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meupatdoes
Jun. 8, 2011, 06:22 PM
Hey everyone-

My horse recently pulled two shoes on the same foot in the course of one shoeing cycle (obviously right as we moved to a new geographic area and had to get a brandy new farrier) and now his already tough-to-shoe club foot is being held together by, as the farrier just stated in awe on the phone, "Two nails that are good and three that are 50/50."

(Other sentiments expressed by the new farrier included, "Holy crap he really IS hard to do," "He really DOES have four different feet," and "I really had a hard time with figuring where in God's name am I supposed to put the nails?")

So anyway long story short I asked the farrier what did he think of me wrapping up the front feet in casts to try to keep that eff shoe on long enough for the horse to stay in work while he grows back the wee smidgen of wall he had before he lost this shoe twice.

Farrier said it sounds like a fine plan but has never used them and has no thoughts on where I would procure these casts for myself.

So:
anyone know where I can get some casts for my horse in the Buffalo, NY area?

anyone have any experience putting them on? It would be over shoes with full plastic pads.

I am guessing they would go on both fronts just to be even about things, right?

EqTrainer
Jun. 8, 2011, 08:05 PM
http://www.equicast.us/

Easy peasy, for your purposes dont go under the entire foot. Watch the video. Call Dave if you need help, he is a great guy :)

Petstorejunkie
Jun. 8, 2011, 08:24 PM
I'm not a fan of equicast. I don't think you get what you pay for.

techform casting tape has held up for me through a whole shoeing cycle and costs about $4 a roll.
http://orthotape.com/Techform_Fiberglass_Casting_Tape.asp

STUDY THIS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGbI2USSxSE

If you apply casting tape incorrectly you can do damage to your horse's feet. Things can deform in there from incorrect application that you won't see til you take the tape off.

EqTrainer
Jun. 8, 2011, 08:31 PM
Spiffy stuff. I like the tech support tho. Thats why I dont have problems with it, thanks Dave.

CBoylen
Jun. 8, 2011, 10:03 PM
Why can't you just have the shoes glued on?

Serigraph
Jun. 8, 2011, 11:01 PM
Be careful with any "breathability" issues too if your horse is prone to thrush and other bacterial problems.

Also on a club foot or other difficult shaped feet, the cast may not stay on as well as if your horse had a more normal foot to cast, as per Dave.

Experiment before you put a bunch of $$ into it. JMO.

meupatdoes
Jun. 9, 2011, 02:27 AM
Why can't you just have the shoes glued on?

OK, this kind of gets my hackles up a little because after the EFFORT it took to even find someone who both CAN and WILL do him and with his soundness being directly correlated to his farrier work being JustSo, to have somebody just lightly toss in a "Why don't you just" is a little ...um, :(.

There is no "Why don't you just" with this horse in the shoeing department. He wears shoes with full pads and fill, (which, is that even glueable???) and even has a wedge pad *behind* which I had to explain to the new farrier on the phone so I have already had one round of Justifying The Shoeing Choices this week, and has been done over 6 years by 8 farriers in four different states, one of whom does the olympic team, and another of whom teaches at Cornell, during which time period he has never been sounder than when he was being just exactly how he was done by the guy in TX. (And none of these farriers has EVER suggested glue-ons for this horse, for whatever reason so...maybe ask them why not?)

So the long answer is above, and the short answer to your question is "because I just walked through fire and pulled out half my hair and basically moved a mountain and spent $275 to get him done JustExactlySo and I sure as shizzle ain't pulling them off again to "just" try glue-ons on a whim."


However, if you have any ideas on casts, which was the original topic, I'm all ears.

Thank you very much, Petstorejunkie, for the video. That is very, very helpful.

Madaketmomma
Jun. 9, 2011, 08:24 AM
This seems to be a touchy subject with you, which I totally understand! It must be so frustrating to have a new farrier, new barn and a complicated horse to shoe. I totally sympathize.

That being said, I think CBoylan was trying to offer a solution, not throw something out there and go off subject. I think it is a natural question as to why your farrier would not consider a glue on shoe for that foot. You can put one glue on on and not have to pull all of the other shoes. Also, you can use any pads and wedges etc with glue ons and they offer great support while letting a damaged hoof wall safely grow back.

I am in the Rochester area and know a couple amazing farriers here who specialize in complicated shoeing if you ever need any help.

JB
Jun. 9, 2011, 08:41 AM
OK, this kind of gets my hackles up a little because after the EFFORT it took to even find someone who both CAN and WILL do him and with his soundness being directly correlated to his farrier work being JustSo, to have somebody just lightly toss in a "Why don't you just" is a little ...um, :(.

There is no "Why don't you just" with this horse in the shoeing department. He wears shoes with full pads and fill, (which, is that even glueable???) and even has a wedge pad *behind* which I had to explain to the new farrier on the phone so I have already had one round of Justifying The Shoeing Choices this week, and has been done over 6 years by 8 farriers in four different states, one of whom does the olympic team, and another of whom teaches at Cornell, during which time period he has never been sounder than when he was being just exactly how he was done by the guy in TX. (And none of these farriers has EVER suggested glue-ons for this horse, for whatever reason so...maybe ask them why not?)

So the long answer is above, and the short answer to your question is "because I just walked through fire and pulled out half my hair and basically moved a mountain and spent $275 to get him done JustExactlySo and I sure as shizzle ain't pulling them off again to "just" try glue-ons on a whim."


However, if you have any ideas on casts, which was the original topic, I'm all ears.

Thank you very much, Petstorejunkie, for the video. That is very, very helpful.
Good grief, it was a honest suggestion base on very little information provided in the OP.

A polite "thanks for the suggestion but here's why I can't do that" would have sufficed, instead of jumping all over her, especially since you obviously aren't aware of what the options are with glue on shoes.

At least CBoylen didn't assume there was a reason glue-ons couldn't be used.

meupatdoes
Jun. 9, 2011, 09:07 AM
Not sleeping well these days? Good grief, it was a honest suggestion base on very little information provided in the OP.

A polite "thanks for the suggestion but here's why I can't do that" would have sufficed, instead of jumping all over her, especially since you obviously don't even know what the options are with glue on shoes.

At least CBoylen didn't assume (remember that?) there was a reason glue-ons couldn't be used.

Maybe ...just maybe... I have been weighing the options of how to best get my horse done for several years during the course of owning him and between me and the farriers we know glue ons exist but have chosen this other method for whatever reason, and perhaps it isn't actually helpful when I ask about CASTS after the lengths I have just gone to to get THIS PARTICULAR shoeing job put on this afternoon to say, "Well why not just completely scrap it and do this other thing" as if we hadn't considered them.

The point of this thread was not to justify why I haven't done whatever other shoeing method, the point was specifically to ask where I can find casts.

Once again, in this thread I asked for advice for where I can get casts. Wondering why I didn't pick glueons instead does not tell me where to get casts, and tangential lectures on why I should be open to ripping the whole shoeing job off and putting glue-ons on instead of casts does also not tell me where to get casts. Asking me to justify his shoeing job to people who will never shoe him also tells me nothing about casts.

The ship really has sailed on what shoes he has on now and I will not be ripping them off to do whatever else 24 hours after just putting them on so perhaps if a responder does NOT intend to include any information about casts and just wants to lecture me about something entirely different instead we could just agree from the start it is inapposite to the question I specifically asked.

Thanks.

JB
Jun. 9, 2011, 09:09 AM
Maybe ...just maybe... I have been weighing the options of how to best get my horse done for several years during the course of owning him and between me and the farriers we know glue ons exist but have chosen this other method for whatever reason, and perhaps it isn't actually helpful when I ask about CASTS after the lengths I have just gone to to get THIS PARTICULAR shoeing job
And everyone reading this thread knew that?

I'll be sure to never offer a suggestion or alternative to any of your questions for fear of being jumped on for not knowing information you didn't give.

M. O'Connor
Jun. 9, 2011, 09:15 AM
Why can't you just have the shoes glued on?

This is the solution that will be most effective for you, IME. If you use glue, the horse's feet can't get too wet (no morning dew, rain, and not too many full baths), but the truth is "no foot, no horse," as the saying goes, and you reach a certain point where nails just cause more destruction. Mainly you need a really good farrier, who is experienced with all sorts of solutions, and most importantly, doesn't mind coming back in between normal visits on a regular basis.

We went through this issue with a boarder several years ago. In addition to getting him on a double-dose of hoof supplement with the highest concentration of biotin I could find (Grand Hoof Pellets MSM) in order to grow out 'new' feet, we used glue-on shoes till there was enough decent quality hoof to get nails into.

We attempted using Equicast a few times...it was ok to start with, but wouldn't hold for more than a week or so over the shoes. We had a bit more luck with it at the point where the "old" hoof was still there, but the new foot coming down on top of it hadn't yet grown out sufficiently to 'catch' the nails.

In any case growing out a set of feet as bad as you describe is a labor intensive project involving MANY farrier visits--no way is a horse with very bad feet going to go a full cycle; the trick is to be able to anticipate when the shoes need resetting / checking in advance of coming off. Duct tape/gorilla tape, and bell boots are your friends, but use too 'much' and they will always get stepped on with predicitable (shoe comes off) consequences.

meupatdoes
Jun. 9, 2011, 09:23 AM
I think it is a natural question as to why your farrier would not consider a glue on shoe for that foot.

Perhaps it is, but honestly, at this point, I just want to know where I can get casts. I would prefer not to have to justify/defend/elaborate on my shoeing choices to a world of strangers who will never shoe him or meet him when all I wanted was distributor information for a particular product.

I really hope people can be ok with that.

fordtraktor
Jun. 9, 2011, 09:25 AM
Here's another off the wall thought -- perhaps if the horse's legs and feet and behavior are so bad that the mere mention of a perfectly legitimate option inspires that much rudeness and angst, while only resulting in a horse that is "sounder," you should pull all its shoes and retire it to something less taxing on its 4 different feet. :rolleyes:

meupatdoes
Jun. 9, 2011, 09:38 AM
And everyone reading this thread knew that?

I'll be sure to never offer a suggestion or alternative to any of your questions for fear of being jumped on for not knowing information you didn't give.

Really if you could just refrain from answering questions I didn't ask and just give the specific information the OP specifically requested, we'll do just fine.

Repeatedly attacking me on this thread also does not tell me where I can get casts.




HOWEVER.


I just got off the phone with the nice people at Afton Farrier Services who I found through one of the helpful links above, and the casts have been ordered so at this point I am all set and just waiting for them to come in the mail.

Thank you very much for the people who did respond about casts; thanks to your quick responses it appears they will arrive tomorrow. Not bad for a question I asked at COB yesterday! I did get great customer service and personalized help through that link and it seems they are going to arrive zippy skippy so I really appreciate it.

meupatdoes
Jun. 9, 2011, 09:47 AM
Here's another off the wall thought -- perhaps if the horse's legs and feet and behavior are so bad that the mere mention of a perfectly legitimate option inspires that much rudeness and angst, while only resulting in a horse that is "sounder," you should pull all its shoes and retire it to something less taxing on its 4 different feet. :rolleyes:

What on earth.

Asking people to stick to answering a simple question and not try to reinvent the shoeing wheel for a horse they never met can not be that unreasonable.

For the record, in the year and a half he had those shoes on he got ribbons at AA rated shows in the hunter ring and on the dressage side of things went from schooling Second to playing with some FEI moves and we did not have lapses in training time due to mystery soreness and pulled shoes. But I can be honest, flat out retiring my 9yo horse who is ring-ready in two disciplines had not occurred to me, so that is a new one.

Thanks for your kind suggestion but upon consideration (brief, yes, but consideration indeed), I think I'll stick to the original plan of, you know, NOT throwing my horse away entirely.

Jesus Christ, we are not even 20 posts in and already "Where can I get casts" has turned into people telling me to retire the horse so gee, I wonder why anyone would get defensive?:

tarynls
Jun. 9, 2011, 10:24 AM
Perhaps it is, but honestly, at this point, I just want to know where I can get casts. I would prefer not to have to justify/defend/elaborate on my shoeing choices to a world of strangers who will never shoe him or meet him when all I wanted was distributor information for a particular product.

I really hope people can be ok with that.

Perhaps the next time, you can start a thread that simply says "Where to find casts in the Buffalo, NY area?" without going into the history of your horse's hoof problems. Then people might *JUST* answer your question rather than trying to offer other solutions that might work BETTER than casts.

If all you wanted was distributor information for hoof casts, Google is your friend. :) A simple search of "hoof casts ny" brings up the website for Equicast as the third response.

wanderlust
Jun. 9, 2011, 11:05 AM
Wow... just wow.

The beauty of threads like this is that other people may do a search at some point on casts, and be thrilled to learn there is an option like glue-ons.

Just because you asked the original question doesn't mean you get to moderate all responses, and your completely maniacal reply to CBoylen's simple question was really something else.

Sometimes, just sometimes, when you think it is everyone else, it is really you.

meupatdoes
Jun. 9, 2011, 12:16 PM
Wow... just wow.

The beauty of threads like this is that other people may do a search at some point on casts, and be thrilled to learn there is an option like glue-ons.
Just because you asked the original question doesn't mean you get to moderate all responses, and your completely maniacal reply to CBoylen's simple question was really something else.

Sometimes, just sometimes, when you think it is everyone else, it is really you.



OK, this kind of gets my hackles up a little because after the EFFORT it took to even find someone who both CAN and WILL do him and with his soundness being directly correlated to his farrier work being JustSo, to have somebody just lightly toss in a "Why don't you just" is a little ...um, :(.

This is maniacal?
That is not even aggressive.

Saying, in direct response to a question, that no fewer than 8 highly qualified farriers have not suggested glue-ons for the horse is maniacal? (For the record I asked Steve Teachman about them years ago when we lived in NJ and it was pulling shoes and for whatever reason he didn't think it was best for the horse at the time. Now it lives in what can best be described as a monsooning swamp with "unheard of" levels of rainy weather this year so the person who was saying above 'don't get them too wet' was on to something. Avoid morning dew? We are past morning dew here. Believe me, I arrived and was duly horrified.)

Justifying my shoeing decisions when directly asked to justify my shoeing decisions is maniacal?


And you coming in to the thread **just** to throw in some drive by insults with absolutely no intention of offering any answer to the question I originally asked, well after the casts have been found and ordered, is ...?

tarynls
Jun. 9, 2011, 01:20 PM
For the record I asked Steve Teachman about them years ago when we lived in NJ.....

His last name is spelled Teichman. I corrected your spelling just in case someone tried to look him up.

You seem to have misinterpreted CBoylen's one-sentance post... not once, but twice. Not in a very nice way, either...as no one suggested to "try glue-ons on a whim" OR rip the current shoes off and start over with glue-ons ASAP.


"because I just walked through fire and pulled out half my hair and basically moved a mountain and spent $275 to get him done JustExactlySo and I sure as shizzle ain't pulling them off again to "just" try glue-ons on a whim."



Wondering why I didn't pick glueons instead does not tell me where to get casts, and tangential lectures on why I should be open to ripping the whole shoeing job off and putting glue-ons on instead of casts does also not tell me where to get casts.

smurabito
Jun. 9, 2011, 01:34 PM
I have to plead ignorance to this but if you are putting casts over shoes, wouldn't that be sort of the same as a glue on? I thought the video showed putting the shoe on over the cast not under, is that correct or can it e done either way? Just curious as that I have never seen/heard of casts.

meupatdoes
Jun. 9, 2011, 01:34 PM
Acutally, his last name is spelled Teichman. I corrected your spelling just in case someone tried to look him up.

Thanks.

He is really great and did a very nice job with the horse so I would recommend him to anyone and hope that somebody WILL look him up.

I hate switching from a good farrier; it is always one of the worst things about moving.

ETA:
Since you edited your post after I responded to you, I really have to ask how I am supposed to consider glue ons without considering how to get them on the horse. The current shoes would have to be taken off again and the impact that would have on the integrity of the remaining hoof wall is obviously a consideration. Just standing there and looking at the horse after he is already shod and saying, "Yes, before we put these shoes on we could have done glue ons, but we didn't," is sort of pointless. I can't go back in time and do anything about it.

Jumper_girl221
Jun. 9, 2011, 01:51 PM
I have to plead ignorance to this but if you are putting casts over shoes, wouldn't that be sort of the same as a glue on? I thought the video showed putting the shoe on over the cast not under, is that correct or can it e done either way? Just curious as that I have never seen/heard of casts.

I have a friend that used them on her mare when growing out her feet. She started out with them under shoes, then progressed to just casting with boots for riding. Now the mare has pretty much a new foot so she doesn't need to do anything special.

When my mare was having issues losing her shoes, I just pulled them and gave her the 6 weeks off so she could grow out the nail holes, then didn't have a problem...but I understand not wanting to do it during competition season.

OP-I hope the casts work for you!

Monica67
Jun. 9, 2011, 02:33 PM
Dayum I think you need a cast for your attitude.

For a poster that has more than 3k posts to their name, you should have an idea that no matter what you ask on this board, you will get replies that may be "inapposite".

Next time instead of your lengthy post which opens the thread to "inapposite" replies, try just asking a simple question.

Beam Me Up
Jun. 9, 2011, 02:56 PM
I have to plead ignorance to this but if you are putting casts over shoes, wouldn't that be sort of the same as a glue on? I thought the video showed putting the shoe on over the cast not under, is that correct or can it e done either way? Just curious as that I have never seen/heard of casts.

That is how my farrier has done it for me in the past (under the shoes--so the feet don't have to hold nails). And if there's interest I'd be happy to go into the pros/cons of that vs. glue-ons which we've also done, but it sounds like that's not the question--it sounds like the OP's situation is that she already had shoes on, with nails, and wants to protect them from getting yanked off, which sounds like a different usage.

meupatdoes
Jun. 9, 2011, 02:58 PM
Dayum I think you need a cast for your attitude.

For a poster that has more than 3k posts to their name, you should have an idea that no matter what you ask on this board, you will get replies that may be "inapposite".

Next time instead of your lengthy post which opens the thread to "inapposite" replies, try just asking a simple question.

So let me see if I get this straight.

I ask, "Where can I get some casts?" (see: thread title)

Somebody says, 'Why not just do glue ons?"

I (who quite like CBoylen, actually) say, "Honestly, that kind of gets my hackles up because I have basically been through the war and back with this horse when he starts to pull shoes, and right now I just want to know about casts not justify his whole shoeing history, but, if you must know and since you asked, 8 highly qualified farriers have never recommended glue ons for this horse," and thank the posters who gave info on casts.

So someone asks me to justify his shoeing, and I do it (without invective and without any exclamation points or the like).

This is then deemed entirely out of line (really? read it again. I did not freak out, I just said, "Honestly, this gets my hackles up a little" because I don't want to have to justify the whole shoeing history) and now I am supposed to graciously listen to people telling me I am crazy, my horse is badly behaved (??), unsound, and ought to be retired, I need medication and anger management (posted but deleted), I am "maniacal", and now you and several others are dropping by just to add a little extra gratuitous insulting (but of course no info on casts) in for good measure.

But I am the one who overreacts and has anger problems, apparently.



ANYWAY.
Thank you to the others who are pitching in with their personal experiences with casts. Yes I am thinking of putting them over the shoes. Apparently you can do this, they just wear out really fast (like, 10-14 days) and need to be replaced. Under is an option for the next shoe cycle but nail holes are precious and I think the ship has sailed on that for this go round.

Big_Grey_hunter
Jun. 9, 2011, 03:11 PM
Every time you post, I'm reminded of how happy I am to not deal with you in real life.

After 5 years, how have you not learned that you are not supreme overlord of all suggestions just because you started the thread. This isn't a Q&A board, it's a discussion board. That means people will discuss and offer suggestions.

Monica67
Jun. 9, 2011, 03:16 PM
Every time you post, I'm reminded of how happy I am to not deal with you in real life.

After 5 years, how have you not learned that you are not supreme overlord of all suggestions just because you started the thread. This isn't a Q&A board, it's a discussion board. That means people will discuss and offer suggestions.

I like you Big Grey Hunter! Come sit by me. :winkgrin:

meupatdoes
Jun. 9, 2011, 03:19 PM
Every time you post, I'm reminded of how happy I am to not deal with you in real life.

After 5 years, how have you not learned that you are not supreme overlord of all suggestions just because you started the thread. This isn't a Q&A board, it's a discussion board. That means people will discuss and offer suggestions.

I am really starting to wonder how many individuals will dedicate a post on this thread SOLELY for the purpose of lobbing an insult (just to really drive home, I guess, what a jerk *I* am).

But I guess that counts as "discussion" to some.


Thanks again though to the others who have been helpful.

hntrjmprpro45
Jun. 9, 2011, 06:42 PM
The whole point of this forum is to have discussions which include different opinions. Anytime someone offers a different opinion or suggestion it is probably because they are making sure you didn't over look another option. It may seem stupid to you since you are well aware of the other options BUT some people may overlook glue ons.

Back to the topic... If 8 highly qualified farriers have looked at this horse and did not recommend glue ons, did they actually recommend casts? If so, why didn't THEY give you the information on it or try doing it themselves?

Obviously casts are a good solution for many horses but if it is specialized enough that not all farriers are comfortable putting them on, (or prefer to use them) then are you sure that you should do it yourself? Honest question, not trying to be snarky...

meupatdoes
Jun. 9, 2011, 07:06 PM
Obviously casts are a good solution for many horses but if it is specialized enough that not all farriers are comfortable putting them on, (or prefer to use them) then are you sure that you should do it yourself? Honest question, not trying to be snarky...

Honestly, no, I am not sure.

I have seen the TX farrier use casts on other horses in the barn, but he did not use them on mine. Then again, the horse did not pull shoes in TX.

I have heard people on COTH saying they use them and love them and put them on themselves all the time.

When I called the equicast supply place first they told me, "Yes, perfect for your situation!" and then they called back and said, "Oh, over the shoes? That's still fine but will only last ten days or so."

Right now this shoe pulling situation has happened at the worst time, right when I am in the middle of transitioning farriers against my will (haha, no offense to the new guy but I did love the TX farrier); on the one hand I know the horse will be a never ending MESS to shoe if he keeps pulling shoes so I want to do everything possible to prevent it, on the other hand I don't want to rock the boat on the shoeing situation he has now as it really works for him.

So I am doing little circles in my head.
Yes, give it a try.
No, just limit turn out and ride sparingly for a cycle or two.
Yes, what can it hurt?
No, what if I mess it up?
Maybe he'll keep the shoe on fine now that he's trimmed up and freshly done.
Maybe he'll pull it again right away riding on grass instead of a sand ring like in TX.

If I proactively change stuff and it backfires, well then I shouldn't have changed it.

If I keep everything the same and he pulls the shoe again, well then I should have made a switch earlier.

So honestly?
No. I'm not sure.

But do I want to overhaul the shoe job entirely and do something totally different? Not necessarily that either. Probably less that than any of the other options.

Maybe just leave it as is and hope for 8 weeks. Get religion.

But I have been doing this angsting off and on for 6 years everytime he goes through a shoe pulling phase so it is part of owning the horse. Everything is fine for months and then BOOM he pulls one shoe and the cycle starts again. Then I spin spin spin my "what if" and "well what about" wheels and spin spin spin some more.

Beam Me Up
Jun. 9, 2011, 07:31 PM
Obviously casts are a good solution for many horses but if it is specialized enough that not all farriers are comfortable putting them on, (or prefer to use them) then are you sure that you should do it yourself? Honest question, not trying to be snarky...

FWIW my farrier told me that I could (and should) apply one if the existing one comes off, just to stop hoof breakage. That it would be better than my usual diaper/duct tape wrap. I have not attempted that yet, but from watching it done it doesn't appear impossible, if a little intimidating. If it gets really messed up it would be a PITA to remove once hardened, but I don't think there's great danger of injury.

It sounds like the only group who really uses these frequently are the barefoot people--they can protect the foot without technically using a shoe, and that the shod applications are kind of new. If you know any barefoot trimmers in your area maybe they would let you watch an application, or do your horse the first time?

Amchara
Jun. 9, 2011, 07:42 PM
This horse recently lost a cast, you can ask where they left it and go get some casts there.

http://s1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff495/mckenzie_bomber/Hooves/?action=view&current=6511028.jpg

meupatdoes
Jun. 9, 2011, 07:53 PM
FWIW my farrier told me that I could (and should) apply one if the existing one comes off, just to stop hoof breakage. That it would be better than my usual diaper/duct tape wrap. I have not attempted that yet, but from watching it done it doesn't appear impossible, if a little intimidating. If it gets really messed up it would be a PITA to remove once hardened, but I don't think there's great danger of injury.

Thank you for mentioning this.
I was thinking if I get them and then chicken out at least I could have one around to protect the foot if he does pull the shoe again.

Honestly I could just cry to feel a "shoe pulling cycle" looming when the horse was going like gangbusters and I have just moved to a new place and don't feel on firm footing with the new farriers/vets/barn owners/anything yet, so I really appreciate your sharing your thoughts. The barefoot trimmer overseeing the first attempt is a good idea too, I think.

Amcharra I don't want to make any assumptions about your post so I'll just say I really don't know what to make of it.

hntrjmprpro45
Jun. 9, 2011, 08:53 PM
Honestly, no, I am not sure.

I have seen the TX farrier use casts on other horses in the barn, but he did not use them on mine. Then again, the horse did not pull shoes in TX.

I have heard people on COTH saying they use them and love them and put them on themselves all the time.

When I called the equicast supply place first they told me, "Yes, perfect for your situation!" and then they called back and said, "Oh, over the shoes? That's still fine but will only last ten days or so."

Right now this shoe pulling situation has happened at the worst time, right when I am in the middle of transitioning farriers against my will (haha, no offense to the new guy but I did love the TX farrier); on the one hand I know the horse will be a never ending MESS to shoe if he keeps pulling shoes so I want to do everything possible to prevent it, on the other hand I don't want to rock the boat on the shoeing situation he has now as it really works for him.

So I am doing little circles in my head.
Yes, give it a try.
No, just limit turn out and ride sparingly for a cycle or two.
Yes, what can it hurt?
No, what if I mess it up?
Maybe he'll keep the shoe on fine now that he's trimmed up and freshly done.
Maybe he'll pull it again right away riding on grass instead of a sand ring like in TX.

If I proactively change stuff and it backfires, well then I shouldn't have changed it.

If I keep everything the same and he pulls the shoe again, well then I should have made a switch earlier.

So honestly?
No. I'm not sure.

But do I want to overhaul the shoe job entirely and do something totally different? Not necessarily that either. Probably less that than any of the other options.

Maybe just leave it as is and hope for 8 weeks. Get religion.

But I have been doing this angsting off and on for 6 years everytime he goes through a shoe pulling phase so it is part of owning the horse. Everything is fine for months and then BOOM he pulls one shoe and the cycle starts again. Then I spin spin spin my "what if" and "well what about" wheels and spin spin spin some more.

I can sympathize with that. We had a horse that had super brittle feet + one clubbed foot + a big over step with his hind legs which meant he was tearing out shoes left and right. We considered the options and decided to pull shoes, try some different supplements and give him time to regrow his hoof wall.

Our farrier said casts were an option but he wasn't 100% confident which meant that I wasn't. So I went with the less risky but more time consuming choice of giving him time off.

I will say one of the biggest things that has helped with our guy has been limiting his exposure to "the elements"- extreme heat/cold, dry/hard ground or wet/muddy ground. I think some horse's hoof walls just can't handle handle the expansion/contraction caused by changes in their environment. It's been a pain sometimes but has helped his crappy hooves!

Good luck and I hope you find a solution that works for your guy!

tarynls
Jun. 9, 2011, 10:05 PM
Since you edited your post after I responded to you, I really have to ask how I am supposed to consider glue ons without considering how to get them on the horse. The current shoes would have to be taken off again and the impact that would have on the integrity of the remaining hoof wall is obviously a consideration. Just standing there and looking at the horse after he is already shod and saying, "Yes, before we put these shoes on we could have done glue ons, but we didn't," is sort of pointless. I can't go back in time and do anything about it.

I took CBoylen's suggestion of glue-ons as something to be considered in the future - ie. for the next shoeing cycle, NOT something to be done right now.

My husband is a very well regarded farrier in our area. Yes, hindsight is indeed 20/20.

Regardless, a glue-on such as the Sigafoos Series II shoe does not require nails for application. If your farrier is talented with a pair of crease nail pullers, he'she should be able to remove the nails without further damage to the integrity of the hoof wall.

-or- Have you considered leaving the shoe on and building up the hoof wall with Adhere or a similar product? As long as the hoof is completely dry, it will bond well and should hold despite your wet conditions. Adhere, along with the other Vettec products, has a urethane base and as such, bonds to the first thing it comes into contact with. If the foot is wet or moist, it will bond to the water molecules and will not last. However, if your farrier is experienced with the product, he/she should have a heat gun to make sure the hoof is dry as a bone before application.

Instant Karma
Jun. 9, 2011, 10:11 PM
Why are you always so defensive? I thought the same exact thing as CBoylen did when I read your first post. And I have a horse (now retired due to unrelated injury) that had to be shod EXACTLY the way you say your boy is! So I would have only suggested it with kindness in my heart, as glue ons did such a world of good for my boy.

A cast, I cant help you with. Ive been here for a LONG time but post very little. I would have asked about glue ons thinking hey, maybe this is something she hasn't thought about. Not everyone knows about glue on shoes so how is CBoylen supposed to know that thought has even come into your head. Heck... all the issues I had with my boy and I never even heard the word cast in regards to wrapping up a foot!

I guess people have to know your whole life story before they post any type of response to you or else you will be offended:rolleyes:

Geez, makes ya second guess even trying to be helpful!

texan
Jun. 9, 2011, 10:18 PM
cBoylen, because glue on shoes are usually done with aluminums, i would imagine, they wouldn't give enough support to this particular horse. Horse is wearing wedges and pads, which kinda indicates this particular guy needs all the support he can get. Aluminums wouldn't do that job.
To the OP, I really understand how you feel, i have a very hard to shoe horse, that requires special treatment. It can be really frustrating.
Would really like to know how he is pulling shoes, could be a simple matter of shoe set a bit to far back....just my 2 cents worth....

CBoylen
Jun. 9, 2011, 10:49 PM
Wow, sorry, I thought that was one of the least offensive posts I've ever written. :lol: I was hoping it would be an easier solution for you than casting, which seems quite temporary, and also allow feet to grow out without losing shoes so that there would be something to nail to in the future. I didn't want you to justify the shoeing, by any means. It was just what came to mind immediately, since I've had and seen horses with glue ons forever, but have only ever seen one cast that I can recall, and that was on a horse with a broken coffin bone.

Amchara
Jun. 9, 2011, 11:00 PM
That horse had TWO equicasts on, lost one in turn out just getting up from the ground, and that is the hoof that was underneath the wraps.

fordtraktor
Jun. 9, 2011, 11:03 PM
:eek: That is super-scary!


This horse recently lost a cast, you can ask where they left it and go get some casts there.

http://s1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff495/mckenzie_bomber/Hooves/?action=view&current=6511028.jpg

meupatdoes
Jun. 10, 2011, 03:42 AM
Wow, sorry, I thought that was one of the least offensive posts I've ever written. :lol: I was hoping it would be an easier solution for you than casting, which seems quite temporary, and also allow feet to grow out without losing shoes so that there would be something to nail to in the future. I didn't want you to justify the shoeing, by any means. It was just what came to mind immediately, since I've had and seen horses with glue ons forever, but have only ever seen one cast that I can recall, and that was on a horse with a broken coffin bone.

Hey, I just want to say that I really like you as a COTH poster and obviously have huge respect for what you have done with your horses.

I could go into detail why I have been absolutely AGONIZING over the shoeing of this horse since February of this year and how literally *months* of planning went into trying to switch this horse over smoothly upon moving, and how completely and utterly it was all for naught, but honestly it is too exhausting of a saga to even recount. Suffice to say at this point I am glad there are four shoes on the horse AT ALL.

Either way, you are one of my favorite posters on COTH so hearing, after all of these months of trial and tribulation to keep the farriery going upon moving, that maybe you of all people who I really respect thought I had done the wrong thing after all and should have done something else was really tough. I did not intend for my response to be aggressive but probably I am not in a state of mind to objectively assess so I apologize.

meupatdoes
Jun. 10, 2011, 03:46 AM
That horse had TWO equicasts on, lost one in turn out just getting up from the ground, and that is the hoof that was underneath the wraps.

Was the horse wearing an equicast because its hoofwall was shelly, or was its hoofwall shelly because of the equicast?

This information is vital to the proper interpretation of that picture.

Big_Grey_hunter
Jun. 10, 2011, 07:44 AM
I like you Big Grey Hunter! Come sit by me. :winkgrin:

I'll bring the popcorn if you bring the drinks :D

mvp
Jun. 10, 2011, 08:34 AM
I feel your pain with moving causing the search for a new farrier. (When I get to choose where I'll move next, one of my first questions will be "Yes barns and cheap real estate and good schools and no traffic, yada, yada... but is there a *technical* farrier in the area?").

A DVM friend of mine who used casts on naked feet of one of her own horses noted phenomenal hoof growth. No explanation as to why, but she pointed this out and it might be a great side effect for you.

I'd certainly try it and I'd start with Equicasts for the tech support that comes with them. JMO.

Hope these work out for you, OP, and that you'll let us know what happens.

Amchara
Jun. 10, 2011, 05:29 PM
Probably a bit of both. They didn't want to do glue-ons and couldn't keep a shoe nailed, so they stuck its feet in casts and nailed to that, which they've been doing for two or three years now. Every time she pulls a cast/show the hoof looks exactly like that underneath, so I'd say the problem of no hoof to nail to is not being solved.

STA
Jun. 10, 2011, 06:07 PM
CBoylen, please do not let the response to your post make you hesitate the next time you have a comment.

You answers over the years, I have been, on COTH have been helpful to many, logical, and from a person very knowledgable.

Although the OP did not appreciate your post many of us have appreciated your thoughtfulness.

CBoylen
Jun. 10, 2011, 10:02 PM
Thanks meupatdoes, and don't worry about it! I probably should have spent a little more time on my response, so that it would have sounded more helpful, and not critical, to someone invested in the situation. Call it a casualty of a really busy week!

EqTrainer
Jun. 10, 2011, 11:16 PM
Probably a bit of both. They didn't want to do glue-ons and couldn't keep a shoe nailed, so they stuck its feet in casts and nailed to that, which they've been doing for two or three years now. Every time she pulls a cast/show the hoof looks exactly like that underneath, so I'd say the problem of no hoof to nail to is not being solved.

How bizarre. Cant say I would blame that on the cast, they usually grow foot like a maniac in them. Add a little equipak and stand back!:lol:

horsecents
Jun. 16, 2011, 10:52 PM
http://naturefarmsfarriersupply.com/catalog.php?action=list&category=Hoof+Care+Products

outside course
Jun. 17, 2011, 03:38 PM
Equicasts can be bought on line.. I have used them successfully on horses who have pulled a shoe a bunch of times and can not afford to lose it again. They last about 5 days . less if wet or humid. Is good short term solution , not long term because of some issues mentioned above.

Spud&Saf
Jun. 17, 2011, 04:51 PM
You might have some luck with the equilox products for your horse also, if not in your current scenario but for the future as well.

http://www.equilox.com/whyEquilox/whyEquilox.html