Coloring mottled eyes black for hunter shows - Help!!

[Daventry]

We just bought probably THE best pony hunter prospect I've ever had in. She's a 10 over fences, on the flat, conformation and will model. The problem is that she's a POA and has mottling around the eyes. She has a gorgeous head and does not have the typical white Appy sclera but does have that pink and black mottling around the eye itself. I've included a photo of what it looks like (can't take a picture of the actual pony as we haven't picked her up yet).

Mottled eye (http://www.daventryfarms.com/apeye.jpg)

I've had someone tell me I can color it black with an eyeliner pencil and another lady tell me that, on the paint horse circuit, they take a fine paintbrush, dip it in hoof black and paint around the eyes and that it will stain it black for up to two weeks http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif (I think I will talk to my vet first before attempting that one)

This pony will end up showing on the US hunter circuit and, regardless of what people's opinions of her eye are, some judges will end up docking her, especially in the models. Please, I don't want to turn this into a discussion of what Judge A or Judge B would do or tell me to show her natural, etc., etc. I'm going to be blackening her eyes regardless of what anyone says...I know somebody out there has a trick!

[Mel0309]

You can also have it tatooed. Lots of people on the paint and app circuit do it. I'm not sure if it is legal but I also don't think they could catch it.

Talk to your vet about it.

My mom had her eyeliner and eyebrows tatooed. She talked to the lady who did it and she said she would do a horse if needed. I'm sure drugs would have to be involved what ever you do unless the pony doesn't mind you getting all up in her eyeball.

Good luck.

[findeight]

These things are done. Not too good for the horse and can, and does, cause problems. Infection, chronic irritation plus you cannot get it off without rubbing it into the eye or really rubbing on that tender skin. But it looks good so who cares?

Be aware that altering a horse's markings is against USEF rules and constitutes a fraud in some cases. You can expect to be protested if anyone sees you doing it.

'course I see you are in Canada and maybe they don't care.

[Daventry]

findeight, I totally agree with you but for many of the US hunter trainers, it could mean the difference of her selling for $15,000 or $50,000. It doesn't make it right but it's still going to be inevitable once she starts competing in the US.

Mel0309, I had looked into tatooing a lesson horse of ours, years ago, who had a bald face and blue eyes and the sunlight in the summer and the glare off the snow in the winter time caused major problems, to the point that she lived in a fly mask 365 days a year. At that time, the procedure was incredibly expensive.

[OneonOne]

Daventry, I posted a couple of links about eye tattoos on your Horse Care thread. It seems that the procedure is becoming more common with the APHA.

I'd urge you to consider the legality of the procedure with USEF, however. If they pony is found to be in violation of a rule due to a permanent marking change, it won't matter what its value is if it is suspended!

[Wild Oaks Farm]

Arab people use an actualy "eye makeup for horses." It is available in black. You wipe it on around their eyes before their classes and can take it off afterwards. However, it may be shiny. Maybe there is something you could mix it with to make it matte?

[findeight]

Arabs have been doing it forever but not to change anything...to enhance it.

Still has alot of complications possible for the horse. It's expensive because it is illegal if it changes anything on any animal competing in USEF. Permanent suspension of the animal and a fine for you. Also a fraud if you do not disclose to a buyer the area around the eye has been altered that can lead to legal problems and a possible felony charge.

It's not safe for the horse and it's a lie on your part to cover something up.

[findeight]

It's going to be somewhere in the general rules as it pertains to any breed exhibiting in USEF shows.


And you are still changing the markings for show purposes even if it's only mascara if you are covering up pink spots.

[Daventry]

Found it:

USEF GR319 Artificial Markings and Appliances:

Any change of color or markings other than mane, tail or hoof is prohibited. (exception Arabian or Half/Anglo-Arabian Halter, Reining Division, Friesian Division) Only clear grooming materials are allowed on the hide and hair. Materials may be used to remove stains.

[Magnolia]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>some judges will end up docking her, especially in the models. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can understand being docked in the models (sort of) - although how is the motteling a conformation flaw?

And I'd hesitate to tattoo a horses eye even if it was legal - sounds like a short cut to making a head shy horse.

[Seahorsefarmtobe]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daventry:
I'm going to be blackening her eyes regardless of what anyone says...I know somebody out there has a trick! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
...don't even consider using hoof black on her face! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

[Pocket Pony]

All I can say is poor pony. It is disgusting to me the lengths that people go to in the name of the almighty dollar and the $1 show ribbon. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[findeight]

You want to do something illegal to show with in the USEF and it's our fault we said something?

I have friends with Arabs. They use some products. They've had chronic eye infection problems on ones that haul for more then a year or so from repeated use over time.

Your pony. Do what you want.

[horselesswonder]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> And people wonder why most of us aren't interested in posting on here anymore. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree that the BB can be nasty sometimes. But when you post about lining a pony's eyes with black hoof polish, I wouldn't expect all the responses to be sunshine and flowers. Frankly, I am surprised that you would even post that question. If you wanted to cover up a scar or a nick in the pony's coat, that would be one thing. But you are talking about possibly causing discomfort or damage to a pony's eyes.

[Pocket Pony]

You have to expect that people will disagree with you about an issue like this. When you post on a public forum, you open yourself up to other people's opinions, whether or not you like it. There are other people on this topic who have also been trying to discourage you, although albeit gently.

[OnyxThePony]

I have an easier solution http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif if the pony is so all-fire amazingly astoundingly good, then show it as it is, let the buyer buy it on it's own merit at the price you want, and let the buyer find the 'trick' to making her 'acceptable' in their own arena.
But didn't the highest priced pony at Devon go for $20oddK this year?

[displacedyank]

C'mon people, give her a break, she's looking for some kind of make-up for goodness sake. You know, the kind of stuff we put on ourselves on a daily basis?!?! I can think of a lot worse things that are done in other areas of riding. Think reining and tail blocks for instance!

Sorry Daventry, I don't have any ideas for you, but wish you luck (both in finding a solution and not getting too flamed).

[LH]

From a legal perspective, I'd be careful about altering the pony's appearance in a way that is expressly prohibited by the USEF (i.e., illegal for horse showing), and then selling the pony as a "horse show pony" with that intentional concealment.

Just food for thought.

[OnyxThePony]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> What a waste of time! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WOW!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I know that comment wasn't directed at me, but I do feel personally insulted and am embarrassed!!!
Regardless of wether you agree with people...to insinuate their comments are a 'waste of time"??!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[Pocket Pony]

Wait, it just hit me. Are you planning on doing this alteration so that you can put a picture of this sale pony on your website? Meaning you are going to be falsely advertising this pony so that you can interest the buyer who may not otherwise be interested in mottled eyes? And then, when the prospective buyer shows up to see the pony, how are you going to explain the difference in what they saw online and what they see in person?

It would seem to me, then, that you are purposely trying to deceive buyers, because you think that "eyeliner" is going to get you $35k more in a sale. Am I wrong?

[Magnolia]

I think people are doing you a favor, Daventry, by letting you know that the practice of covering up is illegal in the US at USEA shows. How would you feel if we gave you 15 great ideas, you brought the pony to Devon, used our ideas and got suspended?

[Barn Bum]

Hang on. I'm confused. I'm not REAL BIG into showing like A/A circuts and stuff like that just yet [only 13], but so it IS illegal to put some black-anything on the pony's eye according to the USEF rule?

Wt if you didn't put anything around her eyes?u wouldn't be able to show? If you were able to show, black eye or not, wouldn't her performance be enough?
I'M SO CONFUSED! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif


*NO HORSES TO SLAUGHTER
*BROKEN PONIES
Be glad for its imperfections.

[Pocket Pony]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If you were able to show, black eye or not, wouldn't her performance be enough.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen, Barn Bum.

[Seahorsefarmtobe]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daventry:
If you don't have any constructive ideas, please keep your opinions to yourself. And people wonder why most of us aren't interested in posting on here anymore. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gifAnd you're a BB GUIDE? Pot calling the kettle black, methinks! And, yes, PocketPony said it for me: anything in pursuit of the mighty dollar. Where does it end?

[Diva98]

Personally, I would recommend showing the pony as is. It is not a confirmation fault and if the pony models, moves and jumps a 10, you should have no problem being successful with it and getting top dollar. With all the different breeds now being shown with success in the hunters, I don't think you should worry about the ponies value being dramatically reduced because of the eye. We actually have a horse in the barn with the same issue - and she is a 10 mover and jumper and a sweetheart. It has never come up as an issue - she was just sold - and to the seller's great satisfaction.

Good luck - whatever you do, I am sure you will check with a vet and the USEF before you take action.

[Seahorsefarmtobe]

Daventry, successful business, perhaps. Honest???? Not from what you've said here. I wouldn't do business with you!

[DMK]

Just to clarify, the OP is not saying she wants to SHOW the pony with said makeup - she wants to advertise with a picture.

That ain't illegal. It's mostly likely not any more dangerous than the legal stuff many people use around the face to enhance appearances (pretty much a staple in every discipline except h/j, I might add). I'm not even sure you could make a case for it being uncomfortable, although I suppose we won't really know the answer to that, other than to say I haven't seen too many halter horses developing an aversion to the stuff being applied, so there is that...

All she wants to do is hide a flaw that someone might find objectionable in a pony priced a certain amount in order to entice them to come out and look at said pony.

Not illegal and it certainly appeals to the heart of many a madison avenue exec (Do you really think drinking beer makes women who look like supermodels flock to the side of your average joe?).

The real question the OP might want to ask herself is what are the repercussions to doing this. Will someone be pissed if they drive/fly X miles to see an animal billed as one thing, only to arrive and find it otherwise? I suspect some are just going to be mildly annoyed, however others might talk long and loud to everyone they know about their irritation. God help the OP if they are connected in the horse world, or at least MORE connected...

[Barn Bum]

Come on Daventry. Don't get upset. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif


*NO HORSES TO SLAUGHTER
*BROKEN PONIES
Be glad for its imperfections.

[Hidden Hill Farm]

Back off everyone!!!

Daventry is one of the most honest and reputable people I've ever met.

She would NEVER line the pony's eyes and sell it off of some phony picture. That's not what she's asking.

I could name a VERY fancy hunter that you would ALL know who was top in the country, and guess what, she had a visit with Miss Clairol before every horse show (and I'm sure she still does).


Anyway, I see nothing wrong with leaving the pony as is, but I would imagine that some waterproof hypo-allergenic eyeliner would do the trick for a photograph.

So, Daventry...tell me about this fancy pony of yours!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Seahorsefarmtobe]

OK, so she's just going to fluff a sale photo to get potential buyers to come take a look? Isn't that a classic bait-n-switch?

[DOME]

DAVENTRY SAID THAT SHE WOULD ABSOLUTELY SHOW A POTENTIAL BUYER BEFORE AND AFTER PICS OF THE PONIES EYES. Read the posts for content, not dissect them so you can FLAME FLAME FLAME.

This is daventry's pony, and daventry can and will do whatever she wants. If it is illegal, is it your problem? NO. If you don't agree with her practices, is it daventry's problem? NO.

Why can't ANYONE on this board just read a question and give a response without thoroughly berating a poster? There is a page of posts that were clearly a waste of space and typing time just so someone could get a rude and arbitrary comment thrown into the mix. Mature? NO. Satisfaction to the people who post these dumb comments? Maybe, but then again, "satisfaction" must have a real tainted definition on this board.

Sure, give your opinion, as we do have freedom of speech. But for crying out loud, leave the individual insults and belittling INSIDE your head!

[vxf111]

If all you want to do is alter her look for advertising, why not photoshop the picture and forget applying anything to the pony?

[findeight]

There are some products marketed to mainly Arab exhibitors that you can use.
Try Schneiders. I think they have a website.

I think you are over reacting to those spots though...we have some of the top ponies in the country pass through the barn. Some have a mottled eyelid, still win, lease for a year for more then most cars and they show without make up. Certainly wouldn't knock the price down by more then 5% in any case, not 60%.

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daventry:
Thanks HHF!

I'm not looking at deceiving anyone or lying. As already stated, I want to have before and after pictures for the really fancy hunter buyers to look at. There's NO WAY I would ever sell any animal without stating the facts up front and I would never allow anyone to waste their flight money to come and look at a pony they didn't know the details on up front.

Thanks for the comments but it's apparent I will have to go elsewhere for advice and that's OK. Maybe I'll try tracking down the famous pony Hidden Hill Farm spoke of and see what those owners do! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then it's all good, right? Although I'm working on the assumption that clairol ain't the answer to your question, and you sure as shit couldn't get it near MY eyes... that is, if I kne anything about such things as clairol. I mean I wouldn't want to admit to altering my appearance or anything like that...

Dome, there certainly is no shortage of posters with their panties in a wad, that's for sure.

[Daventry]

Actually, hearing that people use simple products like Clairol or comments about similar ponies showing naturally without experiencing any prejudice in the ring is exactly the kind of advice and ideas I'm looking for!

[QueenMother]

I'm a little confused.

why would the make-up in a picture increase the price of a hunter pony (even if you showed before and after) if it is illegal to use the make-up in the hunter ring at shows?

In order for the buyer to pay the enhanced price, wouldn't the buyer have to believe that she could use the make up at a show?

[Lucassb]

I confess I am more than a little confused.

You have said that you will show any prospective buyers the pony in before pics which will include the mottled eyes... fairly representing the pony for what she is.

Some buyers are going to object to this coloring and so will probably pass on this pony. Since you are going to disclose it ahead of time, there is nothing to be gained by covering up the mottling to these folks. If they object to the mottling, they are still going to pass. They can imagine all the options for defeating the rules just as well as you can.

DEMONSTRATING that you find the mottling offensive by taking pictures with an altered pony will only lead to the types of characterizations you have already heard - which is not going to enhance your reputation or add value to the pony's sale price.

Color bias is swiftly fading in the ranks of the big horseshows (which I assume is the market you are targeting at a $50k price point.) Look at the ones that are winning these days and I bet you will come to the conclusion that she can be shown naturally with no problem at all.

[DMK]

Actually, I assume (perhaps incorrectly) that anyone using clairol (which would include me, when it comes to my hunter - I plead the 5th on personal use) is using it to dye a tail. Very handy for those bays that get sunbleached streaks in their tails, although there is an art to it.

And yes, QueenMother, whoever buys the pony is working on one of several assumptions: They don't care about mottling and assume the judge doesn't either, they plan on altering its appearance and hope they don't get caught, or they hope the rule is changed and its all good.

Honestly, of all the rules a person could intentionally break, it's a pretty minor one, and I doubt it gets you much more than a slap on the wrist. I'm not certain I would do it, but then I am pretty certain I won't be buying a $50K pony with eye mottling any time soon, so its a moot point at best. Still, you always run the risk that if you win, people will try to bust you (and it will be relatively easy to do).

[Dalriada]

According to EC Rules (General Regs).

Article A813 Artificial Markings and Appliances
1. No horse may be presented with its identity concealed in any manner of paint or dye or any other substance. For interpretations, see the division rules.

2. Artificial appliances other than those permitted in division rules are prohibited.


In the division rules (Hunter/Jumper) no mention is made of Artificial Markings so it is assumed that the General Regs hold true.

False tails don't hide a horse's identity where as "makeup" does. Technically false tails should not be allowed in H/J classes but to date no protest has been made over this issue.

Beware of falsifying the pony's identity - you stand a good chance of getting caught. This warning comes from a friendly
EC Steward.

[Daventry]

It's all a matter of what an individual person perceives as aesthetically pleasing or not (that includes judges, trainers, owners and riders alike).

Up in Canada, it's not a problem at all as we don't have the same competitive, often cut-throat circuit, that they have down in the US. We also don't have the model hunters which counts as 25% of the overall Championship either. To say that stuff like that doesn't happen in Canada is denial though.

I know of a famous light palomino pony down East that was religiously died white monthly as the owners didn't like the dilute palomino color. After he was resold, the new owners showed him in his natural color.

Everybody is going to have a different opinion of what they like and what they don't, what they can get away with and what they can't. I'm sure there's lots of people that would opt to show a mottled eye pony natural but I also know some people that wouldn't. I just want to be able to provide photos on our website of the pony with natural eyes and the same pony done up to look more mainstream. It will be up to the buyer/owner to decide how they want to show.

[BLBGP]

Out of curiosity, has anyone here recently experienced blatant color bias in ponies at the A level? I know it still exists in 3'6" and up hunters sometimes, although a fabulous horse of color will still beat a not so fancy bay with chrome. But in poines I thought the color bias died out years ago. If the pony is otherwise a talented looker, mover and jumper, some coloring around the eye shouldn't even come into play. In fact, it would make it all the more memorable.

And since people seem awfully sensitive on this thread, perhaps I should clarify that this isn't an attack. Just an observation. An observation from the California show scene. Perhaps it's different in Canada. (edited to add - I just saw your post above me. we must have posted at the same time. so, no, in California I've never seen it as a problem. Definitely not in ponyland).

I also agree with the poster who mentioned that by you hiding it/showing the difference with and without it in your sales pictures you're only highlighting it as a BIG HUGE PROBLEM when in reality, it's not. But if I went to look at a pony and the seller was worked up over a small issue like that, it would definitely raise the caution flags in my head - "wow, is this actually a problem after all"?!

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wild Oaks Farm:
Arab people use an actualy "eye makeup for horses." It is available in black. You wipe it on around their eyes before their classes and can take it off afterwards. However, it may be shiny. Maybe there is something you could mix it with to make it matte? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Arab people *cannot* use "eye makeup".
It is grounds for disqualification.

I'll edit this to say "Arab people cannot use eye makeup on their horses. It is however, permissible for the exhibitor."

[Cindeye]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
All she wants to do is hide a flaw that someone might find objectionable in a pony priced a certain amount in order to entice them to come out and look at said pony. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thoughts that come to mind...
"Bait and switch"
"False advertising"
"Waste of my time and yours"

If you have to hide a horse's flaw to entice someone to come and see it, then that person probably isn't going to be interested in buying the horse anyway.

Personally, I don't see this as a flaw. I see it as character.

Davenport, regardless of whether or not you want to read my opinion, here it is. I'd be embarassed and ashamed to post this topic. Seems to me the pony had the eye mottling when you bought it...there must be quite a few buyers out there that can see past a minor cosmetic issue if the pony is as good a mover and jumper as you seem to think.

IMHO, this is just a short step away from the seller who initially told me that a horse we had on trial had "an old eye issue that turned out to be nothing." After our vet diagnosed cataracts and suggested calling in a specialist, the seller tried to tell me , "Oh, yeah...he was examined by an opthalmologist last year and he did find cataracts, but he said the cataracts were probably congenital and hadn't changed in 1 1/2 years, so there was no danger of his going blind." Clearly he got us to take the horse home on trial by "hiding the horse's flaws" hoping that we wouldn't notice or would become too attached to the horse to send him back.

I don't know how the seller sleeps at night knowing that some person more trusting and careless with their money might end up with a total loss if the horse does go blind.

Long story short, applying eye makeup to this horse to get it sold or to entice someone to look is a sure fire way to damage your reputation for being an honest, upstanding horseperson. Best business practice in my mind means FULL disclosure, no hiding or tricks.

My 2 cents.

[Seahorsefarmtobe]

I guess it doesn't matter if it is legal or not...if you're gonna do it anyway, why ask?
Yes, there are worse atrocities in the show ring than cosmetic coverups...but cheating just a little bit is just as bad as a major act of dishonesty, IMHO.

[Just My Style]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It's not really any different than say, a paint horse with blue eyes being tattoed to prevent cancer and uveitis. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, my large is a paint with blue eyes (and a medicine hat) and he showed in good company AND won. He usually had so many points over fences that the model was irrelevant anyway. Some judges loved him- others didn't, but isn't that the way of the hunters regardless of their "flaws". If he were mine, I wouldn't change a thing.

[Little Indian]

well I know there are plenty appy ponys out there on the A circuit (Glimmer! tak about molting!, El Nino, and others I cannot remember) all have done well at places such as Devon (wasn't Glimmer like the third leading medium in the country with the von Heidegger kid?) and honestly, when a pony is cantering down the lines or trotting in the hack, do you really think they are going to give a rat;s behind if the pony's eyes are molted?

[boobada]

I would just advertise and show the pony as-is. I too was under the impression the color-prejudice in the ponies died some time ago. If the pony is a truly fantabulous 10...it will sell for big $$$.

Why risk the health of a ponies eyes...I handle equine medical and mortality claims and have seen people do some ridiculous things to their horses....my question when insurance won't pay (which if something goes wrong they will not in this case) is "was it worth it"....a pony with mottled eyes is worth a good bit more than a pony with damaged eyes or a blind one....and trust me....no one EVER thinks it is going to go bad...until it does.

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lucassb:
I confess I am more than a little confused...


DEMONSTRATING that you find the mottling offensive by taking pictures with an altered pony will only lead to the types of characterizations you have already heard - which is not going to enhance your reputation or add value to the pony's sale price.

Color bias is swiftly fading in the ranks of the big horseshows (which I assume is the market you are targeting at a $50k price point.) Look at the ones that are winning these days and I bet you will come to the conclusion that she can be shown naturally with no problem at all. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It would also seem to me that yhe tactic might backfire by putting so much emphasis on what might otherwise be conseidered, at most, a minor flaw.

[Magnolia]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> just want to be able to provide photos on our website of the pony with natural eyes and the same pony done up to look more mainstream. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How about just photoshopping the photo to show what it would look like if one "doctored" the eyes? Kind of like the websites where you can "try on" hairstyles. But how would you caption the photo - it would just seem wierd....

[lmlacross]

This was my thought as well. Certianly no more or less deceptive than applying anything to the pony, and a whole lot less complicated.

LML

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by vxf111:
If all you want to do is alter her look for advertising, why not photoshop the picture and forget applying anything to the pony? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Tiramit]

OK, since the question was IF there's something that can be used to cover up the lighter areas, I'll answer that one of my show grooming books suggests mascara for this. I'm assuming a make-up brush or Q-tip would work.

*note this is in no way a comment for or against the coloring process - I've not done it myself, only know people who have one grey ponies with pink spots around their eyes. It is currently illegal, so I do not condone the process. Please do not flame me for answering her question. And yes, as DMK said, some of you do indeed have your panties in a wad. Lighten up guys! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[MistyBlue]

Daventry...check your PT's. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[barnie]

I'm with the group of folks that have said show the pony naturally.....BECAUSE, in the US, pony hunters have only one of their o/f classes where they are also judged on their conformation. It can not be counted for more than 25% of that one class (and in my experience often less http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). There is a model class, but you only get 1/2 pts for it and only if you are in the top 4 over fences. And some of the very top ponies in this country have been unusually marked, shall we say! That is my two cents!

[ShaSamour]

I'm not gonna comment one way or the other on the ethics or legality of this. All I want to add is be very careful of anything you use around your pony's eyes. Poking the pony accidentally during application, or getting some of the stuff in its eyes, or an allergic reaction ... I have a horse with recurrent uveitis (moonblindness) and lemme tell ya, an eye problem in a horse (even if it's temporary) is a pain in the backside.

[spotted mustang]

if there are really judges out there who discriminate against a pony because it has mottled eyes, why do you want to cater to their prejudice?

Why not take your spotted wonder-pony, mottles and all, ride well and put those judges to shame?

[CBoylen]

Ignoring all the controversy, as I think it is a moot point. If it bothers your buyer, and they like the rest of the pony, they will figure out how to fix it on their own. You should pretend that you don't notice it, that it doesn't bother you, and that you can't IMAGINE why someone would find it a price-reducing defect.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>But didn't the highest priced pony at Devon go for $20oddK this year? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not sure what you're referring to Onyx. Care to clarify? I'm certainly not certain what the purchase prices were of any of the ponies showing at Devon this year, but the prices of ponies definitely go higher than 20k. The good ponies would go for at least 10 times that much.

[Lupine Aura]

It might be the way of the world but I have to admit I'm saddened that this slight, harmless, and aparently not uncommon coloration of the skin around a pony's eyes can lower it's value so much.

[Raven's Wing]

I am absolutely disgusted. That horse is what it is. Stop the stupid games that give all of us a bad name. What a joke. And stop looking for the cheap outs -- well I am not the one doing the illegal things in the arena -- I am just mimiking the behavior in my advertising for them to follow when they go show. They are the bad ones not me. I didn't actually do it. I just did it in an ad. What a cop out.

[MistyBlue]

Not to play devil's advocate here, but there are perfectly harmless products that can be used around the eyes of horses/ponies for show or health (sunscreen) purposes.
Also, the OP never said they were going to try to hoodwink judges at shows or buyers with photos. They asked for a safe cosmetic solution to enhance a future sales pony's looks to help keep it's price equivilent with it's talent. And as many folks who are outraged over cosmetic enhancement, there are probably the same amount appalled by "Appy Eyes." They find them unattractive, or worry about judging, or assume Appy Eyes means a horse is nuts. Yes, lots of otherwise savvy horse people assume not only sclera but mottling means the horse is unhinged in the head.
If the first immediate impression means the difference between selling a pony for $30k as opposed to $50k...well most of us would consider $20k a big sales loss. The OP also never said they wanted the eyes blacked to trick buyers, but as a first impression sales photo on their website...where many others may look it over and form quick opinions about her business based on photos. The OP is telling buyers the pony is wearing cosmetics for the photo. And honestly...most sales horses in higher ranges are either cosmetically enhanced for the photo shoot or photo-shopped. Image means a lot as long as it isn't to the animal's detriment. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
JMHO. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Crosstrainer]

Daventry, I'd agree with C.Boylen. If you change the appearance of the pony, then you are admitting that there may be a fault in her eye. If you ignore it, then others will too.

To be honest, if the pony is super fabulous, then she'll find the right home. I really doubt there would be such a huge difference in her price. I, as a potential buyer, would be none too pleased to be shown a picture of the pony as a lead in, only then to be shown a pony with a flaw. It would make me question whether there are not other things you have covered up. I am not questioning your motives- which seem well intentioned, only that you could actually harm your potential sale by false representation.

[Jumpers21]

I'm going to completely avoid all the controversy here and not state an opinion. All I have to say is that if the owner or trainer wants a short term correction, I would use waterproof black eyeliner. It's made to be used on eyes, and it won't come off so easily.

[OnyxThePony]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
Typo!! 20=60
Oops. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

edit: another http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif the word Finals is missing.
Give us a break it went from -40 to +40 and I'm feeling a *litle* bit woozy! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[To the MAX]

I have a solution!
Just hand the pony over to me and I will show him how he is! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Seriously though, I think you should just leave the pony be. If it's as fancy as you say it is, it will do great. Even if you get bumped down a bit in the model, if you get good ribbons o/f then you'll be set anyway.

[Raven's Wing]

I own appys. They are such wonderful, incredible horses I hate to see them defiled to meet some arbitrary standard of conformity. Maybe why this hits me on such a gut level.

[CBoylen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OnyxThePony:
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
Typo!! 20=60
Oops. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

edit: another http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif the word Finals is missing.
Give us a break it went from -40 to +40 and I'm feeling a *litle* bit woozy! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh, you mean the pony finals auction?
That's not really a fair pricing indication of show ponies. For one thing, those ponies aren't actually out there showing and winning on any serious level. For another, an auction is not the best way to go about getting a good price for a green pony, or a made one for that matter. The pony finals auction is a great way to get pony breeder's stock to buyers, but a top class green pony, ready to step into the ring, with a good trainer representing it, is going to bring a much higher price, and a made one, winning, will bring a much higher price still.

[Daventry]

The top selling pony at the Pony Finals Auction was bought by a good friend of ours (they already have one of our ponies) and they paid $67,500 US for him.

And I agree with C. Boylen, that's not a good indication of what an average pony on the US hunter circuit sells for. I can name many that are priced in the $300k range and many that are priced in the $100k range just for a lease fee.

I don't know what that has to do with this topic but those are the facts!

[OnyxThePony]

C.Boylen. Yes, that is the measuring stick I was using as analagous to our situation.
The problem here- in the area where Daventry and I live, is that we have jokes of shows, are far (far) enough away from anywhere that prospective buyers are more reluctant to come... in a nutshell, it's harder to fairly represent a good pony, no matter how good, b/c we simply aren't- can't be- taking it and showing it off at prestigious American (even Canadian) shows.
Realistically, I don't think many ponies are selling for that kind of money out of this province.. if they are, it is certainly not being recorded anywhere.
There are exceptions- of course, but it's not the rule.

[Daventry]

I disagree with you completely Onyx. I do agree that our pony hunter circuit is not up to par with other areas but to say that we can't farily represent a good pony is not true. You must have been on our website and have seen what we've sold down to the States and how they've done. If marketed properly, there should be no difference.

I've only ever had two buyers come up to try out ponies, the rest have either bought over the phone or off of a video so it hasn't mattered where the pony originated from. We have taken our ponies State side to show, with our latest ending up 9th this year in the USEF standings and is also why he sold soon after that. We have another one that will be heading down to the Eastern US to be campaigned on the US circuit and sold and we expect to get quite a large sum for him. If you have the time and the money to market properly, you'll find success in whatever you do!

Little Tommy Tucker, Gimme A Kiss, Six Pence, etc., etc. have all sold out of Alberta for $30+k. Those were made ponies and, other than doing our regular Alberta circuit, they just showed out on the Coast. I can name countless green our just backed ponies that have sold out of Alberta in the $20-30k range and any of the really fancy, unbroke Alberta pony prospects are averaging $7-10k.

[sketcher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daventry:
It's not really any different than say, a paint horse with blue eyes being tattoed to prevent cancer and uveitis. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've never heard of tatooing preventing either of these. How could tatooing prevent cancer?

[doccer]

Even if tattooing was help for some sort of health problem (or 'to be' health problem) If it isn't hindering him physically at all, i just don't get it.

I'd agree with the posters who said that, let this pony speak for itself. If its everything (and more http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) that you're telling us, let thos $1 ribbons that were EARNED thru hard work do the talking http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If you're really that worried about being 'different' go with the liquid eye liner another poster suggested.

If a couple of 'beauty marks' around the eye is a deal breaker, i doubt you'd want to sell to that buyer anyway. If it was about perfection, 90% of us wouldn't bring home a ribbon any day of the week.

Carol and Doccer

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pocket Pony:
All I can say is poor pony. It is disgusting to me the lengths that people go to in the name of the almighty dollar and the $1 show ribbon. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen. Poor pony...........as if the way it jumps or moves is compromised by having a slightly mottled bit of skin. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

Yet another reason I'm glad I don't do hunters. Yeesh.....................http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daventry:
It's not really any different than say, a paint horse with blue eyes being tattoed to prevent cancer and uveitis. We just have different reasons for wanting it done (I'm not interested in perminantly tattooing though).

<span class="ev_code_PURPLE">And therein lies the difference. Tattooing for health reasons is one thing - illegally changing the color of a horse's skin to make it more saleable is quite another. Sort of like the Arab folks doing surgery to reduce the eyelids and make the eyes more prominent for halter horses, versus surgery for having a melanoma removed. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Not that I'm saying that you're doing or would do anything illegal - just one whopper of a rationalization, from where I sit. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif</span>

Is it in the name of the almighty dollar...when it will end up making the difference of a $15,000 or $50,000 pony, YES! I'm being honest. As long as the pony isn't put in any discomfort, the decision is going to be up the owner in regards of what they want to do.

<span class="ev_code_PURPLE">I'm curious - you say you don't want to do anything permanent, only color the skin for your website photos? Does this mean that the pony's skin color will revert back to normal at some point? If so, doesn't that feel just a bit like misrepresentation of a horse to you? I mean, what's going to happen if the coloring wears off, the mottling is again visible and that's when someone comes to see and try the pony? Are you just going to keep coloring it, or will you truthfully represent the pony at that time? Absolutely not trying to flame you, just really curious.</span>

I'm not interested in tattooing, only in a temporary solution. If you don't have any constructive ideas, please keep your opinions to yourself. And people wonder why most of us aren't interested in posting on here anymore. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_PURPLE">Again, not trying to flame you, but you have to admit that this is a pretty hot topic. When you ask for advice, opinions usually come gratis. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif And techically, you ARE asking advice to do something USEF considers illegal. You're an intelligent person - you MUST know that soliciting that sort of advice will result in controversy. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

JMO....................................http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif</span>

[Mav226]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> All I can say is poor pony. It is disgusting to me the lengths that people go to in the name of the almighty dollar and the $1 show ribbon <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry, but if this is how you feel, you need to take a closer look at the A circuit. Putting a little eye-liner on a pony is really not that big a deal. It goes on, and comes off. End of story. Tattooing is another issue entirely, but the OP already stated she didn't want that.

How about yanking the pony's hair out at the roots to get prettier braids? No one would flame her for pulling her pony's mane b/c that's just how it's done. Whatever you personally think of eye mottling, doesn't really matter.

The OP was asking for tricks so she could present 2 pics to a potential buyer. One saying, "here is the pony au natural" and "here is the pony with her eyes made up." She is letting the buyer decide what they want to do, and only offering pictures as a guideline.

I personally would recommend waterproof eye-liner. One of the thicker sticks if you can find it. Apply it with an eye-shaddow applicator. When you're finished the pics, just use eye-makeup remover applied w/ a Q-tip. Make sure that the area is washed thoroughly and you won't have any problems with infection.

Let's be honest--would you be flaming ME for putting eye-liner on? Of course not. It doesn't hurt and it just ads a little to the appearance. The people who get eye infections from it are usually the people that sleep w/ their makeup on http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Amid all of the false tailed, LTD ponies on soundness cocktails, I would think a little eye-makeup wouldn't be a huge concern.

[Box-of-Rox]

aight. I'm not reading beyond the first page because I feel like there's a trainwreck and I just want to give an unbiased answer. If the pony is very young, to be shown on the line (I thought it was to do pony hunters, but I have trouble reading for comprehension) it won't matter. It *might* get bumped down by a really stickler judge in a confo class, but unless it has splints the size of melons that you haven't told us about, I doubt that it will be effected (or that most buyers would care.)

If you want to color its eyes for a picture, so that you can say to a prospective buyer "Look, if it bothers you, you can fix it however you so choose and it will look like this" then it might be easier on you (and the pony) to just photoshop it. As long as you say that it was digitally altered, that's no different from saying "I lined her eyes with makeup or hoof polish"--you just need to be upfront, and say that you realize that it *might* bother real sticklers, that it ought not to be a problem, but if it really irks you, it's fixable.

[Feenikks]

This topic is absolutely crazy, yea ok lets paint in my horses eyes so no one will think I have an app.. and maybe Ill get a ribbon... just so silly and I only read the first post!

[Dalriada]

Or I might get disqualified for showing the pony with illegal modifications.


By showing a prospective client both before and after touch up photos you are literally telling that it is okay in the show world to "enhance" the pony's appearance through the use of makeup. Certainly not what I would want to build my reputation on.

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mav226:
Let's be honest--would you be flaming ME for putting eye-liner on? Of course not. It doesn't hurt and it just ads a little to the appearance.

<span class="ev_code_PURPLE">Yes, but it's not illegal for you to show in makeup, and it is for a pony or horse. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Not my rule, USEF's. And if I were a pony buyer and saw Daventry's PhotoShopped photo of this pony with no mottling and suddenly saw it mottled when I went to try it, I'd think as Cindeye commented and wonder what else the seller might be hiding. Doesn't reflect well on the seller at all, IMHO. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif</span>

Amid all of the false tailed, LTD ponies on soundness cocktails, I would think a little eye-makeup wouldn't be a huge concern. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_PURPLE">As neither false tails nor certain, approved-dose "soundness cocktails" are illegal, I think you're again comparing apples to oranges. One you can legally show with, the other you can't. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif</span>

[Magnolia]

Out of curiosity, why can't HJ people alter/enhance the colors of their horses/ use "make-up". It doesn't seem like the biggest deal in the world to cover up a superficial appearance issue, especially since it is mainly performance being judged. I understand for models, appearance counts, but I would think conformation would trump color and appearance in that arena. It is just a little showmanship....

[adhock]

My daughter catch rode Glimmer, a top medium pony hunter who was an appy with mottling around the eyes. This pony ended up #1 in the country and it wasn't because of her conformation (and certainly not due to cosmetics). The simple truth is that if they are great over fences, and okay in the hack, and don't have any BIG conformation flaws, they are just fine.

[headsup]

Daventry while I don't have a suggestion for the eyes I actually understood from your first post what you were trying to be able to show potential buyers. I don't however think the difference in $$ will be quite as huge as you think if he really does move and jump with the best.

[findeight]

I looked at some of the sale ponies with made reputations in the barn...a few have mottled eyes.

Sure hasn't affected their past show records and dam* sure is NOT reflected in the price they are asking, and will get.

I think you are blowing this all out of proportion.

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Magnolia:
Out of curiosity, why can't HJ people alter/enhance the colors of their horses/ use "make-up". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because USEF says they can't. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[jumpergal]

If I was a potential buyer looking at a big buck horse or pony, if it had the talent to get the job done, it wouldn't matter to me one bit if the horse had mottled eyes.

I also think that by putting a "before" and "after" picture of the pony on your website you're indicating that the mottled eyes are a big thing, whereas most buyers could probably care less.

I can't imagine that mottled eyes are going to lessen the prospective selling price.

[Magnolia]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Because USEF says they can't.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, phrased that wrong - why did the USEF make it illegal? It doesn't seem to be on the same level as using a tack pole to get a better jump or drugging. It just seems like an innocuous practice not worth having a rule about, especially since it is OK in breed shows, where appearance is even more important.

[ESG]

Um, I don't know of any breed shows where this is legal. Would you please reference the rule and what breed organizations allow their horses' appearances to be cosmetically altered?

I know that that ain't so in the Arabs. I forget the name of the brothers out west who consistently surgically altered their halter horses, but they apparently had been doing it for years and finally got caught and disciplined. Ears reshaped, eyelids surgically decreased to make eyes look more promienent, throatlatches liposuctioned - these guys did it all. B@s!ards.............................http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

And I know the Appy folks applaud color, as do the Paint and Pinto crowd. You can powder or cornstarch a white stocking, but you can't put black hoof polish on a white hoof. So again, which breed registries allow you to change your horse's appearance? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[Magnolia]

I thought you could use color (ie removable make up - not cutting ears and the like) for saddlebreds, arabs, and quarterhorses. You always see photos of arabs and QH with really enhanced shiny color around the eyes....

[vxf111]

I believe for APHA you can use color to enhance what is already there (putting bright white on a white stocking or painting an already black hoof black) but you can't alter the horse's color (painting a white spot on a chestnut body or coloring dark on top of a white spot). But I do feel like I have seen pictures of appies done up with color to alter their appearance. Don't know what kind of shows those were, they may not have been breed shows or recognized shows.

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:
I forget the name of the brothers out west who consistently surgically altered their halter horses, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even money on the Boggs.

[wtywmn4]

Why yes, the Boggs boys. A little nip & tuck doncha know. Throat latches nicely altered to slenderize the neck. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

It always amazes me these creatures still cart our behinds around!!

[Courtknee202]

Yes it was the Boggs. Sadly their farm is probably the biggest Arabian breeding operation in the U.S.

[Vanaheimr]

if you stuck on doing this dog grooming makes many products that are safe around eyes for those little poodles, you can get black white or brown, chalk or mascara sticks, do a search online for dog grooming magazines or go to www.petgroomer.com (http://www.petgroomer.com) and search from there.

your pony should be nice and safe with any grooming product.

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Magnolia:
I thought you could use color (ie removable make up - not cutting ears and the like) for saddlebreds, arabs, and quarterhorses. You always see photos of arabs and QH with really enhanced shiny color around the eyes.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not the Arabs--clear grooming products only.
You can get that icky shiny look with vaseline--don't need any dye in it.

(Wish Peter Cameron hadn't retired--he'd tell halter exhibitors to get the goop off--even the Big Hair guys would be frantically wiping the horse's face with a towel...)

[hasahorse]

"Glimmer, a top medium pony hunter who was an appy with mottling around the eyes."

Glimmer, however, is a gray, so the mottling is very subtle. I never realized that she was an appy until I saw her recording certificate. Glimmer, who is owned by my trainer and has the stall next to my horse Gypsy (who is so in love with her), is such a super star, and she knows it. I only wish I was small enough to still ride ponies. I would give anything to ride her just once.

She won the pony hunter classic at Indio last week, by the way.

[OverOxers]

I had to put my two cents in here. I've died white ponies tails white again, but i would never think about putting something around their eyes. In my opinion the pony wouldn't be looked down opun for mottled eyes. A lot of ponies are that way. And i've dealt with trying to sell a one eyed pony and it ain't easy. I would worry about infection and i would definately talk to a vet before doing anything. Bottum line is it is your pony and you will do what you want. But talk to the vet and make sure it's safe first.

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Magnolia:
I thought you could use color (ie removable make up - not cutting ears and the like) for saddlebreds, arabs, and quarterhorses. You always see photos of arabs and QH with really enhanced shiny color around the eyes.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The shiny around the eyes is either Vaseline or baby oil on black skin. No color alteration involved. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:
I forget the name of the brothers out west who consistently surgically altered their halter horses, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even money on the Boggs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup. That's them. I should have known you'd come up with the name. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Magnolia]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The shiny around the eyes is either Vaseline or baby oil on black skin. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Poor horses. I sure as heck would not want vaseline around my eyes. Lucky they don't get zits!

[ESG]

Mag! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Sing Mia Song]

Advertise the pony as is.

Add links to "famous appies" such as Toulouse and Scandal, both of whom were national champions with mottled eyes.

Don't cover it up--embrace it! make it the hottest new trend of 2005! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Little Indian]

out of curiosity, is this (http://www.bobboggs.com/stallions/justify/index.html) the lipo horse of the Bogg's?

[BLBGP]

Little Indian - if that's the one, it looks like a freak in this picture - http://www.bobboggs.com/stallions/index.html

Too much vaseline!

[Charismatic]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Little Indian:
out of curiosity, is http://www.bobboggs.com/stallions/justify/index.html the lipo horse of the Bogg's? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ugh.I wouldent be suprised.Poor horse.
I think this is why the arab industry has such a bad rep.Some of those horses look like they've had there faces smashed in with baseball bats.I perfer the more normal looking arabs-the ones with pretty slightly dished faces and natural throatlaches-those are probably the prettiest horses in the world.

Back on topic,if your going to show the people what she looked like originally then why risk hurting her?

[Ghazzu]

It was worse than lipo. IT was a modified Forsell's procedure--a surgery that actualy removes portions of the muscles on the underside of the neck.

[Charismatic]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ghazzu:
It was worse than lipo. IT was a modified Forsell's procedure--a surgery that actualy removes portions of the muscles on the underside of the neck. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It's probably a stupid question,but wouldent that alter the horses range of movement?
Thats just unbeliveably sick.

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Charismatic:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ghazzu:
It was worse than lipo. IT was a modified Forsell's procedure--a surgery that actualy removes portions of the muscles on the underside of the neck. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It's probably a stupid question,but wouldent that alter the horses range of movement?
Thats just unbeliveably sick. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


a. not appreciably.

b. it is a halter horse. It spends more time "posing" than moving.

[archieflies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I'm not interested in tattooing, only in a temporary solution. If you don't have any constructive ideas, please keep your opinions to yourself. And people wonder why most of us aren't interested in posting on here anymore. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've got something constructive to say: If you are contemplatibng doing something illegal, no matter how temporary, I wouldn't go talking about it on a public BB. And if you have advice on how to do something illegal, I wouldn't go offering it on a public BB. A lot of the people you may show against probably read this.

One more thing (now this is a real question)... if you think the eyes are the only thing making that big a difference in price, but you plan on offering buyers both before and after photos, why not just go clean yourself and suggest to them what can be done? Not many people will really pay and extra $35,000 because you showed them how to cover it up...

[archieflies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daventry:

Thanks for the comments but it's apparent I will have to go elsewhere for advice and that's OK. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In other words you'll have to go somewhere else to find people that will make you feel less guilty?

[buff4948]

If it's just for a picture why not just add color with PhotoShop?

[ESG]

You go, archieflies! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Funny how folks come on this board for advice and don't get the answers they want, and get pi$$y. Especially when it's advice that's enabling them to do something A) illegal, and B) unethical. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

[DutchOwner]

Well, I'm coming to this thread late...but, a few bits of advice:

A clear or black colored makeup will do the trick very well; I have used it on several horses to show in halter, and *none* of them have ever had any problems. You do not put it rightupclosetotheeye; you put it below and above the eye (for arabs) to highlight. My arab gelding loves his makeup; favorite part of the whole dressing up process...drops his head, relaxes his lip, etc. etc. The sure way to irritate eyes is to leave the makeup on for too long; be sure to take it off shortly after using it. Baby wipes work well for this.

As for the ethics...I don't see much of a difference between this and using show sheen to help the shine in a coat, or oiling hooves before going into the ring. If it is a USEF rule, but only exceptions are for arabs, I have seen an awful lot of quarter horse owners that are in violation. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[ESG]

Well, maybe it's just me, but I don't see how you can avoid putting makeup "rightupclosetotheeye" when it's the sclera you're trying to conceal! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif So by telling this to Daventry, you're basically saying, "Here's how to do this, but it may injure your horse's eye if you use it the way you intend".

Again, maybe it's just me, but I think that's irresponsible. And whether or not Arab, App, QH or any other exhibitors in any other breeds use USEF-illegal enhancers or cosmetics to effect an illegal change in a horse's appearance, it still isn't right. And I'd think more than once about dealing with someone who so blatantly flouts the rules. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

JMO..........................http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[DutchOwner]

Well, for one it is NOT illegal in arab classes, which is what I used it for; and I was only stating the proper way to use it. I have never ONCE gotten makeup in a horse's eye; you must apply it correctly...and that includes not putting it close enough to the eye that you risk getting it into the eye. I never said, well...put it up this close, but if you do, it will hurt the eye. I said that you need to not put it so close to the eye.

It is an enhancement; but no more of an enhancement than other "makeup", e.g. fake tails, showsheen, oil for hooves. I have never used it to conceal; only to highlight.



I was not advocating anything; only pointing out what I have used (legally and ethically) to procure a similar result. Stop crucifying this person; you are a lot more likely to effectuate a positive response if you just say "Hey, daventry, did you know that section yada yada yada of the rule book says that it isn't allowed? Didn't know if you did or not..." without adding that they are unethical, etc. I guess if I was being told I was doing something unethical, etc. etc. I would probably feel attacked and defensive too.

[ESG]

You were not changing the color of your horse's skin, so therefore your activity was not illegal. The fake tails, showsheen, etc. that you mentioned are not illegal. But what Daventry is asking help to do definitely is, according to USEF rules. And I'm sorry, but it's strictly MO that anyone who's advised that an intended activity is illegal and who insists upon participating in it is, at the very least, unethical. I, for one, would not be quite so inclined to buy a horse from Daventry (were I in the neighborhood http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) after having read this. If she's willing to cover up what she percieves as a flaw in what is apparently otherwise a really stellar pony, it makes one wonder what else she's willing to cover up in the name of the almighty dollar. Not saying she would, of course, but it does give one pause. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DutchOwner:
Well, for one it is NOT illegal in arab classes, which is what I used it for; o. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh yes it is.
The "Exception" to the rule prohibiting makeup to alter color or markings in the Arabian division is that, while other horses may have hoof or mane and tail color altered, Arabians may not.
It is a *more* restricitve rule, not less.
You may have gotten away with it, but it is not legal to use colored goo.

[diKecnadnuS]

If this was a HORSE I would understand the issue a lot better. But there are TONS of ponies out there that come in all different breeds, colors, markings, etc. I can name quite a few ponies that have consistently been in the top 10 in the country for the past 6-7 years that have bizarre looking features.

A good mover and a good jumper and a hunter dispossision (sp?) are really what matter (especially in the ponies... even though they have to model). My former large pony was always in the model ribbons but didn't have great conformation he had a long back and short legs and was your typical quarter horse yet he ended up winning models in VT and at the Biltmore.

I'd look at the ponies that go around every weekend winning and I'm sure you'll notice the breed variety in the pony rings is HUGE!!!

[DutchOwner]

Ghazzu...maybe I was not clear; I never used colored makeup, only clear. I re-read my post and see how it could be ambiguous. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DutchOwner:
Ghazzu...maybe I was not clear; I never used colored makeup, only clear. I re-read my post and see how it could be ambiguous. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah. You didn't strike me as the type to use that awful black goo.

[Sandy M]

That picture clearly shows white sclera, so what's this about "no white sclera?" Frankly, that looks like very mild mottling, and I've seen USEF area champion hunter ponies that are leopard, so why the fuss about mottling? Geesh.

(After 25 years of owning, showing and winning with Appies in open competition, I just personally get annoyed with H/J obsession over the need for "plain bay" horses (and ponies.))

[RHdobes]

This is the 2004 Arabian Horse National Halter Stallion. He, among others, were some of the horses handled by the Boggs and part of the controversy.

Some charges were proved; some not. The "alteration" on this horses was deemed "medical" not "cosmetic."

I have my own very strong opinion about the above but will leave it unsaid.

http://www.magnumpsyche.com/breeding/

[Courtknee202]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Little Indian:
out of curiosity, is http://www.bobboggs.com/stallions/justify/index.html the lipo horse of the Bogg's? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No that is not him. That photo is of S Justadream (the headshot) and of the sire who is the horse in question (rearing horse). Justify is one of his sons who is on a winning streak himself despite have terrible legs IMO.

The link RHdobes posted is the stallion in question. Not my type of horse at all. S Justadream however is a BEAUTIFUL mare and I'd love to be able to own her. The picture on Justifys page does her no justice.

[ESG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RHdobes:
This is the 2004 Arabian Horse National Halter Stallion. He, among others, were some of the horses handled by the Boggs and part of the controversy.

Some charges were proved; some not. The "alteration" on this horses was deemed "medical" not "cosmetic."

I have my own very strong opinion about the above but will leave it unsaid.

http://www.magnumpsyche.com/breeding/ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


<span class="ev_code_PURPLE">Good thing he's a halter horse. From what little I can see of his conformation, he doesn't look like much of an under saddle prospect. At least, nothing I'd care to ride.........................</span> http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

[BLBGP]

Ignorant question - do they shave the horse's muzzle and eye area? It looks completely bald! That can't be natural....

[DutchOwner]

BLBGP, generally, yes. It is to highlight the ideal arab face...large, expressive, dark eyes, with a wide forehead, tapering down to a "teacup" muzzle with large nostrils. The shaving, combined with the use of a clear makeup on the arab's black skin, makes these characteristics more prominent.

[Dalriada]

Balding is prohibited in the Arab showring, ruling as of 200? (?? can go back and look it up if anyone wants).

However nothing is done or said against balding for photos. Often what we see a horse looking like in an advertisement is using illegal. Horse's in the showring must show no recent evidence of balding aka hair must be growing in on the previously balded area.

[DutchOwner]

Wow...I did not know that. I haven't shown in arab halter for a few years, so, am a bit behind the times. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Do you know what they consider to be "not balding?" I mean, you could use a pretty close blade and get similar results; and, what was the purpose of the rule? I'm curious now. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Dalriada]

Quoting EC rulebook on Arabians:

Article B1303 General
4. ....The use of glitter on or in the mane, tail or hooves is prohibited. Any change of colour or markings is prohibited. Only clear grooming materials are allowed on hide and hair. ...

Chapter 14: Breeding/In-Hand
Article B1402 Conduct and Specifications
6. Additional causes for mandartory elimination from the arena are"
a) removal of eyelashes
b) changing the natural colour of the mane and/or tail
c) balding the area around the eyes or proximal to the muzzle and nostrils.
A judge may penalize an entry with excessive amounts of oil, grease or other substances so as to cause an unnatural appearance.


Year of rule change was 2003. Sorry can't remember what the argument was at Convention level but the rule did pass and is being enforced in the showring.

Edited to add: Balding is considered to be the removal of hair down to skin. So you can clip as close as you want provided the judge and steward can see coloured hair.

[bunnybums]

Dog show people have eyeliner. If you can find a show supply catalog (Cherrybrook for one) they will have it, or go to a big dog show and visit a vendor. They are little sticks of eyeliner (muzzle liner, etc) in different colors. Look like crayons. BTW it is illegal to "color" dogs too.

[Windsor]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
A judge may penalize an entry with excessive amounts of oil, grease or other substances so as to cause an unnatural appearance. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or they may hand it a national championship! Whichever.

[Hasty]

I did not read the whole thread, but if I remember correctly a very famous pony, "Himself The Elf" had the same type eye markings....it clearly did not cause a problem for him!!!!

[poltroon]

Why USEF doesn't allow markings/color changes (my guesses):

1. Such things can be used to hide/fraudulently represent a horse's identity

2. In general, products that change color are not good for the horse - neutral at best and harmful at worst.

I would worry that applying a cosmetic to an eye that had to be applied with anything other than a large rag swipe could cause me to slip (or the horse to jump) and damage the eye surface. I don't clip near the eyes for the same reason.

[sketcher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:
I forget the name of the brothers out west who consistently surgically altered their halter horses, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even money on the Boggs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why doesn't this suprise me?

[RHdobes]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Windsor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
A judge may penalize an entry with excessive amounts of oil, grease or other substances so as to cause an unnatural appearance. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or they may hand it a national championship! Whichever. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

HAH!!

[Lord Helpus]

First, let me introduce myself:

I am a felon (at least according to findeight I am). I religiously use Shapleys hair color on George's legs to hide his pin firing and scars. Every show. I don't leave home without it. And if I did, I would use shoe polish.

I admit it. I cheat. So far no one has protested me for that or for dying his tail. I guess I lived a charmed life.

If everyone is so upset at the idea of covering up an appy's facial markings so that the judges aren't prejudiced against the horse, did you all write your congressmen and AHSA representatives, to say nothing of the USET, when we had an Appy represent the US of A in dressage with a dyed face because of mottling on his nose?

Can someone help me out with the horse's name? It begins with an M and is a short name. This story was written up in Practical Horseman years ago and pictures with and without the nose makeup were included in the article.

People, give it a rest. Horses enter the ring every day with colorant on to hide something. Look at C. Boylen! She paints a huge white splotch on her horse's butt to make it look really neat!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif [&lt;--- to all you colorant Nazi's, that was a joke...]

[AtFirstSight]

I didnt read though all these, but what about the Shapley's show touch up? I'm not sure if it can go around they eye or not, but I think they have a website.