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LoveLongManes
Jun. 14, 2011, 08:33 PM
Of this horse: http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=%2F&gl=CA#/watch?v=dNBfwIn92d8

5 year old Andulsian/Morgan cross, low level dressage prospect. Just was curious what the COTH folks think.

HCF
Jun. 14, 2011, 08:36 PM
link doesn't work :no:

LoveLongManes
Jun. 14, 2011, 09:22 PM
Sorry! Fixed it. :-)

flyracing
Jun. 14, 2011, 09:30 PM
Does not work for me. The link goes to a youtube "desktop" just like the link says ;)

LoveLongManes
Jun. 14, 2011, 09:39 PM
Funny it works for me... Let me try again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNBfwIn92d8

Hope it works this time!

paulaedwina
Jun. 14, 2011, 09:55 PM
Does she have a head bob on her right front leg?

Paula

Shiaway
Jun. 14, 2011, 10:08 PM
I really like her. i think what you're seeing is just a little unsteadiness in the bridle but she's 5 and still learning. She seems to have 3 nice, straight gaits. I think you could really go places with her if you're confident in the saddle. She's a tiny bit looky which wouldn't concern me but if you get nervous I think that looky-ness might turn into a lot of tension. So I would say for a rider without any timidness she would be a good match.

ETA. Why limit her to a low-level dressage prospect? I bet she could take you a bit up the levels, you'd be surprised. If you have a trainer working with you and you could have the trainer ride her a little bit from time to time and help you advance her I bet you'd be able to do fairly well. I mean you can never say if any horse will hold up as you advance and there are a lot of if's, but I don't see why anything would hold you back based on this video.

Petstorejunkie
Jun. 14, 2011, 10:49 PM
First of all, if the rider in the video is the trainer and person who started the horse, take your checkbook when you go see this mare. WHY? Because the person seems to be a decent rider. A few bobbles in position but overall I see someone who learned from the right people how to ride.
Nice balance, love the freedom in the back, looks yummy and pliable. I firmly believe what makes a prix st george horse is not so much the flash factor but how they were started. This horse is on the right path for sure.
that canter with some polish is going to be $$$

take the trailer. ;)

paulaedwina
Jun. 14, 2011, 11:01 PM
Thanks for the information about the bob. I'm still learning to look at horsies.

Paula

alto
Jun. 14, 2011, 11:28 PM
What are you looking for in this horse? what goals do you have for her? what is she being advertised as?

I like her but she looks very green to me ...

MEP
Jun. 15, 2011, 12:08 AM
Hmmm. In the video, they keep saying "Good Boy"


at goals do you have for her? what is she being advertised as?


when you go see this mare


I really like her.


Does she have a head bob on her right front leg?
:lol::winkgrin:

alto
Jun. 15, 2011, 12:27 AM
:lol:
this is what happens when your default setting is Mute

Ironically I was going to write "he" but glanced at another post & went ohhh it's a girl - So sorry Brio!

J-Lu
Jun. 15, 2011, 12:43 AM
Hi,

I didn't hear sound. Hmmmm.

Anyway, these are my thoughts, which may or may not mean anything depending on your goals as a rider:

CONS: This mare does not track up in her trot. She looks stiff in front and I would definitely have front end xrays as part of the pre-purchase. She looks a bit stiff, a bit restricted in the shoulder and a bit upright. maybe she's not - that's just what I'm seeing in this video. Of course, no horse is perfect and it is foolish to expect perfection in a pre-purchase exam. It's hard to tell if this is due to how she's been ridden or her - because in her "long and low" her trot opens up much more. That points to the idea that her rider isn't riding forward or over the mare's back in most of this video. That said, baroque-ish horses are not known for their big trots - but she seems to have a better trot than what is shown here. If you are looking for a lower level prospect, having good basic gaits will help you, and you definitely need a horse who will track up. That said, I'm thinking that her short gait is more due to her rider than her regular way of going. So if you go look at her, it would behoove you to invest in bringing along a good dressage rider (in good, I mean someone who is actually good in the saddle and is good at matching horses to their riders). She does not look comfy at the canter, and I wonder if that's why there's so little canter shown. She's not using her back. It's hard to tell why: inexperience, lack of stregnth, the rider, the horse, etc. Being 5, I'd expect a better canter than this. But if she hasn't spent much time undersaddle in good training, there's soooooooo much that can be influenced and you might be able to get a nice horse for a great price.

PROS: She's 5, and if you are a good rider you can certainly enhance her gaits. If you have a good trainer, she looks like a fun partner to learn on. She looks incredibly tolerant, easy and fun to ride. She looks like she's trying to work with the rider and that her focus is on the rider- that's the kind of horse you want. That makes the horse worth their own wieght in gold. She looks like her attitude and temperament translate to the ground - again, that's the kind of horse you want to own. She looks like she has alot more talent than what is shown here. At the very least, she looks like a supremely appropriate partner for a dedicated lower level rider to learn correct dressage on. Maybe she can also go higher. Collection might be very easy for her but I don't see extended gaits being her forte. ANd that's fine.

If I were you, I'd find someone knowledgeable I really trusted and I would go see this horse. I would address her stiffness issues, but only in the context of everything else she has to offer. And she seems to have alot to offer you. Please update if you go see her in person!
J.

purplnurpl
Jun. 15, 2011, 09:52 AM
OMG CUTE!!!

for LL dressage?
if the vet check is passed I'd say SOLD! hehe.

LoveLongManes
Jun. 15, 2011, 10:40 AM
Thanks for the comments so far! The only reason I wrote lower level prospect is because I do not currently have the ability to ride and train to the higher levels. ;-) It would be nice to find something with that ability, perhaps while working with my trainer it might be an acheivable goal someday. :-)

Lost_at_C
Jun. 15, 2011, 11:39 AM
I like him!

From what I can see I suspect this horse has a heck of a lot more to offer in the way of gaits, especially trot. What's on the video is mostly typical sucked-back Morgan prettiness, although it does improve a bit later on. I'm not sure if Andies are the same, but the Morgan types I've worked with start out with two trot options - either the version shown in the video or the yeehah-strap-me-in-a-harness-i'm-a-racing-trotter variety. My preference is to start with something more forward instead of trying to develop it from that disenaged shuffle, though the rider here seems to do a reasonable job with it. Just my thoughts.

I'd snap him up myself if I was in the market, and he vetted clean. But then I'm 5'1" and I'm a sucker for these little dyanmos.

CFFarm
Jun. 15, 2011, 12:03 PM
Definately worth a closer look. :yes:

shawneeAcres
Jun. 15, 2011, 01:10 PM
Cute horse, could be freer thru the back, no there is no "head bob" amazes me that EVERY video posted seems to have someone that sees "lameness"! Seems somewhat green so OP needs to detgermine if she is prepared to continue with a green horse, see some "spooking" moments and balance issues in transitions, jsut needs time and training to get thru those issues, but OP needs to determine if they are capable of dealing with that

TickleFight
Jun. 15, 2011, 01:56 PM
Thanks for the comments so far! The only reason I wrote lower level prospect is because I do not currently have the ability to ride and train to the higher levels. ;-) It would be nice to find something with that ability, perhaps while working with my trainer it might be an acheivable goal someday. :-)

I think she looks very suitable for lower level dressage. What do you consider to be higher level... 2nd? FEI? J-Lu gives a very good assessment of the horse based on the video you provided, and I agree that she likely has more talent than is shown.

I don't think medium or extended gaits will be a strength for this horse, and her canter is unimpressive. Good riding will improve these over time, but they probably preclude her from being competitive at recognized shows beyond 3rd level or so.

That being said, she seems to be a very calm, kind horse, and I'll bet she tries hard for her rider. These attributes are valuable in any horse. I think you could learn a lot with this mare, and she can probably be a good bridge between lower and upper levels... even if you end up doing the upper levels on a different horse. If I were you I would seriously consider her.

quietann
Jun. 15, 2011, 02:47 PM
I like him!

From what I can see I suspect this horse has a heck of a lot more to offer in the way of gaits, especially trot. What's on the video is mostly typical sucked-back Morgan prettiness, although it does improve a bit later on. I'm not sure if Andies are the same, but the Morgan types I've worked with start out with two trot options - either the version shown in the video or the yeehah-strap-me-in-a-harness-i'm-a-racing-trotter variety. My preference is to start with something more forward instead of trying to develop it from that disenaged shuffle, though the rider here seems to do a reasonable job with it. Just my thoughts.

I'd snap him up myself if I was in the market, and he vetted clean. But then I'm 5'1" and I'm a sucker for these little dyanmos.

I'd say pretty much the same thing. Be prepared to work on getting this horse to stretch out to the bit. Morgans are really good at "assuming the position" and looking connected when they really aren't :) Mine has the "two trots" issue, too, though what seems to be helping with that is getting her into a trot rhythm/speed that works really well, and then alternating sitting/2-point/posting every few strides while maintaining it. (It's also really good for me as a rider!)

mickeydoodle
Jun. 15, 2011, 03:37 PM
Hmm, I guess I am in the minority. I do not see three good nor pure gaits.

1. The walk is very lateral (pacey) this will get you killed at the lower levels. There is no overstride in the walk. She moves with legs, but not through the body.

2. The trot is poor- it is quick, but shuffling. There is almost no moment of suspension. Again, she moves with the legs, but no reach in the shoulder, not "through" in the body. Can that be improved, yes some, but I see limited scope in this trot.

3. Canter is her best gait, but sometimes also has a lateral tendency, or almost 4-beat.

4. Mare (or gelding? "good boy"???) seems quite green for age.

Shiaway
Jun. 15, 2011, 04:17 PM
You can buy the gaits or you can make gaits. These types of horses don't usually have a lot of suspension, but you can buy it if you want. I would actually say the horse will probably shine more at the higher levels than the lower ones where her gaits will not be as nice as horses born with nice gaits. As her training and strength improves then I think the gaits will blossom more and will show up better with further work.

People are saying the horse is green but for most of the 5 years old I've seen amateurs riding, she's a lot further along than them. Do I think she will take you to WEG? No but do you think if you spent $100K on a horse you'd be going there anyway? So I think one has to be realistic with one's own riding and goals.

Others might compare her, in their mind's eye, to a bigger moving type of horse and she or he? is not going to be that but my horse has probably even less suspension and he's schooling 4th level without any struggle to do so. Will he be scoring 70% any time soon? Probably not. But he goes correctly and is a good teacher for me which I need the most. I'm not very into showing (just get too nervous and don't enjoy it) so it doesn't matter to me if I wouldn't clean up at a show because he doesn't have big gaits. He has some nice flying changes although you do have to make sure he's really through to get good ones. But that just makes you work harder and learn to ride better.

And if that walk is lateral than most of the WBs I see are pacing.

paulaedwina
Jun. 15, 2011, 04:27 PM
Cute horse, could be freer thru the back, no there is no "head bob" amazes me that EVERY video posted seems to have someone that sees "lameness"! Seems somewhat green so OP needs to detgermine if she is prepared to continue with a green horse, see some "spooking" moments and balance issues in transitions, jsut needs time and training to get thru those issues, but OP needs to determine if they are capable of dealing with that

In all fairness nobody used the word lame. I asked if I saw a head bob.

Paula

lovey1121
Jun. 15, 2011, 04:29 PM
As to sex, I do believe I saw boy parts.

I saw a very Morgany pretty guy, though green. 1st thing I look for is tracking up. This guy doesn't come close to tracking up, though he looks more relaxed and forward in the long-n-low. Rider, though she has a nice position, seems quite tentative and determined to keep that head down at all costs, and screw the forward...So I think its hard to tell whats up with him, and I agree that you'd want to bring a good rider/trainer with you to see about releasing that back and getting him to swing.

That said, he has tremendous curb appeal, and I liked him right away. But Nova Scotia is a long way to go, unless you are from there! Then again, its a great time of year to head Downeast--eat some lobsta and chowda-:cool:

purplnurpl
Jun. 15, 2011, 04:47 PM
Hmm, I guess I am in the minority. I do not see three good nor pure gaits.

1. The walk is very lateral (pacey) this will get you killed at the lower levels. There is no overstride in the walk. She moves with legs, but not through the body.

2. The trot is poor- it is quick, but shuffling. There is almost no moment of suspension. Again, she moves with the legs, but no reach in the shoulder, not "through" in the body. Can that be improved, yes some, but I see limited scope in this trot.

3. Canter is her best gait, but sometimes also has a lateral tendency, or almost 4-beat.

4. Mare (or gelding? "good boy"???) seems quite green for age.

no. you are not.
as you say, there is nothing going on in the hind end.
I was going to say that once you change riders then things may improve.

over bent 100% of the time
not ridden forward enough
broken at the wrong vertebrae

all of the above = tense back in which case you will see lateral gaits. I think they will go away with a different rider. One that is more elastic in their seat and more giving (less chicken wing as well) in the shoulder.

then I read this and was thinking "HUH???"

First of all, if the rider in the video is the trainer and person who started the horse, take your checkbook when you go see this mare. WHY? Because the person seems to be a decent rider. A few bobbles in position but overall I see someone who learned from the right people how to ride.

this rider is rides like an amateur. Just take your pocket book with you.

though I will say, this breed is tough and often will over flex at the poll--in which case a very correct trainer is needed...
and yes, the breed tends to lack suspension so that is most likely not going to go away.

I think the horse needs lots of work. but the blaze and socks are so flippin cute!!

quietann
Jun. 16, 2011, 10:44 AM
sorry I could not actually watch the video until now... Please tell me WHY that rider does not post the trot? Young, green horse, obviously not too strong in the back yet... Posting would probably also get it more forward.

(sorry, it's one of my pet peeves as a LL rider... WHY do people seem to think that "dressage = sit the trot"?)

I'm not experienced enough to comment beyond that, other than saying it's cute! Needs work, but cute :)

rabicon
Jun. 16, 2011, 10:59 AM
I think he is very cute. I do have a morgan X myself that is retired now that I showed. I will tell you that he moves alot like my guy use to. I improved his gaits as much as they could be but we never really got any suspension. We did get 8's in trot because he used himself and had rhythm and cadence. You can work on all this but it is hard. My guy never really got past 1st level and we only did that a little at schooling shows. His canter really never came off the forehand no matter how much I used my leg and seat and how much I worked it. He is very cute and I think you could have a lot of fun on him but it will also be alot of work over time. Right now I don't see him really using himself, he is hollow and not tracking up at the walk or trot. I'd go back to basics with him and get him moving forward before I'd worry about getting his head down. If you want to have fun and do some lower stuff and will work hard I'd go for him.

alto
Jun. 16, 2011, 12:29 PM
Brio does have a WOW moment in that video that shows his potential so if you have a great instructor/trainer, go buy him cause he is cute, cute, cute & he will likely take you as far as you want to go - get him out in the field & doing some (correct) jumping & this will help his canter & encourage him to use that hind end.

OTOH go buy him just cause he looks like such a nice boy :yes:
& I want to see more photos ;)

Keepthepeace
Jun. 16, 2011, 12:53 PM
As a trainer/coach for 30 years I would definitely look at this lovely young horse. Seems to have been well started and looks to have nice potential.

TickleFight
Jun. 16, 2011, 01:34 PM
(sorry, it's one of my pet peeves as a LL rider... WHY do people seem to think that "dressage = sit the trot"?)


There is no way to know why this particular rider didn't post on this particular horse.

I do not post on my horses except during warm-up, jumping, hacking etc. However, none of them are babies or just being started under saddle. For me, I ride and influence my horses primarily through my seat (supported by leg and, to a much lesser extent, rein aids) and posting removes that influence from the equation. Posting also limits the rider's ability to use leg aids in an independent and subtle way, resulting in tactless leg influence and greater use of the reins.

There are many roads to Rome, but for me (and I have ridden many horses at various levels of development) this system of riding works best with the greatest number of horses.

LoveLongManes
Jun. 16, 2011, 01:38 PM
It's really interesting to hear everyone's opinions!

From what I have been told they have spent a lot of time hacking him out on the trail rather than drilling him in the ring. She had him leased out to a rider who wasn't comfortable really riding him forward but she says with a stronger rider he will go on the bit. He accepts contact but will sometimes have a tendency to lean on your hands. He is uncomplicated to ride with no dirt. This is all just what I have been told as I haven't had the chance to see him in person myself yet. I do have a friend (who is also a very good rider) who has ridden him and she raves about him.

He is by the Andulsian stallion, Bojito M (http://www.doradoandaluz.com/DA/Stallions-Botijo.html) and out of a Morgan mare. I'm not sure if anyone is familiar with that stallion, I certainly am not.


But Nova Scotia is a long way to go, unless you are from there! Then again, its a great time of year to head Downeast--eat some lobsta and chowda-:cool:

Haha, I am from the area so there are really no worries about that!

AlterBy
Jun. 16, 2011, 02:33 PM
He is by the Andulsian stallion, Bojito M (http://www.doradoandaluz.com/DA/Stallions-Botijo.html) and out of a Morgan mare. I'm not sure if anyone is familiar with that stallion, I certainly am not.


Botijo M is a PRE, son of Sonador XIII out of Hungara XL (Invasor III)http://www.lgancce.com/lgpreancce/asp-publico/arbolGenealogicoPRE/ConsultarArbolGenealogicoPRE.aspx?ID=go+McdkdeR4=
He is an offspring of Yvonne Losos de Muniz's breeding program. (I believe she sold most of her PRE by now)

I rode Botijo's half brother. (Same father) Lots of caractere but with great potential!

Shiaway
Jun. 16, 2011, 03:18 PM
The leaning on the hands will go away as he gets stronger and as collection starts to develop where he can have more self carriage.

I post a lot when I ride but I'm not a trainer and my sitting trot could definitely be better than it is. If I had a young horse I would most certainly post and I would probably post on this guy. I don't think he's really accepting the seat or strong enough to perhaps?

I post in the warm up and then I also post when I'm giving my horse a break in-between his more collected work. I have been able to post and do passage at the same time so while it's a lot harder to influence the horse with your seat while you're posting, if I can do it, it's definitely not impossible LOL.

Bet he turns out to have a decent medium trot and surprises everyone. It's all how you develop these horses. I notice many WBs or other big movers seem to pop out of the womb with a beautiful lengthened trot and all it takes to perfect it is to get them shifted back more so they are more uphill, but it seems like their go-to state a lot of times.

Well, some of these horses are just like that except with the piaffe. They learn to piaffe very young and it's not so hard. Of course you still have to teach them to come through their back and really sit down when they're doing it.

So sometimes in the bigger moving horses you have to develop the piaffe/passage and likewise, in these types of horses you usually have to develop the medium/extended gaits. Some horses have it all and if you're rich you can go get one but most of us aren't rich ^_^.

netg
Jun. 16, 2011, 05:20 PM
I like him!

From what I can see I suspect this horse has a heck of a lot more to offer in the way of gaits, especially trot. What's on the video is mostly typical sucked-back Morgan prettiness, although it does improve a bit later on. I'm not sure if Andies are the same, but the Morgan types I've worked with start out with two trot options - either the version shown in the video or the yeehah-strap-me-in-a-harness-i'm-a-racing-trotter variety. My preference is to start with something more forward instead of trying to develop it from that disenaged shuffle, though the rider here seems to do a reasonable job with it. Just my thoughts.

I'd snap him up myself if I was in the market, and he vetted clean. But then I'm 5'1" and I'm a sucker for these little dyanmos.

What you described fits our Friesian/Andy cross perfectly. We don't know if she was previously ridden in drawreins or if it's because of the shape of her neck, but she has a natural tendency to put herself in a frame.... rather than using herself.

For the naturally high-headed, in my limited experience, a lot of long work, bending, using lateral work to encourage stretch and softness in the back, is how they really develop the back end and get where they can lift the head again but do it without hollowing/stiffening the back. You know, basic training scale stuff... In other words, an improved trot during stretchy work is exactly what I would expect of this horse who I think has plenty of potential and sounds as if it fits the OP's desires, if ridden with the support and help of a knowledgeable trainer.