Olympic Trials, day 2

[JEP]

Hey guys, the results are up on the USEF site!

Trial 2 and combined standings (http://www.usef.org/olympics/2004/pdfs/DelMarShowJumpingTrial2.pdf)

Norman, Beezie (authentic), and Mclain (sapphire) are all tied for 1st after the first two days-all with zero faults! Isn't it nice when the trustworthy favorites pull through for us?!? Beezie is also in fourth with just one fault on De Silvio. What a lady...

Anyone have any details?

[JEP]

Hey guys, the results are up on the USEF site!

Trial 2 and combined standings (http://www.usef.org/olympics/2004/pdfs/DelMarShowJumpingTrial2.pdf)

Norman, Beezie (authentic), and Mclain (sapphire) are all tied for 1st after the first two days-all with zero faults! Isn't it nice when the trustworthy favorites pull through for us?!? Beezie is also in fourth with just one fault on De Silvio. What a lady...

Anyone have any details?

[Glimmerglass]

Whoa - 51 faults by Margie today! I feel for the woman as you know she is giving it her all and any other time she'd be well in the top quartile http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

By the what gives with the massive delay with the COTH results? Hate to be critical but this is the info age ... instant results should be well .. pretty much real time, then the notes / report later.

[CBoylen]

People have reported that margie did not jump today; so I assume the 51 is a tabulated score adding a penalty to the highest fault total from today.

[lauriep]

Patience, all, she is but one person and can't post and watch at the same time. Also, some technical difficulties at the hotel, I'm told...

She does promise a photo gallery when she gets back, however!

[clearound]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Boylen:
People have reported that margie did not jump today; so I assume the 51 is a tabulated score adding a penalty to the highest fault total from today. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

According to Towerheads, Margie withdrew from the Trials as a result of reinjuring her leg in last nights competition.

[Duffy]

Go Norman and Glasgow! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[showgirl]

Total Scores after 3 rounds:
Beezie finished on top with Desilvio.
Tied for 2nd (with 4 total faults) were:
Sapphire & McLain,
Irco Sun & Clare,
Authentic & Beezie,
Fein Cera & Peter,
Quickstar & McLain
Then tied with 8 total faults:
Lutopia & Molly,
Casanova & Alison,
Clasiko & Lauren,
Katerina & Clare
(Glasgow and Norman were a scratch tonight)

[PonyJumperGRL]

What happened to Hilton Flight? He dropped down pretty darn fast.

[Weatherford]

Don't know what happened to Hilton FLight, but from the box scores, it looks like he didn't do Round 3 (neither did Norman/Glascow; Hap; Debbie; & Margie.)

Trial #1 Trial #2 Trial #3 TOTAL
RANK RIDER HORSE Faults Faults Faults FAULTS
Madden, Beezie De Silvio 0 1 1 2
T2 Bronfman, Clare Irco Sun 1 2 1 4
T2 Madden, Beezie Authentic 0 0 4 4
T2 Ward, McLain Sapphire 0 0 4 4
T2 Wylde, Peter Fein Cera 4 0 0 4
T6 Ashe, Molly Lutopia 0 4 4 8
T6 Bronfman, Clare Katerina 4 4 0 8
T 6 Firestone, Alison Casanova 0 4 4 8
T6 Hough, Lauren Clasiko 0 8 0 8
T6 Ward, McLain Quickstar II Z 4 0 4 8
T8 Simpson, Nicole El Campeon's So Long 4 0 5 9
T8 Spooner, Richard Robinson 0 4 5 9
13 Sweely, Robin Carlow Clover 5 8 0 13
14 Kursinski, Anne Great Point 5 5 4 14
15 Fargis, Joe Edgar 12 4 4 8 16
T16 Madden, Beezie Judgement 8 1 8 17
T16 Riley, Schuyler Opus Sept 4 5 8 17
T18 French, John Millennium 8 8 4 20
T18 Salick, Gabriella Sandstone Laurin 4 4 12 20
T20 Dello-Joio, Norman Peace Train 4 4 13 21
T20 Minikus, Todd Gardenio 8 4 9 21
T22 Kursinski, Anne Eros 4 5 13 22
T22 Talla, Molly Camaron Hills Shanroe 1 12 9 22
T24 Campf, Jeff Lady D 0 20 8 28
T24 Kursinski, Anne Sun God 16 8 4 28
26 Riley, Schuyler Ilian 4 16 9 29
27 Gatlin, Joie SunCal's King 1 16 13 30
28 Bond, Ashlee Fabius 45 4 17 10 31
29 Dello-Joio, Norman Glasgow 0 0 33 33
30 Gatlin, Joie Mogarebi's Jente 12 20 8 40
31 Spooner, Richard Hilton Flight 0 16 33 49
32 Hansen, Hap Horalas 20 13 33 66
33 Engle, Margie Hidden Creek's Perin 0 51 33 84
34 Stephens, Debbie Cosequin's CEO 40 31 33 104


Some incorrect scores in the original posting - this is now correct... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Lord Helpus]

Is this a case of the highest score being dropped?

What happeds to all of the tied scores? Does the committee get to chooe between everone tied for 1st or 2nd to come up with the top 4?

Are there 4 rounds total?

Is the the only set of trials or is there another set of trials next month just in case you have a horse who has a strain now but who might be better in a couple of weeks?

[Weatherford]

Five rounds total - and I can't remember how they discerned ties - seems to me for the WEG Team, everything just fell into place... But I suspect time would be the deciding factor in the end.

The selectors have two "byes" - so essentially, the riders are riding for slots 1 & 2, as I will bet they will use their second bye for someone...

[SAM]

Awww I was routing for Anne and Eros. I love that horse.

[Madeline]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
The selectors have two "byes" - so essentially, the riders are riding for slots 1 & 2, as I will bet they will use their second bye for someone... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting. With Glasgow's non-start Saturday, there are two really good competitors looking at the remaining bye...

[lauriep]

Pam, Trials 1,2, and 3 were this weekend, at Del Mar. Next weekend are #4 & #5, at the Oaks/Blenheim. The outcome will be decided at the end of next weekend, and if the bye is awarded, they will probably hold it to cover anything bizarre happening to one of the top contenders, like Beezie. They are not going to give up the last subjective option easily, and the trials so far seem to really be telling a legitimate story. But things have changed DRAMATICALLY the second weekend in the past, so we will REALLY be watching next weekend.

Read Molly Sorge's coverage on the link on the main page of COTH. She has gotten some good information and pictures.

[Party Rose]

I'm very surprized with you lauriep.....A woman that knows everything.

Here is the reality:
There are a total of "6" rounds.

The next three are:
Next Saturday at 1:00
Next Sunday at 11:00 and then the sixth round to follow the 11:00 class.

[Chestnut Manure]

What a stupid way to pick a team.

[Party Rose]

Dawn Mills
There has been so very much controversy about the selection of our teams over the years. What suggestions do you have? You never know if it is a lightbulb idea that could be used in the future, but I think that if we are going there on the boards, then someone should open a new topic & keep this thread to the subject topic as it is posted.

I am sure that everyone has ideas to be muttled over.

[Chestnut Manure]

Why not just identify 4 major GP's and say the winner of each gets a spot on the team? The Olympics are all about rising to the occasion on a particular day. The trials marathon almost guarantees you'll get 4 that can't do that.

[PonyJumperGRL]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dawn Mills:
Why not just identify 4 major GP's and say the winner of each gets a spot on the team? The Olympics are all about rising to the occasion on a particular day. The trials marathon almost guarantees you'll get 4 that can't do that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who's then, to say that you didn't just have a lucky day? Or, what if horses that have gone well in a consistent basis are having an off day and don't jump like they usually do?

[Chestnut Manure]

A horse thats good on a lucky day is what you want.

And if the 4 GP's are all on different days, the problem of a good horse having an off day goes away. If you cant win once in 4 tries the Olympics arent for you.

[jr]

Dawn Mills -- Look at the records of the top horses. Some horses are "lucky" consistently, week after week, year after year. Maybe it's capability and training. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Yes, luck plays a part,but just a part.

We used to (in the stone age) go completely on selector opinion. That worked to some extent, but was perhaps not as egalitarian as we'd like. Then we went to the totally objective system -- a disaster in my opinion.

I think we need to give this format a chance, as it's a combination of the two. Also, I'm not sure it isn't a good thing to have a 2-week intensive selection period. It potentially shows you which pairs can focus on command and perform under pressure The timing of this is good too -- 3 months in advance so as not pound our best horses into the ground too close to the event.

It's easy to criticize the process. I think the rule should be that if you criticize, you also have to offer a possible solution.

[Chestnut Manure]

why would you want consistency? You only get one try at the Olympics. How is four tries not enough?

[CBoylen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madeline:
Interesting. With Glasgow's non-start Saturday, there are two really good competitors looking at the remaining bye... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You would really give a bye to a horse that broke after two days of trials? One of things that I think our trial system does well is the emphasis it places on a sound horse. I'd be really reluctant to pick Glasgow over a horse that remained sound throughout the trials, or one that had some sort of 'accident' e.g. stepping on a clip or something of that nature, a particular cause-and-effect unsoundness. That's what I think the subjective part of the system should be reserved for. Just a matter of opinion, please don't think I'm picking on the horse or Norman in any way, it's bad luck for him and a terrible shame.

[JustJump]

The selectors don't NEED to use the second bye at all.

As for using it for Glasgow--have they been asked to cosider doing so? If this were the case, I doubt they'd be taking a stab in the dark as far as the horse's soundness is concerned--they will certainly be privy to the details of why Norman felt he wasn't right, and whether it might be something minor and temporary (in which case a bye might be considered) or not so minor, (in which case it might not.)

Goodness, Dawn Mills. What is your agenda? I guess when all the arrangements were made for the trials, the riders, owners, trainers, team selectors, and national governing body(ies?) all forgot to get your approval? Ooops.

[jr]

Dawn Mills - Gee, since the Olympic competition consists of more than one round, that might be a good reason.

If you really think this sport is about luck, you might want to do Vegas instead of throwing your money away on riding lessons. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Chestnut Manure]

Its two rounds? Not six?? Who woulda thought it?

How many races in the triple crown?

Edited to say its not about luck, its about rising to the occaision. You say the objective method was a disaster. What is it about the so-called combination method that is supposed to work well? How do you combine a disaster with something antiquated and get anything useful?

[Madeline]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Boylen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madeline:
Interesting. With Glasgow's non-start Saturday, there are two really good competitors looking at the remaining bye... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You would really give a bye to a horse that broke after two days of trials? One of things that I think our trial system does well is the emphasis it places on a sound horse. &lt;snip&gt; <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not cool enough to know what happened to Glasgow. All I read was that he "didn't feel right." Since that's all I know, I just tossed out the idea of a bye, as it seems Glasgow, if he had a minor injury, was far closer to deserving a bye based on his performance this year. Now, if it turns out that he did a major injury I agree that he doesn't deserve a bye.

[jr]

Dawn Mills -- You've talked about this being a stupid way to pick a team. You've talked about, I guess, just picking the top horses from some random set of GPs. I'm not sure what that method does to prove the ability to rise to the occassion.

My point is, that I'd rather pick the team that can rise to the occasion over a tough, multi-leg test, than the one that does it once or twice.

At one point you said "A horse thats good on a lucky day is what you want." Gee, brilliant. I'm not sure how you select that, but lets submit that to the USEF and all our problems will be solved.

Sorry to sound peevish, but it is really easy to tear down what USEF is done. If you want to critique, offer a process solution. Trying to find the "lucky" horse just don't cut it.

[Chestnut Manure]

Obviously its not a random GP if the process is announced in advance.

How in the world does my method not prove the ability to rise to the occasion?

I have offered a solution. That you choose to be ignorant as to its benefits is not my problem.

[lauriep]

Sorry to shatter your illusion, Party Rose, but I don't know, and have never claimed to know, everything, or anything close to it. Excuse me for making the mistake of counting 2 more DAYS as two rounds; Pam, the format is the same next weekend, three rounds over two days, ut the days are Sat. and Sun.

[lauriep]

Dawn, at this point in time, we don't have enough truly international size GPs, also run under FEI rules, in this country to do that. Using American medication rules won't work, which is why the jogs at these FEI events can be so telling.

I do agree with you, though, that selecting from several events over say, 6 months, if they were the right competitions, would make more sense. The competitions would have to be the same format as the Olympics, as that is a big deal, we don't jump that many rounds normally, run under FEI rules, and winning one wouldn't necessarily guarantee you a slot, if you didn't also place consistently high in the rest of them. And, European wins/placements would count, too, for those that choose to compete over there.

Which probably won't happen anytime soon, so this format has to be made to work as well as possible. Maybe next time they will be able to award three byes!

[jr]

Hmmm, on one hand, multiple former world cup, Olympic, and USEF experts. Who, by the way, don't claim the current method is necesarily right, but formulated it based on the lessons of the last 20 years of experience in hopes of moving us back to the right direction.

On the other hand, your esteemed personage.

I'm happy throwing my lot in with the "ignorant" former group.

[Chestnut Manure]

That would be the last 20 years experience of losing?


And I'd take my expertise over yours any day.

[Party Rose]

lauriep

I quess that we were both wrong.

Me for trying to make a joke

And you for being so defensive and argumentive the past few days.

I appologize and hope that you wake up on the other side of the bed tomorrow.

I meant nothing but humor and correction of an important issue by my post.

So very sorry to have offended you.

[jr]

Wow, the most ignorant person is the one who doesn't know, what they don't know.

And yes, we've lost off and on for 20 years. If you think that is solely due to the selection process, you might want to broaden out your perspective a little.

Any yes, sometimes negative experience is valuable. The process we've arrived at this year is trying to take what has worked from the past (including byes) and combine it with some objective criteria.

Based on the experience we have this year, it will likely be tweeked further.

And you know what? A good selection process will help, but our problems over the last 20 years are much deeper than that.

[Heather]

The problem is the Olympics isn't one round. The Olympics is individual qualifier, two or three rounds of a nation's cup, and then two or more round of an individual final.

I'll concede that our trials may take too much out of the horses, but as has been alluded to we have nothing in our regular competiton schedule that remotely tests the ability of our horses and riders to compete like that. The fences and courses aren't hard enough, the drug rules aren't stringent enough, and the classes (and rounds per class) are too few (a first round and a jump off, at best).

So until we figure out a way to make our top clas horses and riders jump like that on a regular basis, these sorts of trials are the only prayer we have. Because sorry, winning the biggest Grand prix in the US has proven time and again not to transfer to Olympic or World Championship form. Our sport at the top levels here, just simply isn't hard enough. That's all there is to it.

[Chestnut Manure]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jr:
Wow, the most ignorant person is the one who doesn't know, what they don't know.

And yes, we've lost off and on for 20 years. If you think that is solely due to the selection process, you might want to broaden out your perspective a little.

Any yes, sometimes negative experience is valuable. The process we've arrived at this year is trying to take what has worked from the past (including byes) and combine it with some objective criteria.

Based on the experience we have this year, it will likely be tweeked further.

And you know what? A good selection process will help, but our problems over the last 20 years are much deeper than that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

actually, no. The most ignorant person is the one who thinks they know what they dont.

[Party Rose]

I believe that I copied everything from the "Olympic Trials, day 2" thread.

This is always a good subject to persue & everyone has their own opinions. It can be explosive & I really meant it if there were going to be responses to Dawn Mills original statement, that the subject should have it's own thread and not take the spirit away from the original thread.

Have fun at it....Who knows, possibly something could come of it and our process could be changed once again.

[jr]

Thanks for proving my point in real time. Psst -- not knowing what you don't know, and thinking you know something you don't know -- they're the same thing.

[Sparky]

dawn mills, your system of picking the winners of 4 designated Grand Prixs is somewhat flawed. If the four chosen were from Indio,for instance, the Olympic Team would be Richard Spooner with Robinson, oh, and Richard Spooner with Hilton Flight, joined by Richard Spooner and Bradford.

[equitationlane]

I believe, but am not sure, that it was Linda Allen that said we Americans were brilliant at getting a horse ready for a Grand Prix. One. On Saturday. But that we really were behind the Europeans having a horse prepared for a multi day show jumping. In my mind the reason for six rounds over ten days is to see what horses will rise to the occasion. Yes, it is a lot of jumping, but, unlike Sidney, they don’t just jump on a plane and go from there. There will quite a bit of time to get everyone rested and prepared for the “big event”.

[Chestnut Manure]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sparky:
dawn mills, your system of picking the winners of 4 designated Grand Prixs is somewhat flawed. If the four chosen were from Indio,for instance, the Olympic Team would be Richard Spooner with Robinson, oh, and Richard Spooner with Hilton Flight, joined by Richard Spooner and Bradford. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


well they probably wouldnt designate 4 GP's all on the west coast, but even if they did its safe to say all the big guns would go there and you wouldnt get the same person winning all four. Obviously some kind of tie breaker would have to be used if the same person did win more than one.

jr - what was your point anyway? That everyone except you should shut up?

[Chestnut Manure]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by equitationlane:
I believe, but am not sure, that it was Linda Allen that said we Americans were brilliant at getting a horse ready for a Grand Prix. One. On Saturday. But that we really were behind the Europeans having a horse prepared for a multi day show jumping. In my mind the reason for six rounds over ten days is to see what horses will rise to the occasion. Yes, it is a lot of jumping, but, unlike Sidney, they don’t just jump on a plane and go from there. There will quite a bit of time to get everyone rested and prepared for the “big event”. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well whoever said that (Linda Allen or anyone else) has it backwards. Americans are brilliant at keeping horses going twice a week for nine or ten months a year. That's not what wins at the Olympics.

[ss3777]

It appears, that in the US we run a trial marathon before the marathon. Don't know of any marathon runners that would do that. Seems like we may sqeeze the best out of our horse and riders prior to the Olympics. I guess I would want them to peak at the Olympics and I fear that this may not happen with this process. Perhaps we need to go down the slippery slope of a more subjective process. JMHO!

[MAD]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And you for being so defensive and argumentive the past few days. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh get it right Party Rose. I'd call her thought provoking not defensive and argumentive unless you start a fight.

[Madeline]

So what did happen to Glasgow, anyhow?

[Gracious]

I'm not going to get into the argument into how I think we need to run the Olympic trials, because honestly, I don't know if there is a better way for us.

One question I do have though is how other countries (specifically ones who are competitive on a regular basis - Germany, France, Ireland, etc.) select their Olympic teams? Does anybody know?

[nutmeg]

Don't know about France and Ireland, but in Germany the chef d'equipe watches the top horse/rider combinations at selected shows and makes his choice (then he calls Ludger Beerbaum to ask if it's okay). In Holland, Bert Romp does the same thing, then he calls Jan Tops to ask if it's okay. Just kidding! No, they really do pick certain shows plus the national championships to see who they think is on form. They usually have a pre-selected A group consisting of about ten riders that they focus on.

[MAD]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nutmeg:
Don't know about France and Ireland, but in Germany the chef d'equipe watches the top horse/rider combinations at selected shows and makes his choice (then he calls Ludger Beerbaum to ask if it's okay). In Holland, Bert Romp does the same thing, then he calls Jan Tops to ask if it's okay. Just kidding! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ROTFLMAO

Did we freeze Bert like they did Walt Disney? Can we bring him back yet?

[nutmeg]

Re: frozen Bert

(sigh) I wish!

[lauriep]

I think it is the same in France. And it WAS the same here until Bert retired. Things started to change when we went to the '78 World Championships; although the selection trials were held over a series of GPs, and the team selected from those, mostly by Bert, his control over the actual horses and riders once on the tour was limited. The only actual "team" horse that we took was Viscount, and of course, Bert guided his training and schooling. But all the other horses were privately owned and not under USET control, so other than minimal guidance and help with formalities, Bert had nothing to do with the day to day lives of these horses. He did decide who, out of the five, would be on Nations Cup teams and the WC.

Once Bert retired, the last vestiges of real control by the TEAM was gone, and the '90s lawsuits cemented that deal. There is a real fear of more suits still around.

But, we are moving back towards a better system. I don't like the format of intense trials, and would prefer building some specific GPs, over a period of time, that would assess a rider's ability to be consistent. Maybe have international and national GPs. The European system works, and I don't think we can go wrong to copy it in as many ways as we can.

[MAD]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nutmeg:
Re: frozen Bert

(sigh) I wish! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't put it like that...EBTW will put him in a recipe http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dawn Mills:
Obviously its not a random GP if the process is announced in advance.

How in the world does my method not prove the ability to rise to the occasion?

I have offered a solution. That you choose to be ignorant as to its benefits is not my problem. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, how about this; one of your winners (of one of the specified GPs) does a Margie and breaks a leg. How do you go about replacing that team member? Go to second place on that particular GP? Would you really want someone who could do no better than second in their own home country? Or would you go to second place on one of the other GPs? And if so, would the three non-picked second place finishers have a right to contest?

Opens up far more cans of worms than it seals, methinks.............. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

[Go-Go]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
Once Bert retired, the last vestiges of real control by the TEAM was gone, and the '90s lawsuits cemented that deal. There is a real fear of more suits still around. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, Lauriep, say it ain't so! What on earth could possibly left open to sue? That breaks my heart to think that the attitude of litigating, as opposed to selecting, the team is still around. How pathetic. It will be interesting to see if the new system works well - I sure hope it does, and it sounds like a solid step in the right direction. I'd hate to see it undone by another lawsuit.

[Jaysee]

Glasgow is out for 3 months with a tendon issue. I believe he will go back to FL for some rehab. I don't think it's my place to say specifically what the issue is, but it was not an ongoing one. Bad luck. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Go-Go]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jaysee:
Glasgow is out for 3 months with a tendon issue. I believe he will go back to FL for some rehab. I don't think it's my place to say specifically what the issue is, but it was not an ongoing one. Bad luck. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Crapola. That sucks. Do you know what happened to Viktor by any chance?

[lauriep]

Go-Go, trust me when I tell you, the issue is very much alive.

[Robby Johnson]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by clearound:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Boylen:
People have reported that margie did not jump today; so I assume the 51 is a tabulated score adding a penalty to the highest fault total from today. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

According to Towerheads, Margie withdrew from the Trials as a result of reinjuring her leg in last nights competition. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is absolutely terrible. I really feel for her.

While I admire her grit and tenacity, I also hope her reinjury isn't detrimental to future riding.

Robby

[lauriep]

From what I have heard, as long as she stops now, the tearing and soft tissue damage isn't detrimental (other than adding a few days to healing). But if she had gone on, serious, even permanent damage could have been done.

Now, the big question is, even though we so want her to get the bye, is it REALLY realistic to think she will be 1) totally healed in time for the European shows (Aachen isn't a cakewalk) and 2) at the top of her game and fitness levelby the Olympics? I think the selectors will have to really quiz her doctors for every conceivable scenario before making that decision. It will be a grueling trip, with big, important competitions, culminating with the Olympics. You really need to be 100% to pull it off. No worries about Perin, though.

[Go-Go]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
Go-Go, trust me when I tell you, the issue is very much alive. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Drats. I know you can't say more, but that really bites.

And, BTW, I'm starting to fear you less and less, but I still mind my p's and q's! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Duffy]

Damn - re Glasgow. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Coreene]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dawn Mills:

Well whoever said that (Linda Allen or anyone else) has it backwards. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Linda Allen, backwards? Give me a break. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[MAD]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Go-Go:
And, BTW, I'm starting to fear you less and less, but I still mind my p's and q's! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL. Fear LaurieP as much as you fear Moesha or Jair (if he really exists http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) Good Eggs.

editing to add - or rocks...

[Jair]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MAD:

LOL. Fear LaurieP as much as you fear Moesha or Jair (if he really exists http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) Good Eggs.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey! I've had enough of this existentialist labeling! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

You stop if right now! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Go-Go]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MAD:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Go-Go:
And, BTW, I'm starting to fear you less and less, but I still mind my p's and q's! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL. Fear LaurieP as much as you fear Moesha or Jair (if he really exists http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) Good Eggs.

editing to add - or rocks... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hope I don't sound negative - not at all how I feel. I just have a tremendously healthy respect for Lauriep. Can't say the same for Hoeisha. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Whitewater]

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">RANKING OF CANDIDATES</span>
2004 OG Show Jumping SElection Procedure (http://www.usef.org/documents/highPerformance/showJumping/ShowJumpingAthleteSelectionProcedures.htm)
<span class="ev_code_GREEN">Scroll down to Section V. Ranking of Candidates.</span>

[Chestnut Manure]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Coreene:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dawn Mills:

Well whoever said that (Linda Allen or anyone else) has it backwards. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Linda Allen, backwards? Give me a break. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What are you saying? That Americans are not brilliant at keeping horses going 10 months at a time? Do you even know if Linda Allen was the one who said that?


ESG - the second place thing seems like a reasonable idea. Any selection process has to have something in place in case a horse is unable to compete.

[lauriep]

Dawn, I think the more important thing would be showing consistency. Just about any one of the current riders COULD get lucky enough and win even a big GP on a given day. But that certainly wouldn't necessarily qualify them to then be put on the Olympic team, especially if it is the only ribbon they had ever gotten! It is widely felt that that is sort of what happened in the trials for the 2000 Games, and that is why we sent such a "novice" team to Sydney.

But if we used your same scenario, and used the riders who had earned the most points by consistently being 1-4, for instance, it would seem to make more sense. And to use competitions that were closer in format and size to what they will face in the Games.

[Chestnut Manure]

I dont see why you wouldnt want to send a horse that can jump up and win on a particular day. Thats what you have to do at the Olympics. The multiple selecion rounds amount to second, third, fourth etc chances you dont get on the day it counts.

If they have to have multiple rounds, why not have them over courses of increasing difficulty and you have to go clean to move on?

ie

Day 1 - 1.4M
Day 2 - 1.45

etc

[Jaysee]

Every dog has it's day.... a favorite saying on Sundays.

[Chestnut Manure]

OK so if the 4 GP's in question were any four big classes from WEF 2004, which winner would be a fluke? I think none.

[BLBGP]

Well, why don't we informally test it? Dawn Mills, pick your four big classes, we'll look up the records, and let's see who the "team" would be from there. Then we'll see how close that team is to the one that is actually picked.

Although, since no riders knew about this, you shouldn't just choose WEF because many top riders were at Indio instead. And you'd also have to find something overseas to include our riders who have been competing in Europe instead of here in the US.

So, what four classes are the ones?

[Party Rose]

I have always been a fairly competitive rider with the best of them, occassionally beating the bunch. Wouldn't it be a shame if I had been riding at that level and won on one of those days where selections would be pulled from.

If I were chosen, I would pull myself out. There is no way that I would allow myself to represent my country.

Fluck days are just that, fluke days and if this is actually what you are saying, I have to disagree with the entire concept.

[Chestnut Manure]

Ok well lets say the last 4 sunday classes at wellington.

Naturally if they were identified in advance as trials the problem of some contenders not attending wouldnt exist.

[Party Rose]

What about Claire, that is doing so well at the trials? What about the people that opted for Indio, Arizona and the other Florida circuit?

Do they not get a chance to try for the team because they were at the wrong place at the wrong time?

[BLBGP]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dawn Mills:
Ok well lets say the last 4 sunday classes at wellington.

Naturally if they were identified in advance as trials the problem of some contenders not attending wouldnt exist. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True, but in this case it wasn't announced in advance, so I was trying to give your theory the benefit of the doubt by letting it add a larger cross section (say, adding the biggest Indio GP). Otherwise it's just east coasters, and not even all of them. Possibly some non-Americans as well.

[BLBGP]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Party Rose:
What about Claire, that is doing so well at the trials? What about the people that opted for Indio, Arizona and the other Florida circuit?

Do they not get a chance to try for the team because they were at the wrong place at the wrong time? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or people like Peter Wylde, as well. But I think DM is trying to say that is it were announced in advance, the riders would come back over for it, like they are now, but it wouldn't be as taxing to the horses because it would be GP's they would normally fit into their schedules?

[MAD]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jair:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MAD:

LOL. Fear LaurieP as much as you fear Moesha or Jair (if he really exists http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) Good Eggs.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey! I've had enough of this existentialist labeling! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

You stop if right now! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

neener neener it worked! HELLO!

[Jair]

Neener neener right back at ya!

and Hello to you too! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[MAD]

There are too many Olympic threads going on.
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[Party Rose]

OK, so lets say that that show management would go for using various GP's as Trials, two things come to mind.

1. Management hates to loose money. It would cut down on the amount of entries for those shows/classes, because...

2. When a Trials course is constructed, as any other course, it is adjusted to the level of the riders. Trial courses are constructed to see who can ride at the same level as our competitors around the world and weeds out those that can't rise to the occassion.

Dawn, I really think that if you believe in your system, that you should construct a letter to the USEF Organizing Committee with your ideas. Who knows?????

[khobstetter]

The Trials are set for this time of year as the horses are not at any other show NOR are the Trials a "show"..to use the GP's at WEF it would be at a show venue, conflicting with HUGE other circuits which would force the riders to chose between their businesses OR the Trials.

Plus the riders would have to deal with keeping the othr clients happy, riding in LOTS of other divisions and so on and so on and so on ad nauseum.

This way it is a set of classes where the riders have no other distractions WITH THIS PARTICULAR HORSE.

Of course some of the California riders especially are across the freeway at Show Park BUT most of the Olympic contender Trials riders are focusing on nothing else but this for these 2 weeks.....

And it allows Peter, Clare and whoever else to fly in from Europe so they can also take a shot at it.....

I sat and watched the first 3 rounds and while it has not yet named our Team, it HAS sorted out a bunch that should absolutely not be going this year.......I am just sad for the loss of Norman and Debbie, I felt they could be contenders.

As for Margie.....I think she is super BUT NOT for this year...fate delt a sad hand but that does not mean a bye.

[SED]

Okay -- I want to shift gears a little with a question on the trials. I just got my Practical Horseman in today's mail. It has a gorgeous picture of Beezie Madden and Conquest II (her horse from Pan Am) on the cover. That was the horse I was trying to remember in an earlier thread. I fell in love with him last year. Why isn't she riding him in the trials?

[lauriep]

I have heard she doesn't feel he has the scope for an Olympic course.

No, Dawn, I wouldn't want to put someone on the Team who jumped up and won one class. The chance of them doing again would be slim to none. A rider that consistently was 1-4 could easily be counted on to put together at least one clear round if not several. The odds would be in their favor.

There are so many GPs now, sometimes 2-3 in a weekend, that it would be fairly easy to designate 4-6 over the course of a few months, on either coast, as Trial GPs, and still have plenty of regular GPs for the folks not trying for a spot to attend.

But you are correct in that management will probably never give up the entry fees they would lose with a reduced field.

[Chestnut Manure]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Party Rose:
OK, so lets say that that show management would go for using various GP's as Trials, two things come to mind.

1. Management hates to loose money. It would cut down on the amount of entries for those shows/classes, because...

2. When a Trials course is constructed, as any other course, it is adjusted to the level of the riders. Trial courses are constructed to see who can ride at the same level as our competitors around the world and weeds out those that can't rise to the occassion.

Dawn, I really think that if you believe in your system, that you should construct a letter to the USEF Organizing Committee with your ideas. Who knows????? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I really see how running an Olympic qualifier woule be a money losing proposition for the organizers. They wouldnt even have to offer prize money, for one thing.

Who are these flukes who are going to sneak into Olympic competition with a win at a WEF GP? I cant think of even one.

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dawn Mills:
Who are these flukes who are going to sneak into Olympic competition with a win at a WEF GP? I cant think of even one. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try harder... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Iceberg - ridden by Alison Firestone. Nice horse. Won at WEF this year. Won $3000 last year. And yet Alison opted to bring Casanova to the trials.

If WEF ran on a Nations Cup format, it would be a good ready made test, but being talented at trigonometry doesn't guarantee a lot about your success at statistics, other than we know your mind works in a sequence favorable to mathematical success.

Ditto for one big class a week. It just says the horse has the talent to do the big sticks. Now does he have the personality and toughness to come back several times over a few days? Different test.

This seems too obvious to me, but I was ever talented at calculus and sucked at sequences and series, so maybe I work on a different plane. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Chestnut Manure]

So whats wrong with Iceberg? Is he any worse than the worst horse that will actually be sent? I doubt it.

And last time I checked, Grands Prix had two rounds. The whole thing about having to jump twice at the Olympics is smoke and mirrors.

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dawn Mills:
So whats wrong with Iceberg? Is he any worse than the worst horse that will actually be sent? I doubt it.

And last time I checked, Grands Prix had two rounds. The whole thing about having to jump twice at the Olympics is smoke and mirrors. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well who would know? Has anyone seen him jump that format? As for whether he is better or worse, I think his rider made a statement about who she believes is her best horse for the course. You are free to disagree with her, naturally.

Now here is the part I just have to know. Are you seriously contending that it is exactly the same skill set to get around a single round/jump off class as it is to get around a Nation's Cup format/length class?

And are you really saying that the fitness level needed to do a single class/jump off is exactly the same as needed for a Nation's Cup format?

[Chestnut Manure]

Well since nobody else has the ambition to look it up, the highest-placed American at the last 4 sundays at welington were:

Royal Kaliber
Marlou
Clasiko
Saphire

I doubt very much that the team that's actually sent could beat these 4 over the course they'll build in Athens. I have no clue what Iceberg has to do with it.

Equally interesting is that Royal Kaliber is on this team without any bye required.

[Jamie Taylor]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dawn Mills:
So whats wrong with Iceberg? Is he any worse than the worst horse that will actually be sent? I doubt it.

And last time I checked, Grands Prix had two rounds. The whole thing about having to jump twice at the Olympics is smoke and mirrors. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Iceberg is a fabulous Grand Prix horse. However, the Olympics is a whole 'nother ballpark. Just because a horse can win the Grand Prixs doesn't mean that it has the scope or the mental stability or even just the toughness for the Olympics.
Also many horses are just spooky (although not typical in Grand Prix horses, it does happen) and at the Olympics you don't get warm up classes through out the week that you can school in.

A typical Sunday grand prix is not the same as an Olympic course. Just because a horse can win a Sunday, even at WEF, doesn't mean it can jump clean at the Olympics.

The way these trials are being run seems to be fine. I'm sure eventually we will think of an even more brillant idea, but with the selection commitee I think the team will end up just fine.

...I have to say it's a shame about Glasgow. The horse was jumping amazingly and looked to be in great contention for the team. It's definitely a loss for the US, but I guess that's just how things go sometimes.

[nutmeg]

Can't speak for Alison Firestone, but I've known Iceberg for a long time. He took his former very gutsy but less talented owner to a top 15 finish in the World Cup in Las Vegas, so he can deal with a 4 round event. However he has a delicate stomach and a bit of a temper. It looks like Alison thinks Casanova is a more solid competitor and more likely to stay the distance.

[Chestnut Manure]

The size of the ring and the temperature have more to do with the fitness required than the format.

[Jumper221]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dawn Mills:
So whats wrong with Iceberg? Is he any worse than the worst horse that will actually be sent? I doubt it.

And last time I checked, Grands Prix had two rounds. The whole thing about having to jump twice at the Olympics is smoke and mirrors. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually the olympics has a qualifying round, then a two round nations cup for the team competition, and the individual final which I believe is two rounds as well.

A grand prix is one round followed by a shortened jumpoff.

[Chestnut Manure]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jumper221:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dawn Mills:
So whats wrong with Iceberg? Is he any worse than the worst horse that will actually be sent? I doubt it.

And last time I checked, Grands Prix had two rounds. The whole thing about having to jump twice at the Olympics is smoke and mirrors. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually the olympics has a qualifying round, then a two round nations cup for the team competition, and the individual final which I believe is two rounds as well.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Over 3 weeks. And most horses in the GP have shown at least once thru the week as well.

[DMK]

Still waiting for an answer to my specific questions...

As to what Iceburg had to do with it...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Who are these flukes who are going to sneak into Olympic competition with a win at a WEF GP? I cant think of even one <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm working off that quote as Reason A.

nutmeg - thanks for the info on him, but truly that all just ties into what makes a great international horse that can be counted on in a pinch. Rather like the difference between Funny Cide and Smarty Jones. Both come to the table with all the requisite speed talent, and Funny Cide might beat Smarty if things went his way, but Smarty could probably be counted on beating Funny Cide over the long haul, because he looks to be a player 100% of the time...

[Jumper221]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dawn Mills:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jumper221:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dawn Mills:
So whats wrong with Iceberg? Is he any worse than the worst horse that will actually be sent? I doubt it.

And last time I checked, Grands Prix had two rounds. The whole thing about having to jump twice at the Olympics is smoke and mirrors. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually the olympics has a qualifying round, then a two round nations cup for the team competition, and the individual final which I believe is two rounds as well.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Over 3 weeks. And most horses in the GP have shown at least once thru the week as well. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but its required that you're consistent over 3 weeks. I don't think that the format we have now is perfect, but I think we do need trials that require repeated clean rounds.

[Chestnut Manure]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Are you seriously contending that it is exactly the same skill set to get around a single round/jump off class as it is to get around a Nation's Cup format/length class?

And are you really saying that the fitness level needed to do a single class/jump off is exactly the same as needed for a Nation's Cup format?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pretty close. Nowhere near different enough to require a seperate qualifying process.

They pick the teams for the Nations Cups from GP's.

anyway Iceberg wouldnt have qualified under my system. so what is your point?

[Chestnut Manure]

More on the Iceberg example:

There's nothing stopping a horse who won $3000 last year from qualifying under the present system. I'd say the 3K horse has a better chance today than he would of winning a GP outright.

[Sparky]

[/QUOTE]

Over 3 weeks. And most horses in the GP have shown at least once thru the week as well.[/QUOTE]


Check the facts Dawn: according to the Olympic website, the equestrian competition is to be held over 11 days, from August 15-27, with nothing scheduled on the 19th or 26th. Where do you figure 3 weeks http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[Chestnut Manure]

OK 2 weeks. whatever. and I think the qualifying thing might be before the 2 weeks begins.

[Sparky]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Chestnut Manure]

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dawn Mills:
OK 2 weeks. whatever. and I think the qualifying thing might be before the 2 weeks begins. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It wasn't in Atlanta, and last I checked, 14 days made up 2 weeks, but we are back to that math thing again.

As for that charming $3K argument, you might want to read up on how riders received an invite to the selection trials and what one must do to earn an FEI Certificate of Capability. This would be good info to know when presenting an argument.

But on that note, I can only surmise that we are conducting a particularly bad rendition of Monty Python's "How to Buy an Argument" skit, the primary difference being that John Cleese gave a far better performance. I'll even concede that Palin - was it Palin? - played the role of DMK with much greater finesse. So I will leave you to your world where the event you had to win just to get invited to try out for the big dance some how qualifies as the entire enchilada.

[Chestnut Manure]

As usual you make no sense. You might want to read up on the results at WEF before you make a bigger ass of yourself.

[Sparky]

Yup, whenever the ol' "whatever" is the best answer a friutloop can come up with, it's time to call it a night. Have fun kids.

And DMK, I can't remember that skit, but this does have all the material John Cleese would ever need to write another one. And the yellow scooter and I do NOT think you have a big ass. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[wtywmn4]

Good grief Dawn Mills, there's no need to be quite so cranky.. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif There are many posters here who have been to WEF and watched the GP's. There are many who have groomed these wonderful horses as well. They know them, inside & out, probably better than the riders.

[Lord Helpus]

Well, now, see, I haven't yet figured out why ya'll keep arguing with this Dawn person on her own level. I read the first 2 pages a couple of days ago and tonight checked back in at p5 and its the same old, same old.

Dawn sure sounds like an alter to me; no one trying to explain her position rationally is going to do anything but stoke the fires here. This thread will end up 60 pages long with nothing settled. Dawn will just have argued with 1/2 of the members of this BB for 50 of the pages and argued with herself for ten.

You are free to keep at it. You are also free to keep banging you heads against the wall. The latter might be more fun and productive.


I'll check back in on Thursday and see who is left arguing with Dawn then. Y'all are going to have to take turns cause she is going to wear you out.

[wtywmn4]

Nah LH, we're coming out to your front porch for a nice swing, with the evening settling down around us...Oh, don't forget those drinks.. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[bounce]

Okay... what are the heights and spreads at a Grand Prix, and are they different at the Olympics?

[Party Rose]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Dawn Mills
Training Level

posted May. 17, 2004 10:44 PM
As usual you make no sense. You might want to read up on the results at WEF before you make a bigger ass of yourself.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dawn, if you would actually read what others are posting, perhaps you might get an education as to how the system works.

All I am reading now, is other people trying to assist you in understanding how and why the system is in place the way it is at this moment. Again, I feel that you should write the Organizing Committee with your ideas and stop attacking those that are trying to help you out.

Another thought comes to mind. Are you posting in this manner to become a "Working Hunter" this week?

Please re-read the entire thread after taking a long, hot mineral bath & perhaps you will see the light of the posters intentions. They are all good and for you to be responding as the above quote shows no appreciation or respect for anyone else.

[Party Rose]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I just checked and Dawn has been posting on the boards for only 10 days.

I proclaim to be no expert on any equine subject, but I think that we all would be very interested in a bio of your equestrian experience. How about it Dawn?