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View Full Version : Totilas/Rath's new free style, live stream Sunday



alicen
Jun. 18, 2011, 09:35 PM
http://www.clipmyhorse.de/en/live/channel/2

Totilas goes second to last at 7:55 eastern DST.

Mike Matson
Jun. 18, 2011, 10:51 PM
Thank you!

alicen
Jun. 19, 2011, 06:40 AM
You're welcome.

alicen
Jun. 19, 2011, 08:18 AM
Sometimes you need to refresh after a break to get the stream back.

Mike Matson
Jun. 19, 2011, 09:01 AM
Well, I didn't get any goosebumps. The walk music worked well as did some parts of the canter music. The trot music didn't do much for me. It will be interesting to see what others thought.

85.55% - First place.

Lost_at_C
Jun. 19, 2011, 09:04 AM
I found that terribly disappointing. Not the horse I've seen in the past by any stretch, but maybe it's still early days. Still, I think it was seriously overscored all things considered. The music didn't add anything IMO. I'm going to watch my recording of Toto at WEG now just out of interest.

...Well, that was an interesting exercise - watching the WEG freestyle and this one back to back. I feel a bit more forgiving of Rath now, but the big difference for me though is the level of purity and relaxation that Toto had then as compared to this one today. I hope that's just down to the length of the partnership and we'll see the new pairing show off better in future. When he's on form it's so easy to forgive those minor weaknesses in the presence of such greatness - and I want to see that again! (and better music).

Mike Matson
Jun. 19, 2011, 09:10 AM
I agree with you on the overscoring for this freestyle.

alicen
Jun. 19, 2011, 10:35 AM
Is there a pro dvd out there of the way Totilas used to be? I'd buy it in a jiffy. And now I'm going to go hug the horses.

Marydell
Jun. 19, 2011, 11:42 AM
I watched the GP on Friday in person. Although I have never been either over the moon or a detracter of Totilas, I was saddened by the GP and the obvious differences in the horse since WEG.
I hope time will help the new partnership, but I left the competition thinking that Edward Gal had the horse of a lifetime and Totilas , his special person in Edward.
I have not seen the freestyle, but thought I would comment as I saw them in person 48 hours ago.

Mike Matson
Jun. 19, 2011, 12:40 PM
My personal opinion is I think some of the money going into these top freestyles is wasted. The designers are going way overboard with "symphonic masterpieces" that don't really flow with the horse's gait beats or way of moving. A lot of money being paid with minimal emotive impact on the audience.

Lost_at_C
Jun. 19, 2011, 01:11 PM
Mike, I completely agree with you. That issue stood out today. I am so very tired of elevator-music versions of pop songs or these odd digital creations that seem to be really flavorless and make horses look like they're moving in a swamp. How many freestyle designers these days are also riders/trainers? I haven't kept track of trends in FS since the early 90s.

tempichange
Jun. 19, 2011, 06:12 PM
Is there a replay available? Had bad storms this morning and Internet was down

alicen
Jun. 19, 2011, 07:23 PM
Is there a replay available? Had bad storms this morning and Internet was down

pm'd you.

Mike Matson
Jun. 19, 2011, 07:26 PM
No theme to the freestyle. Little synchronization of the music with the horse's gaits. And yet an 85.55% and first place. Very disappointing. There was actually one canter pirouette where it sounded like there was no music!

Old Mac Donald
Jun. 19, 2011, 07:57 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_GVV8r0C2U&feature=share

I love Totilas... but that was dreadful! The music was awful, and the extended trot was... what trot?

alicen
Jun. 19, 2011, 08:14 PM
What I can't stand is the head bobbing in the piaffe and parts of the passage as though he were trying to lift himself with his front end.

The magic is over: I'm not too fond of the Vissers right now.

Arrows Endure
Jun. 19, 2011, 08:16 PM
Somebody please tell me how that scored 85.55%. I don't do GP dressage. Heck, I am a trail rider. But even I noticed that the horses two tempi's were off. He went two, two, two, two, one, three, two. And his piaffe at the beginning was...stuttery or something.

I would assume an 85% ride would not have the glaring errors like that. Not to mention, the rider was about a subtle as a speeding freight train. A couple of times, I looked at it and went, "look, he's kicking like a pony club kid on an old pony".

Guess it's the name that got the score, cause it sure wasn't the ride.

lovey1121
Jun. 19, 2011, 08:53 PM
The whole thing is sad. I am sad. Poor Totilas trying his heart out, but the pilot isnt there for him :no::no::no:

Jeito
Jun. 19, 2011, 08:58 PM
Give them a frigging break! Like any if you could ride this horse :mad:

Lost_at_C
Jun. 19, 2011, 09:10 PM
Give them a frigging break! Like any if you could ride this horse :mad:

Perhaps not, but many are qualified - e.g. skilled enough and experienced enough - to critique it. Discobold I'm not sure how much experience you have with dressage, but there are certain key principles that are considered all-important and apply to every horse and rider. That's what most posters here are referring to. Some of these principles were lacking to a much greater extent in this particular ride than in any of Toto's other performances I've seen.

I DO feel bad for Rath as it happens and I hope the pair gets it together eventually... what incredible pressure he must be under, but if he can't work through it then the result might be an unfairly tarnished reputation. Regardless of that though, there were better competitors today - and I'm usually among the first to defend judging. I'd really like to see score sheets.

dragonharte8
Jun. 19, 2011, 11:02 PM
The bobbing head at the passage and piaffe clearly demonstrate a horse that is overly constrained......he did not do that with Gal......

I agree that this is a sad presentation for Toto.....

And the music was hideous...............for Toto

Windermere
Jun. 19, 2011, 11:23 PM
Disappointing, but I have sympathy for Rath, who must be under tremendous pressure to perform. (Although I still admit to being jealous of him).

What really stood out to me, besides the head-bobbing, was how tense Toto looked in the walk, especially in his shoulders. I'm a bit of a dressage newbie, but did others see this as well?

Eireamon
Jun. 19, 2011, 11:31 PM
Wheres the Joy gone??

I could barely watch it. Very sad

NCRider
Jun. 19, 2011, 11:56 PM
When EG had the horse he was not actively breeding. Rath has also only actually had the horse with him for a very short period of time. The horse also recently had a foot injury. All of you crying out that the magic is gone make me want to roll my eyes. This partnership will take time. It also may not ever look exactly the same because Rath doesn't train in the Dutch style and that is what the horse is used to. They're going to need to develop their own balance together. Regarding the music, it was horrifically dull before, sounding like a loud version of the background musak they play during the regular tests, and now it's bad in similar but different ways.
Regarding not fitting the horse, I see this as likely to become more and more common because if none of the music matches the footfalls then you can't lose marks for getting off your music. It's almost like spending a lot of $ gets you to a 70, making it unrecognizable and dull gets you an extra 5 points for being "cultured" and eliminating all connection to the horses gaits gets you another 5 for being "creative".

Marydell
Jun. 20, 2011, 01:06 AM
If you dig deep enoughon the site, score sheets are there for the GP and the GPS, not the Freestyle though. Even as a Totilas fan,you have to admit to the overscoring. Period. Judges MUST score what they see in the moment, regardless of the past or any reason for tension

Beentheredonethat
Jun. 20, 2011, 02:13 AM
I have no problem with the horse and Rath--they have a lot of pressure on them and did a good job for that. But that score is insane and shows a MAJOR problem with the judging.

That music sucked. They couldn't even match the walk, the horrible non-music that everyone uses for the pirouettes when that is the BEST place to get a strong beat, and no inspiration. I am not someone who thinks the music has to match the footfalls, but it should enhance the horse and give a clear sense of rhythm. (And, yes, I have designed, ridden and won GP freestyles.) And with an international designer and booko bucks, couldn't someone think of something more original that extended canter from the corner near C to G and pirouette? I'd like to see a GP without that these days. Snore.

I couldn't see too well from the video, but it looked like no overstep in the "extended" trot. The first set of two tempies were messed up and he did do a second, but that score doesn't go away. He also put both hind legs together in the one tempis. And, as noted, the head bobbing.

With the artistic problems with the music, the lack of difficulty and creativity as well as the technical problems, that score is clearly outlining a problem with the judging.

SaddleFitterVA
Jun. 20, 2011, 07:59 AM
I cannot ride at that level
I think Totilas had better freestyle rides last year - even if the music was getting a little stale from hearing it so many times.
I do not feel "sorry" for Rath
If that is an 85.5% at GP Freestyle I am getting robbed at 2nd level.


The start of the music is really good, but perhaps because I was watching it pretty late last night, my attention wandered, so it got kinda boring, until I started noticing all the mistakes. Then I woke up a bit and paid closer attention, ignoring the music.

I still like the horse, he seems like he has a fantastic brain, but that score seems a bit inflated.

I know the freestyle music is expensive to produce, but as a spectator I wish that competitors had 2 or 3 freestyles and would rotate through at the different shows. Again, I know this is impractical, but this is purely from a spectator mindset.

Oh, as someone who struggles with extended gaits, there is a small part of me that has sympathy for those in the test. Until I see the super-high scores...and then I go back to the "I've been ROBBED!":mad::lol::lol: thought.

rcloisonne
Jun. 20, 2011, 09:12 AM
The horse also recently had a foot injury. All of you crying out that the magic is gone make me want to roll my eyes.
The horse looks lame. Why is he showing? Apparently, those FEI judges can't spot a head bobbin' lameness from a few feet away. That makes me roll my eyes. :rolleyes:




This partnership will take time. It also may not ever look exactly the same because Rath doesn't train in the Dutch style and that is what the horse is used to.
The horse still looks cranked and spanked in addition to being lame. I watched this on wireless which kept stalling, giving me lots of long pause "still shots".

There were several times the horse's nose touched his chest. :no: Very rarely is the highest point the poll (this is nothing new and neither is his lack of of over tracking at the extended trot). In several of these "still" shots he also looked very much on the forehand at the canter, nevermind all of the mistakes. Without him being 100% and blinding everyone with flashy gaits, his past rollkur training is quite obvious.

If this GP ride rates an 85.5, I'm Anky van Grunsven.

dudleyc
Jun. 20, 2011, 09:44 AM
I do not like the music, but I think it is SMART music for this stage of the partnership.

Because the music is so bland, it doesn't really matter where the transitions are and if the horses tempo doesn't match the beet you don't see it so much. Plus since with this music it doesn't so much matter if the horse is trotting or cantering, Mathias was able to repeat the two tempes at the end.

I think this pair is being way overscored.

Rizzla
Jun. 20, 2011, 10:09 AM
I just saw a head to head video of Matthias Rath freestyle to music at the German championships and the FTM of Edward Gal and Totilas at WEG. The choreography is a 100% copy of the WEG choreography of Edward and the music is a bad copy of his music at WEG. :mad:.

Oberon13
Jun. 20, 2011, 10:50 AM
Wow...talk about boring music. It was basically a lot of percussion (timpani rolls galore!) and the same three major chords played again and again with a slight change in bass line to make it sound different in certain spots. The canter music was simplistic.

Basics of dynamics...if a piece is supposed to be "forte" in the middle, you can't begin at "forte" because there's nowhere for you to go. The opening began with such dramatic, driving music that once we got to the canter, there really wasn't anywhere for the music to go...it couldn't swell with the lengthenings (it changed key up a half-step, but that's not the same thing) or accentuate the tempi changes or do ANYTHING with the pirouettes. The music was "shouting" through the whole thing (except where it disappeared for the pirouettes).

*sigh* Maybe time will help...

SerenaGinger
Jun. 21, 2011, 01:30 AM
It's almost like spending a lot of $ gets you to a 70, making it unrecognizable and dull gets you an extra 5 points for being "cultured" and eliminating all connection to the horses gaits gets you another 5 for being "creative".

I really agree with this! Let's hope the judging will change soon; I wouldn't pay any amount of money to watch this kind of freestyle at a top-rated show. It was hard enough to watch in its entirety on YouTube!

Mike Matson
Jun. 21, 2011, 01:54 AM
Anyone know what they are saying about this freestyle in Europe? The reviews here and on the other dressage BB are pretty negative. I'm surprised we haven't seen an article in Eurodressage about it. Maybe Astrid is looking for the right words to describe this mess. :yes:

Lynnwood
Jun. 21, 2011, 02:21 AM
I think the only part that is sad for me is the damage it is doing to both Rath's confidence and Toto's.

Its neither of their fault they got caught up in the $$ and ego side of a sport that really has little to do with either in an execution point of view.

Its like taking Mozart or Bach and then asking a child to rewrite their work and do it in public oh and make it better. Rath is a good rider and he is going to be one of the best "someday" if they don't over face him or shame him by asking him to ride this horse and do it as well or better then Gal. :no: Shame on his family for that sort of pressure.

belambi
Jun. 21, 2011, 06:31 AM
I think the only part that is sad for me is the damage it is doing to both Rath's confidence and Toto's.

Its neither of their fault they got caught up in the $$ and ego side of a sport that really has little to do with either in an execution point of view.

Its like taking Mozart or Bach and then asking a child to rewrite their work and do it in public oh and make it better. Rath is a good rider and he is going to be one of the best "someday" if they don't over face him or shame him by asking him to ride this horse and do it as well or better then Gal. :no: Shame on his family for that sort of pressure.

excellent excellent post.. and also shame on the german judges for falling into and then encouraging the hype with their ludicrous scores.

Lost_at_C
Jun. 21, 2011, 07:58 AM
Anyone know what they are saying about this freestyle in Europe? The reviews here and on the other dressage BB are pretty negative. I'm surprised we haven't seen an article in Eurodressage about it. Maybe Astrid is looking for the right words to describe this mess. :yes:

Over on the Horse and Hound forum the feeling is pretty much the same as here... a few defenders but mostly people disliking the music and disappointed with the ride. Also one poster took note of the almost-constantly horizontal curb bit and lack of balance. Also Theo has stirred the pot there so it looks like the focus is on the similarity in the choreography. No real mention of overscoring though - hmm. Would be nice to know what's being said in mainland Europe, if anything.

Marydell
Jun. 21, 2011, 12:42 PM
sitting in the audience on Friday and listening to the remarks made by the people around us, they are feeling the same way as we are.
I was at a foal show Sunday and people were watching and also having sad thoughts about the quality of the freestyle ride. These are the folks who are very interested in breeding to him after they see some more offspring growing up and under saddle. The comments right now is that he is not a "foal maker" but his interior qualities are the absolute best(mind, willingness to work) so they wait to see the offspring under saddle before forming further opnions.

dragonharte8
Jun. 21, 2011, 01:18 PM
The scoring makes one wonder!
As was previously pointed out, the curb bit is horizontal all the time. This is in violation of FEI rule that states the snaffle bit is the bit of primary contact.

alicen
Jun. 21, 2011, 04:44 PM
The judges were all German and this was a national championship so maybe there's a tendency to inflate scores? E) P.Holler(GER)(H) Dr.D.Plewa(GER)(C) K.Ridder(GER)(M) Dr.D.Schüle(GER)(B) M.Richenhagen(GER)

eurodressage
Jun. 21, 2011, 05:09 PM
Mike.. it took me a while but I found my words to describe what happened:

http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2011/06/21/rath-secures-national-title-totilas-2011-german-championships-balve

Rath has certainly brought out parts in Totilas which are now better than under Gal (length in the neck), but he does not (yet) have the same fine tuning as Edward.. Time will tell. I think they are a lovely pair, just like I also liked Edward on Totilas.

Despite the hype, they contribute so much to the sport. Wiesbaden was AMAZING!! It felt like you were at a World Championships because of the crowds, excitement and very high level of riding!

Rath's freestyle needs serious work. I don't like music that doesn't match the footfall of the horse. It quickly turns into background music when it doesn't fit. I'm sure everything will fall into place for them if they are given more time..

What was most exciting about the german champs was not Totilas but EL Santo. Now that's a horse to watch!!

Mike Matson
Jun. 21, 2011, 07:17 PM
Thank you Astrid - an informative and well-written analysis of Totilas' freestyle! You hit all the marks! Now if only the judges will do the same when it is called for.

dragonharte8
Jun. 21, 2011, 07:31 PM
No accountability on judges so that will not change.

Hopalong
Jun. 22, 2011, 12:22 AM
Side-by-side choreography (using Edward's music)
http://vimeo.com/25347754

Lynnwood
Jun. 22, 2011, 02:02 AM
:no::no:

BaroquePony
Jun. 22, 2011, 08:00 PM
I think that Rath does not use his *core* as well as he should for that level of work, and especially that horse.

I think Totalis looks a bit frustrated and is now showing more tension from tail to poll.

Not what I had hoped for.