything from haltering her and bridling her was an issue. He took his time and now those problems are gone. He taught her how to lounge, she was supposed to have learned that before, He tried to start as if she knew nothing and see how she responded. He said that in that first 30 minutes she will do everything and then the timer goes off and she is done. I wonder what would happen if they went on a long trail ride with some buddies? He does work her out in the fields also so she is not always in the same place either...

MassageLady
Jun. 29, 2011, 12:52 AM
Looked at the pics..if it's the ones of the bay mare being ridden, it looks to me like that saddle is too far forward, and that IMO would be causing alot of issues.

alicen
Jun. 29, 2011, 06:50 AM
Looked at the pics..if it's the ones of the bay mare being ridden, it looks to me like that saddle is too far forward, and that IMO would be causing alot of issues.

Ditto. The saddle appears to be sitting entirely on her large, prominent withers. In one canter picture the pommel looks like it's almost touching her neck.

ivy62
Jul. 10, 2011, 05:02 AM
Well, the ulcerguard didn't work adn she is worse when ground working so I do not think the saddle is an issue. The chiro says she is fine Her teeth are being checked at months end....

staceyk
Jul. 10, 2011, 07:06 AM
Hi,

Do you/trainer lunge before you ride? Has the mare been long lined? I would be curious to try "intense" mental work, some physical work without a person on her back and see if the same reaction occurs.

I'm not an expert of any sort, just trying to see how you can rule things out, which is the only way to get to the bottom of the problem.

Plus, all equine dentists are not created equal. This does SOUND like a back or dental problem, doesn't it?

Old Fashioned
Jul. 10, 2011, 08:21 AM
She's a mare - have her checked for cysts or a blocked/twisted ovary. Also you can always try osteopathic adjustments. The Vluggen Institute (http://vluggeninstitute.com/) is in Austin and there are several EDO's in Texas. I've found osteopathy to be far more effective than chiropractic adjustments.

Equus
Jul. 10, 2011, 09:38 AM
It sounds like this mare just needs a good old fashioned training program where consistency is key. 2 days a week just isn't enough for a 6 year old mare with a training issue. She needs to learn real fast who's in charge and that she can't decide when her training session is over. She's not 3 years old anymore and it's time for her to start cooperating with the training program. I think your best bet is to put her with a very experienced young horse trainer before things escalate even more.

I'm making this statement assuming the mare is healthy of course. It sounds like you've ruled out health issues so I'd just say no more excuses!

katarine
Jul. 10, 2011, 06:00 PM
That saddle is not fitting her in the slightest.

Trying
Jul. 10, 2011, 06:15 PM
I have a badly started-now-with-good-rider 5yo that I started on Selenium,B and it helped him. However, he is not worked more that 30 min. as he is not strong enough and gets sore, He's TB and growing again. Chiro and teeth helped a lot but two sessions for 30 min/day,6x/w and a suplemental pm workout of 25 min 3x.week until he is stronger.

katarine
Jul. 10, 2011, 06:21 PM
Somewhere in there in her past there may well have been a battle she won. She's looking to win again. Him sitting on her shoulders cannot help-he is almost on her neck. I know she's short front to back but still..that can't be comfortable.

Some horses don't have a work ethic that allows for 45 minutes of work. What if you took her somewhere, trail riding...does she quit after 45 minutes of a trail ride/road ride?

ivy62
Jul. 11, 2011, 07:19 AM
She is being worked 4-5 days a week weather permitting, she is in Texas and 100 degree heat is not a good thing. It doesn't seem to matter where she is or what she is doing either. We have found another trainer but we are going to wait until after her inspection which is in Sept before sending her off....
I am going to have the vet out to make sure there are no other physical issues also....She is so sweet so this really came as a surprise to us...
I think she won a battle or two with the last trainer so that doesn't help. She doesn't get dangerous just stops listening and wants her way..

AllWeatherGal
Jul. 11, 2011, 09:17 AM
ivy ...

Many posters have commented on the saddle position. Are those photos current and accurate or have you made an adjustment there, as well?

AlterBy
Jul. 11, 2011, 09:30 AM
She is being worked 4-5 days a week weather permitting, she is in Texas and 100 degree heat is not a good thing. It doesn't seem to matter where she is or what she is doing either. We have found another trainer but we are going to wait until after her inspection which is in Sept before sending her off....
I am going to have the vet out to make sure there are no other physical issues also....She is so sweet so this really came as a surprise to us...
I think she won a battle or two with the last trainer so that doesn't help. She doesn't get dangerous just stops listening and wants her way..

Since you have until September, may I suggest that you stop any training for the month of july and start back in-hand work for the month of August? It would give her a month of and a good month of good handling session. Then you'll be ready for the inspection and for the new training session.

I also think you might not have a realistic vision of your mare's behavior.
A horse that stops listening and who wants her way IS (potentially) dangerous.
Make sure YOU handle her properly at home for everything you ask her.

carolprudm
Jul. 11, 2011, 09:41 AM
She is being worked 4-5 days a week weather permitting, she is in Texas and 100 degree heat is not a good thing. It doesn't seem to matter where she is or what she is doing either. We have found another trainer but we are going to wait until after her inspection which is in Sept before sending her off....
I am going to have the vet out to make sure there are no other physical issues also....She is so sweet so this really came as a surprise to us...
I think she won a battle or two with the last trainer so that doesn't help. She doesn't get dangerous just stops listening and wants her way..

Can you describe a typical training session? How many times will the trainer repeat a movement?

Some horses can do the same thing over and over and some simply won't

katarine
Jul. 11, 2011, 09:52 AM
Exactly my thoughts, carol. Some horses don't mind repetition, others are extremely annoyed by it; if the first 4 circles weren't good enough to earn a pat or rest or change of activity, why would I give you 5 more???

One of the coolest, sharp as a tack mares I have the privilege of knowing is a Trak mare with an amazing set of atheletic skills and a brain to match: but she fought some pitched battles as a wee greenie and learned how strong she is, and she's willing to sacrifice her own safety to prove she can win, and can have her way. Dangerous, sure, in the wrong hands. Incredibly talented and capable? Sure, in the right hands.

Has she ever been on a trail ride, going somewhere? Telling us she shuts down no matter what she's doing doesn't answer this question: Does she leave the sandbox undersaddle? Has she been out on a trail ride? I'm curious if she's arena/schooling sour but fine and eared up, outside and going somewhere?

ivy62
Jul. 11, 2011, 02:24 PM
It is always mixed up circles, serpenrines etc. She goes in the ring, outdoor course and trail rides. She does it as well on a line. Until the inspection she is working in hand mostly to prep her. She looks great now too...We are thinking about sending her to this other trainer after the inspection. He is supposed to be a good trainer with lots of patience and time...
I have a few other things to think about with her also.....I have addressed the saddle issue with the trainer as well....but that wouldn't make a difference on the ground....she is just being defiante..I do understand it can escalate and get dangerous..we are trying to prevent that and get her back on track. She is a lovely mover and has tons of potential. It is a matter of finding out why she acts this way and how do we get her through this either for sale or my daughter.
Thanks for all your responses