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View Full Version : Why still Non-TB classes, not Non-WB classes?



Plumcreek
Jun. 8, 2011, 08:52 PM
I was just looking at the Colo Horse Park Schedule, for the expanded series starting this week, and the Pat Boyle mgmt has the Non-TB classes.
Does that still make sense? Are there still more TBs than WBs? I thought not. Or is it that a TB is registered and therefore known, while a WB can be a number of breed crosses and not registered?

Non-WB makes more sense to me these days. Or maybe a section for registered American breeds? I could show a TB or QH Appx. in that!

CBoylen
Jun. 8, 2011, 09:06 PM
The TB division when offered rarely or barely fills, while a Non-TB division is basically an open schooling division and therefore brings in money for the show manager, who is the one who decides what classes to offer.

snaffle635
Jun. 8, 2011, 09:38 PM
^^^^ Yep. I was explaining this to my mom today (she's non-horsey). My horse showed in the non-TB division today. I think in the 'old days' the division came about when there were lots of TBs winning and there was demand for a non-TB class. Now that demand is high and brings in revenue for the horse shows.

If there's enough demand for a non-WB class, I'm sure the horse shows will start offering it. But with so many WBs showing, I'm not sure how big the classes would be (at least in my area).

Plumcreek
Jun. 8, 2011, 10:18 PM
So why keep the old name? The show manager money angle is fine, but many shows have creative names for those schooling divisions: "Tucson Hunters" and such.

Janet
Jun. 8, 2011, 10:27 PM
So why keep the old name? The show manager money angle is fine, but many shows have creative names for those schooling divisions: "Tucson Hunters" and such.

Because it is in the rule book?

PineTreeFarm
Jun. 9, 2011, 06:36 AM
Because it is in the rule book?

But so are TB only classes.
And neither case applies because while they are in the rule book they are there for the purpose of spliting Green, Performance or High Performance Hunters, not as a standalone division.

Really left over from the years when TB's dominated.

Janet
Jun. 9, 2011, 07:28 AM
You are missing my point.

The rule book clearly defines what is TB and what is non-TB.

If show management were to offer a "non-WB" class, there is no clear definition of what is and isn't a warmblood-

Unregistered offspring of two registered Hanovarians?

Horse that is registered but never inspected or approved?

Horse that is a regeistered TB, but also approved by one of he German registries?

Selle Francais?
RID?
ISH?
Andalusian?
AWS?
AWR?

PineTreeFarm
Jun. 9, 2011, 10:20 AM
You are missing my point.

The rule book clearly defines what is TB and what is non-TB.

If show management were to offer a "non-WB" class, there is no clear definition of what is and isn't a warmblood-

Unregistered offspring of two registered Hanovarians?

Horse that is registered but never inspected or approved?

Horse that is a regeistered TB, but also approved by one of he German registries?

Selle Francais?
RID?
ISH?
Andalusian?
AWS?
AWR?


LOL
"Because it's in the rule book" made a point?

But back to the original premise.
Most shows have a multitude of unrated classes running at various heights.
If a show has a non TB division and nothing else ask the show manager to add another division in the future.

findeight
Jun. 9, 2011, 10:38 AM
Never hurts to ask but, unless you can get them a substantial number of entries-these things usually have at least 20, usually alot more-they will keep the one one that generates the revenue for management plus gives the majority of trainers/riders the opportunity to get a good school in over a course.

So it comes down to numbers and...for all the TB fans out there, how many are up to a AA 3' class (usually during the week), able to travel to the AA show and willing to spend AA prices to go in it????

Even if you build it, they may not come.

The idea might float better at smaller venues where you know you can attract sufficient entries before you ask them to add it.

SillyHorse
Jun. 9, 2011, 01:10 PM
LOL
"Because it's in the rule book" made a point?

But back to the original premise.
Most shows have a multitude of unrated classes running at various heights.
If a show has a non TB division and nothing else ask the show manager to add another division in the future.
I think you don't understand the point. When you can come up with a way to define "non WB" you can ask for a division.

Janet
Jun. 9, 2011, 01:11 PM
LOL
"Because it's in the rule book" made a point?

Yes, the POINT (which I though was so obvious I didd not need to spell it out in words) is that the rulebook DEFINES which horses are eligible for the TB class, and which are eligible for the non-TB class. There is NOTHING that spells out which horses are eligible for the "non WB" class.


If a show has a non TB division and nothing else ask the show manager to add another division in the future.
And what division would that be? Who is going to define the specs of which horses are eligible.

findeight
Jun. 9, 2011, 02:10 PM
USEF/USHJA can define TB because it is a breed and the identity of the horse can be verified via papers or tatoo.

Since WBs are all sorts of types and combinations of bloodlines, it is not a single breed. And what about the lack of papers on many show Hunters because they are just not important to many owners? Who knows what it is, they just care it gets around good.

I bet if you did offer a "non WB" class you'd get 3 TBs a couple of QHs and 38 horses with no papers that look kind of like TBs. Or one like my own mare that was accused of being a Dutch WB on many occasions-she was a TB and she had the papers to prove it, how many do not? You want to slam the gate on those and let all those other 38 that look more like TBs or QHs in??? Or sit there and check papers as a condition of entry??

It is just a huge can of worms that does not need to be opened for what is essentially a schooling/warm up class.

Troispony
Jun. 9, 2011, 02:29 PM
I think the original question wasn't as much about WHY a non-WB class doesn't exist, but why show management would continue to offer a class thats intent was to exclude one specific breed, for the purpose of evening the playing field back when TBs used to hold monopoly on the hunter classes. Seeing as that is no longer the case by any stretch of the imagination, why would this show continue to offer a class excluding TBs when nowadays the WBs are the overwhelming majority in the hunter ring?

TrakHack
Jun. 9, 2011, 02:35 PM
I agree, huge can of worms.

To add to the issue of "what is a WB", I have a Trakehner with no brand and papers that are not in my possession. Unless evidence of DNA is required for entry in the class, I could claim I don't know his lineage and show him as a "non WB".

2DogsFarm
Jun. 9, 2011, 02:47 PM
Making me feel like a dinosaur :eek:

I used to have a running argument with my H/J trainer as to why I should show my (Non-JC registered) TB in the Non-TB class.

ME: Because he IS a TB!
SHE: He's not tattooed, it's a small class, you can enter & win or at least get points.

& so on, ad nauseum.....

fordtraktor
Jun. 9, 2011, 02:53 PM
I do agree that a "Non-TB" division is kind of archaic these days, but instead of replacing it with a TB class, just rename it "Schooling Modified Low Hunters" or something so the handful of TBs actually at the show are not excluded for silly reasons that are no longer relevant in the modern show world. That could mean 1 or 2 more entries for Show Management, woo hoo!

I don't see that being in the rulebook is really an advantage. It is just a mid-week schooling division for A and Children's horses, basically, right? Let the TBs in, if there are any.

It is not like there is a market for speciality horses. I've never seen an ad that says, "Winning Non-TB Hunter!"

findeight
Jun. 9, 2011, 02:58 PM
...I have a Trakehner with no brand and papers that are not in my possession. Unless evidence of DNA is required for entry in the class, I could claim I don't know his lineage and show him as a "non WB".

Exactly my point and Janets too I think. Many don't have a clue what the breeding is and you sure cannot tell alot of WBs from alot of TBs and vice versa.

Despite the fact it IS an antiquated hold over from the days when TBs ruled, there is no way to even define what is and what is not a WB let alone police entries by demanding proof of lineage.

But they will offer non TB because it gets a good number of entries and people are willing to pay to go in it as a good school. That's all it is worth anyway, hardly a marquee class on the weekend with purse money or anything.

If it makes you feel better, the non TB Hunter class is rarely offered in many areas.

Janet
Jun. 9, 2011, 03:08 PM
For the ridden divisions (as opposed to Hunter Breeding), your trainer was correct.


The TB classes are for horses registered with the JC. All others go in the non TB classes.

b. Thoroughbred—registered in any stud book recognized by the Jockey Club.
c. Non-thoroughbred—not registered as in (b).


Making me feel like a dinosaur :eek:

I used to have a running argument with my H/J trainer as to why I should show my (Non-JC registered) TB in the Non-TB class.

ME: Because he IS a TB!
SHE: He's not tattooed, it's a small class, you can enter & win or at least get points.

& so on, ad nauseum.....