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View Full Version : Is this Legend or are certain TB lines known for being belligerent?



Twilight
Jan. 5, 2006, 10:37 AM
I've heard from some racing folk that the Turn-To and Nasrullah lines tend to be difficult, belligerent(sp?)and willfull. Several people have told me this is due to the Hastings influence.

Is this even true or is it a myth? What are y'alls opinions?

DMK
Jan. 5, 2006, 11:23 AM
I thought it was pretty well accepted that Nasrullah lines could be tough. Actually I just worked with the assumption that the whole Nearco affair was bound to be full of tough horses (case in point, the Danzig obit pointed out that Danzig was a tough SOB like his dad Nothern Dancer - Nearctic/Nearco).

But I always equated it with "tough as in good racehorse tough". Like most really good athletes, you have to finesse the realtionship. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

OK, except for this one Nijinski colt I worked with. He was tough in the sense that he should have been put in a can of dogfood. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

fish
Jan. 5, 2006, 12:28 PM
The funny thing about these so-called "tough" lines, though, is that many of their members end up being famous for their EASY temperaments-- Nassrullah is perhaps the best example. His descendants are famous for "toughness," yet his son, Bold Ruler, and his descendants (e.g. Secretariat, Foolish Pleasure, etc.), are well known for their sweet dispositions. Furthermore, Nasrullah's son, Nashua, was perhaps THE single most famous for his toughness/stubborness (e.g. some days he wouldn't even leave the gate). Nonetheless, Nashua's son, Diplomat Way, was a wonderfully honest horse, famous for throwing equally diligent runners-- not to mention the very sweet show horse sire, Our Diplomat. My own Nashua line mare (her sire and broodmare sire were both out of Nashua mares) is the most solid, useful, cooperative horse I've ever met. My personal experience with the Nasrullah line horses is that they are marvelous athletes with a definite "racehorse-type" toughness that can work for or against you depending upon what you do with it-- both in the breeding shed (i.e. depending on the temperament you cross it with) and in training: it was hard to establish dominance over my own mare when I was starting her as a yearling, but once she accepted me as boss (e.g. stopped running right over me in the stall), she became the easiest horse I ever had-- in large part, I'm sure, because she's so bold, tough and confident that once she was into working for her trainer/rider, there was practically nothing that could spook her or distract her attention.

DMK
Jan. 5, 2006, 12:34 PM
That is too true, fish. I own two Diplomat Way horses and both of them are the easiest going horses out there. But as much as I think there are tough lines out there, I think it's tough to say anything statistically valid about a 3rd or greater generation. Which is pretty much what we are talking about. Lot of other things floating around in the genetic pool by that point.

Marli
Jan. 5, 2006, 12:51 PM
Bold Ruler? Well, I've had 3 geldings (Bold Ruler 2/3 generation) and all must've been oddballs! Mine all had a strong will and were definately beligerant in training.

moonriverfarm
Jan. 5, 2006, 01:25 PM
What about Mr Prospector horses? I have had quite a few and they all seem so mellow.

Kim
Jan. 5, 2006, 01:30 PM
Furthermore, Nasrullah's son, Nashua, was perhaps THE single most famous for his toughness/stubborness (e.g. some days he wouldn't even leave the gate).

I have a nearly 29-year-old Nashua granddaughter who has been very *opinionated* since the day we met 21 years ago (and before that as well, according to her previous owner!) http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif I wouldn't trade her for the world.

TKR
Jan. 5, 2006, 01:58 PM
Foolish Pleasure -- SWEET??? Uh Uh! He was a mean sob, had to wear a chain over his halter noseband all the time. I absolutely adore the Nashua bloodlines I've bred and the broodmare that was a Nashua granddaughter -- very smart, mellow, etc. The Nashua son I bred too (Beldale Ball was a bit tense, but kind and the colt I had (out of a very alpha mare) was an incredible athlete and became a packer later on. I know Jig Time x Native Dancer would hurt someone, but the mare I had by him was a sweetheart, although opinionated and her son (a stallion I bred) is as easy, kind and docile as one could ask. You have to look at the bottom lines and the whole pedigree as well as how they were handled.
PennyG

fish
Jan. 5, 2006, 04:05 PM
Seems to me that what we hear about these different lines depends a lot on our sources... 'fraid I was guessing on Foolish Pleasure based upon the offspring I've seen that made nice hunters, and a very sweet filly I saw at a sale.

Speaking of which-- and getting back to the need to look at the whole pedigree: the 2 sweetest horses I've ever had (including the one with all the Nashua blood), were both by Speak John stallions--- the one crossed with the Nashua lines is confident, steady, and sweet. The other, Speak John x Northern Dancer x Bold Ruler, was even sweeter-- but also a much more difficult ride because she was much less confident and so quick and sensitive... which I attributed to the N.D. in her-- largely based on a few Lyphards I've ridden.

Anyone have more knowledge of these lines/crosses-- especially Speak John/Prince John horses? I'd love to find another like that 2nd horse-- but I bought her a long time ago (15 years)-- so the names in her pedigree have kind of fallen off the catalogue pages by now and I've been away from the TB world so long that I wouldn't have a clue of what to look for anymore.

Pferdchen
Jan. 5, 2006, 07:02 PM
In my experience, there certainly are certain personality traits associated with certain bloodlines, BUT...how these traits manifest themselves depends on if they come down through the sire line or the dam line. It's a proven fact that the mare has ALOT more to do with the ultimate temperament/personality of the foal than the daddy does...it's been said that the mare contributes at least 60%, compared to the stallion's 40%...but I'd go so far as to say the mare contributes up to 80%! After all, she's not only contributing the genes, but she has the raising of the baby during its most impressionable phase! I've seen an experiment in which a cross was performed, where a really gnarly-tempered stallion was bred to a total sweetheart of a mare, and the resulting foal was a very nice-minded individual. A mirror-image cross was done that same year, with a mare that was the full sister of the gnarly above-mentioned stallion (and she was a b*tch) and she was bred to an extremely sweet natured stallion...and her foal was just like her: hot as a sheriff's pistol, and would just as soon bite or kick you as look at you. (btw...interesting as the experiment was, personally I would have NEVER bred the icky-minded horses...don't care how athletic or beautiful they may have been...but that's just my personal opinion...I won't get on my breeding pet peeve soapbox here! LOL)
By the by, I have a mare that I raised that is Exclusive Native on top and Khalborough was the dam sire...anyone feel like venturing a guess about her personality based on that? LOL

WindyIsle
Jan. 5, 2006, 08:12 PM
Liz Morris (female jock who rides at Hawthorne and Arlington - good friend of the family - I *adore* her she's awesome) - swears hands down that the Storm Cat babies - his entire line - can be handfuls.

Very tough when not handled correctly and very sensitive. You can't bully them or rush them or they explode on you.

Friend has a Storm Cat grandson Ouregan, a big dark bay stallion and he's the sweetest easiest going thoroughbred stallion I've met.

He's also from the Mr. Prospector line (sire is Gone West) I've heard also that the Mr. P lines can be a bit iffy - guess the two lines cancelled themselves out in Ouregan's (French for Hurricane) case.

lizathenag
Jan. 5, 2006, 09:31 PM
I have always heard (and experienced) that the Ribot's can be a handful.

Everythingbutwings
Jan. 6, 2006, 04:35 AM
The Ribot's need a job. They get cranky just hanging around. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

DMK
Jan. 6, 2006, 04:58 AM
fish, I had a Silent Cal son (Hold Your Peace, Speak John) who was an absolute angel. Had the best manners on the planet. That's not to say he was an easy ride. He could be very strong, but that had a lot more to do with the fact he was good at his first job (race horse) and nobody consulted him on the career change (hunter). But not a dirtyl bone in his body.

Had a hard peek at the fences though.

If I had stumbled on to him later in life when I was a better rider, he easily would have been the best horse I ever owned. But he was too sensitive to take be lied to. And I lied a lot back then. (No, leave here... no there... no... yes... no) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Timex
Jan. 6, 2006, 06:49 AM
my Mr P x Damascus mare is so very sweet. My Roberto x My Primce II (Euro TB) is very laid back, but VERY opinionated when she wants to be. While temperments may be at least somewhat genetic, i'll never rule out each horse's environment. for example, the breeder i ride for has 3 full siblings, a mare (the oldest), a stud, and a gelding (the baby). the stud and the gelding were raised on the family farm, and are really sweet guys. goofy at times, like to be kept busy, but very easy to work with. The mare, on the other hand, had been sent to a 'trainer' (long before I came along, thankfully) as a youngster (3, i think) to be 'trained' and now, at 7, is a huge handful, distrustful, very difficult to ride, and handling her is tricky. total opposite of her brothers (anyone see the pics i had posted of my morgan stud? this is his sister) and her daughter? a total puppydog.

ASB Stars
Jan. 6, 2006, 07:13 AM
I stood a stud for a syndicate years ago who was by Nashua, out of a Round Table mare. He was the meanest, dumbest SOB that ever drew breath. I also blame whoever raised him, because they didn't make any effort to socialize him at all, and you couldn't even turn him out, and think he'd be alright.

He wanted to bite, kick, or strike at you at any opportunity. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gifThey guy that got him after me called to see how I had handled him, after having him in the barn two days.

I said, "Charlie, did you ever dance with a fat man?" http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

witherbee
Jan. 6, 2006, 07:50 AM
I've heard from someone witha lot of firsthand knowledge that Cure the Blues was a nasty SOB and was close to killer status. He's got Nearco 4 back on both sides, Nasrullah 3 back on dams side and Bold Ruler 2 back on dams side. Not sure how much it means, but I think that enough people have dealt with these lines over the years, and of course there are exceptions but I think there is some credance to it. Would it stop me from buying one as a hunter or a pleasure horse? No, I'd need to see the horse in person, handle it and talk to the trainer and groom to make my decision. Many times the actual sire and dam have more to do with it than even 2 or three generations back. I also agree that I take the dam more into consideration, but I have had a couple of the stallions that we stand really stamp their get temperament and personality quirk-wise http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif. My own colt is by a stallion that consistantly throws babies that paw the ground when they want something (even though the stallion does not stand at the farm that these babies are raised at). Too funny how some traits are passed on...

Alagirl
Jan. 6, 2006, 08:18 AM
I have to go back and check the pedigrees of our old gals...I think most had Nearco in them, but with the exception of one they where all perfect ladies - as far as the mare thing goes http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The Quirky one was by Krakatao (sp) who - I've been - made for difficult babies...

Then we had the foals by one stallion, two full brothers and a half sister (yeah, yeah, I know, but for ease of explenation...)

And all three where nuts - good jumpers but nuts! The oldest colt you couldn't brush his legs! He'd spook from his on devious thoughts! The only horse who ever made me walk home - solo. And that wasn't even far from the barn!

The filly would pick matchraces with deer when you encountered them in the woods! Bold! Her way of testing saftey of new objects was to take a bite out of it - if it didn't move or bite back it was safe!

And Colt #2 (mine http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif) was a chauvinist pig! And no, even stronger equestriennes than me - and they are NOT hard to come by - had their trouble with him. And guy, no matter how weak, had an easy ride with him!

Gotta look up Gimont - the sire...


But sometimes I think it is just a bunch of BS, when somebody can't or won't deal with it, it has to be the Sire, no matter how far back. Or when they have enough get, there are bound to be some rough ones around, and the mare has a lot to say about the foals behaviour!


Edited to say: I stand corrected! Two of our mares did indeed go back to Nearco - Through Celadon-Kracatao... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

But Gimont didn't http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Twilight
Jan. 6, 2006, 11:03 AM
Both my mares are ill-mannered cows to work around but both have great hearts, performance-wise.

Now I am thinking the lack of manners is a reflection of their early handling (or lack thereof) than their bloodlines!

Phyllis (There She Was) has the Secretariat lines - out of a very undistinguished stallion - Cold Reception.

Perturbed has the Princequillo, Intentionally, Blenheim lines. Her sire was Tequillo - not sure what he did.

I don't really know that much about bloodlines - I figure they are probably pretty diluted by the time those mares were foaled!

GallantGesture
Jan. 6, 2006, 03:40 PM
My horse is a Nijinksy grandson and has most of the others mentioned above further back in his pedigree except Mr. P. He is a great horse, but it took a while to earn his trust and respect, and now he is very much MY horse, I think he is very sweet but apparently everyone else gets the ugly ears from him (including the dogs). He is super sensitive and hot, but has a huge heart and more try than any other horse I've ridden that more than makes up for his underlying crankiness. Not a beginner's horse in any way, but I wouldn't trade him for the world, I think he'd do anything for me. He is one that I've had to learn to work with though, and we've had to compromise on many things... now that we've got it all figured out though I'd definitely recommend whatever breeding made him! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Here's his pedigree if anyone's interested http://www.pedigreequery.com/gallant+gesture

Chanter
Jan. 6, 2006, 04:06 PM
As a personal slave to TB's in training, I am not overly fond of most boys by Tobasco Cat (read Storm Cat). They just come with a 'tude. Just my experience.

I know other Storm Cat grand kids I could have well lived without in my life too.

Worked with one this spring that could NEVER go to the track alone for the safety of all concerned. Trainer did not have a pony horse. Let's just say I personally know how to jog. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I have worked with some direct Storm Cat filly's that were just plain horses like any other horse. *go figure*

fish
Jan. 6, 2006, 05:47 PM
I young woman who braided for me recently acquired a Storm Cat filly from Rodney Jenkins. She says this is, in every way, the nicest horse she's ever owned.

I have been thinking back, too, on stallions I've known whose temperaments-- and reputations-- changed dramatically with a change in owners/handlers: e.g. Unfold was so unruly when I first saw him that his handler couldn't get him to stand still to be looked at. Within a year of being moved to Va., he was apparently a completely different animal-- and quite popular among show horse people.

While I know I recognize a lot of family characteristics in various lines, it does seem to me that the overall bad/good, belligerent/agreeable distinction is way too broad-- and way, way too dependent upon how the people involved with the horse manage to mesh with the personality... not to mention a slew of other potential factors: e.g. whether or not the horse is physically uncomfortable from ulcers, injuries, etc., etc.

Chanter
Jan. 6, 2006, 06:01 PM
Now what did I just say about Storm Cat girls? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

fish
Jan. 6, 2006, 07:14 PM
Maybe those direct Storm Cat fillies are nice because Storm Cat attracts super nice mares?!???

Meadow36
Jan. 6, 2006, 08:51 PM
I've got one - Halo. Was a meanie himself as were many of his offspring, including Sunny's Halo and the brothers Devil's Bag and Saint Ballado. Sunday Silence was a PITA also, reared up and kicked his poor trainer in the head on TV.

I've had two OTTB by Saint Ballado and although wicked smart, they were both nasty to deal with. I try to stay away from anything Halo when looking for OTTB's.

KateB
Jan. 6, 2006, 11:54 PM
I have one of Slew's sons, a colt, and he's got his Father's temperment and quirks down pat.
His intelligence is spooky and he LOVES to work. When he was off for a bit he would "train" himself in his paddock all day - jog for awhile around the fence line and then gallop, jog then gallop. It kind of freaked people at the farm out - they thought it looked like he had a phantom rider on his back and thought he might just be possesed.
He isn't *too" difficult when he's in training or racing and out working everyday BUT if he doesn't get to be out and running everyday he can be a real handful - exactly like his Dad.
People that knew his Dad very closely always comment on how alike they are in so many ways - both good and bad.
I also have some Slew grandsons and granddaughters and the similarities aren't nearly as pronounced. So it it may just be that some of those traits become diluted through the generations - they would almost have to.

War Admiral
Jan. 7, 2006, 07:33 AM
Originally posted by Everythingbutwings:
The Ribot's need a job. They get cranky just hanging around. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

True. Avery is a double Turn-To, Ribot within 4 up top. He loffs his work and puts everything he's got into it - gets very cranky and offended when not in work (which makes him a difficult horse to try and retire). He is hyperintelligent & hyperopinionated, and if handled roughly or in a way that he considers to be unfair, he lays down the law in no uncertain terms. He will fight up a storm if anybody tries to *dictate* to him. Prefers the more subtle approach. I guess some would *consider* this to be a difficult personality to work with; I happen to enjoy it.

I must say he has made me a Turn-To convert!!

Tory Relic
Jan. 8, 2006, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by fish:
The funny thing about these so-called "tough" lines, though, is that many of their members end up being famous for their EASY temperaments-- Nassrullah is perhaps the best example. His descendants are famous for "toughness," yet his son, Bold Ruler, and his descendants (e.g. Secretariat, Foolish Pleasure, etc.), are well known for their sweet dispositions.

I worked with an Honest Pleasure mare that I wanted to take home with me back in the early 80s.

My OTTB mare, is a Seattle Slew granddaughter and is a sweetheart -- unless you try to force into anything. Then she's stubborn; but if she understands what you want and you ask it of her, she's very good. She has Raise A Native bloodlines on her dam lines, though.

fish
Jan. 8, 2006, 04:35 PM
Speaking of Raise A Native: I broke one for the track (a $400,000 Keeneland purchase)-- easy and straightforward as a machine-- you know, so easy it was almost as though he didn't have a personality. Is this characteristic of that line?
(I hear Alydar was one, though-- and a difficult horse with a lot of difficult babies (although it sure didn't seem to prevent them from getting a lot of work done!)

Someone asked for lines good for sporthorses: I'd say Spectacular Bid HAS to be among them... and kind of no surprise. After all, Delp trusted him enough to pack Bobby Franklin around racing's most demanding courses, and the Bid's son, Mytens, was (until his recent death) one of the most popular stallions on the Holsteiner Verband roster.

I tend to think that just about any time you find a successful TB racehorse with an uphill build and arching, high set neck, you've probably got a pretty good showhorse prospect. I thought Spectacular Bid looked like a fancy showhorse when I saw him at Claiborne almost 20 years ago, but no one was going to send a show horse mare to him there! Back in 1979, George Morris was saying that the only reason the WB's were going to take over the showhorse market was that sport horse $ could not compete with racehorse $ for the really good TB's. I think he was 100% correct-- and would sure like to see what Fu-Peg could do over fences-- or in a dressage arena.

findeight
Jan. 9, 2006, 06:18 AM
I had a chestnut gelding that was a literal rescue-found starving in a field when his teenaged owner was caught selling drugs in high school, her folks threw the horse in the field with nothing....in winter...in the midwest.

His tatoo said he was an own grandson of Mr P on top and his dam was by Spectacular Bid and when he bloomed back to health he looked it.

What a jerk. I don't mind the hot ones but this one had to be placed perfectly to each fence or you'd hear about it, even the Pro riders. Never knew when he might explode just walking around and you could do all the negotiating you wanted, he wasn't going to co operate unless he felt like it.
Bundles in vet bills, saddle changes, therapeautic shoes et al.
He just was never going to soften up.

Current mare suprised me when I pulled the pedigree, alot of Bold Ruler but most on the female side. Tail female goes to Argentinian breds that raced at Santa Anita in the early 60s.
Stakes winning Grandsire was the son of a European import(Mahmoud) and her stakes placed sire actually was shipped BACK to France to sire sporthorses.

Had an old Appendix that was an own grandson of Nashua on top and Leo(AQHA)on the bottom-he was tatooed from starting on the QH tracks and was still a pistol and doing the 3' Hunters at 22.

IMO it's got alot to do with training BUT they have to be willing to accept that training. Sometimes they just don't get that when they are bred to do or die at the track and I think you can say certain lines are worse, particularly in 2 or 3 generations or less. Farther back I don't think it matters unless the other crosses are just as notorious.

I remember a stud at a neighboring farm way back...I think his name was Dr. Fagin? Fagen? Fagan? Named after a vet. Mauled a couple of grooms. Babies equally disagreeable from day one. But they won.
No idea how far down they got that.

fish
Jan. 9, 2006, 07:09 AM
I think a lot of people forget, though, that part of being able to "do or die" at the track involves a steadiness and ability to focus on the job despite a helluva lot of heavy-duty distractions that are bound to make a lot of even the best bred ones crack. T.J. Kelly used to have his babies broken at a farm with fog-covered cattle lowing in a canal at the first turn, and a wrecking yard complete with cranes swinging around and dropping entire cars on the backside. He liked this farm precisely because of these spook factories, figuring it was the best way to prepare his babies so they wouldn't have nervous breakdowns when they reached the track-- which, of course, a lot of them did anyway.

This is why buying OTTB's for the shows has to be a pretty selective process-- and why the ones who come out of racing both mentally and physically sound are gems to be cherished (and reproduced if at all possible) indeed!

That being said: I can't help but wonder whether the problems with that fancy horse may have come from the Mr. P rather than the Bid side: case in point: the groom at Claiborne told me that Conquistador Cielo was the stupidest horse he'd ever handled.

There are, however, a lot of Mr. P.'s doing well at the shows-- guess there are just too many factors to make establishing causality anything better than more or less educated guesswork.

Pretty sorry state: I'm guessing that I'm guessing http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

DMK
Jan. 9, 2006, 07:37 AM
Originally posted by fish:
I think a lot of people forget, though, that part of being able to "do or die" at the track involves a steadiness and ability to focus on the job despite a helluva lot of heavy-duty distractions that are bound to make a lot of even the best bred ones crack. T.J. Kelly used to have his babies broken at a farm with fog-covered cattle lowing in a canal at the first turn, and a wrecking yard complete with cranes swinging around and dropping entire cars on the backside. He liked this farm precisely because of these spook factories, figuring it was the best way to prepare his babies so they wouldn't have nervous breakdowns when they reached the track-- which, of course, a lot of them did anyway.

This is why buying OTTB's for the shows has to be a pretty selective process-- and why the ones who come out of racing both mentally and physically sound are gems to be cherished (and reproduced if at all possible) indeed!

That being said: I can't help but wonder whether the problems with that fancy horse may have come from the Mr. P rather than the Bid side: case in point: the groom at Claiborne told me that Conquistador Cielo was the stupidest horse he'd ever handled.

There are, however, a lot of Mr. P.'s doing well at the shows-- guess there are just too many factors to make establishing causality anything better than more or less educated guesswork.

Pretty sorry state: I'm guessing that I'm guessing http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

There are also a lot more Mr. Ps out there than Bids (a sad thing if you ask me http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ). So I figure no matter how Not Bright some Mr. Ps may be, if you get enough of them the law of large numbers is bound to kick in and you will end up with some sharper tools. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Findeight, I'm guessing you mean the great FL stallion Dr. Fager? He was named after the neurosurgeon that saved John Nerud's life. I don't know how he handled since he died some yeras ago (he was in the Round Table era), but his offspring were always good eggs. And of course without Dr. Fager (both of them) we wouldn't have had John Nerud and Unbridled.

fish, good point about the track effect. I spent enough years on the track to know when one was too stupid for that job. But some of the best racehorses make lousy pleasure horses precisely because they were good at their original job. That's different from horses that even people at the track wish would never get a chance to pass on their "special" personalities!

findeight
Jan. 9, 2006, 08:12 AM
This nasty stallion was standing at Old English in Ontario California in the late 60's.
Maybe he mellowed and maybe his get past the first generation did as well...but I can attest that he was one nasty customer at the time, so were his youngsters.

I have no doubt my gelding's Mr. P side contributed more then the Bid side (including the lousy feet).
There is at least one successful Bid baby doing the Hunters.

Round Table? Remember that one and Olden Times as well-both tail female in my mare though too far back to mean anything.

InVA
Jan. 9, 2006, 08:50 AM
Seattle Slew - used to walk to the track to work on his hind legs! (naughty)

Tabasco Cat- I've ridden one of his sons - total fruitcake though a LOVELY mover and gorgeous horse.

my ottb is by Tactical Advantage- he is a LAMB!!!

DMK
Jan. 9, 2006, 09:19 AM
I handled one of the last sons of Olden Times for years. Had an Olden Times granddaughter as well. You still see them in the Full Pocket line, but that's about it.

Olden Times was one tough old buzzard, but a horse had to be tough to survive under the Rex Ellsworth program.

fish
Jan. 9, 2006, 09:29 AM
"But some of the best racehorses make lousy pleasure horses precisely because they were good at their original job."
Quite true-- but I think that's most often less because of their breeding than because they're horses who really put their whole hearts into their job descriptions and have a hard time figuring out that every time a rider picks up the bit it doesn't mean run! I could see a lot of them as the sort who'll complete a hunter course even when the rider falls off in the opening circle if that had been their lst job description.

Re: Slew: It's a shame he ever got to that state (walking on his hind legs.) I've known Paula Turner, who broke him and rode him in his first gallops, for many, many years and the only problem she's ever talked about having with him concerned his crooked front leg and "Baby Huey" klutziness and sweet innocent personality. She worked like the devil to build his courage, fitness and coordination, because she was so afraid that leg wouldn't hold up... especially if he didn't learn how to use himself properly-- so he got a lot of dressage.

Slew actually sounds a lot now like a huge, klutzy Barbizon colt I helped start for T.J. On the farm, he was definitely a "Baby Huey"-- tended to wander lazily around the track sucking on his tongue (you could see the pink edge of it on the front and right side of his muzzle and hear him sucking). I heard he became a terror when he moved to Calder: walking on his hindlegs to the track-- pretty scarey for a not terribly well coordinated 17hand 2 year old http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

findeight
Jan. 9, 2006, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by DMK:
Olden Times was one tough old buzzard, but a horse had to be tough to survive under the Rex Ellsworth program.

Oh, jesh..forgot about that-which is a good thing. Never forget Derby winning Swaps standing on a pile of sh*t or the dead foals in the field for days http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

DMK
Jan. 9, 2006, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by fish:
"But some of the best racehorses make lousy pleasure horses precisely because they were good at their original job."
Quite true-- but I think that's most often less because of their breeding than because they're horses who really put their whole hearts into their job descriptions and have a hard time figuring out that every time a rider picks up the bit it doesn't mean run! I could see a lot of them as the sort who'll complete a hunter course even when the rider falls off in the opening circle if that had been their lst job description.

Agreed, as evidenced by my observation on my Silent Cal bred hunter. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


I had a Silent Cal son (Hold Your Peace, Speak John) who was an absolute angel. Had the best manners on the planet. That's not to say he was an easy ride. He could be very strong, but that had a lot more to do with the fact he was good at his first job (race horse) and nobody consulted him on the career change (hunter). But not a dirty bone in his body.

Oh, in the small world department, a few years ago I was doing due diligence for an acquisition of a small dot com type company in Texas, and was meeting with the CFO to review our game plan, and we got to talking. When he heard I owned horses and had worked at the track, he mentioned his granddad had race horses. I'm thinking something like "you grandpop and a few thousand others..."

And then he told me his grandfather was Rex Ellsworth (he didn't have the same surname). Uh, yea, I had heard of him. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

He did mention his granddad was a tough old bastard. I mentioned as how I had heard stuff along those lines... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

findeight
Jan. 9, 2006, 09:57 AM
On checking I find Olden Times is her dam's grandsire so it's closer then I thought, and it's Prove It not Round Table but another generation back. Neither would have much influence...although she is a TB mare all the way and requires some negotiation http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

You ever wonder if old Rex could get away with that stuff or if Misch Tenney would be much in demand today?

They ran farrier and jockey "schools" at this factory farm to get "students" to pay for doing all the barn work..Huck Finn indeed.

cgn38
Jan. 9, 2006, 11:29 AM
I have a Gate Dancer grandson who is the smartest but most sensitive and most willful TB that I have ever re-trained. Don't fight with this horse because that is just what he wants.

Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.
Jan. 11, 2006, 09:35 AM
In the hunter world..our Sunny's Halo mare has always been a BEEEYATCH dominant monster in the paddock..but a fabulous jumper and performer. Decades ago, there wasn't a Bull Lea in the show ring that wasn't talented, but AWFUL to deal with on the ground and under saddle.

juliab
Jan. 12, 2006, 06:54 AM
I have a Storm Cat grandson that I am trying to market as a sporthorse sire and the Storm Cat "rep" can be frustrating as one of the first questions anyone asks is: "How is his temperament - is he mean like his Grand sire?" Well, I am a first time stallion owner and went into this with some trepidation but my guy lives happily with a gelding and is a total sweetheart. His worst "vice" is that he likes you to play with his tongue! I've only bred him once so far and he was a gentleman with the mare. It just seems a shame because I think a lot of sporthorse breeders see Storm Cat up fairly close and write him off based on temperament. He's by Forest Wildcat, btw. Does anyone know what kind of temperament Forest Wildcat has?

Feenikks
Jan. 12, 2006, 01:09 PM
Northern Dancer was a bull (and not a Holy Bull either http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) and Scarlet Ibis, he also is a beast. His children and N. Dancer's children that we had were all tough, all rough and some, down right mean! But awesome runners.

Feenikks
Jan. 12, 2006, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by fish:
Maybe those direct Storm Cat fillies are nice because Storm Cat attracts super nice mares?!???

Yeah because his stud fee is 500K.. that would attract the classy gals! hahaa

Afton
Jan. 14, 2006, 11:35 AM
Like Juliab, I'm interested in knowing what Forest Wildcat's temperament is like--I have a filly who is his granddaughter.

ridexc
Jan. 15, 2006, 11:25 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Feenikks:
Northern Dancer was a bull (and not a Holy Bull either http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Yeah, well, the Dancer was only 15:1 and a smidge. You know what they say about short men over-compensating .... <G>

Lady Counselor
Jan. 16, 2006, 10:50 AM
I had a Fappiano-Storm Bird mix who was quite a handful. He was also one of the neatest horses I've ever met. Tough, but neat.And I had a Kings Bishop gelding out of a daughter from the Ridan line who was VERY mouthy and tough. He had quite the reputation, and deservedly so. Good runner though.
But by far the toughest horse I ever trained was a filly by Avatar out of Fragile Witness by Court Martial. She had a double Nasrullah cross in her lineage. This horse would put you into the corner of the stall if you weren't careful. I still have scars from her. But man oh man, could she run....

fish
Jan. 16, 2006, 11:01 AM
I helped break a King's Bishop filly, Promised Mate. IMO, she was the sweetest, prettiest, nicest moving of the 40-horse crop. One of the other riders said of her "the lights are on, but nobody's home." I could never figure out where she was coming from.
Promised Mate turned out to be a stakes runner and stakes producer. I was really proud of her.

BTW-- the toughest horses in that barn were all by Sauce Boat (Key to the Mint).

mbj
Jan. 16, 2006, 12:30 PM
The couple Storm Cat grandchildren I've worked with were very sweet and pretty. Definite show hunter material. But the maternal line was always fancy, of course.

btilton
Jan. 16, 2006, 03:02 PM
Has anyone else run into any Irish River's off the track? I know he's pricey so there probably aren't many... but I had one, huge huge huge, not excessively tall, but just massive... and one of the kindest, most pleasant animals I've retrained. No spook in him, not real smart, but a nice big dumb friendly jock...

Not popular racing lines, but Close Watch's I've found wonderful. My Mr. P was sweet and a good racehorse and great broodmare, but not very smart and flighty. My Roberto mare was the same, athletic, pretty, sweet but not very smart. I don't alway need smart, as long as it doesn't go with scared of their own shadow.

My favorite older one has to be Count Fleet, I've loved them all, again... my off spring of his, years ago, big dumb jocks, but they could jump, were sweet and tried really hard... and once they were trained, they were auto pilot...

Has anyone heard anything about either Unbridled's Song or Unbridled? not likely many of those running around OTTB.
B

fish
Jan. 16, 2006, 03:25 PM
I once worked for a big name hunter trainer who said she always preferred the "dumb blond" types who just learned their job and did it, not being prone to coming up with bright ideas when they were the last thing needed!

One of her favorites was a big grey TB Ammy Owner and Equitation horses who was so simple-minded that he never broke rhythm once the opening circle started and jumped anything he was pointed at. She likes to tell about the time his owner arrived at a show even later than usual, jumped on the horse without learning the course very well, went in anyway, and jumped a nice fluid round, going over 2 oxers backwards.

btilton
Jan. 16, 2006, 05:15 PM
I personally look for young horses that are maybe a hair simple minded, but basically bold in being that way. I simple scaredy cat horse is no use at all, but the ones whose mommy's were head of the heard, the ones who never learned to be afriad, and were also kinda dumb in general, they are like that! They just learn a job, at some point the light bulb clicks on, they get their job and they just do it, no questions for the most part... that was that big Irish River gelding I had... to a tee!

But God forbid you ask for a counter canter... once he learned auto changes, there was no keeping him on the 'wrong' one!

ridexc
Jan. 17, 2006, 08:31 AM
Interesting ... I guess the straightforward, 40-watt bulb types probably do suit the hunter game best, but personally, as an eventer, I want a horse who can think on his feet! So while I can't abide a nasty horse, I don't mind one who questions authority a bit or thinks he's All That ... the difficult or uberintelligent ones, in my experience, are also the brilliant ones who'll save your sorry tuckus out there when it needs saving. I actually go out of my way to find the Alphas ... and if they did some winning at the track, so much the better, because that seems to really inflate their egos. A horse like that says "bring it on" when I point him at a trakehner with a yawning ditch underneath ... well, most of the time, anyway. <G>

Interesting comment about Sauce Boat ... I have a mare who goes back to him on the dam side, and it does explain a fair bit!

WindyIsle
Jan. 17, 2006, 01:02 PM
Isn't Tabasco Cat a grandson of Sauce Boat?

He was supposed to be hell and a half.

loomoftheland
Jan. 17, 2006, 01:54 PM
Ahh, nature versus nurture. I wondered about my gelding's lineage but don't know much about TB pedigrees (other than looking at them on pedigreequery). His sire is Apalachee, whom I know nothing about (other than that HIS sire was Round Table, whom my gelding strongly resembles); his dam has Nasrullah and Native Dancer in her lines, 3rd generation back.

Do any of you know anything about Apalachee?

He is another fighter like some of you have described - but once I learned *not* to fight him, he's been a gem. Super-smart, always curious, very playful and quite bold...these characteristics are more nature than nurture IMO.

fish
Jan. 17, 2006, 02:07 PM
"Isn't Tabasco Cat a grandson of Sauce Boat?"

>>> Sure 'nuff: out of Barbeque Sauce, by Sauce Boat-- and here poor innocent Storm Cat's been
getting the bum rap!

Shoot!!: the quickness of an ND crossed with the inclinations of a Sauce Boat I'll BET T.C. was a terror. Ouch!

bwills
Jan. 17, 2006, 04:58 PM
cgn38, I have a gelding by Gate Dancer, like you said super smart, he's pretty willing but I have found it better to wait him out than get into a huge fight. He is very willing over fences though!!

Chanter
Jan. 17, 2006, 06:14 PM
Yes TC is a SB grandson. But, I have worked with literal dozens of SC kids, grandkids & greatgrand kids. SC is not to be construed as totally innocent! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

WindyIsle
Jan. 17, 2006, 06:30 PM
Anyone know anything about the Robyn Dancer foals?

Friend has a mare - gorgeous mare, awesome mover - dumb as a box of rocks XP. I call her Blondie (no offense to smart blonds but seriously I'm thinking of dying this mare gold instead of bay).

hcwells
Jan. 18, 2006, 07:00 AM
Tabasco Cat is the one who killed Lukas' son, no? He's got some pretty babies out there, but some of them don't seem quite as sharp (intelligence-wise) as the other S/C babies and grand-babies.

As far as Apalachee... I've been around a few Apalachee broodmares, and owned one a few years back. Those that I was around were big handsome horses, not especially refined, but good-looking. My mare was a lovely mover, though she was older and used as a race-bred broodmare only when I got her. She could be tough but would do anything if you asked her in a way she found acceptable LOL.

Artax was out of an Apalachee mare, and he was one cool dude. Very smart boy... his bridle broke in the paddock one day before a race, and he waited calmly with reins around his neck until a replacement could be fetched from the barn http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

TKR
Jan. 18, 2006, 07:34 AM
Tabasco Cat didn't "kill" Lucas' son (asst trainer), he injured him severely and he wound up hospitalized for some time.

I think Victory Gallop (could be wrong) killed an exercise rider.

PennyG

Janet
Jan. 18, 2006, 07:37 AM
Yes, some TB lines are "known for being belligerent", or hot, or whatever. But they are "known for" because people are looking for a reason/excuse for the horse's temperament.

For every "hot" line, you will find plenty of laid back relaxed horses in that line too.

You can't give all the credit to the mares either.

Look at this pedigree
Spy Illusion (http://www.pedigreequery.com/spy+illusion)

Nasrullah and Princequillo twice each, plus another dose of Nearco through Royal Charger. A recipe for a "hot horse".

But he is a complete pussy cat. In fact, a bit of a wimp. I can (and have) put a six year old on him without a leading rein.

And before you say that "the hot blood is diluted by the other horses in the pedigree", I will tell you that his FULL SISTER is the absolute epitome of the reputation. Hot, opinionated, agressive, talented. But a great competition partner once she is "on your side".

So yes, some sire lined have a "reputation". And SOME of their descendants live up to it. But SOME of there descendents (even with IDENTICAL bloodlines) are nothing like that at all.

So if you see one of the "horses with a reputation" in the pedigree, it is worth LOOKING at the temperament side. But don't EXPECT it.

Same with conformation. If I see Mr.P close up, I am going to look to see IF there is a crooked front leg. But there are plenty of Mr. P's out there with perfect front legs.

Janet
Jan. 18, 2006, 07:48 AM
Originally posted by lizathenag:
I have always heard (and experienced) that the Ribot's can be a handful. I have/had two tail male to Ribot.

Music in 3 generations, Brain (through Pleasant Colony) in 4.

Neither is/was a handful. Music can be a bit "passive agressive" about getting her way, but never a handful. And both of them are/were perfectly happy to be couch potatoes- though also willing to work.

JustJump250
Jan. 19, 2006, 05:58 AM
My mare is a Storm Cat granddaughter. Tiny little thing too, barely 15.3 right now. She has no clue she's little though. She is incredibly smart, and very sweet. She loves to be loved on, and is as willing as the day is long.
She thinks for herself, which I like. Not at all the "dumb blonde" type. If we get in a jam xc for instance, a bad spot/funny angle/whatever, I have complete faith in her to save my butt and get us out. But she's willing to do what I ask, as long as its right! If I'm wrong, she lets me know. And she's usually right. She's only just now 5. She really wants to please, knows her job, and really seems to "want" it. Her work ethic is to die for, and she's so talented. I loff her, can you tell?
She does have a hot streak in her, she is the stereotype "redheaded TB mare". But I like them that way, I'm a glutton for punishment I guess. I like her little hot streak, it gives her personality and heart. I would pick up another SC baby in a heartbeat if they had the kind of heart and drive that TJ does.
I know of 3 other SC grandbabies who are similar to mine. One has zero hottness in him, one is just like TJ, and Perfect Pony has a little chestnut mare who sounds the same.

TJ's pedigree:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/tejanos+sands

DMK
Jan. 19, 2006, 06:46 AM
Originally posted by Janet:
And before you say that "the hot blood is diluted by the other horses in the pedigree", I will tell you that his FULL SISTER is the absolute epitome of the reputation. Hot, opinionated, agressive, talented. But a great competition partner once she is "on your side".

For years I handled a stallion (Olden Times X Stage Door Johnny mare), and also handled his dam and all her offspring, as well as her grandchildren.

That mare (Stage Door Johhn X Bold Ruler daughter) produced the evilest, most dominant-aggressive, kill you when you weren't looking fillies I have ever met. And after 6 of them, you sense a trend (and start to fear it). The Nodouble one was the only half decent tempered one of the lot (an most nodoubles I ever met - quite a few - were even tempered individuals). I still shudder to think about the Baldski one. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

But her boys? I have never met a more placid, quiet, agreeable group of horses in my life. The stallion was the best stallion I have ever handled, hands down. And sure, he had a good handler/trainer (not me, but the farm manager that originally worked with him), but so did his sisters. I'd argue the nurture argument was defeated by bloodlines/gender.

And just to further support this argument, guess how "delightful" the fillies this stallion sired were? Uh huh. Evil. Dominant. Rat bastards. Not every last one of them like his half sisters. It was definitely a diluted effect. But it was there, and it was the same personality. Of course I was lucky enough to get a filly when I bred my QH mare to the stallion.

And of course you have never met a more placid personality in all his colts. It was very odd. I don't know that I have ever seen that personality split by sex before, but then I haven't had too many opportunities to see 3 generations over an extended period of time either.

hcwells
Jan. 19, 2006, 07:17 AM
Originally posted by TKR:
Tabasco Cat didn't "kill" Lucas' son (asst trainer), he injured him severely and he wound up hospitalized for some time.

PennyG

Sorry about that. I remember hearing that Tabasco Cat ran over him at top speed, I didn't realize he had survived the incident. It's been a while and my memory "ain't what it used to be... " http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

CAH
Jan. 19, 2006, 01:33 PM
"I still shudder to think about the Baldski one."

Yuch. The Baldski filly I knew was just plain nuts. Not a brain in the head.

Ditto to the poster that said Cure the Blues was a nasty sob. I had the opportunity to tour Milfer Farm stallion barn. At the time standing there was Northernhemisphere (yum yum), Polish Pro, Spectactular Bid and Cure the Blues. Lets just say a few stories were shared about Cure the Blues. Nice racehorse sire, nasty personality.

I don't pay much attention after two back, to be honest.

DMK
Jan. 19, 2006, 04:54 PM
CAH, tragically this one was smart. More like cunning really. The sort that could and would take every opportunity if you so much as dropped your guard for a second.

Although I do distinctly remember another nijinski son that was as dumb as a post. Of course he was one of those rare deviant horses that I truly believed liked pain. Every morning he would try to savage me and every morning he would get a beating. And I swear that was the part he liked the most.

Years later they bred said evil Stage Door Johnny mare to that very same Nijinski son. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif And she of course in true style, delivered a filly. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I was long gone by that time, but still I heard tales. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

sidesaddle
Jan. 19, 2006, 05:10 PM
Do any of you know anything about Apalachee?

i had an Apalachee gelding... and I did try to find out information about him. i was going to jump in the car and drive to kentucky to see him for myself.

sadly, Alalachee died the year before i called the farm. For a big operation, i must say the ladies in the office were very kind and transfered me to the stallion manager who spent decades with the horse.

obviously the guy was elderly and when i asked questions like: was he rambunctions or did he have any funny habits, the guy just said, "Apalachee was the best stallion there ever was. He knew his job..."

If I remember correctly, Apalachee lived to a ripe old age and was put down after a paddock injury.

My gelding was "Apache Al" but was renamed when he did the horse show thing. He had beautiful manners and lived into his 20s.

Of couse now I have a "Darn That Alarm" gelding and they are notoriously difficult. The steeplechase and eventers tend to know all about that line. I've read a lot about them and interviewed owners of the two most famous offspring. Luckily mine is a "lamb" in his stall -- but way different when you tack him up.

He does have the trademark "wild eye" but luvs the clippers, loves getting shod, will fall asleep when touched or groomed or when kitty cat purrs in his ear... happy with at least one person in stall... more people equals even happier.

The topic of personality trends in the lines is fun to explore...

mountain girl
Jan. 25, 2006, 07:48 PM
I've got one like that. A cute kind eyed puppy dog with an I love people playful attitude and lovely considerate ground manners. Then you get in the saddle and this guy is unbridled, do not let your guard down tireless energy. Duh, I guess I should have seen it coming with his track record, he won stakes races, broke a record and won 295k...instead I thought...yay he trys hard and he's talented and he's sound, he's adorable....His sire is Sword Dance. At least he likes to jump. He's also studdish, although he's a gelding.

Then MY Stage Door Johnny mare was a sainted angel all the time.

TKR
Jan. 26, 2006, 07:12 PM
I'd love to see photos of your DTA gelding! I really like that bloodline, bred a mare to a DTA brother (due in about 2 months) and she is the daughter of a stallion whose dam is by Jig Time, so it's some linebreeding, altho not too close.
PennyG

sprite
Jan. 26, 2006, 08:37 PM
I worked with an Apalachee filly one summer- nice horse. Easy to work around, no issues.

It was the Broad Brush yearling that was the royal PITA. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Are the Jig Time horses known for having nice personalities? There was a Jig Time broodmare on the farm that was the sweetest thing, and her foals very very kind as well.

Mozart
Jan. 26, 2006, 09:36 PM
fish, I share your interest in the Speak John, Prince John line. I have 19 year old TB whose grand sire on top is Speak John. I got him off the track as a 4yr old and you will not find a kinder, more gentlemanly animal. Plus he had some jump in his day, he packed me around and showed me a good time eventing and in the jumpers. He is still sound (with management) and packing a long stirrup kid around.
Further, there was another Prince John stallion in this neck of the woods several years ago and his offspring are also good jumpers and stellar ammie horses.
I had posted a query in Sporthorse breeding forum about a TB stallion in Ontario called Yavari, he is by a Prince John stallion and he showjumped for Brazil under an amateur rider. He apparently raced as well before a career in the Grand Prix jumpers.

Mozart
Jan. 26, 2006, 09:42 PM
As for the Nasrullah's, my other OTTB is out of a For the Moment mare. He had a bit of a sullen streak when I started working with him. It might have been a problem if he hadn't been so incredibly lazy. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif I didn't get him off the track until he was 6 and he had a fairly successful career apparently. Which I find incredible since he still tries to convince me he is supposed to be a western pleasure horse. "Can't I just jog an eensy weensy bit please?"

Alibhai's Alibar
Jan. 26, 2006, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by Janet:
Yes, some TB lines are "known for being belligerent", or hot, or whatever. But they are "known for" because people are looking for a reason/excuse for the horse's temperament.

For every "hot" line, you will find plenty of laid back relaxed horses in that line too.

You can't give all the credit to the mares either.

Look at this pedigree
Spy Illusion (http://www.pedigreequery.com/spy+illusion)

Nasrullah and Princequillo twice each, plus another dose of Nearco through Royal Charger. A recipe for a "hot horse".

But he is a complete pussy cat....

That's because there's a little of that precious Hyperion blood in his pedigree http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I have to agree with those who said that a horse's handling can bring out certain personality traits. So many things go into the personality of a horse. Some folks get along with highly reactive horses and some don't. And that's how these reputations got started in the first place, IMO. These infamous stallions were loved by some and hated by some.

And accounts of the personality of a horse's dam are (obviously) far more difficult to find. But famous broodmares like Cinderella, Canterbury Pilgrim, and Vampire have stories of their own!

The accident with Jeff Lukas and Tabasco Cat occurred when Tabasco Cat was 2 years old and got loose- I believe that Lukas tried to stop him and Tabasco Cat collided with him. I've read that Tabasco Cat settled down after he retired. He always sounded more nervous than ornery to me but I never met him.

Also wanted to add that I know a Saint Ballado son who is very sweet and smart.

And while I agree that horses who did well on the track sometimes are more challenging to work with in their OTTB careers, I also know of one horse who ran second to the mighty Cigar and became a lovely pleasure horse.

sidesaddle
Jan. 27, 2006, 10:06 AM
And while I agree that horses who did well on the track sometimes are more challenging to work with in their OTTB careers, I also know of one horse who ran second to the mighty Cigar and became a lovely pleasure horse.

Yes, I agree... I recently wrote a story for one of the equestrian publications on DOUBLE DECKER who is now packing around a specially abled rider at local shows.

The photo of the little girl riding the OTTB ran with a photo of him racing at Churchill Downs...

Of note, the horse and rider found each other via the Exceller Fund in NY.

sm
Jan. 27, 2006, 10:36 AM
I have a gelding off the track at Belmont, Storm cat is his sire. He is the sweetest horse with a heart of gold that always manages to babysit my sorry butt in the saddle.

Don't try to fight with him though, he says "Are we going to fight? Let me show you how it's done."

That's just the breeding that makes a champion on the track. Keep yourself on the same team as the horse and you have a great horse. If you're determined to fight with him you'll probably end up with a ruined horse because he'll never back down, never quit. That never-say-die and I'm-gonna-fight-til-I-drop attitude I attribute to Storm Cat, Northern Dancer, Secretariat, etc.

FLAbreds
Jan. 27, 2006, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by hcwells:
Tabasco Cat is the one who killed Lukas' son, no? He's got some pretty babies out there, but some of them don't seem quite as sharp (intelligence-wise) as the other S/C babies and grand-babies.

As far as Apalachee... I've been around a few Apalachee broodmares, and owned one a few years back. Those that I was around were big handsome horses, not especially refined, but good-looking. My mare was a lovely mover, though she was older and used as a race-bred broodmare only when I got her. She could be tough but would do anything if you asked her in a way she found acceptable LOL.

Artax was out of an Apalachee mare, and he was one cool dude. Very smart boy... his bridle broke in the paddock one day before a race, and he waited calmly with reins around his neck until a replacement could be fetched from the barn http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I have an Artax mare. Talk about in your pocket and nothing, I mean NOTHING fazes her. And she's 4 and nearly 17.2 hands. Just a big love! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

witherbee
Jan. 27, 2006, 01:23 PM
I have a mare by Robyn Dancer. She is sweet to pet and groom, but she has a very unpredictable side and will rear and strike AT YOU about once a month. It's very strange and we're trying to see if it has anything to do with her heat cyles (we've only had her for a couple of months). She loves attention, but is a very nervous horse who does best with tons of turnout and with her herd mates. She plays with her tongue while waiting to be turned out - puts her head sideways and just keeps sticking her tongue in the side of her mouth. She is going to be a broodmare for us, so is not ridden. She has hurt a couple of people with these unexpected attacks (she's so docile normally that it comes out of the blue). From what we can tell, it happens right after she comes out of heat, so may be hormonal or possibly some sort of physical reaction/discomfort after ovulating....

I know a Darn That Alarm mare and she is hell on wheels under tack. One of those mares that feels like you have a lit stick of dynomite under you at all times http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif.

I have a Hunting Hard (Seeking the Gold) yearling colt who is very shy but sweet, a Gulf Storm (Storm Cat) who is quick as a cat and bold as brass, a Fabulous Frolic (Green Dancer) 2 year old who is sweet and smart, a Spectacular Bid mare who was very much a handfull at the track but is now a sweet momma, an Ide mare (FortyNiner) who is nervous but kind, and an Ogygian mare who is dangerous at times (and she's a 14 yr old broodmare).

Those are just the sire side connections. I agree that you have to look at both the dam and sire sides and also the gender and handling, but there are trends among many of the dominant sire lines.

smilton
Jan. 27, 2006, 01:42 PM
I have a filly by Cahill Road (full brother to Unbridled) Monster of a horse but an absolute doll to work with. Very calm and smart girl.

On the other hand I have a filly that is a granddaughter of Deputy Minister and Formal Dinner who is a freaking fruit bat. You look into her eyes and see they back on her head. No one is home. Very flighty and unpredictable.

The only truly dangerous one I have had was a almost coal black beautiful colt by Expelled who was as evil as they come. Would come after you with his ears up like he wanted attention and would then try to stomp you to death. Looked absolutely innocent and approachable until he got within reach of you. No pinned ears, no tail switching, no body language warnings. Would nail you with his ears up. I'm glad he is gone.

sidesaddle
Jan. 27, 2006, 02:58 PM
FLAbreds: Wasn't Artax the horse that got bumped by the drunk spectator at the Preakness a few years back? I remember the news coverage of some drunk person who got on course during the race and somehow managed to not get killed. I thought the horse involved in the bumping incident was Artax.

I remember thinking, what a cool horse to have been able to deal with such a freak occurance...

Am I right?

sidesaddle
Jan. 27, 2006, 03:00 PM
I know a Darn That Alarm mare and she is hell on wheels under tack. One of those mares that feels like you have a lit stick of dynomite under you at all times .

W: I'd luv to know the name of the DTA mare...I've been trying to gather information on the offspring in hopes of finding one of them that does the hunters (none yet http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif)

Sing Mia Song
Jan. 29, 2006, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by sidesaddle:
FLAbreds: Wasn't Artax the horse that got bumped by the drunk spectator at the Preakness a few years back? I remember the news coverage of some drunk person who got on course during the race and somehow managed to not get killed. I thought the horse involved in the bumping incident was Artax.

Yep, you're right. There's a reason why I never go to Preakness, and that's it. Too many drunken idiots.

The guy did have to do a number of days of community service after trying to punch Artax in the stretch. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif What a freakin' fool.

Wasn't that the year Red Bullet won?

Oh, and on Cahill Road babies, I have worked with a number of them after they came off the track. They were all nice horses to work with, decent movers, quite nice jumpers, all kind of heavier and not too tall (~15.2). Anyone else have the same experience?

Alagirl
Jan. 29, 2006, 07:04 PM
Yep, you're right. There's a reason why I never go to Preakness, and that's it. Too many drunken idiots


Like the infield crowd in Kentucky isn't http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

excowgirlie
Jan. 29, 2006, 08:12 PM
I am new to TB's, and still researching my 15 year old's pedigree, but it is interesting to read the posts about some of these horses and their impeccable ground manners,(like mine) but once you get in the saddle you cant let your guard down..and I also find with my guy he will cooperate until he thinks its time to be finished, then he is like a little powder keg ready to burst..when I get off him, he is like a little puppy dog..so this is typical TB behavior, eh? (he is such a cutie, btw)

smilton
Jan. 30, 2006, 07:24 AM
My Cahill Road filly is 16-2 moderately boned and still growing just turned 4. She looks like a warmblood mare. Very long strided but not as quick as the Deputy Minister grand-daughter. I will start some small fences later this spring.

Beam Me Up
Jan. 30, 2006, 09:22 AM
I have a horse with a couple of these "mean" lines. His sire is Heff, who is Alydar x Extra Alarm (Extra Alarm is dam of Darn that Alarm).

As my mom put it, he is a horse "with a sense of himself." Very cocky, dominant, aggressive even (with horses, people, dogs, whatever). A bit studdish. Too smart. But very very bold and a great jumper. Wonderful on xc. A neat guy, but I can see a lot of places where these traits could be an issue, too.

DMK
Jan. 30, 2006, 10:57 AM
It's funny about all the Darn That Alarm comments - He was at the farm I worked at back when he was still a young'un (3 ish) and he was a perfect gentleman. Now mind you, I had pretty limited interaction with him, and just because they are good to swim, doesn't make him perfect mannered by any means.

But years later in his last year of racing, when he was the King of Calder, I worked at Calder, and the trainer I worked for was at the head of the path so I generally caught the King on his way to work every morning. Not that you could miss him. Big. White. Horse.

But he carried himself like a king among peons. Always regally striding to the track amongst the riff raff that cavorted around like fools. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

On a slightly related note, there was a PBS show on last night called "Underdogs" and it was about these two working dogs (Bearded Collie and a Bloodhound) that had already been through a few homes, and were considered incorrigible. A sheepdog trainer took the bearded collie (he was a rogue around sheep) and a tracking trainer took the bloodhound who had been through SIX! homes in her life. She was a only a year old.

Anyway, they both noted that these hyperactive dogs with behavioral issues are mostly just dogs who need a job and got in the wrong hands and in places where they couldn't use their energy constructively.

Both of them came out pretty darn good working dogs. The blood hound is a police tracking dog in MA and the bearded collie is working sheep regularly, and the speed both learned was frightning. Both trainers commented how the dogs were smarter than they were. The collie trainer was cute. At one point she walked away saying "I am the boss I am the boss I am the Boss"... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Interesting, because every time you run across an intense horse - or even one that seems batshit crazy - you wonder how much of it is caused by nurture that played to the worst aspects of their nature?

WhiteCamry
Jan. 30, 2006, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by Sing Mia Song:
Yep, you're right. There's a reason why I never go to Preakness, and that's it. Too many drunken idiots.

The guy did have to do a number of days of community service after trying to punch Artax in the stretch. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif What a freakin' fool.

Wasn't that the year Red Bullet won?


Artax was a '95 colt, which would put him in the '98 Preakness, which Real Quite won. Red Bullet won it in 2000.

witherbee
Jan. 30, 2006, 01:49 PM
The Darn that Alarm mare that I am talking about is Sunny Alarm. Nice race mare, but always has her ears pinned, is very dominant and will kick you in the stall. Never settles on the cross ties either. My SIL owns her and loves her to death, but she is a very hot mare and is full of it under tack. I'd never trust her, but then some of mine she wouldn't trust either http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif....

Sing Mia Song
Jan. 30, 2006, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by WhiteCamry:
Artax was a '95 colt, which would put him in the '98 Preakness, which Real Quite won. Red Bullet won it in 2000.

Ah, but he wasn't running in the Preakness. It was on the undercard, in a sprint stakes.

TKR
Jan. 31, 2006, 02:36 PM
I love the DTA's and that entire bloodline. Where is Heff standing now? I know Jiggs Alarm wound up in NZ or Australia. One of my stallions is out of a Jig Time mare (sire of DTA) and I bred a daughter of his to Strong Performance (brother to DTA) and she is due to 2 months. I'd love to have a DTA mare! Does anyone know if Pistols and Roses is standing anywhere or what happened to him -- where he is? I had heard he became infertile. My stallion of that bloodline is a pussycat and so are his babies. You can see him on my website www.krugerrandrunfarm.com (http://www.krugerrandrunfarm.com)
PennyG

Chanter
Jan. 31, 2006, 05:42 PM
I know a very lovely looking DTA mare that will kill any foal that is not her own. Her present caretakers literally groaned when their clients showed up with her. Needless to say, once she hatches them out this mare & her foal have a paddock all their own.

Alagirl
Feb. 4, 2006, 10:02 AM
Oh SH*T http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif I had fallen head over heals in love with a Darn That Alarm gelding on CANTER some time back...he was sooooo pretty!

I guess is may after all have been a good thing I couldn't get him! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

sidesaddle
Feb. 5, 2006, 09:51 AM
Alagirl:

I did get my DTA gelding via Canter PA. Thankfully he is not mean, but is a lamb in the stall and loves to be handled... but put the saddle on him and he wakes up.

I agree with a lot of what others have said about the DTA line and personality traits of the offspring.

Mine is bold and brave to the jumps, can appear to be a goofball in terms his form, experiments with lofting very high and not folding - but can fold and will over higher stuff, likes to work, favorite pastime is wallowing in the mud, would stay out 24/7 if allowed, nervous disposition and can throw a tantrum when he makes a mistake which normally is the case when presented a new training exercise, he seems to crave the companionship of other animals and definitely people, plays gently with a small cat and seems to interact in friendly manner with pony and foal over the fenceline...16.2 fleabitten gray, white mane and tail, has the one wild eye...

Last year I interviewed Michelle Hunter who was the first woman owner/rider to win the Gold Cup. Her horse was Joe at Six, another DTA. And everyone knows about the late great Darn Tip Alarm...

If anyone has information on Michelle and Joe, please email me. I lost track of them, but know they didn't do well recently due in part ot Joe's meltdowns in the paddock.

Alagirl
Feb. 5, 2006, 01:30 PM
Thanks Sidesaddle...though gettting a reallly bad report on DTAs would have been more to my liking, I damn near cried when he was taken off the site! But that was almost 4 years ago now, no way I would've been able to afford a horse then, but he was soooooo pretty, dapple gray, though allready 10/11 years old! about 16h, I don't wan to go much higher - I am afrait of hights http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif - he was on West Virginia though, the current "Mid-Atlantic" chapter...I still have his picture somewhere (sorry Fairweather, I had to steal it! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif) reminds me, I have to transfer it from the zip disc, or I will loose it soon, darned upgrades!

sidesaddle
Feb. 5, 2006, 02:21 PM
Alagirl:

If you can find the photo, I'd luv to see it.

Of note, via the COTH BB I connected with a gal who evented her DTA Beacon Hill. She sent me the DVD and I've watched it a million times. Her horse is black and very handsome http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

witherbee
Feb. 6, 2006, 10:24 AM
For you DTA fans, here is the Darn That Alarm mare that I mentioned with her 2004 foal - he's a handsome devil! http://image52.webshots.com/52/0/31/62/2527031620059026382sLtcKp_ph.jpg

If I had one of her under tack, her ears would be pinned http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

sidesaddle
Feb. 6, 2006, 01:06 PM
W

The link won't work for me http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Twilight
Feb. 8, 2006, 06:28 AM
Sidesaddle - my friend just bought (about 2 weeks ago) a Darn That Alarm gelding. He's a 5 year old and just lovely - his name is Four Alarmer. She is an eventer but wants to do some hunter schooling shows to start out. She would love to hear from you! Feel free to email me for her email address!
mfiester0917@yahoo.com.

witherbee
Feb. 8, 2006, 08:45 AM
Ooops - try this link...
http://community.webshots.com/photo/269577805/2527031620059026382sLtcKp

Kim
Feb. 8, 2006, 01:54 PM
Does anyone know what War Admiral's temperament was like? Just curious.

TKR
Feb. 8, 2006, 05:30 PM
War Admiral was very opinionated and tough, VERY difficult about the starting gate, typical Man 'O War type temperment.
PennyG

slow down
Feb. 8, 2006, 06:01 PM
My first horse was a stallion out of a full sister to War Admiral. The sire was Norseman. I got him as an eight year old and started him as a riding horse. He was never studdish and I saw no reason to geld him. He was never bred but did fox hunt and do some shows. I couldn't have asked for a sweeter horse. I would ride him bareback with a halter and rope on the trails. Even had an 11 year old girl showing him until we found out it was illegal for a junior to show a stallion. Had him until he died at 22. He never did change his personality from Mr. Sweet.

sidesaddle
Feb. 8, 2006, 08:05 PM
W: Thanks for posting the very cute photo! ! !

T: I'll send your friend an email...thanks for letting me know about "Four Alarmer"...

UPDATE: we've already traded many emails... i saw the photo of her DTA -- so much potential. Thanks for putting us in touch. I feel like I met a new friend http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WhiteCamry
Feb. 9, 2006, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by slow down:
My first horse was a stallion out of a full sister to War Admiral. The sire was Norseman. I got him as an eight year old and started him as a riding horse. He was never studdish and I saw no reason to geld him. He was never bred but did fox hunt and do some shows. I couldn't have asked for a sweeter horse. I would ride him bareback with a halter and rope on the trails. Even had an 11 year old girl showing him until we found out it was illegal for a junior to show a stallion. Had him until he died at 22. He never did change his personality from Mr. Sweet.

Was he Einar (http://www.pedigreequery.com/index.php?query_type=horse&search_bar=horse&h=EINAR&g=5&p=0&f=1&l=) ?

slow down
Feb. 9, 2006, 03:43 PM
Yes, he was Einar. I would go out to the tracks and watch him run about once a week. He usually ran last which it why my father gave him to me when he was eight. He was doing well in some very long races held either at Hawthorn or Sportsman. They just didn't get them long enough for him to wear all the other horses out.

Alagirl
Feb. 10, 2006, 06:12 AM
Originally posted by slow down:
Yes, he was Einar. I would go out to the tracks and watch him run about once a week. He usually ran last which it why my father gave him to me when he was eight. He was doing well in some very long races held either at Hawthorn or Sportsman. They just didn't get them long enough for him to wear all the other horses out.

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif We had one like that, too, didn't wake up till after a mile and a half.

Too bad there are really not many races that go that long - on the flat. *Das Silberne Band von der Ruhr* beat me to death with my own shoes, I am not sure what track it is run on, Duesseldorf or Dortmund, it is (or was, I've been gone a long time) 4000m on the flat!, that is almost three miles!

FLIPPED HER HALO
Feb. 11, 2006, 09:06 PM
Originally posted by Marli:
Bold Ruler? Well, I've had 3 geldings (Bold Ruler 2/3 generation) and all must've been oddballs! Mine all had a strong will and were definately beligerant in training.

My gelding Bold Thou Art is by Hail Bold King (who was by Bold Ruler). He is completely sweet and loving, but a pistol under saddle! He looks for excuses to spook and launch straight up in the air - but struts his stuff so nicely in the show ring and flys over jumps. Then there are those days you swear there is NO brain in there. He's 17 this year (had him since he was 4 and off the track) and he STILL acts like a nutty 2 year old!

FLIPPED HER HALO
Feb. 11, 2006, 09:19 PM
My friend has he meanest OTTB I've ever met. He won over a million racing and was trained by Bob Baffert and was by Flying Paster. To this day he's just flat out mean!

fish
Feb. 12, 2006, 07:37 AM
On Bold Ruler: although his sire was known to be difficult, I've always read that Bold Ruler himself was sweet as can be, and tended to throw good-tempered horses. My best show horse ever was, in a way, line-bred to Bold Ruler, her dam being a Boldwood (by BR)mare out of a mare by Loser Weeper, a full brother to Bold Ruler's dam, Miss Disco. The fantastic equitation horse, Ambitious Ruler, was by Bold Ambition, by Bold Ruler. I was working at a top H/J barn which had Ambitious Ruler and another $100+ hunter named Bold Comment when I was told that Bold Ruler was behind a lot of good show horses.

Another example would be Mytens, who until his recent death, stood at the Holsteiner Verband in Germany. Mytens was by Spectacular Bid, by Bold Bidder, by Bold Ruler.

I guess it's almost to be expected that when a horse gets as many good mares as BR (and his sons) did, a good many of the numerous offspring will find their way to the shows and, in the right hands, prove successful there. It seems, however, that I don't see or hear of many Alydars doing well at the shows, and he got a lot of fine mares, too-- and was reputed to throw difficult temperaments.

I did meet a gorgeous Talinum gelding (by Alydar) in the hunt field years ago. The horse took a liking to my mare (by Savings, by Buckfinder)-- and we had a whale of a gallop that was not entirely optional for the Talinum's rider http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

CrzyCorgi
Feb. 12, 2006, 12:37 PM
I have heard that the Slew babies can be pretty bad.

Also I owned a Gato Del Sol baby who could be quite an SOB. An absolute SWEETIE on the ground, wouldn't hurt a fly, but once you were on, OH BOY!! He was fine as long as things were on his terms, but once he decided that was it. That was it!!! Boy he was quite the ride sometimes LOL. Does anyone know anything about Gato Del Sol and his line?

~Darci~

WindyIsle
Feb. 12, 2006, 02:00 PM
I'm currently working on retraining a Slew baby for resale - smartest most sensible thoroughbred I have ever had the pleasure to meet. His dam is by Private Account (General Will - Seattle Slew x Engaging by Private Account)and he is just a lovely guy.

He's learns like *that* and loves to work. But you have to challenge him - anything less than 3 feet for a jump and he won't even try.

If he was a mare I'd put him instantly into our broodmare band to cross with my Connemara stallion because their babies would be fabulous ^^;;

He's for sale at the moment and I know I'm going to miss him.

TKR
Feb. 12, 2006, 02:38 PM
Gato Del Sol is by Cougar II, imported from South America (I think) and GDS won the Derby, but I don't think he accomplished alot at stud or maybe it was because Cougar II wasn't as "hot" as some of the other stallion lines.
PennyG

DMK
Feb. 12, 2006, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by FLIPPED HER HALO:
My friend has he meanest OTTB I've ever met. He won over a million racing and was trained by Bob Baffert and was by Flying Paster. To this day he's just flat out mean!

If you mean Letthebighossroll, note his dam sire is Jig Time. Then scroll back to discussions about Darn That Alarm. Then look up the sire of DTA. I know you won't be surprised to see it is Jig Time. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

fish
Feb. 12, 2006, 03:24 PM
I don't think it helped that Gato del Sol was a longshot for the Derby and didn't do much else either.

WhiteCamry
Feb. 13, 2006, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by Alagirl:
Too bad there are really not many races that go that long - on the flat. *Das Silberne Band von der Ruhr* beat me to death with my own shoes, I am not sure what track it is run on, Duesseldorf or Dortmund, it is (or was, I've been gone a long time) 4000m on the flat!, that is almost three miles!

More like 2.5 miles, if you'll forgive the pedantic nonsense.

WhiteCamry
Feb. 13, 2006, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by TKR:
... Cougar II, imported from South America (I think) ...

From Chile, to be exact. He won the '73 SAH and later that year went from last to third in the Marlboro Cup, behind the Meadow Stable boys.

summerhorse
Feb. 13, 2006, 11:22 AM
Last I saw Pistols and roses was at Emerald Pastures Farm in FL. I looked but their website is down right now.

I think a lot of "bad" horses are made that way by poor handling. They may be tough, hot, whatever but under the right handling they can be OK, under the wrong (read domineering) handling they can be downright dangerous. My own mare is/was like that. When I got her she was "spoiled" in more ways than one. But after a lot of work via the Monty and John Lyons methods she is very good. But she is still a hot TB and things are just going to upset her more, you can't treat her like an old trail horse even if she acts that way most of the time. You have to be alert to her moods.

I heard Foolish Pleasure was a bear but just having to have a stud chain isn't bad, most stallions are like that. It is when they have to have muzzles, handlers with poles, wear the same halter allt heir life with a strap hanging down because you can't take it off... That's dangerous! But ANY stallion can be dangerous, even normally behaved ones can snap (the infamous Aly T...).

Anyway once he got to Wyoming and got to be a real horse (out in a pasture with his harem) I haven't heard anything bad about him and when he died they tried hard to save him so he couldn't ahve been too bad.

In Tissar was so dangerous they couldn't handle him at all or let him have full access to a mare (he'd kill them too) so they rigged up a chute system so he could be bred (and the mare protected). Now WHY anyone would WANT to breed to that is a mystery, I guess he must have produced a lot of runners. I never heard that he passed that behavior on though.

Monty Roberts also wrote of a Blushing Groom horse (can't remember son or grandson) that was crazy and mean as a snake but he turned him around. It was just the people around him that didn't understand him or care to try to (that is a big problem, some people want to put EVERY horse in the same mold and treat them all the same). Actually he wrote of quite a few of them in Horses In My life or something like that. Very good book!

Gate Dancer wasn't mean but they said (talked to someone who either worked there or had regular business there) he was just a loon. And loony horses of course are dangerous because you never know what they will do. But hey, it wasn't anything personal... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

His sire Sovereign Dancer was similar but more on the mean side I heard.

Sportin' Life killed someone but nobody saw what happened so it could have been an honest spook, wheel and buck and a bad landing. (he was sire of Bet Twice).

At Airdrie they said that Silver hawk, Siphon, Forest Camp would all take your fingers off if you left them in range too long but they were perfect gentleman when they went in and got them out and we got to pet them. That to me is typical stallion behavior, they are mouthy, they bite, they don't KNOW that is a finger...

summerly
Feb. 13, 2006, 02:28 PM
Jeff Lukas was not killed by Tobasco Cat. He had dumped his rider during training one morning at Santa Anita and was haulin a** back to the barn, Jeff jumped out in front of him trying to catch him...But I do agree most Storm Cat's are PITA's. The fillies seem to be much worse. As for Jeff I believe he went on to work for Padua after his accident...well I guess maybe until before Satish and D Wayne had their big falling out anyhoo..

ottb dressage
Feb. 20, 2006, 11:18 AM
i love the bold ruler line. they make an excellent sport horse and race horse. they have great wb like conformation, are physically tough, honest, hard workers and great personalities.

my ottb is fifth generation male line descendant of bold ruler. when i first got him i didn't know a thing about bloodlines. when my vet came to look at him, he asked where i imported my wb from. when i told my vet he was an ottb, my vet very quickly replied that he must be out of bold ruler. i contacted equineline.com to get bobbie's track record and breeding history and there was bold ruler right at the top. amazing how stamped bobbie is by blood that far back. my vet said that bold ruler on the male side tended to throw big, hot chestnuts. and that is true, bobbie is big and can be hot. but he can be and is a sucker for a soft touch and a little romance so generally we can work through things after we have a discussion. as long as he is not bullied or pushed around, he'll give things an honest effort. have to keep an eye on the grain though, it just makes him bigger and hotter. he can also be studdish at times, particularly at the shows with all the atmosphere, but i find that giving him time to clear his head and have some space away from the action helps a lot. he's very bold in personality and will walk up to anyone expecting attention. he is very well aware of his good looks and presence and his intelligence is equal to any person. in my opinion i often think he knows he's smarter than the rest of us, but that's ok just keep the love coming.

he's also ribot 4X4 and bobbie also raced turf as well as track. i've heard that ribot's behavior was awful as a stud, but great during his racing career. bobbie is happiest when he has his little jobs to do. he does not vacation well, but is happy to have a couple days off here and there as long as he is getting the attention he knows he deserves.

my instructor has a bold ruler and the horse is very bold in his work, but meek as a lamb off the job. he's inbred 3xs, and like my bobbie has the great bold ruler build. absolute perfection to look at, sleek, round sculpture. full bodied, yet still refined and elegant.

Alagirl
Feb. 21, 2006, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by WhiteCamry:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Alagirl:
Too bad there are really not many races that go that long - on the flat. *Das Silberne Band von der Ruhr* beat me to death with my own shoes, I am not sure what track it is run on, Duesseldorf or Dortmund, it is (or was, I've been gone a long time) 4000m on the flat!, that is almost three miles!

More like 2.5 miles, if you'll forgive the pedantic nonsense. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks, I am not very good at converting metric to imperial w/o a calculator (plus miles and KM throw me for a loop, inches to cm, I can do! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

tbluv
Feb. 21, 2006, 05:05 PM
My mare sire is by Storm Bird out of an Alydar mare. Her dam is by Norther Prospect (a Mr. P son).

Let me tell you...this mare is the most honest, hardworking horse I have ever met. She's not very in your pocket but she is sweet. She is very protective of "her" 9 year old little girl (my daughter)...she won't let the other horses crowd the gate for fear that her little girl would get hurt =D

WhiteCamry
Feb. 22, 2006, 07:14 AM
Originally posted by Alagirl:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WhiteCamry:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Alagirl:
Too bad there are really not many races that go that long - on the flat. *Das Silberne Band von der Ruhr* beat me to death with my own shoes, I am not sure what track it is run on, Duesseldorf or Dortmund, it is (or was, I've been gone a long time) 4000m on the flat!, that is almost three miles!

More like 2.5 miles, if you'll forgive the pedantic nonsense. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks, I am not very good at converting metric to imperial w/o a calculator (plus miles and KM throw me for a loop, inches to cm, I can do! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's easy. Just reckon 1 mile = 8 furlongs = about 1600 m. That makes a furlong about 200 m.

Alagirl
Feb. 22, 2006, 07:21 AM
If I have my wits together...
But it's still a brain workout...the habbits of a quarter century are hard to break! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Eventerjazz6
Aug. 20, 2011, 12:09 AM
Tabasco Cat is the one who killed Lukas' son, no? He's got some pretty babies out there, but some of them don't seem quite as sharp (intelligence-wise) as the other S/C babies and grand-babies.

As far as Apalachee... I've been around a few Apalachee broodmares, and owned one a few years back. Those that I was around were big handsome horses, not especially refined, but good-looking. My mare was a lovely mover, though she was older and used as a race-bred broodmare only when I got her. She could be tough but would do anything if you asked her in a way she found acceptable LOL.

Artax was out of an Apalachee mare, and he was one cool dude. Very smart boy... his bridle broke in the paddock one day before a race, and he waited calmly with reins around his neck until a replacement could be fetched from the barn
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Artax was AWESOME, definitely one of my favorites!

LauraKY
Aug. 20, 2011, 12:08 PM
Two Bold Ruler horses here and I love their personalities. Strong willed, yes, but it keeps life interesting. Great work ethic, stunning movers. Very respectful (for the most part) once they know who's boss.

summerhorse
Aug. 20, 2011, 11:07 PM
One thing that I've heard and seen from breeders/sellers, etc. is that the higher (better) bred the horse is the more difficult they can be. (CAN be) They are bred to fight and to be the best and that carries over into their non racing attitude too. I do think that PEOPLE tend to make it worse though either by letting them get away with bad manners or by being so rough they create a defensive bad tempered horse.

Lisa Preston
Aug. 21, 2011, 12:36 AM
I'd not heard that specifically of BR sons--sure is fun to get your OTTBs history though, isn't it? W even pulled track photos of the races.

Mah Navu
Aug. 21, 2011, 07:37 AM
I'd say it's "legend".

We have an OTTB who has some pretty inflammatory lines, according to legend.....

Nasrullah, Nashua, Ribot, Bold Ruler, Nearco, Northern Dancer, Turn To, and even further back, he is related to the Tetrarch through Mumtaz Mahal....and War Admiral......

>>And his grandsire was the evil, vicious Danzig.

Here is a pic of his sire Parnter's Hero, son of Danzig..

http://www.finalturngallery.com/g2/main.php/v/ALLIS-ART/album237/partners+hero/partnershero.jpg.html


LOL.....

His INFLAMMATORY pedigree can be viewed here:

http://www.equineline.com/Free-5X-Pedigree.cfm?page_state=ORDER_AND_CONFIRM&reference_number=7413513


He is, however, the most calm, sane, in your pocket TB in history..... he cuddles, he nuzzles, he kisses, he even listens to me read stories to my kids....

See video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1_-DWUaiFo

Not a hint of Danzig or Ribot in him. With humans, anyhow. He is, however, vicious and aggressive with other horses in general, and has had to be turned out with cows at one point in his life....he does fairly well with our Belgian mare, but only barely. We have considered turning him out in his own pasture as he does bully her and gets aggressive once in a while. Luckily, we have the ability to turn him out alone in a pasture beside hers so they can see each other, if need be. They have been turned out together for a year now with no major issues, just minor ones.....

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Aug. 21, 2011, 10:36 AM
I have a Bold Ruler great grandson, but apparently he is just like his dam, Zen It Happened (by Zen). Strong willed, smart as the dickens, but if you "explain" things to him very reasonable. Level headed. He has trained me very well.

FatDinah
Aug. 21, 2011, 05:12 PM
Fusaichi Pegasus was very rambunctious on the track and so apparently have been some of his sons, i.e. Andromeda's Hero. I think it was Bob Baffert who said of him "he can rear higher than his old man."
But a Fu Peg son(gelded) came up for sale at Finger Lakes and the volunteers reported his groom and trainer described him as a sweetheart.

You have to wonder, what would John Henry's babies been like if he had been left a stud? His mean streak was legendary even in to his last years.

It was interesting to listen to theSaratoga TV feature on how "bad" It's Tricky is to train, which seemed to be that she does not like to go to the track without a pony and she dumped her jockey after the Coaching Club Oaks when he squeezed a sponge on her head. I don't see these as bad behaviors for a 3 yr old ... would you take a 3 yr old alone for a trail ride by a road and thru busy barns and expect her to be quiet?

Lord Helpus
Aug. 21, 2011, 05:13 PM
According to current genetic theory, each horse only contributes 1/2 of his genetic makeup in each ejaculate. The other 1/2 is made up of the same genes, but they are in different places or somehow genetically altered (mutated), so that they will not pass on a trait the sire/dam has.

Each generation you trace back, you have double the ancestors, therefore there is 1/2 of that generation's genetic material being passed down to our hypothetical foal, while the other half of "uninheritable gene " pool becomes a larger, more motley proportion of possible traits handed down.

By the 4th generation each horse only contributes 3.25% of his genetic makeup to the foal in question. In the 5th generation, the % is so small as to be meaningless.

Thus, the total contribution of a 5th generation sire is: 1/2 of 1/2 of 1/2 of 1/2 of 1/2 of 1/2 = 1.67% (I think :) )

Since the total % of "uninheritable genes from ANY of the ancestors" remains at 50% throughout each generation, you can see why that "pool of genes" is more likely to be passed on.

That is why I personally think it is silly to try to compare offspring from a certain line. Yes, some stallions are prepotent and stamp their get to an incredible degree, but the average horse's influence of any given foal falls off quite quickly.

LaurieB
Aug. 21, 2011, 06:54 PM
Fusaichi Pegasus was very rambunctious on the track and so apparently have been some of his sons, i.e. Bellamy Road. I think it was Bob Baffert who said of Bellamy "he can rear higher than his old man."


Bellamy Road is by Concerto.

FatDinah
Aug. 21, 2011, 07:08 PM
Sorry, got him mixed up with Andromeda's Hero, it was that year Zito had 5 in the Derby.

Jaegermonster
Aug. 21, 2011, 07:56 PM
Fusaichi Pegasus was very rambunctious on the track and so apparently have been some of his sons, i.e. Bellamy Road. I think it was Bob Baffert who said of Bellamy "he can rear higher than his old man."
But a Fu Peg son(gelded) came up for sale at Finger Lakes and the volunteers reported his groom and trainer described him as a sweetheart.



Fu Peg is not in Bellamy Road's pedigree. Bellamy Road is by Concerto out of a Deputed Testamony mare. BR's breeders are good friends of mine.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/bellamy+road

tradewind
Aug. 22, 2011, 09:52 PM
I think in general you ride the horse not the pedigree. That is not to say that certain lines don't have some general traits that can be seen.

Flying Fox
Aug. 22, 2011, 10:05 PM
The Matchem-line flourished in America on the foundation of another bad-tempered,
brutish animal, Fair Play (1905).
One of the most versatile, brave and generous horses of the last century - when racing - Tristan
(1878), winner of placed in 47 of 53 career starts, a “hat-trick” winner of Ascot’s Hardwicke Stakes,
Grand Prix de Deauville and Newmarket’s Champion Stakes (astonishingly twice sharing the victory in
this later race), was a fierce demonic scoundrel whose temper became his end. In a fit of rage, and
without anyone on whom to vent his spleen, he crashed his head against a brick wall, killing himself!
Fortunately, he left the legacy Canterbury Pilgrim (1893). She inherited much of her sires racing ability
- and most of his temperament. Winner of Epsom’s Oaks Stakes, she was a shrew when she-so chose:
Dam of Chaucer (1900), who did not have the best of tempers, this “fire” appears as little more than
ashes in her other son, Swynford (1907).
Derby winners who suffered temperamental failings, included George Frederick (1871), a “foul-natured beast”, a disposition he inherited from his sire, the “extremely savage brute”, Marsyas (1851)... Ladas (1891) benignly described contemporaneously as “... delicate and high-strung, was, in fact, an ill-tempered beast, although and routinely, absolutely genuine when racing.... Yet another ferocious winner was Diamond Jubilee (1897). He had a nature more befitting the bull-ring than the racecourse, and before his Epsom victory, walked almost the length of the course on his hind-legs. At
stud, though, he became more tractable, reserving the spitefuil side of his nature for occasions.
Another savage was Lowland Chief (1878) Over the years, a tendency towards spitefulness deteriorated into a meanness of nature which by late age was inbridledly vicious and he was put down in 1898 to save possible misdeed; almost the same may be written of Alcantara 11(1908), whose mean
streak deteriorated until he became a danger, and he was destroyed in 1930.
Flying Fox (1896), a conseqeunce of the ‘hot” Galopin blood through his dam, Vampire (1889), a daughter of Galopin. Vampire possessed a wicked temper, and killed her first foal, savaging a groom who try to stop her mayhem. Flying Fox inherited nervous irritability, and the superabounding ability of his forebears, proving outstanding on the racecourse before establishing a sire line familiar to all, through the names Ajax (1901), Teddy (1913), Sir Gallahad HI (1930, Asterus (1923), Ortello (1926),
Bull Dog (1927) and Citation (1945).
Santoi (1897), famous for his toughness, and the strain of hardiness he bequeathed, was another bad-tempered individual, a trait he inherited from his maternal grandsire, the “fiendish” Broomielaw.
Corcyra (1911), a high-class son of Polymelus, was always, to be kind, wilful, and at stud became “very queer.” Never a horse with the sweetest of dispositions, those who tended him were always at pains also to humour him. Potentially a high-class stallion, he met with an accident when only 9 years
old, and was put down.
More close in time are Nearco (1957), Nasrullah (1940) and Ribot (1952).
Nearco was always referred to as of high-mettle. In fact, he was strong-willed to the point of
mulishness, a quirk of temperament he passed to many of offspring, including Nasrullah. A high-class racehorse, widely regarded as the best horse in England to ten furlongs, he failed to win a Classic, and
often as not, it appeared that lack of resolution rather than lack of ability that brought about his defeats. This undesirable psyche he bequeathed. Grey Sovereign was a victim, a strong-willed and irresolute character, handed down to hint by his brilliant forebears. On his better days he was a handful for the very best - but on others, he would sulk, and refuse to race, standing stock still when the tapes
released for racing.
Arguably, Nasrullah’s most talented son in Europe was Zucchero (1948). Endowed with Immense
ability, he rarely lived up to his promise, and the pefformance, more often than not, was wanting.
“Tiineform” delivered terse assessment: “.,. brilliant, but exasperatingly erratic.” He strode to majestic
victory in Epsom’s Coronation Cup, trouncing the capable Wilwyn, first winner of Laurel’s
Washington International, and Worden II, also successful in this event, but sulked his way to the
winning post in the 1953 Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe, in which Worden took third place. Never, even
on his best days, sweet tempered, he transmitted his ability, siring many good winners in Europe
before his export to Japan, and his relatively early death.
Other unreliable sons of Nasrullah, were the American-breds, Red God (1954) and Bald Eagle (1955). High hopes were held that Red God would prove good enough and go one better than his sire, and
win an English Classic. His victory in Goodwood’s Richmond Stakes confirmed his ability and
potential, but a wayward temperament negated his obvious worth, and his form was always suspect as
his capricious disposition got the better of him. Bald Eagle, likewise, after showing promising form,
allowed his dark side sway. Returned to America, his mind-set was eventually brought under control,
and he was twice a winner of Laurel’s Washington Tnternational Stakes.
Another of Nearco’s sons to display irascibility was Amerigo (1955). After a contemptuous eight S
lengths victory in Ascot’s Coventry Stakes, the tetchy side of his nature took rein. Ill-tempered, he became almost impossible to control Sold to America, his fiery pugnacity was a hair trigger At one
Meeting, he put on a rodeo-like exhibition,” turning the saddlmg enclosure into a Wild West display, and dining on chunks of attendants “But when the more “amiable” side of his nature emerged, he showed prize ability It was an ability he transmitted, but, sadly, he died all too young, aged just ten
years
The great champion Ribot, was an amenable enough a character during his years of racing - but his disposition deteriorated at stud His attendant succinctly described his hazard to the unwary “Ribot”
he said, “would climb a tree”
If there is an inference that ability and suspect temperament go hand-in-hand, then there is the opposite side of the coin. Mieuxce (1933), Princequillo (1940), Petition (1944), Nijinsky (1967),
Dancing Brave (1983) were all notably “decent” and placid individuals, as are the vast majority of the breed who are not of any extreme but fall within the “norm” of behaviour

BarbB
Aug. 22, 2011, 10:23 PM
On Nasrullah - he was known for producing horses that were tough, mentally and physically. But not kind and cuddly. I had a horse who was 3 times Nasrullah, trainers who knew him in his heyday (before me) said that he was immortal - as in too mean to die.

Calamber
Aug. 23, 2011, 08:28 AM
I've heard from someone witha lot of firsthand knowledge that Cure the Blues was a nasty SOB and was close to killer status. He's got Nearco 4 back on both sides, Nasrullah 3 back on dams side and Bold Ruler 2 back on dams side. Not sure how much it means, but I think that enough people have dealt with these lines over the years, and of course there are exceptions but I think there is some credance to it. Would it stop me from buying one as a hunter or a pleasure horse? No, I'd need to see the horse in person, handle it and talk to the trainer and groom to make my decision. Many times the actual sire and dam have more to do with it than even 2 or three generations back. I also agree that I take the dam more into consideration, but I have had a couple of the stallions that we stand really stamp their get temperament and personality quirk-wise http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif. My own colt is by a stallion that consistantly throws babies that paw the ground when they want something (even though the stallion does not stand at the farm that these babies are raised at). Too funny how some traits are passed on...

On the other hand, a direct son of his, Guard or Gard Bad, was an absolute doll. I had an appendix filly by him but knew him and his woman owner who could handle him on a string as a breeding stallion.

Linny
Aug. 23, 2011, 11:56 AM
Tabasco Cat badly injured Jeff Lukas, he didn't kill him. Also, TC was quite hot but he didn't attack Jeff. He got loose and was clearly badly spooked and ran over poor Jeff.

Remember, when discussing any sire line that (especially once you are talking about a grandsire) you are discussing ONE individual horse within a pedigree. Because stallions have so many offspring, t's easier to discuss their propensities but it's often the case that since the foal is at the mare's side for months that SHE is the influence for whether the foal is a dominant or submissive type.

Just like with show horses, there can be huge differences between how young race horses are trained and raised. That plays into their demeanor as does when (if) they were gelded.

Remember too that when a track person says a horse is tough, they might mean the type of mental toughness that makes a good competitive horse. (That kind of "tough" might translate into a very nice competitive jumper or eventer or even hunter. They are the ones that want to work and do well.) They might also mean a stubborn moron that simply has his notions about everything. The latter type can be a pain no matter what you want to do with them.;)

Pristine
Aug. 23, 2011, 09:14 PM
My Robyn Dancer horse is sweet,smart,never rears and gets along great with everybody. He even tolerated a rooster that would stick his head in his feed bucket and start pecking away at his food. He would look upset and pin his ears but he never harmed the rooster who has been gone for awhile now. He has always been a gentleman around mares,visiting people,dogs,cats and cows. He has 5 crosses to Nearco and 10 to Man O War. My filly has 22 crosses to Man O'War is from the Blushing Groom sire line and has Northern Dancer twice from Nijinsky and The Minstrel. She tends to dominate him but not in a nasty way. Her mom was a dominant type mare with other horses but not people. I do not let my horses get away with bad behavior but I do not ever beat them. Her mom liked to paw frequently and she did also when her mom was alive but she never does it now. She does like to grab things in her mouth and swing them back and forth. She used to uproot weeds to play with but now she usually swings an empty bucket. Her mom never did that. Every horse is an individual and how they are treated and trained can bring out their best or worst qualities. Seabiscuit when Howard and Smith first got him was nasty because of the treatment he had received and they brought him back to being the sweet happy horse he had been before people beat on him. I recommend reading the book.