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Velvet
Jun. 8, 2011, 09:49 AM
Interesting ideas. What do you guys think?

http://chronofhorse.com/article/rubbing-bottles

I think it needs a new title (the article) for a start. :lol:

On the showing and dividing the divisions I think that one step further and having them not divided by Ammie status at all would work, if using her system. It would level the playing field. I also like the rider coefficient getting more valuable as you go up the levels, and yet again, I've seen judges who then just look for a pretty position and forget to associate it with effectiveness. Not sure how well that would work, but it might be something to try.

catosis
Jun. 8, 2011, 10:40 AM
Aside from the title needing a little more tact (hey, it could be a lot worse than it is!), I think Lauren had great ideas. One thing that really bothers me, though, is the word 'amateur'. To me, it's connotation suggests that non-professional riders are less competent, which in many cases is false.

On another note, she is so right about branching away from typical elevator music in freestyles. Our sport is fun, let's not act like it isn't!

dwblover
Jun. 8, 2011, 10:50 AM
I think it is a super article and the title calls attention to it. I LOVE the idea of dividing classes like they do at the BLMs. I ride in the open divisions at USDF shows because I teach w/t lessons to beginners. That means I'm up against GP riders on young (but amazing) client horses. Yes, I am riding for my own percentage and I don't care if I win or not, but it would be nice to have a glimmer of hope for the placings, LOL!

Pony Fixer
Jun. 8, 2011, 11:33 AM
Having shown the BLMs many times, I think this system works well. There are "lesser" and "greater" pros, ammies, and Jr/YR within each division, although in a perfect world maybe it would be Open A/B, Ammy A/B, and Jr/YR A/B--but that doubles the number of classes, which is likely not ideal or feasible financially for the shows.

I have no problem with the rider coefficients increasing over time either. At my first show using the new rider system, I had straight 7s, except for one where I got a 6 for effectiveness of aids (that would be when it was clear my half halt didn't come through right in front of the judge, LOL). It helps to pinpoint what the judge did/did not like about my riding. As the levels go up, you BEST have your "riding" house in order, so it should be "easy" points if you are doing your homework and an appropriate ding when you haven't.

I also agree about the freestyles. I did my "Michael Jackson" freestyle, complete with lyrics, and also only had one judge comment on not liking it. I think if we make that more fun, more interesting, etc. it might increase MFS participation, audience numbers and overall increased interest in dressage. I am struggling with music choices for my next MFS--soundtracks are largely boring or overdone, and I can't find anything interesting/spicy that matches my horse's gaits. Sigh.

suzy
Jun. 8, 2011, 01:35 PM
One thing that really bothers me, though, is the word 'amateur'. To me, it's connotation suggests that non-professional riders are less competent, which in many cases is false.


If you reread the article, you will see that she makes that point quite well in this paragraph:

“This is a terrific system. There are amateur riders out there who've shown extensively, who've made FEI horses, who've been there and done that. I think it's more fair that they show against me, instead of against my students who are riding at first level for the first time, or what have you. And in the same line, I think the wonderful professional riders who specialize in starting greenies and then selling them, or teaching beginner riders to post on the correct diagonal, and who've never seen a second level test in their lives shouldn't be thrown in the deep end.”

dressagediosa
Jun. 8, 2011, 01:46 PM
Thanks, guys!

(And title writing is my absolute LEAST favorite part of this blogging thing! I suck at it!)

suzy
Jun. 8, 2011, 02:10 PM
:lol: Definitely need a different title. I admit that I would not have read the article based on its title if Velvet hadn't provided the link and given me a clue as to the content. Try to say something in the title that at least hints at the content. But that aside, lots of good information, and I loved what you said about freestyle music. Personally, I want music that makes me tap my foot as I'm watching the ride.

One suggestion for a title change:

"Thoughts on How to Improve Dressage Competitions"

Simple and to the point. Right away I have a clue about what I am about to read.

SGray
Jun. 8, 2011, 02:35 PM
Assertions were made -- folks asked for facts to back them up -- were told "we are judges, we know" -- so the year's scores were gathered and analyzed using statistical analysis (by experts in the field) -- low and behold the facts belied the judges' perceptions

Insisting that science should trump anecdote is not "getting one's knickers in a twist"

islgrl
Jun. 8, 2011, 02:43 PM
I think it is a super article and the title calls attention to it. I LOVE the idea of dividing classes like they do at the BLMs. I ride in the open divisions at USDF shows because I teach w/t lessons to beginners. That means I'm up against GP riders on young (but amazing) client horses. Yes, I am riding for my own percentage and I don't care if I win or not, but it would be nice to have a glimmer of hope for the placings, LOL!

I read the article and looked for a way to comment. Had I found it I would have written exactly what is quoted above.

ACP
Jun. 8, 2011, 04:39 PM
I think it is a super article and the title calls attention to it. I LOVE the idea of dividing classes like they do at the BLMs. I ride in the open divisions at USDF shows because I teach w/t lessons to beginners. That means I'm up against GP riders on young (but amazing) client horses. Yes, I am riding for my own percentage and I don't care if I win or not, but it would be nice to have a glimmer of hope for the placings, LOL!

EXACTLY!

monstrpony
Jun. 8, 2011, 04:46 PM
:lol: Definitely need a different title. I admit that I would not have read the article based on its title if Velvet hadn't provided the link and given me a clue as to the content. Try to say something in the title that at least hints at the content. But that aside, lots of good information, and I loved what you said about freestyle music. Personally, I want music that makes me tap my foot as I'm watching the ride.

One suggestion for a title change:

"Thoughts on How to Improve Dressage Competitions"

Simple and to the point. Right away I have a clue about what I am about to read.

Had it been an article, it probably would have had a more transparent title.

It's part of an on-going blog. A blog that I read regularly because I really like her writing and also like most of what she says. I like the catchy titles, and like the little mystery of what the particular blog entry is actually going to be about. I expect it, because it's her blog, and she always does this in it.

I don't think she should change her blog style because you happened to stumble on one of her entries one day and it wasn't immediately clear to you what she was writing about.

Just sayin'

Velvet
Jun. 8, 2011, 04:51 PM
Had it been an article, it probably would have had a more transparent title.

It's part of an on-going blog. A blog that I read regularly because I really like her writing and also like most of what she says. I like the catchy titles, and like the little mystery of what the particular blog entry is actually going to be about. I expect it, because it's her blog, and she always does this in it.

I don't think she should change her blog style because you happened to stumble on one of her entries one day and it wasn't immediately clear to you what she was writing about.

Just sayin'

Admit it. You just like it because it sounds dirty!! :lol:

catosis
Jun. 8, 2011, 05:06 PM
If you reread the article, you will see that she makes that point quite well in this paragraph:


I agree with L. Sprieser, that was just a general comment on the term. Perhaps a change in terminology is in order?

netg
Jun. 8, 2011, 05:25 PM
Admit it. You just like it because it sounds dirty!! :lol:

I'm way too Disney... I just had the Aladdin theme going through my head.

SillyHorse
Jun. 8, 2011, 07:01 PM
Aside from the title needing a little more tact (hey, it could be a lot worse than it is!), I think Lauren had great ideas. One thing that really bothers me, though, is the word 'amateur'. To me, it's connotation suggests that non-professional riders are less competent, which in many cases is false.

If you reread the article, you will see that she makes that point quite well in this paragraph:

“This is a terrific system. There are amateur riders out there who've shown extensively, who've made FEI horses, who've been there and done that. I think it's more fair that they show against me, instead of against my students who are riding at first level for the first time, or what have you. And in the same line, I think the wonderful professional riders who specialize in starting greenies and then selling them, or teaching beginner riders to post on the correct diagonal, and who've never seen a second level test in their lives shouldn't be thrown in the deep end.”


I agree with L. Sprieser, that was just a general comment on the term. Perhaps a change in terminology is in order?
Amateur means what it means. What would you suggest changing it to? :confused:

BEARCAT
Jun. 8, 2011, 07:35 PM
Don't genies live in lamps??

monstrpony
Jun. 8, 2011, 09:12 PM
Don't genies live in lamps??

Desert genies live in lamps, beach bum genies live in bottles?

LarkspurCO
Jun. 9, 2011, 12:24 AM
I completely agree about the music. I cannot stand listening to flouncy elevator music.

As for increasing rider coefficients, I'm not sure I agree. The movement scores cannot be earned without having effective aids and harmony, so I don't see rider scores needing to be distinguished from the other scores.

I guess it's nice to get a good score for position even if you can't ride well, or have a bad ride, but I think the actual riding part is more important.

J-Lu
Jun. 10, 2011, 11:00 PM
Assertions were made -- folks asked for facts to back them up -- were told "we are judges, we know" -- so the year's scores were gathered and analyzed using statistical analysis (by experts in the field) -- low and behold the facts belied the judges' perceptions

Insisting that science should trump anecdote is not "getting one's knickers in a twist"

Agreed!

While I like the spirit of the blog, I think the problem is more complicated than meets the eye. There are plenty of pros and amateurs riding schoolmasters above their riding level for career or award accolades, and this confounds Lauren's proposal. This may not be as evident where Lauren is located but it is evident elsewhere.

Yes, I would hate to ride against the wealthy amateur who has been to Europe with her nice horses and is basically a pro but doesn't need the income so isn't a pro. But this usually isn't the case in the regions I have ridden in (I move alot). *Most* pros ride 5+ horses a day and *most* amateurs ride 1 horse per day. I think this is the fairest division. Lets not forget that *anyone* can enter the OPEN classes, that's why they're "open", but only non-professionals can enter the amateur classes. I'd hope that the wealthy, talented amateur who takes her well-bred horses to Europe for training but doesn't need to have an income so technically isn't a "pro" would opt to ride against the professionals in the open division.

I don't think the people who call themselves "pros" who haven't ridden higher than second level should ride against the typical amateur at the lower levels. Even a Jumper convert will have a much much more solid seat than the average lower level amateur with a full-time job unrelated to horses. They shouldn't show against each other in my opinion.

J.

quietann
Jun. 11, 2011, 12:05 PM
I've been a fan of Lauren's since before I got into dressage, back when she was a member of a social-networking site group. As a very low-level AA rerider, can't comment a lot on her judging article (though I do like her proposed way of dividing classes), but her previous blog entry about her discussions with the RJ Classics folks is also great: http://chronofhorse.com/article/fashion-forward