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cyberbay
Aug. 19, 2004, 06:03 AM
My 10-year old horse is diagnosed with navicular. He's shown signs, which we've been now managing actively for more than a year, for 2+ years. The management was bar shoes with degree pads, and isox. It worked great.

Now, the symptoms have intensified starting this spring--we've managed to get him sound again, but the vet has intimated that this will be a touch and go condition, and that in the end, the navicular will win.

Help. Any suggestions for care, treatment, what to avoid, what to do? Is my horse just winding down to forced retirement?

As noted above, we've had him in bar shoes for a year+ and on isox for a year+. Recently, he was injected in the n.bursa and in the coffin joint, with the effects lasting 1 week. He is back on Adequan (shot a week, so far, with attempts at spacing the injections starting in a week or 2). I ride him on superior footing. He is turned out in a flat sand paddock.

Recently, with this bout of lameness, we approached the treatment by first removing the degree pads. He was sound for a week. In response, we went the other way, back to a 2-degree pad. After a week of walking in his new angles, we have done light trotting, and now the work is a tad more intense, with some bits of cantering. So far, so good.

But every day is all you get. No sense of confidence that tomorrow will be a good day.

So, any suggestions for care or future treatment? I've heard of a drug called Tigmet???, for foot ailments, and it's in use by some vets here, but also phew! expensive...and eventual neurectomy...

Thanks for everything!

cyberbay
Aug. 19, 2004, 06:03 AM
My 10-year old horse is diagnosed with navicular. He's shown signs, which we've been now managing actively for more than a year, for 2+ years. The management was bar shoes with degree pads, and isox. It worked great.

Now, the symptoms have intensified starting this spring--we've managed to get him sound again, but the vet has intimated that this will be a touch and go condition, and that in the end, the navicular will win.

Help. Any suggestions for care, treatment, what to avoid, what to do? Is my horse just winding down to forced retirement?

As noted above, we've had him in bar shoes for a year+ and on isox for a year+. Recently, he was injected in the n.bursa and in the coffin joint, with the effects lasting 1 week. He is back on Adequan (shot a week, so far, with attempts at spacing the injections starting in a week or 2). I ride him on superior footing. He is turned out in a flat sand paddock.

Recently, with this bout of lameness, we approached the treatment by first removing the degree pads. He was sound for a week. In response, we went the other way, back to a 2-degree pad. After a week of walking in his new angles, we have done light trotting, and now the work is a tad more intense, with some bits of cantering. So far, so good.

But every day is all you get. No sense of confidence that tomorrow will be a good day.

So, any suggestions for care or future treatment? I've heard of a drug called Tigmet???, for foot ailments, and it's in use by some vets here, but also phew! expensive...and eventual neurectomy...

Thanks for everything!

LMH
Aug. 19, 2004, 06:11 AM
I have a great article on Navicular written by Dr Bowker on Navicular pain---it is rather large to email so be sure you box can handle it.

Just let me know if you are interested.

slb
Aug. 19, 2004, 07:37 AM
Here is a link to a paper that contains info like LMH is refering to.
http://www.horse-canada.com/html/articles/HMfootphys03.99.htm

blaster
Aug. 19, 2004, 08:16 AM
I had a horse 10+ years ago whom was "nerved" (cuts the nerve endings in the foot). He never had special shoes. Hindsight, there are probably better things (more modern) methods to deal with Navicular, but this worked for him. Many people claim a LOT of negative drawbacks, but I never had those. He competed Novice until his retirement at 21.

Posting Trot
Aug. 19, 2004, 08:38 AM
You could also look at the bulletin board on the professional farriers' website: www.horseshoes.com (http://www.horseshoes.com) . There are a set of BBs dedicated to farriers answering questions from horseowners, and you'll find some very good discussions of navicular and various treatments there.

IndysMom
Aug. 19, 2004, 10:48 AM
First off, this is long, I've copied it from the website. It's the FIRST and ONLY article I've seen that indicates that navicular MAY NOT be the kiss of death. With a recently diagnosed horse who is an absolute cadillac, I'm going to hang on to the hope written in here and persevere.

Navicular Syndrome: Shoeing Methods
© Tom Stovall, CJF

Navicular Syndrome is any lameness in the rear third of a front foot which will block out with a posterior digital nerve block, usually both fronts are involved, although this is sometimes not evident until one is blocked.

All methods of shoeing for NS are palliative in nature. A farrier can't cure or correct anything, he can only relieve the symptoms to some degree. One hears the term "corrective shoeing" used in the treatment of NS horses however, "corrective" is a misnomer: no method of shoeing will "correct" the condition.

Shoeing for NS must meet several criteria if it is to be successful: it must decrease pressure on the navicular bone from the deep digital flexor tendon, it must enhance breakover, and it must protect the rear third of the foot from environmental pressure.

The classic method of shoeing the NS horse is called, "Stand 'em up and turn 'em over." This means that the farrier will do whatever he can to decrease the length of the phalangeal lever and to increase phalangeal angulation.

Increased angulation can be accomplished by several methods: cutting the toe, mechanically raising the heels, and setting the shoe under. Since the farrier is unable to grow hoof, raising the heels is sometimes accomplished through the use of wedge pad(s) and various types of non-traction calks; e.g., roll calks, wedge calks, etc.

Why is increased phalangeal angulation a Good Thing? Because this relieves the pressure exerted upon the navicular bone by the deep flexor tendon which uses the navicular bone as a fulcrum before it inserts into P3 (coffin bone, third phalanx). The navicular bone comprises the posterior portion of the coffin (distal interphalangeal, DIJ) joint and is subjected to compression by the DDFT every time the foot is turned over. Increased angulation relieves pressure from the DDFT, but how is turnover enhanced?

Turnover is enhanced, in the main, by shortening the phalangeal lever.

The lever is shortened, primarily, by cutting off as much toe as possible.

Next, by several means: through choice of configuration of shoe materials; i.e., the use of half-rounds, aluminum (which becomes a de-facto half-round with wear) and hot-rasping the ground surface of the toe of a conventional shoe. Finally, and most important from the standpoint of enhanced turnover, the shoe must be set under so that an imaginary line from the front of the fetlock, bisecting the toe, to the ground, is as short as possible.
By setting the shoe under, turnover is enhanced, and pressure on the DDFT is reduced as a direct result. The obvious limiting factor to setting the shoe under is the white line; however, the shoe can be set under to the posterior edge of the white line if necessary. The toe should be "chopped off" (cut off perpendicular to the ground) rather than "feathered" to the coronary band in an effort to make the foot look "pretty". Excessive rasping, aka, "feathering the toe", destroys the structural integrity of the hoof.

The easiest method of protecting the rear third of the foot is the use of a bar shoe. Underslung, low-heeled horses respond best to conventional (track-style) egg bars, probably because, being set under, the increased support relieves pressure exerted by the DDFT. Upright horses seem to respond better to the more circular style of egg bars or straight bars.

All styles may be configured with a "frog cradle" which protects the frog from environmental pressure; however, if moisture or weak heels is not a problem, it's sometimes more efficient to use a wedge pad or bar wedge pad to accomplish the same result.

Many racetrackers have heard the old wives' tale: "A horse can't run in bar shoes". The truth of the matter is that any horse that needs bar shoes, can't run with out them.

The aforementioned methods of farriery may be used individually or in combination. A horse with minor symptoms might be shod with half-rounds slightly set under; a horse with serious problems, with aluminum egg bars set under as much as possible and three degree bar wedge pads.

Navicular problems range in severity from a slight bruise to the navicular bursa to a fractured navicular bone. They are all treated, mechanically, in much the same manner with the exception being that DIJ problems are sometimes palliated by means of a pressure bar which applies general (as opposed to apexal) pressure on the frog.

Navicular Syndrome is no longer the Kiss of Death it once was. Due to farrier/veterinary cooperation resulting in a greatly increased body of knowledge relative to the diagnosis and treatment of this syndrome, horses which would have been euthanized 20 years ago are now dying of old age after leading full, active lives.

Tom Stovall is an American Farriers Association Certified Journeyman Farrier since 1983, a Member of the Texas Professional Farriers Association, and a Member of the Artists-Blacksmiths Association of North America. Thanks to him for his permission to post this article.

Bea
Aug. 19, 2004, 10:53 AM
cyberbay, I read this article not long ago. Have no idea if it's possible to look into it for your horse, unfortunately it appears the best chance for these injections to help is early on in treatment. And, probably as you found out from the info posted above, I would imagine it would depend on exactly what aspect of navicular syndrome your horse is experiencing as to whether the below would be relevant. But thought I'd pass it on, might be difficult to find a vet who's familiar with its use. If I understand this correctly, the drug is not approved for use with horses in the US, so if used it would be off-label usage.

Treating Navicular Disease From Inside the Bone
by: Susan Piscopo, DVM, PhD
July 2004 Article # 1527

Article Tools

Healthy bone undergoes constant metabolic change to prevent bone loss or abnormal remodeling (cell turnover) that can occur with loading. Horses with navicular disease can have abnormal remodeling and formation of osteolytic lesions (areas of broken-down bone) within the navicular bone. This might be due to an imbalance in bone metabolism, with increased bone resorption. Dominique Thibaud, DVM, of Ceva Santé Animale (CEVA), in Libourne, France, with colleagues in France, Italy, and Germany, set out to evaluate a drug to target abnormal bone metabolism. The drug, tiludronate, inhibits excessive bone resorption, allowing bone metabolism to become balanced once again. The study aimed to assess tiludronate's effectiveness against navicular disease. (The drug is not approved in the United States for use in horses, so any clinical use would be considered off-label).

Fifty horses with moderate to severe navicular disease were studied. Radiographs and videotaped lameness examinations were collected prior to treatment. Horses were randomly assigned to receive either 1 mg/kg tiludronate intravenously (IV) daily for 10 days; 0.5 mg/kg IV daily for five days, followed by five days of placebo; or 10 days of IV placebo. Lameness exams were performed (and videotaped) one, two, and six months after treatment. Radiographs were repeated six months after treatment, and independent examiners reviewed all radiographs and lameness exam tapes. Horses which didn't respond to tiludronate or the placebo by two months, based on clinical examination and owner evaluation, were removed from the study as treatment failures and treated as needed with tiludronate.

Horses responded best (based on improvement of lameness and ability to return to work) to the regimen of 1 mg/kg tiludronate IV daily for 10 days. More recent cases of navicular disease (less than six months duration, 33 horses, no treatment failures) responded better than chronic cases (17 horses, 11 treatment failures). Of recent-case horses, 67% showed a positive response to treatment, and 75% returned to normal activity by six months.

Interestingly, horses had no change in flexion/extension test response after treatment. However, Thibaud notes, "Flexion/ extension tests assess local pain of the coffin joint, which can be due to both soft tissue and bone lesions. Tiludronate acts specifically on osteolytic bone lesions." So, some pain can remain in the foot despite improvement in the navicular bone. Overall, the results support Thibaud's opinion, "Tiludronate helps in restoring a normal balance between resorption and formation of bone" in horses with navicular disease. However, drug therapy should be combined with corrective shoeing for best results.

Thibaud is currently studying bone pharmacology in horses and other species. The CEVA web site (www.ceva.com (http://www.ceva.com)) has prepared a link to a separate web site devoted to tiludronate, or Tildren, for horses at www.tildren.com (http://www.tildren.com).
Denoix, J.M.; Thibaud, D.; Riccio, B. Equine Veterinary Journal, 35 (4), 407-413, 2003.

Bea
Aug. 19, 2004, 10:57 AM
IndysMom, you and I were posting at the same time. If your guy is recently diagnosed I wonder if the article I posted might apply. Let us know if you decide to ask your vet about this French drug study, and what they say.

Pocket Pony
Aug. 19, 2004, 05:41 PM
Having been reading a lot about barefooting these days, Jaime Jackson says (what else?!) that pulling the shoes and doing a "natural" trim will help the "navicular" horse (in quotes because he doesn't seem to believe that is a separate disease from laminitis, I think). So there you have it, FWIW. I have no experience with that and all the remedies I've heard of are the traditional bar shoes, pads, wedges, medicine, etc... I can't speak frome experience either way.

Pocket Pony
Aug. 19, 2004, 05:44 PM
Forgot to say...check out www.naturalhorsetrim.com (http://www.naturalhorsetrim.com) for more information on a "holistic" approach. Although, this is a pro-Strasser site, which I also have no experience with.

Lookout
Aug. 19, 2004, 08:09 PM
There is no pressure on the navicular bone from the DDFT. In fact the more weight the horse applies to the foot the further the DDFT is pushed away from the bone. Therefore there is no reason to expect these recommendations to work, since the problem is misunderstood - backwards.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IndysMom:
Navicular Syndrome: Shoeing Methods
© Tom Stovall, CJF

Shoeing for NS must meet several criteria if it is to be successful: it must decrease pressure on the navicular bone from the deep digital flexor tendon, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

slb
Aug. 19, 2004, 11:24 PM
I'll second that...what Stovall is saying contracidcts itself. He acknowledges that "naricular syndrome" is heel pain, which implies that the horse would not load its heels. Then goes on to indiacte that the way to address the problem is to lessen the forces on the DDFT. If the heel is not weighted, then there cannot be these forces on the DDFT that are eluded to.

From my experience, successful treatment of navicular...and I have seen horses with years of lameness restored to soundness...is to reduce concussion (either through shoing or barefoot), remove external excess leverage forces such as long toes and underrun heels, and trim for a low heel that allows maximum ground contact of frog and optimal function that will help restore health to the digital cushion. Often navicular horses have damaged digital cushions (Bowker).

The way that this article indicates to address the issue is as Stovall notes...not a cure, but a fix. However, if addressed by correctly aligning and balancing the feet, it can be eliminated in the majority of cases. In general navicular is a "created" problem, not a natural one. Poor hoof shape is the primary contributor.

Addressing the problem as noted by Stovall is setting the horse up for a continuation of the problem. If the heels are encouraged to grow high or are otherwise enhanced through wedges, there is reduction of circulation to the toe (Pollitt). If the frog is "protected" rather than allowed to make ground contact and be fully functional, then the problem will be enhanced. While all these things result in a temprory relief of pain, they then introduce a whole other set of problems that must be fixed.

swampgum
Aug. 20, 2004, 02:23 AM
It is apparent that corrective trimming will cure so called navicular syndrome. There is a good article about it on the site www.thehorseshoof.com (http://www.thehorseshoof.com)

IndysMom
Aug. 20, 2004, 06:07 AM
Bea,
Thanks. I'll check with him on that, but I suspect it won't apply since he has pristine navicular bones-no changes at all. Just like 50% of horses who have this diagnosis. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

cyberbay
Aug. 20, 2004, 06:38 AM
LMH-
Would love the article. I am in a bit of a hurry this AM, and don't have a moment to discern if any of the following posts, from other wonderful posters like you who have taken the time to help me help this horse,include that same article!
More later...sorry for the haste.

Tom Stovall, CJF
Aug. 21, 2004, 12:25 PM
In response to one of my essays, someone wrote:

"There is no pressure on the navicular bone from the DDFT. In fact the more weight the horse applies to the foot the further the DDFT is pushed away from the bone. Therefore there is no reason to expect these recommendations to work, since the problem is misunderstood - backwards..."

This statement will come as a great surprise to the folks who've labored mightly to teach me a bit of equid anatomy over the years. Every one of them - as well as the authors of standard classroom textbooks such as Stashak's, "Adams Lameness in Horses" and Butler's, "Principles of Horseshoeing" - seemed to think that the deep digital flexor tendon originates on the flexor muscles and inserts on the semiluner crest of the third phalanx and adjacent surface of the collateral cartlidge of the third phalanx. The DDFT uses the navicular bone (aka, distal sesamoid) and proximal sesmoids as fulcurms.

The flexor muscles transfer their energy to motion through the action of flexor tendons on bone. The DDFT is the largest of these tendons and uses several fulcrums on the bony column to increase the muscles' ability to transfer energy through leverage. Archimedes at work!

Since the navicular bone is used as a fulcrum by the DDFT, it follows that contraction of the DDF flexor muscles must place the navicular bone in some degree of compression. Furthermore, physical law dictates that the more acute (lower) the phalangeal angle, the greater the amount of compression. Put another way, if one whacks of the heels off a horse with navicular syndrome as advocated by the current crop of "natural" folks, one unarguably places the navicular bone in greater compression.

Since several forms of navicular syndrome are both insidious and incurable, palliation by some means is often the only viable mechanical option on diagnosis of NS if the horse is to remain in use.

Ghazzu
Aug. 21, 2004, 03:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall, CJF:
. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Senor Tomas!
Bienvenido!

Txfarrier11
Aug. 21, 2004, 08:34 PM
The Old Fat Man has spoken............

slb
Aug. 21, 2004, 09:31 PM
Your assessment of anatomy is correctly presented; however, your assessment of mechanics is no longer considered valid...much research has been conducted to dispute it. While I agree on some of your points, "lowering heels" has little to do with "natural" anything...it has to do with correctly balancing and aligning the feet as per Butler,Adams and others. Treating pathologies has to do with restoring balance and alignment to allow for optimal form and function. Hindering blood flow or purposely misaligning joints does not promote healing in any form. Regardless of if the horse can be "healed", comfort comes from goals of optimal alignment and balance. If the heels are too high or permanently wedged, they cannot contribute to correct balance/alignment within the hoof and complementary structures.

You guys have about 20 years of reading to catch up on...and don't forget to close the cave door when you leave. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Tom Stovall, CJF
Aug. 22, 2004, 12:43 AM
Someone wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> "Your assessment of anatomy is correctly presented; however, your assessment of mechanics is no longer considered valid...much research has been conducted to dispute it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please feel free to cite any scientific study published for peer review that confirms any hypothesis that is in opposition to the mechanics of equid motion as I described. Muscle energy is transfered to motion by the action of tendons on bone and no "research" exists that contradicts that statement.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> "While I agree on some of your points, "lowering heels" has little to do with "natural" anything...it has to do with correctly balancing and aligning the feet as per Butler,Adams and others. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For your edification, "balance" is the loaded position of the phalanges relative to the entire bony column and is quite different from "alignment," which is the loaded position of the phalanges relative to each another.

Except as a means of remodeling the hoof capsule, lowering the heels, regardless of the horse's individual phalangeal alignment, has never been advocated by Butler, Stashak, Rooney, O'Grady, Chapman, or any other recognized authority. On the other hand, lowering the heels without regard to the individual's natural alignment has been advocated by several proponents (Strasser, et al) of the so-called "natural" or "barefoot" movement, a group that uses the feral horse foot as a model.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Treating pathologies has to do with restoring balance and alignment to allow for optimal form and function. Hindering blood flow or purposely misaligning joints does not promote healing in any form. Regardless of if the horse can be "healed", comfort comes from goals of optimal alignment and balance. If the heels are too high or permanently wedged, they cannot contribute to correct balance/alignment within the hoof and complementary structures. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your inexperience is evident. Relative to farriery for incurable pathologies (e.g., fractures of the navicular bone, articular ringbone, pedal ostitis, etc.), "comfort" for the horse comes from the palliation of symptoms by mechanical means, not by the blind adherence to the untested protocols advocated by trendy, self-anointed gurus and folks in academia who confuse their observations with double blinds.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You guys have about 20 years of reading to catch up on...and don't forget to close the cave door when you leave. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Like many folks long on theory and short on experience, your obvious inexperience renders you unable to separate the wheat from the chaff when it comes farriery. I read the textbooks and journals, not the vanity publications and advertisements: Perhaps you would do well to do the same.

To paraphrase Guy Clark, I'm a big fan of stuff that works.

Liberty
Aug. 22, 2004, 01:39 AM
Welcome to the COTH boards, Mr. Stovall. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I have a question or two for you and the other hoof folks here concerning my gelding's chronic lameness problems (possibly) due to a navicular bone cyst in his left front foot. He's had problems off and on for years, and it wasn't until extensive diagnostics (bone scanning) last summer that the cyst was detected.

Many remedies to try to ease his pain have been tried - bar shoes w/degree pads, NB shoes with frog pads, no shoes, shockwave treatments, etc. He has been out of work for a couple of years now (he's a 17-yr-old QH), and I realize that there might not be much else I can do for him.

But before I accept what might be the inevitable conclusion that he will never be serviceably sound again, I keep on trying to find something that will get him most comfortable.

Here are his latest radiographs, taken July 27th:

Bone Cyst, image taken from the top:
http://users.erols.com/wec5/photos/LF_Cyst_TopShot.jpg

Bone Cyst, image taken from the bottom:
http://users.erols.com/wec5/photos/LF_Cyst_BottomShot.jpg

Left Front, image taken from the side:
http://users.erols.com/wec5/photos/LF_SideShot.jpg

Right Front (for comparison), image taken from the side:
http://users.erols.com/wec5/photos/RF_SideShot.jpg

The faint image of what looks like a shoe are "Horse Slips" rubber shoes he was wearing at the time (www.horse-slips.com (http://www.horse-slips.com)). He is now currently barefoot, with closed-cell foam pads taped to his fronts (changed periodically as they wear out). The foam pads enable full ground contact over his sole, which seems to give him the most relief.

He does not block sound, and it's thought to be because of "aberrant nerve(s)", so the med center advised against any type of surgery.

Last week, he received a trim where his toes were backed up about a 1/4" (from the top), as per my vet's instruction.

Opinions please - is this horse "all washed up" permanently, or is there something else I should try?

Despite the "slight hitch in his git-along", he's otherwise healthy, happy, and enjoys a good run in the pasture now and then. He's turned out 24/7 as well.

Thanks for any input. Despite what the ultimate diagnosis may be, he's got a home for life with me. I just want him to be as comfy as possible for as long as possible.

swampgum
Aug. 22, 2004, 04:33 AM
Keeping heels low IS necessary in keeping proper hoof form. Horses running in their natural environment maintain very low heel. It is only through incompetent hoof care of horses being kept in confined soft environments that horses have heel height which leads to navicular, contraction and circulation impediment due to a non functioning frog

LMH
Aug. 22, 2004, 04:42 AM
First KC on the hoofwall thread, Tom here...so....at this rate when does Strasser arrive to give her 2c??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Tom Stovall, CJF
Aug. 22, 2004, 07:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I have a question or two for you and the other hoof folks here concerning my gelding's chronic lameness problems (possibly) due to a navicular bone cyst in his left front foot. He's had problems off and on for years, and it wasn't until extensive diagnostics (bone scanning) last summer that the cyst was detected.

Many remedies to try to ease his pain have been tried - bar shoes w/degree pads, NB shoes with frog pads, no shoes, shockwave treatments, etc. He has been out of work for a couple of years now (he's a 17-yr-old QH), and I realize that there might not be much else I can do for him.
[...]
He is now currently barefoot, with closed-cell foam pads taped to his fronts (changed periodically as they wear out). The foam pads enable full ground contact over his sole, which seems to give him the most relief.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If the closed cell foam helps, you might ask your veterinarian about taping a hard polyurethane pad to the foot and using one of the soft acrylics as a filler between foot and pad. This will give roughly the same effect in terms of support for the bony column, but the materials are stronger and will last longer.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
He does not block sound, and it's thought to be because of "aberrant nerve(s)", so the med center advised against any type of surgery.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

An accessory nerve supply to the foot has been described quite often in various texts.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Last week, he received a trim where his toes were backed up about a 1/4" (from the top), as per my vet's instruction.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In order top facilitate turnover and reduce compression of the navicular bone by the deep digital flexor tendon, trimming the foot as short as practicable with as high an aligned phalangeal angle as is possible within normal parameters is more-or-less standard in most equine clinics. Turnover can be further enhanced by radiusing the leading edge of the hoof.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Opinions please - is this horse "all washed up" permanently, or is there something else I should try?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your question would be better addressed to the attending veterinarians. A public forum can offer general information, but a valid prognosis specific to an individual can only come from a veterinarian who has examined the individual.

Tom Stovall, CJF
Aug. 22, 2004, 08:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Originally posted by swampgum:
Keeping heels low IS necessary in keeping proper hoof form. Horses running in their natural environment maintain very low heel. It is only through incompetent hoof care of horses being kept in confined soft environments that horses have heel height which leads to navicular, contraction and circulation impediment due to a non functioning frog. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So much misinformation, so little time.

Horses at liberty in arid, abrasive environments usually have low heels; horses at liberty in moist, soft environments relatively high heels; horses at liberty in semi-arid, grassy environments (i.e., the Great Plains of the central USA) do not present with heels of common heights.

For horses in use, in terms of efficiency, lowering the heels of a horse with normal angulation in order to increase frog pressure invariably has a deleterious effect. Doing so places the navicular bone in increased compression by the DDFT, decreases the blood supply to the navicular area through impingement, reduces the ability of the suspensory apparatus to deal with concussion, and places a greater concussive burden on the bony column.

Put another way, while one may be able to whack off the heels of a pasture ornament without ill effect, horses that work for a living will suffer from such trendy nonsense.

The etiology of navicular syndrome is described in various veterinary and farrier texts mainly as concussion and various predisposing factors - especially the extremely upright, big horse/ small foot presentation common to Quarter-types.
It is not described as "lack of frog pressure."

Please spare me any apples-to-oranges observations made on feral horse foot structure, the real world is comprised of domestic horses in use. Theory works great on pasture potatos, but Archimedes still calls the shots when horses work for a living.

slb
Aug. 22, 2004, 11:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall, CJF:
Please feel free to cite any scientific study published for peer review that confirms any hypothesis that is in opposition to the mechanics of equid motion as I described. Muscle energy is transfered to motion by the action of tendons on bone and no "research" exists that contradicts that statement. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I told you that I agreed with some of your points...this was one of them. It is your observations of shoeing to correct problems and the mechnaics involved with them that I and many others disagree with.

For your edification, "balance" is the loaded position of the phalanges relative to the entire bony column and is quite different from "alignment," which is the loaded position of the phalanges relative to each another.[/quote]
I fully understand this...that is why I seperate them with an "and". Both are required to achieve optimal form, function and comfort.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Except as a means of remodeling the hoof capsule, lowering the heels, regardless of the horse's individual phalangeal alignment, has never been advocated by Butler, Stashak, Rooney, O'Grady, Chapman, or any other recognized authority. On the other hand, lowering the heels without regard to the individual's natural alignment has been advocated by several proponents (Strasser, et al) of the so-called "natural" or "barefoot" movement, a group that uses the feral horse foot as a model. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I believe that you have mistaken me for a student of Strasser... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

I never implied that heels should be lowered without regard to "natural" alignment. If I recall, I stressed correct alignment at all times....that is "correct" to the horse, not to the trimmer's whim. I simplystated that you cannot address pathologies by NOT addressing correct alignment...that is by allowing heels to grow high or wedging them for long periods. I am guessing that you dismiss Pollitt's efforts to examine what happens when this is done.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Your inexperience is evident. Relative to farriery for incurable pathologies (e.g., fractures of the navicular bone, articular ringbone, pedal ostitis, etc.), "comfort" for the horse comes from the palliation of symptoms by mechanical means, not by the blind adherence to the untested protocols advocated by trendy, self-anointed gurus and folks in academia who confuse their observations with double blinds. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Who was discussing these types of pathologies? the discussion was focused on navicular and the symptoms that are called such. I never advocated not shoeing a horse nor did I even dismiss the use of therapeutic devices. I simply stated that their use had limitations and compromises. Your resistance to this concept exemplifies your lack of growth and exploration beyond the classroom.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Like many folks long on theory and short on experience, your obvious inexperience renders you unable to separate the wheat from the chaff when it comes farriery. I read the textbooks and journals, not the vanity publications and advertisements: Perhaps you would do well to do the same. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
While I admit to inclucing the "vanity publications" in my reading...as I look to expand my mind and explore all venues open to me...my base of knowledge comes from the same books that yours does, I simply kept reading and didn't turn off the light after I read the standards.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>To paraphrase Guy Clark, I'm a big fan of stuff that works. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Are you? I guess that we would agree here...unless our definitions of what "works" is different from my expectations. Can you say that you have successfully restored at least 95+ percent of your charges to soundness without continued reliance of therapeutic devices? To me a decade of this type of work speaks for itself.

Liberty
Aug. 23, 2004, 02:55 AM
Thanks for you response, Mr. Stovall.

As for changing the foam padding over to a harder pad with acrylic filler, I do have concerns about "sealing his foot" up too much. As such, I have no problem with continuing with the foam padding, changed regularly, so I can keep a better eye on his sole and keep it aired out, so to speak. So far, this has worked better than anything else.

As for the opinions I requested, I truly was only looking for opinions and would not proceed with anything without consulting a professional first.

Unfortunately, my attending vet, along with the other vets I have consulted, along with the many experienced and well-respected conventional shoeing farriers I have consulted over the years, do not feel much can be done for my horse.

On the other hand, my current farrier, a conventional farrier for 25 years who switched her practice over a few years ago to exclusively barefoot trimming techniques, is the only one who has stuck by me in my quest to find something to help my horse.

I have consulted Steve O'Grady, as well as Dr. Kent Allen, both well-respected in their fields of expertise in equine lameness, and neither gave me any hope or suitable suggestions. In fact, Dr. Kent's "diagnosis" was to "bute him up" if I wanted to continue to ride my horse. No, I did not take his advice as I considered it completely unacceptable.

That said, the naysayers won't stop me from continuing to seek out more input, from whatever sources I can find. My goal, first and foremost, is to provide the most comfort possible for my horse, whether or not he can be ridden. His health and happiness is my top priority, and as long as he remains happy and willing to gallop around the pasture on his own on occasion, I will continue to believe there's hope for more improvement for him.

Thanks again,
Liberty

Tom Stovall, CJF
Aug. 23, 2004, 07:46 AM
[Deletia in places, attributes in jeopardy, apologies in advance]

<span class="ev_code_GREY">
Like many folks long on theory and short on experience, your obvious inexperience renders you unable to separate the wheat from the chaff when it comes farriery. I read the textbooks and journals, not the vanity publications and advertisements: Perhaps you would do well to do the same.</span>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
While I admit to inclucing the "vanity publications" in my reading...as I look to expand my mind and explore all venues open to me...my base of knowledge comes from the same books that yours does, I simply kept reading and didn't turn off the light after I read the standards.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Therein lies the difference between you and I. What I know of farriery is based on both education and experience in the real world; your lack of the latter is painfully evident.

<span class="ev_code_GREY">To paraphrase Guy Clark, I'm a big fan of stuff that works.</span>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Are you?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes'm, stuff that works is what separates folks like me from folks like you.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I guess that we would agree here...unless our definitions of what "works" is different from my expectations.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not being clairvoyant, I have no idea how you define the term. I define "stuff that works" as the application of whatever farriery is required to enable a horse to do whatever it does without pain.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Can you say that you have successfully restored at least 95+ percent of your charges to soundness without continued reliance of therapeutic devices?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That sound your hear in the background is the unrestrained laughter of a multitude of farriers, veterinarians, and assorted horsemen who find your statement to be utter mendacity. Assuming horses in use presented unsound, no one on the planet with any sizable custom has returned 95% of those horses to being sound for service without total or partial reliance on various mechanical therapeutic and palliative therapies.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
To me a decade of this type of work speaks for itself.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your claim is certainly eloquent, but it says more about your woeful lack of experience and willingness to make pie-in-the-sky claims than your ability to heal the halt and lame.
I don't make any such claims, but I have helped to return one or two horses to service by mechanical means. For a bit of insight into my personal philosophy, including my misspent youth, please see
&lt;http://www.katyforge.com/better'n_drugs.htm&gt;

slb
Aug. 23, 2004, 09:21 AM
I have not overlooked your website in my studies. As I said, I include all the information that I can find on the subject. Thanks for the chat, but I really don't think it fitting to continue this conversation on this board.

Lookout
Aug. 23, 2004, 09:31 AM
One need only observe the reality to know this is not true. It can be done by cross-sectioning a foot and applying downward pressure and it will be visible that none of the below actually happens. If this is too complicated it can be observed on Pollitt's video.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall, CJF:
In response to one of my essays, someone wrote:

"There is no pressure on the navicular bone from the DDFT. In fact the more weight the horse applies to the foot the further the DDFT is pushed away from the bone. Therefore there is no reason to expect these recommendations to work, since the problem is misunderstood - backwards..."
deep digital flexor tendon originates on the flexor muscles and inserts on the semiluner crest of the third phalanx and adjacent surface of the collateral cartlidge of the third phalanx. The DDFT uses the navicular bone (aka, distal sesamoid) and proximal sesmoids as fulcurms.

The flexor muscles transfer their energy to motion through the action of flexor tendons on bone. The DDFT is the largest of these tendons and uses several fulcrums on the bony column to increase the muscles' ability to transfer energy through leverage. Archimedes at work!

Since the navicular bone is used as a fulcrum by the DDFT, it follows that contraction of the DDF flexor muscles must place the navicular bone in some degree of compression. Furthermore, physical law dictates that the more acute (lower) the phalangeal angle, the greater the amount of compression. Put another way, if one whacks of the heels off a horse with navicular syndrome as advocated by the current crop of "natural" folks, one unarguably places the navicular bone in greater compression.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tom Stovall, CJF
Aug. 23, 2004, 12:28 PM
For those who are under the impression that the deep digital flexor tendon does not use the navicular bone as a fulcrum or anyone who thinks whacking off the heels of a horse with normal angulation does not place the navicular bone in greater compression, I offer a simple little quiz:

After the heel of a club foot (i.e., angle of the dorsal surface of loaded P3 greater than 60º) is cut down as far as possible without causing a leak, does the heel always touch the ground on loading? If not, why not?

What happens to the heel of a clubfooted horse when the subcarpal (inferior check) ligament is cut?

Do tendons stretch?

Lookout
Aug. 23, 2004, 03:36 PM
That's a real shame. The failure of farriers to help many horses is not funny, except to themselves.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall, CJF:

[QUOTE]Can you say that you have successfully restored at least 95+ percent of your charges to soundness without continued reliance of therapeutic devices?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That sound your hear in the background is the unrestrained laughter of a multitude of farriers, veterinarians, and assorted horsemen who find your statement to be utter mendacity. Assuming horses in use presented unsound, no one on the planet with any sizable custom has returned 95% of those horses to being sound for service without total or partial reliance on various mechanical therapeutic and palliative therapies.
[QUOTE]

Lookout
Aug. 23, 2004, 03:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LMH:
First KC on the hoofwall thread, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Whenabouts was that?

Tom Stovall, CJF
Aug. 23, 2004, 04:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Originally posted by Tom Stovall, CJF:
For those who are under the impression that the deep digital flexor tendon does not use the navicular bone as a fulcrum or anyone who thinks whacking off the heels of a horse with normal angulation does not place the navicular bone in greater compression, I offer a simple little quiz:

After the heel of a club foot (i.e., angle of the dorsal surface of loaded P3 greater than 60º) is cut down as far as possible without causing a leak, does the heel always touch the ground on loading? If not, why not?
[\QUOTE]

Assuming a level, hard surface, the heel will often not touch the ground in this scenario because the DDFT is inelastic. Since the DDFT uses the sesamoids as fulcrums, these structures are in obvious compression upon loading and the horse will often exhibit a pain response. This can usually be immediately alleviated by elevating the heel and is sometimes used as an illustration of the role of DDFT compression in navicular syndrome.

[QUOTE]
What happens to the heel of a clubfooted horse when the subcarpal (inferior check) ligament is cut?
[\QUOTE]

Usually, not always, the heel lowers on loading because the subcarpal ligament's function is to
prevent overflexion of the flexor muscles. The ligament is part of the horse's "check" apparatus.

[QUOTE]
Do tendons stretch?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tendons don't stretch. Ever. They are most often described in the literature as being "inelastic."

For folks with an interest in the technical aspects of DDFT compression of the navicular bone and its role in navicular syndrome, I suggest the following:

Doug Butler, PhD, FWCF, "Principles of Horseshoeing" (any edition)

David Ramey, DVM, "Navicular Syndrome Explained"

Lookout
Aug. 23, 2004, 04:33 PM
um, so you're answering your own questions?

Tom Stovall, CJF
Aug. 23, 2004, 04:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lookout:
That's a real shame. The failure of farriers to help many horses is not funny, except to themselves.

<span class="ev_code_RED">Re: The ludicrous claim of returning 95% of lame presentations to service without utilization of mechanical therapeutic/palliative devices.</span>

That sound your hear in the background is the unrestrained laughter of a multitude of farriers, veterinarians, and assorted horsemen who find your statement to be utter mendacity. Assuming horses in use presented unsound, no one on the planet with any sizable custom has returned 95% of those horses to being sound for service without total or partial reliance on various mechanical therapeutic and palliative therapies. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"A real shame?" Dare I point out that the role of traditional farriery in healing/palliating lame horses and returning them to service has been well documented since Kikkulis the Hittite wrote his little chariot manual? On the other hand, folks who subject their horses to the tender ministrations of the barefoot-at-any-cost movement are operating on untested protocols resultant of hypotheses that have never been subjected to scientific testing, publication and peer review - often with deleterious effect to the horses involved. In the unlikely event that barefoot basket cases - much less sound horses - start winning races, puissances, and grand prix, they'll still be plowing ground that was long ago tilled by traditional farriery.

As advertised, I'm a fan of stuff that works. On the other hand, I have the utmost contempt for anyone who allows a horse to live in pain in order to adhere to the anti-scientific nonsense of some politically correct, cult-leading, franchise seller.

Tom Stovall, CJF
Aug. 23, 2004, 05:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lookout:
um, so you're answering your own questions? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes'm (Yessir?). For the edification of this forum, I posted the answers to my simple little quiz. It was not my intention to embarrass or bully anyone into attempting to answer the questions, my purpose was educational.

That said, please understand that the class is not mandatory. The reader controls what he reads, not the author.

Lookout
Aug. 23, 2004, 06:38 PM
Who was talking about any of this? (other than you?) Why do you keep having conversations with yourself? You can do that without a BB. Stuff that works? Sounds like you set the bar pretty low for success.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall, CJF:
On the other hand, folks who subject their horses to the tender ministrations of the barefoot-at-any-cost movement are operating on untested protocols resultant of hypotheses that have never been subjected to scientific testing, publication and peer review - often with deleterious effect to the horses involved. In the unlikely event that barefoot basket cases - much less sound horses - start winning races, puissances, and grand prix, they'll still be plowing ground that was long ago tilled by traditional farriery.

As advertised, I'm a fan of stuff that works. On the other hand, I have the utmost contempt for anyone who allows a horse to live in pain in order to adhere to the anti-scientific nonsense of some politically correct, cult-leading, franchise seller. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lookout
Aug. 23, 2004, 06:39 PM
Yeah too bad no one took your bait. Like that couldn't have all been covered in one post.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall, CJF:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lookout:
um, so you're answering your own questions? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes'm (Yessir?). For the edification of this forum, I posted the answers to my simple little quiz. It was not my intention to embarrass or bully anyone into attempting to answer the questions, my purpose was educational.

That said, please understand that the class is not mandatory. The reader controls what he reads, not the author. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Txfarrier11
Aug. 23, 2004, 07:27 PM
Yes, Tom, its very important to econimize on the posts. Do you think they grow on trees or something?
While no trees are actualy destroyed in this process, millions of electrons are terribly inconvienced.

Tom Stovall, CJF
Aug. 23, 2004, 07:45 PM
<span class="ev_code_RED">For the edification of this forum, I posted the answers to my simple little quiz. It was not my intention to embarrass or bully anyone into attempting to answer the questions, my purpose was educational. </span>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lookout:
Yeah too bad no one took your bait.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You've confused bait with chum.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Like that couldn't have all been covered in one post.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If my humble Q&A methods of teaching technical farriery discombobulate you, for goodness sake, quit reading my stuff lest it cause you to
think - thereby breaking a precedent.

horse_poor
Aug. 23, 2004, 08:52 PM
oh my. dutch told me today when he was at the barn to read this after i quit freaking about my horse i was quite sure was dying

i shall now pop some popcorn and sit back and watch. anyone care to join me?

tom, welcome to COTH--we are a good bunch of people, for the most past--

Dutch speaks highly of you and given the fact that dutch is a miracle worker concerning my horses feet, if he says you are a good egg i must believe him. not only is he a farrier genius, or a master cobbler as my horse refers to him as, but he also feeds very well into the hysterical horse mother tye and takes full advantage of the naievity swirling about in the hysteria of the horse mom, often times feeding fabulous lines of BS to distract said hysterical horse mom.

ask dutch about holly hock and the rat that ate browns hoof http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

Lookout
Aug. 23, 2004, 09:10 PM
With such a low success rate, what is it exactly you're trying to teach?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall, CJF:
If my humble Q&A methods of teaching technical farriery discombobulate you, for goodness sake, quit reading my stuff lest it cause you to
think - thereby breaking a precedent. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Txfarrier11
Aug. 23, 2004, 09:36 PM
Um, nonadherance to THEORYS that havnt been proven to work in the real world with real horses?

horse_poor
Aug. 23, 2004, 09:46 PM
"On the other hand, I have the utmost contempt for anyone who allows a horse to live in pain in order to adhere to the anti-scientific nonsense of some politically correct, cult-leading, franchise seller. "

"The reader controls what he reads, not the author."

these are my favorite qoutes out of all this mess-they need to be put ona bumper sticker or immoralized in some other way.....

Tom Stovall, CJF
Aug. 23, 2004, 09:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lookout:
With such a low success rate, what is it exactly you're trying to teach? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aren't you the scholar who wrote, <span class="ev_code_RED">"There is no pressure on the navicular bone from the DDFT. In fact the more weight the horse applies to the foot the further the DDFT is pushed away from the bone..."</span>?

Given this demonstration of your vast knowledge of equid anatomy, I apparently didn't fare to well against your willful ignorance and intellectual intransigence. On the off chance that you might consider trading your ignorance for knowledge, you might consider looking up the etiology of navicular syndrome in any college level textbook.

LMH
Aug. 24, 2004, 01:21 PM
Would there be any way to tone this thread down and actually give some good input without everyone getting nasty?

I personally would enjoy hearing what everyone has to say but this seems to be a thread that should be titled Beat Up the Barefooters or Fart on Farriers-neither approach makes either side very appealing.

JB
Aug. 24, 2004, 01:25 PM
Good thing we have a supply of free popcorn here at work...

JB
Aug. 24, 2004, 01:33 PM
Ok Tom Stovall, I had to go look you up and found your site. I was reading the article on the 4-pt trim and have LOTS of questions on this statement:

"Basically, the so-called "four point trim" or "natural trim" is a reflection of the wear of horses' feet in abrasive environments, but such wear cannot be demonstrated to be a Good Thing. Trimming a horse a certain way because they will eventually wear their feet in that manner is just as logical as rasping off the rubber on one's tires because that's the way they'll eventually wear. "

Can you PLEASE explain how trimming the foot the way the horse is trimming it necessarily a bad thing? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

slb
Aug. 24, 2004, 01:42 PM
My thoughts also LMH...
But, I learned a long time ago...and Burney Chapman notes this in his information...that in farrier (and vet) practices egos are just to big. Watching appritices come and go...one thing I learned is that after about 30 days, the cab of an F350 just gets too small for two god-like creatures to ride comfortably in! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Txfarrier11
Aug. 24, 2004, 02:16 PM
I know Tom , as I did Burney and if you want to call them egotistical, go ahead. Both have been friends and mentors to me and I havent found this to be true.
Tom is , as Burney was, pretty plainspoken, with little use for things that havnt been proven to work as opposed to things that have.
I guess you could mistake that for egotisim but I feel its more impatience with people that want to believe theorys are facts.

Tom Stovall, CJF
Aug. 24, 2004, 02:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JB:
Ok Tom Stovall, I had to go look you up and found your site. I was reading the article on the 4-pt trim and have LOTS of questions on this statement:

_"Basically, the so-called "four point trim" or "natural trim" is a reflection of the wear of horses' feet in abrasive environments, but such wear cannot be demonstrated to be a Good Thing. Trimming a horse a certain way because they will eventually wear their feet in that manner is just as logical as rasping off the rubber on one's tires because that's the way they'll eventually wear. "_

Can you PLEASE explain how trimming the foot the way the horse is trimming it _necessarily_ a bad thing? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The way a horse at liberty wears its foot in an abrasive environment is not necessarily the most efficient form for the foot of a domestic horse in use.

The foot of any horse at liberty is always a reflection of its environment, but that foot does not need to be particularly efficient in terms of transference of energy into motion. On the other hand, the foot of horse in use should be the most efficient means of transferring energy to motion.

For example: Flat racers, steeplechasers, harness horses, and barrel horses are all speed horses engaged in objectively quantified activities, but the different physical demands of each discipline and the conformational differences between horses within each discipline require slightly different trimming/shoeing methods for each individual in order to obtain optimum efficiency.

One size does not fit all; the only absolute is physical law.

LMH
Aug. 24, 2004, 02:30 PM
Dutch, that is fine that he or you or anyone is frustrated with certain trim methods or barefoot horses in general...however I don't think abrasive responses are the way to get people to listen.

Some of us do not have barefoot horses in order to make a political statement, rather got exhausted with the egos, snide comments, primadonna attitudes---not to mention, long toes, underrun heels, and a whole host of other imbalances.

So short of learning how to shoe a horse (quite an exhausting notion, to say the least) some of us looked for options---that don't require hammering metal...that left barefoot horses.

Now we have to learn how to trim these horses....ask second in line to God? That usually gets received with the same enthusiasm as raw chicken served warm....

SO step two-find someone that will teach you---that would be barefoot trimmers. As with farriers, there are good trimmers and bad trimmers.

Sadly I found a bad one first and my horses paid the price...but not since then.

I don't know about every horse condition on every horse-I can only speak for those in my care. They have balanced feet, the move better than they did in shoes, my old TB always had contracted muley feet-his are wider and strong, my 6yo has hock trouble-never was sound in shoes....is he sound now? Well he is ridden pain free even though he is still weak behind.

So with that in front of me, I choose this path. If you would introduce me to a farrier in my area that is open to communicating with the owner and committed to balancing feet, and doesn't expect me to cater to his every need, I would be happy to sit down and talk with him.

Until then, we do the best we can for our horses-so far mine are not suffering, rather thriving as a result of the choices I have made.

LMH
Aug. 24, 2004, 02:33 PM
Tom, you posted while I posted...would you please explain (generally) how you would trim a jumper different from a dressage? Or choose a different comparison if there is no difference in that one....for example do you leave more heel on a jumper? more toe? etc?

Wouldn't a foot in balance be a foot in balance regardless of the discipline in which the horse is used? How can you change trims from use to use and still end up with a foot that is balanced and the joints aligned?

slb
Aug. 24, 2004, 02:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Txfarrier11:
I know Tom , as I did Burney and if you want to call them egotistical, go ahead. Both have been friends and mentors to me and I havent found this to be true.
Tom is , as Burney was, pretty plainspoken, with little use for things that havnt been proven to work as opposed to things that have.
I guess you could mistake that for egotisim but I feel its more impatience with people that want to believe theorys are facts. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never said any such thing...
I simply implyed that egos run high when it comes to whose right and wrong on these subjects. I was noting Chapman's agreement of this...not calling him egotisical. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

There is plenty of "proof" that the things I mentioned work. There are plenty of farriers out there applying the principles that I mentioned and there is plenty of "cutting edge" (read that 10-20 year old) research to back it up.

What I see in this discussion is that if we don't agree with Mr. Stovall, then we are lunitic-fringe, die-hard barefooters. I never even mentioned barefoot as a treatment....I only disagreed with permanent wedging. How does that make me fit into his "one-size-fits-all" catagory of "inexperienced fanatics"?

And...if you are looking for proof of what works, then I would be happy to supply you with the cases studies that back my statements of success.

Cindeye
Aug. 24, 2004, 03:16 PM
* Pulls up a chair and gets out the Junior Mints and strawberry Twizzlers. Settles in for a long session of watching from the sidelines. Hopes she doesn't develop tendonitis in her neck from watching the balls being batted back and forth.*

Lookout
Aug. 24, 2004, 03:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall, CJF:
Aren't you the scholar who wrote, <span class="ev_code_RED">"There is no pressure on the navicular bone from the DDFT. In fact the more weight the horse applies to the foot the further the DDFT is pushed away from the bone..."</span>?

Given this demonstration of your vast knowledge of equid anatomy, I apparently didn't fare to well against your willful ignorance and intellectual intransigence. On the off chance that you might consider trading your ignorance for knowledge, you might consider looking up the etiology of navicular syndrome in any college level textbook. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, that is correct and that is what happens. Have you ever tried it to see for yourself what happens? Or failing that, seen it demonstrated on the Pollitt video? Given the lack of knowledge of the etiology of navicular in a college level textbook, as well as the failure rate of the palliative attempts, that is not what I would point to as the source of accurate anatomical information.

horse_poor
Aug. 24, 2004, 03:21 PM
there is something about hooves that make horse people crazy insane-

heres a thought....how about there are horses everywhere who need a little bit of this and a little bit of that?

personally one of my guys HAD to have shoes on to correct some issues-however dutch made the decision yesterday that perhaps maybe just maybe the shoes can be pulled next time---i have another horse who needs shoes in the summer because he cant walk across the gravel in the driveway-should i make him tyough it out so he gets used to it and can eventually go barefoot? no--why should i make him have to suck it up when i can immediately make him confortable? but thats jusy my opinion-in the winter he goes barefoot---

i think everyone has valid arguements--- lets just all be nice and not be snarky--i dont have enough popcorn to go all around and i have rubn out of room on my couch after the whole probation thread on off course....

speaking of off ourse, tom and dutch i would LOFF your input on the "should i ask out the farrier" thread on off course..of course dutch and i discussed it yesterday during his visit at the barn, but his opinions on the matter along with toms would be fun all the same

Babs
Aug. 24, 2004, 03:42 PM
cyberbay

Do you mind giving me info on your horse? Conformational type, breed, weight, history of shoeing, riding (jumping, etc). Pictures would be great. I just wanna learn. Thanks! Barbara

horse_poor
Aug. 24, 2004, 03:45 PM
hey cindeye! i didnt see ya over there *waves*

welcome to the great farrier/hoof debate-careful its gettin kinda heated-might wanna push your chair back a bit

btw who has the papasan couch now? the girls over in probation still using it?

Cindeye
Aug. 24, 2004, 03:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by horse_poor:
hey cindeye! i didnt see ya over there *waves*

welcome to the great farrier/hoof debate-careful its gettin kinda heated-might wanna push your chair back a bit

btw who has the papasan couch now? the girls over in probation still using it? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*Waves back* It is I, Cindeye http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

You might want to go back over and retrieve the papasan couch. Last I saw someone had spilled a chocolate martini and it looked like the stain was going to be pretty bad.

horse_poor
Aug. 24, 2004, 03:50 PM
nah too comfy in my beanbag-i will just have to sue someone over it

Tom Stovall, CJF
Aug. 24, 2004, 03:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lookout:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall, CJF:
Aren't you the scholar who wrote, <span class="ev_code_RED">"There is no pressure on the navicular bone from the DDFT. In fact the more weight the horse applies to the foot the further the DDFT is pushed away from the bone..."</span>?

Given this demonstration of your vast knowledge of equid anatomy, I apparently didn't fare too well against your willful ignorance and intellectual intransigence. On the off chance that you might consider trading your ignorance for knowledge, you might consider looking up the etiology of navicular syndrome in any college level textbook. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, that is correct and that is what happens. Have you ever tried it to see for yourself what happens? Or failing that, seen it demonstrated on the Pollitt video? Given the lack of knowledge of the etiology of navicular in a college level textbook, as well as the failure rate of the palliative attempts, that is not what I would point to as the source of accurate anatomical information. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think I see your problem relative to your mistaken ideas of equid anatomy and physiology: It appears your views are the result of videos and/or the dissection of a foot, not the entire leg.

Please understand that if the DDFT is <span class="ev_code_RED">not</span>connected the flexor muscles, then it will not place the proximal sesamoids or the distal sesamoid in compression when the joint is flexed; however, in a living horse, absent some catastrophic event, when the flexor muscles are flexed, the DDFT places the sesamoids in compression.

While you may find classroom veterinary texts of most modern veterinary schools to be a poor source of information relative to the etiology of the various pathologies that comprise navicular syndrome, I find them, and the annotations thereto, to be infinitely superior to the observations of few individuals. What's good enough for a vet student is certainly good enough for me.

That said, if you feel the classroom texts are inadequate, perhaps you may find these observations useful:

2001 Wilson A.M. McGuigan M.P. Fouracre L. & MacMahon L. The force and contact stress on the navicular bone during trot locomotion in sound
horses and horses with Navicular disease. Equine Veterinary Journal, 33,159-165.

1999 Wilson, A.M., McGuigan,M.P., & Pardoe, C.H. The use of corrective shoeing to reduce compression of the distal sesamoid by the deep digital flexor tendon in the horse. Proceedings International Society of Biomechanics Conference.

1999 Wilson A.M. McGuigan M.P. & Pardoe C.H. The use of eggbar shoes to reduce the compressive load exerted on the navicular bone by the deep
digital flexor tendon. Proceedings British Equine Veterinary Association.

Bea
Aug. 24, 2004, 04:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall, CJF:
Please understand that if the DDFT is <span class="ev_code_RED">not</span>connected the flexor muscles, then it will not place the proximal sesamoids or the distal sesamoid in compression when the joint is flexed; however, in a living horse, absent some catastrophic event, when the flexor muscles are flexed, the DDFT places the sesamoids in compression. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As a complete amateur bystander, that makes sense to me. That one piece of the mechanism can not be looked at independently. But of course I'm more than willing to be bribed over to the other team. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Can't, hasn't, someone done a 3D computer model of a horse? One you could lower the heels on, raise the heels on, and so, in order to judge the effects on soft tissue etc. I'm sure I've seen human computer models on Discovery channel programs. I'd be more than willing to donate $5 or so to develope one, if it would ease the bickering. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Dutch, maybe you could put your navicular vaccine on hold and program a nice computer horsie instead?

slb
Aug. 24, 2004, 04:20 PM
Then you assume that all or at least the majority of navicular syndrome is the result of compression? What about concussion? And how does misalingment of the joints promote or reduce compression?

BTW...
To add to your list of reading suggestions for Lookout:

Willemen et al. 1999, Orthopedic Shoeing Effects on the Navicular Bone in Horses

"Egg-bar shoes did not reduce the force on the navicular bone but in unshod feet this force appeared to be 14% lower (P&lt;0.05) compared to flat shoes."

And another FYI:
If you look beyond current university texts, you will find that researchers that teach out of those books find flaws in them. For example, Dr. Lewis..."father of protein caues problems in growing horses"...has long since retracted his negative statements about protein, but it still remains in univeristy texts and is still taught in the classroom. It is generally agreed that vets are coming out of school at least a decade or more behind the research.

Tom Stovall, CJF
Aug. 24, 2004, 04:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LMH:
Tom, you posted while I posted...would you please explain (generally) how you would trim a jumper different from a dressage? Or choose a different comparison if there is no difference in that one....for example do you leave more heel on a jumper? more toe? etc?

Wouldn't a foot in balance be a foot in balance regardless of the discipline in which the horse is used? How can you change trims from use to use and still end up with a foot that is balanced and the joints aligned? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let's say we have a nice 8yo Dutch Warmblood (hereinafter called, "Dumblood"), that is reasonably athletic, a decent mover, with unremarkable conformation. We want to set the horse up to be as good as he can be in each discipline, jumping and dressage.

If we want to trim/shoe Dumblood as a jumper, then we will do whatever it takes to insure he is trimmed/shod as efficiently as possible for whatever environments he may encounter - anything from wet grass to deep sand.

We'll trim Dumblood with as short a toe as is practicable, the exfoliating sole and bars will be trimmed slightly below the ground surface of the wall, and we'll leave the frog alone except as is necessary to maintain the self-cleaning properties of the foot. Nothing extraordinary:
natural, aligned, angulation. Next, we'll use a lateral radiograph to insure the phalanges are aligned and an a/p shot to insure the spaces on either side of the midline of the pastern (aka, PIJ) and coffin (aka, DIJ) joints are the equal.
Assuming no corrections are necessary, we'll most likely apply 3/4" or 7/8" steel half rounds in front, with the heels drilled and tapped for 3/8" 16t screw-in calks. (The only time the screw-ins will be installed is when Dumblood is schooling or jumping.) Dumblood's hinds will be trimmed and shod in a similar manner, but we'll nail on hot fit, quarter clipped Kerckhearts or Werkmans, heels drilled and tapped for 3/8" 16t screw-ins. (Jumpers routinely torque a loaded foot, which usually requires clips.)

When shoeing jumpers, the object of the exercise is to allow the horse move as efficiently as possible because jumping is an objectively quantified endeavor.

Dressage horses are whole different ballgame because their movement is subjectively quantified according to an artificial ideal. As a consequence, Dumblood will be trimmed a bit differently as a dressage horse: Balance and alignment will be the same, but instead of trimming the foot as short as practicable, we'll leave a bit more toe, which will will make Dumblood work a bit harder to turn his foot over, thereby giving him a flatter knee, and the appearance, not the reality, of greater extension. The inefficiency won't hurt him, because because dressage horses don't really use themselves.

Since Dumblood's connections just decided to make a dressage horse out of him, he won't have hock problems; but, as he progresses through the training levels, he probably will. If I have my way, we'll leave him barefoot behind. Many dressage horses go as good as they can barefooted, but most DQs and their trainers insist on shoes. I usually use Kerckhaert SSPs because they are have plenty of web and are well suited for Warmbloods. About the time a horse makes it to Prix St. George, his hocks are gone and I switch to half rounds behind if they won't let me leave the horse barefooted.

Unless a horse is interfering, balance and alignment are always be the primary consideration in trimming/shoeing in any discipline, but there are many, many, subtle variations one can be make within normal parameters that can change the way a horse moves. No two are exactly alike; no two are trimmed/shod exactly alike.

Tom Stovall, CJF
Aug. 24, 2004, 05:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by slb:
Then you assume that all or at least the majority of navicular syndrome is the result of compression? What about concussion? And how does misalingment of the joints promote or reduce compression? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please don't be disingenuous. I have assumed nothing, I responded to several posts in which you and another scholar questioned the role of compression of the navicular bone by the DDFT in the etiology of navicular syndrome. I did not delineate the causes, I pointed out your errors.

In another post, I wrote,<span class="ev_code_RED">"The etiology of navicular syndrome is described in various veterinary and farrier texts mainly as concussion and various predisposing factors - especially the extremely upright, big horse/ small foot presentation common to Quarter-types.</span> Perhaps you missed it.

[deletia]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
And another FYI:
If you look beyond current university texts, you will find that researchers that teach out of those books find flaws in them. For example, Dr. Lewis..."father of protein caues problems in growing horses"...has long since retracted his negative statements about protein, but it still remains in univeristy texts and is still taught in the classroom. It is generally agreed that vets are coming out of school at least a decade or more behind the research. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Generally agreed by whom? I find most newly minted large equine practitioners, fresh out of residency, to be typically knowledgeable of the latest research and woefully lacking in knowledge of life beyond academia. Perhaps your experience differs, but both the faculty and residents at Texas A&M are deeply involved in equine research. See also: David Hood, DVM; William Moyer, DVM.

LMH
Aug. 24, 2004, 05:51 PM
Thank you Tom for your reply...if you could just clarify one or two points for me...

If you change his toe length, wouldn't that change his hoof angle? If so how can each still be considered balanced and aligned with different angles? ( I am assuming you are shortening the toe by backing it up, as opposed to shortening the foot overall from the bottom, please correct me if that assumption is wrong).

Wouldn't leaving the toe longer, making him work harder to turn his foot over lead to other complications-perhaps in the tendons or ligaments? If so how can this still be considered professional?

Also, before the attacks come in a less magnolia, honey and sugar response, could you explain your position that dressage horses do not use themselves...would you say this is true even at upper level?

Do you really prefer dressage horse to go barefoot behind or now are you just trying the charm method and throwing a small but appreciated bone to the barefooters? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

horse_poor
Aug. 24, 2004, 06:09 PM
lmh-i loff you-you need to become an international ambassador of goodwill http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif you always keep/maintain the peace!

AllWeatherGal
Aug. 24, 2004, 06:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by horse_poor:
lmh-i loff you-you need to become an international ambassador of goodwill http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif you always keep/maintain the peace! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a fact. It's your fault I'm even reading this thread and had s/he not made the remark about dressage horses I would have had to wade into the fray with my shocked disappointment.

Tom Stovall, CJF
Aug. 24, 2004, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by LMH:

[Forgive my screwups, I'm playing with this thing and its winning...]

Thank you Tom for your reply...if you could just clarify one or two points for me...

If you change his toe length, wouldn't that change his hoof angle?...

<span class="ev_code_RED">All other things being equal, leaving a bit more toe makes the hoof angle more acute, but angulation can be changed up to three degrees in most light horses without affecting either alignment or balance. A/P balance is not a point, it's a window.</span>

If so how can each still be considered balanced and aligned with different angles? ( I am assuming you are shortening the toe by backing it up, as opposed to shortening the foot overall from the bottom, please correct me if that assumption is wrong).

<span class="ev_code_RED">Both scenarios presume balanced pairs.</span>

Wouldn't leaving the toe longer, making him work harder to turn his foot over lead to other complications-perhaps in the tendons or ligaments? If so how can this still be considered professional?...

<span class="ev_code_RED">Shoeing horses to a subjective ideal by manipulating the levers is what professional show farriers do and quite often the difference between reds and blues. To my knowledge, the long term effects of a/p balancing at one end of the window or the other have not been studied - but hunters usually last longer than jumpers.</span>

Also, before the attacks come in a less magnolia, honey and sugar response, could you explain your position that dressage horses do not use themselves...would you say this is true even at upper level?

<span class="ev_code_RED">My background is primarily speed horses and cow horses; in comparison to jumpers, runners, barrel horses, big circle horses, using horses, etc., no dressage horse uses itself.</span>

Do you really prefer dressage horse to go barefoot behind or now are you just trying the charm method and throwing a small but appreciated bone to the barefooters?

<span class="ev_code_RED">
Quite a few years ago, I wrote, There're only three reasons for shoeing a horse: protection, traction, or to effect a therapeutic change in way of going - all else is vanity. It was true then, it's true now.</span>

Simkie
Aug. 24, 2004, 06:40 PM
Hey Stovall! Good to see you here http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ghazzu
Aug. 24, 2004, 06:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by slb:
For example, Dr. Lewis..."father of protein caues problems in growing horses"...has long since retracted his negative statements about protein, but it still remains in univeristy texts and is still taught in the classroom. It is generally agreed that vets are coming out of school at least a decade or more behind the research. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whoinhell is still teaching that?

As far as "generally agreed", by whom?
Neophyte DVMs may leave the classroom behind the cutting edge in some areas, but it is the faculty members at their schools who are doing most of the research

Ghazzu
Aug. 24, 2004, 06:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bea:
Can't, hasn't, someone done a 3D computer model of a horse? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe the "Glass Horse" folks have recently come out with a musculoskeletal module, but I haven't seen it yet.

Lookout
Aug. 24, 2004, 07:06 PM
Just curious, why you would assume that. Generally speaking farriers shorten toes from the bottom, not by backing them up.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LMH:
If you change his toe length, wouldn't that change his hoof angle? If so how can each still be considered balanced and aligned with different angles? ( I am assuming you are shortening the toe by backing it up, as opposed to shortening the foot overall from the bottom, please correct me if that assumption is wrong).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMH
Aug. 24, 2004, 08:35 PM
whoa---I guess I willingly entered the battlefield so here I am http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I assumed what I did because when I think of shortening a toe, I think of backing it up...I asked to be sure Tom and I were talking apples and apples---I don't think it matters which way *I* assumed as I asked him to clarify-which he did.

I do not know enough farriers nationwide to know which method (shortening from the bottom vs. backing up) that most use...I actually had no idea that there was a generalization...and to be honest would have thought that Tom was talking about backing up toes.

And to Tom....if I might I would like to respectfully disagree with your conclusion regarding dressage horses...in any discipline there are good and bad, well trained and not so well trained horses...I come from a hunter background but have great respect for dressage horses and cutters simply make my heart sing http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif so I don't think I carry any bias in this regard.

I should think, and try to think about this, that a horse at upper levels that performs lateral moves, tempi changes, piaffe and passage---quiet often (ok perhaps not as often as we would like but let's dream a bit) in self carriage without assistance of the rein aids of the rider...in particular bridleless demonstrations come to mind, anyway these horses are indeed using themselves....top level athletes are just that-I don't think it fair to determine a pecking order of fitness...I dare say a good reiner and dressage horse could go head to head any day http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And to those offering the kind comments about my "diplomacy" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif...I guess I am just in a pleasant mood! LOL!

Besides, I have siad before, I enjoy these threads for the learning and thought stimulation...so I like to hear all sides....at the end we may not all agree but I will guarantee something will be gained.

LMH
Aug. 24, 2004, 08:38 PM
OH I forgot to add one question-Tom you mentioned that varying a hoof angle in a light horse by 2-3 degrees will not affect the balance and alignment as a whole...again, to clarify...by light are you refering to TB,QH, and WB type horses-would the same then not be true of draft crosses? By your statement, I would think no.

Also is this information verified or just your conclusions based on years of practice? Not agreeing or disagreeing...in my very green exposure to hoof care, I am not familiar with this idea and am interested in how you arrived at your conclusion.

LMH
Aug. 24, 2004, 08:45 PM
mmmm...sorry another point caught my exhausted eye-regarding the AP balancing not being studied....then how would you know if long term damage is not indeed being done.

As far as the generalization that hunters last longer than hunters...again I think that just ALL depends on the total care provided, the overall athleticism and strength of the horse and many other factors that would prohibit making a sweeping statement. Granted just the fact the hunters max out at 4ft (regular working division) and traditional jumpers max out around 5'6" or so (not even taking into account puissance (spelling?), that alone of course can contribute to a horses longevity...however, different care provides different care.

Also regarding the dressage horses with shot hocks, just being in a betting kind of mood, I am willing to lay a little money that there are also horses competing in the disciplines that you mentioned, as well as WP horses and all other disciplines that are suffering from the same degeneration of hock joints.

So, bringing this back on track to the original topic....in a small readers digest version, could you explain to me your process and ultimate goal for treating a horse exhibiting navicular pain....obviously you want him pain free...but how exactly do you get there?

horse_poor
Aug. 24, 2004, 10:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AllWeatherGal:
It's your fault I'm even reading this thread and had s/he not made the remark about dressage horses I would have had to wade into the fray with my shocked disappointment. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

me?????????? moi???????????? how is it MY fault? and how can this thread be anywhere near diappointing, with or without the dressage comment?

perhaps i find it more entertaining as i know dutch personally and have heard him mention mr stovall on occassion-plus there is some snarkiness, which always makes for great entertainment

plus, i am actually learning something and will have dutch quiz me the next time he is here about what i have learned

slb
Aug. 24, 2004, 10:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Please don't be disingenuous. I have assumed nothing, I responded to several posts in which you and another scholar questioned the role of compression of the navicular bone by the DDFT in the etiology of navicular syndrome. I did not delineate the causes, I pointed out your errors. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was an honest question...not an assumption or snide remark on my part. Since your comments have continuously contained information focused on compression, then I was asking if you assume that the majority of navicular cases are caused by compression related problems. This seems to be your focus in relieving DDFT pressure.

You have not addressed any errors that I made. I do not agree with Lookout in the statements on anatomy and mechanics. Perhaps I should have clarified that I was seconding the part of the statement that noted: "....there is no reason to expect these recommendations to work..."

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>In another post, I wrote,<span class="ev_code_RED">"The etiology of navicular syndrome is described in various veterinary and farrier texts mainly as concussion and various predisposing factors - especially the extremely upright, big horse/ small foot presentation common to Quarter-types.</span> Perhaps you missed it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I didn't miss it...I simply wanted clarification on your assumptions of navicular as you attempt to treat them. Having a better understanding of what you assume is the cause in the majority of cases helps to gain a better understanding of why you believe that your methods work and the protocals that I refer to do not.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Generally agreed by whom? I find most newly minted large equine practitioners, fresh out of residency, to be typically knowledgeable of the latest research and woefully lacking in knowledge of life beyond academia. Perhaps your experience differs, but both the faculty and residents at Texas A&M are deeply involved in equine research. See also: David Hood, DVM; William Moyer, DVM. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am quite familiar with Hood and Moyer. Are you familar with researchers in the East? It is the researchers at Cornell and Penn State that have noted in their public lectures (not necessarily hoof related) that it often takes a decade to change vet texts and that the only way that vets are able to get revised information is if the instructor is researching and has an interest in the area being taught...which is not always the case. However, speaking in generalalities (not of vet schools), having taught at RPI, I would agree totally with your assessment...many grad students are sharp and often have had the advantage of getting cutting edge info in some of their studies (but not all) but greatly lack skills that apply in the real world.

Cindeye
Aug. 24, 2004, 11:01 PM
* Stretches. Pushes chair back a bit to avoid being hit by a ball. *

This is a great thread. It's snarky AND I'm learning something. Please, please continue.

Tom Stovall, CJF
Aug. 25, 2004, 06:23 AM
Originally posted by slb:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>In another post, I wrote,<span class="ev_code_RED">"The etiology of navicular syndrome is described in various veterinary and farrier texts mainly as concussion and various predisposing factors - especially the extremely upright, big horse/ small foot presentation common to Quarter-types.</span> Perhaps you missed it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't miss it...I simply wanted clarification on your assumptions of navicular as you attempt to treat them. Having a better understanding of what you assume is the cause in the majority of cases helps to gain a better understanding of why you believe that your methods work and the protocols that I refer to do not.
[/QUOTE]

As advertised, I'm a fan of stuff that works and I try to trim/shoe each individual based on the individual's need, not what happens to trendy at the moment. I'm also a fan of cameras and stopwatches. I measure the efficacy of my protocols by the most simple of means: the individual's response. In other words, when I have a bar shoe on a speed horse, you can bet your entire holdings that if somebody pulls that shoe off, that horse is not going to run as fast without it as he did with it.

I don't trim/shoe on the basis of academic conjecture, I rely on demonstrable efficacy.

I can't say I've ever "cured" any form of navicular syndrome, but I've returned several to service, and done so on a timely basis - as in limp on the mats, walk off sound. Horses trimmed/shod according to the protocols I espouse have won G-1 stakes, barrel racing go-rounds at the NFR, high dollar grand prix, and countless other measures of speed, athletic ability, and agility. As a consequence, I'm not quite ready to place any reliance on the untested protocols of academia, no matter how highly touted.

I'd be most interested in knowing what you'd do for a barrel horse that has been diagnosed with NS in October when the richest rodeo in the world, the NFR, is coming up in December. BTDT, it's not a fun thing.

Tom Stovall, CJF
Aug. 25, 2004, 07:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LMH:
mmmm...sorry another point caught my exhausted eye-regarding the AP balancing not being studied....then how would you know if long term damage is not indeed being done.

<span class="ev_code_RED">Lack of evidence suggesting long term damage is a good indicator. Both the DIJ and PIJ flex in an A/P plane, neither flexes much M/L - a factor that allows the existence of a balance "window." The parameters of M/L balance are much more unforgiving because the consequences of imbalance are immediate and involve unequal bone-to-bone loading.</span>

As far as the generalization that hunters last longer than hunters...again I think that just ALL depends on the total care provided, the overall athleticism and strength of the horse and many other factors that would prohibit making a sweeping statement. Granted just the fact the hunters max out at 4ft (regular working division) and traditional jumpers max out around 5'6" or so (not even taking into account puissance (spelling?), that alone of course can contribute to a horses longevity...however, different care provides different care.

<span class="ev_code_RED">When considering all the horses deemed hunters by the USEF, in my experience, hunters last longer than jumpers.</span>

Also regarding the dressage horses with shot hocks, just being in a betting kind of mood, I am willing to lay a little money that there are also horses competing in the disciplines that you mentioned, as well as WP horses and all other disciplines that are suffering from the same degeneration of hock joints.

<span class="ev_code_RED">Again, in my experience, dressage horses have a higher incidence of hock problems than do flat racers, hunters, and jumpers. With respect to hock pathologies, the incidence in dressage horses is similar to that of barrel horses, harness horses, and reiners. One can hypothesize the greater incidence is related to use.</span>

So, bringing this back on track to the original topic....in a small readers digest version, could you explain to me your process and ultimate goal for treating a horse exhibiting navicular pain....obviously you want him pain free...but how exactly do you get there? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_RED">Bear in mind that the majority of my custom is comprised of show and performance horses. On presentation of horses diagnosed with navicular syndrome and in the absence of veterinary prescription other than, "Fix the horse," I do whatever I can to address the biomechanical causes of the pathology, protect the affected area from environmental pressure, and make the foot as efficient as possible. Usually, not always, this consists of reducing the length of the phalangeal lever, increasing phalangeal angulation, and the application of some type of bar shoe to protect the affected area.</span>

Robby Johnson
Aug. 25, 2004, 07:19 AM
Well look what the cat dragged in! It's about time!

Welcome to the Chronicle buddy! Thank you for all of your sage advice. Where farriery is concerned, you truly raise the bar in education for all horse-owners.

Robby

LMH
Aug. 25, 2004, 08:02 AM
Hoping I am not repeating a topic already discussed...I am just trying to catch up here. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If I understand correctly (sometimes it is easier, to quote Denzel Washington, explain it to me as if I were a 6yo), you would "normally" (obviously exceptions to every rule) treat a navicular horse by elevating his heel height....ala wedges.

Are you familiar with Dr Bowker? And his "recent" conclusions regarding navicular pain in horses? Obviously if you are either not familiar with him, then that needs to be first addressed...

If you are and do not respect his findings, I am curious as to why....specifically what incorrectness do you find in his work (for others reading, he has advocating not wedging horses for navicular and has even found success in relieving the pain through barefoot).

slb
Aug. 25, 2004, 08:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall, CJF:
I don't trim/shoe on the basis of academic conjecture, I rely on demonstrable efficacy.

I can't say I've ever "cured" any form of navicular syndrome, but I've returned several to service, and done so on a timely basis - as in limp on the mats, walk off sound. Horses trimmed/shod according to the protocols I espouse have won G-1 stakes, barrel racing go-rounds at the NFR, high dollar grand prix, and countless other measures of speed, athletic ability, and agility. As a consequence, I'm not quite ready to place any reliance on the untested protocols of academia, no matter how highly touted.

I'd be most interested in knowing what you'd do for a barrel horse that has been diagnosed with NS in October when the richest rodeo in the world, the NFR, is coming up in December. BTDT, it's not a fun thing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My only response is that it is quite evident that you your success comes from working for the human client....and indeed many farriers do this as, afterall, it is they that pay the bills and insure the farrier's continuted employment.

On the other hand, the success that I speak of comes from working for the equine client. If it takes a year for the horse to heal, then the human will have to "suck it up". If not, then I suspect, they call you or those who subscribe to your methods. IMO, any horse in need of a therapeutic application should not be in world, national or even local competition. In my world, horses are expected to perform, but they are no longer treated as livestock.

LMH
Aug. 25, 2004, 08:15 AM
Lookout I missed this question from you...KC showed up for one post in this thread:

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=6656094911&f=5206053911&m=619209763

jester1113
Aug. 25, 2004, 08:46 AM
Two words come to mind: polemic and pedantic. Just please let him have the last word or this thread will never end.

Tom Stovall, CJF
Aug. 25, 2004, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by LMH:
Hoping I am not repeating a topic already discussed...I am just trying to catch up here. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If I understand correctly (sometimes it is easier, to quote Denzel Washington, explain it to me as if I were a 6yo), you would "normally" (obviously exceptions to every rule) treat a navicular horse by elevating his heel height....ala wedges.

<span class="ev_code_RED">In my experience, long and lows diagnosed with navicular syndrome respond immediately and favorably to wedges and other forms of heel elevation (esp., various moldable prosthetic devices) provided the bearing surface of the heels can be increased sufficiently. All else being equal, slapping a wedge under a horse that has run under heels is a recipe for crushed heels unless the aberrant growth is removed. New growth follows old.</span>

Are you familiar with Dr Bowker? And his "recent" conclusions regarding navicular pain in horses? Obviously if you are either not familiar with him, then that needs to be first addressed...

<span class="ev_code_RED">Yes'm, I try to keep up.</span>

If you are and do not respect his findings, I am curious as to why....specifically what incorrectness do you find in his work (for others reading, he has advocating not wedging horses for navicular and has even found success in relieving the pain through barefoot).

<span class="ev_code_RED">In reality, Bowker he has made a series of observations and formulated a hypothesis (aka, "SWAG") in order explain what he observed without attempting to confirm his hypothesis by testing, publication and peer review. When Bowker's observations include horses in use and his recommended protocols enable horses in use to be returned to service on a timely basis, his observations will become relevant to pragmatic farriery.</span>

Tom Stovall, CJF
Aug. 25, 2004, 09:37 AM
<span class="ev_code_RED">Re: I can't say I've ever "cured" any form of navicular syndrome, but I've returned several to service, and done so on a timely basis - as in limp on the mats, walk off sound. Horses trimmed/shod according to the protocols I espouse have won G-1 stakes, barrel racing go-rounds at the NFR, high dollar grand prix, and countless other measures of speed, athletic ability, and agility. As a consequence, I'm not quite ready to place any reliance on the untested protocols of academia, no matter how highly touted...</span>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by slb:

My only response is that it is quite evident that you your success comes from working for the human client....and indeed many farriers do this as, afterall, it is they that pay the bills and insure the farrier's continuted employment.

On the other hand, the success that I speak of comes from working for the equine client. If it takes a year for the horse to heal, then the human will have to "suck it up". If not, then I suspect, they call you or those who subscribe to your methods. IMO, any horse in need of a therapeutic application should not be in world, national or even local competition. In my world, horses are expected to perform, but they are no longer treated as livestock. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_RED">Therein lies the difference between you and I and our approach to farriery. I define "success" as the application of whatever mechanical protocols will enable the horse to be both pain free and in use without deleterious effect.</span>

LMH
Aug. 25, 2004, 09:39 AM
Hmmmmm.....without jumping to fast to conclusions, perhaps we have indeed found the source of the discrepancy...and I believe slb touched on this point in an earlier post...something to the effect of farrier work for the people clients vs. farrier work for the horse client.

In an ideal work, these two goals should be one, but sadly I would say that is often not the common occurence.

Tom, you have made several references in your posts to doing what is needed to get a horse back to performing as soon as possible--obviously a necessary goal to keep clients happy and your bills paid...you do what you have found to be, acccording to your experiences, the safest method possible to achieve the goal of returned performance in the shortest time possible. Obviously at some point, this cannot be achieved with any method and time will be the only solution.

However I think others come from a different perspective, long term soundness even at the expense of current competition.

I of course am not saying *your* method is a guaranteed wash in 6 months or 2 years and *the other method* is a guaranteed soundness for 10 years....however some grey mixing of this idea I do believe is the truth.

Take underrun heels for example-add a wedge and horse is short term sound-but even by your own admissions long term use of wedges will infact further crush the heels causing more complications. SO client has huge competition, you are her new farrier--waddya gonna do? Tell her this will take you one year to repair or put the wedge on and deal with it later?

Usually plan B goes into effect under this scenario.

Now, my limited personal experience would show that it is even faster to correct by working with the horse barefoot-but whoa nellie, now the competitive owner is gonna really flip her wig because there will NOT be show next week or the week after with this method.

Would you be willing to meet somewhere in this area, with this conclusion?

LMH
Aug. 25, 2004, 09:43 AM
LOL-it appears we have posted at the same time and reached the same conclusion.

I do however have a "follow-up" question or statement...are you saying Bowker just had this idea and has no real case studies to prove it...and this is the basis of his publications?
He never tested his lower the heel idea on any horses?

cyberbay
Aug. 25, 2004, 10:12 AM
Thanks for all the information and posting. I've been wading through the recommended articles. I may have missed a point, but it seems that all that I'm doing now is about all there is to do??, if I want the horse to stay in work during this period. Thanks, Bea, for the extra info of tiludronate. A horse in the barn has been treated with that, by IV drip, I believe, but don't know the outcome (he's still slightly off, actually, so that may have been the outcome).

Thanks, Pocket pony, postingtrot, slb, Indysmom (I hope it's going OK for you, too), and swampgum for all of your great suggestions. Thanks to Tom S. for weighing in directly and for everyone for keeping the discussion going. So far, so good with this horse, who is happy to be back in work and doing something with his body. Then again, he might be lame when I go see him this a'noon!

Bensmom
Aug. 25, 2004, 10:13 AM
I'm still trying to catch up and debating about whether I should even ask you guys my questions, as here lately, I've come up with a bunch of new ones, but I wanted to add to this, posted by Ghazzu:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> posted Aug. 24, 2004 08:48 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Bea:
Can't, hasn't, someone done a 3D computer model of a horse?
-----------
I believe the "Glass Horse" folks have recently come out with a musculoskeletal module, but I haven't seen it yet.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have it. I got it for my birthday. Yep, I'm pretty odd. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif It is pretty good, but would be even better if you could change stuff on it and make it move -- i.e. you could show how the hoof balance puts stress on tendons, ligaments, and other bony structures. As it is, it is basically a 3-d anatomy diagram. Which is good, of course, but I'd still like to be able to put things in motion, especially if you could unbalance the foot and then compare how the rest of the leg reacts -- good start though.

More info here: link to glass horse info (http://www.hoofcare.com/the_glass_horse.html)

And I will ask one tiny question, before retreating to finish reading to catch up, at which point I'll probably have a ton of questions:

Mr. Stovall posted:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> however, in a living horse, absent some catastrophic event, when the flexor muscles are flexed, the DDFT places the sesamoids in compression.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which would explain, on my TB that raced on horrid, horrid long toe, low heel feet, why today he has bony changes mostly on the sesamoids, wouldn't it? If the DDFT is pulling at its attachments and there is too much compression to the sesamoids, due to too much force applied to the DDFT as it works, it will eventually cause trauma/friction that will cause the body to lay down additional bone, thus creating arthritic bony changes, yes?

Which would be why he is able to work without pain or inflammation there only if we keep the stress on that area reduced, yes?

Hmm -- must go back and read more . . .

Libby

Tom Stovall, CJF
Aug. 25, 2004, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by LMH:

[deletia]

Take underrun heels for example-add a wedge and horse is short term sound-but even by your own admissions long term use of wedges will in fact further crush the heels causing more complications...

<span class="ev_code_RED">The addition of a wedge pad or prosthetic material to a bearing surface that has been increased sufficiently in area does not have the effect of crushing the heels, quite to the contrary. In my experience, the procedure can be both expensive and labor intensive, but it enables a horse to be kept in use without ill effect.</span>

SO client has huge competition, you are her new farrier--waddya gonna do? Tell her this will take you one year to repair or put the wedge on and deal with it later?

<span class="ev_code_RED">With respect, your statement is a logical fallacy because it demands a single answer when several are possible. Please see above for another possibilty.</span>

Bensmom
Aug. 25, 2004, 10:43 AM
Ok, I'll start with a question that concerns the "N" word, that my farrier and vet are currently avoiding using, to keep me from threatening to jump off a cliff somewhere http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

slb and the others posting here are very familiar with Ben's feet and our search for balance, but the Reader's Digest version is this: This horse has really crappy, too small QH feet on a 1200 lb body. He's had some bad things done to his feet over time, but I'm working like hell to do the best I can for him.

One thing he is not, and has only been for a short time while I've owned him, on the right front, is long toe/low heel. He had a broken back angle on that foot at one point, but as soon as he strained an annular ligament jumping with that foot unbalanced, we corrected that pronto. The left front is very upright, and we've found out the hard way that lowering the heel is not an option -- it doesn't qualify as a true "club" foot, though many people would call it that, but it doesn't really meet the criteria.

We've had concussion related problems in the right front that I'm sure of, for about 4 months. It may have gone on for longer than that, but previously there was always a bruise or something that would explain ouchiness when jogged on pavement there.

The last three resets he has been noticeably off for about 1.5 hours after the farrier is done nailing on that foot -- this was bothering me, because that really tells me that something isn't right.

So, we shot a new set of films last week, and in comparison to his films from 2000, (which is the last set we did that had navicular views - I've got a bunch of A/P and lateral shots from the last few years) he has some slight worsening of things around his navicular bone, but not bad. The vet did think he was a bit "broken forward" in his A/P angle. My farrier says that he is at 52 degrees, looks balanced, and so this is ridiculous.

He blocks 90% to the heel == it is a slight lameness, but the vet and I know his gaits so well, we can see it enough to block it.

The guess is that we may in fact, be dealing with the "N" word, but since he is currently almost perfectly balanced, and shod in bar shoes now (he wears St. Croix eventers that my farrier has welded a straight bar on -- I had him in eggbars one time for about three weeks - that was rated a no-go, but the straight bars work well), we are unsure about what, if anything, can be changed about the way he is shod in order to help him.

He is also poured with the equi-pak stuff from Vettec, as we find this really helps his problem with thin soles.

He is not a candidate for barefoot -- tried it, didn't work -- in our environment, his feet just wear off and he's really lame.

I also don't do wedge pads (my other horse is in wedged shoes with floated heels, but that is another question altogether) and all indications are that he doesn't need to be wedged anyway, as his x-rays show that his heel ought to be lowered a tad bit, if anything.

The vet has checked to make sure there has been no rotation of the coffin bone by comparing the x-rays. We have injected the coffin joint, and the navicular bursa yesterday. When we went into the coffin joint, the vet was unable to get any joint fluid out to check the viscosity of it, and I'm wondering therefore if the joint is "dry."

I'm most familiar with the navicular case of another horse in my barn who became LT/LH over time, was treated with wedge pads and his heels slid forward and crushed and he got lamer and lamer -- we made changes in his shoeing and got closer to balanced, etc. and began pouring him and he made much improvement.

We've already done those things for my horse, so I can't go there to make our improvements to help him -- do you see damage to the coffin joint due to concussion? In a horse that has thin soles and the concussive effect of trotting on pavement or the pounding on the hoof causes pain, would increase or decrease the concussion by using the poured pads?

I want to do what is best for this horse, and to be able to keep him in work as an event horse. I'd like the two goals to not be mutually exclusive.

FWIW, the upright foot also has a contracted heel, and the right foot did, but recently has been looking much better. He spent three months without the pads and survived, but when we saw on the x-ray that his soles were just as thin as four years ago, we repoured him last week.

Thoughts? Ideas? My treating professionals are a bit at a loss because the "traditional" things you do to help horses that may be Navicular they don't think are applicable to my horse.

Thanks,

Libby (whose two horses are paying for the vet's kid's college education and the farrier's new tractor http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif )

Tom Stovall, CJF
Aug. 25, 2004, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by LMH:

LOL-it appears we have posted at the same time and reached the same conclusion.

I do however have a "follow-up" question or statement...are you saying Bowker just had this idea and has no real case studies to prove it...and this is the basis of his publications?
He never tested his lower the heel idea on any horses?

<span class="ev_code_RED">Here are the URLs to a couple of Bowker's observations. Please read them carefully, then ask yourself whether or not his hypotheses have been confirmed by testing and the results published for peer review. Please understand, that an unconfirmed hypothesis, no matter how well swaddled in high sounding rhetoric and authoritative academic doublespeak, is still just a guess.</span>

<A HREF="http://cvm.msu.edu/news/press/phytrim.htm" TARGET=_blank>[/URL]
[URL=http://cvm.msu.edu/news/press/phytrim.htm]</A>

Tom Stovall, CJF
Aug. 25, 2004, 11:10 AM
Erratum: My apologies, I'm still trying to figure this thing out. The other URL:


If this doesn't work, please cut and paste.

LMH
Aug. 25, 2004, 12:20 PM
I got that link, thank you...

Perhaps we are splitting hairs here-but again not sure if i agree with your conclusion that his hypothesis is uncomfirmed...now I will admit that I am not as well read on the published research as you appear to be and as others, like slb are...I am still quite new at this so you might have to work with me here.

While I agree there are no direct footnotes or references to Study X performed on 24 domestic horses during such and such time frame, I do feel this article is not directed at readers looking for such detail...rather it appears this article is a summary, if you will, simply giving the overall concept of Bowkers studies...there is a reference to "supplementing his studies with observations in the field", as well as the heel first landing being observed in "the majority of sound domestic horses."

So he was obviously looking at some horses somewhere to confirm his hypothesis.

Also it appears his conclusion is indeed nothing new-just old news so old and forgotten that it is considered new again.

If I am not mistaken this is also the principles adhered to by Gene O (Natural Balance shoes, for those reading along) and I do believe he can boast quite a success rate in maintaining sound horses with these principles.

So where is the fault in the logic of this article?

Also if someone, again talking to a 12yo let's say, would please summarize for me the differences in theories between what Tom is talking about and what slb is talking about regarding the function and malfunction of the DDFT and navicular bone...I for one would apprecite a concise summary in one place http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Tom Stovall, CJF
Aug. 25, 2004, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by Bensmom:

[deletia]

He is also poured with the equi-pak stuff from Vettec, as we find this really helps his problem with thin soles.

<span class="ev_code_RED">In my experience, various substances (soft acrylics, urethanes, silicones, etc.) that offer the sensitive sole added protection from environmental pressure can be of value in the mechanical palliation/treatment of the symptoms associated with the "N" word, probably because they play a role in the reduction of concussion to the coffin joint, as well as affording protection. In my experience, they are particularly effective when a major predisposing factor is upright conformation, especially if/when the horse has been diagnosed with pedal osteitis.</span>

[...]

Thoughts? Ideas? My treating professionals are a bit at a loss because the "traditional" things you do to help horses that may be Navicular they don't think are applicable to my horse.

<span class="ev_code_RED">Since your horse is responding favorably to the poured pads, you might ask your farrier and vet about using poured pads in conjunction with a pair of aluminum bars. The additional mass without added weight may be beneficial in terms of protection.</span>

Bensmom
Aug. 25, 2004, 02:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Since your horse is responding favorably to the poured pads, you might ask your farrier and vet about using poured pads in conjunction with a pair of aluminum bars. The additional mass without added weight may be beneficial in terms of protection. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a very interesting suggestion, as we have been discussing this just yesterday. I was in one of the farrier supply shops in Ocala this weekend, and the enormous variety of shoes available is truly mind-boggling. He did not do well earlier this year when he was briefly in eggbars, though admittedly, that was without his pads. I really like the eventer shoe, and I know that St. Croix makes them in aluminum, but not in a straight bar configuration. What shoe would you suggest that would be able to be drilled and tapped, would have more grip than plain shoes and is made in a straight bar configuration?

I don't ask much, do I? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif I spent a great deal of time earlier this afternoon on the phone with the vet, and many of the factors point to coffin joint problems, so reducing concussion, which I understand a lighter shoe can help with, could be the one important shoeing change we could make. I also was told recently that an aluminum shoe can be a good choice for a horse with thin walls, also due to the lighter weight.

And not to be too much more difficult, but in the spirit of discussion, do I remember correctly that somewhere someone has claimed that aluminum shoes are detrimental to horses with navicular problems? Was this research or an unsupported theory?

Thanks a million for this discussion -- I've learned a good bit too.

Libby

LMH
Aug. 25, 2004, 02:36 PM
Libby-question for you...and trust me I won't even TRY to offer advice on this one-just curious.

You mention he is not right immediately after shoeing-on both front feet, the higher one only, or the lower one only.

Also if the higher foot actually appears broken forward in the xrays, then that is two points for a heel that is too high( visual high heel +xray confirming)...why would the farrier then not be inclined to lower it?

You mention he is 52deg on that foot-did previous xrays show this number to align him properly or is this the farriers idea of the correct number?

Bensmom
Aug. 25, 2004, 03:42 PM
LMH -- He is only lame on the right front right after shoeing, and this only started since we quit pouring him in April. He has gone April, May, June, July, August, so five months total, without the equi-pak and the last three shoeings for sure, he's been lame following nailing.

He's always jerked that foot when the nails are hammered in, but usually is ok as soon as the farrier is done. The horse trader I bought him from as a 3 year old was whacking his feet off, chopping off the heels and popping keg shoes on -- we've always assumed he was quicking him on a regular basis and he's anticipated pain ever since.

On the "club foot" he is fine. The "clubby" foot is NOT broken forward actually -- in fact, that is one reason we don't think it qualifies as a true "club" foot. The lower heeled foot now x-rays with a slightly forward axis. It was broken back the last time. That is the foot that is at 52 degrees, which the farrier just happened to note when he checked it after hearing the vet say broken forward -- he has tried to find an angle that works for this particular horse, so he can check himself as he goes through the year without having to shoot x-rays. He isn't trying to get him to a set point -- does that make sense?

Visually, this foot appears balanced. And, to the farrier's credit, the x-ray shows that the broken forward axis is not much -- I haven't measured it myself, but the vet says it is there.

The vet and I are wondering if the combination of taking away the poured pads, plus the slightly forward axis of the foot, combined to increase concussion on the foot, causing the coffin joint to become inflamed and start the process of the breakdown of the joint fluid. So on and so forth, with the inflammation of the heel bulbs and heel tissues being secondary to that.

We know that during the time he was a tad bit long toe/low heel on that foot, that it caused undue strain on the tendons and ligaments, as he strained the annular ligament that goes around the back of the ankle and did 60 days stall rest and rehab, during which time we checked the feet and balanced the foot. So, the additional "roughness" that is around the edges of the navicular bone may have developed around the same time and now that that problem is corrected, further deterioration may have been stopped.

I wish there was a way to take x-rays every reset so we knew exactly what happened when! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

It may be my imagination, but he seems to be moving a bit more comfortably since the joint injection -- he's in a stall until Saturday morning, but even going out to hand graze he appears more comfortable.

As arthritic changes are irreversible, it is pretty important to me that we do the best we can for him and prevent what we can -- he is truly only barelybarelybarely lame. I mean, most people that aren't obsessive wouldn't have noticed it yet http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif We just happen to have a level asphalt road that I jog them for soundness on -- on the dirt/grass he jogs 100% sound. Go figure. I'd just rather fix it now, than once he is unrepairable.

Thanks for the input!

Libby

Tom Stovall, CJF
Aug. 25, 2004, 04:39 PM
[Deletia in places, no attribute]

This is a very interesting suggestion, as we have been discussing this just yesterday. I was in one of the farrier supply shops in Ocala this weekend, and the enormous variety of shoes available is truly mind-boggling. He did not do well earlier this year when he was briefly in eggbars, though admittedly, that was without his pads. I really like the eventer shoe, and I know that St. Croix makes them in aluminum, but not in a straight bar configuration. What shoe would you suggest that would be able to be drilled and tapped, would have more grip than plain shoes and is made in a straight bar configuration?

<span class="ev_code_RED">I believe some outfit makes/made cast aluminum bar shoes, but for me, the easiest way to get any kind of aluminum bar is to weld it up myself. (I'd be mortified if anyone ever accused me of buying a bar shoe, I've been railing about the lack of forge skills in the younger generation for more'n 20 years.)</span>

<span class="ev_code_RED">IMO, Eventers don't have enough mass, so I usually weld up my Al bars using Thorobred Grand Champions and 3/8" x 1" bar stock. The shoe is slightly wedged, but the wedge is easily hammered out if need be. The GC has a creased nail pattern, a steel wear plate at the toe, and enough mass to accept drilling and tapping for screw-ins. It comes unpunched, so the nail holes can be drilled in the swedge where they're need. Unlike some Al shoes, they don't get soft when they're welded up.</span>

I don't ask much, do I? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif I spent a great deal of time earlier this afternoon on the phone with the vet, and many of the factors point to coffin joint problems, so reducing concussion, which I understand a lighter shoe can help with, could be the one important shoeing change we could make. I also was told recently that an aluminum shoe can be a good choice for a horse with thin walls, also due to the lighter weight.

And not to be too much more difficult, but in the spirit of discussion, do I remember correctly that somewhere someone has claimed that aluminum shoes are detrimental to horses with navicular problems? Was this research or an unsupported theory?

<span class="ev_code_RED">I've heard aluminum shoes blamed for everything from farrier halitosis to Garfield's assassination, but if any of that stuff were true, every flat racer and half the hunters in this country would be running on stumps instead of feet.</span>

<span class="ev_code_RED">Just an odd bit of brain flatulence, but if your horse is diagnosed with DIJ problems and your vet wants to support the joint mechanically, then an aluminum pressure (aka, "heart") bar with general (not apexal) pressure might be beneficial. It takes a brave farrier to nail a pressure bar on a horse diagnosed with "N" word syndrome because artificial frog pressure is usually contraindicated, but the shoe has been unarguably beneficial to some horses.</span>

LMH
Aug. 25, 2004, 04:42 PM
Libby I can totally relate to the obsessive lame alert http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

As I said, I am FAR from qualified to make any comments and wasn't asking to make any judgments but it certainly sounds like you are doing the best you can http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif! How frustrating it all must be...I am sure you feel like you get a grip on one problem or one foot and the rest go pow...http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

That also makes perfect sense that the farrier wants "an angle" that matches him when he is aligned base on xrays when he is comfortable-then yes he would have something to shoot for.

Thank you for explaining all that to me.

Bensmom
Aug. 25, 2004, 04:49 PM
Thanks so much for your suggestions -- that is exactly the sort of info I was looking for -- my farrier is the only one in our area that has a welder on his rig, but I don't know if he welds aluminum -- that is something I will pester him about right away.

Since we don't really have a diagnosis of the "N" word, the heart type bar shoe might be helpful -- we are thinking that he has more of a DIJ problem, with potentially sore heels from abnormally loading heels to compensate for the sore DIJ -- it is an idea, anyway. The vet mentioned that sometimes when you see no joint fluid once the hub goes into the joint, the joint may have moved from the overproduction of fluid stress stage, to the not enough fluid stage, which would explain the increase in his discomfort.

At any rate, I'd like to make him as comfortable as possible, and at the same time make sure I'm not running around in blinders, just because I don't want to hear that he has "Navicular" -- at this point, whatever you call it, I would like to stop it from getting any worse http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Oh, and LMH -- I was reading the vet's report from the 2002 hoof balancing with x-rays and he wanted to get the right fore to 52-53 degrees. Which is where we are and *now* he says that that is "broken forward" -- silly vet, doesn't know *what* he wants http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif It just goes to show you that nothing on these beasts is ever static, which is why I really monitor them like I do -- and why I ended up without the funds to take that manure spreader off your hands! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif I've learned that the downside to catching every little problem is that it can be expensive http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But, I'd rather do it that way -- I can keep pushing the wheelbarrow for a while! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Thanks for the suggestions!

Libby

Lookout
Aug. 25, 2004, 05:19 PM
In terms of numbers how do you define success? You laughed at slb's statistics of success as impossible. And you say you are a fan of what works. How often does it have to work to be considered a success? Half the time? More, less?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall, CJF:
<span class="ev_code_RED">Therein lies the difference between you and I and our approach to farriery. I define "success" as the application of whatever mechanical protocols will enable the horse to be both pain free and in use without deleterious effect.</span> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lookout
Aug. 25, 2004, 05:21 PM
I know you're not talking to me, but I've often wondered what in Bowker's work constituted "research".

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LMH:
LOL-it appears we have posted at the same time and reached the same conclusion.

I do however have a "follow-up" question or statement...are you saying Bowker just had this idea and has no real case studies to prove it...and this is the basis of his publications?
He never tested his lower the heel idea on any horses? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tom Stovall, CJF
Aug. 25, 2004, 06:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lookout:
In terms of numbers how do you define success? You laughed at slb's statistics of success as impossible. And you say you are a fan of what works. How often does it have to work to be considered a success? Half the time? More, less?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall, CJF:
<span class="ev_code_RED">Therein lies the difference between you and I and our approach to farriery. I define "success" as the application of whatever mechanical protocols will enable the horse to be both pain free and in use without deleterious effect.</span> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In terms of numbers, I measure success (see above) one horse at a time and I've gotten it done often enough to make the doing of it worthwhile. To reiterate, if somebody pulls a bar shoe off one of one of my horses, performance is going to suffer. Every time.

Anybody can turn horses diagnosed with navicular syndrome out in an abrasive environment and claim a high percentage of "success" - but the percentages dip precipitously when those horses come out of the pasture and go back into training.

LMH
Aug. 26, 2004, 05:42 AM
Tom did you get tired of playing with me? I thought I had some good questions for you http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I am also a little fuzzy on a point-if someone pulls a bar shoe off your horse, his performance will suffer....so in essence, the bar shoe is just masking the pain isn't it?

A short term "fix" to allow horses to show, compete.

However, what IF the "newer" methods of treating "N" pain offered pain free performance without the fix---but it took longer...have you considered that option?

I guess I am just curious why you reject the idea of lowering heels to assist in relieving heel pain, when there are others that are having success with this method?

Ghazzu
Aug. 26, 2004, 07:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LMH:
I am also a little fuzzy on a point-if someone pulls a bar shoe off your horse, his performance will suffer....so in essence, the bar shoe is just masking the pain isn't it?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I rather think the bar shoe is alleviating the pain. I'd be interested to see how they have an analgesic effect.

Tom Stovall, CJF
Aug. 26, 2004, 07:58 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by LMH:
Tom did you get tired of playing with me? I thought I had some good questions for you http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I am also a little fuzzy on a point-if someone pulls a bar shoe off your horse, his performance will suffer....so in essence, the bar shoe is just masking the pain isn't it?

<span class="ev_code_RED">No ma'am, a "mask" would be some means - chemical or mechanical - of interfering with the transmission of nervous impulses. A bar shoe does not affect the transmission of nervous impulses, it affects the cause of the pain. To illustrate: Consider the pain attendant to a badly sheared heel and the near instantaneous relief on application of a bar shoe. The bar shoe does not mask the pain, it stops the movement of the affected structures that are causing the pain.</span>

A short term "fix" to allow horses to show, compete.

<span class="ev_code_RED">It has not been demonstrated that any
correctly applied mechanical "fix" is inherently short term; in my experience, horses have died of old age while wearing needed bar shoes. </span>

However, what IF the "newer" methods of treating "N" pain offered pain free performance without the fix---but it took longer...have you considered that option?

<span class="ev_code_RED">Your argument is specious: Your premise has not been demonstrated existent and demands an answer based on conjecture.</span>

I guess I am just curious why you reject the idea of lowering heels to assist in relieving heel pain, when there are others that are having success with this method?

<span class="ev_code_RED">Who exactly is having "success" by whacking off the heels of horses diagnosed with navicular syndrome? Where are the tests published confirming the hypothesis? Where is the replication? The usual order of business is to observe a phenomenon, formulate a hypothesis (SWAG), confirm the hypothesis by testing, and the publication of the results in a discipline specific journal for peer review so that anyone with an interest can test the hypothesis and replicate the results. It's a long way from academia to the show ring, but there are rules in both places - and touting an unconfirmed hypothesis is analogous to rapping a jumper in the practice ring - it ain't kosher.</span>

<span class="ev_code_RED">Frog pressure in NS horses is contraindicated in every text from Lungwitz to Stashak and its immediate, deleterious, effect is readily demonstrable. I guess it's a case of, "Who am I going to believe: the 'research', or my lying eyes?"</span>

Bensmom
Aug. 26, 2004, 09:59 AM
Since I don't understand in any way how lowering the heel could ever help a NS horse and I will admit that I haven't read any of the literature that suggests it will, my question isn't directed at that part of the discussion but I wondered about this:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Frog pressure in NS horses is contraindicated in every text from Lungwitz to Stashak and its immediate, deleterious, effect is readily demonstrable. I guess it's a case of, "Who am I going to believe: the 'research', or my lying eyes?" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you don't want any frog pressure in a NS horse, then why does it help to use the equi-pak poured pads in one? We've got one horse that is actually diagnosed with NS in my barn that has been poured since the diagnosis was made and I've seen farriers use it to make these horses more comfortable.

It would seem, per the statement above, to be the absolute wrong thing to do though, since it loads the sole and frog with pressure, though the pressure is evenly distributed.

Thanks,

Libby

Lookout
Aug. 26, 2004, 10:18 AM
Percentages?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall, CJF:
In terms of numbers, I measure success (see above) one horse at a time and I've gotten it done often enough to make the doing of it worthwhile. To reiterate, if somebody pulls a bar shoe off one of one of my horses, performance is going to suffer. Every time.
. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lookout
Aug. 26, 2004, 10:20 AM
I think they measure them one horse at a time.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall, CJF:
Who exactly is having "success" by whacking off the heels of horses diagnosed with navicular syndrome? Where are the tests published confirming the hypothesis? Where is the replication? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMH
Aug. 26, 2004, 11:57 AM
I think we need to be a little more specific and correct in terminology here-I don't think anyone suggested "whacking off the heels" of a NS horse...what I do think has been suggested here and supported by Gene Ovnicek of Natural Balance is returning the foot to a balanced state---achieved by lowering the heels over time(not whacking) and addressing the point of breakover, ultimately to achieve heel first landing.

Am I mistaken that this is the theory promoted by Gene? I will admit I could be, but I thought this was, at least in general terms, the theory of Natural Balance...

If I am correct in my understanding of Gene's theory then there is someone quite successful in treating NS horses in this fashion.

chitowncd
Aug. 26, 2004, 12:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chitowncd:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If you don't want any frog pressure in a NS horse, then why does it help to use the equi-pak poured pads in one? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think what Tom means by frog pressure is a heart bar. That's mechanical pressure. It's been a while, but IIRC, a heart bar is used on foundered horses to shift the horse's turnover/weighting(?) over the P3, or bony column, to remove pressure from the rotated coffin bone. So if you have a horse with navicular, a heart bar will do no good since the navicular bone lies in the general P3 area.

I reserve the right for my memory to be off. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif It's been a while since I've dealt with both a foundered horse (albeit very mildly) and a navicular one. The navicular horse was a very upright critter and had a one-up one-down conformation in the front. If the foot was trimmed to the slightest nth of a degree off, he'd still limp even in eggbars.

A pour in pad is there to absorb shock. In an NS horse, it's a Good Thing to reduce shock. It can't apply enough pressure by its' own nature to have any effect. The horse would need a heart bar or something like it on top of the pad, to apply direct pressure every time the horse took a step. Obviously, that's Not a Good Idea.

Welcome, Senor Tomas! You may now smack me about if all those years of reading your posts haven't sunk in.

Michele <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tom Stovall, CJF
Aug. 26, 2004, 04:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LMH:
I think we need to be a little more specific and correct in terminology here-I don't think anyone suggested "whacking off the heels" of a NS horse...what I do think has been suggested here and supported by Gene Ovnicek of Natural Balance is returning the foot to a balanced state---achieved by lowering the heels over time(not whacking) and addressing the point of breakover, ultimately to achieve heel first landing.

Am I mistaken that this is the theory promoted by Gene? ill admit I could be, but I thought this was, at least in general terms, the theory of Natural Balance...

If I am correct in my understanding of Gene's theory then there is someone quite successful in treating NS horses in this fashion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_RED">Relative to claims of, "Returning the foot to a balanced state" and similar stuff, I think it's incumbent on the claimant to first demonstrate the presence of inherent imbalance in domestic feet. It hasn't happened.</span>

<span class="ev_code_RED">To my knowledge, neither Ovnicek's nor Bowker's claims have ever been scientifically tested - the claimed efficacy of their protocols are based strictly on observations and testimonials of the faithful, not those troublesome double blinds and control groups.</span>

<span class="ev_code_RED">In terms of demonstrating efficacy, it's not a matter of "If you pull the bar shoe off one of my runners, he's going to back up;" instead, it's a matter of "You gotta believe.</span>

<span class="ev_code_RED">I don't.</span>.

<span class="ev_code_RED">On his website*, Ovnicek questions the advisability of making efficiency a primary criterion of trimming/shoeing:</span>

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">"Perhaps we should ask ourselves a couple of questions. Does a domestic hoof need to be efficient?..."</span>

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">"And how important is efficient function when considering the added demands of rider weight, tack and discipline? And if 'form to efficient function' is the goal, now that we have been provided with more of the answers as to what forces help shape feral horse function
and efficiency, can we use some of that information to help achieve efficient function in domestic hooves? Some food for thought..."</span>

<span class="ev_code_RED">As advertised, the foot of a horse at liberty in an abrasive environment is a flawed model for horses in use in varied environments because a horse at liberty neither carries weight nor engages in forced exercise. When one places 15% or more of the horse's body weight just aft of the horse's withers and requires the beast work for a living, then efficiency in the transference of muscle action to motion becomes the most important criterion by which trimming/shoeing can be judged. More food for thought.</span>

*http://www.hopeforsoundness.com

Melelio
Aug. 26, 2004, 05:08 PM
Som, Tom, are you saying because Ovnicek and Bowker have not done the traditional study to your satisfaction, and published it in a vet magazine, even though he has the support from Vet schools, that they are WRONG?

Do you know that they are wrong? Have you really looked at their study with a clearly open mind? I found it quite stimulating reading, and a very viable possibility, seeing as how this study of horse hoof mechanism has really come to the forefront in the last few years.

I do hope that all practitioners of any kind, human and animals, will keep their minds wide open to the possibilities.

There's a reason I had a hard time finding an endocrinologist in a big town like Wash DC....the majority of them were so steeped in their traditional way of thinking that I knew I would never be properly treated. I was lucky enough to find a doctor who also embraced alternative and holisitic medicines, and had kept up on her MD studies of her specialty as well. I think that may be a rarity today, as far as the ego factor mentioned earlier goes. Who knows for sure?

cyberbay
Aug. 26, 2004, 05:09 PM
GUESS WHAT??

cyberbay
Aug. 26, 2004, 05:21 PM
GUESS WHAT?? My horse is cured!! He's been reading these posts over my shoulder, and he said that the back 'n' forth was better than any bute, any bar shoe, any Adequan ever could be and has decided that, so far, everybody's help is the best medicine. (And he hopes he never has to go barefoot b/c his feet are so s----- that they would crumble to dust in the first 8 minutes of 'losing' them, and, "that would hurt more than any of this navicular stuff!")

OK, tongue in cheek aside ... It's really made him feel great to know about all the people out there who have responded to help him feel his best. As his 'mother,' I, too, have found all of this input to be hugely edifying and that the COTH is the place to turn. This thread has all been printed out, I've been looking up the suggested articles, and it's been a HUGE help from everyone.

cyberbay
Aug. 26, 2004, 05:23 PM
Actually, he's not 'cured,' but knockonwood, he's had a good couple of weeks and feels quite happy. He's in bar shoes, degree pads, and on isox and Adequan...

Tom Stovall, CJF
Aug. 26, 2004, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by Melelio:

Som, Tom, are you saying because Ovnicek and Bowker have not done the traditional study to your satisfaction, and published it in a vet magazine, even though he has the support from Vet schools, that they are WRONG?

<span class="ev_code_RED">I don't genuflect in the direction of academia; I don't give much credence to folks engaged in research who fail to follow the basic tenets of the scientific method.</span>

Do you know that they are wrong?...

<span class="ev_code_RED">The demonstration of any claim is the province of the claimant, not the skeptic.</span>

Have you really looked at their study with a clearly open mind?...

<span class="ev_code_RED">I haven't seen any "study" done by either Bowker or Ovnicek. What I have seen are observations in which unsubstantiated opinions and meaningless anecdotes were substituted for data and unconfirmed hypotheses were accepted by some members of the farrier and veterinary community as though critical thinking was a mortal sin.</span>

I found it quite stimulating reading, and a very viable possibility, seeing as how this study of horse hoof mechanism has really come to the forefront in the last few years...

<span class="ev_code_RED">When I want "stimulating reading" I read James Lee Burke's Robicheaux novels; when I want facts related to farriery, I peruse the texts and journals with a critical eye. Critical thinking is the fuel of the peer review process; without it, the scientific method is intellectually bankrupt.</span>

I do hope that all practitioners of any kind, human and animals, will keep their minds wide open to the possibilities.

<span class="ev_code_RED">Having an open mind and the acceptance of unconfirmed hypotheses are poles apart; the former is indicative of a desire to learn; the latter, indicative of terminal gullibility.</span>

LMH
Aug. 26, 2004, 07:49 PM
Perhaps this is too simple an analogy but wasn't the fact the earth is round an uncomfirmed hypothesis at some point http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Tom Stovall, CJF
Aug. 26, 2004, 08:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LMH:
Perhaps this is too simple an analogy but wasn't the fact the earth is round an unconfirmed hypothesis at some point http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_RED">IIRC, a hypothesis claiming the world was flat was tested and disproved. And, as I remember, some fellow named Galileo got into a bit of trouble with the inquisitors for taking the somewhat heretical stance that the earth was not the center of the universe when all the anecdotes and observations of the day claimed it was.</span>

LaraLeigh
Aug. 26, 2004, 08:47 PM
I have not been able to read all the way through this but I have trimmed my horses for years and ridden to A levels and now do mostly dressage - compete- and my horses are barefoot. I am not going to criticize shoers or shoeing. I have one rescue horse with front shoes on right now - he came in with all 4 shoes and his feet are very soft. I can't keep him - we have to find a home for him - he is at an EQ center looking for a home. The farrier I use on him I LOVE dearly and he is terrific. And he actually helps trim some of my horses at home because I do not have the back for it.

From everything I have read about navicular and experienced (which I work with hundreds of rescue TBs and I see a lot of cases - also we have had several in the family - AND two of my close friends had horses with navicular).

Firstly - 'navicular' is a bone and in layman's terms - a horse gets navicular pain when a lack of blood flow within the area make the bone get spiney teeth on them - this is a very layman's description - but it is sometimes the best way to explain it. For years past, it was believed this was a disease - something a horse has perhaps in his genes. In the years recent, they separated it between Navicular Disease and Navicular Syndrome. The Syndrome is when the conditions are right for the condition to occur. The conditions might be poor shoeing - shoeing too tightly and restricting blood flow. Arguementably, some believe that shoeing in general can cause the conditions (although we know that not all shod horses get navicular pain.... so that can't be true - and I am a barefooter). However, I do think that a lot of horses that have the pain got it from shoeing - perhaps because other factors like use and conformation also play into it.

That said - I have a few friends with horses that developed navicular pain before their horses were 5 and never been shod. Ironically, they were ALL color-bred Quarter Horses, 2 paints and a palomino. All three were huge boned and over 16 hands. The third one - when I saw her - I knew she woudl get the pain. She just looked conformationally exactly like the first two. I do not think with them it was a DISEASE but I certainly think their big bodies and their tiny legs contributed to it.

Anyways - I think also it has to do with use - a horse in shoes used as a jumper and to do things that cause a lot of concussion - those horses I see get the pain in their teens. When I grew up we pulled the shoes on horses in the winter - let their feet grow out and then shod through show season. None of us ever encountered navicular pain.

Anyways - the original thread was - is there hope? I hate to give false hope but there is a lot out there by way of research lately - drugs to try to help break down those 'teeth' - methods to stimulate the blood flow to try to get the condition to reverse - which some people scoff at but I have seen it happen - usually not in cases that have gone as far as yours though. Usually in horses with a little pain and a certain degree of change to get worried - and then with different therapies - like, yes, barefooting - the condition did reverse.

My friend who is a shoer - he admits that bar shoes and the like - that is one of the best ways shoeing can help a horse - it helps to relieve pain - but if a horse is having the problem to begin with because he needs to go barefoot and let his feet spread and breathe and pump more blood into it - the condition will get worse - the shoeing will just help control the pain for a short while and then you find yourself where you are - where the shoeing that way doesn't help.

I think it is a personal decision what you do. I think you are looking closer at a better chance at a remedy or at least a way to get him better - by doing barefoot therapy. That is my personal opinion.

But I am not blaming shoeing as the reason for navicular pain - if that were true - most horses would have it. I think there are loads of conditions that play into it - a horse that works hard - jumping, reining, whatever. A horse that works on hard ground a lot. A horse that is physically conformated to be predisposed to it under just a few circumstances. A horse shod and kept in too small of shoes. A horse perhaps always shod every day of his life. A horse where his owner keeps forgetting her checkbook so he goes 10-12 weeks between shoeing on a regular basis....

I think that the pain comes from growth on the navicular bone that breaks into soft tissue and causes pain. Those growths are made by a lack of blood flow and health within the foot. I just wrote a bunch of conditions that can contribute. I think to heal it - if it is possible - is to look at the way the horse is worked and kept and try to eliminate the condition that is causing it. That is why I advocate at least TRYING barefoot therapy. But then, the reason I say it has to be a personal decision is - the horse will go through a period of discomfort. The bar shoes do take weight off the spot where they get pain when stepping there. Some people say - my horse is too old and doesn't do anything but mosey so I won't put him through the transition period to barefoot therapy.... I can understand that.

And that said - the three horses I know that had it before age 5 and never shod (well one had been shod) - they went through barefoot therapy and it did not help them - their bodies were too damn big for their legs and I think their conformation just wronged them.

Two of these were mares and they went to the breeding shed. Oh my word.

LMH
Aug. 27, 2004, 05:26 AM
But isn't that my point Tom? Someone had an idea and how was it "tested"---a guy sailed a ship out yonder and there ya go....isn't that in essence (like I said maybe not the perfect analogy but it was after a beer http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) was Gene and Bowker are doing with each horse they use the theory on with success?

Again with Galileo---he had a theory against the "norm" (something like lowering heels for NS horses)...got criticized for it (kinda like the "newer methods do") and proved the old fogies wrong (like only time will or will not do).

The fact is you base your ideas on old "proven scientific methods"---but that fact also remains that ideas or theories going against tried and true always face rejection and ridicule...until accepted http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. The list of scienitic ideas that were accepted for years, only to one day be rejected is I am sure as long as new notions that proved false...so only time will tell I suppose.

Tom Stovall, CJF
Aug. 27, 2004, 06:41 AM
Originally posted by LMH:

[deletia]

The fact is you base your ideas on old "proven scientific methods"---

<span class="ev_code_RED">Not even close. A hypothesis (SWAG) can never be "proven", it can only be confirmed or disproved. A hypothesis must be capable of disproof and a single instance of disproof requires modification or rejection of the hypothesis. Remember cold fusion?</span>

but that fact also remains that ideas or theories going against tried and true always face rejection and ridicule...until accepted http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

<span class="ev_code_RED">Would that be like the so-called "discovery" of a callus between the apex of the frog and the white line in feral horses that was claimed to be a part of horses' genotype and not a function of horses' environment - until somebody had the temerity to point out the allegedly genotypic structure was not present in neonatal horn?</span>

The list of scienitic ideas that were accepted for years, only to one day be rejected is I am sure as long as new notions that proved false...so only time will tell I suppose.

<span class="ev_code_RED">Testing, not time, will tell definitively. Meanwhile, no matter how fervent one's belief in the latest trendy hypotheses, when one pulls the bar shoes off a horse that needs them, the horse hurts.</span>

LMH
Aug. 27, 2004, 06:53 AM
Well Tom, I must say I have enjoyed our back and forth-but I do think we have said what needs to be said for the purpose of this thread...time and testing.

Hoped you enjoyed it as well.

Melelio
Aug. 27, 2004, 06:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Tom: when one pulls the bar shoes off a horse that needs them, the horse hurts. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, and when a human patient with smashed and shattered ribs comes into the hospital and is simply given morphine for the pain, he feels better, too. Should we send him home with a lifetime supply of morphine, and not fix the underlying problems?

You certainly are closed-minded, that's been proven here in our own personal study. You enjoy band-aiding your clients' horses. I think I'll bow out of this conversation as I don't think anything anyone says to you will satisfy you, unless we say "yessir yessir three bags full". And I'm not one to bow low, ask my DH http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif

slb and LMH, let's go have a nice frothy cold one, and pop some popcorn, sit back on the porch swing and watch.... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Tom Stovall, CJF
Aug. 27, 2004, 08:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Melelio:
[QUOTE] Tom: when one pulls the bar shoes off a horse that needs them, the horse hurts. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, and when a human patient with smashed and shattered ribs comes into the hospital and is simply given morphine for the pain, he feels better, too. Should we send him home with a lifetime supply of morphine, and not fix the underlying problems?

<span class="ev_code_RED">You are obviously confused about the dynamics of palliation: A bar shoe does not interfere with the transmission of nervous impulses; instead, it mechanically addresses the source of the pain. If you wish to condemn a mechanical procedure, please do so on the basis of reality, not personal conjecture.</span>

You certainly are closed-minded, that's been proven here in our own personal study. You enjoy band-aiding your clients' horses.

<span class="ev_code_RED">I "enjoy" enabling horses to do whatever they do without pain or ill effect - if that's a Bad Thing, I'm guilty as charged.</span>

I think I'll bow out of this conversation as I don't think anything anyone says to you will satisfy you, unless we say "yessir yessir three bags full". And I'm not one to bow low, ask my DH http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif

<span class="ev_code_RED">Riding off into the sunset while muttering ad hominems over one's shoulder is the typical behavior of someone with their mind made up who doesn't want to be bothered with facts. Que la vaya bien.</span>

cyberbay
Aug. 27, 2004, 09:26 AM
Most likely, this horse will try barefoot if it comes to that, but it means coming out of work for this approach. Also, he has weak hoof walls, though pretty good hoof growth, so the transition to b'foot will be fraught, beyond just the normal "oooh, I think they forgot my shoes ..." -- the nature of my post was more tongue in cheek, in an attempt to, um, lighten the mood (!) and remember the original purpose! [Although the information has been great.] Going barefoot may help a lot of this, though.

The point is that I am looking for information about managing navicular discomfort while keeping the horse in work, or, put another way, managing the discomfort so that the horse can remain in work. Any horse can be turned away while trying remedies--and as noted above, this will most likely be the next turn if it comes to that; as well, as I didn't mention in the initial post, this horse is high/low in front--born with a club foot and a platter in the other. The clubby is the one not so great at the moment.

slb
Aug. 27, 2004, 10:33 AM
Cyberbay...Did you actually see your horse born this way? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I am curious as I have never heard of this. In some schools of thought it is considered that congenital club foot would be found on two feet, either fronts or backs. However, from my experience one up, one down is a creation of poor trimming or lack of trimming.

Melelio
Aug. 27, 2004, 10:46 AM
Tom, no...actually, I don't get any joy out of beating my head against concrete, nor really watching others do so. Also, you don't seem to be very personable, in how you like to put others down with your words. That's a real shame. I hope your clients will stick with you a long time, because you won't get more clients with that type of personality. Or do you just save that for us special folks?

&lt;Riding off obliviously ignorant into the sunset, heading for the cliff Tom told me was there, but dang, I just didn't listen....&gt; http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

Lookout
Aug. 27, 2004, 12:39 PM
Your claim that it "mechanically" addresses the source of the pain is equally as much a personal conjecture.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tom Stovall, CJF:
<span class="ev_code_RED">You are obviously confused about the dynamics of palliation: A bar shoe does not interfere with the transmission of nervous impulses; instead, it mechanically addresses the source of the pain. If you wish to condemn a mechanical procedure, please do so on the basis of reality, not personal conjecture.</span>

Lookout
Aug. 27, 2004, 12:43 PM
Don't you think your horse would be better off if you let him heal without asking him to work during his rehabilitation/recovery? How can stressing him during recovery allow that recovery to happen? If something is "allowing" him to remain in work while injured, you have to ask yourself what that correction is really doing.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cyberbay:
The point is that I am looking for information about managing navicular discomfort while keeping the horse in work, or, put another way, managing the discomfort so that the horse can remain in work. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tom Stovall, CJF
Aug. 27, 2004, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by Lookout:
Your claim that it "mechanically" addresses the source of the pain is equally as much a personal conjecture.

<span class="ev_code_RED">Unless you believe there's some sort of farrier conspiracy in which we ne'er-do-wells are secretly performing posterior digital neurectomies or blocks in public without benefit of veterinary imprimatur while simultaneously applying various devices that can only be considered mechanical in nature - various types of shoes and pads - any palliation of symptoms attendant to our tender ministrations would have to be mechanical in nature.</span>

<span class="ev_code_RED">Put another way, because the presence of pain in the heel area is one of the primary symptoms by which veterinarians diagnose NS, it follows that any procedure that effectively palliates the symptoms - and does not involve drugs or surgery - must be mechanical.</span>

<span class="ev_code_RED">One realizes reality can be a hard pill to swallow, but it's none the less reality.</span>

LMH
Aug. 27, 2004, 07:32 PM
Tom-while you are here...why don't you drop by this thread and do a little good for someone:

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=6656094911&f=5206053911&m=572208273

She is having some foot questions and perhaps we could all learn from a professional in the field commenting on the newly shod feet.

cyberbay
Aug. 27, 2004, 08:21 PM
To answer SLB--no, I didn't witness the foaling, and was told by the owner (complicated; I don't own the horse but have been his 'person' on all levels for several years now) that that was how he came out. That was sort of the end of the discussion about his foot at that time. I hooked back up with the horse about 5 years later.

To answer Lookout -- the point of my original query was to discover if anything existed out there in the world of navicular recovery that both ameliorated/improved/cured the condition while the horse could remain in work. It was an attempt to seek information on the latest, the greatest, and the off-label. As I'd said earlier, taking him off-line to see if some approaches work is a snap--I was trying to seek improvement while keeping him in work.

Is that an Ok question by you?

There are a number of reasons why this horse should stay in work, reasons that are known to me, the horse, and the other people who care about him and know him best.

Plenty of posts here have been written in a way that invite further discussion and don't look to police people for crimes that aren't being committed. A suggestion: if you find you are inferring things in a post, maybe seeking clarification would be a productive first thing to do.

Remember, the horse is sound. Have I finished the search for a better well-being? No (obviously, since I'm staying up late on this board). Are there definitive-for-all-horses ways to treat a NS horse? No. Has this been the most visited and weighed-in thread on COTH's Horse Care board in recent weeks? Yes.

Lookout
Aug. 27, 2004, 08:22 PM
And they also diagnose it by blocking the foot - "removing" the pain. Where is this distinction you're seeing between analgesic and mechanical?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall, CJF:
<span class="ev_code_RED">Put another way, because the presence of pain in the heel area is one of the primary symptoms by which veterinarians diagnose NS, it follows that any procedure that effectively palliates the symptoms - and does not involve drugs or surgery - must be mechanical.</span>

<span class="ev_code_RED">One realizes reality can be a hard pill to swallow, but it's none the less reality.</span> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tom Stovall, CJF
Aug. 27, 2004, 09:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lookout:
And they also diagnose it by blocking the foot - "removing" the pain. Where is this distinction you're seeing between analgesic and mechanical?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pay careful attention, there may be a quiz: An analgesic affects the ability of the horse to feel pain without causing unconsciousness - analgesia does not affect the cause of pain, it affects the neurotransmission or reception of nervous impulses.

OTOH, mechanical palliation affects the cause of pain, it cannot affect either the neurotransmission of nervous impulses or their reception.

For example, if a horse has a nail stick in its frog, a bar shoe forged with a frog cradle is an extremely effective means of keeping the environment from placing direct pressure on the affected area because there's steel between the injury and the ground.

Such a horse can feel pain if it occurs, but no pain occurs at the wound site because of the mechanical barrier. Entiendes?